2026年世界级市场推广的样貌 | 让娜·德威特·格罗斯（Vercel、Stripe、Google）

对吧？

Right?

他们说服了风投和天使投资人投了一大笔钱。

They convinced a VC, angel investors to fork over a bunch of money.

所以他们显然能激励人们购买。

So clearly, they're gonna inspire people to buy.

但如果你的年度经常性收入达到百万，而现有客户群体之间毫无相似之处，那说明你做的还是布道式销售，完全是创始人主导的销售模式。反之，如果你能明确说...

But if you're getting to a million in ARR and the set of customers you have look nothing like one another, you still have very much like an evangelist sale, very much founder led sale versus if you can say, hey.

我现在已经确定了ICP（理想客户画像），就是那种可以明确描述出来的客户类型。

I now have an ICP here or ideal customer profile, e g something you can write down.

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You know, we are good.

我们的产品适合员工数少于100人的初创公司，这些公司通常都在开发SaaS应用程序。

Our product fits with startups with less than a 100 employees who are typically building SaaS applications.

对吧？

Right?

大概是这样。

Something like that.

那你可能已经准备好交接权力了。

Then you're probably ready to hand over the reins.

而创始人需要记住的是真正交出控制权。

And then what founders have to remember is to actually hand over the reins.

所以，你得让接任的人能够顺利接手。

So, you know, you've got to enable the person who comes in.

你目前在高效执行的是什么？

What is it that, you know, you're doing effectively?

你的核心内容是什么？

What's your content?

内容？

Content?

你提出的探索性问题是什么？

What What are are the the discovery questions you're asking?

你们是如何处理反对意见的？

How are you handling objections?

这样你就能传承这些知识。

So you can transition that knowledge.

但也不要完全放手不管。

But also don't hand them over entirely.

对吧？

Right?

你需要保持与客户的联系，因为你仍需要进行大量研发工作，以确定产品下一步将在哪些领域产生共鸣，在扩大规模时会遇到哪些阻碍等等。

You wanna stay connected to the customer because you still have a fair amount of r and d to do to figure out where are you, you know, where is the product next gonna resonate, where are you getting, you know, stock as you scale, etcetera.

回到市场开发工程师的话题，理想的市场开发工程师应该具备怎样的特质，尤其是你的第一位？

To close the loop on the go to market engineer, what's the profile of the ideal go to market engineer, maybe your first?

我们发现非常有效的人选是那些确实具备市场开发经验的人。

What we have found works really well is somebody who, does have go to market experience.

在Vercel，我们最初的三位市场开发工程师实际上都是销售工程师。

So at Vercel, our first three go to market engineers were actually sales engineers.

Vercel雇佣的都是技术非常过硬的销售工程师。

So Vercel hires very technical, sales engineers.

他们在决定转行做销售之前，全都是前端开发人员。

All of them were front end developers before they decided they wanted to get into sales.

于是我们就说，嘿。

And so we just said, hey.

你们三位，恭喜了。

Three of you, congrats.

现在你们是我们GTM引擎团队的创始成员了。

You're now founding members of our GTM engine team.

这样做的好处在于，你们确实理解什么是好的GTM策略，以及流程应该是什么样的。

And the thing that works well there is, you know, you do understand aspects of what is good GTM, what does a process look like.

实际上这个过程非常有趣。

It's been really interesting, actually.

负责GTM引擎的那位先生，我们当时正在一起过这个潜在客户代理系统，并进行质量检查。

So the gentleman who runs GTM engine for me, we were going through, you know, this this lead agent and QA ing it.

然后，我查看了一些最终由潜在客户代理发送的回复，意识到，哦，我是不会发那种内容的。

And, you know, so I'm going and I'm looking at some of the responses that we've ultimately had had lead agent send and realized, oh, I wouldn't have sent that.

这是因为我有二十年的销售经验，而我们是以我们最优秀的人为模型来设计这个潜在客户代理的，但那位最优秀的员工只有两年的销售经验。

And that's because I have twenty years of sales experience, and we modeled the lead agent off, you know, our best person, but our best person who has two years of sales experience.

所以实际上，理解销售的艺术与科学，以及如何应用最佳实践是非常重要的。

So it actually is important to understand the art and the science of sales and how you bring best best practice to bear.

所以要么你做过销售知道一些最佳实践，要么你会深入研究销售，读一堆书，学一两招，然后尝试把这些知识融入你的代理开发中。

So either you've done it and so you know some best practice, or you're gonna geek out on sales, read a bunch of books, learn a thing or two, you know, and and try to incorporate some of those into into your agent development.

这真的很有意思。

That is really interesting.

所以是从销售端出发，而不是工程端。

So come from the sales side, not from the engineering side.

我想这对销售人员来说是个超棒的机会，可以做完全不同的事并更接近工程领域。

And I imagine this is such a cool opportunity for salespeople to do something completely different and move closer to engineering.

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，我们在Vercel这边玩得特别开心。

I I mean, we're having a lot of fun with it at, at Vercel in particular.

基本上我们就是自己的首批客户。

We basically get to be customer zero.

所以我们用代理构建的所有东西，都是在Vercel的AI云上开发的。

So everything that we're building with agents, we're building on Vercel's AI cloud.

你看，现在这些代理已经能执行多步骤流程了。

So, you know, these agents are now have multiple steps that they go through.

我们正在使用Vercel的工作流SDK和工作流服务。

So we're using Vercel's workflow SDK and workflow offering.

我们通过AI网关调用不同模型，用于深度研究或其他数据增强处理。

We, you know, use the AI gateway to call the different models that we use to do deep research or other enrichment that we do.

这对我们来说很棒，因为我们可以抢先试用工程团队开发的所有功能，在正式推向客户前成为挑剔的测试用户。

So for us, it's it's great because we basically sort of bang on everything the engineering team is is building and get to go be a discerning customer before we actually get it out the door to real customers.

活在当下真是件有趣的事。

What a fun time to be alive.

我能从你们的描述方式中感受到你们正在享受的乐趣。

And I could I could tell if that would the fun that you guys are having just from the way you describe it.

Stripe为全球众多快速发展的企业处理大规模复杂业务，包括78%的福布斯AI 50强企业和超过半数的财富100强企业。

Stripe handles the massive scale and complexity of many of the world's fastest growing enterprises, including 78% of the Forbes AI 50 and more than half of the Fortune one hundred.

Atlassian、Figma和Urban Outfitters等企业使用Stripe创建完全品牌化定制的结账页面，支持125种以上的全球支付方式。

Enterprises like Atlassian, Figma, and Urban Outfitters use Stripe to create fully branded and customized checkout pages with access to more than 125 global payment methods.

我的播客邀请过Stripe的高管次数超过任何其他公司，这绝非偶然。

There's a reason I've had more leaders from Stripe on this podcast than any other company.

他们深谙如何打造既具扩展性又受用户喜爱的优秀产品。

They know how to build great products that scale and that people love.

Stripe的业务远不止支付领域。

And Stripe is a lot more than payments.

他们还拥有行业领先的计费解决方案，以及专为提高结账转化率而优化的高效结账体验。

They've also got a category leading billing solution and a highly optimized checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion.

加入Salesforce、OpenAI和百事可乐等行业领袖的行列，使用Stripe加速业务增长，推动全球GDP发展。

Join the ranks of industry leaders like Salesforce, OpenAI, and Pepsi that are using Stripe to grow faster and to grow the world's GDP.

了解Stripe如何助力您的业务增长，请访问stripe.com。

Learn how Stripe can help your business grow at stripe.com.

稍微扩大一下范围，关于你提到的工具，一些你使用的工具。

Zooming out a little bit, in terms of you mentioned tools, some tools that you use.

我很好奇，目前市场推广技术栈中，有哪些前沿工具是你喜爱并会推荐的？

I'm curious just what are kind of the state of the art tools within the go to market stack that you love that you'd recommend?

嗯，关于这个问题我有个有趣的答案。

Well, so I'm gonna have an interesting answer to this.

我会告诉你一个，虽然严格来说它不算最前沿的工具——我这么说并没有贬低的意思。

So I'll give you one and it's not state of the art per se, although that I don't don't mean that disparagingly.

只是它已经存在一段时间了，而且很多人都在使用它。

It's just that it's been around for for a while now and and a lot of folks use it.

但我认为Gong在过去一年里确实变得更有意思了。

But I think Gong has gotten just meaningfully more interesting in the last year.

至于我问题的后半部分，我认为关于自建还是采购的考量正在发生变化。

And then second half of my question, I will get into, I think the calculus on build versus buy is changing.

好吧

So alright.

Gong

Gong.

Gong非常棒，因为你现在可以运行智能代理程序来处理它。

Gong is incredible because you can run agents against it now.

我们会把所有Gong的对话记录导入一个叫'交易机器人'的代理程序里。

So we take all of our Gong transcripts and we dump them, into an agent called the deal bot.

然后这个交易机器人就能执行一系列操作。

And that deal bot then can do a bunch of things.

我们首先要做的是复盘丢失的机会。

So the first thing we had to do was lost lost opportunity review.

当时我们刚结束第二季度。

So we had just finished q two.

我们有一份按交易金额排序的本季度最大损失清单，然后针对它进行了分析。

We had, you know, a list of our top losses for the quarter sorted by deal size, and we ran it against that.

这真的非常有趣。

And it was incredibly interesting.

根据客户经理的说法，那个季度最大的败因是价格问题。

So the biggest loss that quarter, according to the account executive, was lost on price.

但当你用智能代理分析每一条Slack消息、每一封邮件、每一次Gong通话记录时，结果显示：实际上失败原因是你从未真正接触到经济决策者。

And when you ran the agent over every Slack interaction, every email, every Gong call, it said, actually, you lost because you never really got in touch with the economic buyer.

当你与对方讨论投资回报率和总拥有成本时，他们的反应清楚地表明他们并不认可你的计算。

And when you talked to somebody about ROI and total cost of ownership, it was clear from their reaction that they didn't really buy your math.

因此真正的败因是我们无法证明产品价值——经过反思，我需要完善如何量化Vercel价值的体系，虽然这个价值其实很容易量化。

And so really the reason we lost was an inability to demonstrate value, which, you know, upon reflection, I've got work to do to build out how we quantify the value of Vercel, which actually is very easily quantifiable.

这是我喜欢销售这款产品的原因之一，但我们需要为市场团队将其标准化。

It's one of the things I love about selling this product, but we gotta codify that for the go to market team.

所以这个发现非常有意思。

So that was incredibly interesting.

现在我们用这个方法分析所有失败交易，能更准确地归类真实败因，然后将结论反馈给工程团队或市场销售管理层。

And now we run it against all of our lost opportunities and actually do a much better job of categorizing why it was we really, really lost and then either feeding that back into engineering team or back into marketing sales leadership on, hey.

我们在销售流程中的哪个环节存在不足？

Where are we falling short in the sales process?

所以这真是太棒了。

And so that was awesome.

但后来我们觉得，失败可不是什么有趣的事。

But then we're like, well, it's not very fun to lose.

那我们为什么不提前预防呢？

So why don't we pull that forward?

于是我们从失败分析机器人转向了交易推进机器人，现在这个机器人实时运行，将洞察直接推送至Slack。

And so we went from lost bot to deal bot, and now the deal bot is running in real time, and we basically feed insights into Slack.

Vercel团队重度使用Slack，我们为每个客户/潜在客户都建立了专属频道。

Vercel is incredibly heavy users of Slack, so we have a channel for every single customer, either opportunity or existing one.

现在我们会将分析洞察推送到对应Slack频道，比如'销售流程已推进至此阶段，但尚未接触经济决策者'这类提示。

And so now we're feeding insights into that Slack channel, which is, you know, hey, you're this far into the sales process and you haven't talked to an economic buyer.

你该考虑解决这个问题了。

You should think about that.

或者，你刚和经济决策者通完电话。

Or, you just got off that call with an economic buyer.

听起来进展似乎不太顺利。

It didn't sound like it went that that that well.

这里有一些建议供你参考，以及后续跟进的方式。

You know, here's some things to consider and how you might follow-up.

在我暂停之前最后一点，另一个非常有趣的应用方式是——我们正处在一个迭代速度前所未有的时代，我职业生涯二十多年来从未见过这样的节奏。

And last thing before I pause, the other thing that's really interesting and how we're we're using this too is, you know, we are in this moment, right, where, like, I I have never seen an iteration velocity like exists now in my career.

我二十多年的职业生涯全部在科技行业。

My twenty plus year career has all been in tech.

这对市场推广团队来说确实很困难。

And so for go to market teams, that's really hard.

如果每隔一天就要发布新产品，要让团队及时掌握这些变化确实很有挑战性。

If you are launching something every other day, the ability to be enabled on that is actually quite challenging.

现在我们开始让这个机器人代理发挥作用：当我们发布新内容后，会尽力培训团队，然后通过分析通话记录和互动数据，找出我们在处理异议时的不足和卡点。

And so this bot agent is now also letting us where we're starting to go with it is we'll release something, we'll do our best to enable the team, then we'll go run the agent across calls, interactions, and we'll diagnose where we did a bad job of objection handling, where we're getting stuck.

然后在这周结束时，我们可以开个短会讨论说：好的，

And then at the end of the week, we can have a huddle and say, okay.

我们的智能助手会指出哪些地方我们销售效果不佳？

What are all the places that our agent would suggest we aren't selling effectively?

然后几乎就像工程团队现在要跑冲刺一样，这些其实就是缺陷，

And then almost like an engineering team will now run sprints, which is like, those are just bugs.

它们是你们市场推广流程中的缺陷。

They're bugs in your go to market process.

所以你们不应该让这些缺陷存在。

So you should not have them.

而且到了下周，我们会往异议处理指南里添加内容来引导，

And, you know, by the next week, we're gonna add content to our objection handling to guide.

我们会往需求挖掘指南里添加内容，

We're gonna add content to a discovery guide.

我们会找出演示环节需要改进的地方，诸如此类。

We're gonna figure out something we need to change about our demo, so on and so forth.

所以这还是早期阶段。

So that's early.

这算是个小预告吧，但这就是我们目前正在市场推广部门讨论推进的方向。

That's a little bit of a preview, but but that's where we're talking about taking things right now within our our go to marketorg.

Gene，你让我大开眼界啊。

Gene, you're blowing my mind in so many ways.

听起来太有趣了，我感觉你们这样搞肯定会赢。

This just sounds so fun and just, like, you guys are gonna win is what I'm feeling when I hear all this.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

我最欣赏的是这个AI工具——你们打造的智能体能看到人类发现不了的问题。

What I love about this is this AI tool, this agent you built sees things that humans were not seeing.

你们自己都感到惊讶，因为得出的结论完全不同，这意义太重大了。

The fact that you were surprised of just like, this is a completely different conclusion is such a big deal.

这正是AI的全部价值所在。

This is the whole promise of AI.

它将完成我们甚至未曾想到或无法做到的事情。

It's gonna do things we aren't even thinking about or capable of.

确实如此。

It is.

我们在Vercel做的一个非常有趣的项目是——我们拥有AI云平台，开发者不仅用它为面向客户的应用添加AI原生功能，还用来构建提升生产力或优化成果的内部应用。

I we had a really interesting one of the things we're doing, at Vercel, so, you know, we have an AI cloud, so people use that to put AI native features into their customer facing applications, but they're also using it to build internal applications to improve productivity or outcomes.

我们正在与一家大型航空公司洽谈，他们每天都要处理海量的客户支持请求。

And we are talking to a very large airline, and that airline, obviously gets tons and tons of support queries.

所以他们自然想运用AI技术来解决——

So, of course, they would want to go apply AI to, hey.

如何用AI自动应答这些请求，从而降低我们的客服成本？

How can we have AI answer these so that our cost to support goes down?

这是最直观的应用方向。

Sort of the obvious thing.

但更有趣的是与一位高管对话时他提到：我们其实还转录了每一通客服电话。

But the more interesting conversation was actually, with, one of the c level executives who said, we also actually transcribe every single one of those support calls.

所以我真正想知道的是他们为什么打电话，以及我如何能让下周打电话的人减少？

And so what I really wanna know is why are they calling and how do I make it so that fewer people call the next week?

所以这又回到了AI的应用上。

And so again, this is now with AI.

你可以快速处理所有这些内容，实际上比让人类在CRM系统中选择某些状态要快得多。

You can rapidly go through all of that content and actually be able to much more quickly than having a a human, you know, in your CRM sort of pick some status.

为什么这周人们会给航空公司打电话，以及你能做些什么来减少下周这种情况的发生。

Why it was that folks were calling the airline this week and and what if anything you can do to make it less the case next week.

我想很多听众听到这里都会想：'我需要一个这样的交易机器人和损失机器人'。

I imagine many people hearing this are like, I need one of these deal bots and loss bots.

这些都是你们内部开发的产品。

These are all internal products that you all built.

是的。

Yes.

在让它们变得如此出色方面，你们有什么经验可以分享吗？

Is there anything that you've learned about making them this good?

能分享一下如何打造一个真正优秀的销售机器人吗？

Any tips you can share over here is how to make a really good bot for sales?

是的。

Yes.

实际上，这是我忘记回答的后半部分。

So actually, that's the second half half of my answer that I forgot to, forgot.

太完美了。

That's perfect.

这有点像关于自建还是外购的考量。

Which is sort of like build versus buy calculus.

我们的一个经验是，构建这些智能体并不难，而且成本也不高。

So I think one of our learnings is that it's not that hard to build these agents, and they aren't that expensive either.

比如我提到的线索智能体，只用了六周时间，一个人投入了三分之一的工作量。

So, you know, I mentioned the lead agent, that was a six week process with one human a third of his time.

那个交易机器人的失败版本只花了两天时间。

That deal bot, the lost bot version was like two days.

基本上，我们即兴发挥了一下。

Like, basically, we riffed on it.

他40小时后就有了。

He had it forty hours later.

现在我们继续针对我提到的其他方面进行优化。

You know, now we're continuing to refine it for for the other things I mentioned.

而且还有件有趣的事——对Vercel来说好坏参半——那个在Vercel上全栈运行的潜在客户代理，我们全年运行成本才一千美元左右。

And and what's also interesting about them is they, this, you know, for better, for worse for Vercel, but that that lead agent which runs full stack on Vercel will cost us about a thousand dollars to run for the entire year.

记得我说过我们有10个SDR岗位人员吧？

If you remember, I told you we had 10 people in the SDR function.

光从薪资角度，我每年要为这个职能支付远超一百万美元。

So I'm I'm paying well over a million dollars for that from a salary perspective.

现在我把这个数字降到了1个人。

I got that down to one.

而在这背后，我还有个成本仅一千美元的潜在客户代理在运作。

And then behind that, I have a lead agent that cost a thousand bucks.

所以这相当于总成本降低了90%以上。

So that's like a, you know, 90 plus percent reduction in total cost there.

而且你知道，现在市面上已经有很多现成的智能体软件。

So and, you know, there are a lot there's lots of software for for agents on on out there right now.

我认为我们正在认识到的是，由于这个领域太新兴，通常你特有的业务背景、内容和工作流程才是释放智能体潜力的关键。

And I think one of things we're learning is because this whole space is so nascent, often your own esoteric context, you know, your content, your workflow is really key to unlocking the power of the agent.

因此我认为自主开发内部智能体确实具有实际价值。

And so I think there's real value in experimenting with your own internal agent development.

长远来看，我们最终可能会采用更成熟的集成智能体平台，也可能发现CIO的角色会从软件采购者转变为软件构建者——届时整个组织将运行着上千个AI智能体的内部平台。

We may ultimately end up on, you know, better integrated agent platforms in the fullness of time, Or we may find that the CIO increasingly goes from a procurer of software to a builder of software, and you'll have an AI AI internal platform with a thousand agents running across your org.

目前我还不能确定，但绝对值得亲自尝试，因为你可能会发现这比想象中简单得多，而且回报见效很快。

I'm not really sure yet, but I certainly think there's value in trying it yourself because you may find that it's meaningfully easier than you think, and you get returns pretty quickly.

那么我听到的核心观点是：现有工具都无法即插即用。

So what I'm hearing here is that you're finding that there are not tools out there to plug and play.

真正的竞争优势本质上在于自主构建解决方案。

The alpha is essentially in building your own stuff.

我认为这在一定程度上是正确的。

I think that's partially true.

而且我认为，由于现在这些工具大量涌现，你会遇到一个长期存在的问题：最终需要20个不同的工具来完成20项基本任务，而不是一个能处理所有任务的集成平台。

And I think because you also have all these tools proliferating right now, you get into the perennial problem where you wind up with 20 of them to do, you know, the 20 jobs to be done basically, rather than an integrated platform that's doing all of them.

实际上，我在与客户交流时经常听到这种情况——他们部署AI时最大的问题其实是采购流程。

I'm hearing this a lot actually when I'm talking to customers right now where their biggest issue in deploying AI is actually just getting through procurement.

某种程度上是因为每个人都接到了AI任务指标。

And it's sort of because everyone's got an AI mandate.

你相当于拿到了一张空白支票。

You kinda have a blank check.

我最近听到一个术语，不是ARR（年度经常性收入），而是ERR（实验性运营收入），意思是大家都在说'先试运行一年'。

I recently heard the term of instead of ARR, it's experimental run rate revenue, which is to say, you know, everyone's out there sort of, hey.

我们会先试运行一年，然后待定是否继续保留。

We're gonna give this thing a go for a year and then TBD on whether or not, you know, we keep it.

但基本上，你不得不采购20种不同的东西，因为大多数项目都处于起步阶段。

But, you know, basically, you're having to procure 20 different things because most things are getting off the ground.

因此，你知道，他们正在解决一个相对狭窄的问题，随着时间的推移，这种情况会改变。

And so, you know, they're solving something relatively narrow and that'll change in the fullness of time.

但我确实认为有机会弄清楚：嘿，我在内部哪里可能有一个更具体的工作流程？为此，可能非常值得构建你自己的智能体。

But I do think there's an opportunity to figure out, hey, where do I likely have a more specific workflow, you know, internally For that, it might be well worth building your own agent.

然后对于那些更通用的任务，你可以直接使用现成的解决方案。

And then maybe for the things that are a little bit more generalizable, you go get something off the shelf.

有没有什么平台或工具你想推荐给大家，能让人如此快速地构建这些智能体？

Are there any platforms or tools that you wanna shout out that allow you to build these agents so quickly?

我知道它们基于Vercel运行，所以给Vercel点个赞。

I know they sit on Vercel, so shout out Vercel.

但有没有什么资源你可以推荐给人们——比如这些SDR（销售发展代表）和GTM（市场推广）工程师，他们以前是销售人员。

But just anything that you point people to to like, are these SDR these GTM engineers, they're former salespeople.

他们是在学习编程，还是通过编写这些智能体来学习？

Are they learning to code or are they by coding these agents?

这是怎么

How does that

怎么运作的？

work?

其实我们的销售工程师都有计算机科学学位。

Well, the so our sales engineers all have CS degrees.

所以他们是以销售身份工作的工程师。

So they they were engineers in a sales capacity.

他们确实在编写代码。

So they're writing code.

实际上，这些智能体是直接在Vercel上构建的。

And actually, these agents, they're building directly on Vercel.

你可以通过AI网关调用不同的模型。

So you get the AI gateway that lets you, you know, call different models.

如果要运行不受信任的代码，还有沙盒环境。

You have a sandbox if you're running untrusted code.

还有可以构建流程的工作流系统。

You've got workflows that let you build the process.

你拥有弹性计算能力，可以只在需要时高效地使用计算资源。

You've got fluid compute which lets you really efficiently use compute when you only need it.

所以我们基本上是从零开始构建的，因为现在这已经不算太难了。

So so we're just sort of building it from the ground up, here because, again, it's not that hard now.

为此你确实需要编写代码。

You do need to write code for that.

当然市面上有很多可视化编码工具，它们提供的工作流构建器介于完全所见即所得（类似拖拽操作）和更偏向代码编写之间。

Certainly, there are a lot of vibe coding tools out there that also give you more kind of workflow will builders that are somewhere between fully WYSIWYG, almost like drag and drop, and a little bit more more code forward.

所以市面上有很多这类工具可供选择。

So you've got a bunch out there along those lines.

但我认为Vercel的GTM引擎团队能如此轻松地构建这些智能体，其中一个原因就是Vercel平台让使用我们的框架对接基础设施变得非常简单，能非常快速地将智能体投入生产环境。

But, you know, I I do think we've sort of found, like, one of one of the reasons actually the GTM engine team at Vercel can build these agents so easily is because the Vercel platform is making it that easy to use our, you know, framework to find infrastructure and get that agent onto into production really very rapidly.

你们做这些事情真是占了个绝妙的便宜啊。

What a neat unfair advantage y'all have to do this stuff.

这确实很有趣——我觉得这家公司比任何我见过的都更擅长'自产自用'，我们常说'Vercel用Vercel来构建Vercel'。

It is it is fun to like I I mean, I I do think this company is better than any I've seen at eating its own dog dog food, and just everyone is constantly we say Vercel builds Vercel with Vercel.

所以你总是在寻找各种方法，嘿。

So you're just always looking for ways to, hey.

我们如何使用我们的产品来实现所需的功能？

How can we use our product to go do what we need to do?

这样我们就能了解客户的需求，或是发现产品中需要改进的地方。

And as a result, either understand then what a customer would want or what's missing from our product that we could go make better.

顺着这个话题，从你描述的方式中我经常听到一个观点，那就是你把市场推广本身视为一个产品。

Along these lines, something that's already come across a lot in the way that you describe this stuff is I've heard a lot about how you think about go to market as a product.

正如我所说，很多听众都是产品构建者。

A lot of people listening to this, as I've said, are product builders.

所以我认为这是一种非常好的市场推广思维方式。

So I think this is a really nice way of thinking about go to market.

我猜你已经讨论过这方面的内容了，但能否简单说说如何将市场推广视为一个产品？

I'm guessing you've already talked about elements of this, but just what's a way to think about go to market as a product?

是的。

Yeah.

我一直以来都有这个领悟，大概是在我职业生涯十多年前的时候。

I've always so I had this realization, probably a little over a decade ago in my career.

我大学毕业后的第一份工作是在2004年参与Gmail的开发。

So my first job out of college was working on Gmail in 2004.

Gmail是在4月1日上线的。

So Gmail launched on April 1.

我是在6月1日加入的。

I joined on June 1.

而且，我相信你也记得，Gmail是一项令人难以置信的创新，当时几乎没有这样的大型JavaScript应用，它还提供了1GB的存储空间。

And, as I'm sure you'll remember as well, Gmail is this incredible innovation, you know, massive JavaScript application that didn't really exist at the time, and it had this gig of storage.

整整一年后雅虎邮箱才跟上，Hotmail和其他邮箱花的时间更长。

It was a full year before Yahoo Mail caught up and even longer before Hotmail and others did.

对吧？

Right?

这就是Gmail与当时次优产品之间的技术差异水平。

So that that was the level of, like, technical differentiation between, you know, Gmail and the next best.

十年后，云计算让人们能够做到以前根本无法实现的事情。

And a decade later, I you know, you had cloud computing enabling folks to do stuff that you never would have been able to do previously.

所以我感觉软件开始有点商品化的趋势了。

And so I kind of felt like, like software is starting to commoditize a little bit.

那么当技术差异逐渐缩小的时候，还有什么能让你脱颖而出呢？

And so, you know, when when that happens, when technical differentiation kind of narrows, what are other things that will differentiate you?

我开始跳出技术层面思考——我们购买很多东西其实是基于情感因素。

And, you know, was sort of thinking outside of tech, like, we buy a lot of things because of how we feel about them.

于是我逐渐形成这个观点：当产品差异微乎其微时，销售体验将成为区分公司的关键因素并影响购买决策。

And so I started to develop this thesis that actually the experience that you have of being sold to will increasingly actually differentiate a company and drive buying decisions if products are are only different at the margin.

如果你认同这点，就会想要打造具有独特体验的客户购买旅程。

And so if if you believe that, then you really wanna create a customer buying journey that feels like very unique experiences.

我们在Stripe实践了很多这类理念，现在正试图在这里复制。

And so we did a lot of this at Stripe, now we're looking to replicate this here.

举个Stripe的成功案例：多数公司的销售流程在确认客户资质后的第一通电话都是需求挖掘——其实就是通过大量提问来发掘痛点，寻找决策权所在等等。

But an example of one of the things I think we did really nicely at Stripe was, you know, a lot of companies sales sort of the first call after you're qualified, you know, we've decided you're worth engaging the sales process is discovery, which is basically let me ask you a lot of questions to try to under uncover pain, figure out where buying power lies, etcetera.

这对客户来说有时有点无聊。

And so that is kind of boring sometimes for a customer.

基本上你经常在电话里被盘问。

You're basically being quizzed often on the phone.

所以我们在Stripe开始做的第一件事就是白板会议。

And so what we started to do at Stripe was that first session was a whiteboarding session.

我们会真正聚在一起，让你画出支付架构图以及其他底层系统，这些系统支撑着你收款和实现客户成果的能力。

And we would actually get together and have you, you know, draw your architecture for payments and all the other things that were under the hood to enable you to take money and drive customer outcomes.

通过这种方式，我们能深入了解你的技术栈、我们需要竞争和替代的对象，以及价值所在。

And through that, we would learn a ton about, you know, what was in your stack, what we were gonna have to compete with, displace, where value lied.

但客户自己也学到了很多，因为在很多情况下，他们从未画过自己的架构图。

But the customer also learned a lot themselves because in many cases, they'd never drawn their architecture diagram.

所以他们离开会议时不仅获得了一份资产，还有一种感觉：哇，这个人真的很合作，他真心实意地帮助我建立思考这个问题的思维模型。当然我们还做了其他事情。

And so they left that meeting with an asset and a sense of like, wow, this is a really collaborative person who's like deeply interested in helping me like, you know, develop a mental model for how to think about this, you know, and then we had other things that we we would do.

这就是我对构建市场策略的思考方式——就像打造产品一样，你需要设计从第一次知道公司存在，到成为五年高留存的全流程客户这一系列体验。

So that's sort of how I think about building go to market like a product is basically you need to go through from the first time you become aware of that the company exists to, again, that sort of five year heavily retained wall to wall customer, a set of experiences.

这些体验可能显得事务性、平淡无趣，也可能充满人情味、个性化和独特性。

And those experiences can feel transactional, flat, boring, or they can feel very human, personalized, and unique.

因此，我们尝试梳理这些环节，思考如何让产品发挥作用，使其真正富有人情味，并最终希望能培养出终身客户。

And so, you know, we try to go map those out and figure out how do you, you know, bring the product to bear, make it really human, and and hopefully that, creates a customer for life in the end.

我非常喜欢那个白板会议的案例。

I love that whiteboarding example.

还有没有其他成功实践这种方式的案例？

Are there any other examples of what you've done to make it actually work really well in this way?

是的。

Yeah.

我们在Stripe时期真正发展的另一个原则，我也将其带到了Vercel，就是在每个接触点都提供价值，无论客户是否购买。

Another principle we really developed this at Stripe two and I've I've brought it to to Vercel was just the idea of adding value at any touch point regardless of whether or not that customer bought.

因为即使客户没有购买，你往往会发现，如果你在这个购买周期错过了他们，三四年后当他们进入另一个购买周期时，他们确实会回来。

Because even if customers don't buy, you often find that if you miss them on that buying cycle, three or four years later when they're in another buying cycle, they do come back.

你知道，我在Stripe工作了九年。

You know, I was at Stripe for nine years.

因此我见证了许多客户流失后，时隔五年又回来购买的情况。

And so I saw the number of customers that we lost and then half a decade later, here they are and they bought.

所以这算是另一个例证。

So that that was sort of another one.

比如我们在Vercel实践的例子是：互联网上有大量优质数据能帮助人们理解网站性能——网站速度如何直接影响SEO，而SEO又影响AEO。

So, you know, examples of this that we're doing at Vercel is we you you can there's great data on the Internet that helps people understand the performance of their website and how fast your website is actually impacts SEO and SEO impacts AEO.

现在所有人都在关注AEO。

And everybody's thinking about AEO right now.

所以我们尝试在接触客户时，立即提供关于他们表现的绝对基准数据，以及与同行对比的相对表现。

And so, you know, one of the things we try to do when we reach out is actually give folks insight immediately into how they're performing on an absolute basis, how they're performing relative to peers.

理想情况下这会激发你的兴趣，让你想从我们这里了解更多。

So ideally, you know, that piques your interest and you wanna learn more from us.

但即便没有，你也能获得可能从未意识到的洞察，促使你思考当前配置是否是最优方案。

But even if it doesn't, you still have insights that you may or may not have been aware of, that maybe make you contemplate whether or not you've got the optimal setup.

太棒了。

Awesome.

所以我在这里听到的是，当你说要像产品一样思考时，本质上就是产品人员会考虑产品在用户旅程每个阶段的体验。

So what I'm hearing here is when you say think of it like a product, that's basically a product person thinks about the experience of their product at every step of the journey.

流程是这样的。

Here's the flow.

第一步、第二步、第三步、第四步、第五步。

Step one, two, three, four, five.

我们如何让每个步骤都变得出色？

How do we make every step awesome?

让他们沿着这个旅程继续前进。

Keep them going along that journey.

因此你思考的角度就是从潜在客户的视角出发，如何让旅程的每个环节都令人惊艳？

And so what you think about is just from the prospect's perspective, how do we make every step of that journey awesome?

引导他们继续完成这个旅程。

Continue them down that journey.

是的。

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

你如何让它成为一种体验而非单纯的交易？

How do you make it be an experience rather than a transaction?

还是说，感觉就像销售人员在向你推销东西？

Or is it just, like, feel like sales coming at you trying to sell you stuff?

是的

Yeah.

好的

Okay.

沿着这条保持战术性的轨道，我想更进一步

Staying along this track of being staying tactical, I wanna go even further there.

那么在当前，对于那些想要更成功地吸引人们关注并购买他们产品的人来说，有哪些行之有效的市场进入策略？

So what are just some go to market tactics that you find really effective these days for people trying to just to be more successful in getting people to pay attention to their stuff, to buy their stuff?

我想说一点，这与我刚才提到的内容相呼应，就是关于你的产品或客户可能处于次优状态的独特见解

I mean, one, I would sort of say, dovetails with where I just ended, but is what are the unique insights that you can bring to bear about your product or, you know, how that that customer may be in a suboptimal state.

因此我认为投资数据来挖掘这些洞察确实很重要。

So I do think investing in in data to tease that out is is one thing.

我认为另一点虽然直白但往往做得不够的是，很多优秀公司会投资文档建设，这很好。

I think the other thing, this is is straightforward, but often not done enough is like a lot of good companies invest in docs, you know, good thing to do.

但他们往往止步于此。

And but they they stop there.

特别是当你向稍大型企业销售时，像AWS所称的'架构完善指南'或蓝图这类工作。

And particularly if you're selling into a slightly larger company doing things like, you know, AWS calls it well architected guides or blueprints.

许多客户，尤其是大型客户，非常想知道如何根据他们的具体配置最佳实践来实施你的产品。

A lot of customers, particularly larger ones, really want to know the best practice for how exactly to implement your product in with their particular setup.

这方面一个很好的例子来自Stripe——他们在市场支付领域做得非常出色。

A great example of this, this is from Stripe was, you know, Stripe was excellent at marketplaces.

比如Lyft、Instacart、DoorDash这些公司都使用Stripe。

Most, you know, Lyft, Instacart, DoorDash, they were all on Stripe.

所以Stripe绝对清楚市场支付平台的最佳搭建方式，因为他们见过所有案例。

And so Stripe definitely knew the best way to set up payments for a marketplace because we'd seen them all.

所以当你去推销一个市场平台时，你会说，哦，是的。

And so when you then would go and sell a marketplace and, you know, say, oh, yeah.

我们有文档。

We've got docs.

去看看吧。

Go check them out.

他们不喜欢那样。

They didn't like that.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们会说，嘿。

Because they're like, hey.

每个市场平台都用Stripe。

Every marketplace runs on Stripe.

我不想看通用文档。

I don't wanna look at generic docs.

我希望你能告诉我搭建市场支付系统的最佳方式。

I want you to tell me what's the best way to set up payments for a marketplace.

因此我认为这是另一个关键点，尤其是当你不再将独立开发者或初创创始人作为目标受众时。

And so I think that's another key thing to be doing, particularly as you move past that sort of solo developer, startup founder as potentially a target audience.

虽然我不确定这算不算策略，但我确实认为这对正处于创始人主导销售阶段的创业者是个很好的提醒——充分做好需求调研的价值。

And then I don't know this is a tactic per se, but I do think just a good reminder for founders in particular who are still in that maybe founder led sales moment is just the value of really good discovery.

我经常发现创始人总是过于兴奋地谈论产品，你刚提一个问题，他们就会立即进入'我能帮你解决'的推销模式。

I often find founders are so in you know, so excited about, talking about their product or, you know, you ask one question and now they've got a hook of like, oh, I can fix that for you.

但顶尖销售人员在谈话中通常发言时间不到一半，他们会不断提问、深挖需求，经常引导客户自己得出结论。

But, excellent salespeople typically, will talk well under half the time in a conversation because they're out asking questions, probing, often helping a customer, arrive at conclusions on their own.

所以要学会运用'五个为什么'法则深入挖掘，而不是立即进入解决问题模式。

And so learning how to, you know, do five whys, go deep rather than immediately going into problem solving mode.

明白吗？

You know?

如果他们提问，你就回答。

If they ask a question, you respond.

通常，如果他们提出一个问题，你应该先对这个问题提出反问，然后再回答。

Often, if they ask a question, you should ask a question about the question and then respond.

对吧？

Right?

所以学会擅长这一点，我认为能让人脱颖而出。

So learning to be great at that, I I think differentiates people.

最后一个建议，我想大家都能从中学习的是：多倾听，少说话。

So last tip, I think there's something a lot of I bet everyone could learn is just listen more and talk less.

是的。

Yep.

关于第一条建议，即分享独特见解和你的不足之处，你能举个具体例子说明你是怎么做的吗？

On that first piece of advice, this kind of sharing unique insights and how you're suboptimal, Is there an example you could share of how you did that?

也许可以分享一个故事，关于你是如何说服别人购买Stripe或Vercel的，比如：嘿。

Maybe a story of just how you convince someone you're selling Stripe or Vercel of like, hey.

这里有你们忽略的东西。

Here's something you you're missing.

这能帮助你变得更好。

Here's how this could help you become much better.

以Vercel为例，虽然这只是一个例子，但我会说得更具体些。

So with Vercel, the sort of a is giving an example, but I'll make it more specific.

比如在性能方面，你可以查看核心网页指标。

So, you know, the performance point, you can go and look at Core Web Vitals.

这样我们就能实际看到他们网站中哪些部分加载速度快或运行正常等等。

And so we can actually see the different things, within their site that are fast or, you know, load correctly, etcetera.

所以任何人都可以去查证这些数据。

So that we then so anyone can go look that up.

但我们可以做的是提供与同行对比的基准测试数据。

But what we can do is actually then help with benchmarking relative to peers.

这一直是我们重点投入的领域之一。

So that's been a big one that we've gone out and done.

另一个我们花了不少精力的方向是帮助客户理解MCP服务器及其适用场景。

The other one that we've spent some good time on is just around helping customers understand MCP servers and when it would make sense to use one.

我认为这些话题虽然很热门，但人们往往不知道如何将其与自己的产品结合起来思考。

So I think, you know, those are all the rage, but often people don't know how to contemplate them within their own product.

这是我们深入研究的另一个领域。

So that was another one that that we've gone pretty deep on.

与第一个话题相关的是AEO（答案引擎优化），实际上与Vercel有些间接关联。

And then related to the first one is AEO, answer engine optimization, is actually, you know, somewhat tangential to Vercel.

对吧？

Right?

我们专注于提升性能。

So we drive performance.

性能优化会促进SEO。

Performance drives SEO.

SEO又是AEO的输入因素。

SEO is an input into AEO.

但我们投入了大量时间分享AEO的见解，因为我们自身对此有深入研究，并认为比多数人理解得更透彻。

But we have spent a ton of time, sharing insights on AEO because we ourselves focus deeply on it and think we understand it better than many.

所以再次强调，作为建立信任关系的一部分，人们可能会从那些AMA或内容开始，然后进入下一步。

And so again, as part of just building a trusted relationship, you know, folks may go from those AMAs or that content, into, okay.

很好。

Great.

你教会了我很多，因此我希望Vercel能帮助我提升性能。

You learn you taught me a lot, and therefore, I want Vercel to help me with performance.

但在很多情况下，他们现在会觉得，这是一家看起来很有洞察力的公司。

But in many cases, they actually now are just like, this is a company that seems insightful.

看来这是个值得我学习的对象，现在我会对他们多加关注。

Seems like one I can learn from, and now I'm gonna pay a little bit more attention to them.

随着时间的推移，或许他们会看到某些触发点，决定现在是时候去深入了解Vercel的这个方面了。

And over the fullness of time, maybe, you know, they see something that triggers them to decide now is the time I wanna go investigate that aspect of Vercel.

太棒了。

Awesome.

所以我从多方面听到的是，这很有共鸣，我最近在播客上采访了Jenna Abel，内容全是关于销售技巧和如何销售的。

So what I'm hearing here in in many ways, and this resonates, I Jenna Abel on the podcast recently, and it was all about sales skills and how to sell.

不错。

Nice.

她的一个建议是，不要总强调'我们在解决什么痛点问题'，而应该聚焦于'你将如何比竞争对手更出色'。

And one of her tips is you don't wanna be focusing on here's the pain and problem we're solving, and instead focus on here's how you will be better than your competitors.

如果你使用Vercel，就能获得巨大的差距优势和领先优势。

Here's a big gap and alpha that you can achieve if you use say Vercel.

就像说'你正在错失速度优势，在AEO等方面会吃大亏'。

So here's like you you're missing out on speed and you're gonna get screwed in AEO and all these things.

比如'你可以这样设计整个支付系统架构，使其达到顶级水平'。

Here's like how you can architect your entire payments art system to be top tier.

这个观点有共鸣吗？

Does that resonate?

是的。

Yeah.

这个，有...有人告诉过我这个数据。

It, there's I I was told this stat.

这是整数数据，所以我无法想象它完全准确。

It's round numbers, so I I can't imagine it's entirely accurate.

但你知道，基本上80%的客户购买是为了避免痛苦或降低风险，而不是另外五分之一为了增加收益——这对初创企业创始人来说是需要理解的重点。

But, you know, basically that, customers 80% of customers buy to avoid pain or reduce risk as opposed to the other one out of five to increase upside, which is a good thing again for startup founders to understand.

我们都喜欢谈论可能性艺术，那些未来将要实现的东西。

So, you know, we all love talk about the art of the possible, you know, everything we're gonna enable in the future.

这非常令人兴奋。

It's very exciting.

每个人都是梦想家。

Everyone's visionaries.

对吧？

Right?

但这通常只会引起另一位创始人的共鸣。

But, that's often really a sale that's gonna resonate with another founder.

而对其他人来说，特别是企业客户，你是在规避下季度无法达成营收目标的风险。

And for everybody else, you know, particularly enterprises, you're avoiding the risk of not making your revenue target next quarter.

面临被竞争对手超越的风险，品牌受损的风险等等。

The risk of having a comp you know, being outdone by the competition, the risk of having brand damage, etcetera.

因此对许多初创企业来说，这种转型实际上非常困难，因为它感觉与品牌调性不符——但通过巧妙提问明确自身短板后，这种制造适度焦虑（要么我可能定位不佳，要么你能帮我降低风险）的方式确实能驱动更多购买行为。

And so it's really hard actually for, many startups to make that pivot because it it feels off brand, but it does actually drive more buying behavior is setting up a little bit of that concern that either I might not be well positioned or again, through good question asking, I know exactly where I'm not well positioned, and you can help me derisk that.

你分享的这个数据太重要了。

That is such an important stat you shared.

这其实在本播客中已经提到过：人们购买很大程度上是为了降低风险，避免损害自己的职业生涯和公司利益。

This has come up actually before in this podcast that buying people are buying in large part to reduce risks, to basically not hurt themselves in their career, not hurt the company.

比起'我有问题需要解决，谢谢你的方案'，这种避险心理对购买决策的影响更大。

Like, that's a bigger factor in the buying decision than I have this problem I need to solve and, okay, thank you for solving.

就像April Dunford在播客里谈到的——这简直就是一场职业生涯的豪赌。

And the way April Dunford came on the podcast and talked about this of just like like, it's such a massive career bet.

比如我们要引入产品X，指望它成为下一个Stripe。

We are gonna bring in product x and it's gonna become like Stripe, let's say.

咱们就别提Vercel了。

Let's not talk about Vercel.

但假设我们要采用Stripe支付。

But let's say Stripe we're gonna adopt Stripe.

这，可以说，是个重大决定。

That's, like, a huge decision.

如果进展不顺，你的职业生涯会受影响。

If it doesn't go well, your career is hurt.

你的经理会对你发火。

Your manager's gonna be mad at you.

这会拖累公司发展。

It's gonna set your company back.

没错。

Yep.

所以正如你所说，很多购买决策的核心就是——我不想搞砸这件事。

So a lot of the buying decision, as you've said, is I just don't wanna screw this up.

对。

Right.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

说到策略方面，我知道你非常推崇并帮助人们思考的是市场细分。

Along the line of tactics, something that I know you're big fan of and, help people think about is segmentation.

是的。

Yes.

这是许多创业者都在努力解决的问题。

This is something a lot of founders struggle with.

他们知道，我需要制定我的市场细分策略，明确我们要瞄准的目标。

They know, okay, I need to figure out my segmentation strategy and here we're going after.

你能给我们简单介绍一下市场细分吗？包括为什么它很重要，以及人们应该如何着手进行？

Can you just kinda give us a primer on segmentation, what people should know about why this is important, and then how they might approach this?

好的。

Yeah.

市场细分本质上就是如何划分全球存在的各类公司，以便理解它们的不同采购行为。

So segmentation is basically how do you carve up the world of companies that exist on the planet to reason about them where they buy differently.

我会用Stripe和Vercel的案例来具体说明这一点。

So I'll give I'll give examples from from Stripe and Vercel to bring this home.

最常见的企业细分方式就是小型、中型、大型。

So a very very typical company segmentation is small, medium, large.

这是一种合理的分类方法。

That's a rational way to do things.

小型企业通常只有一个决策者。

Small, you often have a single decision maker.

中型企业会有一个小团队，而大型企业则流程复杂，需要委员会决策等等。

Medium, you know, a small team and large, it's complex, it's a committee, etcetera.

从中小企业到中端市场再到大型企业，采购流程确实会发生变化。

So the buying process does change across SMB mid market enterprise.

但如果仅停留在这种划分层面，你很可能会遗漏关键信息。

But if you stop there, you are likely missing.

好的。

Okay.

但你的产品中有哪些因素也会改变销售方式？

But what are the things within your offering that also change the way something gets sold?

在Stripe，我们进一步划分业务有两种方式。

So at Stripe, there there were two ways we further cut the business.

第一种方式是把市场细分想象成一张图表。

Way one was so think of segmentation as as a graph.

X轴代表企业规模。

So x axis was size.

即小型、中型、大型。

So small, medium, large.

Y轴代表增长潜力。

Y axis was growth potential.

这对Stripe很重要，因为它是基于消费的业务模式。

And that was important for Stripe because it was a consumption based business.

因此，如果你的年增长率能达到200%，那么你对Stripe的价值就远高于年增长率仅为8%的情况。

So if you were gonna grow at 200 year on year, you were more valuable to Stripe than if you were gonna grow at 8% year on year.

所以我们更愿意投入更多时间和资金去追逐那些年增长200%的企业，而非8%的企业。

And so we wanted to spend more time, spend more money going after the 200% growers than the 8%.

这就是影响你选择目标客户战略的一个因素。

So that was one that informed your strategy on who you targeted.

对Stripe而言，另一个划分维度是商业模式。

And then for Stripe, the other thing that we cut it was business model.

你是B2B模式？

So are you a b to b?

还是B2C模式？

Are you b to c?

或是B2B2B（例如平台）模式，还是B2B2C（例如市场）模式？

Are you b to b to b, e g a platform or b to b to c, e g a marketplace?

为什么这一点很重要？

And why is that relevant?

如果你是B2B企业，你会需要商业支付服务。

Well, if you're b to b, you were gonna need business payments.

对吧？

Right?

信用卡对PLG（产品导向增长）功能和PLG销售很有用，但你还需要ACH电汇等其他支付方式。

Credit card was useful for a PLG function, PLG sale, but you were gonna need ACH wires, etcetera.

而且你可能会有定期业务，所以你会需要Stripe的账单系统。

And you probably had a recurring business, so you were gonna want Stripe Billing.

明白吗？

You know?

如果你是B2C（面向消费者），那么你会需要消费者支付解决方案。

If you were b to c, that's consumer, so you're gonna want consumer payments.

Apple Pay就非常重要。

Apple Pay is super important.

如果你是平台或市场类企业，你就会购买我们的Connect产品。

If you were in the, like, the platform or the marketplace, you were gonna buy our connect product.

因此这基本上帮助我们打造了更具针对性和可复制性的销售策略。

So it helped us basically then craft, a more targeted and replicable sales.

我们销售的是类似类型的交易。

We sell sort of similar deal.

所以分为小型、中型、大型购买复杂度。

So small, medium, large buying complexity.

我们同样基于增长潜力进行划分，因为我们同样是基于消费的业务模式。

We also do the same thing on growth potential because we are similarly a consumption based business.

但对我们来说，在X轴上还有几个其他维度，我们加入了推广指标——这是可观测的互联网流量数据之一。

But for us, a couple other things on the x axis, we layer in promote, which is one of the things that is observable is traffic, site traffic on the Internet.

谷歌会发布一个Crux评分，本质上他们掌握了大量Chrome浏览器的数据。

So Google publishes a crux score, which is basically they have a bunch of data in Chrome.

所以他们知道Lenny的网站访问量达到了数百万量级。

And so they know that Lenny's site gets, you know, a million x the amount Millions.

而Gene的网站流量则远不及此。

That Gene's site does.

因此，基本上，你是一家小公司但拥有超高流量，这会让情况更复杂。

And so, basically, you're a small company but you have super high traffic, that's gonna be more complex.

Vercel会赚更多钱，所以我们想推广你。

Vercel is gonna make more money and so we wanna promote you.

这方面一个很好的例子就是OpenAI。

So great example of this would be OpenAI.

OpenAI，我最近忘了它有多少员工。

OpenAI, I forget these days how many, employees it has.

假设是3000人吧。

Let's say it's 3,000.

现在可能已经不止这个数了。

It's probably more than that at this point.

但这在大多数公司里最多只能算中端市场。

But so that's gonna put it in, the mid market at most companies.

但他们是互联网上前25大流量网站之一。

But they are a top 25 traffic site on the Internet.

因此对我们来说，这将促使我们将其归入企业级客户，因为我们需要采用更深入、更细致的销售流程。

So for us, that's gonna push them in our enterprise because we need to go, you know, lean in with a much, you know, more in-depth sales process.

我们叠加的另一维度是工作负载类型。

And then the other thing we layer on is a workload type.

如果你是一家电商公司，那将是一种完全不同的销售模式。

So if you are an ecommerce company, that's gonna be a very different sale.

我们实际上需要使用不同的沟通话术。

We're gonna have to you actually use different language.

你们会讨论商品列表页、产品详情页，以及后端的订单管理系统。

You talk about product, listing pages and product description pages, and you've got an order management system as the back end.

这与加密货币公司截然不同——他们可能完全依托AWS运行整套业务。

Super different from a crypto company where, you know, you might be running soup to nuts, on AWS.

所以这再次帮助我们为你们制定完全差异化的采购方案。

And so, again, that helps us start to then have a really different, buying content for you.

好的。

Okay.

这太棒了。

This is awesome.

所以本质上，你们所做的是将这个市场划分——回到你们在Stripe的原始故事——通过帮助筛选哪些公司最有可能购买你们的产品，而你们得出的就是这些属性

So essentially, what you do is you break up this universe going back to your original story at Stripe into to help you sort essentially which companies are most likely to buy your product, and what you're coming up with is these attributes that are

是的。

Yep.

与它们成为优质潜在客户的可能性高度相关。

Correlated with they are likely to be great potential customers.

没错。

Yep.

你们是否推荐使用这个XY轴作为方法，而不是其他方法？

Do you recommend using this x y axis as the approach versus something else?

就像一个有五列的电子表格。

There's like a spreadsheet with, like, five columns.

比如，我不知道。

Like, I I don't know.

你如何开始？

How do you start?

关于X轴和Y轴可能有些值得讨论的地方。

There's probably something to be said for the x and y.

我认为规模确实会影响大多数购买决策。

Like, I do think size is gonna play into most buying decisions.

而且现在，你知道，消费行为相当普遍。

And then these days, there's is a fair amount of, you know, consumption happening.

所以我认为这其中有些方面是相对通用的。

So there'll be aspects of this that I think are somewhat universal.

但基本上，当我来到Purcell时，因为这是一个新的产品市场，对我来说是个新市场。

But I think, basically, like, when I came to Purcell, because new product market product offering for me, it's a new market.

我有很多需要学习，但这是我前30天最先做的事情之一。

I had a lot to learn, but this is one of the first things I did in the first thirty days.

于是，我基本上就和这里负责数据科学的Abhi坐下来讨论，说好吧。

And so, basically, I sat down, with the gentleman, Abhi, who leads data science here and, you know, said, okay.

是什么驱动了收入？

What what drives revenue?

那么有哪些因素可以在事前观察客户，从而判断这个人可能会支付我们10万美元还是100万美元？

So what are what are the things that you can look at ex ante about a customer to know this person's likely to pay us a $100,000 versus a million?

这些很可能会成为细分框架的一部分。

Those that's probably gonna be part of a segmentation framework.

同样地，好吧。

And then similarly, okay.

我们应该寻找哪些属性来聚类那些我们似乎反复获胜的领域？

Where can we how how what attributes would we look for to cluster where we seem to be winning repeatedly?

这就是我们最终得出的结论：Crux排名将非常重要，因为你在Racelle支付的金额与你的流量相关。

And that was how we ultimately got at, okay, crux rank is gonna be super important because what you pay, Racelle, is correlated with your traffic.

此外，工作负载类型也非常重要。

And then workload type was super important as well.

所以，当我们在Vercel进行这项工作时，发现非常有趣的现象——我们在电商领域有很高的渗透率。

So, you know, and for for Vercel, when we did that, it was really interesting because, you know, we saw, wow, like, we have a a lot of penetration in ecom.

其实这并不令人意外，考虑到我们驱动的是高性能网站，而电商领域拥有极速性能网站确实至关重要。

Not not that surprising actually, given that we, you know, drive highly performant sites and ecom having a super fast performance site really matters.

但当时，如果你以企业SaaS公司为例来看，我们的渗透率并不高，尽管你可能会认为前端云服务非常面向开发者，软件公司当然会采用我们。

But, you know, at the time, if you looked at as an example in enterprise SaaS companies, we didn't have a lot of penetration, even though you would have thought, okay, front end cloud, very developer oriented, of course, software companies would be on us.

但在企业领域，大多数公司早在Vercel存在之前就已经构建了他们的SaaS产品。

But in enterprise, most of those companies built that SaaS offering before Vercel existed.

因此，将200行或200万行代码迁移到Vercel平台，这确实是个大工程。

And so, you know, migrating 200 lie or 2,000,000 lines of code, you know, to Vercel, that that's a big lift.

对吧？

Right?

这帮助我们真正理解了我们在哪些领域占据优势，在哪些领域尚未突破。

So it helped us really understand where are we winning, where are we not.

现在举个例子，在SaaS企业和企业领域，我们实际上看到了对AI云的浓厚兴趣，因为他们是早期采用者，热衷于为现有SaaS应用添加AI原生功能。

You know, and now, as an example, like, in within SaaS companies and enterprise, we're actually seeing a lot of interest in AI cloud because those are some of the earlier adopters of, hey, let's add AI native functionality to our existing SaaS app.

所以这再次帮助我们明确了应该瞄准哪些领域的哪些方向。

And so again, it helps us figure out what to target where.

好的。

Okay.

所以本质上，你们是在对有效因素进行回归分析，然后找出与成功最相关的那些属性。

So essentially, you're doing kind of this regression analysis on what's working and then here's the attributes that are most correlated with success.

当创始人问我如何确定客户获取成本时，我总是推荐这个方法。

Something I always recommend when founders ask me for how do I figure out my CP?

如何确定应该聚焦在哪些方面？

How do I figure out where to focus?

我的经验法则是只需考虑三个能缩小范围的属性。

I my heuristic is just think of three attributes that narrow them down.

就像A轮融资的公司，比如Angela那样的市场平台。

So it's like series a company with that's Angela, that's a marketplace.

类似这样的例子。

Something like that.

感觉这是个不错的经验法则作为起点。

That feel like a good, like, just rule of thumb just to start.

我认为超过三个就有点过于详细了。

I think, like, beyond three, I like, you know, it's that's getting pretty detailed.

而且合理来说，你不可能把五个卖家分开，所以你不会把一个卖家分成五部分。

And, reasonably speaking, you're not gonna cut like, have five sellers, so you're what you're gonna put one seller in five different segments.

所以我确实认为三个是一个可以合理讨论的数字。

So I I do think three is something you can reason about.

关于这个话题我还想说一点我认为非常重要的，就是很多人认为细分市场是一种进入市场的方式。

The other thing I'll say on this topic that I think is really important is a lot of times folks think segmentation is a go to market thing.

我确实认为这是公司层面的问题。

I really think it's a company thing.

所以当你加入Vercel时，我实际上会在每位新员工入职第一周就进行交付。

So when you join Vercel, I actually deliver in every new hire's first week.

我们公司的核心价值观之一是KYC（了解你的客户），我会负责KYC部分的内容，并详细讲解我们的客户细分框架，以及客户群体如何对应这些细分市场——因为当这些新上任的产品经理离开会议室后，他们在构建产品时必须时刻牢记这一点。

One of our company values is KYC, know your customer, and I deliver the KYC sec section and, you know, talk through our segmentation framework, how our customer base maps into those segments because it's really important as, you know, those new product managers leave the room that when they're building something, they think to themselves, okay.

我正在开发一个新的后端产品。

I'm building a new back end product.

这个产品面向的是谁？

Who is this targeted at?

它是面向企业还是初创公司？

Is it targeted at an enterprise or or a start up?

基本上，我是否对自己想要取胜的方向和原因有明确观点？

You know, basically, do I have a point of view on where I'm trying to win and why?

如果你从一开始就这么做，那么与市场推广部门用同样的语言沟通就会容易得多，然后就能搞清楚：我们如何根据现有的其他策略将这个产品推向市场？

And if you're doing that out of the gates, then it's much easier to then go speak the same language with the go to market org and figure out, okay, how are we gonna take that to market in line with the other motions that we we have in play?

好的。

Okay.

这正好引出了我想讨论的另外几件事。

This is a great segue to there's a couple other things I wanna talk about.

其中一件是我从许多与你共事过的人那里听到的——你非常擅长建立一个与产品和工程部门配合得天衣无缝的市场推广团队。

One is something I've heard from so many people you've worked with is that you're amazing at building a go to market org that works really well with product and engineering.

我来读一段你前同事凯特·詹森的评语。

So I'll read this quote from your former colleague, Kate Jensen.

她说你的超能力是打造一个让工程师感觉不像销售团队的销售组织。

She said that your superpower is building a sales org that doesn't feel like a sales org to engineers.

所以她提出的问题是：要做到这一点需要什么？

So the question she suggested is just like, what does it take to do that?

构建一个工程师和产品团队真正喜欢合作的销售组织，需要哪些要素？

What are the ingredients to building a sales org that engineers and product teams really like working with?

我给我的销售团队设定的试金石是：如果你是我团队中的客户经理，我把你介绍给我们公司的10位工程师，他们需要10次才能发现你不是产品经理。

The litmus test I have always given my sales team is if you are an account executive in my org and I put you in front of 10 engineers at our company, it should take them 10 to figure out you aren't a product manager.

我想表达的是：你必须具备惊人的产品深度。

And what I'm trying to get across is you need to have incredible product depth.

这样做的原因有两个。

And the reason for that is twofold.

第一，它能让你在产品与工程部门中获得可信度。

One, it gives you credibility with the product and engineering org.

第二，我也认为地球上最优秀的市场推广组织应该同时兼顾创收和研发。

And two, I also believe that the best go to market orgs on the planet are equal parts revenue driving and r and d.

我之所以强调后者，是因为如果你想想产品管理组织，你可能有一个UXR团队在做调研，产品经理当然应该出去与客户交流。

And the reason I emphasize the latter is if you think about a product management organization, you know, you may have a UXR team, you know, out doing research, product managers certainly should be out talking to customers.

如果我有一个20人的销售团队，想想我们一周内能接触多少客户。

Well, if I have a 20 person sales team, think of the number of customers that we talk to in a week.

所以如果我们能出色地将所有这些反馈转化为有效信号，并输入到路线图中，我们实际上可以成为产品管理组织的延伸。

And so if we can do an excellent job of translating all of that feedback into signal and then feeding that into the road map, you know, we can be actually an extension of the product management org.

但这需要非常擅长从噪音中辨别信号，理解什么时候是需要克服的反对意见，什么时候是市场中的机遇。

But that takes being really good at discerning signal from noise, understanding when something is an objection that should be overcome versus, you know, a a market an opportunity in the market.

所以我认为这些因素确实起到了帮助作用。

So I think I think those things have helped.

我太喜欢这个观点了。

I just love this.

作为一个产品经理，也许是前产品经理，我都不知道现在自己算什么身份了。

As a product manager, maybe former product manager, I don't know what the hell I am these days.

我特别喜欢这个观点：销售人员与产品经理之间应该看不出区别。

I just love the idea of the salesperson, like, not knowing the difference between a product manager and a salesperson.

最经典的挑战就是销售部门总会要求增加各种功能。

The most classic challenge is sales orgs will ask for all these features.

是的。

Yes.

而产品经理则要不断拒绝并思考这些需求是否符合整体规划。

And PMs are constantly having to push back and think about does this fit into everything.

所以感觉这其中很大一部分是要深入理解这一点。

So it feels like that's a big part of this is to understand that deeply.

没错。

Yeah.

你需要一个能像总经理一样思考的销售团队。

You want a sales you want a sales org that can think like a general manager.

他们不仅要促成交易，更要助力业务发展。

So, you know, that's not just trying to get deals done, but is trying to help build a business.

因此，他们需要懂得何时拒绝，何时处理异议，何时把握机会。

And so, again, knows when to say no, knows when to objection handle versus knows.