与克里斯·帕拉迪诺共建创新之城_e.075

《从红鼠到独角兽》。本节目聚焦于生物科技与医疗设备背后的科学家们。通过人物故事，我希望《从实验室到独角兽》能展现一个理念如何从实验室萌芽，最终成为拯救生命的疗法或帮助病患的产品的蜕变历程。

Red Rats to Unicorns. This show is all about the people behind the science of biotechnology and medical devices. Through the stories of the people, I hope that Lab Rats to Unicorns is able to describe the transform process of, you know, how an idea starts in the lab and eventually becomes a lifesaving treatment or a product that that helps patients with diseases.

生命拯救生命。

Life life lifesaving.

准备好迎接一场精彩对话吧。今天我们邀请到新不伦瑞克开发公司（简称DevCo）总裁克里斯托弗·帕拉迪诺。自1994年掌舵以来，克里斯主导了超过35亿美元的开发项目，从住宅商业空间到大型学术医疗机构，彻底改变了新不伦瑞克及周边地区。他一直是推动罗格斯大学等公私合作项目的核心力量。

Well, get ready for a great conversation. Today, we're joined by Christopher Paladino. He's the president of the New Brunswick Development Corporation or better known as DevCo. Since taking the helm in 1994, Chris has overseen more than 3,500,000,000.0 in development projects that have transformed New Brunswick and beyond, ranging from residential and commercial spaces to major academic and health care institutions. He's been a driving force behind public and private partnerships like the one in place with Rutgers University and across New Brunswick and others.

他的远见促成了新不伦瑞克表演艺术中心、杰克与谢丽尔·莫里斯癌症中心等雄心勃勃的项目，以及如今与罗格斯大学、普林斯顿大学、诺基亚贝尔实验室等机构合作的16亿美元医疗创新中心Helix NJ。多数人将克里斯视为新泽西新不伦瑞克的改造者。克里斯，欢迎来到节目。

And his vision has helped shape ambitious projects like the New Brunswick Performing Arts Center, the Jack and Cheryl Morris Cancer Center, and now Helix NJ, a $1,600,000,000 hub for health and life sciences innovation in partnership with Rutgers, Princeton, Nokia Bell Labs, the New Jersey Economic Development Authority, and Portal Innovations. You know, most people know Chris as the man who's transformed New Brunswick, New Jersey. So, Chris, welcome to the show.

谢谢，很荣幸参与。你那个背景布置真不错，在街头做播客还能这么安静——

Thank you. It's great to be here. I love your background there. It's pretty quiet for you doing this podcast out on the street like that with all

对吧？我特意让施工队安静一两个小时。希望没打扰，多谢配合。

the Right. I've asked them to keep it down. I've asked I've asked the construction crew to keep it down just for an hour or so. I hope that's okay. Appreciate it.

克里斯，我们直接进入主题吧。听众们最想了解的是，是什么契机让你开启这段职业旅程？从学校毕业后，是什么指引你走上这条最终成就今日的道路？

Well, you know, let's jump in Chris. You know, what what I think our listeners would like to learn about you is, you know, kind of what what got you started on the journey in the first place? Kind of what what led you to the career path, you know, coming out of school and kind of aiming in a direction where you began, you know, the journey that ultimately, you know, landed landed you here?

嗯，你知道的，意外总会发生。我常对学生们说，在大学教书时有机会就要告诉他们，必须时刻关注整个领域，因为你不该错过机遇。我在新布朗斯维克的罗格斯大学读书，后来又在罗格斯法学院就读，原以为自己会按部就班地成为一家枯燥大型律所的诉讼律师。但机缘巧合——我的一位法学教授成了新泽西州长吉姆·弗洛里奥，于是我去他的顾问办公室工作了几年。我妻子和我当时简直是经济自杀。

Well, you know, accidents happen. And I always tell students when I, have the opportunity to to teach in the university, that you really have to always, like, look at the whole field because you don't wanna pass up opportunities. I, you know, I went to school here in New Brunswick at Rutgers and went to law school at Rutgers and thought I was on a, you know, direct career path to be a litigator, in a boring, big law firm, and, opportunity happens. One of my law school professors became the governor of New Jersey, governor Jim Florio, And I went to work in his counsel's office for a couple of years. My wife we committed economic suicide.

那时我和妻子刚有了孩子。她离开大型律所，我则接受了政府工作。原本我们有两份好工作，结果变成了一份半。就在我们快花光积蓄时，我得到了去新泽西经济发展局担任副局长的机会，薪资略有提升，开始参与大型房地产项目。那时我们一心想把企业从纽约挖到泽西城。

My wife and I had a baby. She left a big law firm, and I took a government job. So we had two good jobs, and then we got then we ended up with a half one. And just as we were running out of money, I had the opportunity to come over and become the deputy director of the New Jersey Economic Development Authority, which I was able to get a little bit of a pay raise, and started working on large real estate projects. So at that point, we were just trying to steal companies from New York City and bring them to Jersey City.

不知是幸运还是不幸——毕竟你永远不知道下一个机会在哪里——弗洛里奥州长连任失败，我正准备重回法律界。现任DevCo主席、曾任新泽西州商业部长的乔治·佐芬格找到我说：‘我刚接手这家银行，强生公司的人想重启DevCo，我们要不要试一年？’

Unfortunately or fortunately, because, again, you never know where the next opportunity is gonna come. Governor Florio lost his reelection, and I was going back to practice law. And, George Zofinger, who's the chairman of DevCo now and who had been the secretary of commerce in New Brunswick in in New Jersey, said, hey. You know, I took over this bank, and I just talked to the guys from Johnson and Johnson, and they wanna resurrect DevCo. And why don't we do this for a year?

我们审视后发现情况很糟：两年没有领导层，银行里只有10万美元存款，却背着600万美元无担保债务。他说：‘在盲人谷里，独眼人就能称王。’

And we kinda you know, we looked at it, and it was in pretty dire shape. It had not had any leadership for about two years. We actually had a $100,000 in the bank and $6,000,000 of unsecured debt. And he said, look. You know, it's sometime the one eyed man in the Valley Of The Blind is king.

或许我们能扭转局面。其实我大学时就抗议过DevCo，对它早有了解。回家告诉妻子先干一年再找正经工作。结果一年前她还问我：‘你的正经工作呢？’

Maybe we can make something out of this. And, of course, I'd I'd known about DevCo because I had protested against DevCo when I had been in college. And I went home, told my wife I was gonna do this for a year and then I was gonna get a real job. Probably about a year ago, my wife said to me, hey. You know, you didn't get the real job yet?

但这事业让人上瘾。我们从10万资金和600万债务起步，如今刚完成9亿美元的大楼建设，明年还将启动近20亿的新项目——确实有点令人沉迷。

But it became very it became addictive. And we went on to to to take what was a 100,000 and $6,000,000 of unsecured debt. And today, we have we just finished up a $900,000,000 building. And by the next year, we'll have about close to $2,000,000,000 in additional work in the ground. And it's been a little bit of addictive.

让人欲罢不能。就这样一路向前，三十多年光阴转瞬即逝。

Addicting. So you just keep on going, so quickly thirty something years passes very fast.

你所描述的一切，正是一个真正企业家、冒险者的标志，一个创造者，将想法变为现实的过程。虽然要经历种种考验、磨难和必须做出的取舍，才能走完这段令人着迷的旅程。你早期提到过其中一些经历，能否更深入地谈谈Devco的架构？我听说它是一家非营利性房地产开发公司，能否详细说明它在生态系统中的角色，以及如何利用其场所营造能力来产生你所实现的影响力？

Everything you described, you know, are the markings of a true entrepreneur, a risk taker, you know, a a creator, you know, bringing something to life and, you know, the but the trials and tribulations and the trade offs that you make, you know, in pursuing that addictive journey. You know, you've talked about a few of them early on and maybe dive a little bit deeper into the way that, you know, Devco is set up and, know, it I've heard described as it's a not for profit real estate development firm, but maybe can you dive a little bit deeper into its role in the ecosystem and how it uses, you know, its place making capacity to to make the impact that you've been able to make?

嗯，这很有趣。我们虽然是非营利组织，但我常说'非营利'意味着我不能保留赚到的钱，所以我自己也捞不到好处。我们实际上建立了一种独特的混合模式——兼具企业家精神和房地产运营的骨架，但核心在于建立合作伙伴关系。在我的办公室就能看到强生CEO、罗格斯大学校长、新泽西最大医疗系统负责人的办公地点，还有市政厅和县政府。我们很早就开始构建这些关系，真正理解各方在政策层面的目标，然后帮助他们实现。

Well, you know, it's it's interesting. You know, we're a not for profit, but I basically say we're a not for profit, so I don't get to keep the money that we make, so I don't get a beach ass out of it. We really have put, you know, in place a unique blend of kind of being an entrepreneur, real real estate, you know, basically, bones of of of running a real estate business. But, primarily, the important thing we do is create partnerships. And we create partnerships in a city that where from my office, I can see where the CEO of Johnson and Johnson works, the president of Rutgers, and the president of of the largest hospital system in New Jersey and city hall and the county, and really building those relationships very early on and truly understanding where other people want to go from a policy standpoint and then helping them get there.

大型高校、企业、医院有时会'只见树木不见森林'。他们可能急需3万平方英尺空间，或要解决停车难题。但当把不同群体的需求整合起来，就像做煎蛋卷——单独食材或许平淡无奇，组合起来却能成就美味。

You know, large universities, large corporations, hospitals sometime don't really see the forest through the trees. So they may need, you know, they need 30,000 square feet or they need 50,000 square feet or they need to solve a parking problem. But when you put together a variety of people's challenges, it's kinda like making an omelet. The ingredients may not be that memorable, but together they kinda turn into something.

嗯。克里斯，带我们回顾一下过去吧。你提到过起步阶段的艰难岁月，能否谈谈新不伦瑞克市最初的情况？回忆事情发端之处，这将为后续的影响力故事奠定基础。

Mhmm. Well, Chris, you know, take us back in time a little bit. You know, you you talked about, you know, the humble beginnings, you know, as you got going. Talk a little bit about the conditions in New Brunswick when you got started and maybe reflect on, you know, where where things began. And you know, that will I think set the stage for, you know, the impact, you know, thereafter.

新不伦瑞克和许多东北部城市一样经历了六十年代的变迁。我成长的地方离现在办公室大概八英里，那时这里曾是宇宙中心——人们来这儿做礼拜、看病求医。

You know, New Brunswick was like many other Northeast cities. They kinda went through the sixties. When I grew up, and I'd grew up, you know, maybe eight miles from where my office is, you know, New Brunswick was like the center of the universe. You came here to go to church. You came to go to the doctor.

来买上学穿的鞋子。但六十年代开始变化，出现人口外流，郊区购物中心兴起。不过从根本上看，新不伦瑞克的特别之处在于：罗格斯大学自1766年就扎根于此，他们从未考虑搬迁。

You came to get your school shoes. And in the sixties, that started to change. There was kind of an out migration. There was, you know, malls being built in the suburbs. But what really made New Brunswick different from, you know, a bone standpoint is that Rutgers had been here since 1766, and they weren't going anywhere.

嗯。虽然他们当时也在河对岸的郊区发展。这里作为郡政府所在地，拥有附设医学院的大型医院。而强生公司做出了英勇决定——不像新泽西其他大企业那样迁往郊区，选择留在这里。

Mhmm. Although they were kind of developing across the river of the suburbs. It was the county seat. There was a a large hospital with a medical school. And Johnson and Johnson, someone made a heroic decision not to follow every other major corporation in New Jersey to the suburbs, and they decided to stay here.

要知道，当时确实有一些很好的基础。有趣的是，人们总说自从你来了之后变化很大。回顾16岁Demco创立时，再到我接手期间新不伦瑞克的变化，可以说我们在很多方面都是站在巨人的肩膀上。我们一开始就占据了先机。

So there was, you know, there were some really good bones. It's funny because, you know, people say, well, when you got here, so much has changed. You know, I look back at being 16 years old when Demco was started and what New Brunswick changed from that period of time for to when I took over. So in many ways, we actually kinda stood on the shoulders of giants. You know, we had a running head start.

但在这里的这段时间里，真正改变的是街道的节奏。这里如今24小时都充满活力。我工作地点七个街区范围内现在住着5000人，每年有20万人来到我们的文化区——要么去三家剧院，要么入住我们建造的酒店和会议中心。罗格斯大学的学生住在中央商务区，他们全天候都在这里往来穿梭。

But in the time that we've been here, look, five the what's the thing that really changes is is the tempo of the street. It's a different place twenty four hours a day. There are 5,000 people who live now within seven blocks of where I work. There's 200,000 people who come to our cultural district, either go to the three theaters or stay at the hotel and conference center that we built. Rutgers students live in the Central Business District, they're coming and going of all hours of the day.

所以我认为这座城市的节奏已经改变了，它变得更具吸引力。你必须顺势而为。90年代末到21世纪初，人们开始重新向城市迁移，城市又变得时髦起来，而我们成功抓住了这个机会。

So I think the tempo of the city has changed. It's made it much more desirable. And, look, you gotta you know, you have to kind of ride the wave. And, you know, during the early late nineties, early two thousands, there started to become a a migration back to cities. Cities became kind of hip again, and we were able to take advantage of that.

人们在这里生活工作，这里已经成为一个充满活力的地方。

So people live here, they work here, and it's you know, it's become an exciting place.

谈谈当下和周边地区吧。从创新角度看新泽西，可以追溯历史根基——这个地区曾是全美创新的引擎，从托马斯·爱迪生时代开始，到后来著名的贝尔实验室，那些基于学术创新又解决实际问题、创造机遇、提升生活质量、真正推动美国经济发展的发明创造。更不用说这里强大的制药产业——这些创新历史元素汇聚时能产生巨大影响，请谈谈这方面。

Talk a little bit about present day and also, you know, just the surrounding region. You know, when I think New Jersey from the innovation perspective, you know, you can go back in time and think about the roots, you know, the it was really kind of the engine behind innovation for the whole United States when you think about what's come out of the region dating back to Thomas Edison and then thereafter the vaunted Bell Labs and all the inventions that have come out of that that kind of built on both academic innovation, but then for solving problems and creating opportunities and improving quality of life and really powering the whole US economy, one could argue, you know, came out of, you know, some of the things were happening at Bell Labs when you think about the computer revolution and all those things. Can you maybe just describe some of those raw ingredients that exist and and that doesn't even account the big pharma presence there that we can get into in a few minutes, but just this history of innovation and its potential for when coming together can create, you know, massive impact. Talk a little bit about that.

有些历史确实不该遗忘，因为它们总能带来启发。1885年，约翰逊兄弟乘坐的火车在费城和纽约之间停靠加水（当时还是蒸汽机车），他们看中了今天Helix所在地的一间旧墙纸工厂。

You know, in some time, you really shouldn't forget history because it can certainly be inspirational. The Johnson brothers, I think, in 1885, you know, stopped their train. Their train stopped here on their way between Philadelphia and New York to take on water. It was a steam engine. And there was an old wallpaper factory for sale, which is basically on the site of the Helix today.

他们租下那里创立了强生公司，认为这里两城往来便利。如今我们建造Helix的地方，一个街区外就是当年约翰逊兄弟与托马斯·爱迪生在弗雷德·基尔默药房午餐柜台讨论改进制造工艺的旧址。发明电灯泡的门洛帕克实验室距此仅五六英里。曾获诺贝尔奖的罗格斯大学瓦克斯曼博士，还有爱因斯坦都常在新不伦瑞克的街道上散步。

And they rented it, and that's where they started Johnson and Johnson because they thought it was convenient between those two cities. A block from where we're building the Helix now, the Johnson brothers used to sit at Fred Kilmer's in in their pharmacy at the lunch counter with Thomas Edison. And they used to talk about manufacturing and how they could kind of improve their manufacturing. Thomas Edison, you know, Menlo Park, where the light bulb was actually refined, was is, like, four or five miles from here. You know, doctor Waxman, who won a Nobel Prize when he was at Rutgers and Albert Einstein used to kinda, like, walk the streets of New Brunswick.

嗯，所以，你知道，我们离阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦生活、学习、教学和研究的普林斯顿高等研究院大约有14英里。这里有着深厚的根基，罗格斯大学在那段时期产出了大量研究成果。我们距离普林斯顿12英里，那里也诞生了许多重要工作。虽然我们稍后可能会讨论制药业务。

Mhmm. So, you know, we're not we're probably 14 miles from where where where where Albert Einstein lived and studied and and taught at the and researched at the Center for Advanced Study at Princeton. So there's some really great roots here, and a tremendous amount of research has come out of Rutgers over that period of time. We're 12 miles from from Princeton, the amount of work that's come from there. And, you know, although we'll probably, you know, talk about it in a bit about about the pharma business.

你知道，强生公司在南方拥有自己的工厂。这里有一条建于十八世纪的运河，他们在运河边建厂，将棉花运来，整个二十世纪都在这里生产绷带。所以这里一直在变化。

You know, Johnson and Johnson had their own mills in the South. There's a canal that was built here in the seventeen hundreds. They built their factories on the canal. They brought the the the cotton up, and they were making bandages here all throughout the the the twentieth century. So it was a and and that was always changing.

明白吗？创可贴、婴儿爽身粉、洗发水都是在这里研发的。如果说有什么历史渊源，我认为我们与你合作的工作，以及与其他核心伙伴的合作，某种程度上是在重拾并试图点燃那种精神，让它保持活力。要知道，我们的一个优势是新泽西州的人均博士和工程师数量全球最高，其中许多人集中在米德尔塞克斯县。

You know? The Band Aid, baby powder, shampoo. It was all developed here. So if if if there's a history to it, and I think what we have tried to do with the work we're doing with you and the work we're doing with our other core partners is kinda recapture and trying to ignite that spirit and keeping it alive. Know, one of the things that we have as an advantage, there are more PhDs and engineers living per capita in New Jersey than anywhere else in the world, and a lot of them are centered here in Middlesex County.

每年从罗格斯大学毕业的计算机科学家、生物学家和化学家数量可观，而我们能捕捉这种精神至关重要。

You know, the amount of computer scientists and biologists and chemists that graduate from Rutgers every year, and us to be able to kinda capture that spirit is is is critical.

看看你们今天的作为，想想Helix NJ和这个枢纽。思考如何转化那些基于历史和地区DNA的要素，并开始考虑今天需要哪些组件来创造类似条件。某种意义上，有机会在现代重现托马斯·爱迪生与强生兄弟比邻的场景——想想当今的对应人物——关键在于连接这些点，创造有目的的偶然环境。或许你可以谈谈推动这个项目落地获批的愿景。我猜这很大程度上是对墨菲州长号召全州加速创新的响应？但能否描述Helix的构思过程，以及为何你认为它是激活这些历史元素的重要载体？

And, you know, look at what you're doing today, and let's think about Helix NJ and the hub. And thinking about how do you transform those ingredients, you know, that kind of are are based on, you know, history and the DNA of the region in so many ways, and begin to think about, you know, what what are the components needed today as you look forward to create those same conditions, you know, in a sense, you know, having the opportunity to reenact in today's world, you know, the situation where you've got Thomas Edison, you know, sitting next to the Johnson brothers, you know, who are those of our day today, and it's so much of it is about connecting the dots and creating kind of serendipitous environments that have purpose to them. Maybe you can talk a little bit about your vision for getting this project up and running, approved. I imagine, you know, a lot of this was, you know, a response to a call from governor Murphy's, you know, call to action to supercharge innovation across the state. But maybe you could describe the conception of the Helix and why you think it's an important piece of how you bring those historical elements to life, but in a forward looking moment.

从很多方面来说，这始于新泽西州、米德尔塞克斯县和新不伦瑞克。这里确实在美国制药业发展中扮演了重要角色，新泽西常被称为'世界药柜'。但不知何时，这个行业迷失了方向，他们搬离了城市。

So, you know, in many ways, it kind of started with New Jersey, Middlesex County, New Brunswick to an extent. I was certainly played a large role in the development of the pharmaceutical industry in the country. And it was often referred to as the medicine New Jersey is referred to as the medicine chest of the world. But somewhere along the way, the industry kinda lost lost its way. They moved out of the cities.

他们迁往高速公路沿线、郊区，躲在围墙后，以非协作的垂直方式进行研究。后来他们意识到这种方式行不通了。但由于某些原因——或许是缺乏州政府的支持鼓励，或是被肯德尔广场、费城科学园等地抢占了先机——他们继续开展研发，却转移到了其他地方。他们悄悄在暗处离开，在肯德尔广场等地开设实验室。

They moved out to the highways, to the suburbs, behind gates, and research was being conducted in a noncollaborative, very vertical way. And they started to understand that that wasn't working anymore. But for some reason, either from not being assisted, and encouraged by, state government or, for or the fact that places like Kendall Square and Science Park in in in Philadelphia just got ahead of the curve, is that they continued to do research. They continued, to do development, but they did it someplace else. You know, they quietly slipped out in the dark and opened up, laboratories in places like Kendall Square.

他们之所以能做到这一点，很大程度上是因为我认为情况开始发生变化——要知道在过去，开发一种药物或疗法往往需要数十年时间。而如今，市场上约60%的产品最初并非源自制药公司，它们可能来自某个孵化器项目、某人的车库，或是离职创业者与其他人的合作。这种动态变化正在肯德尔广场上演。让我真正意识到我们需要做什么的，是有次在咖啡馆遇见一位拥有博士学位的年轻医生，我们聊起了这个话题。

And they did it in large part because I think that started to change where, you know, back in the day, they would spend decades developing a drug or a therapy. And I think probably today, 60% of things that go to market didn't start with that company, that they were, you know, coming from some incubator project or somebody's garage or somebody who left another company and partnered with somebody else. And that type of dynamic was happening in Kendall Square. And it really came together for me about what we needed to try to do is I remember meeting a young physician who was a PhD, and she, said to me in a coffee shop. We started talking about this.

她说：'你看，我从事糖尿病研究。在新不伦瑞克有个小实验室，既要在诊所接诊，也要去医院查房。'

She said, you know, look. I do diabetes research. I have a lab here in small lab here in New Brunswick. I see patients in the clinic. I see patients in the hospital.

'但我创办的公司却需要开车25分钟，到高速公路旁糟糕的共享办公空间。我需要能在几个街区范围内实现医院查房、学术实验室检查、患者问诊和初创公司工作之间的无缝衔接——因为我在剑桥、费城等地的同行都能做到这点，否则我考虑离开。'这番话促使我们深入思考：如何在这里培育这种创新文化？毕竟我们有两所顶尖大学相距不过数英里，那里正不断涌现新发现。

But I started a company, and I have to get in my car and drive twenty five minutes to some bad flex space off of a highway. And I need to be able to go from the hospital, check to my academic lab, see some patients, and go to my my startup. And I need to do that within a couple blocks because I've got colleagues in, you know, Cambridge and in Philadelphia and other parts of the country who can do that, and I'm thinking of leaving. And it really, really helped us dive into, the entire concept of how do we bring how do we start to nurture that culture here? Because we have two big major universities within miles of each other, and there's things that are being discovered there.

这些学府正在孵化初创企业，但它们却要远赴他乡发展。于是我们展开调研，了解其他地区的成功经验后发现了机遇。八年前我在州长过渡办公室时，我的大学导师——现任政策顾问主任——把我拉进办公室说：'我们需要个宏大构想。'我回答：'我正好有一个，虽然还不知道如何实现。'

And there are things there are startups that are coming out of those places, and they're going someplace else to do. So, you know, did some homework, started to really understand what was going on in some of these other places, and then you see an opportunity. I was wandering through the governor's transition office over eight years ago, and his chief policy adviser, who had been a professor of mine in college, dragged me into his office. And he says, we need a bigger big idea. I go, I got a big idea.

值得称赞的是，墨菲州长几个月后就召集各方召开大会，宣布启动这个项目。罗格斯大学也进行了深刻反思，意识到他们落后于密歇根、弗吉尼亚和北卡等对标院校，开始探讨改革方案。

I don't know how we're gonna get there. And to governor Murphy's credit, you know, within months, he dragged all kinds of people into a big meeting, and he announced we were doing this. So we were on the hook. And Rutgers, to their credit, really did some self evaluation. They realized that they were behind where their peers and their aspirational peers were, looking at the Michigans and the Virginians and the North Carolinas of the world and, you know, said, well, what do we need to do?

我们联合了罗格斯大学、普林斯顿大学、主导州长经济政策的新泽西经济发展局，以及两大医疗系统——哈肯萨克子午线和罗伯特·伍德·约翰逊巴纳巴斯健康集团，宣布共同参与。虽然不少人对此表示怀疑，但借助州长政策议程的推动力，我们得以推进。最初计划10万平方英尺的孵化器项目后来被证明规模过小。

So what we did is we brought together, you know, Rutgers, Princeton, the New Jersey Economic Development Authority who was kind of leading the charge on the governor's economic pop economic policy, And the two largest health care Hackensack Meridian and Robert Wood Johnson Barnabas Health, and said, you know, we're all gonna be part of this. And I got a lot of people looking at me a little cross eyed, but you've got when you're able to take a policy agenda of a governor, you're able to kinda move forward. And we were pretty much going to start with a small incubator project. We're probably looking at a 100,000 square feet, which is probably no. We know this probably was too large.

Portal Innovations本可能对此感兴趣。但我们通过与州长合作的新激励计划，成功将大学转化医学研究、医学院项目、孵化器以及制药公司研究生实验室整合到同一栋建筑中。Helix首期58万平方英尺的建筑代表着约8亿美元投资，其中新泽西州通过税收抵免和现金投入了约5亿美元。据我们所知，这仍是全美唯一实现这种整合模式的案例。我们不仅在建造新不伦瑞克火车站对面的建筑群，更是在奠定创新生态系统的基石。

Portal Innovations probably would have been interested in this. But we were working with the governor on his new incentive programs, and one was fashion that really launched us because we were able to use that program to bring translational research from the university, a medical school, an incubator project, and step up graduate lab space for pharmaceutical companies and put them in one building. You know, we are the first building of the Helix is 580,000 square feet, represents about $800,000,000 worth of investment, and represents in either tax credits or in cash about a half a billion dollars by the state of New Jersey. And as far as we know, it's still the only place in the country that's just doing that. So we were well on our way, and we started to tell a story of building not a bunch of buildings across from the New Jersey Jersey New Brunswick Train Station, but building laying the groundwork for an ecosystem.

嗯，嗯。我认为生态系统需要自我发展，但科学也需要一个落脚点。从肯德尔广场等地方学到的经验是，人们喜欢合作。年轻的研究人员总想借用别人的显微镜看看。

Mhmm. Mhmm. I think an ecosystem has to develop itself, but, you know, science needs a place. And understanding the what lessons they've learned from going to places like Kendall Square is that people like to collaborate. You know, young researchers wanna go look at somebody else's microscope.

有时候人们吃午饭时就想解决某个问题。嗯。大家互相交流。于是我们开始打造一个能培育这类关系的社区。我们让合作伙伴明白，不只是提供办公和实验室空间，更希望他们参与共建社区。

Somebody or, you know, they're looking to solve a problem over lunch sometime. Mhmm. People talk to each other. And so we started to to build a a a a neighborhood that we thought would foster that kind of relationships. Getting our partners to say, you know, we're not asking you just to take office space and lab space, but we want you to be part of building a community.

我们认为Portal真正能帮我们激发的，就是提供这类合作机会。后来我们很幸运——贝尔实验室在八十年后正在寻找新家。如果你听过贝尔实验室总裁Theory Klein的讲述，就知道Helix考察了全美和加拿大65个地点，这里完美契合了他们所有需求点。

And that's what we think Portal's really gonna help energize for us is, you know, giving people those opportunities to kind of collaborate. And then look. We got really lucky. Bell Labs was looking for a new home after eighty years. And, you know, if you listen to Theory Klein, the president of Bell Labs, you know, the Helix, looked at 65 different sites throughout the country and in Canada, and this really touched all of the of of their hotspots.

知道吗？这个地理位置便于他们招募人才。周边还有与之匹配的科研活动，他们对此非常兴奋。虽然我三四天没来，但看到那栋楼的钢结构已经拔地而起，首栋建筑将在四月开放。

You know? It was a geographic location where they could recruit people. There was other science going on that was compatible, and they were quite excited about it. So, you know, I just haven't been here in three or four days and realized the steel's all going vertical on that building, and we're gonna open the first building in April.

太惊人了。这个愿景本就很了不起，现在看到它成真，肯定很有成就感。虽然开门营业前还有工作要做，但正如你描述的，一切都在推进。现在确实是创新的黄金时代，不是吗？顶尖学术医疗中心意识到，要吸引留住优秀教职，就得满足他们对影响力的追求——不仅是做出伟大科学发现、发表论文，更要关爱病患，让创意走向市场。

It's amazing. It's an incredible vision, but then to see it become real, know, it has to be very rewarding and I know there's more work to be done to open the doors and it's on its way as you've as you've already described. It's a very exciting time really for innovation, isn't it? In the sense that there's almost see this innovation arms race underway where you have top academic medical centers that are realizing that to attract and retain great faculty, more of those faculty are really interested in impact, which means not just doing great science, coming up with a new discovery, then publishing in science and nature, but it's also about caring patients. They want to see their idea move out into the marketplace.

你提到的邻近性确实关键。科学家也是人，需要工作生活娱乐一体化的环境。他们要有好视野，下班后能喝杯啤酒。当你考虑将新分子或设备推向市场时，这些可是24/7的工作。如今新不伦瑞克周边正在形成的都市条件简直不可思议。

And what you noted was that proximity really matters. Need a live work play environment where scientists are people too. They get a chance to have the cool views, they get to hang out and have a beer after work. These are 20 fourseven type roles when you're thinking about moving a new molecule or a new device to the marketplace. And so creating that the urban conditions that is now, you know, coming to life around New Brunswick is incredible.

我认为这种模式已经显现效果——罗格斯大学的科学家们已经开始对外联络。有些原本无处可去的小公司正考虑就地发展。当前宏观环境下，科学发展速度空前，学科融合正在发生。量子计算、人工智能、电池技术等非生物化学领域也将影响医疗健康。

And I think that it's tapping into and I'm already seeing it. Know, there's there's already outreach by Rutgers scientists. You know, there's small companies that, know, didn't have a place to go and are looking for opportunities to think about staying home. I think so much about what's going on right now in the macro environment is that science is moving at a faster pace than ever. Convergence is happening, so you got things that go beyond biology and chemistry that are gonna have healthcare impact like quantum and AI and battery technology.

所以，有各种可以想象的新商业模式，对吧？这意味着你需要许多不同类型的人愿意聚集在这个地方。让我印象深刻的是这个地区和人才。我指的是那些已经来到新不伦瑞克、或居住在新不伦瑞克、或住在附近的人。在我看来，这里就像一个充满机遇的火药桶。

So it's there's all kinds of new business models that can be imagined, right? And that means that you require a lot of different kinds of people that like to be in this one spot. And one thing that strikes me is just the region and the talent. I mean, the people that are already either coming to New Brunswick or live in New Brunswick or live nearby. It's it strikes me, you know, as a tinderbox of opportunity.

也许你可以稍微谈谈这一点，就是与人才的接近性，以及这种多元化人才的重要性，他们能帮助这些想法从罗格斯大学的转化阶段发展成一家公司，最终进入毕业阶段，理想情况下，甚至进入新泽西州Helix的下一栋大楼？

Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, just the proximity to talent and the importance of that diverse talent that can help, you know, these ideas go from translation at Rutgers into a company, you know, into the graduation space and ideally, you know, in the in the next building in in Helix, New Jersey?

你知道，关键在于位置、位置、位置。正如我之前所说，按人均计算，新泽西州居住的博士数量比世界上任何其他地方都多。举个例子，几个月前我接到斯隆·凯特琳一位研究人员的电话，他说：‘你看，我在这里看诊，也在新泽西的分部看诊。’

You know, it is about location, location, location. And, you know, I think as I said before, there there are more, you know, PhDs that live in New Jersey anywhere else in the world on a per on a per capita basis. But, you know, just to give you an example, I got a call several months ago from a researcher at Sloan Kettera who said he said, look. I've you know, I see patients here. I see patients in our New Jersey locations.

我在纽约市有个实验室，但我们初创公司的三位合伙人都住在新泽西。他们问：‘我们什么时候能搬进Helix？’虽然时间上没完全契合，但这些人确实存在，他们正在寻找一个地方。重要的是，新泽西有很多制药公司已经搬迁，留下了大量闲置的旧实验室空间。

I have a lab in New York City, but my three partners on our startup all live in New Jersey. And when can we move into the helix? And our timing didn't necessarily work out. But they're you know, the those those people are out there, and they're looking for a place. I think what's really important is they're not in New Jersey, there's a lot of pharmaceutical companies that have changed up, and there's a lot of vacant old lab space.

对吧？但他们不想从停车场穿过大门上二楼，然后关上门待在实验室里。实验室的设计也很重要。我知道我们和你们合作的项目中，他们希望访客能进来看到研究进展。在罗格斯大学，转化研究采用全开放式实验室系统，让人们能聚在一起。

Right? But they don't wanna walk from their parking lot, you know, through the doors up to the Second Floor and close the door in their lab space. Even the design of laboratories, you know, is important. I know what we're you know, the work that we're doing with you, they want you wanna be able people, visitors to come in and see the research is going on. At Rutgers, the in the translational research, it's all open lab systems so that people can be together.

我们正在做诸如用内部楼梯连接所有楼层，并在上下层设置咖啡区，鼓励人们在楼层间交流分享。同样重要的是，正如你提到的，现在不再是写论文，而是要把研究转化为疗法真正帮助人们。斯特罗姆校长希望医学院大楼与转化研究结合，因为他们希望更多医学生考虑攻读博士项目。嗯，对吧？

We're doing things like connecting all of the floors with internal staircases and coffee at the top and the bottom so that people wanna go and and share share between floors. What's also really important is, because you you you made mention of it, is is is being able to take you're not writing a paper any longer, but being able to turn that into a therapy and to really help people. You know, chancellor Strom really wanted the medical school in the building with translational research because they want more MD students to think about a PhD program. Mhmm. Right?

同样重要的是我们刚完成的罗格斯癌症研究所——这是一个十亿美元的投资项目——当患者走进大楼中庭时，他们能看到研究正在进行。嗯。他们知道每天都有人们在努力研究可能对他们有帮助的东西。这对患者士气是巨大的鼓舞。所以我认为，我们在新不伦瑞克创造的关于发现和将其转化为商业化的能量越多越好。

What's just as important and the the the Rutgers Cancer Institute that we just finished, which was a billion dollar investment, is that when patients come into that building and are in the atrium, they can see research going on. Mhmm. They know that there are people every day waking up trying working on something that may be helpful to them. And that is a big morale boost with respect to patients. So I think the more energy that we create in New Brunswick about discovery and translating that to commercialization look.

真正重要的是，这最初是州长的一项经济发展政策，即企业通常会在其发源地20英里范围内扩张、寻求更多资本并上市。这正是它们从4人团队发展到200人规模的路径。我们希望能鼓励这种从新不伦瑞克向外线性发展的模式。

What's really important, and this started as a an economic development policy of the governor, is that, you know, companies where they start usually expand, you know, find more capital, go public within 20 miles of where they where they started. And that's where they go from four people to 200 people working. And we wanna encourage that type of of of of kind of linear progression out out of New Brunswick.

是的。我认为另一个即将到来的未开发机遇，已经为州长所描述的这些条件奠定了基础。大型制药企业就在那里——正如你指出的，当今的大型药企与二三十年前已截然不同，那时所有研发都在内部或园区完成。如今它们的大部分收入来源要么是授权引进，要么收购自可能源自大学实验室的生物科技公司。这一切都正在那里发生。

Yeah. And I think the other untapped opportunity that's on the horizon that creates the conditions that you just described with regards to, you know, the governor's points is already resident there. You've got large pharma and as you've already pointed out, large pharma today is much different than it was twenty, thirty years ago, where everything was developed in house or on the campus. So much of their top line is either licensed in or acquired from biotech companies that probably spun out of a university. And all that's happening right there.

将早期阶段、开发阶段到临床阶段的环节串联起来，就能为这些制药企业及其拥有更多行业关系的人才创造更多机会。这种地理邻近性和规模效应，我认为会随着产业链向下游延伸而加速显现。正如你所知，大多数药企比以往更渴望早期介入——为此它们设立了企业风投部门，与我们紧密合作，甚至在初创企业孵化阶段就联合寻找投资机会。这正在新泽西州乃至全球范围内，为大型药企与小型公司之间创造全新的连接点。

And connecting the dot from the early stage to the development stage to the clinic, you start to create more fodder for those pharma companies and the talent they're in that has more relationship. And that proximity and critical mass, I think kicks into high gear, you know, as you move, as you continue to move downstream as well. And as you know, most of these pharma companies are looking to develop early stage access more than ever before, you know, to kind of be in the mix early on. So they have corporate VC groups that I know that we work with very closely that are syndicating with us identifying opportunities even at the company creation level. So that's a different factor that's creating new connection points between large pharma in New Jersey and across the world, you know, to small small companies.

最让我们兴奋的是贝尔实验室的存在。虽然大多数人可能看不出生命科学、制药业与诊断行业之间的必然联系——但最近有个有趣的发现：在他们奠基仪式上，有位负责挖掘搁置技术的演讲者提到，他首批转化的研究成果之一，是贝尔实验室科学家原本为其他工业客户开发的光学技术——现在这项技术已成立了一家75人规模的初创公司，专门研发内耳疾病诊断工具。

One of the things that we found really exciting is, you know, with Bell Labs being here, And you may not really most people, I know you do, but most people may don't see the connection between life science and the pharma industry and the diagnostic industry necessarily. But, you know, recently, and it's interesting. One of the one of the speakers at their groundbreaking who was brought on to to actually find those technologies that have been on the shelf in Murray Hill and see what you can kind of do with it. Well, one of the first things that one of the first companies that he one of the first pieces of research that he took and tried to find a new home for was the use of an optical technology by Bell Labs scientists that they were using someplace else for one of their industry clients, but that it is now a start up with five excuse me, 75 employees doing creating a diagnostic tool for for inner ear problems. Yeah.

他们将在其大楼内设立战略创新中心，类似于我们大楼里的配置。这个中心将培育并联合大学及外部研究人员，开发那些虽不符合贝尔实验室商业计划、但对社会极具价值（也可能蕴含商业潜力）的搁置技术——传统上这些技术往往被束之高阁。这对我们Portal而言是绝佳的合作机会，无论是人工智能还是量子技术，都能与生命科学领域人才实现跨界融合。

And they're going to have in their building, much like what we have in our building, is a a strategic innovation center where they're going to foster and partner with university researchers and and and outside researchers on technologies that may have been discovered in Bell Labs isn't really fit their business plan, but this is too valuable to, you know, society and potentially financially to be left on the shelf, which was traditionally kinda what happened. So I think it's a great opportunity for us, for Portal to be able to have those partnerships. You know, it might be artificial intelligence or maybe quantum, and to be able to marry it up with with people in the life science sector.

我完全同意，Chris。这就是当今时代的精彩之处。展望未来十年，谁会是更可能的合作伙伴？历史上我们总认为会是大型药企——它们确实仍是新诊断工具、新设备或新药上市的重要推手。但越来越多的合作伙伴将是诺基亚贝尔实验室这类机构，还有远程医疗...

I couldn't agree more, Chris. That's what's really cool when you think about today. You know, the you look out over the next decade and what who's a more likely partner? And I think we tend to think historically, well, that's gonna be a big pharma company and indeed that will be a big part of the pathway and progression of bringing a new diagnostic tool, a new device, you know, or a new medicine to the marketplace. But increasingly, the partners are going to be the Nokia Bell Labs, you know, the telehealth.

如何通过远程方式管理医疗健康？这依赖各种创新技术：诊断工具需要的柔性电子学、支撑患者终身使用设备的电池技术等。未来十年的合作模式将完全不同于过去百年。正如英伟达CEO黄仁勋常说的：'你要紧挨着苹果树，才能随时跃起接住掉落的果实。'这种近距离协作确实令人振奋。

How are you managing the health care from remote positions, those rely on different kinds of technologies. You think about flexible electronics for diagnostic tools, the development even of battery technologies that are going to allow the deployment of devices over the whole life of a patient. So partnerships are not going to be the same in the next decade as they were, you know, in the past, you know, hundred years. And I think that's really exciting. So being nearby, being as Jensen Huang often says, you know, the the CEO of NVIDIA, you wanna be right near the apple tree so you can make a diving catch, you know, and catch that apple.

就像我说的，这就是正在发生的事情。

Like, that's what's going on, I in my opinion.

你知道，我们正吸引大量关注。我们已与爱尔兰和以色列的大学建立了合作伙伴关系。今天州长还与印度的一所科技大学会面。他们有兴趣来这里，因为这是进入市场的门户。能够获得像Portal这样的支持来推动公司发展，并利用这里的所有资源完善他们的研究。

You know, we're catching a lot of attention. We we have forged partnerships with universities in Ireland and in Israel. And today, the governor's meeting with a technology university in India. And they're interested in being here because it's an entree to a market. It's being able to get the support from people like Portal to be able to move their companies forward and to kind of refine their research with the the the rest of the of the of the resources that are here.

这真的很棒。我们与都柏林城市大学建立了合作关系，而他们又与罗格斯大学有紧密合作。所有这些点正在被连接起来，无论是国际还是本地的。我认为时机已经成熟，全球范围内创新正日益本地化。NIH的部分资金撤回正在加速这一趋势，促使更多依赖州和地方基础设施，而这一切正变得愈发重要。

It's really cool. We have a partnership with Dublin City University who has a strong partnership with Rutgers. It's so all those dots are getting connected, you know, both international and local. Think the time is right to, you know, globally, but so much innovation is getting localized now. I think part of the NIH pullback is causing more of that to happen, more reliance on the states, local infrastructure at a time when all of that's becoming more important.

所以克里斯，你的信条是城市永无完工之日。这种理念如何指导你在DevCo的工作？

So, Chris, your credo is that a city is never finished. So how has that mindset guided your work at DevCo?

你不能沉溺于怀旧。很多人对我说'我还记得小时候的新不伦瑞克'，我就说我们在宾夕法尼亚有个外景地可以重现它。人们会重新考虑这个问题。那些不自我革新的城市终将失败。

You can't dwell on nostalgia. You know, I have so many people say to me, oh, I just remember New Brunswick when I was growing up, and I say, well, you know, we have that on a backlot in Pennsylvania. We could bring it back. People kinda give that a second thought. But cities that that don't reinvent themselves really fail.

过去三十年来，我们帮助新不伦瑞克完成了自我革新。但事实上几百年来，新不伦瑞克一直在持续自我重塑。我认为关键在于全身心投入、永不放弃、保持坚韧，解决他人的问题——理解合作伙伴的困境并为他们解决。有人问我什么时候才算完成，我说希望永远没有终点。

And, you know, we have reinvented New Brunswick or helped New Brunswick reinvent itself for the last three decades. But New Brunswick, you know, for several hundred years has continuously invent reinvented itself. So, you know, I think it's it's it's diving in, you know, never giving up, being relentless, solving other people's problems, solve understanding your partner's problems and solving them for them. People I ask me when will you be done? And I said, hopefully not.

只是把接力棒传给下一个人而已。

It'll just pass the baton on to the next person.

嗯，是的。那么，我想深入探讨一下这个问题，或许可以请你自私地回顾一下你参与过的所有项目——从表演艺术中心到各种项目，再到癌症中心、研究枢纽，以及无数其他你亲身参与的事务。在迄今为止的旅程中，你能选出最引以为豪的成就吗？

Mhmm. Yeah. And so, I mean, diving a little bit deeper on that and maybe, you know, asking you to think selfishly across all the projects you've been involved in, from the performing arts center to the various, to the cancer center, to the research hub and the countless other things that you've personally been involved in. Can you pick a proudest accomplishment so far on your journey?

如果要问我我们做过的最重要项目是什么，我会告诉你永远是我们当前正在进行的那个。

Well, if you ask me what was the most important project that we've worked on, I would tell you whatever one we're working on currently.

这很合理。我不会反驳。

That makes sense. I wouldn't argue.

我认为，在这个行业或任何你所从事的领域，真正的意义在于让你经手的地方变得比你发现它时更好。比如我们在罗格斯大学学院大道重建项目中的工作——我们投入了约4亿美元，新建了荣誉住宿学院，打造了如今成为校园核心的'The Yard'商业公园综合体，还有新的教学楼。

You know, I think I think when you're in this business or, you know, any business that you're in, it's kind of leaving a place that you found a little better than you found it. Mhmm. And if I look at the work we did on the College Avenue redevelopment project at Rutgers, we certainly you know, we built about $400,000,000. We built a new residential honors college. We built the yard, which is a kind of a centerpiece of the campus now with retail and a park, a new classroom building.

我当年就读的地方已焕然一新。二十年没回校的兄弟会老友来访时都说认不出来了。我们创建了每年吸引20万人的文化区，这意义重大。再看癌症研究所的工作——你确实参与了改变生命的伟大事业，虽然只是其中一小部分。而现在我们推进的Helix项目，某种程度上整合了所有这些成果。

You know, a place that I went to school is a very different place. I'll have, you know, guys at my fraternity who haven't been here in twenty years come back and say, I just don't recognize the place. To be able to create a cultural district where 200,000 people come every year, and and and that was really important work. You have to look at the Cancer Institute and and say, you know, that is really important work that you've done, and you're gonna you're you're just playing a small role in helping change lives. But the work we're doing now with the Helix kind of brings a lot of that together.

我们正在让大学变得更强大，让新布朗斯维克市更具活力，为新型疗法和药物研发创造机遇。在这四英亩土地上，Helix项目将提供600套新公寓。从很多方面来说，在下一个终极项目出现之前，这就是我们的集大成之作。

You know, we're making the university stronger. We're making New Brunswick stronger. We're creating opportunities for new therapies and medications to to be discovered. So in a lot of ways, the Helix project, you know, it we're gonna have 600 new apartments on that four acres where people are going to live. A lot of ways, this is kinda, you know, until the next thing, the ultimate project because its phone.

没错。它确实把所有成果都凝聚在一起了。

Yeah. It brings it all together.

它将所有这些碎片整合在一起。我发现正是这些碎片让这一切成为现实。因为当你与有意入驻的公司交谈时，拥有一个表演艺术中心、一个拥有700间酒店客房的小镇，还有一所实力雄厚的大学——这些事实都至关重要。能够参与所有这些事情，我真的很兴奋地期待接下来会发生什么。

It brings it all together in a lot of those pieces. And what I find is that all of those pieces is making this a reality. Because when you talk to a company that's interested in coming in, the fact that you have a performing arts center and you have a town with 700 hotel rooms, you know, you have a a strong university. You know, so having played a part in all of those things, I'm just kind of excited to see what's next.

我们开始谈话时，你提到了职业生涯的起点。你是个冒险家、企业家、创造者，选择的道路产生了巨大影响，你的影响力回报非常可观。我想问所有交谈过的企业家同样的问题：你是如何平衡这一切的？

So, you know, we began the conversation, you'd talked about the beginnings of your career. I mean, you're a risk taker, you're an entrepreneur, you're a creator. You've chosen a path that has made a huge impact. Your return on impact is enormous. What is that been like juggling that, you know, I ask you know, all of the entrepreneurs I talked to, how do you balance it?

听说你还有个美满的家庭，甚至有传言说你有个农场。你是如何保持平衡的？你做到了吗？

You know, you've got a great family too. I've heard a rumor maybe you have a farm, you know. How do you keep it balanced? And were you able to?

听着，我告诉你。我能坚持这么久的原因之一就是我能当家做主。我很幸运，从没错过家长会或孩子的校队比赛。

Look. I'll tell you. With probably the one of the reasons that I've stayed doing this so long is I get to be the boss. So, you know, I was fortunate. I don't think I ever met missed a a parent teacher conference or a kid's, you know, varsity sports game.

大约七年前我确实这么做了。像我们这年纪的人通常不会犯这种错误——他们往往会缩减规模。但我买了个农场。我没什么爱好，所以每天早上五点半就起来清理畜栏、驱赶驴子和绵羊，这反而有种宣泄的快感。

I I I did I did about seven years ago. People our age don't make this mistake. They usually downsize. I bought a farm. I don't have I've have any I don't have any hobbies, so I'm up at 05:30 in the morning and cleaning stalls and beating donkeys and sheep, and that's kinda cathartic.

当我外出无法做这些时，我会想念那种感觉。我认为我成功创造了一种状态：我们既能保持核心稳定，又能深度投入重要工作，并且掌握决策权。这很重要，虽然我总说自己没有实权。

When I'm away and I don't get to do it, I miss that. And I think it is I think I think I think I was able to kinda create a situation where we're kind of centered and able to to to really dive into some very important work in a way where we get to call the shots. That's kind of important, you know, and decide. I I always say that I have no power. You know?

我有朋友去了高盛工作，也有在纽约大律所任职的。但每天我都能决定自己要做什么、参与什么项目——这是我唯一的权力。只有当别人想让你参与他们项目时，你才能稍微吸引些注意力。

There's friends of mine who went to work for Goldman Sachs and worked for big law firms in New York. And but every day, I get to decide what I'm gonna do and what project I'm gonna work for, and that's the only power I have. And you get a little bit of people's attention when, you know, you you when when they when they want you to work on what they want you to work on.

非常棒。要知道，在我们即将结束之际，我们的听众群体非常多元化，其中许多人刚刚踏上职业道路。对于那些想要在塑造经济或生态系统（用我们的术语来说）并建设促进创新之地的年轻领导者或创业者，你有什么关键建议可以提供给这些人吗？

Very cool. You know, as we close out, you know, our our audience, you know, consists of a broad array of of listeners, many of whom are, you know, just getting started on their career path. And so for those young leaders or entrepreneurs that want to pursue a path in, you know, shaping, you know, economies or ecosystems in our parlance and build places that foster innovation. Any keywords of advice that you would offer that individual?

全面涉足这个领域，保持不懈努力，每个问题都会带来新的机遇。

Do the whole field, kind of be relentless, and every problem creates a new opportunity.

说得太好了，非常简洁。这对Portal和我个人来说，确实是与你及你的团队合作的绝佳机会。能参与其中令人振奋，我们还处于早期阶段。我已经能看到未来几十年可能产生的影响，希望我们能为你更宏大的愿景起到一点催化作用。

Love it. Very succinct. It's it's a real opportunity of of for Portal, and me personally to be collaborating with you and your team. It's inspiring to be a part of, and we're in the early days. I just I see the impact, know, over the over decades to come that we hope we can play a small part in helping catalyze your bigger vision.

我们也很期待与你们合作。我们知道找到了合适的伙伴。谢谢。

Well, we're looking forward to working with you. We know we've got the right partner. So thanks.

感谢今天加入我们。这又是一期精彩的节目。希望你们喜欢今天与嘉宾的对话，并像我一样受到启发。期待两周后再次相聚。请访问我们的网站labratstounicorns.com。

Thanks for joining us today. It was another great episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with our guests today and were inspired the way I was. Looking forward to reconvening again in two weeks. Please visit our website at labratstounicorns.com.

我们欢迎任何评论、反馈或想法。如果你希望我向嘉宾提出特定问题，或有推荐采访的人选，请告诉我们。那就这样，再见。

We welcome any of your comments, feedback, ideas. If you want me to ask certain questions of guests or you have ideas of people that we should be interviewing. That is all goodbye.