Figma CEO：为何AI时代下设计、工艺与品质成为初创企业的新护城河 | Dylan Field

我们争论了各种产品差异化的方案，大致形成了几个方向。

And we argued about different ways we could differentiate the product and kind of camp with a few directions.

实际上我还和团队及董事会开了个会。

And I actually had a meeting with the team and the board.

再次回到清晰度的问题：在这个差异化定位的情况下，我们如何创造清晰度，然后全力冲刺，因为时间所剩无几。

Just again, going back to clarity, how do we create clarity in the situation of how we differentiate and then sprint towards that because we don't have much time.

那次董事会会议得出的结论是：我们要通过让FigJam变得有趣来实现差异化。

And where we came out of was that board meeting was, let's go differentiate by making FigJam fun.

团队当时的反应是：什么？

The team was like, What?

我们要把趣味性作为我们的差异化优势？

We're going to make fun our differentiator?

现在回想起来，这绝对是正确的决策。

And in retrospect, it was absolutely the right move.

我们进行了设计冲刺，快速探索了各种功能创意和产品形态的可能性。

We did a design sprint where we're able to rapidly explore all these different ideas for features and ways to shape the product.

我记得那天我们大概讨论了20个创意方案。

I mean, I think we camped with like 20 ideas that day.

其中有几个最终被纳入FigJam，成为了极具代表性的功能。

A few of them made it to FigJam and became, I think very definitional.

比如光标聊天功能就是那天诞生的。

For example, cursor chat came out that day.

这次经历让整个团队认识到，只要目标明确，我们的推进速度可以有多快。

And I think it overall showed the entire team how fast we can move if we've got the right goal defined.

这也真正锻炼了我们的能力——看，我们完全可以开发第二个产品。

And it also really built up the muscle of, okay, we can go build a second product.

还能开发第三个产品。

We can build a third product.

我们可以持续扩展平台，真正覆盖从创意到产品的全流程。

We can keep going to expand the platform and really cover all the way from idea to product.

虽然需要构建的东西很多，但我们不可能建成一个购物中心那么庞大的体系。

That is a wide set of things that you need to build and we're not going to be able to build a mall.

我们不得不在某些地方合作，但让我们开始吧。

We had to partner in some places, but let's go.

这给了我们所需的信心。

And it gave us the conviction we needed.

哇，这真是个精彩的故事。

Wow, that is such a cool story.

有太多我想聊的事情了。

So many things I wanna talk about.

关于这个有趣的线索，很多人都在讨论如何让事情变得有趣、令人愉快。

I guess on this thread of fun, a lot of people talk about making things fun, delightful.

嗯，大多数人会说，不，我们没时间搞那些。

Well, most people are like, no, we don't have time for that.

我们得推销交易、完成交易、发布功能。

We gotta sell deal, close deals, ship features.

你从那次经历中学到了什么？

What have you learned from that experience?

因为这正是一个超级可操作的用例——仅仅通过增加趣味性就证明了它有多么成功。

Because that is a super trickable use case of just making it more fun helps prove that it like, made it how successful.

是啊。

Yeah.

你从中得到了什么启示？

What did you learn from that?

我认为Figma的Jam功能特别适合强调趣味性游戏。

I think FigJam is in particular a great place to emphasize fun play.

因为在头脑风暴中你试图做什么？

Because what are you trying to do during a brainstorm?

你是想让人们畅所欲言，分享他们的想法。

You're trying to get people to speak up, to add their thoughts.

那是在新冠疫情期间。

It was during COVID.

这是一个人们被迫居家隔离、封闭在家的时代，他们变得内向，视频会议时摄像头都关着。

This is an era where people were going inside themselves while they're locked inside of their home and sheltering in place and they were withdrawing and videos were off.

那么我们如何激发他们的创意和灵感呢？

So how do we draw out their ideas, their creative spirit?

其中一个方法就是创造有趣且友好的体验。

And one way to do that is just to have a fun welcoming experience.

我认为我们在FigJam中做的所有功能并不都适用于Figma Design。

I don't think all the things that we've done in FigJam apply to Figma Design.

Figma Design更像是...我们不想妨碍你的工作流程。

Figma Design is like a, we don't want to get in your way.

所以FigJam是个很酷的实验场所，可以尝试各种有趣好玩的概念。

So it's been a cool place to experiment with fun and playful concepts in FigJam.

在Play方面，我们在FigJam能做的比Figma Design更多。

We can do more there on the Play side than we can do in Figma Design.

在Figma Design里，如果我们用些花哨功能妨碍用户，他们可能会觉得烦人。

In Figma Design, if we get in people's ways with some quirky thing, they might get kind of annoyed.

但在FigJam里，他们会觉得'这很酷'。

In FigJam, they're like, cool.

所以上下文很重要。

So the context matters.

顺便说一句，我很喜欢你当时的态度，就像在说‘伙计们，我觉得我们应该做FigJam，来吧，一起干吧’。

By the way, I love that you were the person being like, guys, I think we should make FigJam, like, come on, let's do it.

而大家都说‘不不不，这想法糟透了’。

And everyone like, no, no, no, it was terrible.

你喜欢这种‘即使你很想做也未能如愿，人们强烈反对你’的情况吗？

Love that you wanting to do this did not make it happen, that you had to, that people were pushing back on you that hard?

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，确实有些事是我坚持推动才实现的。

And I mean, there's certainly things that I've pushed through over time.

有些进展顺利，有些则时机不对。

Some of them have gone well, others wrong time.

但确实，对于第二个产品来说，从一到二非常困难。

But Yeah, I think for a second product, it's very hard to go from one to two.

从二到N就容易多了。

Going from two to N is much easier.

就像从一到二很难。

Like going one to two is hard.

嗯，整个脉络就是如此。

Well, it's of all that thread.

我想谈谈这个。

I wanted to talk about this.

所以你们现在有这么多产品了。

So you have so many products now.

有FigJam，有Slides，Sites是独立的...好的，产品I，还有我们要讨论的Make。

Have FigJam, you have Slides, Sites is a separate Okay, product I and then Make, which we're gonna talk about.

Draw。

Draw.

Buzz。

Buzz.

Draw。

Draw.

等等，还有什么来着？

Wait, wait, what else?

Draw是一种更偏向矢量插画和矢量编辑的工具。

So Draw is a way to kind of lean more into vector illustration, vector editing.

Buzz是生产图形工作流。

Buzz is a production graphics workflow.

你可以从模板开始，保持品牌一致性，然后批量生成素材。

So you can go from a template, keep on brand, and then make lots of assets out of that.

看到人们如何使用它真的很酷。

It has been really cool to see how people have been using that.

当然还有开发者模式。

And then also dev mode, of course.

从设计到代码的转换是我们一直在努力优化的方向。

Going from design to code is something that we're always trying to make better.

我们现在有开发者模式和开发者模式MCP，你可以通过开发者模式MCP在IDE、代理开发环境或任何你选择的环境中直接使用Figma的上下文。

And we have dev mode and also dev mode MCP now where you can use basically the context from Figma via dev mode MCP in your IDE, your agent development environment, whatever of choice.

最令人惊叹的是你能直接调用这些上下文并快速开始工作。

And it's amazing to you that ability to just pull in that context and rapidly get started.

虽然还有很多需要改进的地方，但看到这些进展真的很棒。

So lots to improve, but it's really cool to see.

好的。

Okay.

没想到你们有这么多产品，所以这个问题问得更有价值了。

Did not know you had this many products, so even better to ask this question.

很多公司都在思考：我们应该什么时候推出第一个扩展产品？

A lot of companies are thinking about when should we launch our first expansion?

我们何时突破这个阶段？

When do we go beyond that?

在这个过程中你学到了哪些对其他创始人可能有帮助的经验教训？

What are a couple lessons you learned from going through that that might be helpful to other founders?

对我们来说，我们有个框架：我们要追踪一个工作流程。

I think for us, we had a framing of we're gonna go trace a workflow.

如果你有个想法，可以通过幻灯片表达，或者直接在FigJam上与团队头脑风暴。

If you've got an idea, go express it through slides or hop in FigJam and brainstorm with your team.

好的，下一步是什么？

Okay, what's next?

开始设计。

Go design.

进入Figma设计界面。

Hop in Figma design.

如果你之后需要进入开发环节，DevMode会帮你无缝衔接。

If you need to go to development after that, DevMode will help you take you there.

DevModeMCB。

DevModeMCB.

关于Draw，我认为存在这样一个论点：曾经有一个时代，互联网上所有内容都是闪动的，更加动态、狂野甚至混乱，质量未必很高，但那是一个与当今完全不同的互联网时代。

And then for Draw, I think there's a thesis of there was an era where everything was flashed in the internet, things were more dynamic, a bit more wild and perhaps chaotic, not always high quality, but that was a different era of the internet than where we ended up with.

过去十年左右盛行瑞士极简主义，当史蒂夫·乔布斯宣布Flash已死时，设计风格转向了拟物化的瑞士极简风，之后我们就一直停留在这个阶段。

And over the last decade or so with Swiss minimalism, And there's some point where Steve Jobs declared Flash dead and then went skeuomorphic Swiss minimalist and then we kind of stuck there.

我认为设计趋势将回归更具表现力的方向，而Draw正是这个趋势的一部分。

I think we're gonna swing back to being way more expressive and draw as part of that story.

我们如何通过工具赋能用户实现这种表达？

How do we enable people to go do that with our tools?

Buzz就是个典型案例，就像我们讨论过的其他功能一样遵循工作流程。

Buzz is an example of, I think like all the others we've talked about following the workflow.

需要分析用户在Thingma Design中的行为，找出那些更适合从Figma Design中剥离出来独立成模块的需求。

What are people doing in Thingma Design and what are they asking for that is probably best to actually take out of Figma Design and say make its own surface.

以Buzz为例，很多需求围绕品牌与营销的协作——品牌方希望建立机制确保营销物料不偏离品牌调性。

So in the case of Buzz, a lot of requests around, okay, brand and marketing are collaborating and brand wants to create a way for marketing to stay on track, not ship marketing assets that are totally off brand.

营销团队则希望快速批量生成物料。

Marketing wants to really quickly do bulk creation of assets.

虽然可以强行把这些功能塞进Figma Design，但这会让营销用例变得复杂，同时增加品牌用例的复杂度。

You could try to pack all that in Figma Design, but it would be complex for the marketing use case and it would add complexity on the brand use case.

就像我们注意到有些幻灯片是用Figma Design制作的，将其提取出来做成了Figma Slides，白板功能则单独放在FigJam里，对Buzz和开发模式也采取同样的处理方式。

Just like we noticed there's slides made in Figma Design, pulled it out and made Figma Slides, whiteboarding, just pulled that out in FigJam, do the same thing for Buzz, same thing for dev mode.

网站也是如此。

Sites as well.

人们希望完成整个流程。

People wanna complete the journey.

我已经设计好了一个网站。

I've designed a website.

然后呢？

Now what?

我想要发布它。

I wanna ship it.

那么我们该如何创建一个界面让他们发布呢？

So how do we create a surface to let them publish?

我认为Make这个产品很有趣，因为它几乎涵盖了我数据产品的整个流程。

And I think with Make, it's interesting because it kind of stretches across the entire journey for my data product.

你可以输入提示词，然后就能获得一个可运行的应用程序。

You can go give a prompt and then actually get a working app as a result.

而面临的挑战是，如何让用户对这个成果感到自豪？

And the challenge there is, okay, how do we make this something that people can be really proud of?

单靠AI是无法实现这一点的。

And AI won't get you there alone.

AI目前仍处于平均法则的范畴，当然还需要更好的提示词和辅助。

AI is still in the realm of kind of law of averages and better prompting and help, of course.

但我们如何让用户——不仅仅是设计师、产品经理、开发者，甚至是产品流程之外的人——从一开始就能通过Make平台真正探索基于各种想法的可能性？

But how do we allow our users to, not just designers, product managers, developers, people outside of the product process in the first place, how do we make it so that they can come in and really explore the options based of ideas through Make?

因为现在很多人都想把原型带入讨论，而不仅仅是一份产品需求文档。

Because so many people now wanna take a prototype into a conversation, not just a PRD.

至少在我的产品评审和产品讨论中，我觉得原型胜过静态模型，而静态模型又胜过大量文字描述。

And I don't know, at least my product reviews and product conversations, I feel like prototypes beat static mocks and static mocks beat lots of words.

所以是的，我们非常欢迎探索如何实现这一点。

So yeah, it's very welcome to figure out how to do that.

还有就是如何开发出可运行的应用程序，如何构建内部工具。

And then also how to get to a working app, how to get to internal tools.

这些都是非常好的应用场景。

Those are all really good use cases too.

我喜欢这种通过追踪工作流程来决定扩展方向的策略。

I love this just strategy of following the workflow as a way to think about where to expand to.

那么问题就变成了：哪里是最大的市场？

And then it's just a question, where's the biggest market?

我想，下一个最容易上手的细分市场是什么？

What's easiest next segment to get on board, I imagine?

有没有什么因素会让你认为不能总是根据总体可寻址市场（TAM）来限制设计决策？

I Is there anything that's would say you can't constrain by always sorting, designing by TAM.

我们从Figma Design中学到了很多这方面的经验。

We learned that very much from Figma Design.

没有任何理由或数据表明，世界上有足够多的设计师能让女性设计成为...

There is no reason, no data that we could look at that said there are enough designers in the world for female design to be

一个巨大的

a big

市场。

market.

但我们的趋势判断是正确的。

But we've got the trend right.

设计师数量激增，关注设计的人也越来越多，因为如今设计已成为差异化因素，决定成败的关键。

And the number of designers rapidly increased, number of people that care about design because design is now the differentiator, it's how you win or lose.

在这个软件数量以前所未有速度增长的世界里，越来越多的人正投身其中，呈现垂直上升态势。

So more people all the time in this world where the amount of software is increasing faster than ever, it's going vertical.

如今我们身处一个以设计论成败的世界。

Now we're in a world where design is how you win or lose.

因此更多人希望参与设计流程，这扩大了重视设计的市场。

So then more people care to be part of the design process that expands the market for favoring design.

但我认为必须坚持做正确的事。

But I think you have to do what is right.

你必须不断强化优势，不能总是只盯着下一个最大的潜在市场规模。

You have to go from strength to strength and you can't always just be obsessed with what's the next biggest TAM.

这真是极具洞见的观点。

That is such a good insight.

它正源于你所说的——当初没人认为Figma有大的潜在市场，而你证明了他们是错的。

And it comes from exactly what you said, which is no one thought Figma was a large TAM and you proved them wrong.

是的，回想Figma初创时，我们查阅劳工统计局数据，当时全球设计师数量显示约为25万。

Yeah, think there was, we looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics at the start of Figma, was like 250,000 designers in the world was what it said.

当时可能是错的，但那也是一个时间点，行业即将发生变化。

Probably wrong at the time, but also it was a point in time and the industry is about to change.

这真有趣。

It's so interesting.

对于那些正在考虑创业想法的创始人来说，这里有什么经验教训？

What's the lesson there for founders that are thinking about startup ideas?

因为显然这并不总是奏效。

Because obviously this doesn't always work.

你不能总是凭空创造市场。

You can't just create a market always.

在设计方面你是否看到了某些东西，让我们意识到可以将其打造成一个巨大的市场？

Is there something there about design that you saw that like, okay, we can actually make this a massive market?

这是一个我可以事后诸葛亮的地方。

This is a place where I can definitely describe it all looking backwards.

但如果完全诚实地说，当时更多是直觉。

But if I'm gonna be totally honest, at the time it was more intuition.

我觉得我直觉上认为价值正在向上迁移。

I think I had an intuition that the value was moving up a stack.

现在回头看，我能更清晰地描述它。

And now looking back, I can describe it more.

就像，我们从托管服务器到AWS和云服务，从盒装软件到应用商店，开发工具也在不断改进。

It's like, okay, we went from managed servers to AWS and cloud, box software to app stores, developer tools were getting better.

同时这与人们能接触到设计更精良的消费体验相结合，无论是iPhone及其应用，还是Facebook或Gmail，人们对所有软件的期望都在提高。

And also this was combined with people getting access to better consumer experiences that were better designed, whether it be an iPhone and apps in the iPhone or Facebook or Gmail, the expectations were rising for all software.

然后感觉就像博弈论突然变得合理了。

And then it was kind of like the game theory just makes sense.

你必须提升产品品质，真正改进设计。

You have to make your product better and really improve your design.

这进而引发了设计人才的招聘需求。

And that led to design hiring.

由此产生的问题，我们也必须解决。

And then the problems that emerged out of that, we had to solve too.

如何在大规模运作中保持设计一致性？

How do you keep design consistent on scale?

当你领导大型设计团队时，如何确保规模化效率？

How do you make sure there's efficiency at scale when you're leading a large design team?

我认为在AI时代这个问题变得更加突出。

I think this is happening now too even more in the age of AI.

价值正在向更高层级转移。

And the value is moving up the stack even more.

这就是为什么设计比以往任何时候都更能成为差异化因素——因为不仅仅是开发工具略有改进。

That's why the design is the differentiator more than ever because it's not just dev tools are a little better.

而是现在能非常快速地生成大量代码。

It's, wow, you can create a lot of code really fast now.

在从零到一的阶段，这简直不可思议。

In the zero to one case, it's extraordinary.

在已有代码库的规模化阶段，生产力提升——根据代码库情况——我认为是适度到中等水平，虽然还不惊人，但正在持续进步。

In the one to 100 case with a established code base, productivity gains are, I'd say, modest to moderate depending on your code base, not exceptional yet, but they're improving all the time.

我想谈谈你提到的make以及相关内容，因为它们之间联系非常紧密。

I wanna talk about make and all this stuff that you talked about because it connects really well.

但在那之前我还有个问题想问，是关于'价值实现时间'这个概念。

But I have another question I wanna get to before we do that, which is around this idea of time to value.

我在与Figma员工交流时经常听到这个术语，说你特别痴迷于缩短价值实现时间，尤其是在产品即将发布时，你会说'让我们缩短价值实现时间'。

I heard this a lot this term when I was talking to people that work at Figma that you're obsessed with this idea of time to value, especially when a product is about to launch, you're just like, let's increase time to value.

什么是价值实现时间？

What is time to value?

为什么它如此重要？

Why is it so important?

我认为关键是要让用户快速进入产品并立即体验到产品的独特魅力。

I think it is important to get someone into a product and very quickly have them experience some special sauce, something that's amazing about the product.

比如说，当你进入Figma Design看到一个空白画布时，我们如何让你以最快速度创作出内容？

And if they're not able to go Like for example, you go into Figma Design, you see a blank canvas, how do we get you to create something as fast as possible?

当你使用Figma Make时，我们如何让你迅速获得提示并拥有绝佳体验？

If you go into Figma Make, how do we get you to prompt and have an awesome experience very quickly?

我认为关键在于缩短用户看到产品真正价值、体验那个惊艳时刻所需的时间。

And I think that shortening the time to seeing and having that incredible moment and seeing the true value of the product.

例如在Figma Design中，我们能否让你快速体验到多人协作的乐趣？Figma Jam也是如此。

For example, in Figma Design, can we get you to have a collaborative multiplayer moment, same with FigJam?

让用户看到产品能为你解锁什么可能性，这点至关重要。

That's super important to see what this could unlock for you.

我来给你读一段Warp创始人Zach Lloyd的话，Warp官网是warp.dev。

Here, I'll read you a quote from Zach Lloyd, who's the founder of Warp, which is at warp.dev.

各位，我想你是这家公司的投资人，而且

You guys, I think you're an investor in the company and

问我是他什么非常荣幸能成为。

asked I'm him what very honored to be.

扎克太棒了，Warp是个超棒的产品。

Zach's amazing and Warp is a great product.

我爱Warp。

I love Warp.

如果你成为Lenny通讯的年度订阅用户，就能免费获得Warp一年使用权。

You get a year free of Warp if you become an annual subscriber of Lenny's newsletter.

详情请访问lennysnewsletter.com。

Check it out at lenny'snewsletter.com.

点击产品通行证。

Click product pass.

我之所以推荐它，是因为Warp实在太出色了。

And, yeah, I included it because Warp is incredible.

这简直像魔法般的体验。

It's just like a magical experience.

我简直不敢相信这怎么可能？

I'm like, how is this possible?

没有它我以前是怎么工作的？

How did I ever work without this?

老婆最棒。

Wife is best.

在Warp上睡着了。

Falls asleep at Warp.

她用它来做什么，就当作一个快速的话题转变？

What does she use it for just as a quick tangent?

她所有的不同代理都在运行。

She's got all of her different agents running.

她用它进行开发，但面对的是更复杂的代码库之类的东西。

She's doing development with it, but with more complex code bases and whatnot.

酷。

Cool.

就像在构建。

So like building.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为我用它不是为了构建。

Because I use it for not building.

我只用它处理所有的shell相关事务。

I use it for just all the shell stuff.

比如，我想安装某个软件包。

Like, I wanna install some package.

我遇到了一堆错误。

I have no all these errors.

不喜欢的话，就帮我修复吧，AI。

Don't like, just fix it for me AI.

这很酷，你可以这样做。

It's like cool, here's what you can do.

去使用Warp吧。

Go warp.

好的，以下是Zach说的，因为我问他从Dylan那里学到了什么，以及他为领导力带来了什么？

Okay, so here's what Zach said, because I asked him just like what have you learned from Dylan and what do you bring to your leadership?

他说他鼓励我们重点关注的不仅是创新功能，还要持续重视修复和阻止那些可能妨碍用户采用Warp的问题。

And he said specific things that he's encouraged us to focus on are not just innovative features, but a consistent emphasis on fixing and blocking on fixing and block the blocking issues that might prevent a user from adopting warp.

团队需要处理很多基础但不太有趣的工作，但从Figma的经验来看，他认为消除障碍对留住用户和添加炫酷新功能同样重要。

And there's a lot of blocking and tackling that isn't always the most fun part for the team to work on, but from Figma, think he's learned that removing the blockers is as important for retaining users as adding cool new stuff.

完全同意。

Absolutely agree.

这一点我深有共鸣，并经常和团队讨论。

That's one I deeply resonate with and talk about it all the time with my teams.

设计Thing的历程中，我们既要打造基础必备功能，也要开发炫酷的新特性。

The journey of making Thing design was a lot of table stakes features had to be built as well as the shiny, cool new stuff.

我们甚至曾专门成立过一个叫‘障碍清除’的团队。

And we literally at some point had a team that was called blockers.

他们逐个击破这些问题。

And it just went in one by one, struck them down.

每解决一个障碍，我们都能看到留存率和激活指标的提升——数据图表上的变化简直令人惊叹。

And each time we saw improvement in retention, improvement in activation, the metrics for as we addressed each one, you could literally see the change in the graph is like pretty wild.

太棒了。

Amazing.

好的。

Okay.

所以这与'价值实现时间'的整体理念相关——如果某些因素阻碍了你使用产品并发现其价值，通常应该优先解决这些问题，而不是追求新潮功能。

So this is connected to this whole idea of time to value of just like if something is keeping you from even using the thing and finding value, it often makes sense to prioritize that above something new and cool.

是的，必须保持平衡。

Yeah, you have to have a balance.

我是说，如果只做基础功能，产品就不够酷也不惊艳，至少要加入一些让人眼前一亮的元素。

I mean, if you only do the table stakes features, you don't have a cool product and you don't have something amazing or awesome, you have to sprinkle in at least something around why is this exciting?

产品的发展方向是什么？

Where is this going?

人们能相信什么？

What can people believe in?

你必须对产品有愿景，并在用户初次使用时就能传达给他们，即使是早期版本也要做到。

And you have to have a vision for the product that you can communicate to user when they're first trying to use it, even for your first or early releases.

我认为这非常重要。

Think it's very important.

我觉得仅有MVP（最小可行产品）是不够的。

I think it's not enough to have the MVP.

至少得有让人稍微惊艳的东西。

You gotta have something that's a little bit awesome at least.

是啊。

Yeah.

你们花了很长时间才推出MVP。

You guys took a long time to launch your MVP.

你们在发布前花了多长时间？

How long was it before you guys launched?

太久了。

Too long.

我们2012年8月成立公司，2013年6月开始全力投入Figma开发，2015年12月进行封闭测试，直到2016年10月才推出多人协作的正式版。

We started the company August 2012, started working hardcore in Figma in June 2013, closed beta was December 2015, didn't do GA with multiplayer until October 2016.

然后到了2017年，我们才首次实现盈利。

And then 2017, we made our first money.

千万别学我们这样。

Don't do that.

动作要更快些。

Go faster.

关键教训不是'如何打造完美产品'。

And the lesson is not, okay, how do I make the awesome thing?

不能因为纠结每个细节就永远不发布。

I'm gonna sweat every detail and I'm never gonna ship.

真正的经验是：你需要先推出一个能让用户看到愿景方向的雏形。

The lesson is you just gotta get something that you can have that people can see the vision of, where you're going.

但千万别重蹈我们的覆辙。

But don't don't do what we did.

要更快进入市场。

Get to market faster.

真希望我们当时能做到这点。

I wish we had.

这就是那段原声剪辑。

There's the there's the sound bite.

Stripe为全球众多快速发展的企业处理大规模复杂交易，包括《福布斯》AI 50强中的78家以及超过半数的《财富》100强企业。

Stripe handles the massive scale and complexity of many of the world's fastest growing enterprises, including 78 of the Forbes AI 50 and more than half of the Fortune 100.

Atlassian、Figma和Urban Outfitters等企业使用Stripe创建完全品牌化定制的结账页面，支持超过125种全球支付方式。

Enterprises like Atlassian, Figma, and Urban Outfitters use Stripe to create fully branded and customized checkout pages with access to more than 125 global payment methods.

我的播客邀请过更多Stripe高管不是没有原因的。

There's a reason I've had more leaders from Stripe on this podcast than any other company.

他们深谙如何打造既具扩展性又受用户喜爱的优秀产品。

They know how to build great products that scale and that people love.

而Stripe远不止支付业务。

And Stripe is a lot more than payments.

他们还拥有行业领先的计费解决方案，以及专为提高结账转化率而优化的结账体验。

They've also got a category leading billing solution and a highly optimized checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion.

加入Salesforce、OpenAI和百事等行业领袖的行列，使用Stripe加速业务增长并推动全球GDP发展。

Join the ranks of industry leaders like Salesforce, OpenAI, and Pepsi that are using Stripe to grow faster and to grow the world's GDP.

访问stripe.com了解Stripe如何助力您的业务增长。

Learn how Stripe can help your business grow at stripe.com.

说到快速行动和把握时机，我们来聊聊Figma Make。

Speaking of moving fast and not waiting too long, let's talk about Figma Make.

对于不了解Figma Make的听众，你已多次提及，能否用最简单的方式解释什么是Figma Make？

For people that don't know what Figma Make is, you've mentioned a couple times, but just what's the simplest way to understand, what is Figma Make?

是的。

Yeah.

如何通过简单输入提示，就能轻松将想法转化为可实际分享和团队使用的原型？

How do you put in a prompt and really easily get your idea onto a prototype that you can actually share and use with your team?

又如何将其转化为可部署的工作应用，发布到网上或内部使用以加速工作流程？

And how do you go also to working application that you can ship, put on the web, or use internally to speed up your workflows.

人们通过探索更动态的原型设计提升了设计工艺，同时也能创建那些通常无法完成的原型（比如产品案例），这些方式非常有趣。

The ways that people have both up leveled craft on the side of design by exploring more dynamic prototyping, but also how they've been able to create prototypes when normally they wouldn't otherwise, in the case of, for example, product, has been really interesting.

至少在我们团队以及许多拜访交流的客户中，一旦具备更大范围探索选项空间的能力，整个流程就会改变——产品经理不再对设计师说'能帮我画出这个东西吗？'

And at least in our team, but also in many of our customers that we're visiting and talking with, it really changes the process once you have the ability to explore this option space in a bigger way and PMs are no longer saying to the designer, Hey, can you draw this thing out for me?

这释放了设计师的时间，让他们能更深入地探索需要专注的内容。

That frees up designer time to go explore more deeply the stuff they need to go into.

同时也让任何人都能参与初步讨论，共同探索更广阔的选择空间。

And it allows anyone to kind of add to that first conversation of where should we go and look further and wider and broader at the option space.

所以这确实是我们最优先的事项，也是我们正在快速改进的方向。

So, yeah, I think it's something that is a top priority for us and is also something that we're rapidly improving.

比如昨天我们推出的功能：当你从Papermake获取界面后，可直接导入Figma设计。

I mean, yesterday we launched a feature, once you take a screen from Papermake, bring it into Figma Design.

因为有时需要通过迭代提示来推进，有时则需要深入细节进行调整。

Because sometimes the right thing to do is to prompt your way with iteration, and sometimes you just wanna get in the details and actually tweak things.

这时就需要手动操作才能获得理想效果。

And you need to do it by hand to get exactly what you want.

然后必须将这些上下文无缝带回创作流程。

Then you gotta bring that context right back into the go make.

因此实现这个闭环过程至关重要。

So making that round trip happen, incredibly important.

我们将在互操作性方面做更多工作，让你能走得更远、迭代更快，因为当你拥有AI输出时，制造环节其实只是个起点。

And so much more we're gonna do in the interoperability standpoint to make it so that you can go further, iterate faster because the make is really just a starting point when you have an AI output.

通常那不是你的终点。

Usually that's not where you end up.

好的，不错。

Okay, cool.

我确实想聊聊这个，不过我先分享一下。

I definitely wanna talk about that, but I'll just share.

我最近在试用Figma的Make功能。

I was playing with Figma make.

上周我让它直接克隆Figma应用，效果出奇地好。

The past week I asked it just clone Figma at the app and it's like very good.

我当时说，我要推出个竞品，想想看。

I said, I'm gonna launch a competitor, think.

天啊。

Oh man.

当心点。

Watch out.

就像是，应该再试一次那个提示词。

It's like, should try that prompt again.

我是说，自从我上次测试后，我们已经把Make功能改进很多了。

I mean, we made make a lot better since I last tested it.

确实厉害。

Legit.

我正在制作随着颜色和字体变化的正方形和圆形，效果超赞。

I'm making squares and circles over changing colors and fonts and it's legit.

我甚至还更新了品牌风格，让它看起来更像Figma，居然成功了。

I even added like, I was like update the branding to look more like Figma and it worked.

然后我为Dylan和Lenny的播客节目做了个落地页，本来想用我们的真实照片，但可能因为版权问题没法实现。

And then I made a make a landing page for a Dylan and Lenny podcast episode and it was it can't, was like make the photos of us, the real photos, but I think probably for copyright reasons it couldn't do that.

其实你也可以直接修改代码。

Well, can also tweak a code.

我是说，你可以手动上传自定义图片。

So I mean, you can go in and put in custom image.

这工作量太大了Dylan，实在太大了。

It's too much work for me, Dylan, it's too much work.

你只需要选中锚点工具点击编辑，右侧就能直接查看代码。

Just you go to the point tool and then point edit, and then you can go directly to code on the right.

然后你直接替换URL就行，顺便提醒下。

And then you can just replace the URL and just FYI.

好吧，我超爱我们现在这种实时技术支持模式。

Okay, I love this live support we're doing.

看到了。

I see it.

好的好的，我这就去弄。

Okay, okay, I'm gonna do it.

我会附上链接。

I'll link to it.

我会链接到我的节目笔记。

I'll link to my show notes.

让我跟进一下你刚才在这里的讨论。

Let me follow-up thread you just had here.

目前看来，在AI应用原型设计领域涌现的用例主要是为产品团队制作原型。

So right now, the use cases that seem to be emerging in this world of AI app prototyping are like prototypes for product teams.

还有构建实际生产应用这一方面。

There's like building real production apps.

正如你所说，另一个方向是设计构思，将想法转化为Figma设计稿再进行开发。

That seems to be one, when another is just like you said, designing, like thinking through ideas and then moving it to Figma and then building something.

你认为Figma在其中扮演什么角色？

Where do you see Figma make in that?

你觉得这个领域未来会如何发展？

And where do you think this evolves over time?

你认为这些应用最终会演变成未来人们构建产品的主要方式吗？

Do you think these apps end up in this space just being like, here's how people will build product in the future?

还是说原型设计和内部工具（我认为这是另一个方向）？

Or do you think prototyping and internal tools I think is the other one?

你觉得最终主要会集中在这个方向吗？

Do you think that's where it ends up being mostly?

我认为它将在各公司中非常普及。

I think it's gonna be very widespread across companies.

创建原型和软件的能力。

The ability to go create prototypes and software.

我认为这是一件很棒的事情，将一个想法、原型或不够完善的内部分工具打磨成令你自豪的产品，仍需要付出很多努力。

And I think it's a great thing and it still takes a lot to go from an idea or a prototype or some internal tool that's not very polished to something that you're proud of.

因此我认为这对设计流程是锦上添花的，能让更多人参与进来，引入更多商业限制的上下文，但仍需要大量迭代优化。

And so I think this is additive to the design process, brings more people in, brings more context in around business constraints, but also still requires quite a lot of iteration refinement.

这个闭环的准确性至关重要。

And that loop is so important to get right to.

但没错，我们首要的使命是以惊艳的方式完成原型设计场景的极致优化。

But yeah, our first mission that we have to accomplish and do it in an incredible way is making it awesome for the prototyping case.

我们同时推进的第二优先级——虽然重要性仅次于原型场景——是产品实际应用落地的实现路径。

But the second one that we're also working on, and I'd say it's again, second to the prototyping case, but so important is how do I go to something that's actually working?

这可能是针对更健壮的原型方案。

And that could be for a more robust prototype.

也可能是你实际交付并构建商业闭环的产品，或是内部分工具。

It could be for something you ship and actually build a business around, or it could be an internal tool.

这些应用场景都很有价值，对公司整体都有意义，但原型设计才是我们最闪耀的领域，必须确保做到极致。

And all those are interesting use cases and all of them have relevance for the wider company, but prototyping is where we're really starry and making sure that we are awesome at.

另外需要强调的是，让设计人员能顺畅使用设计系统并在FigmaMake中保持一致性至关重要。

Another thing to mention is I think it's super important that people are able to use their design system and be consistent in FigmaMake.

所以我们正投入大量精力于此。

And so we're putting a lot of effort into that.

目前这个功能还处于比预期更初级的阶段。

Right now, I'd say it's still in an earlier phase than we want.

我们在这方面还有大量规划，后续你会看到我们的持续发力。

We have a lot more we wanna do here and that you'll see us do here.

我认为，关键在于不能让创意因视觉表达不符合他人预期而夭折。

And it's, I think, critical that ideas don't die on the vine because you've got a visual expression that doesn't match what everyone else expects.

有时人们会仅仅因为看起来不对就将其过滤掉。

Sometimes people will just filter them out because they don't look right.

如果能从一致性的基础出发，创意就能根据其价值被评估，而不是被说'哦，你用了太多错误元素'。

If you can actually start with something that's consistent, the idea then gets evaluated on its merits rather than it being, oh yeah, well, you used to a lot of the wrong elements.

看起来不太对劲。

It doesn't look quite right.

顺着这个思路，很多AI构建应用看起来都很相似，大家已经厌倦了这类产品。作为设计前沿的Figma，

Along those lines, a lot of the AI building apps all kind of look alike and everyone's just getting tired of seeing those sorts of products and being Figma, being at the forefront of design.

你们在产品设计上有何不同之处，使作品显得出众？

Is there anything you've done differently in how you create this product to make the designs look really good and different?

是的，确保视觉输出具有极高品质对我们至关重要，这显而易见。

Yeah, I mean, making sure that we have incredible quality with visual outputs, that is super important to us, obviously.

这是我们持续思考和努力的方向。

So that's something that we're constantly thinking about and working on.

不便多说，但...好吧。

Won't say much more, but that's Oh, fair.

神秘感。

Mysterious.

另外，我认为它内置于平台这点也很重要，这为互通性创造了可能——让Make与Figma Design形成闭环，同时让Make功能渗透到各个适用场景。

Well, also just, I think the fact that it lives within the platform is very important too because that unlocks more opportunity to make it so that we can make it interoperable with the rest of the platform, bringing stuff from Make into Figma Design, completing that loop, but also exposing Make and all the other places that can live.

我们对此非常兴奋。

We're very excited about that.

还有MCP也是，让你可以通过MCP来获取Make。

And then MCP as well, making it so that you can go use MCP to pull for Make.

Make不应该是唯一的终点。

Make shouldn't be the only end destination.

我们需要创建一个能与其他生态系统对话的生态系统。

We need to create an ecosystem that talks to other ecosystems.

所以我们一直在大力投入MCP整体建设，这包括Make2。

And so we've been putting a lot of effort into our MCP in general, and that includes Make2.

我看到你们登上了排行榜榜首。

I saw you guys topped a leaderboard.

你们发推文分享了一些研究报告。

You tweeted some research report.

那是关于什么的？

What was that about?

那真的很酷。

It was really cool.

就像是有人写了一篇学术论文，探讨如何正确比较不同输出结果。

It was like someone had done basically a academic paper on, okay, what is the right way to compare different outputs?

我很高兴看到我们名列前茅。

And I was pleased to see that we came out.

我记得是第二名。

I think it was second to the top.

所以还有进步空间。

So still work to do.

看到Figma出现在学术论文中确实令人兴奋又新奇。

And yeah, it's exciting and cool to see Figma make in an academic paper.

这对我来说还是头一遭。

That was a new one for me.

学术文献很少会提到我们的产品。

I don't usually see the academic literature mention our products.

他们具体是怎么研究的？采用了什么方法？

What were they, how were they approaching it?

并不是每

Not every

主要是成对比较法，虽然我不认为这是最完美的方式。

Pairwise comparison mostly, I'm not saying that's like the perfect way.

执行成对比较的人员选择也需要非常谨慎。

It requires a lot of intention about who was doing the pairwise comparison too.

但视觉输出确实是我们Make产品非常重视的环节。

But yeah, visual output is something that we really care about for Make.

所以研究的是'哪个设计更好'这类问题吗？

So it was like, which of these is a better design?

那项研究是在评估更优输出还是更准确的输出？

That what that research was looking at or better output or more correct output?

对。

Yeah.

我认为初始条件的选择至关重要。

And I think the starting points just really matter.

所以如果能让人更快到达正确的起点，那将非常有帮助。

So if you can get people to the right starting point sooner, that's extraordinarily helpful.

有很多方法可以帮助人们做到这一点。

And there's a lot of ways to help people do that.

我想聊聊你们首次推出AI产品的时候。

I wanna talk about when you guys first launched your AI product.

那其实是在Config大会那年，我在Config采访你的时候。

This was actually the year of Config when I interviewed you at Config.

我记得你当时有点心不在焉，因为反响并不热烈。

I remember you got, you were very distracted because there was the reaction wasn't amazing.

其实那是在我们采访后不久发生的，但我想做那个采访时我已经精疲力尽了。

It actually came a little bit after our interview, but I do think I was exhausted by the time we did that interview.

所以抱歉。

So apologies.

我猜那天采访前你肯定忙了一整天吧。

I imagine that was a long day in our interview.

那次发布发生了什么情况？

What so what happened with that launch?

我知道你们不得不撤回一些功能。

I know you guys had to pull some stuff back.

我想那次经历让你们学到了很多。

I imagine it taught you a lot.

到底发生了什么？

What what happened?

你学到了什么？

What'd you learn?

我们内部曾将这个功能称为'初稿'。

So we had this feature that internally we called first draft.

后来不知为何，我们将其更名为'制作设计'——首先这个名字就起错了。

Then for some reason, we changed the name to make design, which first of all, by the way, wrong name.

我们从未打算让它成为'给你设计，完事大吉'这样的功能。

We never intended it to be like, here's your design, you're done.

它实际上只是个起点，这点我们心知肚明。

It was really a starting point and we knew that.

这是我们AI探索早期的成果，当时完全没有使用花哨的训练或用户数据。

And this was early on in our AI journey And the approach was basically nothing with fancy training or user data.

本质上就是让语言模型像拼乐高积木一样根据提示词进行组装。

It was all about, okay, you've got an LM assembling LEGO pieces and doing that according to a prompt.

所以我们构建的方式非常基础。

So it's very basic in the way we built it.

但它能产出相当酷炫的成果，你可以编辑这些成果，更改颜色、排版等主题元素。

And it could get you to some pretty cool outputs so you could edit the outputs and change colors, typography, some of the parts of that theme.

我认为尽管时间过去不久，但当时整个行业对AI的讨论语境与现在截然不同。

And I think that the industry then, even though it wasn't that long ago, was in a very different place in terms of the conversation around AI than we are today.

而且人们用我们未曾充分测试的方式考验了这个功能。

But also people put us through his paces in ways that we hadn't fully done.

他们发现的其中一个现象是：如果输入'做个天气应用'，它生成的结果会酷似苹果天气应用。

And one of the things they found was that if you typed in make me a weather app, would make you something that looked pretty much similar to the Apple weather app.

考虑到这完全在我们的掌控范围内，问题本应通过更好的质量保证和更仔细地检查所有子组件来避免，我在想，如果这是我们训练好的模型只需要调整一些训练后处理方式之类的情况，我的感受可能会有所不同。

And given that that was under our control and that was really about we should have had better QA and really looked at all the subcomponents more closely, I felt like maybe I would have felt differently if it was we had trained this model and now we gotta tweak some of the ways that we're post training or whatever.

但采用我们当时的方法，我觉得这本来是可以预防的。

But with the approach we were using, I was like, this was preventable.

这是一次质量保证的失败。

This is a QA failure.

所以我撤回了它。

And so I pulled it.

实际上是在我们第二次配置期间发生的，因为我们完成了主要配置后就去了新加坡进行第二次。

It was actually during our second config cause we did the main one and then we went to Singapore into the second.

如果上次我们一起做播客时你觉得我很疲惫，那这次我更疲惫，因为从旧金山到新加坡的时区转换简直要命。

And if I was tired during your last podcast we did together, I was even more tired then because the Singapore time zone shift is brutal from SF.

当然，我们在执行方式上的沟通本可以做得更好，但我认为当时做的是正确的决定。

And so, I'm sure we could have had better communication about the way we did it, but I thought it was the right thing to do.

就算时光倒流，我还是会做同样的选择。

Would have done the same thing if you teleport me back.

之后我们进行了大量质量检测工作才降低了风险。

And then we reduced it after we did a lot of QA.

所以我认为从这件事得到的启示首先是：必须全面测试产品，特别是当涉及面很广的时候。

And so I think that maybe takeaways from that, first of all, you got to put it through its paces, especially when you've got a wide surface area that can be explored through something like this.

你必须真正理解输入内容，确保做好质量检测工作，并推动产品和团队保持高标准。

And you really have to understand what are the inputs, make sure you do the QA work and pushing the product and the team to hold up that high bar.

你们具体是怎么进行质量检测工作的？

How do you actually do this QA work?

这对当今许多AI公司来说是个大问题。

This is a big problem for a lot of AI companies these days.

它们实在太不可预测了。

They're just so nondeterministic.

你必须给予它们所有这些自主权。

There's all this autonomy you gotta give them.

你们是怎么做到的？

How do you do this?

是像这样吗——你们是与其他人合作完成大量工作，还是有一个特别擅长AI质量保证的团队？

Is this like, do you work with someone else that does a bunch of work for you or is it a team that just is really good at AI QA?

我们做了大量工作来研究如何进行评估，同时也在持续改进我们的流程。

We have done a lot of work to figure out how we do evals and we're also continuing to evolve our process.

所以没错，这是你必须真正专注的事情。

So yeah, it's something that you have to be really focused on.

而且我认为很容易长时间依赖感觉。

And I think that it's easy to go on vibes for too long.

有些人就是凭感觉行事，这样也能有所收获，但不够严谨。

Some folks just kind of trust the vibes and that'll get you somewhere, but it's not rigorous.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我们已经做过很多期关于评估的节目了。

We've had a lot of episodes on eval.

所以我听到的核心意思是：熟练掌握评估技术就是避免这些问题的解决方案。

So essentially what I'm hearing is just getting good at evals is the solution to avoiding those problems.

解决方案的一部分，是的。

Part of the solution, yes.

解决方案的一部分。

Part of the solution.

回到Make这个话题，为了让人们在思考这个领域的其他参与者时有个心理模型，你们对Make的定位有什么与众不同之处吗？

Going back to Make, just so people have this mental model in their head when they think about other folks in the space that they're aware of, Is there a way you're positioning Make that is different?

还是说最终它们都会变成某种原型、内部工具或完整的生产应用？

Or is the idea eventually they all will kind of be prototypes, internal tools, full production apps?

或者你对Make的发展方向有不同看法？

Or do you think about it differently where Make is going?

如果你把视角拉远，再次思考，这里更宏观的重点是什么？

If you just kind of zoom out and, again, it's what's the bigger point here?

如果你想在软件领域获胜，就必须通过设计实现差异化。

If you wanna win in the game of software, you need to differentiate through design.

重申一次，这就是决定胜负的关键，工艺很重要。

That's again, how you win or lose, Craft matters.

我们已经不再处于'够用就好'的时代了。

And so we're no longer in this era of good enough is fine.

现在的情况是'够用远远不够'。

It's like good enough is not enough.

那只是平庸。

It's mediocre.

想要获胜就必须做到出色，最好是卓越。

You got to get to great if you wanna win, preferably excellent.

我认为通过Figma Make，我们能做的越多，就越能帮助您找到一个出色的起点，然后在此基础上迭代、完善，最终创造出卓越成果，同时也能拓宽思路，探索更多可能性。

And I think that with Figma Make, the more we can do to help you get to a great starting point, then also iterate, refine from there towards something excellent and also go wide, explore the option space.

我们有很多可以做的事情，我认为这些将会形成非常显著的差异化优势。

There's a lot we can do that I think will be very, very differentiated.

其中有些功能已经实现，有些即将推出。

And some of that's already there, some is coming.

而且我认为这是我们产品界面进化速度最快的一次。

And this is, I think, the fastest we've ever evolved to product surface.

因此我对Figma功能快速成长的速度感到非常自豪，同时也在持续优化，让用户体验变得越来越出色。

So I've been really proud of how fast we've been able to grow Figma makes abilities and also just make it more and more excellent for our users still on that journey.

我们始终在改进，未来几周或几个月内您将看到我们发布的新功能，进展速度还会继续加快。

And we're always improving, but you will see things in the next weeks, months in terms of what we're shipping and the progress will continue to accelerate.

真令人着迷。

Fascinating.

所以我理解您看到的核心机遇是创造卓越、精心设计的体验，而不仅仅是达到良好水平。

So what I'm hearing essentially is the opportunity you see is making great, excellent, well designed experiences, things that are not just good.

我认为这是想要获胜就必须全面贯彻的策略。

I think it's what you have to do across the board if you wanna win.

这真是太酷了。

Such a cool thing.

我非常期待看到你们如何实现这一点。

I'm so excited to see how you guys do this.

这正好连接到我之前跳过但很想回头讨论的问题——关于品味这个概念。

This connects to something I wanted to ask about that I skipped, but I'm excited to come back to it, this idea of taste.

你经常谈到品味对开发优秀产品的重要性，人们听到这个就会想，品味到底是什么，我有品味吗，我不知道。

You talk a lot about the importance of taste in developing great products, it's something people hear, they're like, what the hell is taste, do I have taste, I don't know.

你会如何描述品味是什么，最简单的理解方式是什么？有没有什么测试能帮助人们判断自己是否有好品味，比如让他们意识到‘哦，我其实不明白你在说什么’。

How would you describe just like what is taste, what's the simplest way for someone to understand taste, And is there like a test that like you find is helpful for people to see if they actually have good taste, something that's like, no, I actually don't know what you're talking about.

你是说品味测试吗？

You mean a taste test?

品味。

A taste.

没错。

Exactly.

我认为从品味说起，就像设计一样有无数定义，但我总是回归到：你对事物的观点是什么，以及你如何形成这些观点？

I think starting with taste, mean, there's a million definitions of taste just like design, but I come back to what's your point of view on things and how do you develop your point of view?

我觉得有些人可能天生对一切都有更强烈的偏好。

I think there's some people maybe are born with stronger preferences about everything.

有些人则不那么在意。

Some folks don't care as much.

他们不够刻意，但任何人都可以主动培养。

They're not as intentional, but anyone can definitely lean into this.

这就像一个循环：好的，我正在经历某种感官体验。

It's just this loop of, okay, I'm having an experience of any sense.

也许我在看艺术品。

Maybe I'm looking at art.

也许我在听音乐。

Maybe I'm hearing music.

也许我正在吃东西，品尝某种味道。

Maybe I'm literally eating food and tasting something.

但是，我喜欢它吗？

But like, do I like it?

我不喜欢它吗？

Do I not like it?

为什么？

Why?

好的，现在深入一点。

Okay, now go further.

构建你的知识库，理解更大的背景是什么？

Build your repertoire, understand what is the greater context?

是什么传统导致了这件事？

What is the canon that led to this thing?

在哲学层面上，你对这条引导大家至此的道路有哪些认同或异议？

And where do you disagree or agree philosophically with the path that brought everyone there?

我认为你越是经历这个循环，接触得越多，就越能精炼你的品味。

And I think the more you go through this loop and the more you're exposed to, the more you can refine your taste.

我不认为这会让每个人都成为品味创造者。

And I don't think that leads everyone to becoming a taste maker.

我认为真正的品味创造者需要具备0.01%的天赋，能够在历史探索的不同方向间进行调和，或拓展出全新领域。

I think that is a 0.01% skill to be a true taste maker, to be able to interpolate between the different directions people have explored historically or expand into something that's brand new.

不是每个人都能开创文学新流派，也不是每个人都能成为科特·柯本那样的人物，或是从根本上发现新的美学或艺术运动。

Not everyone's gonna go create a new genre of literature or not everyone's gonna be like Kurt Cobain or fundamentally find a new aesthetic or new art movement.

但我认为，对于那些能围绕‘品味是什么’构建清晰框架的人来说，这确实是项至关重要的能力。

But I think that for those who can create an articulate framework around what is taste for us, that is really important skill.

然后我觉得，很多人能匹配现成的框架，但能创建框架的人却不多。

And then I think people can a lot of people can basically match a framework, not many people can create the framework.

哇。

Wow.

这个回答太精彩了。

That is such an incredible answer.

让我接着问几个问题。

So let me follow-up here.

首先是，有没有某种品味测试能让你判断‘这个人很有品味’？

One is just, is there some kind of taste test that you find of like, here's, okay, this person has great taste.

而你的观点是，即使起点不高也能培养这种能力。

And then your point is that you can develop this even if you don't start.

那么对于想提升品味的人，你有什么建议？

So what's one tip for someone that wants to develop their taste?

我认为关键是要通过接触新事物来拓宽视野，比如发现不同领域、不同媒介之间的交叉关联和联系，越多越好。

I think, again, it's just the more you can expand your viewpoints by looking at new things, like finding the cross correlations, the links between different areas and different fields, different mediums, the better.

此外要反思为何要为自己创建框架，培养这种内在的策展能力非常重要。

And I think then reflecting on why creating framework for yourself, just building that internal curatorial ability is very important.

还有就是要以好奇心看待人类创造力的每种表达形式，学习之后提炼自己的思维和观点，并愿意重新审视过去的认知。

And I think, yeah, how do you look at every expression of human creativity that you can be curious, learn, but then refine your own thinking, your own viewpoints, be willing to revisit the ones you've had in the past.

这正是成就卓越品味的途径。

That's what leads to great taste.

这里面还涉及到判断力的问题。

And there is something about judgment in there too.

品味中隐含的意思是，有些东西是好的，有些则不好。

Implied in taste is that some things are good and some things are bad.

所以我认为你自己要愿意在这方面保持高标准的判断力。

So I think you to be willing to lean into that yourself in terms of being high judgment.

但我也觉得产品领域最优秀的设计师能够随时切换这种判断模式。

But then also I think the best designers on the product side can turn it on and off.

他们可以说，我有自己的品味。

They can go, I have my own taste.

我知道自己喜欢什么。

I know what I like.

然后说，好吧，你要追求的是这个。

And then, okay, you're going for this.

这可能和我的喜好不同，但我可以配合。

And that might be different than what I like, but I can match it.

品牌也是如此。

Brand as well.

确实，关于产品设计和构建方式可能是完全不同的讨论，但这可能是更通用的答案。

And yeah, it's a totally different conversation maybe about product design and how to build it too, but that's the more general answer maybe.

不是要为难你，但说到具有非凡品味的人，除了像史蒂夫·乔布斯这样显而易见的例子，你脑海中会浮现谁吗？不一定列举所有品味出众的人，只是有没有想到谁？

Not to put you on the spot, but is there someone that comes to mind when you think of this person has great taste that maybe isn't an obvious, like a Steve Jobs, maybe another leader, don't know, someone that's There won't be an exhaustive list of all people that have amazing taste, but just anyone come to mind?

是的，Figma有很多品味出众的人。

Yeah, a lot of people with great taste at Figma.

我非常幸运。

I'm very lucky.

我来列举几个。

I'll list a few.

我认为是我们的创意总监Damian、产品设计团队的Marchin、编辑Amber。

I think Damian, our creative director, Marchin on our product design team, Amber, our editor.

但还有我们最近聘请的一位我认为品味极佳的人——Laura Donna。

But also one person we've recently hired that I think has incredible taste is Laura Donna.

她是我们的新任首席设计官，刚从Meta跳槽过来。

She's our new chief design officer, just came over from Meta.

还在适应Figma的工作环境。

And still getting to know her in sort of the Figma context.

我是说，今天应该是她入职的第四天？记录显示是9月26日。

I mean, I think this is her fourth day or recorded on the September 26.

但我已经见识过太多能充分展现她卓越品味的案例了。

But already I've just seen so many examples where her taste is really, really strong.

有趣的是，她其实是音乐科班出身，后来才转行进入设计领域。

And it's interesting actually, she grew up as a musician and then went into the field of design.

回到跨领域学科连接性的话题，我确实认为这其中大有玄机。

So going back to that cross area, cross field discipline connectivity, I definitely think there's something to that.

说到这个，这档播客里有多少人在投身商业和产品前曾是专业音乐人，这比例简直惊人。

To that point, it's wild how many people on this podcast were very serious musicians before they got into business and product.

我注意到其中钢琴演奏者特别多。

Like a lot of piano players, I'm noticing.

是的。

Yep.

哦，天哪。

Oh, man.

所以那里肯定有些东西。

So there's definitely something there.

也许在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，最后一个问题。

Maybe a final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

如果你要思考未来产品开发会是什么样子，比如五年或十年后，十年太长了，我们不考虑。

If Oh, you were just to think about how product development will look in the future, say in five or ten years, ten years, let's forget that, that's too long.

就说五年后，你觉得会是什么样子？

Say in five years, what do you think that looks like?

你认为在人们构建产品和公司方面，最大的不同会是什么？

What do you think will be most different in how people build product and build companies?

过去五年我们看到的趋势，在未来五年会加速发展。

The trend that we've been seeing for the past five years is the trend that it's gonna accelerate in the next five years.

那就是向新兴角色的转变。

And that's a shift to emerging of roles.

我只是认为我们看到越来越多的设计师、工程师、产品经理、研究人员等这些参与产品开发流程的不同角色涉足其中。

I just think that we're seeing more designers, engineers, product managers, researchers, kind of all these different folks that are involved in the product development process dip their toe into the roles.

我们实际上围绕这个做了一些研究。

And we actually did some research around this.

看到结果相当有趣。

It was pretty interesting to see the results.

72%的受访者表示，像Make这样的AI驱动工具是角色和职责扩展的主要原因之一。

So 72% of respondents said AI powered tools like Make are one of the top reasons behind the expansion of roles and responsibilities.

我认为部分原因在于AI让每个人都觉得自己也需要变得更全能。

And I think part of that is that AI makes everyone feel the need to be more of a generalist too.

这其中有些耐人寻味的深层含义。

There's kind of a meta there, which is interesting.

56%的非设计人员表示，他们大量参与至少一项以设计为中心的任务，如原型设计或视觉品牌探索。

56% of non designers said that they engage a lot or a great deal in at least one design centric task like prototyping or visual brand exploration.

我们一年前曾对类似受访群体做过相同调查，这个数字比去年上升了12个百分点。

And we'd actually done that question a year before with a similar respondent set, and it was up 12 percentage points from a year ago.

也就是从44%增长到了56%。

So from 44% to 56%.

53%的受访者认为即使有AI，仍需要深厚知识才能做好测试，这个比例让我觉得很有意思。

And 53% of respondents said that they agree that even with AI, you still need deep knowledge to do a test well, which I thought was fascinating that it was 53%.

这既表明人们觉得'用AI就能搞定一切'（我认为这种想法可能有误），也显示出对全能型能力的追求和尝试新领域的意愿。

Both indicates that I think there's some amount of, okay, you can do something with AI and be done, which I think might be wrong, but also an impulse towards more generalist abilities and the willingness to go dip your toe in new waters.