谷歌AI转型内幕：AI模式的崛起、AI概览背后的战略及其AI驱动搜索愿景 | Robby Stein（谷歌搜索产品副总裁）

感觉谷歌内部发生了某种变化。就在上周，Google Gemini登上了应用商店榜首。我觉得没人预料到这一点。

It feels like something has changed internally at Google. Just last week, Google Gemini hit the number one app in the App Store. I feel like nobody saw this coming.

谷歌的使命是让所有信息都能被普遍获取。这是一个非常持久且激励人心的目标，而在AI时代，我们比以往任何时候都更接近实现它。我现在感受到的是一种难以置信的专注和紧迫感。这些模型已经达到临界点，真正能为消费者提供价值了。

Google's mission around have any information be universally accessible. This is a very enduring, very motivating thing, and it feels like with the AI moment, we can actually achieve that more than ever before. What I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency. Things have hit a tipping point where these models are now truly able to deliver for consumers.

过去几年随着Chateaubiti的崛起，随着Perplexity的出现，很多人都在说谷歌完蛋了。没人愿意费劲浏览搜索结果点击链接了。

As Chateaubiti emerged over the past couple years, as perplexity emerged, a lot of people were just like, Google is dead. Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links.

在我看来，谷歌的核心搜索其实没有改变。我们没看到这种情况。人们搜索的目的千奇百怪——他们可能想查某个电话号码，或是某件商品的价格。

The core Google search isn't really changing in my opinion. We're not seeing that. People come to search for just ridiculously wide set of things. They want specific phone number. They want a price for something.

他们需要导航路线。我认为这种需求的广泛性被很多人低估了。AI具有扩张性，实际上现在有越来越多的问题可以通过AI来满足人们的好奇心。

They wanna get directions. I think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people. AI is expansionary. There's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI.

你们打造过许多非常成功的产品。你用过'体现持续改进'这个说法。

You've built a lot of very successful products. You use this phrase embodying relentless improvement.

你需要成为两种特质的具象化体现：一是永不停歇，始终朝着积极产出的方向全力以赴；二是持续优化，你必须不断让事物变得更好，永远不知满足。

You need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things. One is just relentlessness, like just complete effort that is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity. And then the second is make things better. You have to always make things better. You're never content.

你在Instagram上构建并发布故事功能。回溯当初，这颇具争议性，因为它基本上借鉴了Snapchat做得非常出色的功能，然后就像是说，嘿，我们把它搬到Instagram上来吧。

You build and launch stories at Instagram. Back in the day, it's quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well, and then, like, hey, let's bring it to Instagram.

并非所有伟大的事物都将由你发明。Facebook可能创造了现代信息流，但每个产品都有自己的信息流。归根结底，你某种程度上是在剥夺用户获得更好产品的机会。

Not every great thing is gonna be invented by you. Facebook probably created the modern feed, but there's a feed for every single product. At the end of the day, you're kind of just robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product.

今天，我的嘉宾是罗比·斯坦。罗比是谷歌搜索的产品副总裁，负责整个谷歌搜索体验，包括新的AI概览、AI模式、多模态AI体验如Google Lens、排名算法等众多方面。他站在谷歌历史上最大变革的前沿，已经对谷歌的发展轨迹产生了巨大影响。他同样深刻改变了Instagram的发展路径，在那里他曾担任产品负责人，主导了Instagram故事、Reels和亲密好友功能的发布，通过这些将Instagram的日活跃用户增长至五亿。他还是Artifact的创始团队成员，与迈克·克里格和凯文·斯特罗姆共事，并创立了两家自己的公司。

Today, my guest is Robbie Stein. Robbie's VP of product for Google Search and is responsible for essentially the entire Google search experience, including the new AI overviews, AI mode, multimodal AI experiences like Google Lens, the ranking algorithm, and a lot more. He's at the forefront of one of the biggest shifts in Google's history and has already made a massive dent in Google's trajectory. He's also made a massive dent in the trajectory of Instagram, where he was head of product and led the launch of Instagram stories and reels and close friends, and through that grew Instagram to half a billion daily active users. He's also on the founding team of Artifact with Mike Krieger and Kevin Systrom, started two companies of his own.

极少有人能对两个如此规模的全球消费级产品产生这般程度的影响。罗比分享了他在打造成功消费产品过程中学到的所有重要经验，以及关于谷歌在AI领域发展方向的诸多洞见。特别感谢巴特·斯坦为本次对话提供话题建议。如果你喜欢这期播客，别忘了在你喜欢的播客应用或YouTube上订阅关注，这对我们帮助巨大。若你成为我通讯的年费订阅用户，还可免费获得15款卓越产品的一年使用权，包括Lovable、Replit、Bolt、N Eight、Linear、Superhuman、Descript、Whisper、Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、Chat PRD和Mobbin。

Very few people have had this level of impact on two global consumer products at this scale, and Robbie shares all of the biggest lessons that he's learned about building great and successful consumer products, along with a bunch of insights into where Google is headed in the world of AI. A huge thank you to Bart Stein for suggesting topics for this conversation. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products, including lovable, replit, bolt, n eight, and linear superhuman, descript, whisper flow, gamma, perplexity, warp granola, magic patterns, raycast, chat PRD, and mobbin.

请访问Lenny's newsletter.com并点击Product Pass。接下来，有请罗比·斯坦。我和播客嘉宾热爱探讨工艺、品味、能动性和产品市场契合度。但你知道我们不爱聊什么吗？SOC2合规认证。

Head on over to Lenny's newsletter dot com and click product pass. With that, I bring you Robbie Stein. My podcast guest and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit. You know what we don't love talking about? SOC two.

这正是Vanta的用武之地。Vanta通过行业领先的AI、自动化和持续监控，帮助各种规模的公司快速实现合规并持续保持。无论你是初创公司首次应对SOC2或ISO27001认证，还是企业处理供应商风险，Vanta的信任管理平台都能让流程更快捷、更简单、更具扩展性。Vanta还能助你将安全问卷填写速度提升五倍，从而更快赢得大额交易。结果如何？

That's where Vanta comes in. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring. Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC two or ISO twenty seven zero zero one or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner. The result?

根据IDC最新研究，Vanta客户每年节省超50万美元，效率提升三倍。建立信任并非可选项——Vanta让它自动实现。登录vanta.com/lending可享1000美元优惠。本期节目由Jira Product Discovery赞助播出。

According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lending. This episode is brought to you by Jira Product Discovery.

打造产品最困难的部分其实并非产品本身，而是其他所有环节。包括证明工作价值、管理利益相关者、提前规划等。大多数团队花费更多时间在被动应对而非主动学习上，疲于追踪更新、论证路线图、不断疏通阻塞以维持运转。Jira产品探索功能让您重掌主动权。

The hardest part of building products isn't actually building products. It's everything else. It's proving that the work matters, managing stakeholders, trying to plan ahead. Most teams spend more time reacting than learning, chasing updates, justifying road maps, and constantly unblocking work to keep things moving. Jira Product Discovery puts you back in control.

通过Jira产品探索，您可以捕捉洞察并优先处理高影响力创意。其灵活性可适应团队工作方式，帮助制定促进共识而非质疑的路线图。由于基于Jira构建，您能在同一平台实现从战略到交付的全程追踪。减少奔波，增加思考、学习和正确构建的时间。立即免费获取Jira产品探索功能：Atlassian.com/lenny。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can capture insights and prioritize high impact ideas. It's flexible, so it adapts to the way your team works and helps you build a road map that drives alignment, not questions. And because it's built on Jira, you can track ideas from strategy to delivery all in one place. Less chasing, more time to think, learn, and build the right thing. Get Jira product discovery for free at Atlassian dot com slash Lenny.

网址是atlassian.com/lenny。Robbie，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎参加本期播客。

That's atlassian.com/lenny. Robbie, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

这周录制播客真是太棒了。就在上周，谷歌Gemini登顶App Store榜首。我手机就在这里，它现在仍是App Store第一名，甚至超过了ChatGPT。

This is such a cool week to be recording this podcast. So just last week, Gemini, Google Gemini hit the number one app in the App Store. I have it right here. It's still number one in the App Store. It's above ChatGPT.

感觉没人预料到这个结果。大家总在质疑：谷歌你们到底在做什么？明明拥有顶尖技术，为什么在消费级产品上毫无建树？为什么JetGPT等公司表现更出色？首先我要说恭喜，虽然这不全是你的功劳，但想必你也参与其中。

I feel like nobody saw this coming. I feel like everyone's always like, Google, what have you guys been doing? You guys build all this amazing tech. And where does why isn't why didn't you have anything working consumer wise jet GPT wing, why are all these amazing companies doing better than Google. So first of all, let me just say congrats, congrats on I know this isn't all you, I imagine you had some part in this.

衷心祝贺

Just congrats

多得多的人。

many, many more people.

是的，感觉谷歌内部发生了某种变化，似乎一切开始真正运转起来，尤其是在面向消费者的AI领域。那么就增长而言，Nano Banana是近期许多增长的主要来源吗？

Yes, It feels like something has changed internally at Google, feels like things are starting to really work, especially on the AI consumer side. So in terms of the growth, is Nano Banana the source of a lot of this recent growth,

人们对Nano Banana真的非常兴奋吗？明确地说，确实如此。但我想人们也意识到，在谷歌的一系列产品中可以做很多酷炫的事情，而且它们变得相当强大。所以我总是感到惊讶，即使是搜索功能中的东西，我们认为它们非常明显，因为它们就在核心搜索体验中，然后在X上，我会去看看，哦，我刚发现这个AI功能，它看起来非常明显，但我想很多人现在才发现这些工具有多么强大。

is there something People are really excited about Nano Banana, to be clear, very much so. But I think also people are recognizing that, you know, there's just so many cool things that you can do across the Google set of products, and and they become quite powerful. And so I'm always shocked even for, you know, things in search people, like we think they're very obvious because they sit right in the core search experience, and then on on x, I'll go look and like, oh, I just found out about this AI thing, and it seems very obvious, but I think a lot of people are just discovering quite how powerful these tools are now.

是的。那么深入一点，按照你的观点，所有这些令人难以置信的技术都存在。你们写了最初的transformers论文，推动了如此多的创新，但谷歌到底在哪里，为什么他们没有构建出获胜的产品。改变的是不是就像，好吧，我们需要。是否有重大的重组，是否有新的领导者上任，或者在过去几年里是否有新的哲学导致了现在Gemini成为世界顶级应用的这一刻？

Yeah. So to go one level deeper, to your point, there's been all this incredible tech. You guys wrote the original transformers paper that have powered so much of the innovation and it's just like where's Google been actually, why aren't they building the thing that's winning. What has changed is it just like, okay, we need to. Is there been like major re orgs has there been new leaders put in place is there just like a new philosophy in the past couple years that have led to this moment where Gemini is now the top app in the world?

是的，我是说，看，我现在在谷歌。这是我第二次在谷歌工作。我于2007年2月开始在谷歌工作，期间做了很多事情，现在又回到了谷歌。所以我不能谈论从很多很多年前到今天的整个时期。但我可以告诉你的是，我现在感受到的是一种难以置信的专注和紧迫感，要快速交付伟大的产品。

Yeah, I mean, look, I've been at Google now. This is my second time at Google. So I started Google in 02/2007, done a bunch of things in between, and I've been back at Google now. So I can't speak to that whole period for many, many years back to today. But what I can tell you about how I'm what I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency to deliver great products quickly.

我认为这在一定程度上肯定是领导力的作用。我们与DeepMind和Google DeepMind的合作伙伴密切合作。显然，我们在整个组织中密切合作。有一群了不起的人，还有一群了不起的研究人员和技术思想家，他们一直在思考这个问题。所以当你有了这种能量，我认为产品团队和技术研究小组紧密合作，我们能够快速行动，完成了很多工作。

And I think that that is in part leadership for sure. I think the people who are we work very closely with our partners at DeepMind, and the Google DeepMind. We work very closely, obviously, across the the organization. And there's just an incredible group of people and also an incredible group of, you know, researchers and technical thinkers who've been thinking about this for a while. And so when you have that energy, and I think the product teams and the tech, the research groups are working really closely together, we're able to move and we're getting a lot done.

所以我不认为有什么一次性的改变发生了。我认为很多时候人们会把很多动力归因于一次性的改变或一个人。对吧？我发现很多实际上是这种复合效应。当你想到每个月都在无情地改进产品或模型，每天都在变得更好。

And so I don't think there's any like one sting that has happened. I think that a lot of times people ascribe, you know, a lot of momentum to to to a one time change or a single person. Right? I find a lot of this is actually this compounding effect. When you think about just every month, like, ruthlessly improving the product or the models and just in every day getting better.

然后它就会达到一个临界点，人们开始喜欢它。他们用得更多，享受其中。我的感受更多是，我认为我们进行了正确的投资和关注，然后它就迎来了一个时刻，人们现在正看到这些努力的效果。

And then it kinda just hits this tipping point where people just like it. They use it more. They enjoy it. And I that's more of the feeling that I've had is just, you know, we've had kind of, I think, the right investment and focus, and then it it just hit a moment where, you know, people are seeing the effects of that now.

随着ChatGPT在过去几年出现，Perplexity和其他各种聊天机器人涌现，很多人认为谷歌完蛋了。没人愿意浏览搜索结果并点击链接。为什么不直接在那里得到答案呢？但感觉事情并非如此，你们似乎做得很好。

As ChatGPT emerged over the past couple years, as Perplexity emerged in all these other chatbots, a lot of people were just like, Google is dead. Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links. Why not just get your answer right there? And it feels like that's not all happening. It feels like you guys are doing just fine.

你能分享一下谷歌搜索的具体现状吗？然后我们再谈谈AI模式。流量情况如何？考虑到所有这些新事物的存在，搜索业务进展如何？自ChatGPT推出以来，你在数据中看到了什么？

What can you share about just the I don't know the state of Google search specifically and then we'll talk about AI mode. Just like how is traffic going? How is search going considering all these things are out there? And just what are you seeing in the data since the launch of say, chatty PT?

是的，有趣的是人们搜索的内容范围极其广泛，从查询特定电话号码、某物价格、获取路线，到寻找税务支付网页，你能想到的一切。这种多样性被很多人低估了。我们发现这些基础需求并未改变，AI在很多方面并未真正改变这些根本需求。而我们发现AI具有扩展性，实际上现在有越来越多的问题和好奇心可以通过AI来满足。

Yeah, well, what's interesting is people come to search for just ridiculously wide set of things, like all kinds of things they want specific phone number, want to price for something they want to get directions, they want to find a, you know, payment web page for their taxes, every possible thing you can imagine. Think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people. What we see is that that doesn't, it's not changing, like AI hasn't really changed those those foundational needs in many ways. And what we're finding is that AI is expansionary. And so there's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI.

这就是增长所在。在我看来，核心的谷歌搜索并没有真正改变，我们没有看到这种情况，但你正经历这个扩展时刻。我们看到的一些例子是，你现在可以拍摄某物的照片并询问相关问题。Google Lens是增长最快的产品之一，视觉搜索量同比增长70%，这已经是海量规模，达到了数十亿次搜索。

And so that's where you get the growth. And so all like the core Google search isn't really changing in my opinion, we're not seeing that, but you're getting this expansion moment. And so what we're seeing is a few examples is you can now take a picture of something and ask about anything you see. And Google Lens, one of the fastest growing products out there, it's growing 70% year over year increase in visual searches, which is already like a massive scale. It's like billions and billions and billions of searching in that way.

你可以拍下你的鞋子问'这双鞋什么时候买的'，或者拍下作业说'我卡在第二题了'，甚至拍下你的书架问'基于这些书，我还应该读哪些书？'现在AI可以帮助你处理这些事情。

But you can you can take a picture of your shoes. They work when I buy this or take a picture of homework. Say, I am stuck on question two. And then just take a picture of your bookshelf and say, are the books I should get based on these books? And AI can help you with those things now.

这只是我认为为何还有如此大增长空间的一个例子，也是我们如此兴奋的原因。

So just an example of, I think, why there's so much growth left and, you know, why we're so excited.

好的。所以你认为，搜索引擎并未走向消亡。没错。同样地，你们最近推出了AI模式，我觉得这个话题讨论得还不够多。你可以访问google.com/ai试试。

Okay. So you're seeing, you're not seeing the death of search. No. And along the same lines, you guys recently launched AI mode, which I don't think enough people are talking about. I think you get there google.com/ai.

这个网址对吗？好的。

Is that is that the right URL? Okay.

酷。

Cool.

是的。为这次对话做准备时我一直在试用，效果令人惊叹。我问它'关于产品和增长最好的新闻通讯是什么'，它回答得非常聪明。

Yep. So I've been playing with it as we were prepping for this conversation. It's really incredible. I asked it, what is the best newsletter on product and growth? And it's very smart.

所以伦尼的新闻通讯，这就是我的评价。

So Lenny's newsletter, so that's my eval.

太棒了。好，一个完美的评价。

Fantastic. Okay, one of one perfect eval.

完美。另外如果你打开页面，会看到它推荐的问题建议，就像在说'等等，你怎么知道我对这些感兴趣？'比如首页就推荐'转行做产品经理'，我简直想问它怎么知道的。然后它会告诉你这是基于你的谷歌活动数据。

Perfect. Also, just if you go to it, there's these recommendations for things to ask it that are just like, wait, how did you know I care about this stuff? So it's like, me switch to product management, just like on the front page. I'm like, how how did you know? And it tells you that it's based on your Google activity.

谈谈人们应该了解的AI模式，也许他们尚未真正理解这项技术的力量所在。

Talk about just what people should know about AI mode, maybe what they don't really understand about the power of this thing.

我可以告诉你，关于AI搜索和下一代搜索体验的思考主要包含三大组成部分。首先是AI概览，这是页面顶部快速呈现的AI功能，许多人已经见过，其发展速度非常迅猛。当你提出自然问题时，只需输入谷歌就能获得AI解答，这对用户帮助很大。其次是多模态功能。

I can tell you there's kind of three big components to what, how we can think about AI search and kind of the next generation of search experiences. You know, one is obviously AI overviews, which are the quick and fast AI you get at the top of the page many people have seen. And that's obviously been something growing very, very quickly. Says when you ask a natural question, you just put it into Google, you get this AI now, it's really helpful for people. The second is around multimodal.

这包括视觉搜索和镜头功能——另一个重要组件，通过谷歌应用中的摄像头实现，目前增长显著。而AI模式真正将这些功能整合起来，基于尖端模型打造端到端的先锋搜索体验，让你能向谷歌搜索提出任何问题。你可以来回对话，这种设计专为搜索场景优化。那么这意味着什么？

This is visual search and lens, that's the other big piece, you go to the camera in the Google app that's and seeing a bunch of growth. And then really with AI mode, it really brings it all together. It creates an end to end frontier search experience on state of the art models to really truly let you ask anything of Google search. You can go back and forth, you can have a conversation and it taps into and is specially designed for search. So what does that mean?

我认为最酷的功能之一是它能理解谷歌内部极其丰富的信息。例如谷歌购物图谱里有500亿件商品，商家每小时更新20亿次实时价格。地图中还有2.5亿个地点。

And one of the cool things that I think it does is it's able to understand all of this incredibly rich information that's within Google. So there's 50,000,000,000 products in the Google Shopping graph, for instance. They're updated 2,000,000,000 times an hour by merchants with live prices. Right? You have two fifty million places and maps.

你还能获取所有金融信息，更不用说整个互联网的上下文关联——既能获得背景信息，又能深入探索。所有这些都被整合进这个'大脑'，本质上成为与谷歌对话获取知识的途径。现在你可以提出任何问题，系统将运用全部信息尽可能提供最高质量的解答。

You have all of the, you know, finance information. I mean, just the and then not not to mention, you have the entire context of the web and how to connect to it so that you can get context, but then go deeper. And you kind of like put all of that into this brain that is effectively this way to talk to Google and get at this knowledge. That's really what you can do now. And so you can ask anything on your mind and it'll use all of this information to hopefully give you super high quality and informed information as best as we can.

你可以直接在google.com/ai使用该功能，它也已集成到核心体验中。我们宣布现在能轻松访问——你可以对AI概览进行追问直接进入AI模式，镜头功能也是如此：拍摄照片即可跳转AI模式进行后续提问。这正日益成为产品核心的集成化体验。

And you can use it directly at this google.com/ai, but it's also been integrated into our core experiences too. So, you know, we announced you can get to it really easily. You know, if you actually, you can ask follow-up questions of AI overviews right into AI mode now, same for the lens stuff, take a picture, takes it to AI mode, so can have this back, you can ask follow-up questions and go there too. So it's increasingly an integrated experience into the core part of the product.

我猜很多功能需要观察用户使用情况，但这些功能如何连接的愿景是什么？是保持AI模式在侧边栏、AI概览在顶部、多模态体验并存的现状，还是有计划未来进一步整合它们？

I imagine much of this is wait and see how people use it, but what's the vision of how all these things connect? Is the idea continue having this AI mode on the side, AI overviews at the top, and then this multimodal experience, or is there a vision of somehow pushing these together even more over time?

我认为这些功能有机会更紧密地结合，至少对于核心AI体验而言，这就是AI模式所代表的。但我认为它们与核心搜索产品是高度互补的。因此用户无需纠结提问渠道，只需使用谷歌。如今当你输入任何内容时，我们实际上已开始运用AI模式背后的强大能力——比如在AI概览中。所以你可以直接提出非常复杂的问题。

I think there's an opportunity for these to come closer together, and I think that's what AI mode represents, at least for the core AI experiences. But I think of them as very complimentary to the core search product. And so you should be able to not have to think about where you're asking a question ultimately, you just go to Google. And today, if you put in whatever you want, we're actually starting to use much of the power behind AI mode, right, in AI overviews. So you can just ask really hard.

你完全可以在谷歌搜索框输入长达五句话的问题。现在就可以试试。这会触发顶部的AI预览功能，之后你可以深入AI模式进行多轮对话。这就是它们的联动方式。

You could put a five sentence question right into Google search. You can try it. And then it should trigger AI at the top. It's preview, and then you can go deeper into AI mode and have this back and forth. So that's how these things connect.

相机功能同理。当你拍摄某物时——比如'这是什么植物'或'怎么买这双鞋'——系统会带你进入AI预览界面。若想深入探索，同样由AI模式驱动，实现多轮交互。

Same for your your camera. So if you take a picture of something, then what's this plant or how do I buy these shoes? It should take you to an AI little preview. And then if you go deeper, again, it's powered by AI mode. You can have that back and forth.

用户本不该为此费神，最终它应该呈现为统一简洁的产品体验。但显然这对我们是个新课题，因此我们选择以google.com/ai这样的直接入口启动，方便用户使用并给予反馈。

So you shouldn't have to like think about that. It should feel like a consistent, simple product experience ultimately. But obviously this is a new thing for us. And so we wanted to start it in a way that people could use and give us feedback, you know, with something like a direct entry point like google.com/ai.

最近我在播客中采访了Brian Balfour，他引用了Alex Rampell的观点让我印象深刻——初创企业就是在与巨头赛跑，看谁能先抢占分销渠道。听着你讲述这些，我不禁感叹：谷歌终于要发力了。虽然提不出具体问题，但感觉经过这么久的布局期，现在谷歌真的要全面进场了。

I recently had Brian Balfour on the podcast, and he showed this quote that's really stuck with me that I think about as you talk about all this. It was by Alex Rampell, this idea that startups is a game of getting distribution before incumbents can innovate fast enough, and it feels like you guys are finally there where it's like, oh, man. Now here comes Google. I don't know if I have a question here, but it just feels like this is there's been all this time for people to find distribution, now it's like, okay. Now Google is coming.

我们发现用户早就在谷歌提出这类需求了。当AI强大到能解决复杂计算题，或是解析化学多选题的家庭作业照片时——人们确实在这样做。基于我们的前沿模型，现在这个高度成熟的AI能帮用户处理越来越多事务。希望这能形成更自然的过渡入口，同时我们会持续优化易用性，毕竟用户已习惯特定的谷歌使用方式。

What we found is that people are asking these questions in Google, like they're trying to get this out of Google. And so if you can just have an AI that's powerful enough to answer a really hard calculation someone's trying to figure out, or like take a picture of like multiple choice homework question for a chemistry question, people are doing this. And so now that you have this really sophisticated AI that's based on our frontier models, we can just handle increasingly more and more stuff for people. And so hopefully that's like a more natural on ramp here. And then we're just gonna make it easy enough for people to use because these are new products and people are used to using Google in a specific way.

人们习惯输入关键词——我们常说要'关键词友好'，但其实完全可以用自然语言提问。最大的转变在于：用户开始提出冗长复杂的真实问题。比如'约会晚餐推荐，以下四家餐厅我都去过了'这种过去不敢想在谷歌搜索的问题。

They type in keywords. We talk people sometimes keyword ease, but you can actually use natural language in Google. That's the biggest shift we're seeing. People asking real long, hard, complex questions because you just don't think I can go to Google and type in like, a great place for a date night. I already went to these four restaurants.

我正在寻找户外用餐的地方，而我朋友有食物过敏。你可以把这个问题输入谷歌，我认为这正是我们热衷于继续为人们简化的事情。

I'm looking for outdoor dining and then my friend has this allergy. You could put that into Google and and I think that's the kind of thing that we're excited to to continue to to make easy for people.

有趣的是，我们兜兜转转又回到了过去。当年有Ask Jeeves，它的理念就是像问人类一样提问，然后给出优质答案。后来我们转向谷歌，变成了不需要讲究，直接输入关键词然后适应谷歌的偏好。现在又回到了'直接提问就能获得好答案'的模式。

It's interesting, we've come around to back in the day there was Ask Jeeves, which was this whole, just ask a question as if you're asking a human, and then it'll give you a really good answer. And then we moved into Google, just no, no, just type the thing you want and figure out how Google likes it. And now we're back to, okay, just ask your question and it'll give you a really good answer.

没错。Ashgibs在这方面出人意料地有先见之明。他们就像拥有超前理念的Material团队，早在时代之前就提出了现在大家追捧的东西。

Yeah. Ashgibs was surprisingly prescient on that. It's like, like had Material. They had something like way before its time that I think folks have rallied around now.

哇。你对AEO（Answer Engine Optimization）和GEO（Generative Engine Optimization）这种SEO进化形态的兴起怎么看？我猜你会说'只要创造优质内容别担心这些'，但要知道在这些答案中展现存在是门学问。你觉得人们应该考虑什么？

Oh man. What's your take on this whole rise of AEO, GEO, which is this kind of this evolution of SEO? I'm guessing your answer is gonna be just create awesome stuff and don't worry about it, but you know, there's a whole skill of getting to show up in these answers. Thoughts on what people should be thinking about here.

当然，我可以稍微透露些内部机制，因为理解原理确实能帮助人们决策。当我们的AI构建回答时，它会进行所谓的'查询扩散'——模型将谷歌搜索作为工具进行多轮查询。比如你问某款鞋子，它可能自动追加数十个关联查询在后台搜索，并向数据后端发起分析请求以获取实时信息。

Sure, I mean, can give you a little bit of under the hood, like how this stuff works, because I do think that helps people understand what to do. But you know, when our AI constructs a response, it's actually trying to, it does something called query fan out, where the model uses Google search as a tool to find, to do other querying. So maybe you're asking about specific shoes, it'll add up and append all of these other queries, like maybe dozens of queries and start searching basically in the background. And analysts make requests to data kind of back end. So if it needs real time information, it'll go do that.

所以本质上，虽然搜索主体不是人类，但确实发生了搜索行为。每次搜索都会匹配相应内容。如果你的网页设计得极具帮助性，再参考谷歌人工评分指南（这份经过几十年精心打磨的长文档，关于优质信息的标准，谷歌比任何人都研究得更透彻），核心就是：你是否满足了用户的真实需求？

And so at the end of the day, actually something's searching. Not a person, but there's searches happening and then each search is paired with content. And so if for a given search, your webpage is designed to be extremely helpful, and then you can look up Google's human rater guidelines and read, it's a very long document that's been thoughtfully crafted for decades now around what makes great information. This is something Google has studied more than anyone. And it's like, do you satisfy the user intent of what they're trying to get?

是否有可靠信源？是否标注引用？内容是原创还是重复了五百次的陈词？这些最佳实践依然适用，因为最终AI还是在做信息调研。核心信号始终是：这条信息是否真正解答了问题？

Do you have sources? Do you cite your information? Like, is it original or is it repeating things that have been repeated 500 times? And there's these best practices that I think still do largely apply because it's gonna ultimately come down to an AI is doing research and finding information. And a lot of the core signals, is this a good piece of information for the question?

它们依然有效。它们仍然极其有效且实用。这将产生一种响应，使你现在更有可能出现在那些体验中。我认为唯一需要建议的是，思考人们使用AI的目的。正如提到的，这是一个扩张的时刻，对吧？

They're still valid. They're still extremely valid and extremely useful. And that will produce a response where you're more likely to show up in those experiences now. I think the only thing I would give advice to would be, think about what people are using AI for. Mentioned this as an expansionary moment, right?

似乎现在人们提出了更多问题，尤其是关于建议或如何操作，或者更复杂的需求，而不是简单的事情。因此，如果我是一名创作者，我会思考人们使用AI来获取什么样的内容？然后我的内容如何才能最好地满足当前的需求。我认为这是一种非常具体的思考方式。

Like seems to be people are asking a lot more questions now, particularly around things like advice or how to, or more complex needs versus maybe more simple things. And so if I were a creator, I would be thinking what kind of content is someone using AI for? And then how could my content be the best for that given set of needs now. And I think that's a really tangible way of thinking about it.

你关于搜索方式的观点很有趣。当你使用它时，就像搜索了上千页内容或类似的东西。这是否与其他流行聊天机器人的核心机制不同，因为其他机器人不会在你提问时去搜索一堆网站？

It's interesting your point about how it goes in searches. When you use it, it's like searching a thousand pages or something like that. Is that just a different core mechanic to how other popular chatbots work, because the others don't go search a bunch of websites, as you're asking?

是的，这是我们为我们的AI独特设计的。它显然具备使用参数记忆的能力，以及思考和推理等模型的所有功能。但使其独特的一点是，我们专门为信息任务设计，我们希望它在信息需求方面做到最好，对吧？这就是谷歌的全部意义所在。那么它是如何找到信息的呢？

Yeah, this is something that we've done uniquely for our AI. It obviously has the ability to use parametric memory, and and, you know, thinking and reasoning and all the things a model does. But one of things that makes it unique for, you know, designing it specifically for informational tasks, like we wanted to be the best at informational needs, right? So Google's all about. And so how does it find information?

它如何知道信息是否正确？它如何检查自己的工作？这些都是我们内置在模型中的功能。因此，它拥有独特的谷歌访问权限。显然，它是谷歌搜索的一部分。

How does it know if information is right? How does it check its work? These are all things that we built into the model. And so there is a unique access to Google. Obviously it's part of Google search.

所以它利用谷歌搜索的信号，从垃圾内容（比如哪些内容可能是垃圾信息，我们可能不想在响应中使用）一直到最权威、最有帮助的信息。我们会链接到它，并解释说，根据这个网站，你可以查看该信息，然后你可能会自己去核实。这就是我们设计时的思考方式。

So it's Google search signals, everything from spam, like what's content that could be spam and we don't wanna probably use in a response all the way to, wow, this is like the most authoritative, helpful piece of information. We're gonna link to it, and we're gonna explain, hey. According to this website, you know, check out that information, and then you're gonna go, you know, probably go see that yourself. So that's how we've thought about designing this.

你已经参与了许多AI产品的开发，不仅仅是谷歌或Artifact和Instagram。你做了很多AI相关的工作。在构建AI产品的过程中，你学到了什么可能是人们真正不理解的东西，或者是什么在构建成功的AI产品时让你感到惊讶？

You've worked on a lot of AI products at this point, and it wasn't it's not just Google or Artifact and Instagram. You did a lot of AI stuff. What's something you've learned about building AI products that you find maybe people don't truly understand, maybe something that surprised you by building successful AI products?

我认为最近的一个现象非常明显，就在过去一两周内，AI交互界面的人性化程度变得如此之高，你几乎可以用自然语言来引导它。回想几个月前，要让AI完成特定任务还需要费尽周折，对吧？你得像念咒语般精心设计提示词，比如'假装你是教练'这类技巧，或者从技术层面进行后期训练——拿基础模型喂数据、调整权重参数才能实现复杂功能。

I think the the most recent one, and this is true, like something even within the last week or two, is that like, it's so obvious how human like the interface is becoming with how you can communicate and steer AI. I think it used to be even just months back that you had to do a lot of work to like, get the AI to do the thing you're trying to get it to do, right? You had to do incantations, had to prompt in a really specific way, like people have all these hacks like, hey, act like you're an you know, you're a coach and you do these things and you have to really push it or to use a tool, you know, more on the technical side, you had to do post training. Like, you had to take this foundational model and you had to show it data. You had to train it and actually update its weights to do more sophisticated things.

以前你告诉AI'这是API文档，遇到问题就调用这个接口'，它要么完全不懂，要么半懂不懂。但现在就像在跟工程师对话，你只需用日常语言下指令：'看，这是我的初创公司内部数据'...

Because it just, you'd tell it, Hey, here's like documentation for an API. If you ever have a problem, ping this API, here's the date. Like as if it's like an engineer that you had that you could talk to, and it would have no idea what to do with that, or it would have some idea and really wouldn't really do it. But increasingly, you can just use language to like almost if you were to write up an order, you you could be like, wow, like I here's a I'm a new startup. Here's my data internally.

'这些是对应的API接口、数据结构和URL地址，注意这类问题必须确保准确处理'——模型现在能理解这类自然指令了。

Here are the APIs to it. Here's the schema and the URL. Here's when to use it. By the way, make sure that if you get this kind of a question, you really make sure to get it right. And like, that'll end up doing a lot in the model.

模型已被编码成能自主判断：'这类问题需要更多推理资源'或'应该调用代码执行器连接指定API'。这种能力很新，将极大降低使用门槛——现在不需要繁重的微调就能获得顶尖效果。

Like the model has been now encoded to be able to say, okay, I'm gonna like use more reasoning or thinking budget for that kind of a question, or I'm gonna use tools or code to code use, code execution in order to connect to this API I'm told about. And that's a relatively new thing. So I think it's gonna open up a lot of this democratization of accessing these models and building incredible things because you don't even need to do a lot to to get the most sophisticated outcomes increasingly, I don't think you need to do a lot of this heavy duty fine tuning.

这让我想起最近播客嘉宾Nesreen Shengal，这位前谷歌Meet产品经理谈到：他们成功的关键是把视频会议体验对标真人会议，而非单纯优化技术参数。你描述的AI演进方向异曲同工——让交互就像和人交谈。

Makes me think about it. Have this recent guest, Nesreen Shengal, on the podcast. She was a PM at Google. She worked on Google Meet. She was a delight PM working on and making products more delightful.

虽然这个目标看似显而易见，但细想很有意思。不如我们跳出这个话题，聊聊你职业生涯更宏观的经验？毕竟如开场介绍的，你打造过众多成功产品...

And she talked about the reason Google Meet did so well and is now feels like it's killing Zoom is they compared the experience of Google Meet to a human meeting, versus making it the best possible video conference it's, let's make this as good as a human experience. And that's interesting what you're talking about how that's almost the goal here with AI, is just make you feel like you're just talking to a person. Exactly. Might be obvious, but think about that. Okay, let me zoom out and about just, and let's talk about just broader lessons you've learned over the course of your career, you've built a lot of very successful products, which I've shared in the intro at this point.

也有很多失败案例呢，我们的产品组合可是相当全面。

Many, many not. Also on the other side of the spectrum, we got the whole portfolio.

好的，完美。我们会讨论其中的一些内容。在我们准备这次对话时，我问过你，你想在这次对话中传达的一个重点是什么？你认为对产品构建者来说，听到什么会真正帮助他们打造更成功的产品？你用了这个短语——‘体现不懈改进’。

Okay, perfect. We'll talk about some of that. So I asked you as we're getting ready for this conversation, what's one thing you wanted to get across in this conversation? What's something you think would be really helpful for product builders to hear to help them build more successful products? And you used this phrase, embodying relentless improvement.

你能详细谈谈吗？这是什么意思？为什么这一点如此重要？

Can you just talk about that? What does that mean? Why is this so important?

当然。我认为你需要成为两件事的具体体现。一是‘不懈’，即全力以赴，但始终朝着积极产出的方向努力。第二是‘让事物变得更好’。你总是让事物变得更好。

Of course. I mean, I think that you need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things. One is just relentlessness, like just complete effort, but is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity. And then the second is make things better. You always make things better.

你永远不会满足。我想这实际上源于一个有点有趣的故事。当时我在Instagram，第一次参加大型全员会议时，他们有一个破冰活动，要求用一个词描述自己。在后台，我快速发短信问我妻子：‘嘿，用一个词形容我。’

You're never content. And I think this actually came out of a story, little bit of a funny story where, I was at Instagram at the time doing a big, you know, all team meeting when I first, and they had this icebreaker. It's like, what's one word to describe yourself? And so in the back stage area, I like texted my wife really quick. Like, hey, just one word to describe me.

她脑海中第一个浮现的词。她回复‘不满足’。我在后台忍不住笑了，一方面有点受伤，因为期待的是‘有爱’、‘体贴’之类的好词。然后我看到她的消息气泡显示还有下文，她接着写了一段深思熟虑的话，大意是：‘不是说你总不开心，而是你希望世界变得更好。你被一种深层的渴望驱动着。’

First thing that comes to your mind. And she just wrote back dissatisfied. And I was kinda chuckling in the in the back room because I was first of all, like, kind of offended because I was like, it's not like loving, caring, like like something good and then she and I saw like her little bubble thing like she's like, okay, there's more and then she wrote me this like really thoughtful thing that was like, you know, it's not that just unhappy. It's like you're you want the world to be better. You're driven out of a deep desire.

这种对世界现状的不满感驱使你想要改进，并为此不断努力。后来我反思这一点，直到我们开发了多款产品——有些表现不佳，有些取得巨大成功，如今被数十亿人使用——才意识到关键差异之一（当然产品条件和运气也很重要）在于：成功的产品始终贯穿着‘只要再优化两步，我们终会成功’的精神。正如我之前提到的，这种持续积累的努力最终会达到临界点，使产品真正对人们有用，因为你永远是自己作品最严厉的批评者，本质上也是房间里对自身工作最不满意的人。我认为这非常有意义。

It's it's that you feel the sense of dissatisfaction with what the world gives you. You wanna make it better, and you're pushed and motivated to do that. And I thought about that after, and it wasn't until we built a bunch of products, some that didn't do well, some that have had a lot of really large success, now billions of people use them, where it felt like one of the big differences, obviously a lot of it is just the conditions of the product and a little bit of luck here and there too. But for the things that went well, there was always a spirit of just we're going to get it eventually if we just make two more moves to make it to make it better and then eventually, as I talked about before I really had a conversation, you get this tipping point where it just kind of tips over into being net useful to people because of just that amount of compounding effort that you put into something because you're just always so you're the harshest critic and the most dissatisfied person in the room about your own work, basically. And I think that's really meaningful.

另外，托尼·法德尔十年前在TED演讲中分享过一个精彩的故事（标题类似《像孩子一样思考》，可搜索查看）。他谈到随着我们长大成人（我有两个小孩，所以常思考这点），我们对一切习以为常，全盘接受世界呈现的样子。

And and there's this other other incredible story that Tony Fadell told at on a TED talk, like, ten years ago. You can look it up. I think it's something around think younger as a title, and he talks about what it means that that as we grow up and age and become grown ups I have two little kids, so that's something I think about a lot. We habituate to everything. Like, we accept and we tolerate what the world gives us everywhere.

而我们只是说，哦，这有点糟糕。哦，好吧。然后我们耸耸肩，继续前进。但如果你不这样做，而是问为什么？比如，这太糟糕了。

And we just go, oh, that kinda sucks. Oh, well. And we shrug our shoulders and we move on. But if you don't do that and you ask, why? Like, this sucks.

比如，为什么我要忍受这个，我怎样才能让它变得更好？他有一个关于去杂货店购物的精彩故事。他花了大约十分钟讲述这个故事，感觉就像他在谈论买一个水果，比如李子或桃子，以及它上面贴着的那个标签。你知道吗？就是那个标签。

Like, why am I, like, tolerating this and how do I make it better? He has this incredible story about going grocery shopping. And he goes on for, like, ten minutes about this story almost, it felt like, where he talks about getting a piece of fruit, like a plum or a peach, and how it has that sticker on it. You know? And it's got that sticker.

是谁贴了那个标签，然后当你回到家，你把水果从袋子里拿出来，准备吃它。你非常兴奋。你把拇指伸到标签下面。它刺穿了果肉。他详细描述了它是如何刺穿水果的果肉的。

And who put that sticker there and then how you when you get home, you take your fruit out of your bag, you're ready to eat it. You're all excited. You stick your thumb under the sticker. It punctures the flesh. He goes into just incredible detail about how it punctures the flesh of the of the fruit.

标签被撕掉了。现在水果在流血。然后你，比如，弹掉标签。标签，比如，没扔进垃圾桶。你，比如，弯腰捡起来。

It the sticker comes off. Now the fruit's bleeding. Then you, like, flick the sticker. The sticker, like, misses the garbage. You, like, bend over and pick it up.

你把标签放回去，我当时想，哇，这体现了这种心态，就是，为什么这个在这里？怎么能让它变得更好？我认为最好的产品人，这个领域最好的思考者，他们就是这样思考的，在我看来。

You like put the sticker back in and I was like, wow, like that is embodying this mentality, of like, just why is this here? How can this be better? And I think the best product people, the best thinkers in the space, that's that's how they think, in my opinion.

我想在你参与的许多产品中，有很多这样的例子。有没有一个例子让你印象深刻，作为这种思维方式实际运作良好并带来巨大成果的好例子？

I imagine there are many examples of you doing this in the many products you worked on. Is there one that comes to mind as a good example of this, inaction of this actually working really well and delivering something really huge?

老实说，一个很大的例子是AI模式的工作。比如，我们发现在AI概述中，人们试图问更难的问题，而我们无法回答其中的许多问题，或者AI概述根本没有显示。所以，我们一群人坐在一起，我们想，为什么不能为所有事情都这样做？比如，为什么我们不能用，而不是说，哦，我们不需要解决那个问题。或者，你知道，那不是接下来最需要解决的问题。

I mean, honestly, like a big thing is working on AI mode. Like, think a lot of it was, you know, we saw in AI overviews that people were trying to ask harder questions, and we weren't able to answer a bunch of them, or AI overviews just didn't show up. And so, you know, a bunch of us sat around and we're like, why can't you just do this for everything? Like, why can't we use, you know, instead of saying, oh, we don't need to solve for that. Or, you know, that's not something that's like in the most addressable next thing.

就像，我们实际上在查询流中看到人们在查询末尾加上'AI'这个词，试图让AI去做某些事情。我们看着这种情况就觉得，这太荒谬了。我们需要在这里构建一些东西。这就是一个主要动机——真正识别出用户的问题，代表用户感到非常不满。

It's like, we actually saw people in the query stream putting the words AI at the end of their queries because they're trying to like get the AI to like do the thing. And so we would look at that and just like, this is ridiculous. We need to build something here. And that was a big motive. That was one of the big motivations was actually identifying that like user problem, being very disgruntled on behalf of the user.

就好像，我们每天都在让用户失望。我们并没有真正帮助他们更好地理解事物，因此我们要为此构建一个完整的解决方案。顺便说一句，构建所有这些非常困难。但很明显，这就是我们需要做的。

Like, am we're just failing the user every day. We are not helping them actually get their thing, like, kind of better understood, and we're gonna go build a whole thing because of it. Because that's hard to do, by the way, to build all of that. But it just was so obvious that that's what we needed to do.

大致有两类人。假设一类人只想把事情做得更好，创造惊艳的体验——你们会做得很棒。另一类人则专注于推动指标、达成目标、完成KPI。我知道你们没说的是'只管工作'。

There's kind of two buckets of people, let's say. Hypothetically, one bucket is just make things better, make amazing experiences. You're gonna do great. There's another bucket that's like drive metrics, drive goals, hit our KPIs. I know what you're you're not saying is just work.

比如，专注于持续改进事物，毫不留情地优化一切。你如何看待这种重叠——既要提升体验，又要兼顾战略和愿景？

Like, work on things making just make things better, relentlessly make things better. How do you just think about, I guess, that overlap of, okay, makes things better, but also here's what we really here's the strategy. Here's the vision.

我认为它们必须是交叉的。我的思考方式是：你实际上始于一个问题，或者其反面——一个愿景。它们是相连的。大多数伟大公司和产品都源于某个问题，但从中会诞生更好的解决方案。

How do you think about as an or. Like, think they have to be, like, intersected because basically, the way to think the way I think about it is you actually start with, you know, a problem or the inverse of that, which is a vision. But they're connected. It's like people most great companies, most great products come out of a problem. But out of the problem becomes like, here's a better way.

如果有人站出来说：'与其忍受这个糟糕的现状，我们何不这样做？'这种不满和追求更好的渴望会催生创新。但最终你需要通过数据验证是否走在正确轨道上——比如产品首版发布后，用户是否喜欢？

What if you instead of this crappy thing or way of living or thing that we all tolerate and accept, you know, some entrepreneur comes up and says, what if we did this the thing? And then it's what comes out of this dissatisfaction and this this sense of better that you need to make things better. But then you're gonna build. And at the end of the day, you need your instrumentation to know if you're on the right track. And that's where you bring tools like, okay, you build your first version of the product, do people like it?

每个产品都会经历这个过程。通常你会通过用户访谈来理解反馈，同时加入分析工具。比如观察J曲线——第7天、30天、90天的用户留存率，是趋于平稳还是持续流失？

It's like, and then each product goes through its journey. So the way you understand people like it is you scrutinize typically, you talk to people, but you also add some analytical tools there. You might look at something like a J curve. So this is the retention, the percentage of people still using the product day seven, day thirty, day ninety, and does it flatten? Or do people just drip out of there?

随着时间的推移，它只是不再让人兴奋，如果时间线足够长，使用量就会归零。如果无法突破这一点，你就完蛋了。对吧？然后，好吧，有些人在做这件事。好吧。

Like over time, it's it's just not exciting people and that would go to zero if on a long enough timeline, no one's gonna use it. You don't get past that, you're toast. Right? Then, okay, some people are doing it. Okay.

很好。我们需要更多人参与进来，而且它必须足够好，让人们愿意谈论它，然后它就会增长。所以这是另一个门槛。然后还有一个问题，那就是，这东西到底能做多大？是个小玩意吗？

Great. We need more people to do it, and it needs to be good enough that people talk about it, and then it grows. And so that's another gate. And then there's another one, which is like, well, how big can this get actually? Is it a small thing?

是个中等规模的东西吗？我认为大多数公司都怀有做大的抱负，但无法一开始就做大。每个人都必须经历这个过程。没有哪个产品是一开始就很大的。即使是那些迅速壮大的产品，哪怕一周内就迅速崛起，它们最初也是从小做起的。

Is it a medium thing? And I think most companies, like you have like an aspiration of being big, but you can't start big. Everyone's gotta go through that journey. No product has started big. Even ones that get big really quickly, even after even like a week quickly, they had something.

甚至在内部，它们也是从小规模开始的，可能最初只有100人左右。因此我认为必须关注指标，才能知道是否在做正确的事。另一方面，当你运营一个大型项目时，你需要指标作为指南。比如，假设我们的核心指标本周下降了5%。

And then even internally, they started small, they started small with 100 to 100 people. And so you have to be metrics focused, I think, in order to know if you're doing the right thing. And then the other thing is on the other side of the spectrum, you're running a big thing. And there you need metrics to be your guide. Like if your product is, let's say, okay, let's say our core metrics down 5% this week.

这时候就要问：发生了什么问题？对吧？所以你需要深入进行根本原因分析，找出问题所在——是某个地区的问题？还是特定设备的问题？

It's like, well, what's going on? Right? And so you need to be really close to root cause analysis there and say, well, actually turns out that it's an issue. Is it in a region? Is it on a device?

是特定人群的问题？还是使用场景的问题？问题究竟出在哪里？当你定位到问题后，理解了症结所在，就能回到改进的轨道上：好吧，我要解决这个问题，就像对症下药一样。

Is it in a demographic? Is it in a use case? Where is my problem lie? And then when you get to it, you understand the problem, and then you can, this improvement thing comes back where it's like, okay, I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna fix that thing. I'm gonna, what's the treatment for that disease?

解决了之后，你就又回到了增长模式。所以你需要这种机制，始终要审视自己运作的系统是什么，我的仪表盘（衡量标准）是什么？就像飞行员需要知道飞机是否在正确飞行。但这些指标不会直接告诉你具体该怎么做。

And you get and then you're back to growth again. And so you kinda need this, and you always are looking at what's this what's the system that I'm working on? And what what are my instruments? I'm a pilot to know if this thing is going and flying correctly. But then it doesn't tell you exactly what to do.

你必须自己思考如何改进它。我只能为你指引一小部分方向。

You have to think for yourself how to make it better. I can just show you a little bit of the way.

我很欣赏他们刚刚就如何优先排序和选择有效内容进行了大师课讲解。我想稍微跑个题。说到那些表现极佳并迅速走红的产品，Instagram的Stories功能，是你参与构建并推出的。这在当时是个颇具争议的产品发布，因为它基本上借鉴了Snapchat做得非常出色的功能，然后将其引入Instagram，这对Snapchat来说可不是什么好事。现在时隔多年，我特别好奇想听听那段时期的故事，回顾那个决定，你们当时讨论了什么，如何决定推进这个项目，以及任何你回想起来觉得值得分享的事情。

I love they just gave a masterclass on just how to prioritize and pick what's working. I want to go on a quick tangent. Speaking of products that have done really well and become really big, Stories, you build and launch Stories at Instagram. It's quite an infamous product launch back in the day, was quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well, and then like hey let's bring it to Instagram, and it was not great for Snapchat. Now that it was so long ago, and just so far in the past, I'm so curious just to hear about that time, reflecting on just that decision, what you guys talked about, how you decided to go ahead with that and anything just, I don't know, you think about looking back at that.

我认为那次发布有几个非常重要的经验教训。之后我们还推出了Reels、一系列直接消息功能的更新、信息流排序算法等。大约在2016到2021年间，我在那里的时候，有大量新产品被开发出来。在所有这些都是，尤其是Stories中，一个有趣的教训是：你必须真正理解用户为何使用你的产品，并识别何时某个问题关乎产品存亡，因为可能已经有更好的形式或不同的方式在处理某些事情上取得了成功，你需要弄清楚这对你意味着什么。因为并非所有伟大的事物都会由你发明。

I think there's a couple of really important lessons from that launch. And I mean, we went on afterwards to launch reels, a bunch of updates to direct messaging, feed ranking. I mean, there was this huge era there when I was there between, you know, 2016 and 2021 or so, where just so many new products got built. And I think an interesting lesson in all of those, and particularly in stories was you have to really understand why someone uses your product, and know when something is actually an existential question, because there's just a better format or a different way of doing something that has worked and works, and you need to figure out what that might mean for you. Because not every great thing is gonna be invented by you.

但我认为很多这类事物可以成为你能赋予自身特色的形式，你需要从世界和正在发生的事情中学习，以便你的产品始终能为用户提供最佳体验。对于Stories，我们审视了Instagram，它的核心是什么？归根结底是分享生活和与人联系。如果有种方式能降低这种压力——比如没有点赞，或者只是短暂存在的格式，并且因为全屏体验而非常适合移动端优化——那真是个极好的形式，得为Snapchat发明它点赞。

But I think that a lot of these things are, you know, the relic that they can become formats that you can make your own, and you need to learn from the world and what's happening out there in order for your product to always give the best thing to its users. And so for stories, we looked at Instagram, what's the point of Instagram? It is sharing your life and connecting with people ultimately. And if there's a way to do that, that lowers the pressure because it doesn't have likes, or it's just a femoral format and it's optimized well for mobile because it's this full screen experience. Like it's a really great format and kudos to Snapchat for inventing it.

我们并不认为这是个阻碍，觉得必须做出类似Instagram照片时钟的东西。实际上，早期有过尝试将核心的Instagram信息流变成短暂形式的想法。但当你试图混合一个在用户心中根深蒂固、外观特定的核心产品，并扭曲它以做新事情时，通常不是个好主意。所以我们知道需要做些新东西，而且它显然对产品核心功能至关重要，能自然融入。但问题是，如何让它成为我们自己的？

You know, we didn't think of that as like a deterrent that we had to go make like, you know, Instagram photo clock. And actually there were early versions of this idea you try to take the core Instagram feed and make it ephemeral. And whenever you try to mix a core product that's very cemented in someone's mind and physically looks a specific way, and you're trying to contort it to do something new, it's usually a bad recipe. And so we knew we needed to do something new and then it was so clearly was critical to the core essence of what the product could do, could fit in naturally. But the question was, how do we make it our own?

我们如何在此基础上构建？如果你回想，我们做了很多事情让它具有Instagram特色。例如，它有不同创意工具，像霓虹绘图和人们喜爱的复杂滤镜。我们也讨论了用户的不满。很多时候，人们想用主相机拍下某物，然后上传到Instagram保存，希望它是高质量、高分辨率的照片，因为这是个记忆。

And how do we build on this? And so if you think, there were a bunch of things that we did that made it Instagram. And so for example, it had different creative tools and it had things like neon drawing and these like really sophisticated filters that people loved. We also looked at this talk about being dissatisfied. Like people took, a lot of times they would they want their main camera to take a picture of something, and then they wanna upload it to Instagram because they wanna save it and they want it be in a very high quality, high resolution photo because it's a memory.

而当时的Snapchat不允许上传照片，你必须使用Snap相机。所以我们做了一系列决定，比如为什么不让人们上传他们的照片？这回到了不满的点——那确实令人沮丧。

And Snapchat at the time didn't allow you to upload photos. It was like, you have to use a Snap camera. And so we made a bunch of decisions like that where why don't you just let people upload their their photo? Like, what like, why like, this is the dis back to the dissatisfied point. Like, that's frustrating.

你知道吗？还有另一种情况是你无法暂停正在消费的故事内容。你不能暂停它，它只会一直播放直到结束，因为它就像一种转瞬即逝的东西，而你希望创造安全感。就像，为什么不能让它慢一点，它走得太快了。

You know? Or there's another example where you couldn't pause if you, like, were consuming a story. You couldn't pause it. It just would, like, go through and be done because it was, like, this ephemeral thing, and you wanted to create safety. It's like, why can't you just like, it's it goes by too fast.

所以我们添加了这个暂停功能。虽然是个小改动，但现在你只需按下手指就能暂停故事。正是这一系列细微调整让故事功能真正有了Instagram的味道。这不是简单照搬其他产品，结果证明这个改动效果出奇地好。

So we added this pause. It's such a small thing, but you put your finger down to pause the story now. And so there were a whole set of those things that were shipped that made stories feel Instagram. It wasn't like you just had some other thing. And then it turns out that worked incredibly well.

以至于团队里有人提到，当时他们没意识到，但感觉就像页面顶部缺少了故事尺寸的空白区域，而这个功能以某种奇妙的方式完善了产品。我认为这是个重要的经验教训。

And so so much to the to the fact that someone on the team mentioned that they always felt like, at the time, they didn't realize it, but it was almost like it was missing the story size holes at the top of the page, and it completed the product in some weird way for them. And so that was an, I think, an important lesson.

Instagram当时确实受到很多创始人的抨击，他们说你们就是偷了这个创意，这很糟糕。你们内部是怎么应对的？就是觉得必须这么做，要专注于股东利益，推动产品增长，有时候事情就是这样发展的。

Instagram definitely got a lot of hate for that moment from a lot of founders. It was just like, hey you guys just stole this idea, and that sucks. How did you guys just deal with that internally? Was just, this is, you know, we gotta do this, we gotta focus on our shareholders, and grow this thing, and that's how it goes sometimes.

我认为我们更关注的是用户，那些热爱Instagram的人。如果剥夺他们轻松分享照片并让内容消失的功能，那才是不公平。说到底，我们只是想增加这种人们最终会接受的格式。就像信息流——记得我们推出时也讨论过——Facebook可能创造了现代信息流，但现在每个产品都有自己的信息流。

I mean I think it's more that we're focused on our users, and the people who are loving Instagram, and it's denying them the opportunity to have an easy way to just share a photo, and like have the thing go away. You know, I mean, that's ultimately what we were trying to add. At the end of the day, that is a format that people adopt. In the same way that, think about feeds, you know, think we talked about this at the time too when we shipped it. Like, you know, Facebook probably created the modern feed, but there's a feed for every single product.

对吧？领英有信息流，DoorDash也有信息流。这些功能很快成为核心基础模块和内容格式。说到底，如果不为用户使用场景打造最佳产品，就等于剥夺用户享受更好产品的机会。而Instagram的使用方式本就与众不同。

Right? And there's a LinkedIn feed, and there's a there's a feed for DoorDash. You know, it's it's not like like these things become core primitives quickly and formats. And then at the end of the day, you're kind of just robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product if you're not making the best possible product for your use cases. And for Instagram, was used differently.

人们使用Instagram的方式确实与其他产品不同。随着时间的推移，我们发现WhatsApp、Messenger等众多社交产品都有类似功能，但实际使用方式各不相同，这非常有趣。

Like people use Instagram differently than they use other products. And it turns out that there were these experiences in WhatsApp and in Messenger and in many other social products over time, and they all were used differently actually, which is fascinating.

所以我想谈的另一件事是，你接手了两个已经表现非常出色的产品——Instagram和Google。在Instagram方面，实现了变革性的增长与提升；而Google正处于你推动的改进与增长过程中。很少有人能在接手现有产品后使其显著增长，很多人都渴望做到这一点，尤其是对那些已存在很久的产品。

So something else I wanna talk about is you came into two products that were already doing really well, Instagram and Google, and on the Instagram side, a transformative growth and improvement. Google is happening, we're in the middle of the improvement and growth you're driving. Not a lot of people get to do this where they go into an existing product, make it grow significantly. A lot of people want to do this. They have a product that's been around for a long time.

嘿，我们如何让这个产品增长并更成功？关于接手现有产品后，发现重大机遇并实现曲棍球杆式增长，你有什么特别的经验吗？因为这是每个人都想做到的。

Hey, do we make this grow and be more successful? Is there anything specifically that you've learned about just coming into an existing product, figuring out where the big opportunities are, then just like hockey sticking growth? Because this is what everyone wants to do.

这里有几条经验。首先——顺便说一句，第一条经验是要永远保持谦逊，因为能参与对人们有如此影响力的产品是极其难得的。我把产品比作高尔夫：你永远离打偏只有一杆之遥，一旦自满就会失手。

There's a couple lessons here. And I I think by the way, the first lesson is to be humble always because it's extremely incredible to be able work on products that have such impact on people. And I I I view product like golf. Like, you're always one stroke away from shanking. And like, as soon as you think you're good, you're not.

其实你什么都不知道。世界变化太快，你必须始终以用户群体和外界人群为师，向他们学习。所以我首先考虑的是：人们为什么使用这个产品？增长点在哪里？即使在大产品或成熟复杂系统中，通常也有一部分在增长，一部分成熟，还有部分可能在衰退或增长缓慢。

Like, you don't know anything. Like the world changes quickly. You have to always be a servant to your user base and the people that are out there, and learn from them. So the first thing I always do and think about is you get in touch in terms of like, why are people using this product and where are the areas of growth? And so usually even in a big product or a mature, in a complex system, there's a part of it that's growing, there's a part of it that's mature, there could be a part of it that's declining or isn't growing as much.

Instagram就经历了从公开分享、大规模广播式帖子到更轻量级形式（如动态和私信）的重大转变。你必须观察这些变化，因为世界和人们的需求每月每年都在变。首先要理解人们想从这个产品获得什么？它的本质是什么？我常思考'待完成工作'理论框架——克莱顿·克里斯坦森《与运气竞争》是我最爱的相关书籍——你必须深入研究因果关联。

Certainly in Instagram, there's been a big shift over the years of sharing into public, very large broadcast posts and feed into these more lightweight formats like stories and DM, actually private sharing as well. And so you have to observe that because every month, every year, the world changes, people's needs change. And so first thing you do is you kind of get a sense of what do people want out of this product? What's its true essence? I think a lot about this jobs to be done framework, which is one of the things that I'm a big fan of, and Clayton Christensen's book on Competing Against Luck is one of my favorite books on this topic, where you have to really be a student of causation.

用户为什么使用这个产品？他们在用它做什么？想达成什么目标？这通常会引向更宏大的下一阶段构想，并打破'必须用现有工具解决问题'的思维定式。

Why is someone using this product? Like what are they doing with it? And what are they trying to get done with it? And that usually leads you to kind of bigger next stage ideas. And it removes this belief that you need to solve the problem with the current tools.

以Instagram为例，原本需要制作方形照片，但后来要为用户做得更多。在Google的案例中，核心搜索体验需要某种微妙调整——当用户试图用Google解答复杂问题时，什么才是对他们最有效的方式？

So in the Instagram version, it was like, you have to make a square photo, do more for people, right? Like that would be like how you increment the product. Or in Google's example, there's like something very specific with the core search experience that needs to change, it's like a subtle tweak. You know, you have to kind of think, well, what's the big thing someone's trying like someone's trying to ask a really hard question out of Google. Like, what's the best way to do that for them?

因此这促使你更多地从第一性原理思考，这是最根本的基础。一旦基于第一性原理，你就会发现，这个新事物可能带来转变，在诸多方面都是全新的，比如AI版的Google、Stories和Reels，它们本质上都是世界上的新形式，人们对此有更多期待和需求。通过添加这些功能，它们成为补充而非替代。就像Stories没有取代Instagram，而是扩展了它，AI也是如此。

And so it makes you think more first principled, and that's the first basis of this. And then once from first principles, you're like, oh, this newer thing, and it could be a shift, could be a new in many ways, the AI version of Google and stories and reels, they're kind of similar in that they're new formats in the world that people are expecting and wanting more of. And by adding them, it becomes complimentary, not replacement. And in both cases, like stories didn't replace Instagram. It became it expanded in the same way we're seeing for AI.

有趣的是，接下来你会思考如何将其融入自己的领域。面对一个成熟的大型产品，我发现最佳方式就是让它成为补充，成为体验的核心部分，但同时明确界定为具有独特属性的独立事物。人们习惯于空间思维。

And so what's interesting is then you think, well, how do I bring that into my world? Right? You have this big, mature product. And the best way I've seen is by making it complimentary, having it be a core part of the experience, but clearly defined as a distinctive thing that has its own attributes associated with it. People think spatially.

如果你有一个信息流，里面有带图片的孔洞，人们会期待这些孔洞具备功能。如果你在其中加入一个带有时钟的孔洞，它第二天就会消失，或者无法点赞，或者运作方式与其他部分不同，人们就会感到极度困惑。这很糟糕。因此添加产品功能必须谨慎，既要保持连贯性又要体现差异。比如Stories就保持了相似的美学风格。

So if you have a feed and you have holes with pictures, they expect those holes to do things. And so if you'd make one of those holes with a little clock and that one goes away the next day, or you can't like it, or it operates differently than the other parts of your feed, something's super confusing for people. It sucks. And so you have to add product carefully, but it needs to feel coherent, but different. So stories, you know, it has similar aesthetic.

它显然以同样方式使用你的相册，支持DM分享，在系统中运作，但拥有不同的基础特性。就像Google AI，它是可以随时弹出的全页体验，支持后续对话。每个用例都需要符合用户的特定预期。

It obviously uses your camera roll in the same way. It works so you can share it in DM. It works in the system, but it has a different primitive in the same way Google AI, it's a full page experience that you can pop out now. You can have follow-up conversation with it, right? People have a set of expectations you need to snap to for those use cases.

然后你需要不断学习如何让这些新产品在你的领域发挥最佳效果。绝不能简单照搬成功案例，必须根据你的用户、预期和产品使用场景来调整。我看到最常见的失败就是假设某个系统适用的方案直接适用于你的领域——但其他系统的用户群体、产品预期可能完全不同。必须尊重这种差异，思考我们能借鉴什么。这就是我观察到的产品发展方法论。

And then you are constantly learning how to best make these new products work within your world. And you never just wanna snap in something that's working, you have to make it work for your users, your expectations, and what people are trying to do with your product. It's actually one of things I see people fail on the most is they assume something working for one system will work in your world, but someone else's system is on totally, like the types of users they have, the consumer expectation of that product, that's totally different set of expectations. So you have to kind of respect that and say, what can we learn from that and bring it here? So that was, I guess you were to talk about the kind of the method that I've seen now or twice, I guess, that's kind of how these products have developed.

我太喜欢这个话题了。这让我想到人们总是在优化现有事物和押注新事物之间寻找平衡。你有很多成功押注全新领域的案例。在团队架构和资源分配上，比如面对现有的优秀Google体验，你会如何权衡投入改进和尝试创新的比例？

I love this topic. It makes me think about just this balance people always try to find between optimizing something they've already got versus trying to take a big bet on something. And you've done, you've had so many examples where you've taken a big bet on something totally new and it's worked out incredibly well. Have You kind of just a heuristic in how you structure teams and prioritize across, okay, we have amazing Google experience today, what percentage of resources go into improving that versus trying something totally new?

这方面我认为分析性系统思维很有帮助，因为你本质上是在创造价值，需要量化评估。当你看到增长曲线时，要理解用户为何越来越喜欢这个产品。新产品会经历成长期，最终走向成熟。你可以用同样方式分析产品套件和功能模块——有些功能快速增长，有些则不然。每个系统都会到达边际收益递减的临界点，这时即使投入50人也收效甚微。

That's one where I actually do feel like the more analytical, like systematic thinking helps a lot, because you kind of, you're trying to produce value in the world, you wanna quantify it some way. And so if you're seeing this growth curve, and you're trying to understand why people are using it more and more to liking this product, and when procs are young, they grow. And then eventually things mature. And you can break out product suites and different features of products all along the same way, certain features that are growing fast, other features that are not. And you get to these points of just diminishing marginal return in every system, where it feels like you could put 50 people on this project.

比如，这并不会显著改变现状。因此，部分关键在于团队自下而上的思考，认真评估这项投资的预期价值，并意识到何时其回报开始趋近于零或边际效益递减。当这种情况发生时，通常伴随着某些根本性变化——无论是外部用户期望的改变、市场饱和，还是其他需要调整的情况。这时你就需要寻找下一个增长驱动力或一组驱动力。此时更需要回归基本原理，尝试这些新事物。

Like, it's just not gonna dramatically move the needle. And so part of it is this bottoms up thing with your own team being really thoughtful about what is the expected value of that investment and knowing when it's starting to approach zero or diminishing marginal return. And then when that happens, these are these moments that usually coincide with something fundamental changing, either people's expectations externally, market saturation, there's something happening where you need to adjust. And you then find your next growth driver or set of drivers. And that's where you need to go more first principled and try these new things more.

当你成功启动新项目时，就会形成一个新的小型增长引擎，然后安排人员跟进并优化它。因为每次改进都能带来显著收益——可能是10%、20%或4%的提升——显然仍存在巨大价值和提升空间，能让产品更好，这些都能从数据中体现。这就是我之前提到的工具化过程，它成为你判断决策是否正确的指南。否则，如果缺乏明确目标和量化标准，就很难知道所做之事是否对他人有意义。毕竟产品可以不断改进，但用户真的在使用吗？

And then when you land a new thing, that creates this new little growth engine, and then you put people on it and you optimize it because you get the you're getting big like, each change is, like, 10% win, 20% win, 4% win, and it's clearly, like, still has so much value and headroom and and to make it better for people, and you can see that in the data. And and so that's becoming I talked about this instrumentation. It becomes your your guide for for knowing if you're making good calls. Otherwise, if you don't know where you're headed and you don't have a goal of what you're trying to do in more quantitatively, it's really hard to know if the thing you're doing is mattering to anyone. Because you'll just, I mean, they can make the product better, but like, does anyone using it?

有人在意吗？还是我们只是在自我陶醉？归根结底，你希望对人产生影响，这才是最重要的。

Does anyone care? Or are we just congratulating ourselves? Like, ultimately, you wanna have impact on people, and that's what matters.

所以本质上是在追踪每个新产品的S曲线，判断是否进入平台期，以及是否该在其他领域加大投入。

So it says essentially tracking s curves on every new product understanding if you're in the plateau and if it's time to invest heavily somewhere else.

没错。

Yes.

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那是0rkes.i0/lenny。或许谈谈AI模式的演进历程会很有帮助，就像它是如何出现的，以及你们采取哪些步骤让它如今成为谷歌搜索体验中如此重要的一部分。这是从何时开始的？你们如何判定值得押注于此？又是通过哪些步骤逐步扩大其应用范围的？

That's 0rkes.i0/lenny. Maybe it would be helpful to talk about the journey of AI mode, just like how it emerged and the steps that you took to now it's just such a big part of the Google search experience. When did this start? How did you decide this is worth betting on? And then what were kind of the steps to get it further and further rolled out?

我认为这实际上可能始于更早的AI概览功能，那是我们首次将生成式AI引入搜索领域。在那个阶段，我们注意到用户会提出这类问题，许多人实际上尝试用自然语言进行搜索。于是我们思考如何提供有用的上下文、深度链接，并打造一个适合谷歌的AI。这就是我们最初为人们实现这些功能的模型版本。通过持续构建并根据观察——发现人们希望更直接接触它并能追问后续问题——我们意识到需要一种新的交互模式。

I mean, I think it probably started earlier on with AI overviews actually, which was the first way we brought kind of generative AI to search. And in that world, we noticed that people were asking these questions and many people were actually trying to put natural language questions into search. And so how can you provide helpful context, links to go deeper and make an AI that made sense for Google? And so that was our first version of these models that could do this for people. And then by building into that and seeing kind of this observation around people wanting more of it, direct access to it, and then being able to ask follow-up questions, like you kind of need a new modality.

要在核心搜索体验的框架内实现所有这些功能确实非常困难。因此我们组建了一个小型团队，包括几位技术负责人和设计师，规模极小，只为验证一个设想：如果有一块近乎空白的画布，就像新建文档时的闪烁光标那样——假如存在一个新页面，你可以直接提问，随时追问，并能调用原本驱动搜索顶部体验的AI（不过我们投入资源使其更强大，如前所述）。它能替你搜索，其模型具备推理能力。

Like it's not, it's gonna be really hard to build all of that within the construct of the core search experience. And so that led us to have a form of small team of folks, a few people that were like technical leaders, a couple designers, very small, to just prove out, like, if there was on almost like blank screen, like delete, like make a little, like a fresh doc with a blinker. Like what if there's a new page and you can ask the question, you can ask every one of it, you can tap right into the AI that was originally powering this top of the experience in search, but we invested in making it much more powerful in the ways I described before. It could search for you. It had reasoning as a part of its model capability.

它支持多轮对话上下文记忆，能追踪交流语境。这些独特功能让我们快速尝试后获得了初步成果——最初团队可能只有5到10人规模。

It had multi turn context. So if you had a conversation with it, it could keep track of that context. So it had some unique pieces to it. And what would happen if we tried that quickly? And we basically got, I mean, was probably like five to 10 people worth of people originally.

这个团队是多久前成立的？

And how long ago was this team formed?

大概是在过去一年里，去年夏天左右。

This was probably over the last year, like last summer.

哇哦。所以大约是一年前。

Oh wow. Oh, wow. So about a year ago.

是的，大概一年前吧。可能就是那时候开始的。我们当时确实在埋头苦干。然后我们看到它初现雏形，虽然还不完善，但偶尔会闪现出惊艳的瞬间。

Yeah. Maybe about a year ago. It was where maybe it's it's it started. And and we were really kind of plugging away on it. And then we we kinda saw this little version of it emerge that wasn't very good, but it had this moments of brilliance.

这其实有点像打高尔夫，当你打出完美一杆时，那种感觉就像——天啊！一切都恰到好处。比如有次我问它关于...记不清了，好像是和我女儿策划某个活动，它居然找到了所有公园相关的实用信息，甚至还附带了官网链接让我核实细节。

And it's actually again, it's kinda like golf where, like, you hit the perfect shot and you're like, oh my god. Like, you get that feeling where it's just everything worked. And, like, I asked it a question about I forgot. Was, like, I was doing, like, something with my daughter, and I was planning an experience, and it found all this, like, incredibly useful information about park information. It had it had links to, like, go to the site and confirm a bunch of things.

它提供了谷歌地图信息，显示对我女儿来说步行可达。早期这类案例真的震撼到我——它能做到的事、能找到的资源、提供的帮助太惊人了。这让我们坚信应该继续推进。当然这种决策需要很多人参与，得到全公司领导层的大力支持，但最初还是需要一个小团队先做出原型亲身体验。

It had Google Maps information that, like, for my daughter, you could, you know, walk up. It had, like it was walkable. Like, there was early examples like this where it was just it blew me away what it could do what it could find and how helpful it was. And so it gave us conviction that we we should go and go further. And obviously there's lots of people involved in this type of a decision, tons of support from leaders across the organization, but it just has like a little working team that initially you gotta build something and then you have to feel it yourself.

这种方式很有创业精神。当你亲眼见证成果时，就会想：我们需要打造一个真正可行的完善版本——这给了我们希望。于是我们最终构建出首个发布到实验室的版本。

And it's very entrepreneurial in that way. And then when you see it tangibly, you're like, we need like, what's a version of that that's good and that could work, and that gave you hope. And so then we basically built it out and built the first version that launched in labs, basically.

所以第一个重要里程碑就是确认它确实可行？更多是种定性体验，就像'哇，这里面真有玄机'的感觉？

So the first big milestone was this is working. It was just a qualitative experience of like, oh, wow, this has really interest There's magic here.

没错，它能运行。实际上在进入实验室前，我们先邀请了可信测试组——大约500名外部用户。我们保持密切沟通，其中有些人还邀请了亲友参与。我们采用更接近初创公司的方式，因为需要真实反馈，需要有人直言不讳地指出问题——毕竟初期肯定漏洞百出。

Yes, it's working. And then we did bring it before labs actually to Trusted Tester Group. There were maybe like 500 people externally that we added onto it, and we had pings with them. Some of them were they actually had friends and family. We tried to treat it a little more like a startup where because we want we feel like you gotta have people test it to tell you the truth and tell you when it sucks because it probably does.

他们会直接发消息给我。比如有个朋友又爱又恨，总是发截图轰炸我：'这里坏了'、'那里崩了'。

And then they'd message you. It's like I had a friend who was loving it, but also hating it for lots of good reasons and would just be messaging me all the time. Screenshots. This broke. This broke.

这毫无道理。我们就这样维持了一段时间，直到感觉开始好转。你知道，受信任的测试者们喜欢它，反馈也很积极。然后我们进入了实验室阶段，任何人都可以启用它。

This makes no sense. And so we kinda had that for a while. And then we got to a point where it was feeling good. You know, the trusted testers were liking it, reporting good stuff. And then we brought it to this labs moment where anyone could turn it on.

接着我们利用真实的查询数据来优化它。我们能看到更多用户的实际使用场景，从而调整改进。之后我们在I/O大会上向所有人发布，至少在美国是这样，现在正致力于将其推广到所有国家和语言，让更多人能使用它。

And then we used that to make it better with real query data. Like we could actually see what people were using it for at more scale, and so that could tune it to make it better. And then we launched it at IO to everyone, at least in The US, and then we've now been on this journey to expand it to all countries and languages and, have more people be able to access it.

谷歌在短短一年内从构想到实现由AI驱动的搜索体验重大变革，这令人难以置信。我想这不是人们印象中的谷歌，感觉你们的运作方式已经不同了。是什么让这一切发生得如此之快？有什么变化？仅仅是自上而下的领导力吗？

It's incredible that Google went roughly in a year from idea to, a significant change to the search experience that's AI powered. I think this is not what people imagine Google is like, and it feels like things are different and things have changed in how you guys operate. What what has allowed this to happen so quickly? What's changed? Is it just like top down leadership?

我们是需要把事情搞定，还是有更深层次的原因？

We need to get shit done, or there something more?

不。我觉得组织如何改变很有意思。当你意识到当下有一个对用户至关重要的时刻——比如人们试图从谷歌获取信息，而我们无法以某些方式回答或帮助他们时。

No. I mean, I think it's interesting how how organizations change. I think I think when you feel like there is an a moment in time that is clearly critical to deliver for people. Like, people are trying to get information from Google. We are not able to answer certain things or help people in certain ways.

而这项技术能做到。这就产生了紧迫感。显然，很多人都在构建各种东西，市场很疯狂，新事物不断涌现。对我们来说，这是一个令人兴奋且健康的快速建设时期。抓住这个机会本身就让人振奋。

And there's this technology that can do it. That creates urgency. And obviously, there's lots of people building lots of things, and and the market's crazy, and there's lots of things shipping all the time. And so there's a there's a really exciting and healthy moment for us to build and build quickly. And I think it's just exciting to be able to capture that opportunity.

因为我相信，未来一年左右的产品将奠定人们多年使用新一代产品的方式。至少对我个人而言，我感到有责任为用户提供由AI驱动的最佳版谷歌，让他们通过AI获取谷歌所掌握的全部世界知识和信息。正是这种使命感推动着我们的热情。

Because I think people believe, and I certainly believe that the next year or so of product is gonna kind of establish how people use the next wave of products for many years. And so at least, I mean, I can only speak for myself, like I feel this obligation to our users to give them the best version of Google that's powered by AI, and that gives them the full knowledge of everything Google knows about the world and information to people and accessible with AI. So that's driving a lot of the excitement.

确实，人们正在养成新习惯这一点说得太对了。比如现在有多少人依赖Chat GPT，以及这种转变发生的速度之快，简直令人难以置信。我能理解谷歌的担忧——糟糕，大家的搜索习惯正从谷歌转向JGPT，而现在Gemini成了头号选择。我其实看了热门应用排行榜，在前15名中谷歌占了大概5个，三分之一的比例，这太疯狂了。简直碾压全场。

Yeah, it's such a good point that people are building their new habits. Like it's wild how many people just now rely on chat GPT and how quickly that happened. And I could see Google being worried that oh shit everyone's changing their habit from searching Google to searching JGPT, and the fact that now Gemini is number one. I was actually looking at the list of top, so in the top 15 apps Google is I think five of them, A third, that's out of control. Killing it.

当人们对比AIMode与ChatGPT、Clot或者Perplexity时，你认为AIMode的定位与这些工具相比如何？是试图直接竞争，还是说其实差异很大，有自己独特的用途？

When people look at AI mode versus say ChatGPT or Clot or let's even say perplexity, what's the way you think about the positioning of AI mode versus these other tools? Is it like trying to be a direct competitor or is it just like no, it's actually pretty different, and here's what it's for?

是的，Mode是一种可以询问任何搜索需求的工具。它是专门为获取信息而设计和打造的。因此它应该能为人们来谷歌寻求的内容提供极其有用的回答。比如你正在规划旅行、购物，或是为研究项目寻找答案——这些都需要信息支持。

Yeah, mean, mode's a way to ask search anything you want. It's designed and specially created for information. And so really it should give incredible, helpful responses for the things that people come to Google for. So think about you're planning a trip, you're trying to buy something, you're working through question for your research project. Like it needs information.

它确实不太侧重创意类功能，虽然这方面也有些不错的能力。和任何核心AI产品一样，它能帮你重写文本之类的。但我们更少聚焦在创意生产、电子表格上传生成图表这些领域。

And that's really, it's less focused on things like creativity. Although there's things it can do that are nice there. It can help you with just like any kind of core AI product. You can ask it to rewrite something for you, it'll do that. But we are less focused on creativity, productivity, upload a spreadsheet and output graphs for me.

我们专注的是人们使用谷歌的核心场景，并为此打造AI。这样你来谷歌可以随意提问，轻松获取信息、上下文和链接，还能验证内容、深入挖掘，最终找到人们需要的权威来源——这是用户反馈告诉我们的。这些特质使得我们的产品区别于聊天机器人。虽然我们也有些对话功能，但用户通常是来获取信息的。他们想学习知识，而我们的产品正是聚焦于此。

We're not focused on that. We're really focused on what people use Google for, and making an AI for that, so that you can come to Google, ask whatever you want, and get effortless information about that, and context and links, and then also verify, dig in, and go to the authoritative sources ultimately that people want, and we hear from people. So those are ends up becoming the distinct qualities of this product versus, you know, more of like a chatbot, maybe you would talk to it, like, you maybe even have like a bit of like a, hey, how are you doing today with that chatbot that, you know, we have some of that, we see that a little bit, but people are usually coming for information. They're trying to learn something, and we we focused our product on that.

明白了。所以AIMode不是你的心理医生。如果再宏观些回顾你参与过的所有杰出产品和工作经历，如果要选出两三个帮助你打造如此成功产品的核心原则或理念，会是什么？

Got it. Okay. AIMode is not your therapist. Maybe zooming out again a little bit and reflecting on all the amazing products you've worked on, all the places you've worked. If you had to pick two or three just core product principles or philosophies that have helped you build such amazing and successful products, what would those be?

首先想到的是？

What comes to mind?

我是说，通常我会考虑三个方面。比如，如果要我写一本关于如何打造优秀产品的书，大概会有三个章节。当然实际可能不止，但核心会是三章。

I mean, there's typically three things I think about. Like, if I were to write a book about, how to how to build great products, there'd be like three chapters. I mean, there'd probably be more than that, but three chapters.

这太棒了。我就喜欢这种简洁的风格，这才是理想状态

I'd love that. I love the how short that would be. That's the ideal

首先——其实这三个维度我已经思考很久了，它们始终是恒定不变的三大要素。第一是深度理解用户。我们之前讨论过克莱顿·克里斯坦森《与运气竞争》中提到的

The first I mean, I thought I thought I thought about these three areas now for a while, and it's like, they're they're always consistently the three things. The first is deeply understand people. And I think we talked about this a little bit with the jobs to be done point and, you know, Clayton Christensen's book, which I loved around competing against luck. It really helps you be a student of why someone ends up, in his words, hiring a product. Like, don't think of users as using your product, think of users as hiring you to do something for them.

有句名言说得好（可能是西奥多·莱维特说的）：人们不需要四分之一英寸的钻头，他们需要的是四分之一英寸的孔。你必须深刻理解用户真正的诉求，才能打造出卓越产品。同理，当用户不使用你的产品时，也要追问背后的原因。

You know, there's this famous quote, I think it's Theodore Levitt had, people don't want a quarter inch drill, they want a quarter inch hole. So what is someone trying to do? You have to understand that deeply. And then you can build an amazing product. And also, by the way, how do you, when you go back, why someone not using your product, right?

因此这个理论聚焦于挖掘因果关系的技巧。克里斯坦森在访谈中详细阐述过，他称之为

And so it focuses on these techniques to extract causation. So he actually talks a lot about this interview. He calls it like an interrogation where he talked to a user like, hey, do you use my product? Where were you? Were you were you in bed?

还是在工作？正在做什么？'哦，早上和妻子聊天时'。接着追问：'当时怎么想到用的？'

Were you like at work? What were you doing? Oh, I was talking to my wife in the morning. Okay. Well, what brought it up?

'可能当时正在看报纸'。继续深挖：'为什么看报时会用？'。当用户首次决定使用产品的那个瞬间，他称之为

Well, I guess I was reading the newspaper. Okay. Well, why? And then you have this like moment like that when they first decide to use your product, he calls it the big hire. That is information that you obtain ends up becoming the most critical, because that is what caused someone to use your product.

如果你能研究并理解这一点，你将比仅仅构建听起来很酷的东西走得更远。这就是第一章的内容，即深刻理解人。第二章则真正关乎分析严谨性和理解你的问题。你必须理解你的问题。这部分与我们之前讨论的有些关联，关于根本原因分析，比如指标下降时，要问为什么？

And if you can study that and understand it, you will be much more on your way than just building things that sound cool. And so that's the first chapter, like deeply understand people. Second is really around analytical rigor and understanding your problems. You have to understand your problems. And this got, this is a little bit of what we were talking about, about root cause analysis and understanding, okay, the metrics are dropping, like why?

如果有人不使用你的产品，为什么？要真正剖析这个问题，找到真正的根本原因。比如，他们一路操作到最后却放弃了，通过交流后你发现，我们其实了解到——Instagram密友功能刚上线时就完全失败了。数据显示人们只添加了一位密友，因为‘密友’在许多市场被误译为‘最好的朋友’，所以用户只填一个人，而那个人看到并回复的概率几乎为零。

If someone's not using your product, why? And really being able to dissect that to get to true root causes. It's like, well, they went all the way to the end and then bailed, and you talk to, and then you understand, It turns out that it was most we actually learned about this, and there's a there's a story in in close friends at Instagram where it just totally failed at first on on a in in a in a bunch of just when we shipped it. And it turned out that we looked at the data and people were only adding one close friend to their list because it was mistranslated as best friend in many markets. So people just put one person and then the probability that person saw it and wrote back to you was like zero.

这是个有缺陷的设定。所以关键是要理解问题所在。第三章则是关于为清晰度而非聪明才智而设计。很多人总说‘我们要做差异化设计’，比如我们之前讨论过的‘故事’功能。

It's a prop which is broken. So it's like, gotta understand your problems. And then the third one's around really designing for clarity instead of cleverness. Like a lot of people are like, oh, we're gonna differentiate the design. And you know, we talked about this a little bit with stories.

比如‘我们要做某个标准的新版本’。但如果某物已是标准且被人们理解，顺势而为会比重新发明获得更大杠杆效应。你必须谨慎决定何时该创新，何时不该。唐纳德·诺曼的《设计心理学》中有个精彩章节专门讲门的设计——为什么经过这么多年，人们走到门前仍会困惑该推还是拉？

Like, we're gonna make a new version of something. But if something's a standard and people understand it, if you lean into it, you're gonna get so much leverage than if you reinvent it. And you have to be really thoughtful around when you reinvent and where you don't. And I think on this one, there's this great book, Don Norman's book, obviously, Design of Everyday Things is a is a big one. But he has this incredible chapter in there about doors and how why is it that after all of these years, you walk up to a door and based on how they're designed at times, people still don't know if you should pull or push that door.

因为如果你在玻璃门上设计两个完全对称的漂亮把手，它根本不会传递任何操作信息。我们经常设计新图标，其实完全可以用通用图标。比如非要把相机图标做成带有AI元素并关联其他产品的花哨设计，但用户只认相机图标——直接放个相机图标就好，顶多加个小修饰，这样才能让用户真正使用你的产品。

Because if you try to build the most beautiful symmetric two handles on each side on a glass door, it, like, doesn't communicate in for any information to you. And there's lots of I've seen all the time we've designed new icons when we could have used global icons. Oh, wouldn't it be so cool if we used, you know, like a camera that's like kind of a camera, but is mostly an AI looking thing and then is most but then has this dots in it that connects it to this other product and you're like, people just just it's a camera. Just just put the camera in. Maybe you could add like a little thing to it and that's how you get people to use your products.

如果能做到这三点，通常就能成功。哦对了，第四点是保持谦逊——持续质疑自己，倾听他人和用户意见，并保持接受错误的开放心态。

And if you do those three things, I think you typically can do well. And then oh, sorry. The fourth one is gonna be more of code is be humble. Like constantly and always question yourself, listen to others, listen to users, and be open to being wrong.

说得太棒了。关于第三点，‘AI模式’这个命名本身就是清晰度的绝佳范例。这是什么？这就是AI模式。

I love these. On that third point, I feel like AI mode as the name is such a good example of clarity. What is this? This is AI mode.

我们内部讨论过这个问题。就像，如果你在标签页里看，每个人都知道你一看就明白那是什么。或者我们可以随便叫它什么，但那样又是什么意思呢？你懂吧？然后现在你就在跟自己对着干。

We talked about it internally. Like, it's like, if you look at it in the tab, it's like everyone knows it's like you see it and you'll know what it is. Or we could call it something like random, but then what is that? You know? And and now you're working against yourself.

所以如果要我总结这三点的核心，这就是你会写来帮助人们打造更成功产品的那本书。首先要深刻理解你为用户解决的问题。他们‘雇佣’你做什么？我喜欢这种小写的‘待完成工作’说法，不是那种严谨的大写理论。

So if I were to reflect back these three pieces of basically, this is the this is the book you would write to help people build more successful products. It's understand the problem you're solving for people deeply. What's the job they're hiring you to do? I love the, it's like lowercase jobs to be done, it's not like the rigorous whole Exactly, lowercase

确实如此。

for sure.

好的，这就像是：人们为什么‘雇佣’你的产品来解决问题？他们要解决什么问题？所以基本上就是弄清楚他们遇到什么问题，然后通过数据深入理解这个问题以及你是否解决了它，最后保持极简——本质上就是追求清晰而非花哨。

Okay, this is just like, why are people hiring your product to solve a problem for them, what problem are they solving? So it's like basically figure why they, what problem they're having, then very, through data, understand the problem and whether you are solving it, and then it's just keep it really simple, like clarity over cleverness, essentially.

完全正确。还要保持谦逊。

Exactly, yes. And be humble.

保持谦逊。对。这很重要。我们还没讨论过什么能体现这点的实际案例吗？比如...

And be humble. Yeah. It's okay. Important. Is there an example that we haven't talked about that shows this in action of just like, cool.

这是我们发现的问题，这是我们确认的解决方案，如果我们成功了，那么这里有个非常简单的解决方式。

Here's the problem we found. Here's how we figured out this is the solution, and if we're succeeding, and then here's a very simple way of solving it.

我是说，这个密友功能的例子——我还能从Instagram时代给你举更多例子——真的很疯狂。我们花了两三年才让密友功能正常运作。最初它完全失败了。这个产品让你可以添加一个私人好友列表，然后你发布到动态时只有这些人能看到。就像个非常私密的专属空间，让你可以毫无顾虑地分享内容。

I mean, this close friends example, I can give you more from Instagram days, was really wild. It took two or three years to get close friends to work. And I think people, it totally failed originally. This is the product that lets you add a private list of people and then you can post to your story and then only those people see it. It's like this very exclusive private space, so you can feel really comfortable sharing people.

绿色圆圈。

Green circle.

对，绿色圆圈。至少在我任职期间，这是动态功能里最受欢迎的功能之一，效果非常好，但最初完全失败了。我们发现其实运用了这里提到的多项技巧。首先我们将其视为系统性问题——你可以为任何内容设置密友可见，无论是动态墙帖子还是限时动态，甚至还有专属的密友个人主页。

Green circles, yes. It's one of the most popular, at least when I was there, one of the most popular features of Stories and did really well, but it totally failed. And I think, you know, what we found out was that, you know, you actually used a bunch of these techniques here. So one was, we first thought about it as an overall system problem, and you could add a close friend's post for anything. So you could do a feed post or a stories post, and you also had a close friend's profile.

比如如果Lenny访问Robbie的主页，我们互为密友，就会看到'哦，你还能在我主页看到额外内容'。我们上线时觉得这很棒，这就是保持谦逊的部分——实际并不理想。

So you could see like like if Lenny went to Robbie's page, we were close friends, you would just be like, oh, you get to see extra stuff from me on my profile too. So we shipped it. We thought it'd be great. This is the be humble part. Wasn't great.

存在大量问题，用户体验极其混乱。比如刚看完一张精美照片，紧接着动态墙就出现某人想分享给朋友的模糊脆弱瞬间，与用户使用动态墙的初衷格格不入。更混乱的是——有些内容带着绿色标记而有些没有，点开故事内部又有绿色标记，用户完全摸不着头脑。好友列表也存在翻译问题导致功能失效。

Had a bunch of it was just super confusing. Like, you see this really beautiful photo, and then in the feed right after it, this blurry, very vulnerable moment someone's trying to share with their friends just felt so out of place and weird for the the, you know, the reason people use feed. And then it was just confusing because you didn't it had like an extra little green thing on it, but it was like, that got a green thing and the stories one didn't. If you open the story, it had a green thing inside the story, and it people were just so confused. And they had this other issue with the list where you're like, okay, the list doesn't work because it's mistranslated and people don't get it.

我记得最初这个功能叫'收藏'，导致用户只添加两三个人。但回到框架层面：我深刻理解用户需求——他们想通过这个功能分享脆弱时刻，比如'嘿，我很孤独'。

Because I think it was actually called originally favorites, I wanna say, and that encouraged people to just do like two people on it. But then the way that it worked was, so this gets to the framework, I guess. So I deeply understand people. What are people trying to do with this? What they're trying to do is share a vulnerable thing and be like, hey, I'm lonely.

就像在朋友群里问'有人醒着吗？'。如果列表里只有两个人，当这个本该连接好友的功能得不到私信回复时，整个体验就崩坏了。

Hey, what's going on? Like, are people up? And it feels very much, it's like a friend group thing. And if you only have two people on it, the job that we're doing is actually connecting you to your friends. And if you don't get a DM back, it's broken.

因此，我们实际上是在为你提供私信功能，让你获得连接感，感受到与密友的紧密联系。这就是它的使命。正如克莱顿·克里斯坦森在书中提到的，产品需求分为实用型和情感型两类，人们往往低估情感需求的重要性。这个功能既是实用工具，更是情感纽带。

And so really what we're doing is getting you a DM and we're getting you connection, we're getting you a sense of being connected to your close friends. That is the job. It's actually, the other thing Clayton Christensen talked about in the book is there are utility jobs, and there are emotional jobs. People usually discount the emotional ones a lot. This was really an emotional thing as much as it was utility one.

所以产品出了问题。明白吗？用户甚至不知道这是密友专属故事——他们只能看到小头像，必须点击才能查看内容。结果人们渐渐不再使用这个功能。

And so product's broken. Right? And people don't even know that you can it's a close friend's story. They just see the little head because you have to click on it to see the thing. And so it just people stopped using it.

于是我们进行了多次迭代：简化流程、更新功能、执行修改清单——比如删除某些元素、调整命名等。后来发现，这个功能对添加了20-30位密友的用户效果极佳。因为当你列出30人时，通常会有两人通过私信回复，这样就形成了闭环互动，让你感受到真实的连接——这才是成功的关键。于是我们围绕这个机制重新设计系统，并限定仅在故事功能中生效。

So we went through and we did these revs where we would like simplify it and we would update it and we would go through this change list. Okay, take this out, take this out, change the name here. And then we saw was that it was working really well for people who added 20 to 30 people to their list. Because what would happen is you put 30 people on your list, and then two of them would write back to you on DM, and now you have closed the loop and you feel connected to those people, it's a winning thing. And so we designed the whole system around that and also only worked in stories.

我们持续分析数据，试图找出功能的有效点和失效点。随后将名称改为'密友'（避免让人联想到'收藏'这种少量人选的概念），推荐列表规模定为20人左右。我们开发了智能列表构建工具，通过工程师设计的算法基于数据推荐人选。最后更新设计，在故事外圈添加绿色环状标识来提升视觉辨识度。

So we were looking at the data, we were trying to understand where it was working and where it was failing. And then we updated the name to close friends, so it didn't feel like favorites. So it wasn't like three people, it's like 20. In the list, we made the we built this list builder where we recommended a set of people based on some data, some some cool algo that was created by an engineer. And then we and then we updated the design to put the green ring on the outside of the story so that this was the kind of the design for clarity.

最初我们设计得过于隐晦——像是'秘密故事'的概念，需要用户点开才能发现内容。这种设计显然不够直观。后来改为在外侧显示绿色圆环，用户在浏览页看到就会好奇'这个小绿圈是什么？'，点击后才明白'原来这是专属我的私密故事'。这个系统最终取得了惊人的成功。

We're being cute, like, oh, if you we thought I think at the time it was like, oh, it's like a secret story or something, and if you open it, you see it. It just was not clear to people. And so we put the green ring on the outside so that users would see it in the tray and be like, oh, what's that little green guy? And then they'd click on it and be like, Oh, this is like a private story for me. That system worked and did incredibly well.

这就是我们如何将一个彻底失败的功能转变为高人气产品的全过程。

And that was the process we followed from like a total flop to something that was very successful.

这个案例太棒了。你说这个过程花了大概两三年时间？

That is an awesome example. And this took two or three years, you said.

是的，这确实花了不少时间。那实际上是我们做过最长期的项目之一。但我们之所以坚持做这件事，是因为当我们询问人们为何不愿发布动态时，发现大家普遍存在可预测的困扰——比如为什么你不发快拍？究竟是什么在阻碍你？

Yeah, it took a while. That was actually one of the longest projects we worked on. But that actually came the reason we did it was when we we asked people to predictably understand people. Like, what why aren't you posting to your stories? Like, what's preventing you from doing it?

每个人的理由都大同小异：我的前任在用这个软件、我的老师也在用、还有个爱评头论足的朋友在关注。这种共性揭示了一个观众群体问题——人们总对某些观看者心存芥蒂。

And everyone had some version of, well, my ex is on it. I have a teacher on it. Oh, a friend that kind of is judgy is on it. It was like this kind of like commonality was audience problems. Someone had an issue with people watching them.

正是这个发现让我们有决心长期投入，因为我们意识到这是产品的核心痛点。

And so that gave us conviction to go this hard at it for so long, because we knew that that was a core problem with the product.

这和Finsta（假账号）、Rinsta（真账号）的风潮也有关系吗？

Was this connected to the Finsta, Rinsta trend also?

确实有关，我认为这种现象启发了我们。当时人人都玩Finsta，还有所谓的Binsta（闺蜜专属账号），就像俄罗斯套娃似的——有人甚至分到20层小号，连伴侣都有专属Pinsta。虽然Pinsta这个词是我编的，但肯定有人这么干过。我们意识到：人们显然在通过变通方式把Instagram改造成私人小圈子工具，那我们就该直接开发这样的产品。

It was, actually, I think that informed us, like everyone had a Finsta, and there was a Binsta, right? Was like the best friend, Binsta, so like different, it's like this layering of like, people have like 20 Finstas down to like your partner, Pinsta. Then it's basically like, I made that up, I don't know if it's true, but I'm sure there were Pinstas out there somewhere. And we were like, wow, people clearly trying to hack Instagram basically to create these private smaller group settings. And so we should just make a product.

明白了。你们具体怎么测试的？是灰度发布给部分用户？还是像新西兰这样的特定地区？

Yeah. How did you actually do this testing? Was it rolled out to some percentage? Was it rolled out like in New Zealand or whatever?

没错，就是在几个其他国家先试点的。

Yeah, rolled out in a few other countries, exactly.

好的，明白了。

Okay, got it.

我们当时有一篮子国家作为试点，然后会进行研究。我记得澳大利亚是首批试点国家之一。

We had like a basket of countries that we tried it in, and then we would do research. Think it was Australia, it was one of the first ones for that one.

好的，我正想问能否分享一下这些国家，比如澳大利亚。

Okay, I was gonna ask if you could share the countries, so Australia.

对，澳大利亚应该是早期试点之一。每次推出新功能时，背后的原因都会略有不同。

I think that was one of the earlier ones, yeah. It's always, every time you ship something, there's a slightly different reason why.

哦，有意思，所以并不是所有新功能都优先在澳大利亚推出。

Oh, interesting, so it's not always Australia gets all the new stuff.

没错。不过有时候确实如此，澳大利亚和加拿大经常作为试点，主要是因为团队更容易获取他们的反馈

No. Although it sometimes is, Australia and Canada get a lot of stuff just because it's easier for the teams to like see feedback from them and

是啊，都说英语嘛。

Yeah. Speak English.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah. Exactly.

太棒了。好的。让我换个方向，谈谈你持有强烈观点的话题。如今很多人讨论精简团队、小团队，仅用有限资源，甚至完全不招聘。而你似乎持相反观点，认为实际上需要大量资源才能实现重大突破。

Awesome. Okay. Let me go in a different direction and talk about something that you have a hot take on. There's a lot of talk these days about lean teams, small teams, just creating limited resources, not hiring at all. You kind of have an opposite perspective of you actually need a lot of resources to build really big breakthroughs.

请谈谈你在这方面的经验。

Talk about your experience there.

是的。我认为这显然取决于你要构建什么。历史上确实有小团队打造出具有巨大影响力产品的著名案例。但我感觉现在有种对'精简、灵活、快速、快速抛弃产品、持续前进'的盲目崇拜。某种程度上这对内部信念成立，但要打造一个面向大众且基于技术突破的产品，我常看到团队过早放弃或投入不足。当然，领域也很重要。

Yeah. I mean, I think there's obviously depends on what you're trying to build, and there's been famously small teams building big impact products. But I think there's kind of this cult of lean, scrappy, fast, throw away your product quickly, keep moving. And I think at some level it's true for internal conviction, but to build a product that works for a lot of people that is based on a techno technological breakthrough, a lot of times I see teams just give up too early or under invest in the product. And obviously the space matters.

如果你构建的是...比如一个简单的数字应用，那和创建机器人公司肯定不同，对吧？所以项目类型确实会影响策略。但即使是软件领域，想想那些攻克真正技术难题的团队——比如构建基础模型需要多少年时间、数百人的投入。再看看那些对人类产生巨大影响的大公司。特别是在大公司内部，我观察到的问题是过于'精简'导致项目永远无法积累足够动能。

And if you're building, you know, like a single product that is a way to, I don't know, do something with a digital app that's fairly straightforward, that's gonna be different than building a robotics company, right? So what you're building does does change. But even for software, I mean, I think for really hard technical problems, think about the amount of time and effort it took for teams to build a foundational model and how many years and hundreds and hundreds of people that were needed for that to happen. And you think about these large companies that have had huge impacts on people. And I think particularly for bigger companies internally, something I've seen is it's almost like too scrappy because it never gets enough momentum.

产品在内部永远达不到足够好的水平，最终半途而废。虽然增加人手要避免过早扩张，但我更常见的问题是团队规模长期过小。这会导致要么花费漫长时间才能达到目标——就像我提到的Close Friends案例，它曾是小团队运作，进展缓慢的原因之一就是团队规模长期过小、迭代周期太短。

It the product never gets good enough internally, and then it kinda just dies on the vine. Whereas if you put more people on it, you have to be careful not to put too many too soon, but I see the opposite more true where people hold on to small teams too long. And then you kinda, like, either takes forever to get to the thing you're looking for. Like, this close friends example I mentioned, this is actually was a small team. One of the reasons it took us forever was it kept the team so small and scrappy that, like, loop cycle was so short.

以创业公司的生命周期标准，这种节奏早就死了。大公司或许能承受，但创业公司没有这种奢侈。所以我认为应该从第一性原理出发，认真思考：'我需要多少人才能打造出优秀版本？'而不是盲目信奉'就我们两个人干到产品获得市场契合度'——这种理念并不总是正确。

And by a startup age, you'd be dead probably. So you can maybe do that in a bigger company, but as a startup, I don't know if you have that, you know, that leisure. And so I think you need to actually think, what is the group I need to build a version that's great? And from first principles, really think about it, instead of just embracing blindly, okay, we're gonna be the two of us until this thing has escaped velocity and market fit, which it's not always true.

这显然与我们在Twitter上看到的叙事背道而驰。布雷特，你能分享些什么吗？就像你用来决策的经验法则。比如什么时候该保持小规模，我知道这没有明确的一二三步骤，但我听到的建议是先小规模验证概念，可能由设计师、产品经理和工程师参与。你发现何时适合扩大规模？

It's definitely counter to the narrative we see on Twitter. Anything you can share, Bret, just like the heuristic you use to decide. Here's when how long to keep it small. I know it's, you know, there's not gonna be this step one, two, three, but just like what I'm hearing is start small to prove out the concept designer PM engineer, maybe. When do you find that makes sense to go big?

是的，我认为主要是在你达到确信时刻的时候。我觉得有两个重要里程碑：内部确信——你自己是否相信它？这种确信来自外部验证，比如你让20个朋友试用。不过我得说，在创业过程中我很快发现，让20个朋友试用产品，他们并不会给你太多面子。

Yeah, I think that it's mostly when you've hit the conviction moment. Like I think there's two big milestones. There's like internal conviction, like for yourself, do you believe in it? And you believe in it because there's some external validation, like your friends, you put 20 friends on it. And by the way, I found out very quickly building startups that if you put 20 friends on something, they're not gonna do you that many favors.

他们不会因为是你朋友就天天使用产品。三十天、六十天、九十天后，除非你的产品对他们真正有用，否则他们不会继续使用。通过收集这些反馈，看到人们真正喜欢它，你就达到了那个时刻。但我觉得这还不是一个能在外部获胜的产品，因为如果直接发布，它可能漏洞百出，体验不佳。

Like they're not gonna use a product every single day because they're your friend. Like thirty days in, sixty days in, ninety days in, they're not using your product unless you're doing something that's useful to them. And so you get like all of this feedback and you're seeing people really enjoy it. You get to that moment. And then I think that's not a product that would win externally because if you were to ship it, it's like broken, doesn't work great.

这时就需要投入足够资源打造最佳版本，或尽可能好的版本，然后发布。这就像你最终想打造出正确的产品，而这种目标只有与合适的团队才能实现。

And then you need to, I think invest enough to make the best version of it, or as good a version as you can, to get it out the door, and to ship it. And I think that that, it's kind of like you wanna build the right product eventually is the mentality, and you can only really do that with the right group.

现在进入我们播客的固定环节——AI角落。你在工作或生活中发现AI有哪些真正有趣、实用的应用？也许能启发其他人？

I'm gonna take us to a recurring segment on the podcast that I call AI Corner. Okay. What's some way that you've found a use for AI in your work, in your life that is really interesting, really helpful, and maybe other people can be inspired by?

我认为最酷的趋势之一是AI如何影响人们在多模态视觉和灵感需求方面的体验。虽然我们还处于早期阶段，这其实也是我正在做的项目。目前AI主要成长于文本模态（如聊天），所以长期以来，如果你问它'如何重新布置你身后的书架'，它只能用文字描述。但未来AI将解放到所有可能的应用模态中。

I think one of the coolest trends ever is how AI is affecting multimodal visual and inspirational needs for people. And it's, we're early in this, and I think this is something that I'm actually working on as a project as well. But right now, if you think about what AI has done in large part, it was born and grew up in this text modality as chat. And so for a long time, if you were to ask it to help you, what's a cool way to redecorate your bookshelf behind you, it's gonna describe that to you in text, because that's what it knows. But increasingly, AI is gonna be liberated to help in every possible modality.

这点我们在Google Lens、图片搜索和图像功能的爆炸式应用中已经看到很多。我们内部正在使用并即将发布（部分已在I/O大会上宣布）的是AI如何助力灵感激发和购物体验，帮助完成更多属于'灵感需求'而非'核心工具'（如编程、数学、作业类）的事情。我特别期待那些能响应灵感需求的功能——根据我的观察，它已经开始做出令人惊艳的表现，希望很快能分享更多进展。

And this is something that we've seen a lot with this explosive use of Google Lens and our image search and image features, and with this deep understanding. And what I'm actually starting to use internally and some things that we're excited about more coming up that we actually announced at IO that we're gonna be we're gonna be building more of was how AI can help with inspiration, how AI can help with shopping, and helping you really get things done that are more in the, like, inspiring bucket of needs versus these, like, core utilities, like code, math, homework kind of side of things. And I'm really excited for things that are coming where you can ask it for inspirational tasks. And it's starting to do really fascinating things in terms of what I'm seeing. And hopefully, we'll share more on that soon.

但有一点我可以分享的是，我们在IO大会上讨论过AI模式的视觉版本。你可以参考那些主题演讲，它目前正在逐步推出。现在你可以询问诸如‘什么是带有暗色调的中世纪现代风格精美办公室设计？’，它能生成一个充满灵感的图像板，并且支持多轮交互。你还可以进一步说‘其实我想要更多浅色调、奶油色、加州风情或海岸氛围’。

But I think the one thing I can share is, you know, there's a visual version of AI mode that basically we talked about for at IO. And so you can reference some of those keynotes, but that's in the process of being rolled out. And so you're gonna be able now ask, like, you know, what's a what's a mid century modern, beautiful office design with dark themes? It'll be able to produce this image board that's inspirational, and you can do multi turn with it. And so you'll be able to go and say, actually, I want more of, a light theme, more creamy, more California, more coastal vibe.

它会理解并执行这些要求，真正‘看到’图像并以类似文本对话的方式与你互动——这将会非常酷。我认为这将是AI即将带来的最令人兴奋的新功能之一。

And it'll do that, and it'll understand that, and it'll actually see the images and be able to turn with you in the way that text works, which is gonna be really cool. So I think that's gonna be one of the more exciting things that that will be new to AI soon.

我听到的是——Nano Banana整合进AI模式了吗？这可是成功的配方啊。

What I'm hearing is, is Nano Banana integrated into AI mode? Recipe for success.

这和Nano Banana不同，因为Nano Banana更像是图像编辑器。而这个功能更像是帮你寻找网络图片，更接近AI灵感激发、AI图像搜索，并允许你通过自然语言与视觉内容对话。虽然‘拍张客厅照片让AI改造’也是个有趣的想法，AI最终可能也会实现这类功能。

Than Nano Banana, because Nano Banana is is like a image editor. This is more like helping you find images on the web. So it's a little bit more like AI inspiration, AI image search, and allowing you to then talk with two effectively, like, visual responses with natural language. So that's gonna, I think, be a little bit different than, you know, edit this photo so that it it it changes it. Although potentially an interesting idea too, to have an ability to, like, take a picture of your living room, and I think AI will help with that too, ultimately.

Pinterest要有麻烦了。人们用Pinterest就是为了获取灵感，现在AI全包了。顺便问下，Nano Banana这个名字是怎么来的？

Pinterest is in trouble. Feels like this is what people use Pinterest for. Here's all the inspiration. Now it's just AI doing it all. By the way, Nano Banana, where where does his name come from?

说实话我忘了，应该有个典故的。开发团队是一群充满活力的人，他们想取个有趣的名字...

I don't actually I I forget that there's a story somewhere. I forget it now, honestly. The team, I think, came from a scrappy, fun group of people building this, and yeah, they they wanted to go for something fun for folks that

是啊，感觉这就是事情开始奏效的部分原因。现在有更多趣味性、让人惊喜的随机创意涌现，就像自然发生的那样。

yeah, it feels like that's a part of the reason things have started to work. There's just like more fun and delight and random crazy stuff out coming out just like it does

感觉现在更像是我第一次在谷歌时的状态，那时你手头有太多事情要做，同时又有一种有趣的探索欲，人们总想尝试新事物并付诸实践。希望这种状态能持续下去。

feel like it feels a little more like when I was at Google the first time through right now where you kind of just have so much stuff and and this kinda like fun curiosity happening where people wanna try things and ship things. And, yeah, hopefully that continues.

是啊。感觉如果v o three有个更古怪的名字可能会更成功。我喜欢这与你提倡的清晰原则相反——比如虽然不知道'纳米香蕉'是什么，但它就是很有效。

Yeah. Feels like v o three would be, even more successful if it had a wacky name. And I like that this is the opposite of your advice of clarity. Like, don't know what Nano Banana is, but it works.

对，这就是另一个重点。没有放之四海皆准的建议，但没错——'纳米香蕉'。

Yeah, that's the other thing. No advice is right universally, It's like, but yeah, Nano Banana.

罗比，你还有其他想分享的内容吗？在进入激动人心的快问快答环节前，还有什么最后的智慧箴言想留给听众？

Robbie, is there anything else that you wanted to share? Anything else you wanna leave listeners with as a final nugget of wisdom before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

这个概念——保持好奇。我认为所有行为的本质都是好奇心，是想弄明白万物为何如此。为什么某人会这样做？为什么有人持不同意见？

This concept, be curious. Like, I think I think of embodying everything as, like, it's really about curiosity. It's about wanting to know why everything is the way it is. Why is someone doing something? Why does someone have a different agree opinion than I do?

为什么这件事行不通？那些怀着强烈好奇心、追根究底直到弄明白的人，我认为你会从中受益匪浅。这是我唯一的临别赠言。

Why might this not be working? And the people who really have that level of intense curiosity and and they chase things down until they know, I think you're well served by that. That would be my only parting thought.

让我顺着这个话题继续，因为'好奇心'可能是最近几个月播客里最常出现的词。每当我问人们'面对AI崛起，你在教导孩子什么品质'时，这个词总被提及。你有什么培养好奇心的秘诀吗？是天生的特质，还是说有具体方法能帮助你和身边人真正践行这种品质？

Let me follow that thread actually, because it's maybe the most trending term on the podcast over the past few months is curiosity. It comes up a lot when I ask people, what are you teaching your kids and embracing with the rise of AI and curiosity comes up all the time. Is there anything that helps you? Is it just like, am good at this, and I'm curious innately, and I'm just, this is valuable. Is there anything you can share that helps you or others around you embody that, and actually be curious?

嗯，我是说，AI显然就像终极好奇心引擎，最酷的地方在于你现在可以询问任何事并立即获取信息。我发现人们往往低估了他们能学到多少自己感兴趣的东西。但这也需要研究你想了解的内容，并知道知识的分支在哪里。很多时候，如果我想学习统计学知识，我会在线阅读免费的旧论文和PDF文件。我认为人们低估了这些模拟、老派但极好的学习资源。

Well, mean, AI is obviously like the ultimate curiosity engine, and that's what's so cool, is you can now ask anything, and just get information. And so I find that people just under appreciate just how much they can learn about whatever they want. But also, think that a lot of this also comes down to studying what you wanna know about and knowing where the branches of knowledge live there. Like a lot of times I'll read like old papers and PDFs that are free online on like a statistics thing if I wanna learn about that. And I think people under appreciate those as like analog, old school, great learning.

而AI能帮助你发现它们。我在谷歌使用AI来帮助发现所有这些很酷的链接和阅读材料。但我发现这是一种有趣的混合方式，不仅仅是依赖AI，而是更多地回归原始资料。就像我在聊天中提到的那些书，你需要综合所有这些才能真正深入理解事物的本质。

And AI can help you discover them. I'm using AI, particularly at Google, to help discover all these cool links and things to read. But I find that that is an interesting hybrid where it's not just AI, but really going to original sources more. And I find that like these books I mentioned on the chat here, I find that you need a blend of all of those things to ultimately really get to the bottom of things ultimately.

比如真正去阅读原文，而不仅仅是读摘要。

Like actually reading the thing, not just reading the summary of the thing.

是的。没错。

Yes. Yes.

让我问你这个问题，我一直在问那些处于AI前沿的人，你有孩子，随着AI的出现并成为世界的重要组成部分，你在考虑和倾向于如何帮助他们学习和成长吗？

Let me actually ask you this question, I've been asking all these people that are at the cutting edge of AI, you have kids, is there anything you're thinking about and leaning into helping them learn, develop as AI, you know, emerges and becomes a big part of the world?

我在做的最重要的事情是，因为我的孩子还小，所以最重要的是让他们更多地使用可以实时对话的AI版本。有趣的是，我们这周刚刚将搜索的实时功能从实验室推出，所以你可以在一个实时AI环境中与搜索对话，这是语音对话功能，开车时你可以用语音询问所有我提到的关于谷歌能做的事情。我发现这对孩子们来说非常容易上手。我听到我的孩子们回家后说，我能和谷歌聊聊某事吗？比如，你需要什么？

The biggest thing I'm doing, I have younger kids, so the biggest thing I'm doing is they're using live versions of AI that they just talk to now much more. And so, know, funny enough, actually just launched search live actually out of labs this week, and so you can talk to search in a live AI setting, which is conversational voice, voice on, so when you're driving, you can just talk all the knowledge I talked about what you can do with Google, You can talk to it in a normal conversation with your voice. And I found that to be incredibly accessible for kids. And I hear all my kids come home, like, can I talk to Google about something? Like, what do you need?

你需要说什么？然后他们打开我的应用，点击实时按钮，开始和它对话。他们想了解动物，想了解某些历史事件，或者学校学到的某些内容。这种学习方式如此自然，我认为这比我在做的其他任何事情都更能帮助他们成为AI原生代。

What do you need to say? And then they go to my app, they hit the live button and they just start talking to it. They wanna know about animals, they wanna know about, you know, certain history things. They learn about something in school, and it's so natural to learn in that way that I think that that's helping them become much more AI native than any other thing I'm doing.

现在当父母的生活会变得太轻松了，孩子们有问题时，直接去和AI聊天就行，但我不觉得这是坏事。这是在谷歌搜索应用里的。有个实时功能。你是怎么怎么进入这个功能的？

Life as a parent is going to be way too easy now whenever kids have questions, just go talk to the go talk to the AI, but I don't think that's bad. So this is within the Google search app. There's a live. How do you how do you access this?

没错，就是这样。你打开谷歌应用。

Yeah, that's exactly right. You go to Google app.

所以它

So it

就是你提到的应用商店里的一个应用。你打开谷歌，现在主页上有个实时按钮。点击它，就能进入一个可以对话的AI实时模式。全屏体验，它会提示你开始说话。

was one of the apps in the app store you mentioned. You open Google, and there's a button now that's live on it, right on the home screen. And if you tap on it, it's a live version of AI mode that you can just talk to. It's a full screen experience, and we'll say, like, start talking.

在节目备注里，我会链接到埃里克·安蒂诺做的这个项目，我超爱。它教你怎么把一个小扬声器塞进毛绒玩具里，然后连接扬声器，可以是谷歌实时，也可以是Jetchie Pee Dee，随你喜欢，用语音控制。你把它放在肩上，用个小磁铁固定，你的孩子就能和这只鹦鹉对话了，比如你可以让它用海盗腔调说话，这样他们就像在和真人聊天。

In the show notes, I'm gonna link to this project that somebody built, Eric Antinow, which I I love. It's it basically shows you how to put a little speaker into a little stuffed animal, and you connect the speaker to, it could be Google Live or it could be Jetchie Pee Dee, whatever you like, in voice And you put it on your shoulder, you get a little magnet that attaches, and your kids could talk to this parrot, for example, and you could tell it talk in a pirate voice, and so they're talking to somebody.

哦，这太有趣了。好吧，真的很可爱。

Oh that's really funny. Okay. That's really cute.

大概需要十五分钟。你可以用美工刀缝制什么的，还挺好玩的。我给我侄子做了一个，他当时正带着这只鹦鹉寻宝呢。

It takes like fifteen minutes. You could like get an exacto knife and and sew it and stuff, and it's kind of fun. I made one for my nephew, he was looking for treasure with this parrot.

那真是太可爱了。我肯定会去了解一下。

That's really adorable. I'm definitely gonna look into that.

罗比，说到这里，我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你。准备好了吗？好的，我准备好了。

Robbie, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Alright. I'm ready.

你平时最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

当然包括我刚才提到的两本——克莱顿·克里斯坦森的《与运气竞争》和唐·诺曼的《设计心理学》。不过小说方面我特别推荐《极光》，大卫·科波写的。这本书讲的是太阳电磁脉冲爆发导致...就是本纯粹消遣的小说。它曾是本很棒的海滩读物，还被改编成网飞剧集。

I mean, definitely the two I mentioned, you know, here, Clayton Christensen, Competing Against Luck, Don Norman, Design of Everyday Things. But also really love this for fiction, Aurora, which is this book David Cope wrote. It's about, it's like electromagnetic pulse in the sun that like knocks out. It's like fiction for just fun. And it was like a really fun beach read and it was only made into a Netflix show.

可惜改编失败了。不知道原因。看到项目夭折我很难过，但这本书确实非常有趣。

It didn't work out. I don't know. I was sad to see that fall apart, but so it's a really fun book.

有本类似题材的书我很喜欢，叫《万福玛利亚》，现在正在拍成电影。

There's a book along those lines that I love. They're making a movie of it right now called Hail Mary.

哦，我最近正在读这本书呢。

Oh, I'm in the middle of reading that right now.

好的。太棒了。是的。我们想到一块儿去了。对。

Okay. Awesome. Yes. We're of the same mind. Yes.

是啊。他们正在把它拍成电影。没想到吧？

Yeah. They're making a movie of it. How about that?

正在读这本书。读到我现在这部分有点荒诞，不过确实... 我很期待后面会怎样发展

In the middle of reading it. It's a little it's it's getting wacky where I am right now, but it's Yeah. I'm excited to see where

后面更荒诞。结局... 哦真的吗？好吧，做好心理准备。行。

it's wackier. The ending Oh, really? Okay. Just prepare yourself. Okay.

你最近特别喜欢的电影或电视剧是什么？

What is a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

我超爱《熊家餐馆》，觉得这部剧简直绝了。《沙丘》当然也不错。虽然新的《壮志凌云》现在有点过时了，但我觉得新版拍得特别带感超精彩。

I love the bear. I think that's just absolutely awesome show. Dune, of course. And I thought the new Top Gun is a little old now, but I think the new Top Gun was so fun and awesome.

最近有没有发现什么让你爱不释手、无法被AI替代的产品？

Is there a product you've recently discovered that you really love that cannot be AI mode?

我要推荐一款非数码产品。完美。我最近迷上了这款叫Purple Pillow的枕头，逢人就安利。现在办公室里我们都在聊枕头话题。

I'm gonna use a non digital product. Perfect. I'm super into this new pillow that I got called Purple Pillow. And I've been recommending it to everyone. Like, at work, we're on, a pillow chat now.

这成了个现象级话题。大家会讨论各自买什么枕头，但这款特别酷——它内部采用蜂窝状聚合物新技术，支撑性好还有透气微孔不会闷热。强烈推荐Purple Pillow，我超爱。

It's like a thing. It's like, you talk about like what pillows we're getting, but it's this really cool thing where it's got this like new technology of like this honeycomb polymer that's inside. And so it like supports you and it has these little micro holes, it doesn't get hot. It's really cool. Big fan, strongly recommend Purple Pillow.

从没听说过这玩意儿，好新奇！我最近刚买了主打低毒材质的牛油果枕头。

I have never heard of this thing. I am excited. I I recently got an avocado pillow focusing on low toxins.

哦那个也不错，我也听过好评。

So Oh, those are good. I've heard good things about those too. Yeah.

行吧，看来我得加入你们的枕头话题。话说枕头讨论真是个绝妙分类。

Yeah. Okay. I I I gotta join this pillow. Pillow talk is a great category, by way.

原来你也对枕头有研究，太好了。

Know you're into you're into pillows too. That's great.

干杯！我就爱这种深入交流。很棒，真的。

Cheers. I love shredding. Nice. Yeah. Great.

但我确实升级了我的枕头。这不是那个什么枕头先生或那家伙对吧？就是那个，电视广告里的，

But I did upgrade my pillow. It's this is not mister pillar or whatever that guy is. Right? The it's that guy that, there's there's, like,

不是。

No.

广告里的枕头推销员。好吧。

Commercial pillow guy. Okay.

不。好吧。

No. Okay.

紫色枕头。我要问问AI模式。

Purple Pillow. I'm gonna ask AI mode.

对，你该问问。

Yeah. You should.

绝对要问。下一个问题。你有特别喜欢的人生格言吗？那种你不断回顾并在自己生活中实践的？

Definitely. Next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to and work your own life?

这就是‘保持好奇’。我差点把公司命名为‘好奇公司’。我认为这是生活中非常重要的一点——无论是完成任务、理解世界、了解他人、你的孩子还是家人。你总是想了解更多，质疑自身之外的事物，而不是觉得自己已经掌握所有答案。我觉得这非常关键。

And this is be curious. I think I almost named it company curious. I just think it's a really awesome, there's one thing in life, it's that, in terms of getting things done, in terms of understanding the world, people, your kids, your family. Like you always just wanna know more and question things outside yourself, not feel like you have all the answers. I think it's really important.

我很喜欢这个理念。最后一个问题：说到创业，你早年创立了Stamped公司，后来被雅虎收购。我听说有个故事——你们成功让贾斯汀·比伯入驻应用，这对应用的成功是个重大转折点。能讲讲这个故事吗？

I love that. Final question. Okay, so speaking of startups, you started a company called Stamped back in the day, it got acquired by Yahoo. I hear there's a story where you got Justin Bieber on your app, and that was a big deal, and a big inflection in the success of the app. Can you just tell that story?

是啊，这是个挺疯狂的故事。先交代下背景：当时我25岁，刚从谷歌辞职，和几个谷歌朋友在纽约做ICPM时创办了这家公司。早期阶段完全是个新手——某种程度上这也是好事。我们当时的理念是让用户给自己喜欢的事物‘盖章’，从朋友和信任的人那里获取推荐。

Yeah, it's kind of a wild story. So I was just like scene set a little bit. I was 25, Right after Google being an ICPM in New York with some Google friends building this company. So very early on, and maybe in a good way and no idea what I was doing. But basically we decided that the concept of stamp was to put your stamp on your favorite things, get recommendations from friends and from people that you trust.

你可以把它想象成推特信息流，但全是人们认为酷炫的东西——比如书籍、食品之类的。

And so you think of it like a Twitter feed, it's all stuff that people think is cool. Like books, food products.

没错，可能还有枕头。

Exactly. Pillows possibly.

枕头上也可以盖章然后被推荐。我们当时面临冷启动问题——需要先吸引一批有品位的种子用户。我们邀请了些厨师、文艺界人士，还想找些音乐人、艺术家这类有影响力的人物。

Pillows could be on there. I would totally stamp this pillow and then you could discover it. And one of the cold start problems was obviously like you want a group of people that are on it that are already using it that could have some tastemaker type folks. And so we had a bunch of people that were like chefs and we had people who were like kind of literary folks. And then we wanted to get a couple people that were more musicians, artists, and these kind of influential folks.

于是我和联合创始人直接联系了比伯的经纪人Scooter Braun，发了封邮件说：‘嘿，我们在纽约，明天会到洛杉矶’——我记得当时是这么说的。

And so my co founder and I just basically got the contact of Scooter Braun, who's Justin's manager, and we just sent him an email. We were like, hey. We're gonna we were in New York. Like, we're gonna be in LA tomorrow. I think we said something.

我不记得所有细节了，但大概是说明天之类的事。

I don't remember the all the details, but it was something like tomorrow.

你明天本来不会在洛杉矶？不。不。好吧。

And you were not gonna be in LA tomorrow? No. No. Okay.

你刚好在那儿吗？然后他就简单回了一句，比如约在这家酒店吃早餐什么的。我们就想，哦，好吧。于是我们立刻直奔机场，我记得基本上就是直接飞往洛杉矶去见了他。

Do you happen to be there? And he he just, like, wrote back some one line thing, like, meet me at this hotel, like, for breakfast at some thing. And we're like, oh, okay. So we literally went immediately to the airport. I just remember, like, just basically going straight to the airport, flying to LA, meeting with him.

我们向他完整展示了项目，展示了产品，然后他说，好的，觉得这个超酷。我们可以帮忙参与，或许你们能担任顾问。后来我们又回去见了贾斯汀，给他看了产品，甚至和他一起拍了些小视频片段。

We gave him the whole pitch. We showed him the product, and then he was like, okay. Think this would be super cool. We can help be involved, and maybe you can help be an adviser. And we ended up going back and meeting with Justin and showing him the product and even filming some little clips with him.

其实特别有趣，那一刻真的很欢乐。他显然在用这个功能标记他喜欢的东西，人们就会说'哦贾斯汀喜欢这首歌'或'他喜欢这个'然后转发。这也是我们吸引大量用户尝试我们产品的方式之一。

It was actually really funny. And it was a really fun moment. And he obviously like, he was using it to stamp his favorite stuff. And so people would go, Oh, Justin's into this song or he's into this stuff and would post that. And there's one of the ways that we got lots of people to try out and see what we were doing.

这就是那段特别敢拼的时光小插曲，但我觉得它体现了一个很好的经验：立刻行动，敢拼敢闯，保持紧迫感通常比长时间犹豫更能取胜，那次经历无疑验证了这一点。

So that's a little extra scrappy moment in time, but I think it embodies a good lesson. Just like, do it now, be scrappy, be immediate, like intense urgency usually wins over thinking about it for a long time, and that certainly proved to be true on that one.

精彩的故事。感谢分享，蕴含太多值得学习的经验。最后两个问题：如果想联系你或了解更多你在做的事，大家能在哪里找到你？听众们如何能对你有所帮助？

Incredible story. Thank you for sharing that. So many lessons to take away. Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they wanna reach out, maybe learn more about what you're doing, and how can listeners be useful to you?

是的，我认为在xRMStein可能是最佳的单点反馈渠道。为了提供帮助，请向我发送反馈。私信我、@我、提醒我，让我知道谷歌产品的问题、AI相关的问题，或者任何其他事情。正如我之前所说，必须始终倾听用户声音，理解他们的体验。所以请向我抛出想法和反馈，这是最有帮助的方式。

Yeah, I think on xRMStein is probably the best single place, and then to be helpful, send me feedback. DM me, just mention me, ping me, let me know problems with Google products, with with AI in general, but also just anything. As I said before, have to always listen to people, understand their experiences. So ping me ideas and feedback, that's the best way to be helpful.

哇，你即将收到关于搜索体验的海量反馈轰炸了。

Wow, what an onslaught you're about to receive of feedback on the search experience.

没错。尽管来吧，罗比。

Yes. Please do. Robbie.

罗比，为什么这个链接排在第二位？为什么我的网站不在顶部？我能想象人们会抱怨些什么。罗比，非常感谢你来到这里。

Robbie, why is this link second? Why is my site not at the top? I can only imagine the kind of stuff people complain about. Robbie, thank you so much for being here.

谢谢。这次交流很棒。

Thank you. It was great.

确实很棒。大家再见，保重。非常感谢你们的收听。如果觉得有价值，可以在苹果播客、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用订阅本节目。

It was great. Bye, everyone. Take care. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，这能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。你可以在lennyspodcast.com找到所有往期节目或了解更多信息。下期节目见。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.