Revolut如何培养世界级产品经理："本地CEO"模式、才智重于经验，以及对打造惊艳产品的文化痴迷 | Dmitry Zlokazov（产品负责人）

每个人都在追求有才华、有技能、聪明的人。Revolut更看重原始智力和那种永不满足的建造欲望，而非经验。

Everyone is striving for talented, skillful, smart people. Revolut values way more raw intellect and this unquenched hunger to build things rather than experience.

我听说你们早期产品的一个不同之处在于，你们会投入大量精力真正把它做好。

I hear one of the ways you approach early products differently is you guys invest a lot in actually making it good.

产品没有获得关注。是因为基本理念有问题，还是产品本身太糟糕？通过强制每个人都打造用户喜爱的产品，我们某种程度上消除了这种不确定性。我们可以在功能上精简到只保留最核心的部分，但绝不会在质量、用户体验和美学上妥协。

It's not getting traction. Is it because the underlying idea is wrong or maybe your product just sucks? By forcing everyone to build a product that people will love, We kind of cut out this part of uncertainty. We can cut down the product in terms of functionality to to just most critical features, but we will never compromise on the quality and UX and the aesthetics.

关于如何为新产品的成功奠定基础，你们有什么心得吗？

Is there anything that you've figured out about just how to set up new products for success?

如果某件事完成了99%，那它更接近于0%而非100%。

If something is 99% done, it's closer to 0% rather than 100%.

今天的嘉宾是Dmitry Slocazo。Dmitry是Revolut的全球产品负责人，这是一款金融超级应用，为用户提供储蓄账户、加密货币、投资、联名账户甚至抵押贷款服务。该公司不仅最新估值超过600亿美元，而且在我研究哪些公司培养出最优秀产品经理时，Revolut与Palantir和Intercom并列榜首。在我们的对话中，我们深入探讨了Revolut在培养和招聘优秀产品领导者方面的经验，包括强调所有权意识、让员工解决真正棘手复杂的问题同时创造令用户惊艳喜爱的体验，以及倾向于招聘职业生涯早期但极其聪明有驱动力的人而非经验丰富者等内容。如果你想寻找能加速产品职业发展的工作，或希望提升团队水平，本期内容正适合你。

Today, my guest is Dmitry Slocazo. Dmitry is global head of product at Revolut, which is a finance super app offering customers savings in checking accounts, crypto, investing, joint accounts, even mortgages. Not only was it last valued at over $60,000,000,000, but in the research that I've been doing into which companies hire and incubate the best product managers, Revolut was right at the top alongside Palantir and Intercom. And so in our conversation, we dig into what Revolut has learned about producing and hiring great product leaders, including a focus on ownership, having people solve really painful and complex problems while making the experience wow and lovable by users, also indexing towards hiring really smart and driven people early in their career versus people with a ton of experience in the space, and so much more. If you're looking for a job that will accelerate your product career or want to help your product team level up, this episode is for you.

如果你喜欢这期播客，别忘了在你喜欢的播客应用或YouTube上订阅关注。另外，如果你成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅用户，可以免费获得Linear、Superhuman、Notion、Perplexity和Granola的一年使用权。访问lenny'snewsletter.com点击捆绑包查看。接下来有请Dmitry Zlokazov。本期节目由Stripe赞助播出。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of linear superhuman notion, perplexity, and granola. Check it out at lenny'snewsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you Dmitry Zlokazov. This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe.

我在这档播客中邀请Stripe公司的嘉宾比其他任何公司都多，这有其原因。因为他们汇聚了顶尖人才，打造出卓越产品。你可能知道他们的支付平台为我的新闻通讯以及NVIDIA、Salesforce、Zoom和DoorDash等企业提供服务。但你可能不知道的是，他们还有Stripe Billing等能加速营收增长的产品，该服务为OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian等30多万家企业提供灵活多样的计费管理方案，支持从简单定期收费到用量计费再到销售协商合同等各种模式。

There's a reason that I've had more guests on this podcast from Stripe than any other company. It's because they hire the best people, and they build incredible products. You probably know them for their payments platform, which powers my newsletter, and also companies like NVIDIA and Salesforce and Zoom and DoorDash. What you may not know is that they have several other products that can help accelerate your revenue, such as Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of, OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies. Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers however you want, from simple recurring billing, to usage based billing, to sales negotiated contracts.

Stripe还提供优化结账套件——即插即用的超级优化支付流程，原生支持100多种全球动态支付方式。另有一款名为Link的产品，是专门为提高结账转化率设计的快速结账方案。目前《福布斯》AI 50强榜单中所有已推出产品的企业，均通过Stripe实现商业化。半数财富100强企业使用Stripe，每年经手资金达1.4万亿美元，相当于全球GDP的1%以上。

There's also Stripe's optimized checkout suite, which is a plug and play super optimized payment flow that natively supports over 100 global dynamic payment methods. There's also a product called Link, which is an accelerated checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion. Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that have a product in the market today use Stripe to monetize it. Half of Fortune 100 companies use Stripe. $1,400,000,000,000 flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of global GDP.

使用Stripe处理所有支付需求、账单管理、营收运营，并开创全新商业模式。详情请访问stripe.com。Dmitry，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎参加本期播客。

Use Stripe to handle all of your payment related needs, billing, manage revenue operations, and launch or invent new business models. Learn more at stripe.com. Dmitry, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

嗨，Lenny。很高兴来到这里。

Hi, Lenny. I'm happy to be here.

如你所知，我一直在研究哪些公司最擅长招聘和培养产品经理，并通过多种数据维度交叉验证。我追踪了各公司离职产品经理的晋升情况、成为首席产品官的比例、担任初创企业首任PM以及自主创业的比率。综合所有数据维度后，有三家公司脱颖而出：Revolut、Palantir和Intercom。显然你们有着独特的成功之道。

As you know, I've been doing a bunch of research into which companies hire and create the best product managers, and I've been triangulating this across a bunch of different data points. I've been looking at which company's alumni product managers get promoted most when they leave the company, become chief product officers at the highest rate when they leave the company, become the first PM at a startup, also start their own companies. And when I triangulate it across all the different all these different data points, there's three companies that are kind of sat at the top. You guys, Revolut, Palantir, and Intercom. Clearly, you guys are doing something really special.

我认为美国等地很多人对Revolut了解不多，所以非常期待能向你汲取关于招聘培养产品经理的宝贵经验。首先我想让听众对Revolut有个基本认知——特别是很多美国听众可能不太了解。

I don't think a lot of people, especially in The US, know a ton about Revolut. And so I'm really excited to have you here. I'm really excited to basically extract as much wisdom as I can from you about what you guys have figured out in helping in hiring and training product managers. So I wanna actually start with giving people a slight understanding of what is Revolut. I think a lot of people in The US especially don't know much about it.

那么，该如何用最简单的方式理解你们的业务？

So what's the simplest way to understand what you guys do?

Revolut在50个不同国家挑战传统银行。这一切始于十年前在伦敦。让我简单介绍一下背景。尤其对于身处美国的人来说，理解欧洲银行业格局的多样性很重要。在美国，跨州旅行时情况会有所不同。

Revolut challenges banks in 50 different countries. And it all started ten years ago in London. So maybe let me give you a bit of a context. Especially for someone based in The US, it's important to understand that European banking landscape is very diverse. In The US, if you travel from state to state, like, things are different.

但比如在美国，你始终用美元支付对吧？在英国用英镑，在欧洲大陆用欧元，而到了瑞士则用瑞士法郎。

But for example, you always pay in US dollars. Right? In in The UK, you pay in British pound. If you travel to Mainland Europe, you will pay in euro. But if you go to Switzerland, you'll pay in Swiss francs.

在瑞典用瑞典克朗，以此类推。总共有25种不同货币。每次跨国消费时，银行除了提供糟糕的汇率外还会收取高额手续费。就在那时，Revolut作为多币种卡应运而生，深受用户喜爱。

If you go to Sweden, you'll pay in Swedish krona, and so on. So overall, there are 25 different currencies. And every time you were traveling and paying in a different currency, banks were charging you exorbitant fees on top of terrible foreign exchange rates. And that's when Revolut launched as a multicurrency card. And people loved it.

用户喜欢Revolut帮他们节省50或100欧元，但更看重产品的透明与简洁。正因如此，当我们基于这些原则推出更多产品时，迅速赢得了用户信任和市场份额。P2P转账功能由此诞生，随后是无缝加密货币交易和银行账户提现，接着是更多信贷、储蓄等产品。

They they loved that Revolut was saving them 50 or €100, But even more so, they loved the transparency and simplicity of the product. And that's why when we started rolling rolling out more and more products based on those principles, they were quickly getting trust of people. They were quickly getting traction. So that's how p two p transfers appeared, and then frictionless crypto buying and withdrawal to a bank account appeared. And then more and more products, credit products, savings products, and so on.

太棒了。能否用几个数字帮大家理解公司规模？比如员工数？我记得上轮估值约600亿美金（不知能否透露），但能否快速分享些关键数据？

Awesome. And then just to give people a few like, kind of scale the company, how many employees are there roughly? I think the last valuation, something around 60,000,000,000. I don't know if you can even comment on that. But just what are some numbers real quick for people to understand the scale of the company at this point?

说实话我们并不刻意追求员工增长。Revolut力求保持精简，但市场需求增长迅猛，目前员工数约六七千人。

The head count is not something we're we're trying to increase, to be honest. Actually, Revolut tries to stay as lean as possible, but I think it's yeah. It's just the DOA appetite for growth is so big that I think we're currently at maybe six or 7,000 employees.

哇明白了。那么接下来聊聊组建优秀产品团队的经验吧。首先你们把产品经理称为产品负责人？

Wow. Okay. Cool. So let's get into the what you've learned about building an amazing product team and also hiring an amazing product team. So first of all, you call your product managers product owners.

我们最初聊天时，我就恍然大悟。这就像是一个大型Scrum业务，他们有很多产品负责人——你知道的，在这档播客里大家经常讨论我们其实不是产品经理，但你们的工作方式完全不同。在这个语境下，产品负责人就是真正的所有者。聊聊你们为什么把产品经理称为产品负责人背后的故事吧。

And when we were chatting through initially, I was like, oh, I see. It's just like a big scrum business, and they just have all these product owners who you know, many times on this podcast, people have talked about us not actually a product manager, but that's not at all how you work. So in this context, product owner is an actual owner. Talk about just the kind of the story behind why you call the your product managers product owners.

是的，对我们来说这不是Scrum术语。这只是我们强调所有权重要性的方式。产品负责人对公司及其增长至关重要，他们端到端负责产品、负责这部分业务，并确保客户满意。

Yeah. It's not a scrum term for us. It's just our take on emphasizing how ownership is important, really. So product owners are central to company and its growth. They are end to end responsible for the product, for this part of the business, and for their customers to be happy.

为此他们确实包揽一切：带领团队、制定需要构建的路线图来提升特定业务指标，还参与制定公司高层战略。但最重要的是，他们会坚定不移地执行。

And for that, they do really everything. They run the teams. They define which roadmap we need to build to improve certain business metrics. And they also contribute to high level company strategy. But then most importantly, they execute on it relentlessly.

他们最终要对产品交付和成果达成负责。

And they are ultimate responsible for for the product to be shipped and achieve results.

总有人用'迷你CEO'来形容产品经理，感觉在你们体系里，你们的产品团队本质上就是迷你CEO。他们权力很大——比如工程师、设计师都向他们汇报，是这样吗？

There's always this term of mini CO. PM is a mini CO, and it feels like in your context, that's actually what you try to do with your product team is they're essentially mini COs. They have a lot of power. Like, think engineers, designers report to them. Is that right?

没错。不过我更喜欢说他们是'局部CEO'。

Yeah. Correct. Well, I I prefer to say local CO. CO. Okay.

我们来详细聊聊这个。好啊好啊。

Let's talk about that. Yeah. Yeah.

是的，但这是事实。我们的运作方式是拥有这些完全跨职能的团队，意味着团队配备了所有必要职能——工程师、数据分析师、设计师、运营经理等。我们还以指标为导向运作，所以每个人都有直线经理和职能经理。

Yeah. But that's true. So the way we operate, we have these fully cross functional teams, meaning they are staffed with all necessary functions, engineers, data analysts, designers, operation managers, and so on. And we also operate in metrics. So everyone has a line manager and a functional manager.

因此产品负责人始终是团队中每个人的直线经理，即产品负责人定义他们需要做什么。而职能经理则定义这些事情该如何构建，并确保达到应有的质量标准等。

So product owner is always the line manager for everyone on the team, meaning product owner defines what they need to do. But then functional managers, they define how these things need to be built and essentially with the right level of quality and so on.

我特别喜欢这个模式，因为了解如此不同的运作方式很有趣。我还注意到产品负责人其实有两种类型：一种是UX产品负责人，另一种是技术型产品负责人。

I love this because it's so fun just to learn about such different ways of operating. Another fact that I saw is that there's two types of product owners. There's kind of like a UX product owner, then there's a different like, a technical product owner.

实际上我们有三种。第三种正变得越来越重要。第一类是UX产品负责人，第二类是技术产品负责人，第三类是数据科学产品负责人。

We actually have three. Three. And the third type becomes increasingly more important. So the first type is UX product owners. Then there are technical product owners, and then there are data science product owners.

UX产品负责人主要负责产品的用户界面部分。通常他们对设计有独到眼光，能判断哪些UX方案可行而哪些不可行，同时具备行业专业知识。技术产品负责人则最擅长钻研技术细节，这类人通常是从工程师成长起来，转而负责决策和推动业务的。

So UX product owners are the ones who who work on consumer facing part of the product. Usually, they they have a great taste for things, and they understand what constitutes UX that will work and which things will not work. So they also have this expertise in the industry. Then tech product owners, they are the ones who delve deepest into details. Usually, those are former engineers who grew into making decisions and driving business.

数据科学产品负责人则多是转型管理的原数据科学家，但仍保持很强的实操能力。有趣的是，这三个专业方向存在大量共通点，所以我们常看到人员在不同角色间流动。

And the data science product owners are usually former data scientists who decided to grow into management positions. But they're still very hands on. And you know what? There are a lot there are way more things that are common to each of these three specializations. So what we see sometimes is people just shifting them.

因为我认为决定专业差异的可能只占5%、10%或15%，而85%到90%的能力是共通的。这些共性包括：首先是出色的问题解决能力和线性思维，同时具备解决非线性问题的创新方法；其次是建立用户场景认知，培养用户同理心并将其传递给团队；最后是极其深入的细节把控——在我们这个领域，没有什么是显而易见的。

Because I would say that, you know, what defines the specialization is probably five, ten, 15%, while 85 to 90% is common to each one of them. And those things are so first of all, being a great problem solver and have a great linear thinking, but also, you know, have a creative approach towards nonlinear problems. Then building this context for customer and building empathy towards customer and translating it into the team. Then going down to details very, very deep. Because in our domain, there are no obvious things.

你必须真正深入地挖掘问题的根源，才能明白什么可行、什么不可行。这意味着你也需要具备相当的技术能力。即使你是UXPOR，也经常需要深入参与，比如与工程师一起坐下来阅读代码。此外，我还要强调商业敏锐度的重要性，因为我们往往会大量衡量和量化产品表现。你需要理解，我们构建哪些东西最终能推动业务指标和目标的实现。

And you need to get to the root cause of the problem really, really deep to to to understand, okay, what will work and what will not work. And that means that you also need to be quite technical. Even if you're UXPOR, you still need to often go as deep as sitting, you know, with engineers and reading code. And then I would also emphasize importance of business acumen, because we tend to measure and quantify product performance a lot. And you need to understand, okay, what things will we build that will drive eventually that business metric and that target.

我非常喜欢产品负责人必须深入钻研这个观点。很多听众可能认为自己已经足够深入了，但我想知道是否有具体例子能说明你这里的真实含义。比如说，

So I love this idea of the product owners having to go really deep. I think a lot of people hearing this, they think they can go deep, go deep, really understand the the details of what they're working on. I'm curious if there's an example that's illustrative of just what you actually mean here. For example,

为了在每个运营国家提供最佳产品，我们必须获得必要的许可证。在欧洲，这意味着我们需要开设欧洲银行的当地分支机构，比如法国分行、德国分行或意大利分行。要开设分行，必须完全遵守所有必要法规，并向各监管机构提交客户数据报告。

to provide the best possible product in every country of presence, we need to have necessary licenses. In Europe, it means that we need to launch local branches of our European bank. For example, a branch for France, a branch for Germany, or a branch for Italy. To launch a branch, you need to fully comply with all necessary regulation. You need to you need to report necessary data on customers to various regulators and authorities.

还需要在当地支付系统注册。每项工作都包含大量嵌套的子项目。我们团队非常精简，只有几个人，却要统筹规划并在约50个国家的规模上实施。我们的做法是深入剖析每个项目的案例。

You need to register with local payment systems. And each of these things, they have a lot of projects nested within. We have a very lean team, just a few people, who need to scope everything and do it at the scale of, like, of 50 countries. Right? So the way we do it is we go very deep on example of each of these projects.

例如，我们在爱尔兰开设了分行，又在荷兰开设了分行。然后我们逆向工程出最优流程，再回到顶层视角思考：规模化实施的最佳框架是什么？

For example, we launched a branch in Ireland. We launched a branch in Netherlands. Then we reverse engineered what was the the best process to do it. And then we went back up on top level, and we said, okay. But what's the what's the ideal framework of doing it at scale?

接着我们将其规范化为流程——一个包含步骤、质量关卡和主题专家的算法式流程，比如需要招聘哪些人员、在新国家启动前多久开始准备等。这不仅是深入细节，还需要保持灵活性，在深度聚焦与全局视角之间切换，理解细节虽复杂，但宏观上如何简化并建立可扩展的稳健流程。

And then we formalized it into a process, really like an algorithmic process with steps and quality gates and SMEs and, like, which what people do we need to hire and how how soon do we need to start doing that before we want to launch a new country. And then so it's not only going deep, but also being flexible, you know? And, like, doing this switch between zooming in very deep and then raising on the on the level of of helicopter view, and then understanding, okay. So this seems very, very complex in details. But then when you zoom out, like, how can we simplify it and build a robust process around it, which is scalable?

这正是我们经常需要做的事情。

And that's something that we have to do a lot.

在交流过程中，我一直在梳理哪些因素最能促成你们培养的校友产品负责人、产品经理如此成功。目前看来有几个关键点：首先是他们对自己打造的产品拥有高度自主权，这培养了创业能力和在其他公司担任领导者的技能。这些产品负责人就像他们负责产品的总经理。其次是深度与复杂性——必须真正擅长深入理解问题本质。我猜这些人后来要么继续从事类似工作，要么就特别擅长处理多层次复杂问题，毕竟积累了这么多经验。

As you're talking and we go through this chat, I'm keeping kind of track of what I think is most contributing to your alumni product owners, product managers becoming so successful. So a couple things so far that I think are probably contributing to this is one is just having a lot of ownership over what they're building, which leads to building skills to start companies and become leaders at other companies. So these product owners that you have are just, like, own a lot and are essentially GMs of the of whatever product they're working on. And then there's this depth and complexity where you have to really get good at understanding a problem really deeply. I imagine many of these people go on to work on something like that later somewhere else because they've spent all this time, or they just get really good at dealing with complex, many layered problems.

嗯。除了这些，你觉得还有哪些重要因素？

So Yep. Is there anything else just kinda along those lines as I say that that you think is important?

我可能要补充一点：对打造'惊艳'产品的极致追求。惊艳。就是W-o-w那种惊艳。很酷吧。

I would probably add an obsession with building Wow product. Wow. W o w. W o w. Cool.

而且我认为在金融科技领域，这通常是最被忽视的部分。但我们在Revolut对此投入了极大关注。不只是交易或转账时要确保快速低价——让你不用支付高额手续费。我们还极其注重应用的外观质感、操作流畅度和流程无摩擦程度。我们不仅致力于减少点击步骤、优化流程漏斗，更想让用户感受到我们真心在乎他们。

And, you know, I think in fintech overall, this is probably the most neglected part usually. But it's also a part that we at Revolut we pay enormous attention to. So it's not only you know, when you when you do a trade in the app or when you send money, it's very important for it to be very fast and cheap process for you so that you don't pay a lot of fees. But we also pay a lot of attention to look and feel of the app, and how smooth it is, and how frictionless the process. Not only we invest into reducing clicks and optimizing funnels, but we also want people to feel that we really cared about them.

我们还希望用户能感受到我们对客户的爱——我们额外付出了努力让产品看起来棒、用起来爽。客户经常反馈说他们真心喜爱这款应用，因为它能解决问题。这至少是公司成功的要素之一。我认为Revolut员工已养成习惯，会关注那些让产品充满魅力的小细节。

We also want people to feel that we love our customers and we applied extra effort to for the product to look great and feel great. And I hear this a lot from our customers. Like, the the the app is something they really love, and it helps them solve their problems. It's at least one of the ingredients of of the company's success. And I think people that work at Revolut, they built habit of, you know, paying attention to these small nuances, small details that make the product lovable.

第二点是处理复杂情境的能力。要知道有很多细节需要钻研，同时还要从不同维度切入。能在脑海中保持宏大视野、考虑二阶效应、多角度审视问题——这种能力我认为也是Revolut人员训练出的重要技能。

And then second is handling this context because, you know, like, it's a lot of details where you need to dive, but there are also a lot of dimensions where you need to dive into different details. Right? And I think this ability to to keep this, like, large context in your mind and consider second order effects and, like, view subjects from multiple angles, I think that this is also a very important skill that people usually train at Revolut.

好的，很清晰。现在我们总结出了三条关于你们培养优秀产品经理/负责人的要点。关于'惊艳'这个我很喜欢的部分，你们如何落实？我猜关键是要招揽真正擅长且重视打造迷人产品的人才。

Okay. Cool. So we have three three bullet points on the on the ingredients of great product managers slash owners that you guys incubate. On this Wow piece, which I love, how do you operationalize this sort of thing? I imagine a big part of it is hiring people that are really good at this and value building lovable products.

你们是否有某种流程来确保推出的产品令人惊艳且讨人喜欢？

Is there any way you kind of have a process around making sure the things you ship are wow and lovable?

关于Revolut的运作方式，你需要理解两点：一是我们采用小型精干团队模式，这些团队负责产品构建。正如我提到的，他们要对产品负全责。通常，团队会从零开始打造产品，并持续完善发展它。另一点是公司架构非常扁平化。我们的创始人Nick和Vlad至今仍亲力亲为，会深入每个产品和业务环节的细节。

Two things that you need to understand about how Revolut operates is that we operate in small lean teams that are tasked to build products. And as I mentioned, like, and having end to end responsibility for products. And usually, they're the ones who build it from zero, and then they they they grow in and develop in this product. And then another thing is that company is very flat, and hierarchy is very flat. We still have our founders, Nick and Vlad, very hands on, going down to details for every product and every part of the business.

每周他们都会与各团队进行产品评审，让每位产品负责人直接向CEO和CTO展示团队上周取得的进展，同时获得创始人的指导——这极其宝贵。本质上，公司创始人仍会审核100%已发布的产品界面。你在应用中看到的所有内容都经过这种严格审查，有无数双眼睛在审视每个细节，考虑各种边缘情况和细微差别，以确保每位用户在产品流程中都能获得满意体验。

And every week, they have product reviews with every team, giving an opportunity to every product owner present directly to CEO and CTO and show what team what what increment has team achieved in the last week, but also get steering from founders, which is super valuable. So essentially, founders of the company, they still review 100% of screens that have been shipped. And everything that you will see in the app, this this past this review, and there are a lot of eyeballs that were, you know, scrutinizing this and thinking of all possible edge cases and nuances that we need to consider to make sure that every single customer will be happy in this product, in this flow.

这似乎是卓越产品的共同特点——创始人深度参与体验并审核所有内容。顺便问下，Revolut有多少位产品负责人？让大家有个概念。

That seems to be a consistent theme in products that are incredible, as the founders are deeply involved in in the experience and review everything. How many how many product owners are there at Revolut? Just to give people a sense, by the way.

噢，恐怕已经超过150人了，可能有170人。

Oh, I'm afraid to say it's already more than 150 people, maybe 170.

明白了，这符合我的预期。你刚才提到有三种类型：工程型、传统PM型和数据产品负责人型。当你们招聘UX型产品负责人时，他们之前的职位通常是否来自其他公司的产品经理？

Cool. That's that's what I would expect. And then you said that there's kind of these three types. There's kind of like the eng type, the PM traditional type, and there's the data product owner. When you hire the UX type of product owner, do they is their previous role usually a product manager at another company?

是的。

Yes.

但我要说的是，并不一定非得是非常有经验的产品经理。实际上，那种渴望创造事物的饥渴感，以及天生的智慧，可能更为重要。我们总是试图寻找具备这些内在特质的人，而不是雇佣那些经验丰富但对创造事物并不特别热衷的人。

But I would say that not necessarily it's a very experienced product manager. Well, maybe even it's way more important to have this hunger for building things, you know, and having a raw intellect. And we always try to find people with these intrinsic traits rather than hiring people who are very experienced, but maybe are not super excited about building things.

你们的产品负责人中有多大比例是从其他职能部门内部调岗过来的？

What percentage of your product owners come from internal transfers from other functions?

顺便说一句，最终非常成功的产品负责人中有相当一部分是这样的。这就像一种积极的自我选择。这意味着某人已经在其他岗位上取得了成功，所以这保证了文化契合度，也保证了领域知识的掌握。

It's a quite substantial part of product owners who eventually become very successful, by the way. So it's like a positive self select. So it means that someone already succeeded in another role. So it's a guaranteed culture match. It's guaranteed domain knowledge.

然后他们自然而然地成长。通常可能是运营经理或工程师，他们成长为现在管理团队的人。这就是为什么这是一条非常成功的路径。

And then they simply grow. Usually, it could be operations managers or engineers. They grow into someone who now manages the team. And that's why it's a very successful path.

根据我的研究，在培养和雇佣最佳产品经理的三大公司名单上，另一家是Palantir。我刚好认识一位在Palantir工作了很久的人，我们讨论了完全相同的问题。有趣的是，到目前为止，我们总结了Revolut产品负责人的三大工作要点：拥有极大的自主权，工作极具深度和复杂性，并且非常注重打造令人喜爱的产品。

So so the other company on the list of top three companies that produce and hire the best PMs according to the research I've done, Palantir. I just had someone that was at Palantir for a long time, and we talked about exactly all the same questions. And interestingly so so far, we have kind of have these three bullet points in terms of what p product owners within Revolut get to do. There's a lot of ownership. There's a lot of depth and complexity, and there's a lot of focus on wow, lovable products.

有趣的是，Palantir也有大量的自主权，以及深度和复杂性。我想问你的另一个要素是，他们还有一个'前线部署工程师'的概念，就是把工程师派驻到他们为之开发产品的公司办公室，与客户一起现场开发。这样能培养很多技能，比如理解客户问题、与客户沟通、建立同理心等。你们有没有类似的做法或重点，比如让产品负责人与客户合作、理解问题等方面，可能对听众有帮助的经验？

So interestingly, at Palantir, tons of ownership, also tons of depth and complexity. The other ingredient that I wanna ask you about is they also they have this concept of a forward deployed engineer where they put an engineer in the office of the company they're building the product from. They sit there building it for them with them. And so there's a lot of skills built in terms of understanding customer problems, talking to customers, getting, you know, empathy building, things like that. Is there anything you guys do or focus on around just, like, talking to customers, the way you approach having your product owners work with customers, understand problems, things like that that might be helpful for people to hear?

对我们来说，接触客户相对容易，因为客户基数非常大，超过5000万人。而且通常我们自己就是产品的重度用户。我们用Revolut接收工资，用Revolut消费，我们的朋友也是如此。

For us, it's a bit easy to reach out to customers simply because the customer base is so big. It's more than 50,000,000 people. And, usually, we ourselves are power users of the product. We receive our salary into Revolut, and then we we spend with Revolut. Our friends, the same.

所以持续与用户沟通是理所当然的事。即使你不主动联系，他们也会主动反馈。如果产品出现问题，我保证我们很快就能知道。我们还为产品负责人和设计师开发了工具，让他们能通过不同平台轻松接触用户小组，只需点击几下就能开始访谈、问卷调查或测试不同设计方案。对我来说，建立这种与客户的直接联系非常重要。

So it's it's like a no brainer to to talk to people continuously. And even if you're not proactive into in in in, they will reach out. If you have a problem in the product, like, I guarantee that we know about it very, very soon. We've also built tools for product owners and designers to have an easy access to a panel of users via different tools so that they can just start an interviewing process or survey or a test of different designs in a few clicks. For me, it was very important to build this direct connection to customers.

因为当你把客户调研和收集反馈这样重要的工作委托给他人时，你得到的是经过提炼和过滤的版本。你会错过那些细微差别——人们如何描述事物，他们感受到的情绪，以及他们卡在哪个环节。这些重要信息很容易在此过程中丢失。因此我坚信，建立直达客户的沟通渠道至关重要。

Because when you delegate such an important thing as as customer research and collecting their feedback to someone, you will get refined, the filtered version. You won't get this, you know, like these nuances of how people describe things, which emotions they feel like, and so on, and where they think stuck. It's very easy to lose all those important bites of information in this process. So I'm a strong believer that it's very important to have direct communication channel to to to customers.

听你描述时很有趣，我觉得你们和Palantir在获取反馈的便利性上处于光谱的两端。他们为政府和空客这样的客户开发产品，那些员工永远不会使用或需要这类产品。而你们用Revolut收款，用Revolut支付，时刻都在使用自己的产品。所以我理解为什么你们不需要前向部署工程师这样的角色。好的。

And as you describe this, it's funny how you're I think you guys are at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum from Palantir in terms of how easy it is for you to get feedback. They build stuff for, like, the government and for, like, Airbus where employees would never use a product like that or need a product like that. You guys are getting paid in Revolut, using Revolut to pay for things and constantly in the product. And so I could see why there's less of a need for something like a forward deploy engineer. Okay.

太棒了。那我们聊聊招聘吧。你们的招聘方式、人才搜寻标准有什么独特之处？你认为哪些特质让你们培养出如此成功的校友？

Amazing. Let's talk about hiring then. Is there is there anything unique about how you approach hiring, sourcing, looking for people, what you look for in people that you think might be contributing to your alumni being so successful down the road?

我认为大家都在寻找有才华、有技能、聪明且经验丰富的人才。但Revolut更看重原始智力和那种永不停歇的创造欲望，而非经验。让我举个例子：我们都见过这种情况——你雇佣了一位成就斐然的资深专业人士。

I think everyone is striving for talented, skillful, smart people, and experienced people. Revolut values way more raw intellect and this unquenched hunger to build things rather than experience. So let let let me maybe, you know, like, bring an example. Imagine we we all saw this. Like, you hire a great, experienced professional with amazing regalia of achieving a lot of things.

但在产品部门，适应曲线通常比其他部门更长。因为产品负责人本质上是该领域的专家，他们深谙产品构建和使用的复杂细节。我们发现这些专业人士仍需要大量时间上手，有时还需要适应新文化，更糟的是躺在功劳簿上。而公司对他们的期望本就过高，加上通常他们的薪酬很高，这更放大了期望值。

But then what I see in product, the adoption curve is usually longer than in other functions. Because product owners, by definition, are the ones who are the experts in that domain, and they know those intricacies of how product is built and how it's used. So what we see from these professionals is they still take a lot of time to ramp up. And sometimes they also take time to adapt to new culture, or worse, they just rest on their laurels. But you already have, like, super inflated expectations, and usually their compensation is, by the way, quite high, and which adds up to these expectations.

我自己在Revolut进行了大概四五百场产品负责人面试后也发现：遗憾的是，来自成熟企业的资深专业人士往往缺乏改变现状的强烈冲动——而这需要付出辛劳、泪水和汗水。因此即便候选人经验不足，但只要热爱创造，比如曾与工程师合作过，甚至自己创过业——我见过的最佳履历之一就是技术联合创始人。

So and I myself, after conducting maybe four or 500 interviews with product owners at Revolut, I I also see this. Unfortunately, professionals with a lot of years of experience from established companies, they don't have this this strong urge to change status quo, which, by the way, will require, toil, tears, and sweat. And that's why what even if a candidate doesn't have a lot of years of experience, but they love building things, They've done it. They worked with engineers. Maybe, by the way, maybe in their own startup, or one of the best profiles that I've seen is a tech cofounder.

所以我认为提升职业生涯的最佳方式可能就是去创业，加入初创公司，自己或与一个小团队一起打造产品，涉足各个领域。因为在初创公司，你必须接触所有不同领域。这类人在Revolut往往能大放异彩，即便他们经验尚浅，却能精准锁定问题——他们能感知客户痛点，并迅速采取行动解决问题。

So I think that's that's probably the best way to boost career is to, you know, to to go and to found something, work in a startup, build things yourself or with a very small team, work in all different areas. Because in a startup, you have to work in all different areas. And then these kind of people, they really thrive at Revolut. And even if they don't have a lot of years of experience, they actually attack a specific problem. They they have a sense of what can cause customer pain, and they are very fast moving to solve it quickly.

正因如此，他们赢得了周围所有人的赞赏。团队开始尊重这些人，因为他们解决了一个具体问题，接着又攻克下一个，就这样不断突破——这就是他们在公司成长的方式。

And then that's how they get appreciation from everyone around. Team starts respecting these people because they solved some specific problem, and then they take another problem. They solve it, and then they take another. And that's how they grow in the company.

我理解的是：你们招聘的多是初级但极具天赋、充满激情、用你的话说就是'渴望成长'的人。这解释了为什么那么多人能在Revolut获得快速晋升。他们在职业早期就学会所有权意识、深度思考、复杂环境协作和打造卓越产品等技能——这一切都说得通。你们是否摸索出在哪里能找到这类人才？毕竟这可是梦寐以求的团队。

Essentially, what I'm hearing is you're you hire kind of more junior or super high raw intellect driven, passionate, how do you describe, hungry people. And this explains why so many people have so get promoted so much more that leave Revolut because they start they're earlier in their career, and you help them learn all these skills, ownership, depth, understanding, working complex environments, building amazing products. So this all makes a lot of sense. Is there anything you figured out about where to find these people? Because this is the dream.

招聘那些尚未被发掘却聪明绝顶、干劲十足的人，然后把他们培养成顶尖人才。你们有没有发现什么特别的渠道或方法来寻找这类人？

Hire amazingly smart people that are super driven that nobody knows about yet and then make them awesome. Where what have you found anything about, like, where to source and find these folks?

我们的工作方式是每周与招聘团队开例会。他们其实也是按冲刺周期运作的团队。每个冲刺阶段，我们会明确重点关注的领域和公司。一个绝佳的人才来源就是研究我们自己喜爱的产品和应用——能做出优秀产品的人往往就是高绩效者。

So the the way we work, we have weekly catch ups with the recruitment team. So essentially, they they are also a team that runs in sprints. So we every every sprint, we define what do we want to focus on, which areas, which companies. One of the great sources is actually looking into products and apps that we love ourselves. So if someone built a great product, then it's likely a high performer.

通常我们会向招聘团队提供特定领域内的优秀产品清单（这些领域对我们更重要），他们就会针对性搜寻相关公司。目标范围很广，甚至包括顶尖院校——每个冲刺周期的重点都不尽相同。

So usually, like, we we provide some great products in specific areas that are more important for us to to the sourcing team, and they just try to source targeting those companies. It could be also different areas. It could be even schools, like good schools, and so it varies from sprint to sprint.

有道理。Gokul有个很棒的建议，我记得是在播客里提到的（如果不是就是他的推文）：不仅要看成功企业，更要关注这些公司里对其成功起关键作用的职能部门。

That makes sense. There's Gokul had this really good piece of advice. I think it was on the podcast. If not, he tweeted about it. Where, know, you look at, like there's, like, successful companies, but then there's also, like, what function in that company is the is the key to their success.

所以你想让公司A负责销售，公司B负责客户支持，公司C负责设计。听起来你们团队大致是这样分工的。嗯，很有意思。好的。

And so you wanna go, like, a company a for sales, company b for customer support, cuss cuss company c for design. And so it sounds like that's kind of the way you guys think about a little bit. Yeah. Very cool. Okay.

我很喜欢我们正在揭开这个谜团的过程。本期节目由Stripe赞助播出。福布斯50强AI公司中所有已推出产品的企业都使用Stripe实现盈利。Stripe每年处理的交易额达1.4万亿美元，相当于全球GDP的1%以上。而且Stripe不仅仅是个支付平台。

We're I love how we're uncovering, and we're uncovering this mystery. This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe. Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that has a product in the market today uses Stripe to monetize it. $1,400,000,000,000 flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of the entire global GDP. And Stripe isn't just a payments platform.

他们还拥有名为Stripe Billing的产品，为OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian等30多万家企业提供计费服务。无论采用何种定价模式——从定期订阅、按量计费到销售定制合同——Stripe Billing都能帮您管理客户账单。实现收入自动化管理，全球收款无忧。从账单处理、营收运营到结账流程，甚至创新商业模式，Stripe能满足所有支付需求。登录stripe.com了解如何提升企业收入。

They also have a product called Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of: OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies. Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers no matter your pricing model, from simple recurring billing, to usage based billing, to sales negotiated contracts. Collect and retain more revenue, automate revenue management workflows, and accept payments globally. Use Stripe to handle all of your payment related needs, including billing, revenue operations, checkout flows, or simply launching or inventing new business models. Learn all the ways that Stripe can grow revenue for your business at stripe.com.

让我换个方向，看看能否有更多发现。在团队管理方面，你们对产品团队的运营方式是否存在某些与众不同的理念？这些可能是其他公司没有采用，但你们认为对成功至关重要的方法？

Let me go in a different direction and see if there's more to learn here. When it comes to running your teams, is there something that is kind of fairly contrarian in how you approach running the product team that is maybe now not how other companies operate that you think is key to your success?

加入Revolut后我的工作方式发生了改变。这可能因为Revolut是创始人领导的企业，也可能因为SofLed的影响。加之我的职责范围很广——既要领导全公司的产品职能，又要负责Revolut的核心业务零售板块。很容易陷入同时跟进50-70个项目的困境，整周都在了解进度却无法创造实质价值。

I've changed in how I operate after I joined Revolut. Probably because Revolut is a founder led company, and probably it's because SofLed. And also because my role is quite spread across many things. So my role at Revolut is leading product function across company, but also leading retail, which is a core part of Revolut's business. And it's very easy to be spread thinly across all those domains and catching up with 50 or 70 projects that are are being executed simultaneously, which would mean that, you know, you will just spend your entire week just just catching up on statuses, not really adding value to anyone.

但完全不管也很可怕——万一出现问题就无法及时纠正。所以很多高管会选择保持宏观视角。而Revolut的做法截然不同：我们会精选7-10个对客户影响最大的项目，深入到与工程师一起审查代码的程度，真正理解底层架构和核心问题。

But but it's also, you know, it's also scary to not do it. Because what if there are some things going wrong, right, and you and you won't be able to to stop it or steer in a in a better direction? So I think that's why also a lot of managers, especially in senior positions, they they kind of stay high level, and they don't go very deep into details. But so how we do differently at Revolut is to go very deep into details, we take maybe seven or 10 projects, which are most impactful for customers right now, and we go super deep into them. Like, really, really deep sitting with engineers, like, check like, reading code level and understanding, okay, how how it's built exactly and what's what's the underlying issue.

你可能会问：那其他五六十个项目怎么办？看似违反直觉，但这套方法效果极佳。因为团队间会通过正式/非正式渠道沟通，他们清楚哪些领域正在被重点审查。

And you could think that okay. But what what about others, like, let's say, 50 or 60 items, right, that are being executed? But the thing is that it actually it's counterintuitive, but it works really well because, first of all, teams, they talk to each other. There are formal and informal ways of communicating through meetups or just, you know, meeting in the office. And they know which areas are being scrutinized right now and, like, which team is being scrutinized.

它还提供了关于公司当前优先事项的信息。但此外，这也向其他团队发出信号：如果他们未能主动按照预期水平执行任务，关注所有细节并在这些细节上做到一丝不苟，尤其是在质量方面，那么他们将成为下一阶段、下一周期被深入审查的对象。因此，这同时也建立了强大的纪律性。由于Revolut聚集了大量渴望成为最佳自我并追求成长的雄心勃勃之人，对他们而言，证明自己能够交付卓越成果并打造下一个伟大公司至关重要。

And it also gives information on what are the current priorities in the company. But in addition, it's signaled to other teams that if they are not proactively executing things on the expected level, paying attention to all the details and being meticulous in all those details, especially in quality, they will be the ones that will be reviewed to a such deep level, like next next phase, next cycle. So as a result, it also builds a great discipline. And since Revolut is such a high concentration of very ambitious people who thrive for being best versions of themselves and grow. And it's very important for them to prove that, you know, they can they can deliver great things and build next, like, great company.

因此，他们会竭尽全力自主运作。当你开始深入细节时，你会发现一切正常。你看到他们的工作模式，就能判断这个团队是否走在正轨上。如果偏离轨道，那很可能就是你下一个需要重点关注的领域。

As a result, they do everything to operate autonomously. And when you start diving deep into details, like, you see that everything is fine. You see the modus operandi, and you can understand, okay, if this team is on good track or not on good track. And if it's not on good track, it means that it probably will be one of your next areas of focus.

好的。我听到你说目前有50到60个项目正在推进——

Okay. So what I'm hearing is there's you said there's 50 to 60 things kind of projects being built at

实际上接近100个。

closer to a 100, actually.

明白了。也就是说任何时候都有大约100件事在同时进行，比如功能开发和产品发布。而你和创始人会从中选择7到10个来重点关注吗？还是说只有你一个人做这个选择？

Okay. Okay. So there's, like, a 100 things happening at any point, like features being built, products being launched. And you and this is you and the founders choose seven to 10 to focus on, or is it just you?

不，只有我一个人负责。

No. It's just it's just me. Right.

只有你。顺便问一下，你是否属于某个领导团队，比如与设计主管共事？还是说基本上只有你处于顶层？

Just you. Okay. And and then and by the way, do you have, like, a leadership team that you're a part of with, like, a design lead, or is it just you basically at the top?

从结构上看，我的职责是产品功能。我们还有一位设计功能负责人，也属于我的团队。但其他所有职能都是独立的，比如工程和数据职能，他们都直接向CEO汇报。

So the way it's structured, my responsibility is product function. We also have a head of design function. It's also part of my team. But then all the other functions, they are separate, like engineering and data function. And all of them report directly into a CEO.

明白了。所以从100件事中你选出7到10件重点深入。这些是对业务最关键的事项，如果进展不顺将造成最大负面影响。然后你说你基本上就坐在工程师旁边。

Got it. Okay. So you so out of a 100 things you choose, here's, like, the seven to 10 things I'm gonna go deep on. These are the things that matter most to the business that if they don't go well, it'll have the the most down downside. And then you just you're you basically said you sit next to the engineers.

你会深入参与每个细节。

You you get really involved in every detail.

是的，没错。

Yeah. Correct.

太棒了。这确实有违直觉。我们播客采访过Brian Chesky，他的解决方式是直接削减Airbnb的业务量，因为他想参与所有事情。所以听到这种不同方式很有意思——我们仍可以做很多事，但我会选择性地...

Awesome. Okay. That is definitely counterintuitive. We had Brian Chesky in the podcast, and the way he approached this problem is he just cut down how many things happen at Airbnb And because he wants to be involved in everything. And so I think it's cool to hear a different approach where, okay, we can still do a lot of stuff, but I'm gonna choose.

我会对那些最重要的事情深入钻研。

I'm gonna go deep on the things that matter most.

不，我认为我们永远不会削减业务。因为公司对增长的渴望和创业精神如此强烈，我们绝不会放弃任何重大机遇。而且这种方式更具扩展性——虽然领导层和创始人会确保问责制并深入细节，但这不意味着他们事无巨细地管理每个人，这一点非常重要。

No. I think we will never cut down since it's just the appetite for growth and also entrepreneurial approach in the company is so high that we will never allow ourselves to give up on some great opportunities. But also this this approach is way more scalable. So while leadership and obviously founders themselves keep everyone accountable, go deep into details, it doesn't mean that they micromanage everyone. That that's actually that's actually a very important thing.

因此，产品负责人的理想状态是完全自主。重申一次，这并不意味着永远不会受到质疑。但当被质疑时，你能展示出所有决策背后的逻辑和路线图依据。即使数据尚未达标，你仍能获得信任额度，继续按自己的方式推进。最终，你会在每周产品评审会上展示工作成果。

So the ideal position for any product owner is to be fully autonomous. And, again, it doesn't mean that you will never be challenged. But if when you're challenged, you can show all the logic behind decisions you've made, behind the roadmap. And even if metrics are not yet there, like, you you you will still, like, let's say, have this credit of trust to keep building things the way you want to build them. Eventually, yeah, you will you will be presenting the outputs of your activity on these weekly product reviews.

但这同样不是微观管理。更像是最后一道控制线，确保我们构建的内容合理、有价值，且所有细节都经过深思熟虑。

But, again, it's it's not a micromanagement either. It's more like a, let's say, a last line of control to make sure that what we're building is all all makes sense and adds value and is thoroughly thought in all details.

你刚才提到每个上线的界面最终都会经过创始人审核。所以不存在未经创始人过目就发布的情况。

And then you said still every screen that is shipped, the founders review at some point. So it's not like someone shipping stuff without the founders seeing it in some form.

没错。他们确实掌握全局概览。嗯。

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They have, like, full overview over everything. Mhmm.

但正是这种低度微观管理让我们能同时推进众多项目。如果创始人必须事必躬亲，他们就不得不砍掉部分计划。而通过赋予自主权，反而加速了公司成长。因此Revolut在行业内的产品发布数量和速度都是惊人的异类。

But also, the it it actually it allows us to build so many things because there is actually little micromanagement. Like, if there was if founders had to be, like, involved into everything, they had to they they they had to to cut the things down. Right? But by giving people autonomy, they actually boost company growth. And and as a result, I think Revolut is is a strong outlier in the industry in terms of how many products being shipped and how fast they shipped.

另一个关键点是我之前提到的：我们重金投入平台建设，确保每个方案从一开始就具备可扩展性，避免定制化方案。比如我们的信贷团队——仅约300人，却能做到每月在不同国家上线贷款或信用卡新产品。而传统银行的信贷部门可能有2-3千人只为单个国家开发信贷产品。

Another thing here is what I've mentioned previously is us investing heavily into platform and so that every solution is scalable from the get go so that we don't have any custom solutions. And I don't for example, take our credit team. They ship new products like loans or credit cards in the country literally every month. And it's just maybe 300 people. And I think that, you know, a credit division in a in a incumbent bank is maybe, like, two or 3,000 people building just credit products for a single country.

而我们的团队要为50个国家构建产品。这都得益于平台化策略：由精干小团队负责平台建设，他们配备完整职能并拥有自主决策权，扁平化管理确保人人担责，创始人直接监督并在必要时介入。

And our team is building it for 50 countries. So and, yeah, it's enabled through this approach with platforms, which we build on top of small lean teams, which are fully equipped with necessary functions and also have autonomy in defining what what they're building, and the flat hierarchy with everyone being accountable and founders having direct view over everyone and inter intervening if necessary.

我打算给大家列一下你们提供的服务清单。一开始我没这么做是因为会耗时太久，但你们谈到了正在开发的所有产品和各项业务进展。我这里有一份可能不完整的清单，但能让大家有个概念。你们提供信用卡、借记卡、储蓄账户、多币种账户、国内国际转账、联名账户、未成年人账户（针对18岁以下人群）、股票交易、加密货币购买、贷款服务。还有什么重要项目我漏掉了吗？

I'm gonna give people a list of the things you guys do. We I didn't do this at the beginning because it would take too long, but you talk about all the products you're building and all the things that's going on. So I have, like, a list here that it may it's probably incomplete, but just to give people a sense. So you guys have credit cards, debit cards, savings accounts, multicurrency accounts, domestic international transfers, joint accounts, minors, accounts for, like, less than people less than 18 years old, stock trading, cryptocurrency purchasing, loans. Is there anything big I missed?

我的意思是，其中有些业务本身就非常庞大。比如股票交易，对吧？不只是股票，还包括ETF、债券，而且我们正在不同国家开发税务优化账户。

I mean, it's some of those things are huge by itself. Let's say stock trading. Right? It's it's not just stocks. It's also ETFs, bonds, and we're we're working on tax efficient accounts in different countries.

加密货币方面，我们还支持质押功能。我们有法币出入金通道产品、收单产品。信贷方面有贷款服务，还有先买后付产品。

And crypto, it's we also allow stake in crypto, for example. We have on ramp, off ramp products. We have acquiring products. On credit, we have loans. We have buy now, pay later product.

甚至还推出了按揭贷款。我们在安道尔率先推出了首款按揭产品

Even launched mortgages. We launched first mortgages in And

而且所有这些服务覆盖50种不同货币和国家。

this is a and then all of these across 50 different currencies and countries.

没错。50个不同司法管辖区，每个都有各自的法规和要求。

Yeah. 50 different jurisdictions with each with its own regulation, with its own requirements.

天啊。这完美印证了保罗·格雷姆提出的'繁琐盲区'概念——人们总想回避难题，但重大机遇恰恰在于解决那些棘手痛苦的问题。你们基本上就是这么做的。对，这正是...

Oh, boy. This is a it's a good example of Paul Graham has this concept of schlep blindness or schlepping, where people wanna avoid hard problems, but that's where the big opportunities are, solving really gnarly, painful problems. And that's basically what you guys did. Yeah. That that's one of the things

这或许是最让我兴奋的，对Revathut而言。市场规模如此庞大，仍有许多效率低下的参与者。结果就是客户面临大量未解决的问题。我们正以惊人的速度增长，我记得刚加入时我们大约只有2000万客户，现在已达到5000万。

that excites me maybe the most, to Revathut. The market is so big, and there are still a lot of very inefficient players. And as a result, customers have a lot of problems that are unsolved. While we grow insanely, and I think we'll soon be so when when I joined, we had maybe just slightly north to 20,000,000 customers. Now we are 50,000,000 customers.

很快我们就会拥有1亿客户。通过用我们的产品生态体系全方位服务每位客户，覆盖范围大幅扩展。越来越多人开始将Revolut作为主要银行账户，工资存入Revolut，储蓄也放在Revolut，因为他们越来越喜爱这个产品。因此我们的客户基数再增长两三倍、甚至四倍都轻而易举。

Soon, we'll be at 100,000,000 customers. The degree of you know, surrounding each customer with the ecosystem of our products extends a lot. So they become more and more people start using Revolut as their main bank account. They they start receiving the their salary into Revolut, holding their savings into Revolut because they they love the product more. And so we can easily do another, I don't know, two, three x, four x in customer base growth.

同时这些用户的产品使用活跃度还能再提升10倍。也就是说，当前450亿的估值还有三十到四十倍的成长空间。这简直就像是一家万亿市值的公司。

But we can also do another 10 x growth in how actively these people are using the product. So it's, let's say, what, thirty, forty x to current 45,000,000,000 valuation. Right? So it's a it's like a a trillion dollar company

确实如此。说到这里，我明白现在仍是加入的绝佳时机，发展潜力巨大。听说你们正在招聘，我们简单提一下这点。

easily. And on that note, I know what I'm hearing is it's still a good a great time to join. There's a massive upside. So I know you guys are hiring. We'll just note that real quick.

你们应该还在招聘产品负责人和其他不少职位吧？

There's a you're hiring product owners in a bunch of other roles, I imagine.

没错。作为产品职能的负责人，我自然特别关注产品负责人岗位。不过我们...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We well, as someone who owns a product function, I'm especially interested in product owners, obviously. But we yeah.

我们招聘的岗位很多，目前大概有三四百个空缺职位。

We hire a lot of roles, I think. We have maybe three or 400 open positions currently.

天啊。好吧。我想聊聊你们正在开发的新项目。就是那些你们决定投资的新产品。关于如何为新产品的成功铺路，你们有什么心得吗？

Oh my god. Okay. I wanna talk a bit about new stuff that you work on. So new products that you decide to invest in. Is there anything that you've figured out about just like how to set up new products for success?

因为我们之前讨论的很多内容都是关于如何持续优化现有产品。那么对于帮助新产品获得成功，你们学到了什么？

Because a lot of the stuff we've been talking about is staying on top of stuff that you're iterating on and making better. What have you learned about just helping new products succeed?

没错。我们推出了不少你可能想不到会出自银行的创新产品，比如加密货币业务就取得了惊人成功。此外还有非金融服务，像通过Revolutep预订酒店、我们的忠诚度计划RevPoints——这在欧洲市场堪称颠覆性创新，因为当地信用卡消费通常没有丰厚回馈。在美国，信用卡随便就能拿到2%现金返还或积分奖励，但欧洲市场长期缺乏这类福利。

Yeah. So we launched quite a few products that you actually maybe wouldn't expect from a bank, starting with crypto that was insanely successful. But also, nonfinancial services like, booking a hotel through Revolutep, our loyalty program, RevPoints, which, which is sort of disrupting European market where people don't get great benefits from spending with card. In The US, you can easily get, like, what, 2% cashback with a credit card or in some sort of point. In Europe, they don't have it.

实际上我们是首个基于信用卡消费构建奖励计划的企业，为用户提供真正有意义的金钱回报。正如我所说，我们总结出这套成功方法论后就开始规模化复制。为此我们建立了'新赌注'框架，任何员工——无论是产品经理还是普通成员——都可以提出创意。他们需要像初创公司那样证明几个关键要素：市场需求存在、商业逻辑成立。

And we are actually the first to build a program on card spend rewarding people with really meaningful monetary rewards. In the in the manner that I described, like, we we understood, okay, what's the recipe of this success to then scale it and reproduce? So we built a new bets framework, and essentially, everyone can come up with a new idea. It could be a product owner, but it could be anyone. Like, And they need to show some key important things which usually can expect from a startup, like market is there, business case is there.

我们确信能凭借某些独特优势远超竞争对手，当然还要明确产品核心概念和解决的客户痛点。整个流程几乎没有官僚主义——这得益于创始人的亲力亲为，任何项目都能快速获批。我们会组建精干的小团队快速开发初版，然后持续迭代。

We know that we can do it way better than competitors leveraging, for example, some things that that that we have. Obviously, some concepts of product and then what customer problem we're solving and so on. And there is very little bureaucracy. Again, thanks to to having founder of hands on, we can easily get a green light on anything, start launching it quickly. What what we do is assemble same lean team with just a few people to build first version and then iterate and iterate.

关键在于用最短时间做出初版收集反馈，但绝不急于扩张规模，直到产品打磨成熟。当我们确认各项指标健康、用户留存优异时，才会开始规模化。好消息是这些产品能立即触达我们5000万用户基础，获得巨大流量。比如你提到的联名账户功能——就是可以和伴侣共同管理的账户——作为近期上线的新功能，增长迅猛，目前活跃用户已超百万。

And the main thing here is to build first version very quickly to get feedback, but then not scale it before you polish the product. But then after after we make sure that, you know, all metrics are fine, retention is great, we start scaling it. And the good news is that it can be instantly multiplied by our 50,000,000 customer base and get great traction. So for example, one of the products that you mentioned, joint accounts, essentially an account that you could have with a significant other one, was one of the recently launched feature, and it grew significantly. And now it has over a million active users.

我听到一个

I hear one

你们处理这些早期产品的一个不同之处在于，你们投入大量精力确保产品真正优质，而不仅仅是凑合的最小可行产品。这听起来熟悉吗？有共鸣吗？

of the ways you kind of approach these early products differently is you guys invest a lot in actually making it good and not just like a scrappy MVP. Does that ring a bell? Does that resonate?

确实如此。这正是我之前提到的，将首个版本限定在小范围用户群体中。但即便如此，我们仍确保产品足够出色。打造精雕细琢的产品这一要求适用于所有人，虽然耗时，但终有回报。

Indeed. That that that's what I may be meant by, you know, keeping your first version narrowed down to a small user base. But even in this case, we still make sure that the product is well. So no one is excluded from this requirement of building a super polished product. It takes time, but it pays off.

关键在于，当你推出一个粗糙版本却未能获得关注时，你如何判断问题所在？是核心理念有误？还是产品本身太差需要改进？因此我们强制要求每个人都必须打造令人喜爱的产品，我们追求的是惊艳级产品。

You know, the thing is that when you launch a scrappy version, and it's not getting traction, how do you know? Is it because the underlying idea is wrong? Or maybe your product just sucks and you need to to improve it? So by, you know, by by forcing everyone to build a product that people will love. We're building a wow product.

我们某种程度上消除了这种不确定性。简而言之，我们可以将产品功能精简至最核心的部分，但绝不会在质量、用户体验和美学设计上妥协。

We kind of cut out this part of uncertainty. So bottom line, we can cut down the product in terms of functionality to to just most critical features, but we will never compromise on the quality and UX and the aesthetics.

听你讲述时我意识到你们有个有趣优势：你们推出的多数产品显然是人们会想要的，因为这些功能虽然别处也有，但整合进你们现有产品体系后更具优势。比如加密货币产品——人们当然会喜欢一个内置的优秀加密货币功能，或者联名账户。

An interesting advantage you guys have that I'm realizing as you talk is, like, most of the stuff you launch is stuff that is clearly something people will want because it's stuff that, you know, they get other places, but they get the advantages of it being integrated into all the other features and products you have. So it's like, you know, a cryptocurrency product. I could it's kind of like, okay. Yeah. People would love a great cryptocurrency product built into this or joint accounts.

所以几乎存在这样一种天然优势：既然人们现在就需要这个功能，我们只需确保它与现有体系完美协同即可。你们不必在每个细分产品上都做到极致——尽管听起来你们仍在朝这个方向努力。

So there's almost like a benefit of just like, okay. The people will want this now. Let's just make it work really well with everything else we got and not hurt. Like, you almost don't need to be the best at every product. Although, it sounds like you still try to be the best.

但我们必须做到最好。没错，百分之百。

But we must be the best. Yeah. 100%.

但你也知道，就算没有最好的联名账户，只要其他方面都很出色，人们也会觉得没关系。这样生活更方便。但请告诉我可能遗漏了什么，因为

But there's also, like you know, like, if you don't have the best joint account, but all the other stuff is awesome, people are like, alright. It's fine. It just makes my life easier. But tell me what I might be missing because

我认为我们正在构建的是任何银行都应提供的基础服务。比如储蓄账户，对吧？这是最基本的东西，如果一家银行连储蓄账户都没有，你根本不会考虑它。但我们会确保利率极具竞争力，即使不是最高。

So I think there are those kind of table stakes that we're building that anyone would expect from a bank. Like, for example, savings account. Right? It's just a basic thing that if a bank is not providing savings account, you wouldn't even consider it. But then we make sure that our rates are very competitive, if not the best.

然后我们确保用户体验不会出问题。有些银行不允许即时取款，会有延迟，或者不按日计息。我们绝不会这样做。如果你想转出资金，随时都可以操作，不会损失任何利息。

Then we make sure that there is no bad UX. Like, you know, some banks, they, for example, they don't allow you to withdraw instantly, and there are delays, or they don't pay interest on daily basis. We will never do that. We will allow you if you want to move money out, you will be able to do it. You won't lose any interest.

利息每日结算，这是个完全灵活的产品。此外，我们称之为'惊喜功能'的是支持多币种储蓄账户。现在利率下行，人们可能会觉得开立比如瑞典克朗账户很有价值——我知道欧洲的克朗利率高于欧元区，甚至巴西雷亚尔能有12%的利率，而欧元只有2-3%。

And interest is being paid daily, and this is a fully flexible product. And then on top of it, what I would call maybe some delighters is we will allow you to open the savings account in many currencies. So we want to add, like, different currencies. So because now interest rates are going down, so people might find it valuable to open a savings account in for example, I know. In Europe, like Swedish krona, interest rates are higher than Europe, but it could be even something like Brazilian real or with, what, 12% interest rate versus, like, two or 3% on euros.

锦上添花的是，所有这些都通过流畅的UI实现。你可以设置自定义壁纸、设定目标、将零钱自动转入储蓄账户等等。底层是必须与竞争对手持平的基础功能层。

And then as a cherry on top, there is this all all that in an amazing UI, very smooth. You can set custom wallpapers. You can set goals. You can automate spare change towards your savings account and and all those features. So there is an underlying basic fundamental layer where you need to be just on par with competition.

但上层还有很多让用户更爱产品的功能。这些功能间存在协同效应。比如加密货币，你可以直接接收至钱包，立即兑换成账户现金或用卡消费。想想用以太坊买咖啡有多酷？

But then there are a lot of things on top that just make people love your product way more. And, obviously, there are a lot of synergies in between those things. So, yeah, thinking of crypto, you can just receive crypto on your wallet, and then you can just instantly convert it to to cash on your account, or just spend it with your card. How amazing can it be, right, to to just buy a coffee with with Ethereum?

太棒了。借这个机会，我来总结下从你这学到的——关于如何培养出能创造奇迹的顶尖产品领导者，并打造出最成功的三家公司之一。通过和你及Palantir那位交流，我发现有两个关键部分：招聘环节，以及你们如何孵化这种锻造卓越产品领导者的熔炉。

I love that. Okay. Let me take this opportunity to try to summarize what I've learned from you so far in terms of what you guys have figured out about creating incredible product leaders that go on to do wonderful things and basically one of the one of the top three most successful companies at this. So there's kind of these two buckets as I talk to you and the Palantir guy. There's kinda like the hiring piece, and then there's the what you do to help incubate this kind of forge for incredible product leaders.

关于内部运作，我总结的四个要点是：充分授权。他们实质上是产品或功能的总经理。非常注重深度与复杂性，擅长解决棘手问题。其次是专注于打造令人惊叹的产品，即高标准、令人爱不释手的产品。另外我认为有个子要点在这里很关键——与痴迷细节的创始人或产品负责人（比如你）紧密合作，向你们学习，亲眼见证极致细节导向带来的价值与影响力。

So in the what you do internally, kind of the four bullet points I've got here is give people a lot of ownership. They're essentially GMs of the product, the feature. There's a lot of focus on depth and complexity and getting really good at solving really gnarly problems. And then there's building a focus on building wow products, amazing, lovable products that are very that have a very high bar. And then there's kinda, like, a sub bullet point that I think is probably impactful here is just working closely with detail obsessed founders or product leaders like you and learning from you all and just, like, seeing the value and impact of being super detail oriented.

在这个框架下，你觉得在进入招聘话题前，我是否遗漏了其他核心要点？

On that bucket, is there anything else do you think is super core that I missed before we get to hiring?

是的。我可能要特别强调深入细节这个维度。这里主要有两条主线：首先是技术层面，理解底层系统运作原理。

Yeah. I would just maybe highlight the aspect of this, like, going deep into details. Right? It's it's there there are two main streams. First is, let's say, being technical, understanding how underlying systems work.

其次是建立对客户的同理心，理解他们可能的使用场景，确保产品能满足每一个用户的需求。

But second is also, you know, building empathy towards customers, understand their possible contexts, and making sure that your product will satisfy each one of them.

说得好。这就像既要真正理解底层发生的实际情况及其可能性，又要让用户体验尽可能简单且令人惊艳。

That's a great point. So it's like actually understanding the bare metal of what is happening and how it's possible, and then making the experience as simple and wowable as possible.

其实还有第三个维度，虽然很枯燥——确保符合所有可能的法规要求，让产品通过监管审查。但这同样是工作的重要部分。

There is also a third aspect, but it's a boring one. And it's a it's it's like complying with all possible regulations and making sure that your product, you know, will will satisfy the regulator. But it's also an important part of the of the job.

我从中领悟到的是：这其实是在培养耐心。

Like, what I get from that is just building patience.

我认为关键在于能够为团队扫清障碍，这有时需要产品负责人强势推动变革。因为这还意味着，你可能会陷入多人互相观望的僵局，他们会想：这个能批准吗？那个能批准吗？我们努力在这方面创新，尽可能实现自动化。

I would say I would say it's actually being able to to unblock your team, and that sometimes require product owners to steamroll changes. Because it it also means that, you know, you could easily get stuck with a lot of people just looking into each other and think, okay, can they approve it? Can they not approve it? We try to innovate on it. We try to automate as many things as possible.

我们甚至为此使用AI模型。但这同样要求产品负责人具备执行力，能够推动人们达成共识，了解利益相关方是谁，如何促使他们做出必要决策，然后为团队排除障碍，最终将价值交付给客户。

We use even AI models for that. But it also requires a product owner to be able to to get things done, you know, to just just getting people down to to consensus and understanding who your stakeholders, how to get them to the necessary decision, and then blocking your team so that eventually, like, the value is shipped to to customers.

太棒了。所以本质上就是排除万难把事情搞定，处理众多利益相关方的关系。

Awesome. So essentially, it's just getting shit done, plowing through blockers, dealing with many stakeholders.

是的。这一直是最重要的。

Yeah. That's always the most important.

好的，这个补充很棒。我明白为什么这对想要职业发展的人会很有帮助。那么在招聘方面，你们主要考察的是原始智力、驱动力、进取心和热情对吧？

Okay. That that's a great addition. I could see why that would be really helpful for folks that are trying to get ahead in their career. Okay. And then on the hiring piece, what you look for is raw intellect, drive, hunger, passion, essentially.

前两点是这些。有趣的是，不要求资深，不需要在问题领域有丰富经验的人，更注重智力和进取心。你觉得还有哪些特质能让人真正成功？

Those are the first two. And then interestingly, non senior, non not people with a ton of experience in the problem space, more so focusing on intellect and hunger. Is there anything else in that bucket that you think is important that leads to people being really successful?

最重要的是亲力亲为、动手解决问题。优秀的产品负责人都是实干派，他们不把自己视为只会分配任务然后等待结果的管理者。他们会主动解决问题，明白最重要的事往往需要自己动手，并且深知必须持续聚焦于执行。

Most importantly, it's, again, getting things done, getting your hands dirty. And, you know, like, great product owners are very hands on. They don't think of themselves as managers who just give tasks to people and wait them to to complete it. They they just go and get things done, and they understand that most important things they will likely have to do themselves. And they understand that there needs to be relentless focus on execution.

如果某件事完成了99%，那它更接近于0%而非100%。

And if something is 99% done, it's closer to 0% rather than 100%.

哇，接着说。这个见解是不是指那些看似完成了99%，实际上离真正完成还差很远的事情？

Woah. Say more there. Is the kind of the insight there is just like things seem like they're 99 done, but they're actually very far from being done?

就像有时候产品虽然建好了，但产品负责人还得确保客服团队或销售营销团队能充分使用它，对吧？否则它可能只是个无人知晓的无用功能。

Like, sometimes the product is built, but then product owners are the ones who also, you know, make sure that, for example, customer care team or sales and marketing team are using it to a full extent. Right? Because without it, it could be just another useless feature which no and no one knows about it.

这太酷了，我喜欢这种思维方式。让我问个完全不同的问题——你是怎么加入Revolut的？我知道你不得不举家搬迁。

That is super cool. I like that mentality. Let me ask you something completely different. What's kind of the story of you landing at Revolut? I know you had to move your family.

那真是一场大冒险。

It was a whole adventure.

我加入Revolut的旅程其实和移居英国是同步的。那对我而言是个全新的环境，对大脑也是巨大的压力考验。不仅要适应英国靠左行驶的规则，还包括行业里许多从未接触过的概念——毕竟我之前从未在金融科技领域工作过，相当于跨了行业。

My journey into Revolut actually coincided with me moving to The UK. So it was a completely new environment for for myself. It's it's it's a huge stress lot for the brain as well. And it's not only about using the other side of the lane on the road in The UK, but also it's a lot of things, for example, in the industry, like some concepts that I've never heard about. And, actually, I've never worked at fintech before, so I also changed the industry.

这对我个人和职业生涯都是彻底的转变。但我非常坚定且兴奋，因为每个和我交谈过的人都说Revolut汇聚了顶尖人才，是最好的产品人向往之地，我真的很想成为这个优秀团队的一员。

So it was like a complete complete turnaround for for me and for my career. But I was I was very determined and excited about it, because everyone who I've been talking to, they were saying Revolut is, like, its top talent. He's a traveler. Like, all best product people are a traveler. And I I really wanted to be part of this great team.

最终，这实际上对我有利，因为我也能以全新的视角看待事物。即使在Revolut应用中——它确实比其他银行的产品优秀得多——由于缺乏背景知识，我发现有些功能并不直观，于是我和团队努力进行了改进。

Eventually, it actually appeared to be advantageous for me because I also had this fresh view on things. And even in the Revolut app, which is actually way, way better than other banks' products. Right? But even there, I found some things that for me, because of this, like, lack of context, they were not intuitive, and I worked hard to with the team to to to change that.

好的，太棒了。现在进入我们播客的固定环节——'失败角落'。在这个环节里，嘉宾们会分享那些不常提及的挫折故事。

Okay. Great. I'm gonna take us to a recurring segment of the podcast. I'm gonna take us to fail corner. So in fail corner, the idea here is people come on this podcast.

他们总是在播客中分享各种成功故事，好像一切都很顺利。但现实中事情往往不尽如人意。能否分享你职业生涯中某个产品失败或至暗时刻的经历？

They share all these stories of success. Everything's always going great. But in reality, things don't often go great, and there's a lot of things that don't go right. Is there a story you could share where where things went wrong in your career, where you failed with a product you're building or a moment in your career where things were looking really bad?

我认为最惨烈的失败发生在职业生涯早期，那时我还在大学。大二时就开始组建团队创业，其中一个项目至今让我自豪——那是约十五年前（2030年左右），当时连iPhone都尚未普及。我和朋友开发了在线选座购票网站，让人们免于排队。

I think the most spectacular failures probably were on the earlier stage of my career, which I started back at university. And maybe in my second year of university, started building some teams, different startups. And one of them was actually a product that makes me proud even now because it was, like, what, fifteen years ago. So 2030, meaning, like, still no no one really had even iPhones back then. And me and my friends, we started building a website that allows people to buy tickets to the city so that they can skip the line, so they they don't need to come in advance to select best seats, and they can just buy a ticket online and go to their seats directly.

如今这已是标配功能，但当时人们还在用纸质票。我们构建了端到端系统：不仅开发网站，还自制了票务扫描硬件。由于用户没有智能手机（只有诺基亚），我们甚至改造了SMS标准来传输二维码票务。

Something that today seems as a commodity back then, like, no one had it. Like, people were using pieces of paper. And we built, like, an end to end system because not only we needed to build a website, but we also needed to build hardware to scan those tickets, for example. And and to have these tickets in digital format, we needed to hack SMS standard because, again, like, the people didn't have smartphones. They had this Nokias, and we were sending images, QR codes inside an SMS, which which is like a heck of the of the standards in in a way.

我们用自制设备扫描这些电子票，那些不锈钢打造的扫描仪在影院里看起来非常高端。记得当时我和伙伴们兴奋不已，觉得我们正在创造未来——但问题是我们把所有投资都砸在了硬件上。

And then we were scanning those things with our own devices, and we built our own devices with scanners, and we actually, like we created these these beautiful, like, devices made from stainless steel, which looked really nice inside the cinema halls. And I remember how I was excited about it with with my friends. We were like, what an amazing thing. It's like, look. We're we're bringing future here, but we actually spent all our investment on this hardware.

我们预期用户会蜂拥使用这套系统，但实际在线购票比例极低——市场还没准备好。由于资金耗尽（全投入了未经市场验证的硬件），项目最终夭折。如今看来这显然是个错误，但当时我们只是沉醉于打造自己喜爱的产品，这本是正确原则。

And we were expecting that everyone will just rush into using our system. But it was a very low share of customers who started buying tickets online because people were not ready for it, which was growing quite slowly. And eventually, we had to close it because we simply ran out of money because we spent all of it on this hardware without any proven business model. Something that that currently looks like an obvious mistake. Back then, we were just, you know, enjoying building a product that we would love to use ourselves, which I think is is the right principle.

但这同样是一个非常痛苦的教训。你需要保持精简，在扩大规模前必须验证想法，更需要深入思考业务的运营成本。这些对我来说都是惨痛的教训。

But it also it also was a very painful lesson. You need to stay lean. You need to validate things before you scale them. You need to think way more about the run rate of your business. So there were a lot of painful lessons for me.

自那以后，我也尽量避免涉足硬件领域。我正想说这个，这确实是个...

Since then, I also try to avoid working with hardware. I was just gonna say that. That's a

对于初创企业直接进入硬件领域来说，这是普遍存在的挑战。不过如果现在Revolut推出新产品线我也不会惊讶，毕竟你们已经积累了相关经验。

common common challenge for startups trying to get right into hardware. Although I wouldn't be surprised now if Revolut launches something, another product, and this is this is a new product line of Revolut now that you've had that experience.

是的。我们其实已经推出了POS收单终端。

Yeah. We actually launched Oh. POS terminals for acquiring.

好的，果然如此。德米特里，在我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节前，还有什么我们没谈到的、对听众特别有价值的内容吗？比如你尚未分享的智慧结晶，或是值得再次强调的观点？

Alright. There we go. Dmitry, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be really helpful for listeners to hear, maybe a less wisdom nugget that you haven't already shared or even just something to kind of double down on that you've already shared?

没有了。我认为这次对话非常精彩，感谢各位。我们涵盖了众多话题。或许可以总结为：如果你对构建某些事物充满热情，就永远不要犹豫。最好的实现方式可能就是创立自己的公司。

No. I think that it was an amazing chat, thanks to any of you. We covered a lot of different topics. I would just maybe summarize that if you're excited to build certain things, never hesitate to do it. The best way to do it is probably your own startup.

同时这也能让你获得最陡峭的学习曲线。但如果你想加入某家公司，尽量选择最具创业精神的那家，这样你就能以最接近创始人的模式工作。

And it also what will give you the steepest possible learning curve. But then if you want to join a company, try to choose the one that has this highest entrepreneurial spirit and that will allow you to work as closer to a mode of a founder as you possibly can.

这是我与那些培养出职业发展最迅猛的产品经理的公司交谈时反复出现的主题。如果你希望加入这家公司后职业能快速腾飞，那么这条建议正是我要传达的核心。好了，德米特里，现在我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节，你准备好了吗？

That's a recurring theme in these conversations I'm having with companies that produce the PMs that have the steepest career trajectory. And so if that that advice is exactly what I'm taking away from this too, assuming you want your career to accelerate really quickly after you go work at this company. Okay. Dmitry, with that, we've reached a very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?

准备好了，开始吧。让我们看看，这就开始。好的。

Yes. Let's go. Let's see. Here we go. Okay.

第一个问题：你向他人推荐最多的两到三本书是什么？

First question. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

本·霍洛维茨的《创业维艰》。虽然我读这本书已经有些年头了，但它确实是我最常推荐给产品经理的读物。这本书生动诠释了要成为优秀产品经理，就必须以成为杰出CEO为目标。此外，书中强调建立系统化、可扩展解决方案的重要性，这对企业规模化发展至关重要。同时也要坦诚面对处理琐事的必要性。

The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz. Actually, I read it quite some time ago, but I I found myself recommending it to other product managers most often. It's actually illustrative that to be a great product manager, someone needs to strive to be in a great CEO. And besides this book emphasizes the importance of building systematic solutions and scalable solutions, which is critical for scaling the company. Also, be being honest on how important it is to grind stuff.

第二本是托尼·法德尔近期写的《创造》。这本书特别激励我，尤其是考虑到硬件开发的难度，以及托尼在书中描述的种种经历，读起来既令人振奋又发人深省。另外我认为产品经理存在不同类型，有些人更倾向于颠覆性创新。

And then second book is I I read it more recently, Built by Tony Fadell. I was really inspired by this one, especially given how I appreciate how it's not easy to build hardware and what what Tony was describing there. It's just it's just super exciting and and inspiring. And, also, I, you know, I think that there are different archetypes of product managers. There are people who tend to disrupt things more.

就我个人而言，我认为自己属于建设者类型。所以托尼在书中强调的原则让我深有共鸣。

Personally, I think about myself as of a builder. So Tony is a principle that he highlighted in the book. They they resonate with me a lot.

我正尝试邀请托尼上播客。如果听众中有认识托尼·法德尔的，请帮忙牵个线——对莱尼说声同意就太好了。我已经和他的团队取得了联系。

I'm trying to get Tony on the podcast. If anyone listening knows Tony Fadell and can nudge him, hey. Say yes to Lenny. That'd be great. I've been in touch with his team.

他现在不做播客节目，但我正试着邀请他上节目。好的，换个话题。你最近有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

He's not doing podcasts right now, but I'm trying to get him on. Okay. Moving on. Do have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

我想我最近看的是《奥本海默》，我真的很喜欢。我一直很爱看传记片，它们能让你从不同角度思考问题，你知道的，换个视角看事情。

I think the last movie I watched was Oppenheimer, and I really liked it. I always love watching biopics. I think they give you kind of a perspective and let you think about, you know, things in perspective.

你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的新产品？

Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

Manus真是个了不起的东西，那个AI智能体。对，对，它简直让我惊艳到不行——

Manus is a is a great thing. The AI agent. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just like I was super impressed how

我

I

我完全被迷住了。它是如此自主流畅，我就花了几个小时沉浸式编程，创建了一个每天给我发送一个罕见英语单词来学习和记忆的JavaScript应用。而且它真的运行成功了，我简直惊叹不已。

I was mesmerized. Like, it's it's so autonomous and smooth, and I I just spent, like, a few hours the vibe coding, and I created this JavaScript app that sends me a rare English word every day to learn and remember. And it, like, it it it's it worked, and I was I was just amazed.

它学会了什么？你学到了哪个单词？

What's what's it learned? What's a word you learned?

不可言喻。就是那个‘是’。

Ineffable. It was the yes.

是爱让它持续至今。这很棒。你有什么经常在工作中或生活中觉得有用的座右铭吗？

I It was love that it's still going. That's great. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?

我喜欢这句话。我想是艾森豪威尔说的。‘计划本身毫无价值，但规划就是一切。’这就像，你知道，我们经常说要灵活敏捷、适应变化，但这并不意味着我们可以完全没有计划。重要的是要记住，我们总是需要未雨绸缪。

I love this phrase. I think Eisenhower said it. Plans are worthless, but planning is everything. It's it's like, you know, we we we often say how important it is to be flexible and agile and adjust to changing circumstances, but it doesn't allow us to actually not have a plan at all. It's important for us to remember that, you know, we we we always need to think many steps ahead.

在保持灵活性的同时，我们还需要把事情想透彻。

And while being flexible, we also need to to think things thoroughly.

最后一个问题。对于那些第一次接触Revolut想尝试的新用户，你认为最被低估的功能是什么？有什么你觉得人们应该了解但可能还不知道的功能？或者哪怕是某个用户体验细节，比如某个有趣的动画效果之类的？

Final question. For folks that are maybe checking out Revolut for the first time, that wanna play with it already users, what's the most underrated feature? What's something that you think people should check out maybe they're not aware of? Or even just like a UX, I don't know, animation, something fun that people may not know about.

目前还没被广泛使用但我非常喜欢的功能，是我们称之为‘财富保护’的功能。在设置中开启后，你可以为Revolut外的转账设置限额。如果转账超出限额，就需要进行自拍验证——这是我们的专利技术。通过视频自拍确保是本人操作，防止他人盗转。

The thing that is not yet widely used, but I really loved it, is what we call a wealth protection. So if you go to settings, you can enable a limit for any transfers outside of Revolut. And if you want to do a transfer above this limit, you will have to do a selfie check, which is our proprietary technology. We do a video selfie that allows us to make sure that it's you. No one else is doing the transfer.

本质上它几乎和面容ID一样流畅，团队构建的方式真的很棒。我为他们感到非常自豪。

And, essentially, it's almost as smooth as face ID, and the way team built it is is really great. I was I'm really proud of those guys.

德米特里，你们正在做一件非常特别的事情。我非常感谢你花这么多时间和我聊天，分享你们团队的所有发现。我认为这将帮助许多公司提升他们对产品的思考方式，也让那些想体验并加速职业发展的人加入Revolut。所以感谢你的到来。最后两个问题。

Dmitry, you guys are doing something very special. I really appreciate you spending so much time with me chatting through all the things you guys have figured out. I think this is gonna help a lot of different companies level up the way they think about product and for people to join Revolut that wanna experience this and accelerate their career. So thank you for being here. Two final questions.

如果有人想联系你，他们可以在哪里找到你？听众们怎样才能对你有所帮助？

Where can folks find you if they wanna reach And how can listeners be useful to you?

我认为最好的方式是通过LinkedIn找到我。是的，我很乐意收到任何关于如何改进产品的建议或反馈。另外，如果你听完我的分享后认识适合Revolut的人选，我也会非常感激你的推荐。

I think the best way is to find me on LinkedIn. And, yeah, I would be happy to receive a note from anyone on how we can improve the product, any feedback on the product. And also, if you know someone who can be a great fit to Revolut after after you've listened to what I've told, then, yeah, I would be grateful for that as well.

太棒了。你即将收到大量申请。做好准备。很高兴认识你。是的。

Awesome. You're about to get a flood of applications. Get prepared. Good meet you. Yeah.

维尼，非常感谢。这次交流非常

Vinnie, thanks a lot. It was amazing to

愉快。

be here.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

我也是。再见，各位。非常感谢大家的收听。如果你觉得这期节目有价值，可以在苹果播客、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。同时，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。

Same. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

你可以在lenny'spodcast.com上找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。我们下期节目再见。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com. See you in the next episode.