从ChatGPT到Instagram再到Uber：全球热门产品背后的低调设计师 | 彼得·邓

你曾创建并领导了Facebook动态消息功能，将Messenger作为独立应用推出，还发布了ChatGPT企业版。关于从构想到服务数十亿用户的成功之道，你学到的最重要一课是什么？

You built and led Facebook News Feeds. You shipped the Messenger app as its own app. You launched ChatGPT Enterprise. What's an important lesson you've learned about what it takes to succeed building something from idea to one to billions?

必须像下棋那样提前规划好每一步。行动前要深思熟虑，建立能让你持续加速的系统。

You have to plan your chess moves out in advance. You have to really think before you act and build systems that were gonna let you go sustainably faster.

你学到的最反直觉的经验是什么？有时候产品本身其实并不重要。

What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned? Sometimes your product actually doesn't matter.

在Uber工作时我领悟到这点，因为本质上，价格和预计到达时间才是Uber的产品。从整体视角看，我们人类消费的是产品的全部体验。这不是说不用修复漏洞，只是它远不如人们更在意的事情影响重大。

At Uber, I learned this because, really, the price and the ETA at Uber was the product. Looking at it from a holistic perspective, we humans consume the entirety of the product. It's not to say that you shouldn't fix the bug, but it doesn't have as much of an impact as something that is more important to people.

你认为AI将彻底改变但人们尚未充分意识到的具体领域是什么？

What's one specific thing you think will change in a big way with AI that people don't think enough about?

教育领域将会变革。我九岁的儿子当时创建了一个定制GPT，输入任何主题它都能生成包含英语全部字母的句子。这难道不令人震撼吗？我已经能感受到他大脑神经的重塑过程。

Education is gonna change. My son, he was nine at the time, built a custom GPT that you can type in any topic, and it would give you a sentence that had every letter of the English alphabet. Isn't that mind blowing? I can already see his brain rewiring.

你在招聘时最看重什么特质？

What's one thing you look for in people you hire?

如果六个月后还需要我告诉你该做什么，那就是招错人了。这能帮助我和对方进入更高层级的协作——目标不在于是否达成某个关键结果，而在于我们是否校准到位？六个月后是否能变成由你来告诉我需要做什么？

In six months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person. It helps me and the person operate on a different level where the goal is not, did you hit this OKR? The meta goal becomes, are we calibrating enough? Are we actually getting to a spot where in six months, you're the one telling me what needs to be done?

关于成为优秀产品人需要具备什么特质，你有什么心得？

What's something you've learned about what it takes to be a great product person?

我认为产品经理可分为五种类型。第一种是

I think there are five different types of product managers. Number one is

今天，我的嘉宾是Peter Dang。Peter可能是你从未听说过却最具影响力的低调产品领袖。我常说，最优秀的产品人不是那些在Twitter和LinkedIn上分享建议的人，而是那些忙于工作无暇发声的人。Peter正是这种典范。他曾任OpenAI产品副总裁，负责ChatGPT的产品设计与工程，并推动发布了ChatGPT企业版、语音功能、记忆功能、桌面端、自定义GPT等多项成果。

Today, my guest is Peter Dang. Peter is maybe the most under the radar impactful product leader that you have never heard of. I often say that the best product people are not the people on Twitter and LinkedIn sharing advice, but the people who don't have time to do that because they are too busy doing the work. Peter is the epitome of this. He was VP of product at OpenAI, where he oversaw product design and engineering for ChatGPT and helped ship ChatGPT Enterprise, voice, memory, desktop, custom GPTs, more.

他还主导组建了公司首个增长团队。作为Instagram首位产品负责人，他与Mike和Kevin密切合作，监管包括内容分享、广告增长在内的所有产品开发，甚至协助搭建了设计和用户研究体系。在Uber担任乘客端产品负责人期间，他全面优化了乘客应用，显著提升了拼车接送和机场服务体验，并带领团队推出了Uber预约服务（现年业务规模近50亿美元）。在Facebook近十年间，作为第四位产品经理，他创建并领导团队开发了新闻推送产品、独立通讯应用，以及照片、群组、主页和个人资料等功能。

He also oversaw and built their first growth team. He was the first head of product at Instagram where he worked closely with Mike and Kevin and oversaw all product development, including on content sharing ads growth, even helped build out their design and user research functions. He was also head of the rider product team at Uber, where he oversaw everything in the rider app, including big improvements to pickups and drop offs in Uber Pool and airports. He also helped the team launch new products, including Uber Reserve, which is now approaching a $5,000,000,000 a year business. He also spent nearly ten years at Facebook as their fourth ever product manager, where he built and led the team behind the current News Feed product, the standalone messenger app, also photos and groups and homepage and profiles.

他还担任过Airtable首席产品官，帮助公司系统化产品构建并转型至企业级市场，也曾领导Oculus产品管理。如今作为Felisys普通合伙人，他将毕生所学以投资者身份赋能更多创业者。这是他首次参与播客并公开分享经验，各位将有幸聆听真知灼见。特别感谢Eric Antinow、Nick Turley、Lauren Motomedi、Joanne Jang和Sandeep Jain为本次对话提供问题与话题。

He was also chief product officer at Airtable, where he helped the company systemize how they build products and transition to enterprise. He also led product management at Oculus. These days, he is general partner at Felisys, where he's able to bring everything he's learned to more founders as an investor. He has never done a podcast before or shared any of these lessons or stories publicly, so you are in for a real treat. A huge thank you to Eric Antinow, Nick Turley, Lauren Motomedi, Joanne Jang, and Sandeep Jain for contributing questions and topics to this conversation.

若喜欢本期节目，请记得在常用播客平台或YouTube订阅关注。成为我年度通讯订阅用户还可免费获赠Bolt、Linear、Superhuman、Notion、Perplexity、Granola等优质产品年费会员，访问lenny'snewsletter.com点击bundle即可查看。现在有请Peter Dang。鉴于许多听众正在开发AI产品，我非常荣幸能邀请Paragon创始人兼CEO Brandon Fu参与对话。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products, including Bolt, linear superhuman notion, perplexity, granola. Check it out at lenny'snewsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you Peter Dang. Many of you are building AI products, which is why I'm very excited to chat with Brandon Fu, founder and CEO of Paragon.

嗨，Brandon。

Hey, Brandon.

你好Lenny，感谢邀请。

Hey, Lenny. Thanks for having me.

集成功能对AI产品变得至关重要，原因何在？

So integrations have become a big deal for AI products. Why is that?

集成对AI具有双重战略意义：首先，AI产品需要接入客户业务数据（如Google Drive文件、Slack消息或CRM记录）；其次，要实现自动化办公，AI代理必须能跨第三方工具执行操作。

Integrations are mission critical for AI for two reasons. First, AI products need contacts from their customers' business data, such as Google Drive files, Slack messages, or CRM records. Second, for AI products to automate work on behalf of users, AI agents need to be able to take action across these different third party tools.

Paragon在其中扮演什么角色？

So where does Paragon fit into all this?

由于构建这些集成极其耗时，Paragon提供嵌入式平台，让工程师能在数日内（而非数月）完成从RAG数据接受到代理操作等全场景的产品集成开发。

Well, these integrations are a pain to build, and that's why Paragon provides an embedded platform that enables engineers to ship these product integrations in just days instead of months across every use case from RAG data ingestion to agentic actions.

根据我的亲身经历，维护工作比初次构建还要困难得多。

And I know from firsthand experience that maintenance is even harder than just building it for the first time.

正是如此。我们认为产品团队应将工程精力集中在竞争优势上，而非集成上。这就是为什么像u.com、AI twenty one等数百家公司使用Paragon来加速其集成战略。

Exactly. We believe product teams should focus engineering efforts on competitive advantages, not integrations. That's why companies like u.com, AI twenty one, and hundreds of others use Paragon to accelerate their integration strategy.

如果你想避免在客户所需的集成上浪费数月工程时间，请访问useparagon.com/lenny查看Paragon。本期节目由Pragmatic Institute赞助，他们是产品专业知识的可信领导者。Pragmatic Institute通过专为现实世界成功设计的课程、研讨会和认证，帮助产品专业人士将想法转化为影响。三十多年来，他们已培训了超过25万名来自谷歌、微软和Salesforce等公司的产品领导者，为他们提供构建和扩展市场制胜产品的实用策略。Pragmatic的全职讲师每位都拥有超过25年的实际领导经验，教授经过验证能带来现实成果的策略。

If you wanna avoid wasting months of engineering on integrations that your customers need, check out Paragon at useparagon.com/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Pragmatic Institute, the trusted leader in product expertise. Pragmatic Institute helps product professionals turn ideas into impact through proven courses, workshops, and certifications designed for real world success. For over thirty years, they've trained more than 250,000 product leaders at companies like Google, Microsoft, and Salesforce, equipping them with practical strategies to build and scale market winning products. Pragmatic's full time instructors each bring over twenty five years of hands on leadership experience, teaching strategies proven to deliver real world results.

这不仅仅是关于你学什么，还关乎与谁一起学习。完成课程后，你将加入一个超过4万名产品专业人士的活跃社区。你将参与有意义的对话，与同行和导师合作，并获得直接接触讲师的机会，以完善你的策略并保持趋势领先。使用代码Lenny20在pragmaticinstitute.com/lenny可享8折优惠。

And it's not just about what you learn. It's also about who you learn it with. Completing a course connects you to an active community of over 40,000 product professionals. You'll engage in meaningful conversations, collaborate with peers and mentors, and gain direct instructor access to refine your strategies and stay ahead of trends. Get 20% off with code Lenny20 at pragmaticinstitute.com/lenny.

彼得，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎参加播客。

Peter, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

谢谢。我非常激动能来到这里，深感荣幸。期待在这里度过愉快的时光。

Thank you. I'm so thrilled to be here. Really honored. Looking forward to having a great time here.

在我们准备这次对话时，我们讨论了很多应该关注的内容。我们将要谈论的有很多。但你提到的一点非常有趣，我特别想从这里开始，那就是你一直觉得自己无法说出真正思考和感受到的一切，因为你身处企业之中，公关人员让你保持信息一致，而这是你第一次感到可以自由分享。

As we were preparing for this conversation, we were jamming on what we should focus on. There's so much that we're gonna talk about. But something that you said was really interesting, and I'm really excited to start with this, which is that you've you've always felt that you haven't been able to say all the things you really think and feel because you've been within corporations, PR people, keeping you on message, and this is the first time that you feel free to share.

第一次。

First time.

好的。首先，这种感觉如何？其次，告诉我们一些你一直想分享但终于可以谈论的事情。

Okay. So first of all, just how does that feel? Second of all, tell us something that you've been wanting to share that you could finally talk about.

嗯，感觉真的很好。所以让我——我喜欢你以一个辛辣的问题开始。让我分享更多背景。我来这里是为了更自由地发言，但并不是你想的那样。我不是来泄露任何公司的秘密。

Well, it it feels really good. So I'll I'll let me ask I love it that you're starting with a spicy question here. And let me share some more context behind it. It's you know, I'm here to speak more freely, but it's not really what you think. I'm not here to divulge any secrets from the companies.

但自然，我算是个讲故事的人，性格偏内向。所以在这个播客里，我觉得自己有能力与你深入探讨任何话题，并补充背景信息——因为我认为若缺乏上下文，我那些犀利的观点可能会被断章取义。没有时间压力，不必考虑公关话术，这种感觉实在太自由了。真的很棒。

But, naturally, I'm kind of a storyteller. I'm kind of an introvert. So this podcast, I feel like I have the ability to go deeper with you on any topic and kind of add the context because I think the new without some of the context, some of my spicy takes or whatnot might be taken out of context. And just not having the time pressure, not feeling like there's some, you know, PR message I have to hit is just really freeing. So it feels awesome.

只要是听众可能感兴趣的任何想法，我都愿意畅所欲言，对此充满期待。

Really, anything that is on your mind that you would find interesting to your to your listeners, I'm here for it, and, yeah, excited.

有句话我常对嘉宾说（当然也不希望被曲解）：我把自己定义为逆向记者——我的目标是让嘉宾展现最佳状态。从不想突袭提问或诱导他们说违心的话。所以这是个安全空间。很好。

Something I always tell guests, and I don't want people to take this out of context also, but I always describe myself as a a reverse journalist where I want the guest to be the best version of themselves. I never wanna catch people off guard or just say something they never meant to say. So That's great. A safe space. Okay.

不过，是否有你一直想分享却苦于没有机会的事情？任何这类的想法都可以。

But still, is there anything that you want to share or that might be interesting to share that you've been wanting to share that you haven't been able to? Is there anything along those lines?

我经常被问到关于AGI（通用人工智能）的问题，比如它是否即将到来，是否...

I mean, I always get this question around sort of, you know, AGI, is it coming? Is it gonna is

会...

it gonna

解决所有问题？

solve everything?

你观察到什么迹象？

What have you seen?

这很有趣。我在OpenAI时正值人们对AI极度恐慌的阶段，担心它会取代人类或引发剧变。但就像所有新技术，人们需要适应期。AGI同样如此——它如此遥远，以至于大家都在猜测未来世界的样子。真相是我们都无从知晓。虽然有人认为AGI能解决一切问题，但我持保留态度。

I mean, it's so interesting because, you know, when I was at OpenAI, it was around the time that people were really scared of AI and, you know, oh, it's gonna, you know, get rid of humans or it's gonna just, you know, do all these things. But with every technology, I think everyone's been just kind of taking some time to acclimate to it. And I think with AGI, it's a similar thing, which is it's so far out that everyone's like, well, is it is it what what's our world gonna be like? And the real answer is, like, none of us really know. But in terms of solving problems, I think some people believe AGI is gonna solve everything, but I don't think so.

AGI只是必要条件而非充分条件。要真正利用这种新型能量源来解决人类问题，仍需大量建设者的不懈努力——这种拼搏精神不可或缺，正是这种实干才能让AGI发挥实际价值。

AGI is just necessary but not sufficient. A lot of the value is still gonna require a bunch of hustle from a lot of builders to really turn that new source of energy and channel it into something that we humans want to use that solves some of our problems. And that hustle is gonna be required. That elbow grease is gonna be required to really make AGI something useful.

你的观点是人们认为AGI一旦实现，突然间所有工作都会消失，AGI将接管一切。我觉得这是个乐观的信息——如果AGI（我好奇你是否对其有明确定义）即人工智能达到人类同等智能水平，事情会好起来的。

Your point is that people think AGI hits. All a sudden, all jobs are gone. AGI is doing everything. Like, because I think this is a optimistic message that things will be okay if AGI basically, AGI being and I'm curious if you have a clear definition, but AGI being AI being just basically as smart as humans.

听着，我完全不敢自称专家。但纵观每项新技术诞生，我们最终都能驾驭它——虽然需要付出巨大努力。我特意选用'驾驭'这个词。

Look. I'm I I won't Generally. Claim to be an expert on this at all. But I I just I think that with every technology that's come out, we've been able to harness it, and it takes a lot of harnessing. I think I'm gonna use that word very deliberately.

举个简单例子：如今看来理所当然的数据库技术，当年人们惊叹'天啊！能快速存储查询海量数据，想象这开启了多少可能性'。

Right? I'll I'll use something really basic. What seems obvious today is that, you know, there was a time when databases were all the rage. It's like, oh my goodness. You can store a bunch of data and you can query it really quickly and, like, imagine all the possibilities.

正是无数优秀创业者基于数据库打造了伟大产品。这甚至是当今所有技术的基石。现在觉得理所当然，但或许十年十五年后回看，我们会说'当然需要超级智能思考机器，但更需要产品建造者来引导这种能量，创造人类爱用想用的东西'。

And I think that a lot of amazing entrepreneurs and builders, you know, built some really great products on top of databases. Right? In fact, that's kind of the basis of all the stuff that we're seeing today. And it seems so obvious today, but I I don't know. Maybe in in, you know, ten years, fifteen years when we look back, it's like, of course, it made sense that we have this superintelligent, you know, thinking machine, but it requires product builders to be able to go in there and say, how do we channel this energy to make it something that we as humans love to use and want to use?

我欣赏这种乐观态度——仿佛计算机达到人类通用智能水平时，世界不会陷入混乱。

I love the optimism around this. It's just like things will not go crazy once computers are as generally intelligent as as humans.

这正是我想表达的。每种技术出现时人们都会恐惧。记得有部纪录片说自行车刚问世时，人们惊呼'这要终结一切'，现在听来很可笑。

I I I think that's that's exactly the the the what I'm trying to say, and I think that, again, every technology people have this fear. Right? And I remember reading or I started watching a documentary once, and they were talking about how when the bicycle came out, people were like, oh my goodness. This is gonna be the end of all things. And it again, it sounds silly today.

对吧？你会觉得'自行车？认真的吗？'但若置身当时语境——就像未来世代听这个播客时——我乐观认为我们会适应，事情总会好转。

Right? Because you're like, bicycles? Really? But then if you put yourself in the context and the mindset of a previous generation, which, you know, are the next generation will be looking back at this podcast in that previous generation, I think that, you know, again, I I think optimistically, things are gonna be okay. We're gonna adapt.

这其实是我在西南偏南音乐节与好友Josh Konstein讨论的观点：人类总会与技术协同进化。看看CHATGPT刚出现时的AI恐慌，但随着熟悉度增加，人们从恐惧到掌握——现在涌现的创业公司就是明证。

And this was actually one of the things that I talked about with my fresh friend Josh Konstein at South by Southwest is this idea that humans will always coevolve with technology. And I think that that coevolution is already happening. If you take a look at sort of there was a lot of a fear of AI just when CHUTCHYBT came out, but, you know, when you start to get familiar with it, things that kind of things change, and then you are able to to evolve from being, you know, fearful to familiar and to and to go all the way to having this this mastery of this thing of like, oh my goodness. Like, look at all the startups that are happening now, all the things that we can build. Right?

仅十八个月后回望，态度就已转变。我的乐观部分源于：既然过去十八个月如此，未来十八个月对我们现在追逐的事物是否也会同样？

And just over eighteen months, I would say we look back and there's been an attitude shift. Right? And so I guess part of my optimism comes from if you look back eighteen months and you look forward eighteen months, like, might it be the same thing for something that we're we're chasing now?

让我们再深入探讨下AI话题，之后再转向其他。感觉每次对话都绕不开AI，但还有其他重要事物。所以我想问你这个问题...

Let me follow this AI thread a little bit more, and then we can move on to other things. I feel like every con conversation, there's, like, a time to AI conversation, and it's like, okay. Look. There's other things that also matter. So let me ask you this, the question.

你认为AI会以何种人们尚未充分意识到的方式带来重大改变？

What's what's one specific thing you think will change in a big way with AI that people don't think enough about?

我认为教育领域将发生巨大变革。我经常思考这个问题，因为我在孩子学校参与很多工作——这是离开OpenAI后我做的事情。让我着迷的是，看着我儿子在OpenAI技术公开前就试用过很多功能（我觉得这么说应该没问题）。当时他九岁，玩着ChatGPT这类最新模型时，我就能观察到他的思维模式正在重构。

I think education is gonna change in a big way. And I think a lot about this because I'm involved in my kid's school quite a bit, and that's something I've done after I I left Open AI. And what's fascinating to me is that, you know, watching my son who got to, you know, dog food a bunch of the OpenAI stuff before it was public, I think that was I think I can safe safely say that. That seems okay. And when he was was playing with, like, know, ChatGPT and some of the the latest models, and he's he's he was nine at the time, I can already see his brain rewiring.

他开始提出各种问题，虽然从没听过'提示词'这个词，但人类大脑就是这么神奇。因为幼年接触这项技术，某些认知能力自然就被解锁了。这种思维差异有个具体例子——

Right? He was starting to ask questions, and he never heard the word prompt before, but his like, just this is how awesome the human mind is. Because he was exposed to this technology at an early age, some things just are unlocked. And I think that you're able to think differently. And I'll I'll give you a specific example of of what I mean here.

他参加Python编程课，但我认为他长大后根本不需要写代码，这问题届时早已解决。不过编程作为培养结构化、系统化思维的训练仍很有价值。有趣的是，他向ChaChaPeetie提出的疯狂提示词完全超出我的想象——

You know, he, you know, he goes to Python class, right, and he's he's coding. Now I don't actually think he's gonna have to code when he grows up. I think that's gonna be a solved problem. But it's a very valuable skill because I think learning to program is learning how to think structure in a structured way, right, in a semantic way, a systematic way. And, you know, he was he he was prompting ChaChaPeetie with some really crazy things that I never even thought of.

比如'ChaChaPeetie，能造个包含所有英文字母的句子吗？主题要关于海洋或太空'。这让我震惊是因为传统编程根本无法实现——Python里写不出这种函数。但他构建的定制GPT却能实现：输入任意主题，就能生成包含全部字母的句子，就像'the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog'那种。

And one of the things was, hey, ChaChaPeetie, can you give me a sentence that has every letter in the alphabet along the theme of oceans or along the theme of space? And the reason this kinda blew my mind is because in traditional programming, you couldn't write that program. You can't say to you know, in in Python, like, oh, write a function that goes and and formulate I mean, it's a really difficult function to write. But for, you know, him to be able to think of that prompt, which is really cool because he built a custom GPT that you can type in any topic, and it would give you a sentence that had every letter of the English alphabet, kinda like the the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. Right?

这不令人震撼吗？九岁的他就能这样思考，而我九岁时还在玩积木和QBasic。新一代人类大脑因AI工具产生的进化，将彻底改变教育形态。

Like, isn't that mind blowing? It's like that that that he can now at age nine, he could think about that. Whereas being at age nine, I was playing with LEGOs and, like, maybe QBasic. Right? And so this idea of how young humans' brains will evolve because of this new tool we have is gonna change the way I think we're gonna do education.

坦白说我不是教育专家，但深入思考后认为：未来关键在于培养提出正确问题的能力。人类天生好奇，但将好奇心转化为能有效提示AI的问题——这项人人可用的技术将成为工作能力的分水岭。

Right? And I'll be very honest. I'm not an expert in education, but I just thought a lot about it. And, you know, one one thing I'm gonna be I think it's gonna be really important in the future is being able to figure out how to ask the right questions. You know, we humans are inherently inquisitive, but, you know, being inquisitive and turning that into the right questions to, you know, prompt or ask AI, which is gonna be, again, something that everyone's gonna have access to, is gonna be a a differentiator for sort of what kind of work can be done.

就像计算器发明后，人们并非停止数学运算，而是转向更高阶的数学。这释放了大脑去进行更抽象的思考。

Right? And I I I I the the analogy I'll draw is when when the calculator was invented, you know, people didn't stop doing math. Right? They just did higher level math. And it frees the mind up to do other things and think more at a at a higher level of abstraction.

我们必须教会孩子如何进行抽象思考。类似变革早有先例——谷歌让记忆变得过时，而下一阶段将是代码的随需生成。那么人类将开发出哪些更高阶的能力？如何激发创造力与好奇心？这会非常有趣。

And I think we gotta prepare our kids on thinking about, well, how do you think at a higher level of abstraction? And this has happened before. Right? I think Google has made memory kind of obsolete. Like, you don't have to memorize facts anymore.

教育将发生剧变，就像过去进步教育从背诵乘法表转向更高阶思维训练那样。

You can just Google it. Right? And the next phase will be something around, well, code will just appear if you summon it. So what are the things that, you know, people will think about and the skills that develop that are at the next level of abstraction, right, that tap into our creativity, that tap into our curiosity, that's gonna be really interesting. So I think education is gonna change dramatically just like how progressive education in the past switched from memorization of, like, multiplication tables into something that's a little bit more, you know, kind of higher level, a higher level thinking.

我认为这将成为那些重要领域之一。

And I think that's gonna that's gonna be one of those big areas.

这让我想起刚听的一个NPR报道，讲教授们用ChatGPT设计课程。现在很多人讨论学生用ChatGPT作弊，比如让它代写论文，但教师们其实也在大规模使用ChatGPT。结果学生因为发现老师用AI设计课程而给差评，就像一场军备竞赛。

This makes me think about an NPR story I was just listening to where they were following professors using ChatGPT to create their curriculum. There's a lot of talk of students using ChatGPT, cheating, you know, having ChatGPT write their essays, but teachers are using ChatGPT in a big way. And and then students are rating professors badly because they noticed they're using ChatGPT for their curriculum. So it's kind of this, like, arms race.

不过更有趣的是，这种情况会进一步演化，就像你...

Well well but it's also interesting because then that's that goes further is so further that, like, you

是啊。

know Yeah.

整个体系必须改变。因为归根结底，我始终相信人类大脑天生具有求知欲，我们仍需要某种形式的成长，但具体会如何发展，我非常期待观察这个进程。

The whole system has to change. Right? Because, again, I still believe that human brains are inherently inquisitive and that we still need development in some way, but how that's gonna develop, I'm I'm fascinated to watch how that plays out.

先回到产品话题。不过首先，我知道你经常思考相关议题——和共事者交流时多次提到你特别强调语言的威力与重要性，注重书面和口头表达的精准度。能否谈谈作为领导者，你如何看待语言的力量？

Wanna get back to product. But first of all, I know something that you think a lot about along these lines. This came up in many conversations I had with folks that you worked with is your emphasis on the power and importance of language, being really good at thinking about the words you use both in writing and speaking. Just talk about how you think about that, just the importance and power of language as a leader.

我记得大学时有门课让我印象深刻，叫《语言与思维》，由Herbert Clark教授授课。他提出的论点令我震撼——语言实际会影响思维方式。当我从讲座和著作中接触到这个观点后，就再也无法停止思考，因为它如此真实。

I remember taking this class that really stuck with me in college. It was called language and thought, and it was taught by Herbert Clark. And he had this thesis that kinda blew my mind, which is that, you know, language actually affects the way you think. That's one of the parts of the thesis. And I once I heard that and read that in his book and listened to the lecture, I couldn't stop thinking about that because it just rang so true.

我从小讲中文，能明显感觉到汉语的某些特质让我形成特定思维模式，而学习英语后思维发生了变化。这方面也有相关研究——虽然记忆模糊需要查证——比如俄语中似乎有两种不同的'蓝色'...

Right? I grew up speaking Chinese, and I think that there's a lot of things of just the Chinese language that, you know, I feel like I noticed I thought differently when I learned English. Right? And there were some studies around this too. Think that there's a I think in in in I I'm not sure exactly, so this draft to go check up on this, but I think in Russian, there's there are two different words for, like, a blue.

像是偏绿的蓝和亮蓝

There's, like, a greenish blue and a bright blue

之类的俄语词汇？我六岁就移民美国，俄语不太好，你继续说的同时我也在努力回忆这个例子。

or something. Russian. And I my but it's like I was I I moved to The US when I was six, and so my Russian's not great. So I'm trying to think of this as you say it, but keep keep going.

嗯，我是说，这太棒了。所以我需要找到验证这一点的方法。但据我所知，因为俄语中有两个不同的词表示不同深浅的蓝色，后来学习英语的俄语母语者比从小只说英语的人能更快区分这两种蓝色。我读过一些相关研究。还有些语言根本没有表示蓝色的词，我认为这让他们长期难以辨别蓝色。

Well, I mean, I so so then this is great. So I I I need to get a way to to to validate this. But, you know, from what I remember, because there were these two different words for these different shades of blue, Russian speakers who then learned English had an easier time distinguishing between these two shades of blue than and a faster time doing so than people who had just grown up speaking English. So I read some studies on that. And then also there's some other languages that don't actually have a word for blue, I think, and then that's actually really hard for them to distinguish over time.

这让我印象深刻，我觉得很有道理。实践中，比如我做幻灯片时——几周前我刚给一个班级做演示，整套幻灯片总共可能只有20个词——我会花数小时反复推敲这些词，因为我想确保准确传达要表达的精髓。我认为在产品工作中这种雕琢非常重要，因为当你撰写愿景文档或产品需求文档时，如果不注意用词、不够谨慎，就会产生连锁反应，人们可能会误解内容。

So that really stuck with me, and and I think that it's kinda rings true. So when I you know, how I put it in practice is that when I make slide decks, I gave a presentation to a a class a couple weeks ago, and there were probably a total of 20 words on the entire slide deck. And I spent hours obsessing over them because I really wanted to make sure I captured the right essence of what I was trying to say. And I think that crafting is really important when you're working in product because if you're sitting down and you're writing a vision doc or you're writing a PRD and you if you don't pay attention to the words you use and you're not intentional about it, those have downstream effects. Like, people might misinterpret things.

真正的内涵可能无法传递。因此我对此非常谨慎，因为用错词会产生乘数效应和连锁反应。我深信语言影响思维的论点，这就是为什么我特别注重这一点。

The connotations may not actually come through. And so I I really am very careful about it because I think that the there's a multiplicative effect and a downstream effect for using the wrong word. And I I I really believe in that kind of language affecting thought thesis, which is why I've just really, really paid attention to that.

嗯。是的。我觉得AI也能帮你解决这个问题。我们有过一个...

Mhmm. Yeah. And I I feel like AI can help you with that too. Yes. We had an Well,

说到AI，这其实是个非常有趣的观点。我觉得人工智能的突破来自大语言模型这件事既有趣又富有诗意——每个词句都封装并塑造了大量知识。当ChatGPT做出有趣的事情时，我常告诉人们它其实只是在编写并解释Python代码，而Python又是一种语言。

actually, speaking of AI, actually, that's a really interesting point. I think it's really interesting and kinda poetic that and and fitting that the breakthrough in artificial intelligence came from large language models. Right? Like, that's it's interesting to me because, you know, there's with every word and every sentence, so much of the knowledge is encapsulated and shaped. And when ChatGPT does something really interesting, I I tell people it's oftentimes just writing Python code and interpreting it, and Python is a language yet again.

对吧？人类思想在语言中的凝练与当今LLM的发展之间存在某种深刻联系。

Right? So I think that there's something really interesting where, like, the condensation of human thought in language has is related to the LLMs and the the advancement scenario that we have today.

我记得Ilya在Dorkash的播客里说过：你可能觉得语言模型只是预测下一个词而已，有什么大不了？但要做到这点，它必须理解宇宙万物、历史上发生的一切事件和所有人类文字才能预测下一个词。

I think it was Ilya on a Dorkash's podcast where he was talking about how you may think LMs are just like, oh, just predicting the next word. What's the big deal? But in order to do that, it has to understand the universe and everything in the world that has ever happened and existed and everything anyone's ever written to predict the next word.

没错。说得太好了。

Yeah. Love it.

好的。让我稍微跳出来，把话题转到产品本身。你曾参与打造过一些划时代的产品——

Yeah. Okay. So let me let me zoom out a little bit and shift a little bit to just product in general. Sure. You've worked at and built some of those iconic products in history.

你在OpenAI、Facebook、Uber工作过，还参与过Instagram的产品。我想问：关于打造产品或领导团队，你学到的最反常识、违背普遍认知的经验是什么？

You worked at OpenAI, Facebook, Uber, had a product in Instagram. So let me just ask you this question and see where this goes. What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building products or leading teams that goes against common wisdom?

我认为在Uber学到的一个深刻教训是，有时候你的产品实际上并不重要。这里说的产品，指的是你呈现在屏幕上的像素点或手机应用里构建的功能。在Uber时我意识到这点，因为——虽然这么说让我难受——但Uber真正的产品其实是价格和预计到达时间。科技公司的人常把产品看作数字化的呈现，但从整体视角看，我们人类消费的是产品的全部体验。这是我领悟到的最具冲击力的教训之一。

I think one thing that it's a really hard lesson that I learned at Uber, which is sometimes your product actually doesn't matter. And by product, I mean, kind of the pixels you put on the screen or things that you build in your in your in your mobile app. And at Uber, I learned this because, you know, it it it pains me to say this, but, really, like, the price and the ETA at Uber was the product. And I think a lot of times, you know, people at tech companies think of the product as just this digital manifestation, but looking at it from a holistic perspective, you know, we humans consume the entirety of the product. And I think that's that was one of the things that I I learned, the lessons that I learned that was, like, really kinda hard hitting.

对吧？有时候那些像素点没你想象的那么重要。修复某个bug不是说没必要，但它的影响力远不如价格或到达时间这些对用户更重要的事情。

Right? That sometimes the pixels don't matter as much as you think. Right? And you fix a certain bug. It's not to say that you shouldn't fix the bug, but it doesn't have as much of an impact as something that is more important to people like a price or a TA.

这在B2B产品中很常见——终端用户喜爱固然好，但商业合理性才是关键。作为初入Uber时那个天真烂漫、以设计为导向的产品经理，这是我学到的艰难一课。最近我还想到：当今许多最具价值的科技公司最初并没有技术突破，它们依托现有技术构建，最终才发展出更多创新。比如Facebook，就是靠苦干起家的。

And this happens a lot in, you know, b to b products where it's not just about, you know, how it's great that your product is is well loved by its end users, but, you know, does it make good business sense is one of those those hard lessons I learned as a very bright eyed, bushy tailed sort of design based product manager going into Uber. I think the other insight that I had or rather other thought I had the other day was just the idea that, like, so many of the tech companies today this is kinda counterintuitive. So many of the tech companies that are most valuable today didn't really start with any technological breakthrough. They were built on some kind of technological breakthrough, and they ended up building a lot more technology. But, really, a lot of these companies, like Facebook, for example, just put in the hard work.

对吧？早期他们硬是把人际关系数据库打磨成有价值的产品，通过持续迭代推出News Feed和照片标记等功能。这些超级简单的创意并非来自实验室，而是源于对人性的洞察。Uber同样如此——他们没发明GPS，但抓住了人人兜里都有GPS设备这个契机。

Right? The elbow grease to especially in the early stages to take, you know, essentially a database of human connections and build something valuable on top of it and that keep on polishing and iterating that product and and coming up with new ones, like News Feed and photo tagging, were just, you know, kinda came out of just really paying attention to what people wanted. And some of the ideas are super simple, and it's not something that came out of the lab. Right? So Uber, for example, took the fact that everyone had these GPS devices in their pockets.

结合人们有车和出行需求的事实，他们串联起这些要素，最终构建了庞大的市场预测和定价技术。但本质上Uber是运营公司——我要特别致敬运营Uber Eats和出行业务的同事们，那是我见过最了不起的商业模式创新。硅谷常常迷失方向...

And they didn't invent the GPS device, but they were able to take that and the fact that people had cars and people wanted to kind of, you know, get around and there's a human need, and they just put the connected the dots and put everything together And, eventually, built a ton of tech to predict the right marketplace and pricing, etcetera. But largely, like, that's a very valuable tech company, but it's largely an operations company. And I I wanna give a huge shout out to my colleagues there who run, you know, kind of Uber Eats and and Uber Rides from a from a operations perspective because truly, like, that was one of the biggest kind of business model hacks that I've seen. Right? And so I I think that's you know, Silicon Valley gets lost a lot.

人们总说'这是家新科技公司'，但往往最有价值的企业只是在现有技术上搭建人们需要的东西。

It's like, oh, this is a new tech company. Oftentimes, some of most valuable ones are just the ones that are just building what people need on top of existing tech.

这里信息量太大了！我太赞同了——尤其这话出自曾领导Uber乘客端产品、任职Facebook并掌管Instagram产品的人。你的产品履历让这些见解格外有分量。

This is such there's so much to say here. I I I love it. And this is coming from someone that led the Uber rider product team, and worked at Facebook and head of the product Instagram. You know? It's like it means a lot coming from someone like you, not someone, you know, that's, like, not in product especially.

是啊，拿Instagram举例，它的核心理念极其简单：照片展示和视觉分享。但Mike和Kevin精益求精的工匠精神让它真正爆发——这是绝佳范例。

Yeah. I mean, I'm just to go further on the Instagram part, like, it's the the idea was super simple. It was it was showing photos and and visual sharing, but the craft that Mike and Kevin had in putting in the hard work to get the product just right, that's what made it really take off. Right? That's a great example.

我差点忘了Instagram——但怎么可能忘？任何公司都能做类似产品，但正是Kevin和Mike对'氛围感'的产品嗅觉和坚持，通过不断迭代造就了现在这个深入我们生活的视觉分享平台。

I I'd forgotten about Instagram, but how could I? But, you know, it wasn't anything that any other company couldn't have done, but it was that product taste that Kevin and Mike had and conviction that there's a certain sort of vibe, if you will, that people wanted and building that and iterating. I mean, and look at it now. It's it's a it's a core part of our lives. Visual sharing, they really solved it.

巧了，我最近刚采访Mike Krieger。这里存在双重张力：一方面很多成功企业的产品本身并不关键...

Yeah. I just had Mike Krieger on the podcast. So it's interesting. There's two tensions here. One is just, like, the product doesn't matter in a lot of really successful companies.

它次于汽车、司机、GPS和手机。另一方面，技术领域并不需要技术突破就能建立庞大的业务。这几乎就像，如果没有技术突破，那么产品本身才至关重要。以Facebook为例，本质上它就是一个连接数据库，但让它和Instagram实现突破的正是这一点。

It's secondary to the cars, the drivers, the the GPS, and the phone. And then on the other hand, techno there doesn't need to be a technological breakthrough for to build a huge business. Is there it's almost like if the, if there's no technological breakthrough, then the product matters. Like, Facebook is an example. Basically, it's like a database of connections, but what allowed the and Instagram, what allowed them to be breakthrough.

而且你知道，当时的经典竞争对手是体验感明显更优的产品。反过来说，如果体验无关紧要，那么运营等方面的突破才是关键——这个观点有共鸣吗？你是在表达这个意思吗？

And there's, you know, classically competitors at the time was the experience was a lot better. And then maybe on the flip side, if the if the experience doesn't matter, then it's the breakthroughs on the operations and other does that resonate? Is that kinda what you're saying?

确实有共鸣。我认为两者必须同时成立。但我也要说，即便你创立了一家拥有重大技术突破的公司，很快产品体验就会开始变得重要。因为技术优势能持续多久呢？人类很快会意识到'这不是我想用的产品'。

It does resonate. I think I think both have to be true. But also, I would say that, like, even if you did found a company that has a huge technological breakthrough, very shortly, I think that, you know, kind of the the the product experience will start mattering. Right? Because, you know, how long does that technological advantage last, right, before humans wise enough to be like, well, this is not the product I wanna use.

他们希望以不同方式使用，需要更符合人体工学的设计等等。所以你说的总结非常精辟。我还认为公司所处的历史阶段也会决定哪方面更重要。

I wanna use it a little bit differently, and this is more ergonomic for me, etcetera. So I think I think that that's what you said is is is a beautiful summary. I I also think that a point in time in a company's history will also determine what is gonna be more important.

这对基于LLM和AI基础设施的公司尤其有趣——你本质上是在说，如果能创造真正独特的使用体验来释放超级智能的潜力，就不需要技术突破也能打造有价值的产品。

This this is all especially interesting for companies building on top of LLMs and AI infrastructure where you're essentially saying you don't need to have some kind of technological breakthrough to build something valuable if you can create a really special unique experience that unlocks the potential of this superintelligence.

我认为没错。关于那些基于LLM的公司，我还有些想法——这其实是略有不同的话题。对他们而言，拥有正确的数据和数据飞轮机制至关重要。

I think that's right. And and I have some more thoughts on just sort of the companies that are building on top of LLMs that are just that's a slightly different thing, I would say. I think that for them, having the right data and the right data flywheels is so important.

比如专有数据？

Like proprietary data,

正是。飞轮机制的核心在于：你可以从专有数据起步，但关键在于如何持续维护和生成这些数据。第二点依然是工作流程——产品如何无缝融入人们生活的工学设计，这将越来越重要。

Exactly. And the flywheel part is just you can start with proprietary data, the but flywheel is really just sort of how do you continue to maintain that and generate that. And the second thing is, again, it's it's the workflow. So it's the it's the ergonomics of how does it actually integrate into people's lives, and that is gonna be more and more important.

我们多探讨这点吧，因为很多人正在思考这个问题。现在似乎每个人都在尝试用AI创业，所以大家都好奇该专注哪些领域。你提到的两点很有启发性：要建立抵御基础模型侵蚀的护城河，首先考虑获取能形成数据飞轮的专有数据；其次是深度理解垂直领域，完美契合现有工作流程。是这样吗？

Let's actually spend more time there because a lot of people are thinking about this. Feels like feels like everybody's trying to start a company these days with, you know, AI enabling so much more. And so I think a lot of people are just curious where should they spend time. And so I think this is actually really interesting. So what I'm hearing here is two things to think about to create any kind of moat defensibility against, say, foundational models coming to your lunch or another companies.

（注：此处原文为重复确认句，中文采用简洁表述）

What sort of data can you acquire that is proprietary and create a flywheel to generate more of that data? And then the other piece is how do you fit into a very specific like, basically vertical that you understand really well that fits into their existing workflow. Is that probably right?

这个问题确实值得我们深入探讨很久。要知道，任何你想打造的产品都会面临已有竞争者占据渠道优势的局面。但我坚信有些产品能够突破这些公司的渠道壁垒——前提是你的产品必须足够出色，要跨越相当高的门槛。

Well, it's again, this is this is something we can unpack for a long time. Right? Because, you know, with any product that you wanna build, there's gonna be incumbents that have distribution advantages. But I do have this thesis that there are certain products that will be able to break through those advantages of the distribution of the other companies. But you have to kind of overcome a pretty high bar of your product has to be so much better.

必须足够优秀。我认为这是关键点。数据飞轮的概念很有意思——模型会根据你提供的数据变得擅长相应领域。人们总把AI当作魔法棒，其实不然。只有当它接受过正确数据训练时，才能发挥相应作用。

Better. Right? That's I think that's that's one thing. But, yeah, I think the data flywheel thing is really interesting because what you know, the the the models will get really good at whatever data you show it. And that's that's one of the things that people just think that AI is such a magic wand, but, no, it's like if it's been trained on the right data, it's gonna do the thing that it's been trained on.

这极具价值。因此要审慎选择启动飞轮的初始数据，并持续推动飞轮运转——这对当今创业者而言至关重要。

It's very valuable. So being very mindful of the data that you have access to to start your flywheel going and what you can do to keep on going with that flywheel is gonna be a a critical thing for for anyone who's starting a company today.

让我们具体化这个观点。CEO Windsurf在播客中详细讲述过，他们拥有独特的代码片段采纳/拒绝数据，并基于此推出了模型。这是否算典型案例？还有其他例子能说明这点吗？

So let's make that even more specific. When you talk about this, I think about this the CEO Windsurf was on the podcast, and he talked a lot about how they've always really unique data about which recommendations of code snippets people accept and reject. And they actually launched their model, I think, based on that. Is that is that an example any other examples to make this

这是个完美范例。我投资的几家未公开公司也有类似创新——通过产品内用户行为数据持续优化核心功能。这正是数据飞轮与工作流程相辅相成的例证。当你真正为企业或用户创造价值时，大量使用数据就会成为你的竞争优势。

That's a perfect example. There's some companies I've invested in that aren't public yet that have their own sort of take on that, which is really interesting to be able to to take sort of whatever activity is in their product to get smarter at the thing that they are doing. Again, which is why I think the data flywheel and the the the workflow goes so hand in hand together. Right? Because if you are solving something actually valuable for businesses, for people, and there's a lot of that attention that's being paid to it, a lot of work is being done through it, you're gonna have that edge.

我看到某些初创公司深刻理解这一点——他们不追求零样本解决方案，而是扎实构建真正实用的产品，使其随时间推移越来越有价值。作为用户，我们都将从中受益。

And, you know, this is where I see, again, startups in very different markets who have this insight, who understand this very deeply, and are not just trying to zero shot everything and be like, no. No. No. Like, this is how we're gonna build it to make the product genuinely useful so that it can get genuinely more useful over time. And that is gonna be amazing because, you know, as a consumer of any of these products, we're gonna benefit.

我理解的是：即便没有专有数据，也能通过使用场景积累数据构建飞轮。比如Windsurf最初基于Clawd 3.5，如今已拥有独特数据体系。

What I'm hearing here is also if you don't have proprietary data or unique data, you can still have a chance by building this flywheel where you collect that data through your usage. For example, Windsurf, they all built on Clawd 3.5, and then now they have all this unique data. And now they're, like, normal models.

完全正确。这回归到我曾简要提过的观点——创业需要坚韧不拔的毅力。必须保持清晰愿景并全力追逐目标。

Yep. That's exactly right. And this goes back to sort of something I might have mentioned briefly, but you gotta have grit when you're building anything. Right? You gotta be able to, like, have that vision, have that clear direction, and be able to really go chase that.

我认为这非常关键。

I think that's really important.

关于突破渠道优势的案例，让我想起微软CPO（原来他们有这么多首席产品官）——当我询问Copilot为何...

The and to make your example of distribution being overcomeable, a great example I think a lot about when we had the c p o a c p o. Turns out there's many CPOs at Microsoft. I didn't realize how many CPOs they had. Yeah. And she she I asked her about, like, why didn't Copilot?

比如世界上增长最快的公司，Cursor、Windsurf、Lovable Bolt这些。Copilot原本遥遥领先于它们，而这些公司却能突围而出，尽管微软拥有分销渠道、顶尖人才、基础设施等所有资源，还有先发优势。正如你所说，他们只是打造了更出色的产品。Cursor、Windsurf这些，都很讨喜。

What like, the fastest growing companies in the world, Cursor, Windsurf, Lovable Bolt, all these guys. Like, Copilot was so ahead of these these companies, and and these companies broke through while Microsoft has distribution, amazing talent, infrastructure, all the things, early first mover advantage. And it's to your point, they were just building products that were much better. Cursor, Windsurf, all these, like, lovable.

我确实相信，当产品工艺达到某种水准时，人们就会觉得值得尝试或转换。目前市面上有几款产品让我有这种感觉，比如granola。Google Meet（抱歉，是Microsoft Teams）拥有谷歌和Facebook的诸多分销优势。

I I do believe there is a a level of product craft that will make it so that it's just worth it to switch or try something else. And there are a few products out there that I see with that with this. I think granola is one of them. There's so many distribution advantages that Google Meet has that Google Facebook sorry. Microsoft Teams has.

Zoom也有。但正是那些精妙的产品工艺细节让我由衷欣赏——他们做到了。他们把那些细微之处打磨得恰到好处，真正创造出令人愉悦的体验，让我愿意安装这个软件。百分之百愿意。

Zoom has. But they're just these tiny little product craft delightful things that I really appreciate myself of like, yeah, they got it. They have these little edges sanded down just right, and they've really figured out a way to really make it so delightful that it's like, yeah, I will I will install this piece of software. Yes. A 100%.

我会向朋友推荐这种改变生活的产品。现在我们开始看到这种趋势。十八个月前大家还在问'谁拥有最好的模型'，而现在真正的问题是'谁拥有最佳工作流和产品'。

I will talk to my friends about this because it is so life changing. Right? And that we're starting to see that now. Again, before, I would say eighteen months ago, it's like, oh, well, who has the best model? But then coming forward, it's like, really, who has the best workflow and who has the best product?

我们人类就是很挑剔，我们想要最好的。所以当有人推出精心打造的产品时，人们一定会关注。

And we humans are just demanding. We want the best. And so when that when someone is gonna come out and produce something that's so well crafted, I think people are gonna pay attention.

这里有几个要点：如果你想创立AI初创公司，需要考虑这些来提高成功几率——如何建立获取专有独特数据的飞轮？如何打造让人惊艳、口口相传的产品？Granolah就是典范，Cursor、Lovable Bolt都做到了。此外还需要深入理解垂直领域工作流，用独特方式解决用户痛点。

So a couple takeaways here is if you're trying to build an AI startup, a few things you should be thinking about that gives you a better chance of breaking through and winning is what are your data flywheels where you collect proprietary unique data? How do you build something that's in the craft is comes through, and people are, like, wowed and want to tell their friends about it. Granolah is a great example. Clearly, Cursor, Lovable Bolt, all these guys did that. And then it feels like there's just like a understand a vertical workflow really well, and then someone's problem and solve that in a really unique way.

没错，你说得太到位了。

Yep. You couldn't have put it better myself.

太棒了。我想请教这个问题，因为之前与Anthropic的Mike讨论时也提到过——Anthropic的产品团队在做什么？他们在构建这个超级智能的'巨型大脑'，未来可能自主创造体验，而产品团队则在其之上构建交互层。

Awesome. Let me ask you this because this came up in my chat with Mike at Anthropic, and it's along these lines. So I I was thinking about just what is what is product doing at Anthropic? So they're building this basically a gigabrain superintelligence thing that's gonna know everything and maybe build its own experience in the future. And then there's this, like, product team building this layer on top to interact with this superintelligence gigabrain.

这个层的价值是什么？你刚才提到体验和原生感很重要，但我想直接问：在Anthropic、OpenAI这类研发超级智能的公司里，产品层的定位究竟是什么？

What is the point? What is the value of that layer? You spoke to it a bit here of just, like, there is value in the experience and feeling native. But I guess let me just ask you that. Just where do you think product goes at a company like Anthropic OpenAI where there's just the super intelligence that the team is working on, and there's this, like, UX on top?

这些公司优势巨大，因为产品人员能与研究员同处一栋楼。后训练阶段与产品之间存在共生关系——未来越来越不取决于原始智能，而在于模型微调如何契合用户需求，以及产品发展轨迹。这种趋势会越来越明显。

I think those companies have just such an advantage because you get to work in the same building as the researchers. And I think, you know, there there's that really kind of symbiotic relation, close partnership between post training and and and product where, you know, again, more and more, it's gonna be less about the raw intelligence. It's gonna be about the fine tuning of of what the model can do that that really resonates with people and what people want and also what the product trajectory is is gonna be. Right? So I think that's gonna you're gonna see that more and more.

我是说，我认为这更多是关于OpenAI而非Anthropic。我觉得OpenAI走了一步好棋。我是Fiji的超级粉丝。消息一泄露她要加入，我就发短信给她说这太棒了。

I mean, I think I think, you know, this is less about Anthropic, but more about OpenAI. I think OpenAI made a great move. I am a huge Fiji fan. As soon as that news leaked that she was gonna join, I texted her. Was like, this is great.

太棒了，恭喜！我为她、为公司、为所有仍在OpenAI的朋友感到兴奋，因为即将迎来这样一位杰出的领导者。作为用户我也很激动，因为会有很棒的产品问世。我认为这些大型模型公司中，训练后阶段与产品间紧密协作的关系将催生真正惊人的成果。

Amazing. Congratulations. I'm thrilled for her, for the company, for all of my friends still at OpenAI because it's just gonna be this amazing leader coming in. I'm also thrilled as a consumer because some great products are gonna come out. And I think that really that close tight knit relationship between at any of these large model companies between post training and and product is gonna produce some really incredible stuff.

首先，Mike实际上说过非常类似的话，越是...

First of all, Mike actually said very similar things that the more

我发誓，我绝对没看那个播客。

I did not I promise you. I did not watch that podcast.

还没发布。好吧，那就相信你。他们有个有趣的发现：他把产品人员安排在前端用户体验岗位，而让产品经理加入研究团队改进模型，协助研究人员开发。

Out yet. So Okay. Well, then Believe you. Yeah. They they he had this interesting finding where he he put product people on, like, UX product experience because front facing product, and then he put PMs on the research teams and building models, helping models get better, helping researchers build things.

他发现所有关键突破都来自产品经理与研究人员的合作，远胜于用户体验方面。所以他不断往研究团队增派产品经理。

And he found that all all the leverage and wins came from the PMs working with the researchers, much less so on the product experience. And so he puts more and more PMs with that with the with that team.

听到这个我特别兴奋，因为这某种程度上验证了我们的做法——OpenAI也是让团队与训练后部门紧密协作。正是这种深度合作让ChatGPT能在多方面持续进步。能独立得出相同结论真是太棒了。

I I'm so thrilled to hear that because that's a little bit of it's very validating because that's what we did at OpenAI too. We were very closely tied to the post trading team, and so it was because of that tight collaboration that you see some of the advances of ChatuchuBT getting better at so many things. Right? So it's great. It's it's awesome that we independently came to the same conclusion.

没错，这是个好迹象。现在我们聊聊初创公司，我想顺着这个话题深入些。

Yes. It's a good sign. Okay. So we're talking about start ups building new companies. I wanna follow this thread a little bit.

当然。感觉你从零到一打造并规模化产品的经验可能比大多数人都丰富。我快速列举些你的成就：你主导创建了Facebook动态消息当前版本，开发了新群组体验、聊天和消息功能，

Sure. I feel like you've built more products that from zero to one to scale than may maybe most anyone else across all the companies that you've worked at. I'm gonna do a quick rundown of some of the things you've done, and, I'm I'm gonna miss a bunch, but let's see. You built and led the Facebook News Feed, the current version of it. You built the new groups experience, chat, and messages.

将Messenger独立成应用，领导Uber拼车服务，推出ChatGPT企业版，发布语音视觉功能和记忆定制GPT，全面改版ChatGPT设计等等——肯定还有很多遗漏。

You shipped the Messenger app as its own app. That was that was one of your projects. You, led Uber Pool, low cost rides. You launched ChatGPT Enterprise. You shipped voice and vision memory custom GPTs, just refreshing the whole design of ChatGPT, many more things.

显然，在Airtable和Oculus都有大量工作，这些只是部分例子。在开场部分，我会尝试梳理所有这些内容。总而言之，我觉得你已经见识了很多从零到一再到规模化过程中哪些方法有效、哪些无效。所以让我直接问你这个问题。

A lot of work at Airtable, obviously, also Oculus. These are just some examples. In the intro, I'm gonna try to go through all these things. So all that to say, I feel like you've seen a lot of what works and doesn't work, building from idea from zero essentially to one to scale. So let me just ask you this question.

关于将一个想法从萌芽发展到十亿规模的成功要素，你学到的重要一课是什么？

What's, what's an important lesson you've learned about what it takes to succeed building something from idea to one to billions?

是的，谢谢。当你提到这些时，也让我好好回忆了一番。我认为首先要说的是，从零到一和从一到百是不同的阶段。而在我花费大量时间的一到百阶段——比如我们曾在两年内让Instagram使用量翻了两番。

Yeah. Thank you. And that was a good trip down memory lane too, when when you read that off. So I think the first thing I would say and and, you know, going from zero to one is different going from one to 100. And when you are in the one to 100 phase, which is a lot of the time that I spent, you know, is is in the one to 100 phase, We, you know, we're able to we quadrupled Instagram usage in two years.

那段经历非常有趣，其他公司也有许多类似案例。但当你进入一到百阶段时，关键是要提前规划好战略部署，必须三思而后行，建立能让你持续加速的系统。因为零到一阶段是寻找产品市场匹配，而一到百阶段则是确保能实现超高速增长。

That was very much a fun ride, and there's a bunch of other examples at other at other companies. But when you go to one to 100, I think one of the things that you really gotta take into account is that you have to plan your chess moves out in advance. You have to really think before you act and build systems that are gonna let you go sustainably faster. Because the zero to one is you're trying to find that product market fit. And then when you get to one to 100, you're trying to make sure you can get to hyperscale and and as fast as you can.

对吧？我很幸运能参与多个产品这种超高速增长的过程。我常喜欢用这个比喻：当经历这种增长时，你能感受到重力加速度。有些人会说'哦，没错'。

Right? And I've been very fortunate to be along the ride of of many of these products as they were going through that hyperscale. And the analogy I always like to use is that when you do that, you feel the g forces. Right? And, you know, some people are like, oh, yeah.

我是一名飞行员。我能在三万五千英尺的高空飞行，但你知道，感受火箭起飞时的重力加速度是完全不同的体验，对吧？通过几次这样的经历，我学到的是必须建立能让你持续加速的系统。明白吗？

I'm a pilot. I can fly at, you know, 35,000 feet, but, like, the the you know, feeling the g forces of takeoff of a rocket is very different. Right? And one thing that I've learned there doing that a few times is you gotta build the systems that help you move sustainably faster. Right?

有时候你需要慢下来才能更快前进。举个例子，我们在构建现在的新闻推送功能时，从最初版本到现在其实没怎么改动过——我都记不清了，大概十二年前吧。

And sometimes you have to go slow to go fast. And here's an example. So in building the newsfeed, the current version that we have today, it it really hasn't changed much from the time that we built it. I don't even know. Was, like, twelve years ago or something.

虽然不清楚它为何变化不大，但我更愿意认为这是因为我们投入了大量时间精心设计整个分享闭环：思考哪些是核心要素、架构如何搭建、信息架构是什么样子、整个流程从页面顶端的发布到新闻推送展示，再到用户点赞触发红色通知提醒，如何避免重复循环。我相信当前版本的新闻推送能经得起时间考验，正是因为我们深入考虑了用户的交互方式、信息消费习惯以及整个闭环设计。当这些要素都考虑周全时，产品自然就能历久弥新。

I don't know the reason why it hasn't changed much, but I like to think that it's because we put a lot of time and craft into thinking about the whole sharing loop, and what are what is the what is the what are the key pieces of it, and how is it architected? What's the information architecture, and what does that whole flow look like? How does it go from posting something at the top of the page to showing up in the newsfeed to someone clicking like and then that notifications thing lighting up red and then not repeating over and over again? And I like to think that newsfeed has stood the test of time, the current version of it, because we thought very carefully about how people wanted to interact and how people wanted to consume information and also that whole loop. And so when when that happens, then I think things are built to last.

对吧？很多公司都有类似情况。我在优步时就遇到过乘客端代码像意大利面一样混乱的局面。但通过退后一步重新架构，思考核心组件是什么、如何让产品选择器实现全球扩展——这里有个冷知识：

Right? And I think the the this I think this is the case at a lot of different companies. So when I was at Uber, we we had a bit of a spaghetti string code situation on the Ryder app. But, you know, taking a step back and rearchitecting things of, like, what are the core components and how do you actually make it so that the product selector can scale around the world. And here's a little known fact.

说到坚韧和苦干，优步不只是简单叫车服务。如果你去过印度这类国家就会知道，有时连路标都没有，乘客得在便利店之类的地方上下车。所以我们有专门团队负责上下车点的解决方案。

Like, you know, talk about grit and elbow grease. Like, Uber is not just as simple as, like, finding a ride. If you've ever been to another country, like in India, sometimes there are no street signs. You So have to, like, pick up in front of this, you know, mini mart or whatever it might be. So there's a whole team that worked on pickup and drop offs.

这是一项庞大的工程，听起来很枯燥，但对优步实现规模化至关重要。因为接送团队思考过如何为特定场所设计解决方案，找到正确的抽象概念意味着你能以可扩展的方式处理机场接送，并配置不同场所。这些系统在1到100阶段投入时间构建后，能极大加速发展。这就是如何在两年内实现用户量四倍增长。在Messenger上，我们也深入设计了推送通知等基础设施。

This is a large effort, and it sounds so boring, but it was so critical to Uber being able to scale because pickup and drop offs team thought about, well, how do you do it for venues? And that venues and finding that right abstraction means that you can have a scalable way to to do pickups at airports and, you know, configure different venues. And those systems, when you take the time to build them in the one to 100 phase, help you speed up massively. And that's how you get four x, you know, users in two years. Or on Messenger, we put a lot of thought into the infrastructure around push notifications, etcetera.

我们用大约两年半时间将这个产品从零发展到每日发送47亿条消息。我认为这确实需要在构建正确系统时具备前瞻性思维。

We grew that product from zero to 4,700,000,000 messages sent per day in about two and a half years. And I think it really is requires that that forethought in in building the right systems.

请允许我快速跟进这个话题，这非常有趣。本质上你是说，一旦进入产品市场匹配阶段——其实我想先问你：在开始规划前，当你准备从1扩展到100时，你的建议基本是不要‘快速行动、打破常规’，不要急于推出最小可行产品。这个阶段需要像下棋那样深思熟虑，考虑如何支撑十亿级用户规模。

Let me follow that thread real quickly because that's really interesting. So, essentially, what you're saying is once there's, like, a phase of once you find product market fit, and I'm I wanna actually ask you this. Before you start planning, when you're starting to scale going from one to a 100, your advice here is basically don't move fast and break things. Don't ship MVPs. This is the time to really think many chess moves ahead about what you're gonna need to get this to, say, a billion users.

没错。关键在于构建系统，这种系统思维能带你走得很远。至少这是我的经验，希望对你同样适用。不过效果可能因人而异。

Yeah. Yeah. It's building the systems, and then that that systems thinking will will will carry you really far. At least that's been my experience, and hopefully hopefully, you can find the same way. But, you know, your mileage may vary.

对，正是如此。

But, yeah, that's exactly right.

你对此有什么时机建议？因为你知道，开发出某个产品后，它开始运转了，但接下来就会面临‘是继续推进，尽可能扩展’的抉择。根据你的经验，什么时候该停下来长远规划？

What's your guidance on just, like, when to do that? Because, you know, you can't you know, you build something. Okay. Well, it's working. There's also this just like, okay.

在你看来，关于何时真正退后一步进行多年规划，有什么指导原则？

Let's just keep it going. Let's scale it as far as we can. There in your experience, is it just like what's the guidance on when to really step back and really think years and years ahead?

好问题。首先这不是非此即彼的开关，而是渐进过程。我带领团队时始终坚信组合策略——比如谷歌著名的70/30资源分配法可能适合成熟公司，初创企业或许是50/50。必须用非二元思维看待这个问题，考虑何时需要加大资源投入。每家初创公司情况都不同。

Great question. I'll say the first thing I'll say is that it's not a binary switch. It's actually a ramp rate. And so when I've led teams, I've always believed strongly in this portfolio approach. Right?

对吧？每个推出的产品都不同。思考你的组合策略和时间分配就是我的建议。这确实取决于所处阶段——这正好引出我的第二点，如果可以的话。

And so, you know, famously, Google had the 7030 portfolio approach that may be the right thing for a more mature company. Maybe it's fifty fifty if you're a startup. Right? But you have to think about this a non binary way in in in a way that's about scaling up and when do you need to put more resources behind behind that. So every startup is gonna be different.

是的。

Right? Every product that you're launching is gonna be different. And then thinking about your portfolio approach and how much you allocate your time, that would be my my advice. And it's your you know, it's it is really dependent on the stage that you're in. I think that actually is a nice dovetail to my second thing, if I if I may Yeah.

也就是说，当你从1到5或1到10的阶段过渡时——并非直接跃升至1到100——我发现衡量一切指标非常有用。这听起来很简单，但就像你不会在没有仪表的情况下驾驶飞机一样，为何要在不了解产品数据监测和表现的情况下运营产品呢？因此，在我领导的几乎所有团队中，无论是Instagram、Uber、Airtable还是ChatGPT，我首先做的事情之一就是组建增长团队。

Which is, you know, when you're going from that stage of of maybe, you know, one to five or one to 10, so not just fully one to 100, one thing I found to be very helpful is to measure everything. And this sounds, again, very simple, but, you know, just like how you wouldn't fly a plane without instruments, like, why would you run your product without understanding the instrumentation and how it's doing? Right? And so one of the things I did in pretty much all the teams that I led, whether it was Instagram, Uber, Airtable, was all about and ChatGPT too. The one of the first things I did was always to build a growth team.

组建增长团队非常有趣，因为它本质上是个简单的剃刀原则。表面看只是'我要建个增长团队'，但随后你会发现大量问题：比如有多少数据尚未记录，以及过去对产品的观察有多么不严谨。

And building a growth team is really interesting because it actually is a simple razor. It's a simple thing to think about. It's like, I'm gonna build a growth team, but then you're gonna uncover a lot of things. Right? You're gonna uncover how much stuff you have not yet logged and how nonrigorous you've been looking at your entire product.

这现象简直令人啼笑皆非——我在每家公司都反复看到同样的剧情。记得刚去Instagram时问Kelly Max：'我们有多少用户？'得到的回答是'不太清楚，反正很多'。当你组建增长团队并找到合适的增长负责人后——比如我有幸与Instagram的George Lee、Facebook早期增长成员、Uber和Airtable的Andrew Chan，以及现在Notion的增长负责人Lauren共事——他们就会开始提出关键问题。

And it's it's so funny because I've seen this movie so many times, the same movie so many times at every one of these companies where I remember walking to Instagram and I think asking Kelly Max, like, so how many users do we have? It's like, well, we don't really know. And and so it's like, well, there are a lot, and we don't really know. And so when you build a growth team and you hire the right growth leader, I've had the pleasure the the pleasure of working with George Lee at Instagram, you know, some early growth folks at at Facebook, Andrew Chan at at at Uber, Airtable. I had the privilege of working with Lauren who is currently now leading growth at at Notion.

我非常幸运能与这些优秀人才合作。合适的增长产品经理会不断追问：'为什么会出现这种情况？我们需要获取XYZ方面的数据'。

So I've I've been very fortunate to work with some really amazing people on my team. And when you hire the right person, they start asking all the right questions. Because when you know, the the archetype of person who is a a growth PM will be like, well, wait. Why is this happening? And let's get the data on x, y, and z thing.

这时你才意识到XYZ数据根本没有记录。等获取这些数据后，又会发现新问题：'这又是为什么？'从而迫使你进行更深入的相关性分析和假设验证。

And that's when you realize you don't have x, y, and z thing logged. And after you have x, y, and z thing logged, you look at the data, you're like, wait. Well, why is that happening? And then you're you're forcing yourself to go deeper into the analysis of doing some analysis of like, well, you know, what's correlated with what? And what are some hypotheses?

由于增长产品负责人痴迷实验，组建增长团队就像按下开关——它自然引发正确的问题，进而推动将看似有效的工作转化为更严谨的体系。这就是1到10阶段的核心，为后续10到100阶段奠定基础。

And because growth leaders, growth product leaders are so into this experimentation side, it actually is this really easy thing to do is when you start building a growth team, it just begets all of the right questions being asked, and then it starts, you know, kind of turning into all the right behaviors of of of taking something you've been building, which is seems like it's working into a more rigorous system. So that's like the zero sorry, the the one to 10 phase, I would say, that really sets you up for the 10 to one

你关于增长团队的建议最打动我的是：多数人认为组建增长团队只是为了驱动增长，而你指出其二级效益——他们能帮你理清现状，为其他决策提供依据，让团队真正理解业务运行状况。

What what I like about this growth team advice is that a lot of people think of a time to hire a growth team to we need to drive growth. What you're saying is there's a lot of second order benefits, which is they help you figure out what the hell is going on and inform a lot of of other things that are happening. People just actually understanding how things are going in.

完全正确。我建议优先组建增长团队而非数据分析团队，因为后者可能无人理会——'我们有些洞察''哦，没人在乎'。但增长负责人直接对增长结果负责，他们会主动追问数据团队，推动整个产品和业务走向严谨，这能改变团队基因。

Totally. And I think that the reason why growth team is is is the advice I would go with rather than to build an analytics team is because if you build an analytics team or a data science team, it's possible that no one's gonna listen to them. Right? It's like, oh, I have these insights. It's like, well, no one really cares.

如果聘请增长负责人，他们与增长业绩直接挂钩，因此会持续提出问题，与数据团队深度合作，从而提升整个产品和业务的严谨性。这种改变会重塑团队的DNA。

But if you have a if you hire a growth leader, they are now tied to outcomes of driving growth, So they're gonna be the ones who are listening and asking, you know, more questions and really partnering with that data science team to make your entire product and business more rigorous. And that just changes the DNA of of your entire team.

我想聊聊招聘，不过在构建新产品和规模化方面，你还有其他想分享的经验吗？

I wanna talk about hiring, but is there anything else along these lines that you wanna share of building new product, scaling products?

我想最后要补充的是，在追逐数据的过程中，产品人有时会忽视品味与工艺的重要性。这或许正与团队建设相呼应——你需要制衡的力量。比如让团队成员各司其职：一人负责产品增长，另一人则专注于...

I guess the the last thing I would say is, like, I I I wanna make sure that, you know, sometimes in the in the pursuit of numbers, product folks lose sight of the importance of taste and craft. So maybe this is actually the dovetail into kind of building teams, but, like, you gotta have the counterbalances. Right? And it's really important to give two people on your team different charges. One is, like, go grow the product, and the other one is, wait.

守护设计美学，保持产品赖以成名的手艺水准。这种张力极其有益。我在Facebook和Instagram都见证过这种模式。

Maintain that design, that beautiful aesthetic, that that the the the craft that your that your product is known for. And that tension is extremely healthy. Right? And so I I've saw I've seen this at at at at Facebook. I've seen this at Instagram.

我曾在Instagram协助建立这种良性张力，Airtable也是如此，Chatuchi Boutique同样遵循这个原则。必须让两种力量相互制衡，才能全面拓展可能性边界。

I I helped create this at Instagram, this kind of healthy tension. Airtable, same thing, but just having Chatuchi Boutique, same exact thing. You have to have that push and pull on both sides to really stretch the gamut.

这引出一个问题：具体如何操作？理论上可以高谈阔论，比如'要确保体验卓越，同时提升某个指标'，但...

That begs the question, how do you actually do that? You know, a lot you could talk about it. You could be like, okay. We need to make sure the experience is awesome, but also grow this number. Here's your goal.

如何落地执行？是通过绩效考核指标？企业文化？还是其他机制？

How do you operationalize that? Is it like a performance review attribute thing? Is it culture or something else?

作为领导者，必须合理搭建团队架构。要把团队视为产品，思考需要哪些组件来实现战略目标。我参与打造的最成功团队都像复仇者联盟——成员各怀绝技，而领导者就像调解分歧的裁判。当每个人都专注不同领域时，才能产出最佳成果。

As a leader, you have to set up your team the right way. You have to really think about your team as a product, and what are the various pieces you need to really stretch the gamut of what you're what you're thinking about. And the teams that I've helped build are the most successful ones are a team of avengers that are just, like, very different have very different superpowers, but together, you as the leader are the one who's helping adjudicate any differences or any any disagreements. But you're you know you're getting the best outcome when everyone's pulling and obsessing over a different thing. Right?

关键在于创造平衡，拓宽思维疆域，激发良性辩论。很多人把团队成员视为完成任务的工具人，而我的哲学是：思考公司成功需要什么，然后找到在该领域最突出的人才，组建多元互补的团队。

And that's important. It's important to to create a balance and and really kind of increase the space that you're looking at and create those healthy debates. And I think a lot of people overlook that. I think some people think of, you know, people on a team as, like, warm bodies to do a job, but my philosophy has always been to think about, well, what is the what is the company need to be successful, and who's the best person who spikes at that one thing? And how do I make sure that that we get that person, and how do we make sure we get the other person and the other person?

这就像角色扮演游戏，每个人属性值不同。要打造一支各有所长的超级战队。营造这种环境氛围后，团队就能爆发出惊人能量。

It's almost like you're playing an RPG where everyone has different sliders, and you have to create this super team where everyone actually spikes in different in different ways. And that is something that I've had a lot of success with in terms of when you create that environment and you create that vibe, you're gonna get a lot of mileage out of that team.

这个观点非常新颖。你不是在说'制定正确激励'，而是主张招募具有天然不同视角的人才，让产品经理、设计师、工程师之间形成健康的张力。这比单纯设定KPI要可持续得多。

That is a really interesting answer. It's not one I've heard before. Essentially, you're it's not, like, create the right incentives. It's hire people that naturally want us see the world in a certain way, and that creates a balance and tension a healthy tension between, say, a PM and a designer and an engineer. That is really interesting because that feels a lot more sustainable than, like, here's your goal.

当目标变成'既要体验卓越又要降低客诉'时，如果团队成员本身就对这些目标有内在驱动力，效果会更好。

Okay. But also when your goal is make sure your experience is great and people support tickets are down, it's just like, naturally, need to want this to happen.

确实。实际上，我有一个框架，我认为产品经理大致可以分为五种类型，这个分类一直很准确。这个框架是在优步时与同事偶然讨论中形成的，我们当时是为了优化招聘流程。无论到哪里，我都会和招聘人员紧密合作，因为我的核心理念是必须组建合适的团队，所以我们需要深度配合。

Totally. And actually, there was a I I I have a a sort of a a framework around, like, I think there are five different types of product managers that has kind of held true. So this is a a a framework that just came out of a random jam at Uber when I was talking to some some of my my colleagues there, and we formulated this in terms of helping with hiring practices. Everywhere I've gone, I've also been, like, best friends with the recruiters because, honestly, my whole thing is, like, I gotta build the right team. So we have to really partner very deeply.

在优步期间，我们归纳出这五种PM原型。直到今天，我依然认为这个分类精准且经得起时间检验。不过这个话题有意思吗？我是说，我得详细展开说说。

And at Uber, we developed this this this this five archetypes of a PM. And I've to this day, I still think it's, like, actually exactly true, and it still holds true to this day. But is that interesting? I mean, I gotta go into that.

我太期待听你讲述这部分了。

I'm so excited to hear with you there.

这五种类型是我发现最具持久性且差异最显著的。对吧？就像你提到的——莱尼，我很欣赏你的表述——招聘合适的人选时，要关注他们天然被不同事物驱动的特性。这些就是我们总结出的五类人才。

These are the five that I found to be most enduring and actually the most, like, kinda different. Right? And and when you talk about I love the way you put this, Lenny, which is when you hire the right people and, like, how they're they're naturally motivated by different things. Right? And so these are the five that that we came up with.

第一类是消费者型PM。这类人像是设计师与产品人的结合体，对细节极度执着：体验够愉悦吗？打磨够精致吗？天啊——

Number one is the consumer PM. So this is the person that's, like, half designer, half product person, really obsessed over the details? Is it delightful? Is it crafted enough? Oh my goodness.

这个元素偏移了三个像素，我简直无法忍受，快把我逼疯了。为什么这么复杂？有时候批评型PM就是消费者型PM，但这只是其中一种亚型。

This is three pixels off. I can't stand it. This is, like, making driving me nuts. Like, why is this so complex? I mean, these are the people that you think of as, like, you know you know, sometimes the criticism PM is the consumer PM, but that's just one type.

对吧？与之相对的另一类，我们之前讨论过的是增长型PM。这些人像是数据科学家与产品人的混合体，天生习惯数据优先思维。最优秀的那些会自带一种气场：我非常怀疑，拿数据说话。

Right? And another type, just going on the other side, we've talked about before is the growth PM. These people are, like, half data scientist, half product person. They are kinda wired to think numbers first, and they have this kind of air about them that's like the best ones do, which is like, I'm really skeptical. Show me the data.

我们做个测试来验证，我不相信空谈。在框架里我先介绍这两类，因为他们本质截然不同。

Let's run a test and prove it. I don't believe you. Right? And it's and and I start with these two in the framework because they're actually really different. Right?

一类靠直觉：我能感受到这种调性，这样更好；另一类则说：不，除非你证明给我看。

One, it's like, I have vibe. I feel the vibe. This is better. And the other one's like, no. I don't believe you.

这种健康的张力很棒。我最爱看两个人在房间里辩论这个，觉得特别精彩。

We should test this and prove it. It. And that's, like, a really healthy tension. I love, you know, having two people in a room, like, debating that. I'm like, great.

我们将完成一些重要工作，推动产品向前发展。第三种类型是我所说的GMPM或商业产品经理。这些人兼具MBA和产品人的特质，天生擅长从商业模式出发，思考利润率等问题。

We are gonna get some good things done, and we're gonna we're gonna move the product forward. The third type is, you know, kind of what I call the GMPM or the business PM. Right? These are like, kind of half MBA, half product person. These are folks that are kind of naturally wired to start with the business model and think about what are the margins?

比如，机会在哪里？价值如何创造？优步有很多这类人才，他们就是市场平台产品经理。我非常喜欢和他们共事，因为他们的思维方式与众不同——总是从'这里的激励机制是什么？'出发思考问题。

Like, what are the opportunities? Where's the value being created? And we had a lot of these at at at Uber, and they were the marketplace PMs. And they're just like, I'd loved working with them because their their minds just work differently. They just thought about problems from, well, what is the incentive here?

这种思维模式非常迷人。还有一类比想象中更微妙，我称之为平台产品经理。这类人天生擅长为他人构建工具。在优步，我们有为消息系统或内部工具构建平台的团队。

Right? And you this is a fascinating type of mind to to to work with. Another one I I found this is it's it's it's actually more nuanced than you think. It's like, there's a certain sort of archetype that I call the platform PM, which is someone who's, like, really deeply wired to kinda build tools for other people. And at Uber, we had, like, internal platforms for, like, messaging or for, you know, building internal tools.

这类人才常被忽视，但这种思维模式其实非常深刻——正是他们构建的系统能加速整个组织。他们热爱这份工作。最后一种我过去称为算法产品经理，在AI时代我将其更名为研究型产品经理，他们兼具研究者、工程师和产品人的特质。

And oftentimes, these folks are overlooked, but it's, like, actually a really deep wiring because these are the people that are gonna build the systems that are gonna make you go faster. Right? And that's what they love doing. And the last one, I would say, I used to call an algorithms PM, but now in the in the in the the the world of of AI, I'm gonna rename this to research PM. And these are, like, half researcher, half engineer, half product person.

这类人才令人惊叹。传统谷歌搜索算法产品经理就是典型代表。而现在，真正具备产品品味又深刻理解技术、模型训练如何影响产品的人，才能打造最惊艳的产品。以上就是五种类型。

And these these minds are amazing. So, like, basically, they think, you know you know, traditional Google search algorithm PM. Right? But nowadays, it's like, who are the people who really have that product taste but deeply understand the tech and the, you know, the way the models are trained to go and affect that and build the most amazing product? So those are the five.

时至今日我仍认为这个分类站得住脚，当年在优步头脑风暴时我们就有所洞见。很期待听到你们的反馈。

I still think, to this day, these hold true, and we might have been onto something the day that we brainstormed this at Uber. But, yeah, I'm curious to hear your feedback.

太棒了。听你描述时，我一直在对号入座：这个人属于这类，那个人符合那类。

This is great. As you're talking, I'm just like, here's that person. Here's that person. Okay. They fit here.

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With AI powered analytics, automatic frustration detection, and clear visualizations, you'll know exactly what's working and what's holding your customers back. Whether you're optimizing an ecommerce checkout, refining a B2B lead flow, or improving a mobile app experience, ContentSquare pinpoints exactly what needs fixing and why. ContentSquare powers better customer journeys across 1,300,000 websites and apps. Discover the insights you've been missing at contentsquare.com/lenny. So just to summarize, there's consumer PMs, growth PMs, business slash GM PMs, platform PMs, and sort of research PMs.

现在很多人称最后一种为AI产品经理，我觉得这个称谓很贴切，这也是我们讨论的重点。

A lot of people call them AI PMs now. I feel like that's the term. That's what we talk about.

我们必须与时俱进。没错。但我觉得这个框架另一个有趣之处在于，每个人都像有一个主导类型和一个次要类型。嗯。这有点像那种性格测试。

We have to evolve with the times. Yeah. But, also, the other part of the framework I find kinda interesting is that everyone's like a primary has a primary one and a secondary one. Mhmm. It's kinda like one of those, like, personality tests.

对吧？也许我们这么做是因为很难将人简单归类，我自己也不认为能被标签化。但我确实认为人们往往会以某种思维方式为主导，同时用次要特质保持平衡。如果你认同这点并应用到团队中，我很想听听听众们的反馈——这个框架是否引起共鸣。或许它能帮你意识到团队里缺少了某类不该缺少的人才。

Right? And maybe we kinda did this just because it was hard to pigeonhole people, and I I myself don't think I was pigeonhole able. But I I do think that people, like, you know, kind of lead with one type of thinking and then also have the secondary thing that keeps them in balance. And so if you believe that and you apply it to your team, I'm curious to hear, you know, from your listeners, like, sort of if if this does resonate or not. And, you know, maybe this framework will help you realize that you're missing someone that that you should be not missing.

你当产品经理时属于哪种类型？

What was your archetype when you were a PM?

这就是性格类型的另一个特点——当你听到某种描述时会立刻认同：这就是我，毫无疑问。

This is and and that's the other thing with personality types is the ones you hear. You're like, this is me. This is I I own this. Right? There's no doubt about it.

我是消费型PM也是增长型PM，但本质上是消费型。就像我之前说的，我能洞察产品细节并深表欣赏，但归根结底我们还是要量化结果。

I am a consumer PM and also a growth PM. That's that's my I'm primarily consumer. I just I I can't and this is what I told you about, you know, the other products I've loved. I've I've see the I can see the details that people put into it, and I so appreciate that. But at the end of day, it's like, we gotta measure things.

这就是我的特质。不过重申下，每个人都是不同的。

Right? So that's what I am. But, you know, again, everyone's different.

你提到很多人对PM的认知很有趣——他们听到第一个例子就觉得‘哦这就是优秀产品经理该有的样子’。但你说成功PM有很多种形态。我在Airbnb做过性格测试，最大的收获是那个色彩测试（绿色/黄色/红色）。

I love your point about how a lot of people think of PM. Like, they hear that first example. They're like, oh, I guess that's what I need to be, that's because what everyone talks about when they're amazing product managers. But you're saying there's many other ways to be a successful PM. We did a personality test at Airbnb when I was there, and one of the biggest takeaways was it's like this color test, and you get a color green or yellow or red.

团队成员分布在所有光谱上。这很好地提醒我们：不同类型的人都能成为出色的PM。可能正因为PM有不同的原型和职责——虽然都叫产品经理，但工作内容千差万别。

And, like, the team was all over the spectrum. And so and it was a really good reminder just you can be a different type of person and still be really successful in this role of PM. And it's probably because of these different archetypes and different needs and roles of PMs. Like, there's this word product manager, but there's many things that PMs do.

作为投资人，我现在很看重创始人市场匹配度。把消费型PM放进枯燥的监管行业，他们可能会沮丧放弃。但当你看到有人激情满满地要为某个领域打造工具时——比如Twilio型PM——你会觉得这就是天作之合。

And also as an investor now, it's really important to see the fit of the founder to the market. Because if you put a consumer PM into, like, a really, you know, boring regulated industry, they're probably gonna get frustrated, and they're probably not gonna see it through. Whereas, like, there's people that you look at, you know, the pitch, and you're like, wow. This is you are really passionate about this problem, and you really care about building tools for others. And this is exactly this is the Twilio PM or, you know, whatever it might be.

你完美契合这个事业，这太棒了。你刚才的总结我很认同：没有唯一正确的PM路径。希望这个框架能给人们更多展现真我的空间。

You're a perfect fit for this business, and, like, that's awesome. Right? So I think that yeah. I I love that what you just said in in the summary because I think there's no one way to be a PM, and I think this is sort of the hopefully, this framework will get give people a little bit more space to be you know, express who they really are.

我很好奇其他职能是否也有类似设计师和工程师这样的原型分类，不过我们不必深入探讨。如果你在YouTube上听到这段内容，不妨留言告诉我你认为自己属于哪种原型。你的主要和次要类型是什么？我再重复一遍：消费型产品经理、增长型产品经理、商业/总经理型产品经理、平台型产品经理、研究/人工智能型产品经理。

I'm curious if other functions also have these sort of archetypes like designers and engineers, but we don't need to get into that. How about if you're listening to this on YouTube, leave a comment of which of these archetypes you think you might be. What's your primary and secondary? I'll read them again. Consumer PM, growth PM, business slash GM PM, platform PM, research slash AI PM.

说得好。

Love it.

好的。我想谈谈招聘。这其实是我和与你共事过的人聊天时经常提到的话题，尤其是ChatGPT的产品主管尼克·特利，我们正试图邀请他上播客，因为...

Okay. I wanna talk about hiring. So this actually came up a lot when I was chatting with folks that you've worked with, especially Nick Turley, who's head of product at ChatGPT who are trying to get on the podcast because that's an what I

他非常出色。

He's awesome.

我也是这么听说的。他告诉我ChatGPT现任的工程主管、首席产品工程师、设计主管和营销主管都是你招聘的。而且你招聘的许多人后来都成就非凡。你提到过其中一些名字，他们中不少人已经上过这个播客——这可是衡量成功的终极标准。

That's what I've heard. So he told me that the current head of engineering, the lead product engineer, the head of design and head of marketing at ChatGPT are people that you hired. Also, many of the people that you hired have gone on to do incredible things. You've shared a few of those names. Many of them have been on the podcast, which is the ultimate measure of success.

所以我想请教：在招聘时，你认为人们普遍忽视但能帮你发现顶尖人才的某个特质是什么？

So let me just ask you this. What's what's one thing you look for in people you hire that you think are that you think people sleep on, that you think people aren't paying enough attention to that helps you find amazing stars?

尼克这么说真是过奖了。他绝对是我共事过最优秀的人之一。事实上，我想特别提一下OpenAI的团队，他们几乎是我职业生涯中合作过最杰出的人才。当初接受这份工作时，我就告诉团队这将是我最后一个运营岗位，我会全力以赴。

That's really flattering to hear that from Nick. Nick is one of the best people I've worked with, period. In fact, I wanna just do a quick shout out of, like, folks at OpenAI, I I are are pretty much the best people I've ever worked with in my career. When I took the job, I told the team this is gonna be my last operating role, and I'm gonna leave it all on the field. And I'm just gonna go all all out.

基本上，我在招聘和团队建设上花费的时间可能比思考产品还多。这回到我之前说的：必须把合适的人聚集起来才能产生巨大影响。但领导者常常忽视这点，觉得'有个活人就行'。实际上，不同领域专长的人会形成绝佳互补，这样的团队能创造奇迹。

And, basically, I spent probably as much time, if not more time, on recruiting and building the team than I as I did sort of thinking about the product. And this is going back to sort of what I said earlier about I think you gotta bring the right people together to have a huge impact. And oftentimes leaders overlook this, and they're like, oh, it's just a warm body. But truly, you know, people who have strengths in certain areas complement others with strengths in other areas. And when you build that team, amazing things happen.

这是最值得的投资，回报不可估量。所以我的开场白是：所有听众都该审视自己的团队，明确需求并争取每个岗位的最优人选。在OpenAI的告别晚宴上，我最后说道——

It's the it's the best investment you can make. It's gonna pay off so many dividends. So I think that's my opening salvo in terms of, like, you know, you gotta get the everyone who's listening out there, you gotta make sure you look at everyone in your team. You should look at what you need, and you have to get the best in each. And truly, like, you know, in in in in my farewell dinner at OpenAI, I think I I I closed with just the the like, look.

我甚至不知道今后该做什么，因为所有最优秀的同事都在这里。设计团队有伊恩·西尔伯，托马斯·迪姆森，还有乔伊·弗林、瑞安·奥鲁克，尼克·特利也是我在那里遇到的杰出人才，乔安妮...太多名字了：产品营销的科利，市场传播的埃里克·安蒂诺，工程师索尔玛...这份名单可以一直列下去。产品运营团队更是星光熠熠。

I don't even know what I would do after this because all the best people I've worked with are here. We have Ian Silber running design there, Thomas Dimson, you know, Joey Flynn, right, Ryan O'Rourke, Nick Turley was amazing person I met there, Joanne. I mean, just I have so many people I'm missing, but, you know, Coley on product marketing, Eric Antinow on the marketing comms side, Solma on engineer. You you you you the name the list goes on. Product operations is is is stellar.

说实话，比起产品，我更为自己在那里打造的团队感到无比自豪。我想特别强调这一点。这确实是我非常重视的大事，也希望更多领导者能意识到——要像对待产品一样，用心组建你的团队。这需要精心雕琢，需要你真正关心团队。

I'm so proud of, like, honestly, the the team that I built there more than than the products. So I just wanted to say that. It's just like it's it's a it's a big thing that I really care about, and I hope more leaders think about that too is, like, really be mindful of putting your team together and and thinking about that as a product. And you have to really craft that. You have to really care about the team.

对吧？

Right?

在你分享下个建议前，我想深入探讨这个观点——我太喜欢这个回答了。你知道吗，如果我问别人'你的招聘建议是什么？人们容易忽略哪些特质？'多数答案会聚焦于应聘者个人，比如'该关注这些方面'或'该问这个面试题'。但你给出的宏观答案是：重点不在于个人，而在于团队构成——我们需要在哪些方面突出？如何平衡这支正在组建的'复仇者联盟'的阵容？

Just to double down on that point actually before you get to the next tip here is, I just love this answer, which is ins you know, if I were to ask someone, here's hire what's your hiring advice? What do you look for that people may not be looking for enough? I love that most of it would be like, in that person, here's what you need to focus on, and here's the interview question. And but the like, kind of your broad answer so far is it's not actually about the person so much as what is the team gonna look like and where do we need spikes? Where do we need to balance out the composition of this Avengers that we're building?

完全正确。太棒了。正是如此。既然说到这里，按照我的风格，关于组建合适团队，我有两点想分享。

Totally. Awesome. Totally. That's exactly right. And so so that being said, I I guess I have I guess on brand, I have two things I wanna share about sort of hiring the right team.

我有句座右铭。其实我带着一份叫《PXD API》的文档辗转多家公司，内容是'如何与我共事'。里面有句话代表了我对每位下属和招聘对象的核心要求：如果六个月后还需要我告诉你该怎么做，那就是我招错了人。这个准则在三个不同层面都让我受益匪浅，对吧？

I have this saying. I actually have this, like, doc that I've taken around various companies called the PXD API, which is like, here's how to work with me. And in it, there's there's there's a saying that I have, which is what I really optimize for for everyone that I support and everyone I hire, which is in six months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person. And it's just kind of served me really well as on three different levels. Right?

首先，这是对我自己的提醒，无论是招聘还是寻找人选时，都要把标准定得极高，绝不将就。因为如果妥协了，很可能六个月后，我无法真正放手让这个人独立运作，仍需要事无巨细地指导——这完全违背了我的初衷。第二个连带效应是：我会在团队成员入职或决定录用时明确传达这个标准，让他们清楚这就是衡量成功的基准。

Number one, it's a reminder for myself when I'm either hiring or looking for the person is to keep my bar super high and just not settle. Because if I do, most likely in six months, it would not be true that I that I would be able to let this person run, and I would still be telling them what to do, which is not what I want. That is not my desire. The second sort of effect of that is that it's I say that to people, you know, when they come on the team or when or as we're making their fire hire because, you know, it communicates to them that that's my bar, and that's how they know they'll be successful. Right?

这同时也成为他们努力的方向。第三点则是我们双方的共同目标：它帮助我和对方建立更高层次的协作关系——重点不在于'你完成这个OKR了吗？'，而是更本质的追求：我们是否足够精准地校准方向？六个月后能否实现由你来主导决策？

And something to kinda work towards. Right? And the third thing is kind of a joint thing for the both of us, which is it kinda gives us it helps me and the person operate on a different level where it's not the goal is not like, did you hit this OKR? Did you hit this goal? The the the meta goal becomes, hey.

我们真的在朝这个目标迈进吗？在这样的框架下，任何一方犯的错都会转化为学习机会——我们该如何从中成长，才能在六个月内达到理想状态？

Are we building you know, are we calibrating enough? Are we actually getting to a spot where in six months, like, you're the one telling me what needs to be done? Like like, are we are we getting there? Right? Because then if if that's the framing, every, you know, mistake that, you know, is made or whatever on either of our our parts is becomes a learning opportunity in terms of, like, well, how do we grow to to from this to where we wanna be in six months?

作为管理者，我该如何创造条件让这个人成功，确保六个月后只需最低限度介入？这三个原则形成的二阶效应就像剃刀般锋利：如果六个月后还需要我指挥，那就意味着招错了人。

Right? And how is it possible that, you know, I, as a as a manager, can do the right things to set this person up for success so that I only have to be involved in six Right? And I think that those those three things, like and and and being able to have that second order effect of, like, this simple razor. In six months, I'm telling you what to do. I've hired the wrong person.

这个标准既鞭策着我，也激励着对方，创造出一种独特的氛围——安全的思考空间让我们持续审视是否在向目标靠近。回顾所有经历，比起打造产品，我更以团队建设为荣，这带给我无与伦比的满足感。而这条准则，正是我两大管理秘诀之一。

It puts pressure on me. It puts pressure on the person, and it creates this really interesting environment and and this kind of safe space to really think about, are we heading towards that goal? And, again, every place I've been at, as much as I've loved building the product, I've taken so much pride in building the team, and it's just been so much of a pleasure. And I think this is my one of the two secrets that I have here.

这太棒了。我想接着问一个问题，但首先要指出为何我认为这如此高明——这里隐含着一个前提，即这个人值得信任。所以问题在于：我是否信任这个人？我觉得他们会积极主动吗？他们是否具备正确的洞察力，本质上就是品味和直觉？

This is so good. I wanna have I wanna have a follow-up question, but just to point out why I think this is so genius is it there's kind of a assumption here of this person, you can trust them. So there's like, do I trust this person? Do I feel like they're gonna be proactive? Do I feel like they're gonna have, correct insights, essentially taste and gut feeling?

这就像潜藏在这个问题之下的深层逻辑，非常精妙。还有这种自主性——自主性几乎暗示了你想要雇佣的人应具备的许多重要特质。我特别喜欢这个问题对双方都如此简洁明了的方式。

It's like the layer below this question, which is great. And also just this, like, autonomy. It feels like you've autonomy almost implies so many important traits of somebody that you want to hire. And I love just how simple this question is for both you and them

要做得更好。实际上，关于自主性，我非常赞同你的观点。因为作为领导者或管理者，你的目标是实现规模化。如果连这个简单的陈述都不成立，你如何能打造最好的公司、最好的产品？

to do well. And and, really, with that autonomy, I love what you said about autonomy because truly, if without as as a leader, as a manager, your goal is to scale. And if you don't have if this thing, this simple statement is not true, how are you able to build the best company, the best product?

那么接下来这个问题：这主要是针对领导者吗？比如Jet GPT的产品负责人？如果某人不是首席产品官，只是一个产品经理团队的经理，你觉得这个问题的某个版本对他们有用吗？还是说这主要适用于高层领导者？

So here's the follow-up question. Is this mostly for leaders, like, say, of product at Jet GPT? Say someone's not a CPO. They're just like, I don't know, a manager of a PM team. Do you find is there a version of this that you think might be useful to them, or is this mostly for leaders?

我认为这适用于所有人，任何担任管理角色的人。因为无论你在哪家公司，要想成为成功的管理者或领导者——即使你刚开始担任一线经理，或者希望成长，甚至只是在一家初创公司积累了丰富的内部知识——能够传递你学到的智慧以获得更大影响力，对成功至关重要。所以每位管理者都应该以这种方式对待他们的职责，这对所有人都有益。

I think this is for everyone. I think it's for everyone who is a manager. Right? Because, you know, if you're gonna be a successful manager at any company or a leader at any company, and if you're if you're kind of starting as a line manager or what not, and you're kind of, you know, wanting to grow or even just wanting to you know, if if you're early at a company, you have so much institutional knowledge, and so getting more sort of leverage in terms of being able to pass on the wisdom that you've learned is so crucial into being successful that I think every manager should should approach their, you know, their their puts with this. Because truly, like, that's it's just good for everyone.

这对公司来说能获得更多影响力和规模效益；对加入团队的人来说，他们能明确成功的标准并获得成长路径；对你作为领导者或管理者而言，这能全面提升团队的专业能力。

It's good for the company to have more kind of leverage and and scale. It's good for the the person who is being brought onto the team because they know what success looks like, and it gives them a path to kind of keep on growing. And it's great for you as a leader, as a manager, to be able to basically scale up the entire sort of expertise of your team.

而且我觉得你甚至不需要刻意避免指导他们。这个问题本身就是很好的透镜，能判断他们是否优秀——即使你原本计划要告诉他们该怎么做。

And I imagine you don't even need to plan to not tell them what to do. Like, it's just a good lens into, are they gonna be amazing even if you plan to be telling them sort of what to do.

没错。另外在面试过程中，你最终会寻找这些洞察力——那些能预示他们是否可能在六个月内达成目标的行为表现。这不仅能帮你在选拔时看清候选人，对后续培养也很有帮助。

Yeah. Exactly. And and and the other thing is, like, again, in your interview process, you kind of end up looking for these insights. Insights. Right?

这会为你在人才选拔（而不仅是培养）方面提供非常清晰的视角。

And you look for, like, the behaviors of, oh, are they actually gonna be potentially able to to to achieve this in six months? And that's gonna give you a really good lens on the picking side, not just the development side as well.

Peter，你的第二个秘诀是什么？现在是一比一平。

Peter, what's your second secret? This is one for one.

是的。好的。第二点我想说的是，我对此感受非常强烈，那就是我最看重的特质是成长型思维。实际上，我在Facebook的管理生涯中某个阶段意识到了这一点，当时我确实犯了个错误，雇佣了一个缺乏这种思维的人，这非常棘手，因为你看，我根本没时间委婉地给出反馈。

Yeah. Okay. The second one I'd say is I I feel really strongly about this, which is, you know, the area that I look for most is growth mindset. And I actually came to this, you know, some point in my management career at Facebook where I real you know, I did make a mistake and hired someone who just didn't quite have that growth mindset, and it was really difficult because, you know, yeah, the way I say it look. I don't have time to sugarcoat any feedback.

对吧？坦白说，与我共事最出色的人，是那些在一对一会议中会直接指出我错误的人。我欣赏这种坦诚，因为这样没有任何未尽之言，我们能推动事情向前发展——比如讨论如何从中进步。我觉得成长型思维是那种到了一定年龄就很难培养的东西，Lenny。

Right? And frankly, like, the best people I work with are the people who come into one on ones with me and yell at me and telling them I'm I'm messing up. Like, that's I love that because that's there's no nothing left unsaid, and we're able to kinda move the ball forward of like, hey. Like, how do we get better from this? And I feel like growth mindset's one of those things, Lenny, that feels really hard to teach at a certain age.

这对我家庭至关重要。我要求自己、孩子和同事都具备成长型思维，因为它能营造一个开放的环境，让大家思考‘我能在哪方面改进’。‘每天进步1%’的理念才能真正实现。有趣的是，每当我在ChatGeeBee或Uber团队担任最终面试官时，我坚持只考察这一点——不评估产品感觉、设计能力、执行力或数据指标，只专注成长型思维。

And this is really important to me and my family. I expect growth mindset of myself, of my kids, you know, my my colleagues at work, because I think it just, like, creates this environment where everyone is open to, like, what's the one thing I can get better at? And, you know, the whole get 1% better every day can become true. And it's it's funny because, like, I whenever I go to teams like ChatGeeBee or Uber, when I'm always the final interview for someone in my org and I partner with recruiting and developing that the rubric, I always insist on doing the last interview, and I do not product sense. I don't do design.

别人可能觉得这很疯狂——其他重要素质呢？但我的逻辑是：其他面试官会评估那些方面，而成长型思维对我构建一个自省、追求进步、乐于接受和给予反馈的团队至关重要，这是我认为的元能力解锁关键。

I don't do execution. I don't do metrics. I only do growth mindset. And it's kind of like, well, that's crazy. Like, what about all of these other attributes?

如果没有成长型思维，不接受反馈和学习，那就是最根本的阻碍。这种情况下，给予反馈、学习新技能或实现有意义的成长都会变得极其困难。因此我发现这才是最核心的要素。

I'm like, well, I'm pretty sure I can trust the other people to assess the other attributes. But I think the growth mindset thing is so important to me that that we build a org where where people are self reflective and want to get better and take that feedback and give that feedback. And it just is this meta unlock that I found to be true. And, really, if you don't have growth mindset, then and you're not open to feedback, you're not open to learning, then that's like the the the meta blocker. Right?

到那种程度，你知道，反馈难以传达，新技能难以掌握，任何实质性发展都举步维艰。所以我认为这才是真正关键的部分。

At that point, you know, it's hard to give feedback. It's hard to, you know, onboard to a new skill. It's hard to kind of develop in any sort of meaningful way. And so I've I found that to be, like, the the the really critical piece.

你刚才说的非常重要——作为首席产品官、产品负责人，你的面试重点不是‘你是否是优秀的产品经理’或‘是否有产品品味’这类问题，而是成长型思维。

That's a big deal what you just said there that essentially as the CPO, head of product, big product leader at a company, your interview is not like, are you an amazing product manager? Are you do you have products taste? Things like that. It's a growth mindset.

我想澄清一下：因为设计师、工程主管等已经考察了其他能力，这正体现了前一个原则——我信任团队能评估那些方面。但我最关心的是成长型思维，这是我的聚焦点。当然如果其他方面有弱信号，我也会关注，但最终面试的核心始终是成长型思维。

And and I just wanna clarify. It's because everyone that has all the other things have been interviewed by the designer, by the engineering lead, etcetera, and that's where that, you know, kind of the previous principle comes into play as well in terms of I I do trust my team to go and assess those people. Right? But the one thing that I care so much about is growth mindset, and that's kind of the the thing. And and to be honest, I do do a little bit of a sweep.

所以如果其他方面出现弱信号，我会介入。但我的终面核心始终聚焦于成长型思维。

So if if some we got weak signal on one of those areas, I'll do it. But the the pure sort of focus of my last interview is gonna be on growth mindset.

好的。我需要请教你具体如何考察。不过在问这个之前，当你谈到成长型思维时，我脑海中浮现Marc Benioff在播客中的画面。我曾问他：在这个瞬息万变、企业互相颠覆的世界里领导公司是什么感受。

Okay. Well, I need to ask you what that looks like. But before I do, when you talk about growth mindset, I have this image of Marc Benioff on the podcast. And I asked him just like, there's so much changing all the time. It's such a crazy world to be leading a company in this world where just everyone's disrupting each other.

人工智能正在改变一切。它的发展速度快得惊人。每天都有新的突破，你必须跟上节奏，这该怎么应对呢？而他的态度是，你应该觉得这是好事。这太棒了。

AI is changing everything. It's just like moving so fast. Every day there's a new, you know, breakthrough and you have to keep track and just like, how do you deal with that? And he's like, you should be thinking, good. This is amazing.

现在正是创业的最佳时机。机会如此之多，令人振奋。这正是我们想要的。完全正确。很好。

This is the best time to be building. There's so much opportunity, so exciting. This is what we want. Exactly. Good.

我只记得他看待这件事的态度就是，很好。

I just remember him seeing it like, good.

我很喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

我觉得这就是成长型思维的典范。

I feel like that's the epitome of growth mindset.

没错。绝对如此。

Yep. Absolutely.

好的。那么我想问问你，如何辨别出强大的成长型思维？有哪些方法？

Okay. So let me ask you just what do you how do you tease out a strong growth mindset? What are some ways?

幸好我现在不是运营者了，因为我要透露我的面试问题，这样没人能在这方面作弊。所以我觉得这也是现在做这个播客的绝佳时机之一。多年来我一直问同一个问题，通过这个问题你就能看出端倪——我会让他们思考自己犯过的最严重的错误之一。越痛苦越好，告诉我这个错误是什么。描述当时的情况，并告诉我你现在因此改变了哪些思考和工作方式。

Well, good thing I'm not an operator anymore because I'm gonna give away my interview questions, so no one can, like, cheat on this. So I I feel like this is another reason why this is such a great time to do this podcast. The question I asked is it's been the same one I've asked for years, and you can really, you know, kinda suss it out from this, which is I I ask them, think about the one of the biggest mistakes you've made. Like, truly, the most the more painful, the better, and tell me what the mistake was. Describe to me the situation, and tell me actually how you actually think differently now, work differently as a result.

比如，这个错误如何成为了你的核心原则之一？等等。我会给他们时间思考。必要时我甚至会分享自己的一些错误。有趣的是，因为这个问题我问过太多次，如果他们不够真诚，我立刻就能嗅出胡扯的味道。明白吗？

Like, how has that turned into a core principle of yours, etcetera? And I give them a moment to think about it. Sometimes I even share some of my mistakes if need be. And it's interesting because because I've asked this question so many times, I can smell the BS if they're not being authentic. Right?

就像那种'我工作太拼命了'或者'我做了某件事'之类的敷衍回答，你完全能看出对方是否愿意展现脆弱面。我也会以诚相待——如果他们问我的错误，我会如实相告。对吧？

It's like, you know, kind of like, oh, I've worked too hard or I, you know, did this thing, and and they're really not being that. You can tell the vulnerability that people are willing to express. And I reciprocate with that. Because if they ask me what mine is, I will tell them what it is. Right?

这就是那种氛围。最终发生的情况是，这之所以非常有趣有多个原因。其一，你能感受到他们的反思深度。有位女士和我聊了足足一小时，因为她正在向我讲述她犯下的一个惊人错误，以及这个错误如何改变了她和公司的工作方式，简直令人难以置信。

And then that's the vibe. Then what ends up happening is, like, there's multiple reasons why this is really interesting. One, you get to get a sense of how reflective they are. And there were some there's one woman I I I was was chatting with, and we actually went on for, an hour because she was just, like, educating me on this, like, amazing problem that she had made this mistake on and, like, how it changed the way that she worked and the company worked. It was just incredible.

对吧？你能感受到那种热情，能辨别什么是真诚的。当然偶尔也会遇到一些人显得比较防备，不太愿意敞开心扉。

Right? And you can you can sense the passion. You can sense what's genuine. Right? And then there are always, once in a while, those those those things that people are, like, just very a little bit more defensive and not willing to open up.

我认为这种一对一的环境是安全的。实际上这并不偏向内向或外向的人，那一刻展现的都是真实自我。第二个连带效应是，如果他们加入团队，你们已经有过那样的深度交流时刻。

And I think that's and it's safe. It's a it's a one on one setting, so it's a safe space. And I'm you know, it's also it's I I don't think it actually selects for or against introverts or extroverts. I think at that point, it's really genuine. And the second sort of odor effect there is if they end up coming on the team, you've already had that moment.

你们已经有过那样的时刻，彼此坦诚过'看，这就是我搞砸的地方'。而事实证明这完全没问题，这不是失败。

You've already had that moment where you've just already said, like, hey. Like, this is where I really messed up. And guess what? It's all okay. It's not a loss.

这是一堂课。对吧？这为工作关系奠定了不同的基调。虽然我从未做过AB测试，但这种方式在我工作风格中非常有用——无论是与直接下属还是组织成员，都能建立这种深度的连接。

It's a lesson. Right? And so it just sets a different tone for your working relationship. So, again, I've never AB tested this, so I can't tell you if this is actually either works or not. But I found it to be very helpful in the style that I work in to be able to have that level of connection, whether it's with a direct report or somebody in the org.

这个回答让我联想到本播客的固定环节'失败角'，我可能会把这个环节调整得更接近你这个问题。让我总结一下你发现的这两个帮你找到超级明星员工的问题：其一是你会问'如果六个月后还需要我告诉你该怎么做，说明我招错了人'——你具体是怎么表述的？

What I love about this answer is it's very much like Fail Corner, which is a recurring segment on this podcast, and I might tweak Fail Corner to be even closer to this question. Okay. So let me summarize these two, essentially two questions that you found to be really helpful in finding these superstars that you've hired over the years. One is you ask people, in six months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person. Or I guess, how do you say it when you say it to someone?

大概就是'你可能就是那个错误人选'这样？

Just like, you're probably the right wrong person.

其实表述略有不同。在我的工作原则中有五个特质描述什么样的人能与我高效合作，其中一条就类似'应该是你来告诉我该做什么，而不是反过来'。

Well, it's it's actually framed a little bit differently. It's in so there's there's five different sort of part of my API or just how to work best with me, there's, like, five attributes of people that that are most successful who who who work with me and I love working with. And and one of them is framed as sort of like, you know, that that they're you're telling me what to do, not the other way around.

在加入六个月后。

Six months after joining.

对。然后我会补充说'如果六个月后还是我在告诉你该怎么做，那就是我招错人了'。

Right. Right. And then I I follow-up with in six months, if I'm still telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person.

明白

Got

对吧？我觉得这就是我理解它的方式。

it. Right? And think that is that's that's how I frame it.

好的。顺便说一句，你应该开源这个PXD API文档。

Okay. By the way, you should open source this p PXD d API doc.

我很乐意。现在我觉得没什么好隐瞒的了。我就像一本打开的书，也许我们以后会这么做。

I would love to. I think now I got nothing to hide. I'm just like, here. I'm an open book, so maybe we'll do that at some point.

你会你会

You'll you'll

你会让我有勇气这么做。好吧，也许在这期播客之后。

you'll you'll make me brave enough to do that Okay. Maybe after this podcast.

所以你可能会在播客的节目笔记里找到那个文档的链接。

So you may find a link in the show notes for this podcast to that doc.

如果我有足够的勇气。

If I'm brave enough.

好的。然后你问的另一个问题是，让我讲一个关于你失败的故事，一个你推出的产品失败了，以及这如何改变了你的行为方式、你对产品的思考方式和你运营的方式。是的。很棒。好的。

Okay. And then the the other question you ask is tell me essentially a a story of when you failed, a product that you launched failed, and how that changed, how you behave, how you think about product, how you operate. Yeah. Amazing. Okay.

太好了。好的，我们来谈谈管理。

Great. Okay. Let's talk about management.

当然。

Sure.

所以这件事出现了。我和一些与你共事过的人聊过，有趣的是，那些反复出现的主题之一，不是关于AI或招聘（虽然也提到一些），而主要是关于你作为管理者的高超技能。这些在我们之前的谈话中已经有所体现。所以我想在这里讨论几个方面。当然。

So this came up. So I talked to a bunch of people that have worked with you, and interestingly, one of those recurring themes, it wasn't about, like, AI or hiring came up a bit, but it's actually mow mostly about how skilled you are as a manager. And this all has already come through in a lot of the things we've talked about. So I wanna talk about a couple things here. Sure.

一个是，你在OpenAI共事过的Joanna Jeng，还是

One is, someone that you worked with at at OpenAI, Joanna Jeng, or is

是Joanne。Joanne。

it Joanne. Joanne.

Joanne Jeng还是Ying？对。

Joanne Jeng or Ying? Yeah.

Jeng。

Jeng.

Jeng。好的。酷。你和她一起在OpenAI工作过，她分享了几件我觉得非常有意思的事。一是你通过教她如何更有效地向上管理，对她的职业生涯产生了深远影响，而你教她的只是一个她经常使用的简单短语。

Jeng. Okay. Cool. You worked with her at OpenAI, and she shared a couple things that I I think are really interesting. One is that you had a profound impact on her career by teaching her how to manage up more effectively, and you did that by teaching her a really simple phrase that she just says and uses.

首先，你还记得那个短语是什么吗？

First of all, do you remember what that phrase is?

我说过很多话，已经有点忘了——我常常忘记自己说过什么，所以你可能得提醒我。

I've said a lot of stuff and I've kind of forgotten I tend to forget what I say, so my you might have to remind me.

好的。她说这个技巧是：承诺要做的事，把事情做完，然后汇报已完成。嗯。作为向上管理的技巧。那么当然。就谈谈这个，这个方法的威力以及它的意义。

Okay. So she said, say you'll do the thing, do the thing, say you did the thing Mhmm. As a skill of managing up. So Sure. Just talk about that, just the power of that and what that's all about.

我是说，听着。我在优步工作时从负责公关传播与政策的Jill那里学到了这一点。她有句口头禅：重复不会破坏祈祷。人们总是很忙，这很自然。所以无论是向上管理还是管理整个团队，如果你不重复你的目标、不重复你的愿景、不重复你坚信正在做的事情——比如向你的经理汇报——我认为你可能会迷失真正重要的东西。

I mean, look. I I I learned this from my time at Uber from Jill who runs PR comms and policy there. And she used have the saying, which is like repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. It's just a a natural thing where people are busy. So whether, you know, if you say about managing up or even managing, you know, the entire org, if you don't repeat what your goals are, if you don't repeat what your vision is, if you don't repeat the thing that you feel strongly about, that what you're doing, what you're you know, whether it's maybe to your manager, one, I think you might lose sight of the thing that's important.

我觉得这涉及行为模式。这又是语言影响思维的例证。通过把这个短语教给Joanne，其实就是在说：我们要对所构建的东西保持高度自觉。

And I think this is where it's a little bit of behavior. This is another language affecting thought thing. Right? By by by by giving this this phrase to Joanne, maybe it was just like, hey. Let's just be very intentional about what we build.

这就成了持续提醒。明白吗？它还有另一个效果：当你说'我正在做这个'时，如果你的经理表示'等等，我们不需要再做这个了'，你们就能展开对话，而不是闷头做事却不声明。

That's like that becomes a a constant reminder. Right? And it it also has this other effect where, if you're saying this is what I'm doing, and then that's a thing that your manager is like, wait. We don't need to do that anymore. You can have a conversation about that as opposed to just, like, doing the thing and not saying that you're doing it.

让我退一步说。首先，声明你要做的事。通过这个步骤，你就能与经理——其实和任何人都可以——校准目标：我们到底要做什么？

So let me take a step back. So one, say what you're gonna do. And then in that in that exercise, you're gonna be able to calibrate with your manager, again, with anyone. Right? What is it that we're gonna do?

回到我之前说的，措辞非常重要。要明确目标并精心设计，用最精炼的概念传达最大冲击力。然后进入第二阶段：在一对一会议或团队全员会上声明'这就是我们在做的事'。

And it's I think the words are really important here going back to what I said earlier. So figuring out what is that goal and crafting that to really pack the most punch and the densest of of of concepts. Right? And then you're telling them that you're doing it, which that's the second phase, which is like, well, in your one on ones or in your in your your your your team all hands, you're saying this is what we're doing. Right?

这是重申行动方向或发起'是否需要调整目标'对话的最佳时机。最后必须闭环汇报，简单说句'好，已完成'。

It's a great time to reaffirm what you're doing or invite the conversation that this is no longer the thing to do. And you gotta tell them that you did it. So just close the loop. Just be like, okay. Great.

现在事情完成了。这又是个言简意赅却能产生行为层面二阶效应的短语。某种程度上这是帮助人们的技巧——有趣的是Joanne认为这是向上管理，确实如此。但在我看来，这更像是我们的运作方式：通过这种模式保持专注、追踪目标，并在目标失效时及时调整。

This is now done. And I think that's again, it's one of those, like, really pithy phrases that has so many second order effects that are behavioral almost. And this is a little bit of a hack in terms of helping people you know, it's funny that Joanne thought of it as managing up, which is which it is. But in my mind, it's almost like this is how we operate, and this is how we're successful to stay on stay on task, stay on goal, and be able to revisit the goals that we've set when they no longer are relevant.

好的。再重复下这个短语：说要做事，去做事，然后说已做完。

Okay. So the phrase again is say you'll do the thing, do the thing, and then say that you did the thing.

抱歉更正下，我的表述是：声明要做的事，声明正在做的事，最后声明已完成。

It's actually sorry. One more time. It's it's it's say it's the way I would say it is say you're gonna do the thing, say that you're doing the thing, and then say that you did it.

这让我想起演讲建议。不知是Guy Kawasaki还是谁说过类似的话：预告要讲的内容，展开讲述，最后总结刚讲过的内容。

This reminds me of, this also works for presentation advice. So this came up. I I don't know if it was Guy Kawasaki or someone had a very similar phrase that was for how to present well, which is tell them what you're gonna tell them, tell them, And then tell them what you just told them.

要知道，可能是我从那里植入的这个说法，所以我并不拥有这个短语的所有权。我只想说，是的，我确实重复了它。

That you know, it's possible that I might have, you know, incepted it from there, so I take no ownership over this phrase. I will just say that, yes, I did I did repeat it.

这太棒了。我喜欢这不仅仅是向上管理的建议，而是适用于每个人的操作建议。最后部分的隐含意思是，确保人们知道你所做的。几乎像是，确保你得到一些认可，人们理解你所产生的影响。

This is great. And I love that this isn't just managing up advice. It's just, like, operating advice for everyone. And that there's an implication of the last part is just, like, take like, make sure people know what you did. Like, almost, like, make sure that you get some credit and people understand the the impact you've Which

这很重要。我认为有很多内向的人不想引起注意，也没有英雄情结。我认为这些人在组织中往往会被忽视。所以如果这描述的是你，记得说出你所做的事。

is which is important. I think there's a lot of people who are kind of introverted and don't wanna draw attention and don't have the hero complex. And I think that those people tend to get lost in in organizations. So if that describes you, just remember to to say what you did.

Joanne分享的另一个管理特质我想多谈一点，那就是你非常擅长帮助人们理解他们可以发挥自己的优势，而不必觉得自己需要适应某种框架。她分享说你基本上帮助她在OpenAI内创建了一个几乎全新的角色，这在之前是不存在的。也许可以分享一下这个例子，然后谈谈为什么这很重要，你是如何看待这一点的。

There's another management trait that Joanne shared that I wanna spend a little time on, which is you're very good at helping people understand that they can lean into their strengths and not feel like they need to fit into a certain box. She shared that you basically helped her create almost a new role within OpenAI that wasn't even a thing before. So just maybe share that example, and then just talk about why this is important, how you think about this.

我很高兴我们在谈论Joanne教给你的事情，因为Joanne真的很特别。我得花点时间好好表扬她一下。她是我共事过的唯一一个既有深厚技术功底又有产品品味的人。我想在这里暂停一下，这真的很特别。

Well, I I love that we're talking about things that Joanne Joanne taught are telling you because Joanne's really special. I I gotta just take a moment to give her a giant shout out. She is the only person that I've worked with that has as much technical depth as she does have product taste. And I just wanna pause there. Like, it's it's just truly special.

我觉得能在OpenAI与她相遇是一种特权。我从她那里学到了很多。就像之前说的，不是六个月后告诉你该做什么。她从第二天就开始告诉我该做什么，我喜欢这样，因为她技术如此精湛，又有这种品味。这两者很少能同时具备。

I I feel entirely privileged to have the chance to cross paths with her at OpenAI. I learned so much from her. Like, again, talk about, like, not telling you what to do after six months. Like, she was telling me what to do from, like, day two, and I loved it because she was she's so technical, and she has this taste. And that those two things are very rare to find together.

因为Joanne在这方面如此特别，我注意到了这一点，心想，哇。我与这么多产品经理共事过，这真的很独特。感觉我们必须找到一种方式来塑造这一点。对吧？果然，我当时就说，嘿。

And with Joanne, because she was so special in that way, and I spotted that, I was like, wow. Like, I've worked with so many PMs, and it's just like, this is very unique. It just it feel it felt like we had to find a way to craft this. Right? And sure enough, she was I was like, hey.

你能写一份关于这是什么的工作描述吗？因为这里有些神奇的东西，但我并不完全理解。我认为没有其他人会这样思考问题。我觉得这可能是OpenAI的一大优势。让我们把它规范化。

Can you just write up a job description of, like, what is this thing? Because there's something magical here, but I don't fully understand it. I don't think any other person really thinks of things this way. I think this might be a big superpower for OpenAI. Like, let's codify it.

对吧？再次回到我的观点，语言真的很重要。我认为有时候写下你直觉感受到的东西，可以创造一个能与他人沟通的产物。在这个例子中，Joanne写下她真正兴奋的事情帮助我更好地理解了这一点。幸运的是，我当时处于一个可以说‘看，让我们创造这个角色’的位置。

Right? And, again, going back to my language being a really important thing, I think the exercise sometimes of writing things down, of, like, things that you intuitively feel give you an artifact that can kind of communicate with somebody else. So, like, in this case, Joanne writing down, like, kind of some of the things that she got really excited about helped me really understand that. And, you know, I was luckily in a in a position where I can basically say, look. Let's let's create this role.

让我们创造这个角色并由你来领导。我认为如果我们能将其规范化，这对产品来说将是巨大的好处。所以我不认为我做了什么特别的事。我只是跟随我的直觉，跟随她的领导。再次明确一下。

Let's let's create this role and have you lead it. And I think this is gonna be great for the product if we're able to codify it. So I don't think I did anything special. I was just following my instincts and just, like, following her lead. Again, I will be clear.

我没有起草文件。根据我的记忆，是她完成的。所以她承担了所有繁重工作和这一切，我不想抢功。我唯一做的就是轻轻推了她一把，比如，我觉得这里有点东西。你能抽空把这个写下来吗？

I did not author a document. I my recollection, she did that. So she did all the hard work and all of this thing, and I don't wanna take any credit for it. The only thing I did was just gave her a little nudge of, like, I think there's something here. Like, can you just take a moment to go and write this down?

当她完成后，情况就变成了，好吧。这必须是个专门角色，你得来领导这个职能。

And when she did, it was just like, okay. This has gotta be a role, and you have to be the leader for this function.

她最终担任的具体角色是什么？我觉得分享这个会很有意思。

What is the actual role she ended up in? I think that'd be really interesting to share.

是的。这个角色是模型设计师，她定义角色的方式非常有趣。虽然其他基础模型公司可能也有类似岗位，但她描述的职责和所需核心能力让我们在招聘后找到了前两位模型设计师——他们与团队完美契合。这很大程度上解释了为何我如此偏爱Chachapiti（可能有误，保留原词）模型的呈现风格和调性，这种技术性与审美并重的角色正是她创立并领导的。

Yeah. The role was model designer, and it was just a really interesting way that she framed it. And and I know this role probably exists in some incarnation in other foundational model companies, but the way that she described it and the things that she found to be the spikes required led us to hire our first two model designers after running a search, and they were just perfect fits for the team. Right? And that, I think, is largely a big secret as to why, at least I'm biased, I love Chachapiti so much in the way the model does I it come comes off, and and the vibe of the model is largely because of this, like, technical plus taste role that she has created and she is leading.

作为领导者，我从中学到的关键启示是：留意人们真正兴奋的事物，然后推动他们用文档清晰描述。回到你关于语言力量的论点——让对方精确表达想法并深入探讨，因为可能蕴藏价值。关于发挥优势这个话题更广泛的思考是：现在很多人争论应该弥补短板还是强化天赋？

I love one of the interesting takeaways from this as as a leader is just pay attention to some to what people are really, really excited about, and then take the step of let them try to describe it very clearly in a doc. Coming back to your point about the the power of language and words is just like, okay. Tell me exactly what you're thinking, and let's jam on it because maybe there's something here. Yeah. Is there anything broader here about just, like, leaning into strengths that you find just like you know, there's lot of people there's all this debate of, like, should I just work out the things I'm terrible at and that'll make me better, or should I find the things I'm amazing at and just get better at those things?

对此有什么见解？

Any thoughts there?

我坚信匹配是双向的。你的热情所在和优势领域，必须找到合适的公司和角色。人们常试图强行符合某种原型，很高兴我们讨论了PM原型——希望这能解放大家去深耕所爱。

I genuinely believe that fit is a two way street. And so what you are passionate about, what your strengths are, you gotta really find the right company, the right role for you. And I think there's a lot of force fitting that people want to do is to fit into a certain archetype. I'm glad we talked about the PM archetypes. Hopefully, that frees people up to kind of really lean into what they love.

对吧？毕竟人生短暂。如果每个人都能找到真正想做的事并全力以赴，那就太棒了。令我乐观的是，当下这个时代涌现如此多新公司，总有些事物能与人产生深刻共鸣。

Right? Because, you know, life's pretty short. It would be it'd be great if everyone would find the thing that they really wanted to do and be able to lean in and do that. And I the optimism to me is also why this is I'm so excited about the time and age that we're in right now because there's so many different companies popping up. So there's, like, there's there's something that really resonates with people.

想想我们现在做的事——播客二十年前根本不存在。但如今有了让人们真实表达自我、创造快乐同时为世界带来巨大价值的工具和平台。

Right? I mean, take a look at just the the you know, we're doing here. It's like podcasting was not a thing twenty years ago. Like, we there's just it was it was not a thing. But now we're able to, like, have these amazing tools and platforms that allow people to to really express themselves and really what really truly brings them joy and and makes them happy and also brings a ton of value to the world.

所以我坚定支持发挥优势。尽管有时很难，但需要审视现状：这是你真正想做的吗？还是有其他事物在吸引你？

Right? So I think that, yeah, I definitely believe in leaning in strengths, and I think that, you know, as hard as it may be, sometimes you gotta look at sort of where you are right now. And is this a thing that you really want to do? Or is there something else that's kind of, like, kind of drawing your attention and and drawing you towards that?

我还有一个管理导向的问题要问你。这个问题来自埃里克·安东尼尔，他显然已经和你共事十七年，跨越多个

There's another management oriented question I'll ask you. This came from Eric Antonelle, who apparently has worked with you for seventeen years across a bunch

不同的领域长达十七年。他是我最重要的导师和朋友之一。真的，他太了不起了。

of different for seventeen years. One of my my biggest mentors and friends. Like, he's he's amazing.

好的。所以他坚持要我问这个问题。他的表述是：你招聘、管理、指导过许许多多产品人，有初级也有资深，跨越各种不同文化背景。他认为我们需要从你的经验中学到什么，关于成为一个真正成功的产品人需要具备什么特质？无论是在打造产品还是职业发展方面？从你观察这么多不同类型的人、文化和资历中，提炼出的核心洞见是什么？

Okay. So he's he's he's he's like, you need to ask this question. So the way he put it is you've hired, managed, mentored many, many, many product people, some junior, some senior across so many different cultures. And he's just like, we need to learn something from your experience doing that, in terms of what you've learned about what it takes to be a really successful product person, whether it's being successful in building product or career wise? What's just like a nugget that you learned from seeing so many different types of people and cultures and seniority?

我认为对产品人来说，特别重要的是要痴迷于工艺细节，因为你本质上是在雕琢产品。关键是要在执着细节的同时，保持辨别哪些细节其实无关紧要的格局与智慧。我先停在这里稍作展开。因为产品人的核心动力就是——我想打造人们喜爱的产品，对吧？

I think for a product person specifically, it's really important to obsess over the details of craft because you're ultimately you're crafting a product. It's important to obsess about the details of craft while simultaneously having the perspective and wisdom of which details don't actually matter. I'm gonna pause there and just kinda try to unpack this a little bit. Because at the core of being a product person, you're like, oh, like, I wanna build something that people love. Right?

这正是这份工作的魅力，也是吸引人们成为产品人的原因——那种创造的渴望。我参与过足够多的团队，包括自己年轻时刚入行那会儿，会过度纠结于某些细枝末节，后来才意识到我们浪费了大量时间在不重要的事情上。这种矛盾性在我看来既有趣又美妙，因为它同时囊括了成功产品人的核心精神：你必须真正在乎，必须对你打造的产品怀有热忱；但同时又要有商业头脑和全局观，懂得如何分配时间和精力。我自己也经历过这种循环。

And that's the job, and that's that's what draws people to be product people is that you have this desire to build. And I think that I've been involved in enough teams where I myself and when I was really young and and coming up as a product person, I would just get obsessed over these little little details, and I've I realized afterwards that we've just wasted a bunch of time on something that didn't actually matter. So I think that dichotomy is somewhat interesting and beautiful to me because it capsulates both the core of what the ethos of a successful product person is, which is you really have to care, and you have to to to give a crap about the product that you're building. But you also have to have the perspective and business know how to understand where do you apply your time and where do you apply the care there. And I myself feel like I've gone through cycles.

明白吗？就像我做的每件事都钻研得极深、投入得痴迷。但退后一步时又会发现：等等，其实我忽略了更重要的东西。

You know? Like, everything that I've done, I've done super deep and really obsessed. And then I take a step back, and I'm like, wait. Actually, I was missing something, and this other thing was was more important. Right?

我举个优步的例子。之前我说过数字产品本身并不重要，关键是价格和预计到达时间。但我在优步最自豪的产品之一恰恰是优步预约服务。

I'll I'll give you an example. I'll use the Uber example here as as as, you know, when I said that, you know, the the digital product didn't really matter. Right? And it's all about the price, the ETA. One of the proudest products that I've built at Uber, which is Uber Reserve.

对吧？回归我之前的观点：有时最好的产品反而是最简单的。我们要解决的问题是：当你有清晨六点的航班时，

Right? It's the simplest of thing. Going back to what I said before, sometimes the the best products are the simplest of things. But the problem that we were trying to solve is that, you know, everyone has this. You have a 6AM flight.

难道真要凌晨四点起来叫车，祈祷有足够司机接单吗？这样你根本睡不好，每两小时醒一次，最后可能还是会误机。于是我们洞察到：用户真正需要的是车辆准时到达的确定性。

And are you really gonna wake up at 4AM and request an Uber and hope that there's enough Ubers and the person is gonna come? Right? Because if you do that, you're not gonna sleep well, and you're gonna, like, you know, wake up every two hours, and you're you're probably gonna miss your flight anyway because you're gonna fall asleep or whatever. And so there was this insight of like, okay. There's a whole mismatch between what people really want, which is the the peace of mind that their car is gonna be there.

知道吗？人们愿意为此付费。所以我们打造了优步预约——简单到极致：只需输入航班时间（甚至直接填写接送时间）。这个产品的每个细节都围绕着用户的核心需求：安心感。

And guess what? I'm willing to pay for that. Right? And so we built Uber Reserve, which was like it was the simplest thing, which is like, oh, just, like, go ahead and say what time your flight is, and we'll work backwards or even just, tell us when you wanna get picked up. And everything about that product, we crafted what really mattered for the user, which was the peace of mind.