日本的开源创新与后藤英博士_e.073

红老鼠变独角兽。

Red Rats to unicorns.

本节目聚焦生物技术与医疗设备背后的科学家们。通过人物故事，《实验室老鼠到独角兽》希望能展现一个研究如何从实验室起步，最终成为拯救生命的疗法或帮助患者的产品这一变革过程。生命、生命、拯救生命。今天这场对话非常特别，我有幸与一位朋友兼合作伙伴交谈。

This show is all about the people behind the science of biotechnology and medical devices. Through the stories of the people, I hope that Lab Rats to Unicorns is able to describe the transformative process of how an starts in the lab and eventually becomes a lifesaving treatment or a product that helps patients with diseases. Life, life, lifesaving. Well, today is a very special conversation. I get to speak with a friend and a partner.

今天我们邀请到了后藤博士。他是安斯泰来制药日本开放创新负责人。拥有超过27年药物研发经验的后藤博士，其职业生涯始终致力于科学、合作与创新的交汇点。

Today, we're joined by Doctor. Hide Go to. He's the Head of Open Innovation for Japan at Astellas. With more than twenty seven years of experience in drug discovery and research, Doctor. Goto has built his career at the intersection of science, collaboration and innovation.

他领导过再生医学、细胞与基因治疗领域的多项计划，如今正大力推动开放式创新以加速发现进程，为全球患者带来新疗法。在安斯泰来，后藤博士负责筑波市的Saku实验室——这个独特的开放创新实验室旨在连接研究者、初创企业与行业伙伴，将学术科研转化为现实医疗方案。除在日本创新生态中的角色外，后藤博士还担任过多个国际领导职务，包括马萨诸塞州安斯泰来再生医学研究所所长。

He has led initiatives in regenerative medicine, cell and gene therapy, and now champions opium innovation as a way to accelerate discovery and bring new therapies to patients around the world. At Astellas, Doctor. Goetho oversees Saku Lab in Tsukuba, a unique open innovation lab designed to connect researchers, startups and industry partners to help transform academic science into real world healthcare solutions. Beyond his role in Japan's innovation ecosystem, Doctor. Go to has also held leadership positions globally, including as President of the Astellas Institute for Regenerative Medicine in Massachusetts.

后藤博士，欢迎来到节目——或者我该说：嘿，老友。

Doctor. Gotoh, welcome to the show or should I say He Day, my good friend.

谢谢，感谢介绍。非常高兴能参与这次对话，感谢你给我这个宝贵的机会。谢谢。

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the introduction. So I'm very happy to be here and thank you for giving me this great opportunity. Thank you.

那我们直接进入主题吧。我想观众最感兴趣的是了解您的职业历程：是什么让您最初踏入药物研发领域？又是什么激发了您？

So if we just kind of jump right in, what I know our audience will really be curious to learn about is a little bit about your journey. You know, what got you started? What inspired you to get into drug discovery in the first place?

好的，谢谢。正如你所提到的，我在这个行业已有超过二十五年的职业生涯。我最初是以分子生物学家的身份开始职业生涯，二十五年前（确切说是超过二十五年前）在日本参与了基于小分子的药物研发工作。那时候，药物研发非常简单——开发小分子药物、酶抑制剂或类似ZPCR配体的物质，针对糖尿病、高血压这类重大适应症。但如今，正如你所知，药物研发行业已处于完全不同的局面。

Okay. Thank you. So as you mentioned, I have more than twenty five years career in this industry, And I have started my career as a molecular biologist, and I was involved in the small molecule based drug discovery in Japan twenty five years, more than twenty five years ago. And at that time, you know, drug discovery was very simple, to develop a very simple, you know, small molecule drug or enzyme inhibitor or ZPCR ligand or something like that for, you know, big, you know, indications like diabetes or hypertension or something like that. But, you know, now is a very different, you know, situation in drug discovery industry, as you know.

我们现在必须尝试涉足基因治疗、细胞治疗等新疗法领域，甚至超越这些范畴。正如我介绍过的，我曾在波士顿担任Astellas旗下细胞治疗子公司负责人超过三年，参与了多个细胞治疗项目，同时也深入了解了波士顿地区的生态系统。

And we are now we need to, you know, try to find a try to jump in the new modality, like gene therapy or cell therapy or beyond that. Beyond Zen. And as I introduced, so I was in Boston more than three years as a head of cell therapy, you know, subsidiary company, you know, of Astellas. And I was in Boston and, you know, later, you know, various cell therapy programs. And also, I learned a lot ecosystem in Boston area.

这段经历彻底改变了我对药物研发的认知方式，完全重塑了我的思维模式。现在的科学高度专业化且日益复杂，每天都有新兴科学涌现。我深刻意识到，我们这样的小公司无法独自完成所有事情，必须与外部利益相关方及科研人员合作，才能跟上新兴科学、新生物学和新技术的发展步伐。

So that changed my, you know, kind of understanding of for drug discovery. You know, completely changed my mindset. And now, you know, science was very specialized and very not not simple, very specialized, and many new science, you know, emerged every day, every day. So I strongly recognize that we can't, you know, do everything in this small company. So we need to, you know, communicate with external, you know, stakeholder, science researchers to catch up all, you know, emerging science and new biology, new technology like that.

因此我强烈认识到，公司必须开展开放式创新活动才能生存。当然，我们的核心目标是为那些缺乏标准治疗方案的疾病患者创造价值。于是我选择转型进入生态系统建设领域，回到日本担任公司开放式创新管理负责人，致力于推动日本本土生态系统的发展。

So I strongly recognize that we need open innovation activities in this company to survive. So and, of course, you know, our, you know, target our, you know, objective is deliver value for patients who are suffering from the, you know, many types of indications which don't have any, you know, standard of care. So I, you know, would like to join would like to jump in this ecosystem field and change carrier to, you know, manage ecosystem, you know, developing ecosystem in Japan type of job and, you know, came back to Japan and have current role as a head of open innovation management in this company.

这确实令人振奋！无论对日本、生态系统还是科学领域来说都是激动人心的时代。你描述了自己早期科研历程中相对简单的科学阶段——虽然开发分子化合物、运用化学和生物学（可能还包括抗体等技术）本身也充满挑战。

It's very exciting. It's very exciting. It's such an exciting time both for Japan and the ecosystem, but also for science. Right? You described your early part of your journey, you know, kind of the science in your words was simple, you know, although, you know, challenging in its own way developing like molecules, you know, using chemistry and biology and probably antibodies and things like that.

但正如你所说，如今的科学变得极其复杂。令人兴奋的是，近年来已取得诸多突破性进展...

But today, like you said, the science is very complex. It's exciting because there's been many breakthroughs like

是的。

Yeah.

我们对基因组学和基因测序的了解更加深入，这有助于我们在开发疗法时更加精准。你最近谈到的一些研究方向，比如细胞疗法的前景以及甚至治愈疾病的可能，确实令人非常振奋，但正如你指出的，这也极其复杂。如果我理解正确的话，这需要跨学科合作，不同领域的科学必须协同工作，而且必须超越公司界限，与其他团队开展合作。所以我相信，从波士顿——这个生态系统如此丰富的地方出发，对你来说肯定特别激动人心。

We know a lot more about genomics and sequencing the genome and that helps us maybe be more precise with the kinds of therapies we can develop and some of the things that you've talked about working on recently, the promise of cell therapy and the ability to even cure diseases is very, very exciting, but it's also very complicated as you pointed out. And if I hear you correctly, you know, it's interdisciplinary so you need different kinds of science that are working together and you need it's gotta go outside your company. It's gotta collaborate with other groups. So it's really exciting for you I bet to go from Boston, you know, where there's really such a rich ecosystem.

我明白你的意思，是的。

I get you Yes.

我敢说你已经完全融入了那个生态系统，深刻理解了它的运作方式和高效率。把这些经验带回日本，对你来说想必非常令人兴奋。

I bet you really got fully immersed in, you know, the the way that ecosystem is is put together and and how high functioning it is bringing that knowledge, you know, back to Japan is probably pretty exciting for you.

是的，是的，非常激动人心。没错，正是这样。

Yes. Yes. Very exciting. Yeah. That's right.

那么，当你开始担任这个角色并把握机遇时，你注意到日本生命科学领域的初创生态系统有哪些与波士顿不同的特点？能否简要说明一下，让我们的听众了解日本与波士顿的差异所在？

And, you know, when when you began the the role and began to take on the opportunity, what are some of the things that you've noticed about the Japanese startup ecosystem in life sciences that, you know, are are different than what you experienced in Boston? Maybe you could just comment on that to set the stage so that our audience can understand what might be different in Japan than, you know, what you saw here in Boston.

好的，谢谢提问。实际上几乎每方面都不同。不过我可以分享一些数据来说明日美生态系统的差异——这是已公开的数据，虽然有点过时了。

Yeah. Thank you. So almost everything is different, actually. But, you know, here, so I can share some information to explain about the difference in the ecosystem in Japan and The United States. So this is a, you know, kind of, you know, published data and a little bit old, out of date.

2021年的生命科学生态系统排名如左侧所示。当然，硅谷（西海岸）、波士顿（东海岸）在这份排名中位居前列，分别第一和第二。该排名依据六大参数计算得出，包括绩效、资金、知识储备、人才、基础设施和政策支持，采用1到10分制对每个城市进行评估，比如硅谷、波士顿和纽约这样的城市。

So in 2021, the life science ecosystem ranking is, you know, here, left hand side. And, of course, you know, Silicon Valley, West Coast, Boston, East Coast are ranked highest in the this ranking, number one, number two. And this ranking was calculated by the some six parameters, like performance, funding, knowledge, talent, and infrastructure and policy. And from one to 10, we're, you know, based in each, you know, ranking and each city. So Silicon Valley, Boston, and New York City like that.

遗憾的是，东京仅排名第25位，而北京、首尔等其他亚洲城市排名更高。当我们查看具体细节时，尤其是人才指标，东京的得分仅为1分——这是最低分。这意味着日本的人才状况与波士顿剑桥地区截然不同。是的，这说明我们需要...怎么说呢，必须改革教育体系或者

And, unfortunately, you know, Tokyo was ranked twenty fifth, and other Asian cities like Beijing and Seoul, you know, are higher ranked. And, you know, to see the, you know, detail, when we can see the details, you know, performance and talent, especially talent in Tokyo was ranked scored one, so lowest score. So it means that, you know, talent in Japan is, you know, most different from the situation in Boston, you know, Cambridge area. So Yep. That means that we need to, you know, have a how to say, educational system or

对，确实。

Yeah. Of Yeah.

这类事情。

Kind of things.

你们开展的许多工作，部分带有商业导向性质，但也有一些属于学术型创业培训。

Lot of the work that you're doing, kind of some of it is commercial orientation, but some is going academic entrepreneurial training.

没错没错。但另一方面，你们看这张幻灯片右侧，目前这款药物的研发源头是哪里？

Right. Right. Right. That's right. And but, you know, on the other hand, so we if you can if you can see the right right hand of side right hand of this slide, so where current drug she's came from?

第一名是波士顿，东京地区排名第二。而关西京都大阪地区位列全球第六。这说明日本的基础科学研究并不差，相对而言还不错。

So number one is Boston, but Tokyo area is number two. And Kansai, Kyoto, Osaka area was ranked sixth in the world. It means that, you know, basic science in Japan is not so bad. Good. Relatively good.

当我思考日本创新体系时，其成功历史源远流长。这张图表显示的科研成果产出率完全在意料之中——过去几十年间，日本在新药研发领域的重大发现和贡献有目共睹，正如你指出的那样高产。就创新生态系统而言，东京已经具备了许多关键要素，现在需要做的是将大学、初创企业和大公司这些节点更好地连接起来。是这样吧？

And and when I think about the Japanese innovation, it has a rich history of success. I'm not surprised by this chart at all in terms of productivity because when we think about major discoveries and the pharma contribution from Japan for new drugs over the course of the past several of that decades, it's been highly productive as you pointed out. And so when I think about the the innovation ecosystem in so many ways, many elements of the many pieces of the puzzle are definitely there in Tokyo already. But it's beginning to connect some of the dots, the universities to the startups and then into the bigger companies probably. Correct?

是的。是的。没错。这就是重点。如何填补左右两侧之间的空白，其实就是日本的一个项目。

Yes. Yes. Exactly. So that's the point. And how to, you know, fill the gap between this left hand side and right hand side is, you know, a program in Japan.

所以我现在正在考虑如何填补这个空白，而这个即将到来的机会正是我职责的一部分。就是这样。

So I'm now, you know, considering, you know, how to fill the gap, and this, you know, coming opportunity is one one piece of this, you know, my, you know, responsibility. That's it.

确实。这很有道理。或许你可以展开谈谈早期的一些想法，比如如何从早期阶段开始构建生态系统并持续扩展？能否介绍一下Saku Lab及其重要性，以及它如何与提升生态系统的愿景相关联？

Yeah. That makes a Yeah. Lot of you know, maybe another topic that you can maybe build upon is some of the early thinking that you have in in this regard, you know, building that ecosystem from where it is is kind of early stage to, you know, continue to scale and maybe you could talk a little bit about Saku Lab and what that is and how important that is with regards to your vision for kind of elevating the ecosystem?

谢谢你的提问。目前我们公司有三个开放实验室：Sakharov Square、TMEI Lab和Sakharov Cambridge。Sakharov的宗旨是支持初创企业、小型生物技术公司或学术科学家开展早期研究，最终实现商业化或为患者创造价值，同时帮助青年科学家培养创业精神。

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for, yeah, your questions. So now we have three open laboratories in this company, and one is Sakharov Square, and one is TMEI Lab, and the last one is Sakharov Cambridge. And the purpose of Sakharov is supporting startups or biotechs, small ones, small ones, and or or an academia scientist to pursue their early science for the, you know, final goals and, of course, you know, commercialization or value for patients, but support early stage scientists to get, you know, entrepreneurship and grow their science more to, you know, commercialization or final product.

因此我们在日本支持小型活动以培养创业能力或商业化知识，这是Sakura Tsukuba的主要目标。团队所在的TME（肿瘤微环境）实验室是日本肿瘤学研究的重要基地，专门从事TME科学研究。

So support very small activities in Japan to get entrepreneurship or some knowledge for monetization or commercialization. That's a big purpose of this Sakura Tsukuba. And the team I love in this is a different place in Japan, but TME means tumor microenvironment. Very, you know, big, you know, part of oncology research in Japan. And we have one of our open laboratory is specialized for TME science.

非常有意思。确实。

And Very interesting. Yeah.

最后是Sakura Cambridge。虽然Sakura Tsukuba和Sakura Cambridge都冠以'Sakura'之名，但目标略有不同。正如我所说，日本和美国生态系统完全不同——Sakura Tsukuba支持日本各类科学研究，而Sakura Cambridge则专注于探索与Asterisk药物发现的潜在合作，其研究方向需符合我们的战略布局。

Last one is Sakura Cambridge. And, of course, you know, they Sakura Tsukuba and Sakura Cambridge both have the name of Sakura, but, you know, purpose is a little bit different because, as I mentioned, ecosystem in Japan and in United States completely different. So Sakura Tsukuba, we are supporting all type of science in Japan to pursue their science. But Sakura of Cambridge, we are exploring the potential partnership for, you know, drug discovery in Asterisk. So science in Sakura of Cambridge should be aligned with our strategy, but in Sakura Tsukuba, no limitation for the science.

因此，任何类型的科学都将受到樱花筑波的欢迎，因为如果我们专注于日本非常特定的领域，很难找到合作伙伴，因为生态系统还不够成熟。但在剑桥，如果我们不专注于特定领域，机会太多，反而很难为这个开放实验室找到合适的入驻者。所以名称虽然相似相同，但目的却截然不同。这就是对我们开放双树实验室的简要说明。

So any type of science will be, you know, welcomed for Sakura Tsukuba because if we focused on the very specific area in Japan, it's very difficult to to find, you know, a partner because ecosystem is not so mature. But, Cambridge, if we don't focus on the specific area, you know, we have too many opportunities, and it's very difficult to find out, you know, appropriate, you know, resident for this open laboratory. So name is, you know, similar and same, but, you know, purpose is really different different. That, you know, short explanation of our open double trees.

感谢您解释这一战略，这非常有道理，尤其是因为每个Saco实验室——剑桥的和东京的——都各自适应其环境。在波士顿和剑桥，你们更多从事业务开发和战略工作，必须聚焦于...

Thanks for explaining the strategy and that makes a lot of sense, especially because each of the Saco Labs, you know, one in Cambridge and you're one in Tokyo are each they're they're appropriate for their environment. They're aware of what in in Boston and in Cambridge, there you're doing it's more business development and strategic and you have to focus

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为机会范围太广。

Because of the range of opportunities.

是的，是的，而且...

Yes. Yes. And

而在东京，你们正在创建一个年轻的生态系统，需要对涌入的科学持开放态度，我认为这是个非常明智的策略。当你们这么做并思考时，或许回到您的个人历程——创造分子和推动生态系统，哪个更具挑战性？两者在不同层面上都很复杂。

then in Tokyo, where you're creating a young ecosystem, you need to be open minded to the science that's kinda coming in and so I think that's a really smart strategy and as you're doing that and as you think about this and maybe back to your, you know, kind of your personal journey, You know, what has been more challenging, creating a molecule or moving an ecosystem? Any comments? Each are complex in different ways.

是啊，是啊，说实话，挑战太多了，对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, so many challenges. You know?

当然，科学领域，发现新分子或新模式极具挑战性，但在日本，培育生态系统更为艰难。因为投资环境不佳，资金状况不理想。此外，日本科学家最缺乏的是创业思维。所以关键在于如何...

Of course, you know, science, you know, finding a new molecule or a new modality is very challenging, but, you know, growing ecosystem is more challenging in Japan. So because invest investment is not so good. The investment situation is not so good. And, also, biggest is entrepreneurship mindset in Japanese scientists. So how to, you know yeah.

是的，请详细说说。因为这对于一个正在变革的年轻生态系统来说很常见。我们在芝加哥首个基地建设门户时有过许多类似经历——虽然拥有众多优秀科学家，但他们普遍不熟悉创业流程，文化氛围更偏向学术研究而非承担风险和创新商业化——当然论文发表也很重要。但改变学者思维模式需要过程，比如在波士顿，你肯定接触过不少更具创业精神的MIT教授。

Yeah. Tell me tell me more about that. Tell me more about kind of where because this is very normal for a young ecosystem that's changing. We've had many experiences in building portal in our first location in Chicago and a lot of the experiences are similar in the sense that we had a lot of great scientists, but you know, they were not familiar with starting a company and the culture was maybe less around taking a risk and commercializing innovation and more around academic scholarly activities publishing papers which are very important as you know. But changing the mindset of the academic researcher in, you know, when you're in Boston, you know, I'm sure you're interacting with a lot of MIT professors that have a little bit more of an an entrepreneurial mindset.

或许你可以简要谈谈可以采取哪些措施？就像之前提到的，在Saco实验室这样的平台开展创业思维教育会是个不错的起点。说实话，

Maybe you could just comment briefly around what steps do you think could be taken to yeah. Like you were talking about before, educate around entrepreneurial mindset, you know, within the confines since you have Saco Lab, that's a good place to do some of that work, I would think. Honestly,

科学家们需要多方尝试，但不可能面面俱到。因此关键在于明确需要哪种外部合作来推动科研成果商业化或药物研发，这非常重要。

so, you know, scientists need to run a lot. But everybody, you know, can't, you know, have have everything. So right? So so I believe to know what kind of interaction and what kind of external partnership would be needed for their science to go out for commercialization or drug discovery. That's, you know, very important.

所以核心是知识。你们需要什么样的合作伙伴来推进？目前最欠缺的环节是什么？这是首要问题。

So knowledge. Yeah. So what kind of partner do you need for go forward? And what's the point you are lacking now? So that that's the first step.

他们不必精通金融、法律或知识产权等专业领域，但必须清楚需要与哪些专业人士互动——比如IP专家或财务专家。这类知识对日本科学家至关重要。

So they don't need to, you know, run about, you know, very financial, you know, expertise or, you know, legal expertise or IP expertise. But what kind of interaction do you need? So I need to interact with IP professional or finance professional. That type of, you know, knowledge would be very essential for scientists in Japan.

没错，说得很好。每个人都带着独特的专业技能和背景参与协作。我本人的背景就是金融领域，所以

Yes. No. That's really well said. Each of us bring our own unique specialized skill set and background, you know, to to the table. My own background is finance and so

哦，好的。

Oh, good.

要知道，我必须深入学习科学知识才能帮助筹集资金、创办公司，但我始终与科学家们保持紧密合作，因为我们彼此需要，对吧？我的意思是，要想做好科学研究并将分子疗法应用于患者，你需要资金，也需要科学，甚至需要更多。但帮助学术研究者明白你无需通晓一切，关键在于找到合适的人和合作伙伴。是的，要知道，迈出第一步是非常关键的，尤其是当你初次创办公司时。因为，如果做出错误决策，选择了错误的合作伙伴或监管路径，或者你的科学成果本可用于解决多个问题，却选错了方向。

You know, I've had to learn the science enough to be able to help raise capital, you know, and build companies and but I was always partnered very closely with, you know, scientists and because we needed each other, right? I mean, we we in order to do good science and move molecules to patients, you need money and you need you need science, you need more than that too, but helping the academic researcher understand that you don't need to know everything. There's but finding the right people and the right partner Yes. You know, to get started is really an important step especially when you first get that company off the ground. Because, you know, if you make the wrong decision, you choose the wrong partner or the wrong regulatory path or maybe you're solving maybe your science could be used to solve multiple problems.

但如果选择了错误的路径，可能就无法筹集到资金。所以所有这些因素都需要他人协助，帮助学术研究者思考他们的想法是否适合商业化。

But if you pick the wrong pathway, maybe you won't be able to raise money. So all these things can be contributed by other people, you know, to that academic researcher as they think about whether their idea, you know, should go into a company.

是的，谢谢。谢谢。翻译得很完美。

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Perfect translation.

是的，要知道，我对日本生命科学初创生态系统的崛起感到非常兴奋。我认为随着更多初创企业的诞生，尤其是与像Astellas这样的私营企业合作，好点子将逐渐转化为更具投资价值的机遇。我相信更多风投会对这些早期公司产生浓厚兴趣。我特别期待的是我们在SCUBA的初创训练营中的合作，有机会见到许多学术科学家，了解潜在机遇，建立友谊，并寻找机会将东京大学等机构的研究成果转化为公司，最好能在东京本地扶持这些公司成长。

Yeah. And, you know, I'm really excited, you know, about the the the rise of the Japanese life sciences startup ecosystem. And, you know, I think it will be interesting to watch as more startups get off the ground especially partnering with private industry like Astellas where, you know, the the good ideas start getting shaped into more investable opportunities. I believe more venture capital will become very interested in investing in some of those early stage companies. And, you know, one of the things that I'm particularly excited about is the partnership that we have around the startup boot camp in SCUBA and being present to get a chance to meet many of those academic scientists and get a sense for what the opportunities are there and begin to build friendships and look for opportunities to spin companies out, you know, of universities in Tokyo and ideally build help build those companies locally in in Tokyo.

或许你可以谈谈你对训练营的期待，以及它如何与你发展东京生态系统的战略相契合。

Maybe you could comment a little bit about what you're looking forward to with the boot camp and maybe how it fits with your strategy to develop the ecosystem in Tokyo.

是的，没错。你几乎涵盖了所有要点，我没有什么要补充的。确实如此。

Yeah. That's right. You know, that covers almost everything, and no no additional comments from me. But yeah. That's right.

我强烈期望，日本及周边东京地区的科学家们能从这个训练营中获取大量知识，并与你们建立起强大的合作与沟通网络。我的期望是，你们能走出应用范畴，与众多外部利益相关者互动并学习。那么，如何走出日本并获取美国等地的投资呢？抱歉。我想补充一点，现在举办这类训练营的时机非常好，因为日本政府正大力鼓励青年科学家利用政府资金发展新的核心初创企业。政府已决定为初创企业提供可能高达数十亿的资金支持。

And I strongly, you know, expect the, you know, scientists in Japan and surrounding, you know, Tokyo area also, you know, get a lot of knowledge from this this boot camp and know, you know, build up, you know, strong, you know, collaboration and communication network with you guys. And my expectation is go out from your app and interact with many, you know, outside stakeholders and learn a lot. So how to, you know, go to go out from Japan and how to get the investment from United States or so sorry. So one point I would like to add is now is a very good timing for having this type of boot camp because government, Japan Japanese government are now very, you know, strongly encouraged young scientists to, you know, develop new core startups by using government funds. And the government, you know, decided to have maybe billions of funding for startups.

因此，现在正是科学家们走出去的绝佳时机。这个训练营，我强烈期望它能成为一个良机，让大家认识到时机已至，合作伙伴即将到来，且许多日本以外的利益相关者对神经科学充满兴趣。这类知识正是我希望年轻科学家们了解的。

So now is a very good timing for the scientists to, you know, go out. And so, you know, this boot camp, I strongly expect this boot boot camp would be a good opportunity to know the timing is good and, you know, partnership is coming, and many, you know, outside outside of Japan stakeholders are interested in neuroscience. That type of, you know, knowledge I would like to I expect a young scientist to know.

我认为这非常棒。要知道，当你在学术实验室里孤立工作时，若与外界脱节，往往可能无法理解你正在解决的问题集是什么，对吧？我认为你所做之事的真正变革性在于，通过早期与这些学术科学家接触，你让他们了解到哪些治疗领域当前至关重要，以及哪些科学领域可以朝着解决这些问题的方向努力。通过开放和连接，你不仅在学术界与初创企业及私营部门之间架起桥梁，还在全球范围内建立联系，探索吸引其他地方资金的机会，了解美国风投的兴趣所在。创造一个开放共享理念的环境，我认为这将加速进程，这是个非常明智的策略。

I think that's great. And, you know, as you you know, you're working in isolation in an academic lab but not being connected to the outside means oftentimes you may not understand what's the problem set that you might be solving, right? And I think what's really transformative about what you're doing is by engaging early with those academic scientists is you're exposing them to what what are the therapeutic areas that are, you know, very important right now and what what areas of science, you know, could be aimed in a direction to solve some of those problems again by opening up and by connecting, not only are you connecting, you know, from the academic to the, you know, startup and private sector, but you're connecting globally to see, you know, what's the opportunity to attract funding from other places, what are what are VCs in The United States interested in? And so by opening up and creating, you know, an inviting environment to share ideas Yeah. I think it will accelerate things and that's a very wise strategy that that you've undertaken.

在你看来，当前日本生物科技领域有哪些最令人兴奋的机遇？例如，哪些科学领域特别突出或在你眼中尤为强劲？

What are what are some of the most exciting areas of opportunity that you see in in Japan's biotech landscape at at this moment? For for example, you know, what what areas of science, you know, if any, stand out, you know, especially strong right now to you?

这是个很好但也很难回答的问题。不过我想说，这只是个人印象，但细胞治疗是个重要领域。由于山中伸弥教授因iPS细胞获得诺贝尔奖，基于这一基础科学，日本目前在细胞治疗领域拥有众多机遇。此外，日本人历史上就具有工匠精神。

It's a very good and difficult question, but I think I said, you know, kind of just a personal personal impression, but cell therapy. Cell therapy is one of, you know, very good area for Japanese scientists because, as you know, doctor Yamanaka, he's a winner of the Nobel Prize for IPS cell. So based on this, you know, basic science, so now there are so many opportunities in Japan for cell therapy. So I think therapy is one of big area. And in addition to cell therapy, you know, historically, you know, Japanese Japanese are very, you know, kind of, you know, craftsmanship, you know, type of people.

因此，构建新治疗模式——比如工程生物制剂、双特异性抗体或ADC等——对日本科学家而言是个大有可为的领域。当然这只是我的个人看法。

So building a new modality, for example, you know, engineering bio biologics, bispe bispecific antibody or ADC, and, you know, this type of, you know, new modality building would be a good place for a good field for Japanese scientists. But just my personal impression.

不，这正是我想问的。非常棒。特别是关于不同学科交叉的观点——工程学与生物医学的结合，以及已经或即将产生的新治疗模式，想想就令人兴奋。要知道，目前还有那么多未攻克的药物靶点。

No. That that's what I was asking. Really cool. Yeah. And just that whole point around, you know, different disciplines, so engineering and, you know, biomedicine and the new modalities that have already or will come from that is pretty pretty cool to think about, you know, there are so many unsolved drug targets.

或许这些新方法能成功应对您早先提到的细胞疗法问题。是的，我们Portal团队对细胞疗法在多种适应症中的应用前景仍充满热情。科学发展迅速，随着科技进步，细胞疗法不仅能成为患者的突破性治疗手段，未来还将通过新方法提高其成本效益并拓展给药途径。

Maybe these new modalities will be successful in addressing and to your earlier point around cell therapy, yes, our team at Portal remains very excited about the cell therapy opportunity across a range of different indications. And that science is moving quickly and I think the more the science evolves, you know, not only can cell therapy be, you know, breakthrough treatments for patients, but over time, you know, new methodology to make the cell therapy the more cost effective and through different routes.

好的，不错。

Okay. Good.

它也可以成为整体解决方案的一部分。比如在美国，您提到的基因疗法、CRISPR技术，在长期未被攻克的罕见遗传病领域已展现出变革性潜力——就像最近运用CRISPR技术治疗罕见病婴儿KJ的案例。我和您一样，对细胞疗法和基因疗法充满期待。虽然需要更多时间，但这些治疗方式对患者的深远影响毋庸置疑。您认为我们应向创业家们传递哪些关键信息？

It it can can also be part of the equation as well. You know, in The United States, for example, you mentioned also kinda related gene therapy and, you know, CRISPR and, you know the ability to in the case of rare genetic diseases that have been unaddressed for so long recently you know baby KJ you know with the rare disease using CRISPR technology demonstrated just how transformative these types of treatments can be. So I'm like you, I get really excited about cell therapy, gene therapy. They it will take more time, but the there's no question the impact that those types of drugs or approaches can be for patients. What are some of the areas that that you think in the message that we can be bringing to your startup entrepreneurs?

关于与东京新兴初创企业的合作，团队需要哪些指导原则？特别是，虽然很多公司专注于治疗领域，但您是否观察到医疗科技或其他非治疗类应用也开始崭露头角？

Any guideposts for our team as we think about interacting with the young startups in Tokyo and in particular, you know, it sounds like a lot of these companies are focused on therapeutics, but are you seeing any other like med tech or things that start to move outside of the therapeutic applications?

是的。我们的核心目标是为患者创造价值，因此不仅限于疗法，医疗器械、智能手机应用等创新形式也非常适合这类业务。当然，作为药物研发公司，治疗仍是首要任务。

Yes. So our objective is, you know, bring value for patients. So not only for therapies, but also, you know, medical device or some, you know, applications, you know, know, smartphone app or apps or something like that. It would be very good for this type of activities. So, of course, you know, we are a drug, you know, development company, so therapy is a first priority.

但医疗器械或应用程序等创新形式也同样会受到欢迎。

But also medical device or apps or this type of these type of activities would be, yeah, welcomed.

这太棒了。Hide，我十分钦佩您的创业历程和敢于冒险的精神。作为科学家，面对诸多未知和分子研发的高失败率需要不断试错——科学本就充满不确定性。创业亦是如此。但回顾您的经历：从科学家到领导Astellas的AIRM部门担任总裁，再到如今开创这项可能重塑整个生态系统的伟大事业，您每次关键抉择都彰显了非凡胆识。

That's great. Hide, you know, I really admire your journey, you know, and the risks that you've taken, you know, both as a scientist, you know, as a scientist, there's a lot of unknowns. Right? A lot of trial and error, you know, to move a molecule downstream and there's a high failure rate, you know, because, you know, science is unpredictable. Entrepreneurship is kind of that way too, but when I look at your journey, you've taken many important risks, you know, you've moved from a scientist to, you know, leading AIRM, you know, at Astellas as a President and now taking on this new endeavor, you know, to build and create just massive impact, you know, on the ecosystem.

我是说，你看，在波士顿生活了三年，你就是这样一个人，愿意踏入未知领域并创造真实价值。能否分享一些见解或建议，给那些受到你旅程启发的观众们？有什么智慧箴言吗？

I mean, even, you know, coming to Boston living there for three years, these are you're a person who is willing to kinda go into the unknown and and make something real. Can you share any insights or advice, you know, to our audience of of people that, you know, are inspired by your journey, you know, any words of wisdom?

是的，谢谢。实际上我在波士顿期间跑了很多地方。未来会发生什么真的很难预测。

Yeah. Thank you. So yeah. Actually, I could run a lot during my stay in Boston. It's very difficult to, you know, predict what's happened in the future.

但我想说的是，走出欧洲吧，因为你的世界之外有许多未知，而学习那些你原本不了解的事物非常有趣。所以我用最简单的话总结：走出去，与陌生人交流，这很有趣。这就是我目前想说的。

So but I would like to say just to go out from Europe and because many unknowns outside of your world, and it's fun, very fun to learn a lot, which you didn't know. So very simple word for from me is just to go out and interact with unknown people, and that's that's fun. Yeah. That's that's it for me at this point.

太棒了，这正是创意诞生的地方对吧？不同的人，不同的思维方式，建立联系。我深受你取得的成就和在多个领域、多地达成的里程碑的启发。也很感谢有机会持续发展我们的友谊。

I love it. I love it, but that's where the creativity happens. Right? You know, different people, different mindsets, connecting the dots and I can I'm just sharing with you, I'm very inspired by what you've been able to accomplish and the many milestones in many different categories and also in different places. And and so it's it's inspiring and and I appreciate you know, the opportunity to you know, continue to build our our friendship over time as well.

关于即将到来的训练营，或是关于SACULAB的任何事项，你还有什么结语想分享吗？让大家了解你们的工作、互动方式，或是你想传达的关于SakerLab和整体开放创新战略的内容？

Any closing comments that you have with regards to the upcoming boot camp or anything about SACULAB that you'd like to share so that everybody kinda knows what you're doing and what how they could interact or, you know, what what are the things that you'd like to share with our audience about Mhmm. SakerLab and your overall open innovation strategy before we close out?

好的谢谢。我们Asura设立了SakerLab来支持日本年轻科学家。当然不仅限于日本，也包括其他国家，特别是亚洲企业，如韩国、台湾、新加坡等。

Okay. Thank you. So we, Asura, had SakerLab and to, you know, support you, new young scientists in Japan. And, of course, you know, not only for Japan, but also for other countries Mhmm. Especially Asian companies, Korea, Taiwan, or, you know, Singapore, etcetera.

但我想说的是：为你的科学成就感到自豪吧，你们的科研很棒。不要害羞，不要犹豫走出去，我们可以提供支持。安斯泰来在药物发现领域拥有丰富专长，不仅限于科研，还包括法律、知识产权、财务等商业专业知识，这些对你们的征程都很重要。无论你们从事何种科学研究，我们都能提供支持。所以别犹豫，随时与我们交流提问。

But my message is just to be proud of your science, and your science is great. And don't be don't be shy, and don't, you know, hesitate to go out, and we can support. Astellas has a lot of, you know, expertise for drug discovery, not only for science, but also, you know, legal, IP, finance, very, you know, crazy business type, you know, specialized knowledge would be needed for your, you know, journey. So we can support them regardless of your, you know, type of science. So don't hesitate to interact with us and ask us anything.

我们非常高兴能支持你们的科学研究。就是这样，Chromy。

We we are very happy to support your science. That's that's it, Chromy.

我非常欣赏你们的合作精神。我甚至很喜欢这个名字——开放创新，能参与其中并帮助激发和点燃整个生态系统，我真的非常兴奋。非常感谢你们今天参与播客节目，期待很快再见到你们。

I love your collaborative spirit. I love even the name, you know, Open Innovation and I'm really excited, you know, to be part of it in our next steps and helping to inspire and ignite the ecosystem. And so thank you very much for being part of the podcast today and I look forward to seeing you soon.

是的，谢谢。感谢你给我这个机会，也感谢你们出色的合作与精神。谢谢。

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for giving me opportunity giving me this opportunity, and thank you for your great, you know, collaboration and your spirit. Thank you.

感谢今天加入我们。这又是一期精彩的节目。希望你们喜欢今天与嘉宾的对话，并像我一样受到启发。期待两周后再次相聚。请访问我们的网站labratstounicorns.com。

Thanks for joining us today. It was another great episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with our guests today and were inspired the way I was. Looking forward to reconvening again in two weeks. Please visit our website at labratstounicorns.com.

我们欢迎任何评论、反馈和想法。如果你们希望我对嘉宾提出某些问题，或者有建议我们应该采访的人选。

We welcome any of your comments, feedback, ideas. If you want me to ask certain questions of guests or you have ideas of people that we should be interviewing.

就这样，再见。

That is all goodbye.