为AI产品定价：来自400多家公司和50家独角兽的经验 | Madhavan Ramanujam

优秀的创始人必须能够同时掌控市场份额和钱包份额。这不是选择题，你需要在两方面都做得更好。

The good founders need to be able to dominate both market share and wallet share. It is not a choice. You need to get better at both.

如今似乎每家公司都想成为AI公司。AI产品的定价有何不同？

It feels like every company wants to be an AI company these days. How is AI pricing different?

AI领域的赢家需要从第一天就精通变现。如果你提供了巨大价值，却训练客户接受每月20美元的定价，就等于把自己锚定在低价区间——这会让你陷入困境。你构建的内容中，20%决定了80%的支付意愿。但讽刺的是，这20%往往是最容易构建的部分。

Winners in AI will need to master monetization from day one. If you're bringing a lot of value to the table and you started training your customers to expect $20 a month, then you anchored yourself on a low price point. You're in trouble. 20% of what you build drives 80% of the willingness to pay. But the irony is that that 20% is the easiest thing to build often.

你最希望创始人牢记的核心经验是什么？

What would you say is the biggest lesson you want founders to take away?

用2×2矩阵来思考市场份额和钱包份额：你真正要占据的是基于结果的定价模型象限（右上区域），那里同时具备高度自主性和强归因能力。大约5%的企业能真正实现基于结果的定价模型。若想赢得AI竞争，就必须找到通往这个象限的路径。

If you think about market share and wallet share, let's think about it as a two by two. The quadrant that you really want to be in is the outcome based pricing model, the top right quadrant, where you have great autonomy and great attribution. About 5% of companies are probably in a true outcome based pricing model. If you want to win in AI, figure out a way to get to that quadrant.

你认为流行的IDE初创公司未来会陷入困境吗？

Do you feel like the popular IDE startups are gonna be in trouble down the road?

某些确实会，在此就不点名了。

Some of them, yes, without naming names.

今天的嘉宾是Madhavan Ramanujam。他是我认识的在定价和变现策略领域最睿智的人。作为Simon Kutcher管理合伙人，他协助过250多家企业（包括30家独角兽）解决产品定价、包装和增长问题。他还是《创新变现》的作者，如今带着续作《规模化创新》回归，教你如何构建长期盈利增长的商业架构，并避开那些阻碍企业建立真正持久商业模式的常见陷阱。Bill Gurley为本书作序。

Today, my guest is Madhavan Ramanujam. Madhavan is the smartest person I know on pricing and monetization strategy. As managing partner at Simon Kutcher, he's worked with over 250 companies, including 30 unicorns, to help them figure out how to price, package, and grow their products. He's also the author of the book on pricing called monetizing innovation, and now he's back with a new book, a sequel, called scaling innovation, which teaches you how to architect your business for long term profitable growth and also how to avoid the common traps that teams fall into that keep them from building real, durable, sustainable businesses. Bill Gurley wrote the forward.

我有幸提前阅读，这本书令我受益匪浅，是每位创始人的必读之作。本期节目中，Madhavan分享了书中的核心经验：AI公司定价策略的独特性、当今市场必须从起步就确立正确定价模型的原因、选择定价模型的简易2×2矩阵、获取定价权的技巧、高效谈判的实用建议、创始人最常坠入的陷阱等。订购5本书的读者将有机会赢得与Madhavan免费对话、签名书、发布会邀请函、T恤等福利。

I had a chance to read an early copy. I absolutely loved it. It's a book that every founder needs to read. And in this episode, Madhavan shares many of the biggest lessons from the book, including how pricing strategy is very different for AI companies, why you need to get your pricing model right from the start in today's market, a very simple two by two to help you pick your pricing model, how to gain pricing power, a ton of tactical advice for negotiating more effectively, the most common traps founders fall into, and so much more. If you order five copies of the book, Matavon is offering a chance to win a free conversation with them, a signed copy of the book, an invite to the book launch, a t shirt, and more.

只需将购买凭证发送至promo@fortyninepalmsvc.com。另有好消息：Madhavan现已离开Simon Kutcher，全身心投入自己的基金进行投资，专注于早期AI公司。

Just send a copy of your purchase receipt to promo at forty nine palms v c dot com. And some more good news, Matavon is now more accessible. He left Simon Kutcher. He's now investing full time with his own fund. He focuses on early stage AI companies.

若想与他合作，请访问49palmsvc.com了解详情。喜欢本期播客的话，别忘了在您常用的播客应用或YouTube上订阅关注。接下来有请马拉文·拉马努贾姆。本期节目由Interpret赞助播出。Interpret是一个客户智能平台，被Canva、Notion、Perplexity、Strava、Hinge和Linear等领先的客户体验产品团队用于整合客户之声，打造一流产品。

If you wanna work with him, check him out at 49palmsvc.com. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. With that, I bring you Maravon Ramanujam. This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret is a customer intelligence platform used by a leading CXN product orgs like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, Strava, Hinge, and Linear to leverage the voice of the customer and build best in class products.

Interpret能实时整合所有客户对话——从Gong录音到Zendesk工单再到Twitter话题讨论，并供您的团队分析决策。其独特之处在于能构建并更新客户专属知识图谱，提供最精细准确的客户反馈分类，并将这些反馈与收入、客户满意度等关键指标关联。若像Canva、Notion、Perplexity和Linear这些以客户为中心的行业领袖一样，将客户之声项目现代化升级列为2025年重点事项，请联系interpret.com/leni团队。今天这期节目还由DX赞助播出。

Interpret unifies all customer conversations in real time from Gong recordings to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads and makes it available for your team for analysis and for action. What makes Interpret unique is its ability to build and update a customer specific knowledge graph that provides the most granular and accurate categorization of all customer feedback and connects that customer feedback to critical metrics like revenue and CSAT. If modernizing your voice of customer program to a generational upgrade is a 2025 priority, like customer centric industry leaders like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, and Linear, reach out to the team at interpret dot com slash leni. That's e n t e r p r e t dot com slash leni. Today's episode is brought to you by DX.

如果您是工程负责人或平台团队成员，CEO迟早会要求您提供生产力指标。但衡量工程团队绩效绝非易事，单纯统计PR数量或提交次数显然无法反映全貌。DX应运而生——这个由DORA和SPACE框架研究者等顶尖专家设计的工程智能解决方案，通过结合开发者工具的量化数据与开发者的质性反馈，为您全面呈现工程生产力及其影响因素。

If you're an engineering leader or on a platform team, at some point, your CEO will inevitably ask you for productivity metrics. But measuring engineering organizations is hard, and we can all agree that simple metrics like the number of PRs or commits doesn't tell the full story. That's where DX comes in. DX is an engineering intelligence solution designed by leading researchers, including those behind the DORA and SPACE frameworks. It combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivity and the factors affecting it.

了解为何Etsy、Dropbox、Twilio、Vercel和Webflow等世界知名企业都信赖DX。访问getdx.com/leny。马哈万，非常感谢您作客本期节目。

Learn why some of the world's most iconic companies like Etsy, Dropbox, Twilio, Vercel, and Webflow rely on DX. Visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny. Madhavan, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

很高兴再次来到节目，莱尼。非常感谢你的邀请。

It's exciting to be back, Lenny. Thanks so much for hosting me again.

这是我们播客罕见的二次访谈。您即将出版新书，我手上这本是超早期样书——YouTube观众可以看到您寄给我的这本，大概有200页。

This is a a very rare second visit to the podcast. You've got a new book coming out. I've got a very early copy right here. If you're watching on YouTube, here's the copy you sent me. It's like 200 pages.

顺便问下，这是您自己用打印机打印的吗？

Did you print this out on your printer, by the way?

没错，印完这本我的打印机墨水估计都耗尽了。

Yes. I think I ran out of printer ink after that, I guess.

非常感谢提前寄来的样书，内容非常精彩。本次对话我们将探讨您书中分享的重要经验，让听众了解您自首部著作问世后的诸多心得。第一个问题是：为什么决定再写一本书？

I appreciate the early copy. It's amazing. What we're gonna be doing with this conversation is going through some of the biggest lessons that you share in this book to give people a sense of many of the things that you share, many things you've learned since writing the first book. Let me start with this question. Why did you decide to write another book?

《规模化创新》（本书书名）与首部著作《盈利式创新》的核心区别是什么？

And what is the difference between Scaling Innovation, which is the name of this book, and Monetizing Innovation is the name of their first book?

《创新变现》这本书，我们实际上是在八年前写的，时光飞逝。那本书的核心论点是：如何打造不仅酷炫，更是人们真正需要并愿意付费的产品。这个理念后来有了自己的生命力。多年来，创业者们不断问我们另一个问题：‘我们做出了好产品。'

So, Monetizing Innovation, we actually wrote it eight years ago, time flies. And the core thesis of that book was, you know, how do you build products that are not just cool, but are products that people need value and are actually willing to pay for. And I think that took a life of its own. And over the years, we kept getting another question from entrepreneurs that, hey. We built a great product.

我们知道有付费意愿，但如何构建一个伟大的企业？如何实现规模化？残酷的现实是，即便产品出色，也可能找不到快速且盈利的增长路径。因此我们写下《规模化创新》来解答这个难题。你可以视其为《创新变现》的续篇——前者讲述如何打造好产品，

We know there is willingness to pay, but how do we build a great business? How do we scale this? And the brutal truth is that even if you have a great product, you might actually not figure out a way to grow fast and grow profitably. So we wrote scaling innovation in an effort to actually solve that puzzle. So you can think of this as a sequel to monetizing innovation, and monetizing innovation talked about how to build great products.

后者则探讨如何建立伟大企业。写书必须有其意义。对我而言，写书的初衷是将所知回馈给创业者们。著书不易，写好书更难。

Scaling innovation talks about how to build a great business. And, you know, writing a book is there needs to be a purpose for this. For me, the reason for writing books is about giving a bit back based on what I know to founders. And book writing is hard. Writing a good book is even harder.

与《创新变现》一样，《规模化创新》绝非营销噱头，而是蕴含可立即落地的实操方法。我们写这本书，既为分享所知，也助力企业设计盈利增长路径。

And just like monetizing innovation, scaling innovation is not marketing fluff. It actually has real actionable stuff packed in that you can go on Monday morning and start implementing. And we wrote this book to give back a bit of what we know and to help companies scale and architect towards profitable growth.

我敬佩像你这样深耕数十载、反复从实践中汲取经验并无私分享的人。这才是最高效的学习方式——由你们探索答案再传授给我们。正因如此我热爱这些书。若要将本书核心凝练成一句话植入创业者脑海，会是什么？

I love people like you that do the work for, I don't know, decades at this point, learn from real life experiences over and over and over, and then just share all this stuff with people. Like, this is the most Thank you. The highest ROI way to learn is letting you do all this work to learn all these things and then you share all your answers with us. So that's that's why I love these books. If you had to boil down the thesis of this book into just like a simple thought so that we can just start to plant this in founders heads, what would what would that be?

若需提炼本书核心，那就是：要建立持久企业，必须设计盈利增长体系。这意味着需驾驭两个引擎——市场份额与钱包份额。表面简单实则复杂：要实现这两点，必须精通获客、变现与留存。即获取客户、初期盈利、持续变现及客户转介。许多公司却采取单引擎策略，

So if I have to boil down the core thesis of the book, it is basically that if you want to build an enduring business, you need to be able to architect towards profitable growth. What that means is you need to be able to master two engines, market share and wallet share. It sounds simple on the surface, but it's actually quite complex because if you unpack that, for gaining market share and wallet share, you need to be good at acquisition, monetization, and retention. As in get customers, make an initial money on them, but also make money on an ongoing basis and have your customers actually refer more customers. Many companies, actually, what they do is they focus on a single engine strategy.

只专注其中一个而忽略另一个。这导致各种困境：有的不惜代价追求增长推迟变现，有的过早变现错失获客机会，还有的过度维护小批忠实客户却既不变现也不拓客。优秀创业者必须同时掌控市场份额与钱包份额。

So they focus on one of those two topics and pretty much exclude the other one. That leads to all kinds of situations. You see companies saying, I'll grow at all costs and postpone monetization. You see some who would say, know, I'm gonna monetize earlier on, but they might miss out on acquisition opportunities, or yet others who are so focused on a small set of loyal customer base that they're neither monetizing nor are they actually acquiring. So to to the good founders need to be able to dominate both market share and wallet share.

这不是选择题，两者都需精进。但并非要求时刻均分精力，而是保持对两者的同等关注，审慎权衡：如何协同推进以实现盈利增长？这就是本书核心。我们展示了九种帮助企业设计盈利增长的策略，

It is not a choice. You need to get better at both. But this does not mean that you're putting equal effort on market share and wallet share at all given points in time, but it means you're putting equal attention on both those topics and being thoughtful about the trade offs and saying, how can I actually look at these two topics together so that I'm architecting towards profitable growth? That's the core thesis of the book. We actually showcase nine strategies that actually allow companies, you know, to architect towards profitable growth.

每章结尾都阐释该策略如何规避单引擎陷阱，同步提升市场份额与钱包份额。书中还包含CEO们设计盈利增长时需反思的关键问题。试想：你会让飞机单引擎飞行吗？为何要让企业冒此风险？

And every chapter ends with how this particular strategy, you know, circumvents a single engine problem and helps you, you know, focus on market share and wallet share at the same time. And there's also CEO questions and leadership questions that people should reflect on when they architect towards profitable growth and are they on the right track. I mean, think of it this way. If you're flying a, you know, aircraft, you don't want to fly it on one engine. Why do you actually want to do that for your business?

我猜很多创业者并不认为自己非此即彼。直觉上没人会说‘我们永远只追求增长’。但你提到的这些陷阱确实存在。

Okay. So, I imagine many founders or people thinking about starting a company are are not feeling like they are in one bucket or another. There's like intuitively, you're not like, of course, we're gonna just focus on growth forever. And that's all that matters. You had these kind of traps that founders fall into that you referenced a bit.

能否再谈谈创始人常陷入的那些普遍陷阱？人们可能会恍然大悟——靠，这不就是我正在犯的错误吗。

Can you just talk again about just like the common traps you find founders fall into that people may recognize like, Shit, that's what I'm doing probably.

让我们剖析与原型相关的陷阱。如果你是颠覆者类型，可能会陷入两种陷阱之一。第一种是立足却难以扩张——由于急于获取用户，你可能在低价出让过多权益，最终导致无扩展空间。

So, let's unpack the traps that are correlated to the archetypes. So, if you're a disruptor archetype, you might fall into one of two traps. The first one is you might land, but you might not expand. As in your eagerness for acquiring, you might have actually given away a lot at less, and you have given the farm away, but you don't have anything to expand to. That's the first trap you're likely to fall into.

第二种陷阱是：赢得的市场份额不等于守住的市场份额。如果只关注获客，却不愿花时间维系客户、追加销售或提升满意度，就会陷入此局。若是盈利型创始人，则易犯两种错误：其一是对客户锱铢必较。

The second trap that you actually fall into is you start, you know, a market share that is won is different from a market share that is actually held. If you're so acquisition focused, you're actually focused on getting more and more customers, but you're not spending enough time with customers that you actually got to keep them, upsell them, you know, keep them happy, etcetera. So you might fall into that trap. If you're a moneymaker, you fall into one of two traps. The first one is you might nickel and dime your customers to death.

由于过度关注变现，可能设计复杂定价模型：差异费率、隐藏收费、多重项目，最终给客户留下斤斤计较的印象。其二则是陷入高价悖论——误以为高定价等同高价值，实则超出市场承受力。社区建设者则常面临两重陷阱：过度关注基础用户而忽视开拓新客群。

You know, because you're focused on monetization, you might come up with a, you know, very differentiated pricing model, different levers, hidden fees, things to charge for, you know, many different things and come across as just trying to nickel and dime your customer. The second trap that a moneymaker actually falls into is that, you know, you fall into the price premium paradox, where you think that pricing high actually indicates value, but you're priced it so high that you actually start, you know, hurting your acquisition. So it just becomes irrelevant for most people. If you're in the community builder, you actually fall into like two common traps. The first one is you're focused so much on the foundation that you actually miss the frontier, which is you're so focused on your loyal customer base that you forget forget to, like, attract, you know, different types of customers and you're not acquiring.

社区建设者的第二陷阱是培养客户期待'少付多得'。因急于满足核心用户，不断追加福利，反而惯坏最优质客户群体。这六类陷阱在各原型中极为常见。要成为盈利增长架构师，就必须规避这些陷阱，同时兼具颠覆者、盈利者和社区建设者三重特质。

And the second trap that you fall into if you're a community builder is, you know, you train your customers to expect more for less. Because you're so eager to satisfy your loyal base, you start giving them more and more, and you're trading your best customer base to expect more for less. So these six traps are very common across these archetypes. Being a profitable growth architect means that you're avoiding these traps. And you're in in other words, you're simultaneously being a disruptor, a moneymaker, and a community builder all at the same time.

如何兼具这种复合原型并实施正确商业策略？

And how do you actually have that archetype and the right strategies to actually go about your business?

明白，这些都是需要规避的。你提到有九大策略涉及定价、变现、规模化与创新，能否分享其中两三个最推荐的？

Okay. So this is what you want to not do. You mentioned you have nine strategies for how you actually want to approach pricing, monetization, scaling, monetization, and and innovation. Can you share a couple of these strategies, maybe two or three, maybe some of your favorites?

当然。先说第一条'极致简约定价'——早期阶段，简单的定价方案能极大降低销售摩擦。周一大可直接测试：让潜在客户复述你们的定价策略。

Sure. So I will unpack a couple of, you know, strategies. Maybe the first one I would take is what we call as beautifully simple pricing. So in your early days, it is by far more important to have pricing that is really simple and is not creating too much friction in the sales conversation. I mean, the acid test that you probably should go back on Monday morning and do is take some of your early prospects or customers and ask them to articulate the pricing strategy back to you.

试想他们代为销售时会如何描述？如果无法用简单话语解释清楚，就说明定价策略不够直观。简约定价还要求能传递价值叙事，让价格反映真实创造的价值。

Right? If they were to actually sell on your behalf, how would they describe the pricing strategy? And if they cannot, contextualize that in a simple manner and actually explain, you don't have a simple pricing strategy. It's as simple as that. And having a simple pricing strategy also means that, you know, your pricing needs to be able to tell a value story, as in you need to contextualize your price based on the value that you actually bring to the table.

Superhuman就是典范。当初面对免费邮件产品的竞争，他们以30美元月费定价讲述价值故事：每日1美元换回每周4小时生产力提升——相当于用一周咖啡钱买回半天高效时长，顿时让价格显得合理。

A great example here is, you know, Superhuman. When they started, they were actually competing with, like, free email products, and they were coming up with a premium email experience, and how do you actually price that? And I thought the team at Superhuman with Rahul and others did a pretty good job. They came up with a $30 price point per month, which was pretty simple, but the way they kind of told the story was that, you you pay a dollar a day for actually getting four hours of productivity back in the week, and then suddenly the pricing doesn't look too off. I mean, it's like the price for a latte in a week to actually get four hours back.

我为何不真的这么做呢？对吧？价格情境化和价值叙事不仅适用于高端产品。再比如赛百味的五美元长条三明治，就是用定价讲述故事的另一种方式——花5美元，你实际上能获得超值回报。对吧？

Why wouldn't I actually do that? Right? And pricing contextualization and value story doesn't need to just apply for premium products. If you take another example, like the Subway five dollar footlong, it's a different way to say a story with pricing that, oh, for $5, you get a lot of value actually back. Right?

因此，真正优美的简约定价意味着制定一个客户立即理解的简单策略，让价格本身讲述价值故事。如何实现这一点？书中我们提供了包含10个要点的清单，确保你的定价达到简约之美。

So beautifully simple pricing really means coming up with a simple pricing strategy that your customers immediately get, and your pricing is actually telling a value story. And how do you actually get that? So in the book, we have a checklist of 10 different things that you actually need to look at to make sure that your pricing is beautifully simple.

在讨论这些策略时，你是建议全部尝试吗？比如尽可能多实施这些策略，还是选择适合的几种，或者仅用其一就够了？

As we go through these strategies, is your advice try all these things? Like, you should do as many of these strategies as you can, or is it maybe pick a few that work for you, or just one is enough?

总共有九大策略。我们将其分为创业阶段适用的策略（起步期）和扩张期策略。创业阶段需实施四项，扩张期五项。虽然四项创业策略和五项扩张策略都适用，但不需要从一开始就同时关注所有九项。

So, are nine strategies. We have organized that into strategies that apply during your startup phase, like just when you get started, and strategies that apply to you in your scale up phase. So there are four strategies that you need to do in your startup and five in the scale up. So it's quite manageable. I would argue that all four apply in the startup and all five actually apply in the scale up phase, but it's not like you need to start focusing on nine things from day one.

所以第一个阶段是创业期。

So this first one was the startup phase.

没错，简约之美定价属于创业期策略。扩张阶段最重要的策略之一是掌握谈判技巧，尤其在B2B场景中。关键在于学会在谈判中阐释价值，并根据对话情境调整报价。

Yeah, the beautifully simple pricing is the startup one. Exactly. And so in the scale up phase, I think one of the most important strategies is to like, you know, master negotiations and really get better at acing negotiations, right, especially if you're in a b to b situation. And how do you actually do that? Because you need to be able to talk about the value and contextualize your price based on those kind of conversations.

掌握谈判可归纳为三点：精通交换条件、擅长价值销售、制定正确谈判策略。先说交换条件——其重要性在于，谈判中通常是你做出让步。若单方面妥协，等于默许对方持续施压；而有来有往的交换能为谈判注入真实性，显著提升效率。书中列举了B2B和B2C领域各十大可交换条件。

So to master negotiations, it comes down to actually three things. Mastering gives and gets, being good at value selling, and third, having the right negotiation strategies. So let's unpack them each at a time. So giving and getting, why is that important? Because in a negotiation, you know, typically you're giving.

B2B谈判中我最推崇的是'价值审计'条款。即：给出让步时，要求客户每半年组建内部团队评估产品价值，共同量化实际产出。这能为你未来的重新谈判积累巨大议价权——因为这是客户自主倡导的业务案例，同时增强产品黏性。看似温和的条款，却能产生深远影响。

I mean, you're giving concessions, people are asking. If you don't get anything back, you're basically indicating to the other person that they can keep beating you up and you can, you know, you you need to keep giving. But if you're giving something but you ask for something in exchange, then you're basically bringing authenticity into the negotiation because it actually means something to you to give, so you're asking something back. It actually makes the negotiation way more effective. And in the book, we actually talk about the top 10 gets in B2B and the top 10 gets in B2C.

因此，精通交换条件至关重要。谈判精进的第二要点是价值销售，这需要做到三点：首先，必须善于创造需求...

One of my favorite gets in the B2B situation is what I call as conducting a value audit. So what this means is if you're giving a concession, ask for a value audit in exchange where every six months, you know, a team internally from your customers would be commissioned to actually conduct a value assessment of your products so that it becomes their business case and you co create it with them saying how much value is actually produced. And this is great because if they actually engage in that, that gives you tremendous pricing power for, like, renegotiations because it is their business case. They are championing it internally, and you're pretty much making your products pretty sticky. So it's a pretty harmless get, but it could be very powerful for, like, you know, future negotiations.

So being good at gives and gets is thank you. For being good at gives and gets is really, you know, critical. The second thing in mastering negotiations is being good at value selling. And for being good at value selling, you need to do three things. First, you need to be able to create the needs.

So being good at gives and gets is thank you. For being good at gives and gets is really, you know, critical. The second thing in mastering negotiations is being good at value selling. And for being good at value selling, you need to do three things. First, you need to be able to create the needs.

其次，你需要能够建立肯定循环。第三点是构建一个良好的投资回报率模型。让我们逐一讨论这些要点。创造需求非常重要，因为许多创始人一上来就试图理解客户的需求，这只是看待问题的一种方式。

Second, you need to be able to create affirmation loops. And the third one is creating a good ROI model. And let's talk about each of those. So, creating needs is very important because, you know, many founders show up and try to understand what are the needs of the customers. That's one way to look at it.

但你需要能够创造需求，而非仅仅发现它们。例如，如果你是一款营销自动化AI产品，能节省原本需要三周时间才能完成的将数据整合至仪表盘供营销经理分析的工作。创造需求的方式是询问现有流程：'为了理解清楚，这些工作确实需要花费三周时间整理数据才能生成对营销经理有意义的可操作仪表盘对吗？如果这些能即时提供呢？'瞧，你刚刚就创造了一个需求。

But you need to be able to create needs rather than just discover them. Right? So, like, for instance, if you're a marketing automation AI product and you save, let's say, three weeks of work that actually needs to be done to actually get stuff in a dashboard that can be analyzed by marketing managers, the way you create the need is ask about existing processes and say, Okay, just so I understand, all of this stuff actually takes you three weeks to, like, put data together to actually have meaningful dashboards for your, you know, marketing managers to, you know, take action. What if that was available to you instantaneously? Oh, you have now just created a need.

要始终保持创造需求的思维，而非被动发现。第二点是建立肯定循环，这极为关键。我见过许多创始人在谈判中过于急切地推销产品。

Right? So be in that mindset of creating a need as opposed to just discovering them. The second thing is creating affirmation loops, and this is really important. I've seen a lot of founders get into negotiations. They're so eager to talk about their products.

他们不断介绍产品却未获得对方任何肯定。你需要暂停并构建肯定循环，比如：'目前为止您已了解这些功能，它们在实际业务中如何体现？您认为这有价值吗？这个仪表盘的哪些部分真正吸引您？'当客户反馈他们从产品中看到的价值时，你就建立了肯定循环——这对最终销售阶段极其重要，因为如果他们已认可产品价值，商业谈判也会更顺利。

They keep talking about the products without any affirmation from the other side. You need to pause and create affirmation loops. Things like, for instance, okay, so far you've seen all of this. How does this actually play out in your company? Do you see it as valuable?

第三点是构建优质ROI模型。常见误区是创始人在概念验证(POC)结束后才出示ROI模型并试图辩护定价——这已注定失败。临时拼凑的ROI模型无人信服，所有人都会质疑假设条件。正确做法是从第一天就与客户共同构建模型，比如：'当前这个流程耗时多久？需要多少工程师？'通过这些问题收集ROI模型的输入参数。当客户认可所有前提数据时，他们几乎不会反对最终的ROI结论。

What about this dashboard do you actually like? So when you ask these kind of questions and your customers are playing back the value that they actually see in your product, you're creating affirmation loops, which become tremendously useful when you start selling the product finally because if they have agreed that there's value that is being produced, then you also have a better commercial discussion. And the third one is creating a good ROI model. And I see a lot of founders work on a POC, and after the POC is over, they'll show up with an ROI model and try to defend a price. You've already lost the battle.

必须明确POC的目的是共同构建商业案例，而非单纯的技术功能测试。构建ROI模型时要聚焦三大关键维度：第一是基于客户现有KPI的增量收益（如新增收入、降低流失率），这是产品带来的直接商业影响；第二是可量化的成本节省（如减少人力或授权费用）；第三常被忽视的机会成本——例如为团队节省的10小时能创造什么价值？综合这三个维度才能建立具有说服力的定价防御模型。

I mean, no one is going to believe an ROI model that you just cooked up. Everyone is going to challenge you on assumptions. The right way to think about an ROI model is to actually co create it with your customers from day one, which means, you know, agree and validate on the assumptions and the inputs. So like, hey, how long does this process take today? How many engineers are there?

总结谈判精进的三个步骤：首先是得失权衡，其次是价值销售能力提升，最后是谈判策略运用。我们已验证有几项策略特别有效...

So you create, ask questions that are all inputs to an ROI model. And if you have done that process and the customer agrees on all the inputs, they are very unlikely to push back on the output of an ROI model. So a POC needs to be framed as the purpose of a POC is to build a business case, and we are going to co create an ROI model with the customer as opposed to it being a, you know, tech and product functionality feature test, and you show up with an ROI model. And when you're building an ROI model, there are many buckets to focus on, but there are three that are very critical. The first one is, you know, what are the incremental gains that you actually bring to the table based on KPIs and metrics that your customer is tracking?

So this could be things like incremental revenue, reduction in churn. These are the immediate, tangible, clear impact to the business line based on the products that you actually bring to the table. The second bucket is, you know, cost savings. Are you reducing headcount? Are you reducing license costs?

So this could be things like incremental revenue, reduction in churn. These are the immediate, tangible, clear impact to the business line based on the products that you actually bring to the table. The second bucket is, you know, cost savings. Are you reducing headcount? Are you reducing license costs?

Like, what are the tangible cost savings? And the third one, which is often overlooked, is opportunity cost. For instance, if you save, you know, ten hours of time for, like, a team, what do they actually do with that ten hours? That can also be quantified. So when you put all of these three things together, you start building a proper ROI model that you can actually use in your value selling to defend the right price.

Like, what are the tangible cost savings? And the third one, which is often overlooked, is opportunity cost. For instance, if you save, you know, ten hours of time for, like, a team, what do they actually do with that ten hours? That can also be quantified. So when you put all of these three things together, you start building a proper ROI model that you can actually use in your value selling to defend the right price.

And the so we talked about three steps in mastering negotiations. The first one was gives and gets. The second one was getting better at value selling. The third one is actually getting better at even negotiations and what strategies would you actually use. And there are a couple of strategies that we have found to be really productive.

And the so we talked about three steps in mastering negotiations. The first one was gives and gets. The second one was getting better at value selling. The third one is actually getting better at even negotiations and what strategies would you actually use. And there are a couple of strategies that we have found to be really productive.

首要策略是提供多种选择。许多创业者急于推出一款产品和一个价格，声称：‘这是一款10万美元的产品，我们正试图销售它。’这样做的结果往往是对话立即聚焦在价格上，导致仅围绕价格展开讨论。但如果你能提供多个选项，比如‘基础版、升级版、尊享版’，或者10万、20万、30万美元的不同方案，对话就不再局限于价格，而是转向价值探讨。因为预算有限的客户可能会说：‘我喜欢10万美元的价位，但其实更中意20万产品中的功能。’

The first one is to show up with options. Many founders rush with one product and one price and say, Okay, this is a 100 ks product, and that's what we are trying to sell. Inevitably, what will happen is the immediate focus of the conversation will be on the price, and you're only talking about price. But if you have options on the table, let's say if you have a good, better, best, if you have a 100 ks product, a 200 ks, and a 300 ks option, then you're not just talking price, you're talking value. Because if your customer is budget conscious, they'd say, hey, like the 100 k price point, but I actually like the functionality in your 200 k product.

这时你就能顺势追问：‘具体是哪些功能吸引了您？对您有什么实际益处？’从而将对话拉回价值层面而非价格。我们观察到，这类对话往往能达成比单一产品报价更优的结果。提供选择也不仅限于不同产品——

Then your immediate question is, what in that functionality do you actually like? Why is that beneficial for you? So you switch the conversation back to, like, you know, value as opposed to just talking about price. And we have seen that with these kind of conversations, you're by far more better off to actually land in a much better place than just showcasing one product and one price. And showcasing options doesn't need to be just different products.

甚至可以设计不同的定价模式。这里分享个周一就能实操的技巧：有位创始人告诉我：‘根据关键决策者的暗示，预算大概是10万美元。但我的产品实际能创造巨大价值，本可以定价50万美元，可我没勇气开这个价。’

It could even be a pricing model choice. And I'd probably give a simple hack that people can try on Monday morning. I was talking to this founder who said, Hey, I think the budget is about 100 k. That's what I believe from the key stakeholder. But my product really brings crazy value.

对此类情况，我们建议在定价模式中设置选项。最终指导他提出两种方案：一是10万美元基础价+所创造增量价值的10%分成；二是直接50万美元固定价格。

I could even charge, let's say, a 500 k for this product, but I don't have the courage to actually go and ask for a 500 ks price because I kind of know 100 ks is the budget. What should I do? Right? So for those kind of situations, actually show up with options in your pricing model. So we coached him to go in with a 100 ks plus 10% on any incremental value that you bring, or it's a 500 ks fixed.

这实际上创造了绝佳的谈判局面：价格敏感型客户会关注10万的低启动成本，而对话自然转向‘10%如何计算？价值如何衡量？’这类关于价值创造的深度讨论——

So, now, this is actually a great situation in negotiation because if you're price sensitive, you're focused on the 100 ks. It's a small fee to actually get started. But the conversation will gravitate towards what is that 10%? How do you measure value? That's a great conversation to have because now you're talking about how you add value, where's the value generation, what portion would you take?

通常会出现两种结果：客户要么赞赏这种风险共担模式选择‘10万+10%’方案；要么80%的情况下，买方虽不愿接受分成模式，但此时注意力已不在50万高价上——

And, you know, you see one of two situations. Either the customer will say, That's great. You're putting skin in the game. Let's go with 100 ks and 10%. Or 80% of the situations, you might actually want to avoid the outcome based pricing as a buyer, but you're not really fixated on the 500 ks at that point.

他们实际是在为确定性支付溢价。由于桌上有10万选项作对比，没人会紧盯50万报价。在这个案例中，最终50万被谈至40万成交，远优于原本可能的结果。谈判时准备多种选项至关重要。

It is the premium that you're actually paying for, like, the certainty. So no one is focusing on the 500 ks because of the 100 ks option on the table, and you just put a 500 ks and got the courage to do that. And in this specific situation, that 500 ks got negotiated to 400 ks, and they just forex the deal compared to where they would be. Right? So having options on the table when you negotiate is critical.

书中还介绍了锚定效应等技巧：初始高价能拉高最终成交价。另外要注意让步节奏——最差的谈判者会先让5%，被拒后再让10%，继而15%...

And there's also some tactics that we showcase in the book, like anchoring is important. If you start high, you will also end up higher. But the and also tapering concessions. Like, how do you give concessions? I mean, the worst negotiators will start by giving, you know, a small concession, and then they give a bit more when someone asks.

这等于告诉对方：‘继续施压就能获得更大折扣’。而高手会设置让步梯度，比如直接给出15%的最终让步空间。

Like, you might give a 5% discount. And the procurement guy says, that's not enough. Okay, I'll give you 10% more. Okay, that's not enough. I'll give you 15.

（注：ks代表千美元，译文保留数字单位不作换算）

What are you indicating to the other person? You're just basically indicating that I can keep beating you up and I can get more discounts. The best negotiators would taper their concessions. So they would say, can give you a 15%. Okay.

我需要更多。我给你五个。我需要更多。我给你两个。这样你实际上是在向对方暗示谈判即将结束。

I need more. I'll give you five. I need more. I'll give you two. So you're automatically indicating to the other person that the negotiation is actually ending.

对吧？所以如何逐步减少让步也很重要。当你能将这三件事结合起来——掌握给予与获取、提升价值销售能力、运用正确谈判策略——你就能从每笔交易中榨取最大价值。这在企业扩张阶段尤为重要。

Right? So how do you taper concessions also become important. So when you put all of these three things together, if you master your gives and gets, you get better at value selling, and you use the right negotiation strategy, you can extract full value from every deal. That's probably way more important when you're in the scale up phase.

这建议太棒了。我特别喜欢这还只是你书里的一个小章节。这种谈判技巧能决定企业的成败。有趣的是，在一本讲创新扩张和企业成长的书里，你专门用完整章节讲谈判。是因为定价和盈利模式深受谈判水平影响吗？这直接关系到整个定价结构和利润空间吧？

This is such great advice. I love that this is just one small chapter of your book. Like this could make or break your company. It's interesting that you have a whole thing on negotiation in a book about scaling innovation and growing your company. Is the assumption here that your pricing and monetization is so impacted by how well you negotiate because that changes your entire pricing structure and how much you're making?

所以你才在这部分下这么大功夫？

Is that why you put so much effort into this part?

没错。在B2B场景中，你可以设定任何定价模型，但最终仍是人与人的谈判。如果你无法将方案价值情境化，不懂如何围绕价值谈判、合理定价，就等于在桌上留了大量钱没拿。对我们来说，谈判本身就是盈利课题——要从每笔交易中榨取全部价值。这不仅是'把老板留在家'之类的谈判技巧。

Exactly. I mean, in a B2B situation, you can set all the pricing you want, come up with great pricing models, but at least even today, it's a human having a human conversation trying to negotiate. So, if you cannot contextualize what you put on the table, how do you negotiate around value, how do you contextualize your price, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. So, to us, negotiations is yet another monetization topic where you're thinking about it as extracting full value from every deal. And this is not just negotiation tactics like keep your boss at home and just negotiate and things like that.

这是真正植根于价值销售的谈判策略，通过给予与获取的平衡，专注于从每笔交易中获得最大价值。

This is actual negotiation strategies that are rooted on value selling, gives and gets, and focusing on extracting full value from every deal.

太实用了。抛出第三个高价选项（比如50万美金）这个主意真有意思。通常听到的建议都是直接翻倍报价碰运气，但这让人很心虚对吧？而你说的方法就轻松多了——先抛出50万套餐说明价值，对方可能直接说'这正是我们想要的'，然后你发现'哇居然奏效了'。

So useful. This idea of throwing out a third, like, higher priced option, say 500 k. It's so interesting because usually the advice I hear is like, just throw out twice the number you used to throw out, just like put it out there just in case, which is really scary, right? To ask for like, what about $50,000 And this is like a much less scary way of doing that. Okay.

我们还有这个50万美金的方案，包含这些服务。然后他们可能会说，哦，这正是我们需要的。你就会想，哇，居然成功了。

But we also have this 500 ks option, here's what you get. And then they may be like, Oh, that's exactly what we want. And you're like, Oh, wow, it worked.

正是。这是个让你鼓起勇气的简单技巧。

Exactly. It's a very simple hack to get your courage.

太酷了。

Is so cool.

价格点。

Price point.

哇，这太棒了。这简直是金玉良言中的金玉良言。好，那么你有九种策略。

Wow. This is awesome. This is just like a golden nugget within golden nuggets of advice. Okay. So you have nine strategies.

我们已经讨论过其中两种。不过先不深入探讨，能否再简单列举几个，让大家知道还能学到些什么？

We've covered two. Let's not get into them, but just what are a few more just so people know what else they might be able to learn?

当然。我们会探讨如何设计最佳免费产品以实现'落地即扩展'，讨论正确的产品包装策略，如何在客户流失发生前阻止它，以及如何有效实施涨价策略——因为在企业规模化过程中，涨价是必经之路，但如何做到有策略地涨价？这些策略既适用于初创期也适用于扩张期，组合运用能帮助企业规划通向盈利性增长的路径。

Sure. We talk about how to, you know, land and expand, as in how to design your best free product in such a way that you're landing but also expanding. We talk about things like how to have the right packaging strategy, you know, how to stop churn before it happens, how to do price increases effectively, because at some point in your scale up journey, you need to increase price, but how do you do that in a meaningful fashion? So we have various strategies that apply both for the startup and the scale up phase, but in combination, all of those things help you articulate and architect towards profitable growth.

太精彩了。接下来我们聊聊AI。你的书中大量提到AI定价与传统定价策略截然不同。如今似乎每家公司都想成为AI企业。

Awesome. Okay. Let's talk about AI for a bit. A lot of your book is about how AI pricing is very different from other previous traditional pricing strategies. And it feels like every company wants to be an AI company these days.

所以这对很多人都有参考价值。AI定价有何特别之处？

So I think this is gonna apply to a lot of people. How is AI pricing different?

没错。AI定价与过往企业类型完全不同。原因有二：其一，AI创始人从种子轮/前种子轮阶段就必须考虑盈利问题，这点与传统SaaS公司不同。

Yeah. AI pricing is very different from the previous, you know, vintage of companies. Why is that so? Because AI founders need to tackle monetization from the very early days, like day one in their seed stage, pre seed kind of thing, which was not probably the focus for the previous SaaS companies. Why is that so?

更深层的原因是价值捕获——AI产品创造巨大价值，若初期不建立收费机制，就是在培养客户'少付多得'的预期。例如代理型AI产品对接的是劳动预算（比软件预算高10倍），沿用传统定价模式会导致长期价值低估。

Because of two reasons. One, for the first time, there's cost dynamics to actually navigate, so you need to think about monetization from day one. But there's also a more critical reason, which is value capture, because with AI products, you're actually bringing a lot of value to the table, and if you don't capture that from day one, then you're training your customers to expect more for less. For instance, think about this. If you're building a, you know, agentic AI product that taps into labor budgets, labor budgets are 10x compared to software budgets.

因此需要建立能捕获价值的基础模型。这种转变之所以关键，在于AI首次解决了价值归因问题。过去如Slack提升效率难以量化，但现今AI企业能明确宣称'为财富100强提升10%产能，降低5%废品率'，这种可归因的核心价值带来了强大定价权。AI创始人最常问的两个问题就是：如何建立正确的收费模式？以及具体如何定价？

So if you use all the old playbooks, then you're under monetizing again from day one and training your customers to expect more for less. So how do you come up with, you know, foundational models that actually allow you to, like, capture the value that you bring to the table? And why has this become critical? Because, you know, with AI, finally, founders can, you know, really solve the attribution problem. In the previous vintages, like for instance, if you take Slack, you can say that the productivity went up, efficiency happened, but you cannot measure it, monitor it, attribute it to Slack.

Okay, that's probably why they were in a seed based pricing model. But in today's situations, you see companies that say, in a Fortune 100 company, I was able to improve throughput by 10%, reduce scrap by 5%. And when you get into those kind of situations where an AI is creating core value and is attributable to the AI, you get a lot of pricing power. So the two questions that we commonly hear from AI founders is, how do I set the right pricing model? As in, how do I charge?

Okay, that's probably why they were in a seed based pricing model. But in today's situations, you see companies that say, in a Fortune 100 company, I was able to improve throughput by 10%, reduce scrap by 5%. And when you get into those kind of situations where an AI is creating core value and is attributable to the AI, you get a lot of pricing power. So the two questions that we commonly hear from AI founders is, how do I set the right pricing model? As in, how do I charge?

这变得比定价更为关键，因为底层商业模式已发生转变。我们不再是从付费使用软件转向按交付成果付费。因此，盈利模式成为核心问题——这实际是客户最先询问我们的。其次是如何在早期驾驭概念验证（POC）与商业谈判，因为买方同样希望在展开商业讨论前看到价值。

Which becomes, you know, way more important than how much you charge, because the underlining business model has changed. It is not we we have moved from, you know, software being a, you know, pay for access to like now you're paying for work delivered. So like the monetization models become key. That is the first question that people actually ask us. The second one is, you know, how do I navigate POCs, commercial discussions early, because the buyer on the other side also wants to see the value before they engage in a commercial discussion.

这两个议题至关重要，我们在书中对此有充分阐释。

So those two topics become very critical, and we have showcased a lot of this in the book.

本节目由Persona赞助——这个适应性身份平台助力企业防范欺诈、满足合规要求并建立信任。当您收听时，如何确认正在收听的是真实的Lenny？如今，欺诈者窃取个人身份信息、面容和身份比以往更容易。Persona为领英、Etsy和Twilio等全球领先企业提供安全可靠的个人与企业验证服务。

This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust. While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny? These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces, and identities. That's where Persona comes in. Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.

Persona的独特优势在于其可配置性。不同行业、应用场景、风险承受力及用户群体需求各异，因此Persona提供灵活模块，助您构建定制化的信息收集与验证流程，在降低风险的同时提升转化率。其流程编排工具还能自动化身份验证流程，应对快速演变的欺诈手段与监管要求。无论初创公司或大型企业，Persona都有适配方案。

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详情请访问withpersona.com/leni（注：此处为保留原始域名拼写）。关于POC环节，这是许多人的痛点，之后我还想探讨书中提到的2×2矩阵——我现在就调出来。让我们先聚焦POC话题。

Learn more at with persona.com/leni. Again, that's with pers0na.com/leni. Let's talk about this POC piece because I think this is something a lot of people deal with, then I wanna talk about this two by two that you have in the book, and I'll I'll actually pull it up. So let's talk about POCs first.

谈及POC时，许多创始人将其视为技术功能验证，即产品能否在客户环境中运行。他们如此设定预期：‘我们将部署产品并观察其实际效果’，进而纠结是否该收费——这个问题我们稍后展开分析。

So POCs, you know, when we talk about POCs, many founders think about a POC as a proof of technical functionality, and is their product actually working in, like, their customer environments. And they set up the expectation that way, saying, hey, we are going to put the product, and we are going to see if it actually works. And they would probably say, Should I charge for a POC versus not? And we will unpack that in a bit. Should you or should you not?

这种认知完全错误。POC的核心目标应是构建商业论证，句号。它不在于演示产品功能适配或系统集成能力——这些只是商业论证的衍生结果。

And that's actually a completely wrong way of framing it. The POC should be framed as the entire goal of the POC is to create a business case, period. Full stop. It is not to, like, demonstrate product functionality fit within your customer environment's ability to integrate. All of that stuff is a consequence of the business case.

正确的框架是：'这是为期30天的联合试点，旨在共同创建ROI模型与商业论证。若最终基于商业论证确认价值，我们再进入商业谈判'。如此，价格讨论自然延后，双方专注构建商业案例，价值确认后自然达成合理商业协议。

So if you frame it this way, as you can say, look, it is a thirty day pilot for co creating an ROI model and building a business case along with their users. If we see value at the end of the thirty days based on the business case, we can get to commercial discussions. So that way you've actually not talked about your price. You're only focused on co creating a business case with the customer, and based on the business case, you can actually come up with, you know, a proper commercial agreement. And if they see value, they're going to pay you for it.

明白吗？这才是POC的应有思路。关于是否收费的问题——答案是肯定的，但需讲究策略。收费能有效筛选真正有意向的客户，淘汰那些仅想浅尝辄止的旁观者。若无此机制，你会吸引大批对AI仅怀好奇心的买家，他们只想验证技术可行性却无实质采购意向。

Right? So thinking about the POCs in that kind of manner. And, you know, the question that I often get asked is, should I charge for a POC? And the answer is yes, but smartly. Let's talk about why it's important to charge.

The reason you need to charge for a POC is you start isolating people who are just tire kickers versus serious bias. It becomes a lead qualification mechanism. If you didn't have that, you're going to attract all of these curious buyers who are just curious about the AI. They just want to see if it works or not. They will say, yes, I'll engage with the POC.

The reason you need to charge for a POC is you start isolating people who are just tire kickers versus serious bias. It becomes a lead qualification mechanism. If you didn't have that, you're going to attract all of these curious buyers who are just curious about the AI. They just want to see if it works or not. They will say, yes, I'll engage with the POC.

他们会占用你三十天、六十天甚至九十天的时间，消耗大量资源。千万别买。你只是在浪费时间。时间就是生命线。

They will take thirty, sixty, ninety days with you. They will burn a lot of resources. Never buy. You've just wasted your time. Time is of the essence.

所以，为概念验证（POC）标价实际上表明双方都是认真的。因此你应该收费。但具体如何收费？你需要巧妙地定价。这意味着你的POC报价不能反映实际商业协议的价格。

So, like, having a price tag to your POC actually indicates that, you know, there is seriousness on both sides. So you should charge. But how do you actually charge for it? You need to charge for it smartly. What this means is that you need to make sure that your POC pricing is not a reflection of your actual commercial deal.

因为假设你只说这是个为期三十天、价值1万美元的POC，却不声明这与商业谈判无关，你就设下了一个锚点——如果POC成功，相当于每年12万美元的交易。你必须明确这1万仅用于构建商业案例，后续才会进行商业谈判。这并非实际商业条款的指示。但买方可能仍会施压说：'道理我都懂，但我需要预算报价。'

Because let's say if you just say it's a 10 k POC for like a thirty day pilot, if you don't talk about the fact that it is not the same as your commercial discussion, you have now set an anchor that, okay, it's a 120 k per per year kind of deal if the POC works. So you have to be clear that the 10 k is only for building a business case. Commercial discussions will follow after that. It is not an indication of the actual commercial discussion. But your buyer on the other side might still push you saying, that's all great, but I need a price on a budget.

否则我不会推进。有两种方法可以化解这类问题：第一种是通过价值情境化价格。比如你可以说：'像您这样的客户，在类似情境中我们通常能创造至少1000万美元价值，我们的定价原则是ROI的1/10。'这样你暗示了百万美元级报价，却未直接说明。

Otherwise, I won't move forward with it. So there are two ways to actually deflect those kind of questions. The first way is contextualize the price on the value. So, you can say something like, if you push for price, hey, for customers such as yours, we have been able to at least unlock 10,000,000 in very similar situations, and our pricing is one is to 10x when it comes to ROI. So, you basically said that you're a million dollars to actually get started, but you actually didn't say it.

你只是说价值1000万，我们收取十分之一。既给买方暗示，又用10倍ROI的框架使其合理化。但他们可能仍坚持：'很好，但我需要具体预算。'

You just said it's a 10,000,000, and I'm taking one in 10 in exchange for it. So, you've kind of given the buyer an indication, but you've framed it in such a manner that that actually is justifiable, right? A one in 10x ROI. So that's one way to do it. They might still say, Yeah, that's good, but I need a budget.

这时不要直接说'可能是20万美元'，这是最糟糕的回应。给出区间范围：'最终定价将在50万到100万之间，基于我们共同构建的商业案例，我们可以在这个区间选择最能体现价值的点位。'这样你提供的是预算范围。

So then, rather than just give them a budget saying, It could be a 200 ks option, don't do that. That's the worst thing you can actually say. Give them a range. You can say something like, Look, the final pricing would be anywhere from 500 ks to a million, and based on the business case that we would co create with you, we can pick a point in that range that justifies the value that we bring to the table. So you're giving budgetary ranges.

明白吗？这是处理POC的另一种方式。在快速规模化发展AI公司时，如何选择早期胜利案例至关重要——这决定了未来的发展轨迹。筛选严肃的买家、做好潜在客户评估、建立正确的POC流程，不要把POC仅视为产品验证，而要当作商业测试的绝佳机会，在实践中探索你能带来的价值份额。

Right? So that's the other way to actually go about POCs. So how you navigate your early wins, who you choose, is very critical when you're building companies at scale and fast in AI because that actually dictates the destiny for the rest of your future. And picking those early wins is very, very critical. And having buyers who are serious, lead qualifying, having the right POC process, and thinking about POCs as, frankly, not just trying to see if your product actually works and delivers value, but it's a great chance to have a commercial test and learn experiment and have fun with it and try to see what you bring to the table in terms of your value and what portion can you actually take.

所以核心结论是：AI公司不能再'先增长后变现'。你的建议是'起始即终局'。由于人们没意识到AI带来的是实际劳动力节省（而不只是SaaS软件的效率提升），很容易低估变现潜力。

So the core kind of takeaway here is for AI companies, you no longer can just grow and figure out monetization later. Your advice here is what you start with is what you're going to end up with. And it's very easy to under monetize because people aren't realizing that they're now helping with actual labor force savings versus just like SaaS software that's making people a little bit more efficient.

完全正确。我认为AI领域的赢家必须精通变现策略，且从第一天就要掌握。早期创始人常为此失眠，这也正是我们撰写《规模化创新》等资料的原因——给他们从首日就正确定价的勇气，这对AI公司尤为关键。

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I strongly believe that the winners in AI will need to master monetization, and they need to ma mastered from day one. I mean, and when we talk to early stage founders, it is a topic that keeps many people up at night, but that's also why we wrote Scaling Innovation and other assets so that they can get some more courage to think about, you know, pricing correctly from day one, and it's become very critical for AI companies to do that.

你觉得那些知名IDE初创公司（就不点名了）是否存在变现不足的问题？他们未来会陷入困境吗？

Do you feel like the popular IDE startups, I won't name names, do you think they've under monetized and they're going to be in trouble down the road?

其中一些公司确实如此。我认为它们可能会耗尽这种优势，因为它们可能表现出快速的收入增长，但这种收入是否持久？用户真的会留下来吗？还是会出现流失？要知道，构建盈利性增长涉及很多方面。不仅仅是快速增长，还要实现盈利性增长并建立一个可持续发展的业务。

Some of them for sure have. I think they will probably run out of it because they might show a lot of, let's say, fast revenue growth, but is that enduring revenue? Are people actually going to stay, and is there going to be churn? You know, so there are a lot of aspects to architect profitable growth. It's not just growing fast, but also growing profitably and having an enduring business.

所以其中一些公司，是的，我就不点名了，

So some of them, yes, without naming names,

但我觉得这就是为什么需要审慎考虑市场份额和钱包份额的原因。这两者是不同的。所以我认为你这里说的是，这些公司的留存率可能不佳，但另一方面，它们的价格非常低廉，比如每月20美元就能让工程师效率提升十倍。这样的交易是不是太划算了？你认为它们本应定价更高吗？

but yeah, I think that's why it's important to be thoughtful about market share and wallet share. Well, are different. So I think what you're saying here is, they may not, the retention may not work for some of these companies, but on the other hand, they're really cheap, like $20 a month to help your engineer be, like, 10 times more productive potentially. Like, is that too good a deal? Do you think they should have priced a lot higher?

没错，确实如此。如果你提供了大量价值，却让客户习惯了每月20美元的定价，那么你就把自己锚定在了低价位上。有些公司确实这么做了，后来试图通过推出更复杂、更高价位的产品来扭转局面。这是一种应对方式。

Yeah. For sure. I mean, if you're bringing a lot of value to the table and you started training your customers to expect $20 a month, then you anchored yourself on a low price point. I think there are companies that have actually done that, and they try to undo it with, like, you know, having more sophisticated, let's say, products that are actually higher priced or much higher priced, etcetera. That's one way to undo that situation.

所以这实际上是在获取更多客户和同时盈利之间做权衡。这正是那本书的核心观点——市场份额与钱包份额，以及如何同时主导两者。如果它们能兼顾二者，并有远见不局限于扩大市场份额，而是制定清晰的‘登陆-拓展’策略以提升钱包份额，这类公司可能会成功。但如果只是推出20美元的产品，单纯指望加速市场份额增长，那就麻烦了。

So it is really a trade off between getting more customers and making money at the same time. That's the whole point of the book, market share and wallet share, and how do you dominate both. So if they're being thoughtful about both and have a vision to not just, you know, grow market share, but also have a clear strategy to land and expand and increase wallet share, those strategies might pan out for those types of companies. If you just threw out a $20 product hoping to just, you know, accelerate your market share, you're in trouble.

好的。这正好引出了这个二维矩阵，它将更深入探讨这一点。简单说‘不要做什么’很容易，而你的建议是关于‘实际该怎么做’。现在我要在屏幕上展示你书中这个二维矩阵。

Okay. That's a great segue to this two by two, which goes much deeper into this. So it's easy to be like, here's what you shouldn't do. Here's your advice on what to actually do. So I'm going to pull up on my screen this two by two that you have in your book.

YouTube上的观众可以看到这个图表。请详细解释——这本质上是如何找到最佳定价模型并最大化议价能力的框架。

So if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see it. So talk about this. This is essentially how to figure out the the best possible pricing model and where you have the most power.

谈到AI公司和盈利模式时，我们常被问到：该采用用量计价、结果导向定价、副驾驶模式，还是其他方式？为此我们设计了这个框架——它看似简单直接，但极具洞察力。

So when you talk about AI companies and, you know, monetization models, we get asked this question, should I be usage based? Should I be outcome? Should I be, you know, a copilot mode? Or how do I actually think about my pricing model? So we came up with this framework, which is a, you know, relatively simple, straightforward framework, but very powerful.

这里有两个坐标轴：归因力（attribution）和自主性（autonomy）。当两者都处于高位时，企业就拥有最强的定价权，这点稍后会详述。现在先看左下象限——

So there are two axes here. One is attribution, and the other one is autonomy. And when you have high attribution and high autonomy, that is when you have high pricing power, and we'll come back to that in a bit. Right? So let's take the first, you know, bottom left quadrant.

这个象限代表低归因力与低自主性。此时最适合的定价原型是种子模式或订阅制，因为你无法明确量化所创造的价值，且处于辅助模式而非自主模式。但处于该象限的企业必须立即思考：如何增强归因力向右移动以获得更大定价权？而右下象限的公司正是成功实践这一点的典范。

That is the quadrant where your attribution is low and your autonomy is low. In that situation, the best pricing archetype that actually fits is it is actually a seed based or a subscription model because there's not much to do about it because you're not, you know, being able to, like, attribute a lot of value to what you bring, but you're in a copilot mode, you're not in an autonomous mode. So a seed based pricing would actually make sense. But if you're at that quadrant, the immediate thing to think about is how do you actually build more attribution and move to the right so that you actually get more pricing power? So if you think about the, you know, bottom right quadrant, those are companies that have actually done that.

它们能够更明确地证明自身带来的实际价值，但仍未实现完全自主模式，仍需人工介入。以Cursor为例，它确实提升了生产力，显著缩短了编码时间。其价值归属清晰，但仍处于协同模式。在此类场景下，混合定价模式是最佳选择——既保留协同场景的席位制基础，又叠加了基于AI信用点或令牌的用量计费层。

They have more they can prove more attribution to what they actually bring to the table, but they are still not in a fully autonomous mode, as in there is still humans in the loop. If you take Cursor, for instance, you know, it definitely improves productivity. You can actually bring down the time to actually, you know, do code. The attribution is clear, but it's still in a copilot mode. In those kind of situations, a hybrid pricing model is the best option, but you still have a, you know, seed based model for the copilot kind of use case, but you also layer in a consumption model, which actually says there are certain number of AI credits or tokens that can layer in the usage aspects.

因此使用量越大，实际支付费用越高，这种混合模式效果显著。再看左上象限的产品，虽高度自主但价值归属弱。这类多为后台或基础设施类产品，虽对企业运营至关重要且能自主运行，却未直接影响企业追踪的KPI，故难以有效证明价值。此时必须采用按量付费的用量制模式。

So if you use more and more, then you're actually paying more on consumption. So it's a hybrid model that actually works there. If you look at the top, you know, left quadrant, those are, you know, products that are very autonomous, but are not strong on attribution. So, these tend to be mostly like backend or infrastructure kind of products that are core critical to like run businesses, can be autonomous, but they are not directly impacting the KPIs that businesses are tracking, and hence cannot prove attribution very effectively. So, you know, in that situation, you need to be on a pay for what you consume and a usage based model.

席位制在此全自主场景并不适用，正因无人介入才需用量制——使用量越大付费越高，用量成为价值创造的替代指标。真正理想的黄金象限在右上方，即同时具备高度自主性和明确价值归属的结果导向定价区，这正是AI展现魔力的舞台。

A seed based model would not make sense because it's autonomous. There's no human in the loop, but that's why you're also in a usage based model, saying the more you use it, the more you're actually charged, and usage becomes a proxy for the value that you bring to the table. The quadrant that you really want to be in is the golden you know, quadrant, which is the top right one. That's the outcome based pricing model where you have great autonomy and great attribution. And here is where I think AI can be really magical.

这意味着不仅对交付成果收费，更针对完全由AI自主完成的工作收费。典型案例是Intercom的Fin方案：当AI独立解决客户工单时计费，需人工介入则免费。Chargeflow等公司则按AI成功追回的每笔拒付金额收取25%费用——因其通过AI实现可量化成本节省，兼具高度自主与价值证明。

So this means you're not only charging for work delivered, but you're charging for work delivered that was delivered by AI without no humans in the loop. So that becomes more of an outcome based model situation. So a classic example here is Intercom for Fin. What they actually do is they charge based on an AI resolution. So if an AI is able to resolve the ticket completely independently without a human in the loop, then they charge for it.

当前AI领域主流仍是混合定价模式，这符合预期——传统SaaS从席位制转向至少包含AI信用点的混合模式。目前约5%企业采用真正结果导向定价，其中佼佼者能获取所创造价值的25%-50%回报。传统SaaS时代10%-20%已属优异，而AI因全自主特性使更高分成成为可能。

If a human intervention is needed, they don't charge for it. So they're more on an outcome based model. Or like companies like Chargeflow would charge up to 25 on a chargeback that they are able to actually recover because these are, like, you know, core savings that you actually bring to the table based on your AI. It is highly attributable, highly autonomous, so you can start moving towards an outcome based pricing model. If you look at the state of where AI is today as of the day of recording this podcast, now the most popular model is right now a hybrid pricing model.

这种模式下，AI直接提升商业指标，创造硬性成本节约与机会成本优势，所有价值均可验证。大量基准研究佐证这点，我也坚信未来三年采用结果导向定价的企业将从5%升至25%。要在AI领域胜出，必须进军这个魔法象限——基于成果定价将释放巨大价值。

So, because this is also expected because, you know, the previous SaaS playbook was usually on the seat based model, but they've all now moved on to at least a hybrid to actually incorporate AI credits and usage, etcetera. About 5% of companies are probably in a true outcome based pricing model, you know, as of as of today. But those companies, some of the best ones, are able to recover 25 to 50% of the value that they actually bring to the table. In the classic SaaS situation, we used to say if you can charge 10 to 20% of the value, that's actually great. But in AI, you can actually charge 25 to 50 because it is autonomous.

哇，容我再暂停下。这太精彩了，Madhavan，非常感谢。

You're doing it with the AI. There's no humans in the loop. You're creating incremental value to the business metrics. You're producing hard cost savings as opportunity costs. You can justify all of that.

您数十年潜心研究后为我们指明方向，实在令人赞叹。顺便告诉非YouTube观众：您提到的黄金象限结果导向定价企业包括Sierra、Fin和Charge Flow。

It's attributable. So you can actually take 25 to 50 of what you bring to the table. And there are a lot of benchmarks and studies that actually show that and this is also my belief that in the next three years, that 5% number will move to 25%. So what this really means is if you want to win in AI, figure out a way to get to that quadrant because that's the magic quadrant. If you can truly, you know, price based on outcomes, you've achieved and unlock tremendous value.

Wow. Okay. I'm just going to pause again. This is amazing. Madhavan, thank you so much for it.

Wow. Okay. I'm just going to pause again. This is amazing. Madhavan, thank you so much for it.

I love that again, that you just spent years, decades studying this stuff. Come here, tell us all the answers of what we should be doing. This is incredible. Let me ask you this. By the way, for Phoebe folks not watching on YouTube, the companies you have in the golden quadrant outcome based pricing, Sierra, Fin and Charge Flow.

I love that again, that you just spent years, decades studying this stuff. Come here, tell us all the answers of what we should be doing. This is incredible. Let me ask you this. By the way, for Phoebe folks not watching on YouTube, the companies you have in the golden quadrant outcome based pricing, Sierra, Fin and Charge Flow.

我们很快会在播客中邀请到Sierra和Fin的创始人。到时候我们可以和他们深入探讨这些话题。太棒了。那么有没有办法运用这个2x2矩阵来确定自己的商业模式？比如，我是像Hursor那样直接选择某个象限，还是说无论如何都要以结果为导向——那才是我应该瞄准的方向？

We've got the founder of Sierra and Fin coming on the podcast soon. So we'll talk about all this with those guys. Awesome. So is there a way to use this 2x2, figuring out your model? Like, is it like, okay, I'm like Hursor, I'm going to go in this quadrant or is it, how do I get to outcome based no matter what, that's where I need to be?

是的，这个问题很棒。首先要根据现状确定适合你的原型类别，我认为这才是最关键的。如果贸然采用基于结果的定价模式，却无法证明价值归属，注定会失败，对吧？

Yeah, So that's a great question. The first one is to actually figure out, you know, what is your right archetype based on where you are today. I think that is most important. Like, if you try to rush into an outcome based pricing model but cannot prove attribution, you will fail. Right?

因此关键在于：第一，基于当前业务确定正确原型；第二，运用这个矩阵规划如何逐步实现结果导向。这需要思考：如何在产品中构建功能来展示价值归属？如何建立更具自主性的工作流程，减少人为干预？如何制定清晰的愿景和战略来向结果导向定价转型？提升价值归属意味着首先要理解客户的关键绩效指标。

So it is really coming up with what is the right architect based on what I'm doing today, but also use this two by two to say, How do I paint a vision to actually get to outcome based, and can I get close to that, or can I be purely an outcome based model, Right? How do I evolve into that? What that would mean is, how do I build functionality in the products to actually show attribution? How do I build more agentic workforces to take the human out of the loop and be more autonomous and being thoughtful about your vision and strategy so that you will orient yourself towards more outcome based pricing models. So, when you think about increasing attribution, that means, first of all, understanding what are the KPIs of your customers.

客户如何追踪业务表现？你能影响这些指标吗？能否通过产品功能证明你正在积极提升这些KPI？能否构建价值仪表盘？能否像我们讨论的那样持续进行价值审计，证明你创造了可量化的价值？

How do they track their business performance? Can you impact it? Can you productize things in your product that showcase that you are actually affecting those KPIs in a positive manner? Can you build dashboards to show value attribution? Can you do those value audits that we talked about on an ongoing basis to actually show that you're bringing a lot of value to the table and is attributable to you?

因此建立价值归属机制至关重要，同时通过构建自主化智能团队来实现自动化运作。选择正确原型，并规划最接近结果导向定价的路径——这就是2x2矩阵的用法。某些行业已经呈现出这种趋势。

So how do you create these kind of attribution mechanisms become important? And also autonomous based on building more agentic workforces that can actually be on an autonomous mode. So, pick the right archetype and plan to get to as close as you can to the outcome based pricing model. That's how I would use the two by two. And you actually kind of see this happening with certain industries.

以编程领域为例，早期GitHub采用种子模式，现在转向了Kerbros等企业的混合定价模式，但最终必然会发展为结果导向定价——当AI代理能同时完成编程和调试时，本质上你是在雇佣AI开发者或测试员，这种可归因且自主的模式更接近结果导向定价。因此选择正确原型并规划转型路径，就是这个矩阵的核心解读方式。

Right? If you think about coding as a overall category, like, you know, back in the day with GitHub, everyone, they started with a seed based model. Right? They've now moved to, like, the hybrid based pricing model with Kerzos and everyone else, but the natural move would be more towards an outcome based pricing model where a AI agent can probably code everything at the same time, debug it, and you're kind of almost hiring a AI developer or an AI QA person, and that actually becomes more closer to a outcome based model because it's attributable and autonomous. So that is picking the right archetype and then figuring out your pathway is is the key way to interpret this two by two.

这说明为什么所有人都在追捧智能代理——你本质上在告诉我们这就是财富密码对吧？好的，然后这将会...

This explains why everyone's bullying agents. That's where the money's at, is what you're telling us here. Yeah. Okay. And It's gonna be

演变成矩阵时代。代理泛滥的世界。

the age of the matrix. Too many agents.

到处都是史密斯探员，这结局可不妙啊。按我的理解，如果我是Canva——假设Canva处于矩阵右下角的混合定价模型（基础费+用量费），你给Canva的建议会是：如何通过构建更多自动化功能来打造自主版Canva？

Agent Smith's everywhere. That didn't turn out too great. So what I'm hearing is if I were Canva, so Canva here and your model is bottom right there in a hybrid pricing model. They have a base fee and consumption fee. What you would do if you were helping Canva is what can you build that creates more autonomy, an autonomous version of Canva?

当然这不是必须选项，但若能实现这点，就能掌握更强的定价权。

And it's not like you need to do this, it's just you have more pricing power if you figure something out there.

确实。我意思是，Intercom公司的Fin产品就是个很好的例子。传统上这类公司都是按客服人员数量定价，即有多少客服实际使用产品。过去是按席位收费，但他们开发了Fin——一个完全由AI处理支持工单的方案。这让他们得以转向基于结果定价的模式象限。

Exactly. I mean and and and a good case for that is the, you know, Fin product from Intercom because traditionally, you know, all of those kind of companies used to price based on an agent basis, how many customer service agents are actually using the product. It used to be seed based, but they built out Fin, which is a completely AI resolution for those kind of support tickets. And then that actually enables them to move to the outcome based pricing model quadrant.

太棒了。所以作为如今的AI创业者，你在考虑长期定价策略和盈利模式时，建议是与设计合作伙伴共同创建概念验证，通过ROI模型探索理想的基于结果定价策略。可以这样总结吗？

Amazing. So you say you're an AI founder today. You're thinking about your pricing strategy, your monetization strategy long term. Your advice is work with design partners, create these POCs where you work on this ROI model with them to ideally find some outcome based pricing strategy. Is that a good way to summarize?

你还有什么要补充的？

What would you add to that?

是的。即便不采用基于结果的定价模式，至少要能阐述商业案例的上下文，明确你通过该案例为客户创造的实际价值。这能让你根据产出收取合理费用。如果客户认可这个商业逻辑，你就能从中分得相应份额。

Yes. I mean, least be able to contextualize the business case, even if you're not moving to an outcome based pricing model, be clear on the outcome that you're actually creating for your customers through that business case, which actually will enable you to charge a fair price in exchange for that outcome. And if your customers agree with the business case, then you can actually take a portion of that.

其实Fin是我们播客的新赞助商，我刚知道他们每解决一个工单收费99美分。

Fin, actually, they're a new sponsor of the podcast and I learned, I didn't know this cost 99¢ for every support ticket they solve.

对AI处理的才收费，如果需要人工干预就不收钱。

To AI, if it's a Exactly, if it needs a human intervention, then they don't charge for it.

是啊，这简直...多么直白的对比：人工客服成本20美元，AI只要99美分。

Yeah, and it's just like, what? That's such a simple story. Your agent costs $20, this thing's cost 99¢.

没错，这完美展现了两点：极简定价和基于结果的定价模式。

Yeah, that is two chapters in one beautifully simple pricing and an outcome based pricing model.

有趣的是，他们最初采用的是最招人恨的定价模式。我在推特做过调查，问大家哪个产品付费最不值，结果总是Intercom。而现在他们找到了解决方案。

And interestingly, were the least, like the most hated pricing model initially. I did a survey on Twitter once, like what products do you pay the most for? And it was always Intercom and everyone hated their pricing and they found a solution.

我认为他们确实找到了绝佳的解决方案。

I think they have found a great solution.

好的。那么在我们转向其他话题之前，你认为企业——尤其是AI公司——在考虑定价时还应该注意哪些方面的问题？

Okay. So is there anything else along these lines that you think companies, especially AI companies, should be thinking when they're thinking about pricing that you'd want to share before we move on to other stuff?

我想我们已经涵盖了大部分要点。正如我们所说，要审慎对待概念验证（POC），选择合适的定价原型或定价模式。这些在早期阶段至关重要。但当你开始规模化发展，比如说成为多产品公司时，就需要开始关注应采取哪种打包策略——是平台加附加组件模式吗？

I think we've covered most of the topics. Like we said, it's, you know, being thoughtful about POCs, choosing the right, you know, pricing archetype or the pricing models. Those things become very critical in the early stages. But when you start scaling and let's say you become a multiproduct company, then you need to start focusing on what what kind of packaging strategy should I have. Is it a platform plus add ons?

是否应该设置基础版/进阶版/专业版这样的产品梯度？由于现在AI能同时解决保险业和医疗健康等不同场景需求，我是否应该针对不同用例开发专门产品？这是否应该成为我的打包策略？还是保持完全模块化让客户自由组合？

Should I have, like, versions of the products like good, better, best? Should I tackle different use cases because now my AI can solve an insurance use case and a, you know, healthcare use case. Should I productize to, like, different use cases? Is is that my packaging strategy? Or should I keep it completely modularized for, like, people to pick and choose?

这类问题会愈发关键，正因如此，书中关于突破早期打包模式、制定适合规模化阶段的打包策略的章节显得尤为重要。我认为这是创业者接下来必然面临的挑战——当他们开发多个产品时，必须系统考虑整体打包、交叉销售和向上销售的策略。

So these kind of questions become more critical, and that's why the chapter on blowing up your packaging from your early days and coming up with your packaging strategy for your scale up phase become very critical. So I think that's the next thing that founders would be hit with. As and when they build multiple products, they need to think about the whole packaging, cross selling, upselling motion.

这正好引出了我接下来要问的问题：改变定价策略的频率。在你们看来，成功调整定价方式的频率是怎样的？虽然我们强调AI公司从一开始就要制定正确策略，但根据你的经验，如果听众发现现有定价策略有问题，后续成功调整需要满足哪些条件？

This touches on something I was about to ask, which is a change in your pricing strategy. How often does is it a success to change the way you price? Like I know we're talking about you need to get it right from the beginning if you're an AI company. In your experience, how often, like what does it take to successfully shift the way you price down the road if people are listening to this and like shit, we already have this pricing strategy.

过去我们常说至少每两年要重新评估整体定价策略和价格水平。但对AI公司来说，由于行业发展速度和竞争强度，这个周期可能需要缩短一半。定价是持续优化的过程，绝非一劳永逸。你必须从第一天就深思熟虑，同时准备好灵活调整——这本身就是个不断学习的过程。

Back in the day, we used to say that you should revisit your pricing strategy, overall pricing model, you know, how much you're charging at least once in two years. With AI, that's probably reduced in half because of the scale with which and the speed with which companies are built and competing. So I would say that it is an ongoing journey. It is not like you just solve it in day one, you know, fill it and forget it. It has to be, you you have to be thoughtful from day one, but also be ready to like pivot, iterate, and you're going to learn along your journey.

关键是要把早期定价视为测试学习的机会。有些要素需要频繁调整（如价格点），有些则不宜经常变动（如定价模型）。除非业务模式发生根本性改变，否则应该保持定价模型的稳定性，避免造成混乱。

So, the whole point is to think about pricing as also a test and learn opportunity in your early days. And there are things that you would change more often, and there are things that you probably don't want to change too often, like things like pricing model. Unless you have, you know, really changed your attribution autonomy, there is no need to, like, shift your pricing model. Stay within that architect. Don't confuse things.

但像价格点这类要素，半年或一年后就应该考虑上调——毕竟所有消费品的年通胀率都有3-5%。重点在于如何智慧地实施涨价。因此书中关于'如何进行战略性涨价'的章节对成长期企业尤为重要。巴菲特对此有精妙总结：

But there are things like price points. Should I increase my price because it's been, you know, six months or a year? Yeah, you should, because in a year, there's probably prices go up three to 5% for everything that you consume, but how can you actually increase your prices and be thoughtful about it? So that entire chapter on how to do price increases smartly become very important in the scale up phase. I think Warren Buffett summarized this really well.

他说：'企业的本质就是定价权。如果你需要祈祷才能涨价10%，那你的生意就很糟糕。'你必须具备随时间推移提价的能力，但关键在于如何战略性地实施——既控制客户流失，又能通过价值传递让涨价被接受。

He said, The true definition of a company is a pricing power, and if you have a prayer session for doing a 10% price increase, you have a terrible business. So you have to be able to increase prices over a bit of time, but how do you do it strategically that does not affect too much churn, but you're also able to, like, pass on the increase as a value exchange. Those things become critical.

太精彩了。最后想请你从宏观角度分享：我很欣赏你书中用箴言架构内容的方式，那些精辟的定价法则让人过目难忘。能请你分享两三条书中最喜欢的定价箴言吗？

Awesome. Zooming out a little bit, something that I love about your book is you structured it around these axioms. You have a bunch of these really clever axioms that get stuck in your head and help you think about pricing. Can you share some of your favorites, maybe two or three of your favorite axioms from the book?

你提到Sierra是创始团队成员之一，我不确定是不是指Clay，但这里要向Clay致意。Clay实际上读完了整本《规模化创新》并给了我反馈，他手头有一本相似的副本。我在书中将这些原则称为‘规模化创新公理’，其核心理念是：若能将所有公理打印出来放在桌边，它们就是全书的精华总结，如同可随时提醒行动准则的箴言。

You talked about Sierra being in your part founders. I don't know if that's Clay, but here's a shout out for Clay. So Clay actually read the entire book and gave me feedback, Scaling Innovation, a similar copy that he actually had. And I had I called it Scaling Innovation Axioms throughout the book. And the whole point of the Axioms was that at the end of the day, if you can just take all the axioms, put it in printout next to your desk, it's the summary of the book, and it's like pity statements that you will just remember what to do.

于是他提出一个绝妙建议：与其笼统地称它们为规模化创新公理，不如为每条公理打造专属品牌名。我采纳了这个创意，甚至有些命名就来自他的贡献。最终我们为每条公理都设计了独特名称——还有个有趣的巧合。

So he came up with this idea that, hey, rather than calling them generic scaling innovation axioms, you need to brand each and every axiom. And I thought that was a brilliant idea. So I went about coming up with a unique he he even contributed to some of the names. So we came about you know, we came up with some unique names for each axiom. And here's the other fun fact.

可能我太书呆子气了，但当我统计公理数量时，发现正好42条。这绝非刻意安排——如果你读过《银河系漫游指南》，就知道42是‘生命、宇宙与一切的答案’。玩笑归玩笑，让我解析几条公理。首先是我最爱的‘二八公理’：尤其在科技公司，20%的产品功能往往驱动80%的支付意愿。

Probably I'm geeking out too much, but when I counted the number of axioms, there were 42 axioms. So and I didn't try to make this up, and if you're a Hitchhiker's fan, then you know that's the answer to everything. But jokes apart, let me unpack a few axioms. The first one of my first favorite axioms, what what I call is the twenty eighty axiom. So in in especially in tech companies, you know, 20% of what you build drives 80% of the willingness to pay.

讽刺的是，这20%通常最容易构建。创始人常把这20%功能免费投放市场，却耗费精力开发仅带来20%支付意愿的80%功能。若缺乏战略思考，就会无意中贱卖核心价值。真正理解产品的支付驱动因素至关重要——人们称之为MVP（最小可行产品），我认为该重新定义为‘最具价值产品’（Most Valuable Product），审慎规划早期产品形态才是关键。这就是二八公理。

But the irony is that the 20% is the easiest thing to build often. So, what founders do is they put this take this 20%, build it, put it out in the market almost for free, and then they're chasing their tails to build 80% stuff that's only driving 20% willingness to pay. So if you have not been thoughtful about that, you've given the farm away unintentionally. So truly understanding what drives willingness to pay in your product is critical, and I think, you know, people call it the MVP. I think we should change the definition of MVP.

我第二推崇的是‘定价瘫痪公理’：对提价的抗拒往往源于内部情感因素，而非外部理性判断。这又回到之前讨论过的提价心理障碍——如果需要全员表决才能提价，那生意肯定出了问题。如何理性对待提价策略至关重要。

It shouldn't be minimum viable product. It should be the most valuable product. And be thoughtful about what are you actually giving out as your early products, I think, is key. That's the 2080 axiom. Probably my second one is the price paralysis axioms.

第三钟爱的是‘预防流失公理’：阻止客户流失的最佳方式是吸引本就不会离开的客户。这听起来矛盾却最为有效。多数企业等到客户提出离开才挽留，此时已太迟且被动——最多用优惠留客半年，他们终将离开。真正要分析的是：哪些客户群体留存期最长？

So what that means is your reluctance to do a price increase is often internal and emotional, and it's not external and logical. This goes back to the same prayer session to actually do a price increase. If you're holding hands, you have a terrible business. Right? I mean, so it's mostly internal and emotional, and how we how do we be thoughtful about price increases become important.

他们的特征是什么？如何将获客资源集中在这类人群？如此方能防患于未然。嗯，这就是...

Probably my you know, third third favorite one is stopping churn before it happens, is stopping churn axiom. So to stop churn, you need to attract customers who won't leave. That sounds counterintuitive, but that's the best way to actually stop churn. What does this actually mean? You know, most companies would try to stop churn when someone actually says, I want to go.

有意思。我惊讶你没提我最爱的那条——‘立足之后务必扩张’。这个观点让我印象深刻。就是它。

It is too late and you're being reactive. At the most, you'll throw some offers, they will stay for another six months, and they will leave. They've already made that determination. The way to stop churn is to start acquiring customers who won't leave, and that is the most important thing. So if you look back at your data and say, Who are the types of customers who actually tend to stay longer?

What are their characteristics? How can I focus my acquisition dollars in getting more of those? Then you stop churn before it happens. Mhmm. And that's

What are their characteristics? How can I focus my acquisition dollars in getting more of those? Then you stop churn before it happens. Mhmm. And that's

the That's interesting. I'm surprised you didn't say what was my favorite, which is I think it's like, if you land, make sure to expand. Yeah. That one really stuck with me. That's it.

the That's interesting. I'm surprised you didn't say what was my favorite, which is I think it's like, if you land, make sure to expand. Yeah. That one really stuck with me. That's it.

也许我们会讨论那个话题。对。

Maybe we'll talk about that one. Yeah.

当然。我的意思是，如果你要进入市场（land），你还需要确保自己在扩张时有所保留。比如，如果在入门级产品中过度让利，后期就缺乏足够的盈利空间。因此需要深思熟虑：你的基础产品与增值服务之间的界限在哪里？哪些体验免费提供？哪些功能需要设置门槛？

Sure. I mean, so if you if you land, you need to also make sure you're you're expanding in the sense that, you know, if you give the farm away in your entry level product, you don't have much to actually, you know, monetize later. So being thoughtful about, you know, what is the fence between your land product? You know, what is it a free experience? What what is the gating?

这些门槛通常基于功能或使用量。关键是要规划得当，为未来的扩张保留空间。

And the gating is typically based on, you know, are you gating based on features? Are you also gating based on usage? And how do you be thoughtful about that so you leave stuff for the expansion?

好的。那么宏观来看，作为总结，你认为创始人最应该记住却往往误以为自己明白的重要教训是什么？

Okay. So zooming out even further, to kind of wrap up, what would you say is the biggest lesson you want founders to take away that they're probably they think they understand, but they probably don't?

这要回到我们最初的讨论。人们直觉上明白需要考虑市场份额和钱包份额，即使你问他们，他们也会说'是的，我正在考虑钱包份额'。

Yeah. I think this comes back to what you started with. I think intuitively people get it that they need to think about market share and wallet share if they are going and even if you ask them, they'll say like, yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about wallet share.

但他们是否真正同等重视？是否有意无意地偏废其一？是否在实施单引擎战略？这才是关键。反常识的洞见在于：不需要对两个引擎投入均等精力。

But have they really thought about it equally and paid equal attention? Have they, you know, postponed one of them? Are they operating in a single engine strategy, consciously or subconsciously? I think that's the key takeaway I have. So the contrarian take is not to put equal effort on both the, engines at the same time.

企业不同阶段需要不同侧重——有时追求市场份额主导，有时专注钱包份额主导。不是均等发力，而是保持均衡关注，真正建立'盈利性增长架构师'的思维模式。这是我的核心建议，若尚未形成这种思维，有本专门的书适合你。

In certain stages of your company, you might need to be more market share dominating. In certain stages, you might need to be wallet share dominating. It's not equal effort, but it's equal attention. And, like, really developing that mindset of being a true profitable growth architect. And that is the main takeaway that I have for people, and if you are not in that mindset already, there's a book for you.

我会推荐给大家。那么当人们意识到'需要更关注钱包份额'时，主要工作是否围绕设计符合定价能力的收费模式？还有哪些具体事项？

I'll point them to it. So just so folks know what to do when they're like, okay, I need to focus on wallet share more, is the main focus figure out a pricing model that aligns well with pricing power? What's in the bucket of work to do to invest more in wallet share thinking?

实际上这些要素都是关联的——市场份额、钱包份额、获客、变现、留存不能割裂看待。比如恰当的'land and expand'策略：基础产品助获取客，增值服务促钱包份额。

So it it's actually all of those, you know, market share, wallet share, acquisition, monetization, retention are all kind of like correlated. You can't think about them in isolation. So I wouldn't say only for wallet share, what do you need to do? If you want to grow on both the market share and wallet share, let's say for instance, you know, you need to have the right land and expand strategy. The land helps you with acquisition, the expansion helps you with wallet share.

定价模型既要便于快速获客（直观简单），又要利于价值回收（变现）。当用户理解定价逻辑时，留存率自然提升。因此九大战略的强大之处就在于：遵循它们就能避免陷入单引擎陷阱。

If you have a, you know, pricing model, then you need to have a pricing model that lets you acquire faster, because it's intuitive, but it should also help you recover value, which is like your monetization. And if people understand your pricing model, they're actually going to stay. So it's all sort of, you know, goes hand in hand. So I wouldn't isolate thinking one way or the other. That's why the nine strategies actually are very powerful, because if you follow those strategies, you're not going to fall into the single engine strap.

这些是经过验证的策略，教你如何以一种深思熟虑的方式构建业务，同时均衡关注市场份额与客户钱包份额。

These are tried and tested strategies of how to build businesses in such a way that you're being thoughtful and paying equal attention to both market share and wallet share.

好的。这是个非常合理的回答。Manabhan，在我们进入激动人心的快速问答环节前，你还有什么想分享或留给听众的话吗？

Alright. That is a very reasonable answer. Manabhan, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

请按顺序阅读《Monetizing Innovation》和《Scaling Innovation》这两本书，因为打造优秀产品是一回事，而建立卓越业务则是另一回事。你无法用不够出色的产品构建伟大企业，反之亦然。因此我认为，尤其是对AI公司而言，早期就考虑定价策略、保持深思熟虑——比如先定价后开发产品——再思考如何实际扩张、培养盈利性增长思维，这些都至关重要。我期待听到听众的反馈。

Read the two books in sequence, Monetizing Innovation and Scaling Innovation, because it's one thing to build a great product, it's yet another thing to build a great business. You cannot build a great business with a not so great product, and you cannot do it the other way around either. So I think it's having thinking about pricing early, especially for AI companies, being thoughtful about it, you know, like, you know, price before product, and then thinking about how to actually scale, developing a profitable growth mindset, all of these things become critical. And I'm looking forward to the feedback from the audience.

我觉得你的书籍就像是创业者必读书目中的经典。有些事你就是不知道该怎么处理，而这类书会告诉你：'看，这些建议能解答诸多疑问，帮你避开无数麻烦'。所以我很兴奋你能为这个书单增添新内容。说到这里，我们已经来到了激动人心的快问快答环节。

I feel like your books are kind of like in the the staple of founder reading. There's like all these things you just don't know what you're doing. And there's a few of these books that are like, okay, here's all this advice that'll answer so many questions and save you so much heartache. And so I'm really excited you you're adding something to that bookshelf. With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

准备好了吗？开始吧。

Are you ready? Let's go.

开始！你平时最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？

Let's go. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

首先想到的是Alex Ostroval的《商业模式画布》，这是经典之作也是我的最爱。我推荐很多人阅读它，因为它巧妙地从战略商业模式角度串联了我们讨论的许多观点。第二本是《思考，快与慢》，同样堪称经典——毕竟万事都有人性因素，理解客户心理无论对B2C还是B2B都至关重要，因为B2B本质也是人与人的对话。

The first one that comes to mind is Business Model Canvas by Alex Ostroval. It's a classic and one of my favorite books. I recommend a lot of people to read that because I think it nicely ties a lot of what we are also saying from a more strategic business model angle. I like this book, thinking fast, thinking slow. I think that's also a classic because, again, you know, there's always a human element to things, and understanding the customer psychology is important, whether you're in B2C or in B2B, because if you're in a B2B situation, it's humans having a human conversation.

所以这和数字分析同样涉及行为科学。这本书蕴含大量真知灼见，我经常推荐。第三本推荐的是Jonah Berger的《传染力》。作者是斯坦福市场营销博士，这本书系统研究了如何让信息具有病毒式传播力。

So, like, it's as much behavioral as it's actually numbers. So I I love that book, and there's a lot of nuggets in there, so I recommend it a lot. And probably the third one that I recommend is a book called Contagious by Jonah Berger. I love that. He was in the PhD program at Stanford in marketing, and he actually wrote this book on how to make messages viral.

他通过分析最具传播力的案例提炼出方法论，实践这些方法就能制造病毒式传播。我自己在推广中也运用过其中技巧，所以认为这绝对是本不可多得的好书。

And he's actually seen, you know, the best viral messages and boil it down to a framework, and if you follow that, then you can make those messages viral. And I've tried to use some of those in my own outreaches and things of that nature, so I think it's a fantastic read.

哇。

Wow.

你听说了吗

Have you heard

这个？我还没听说。我甚至都没听说过它。好吧，我们会走红的，毕竟我们有秘籍在手。《传染》。

this out? I have not. I haven't even heard of it. All right, well, we're going to go viral, so we got the playbook. Contagious.

那是书名。

That's the name of the book.

《传染》。好的。我们会附上链接。最近有没有你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？

Contagious. Okay. We'll link to that. Is there a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

我想想，电影吧。就选《碟中谍》系列最终章，第八部。我真的超爱整个系列，从一到八都爱。

I guess movie. Sure. Let's pick a movie. Definitely enjoyed Mission Impossible, the final one, eighth in the sequence. I I think I find that a whole I love those the entire genre one through eight.

但我觉得有趣的是，我的付费意愿随时间持续增长。第八部他们随便定什么票价我可能都会去看。这让我想到一个品牌持久力的有趣案例——其变现能力竟能随时间增强。所以我很享受这部电影。

But what I kinda like about it is my willingness to pay has constantly increased over a period of time. They could have charged me whatever they wanted for the eighth movie. I would have probably gone and seen it when I wanted to. So I thought that's an interesting example of a durable brand where your monetization power actually increased over a period of time. So I think I enjoyed the movie.

太棒了。对了，刚发现MI既代表'变现创新'(Monetizing Innovation)，又是'不可能的任务'(Mission Impossible)。说不定潜意识里这也是我喜欢的原因。

It was great. Yeah. Hey, by the way, I just realized, MI stands for monetizing innovation and also Mission Impossible. Maybe subconsciously, that's why I liked it too.

而你就是汤姆·克鲁斯演的那个角色。

And you're the Tom Cruise character.

没错，正是。

Yeah, exactly.

天啊，全世界大概只有你会从付费意愿角度解读《碟中谍》了。

That's so I love how you you're the only person in the world that thinks of Mission Impossible through monetization willingness to pay.

确实如此。我觉得有太多晚餐对话也总是围绕着定价和盈利打转。这简直成了我生活的常态。

Exactly. I think there's too many of these dinner conversations also gravitate towards pricing and and monetization. I think it's become my life.

所以老兄，我们需要一个类似《碟中谍》版的马德哈万电影。当然，我愿意为此付任何价钱。好了，下一个问题。你最近有没有发现特别喜爱的产品？

So, man, we need a version of this movie, like Mission Impossible of Madhavan. Sure. I'd pay anything for that. All right, next question. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

我想谈两个产品。第一个是Delphi，那个数字思维表征工具。其实就是你们推出的Lennie机器人。我觉得这个产品令人着迷，也特别喜欢两位创始人Dara和Sam。我坚信这将成为思想领袖领域的未来，以及消费者获取思想的方式。

I would probably talk about two products. The first one is Delphi, the digital mind representation. That's a Lennie bot that you actually, I think, put out. So, I think I find that product fascinating, and I also love the founders, Dara and Sam, there. I truly believe that that is going to be the future for thought leadership and how thoughts are consumed by consumers.

我使用过你们的Lennie机器人，真的很享受。想象下能通过与'你'对话来共同创作思想领袖内容——虽然那不是真正的你，而是承载着你思维活体的AI，这有多酷？我太喜欢这个产品类别了，它有很多应用场景，比如寿命延长等领域。对这个产品我感到非常兴奋。

And I've used your Lennie bot, I really enjoy it. Like, if I can co create some thought leadership piece with talking to you, but it's not you, you're AI, and it's actually living and breathing your brain, how cool is that? And I think that I really love the product category. There's a lot of different use cases, longevity extension use cases, things of that nature. I'm excited about the product.

我觉得它太棒了。准备以你为灵感，创造一个我自己的Delphi版本。

I think it's been great. Plan to, taking inspiration from you, plan to create a Delphi of myself.

好的，正想问这个问题。

Okay, was going to ask.

或许可以做成书籍的配套产品。我会尝试的，这是个承诺。争取准备好。所以如果你想多聊聊这本书相关事宜或者讨论定价，你也可以和我的AI交流，对吧？

I think it should be something for the book, maybe. I'll try to. That's the promise. Try to keep it ready. So I think if you want to talk more about the book or things of that nature and talk pricing, you can talk to my AI too, right?

我觉得这个产品太有意思了。第二个要说的超级实用生产力工具是granola。我们超爱这个产品，它能做笔记、整理会议记录、建立查询系统等等。这是我们最近开始试用就很喜欢的产品。

I mean, I find the product fascinating. The second one I would probably say that's been super useful in terms of just productivity is granola. We love that product. I think just the ability to take notes and doing all the meetings and organize it and being able to query things, etcetera, I think it's been a great product that we recently started trying, and we've been really liking it.

太棒了。这是最近被提及最多的产品！多酷啊。热爱granola。订阅我的付费通讯lennysnewsletter.com点击bundle，你和整个团队都能获得一年免费使用权。他们提供的优惠太疯狂了。

Cool. That's been the most mentioned product recently. How cool is that? Love granola. Get a year free of granola if you're a paid subscriber to my newsletter, lennysnewsletter.com, click bundle.

关于Delphi，LenniBot最有趣的是它不仅吸收了我的知识，还融入了每位播客嘉宾的见解。这已经发展成了多么庞大的知识宝库啊。

One year free for you, not just you, your whole team. What an offer they offered. It's crazy. On Delphi, what's interesting about LenniBot is it's not just my knowledge, it's every single podcast guest's insights and lessons also fed into it. So it's what an oracle of knowledge this thing's become.

目前它是完全免费的，Lennybot.com。不，我没有从中获利，它就这样开放着。好了，下一个问题。你有没有一条特别喜爱的人生格言，经常在工作中或生活中回顾并觉得很有帮助？

And it's free at this point, completely free. Lennybot.com. No, I get nothing from it, it's just out there. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find useful in work or in life?

你知道的，我的生活格言是：'在你接触的每件事物中创造价值，其他一切自会随之而来。'

You know, create value in everything and anything that you touch, everything else will follow. That's my life motto.

这句话深深共鸣。好的，最后一个问题。你最近转入了投资领域。有趣的是，以前在Simon Kutcher（如果我没记错名字）与你合作的费用非常高，非常高。

That resonates deeply. Okay, last question. You recently moved into investing. So what's cool is you used to be very expensive to work with at Simon Kutcher, I think it was called. Very expensive.

大多是和大公司打交道。现在因为你在投资初创企业，更多创始人能接触到你了。谈谈这个转变吧，聊聊你最近在做的事情。

A lot of big company stuff. Now a lot more founders have access to you because you're investing in startups. So just talk about that. Talk about what you're doing these days.

当然。在Simon Kutcher时，我与超过250家公司合作过，而我的现任联席合伙人Josh Bloom也有机会与超过250家公司合作。所以我们总共合作过的公司超过了500家，其中包括50多家独角兽企业。那是一段很棒的经历。通常我们是在较后期阶段与他们合作，比如D轮融资前后、IPO前后或是私募股权公司等阶段。

Sure. I mean, at at Simon Kutcher, you know, I got to work with over two fifty companies, and my co GP now, Josh Bloom, he also had an opportunity to work with over two fifty companies. So combined, we worked with over 500 companies, more than, you know, 50 plus unicorns. Was a great ride. And often we were actually working with them in much later stages, you know, when in Series D, or pre IPO, post IPO, private equity companies, etcetera.

但现在我们两人明确以早期AI创始人为目标成立了一家风投公司。这回到我们最初讨论的话题——AI公司需要从第一天就考虑盈利模式。但对这类公司来说，按服务收费的交易模式并不总是适用，这也是我们转向风投的原因。目前我们的商业模式相当标准：通过持股介入后，我们会亲自与创始人合作解决盈利问题。

But the two of us actually now started a venture firm with an explicit goal of working with early stage AI founders. And it goes back to the topic that we started with, you know, AI companies needs to deal with monetization from day one. But for those kind of companies, you know, fee for service transaction model doesn't necessarily work, and that's also why we pivoted to, like, venture. So our business model is pretty, you know, pretty standard right now. If you get access in the cap table, we roll up our sleeves and work with the founders in halting monetization.

我们的利益与他们的成功绑定，共同参与价值创造。没有服务费用，杜绝了这类摩擦。另一方面，我们可以集中精力经营第一只基金，大概投资20到25家公司，这些将是我们重点关注的领域。

So we are invested in their success, and we will partake in the value creation. There's no fee for service, no friction on those kind of manners, but on the flip side, we get to concentrate our efforts in Fund one and probably 20 to 25 companies, and that's where we will be spending our time.

真是双赢的安排。最后两个问题：如果想联系你讨论这个投资机会，大家该去哪里找你？听众们如何能对你有所帮助？

What a deal. Manaban, two final questions. Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and talk about this offer? And how can listeners be useful to you?

找到我的方式很简单，谷歌搜索'monetizing innovation'和'scaling innovation'会跳出很多页面。如果想买书也可以上亚马逊，目前《Scaling Innovation》已经开放预售。

Ways to find out. I think just Google for monetizing innovation and scaling innovation. You'll probably land in a lot of pages. You can also go to Amazon, I think, if you wanna purchase the books. They're actually Scaling Innovation is now available in preorder.

在8月5日正式出版前，我们会先发布部分内容。我或许会借鉴你那套我认为是世界最佳的组合销售策略，推出自己的预售组合包。如果你喜欢《Monetizing Innovation》，我保证你会更爱《Scaling Innovation》。现在有个优惠：凡是预购超过五本的读者，发送购买截图给我们——注意是预售订单对吧？

I think we'll have the part released before the book is actually out. The book is gonna be out on August 5, so there's an opportunity to preorder. And maybe I will take an inspiration from your master bundle, which I really think is the world's best bundle, and come up with my own bundle for, like, getting users to, like, preorder. So if you love monetizing innovation, I can tell you you would really love scaling innovation, so go buy it for your teams, buy it for yourself, and here's the offer. So for anyone who's able to buy more than five copies, send us a screenshot of your purchase, pre order, right?

请将您的购买截图发送至promot49pumpsvc.com，即promo（推广）@49palmsvc.com。这是我提供的捆绑优惠：10个人将通过抽奖获得套装，套装内容包括《规模创新》签名版一本、30分钟问答环节、规模创新新书发布会的独家邀请函，以及一件规模创新主题T恤。这就是我设计的捆绑礼包。

Send us a screenshot of your purchase to promot49pumpsvc dot com. So that's promo, as in promotion, at 49palmsvc.com. And here's the bundle offer that I have. 10 people will get access to, you know, bundles as a raffle, and the bundle is going to include a signed copy of Scaling Innovation, a thirty minute ask me anything session, an exclusive invite for a scaling innovation book launch, and also a scaling innovation t shirt. So that's my coming up with a bundle.

虽然我还没准备麦片之类的赠品，但希望这个礼包足够吸引人购买。如果您喜欢这本书，请在亚马逊留下评价——更多评价能让书籍获得自主传播的生命力。这些年来我深深感激创始人和风投社区对《盈利创新》的支持，过去八年有成千上万的书迷为之讨论、写评、在LinkedIn分享，让'产品未动定价先行''价格产品市场匹配'等概念成为创业者词汇。他们的热情参与让我倍感振奋。

I didn't get granola and others to put in for me just yet, but I think this hopefully suffices and is exciting for folks to buy. And, yeah, I mean, if you like the book, please do leave a review on Amazon. That always is helpful because if more people review it, the book takes a life of its own, and I'm really thankful for also the support that I got over the years from founder community, from the venture community for monetizing innovation. I think there's been, you know, over the last eight years, thousands and thousands of fans of the books. They've done a whole lot talking about it, writing reviews, you know, posting on LinkedIn, and, you know, making things like price before product or, you know, price product market price fit and things as a part of founder vocabulary, so I'm very passionate that people actually did that and very thankful for them.

如果您对《规模创新》感到兴奋，我也非常期待您能多多推荐这本书。

So there's also probably, in equal measure, if you're excited about scaling innovation, I would love for you to talk about the book.

太棒了，大家之所以自发推广，正是因为你免费分享了如此多宝贵经验，这些智慧会帮助无数人。

Amazing, and I think the reason people do that is because you give away so much for free. Like, you know, you just shared so much wisdom for free that it's going help so many people, so

是的，我只是努力平衡付出与收获。

it's Yeah, just tried to plan my give and get right there.

天啊，这个回扣太巧妙了！Manovan，今天对话精彩绝伦，非常感谢你的到来。

Oh my god. A good callback. Manovan, this was incredible. Thank you so much for being here.

Lenny，非常感谢，这是我的荣幸。

Thank you so much, Lenny. Was a pleasure.

我也是。再见各位听众！如果觉得本期节目有价值，欢迎在苹果播客、Spotify或其他平台订阅，您的五星评价能帮助更多听众发现我们。

Same. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

访问lenny'spodcast.com可查看往期节目，下期再见！

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com. See you in the next episode.