高速成长手册：莫莉·格雷厄姆在混乱、变革与扩张中的领导力框架

他确实是这么说的。

That is actually what he said.

他总能在同一句话里既贬低你又恭维你。

He manages to, like, insult you and compliment you in one one sentence.

于是，他给了我他团队里的所有可选职位。

So so he, you know, he gave me all these options on his team.

最后他对我说的是：我要去造一部手机。

And then the last one he said to me was like, I'm gonna go build a mobile phone.

你想不想一起来做这件事？

Do you wanna come do you wanna come do that with me?

我当时同时产生了四种反应。

And I had, like, four simultaneous reactions.

第一个想法是：这简直蠢透了。

The first was like, that is incredibly stupid.

我们为什么要做这个？

Why are we doing that?

然后我就想，我们真的要这么做吗？

And then it was like, is that actually a thing that we're doing?

接着我就觉得，哇哦。

And then it was like, woah.

我觉得这听起来还挺有意思的。

I think that sounds kind of fun.

于是我把和Chamath的对话搁置，去找了我的上司Laurie Gohler——她在Facebook长期担任人力资源主管。

And so I left the conversation to Chamath, and I went and asked my boss, Laurie Gohler, who's the head of people at Facebook for a very long time.

比如，我们真的要这么做吗？

Like, is this actually something we're doing?

而她当时的反应是，真不敢相信他给你提了这个建议，随便吧。

And she was like, I can't believe he offered you that, whatever.

而我，你知道的，我基本上就是无法把这个想法从脑海中抹去。

And I and, you know, I I basically just, like, could not get it out of my head.

但感觉就是，这完全说不通，查马斯会来问我，因为我当时在人力资源部门。

But it was like, didn't make any sense, a, that Chamath had asked me because I was in HR.

比如，我在做什么？

Like, what am I doing?

我对移动领域一窍不通。

I know absolutely jack shit about mobile.

但是，你知道，我曾和他合作过一个项目，他可能觉得我还挺聪明。

And, but, you know, I had worked on a project with him, and he, I guess, thought I was smart.

然后我和谢丽尔聊了聊，她说，那个项目两个月后就会结束，但你可以去做，因为你在这里还有工作。

And I I talked to, like, Cheryl, and she was like, well, that project will be dead in two months, but you can do it because you'll still have a job here.

你知道吗？

You know?

我爸爸当时就说，别那么做。

A lot of my dad was like, well, don't do that.

你懂吗？

You know?

总之，很多明智的人都劝我别那么做。

And, anyway, a lot of very wise people being like, don't do that.

但我就是无法把这个念头从脑海中抹去，我的朋友对我说，'你已经证明自己非常擅长这类公司级的项目管理和人力资源工作。'

But, I kinda couldn't get it out of my head, and my friend said to me, you know, you've proven you're really good at this sort of, like, company wide project management and HR.

'为什么不亲自去证明你到底有多优秀呢？'

Why don't you go show yourself how actually good you are?

'这种能力是否可以迁移？'

Like, is this transferable?

所以我接受了那份工作，接下来的六个月里我感觉自己像个彻头彻尾的白痴。

So I took the job, and I spent the next six months feeling like an absolute idiot.

就是，我基本上一直觉得自己像个彻头彻尾的傻瓜。

Like, I basically felt like a total jackass all the time.

我坐在会议室里，周围都是那些聪明绝顶的人，却问着这辈子最愚蠢的问题。

I was sitting in rooms with these, like, brilliant people, you know, asking the dumbest questions of my life.

六个月结束后，施莫斯似乎很得意地给了我人生中最低的绩效评分。

And at the end of the six months, Shmoth, I think, took a lot of pride in giving me, like, the lowest performance rating I've ever gotten in my life.

那种感觉就像是从悬崖上坠落一样。

And, you know, it just felt like falling off a cliff.

然后慢慢地，我记得我经常去台湾出差，因为我们当时确实在做硬件项目。

And he you know, then slowly, I remember I had been doing all these trips to Taiwan because we were actually working on hardware.

有一次我从台湾回来后，在白板上给他画了一个手机布局图，试图向他解释为什么他想做的某些事情是不可行的。

And I, at some point, came back from Taiwan and I, like, drew on a whiteboard for him the layout of a mobile phone and trying to explain to him kind of, like, why something he wanted to do was not possible.

我清晰地记得走出那场会议时的感觉：哦，原来我真的懂一些东西。

And I so vividly remember walking out of that meeting being like, oh, like, I actually know things.

渐渐地，在接下来的三年里，我成为了移动领域的专家。

And slowly, then over the following three years, I became an expert in mobile.

但你知道，那款手机本身对Facebook来说是个巨大的失败，代价惨重。

And I basically you know, the the phone itself was a giant failure, like massive costly failure for Facebook.

然而对我来说，它并非失败。

But it let me it was it was not a failure for me.

这份工作让我明白，我有能力做到那些如果留在人力资源部门连想都不敢想的事情。

It was a huge job that taught me that I was capable of things that I never could have dreamed of if I had stayed in HR.

它让我具备了接手未知领域工作的能力。

It, set me up to be, capable of taking on things that I didn't know about.

所以当查马斯向我推荐这份工作时，他实际上在白板上画了一幅图给我看。

And so Chamath, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard.

他说，你看，

He said, you know, look.

你可以像大多数人那样，把职业发展视为一系列台阶。

You can stay the the the way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs.

你可以选择听查马斯的建议，继续走这些台阶。

You can be boring to use Chamath and stay on these stairs.

只需按部就班地晋升，每两年升职一次，头衔从经理到高级经理再到总监、高级总监，诸如此类。

Just walk up the stairs, and you'll get promoted every two years, and your title will change from manager to senior manager to director to senior director, whatever.

而他却说，但那太无聊了。

And he was like, but that is boring.

他说，更有趣的职业就像跳崖一样。

And he's like, the much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs.

基本上就是你跳下悬崖后，确实会坠落一段时间。

Basically, that you jump off this thing and you do fall, you know, for a period of time.

我总是喜欢说这个过程大约需要六到九个月。

I always like to say it's about six to nine months.

但之后就会出现你爬出来的情况。

But then this thing happens where you climb out.

而且，你知道，他画的图里有个类似J型曲线的路径，基本上能带你到达楼梯永远无法企及的地方。

And, you know, the picture he drew had this j curve sort of, like, basically leading you to places that are way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.

老实说，这确实是我的亲身经历。

And to be totally honest, that has been my experience.

你知道吗？

You know?

承担风险，接受那种可怕的坠落和坠落过程中的体验，绝对是值得的。

That taking risks, accepting the sort of, like, terrible fall and that experience of of falling has been more than worth it.

我之所以提到这个，部分原因是萨拉说的——我经常对高速发展公司里的员工做这类演讲，因为在这样的环境中，放下积木（固有思维）跳下悬崖（勇于冒险）尤为重要，机会实在太多了。

And I you know, part of reason why Sarah mentions it is that I do give this sort of talk to people that are inside of really fast growing companies because it's such an important place to let go of Legos and jump off cliffs because there's so much opportunity.

在这样的环境中，只要你向人们证明自己确实有能力，如果他们相信你是那种可以胜任多种任务的人，你就能获得那些你完全不够资格的机会，但这些机会可能带你到达你从未想象过的高度。

And it is a place where if you prove to people that you're actually good, if they believe that you are the kind of person that they can use to do lots of things, you can get these opportunities that you are just so deeply unqualified for, but they can take you to places that you could never have imagined.

你可以从那些公司里带着技能出来——要知道，这些技能原本没人会合理雇佣你去掌握的。但我在Facebook的产品部门结束了任期，期间还做过商务拓展、硬件开发等各种各样的事情。

You can come out of those companies with skills that you you know, no one would ever have reasonably hired you to do, but I ended my time at Facebook in product, and, you know, did business development and hardware and a whole bunch of stuff along the way.

再说一次，起初没人会雇我去做那些事，但这仅仅是因为我不断对机会说‘是’。

And, again, nobody would have hired me to do that at the beginning, but it's just cause I kept saying yes to things.

莫莉，听这个故事让我起鸡皮疙瘩了。

Molly, I got tingles listening to the story.

哇。

Wow.

听起来熟悉吗，Lenny？

Does it sound familiar, Lenny?

确实熟悉。

It it does.

我想问的是，你知道，跳下悬崖，有时候你会坠落，不断下坠。

And let me I wanna ask is, you know, jumping off a cliff, sometimes you fall, you fall, and you keep falling.

有没有什么特征能判断，比如这个可能是J型曲线值得冒险坠落，而这种情况可能就应该避免去做？

Are there any kind of, traits of like, okay, this is one that might be a j curve and worth the risk of falling, and this is when, you should probably just not let's not do this.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，我认为恐惧分很多种。

So, you know, I just think there are different kinds of fear.

我们在Glue Club经常讨论这个，因为其中有一种是财务上的恐惧。

And, you know, we talk a lot about this in Glue Club because one of the thing you know, there's there is, like, a financial fear.

对吧？

Right?

比如，辞去工作去承担有经济风险的新工作，或者辞职休息一段时间——这是我经常与人探讨的话题。

Like, leaving a job and taking a job that has financial risk associated with it or leaving a job and taking time off, which is something I spend a lot of time talking to people about.

你得算清楚这笔账。

You gotta do the math.

明白吗？

You know?

有时候某种恐惧感会告诉你：现在不是合适的时机，或者我不想连续几个月都处于财务焦虑中。

And you gotta sometimes there is a type of fear that is telling you, like, this is not the right time, or I don't wanna be financially anxious for months and months and months.

我以财务为例，因为这是最具体的恐惧类型，你确实应该倾听这种恐惧。

I use finances because it's the most concrete example of, like, a type of fear that you should actually listen to.

有时候你可以算算账，你知道，我总是这样给人们提供建议。

And sometimes you can do the math, and, you know, I always counsel people through that.

我会问：你需要达到什么数字才能在经济上不再持续感到恐慌？

I'm like, what is the number that you need to hit so that you're not constantly terrified financially?

而这个数字，你知道，根据每个人的背景和生活状况会有天壤之别。

And that number is, you know, wildly different for people based on their background and their life.

你能做到吗？

Can you do that?

你知道吗？

You know?

你能咨询一下吗？

Can you consult?

你能做些什么来迈出这一步？

Can you whatever in order to to to take this leap?

但很多时候恐惧只是你在说‘我害怕我做不到’。

But a lot of times fear is just you saying I'm scared I can't do this.

我害怕我没有这个能力。

I'm scared I'm not capable of it.

我害怕我，是的。

I'm scared that I, yeah.

我害怕我会失败。

I'm scared I'll fail.

这种恐惧在我看来就像闪烁的绿灯。

And that's the kind of fear that I think of as, like, a flashing green light.

因为我就像马特·麦金尼斯说的那样——这种恐惧其实在说：为什么不去向自己证明你确实有能力做到这件事？

Because I'm like that in sounds like Matt McGinniss said this too where it's like, that's the kind of fear that's saying, why don't you go prove to yourself that you are actually capable of this?

或者即使失败，你也会有所收获。

Or if you fail, like, you'll have learned something too.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

你会学到，就像我在Facebook的最后阶段接手了产品部门的工作。

You'll have learned like, I took this job in product at Facebook, you know, as my last chapter there.

让我告诉你，有些工作人们真他妈不该雇我来做。

And let me tell you things that people should never fucking hire me to do.

比如，我不是个好产品经理，但我绝不会——我具备优秀的产品思维。

Like, I am not a good product manager, but I would never I'm a I've got a great product mindset.

我可以坐在各种会议上和产品团队混在一起，但说真的，我不是那种会纠结按钮细节的人。

I can sit know, in a bunch of chairs and and and hang with the product folks, but, like, I'm not the person that cares about the button.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

而我，永远也不会学到那些。

And I, would never have learned that.

如果我没有冒那个险，我就不会知道自己是谁，即使失败了，或者至少明白那不是我愿意再尝试的事情。

I wouldn't have known kind of who I was if I hadn't taken that risk and, you know, failed or or at least learned that it's not something I wanted to do again.

所以，面对那些恐惧并跳下悬崖，能带来许多不同的教训。

So there's many different lessons that come from facing down those fears and and jumping off the cliff.

你知道吗？

You know?

但最重要的是更了解自己，并知道接下来该往哪里走。

But mostly what it is is knowing yourself better and knowing where you go next from there.

这真是非常有帮助的建议。

That is such helpful advice.

我也很喜欢你表达的方式——向自己证明你能做到这件事。

I also love how you frame this of prove it to yourself that you can do this.

而不是‘我要向他们证明我能做到’。

It's not, I'm gonna show them that I can do this.

因为你描述的方式通常是别人给你的机会。

Because the way you describe this, usually, it's an opportunity given to you.

嘿。

Hey.

你能做这件事吗？

Can you do this thing?

我们希望由你来领导这个新项目。

We want you to lead this new thing.

而恐惧会让人想着：我觉得我做不到。

And the fear is like, I don't think I can do that.

你这里说的是向自己证明你能做到，或者我想说做不到也没关系。

And what you're saying here is prove it to yourself that you can, or I guess it's also okay.

也许我确实做不到，但我会从中吸取教训，从而更了解自己。

Maybe I can't, and then I'll learn that, and then I'll know more about myself.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我是说，职业生涯中最宝贵的礼物之一就是了解自己。

I mean, one of the greatest gifts in a career is knowing yourself.

明白吗？

You know?

而且，这是一段终身的旅程，因为你的身份和你的需求会不断变化。

And, that's a that's a lifelong journey, because who you are and what you want changes.

但那种认知和那份礼物——没有什么比尝试去做一件你不懂且害怕的事情更能加速你的自我认知了。

But that knowledge and that gift, like, nothing accelerates your self knowledge faster than trying to do something that you don't know how to do and that you're scared of.

当你说到这时，我脑海里又浮现出我在这个播客里最常引用的一句话：你所恐惧的洞穴里藏着你所追寻的宝藏。

There's this probably the quote I use most on this podcast comes up, again, in my mind as you talk about this, this line that the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek.

太对了。

Hell yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

说得好。

Well said.

就是这样。

There it is.

我还没听你这么清晰地表达过这句话。

I haven't heard that one from you so clearly.

我需要倾听。

I need to listen.

那太好了。

That's great.

很高兴我没有过度使用它。

I'm glad I don't overuse it.

感觉它总是反复出现。

It just feels like it comes up again and again.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我认为你关于跑道和财务的观点非常重要，因为这是个非常实际的问题。

And I think your point about the runway and the finances is such an important one, like, because that's a very real practical question.

我离职后，休息时间到了休息时间翻译

One thing I did when I took time off, I took a year off after I left my job.

休息时间

What helped me was I just created a runway goal for myself.

我就想，好吧。

I'm just like, okay.

这是我六个月或一年没有收入的生活成本。

Here's what it's gonna cost me for six months or a year to live without any income.

你对于就这样花掉这几万美元去探索和等待新事物出现感到安心吗？

Am I comfortable just burning through these tens of thousands of dollars to explore and see something new emerge?

所以你必须感觉良好。

And so that you just have to feel good.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yes.

我会把那笔钱全花光。

I'm gonna burn all that money.

这正是练习的一部分。

That's part of exactly the exercise.

你知道，我是说你在说'跑道'。

You know, I you're you're saying runway.

我说的是'烧钱速度'。

I say burn rate.

所以，就像我们俩都是在科技公司的环境中成长起来的。

So, like, we both were raised inside of companies, of tech.

但但我认为关键是要算清楚这笔账。

But but I think it is do the math.

对吧？

Right?

你能承担多少？

What can you afford?

这既关乎你能承担多少，又关乎在承担的同时仍感到安全。

What and it's both what can you afford and still feel safe?

因为有时候，我是说，我认为这对每个人来说都不一样，但这是一组非常重要的计算，因为很多时候这个数字比你想象的要小，比你的大脑在存在性财务焦虑下所认为的要小。就像我常说的，具体的财务焦虑比存在性的财务焦虑要有用得多。

Because sometime I mean, again, I think that that is different for everyone, but it is such an important set of math to do because, a, a lot of times that number is smaller than you think it is, like, than your brain makes it out to be if you have this sort of, like, existential financial anxiety versus, like I always say, like, specific financial anxiety is much more useful than existential financial anxiety.

而且，你知道，有些朋友正在离职，我会说，嘿。

And and, you know, you know, some friends are leaving jobs and I'll be like, hey.

你知道，你的数字是每月5千或1万。

You know, your number is 5 k or 10 k a month.

你必须相信自己能找到一份咨询工作来支付这笔费用。

You have to believe that you can get a consulting gig that will pay you that.

你相信吗？

Do you believe that?

你知道吗？

You know?

而且就像是二选一，然后，好吧。

And and it's like either yes or no, and then, okay.

我们要么在做，要么没在做。

Either we're doing it or we're not.

你懂吗？

You know?

我认为J曲线的另一个重要部分是，在最初的六到九个月里，你会处于J曲线的底部，就像在不断下坠。

The other part of this j curve that I think is really important to touch on is this idea of for the first six or nine months, you're gonna be at the bottom of the j curve, like falling, still falling.

是的。

Yeah.

有些项目持续时间没那么长，然后你就会觉得，好吧。

And some projects don't last that long, and then you're like, okay.

彻底失败了。

Total failure.

我从未从这次坠落中走出来。

I never emerged from this fall.

那么在这方面有什么建议吗？比如如何创造足够的空间让自己有机会开始展开？

So is there any advice there of just, like, how do you create that enough space to give you a chance to start to unfold?

我的意思是，在下坠过程中最有价值的事情就是学习。

I mean, the the most valuable thing that happens as you fall is learning.

即使在失败的彼岸，你也已经学到了很多。

And even on the other side of failure, you've learned a shit ton.

就像我常说的，在坠落阶段和冒险领域最重要的事，就是学会做一个专业的傻瓜。

Like, I always say, like, most important thing to do in the falling phase and the risk taking land is to learn to embrace being a professional idiot.

你知道吗？

You know?

基本上，就是成为那个在会议上出现然后问‘我们在讨论什么？’的人。

Basically, being the one that shows up at the meeting and is like, what are we talking about?

比如‘这个词是什么意思？’

Like, what does that word mean?

这有很多原因。

Because for a bunch of reasons.

第一，你能学到很多。

Number one, you can learn so much.

而且，即使在失败面前，也没人能夺走你学到的东西。

And, again, even in the face of failure, no one can take away your learning.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

但另一方面，事实证明，世界上很多问题——当你坐在会议中时，你会觉得'这是个愚蠢的问题'。

But the other thing is that, like, it turns out that a lot of the questions in the world that you you're sitting in the meeting and you're like, this is a dumb question.

就像，'大家都会认为我是个白痴'，但当你鼓起勇气问出来时，却发现那并不是个愚蠢的问题。

Like, I'm gonna everyone's gonna think I'm an idiot, but then you get brave and you ask it, and it turns out it wasn't a dumb question.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

结果发现每个人心里都有那个疑问，但没人有勇气提出来。

Like, turns out that everyone had that question in their mind, but no one was brave enough to ask it.

所以从技能角度来看，无论结果如何，成为那个主动掌握学习、坚持学习并敢于提出那些‘愚蠢’问题的人，这是一种超能力。

So from a skills perspective, again, regardless of outcome, being the person that sort of, takes their learning in their own hands, learning no matter what, and learning to sort of, like, ask those dumb questions, it's a superpower.

我常说，实际上我的超能力就是做一个专业的傻瓜，因为我会在会议上直接问‘我们有目标吗？’

I always say that, like, actually, my superpower is being a professional moron because I'm the one that shows up in a room and is like, do we have goals?

比如，我们到底在做什么？

Like, what what are we doing?

为什么我们要讨论这个？

What are why are we talking about this?

我们为什么要开这个会？

Why are we having this meeting?

大多数时候，这正是我被雇来做的——带来清晰度。

And most of the time, it's actually what I was hired to do, which is bring clarity.

这太有趣了。

It's so funny.

我刚和一位名叫泽维的Wix产品经理录了一期播客，他也有这种想法。

I just recorded a a podcast episode with a PM named, Zevi who joined Wix, and he had this thought.

他是个非常年轻的产品经理，刚刚起步。

He's like a very young PM, just getting started.

然后他说，好吧。

And he's like, okay.

我需要成为十倍高效的产品经理，因为这是他们对我的期望。

I need to be at ten x PM because that's what they expect of me.

所有真正优秀的人都是这样的。

That's what everyone that is really good.

这就是我对十倍效能产品经理的理解。

That's how I think about ten x PM.

然后他参加了第一次会议，结果搞砸了。

And then he went into his first meeting and he just failed.

他感到非常沮丧。

And he just felt so bad.

他想，看来我并不是那种十倍效能的产品经理。

He's like, I guess I'm not that ten x p m.

大家都会看出来的。

They're all gonna see that.

他们都会觉得我很糟糕。

They're all gonna they think I'm terrible.

但后来他又做了一次演示，人们对他学习、进化和提升的速度印象深刻。

And then he did another presentation a little bit later and people were so impressed with how he learned and evolved and improved.

于是他意识到，自己需要成为的不是十倍效能的产品经理，而是十倍速的学习者。

And he realized that he needs to be not a 10x PM, but a 10x learner.

而这正是人们对某人，尤其是对初入职场者的期待。

And that's what people actually expect from someone, especially a junior person.

是的。

Yeah.

昨晚我和一位朋友聊天，他的孩子正在读高中四年级。

Well and I was having a conversation last night with a friend of mine who has a senior in high school.

我就问，那有什么计划呢？

And I was like, what what is the plan?

那么，考虑到AI带来的种种变化，我们应该告诉这位高中生如何思考他们的职业规划呢？

Like, what are we telling this senior in high school, like, to think about relative to their career given everything that's going on with AI?

我们讨论了很多，但最终都回归到软技能这个概念——实际上，现在唯一能真正依靠的就是培养孩子的毅力、勤奋精神和学习能力。

And we talked about it a bunch, but what we both circled back to was this idea of soft skills and that that actually, like, the only thing you can really anchor on right now is that, you know, teaching kids grit, teaching them hard work, teaching them learning.

对吧？

Right?

比如学会如何学习、热爱学习，在这个飞速变化的世界里能够紧跟步伐。

Like, learning how to learn, loving learning, being able to follow in in a world that's changing this fast.

我在公司内部也这么说。

And and I say this inside of companies too.

对吧？

Right?

我总是说，你今天所知道的远不如你明天能学到的有价值。

I always say, like, what you know today is way less valuable than what you can learn by tomorrow.

如果你所在的公司增长曲线是这样的，那么你今天所知道的就毫无意义。

If you're inside of a company where the growth curve is like this, what you know today is, like, irrelevant.

有人曾告诉我，虽然现在肯定更快了，但谷歌每八年就会重写整个代码库，这意味着如果你不学习、不进化，就会变得无关紧要并被淘汰。

Somebody once told me they re I'm sure this is faster now, but they rewrote the entire code base at Google every eight years, which means that, like, if you're not learning, if you're not evolving, then you become irrelevant and extinct.

这实际上正是乐高理念的核心——进化是保持领先的方式，我认为这在今天比以往任何时候都更为真实。

It's actually the whole sort of, like, underlying point of the LEGOs stuff is that, like, evolution is the way you stay on top, and I think that's more true today than it's ever been.

幸运的是，人工智能非常擅长帮助我们学习。

And luckily, AI is really good at helping us learn.

完全同意。

Totally.

那很好。

So that's good.

谢谢你，AI。

Thank you, AI.

是啊。

Yeah.

这其实在播客里经常出现。

And this this actually comes up a bunch in the podcast.

我问了很多关注AI的人他们在教孩子什么，而好奇心是人们谈论最多的主题之一，就是要帮助他们对世界保持好奇心。

I ask a lot of AI forward people what they're teaching their kids, and curiosity is one of the main things people talk lot about just to, like, make them help them develop curiosity about the world and yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这个话题足够做一整期播客了，不过我想继续聊聊你开发的其他几个框架。

I feel like I could be talking about this specific topic for a whole podcast episode, but I wanna move on to a couple other frameworks that you've developed.

其中一个叫做水位模型，你的另一位前同事表示，这是他们在职业生涯中从你那里学到的最具影响力的事物。

One is something called the waterline model, and another former colleague of yours said this is the most impact impactful thing that was that they've learned from you on their career.

那么谈谈水位模型吧。

So talk about the waterline model.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

首先，水位模型并非我的原创。

Well, first of all, the waterline model is not mine.

它出自某本商业书籍，但我确实学习过。

It's something it's from some business book somewhere, but I actually learned it.

我大学毕业后的第一份工作是带领野外探险。

So my first job out of college was leading wilderness trips.

我曾为诺尔斯国家户外领导力学校带队，在巴塔哥尼亚和阿拉斯加进行为期75天的荒野之旅。

I led, seventy five day wilderness trips in Patagonia and Alaska for a school called Knowles, the National Outdoor Leadership School.

诺尔斯基本上是在向学生传授领导力和沟通技巧。

And Knowles basically teaches essentially leadership and communication skills to students.

我主要带领的是大学生年龄段的孩子们进行野外探险。

Mostly I was mostly leading, like, college age kids, through wilderness expeditions.

因此需要带领一群你不熟悉的同龄人。

So by having to lead a group of your peers that you don't know.

总之，水位线模型是我们在诺尔斯教授的内容，这是一个非常非常有用的模型，用于诊断团队中出现的问题。

Anyway, the waterline model is something that we taught on Knowles, and it's a really, really helpful model for understanding how to diagnose when something is not working on a team.

所以我在Glute Club里教授这个模型，我会快速解释一下。

And so I teach it inside of Glute Club, and I'll just quickly explain it.

简单来说，理解水位线模型的方式是把团队想象成一艘船，一艘在海洋中航行的船，试图到达某个目的地。

So, basically, the way to think about the waterline model is that a team is a boat, and it's a boat on an ocean trying to get somewhere.

到达目的地就是目标。

Getting somewhere is goals.

对吧？

Right?

我们试图构建、交付或实现的目标是什么？

Where what are we trying to build or ship or, do?

本质上，这将根据海洋的具体形态而变得或难或易。

And, essentially, that is going to be harder, easier based on whatever the shape of the ocean is.

对吧？

Right?

如果波涛汹涌，航行就会艰难；若海面平静，达成目标就会容易得多。

If it's really choppy, it's harder, it's smooth and calm, it's gonna be easy to get to your goals.

所以水线模型基本上是在问：水面之下发生了什么？

So the the waterline basically asks the question, like, what is going on under the water?

是什么因素让你更难或更容易达成目标？

What is going on that's making it harder or easier to get to your goals?

水面之下基本上有四个要素，它们按重要性降序排列。

And there's essentially four things underneath the water, and they are in a descending order.

最表层的是所谓的结构性因素。

So the surface level is what's called structural things.

而基本上，结构性事物指的是目标设定、愿景、角色、期望这类你为团队、公司和企业建立的框架，它们影响着团队中的每一个成员。

And, basically, structural things are like goal setting, vision, roles, expectations, like kind of the structures you put in place to make a team and a company and a business make sense, that touch every single member of the team.

紧接着下一层是所谓的动态因素，这本质上指的是团队如何协同工作。

Right below that is something called dynamics, which is essentially like how the team works together.

是文化因素。

It's culture.

是决策机制。

It's decision making.

这是我们解决冲突的方式。

It's how we resolve conflict.

所有这些都是关于团队如何协同工作的交织部分。

All the sort of, like, interwoven, pieces of how teams work together.

而在这之下是人际层面。

And then below that is interpersonal.

基本上，就是两个人之间的关系，以及所有随之而来的人性因素。

So, basically, relationships between two people and all of the things that come with us being humans.

最底层是个人内在层面，即一个人内部存在的挑战和问题。

And then the bottom is intrapersonal, meaning within one person challenges and issues there.

这个模型有趣的地方在于，当团队出现问题时，大多数人往往首先归咎于最底层。

And the interesting thing about this model is that most people, when we when something's going wrong on a team, a lot of times we always go to the bottom.

我们首先想到的是人的问题。

We go to the people.

我们会说，这些人相处不来。

We're like, the people aren't getting along.

那个人正处于艰难时期。

That person's having a rough moment.

我们总是归因于人的因素。

We go to the humans.

但水线模型有一条非常容易记住的规则：在深潜之前先浮潜观察。

But the rule with the waterline model, which is very memorable memorable is you snorkel before you scuba.

实际上，团队中80%的问题源于结构性问题或动态性问题。

So 80% of problems on teams actually happen because of structural issues or dynamics issues.

所以当你的团队出现问题时，你应该从顶层开始着手。

So when there are problems on your team, where you start is at the top.

从结构性问题入手。

You start structural issues.

我在Blue Club里反复强调的一点是：作为管理者，即便其他什么都不做，你的唯一目标就是明确角色和清晰期望。

And one of my biggest things that I say all the time over and over again inside of Blue Club is your only goal as a manager, if you do nothing else, is clear roles and clear expectations.

仅此而已。

That's it.

说实话，我这辈子接手过很多团队，几乎每次我一上任就发现，没人清楚0知道他们的工作内容，也没人清楚成功的标准是什么。

Because honestly, like, I've taken over a lot of teams in my life, and almost always I show up, and it turns out that no one knows what their job is and no one knows what success looks like.

如果你能明确这两点——再说一遍，这是在第一个层次——就能解决团队中大部分的其他问题。

And if you can make those two things clear, which again is at the snorkel level, it will fix, you know, a huge percentage of other issues on a team.

但关键在于，你从何处着手，始终要从结构层面或动态层面开始，而不是直接归咎于个人及其●●●

But the main thing is, like, where you start and just always sort of starting at that structural level or the dynamics level and not sort of immediately going to the people and and all that.

因为 80●●●，虽然人确实会引发各种问题，但很多时候问题源于他们所处的结构本身就令人困惑

Because, yes, people cause all sorts of problems, but a lot of times they the problems are happening because they're existing inside of a structure that's confusing.

又一个非常生动的比喻，而且我很喜欢它如何通过浮潜这个比喻来展开。

Another very vivid metaphor, and just I love how it builds on it with this the snorkeling.

好的。

Okay.

所以为了非常明确这一点，这里的关键收获是：当你的团队或公司出现问题时。

So just to be super clear about this, the takeaway here is you have a problem with your team, with the company.

很多人会直接跳到认为人员是问题的根源。

Many people think it's they jump to, like, the people are the problem.

他们不够优秀。

They're not good enough.

他们不够努力。

They're not working hard enough.

但实际上，你所说的是大多数情况下问题并不在于人。

Really, what you're saying is most often, the issue is not the person.

而在于情境，无论是他们的工作架构设置还是人际间的动态关系。

It's the situation, whether it's the structure of how they're set up to work or the dynamics amongst the people.

具体来说，你的意思是，可能是角色不明确，或者对该角色而言成功的定义不清晰？

And specifically, what you're saying is it, like, the role maybe isn't clear or what success means and, for that role is not clear?

你知道，我合作或咨询过的每一家公司，我通常会先问：目标是什么？

You know, every company I've worked with or advised, like, I often start with, like, what are the goals?

通常得到的回答都是：不明确。

And usually, what you get back is, not clear.

而且

And

这本身就是个结构性问题。

that in and of itself is a structural issue.

对吧？

Right?

如果目标不明确，如果他们实际上不知道优先级是什么，一个人怎么能决定自己整天要做什么呢？

How can someone show up and decide what they're gonna do with their day all day if the goals aren't clear, if they don't actually know what the priorities are?

然后这就涉及到角色问题了。

And then it goes to like, okay, role.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我清楚自己的工作职责吗？

Like, do I know what my job is?

我知道我被雇来负责和推动的具体指标是什么吗？

Do I know what number I'm was hired to own and drive?

还有，我清楚成功的标准是什么样吗？

And then, like, do I know what success looks like?

我的角色如何与公司那个明摆着的整体目标挂钩？

How does my role tie to that overall goal that the company just literally right there.

公司里大概80%的问题都源于此，因为这是企业建设中最艰难的部分。

You got, like, probably 80 of problems inside of companies because this is the hard work of company building.

这些都不是凭直觉就能明白的事。

Like, it's the stuff that's not intuitive.

你该如何组织一群人让他们知道该往哪个方向划桨？

How do you organize a group of people to know which direction to row?

你明白吗？

You know?

还是那个公式，我敢说80%的问题，那些绩效问题，通常都始于这个人是否真正清楚你对他们的期望。

And that equation, again, I would say 80% of problems that I see, performance issues, like, always start with, does this person actually know what you expect of them?

如果不清楚，就回到第一步。

If not, go back to step one.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

明确期望。

Clarify expectations.

所以'吃水线'模型的作用就是提醒我们，要从顶层开始。

So the Waterline model is just helpful for reminding us, like, start at the top.

那么在这种情况下你会怎么做？

So what would you do there?

假设你是一名经理。

Say you're a manager.

你和团队成员之间出现了问题。

You're having an issue with team member.

你会去询问，嘿，

Would you go and ask, hey.

我们得先确保目标和角色是一致的。

Let's just make sure we're aligned on goals and roles.

这就是你的处理方式吗，还是有其他不同的方法？

Is that is that how you approach it, is there a different approach?

很多时候我的做法是双管齐下。

So a lot of times what I do is two sided.

对吧？

Right?

就像这样，嘿，

So it's like, hey.

告诉我我观察到的现象，然后说说你那边的情况。

Tell me here's what I'm seeing, and tell me what's going on for you.

比如，你知不知道xyz？

Like, do you know do you know x y z?

告诉我你知道什么，当我接手一个团队时，在进行所谓的'倾听之旅'时，我部分询问的是你认为你的工作是什么？

Do know what tell me what you know, when I when I take over a team, when I'm doing my sort of, like, listening tour, part of what I'm asking is what do you think your job is?

你被雇来推动什么数字指标？

What do you what number were you hired to drive?

因为你会发现，通常他们的理解与你的理解不同。

Because what you'll find is often, like, their picture is different than your picture.

你以为自己已经表达得很清楚了。

You think you've been clear.

但不知怎么的，他们理解得南辕北辙——你描述的是大象，他们却理解成老虎。

They somehow got you know, you described an elephant and they spat out a tiger.

于是你不得不回到原点，好吧。

And you that coming back to like, okay.

不对。

No.

我们正在构建一头大象。

We're building an elephant.

你负责象鼻部分。

You're in charge of the trunk.

要知道，在某些情况下，这会极大地影响一个人的工作、时间和表现。

Will, you know, in some percentage of cases actually make a huge difference to the person's work and time and performance.

而且，在很多情况下，它并不重要，但我总是会从这里开始，因为它往往是一个更根本的问题，从而引导你去审视团队中的其他方面。

And, you know, in plenty of cases, it doesn't, but that's always where I would start because it, so often, is just like a more fundamental problem that then would lead you to to look at other things across the team.

但是，是的，这就是我说的双向对话，不过重新明确角色和期望，一遍又一遍地重新描述大象，是作为领导者最困难的部分之一，因为你感觉自己像个坏掉的唱片。

But, yeah, that's I I would say two way dialogue, but reclarifying roles and expectations, redescribing the elephant over and over and over again is one of the hardest parts about being a leader because you feel like a broken record.

对吧？

Right?

你会觉得自己像个白痴。

You feel like an idiot.

你会想，这话我已经说了45遍了。

You're like, I've said this 45 times.

结果发现前43次根本没人听进去，你必须反复说明才能让人理解，并重新认识他们的角色和职责。

Turns out no one heard you the first 43, and you have to you have to re describe it in order for people to hear you and to reunderstand their sort of role and what they're doing.

我很喜欢你重新构建我处理问题的方式，从‘这是我观察到的’开始。

I love how you, reframe the way I approach it by starting with, here's what I'm seeing.

你观察到什么了？

What are you seeing?

你你你觉得你

What what what do you

的角色是什么？

think your role is?

非常符合非暴力沟通的理念，这在本播客中是个明显模式，这种特定框架的力量。

The very, like, nonviolent communication oriented, which is a clear pattern on this podcast, just the power of that specific framework.

是啊。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

正如我所说，工作关乎人性，是一门关于如何组织人力完成目标、构建超越个体总和之伟业的艺术。

Well, like I said, work is about humans, and it's the art of sort of, like, organizing humans to get something done and build something that's great greater than the sum of its parts.

这体现了我们所有人性中共有的艺术特质。

And that is an art of sort of the humanness in all of us.

我们如何让人们倾听我们？

How do we get people to hear us?

我们如何让人们达成共识？

How do we get people aligned?

终身的事业。

Work for a lifetime.

完全同意。

Totally.

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如果你转移现有的捐赠者建议基金，他们甚至会承担你的DAF支付费用。

They'll even cover your DAF pay fees if you transfer your existing DAF over.

请访问gofundme.com/lenny开启您的捐赠基金。

That's gofundme.com/lenny to start your giving fund.

好的。

Okay.

那么让我来继续前进前进

So let me actually follow this thread of the importance of goals and just being clear around this stuff.

你有这六条规则，用于在团队中建立清晰的目标和一致性。

You have these, six rules for creating clear goals and alignment on teams.

谈谈这六条规则。

Talk about these six rules.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

我觉得应该少于六条规则，但现状就是如此。

I feel like there should be less than six, but it's where it's where we're at.

在具体讲这六条之前，我想先概括两点。

I would say at a high level, two things before I get to the six.

首先，我对OKR（目标与关键成果）确实有些意见。

One is that I definitely have a bone to pick with OKRs.

我觉得，你知道，这个框架显然对谷歌和其他公司很有帮助。

I feel like it's, you know, it's obviously been a really helpful framework for Google and others.

很多时候当我走进一家公司或与一位领导者交谈时，我会问‘你们的目标是什么？’

And a lot of times when I show up inside a company or I'm talking to a leader and I'm like, you know, what are your goals?

得到的回复往往是像是一张有100行、读起来像希腊文写成的电子表格。

What I get back is this, like, spreadsheet that has, like, a 100 lines and is feels like it's written in Greek.

而且，当我审视它时，我会想，这对任何人都无法带来清晰度。

And, like, I when I look at it, I'm like, this this doesn't create clarity for anyone.

这让我重新思考，目标的意义究竟是什么？

And it brings me back to sort of, like, what what is the point of goals?

我们为什么要设定这些目标？

What why do we have them?

归根结底，目标是一种沟通工具。

And at the end of the day, goals are a communication tool.

这就是它们的本质。

That's what they are.

它们是用来创造清晰度的沟通工具，帮助人们知道'我坐到办公桌前该做什么'。

They are a communication tool designed to create clarity, to help people know, I'm gonna show up at my desk.

我应该专注于什么？

What should I work on?

什么是最重要的事？

What's the most important thing?

而你那份百行的电子表格对任何人都没有帮助。

And your 100 line spreadsheet doesn't help anybody.

我想说的第二点是，你必须真正问问自己：'在我的公司当前阶段，什么才是适合我们的？'

And the second thing I would just say is, like, you really have to ask the question, what is right for me at my this company and this stage?

对于种子阶段的公司来说，什么才是合适的？这显然不同于那些已建立业务并拥有明确市场推广机制的企业。

What is right for a seed stage company if not what is right for, you know, a company that's got an established business and a clear go to market machine.

所以，在种子阶段进行建设时，我会以非常迭代的方式每两个月设定一次目标。

So, you know, when I'm building in seed stage, I'm setting goals every two months in a very iterative way.

当我拥有成熟业务时，实际上可以制定年度目标。

When I have an established business, I can actually set annual goals.

但对早期阶段的公司来说，制定年度目标纯粹是浪费时间。

But annual goals for early stage companies is just like a waste of time.

总之，我的很多目标设定方法其实来自Facebook，我认为他们在这方面做得非常非常好。

So, anyway, a lot of my goal setting stuff actually comes from Facebook, which I think was very, very good at this.

第一条规则是，任何公司都不需要超过三个公司目标。

So the first rule is that no company needs more than three company goals.

公司目标的目的是帮助人们了解对成功最关键的事项是什么。

And the point of company goals is to help people know what the most important things are to success.

基本上，我在Facebook的整个期间，他们只有三个目标。

So Facebook basically had three goals for the entire time I was there.

那是五年的时间。

It was five years.

我们当时设定了六个月的目标。

And we did, you know, six month goal setting.

我想我们设定了年度目标，但最终每六个月就重置一次，不过无所谓了。

I think we did annual goal setting that ended up getting reset every six months, but whatever.

这三个目标分别是这样。

So the three goals were this.

第一项目标是增长，以月活跃用户数衡量。

There was growth, which was measured as monthly active users.

这个数字最终成为对外报告的数据，即MAU（月活跃用户）。

That was the externally reported number eventually, MAUs.

第二项目标是用户参与度，即人们回访和使用网站的频率。

The second goal was engagement, meaning how often do people come back and use the site.

第三项目标则是营收。

And the third was revenue.

在我任职的五年里，我们实际上只有三个目标。

And we literally had three goals for the five years that I was there.

如果你能用三个目标来管理那家企业，那么你完全可以用三个目标来管理任何企业。

If you can govern that business with three goals, you can govern literally any business with three goals.

所以任何公司都不需要超过三个目标。

So no company needs more than three goals.

第二点是，在冲突中必须有一个目标能胜出。

The second thing is that one goal needs to win in a fight.

所以当我坐下来思考，如何在某一天优先安排我的时间？

So if I'm sitting down and asking, how do I prioritize my time on a given day?

我需要知道什么是最重要的事情。

I need to know what is the most important thing.

你知道，在Facebook，我们追求的是增长。

You know, at Facebook, we had growth.

对吧？

Right?

为社交媒体网站增加月活跃用户有很多种方法，包括你可以去印尼购买大量机器人账号，这会增加你的MAU数据，但不会提升用户参与度。

And there's a lot of different ways you can add monthly active users to a social media site, including you can go buy a whole bunch of bots in Indonesia, and that would add to your MAU number, but it would not add to your engagement number.

在我任职的整个期间，有一点非常明确：用户参与度才是最重要的。

And it was very clear for the entire time that I was there that engagement was the most important thing.

获取那些会频繁使用网站的用户，这才是推动收入增长的关键。

Acquiring users that were gonna use the site all the time, that's what drives revenue.

这也是驱动那个网站核心价值的关键所在。

It's also what drove, you know, sort of the heart of that site.

所以如果你必须优先处理某事，你会优先考虑用户参与度。

So if you had to prioritize something, you prioritized engagement.

这个目标在竞争中胜出。

That goal won in the fight.

第三点我要说的是，我称之为‘用五岁小孩能听懂的方式解释’的目标。

The third I'll say is, I call it the explain it to me, like, I'm five goal.

但是，就像周一刚入职的实习生也应该能看懂并理解你们的目标。

But, like, an intern that started on Monday should be able to look at your goals and understand them.

如果他们无法理解，那你就失败了，因为它们不是有效的沟通工具。

And if they can't, then you are failing because they are not a communication tool that's effective.

你必须能够理解这些目标。

You have to be able to understand the goals.

你必须解释那些缩写词。

You have to explain the acronyms.

你必须使用对普通人来说有意义的数字。

You have to have numbers that make sense to average people.

否则，它作为沟通工具就再次失效了。

Otherwise, again, it fails as a communication tool.

第四点其实是，我借用了克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊的一句话，她上过你们的播客，写了本叫《规模化团队》的书。

The fourth one is, actually, I I stole a phrase from Claire Hughes Johnson who, you've had on your podcast, but wrote a book called scaling people.

她在书里说了句我很喜欢的话：战略战略应该让人感到痛苦。

And in it, she says this sentence that I love, which is strategy strategy should hurt.

你知道，我过去的职责之一就是设定非目标。

And, you know, I my my role used to be, like, set non goals.

基本上，要像明确你要做什么一样，明确你不会做什么。

Basically, make it as clear what you're not gonna do as what you are gonna do.

但'战略应当带来阵痛'是向人们解释这一点的更好方式，即如果你没有做出令人痛苦的选择，你实际上并没有帮助人们优先安排他们的时间。

But strategy should hurt is a much better way to explain it to people, which is if you're not making trade offs that are painful, you are not actually helping people prioritize their time.

因为工作的本质就是人们每天都会出现并做些事情。

Because the nature of work is that people will show up every day and do something.

你要么非常明确地告诉他们优先事项是什么，要么他们会为你做出优先排序，因为他们每天都会选择自己要做什么工作。

And either you are very clear with them about what the priorities are or they're gonna prioritize for you because they're gonna choose what they work on every day.

我们经常看到创始人无法从清单上削减事项。

And we see this so much with founders where they can't cut things off the list.

他们非得设定10个目标不可。

They just have to have the 10 goals.

我就觉得，好吧。

And I'm like, cool.

其中有6个目标根本完成不了。

Six of these goals are not gonna get done.

所以要么你自己决定哪四个目标，要么别人会替你决定。

So either you pick which four it is or other people are gonna pick for you.

因此战略应当让人感到痛苦。

So strategy should hurt.

如果你的目标设定过程没有痛苦感，那说明你的优先级划分还不够严格。

If your goal setting process is not painful, then you're not prioritizing heavily enough.

好的。

Okay.

准备好了吗？

Ready?

我们正在处理第五项。

We're on number five.

这一点更多是组织层面的问题，但对水位线模型也非常重要，即一个目标只能有一个负责人。

This is more of an organizational point, but it's really important for the waterline model too, which is that one goal has one owner.

你有一个数字。

You have a number.

那个数字旁边有一个名字。

That number has a name next to it.

如果你无法完成这项工作，你就没有完成确保这些目标实现的最重要工作。

If you cannot do that work, you haven't done the most important work to actually make sure that these goals get accomplished.

这是组织工作，而且非常痛苦，因为有时候感觉这个人可以负责，或者那个人也可以。

And it's organizational work, and it's very painful, because, you know, sometimes it feels like, oh, this person could own it or this.

也许他们会共同负责。

Maybe they'll just own it together.

两个人共同负责一个目标等于没有人负责。

Two people owning a goal is no one owning a goal.

一个人负责一个目标。

One person owns the goal.

是谁？

Who is it?

不是你作为CEO。

It's not you as the CEO.

这个人是为你工作的下属。

It's someone that works for you.

所以，一个目标，一个负责人。

So, one goal, one owner.

最后一点也是最难的，就是仅有目标本身是不够的。

And then the last, which is the hardest, is that goals by themselves are not enough.

我见过很多创始人花大量时间纠结‘我做到了’。

I have spent a lot of time with founders that are like, I did it.

我设定了目标。

I set the goals.

为什么为什么为什么没有效果？

Why is why why not working?

我不明白。

I don't understand.

我就会问：设定目标后你做了什么后续工作？

And I'm like, what did you do after you set the goals?

他们就会说，我不知道。

And they're like, I don't know.

我设定了目标。

I set the goals.

你知道的，写《原子习惯》的詹姆斯·克利尔有句很棒的话：赢家和输家有着相同的目标。

Goals you know, James Clear who wrote atomic habits has this really lovely sentence, which is, winners and losers have the same goal.

目标本身是不够的。

Goals by themselves are not enough.

你必须有一个流程来跟进目标，让人们为目标负责，并从目标中学习。

You have to have a process by which you follow-up on the goals, and you hold people accountable to the goals, and you learn from the goals.

因为很多目标设定，特别是如果你还在公司初创阶段，重点在于从尝试做某事中学习。

Because so much of goal setting, particularly, you know, if you're earlier in building your company, is about learning from trying to do something.

你设定了一个目标。

You set a goal.

我们能完成吗？

Can we do it?

改变这个数字有多难？

How hard is it to move this number?

你知道吗？

You know?

这就是学习过程——你可能总是错的，但你正在了解推动这个数字需要什么。

That is the learn you might be wrong all the time, but you're learning what it takes to move the number.

所以仅仅设定目标本身是不够的。

So the numb the setting the goal by itself, not enough.

你必须在系统中建立一个流程，以便真正从目标中学习。

You have to build a process in the system to, like, actually learn from the goal.

哇。

Wow.

这份清单蕴含着巨大的力量。

This list is there's so much power in this list.

它真是

It's such

简洁而深刻。

a succinct long.

不。

No.

我不这么认为，因为每一条都蕴含着深刻的见解和力量，能为你省去大量头疼、时间和资源的浪费。

I don't think it is because each of these has so much depth and power to them that saves you so much headache and and just like wasted time and resources.

就像‘一个负责人，一个目标’的理念，我个人发现它蕴含着巨大的力量。

Just like the idea of one owner, one goal, something I've personally discovered to have such power.

是的。

Yeah.

因为——如果我理解有误请纠正——但如果你觉得别人可能在做这件事，或者感觉这不是完全属于自己的责任，那么投入的精力和心思就会少很多，我不知道该怎么形容。

Because and correct me if I'm missing something here, but just if you feel like someone else may be doing the thing or feels like it's not just fully responsibility, there's so much less energy and and just like mental I don't know.

你对实现那个目标就不会那么上心了。

You just don't care as much about hitting that goal.

如果这是责任归属的问题。

If it's the accountability.

如果这个目标，伦尼，是你的目标。

If it's like, Lenny, this goal is your goal.

如果你达成了，那就是你完成的。

And if you hit it, it's you've done it.

如果你没达成，那就是你搞砸了。

If you don't, you're you've you've done a bad job.

就像，是的。

Like, that yeah.

如此激励人心。

Such motivating.

非常激励人心。

So motivating.

如果是我和莫莉这样的情况。

If it's like me and Molly.

好的。

Okay.

好吧，我们会想办法解决的。

Well, we'll figure it out.

它会产生一种清晰的洪流，从那个人身上渗透下来。

It creates a flood of clarity that seeps down from the person too.

而且，回到水位线模型，我经常说，你会发现很多公司设定了目标，但没有人真正拥有这些目标。

And and, you know, to go back to the waterline model, I would say so often, you'll actually find companies that have set goals, but they everyone no one owns the goals.

每个人都拥有这些目标。

Everyone owns the goals.

这个目标由多人共同拥有。

Multiple people own the goal.

就像是你们并没有真正找到完整的答案。

And it's like that you didn't actually get all the way to the answer.

你知道吗？

You know?

我得说，所有权这件事确实很难。

And I will say that the ownership thing is hard.