#136 – 丹·卡林：硬核历史

例如，他在1942年参加了瓜达尔卡纳尔岛战役。

He was at Guadalcanal, for example, in 1942.

琼斯曾说，士兵在前线作战中的转变，几乎需要接受自己会活下来的念头。

And Jones had said that the evolution of a soldier in frontline action requires an almost surrendering to the idea that you're going to live.

你逐渐习惯了自己可能会死的想法。

That you become accustomed to the idea that you're going to die.

他说，仅仅认真思考这个念头，你就会变得完全不同，因为我们大多数人不会这样。

And he said, You're a different person simply for considering that thought seriously because most of us don't.

但这种心态能让你在前线完成自己的任务。

But what that allows you to do is to do that job at the front line.

对吧？

Right?

如果你太在意自己的生命，就很难成为一个称职的人。

If you're too concerned about your own life, become less of a good guy at your job.

前线百码之内的人与后方医疗单位的人另一点不同在于，他们会杀人，而且杀很多。

The other thing that the people in the 100 yards at the front line do that the people in the rear medical unit really don't is you kill, and you kill a lot.

你不会只是说，哦，后面有个狙击手，所以我开枪打死了他。

You don't just, Oh, there's a sniper back here, so I shot him.

我们会从一个阵地转移到另一个阵地，杀死很多人。

It's we go from one position to another, and we kill lots of people.

这些事情会改变你。

Those things will change you.

而这通常会带来一些影响，但并非普遍如此，因为我读过一些苏联红军士兵的回忆，他们非常爱国。

And what that tends to do, not universally, because I've read accounts from Red Army soldiers, and they're very patriotic.

对吧？

Right?

但很多这种爱国情怀是在多年后，作为怀旧和回忆的一部分才浮现出来的。

But a lot of that patriotism comes through years later as part of the nostalgia and the remembering.

当你身处前线这100码时，世界往往缩小到一个非常小的范围。

When you're down at that front 100 yards, it is often boiled down to a very small world.

所以你的祖父——是你祖父吗？

So your grandfather Was it your grandfather?

祖父。

Grandfather.

在机枪旁，他关心的是自己的位置、战友以及他所负有责任的人。

At the machine gun, he's concerned about his position and his comrades and the people who he owes a responsibility to.

在那一刻，世界变得非常狭小。

It's a very small world at that point.

对我来说，英雄主义就体现在这里。

And to me, that's where the heroism is.

对吧？

Right?

他并不是为了某种宏大的文明事业而战。

He's not fighting for some giant world civilizational thing.

他是为了拯救身边的人，同时也为了保全自己的生命，因为他们在拯救他。

He's fighting to save the people next to him and and his own life at the same time because they're saving him too.

这其中蕴含着巨大的英雄主义，这也回应了我们之前关于武力的问题。

And and that there is a a huge amount of heroism to that, and that gets to our question about force earlier.

你为什么要使用武力？

Why would you use force?

那么，为了保护我两边的这些人呢？

Well, how about to protect these people on either side of me?

对吧？

Right?

他们的生命。

Their lives.

现在，有仇恨吗？

Now, is there hatred?

有。

Yeah.

我憎恨德国人所做的事情。

I hated the Germans for what they were doing.

事实上，不久前我收到一份民意调查的留言，我有这种倾向，总是提到纳粹。

As a matter of fact, I got a note from a poll not that long ago, and I have this tendency to refer to the Nazis.

对吧？

Right?

那个政权已经过去了，他说，你为什么一直称他们为纳粹？

The regime that was and he said, why do you keep calling them Nazis?

他说，就说他们本来的样子。

He says, Say what they were.

他们就是德国人。

They were Germans.

这个家伙希望我不要通过说‘哦，是一群可恶的人接管了你们国家’来为德国开脱。

And this guy wanted me to not absolve Germany by saying, Oh, it was this awful group of people that took over your country.

他说是德国人干的。

He said the Germans did this.

那种怨恨在于他说，我们不能忘记他们对我们做了什么，以及我们不得不回击什么。

There's that bitterness where he says, Let's not forget what they did to us and what we had to do back.

对吧？

Right?

所以对我来说，当我们谈论这些战斗情境时，我称这些人是英雄，因为他们是在为我们都能够理解的事物而战。

So for me, when we talk about these combat situations, the reason I call these people heroic is because they're fighting to defend things we could all understand.

我的意思是，如果你来伤害我弟弟，而我拿起机枪射击你，你打算彻底压倒我，这就成了我们之前谈到的反制力量的情境。

I mean, if you come after my brother and I take a machine gun and shoot you, and you're going to overrun me, that becomes a situation where we talked about counterforce earlier.

当你在拯救他人，或保护你身后这座城镇时，更容易称自己为英雄——你知道，如果他们突破了你的机枪防线，就会烧毁这些村庄。

Much easier to call yourself a hero when you're saving people, or you're saving this town right behind you and you know if they get through your machine gun, they're going to burn these villages.

他们会把这些人赶出家门，在寒冬中流离失所，这些家庭。

They're going to throw these people out in the middle of winter, these families.

对我来说，这种英雄主义与那种模糊的爱国主义观念截然不同。

That to me is a very different sort of heroism than this amorphous idea of patriotism.

爱国主义是我们常常被用来利用的东西。

Patriotism is a thing that we often get used with.

对吧？

Right?

人们通过爱国情怀来操控我们，因为他们明白这是我们内心强烈的情感，但他们有时利用这一点来煽动战争狂热，或者驱使人们——有一句很棒的话，我真希望记得完整原话，是赫尔曼·戈林说的，关于如何轻易地把人民拖入战争。

People manipulate us through love of country and all this because they understand that this is something we feel very strongly, but they use it us sometimes in order to whip up a war fever or to get people I mean, there's a great line, and I wish I could remember it in its entirety, that Herman Goring had said about how easy it was to get the people into a war.

他说，你知道的，你只需唤起他们的爱国心。

He says, you know, you just appeal to their patriots.

我的意思是，有一些按钮你可以按下，他们就会利用人们对国家的爱，以及我们对那些舍生忘死的战士的忠诚与敬仰。

Mean, there's buttons that you can push, and they take advantage of things like love of country and the way we have a loyalty and an admiration to the warriors who put their lives on the line.

这些是人类身上可以被操控的特质，它们可靠地推动我们走向某些方向，而在更清醒、更理性的状态下，我们会对此有不同的看法。

These are manipulatable things in the human species that reliably can be counted on to move us in directions that in a more sober, reflective state of mind we would consider differently.

它会激起战争狂热，人们挥舞旗帜，开始谴责敌人，我的意思是，我们一次又一次地看到过这种情况。

It gets the I mean, you get this war fever up, and people people wave flags and they start denouncing the enemy, they start I mean, you know, we've seen it over and over and over again.

在古代，这种情况就发生过。

In ancient times, this happened.

但对国家的热爱也是美好的。

But the love of country is also beautiful.

我在美国没怎么见过，但美国人确实深爱自己的国家。

So I haven't seen it in America as much, so people in America love their country.

这种爱国主义在美国非常强烈。

Like, this patriotism is strong in America.

但我觉得没有我年轻时对苏联的热爱那么强烈了。

But it's not as strong as I remember, even with my sort of being younger, the love of the Soviet Union.

是苏联吗？

Now was it the Soviet Union?

这需要区分一下，还是说母俄罗斯？

This requires a distinction, or was it mother Russia?

其实真正的是共产党。

What it really was was the Communist Party.

好的。

Okay.

所以是当时存在的体制。

So it was this it was the system in place.

好的。

Okay.

当时的体制，比如热爱，我还没有深入地心理分析过你到底热爱的是什么。

The system in place, like, loving, I haven't quite deeply psychoanalyzed exactly what you love.

我认为你爱的是那种 populist 的口号，关于工人、普通人的那种理念，普通人的理念。

I think you love the that, like, populist message of the worker, of the common man, the common man.

让我来打个比方吧。

Let me let me draw the the comparison then.

我经常说，美国和苏联一样，都是基于意识形态的社会。

And I often say this, that The United States, like the Soviet Union, is an ideological based society.

对吧？

Right?

所以你看法国这样的国家，现在是哪个法国政府其实并不重要。

So you take a country like France, it doesn't matter which French government you're in now.

法国人长期以来一直都是法国人。

The French have been the French for a long time.

对吧？

Right?

它并不是基于某种意识形态的。

It's it's not based on an ideology.

对吧？

Right?

而使美国团结起来的是意识形态——自由、 liberty、宪法。

Whereas what unites The United States is an ideology, freedom, liberty, the constitution.

这就是吸引人的地方，这是一种理念。

This is what draws know, it's the kind of the idea.

对吧？

Right?

合众为一。

That out of many, one.

那么，是什么将这些独特而不同的人联系在一起？

Well, what what binds all these unique different people?

是这些共同的信念，这种意识形态。

These shared beliefs, this ideology.

苏联也是如此，因为你知道，苏联的俄罗斯只是苏联的一部分。

The Soviet Union was the same way because as you know, the Soviet Union, Russia was merely one part of the Soviet Union.

如果你相信直到斯大林时代所宣扬的言论，总有一天所有人都会团结在这面意识形态的旗帜下。

And if you believe the rhetoric until Stalin's time, everybody was going to be united under this ideological banner someday.

对吧？

Right?

这是一场全球性的革命。

It was a global revolution.

意识形态社会是不同的。

Ideological societies are different.

如果你支持这种意识形态框架和目标，我的意思是，我是个崇尚自由的人。

And to be a fan of the ideological framework and goal, I mean, I'm a liberty person.

对吧？

Right?

我希望世界上每个人都拥有我的政体，这本身就是一种偏见。

I would like to see everybody in the world have my system of government, which is part of a of a bias.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们可能并不想要那样。

Because they might not want that.

但我认为这对每个人都有好处，因为我认为这对我更好。

But I think it's better for everyone because I think it's better for me.

同时，当你考虑这种意识形态时，它源于启蒙时代的观念，其中存在一种偏见。

At the same time, when the ideology if you consider and, you know, this stems from ideas of the enlightenment, and there's a bias there.

所以我的偏见倾向于……但你感受到的正是为什么你说我们要给伊拉克带来自由。

So my bias are toward the but you feel and this is why you say we're gonna bring freedom to Iraq.

我们要给这里带来自由。

We're gonna bring freedom to here.

我们要带来自由，因为我们认为我们正在向你们传播一些无可争议的积极事物。

We're gonna bring freedom because we think we're spreading to you something that is just undeniably positive.

我们要解放你们，给你们这些东西。

We're going to free you and give you this.

我很难摆脱自己在这里的偏见。

It's hard for me to to wipe my own bias away from there.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果我在伊拉克，比如，我会想要自由。

Because if I were in Iraq, for example, I would want freedom.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你离开了，让伊拉克人自由投票选他们想选的人，他们会选一个什么样的人呢？你看现在的俄罗斯，我经常听到俄罗斯人的声音，因为关于俄罗斯和苏联的许多观点都是在我成长时期形成的。

But if you then leave and let the Iraqis vote for whomever they want, are they gonna vote for somebody that will I mean, you you look at at Russia now, and I hear from Russians quite a bit because so much of my views on Russia and the Soviet Union were formed in my formative years.

但那时我们很少听到苏联内部的声音，现在却听得到了。

And we were not hearing from many people in the Soviet Union back then, but now you do.

你现在会听到俄罗斯人说：你对斯大林的看法已经过时且冷酷。

You hear from Russians today who will say, Your views on Stalin are archaic and cold.

所以你会试着调整自己的信念，但这引出了一个问题：如果你给俄罗斯人民一次自由公正的投票，他们会选一个承诺建立基于启蒙和民主原则的自由开放社会的人吗？

So you try to reorient your beliefs a little bit, but it goes to this idea of if you gave the people in Russia a free and fair vote, will they vote for somebody who promises them a free and open society based on enlightenment democratic principles?

还是会选一个让我们美国人感到困惑的人：他们在干什么？

Or will they vote for somebody we in The US would go, what are they doing?

他们投票选了一个强人，所以我认为很难摆脱我们自己的偏见和先入之见，这完全是一种仁者见仁的问题。

They're voting for some strong man who's just So I think it's very hard to throw away our own biases and preconceptions, and it's an all eye of the beholder kind of thing.

但当你谈论意识形态社会时，要摆脱多年灌输的系统优越性观念是非常困难的。

But when you're talking about ideological societies, it is very difficult to throw off all the years of indoctrination into the superiority of your system.

听好了，在苏联，无论怎样，马克思主义都渗透在每一间教室里。

Listen, in the Soviet Union, Marxism, one way or another, was part of every classrooms.

你可能正在学几何，但他们总会以某种方式把马克思主义掺进去。

You could be studying geometry, and they'll throw Marxism in there somehow.

因为那是凝聚社会的纽带，也是赋予它更高使命的原因。

Because that's what united the society, and that's what gave it a higher purpose.

而在那些捍卫它的人心中，这使它成为一种更优越、道德上更崇高的制度。

And that's what made it, in the minds of the people who were its defenders, a superior, morally superior system.

我们这里也是一样。

And we do the same thing here.

事实上，大多数人都是如此。

In fact, most people do.

但你看，无论意识形态或政府如何变化，你始终是法国人。

But see, you're still French no matter what the ideology or the government might be.

从这个意义上说，这两个系统之间爆发冷战真是讽刺，因为它们都是基于意识形态的体系，汇聚了来自不同背景的人们，而这些人都在意识形态的旗帜下团结在一起。

So in that sense, it's funny that there would be a cold war with these two systems because they're both ideologically based systems involving peoples of many different backgrounds who are united under the umbrella of the ideology.

首先，这话说得太精彩了。

First of all, that's brilliantly put.

我处于一个很特别的位置：我十三岁时来到这里，那时正是青春期，初恋也好，其他什么也好，我爱上了美国的自由和个人主义理念。

I'm in a funny position that in my formative years, I came here when I was 13, is when I you know, teenage is your first love or whatever, is I fall in I fall in love with the American set of ideas of freedom and individuals.

很有意思，不是吗？

Telling, aren't they?

它们很有说服力。

They're compelling.

是的。

Yeah.

但我还记得，就像你记得前女友之类的事情一样。

But I also remember it's like you remember, like, maybe an ex girlfriend or something like that.

我还记得，当时我非常喜爱苏联的理念。

I also remember loving as a very different human the the Soviet idea.

比如，我们有国歌，我认为那是最酷的国歌，就是苏联的国歌。

Like, we had the national anthem, which is still the I think the most badass national anthem, which is the Soviet Union.

它唱的是我们是一个不可摧毁的国家。

Like, saying we're the indestructible nation.

我的意思是，光是这些词就让人感觉，美国人的词总是像：哦，我们很友善。

I mean, just the words are so like, Americans' words are like, oh, we're nice.

我们是自由。

Like, we're we're freedom.

但苏联国歌却像是：我们是狠角色。

But like a Russian Soviet Union national anthem was like, we're bad motherfuckers.

没人能摧毁我们。

Nobody will destroy us.

我只是记得，小时候对一个国家感到自豪，虽然那时懵懂无知，因为我们所有人都必须背诵这些内容。

I just remember feeling pride in a nation as a kid, like, dumb not knowing anything because we all had to recite the stuff.

那时一切都显得整齐划一。

It was there's uniformity to everything.

背后有一种根深蒂固的自豪感。

There's pride underlying everything.

我当时没有去思考官僚体系的破坏性、无能，以及共产主义在八九十年代实施过程中伴随的种种问题。

I didn't think about all the destructive nature of the bureaucracy, the incompetence, the you know, all the things that come with the implementation of communism, especially around the eighties and nineties.

但我记得那种热爱那套理念的感觉。

But I I remember what it's like to love the that set of ideas.

所以我现在处于一种奇怪的状态：回忆起那种爱的转变，因为我常开玩笑说自己是俄罗斯人，但事实上，我长期忠诚的对象现在是美国理想。

So I'm in a funny place of, like, remember, like, switching the love, because I kinda joke around about being Russian, but, you know, my my long term monogamous relationship is now with the idea the American ideal.

我的脑海里已经固着于它了。

Like, I'm stuck with it in my mind.

但当我看到人们批评中国，或批评对斯大林、普京的纪念方式时，我也会想起那种热爱的感觉。

But I remember what it was like to love it, and I and I I think about that too when people criticize China or they criticize the current state of affairs with how Stalin is remembered and how Putin is.

要知道，你不能总是用美国式的个人主义、极端个人主义和自由观念去分析世界其他地方的情况，比如中国或俄罗斯。如果你不把自己太当回事——像美国人那样，也像我那样——那么对政府的热爱、对国家的信念、放下自我、权利和自由，去信奉比自身更宏大的东西，其实是一种很美好的情感。

To know that the you can't always wear the American ideal of individualism, radical individualism, and freedom in analyzing the ways of the world elsewhere, like in China, in Russia, that it does if you don't take yourself too seriously, as Americans all do, as I do, it's it's kind of a beautiful love to have for your government, to believe in the nation, to let go of yourself and your rights and your freedoms, to believe in something bigger than yourself.

这实际上是一种自由。

That's actually that's a kind of freedom.

你实际上是在解放自己。

That's you're actually liberating yourself.

如果你认为人生就是苦难，那么你就是在顺应水流，顺应世界的潮流，通过放弃自身的更多力量，将其赋予你所认为的人民集体的力量。

If you think like life is suffering, you're you're giving into the flow of the water, the flow the way of the world by giving away more power from yourself and giving it to what you would conceive as as the power of the people together.

我们共同努力，必将成就伟大的事业，真正相信这些理想——在这种情况下，我甚至不知道该如何称呼俄罗斯，但不管那是什么，一个专制而强大的国家、一个强大的领导人，相信这种信念可以像相信美国理想一样美好。

Together, we will do great things and really believing in the ideals of what in that in this case, I don't even know what you would call Russia, but whatever the heck that is, authoritarian, powerful state, powerful leader, believing that can be as beautiful as believing the American ideal.

不仅仅是这样。

Not just that.

让我补充一下你刚才说的。

Let me add to what you're saying.

我花了很多时间试图摆脱自己的偏见。

I'm very I spend a lot of time trying to get out of my own biases.

这是一项长期来看徒劳的努力，但你仍努力成为比平时更好的自己。

It is a it is a fruitless endeavor long term, but you try to be better than than you normally are.

中国和我经常有一个批评，你知道，作为美国人，我倾向于认为这是他们的政府。

One of the critiques that China and I always, you know, as an American, I tend to think about this as their government.

对吧？

Right?

这是他们的政府提出的一种理由。

This is a rationale that their government puts forward.

但你刚才说的其实是，如果你能让这种观点变得美好，那是一种相当美好的处理方式。

But what you just said is actually if you can make that viewpoint beautiful, is kind of a beautiful way of approaching it.

中国人会说，我们在美国称之为人权、并认为是全世界每个人与生俱来的权利，实际上只是西方的权利。

The Chinese would say that what we call human rights in The United States and what we consider to be everybody's birthright around the world is instead Western rights.

他们就是这么用词的——西方的权利。

That's the words they use, Western rights.

这是一种根本上源于西方、基于启蒙运动的理念，关于何为人的权利。

It's a it's a fundamentally Western oriented and I'll go back to the enlightenment enlightenment based ideas on what constitutes the rights of man.

他们会认为，这并不具有国际普适性。

And they would suggest that that's not internationally and always applicable.

对吧？

Right?

你可以提出这种论点，而且再次说明，我不相信这一点。

That you can make a case and again, I don't believe this.

这与我个人的观点相悖。

This runs against my own personal views.

但你可以论证，一个庞大群体的集体福祉，比任何单个人的个体需求更重要，尤其是当这些需求相互冲突时。

But that you could make a case that the collective well-being of a very large group of people outweighs the individual needs of any single person, especially if those things are in conflict with each other.

如果你因为每个人都过于个人主义而无法实现更大的利益，那么更好的做法难道不是压制个人主义，从而让所有人都过得更好吗？

If you cannot provide for the greater good because everyone's so individualistic, well then really what is the better thing to do, to suppress individualism so everybody's better off?

如果我们想了解你之前提到的消除战争的问题，那么理解他人可能如何看待这一点是很重要的。

I think trying to recognize how someone else might see that is important if we want to know, you had talked about eliminating war.

我们谈到了消除冲突。

We talked about eliminating conflict.

要实现这一点，首先需要尝试理解他人可能如何以不同于你自己的方式看待事物。

The first need to do that is to try to understand how someone else might view something differently than yourself.

我素来是那些认同传统美国主义理念的人之一。

I'm famously one of those people who buys in to the ideas of traditional Americanism.

你看，如今很多人认为，爱国主义就意味着支持强大的军队和我们今天拥有的所有这些东西，但这是对传统美国主义的扭曲。在共和国最初的百年里，传统美国主义对这些事物始终抱有疑虑，因为人们认为它们与美国人所珍视的核心价值背道而驰。

Look, what a lot of people live today, they would seem to think that things like patriotism requires a belief in the strong military and all these things we have today, but that is a corruption of traditional Americanism, which viewed all those things with suspicion in the first hundred years of the republic because they saw it as an enemy to the very things that Americans celebrated.

对吧？

Right?

如果你有一个压倒一切的军队，总是忙于打仗，你怎么可能拥有自由、 liberty 和个性表达？美国的开国先贤们参考了其他例子，比如欧洲，发现常备军正是自由的敌人。

How could you have freedom and liberty and individualistic expression if you had an overriding military that was always fighting wars, and the founders of this country looked to other examples, like Europe, for example, and saw that standing militaries, for example, standing armies were the enemy of liberty.

现在我们确实拥有一支常备军，而且它已经深深融入了我们整个社会。

Well, we have a standing army now and one that is totally interwoven in our entire society.

如果你回到过去，去跟约翰·昆西·亚当斯——美国早期的总统——谈谈，给他看看我们现在的情况，他会觉得这糟糕透顶，认为美国人 somewhere 沿途迷失了方向，忘记了自己真正的宗旨。

If you go back in time and talk to John Quincy Adams, right, early president of The United States, and show him what we have now, he would think it was awful and horrible and that somewhere along the line, the Americans had lost their way and forgotten what they were all about.

但我们已经成功地将现代军事工业复合体与美国制度和意识形态的传统优势交织在一起，使它们在我们的思维中融为一体。

But we have so successfully interwoven this modern military industrial complex with the traditional benefits of the American system and ideology so that they've become intertwined in our thinking.

而一百五十年前，它们实际上被视为对立的两极，彼此构成威胁。

Whereas one hundred and fifty years ago, they were actually considered to be at opposite polarities and a threat to one another.

所以当你谈到对国家的热爱时，我往往对这些持怀疑态度。

So when you talk about the love of the nation, I tend to be suspicious of those things.

我通常对政府持怀疑态度。

I tend to be suspicious of government.

我努力尽量不被操纵，我觉得他们所做的很大一部分就是操纵和宣传。

I tend to tend to try very hard to not be manipulated, and I feel like a large part of what they do is manipulation and propaganda.

因此，我认为对国家的健康怀疑，恰恰是传统意义上百分之百的美国主义。

And so I think a healthy skepticism of the nation state is actually 100% Americanism in the traditional sense of the word.

但我也必须承认，正如你精辟指出的，美国主义并非普遍适用。

But I also have to recognize, as you so eloquently stated, Americanism is not necessarily universal at all.

所以我认为我们必须努力更加理解。

So I think we have to try to be more understanding.

传统的美国观点认为，如果像中国这样的地方不保障人民的个人人权，那就是在剥夺他们某种东西。

See, the traditional American viewpoint is that if a place like China does not allow their people individual human rights, then they're being denied something.

他们被剥夺了，一百年前人们会说这是上帝赋予的权利。

They're being denied, and a hundred years ago they would have said they're God given rights.

人生而自由，若不自由，那是被人剥夺了。

Man is born free, and if he's not free, it's because of something done to him.

政府剥夺了他与生俱来的权利。

The government has taken away his God given rights.

光是听你说这些，我就激动起来了。

I'm getting excited just listening to that.

我的意思是，认为这种理念具有普适性，这本身就是一种偏见。

Well, what I mean But I mean, I think the idea that this is universal is in and of itself a bias.

那么，我是否希望每个人都拥有自由？

Now, do I want freedom for everybody else?

我当然希望。

I sure do.

但那些真正信奉这一理念的苏联人，希望全世界的工人联合起来，摆脱那些贪婪的、吸血的剥削者，他们让工人累死，却把劳动成果全部据为己有。

But the people in the Soviet Union who really bought into that wanted the workers of the world to unite and not be exploited by the greedy, blood sucking people who worked them to death and pocketed all of the fruits of their labor.

如果你这样描述，这听起来也像是正义。

If you frame it that way, that sounds like justice as well.

所以这取决于个人的看法。

So it is an eye of the beholder sort of thing.

我想和你聊聊弗拉基米尔·普京，趁我们现在还带着这种共情的感觉，试图理解那些与我们不同的人。

I'd love to talk to you about Vladimir Putin, sort of while we're in this feeling and wave of empathy and trying to understand others that are not like us.

我开始这个播客的原因之一，是因为我相信有少数人我可以与之交谈。

One of the reasons I started this podcast is because I believe that there's a few people I could talk to.

其中一部分是自尊心作祟。

Some of it is ego.

另一部分是愚蠢。

Some of it is stupidity.

有没有一些人，是我能谈得来的，但别人却很难与之沟通？

Is there some people I could talk to that not many others can talk to?

我想到的一个人就是弗拉基米尔·普京。

The one person I was I was thinking about was Vladimir Putin.

你

Do you

你还说俄语吗？

still speak the language?

我俄语说得很好。

I speak the language very well.

这就更意味着你可能会被任命担任那份工作。

That makes it even I mean, you might be you might be appointed for that job.

这就是我问你这个问题的背景。

That's the context in which I'm asking you this question.

从历史的角度来看，你对弗拉基米尔·普京有什么看法？

What are your thoughts about Vladimir Putin from a historical context?

你研究过他吗？

Have you studied him?

你思考过他吗？

Have you thought about him?

是的。

Yes.

“研究”这个词带有很强的主观色彩。

Studied is a is a loaded word.

这里再说一遍，我有时很难不以美国人的视角来过滤这些信息。

Here's here's and again, I find it hard sometimes to not filter things through an American lens.

对。

Right.

因此，作为一个美国人，我会说，俄罗斯人应该有权选择他们想要的任何领导人。

So as an American, I would say that the Russians should be allowed to have any leader that they want to have.

但一个美国人会说，但应该举行选举。

But what an American would say is, but there should be elections.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果俄罗斯人选择弗拉基米尔·普京，并且一再选择他，那是他们的事。

So if the Russians choose Vladimir Putin and they keep choosing him, that's their business.

而作为一个美国人，我会感到困扰的是，当这位领导人不再让俄罗斯人做这个决定时。

Where where as an American, I would have a problem is when that leader stops letting the Russians make that decision.

我们会说，现在你已不再依靠人民的同意来统治了。

And we would say, well, now you're no longer ruling by the consent of the governed.

你已经变成了一个可能压迫自己人民的人。

You've become the equivalent of a person who may be oppressing your people.

你简直就像个独裁者。

You might as well be a dictator.

对吧？

Right?

现在，一个自由选举并一再连任的独裁者，和真正的独裁者之间是有区别的，对吧，如果这就是他们想要的的话。

Now there's a difference between a freely elected and reelected and reelected and reelected dictator, right, if that's what they want.

听好了，像这样一概而论地看待俄罗斯人，就像一概而论地看待任何人一样愚蠢。

Look, it would be silly to broad brush the Russians like it would be silly to broad brush anyone.

有数以百万计的人，他们各自持有不同的观点。

Millions and millions of people with different opinions amongst them all.

但他们似乎喜欢一个强有力的领导人。

But they seem to like a strong person at the helm.

而且听好了，美国国内也有很大一部分人是这样做的。

And listen, there's a giant chunk of Americans who do too in their own country.

但美国人会说，只要俄罗斯人拥有选择的自由，没有被剥夺这项权利，那么说他曾经是民选的是一回事，但很久以前我们就不再举行选举了，那就是另一回事了。

But an American would say, as long as the freedom of choice is is given to the Russians to decide this and not taken away from the right it's one thing to say he was freely elected, but a long time ago, and we've done away with elections since then, is is a different story too.

所以我对弗拉基米尔·普京的态度是：如果这是俄罗斯人民想要的，而且他们确实有选择权，如果他之所以在位是因为人民不断选举他，那情况就完全不同了。

So my attitude on on Vladimir Putin is if that's who the Russian people want and you give them the choice, right, if he's only there because they keep electing him, that's a very different story.

当他不再给人民选择他或不选他的机会时，对于那些从小被灌输这种思维和理念的人来说，事情就开始显得阴暗了——这种理念是我自身不可分割的一部分，你可以说你能看到灰色地带和细微差别，但很难真正摆脱它。

When when he stops offering them the option of choosing him or not choosing him, that's when it begins to look nefarious to someone born and raised with the mindset and the ideology that is an integral part of of yours truly and that I can't you know, you you can see gray areas and nuance all you like, but it's hard to escape.

正如你所愿，你也提到了这一点。

As you wish and you you alluded to this too.

要摆脱在成长关键时期被灌输到骨子里的东西，是很难的。

It's hard to escape what was indoctrinated into your bones in your formative years.

就像你的骨头在生长一样。

It's like ex you know, your bones are growing.

对吧？

Right?

你无法回头，对我来说，这已经成为我身份中根深蒂固的一部分，我很难抛弃它并说：‘哦，不是这样的。’

And you can't go back I mean, to me, this is so much a part of who I am that I have a hard time jettisoning that and saying, oh, no.

弗拉基米尔·普京不再当选，这完全没问题。

Vladimir Putin not being elected anymore is just fine.

我太受成长环境的影响了，无法接受那种观点。

I'm too much of a product of my upbringing to go there.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

但当然，就像我们之前说的，存在一些灰色地带——我认为我得仔细想想，但我觉得在20世纪30年代的纳粹德国，阿道夫·希特勒确实成为了民众的普遍选择。

But of course, there's like we were saying, there's gray areas, which is I believe I I have to think through this, but I think there is a point at which Adolf Hitler became the popular choice in Nazi Germany in the thirties.

从美国人的角度来看，你可以以肤浅的方式，也可以以深刻的方式批评普京维持权力的方式——他通过控制媒体来实现这一点，从而限制了我们美国人所珍视的另一项自由，即新闻自由或言论自由，这是完全有可能的。

There's a in the in the same way, from an American perspective, you can start to criticize some in a shallow way, some in a deep way, the way that Putin has has maintained power is by controlling the press, so limiting one other freedom that we Americans value, which is the the freedom of the press or freedom of speech that he it is very possible.

现在情况正在变化，但在他大部分总统任期内，他都是受欢迎的选择，有时甚至远超他人。

Now things are changing now, but for most of his presidency, he was the popular choice and sometimes by far.

你知道，我实际上在俄罗斯没有不喜爱普京的家人。

And, you know, I have I actually don't have real family in Russia who don't love Putin.

写信给我、表达不喜欢普京的，只有那些年轻的活动人士。

I the only people who write to me about Putin and not liking him are, like, sort of activists who are young.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但对我来说，他们都是陌生人。

But, like, to me, they're strangers.

我对他们一无所知。

I don't know anything about them.

我认识的人，我家里在俄罗斯的大家庭都支持普京。

The people I do know, I have a big family in

他们爱普京。

Russia, they love Putin.

他们不参加选举吗？

They Do they miss elections?

他们是否希望通过投票箱来表达选择，还是因为他们太爱他了，根本不愿冒险让别人把他选下去？

Would they want the choice to prove it at the ballot box and and or or are they so in love with him that they're they wouldn't wanna take a chance that someone might vote him out?

不。

No.

他们不会这样想。

They don't think of it this way.

他们也知道俄罗斯暗地里存在着可怕的官僚主义和腐败，这确实是事实。

And they are aware of the incredible bureaucracy and corruption that is lurking in the shadows, which is true in Russia.

对。

Right.

到处都是。

Everywhere.

到处都是。

Everywhere.

但某种程度上，俄罗斯的情况不同，那是遗留问题。

But, like, there's something about the Russian it's the remnants.

腐败已经深深植根于俄罗斯，也就是苏联体制之中，即使苏联被推翻、解体，普京上台后对许多制度进行了改革，腐败依然根深蒂固。

It's corruption is so deeply part of the Russian so the Soviet system that even the overthrow of the Soviet the the the breaking apart of the Soviet Union and Putin coming and reforming a lot of the system, it's still deeply in there.

而且他们对此心知肚明。

And and they're aware of that.

这种对普京的爱，部分源于对腐败分子和贪婪之徒掌权后后果的恐惧。

That's part of the like, the love for Putin is partially grounded in the fear of what happens when the corrupt take over, the greedy take over.

他们把普京视为稳定者，一种强硬的、制衡的力量。

And they they see Putin as the stabilizer, as like a hard, like, force that says A counter force.

一种能让你整顿好一切的制衡力量。

Counter force that gets your shit together.

从西方的角度来看，普京很糟糕，但从俄罗斯人的角度看，普京是唯一能让这个国家不崩溃的支柱。

Like, from the western perspective, Putin is is terrible, but from from the Russian perspective, Putin is is the only thing holding this thing together before it goes if it collapses.

加里·卡斯帕罗夫在这方面一直很 outspoken，从西方的角度来看，很多人会说：‘如果它非得崩溃，那就让它崩吧。’

Now, the from the like, Garry Kasparov has been loud on this, you know, a lot of people from the western perspective say, well, if it has to collapse, let it collapse.

你知道的？

You know?

说起来容易

That's easier said

但当你不必亲身经历时，做起来就难了。

than done when you don't have to live through that.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，任何关心家人的人也都记得上世纪90年代苏联解体时的通货膨胀、经济动荡、苦难和饥荒，他们也看到了普京掌权后带来的改革和经济活力，于是认为：这个人至少在维持着局面。

And so anyone worrying about their family about and they also remember the the inflation and the economic instability and the suffering and the starvation that happened in the nineties with the collapse of the Soviet Union, and they saw the kind of reform and the economic vibrancy that happened when Putin took power, that they think, like, this guy's holding it together.

他们认为选举可能只是腐败分子操纵系统、不公平地压制民意的工具，而不是让人民真正发声的途径。

And they see elections as potentially being mechanisms by which the corrupt people can manipulate the system unfairly as opposed to letting the people speak with their voice.

他们 somehow 找到办法操纵选举，选出像那些西方革命者一样的人。

They somehow figure out a way to manipulate the elections to elect somebody, like one of them Western revolutionaries.

所以我认为，美国制度中一个重要的信念是相信选举制度，相信人民的声音能够在各种政府体系中被听到，无论是司法体系，还是说，基本上，人们假设这个体系运作得足够好，足以让民众选出受欢迎的人选。

And so I think one of the beliefs that's important to the American system is the belief in the electoral system that the voice of the people can be heard in the various systems of government, whether it's judicial, whether it's I mean, basically, the assumption is that the system works well enough for you to be able to elect the popular choice.

好的。

Okay.

关于这一点，我想到了几件事。

So there's a couple of things that come to mind on that.

第一件事与寡头的概念有关。

The first one has to do with the idea of oligarchs.

政治学中有一种观点。

There's a belief in political science.

这并不是普遍共识，但如果你深入分析，每个社会实际上都是一种寡头政治。

You know, it's it's not the the overall belief, but that every society is sort of an oligarchy really if you break it down.

对吧？

Right?

你所谈论的是那些可能在俄罗斯形成寡头阶层的人，而普京则是能够利用国家权力来制约这些人的那个人。

What you're talking about are some of the people who would form an oligarchic class in Russia, and that Putin is the guy who can harness the power of the state to keep those people in check.

当然，在这种强人体制下，当国家在风暴中剧烈摇摆时，有人能掌控缰绳、引导航向，但问题在于权力交接。

The problem, of course, in a system like that, a strong man system, right, where you have somebody who can who can hold the reins and and steer the ship when the ship is violently in a storm is the succession.

所以，如果你没有建立一个能脱离你而运作的体系，那么你为强人统治所辩护的那些可怕动荡与黑暗未来，终将在你身后等待。

So if you're not creating a system that can operate without you, then that terrible instability and that terrible future that you that you justify the strong man for is just awaiting your future.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，除非他积极构建一个能超越他自身、让继任者也能像他一样行事的体系，否则你所做的只是创造了一种暂时的稳定——这就像君主制的问题一样，对吧？

I mean, unless unless he's actively building the system that will outlive him and allow successors to do what he's doing, then then what you've done here is create a temporary I would think a temporary stability here because it's the same problem you have in a monarchy, right?

在这种体制下，有一位国王，你认为他特别出色，但他迟早要把权力交给别人。

Where where you have this one king and he's particularly good, or you think he's particularly good, but he's gonna turn that job over to somebody else down the road.

而这个体系并不能保证稳定，因为没人真正致力于此——当然，如果你说普京这些年确实在做这些，你可以告诉我。

And the system doesn't guarantee because no one's really worked on and again, you you would tell me if if Putin is is putting into place I know he's talked about it over the years.

他是否在建立一个能超越他本人、并在他去世后仍能维持俄罗斯人民所欣赏的稳定的体系。

Putting into place a system that can outlive him and that will create the stability that the people in Russia like him for when he's gone.

因为如果寡头们之后接管了权力，那么有人可能会说，我们已经有了二十年的稳定时期。

Because if the oligarchs just take over afterwards, then one might argue, well, we had twenty good years of stability.

但我的意思是，如果我们把国家比作一艘船，从俄罗斯人的角度来看，掌舵的人可能确实做得很好。

But I mean, I would say that if we're talking about a ship of state here, the guy steering the ship maybe, if you wanted to look at it from the Russian point of view, has done a great job maybe.

我只是这么说。

Just saying.

但暗礁依然存在，而他不可能永远掌舵。

But the rocks are still out there, and he's not going to be at helm forever.

因此，人们会认为他的职责是确保在他去世后，有人能继续为俄罗斯人民掌舵。

So one would think that his job is to make sure that there's going to be someone who can continue to steer the ship for the people of Russia after he's gone.

现在让我问一下，因为我很好奇。

Now let me ask because I'm curious.

你和……无知。

Do you and and and ignorant.

所以，你认为他正在这样做吗？

So is he doing that, you think?

他是否在为没有普京之后的国家做好安排？

Is he setting it up so that when there is no Putin, the state is

安全吗？

safe?

从一开始，这就是目标，而现在我读每一本关于普京的英文传记时，我需要更深入地思考。

From the beginning, that was the idea whether one of the fascinating things now I read every biography, English written biography on Putin, so I haven't I need to think more deeply.

但其中一个有趣的问题是，权力是如何改变弗拉基米尔·普京的？

But one of the fascinating things is how did power change Vladimir Putin?

他掌权时和现在是完全不同的人。

He was a different man when he took power than he is today.

实际上，在很多方面，我钦佩那个掌权时的他。

I actually, in many ways, admire the man that took power.

我认为他和斯大林、希特勒在掌权之初时非常不同。

I think he's he's very different than Stalin and then Hitler at the moment they took power.

我认为希特勒和斯大林，正如我们之前讨论的那样，在掌权时就已经走在邪恶的道路上了。

I think Hitler and Stalin were both, in our previous discussion, already on the trajectory of evil.

我认为普京掌权时是个谦逊、忠诚、诚实的人。

I think Putin was a humble, loyal, honest man when he took power.

他今天的样子值得思考和研究。

The man he is today is worth thinking about and studying.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

那个那个

That that

不过，关于‘绝对权力导致绝对腐败’这句话是老生常谈了。

That's an old line though about absolute power corrupting absolutely.

但你知道，这其实是个老生常谈的说法。

But it's, you know, it's kind of a line.

你知道，这是一句很美的格言。

You know, it's it's a beautiful quote.

你真的得好好想想，这到底意味着什么？

You have to really think about it, you know, like, what does that actually mean?

比如，我还需要做的一件事是，你知道，我一直专注于确保对话的安全。

Like, one one of the things I I still have to do you know, I've been focusing on securing the conversation.

对吧？

Right?

所以我还没陷入黑暗，因为我觉得我不能长时间做黑暗的事。

So I I've been I haven't gone through a dark place yet because I feel like I can't do the dark thing for too long.

所以我真的必须把自己代入普京在对话前的心理状态。

So I really have to put myself in the mind of Putin leading up to the conversation.

但目前我的感觉是，当他掌权时，叶利钦给了他一个新俄罗斯的重要举措之一：历史上首次，一位领导人本可以继续掌权，却选择交出权力。

But for now, my sense is his he took power when Yeltsin gave him one of the big sort of acts of the new Russia was, for the first time in its history, a leader could have continued being in power and chose to give away power.

那就像乔治·华盛顿一样。

That was the George Washington

对。

Right.

你和美国会把这看作绝对正面的。

You and The United States would look at that as absolute positive.

是的。

Yeah.

是好事的迹象。

A sign a sign of good things.

对。

Yes.

那是一个巨大的举动，普京说，正是这一行为将定义21世纪的俄罗斯，他会继续高举这面旗帜。

And so that was a huge act, and Putin said that that that was the defining thing that will define Russia for the twenty first century, that act, and he will carry that flag forward.

这就是为什么他在两届任期后，

That's why in rhetoric, he after two terms,

他把权力交给了梅德韦杰夫。

he gave away To Medvedev.

是的。

Yeah.

但那是个傀儡。

But it was a puppet.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

但好吧。

But Okay.

但当时，这个故事仍在被讲述。

It was but, like, the still the story was being told.

我认为他早期就相信了。

I think he believed it early on.

我认为他现在仍然相信，但我认为他对潜藏在暗处的腐败深感怀疑。

I think he I believe he still believes it, but I think he's deeply suspicious of the corruption that lurks in the shadows.

而且我确实相信，作为一个认为点击诱饵式新闻已破产的人，记者真的让我很烦。

And I I do believe that, like, as somebody who thinks clickbait journalism is broken, journalists annoy the hell out of me.

点击量驱动的新闻报道运作得完美无缺。

Clickbait journalism is working perfectly.

新闻业已经垮了。

Journalism's broken.

新闻业的点击量那一套运作得非常好。

Journalism Clickbait thing's working great.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我从普京的角度理解，记者可能被视为国家的敌人，因为人们以为记者写的是那些深刻、优美的哲学文章，批评政府结构和正确政策，比如我们需要采取哪些步骤来建设一个更伟大的国家。

So I understand from Putin's perspective that journalism journalists can be seen as the enemy of the state because people think journalists write these deep beautiful philosophical pieces about criticizing the structure of government and the proper policy with, you know, the steps that we need to take to make a greater nation.

不是的。

No.

他们只是不公平地断章取义。

They they're unfairly take stuff out of context.

他们的批评方式肤浅且毫无趣味。

They they're critical in ways that's, like, shallow and not interesting.

他们动不动就称你为种族主义者或性别歧视者，或者总是编造虚假信息。

They they call you a racist or sexist or they make up stuff all the time.

所以我能理解那些认为应该把这种肤浅的虚假新闻声音从系统中清除的人的心态。

So I I can put myself in the mindset of a person that thinks that it is okay to remove that kind of shallow fake news voice from the system.

问题是，这显然会滑向一个危险的斜坡：你开始清除所有令人讨厌的人，然后重新定义什么是‘令人讨厌’——最终，任何反对体制的人都会被视为令人讨厌。我明白这种滑坡效应很明显，但我也能理解那些认为只要对俄罗斯有利，就应该清除说谎者的人的心态。

The problem is, of course, that is a slippery slope to then you remove all the annoying people from the system, and then you change what annoying means, which annoying starts becoming a thing that, like, anyone who opposes the the system I mean, I get I get the the slippery it's it's obvious that it becomes a slippery slope, but I can also put myself in the mindset of the people that see it's it's okay to remove the liars from the system as long as it's good for Russia.

嗯，好吧。

And and Okay.

因此，这里又体现了传统的美国视角，因为自共和国成立以来，我们就一直有所谓的黄色新闻。

So herein lies this, again, the traditional American perspective because we've had yellow so called yellow journalism since the founding of the republic.

这没什么新鲜的。

That's nothing new.

但问题就出在这里。

But but the problem then comes into play.

当你清除记者时，即使这是笼统的做法——你既清除了撒谎的糟糕记者，也清除了说实话的好记者，最终留下的只有政府批准的记者。

When you remove journalists, even you know, it's a broad brush thing because but you remove both the crappy ones who are lying and the ones who are telling the truth too, you're left with simply the approved government journalists.

对，那些紧跟政府路线的人，这样一来，你所认为的真相就成了另一种虚假新闻。

Right, the ones who are toeing the government's line, in which case the truth as you see it is a different kind of fake news.

对吧？

Right?

这是来自政府的虚假新闻，而不是点击率驱动的新闻，哦，对了，有些媒体可能也掺杂了一些真相。

It's the fake news from the government instead of the clickbait news and, oh, yeah, maybe truth mixed into all that too in some of the outlets.

我目前对美国体制一直感到困扰的是，如何从众多虚假信息中分辨出真相。

The problem I always have with our system here in The United States right now is trying to tease the truth out from all the falsehoods.

你看，我在新闻行业已经干了三十年。

And look, I've got thirty years in journalism.

在互联网出现之前，我的工作是翻阅所有报纸，找出真相——我以前认识所有记者的名字，能分辨出他们是谁，但现在我却很难区分真相与谎言。

My job used to be to go through before the Internet all the newspapers and and find the I used to know all the journalists by name, and I could pick out who they were, and and and I have a hard time picking out the truth from the falsehoods.

所以我一直在想，那些没有这种背景、有自己生活或从事其他专业的人，他们是怎么做到的？

So I think constantly, how are people who don't have all this background, who have lives or who are trained in other specialties, how do they do it?

但如果政府成为唯一被认可的真相来源，那么像我前面提到的启蒙思想所倡导的传统美国价值观，以及其他许多传统社会，都会认为这是一场即将发生的灾难，或正在演进的专制。

But if the government is the only approved outlet for truth, a traditional American and a lot of other traditional societies based on these ideas of the enlightenment that I talked about earlier would see that as a disaster waiting to happen or a tyranny in progress.

这有道理吗？

Does that make sense?

完全有道理。

It totally makes sense.

我同意你的观点。

And I would agree with you.

我仍然同意你，但很明显，关于新闻自由和言论自由，尤其是在过去几年互联网兴起的背景下，正在发生变化。

I still agree with you, but it is clear that something about the freedom of the press and freedom of speech in today, like, literally the last few years with the Internet is changing.

你知道，你可以说，美国的言论自由体系已经出了问题，因为我从小信奉的信念是——我至今仍坚持，但我开始尝试从多个角度看待它。

And the argument you know, you you could say that the American system of freedom of speech is is broken because the here's here's the belief I grew up on, and I still hold, but I'm starting to be sort of trying to see multiple views on it.

我的信念是，言论自由会始终导向一个稳定的真理轨迹。

My belief was that freedom of speech results in a stable trajectory towards truth always.

所以，真理终将浮现。

So, like, truth will emerge.

这是我一直以来的信仰：虽然到处都是谎言，但总会有一种稳定的真实信息传递给公众。

That was my sort of faith and belief that that, yeah, there's going to be lies all over the place, but there'll be, like, a stable thing that is true that's carried forward to the public.

现在的感觉是，我们可能正走向一个没有任何事情是真实的的世界，真理变成了群体自我说服的东西，而且存在多个这样的群体。

Now it feels like it's possible to go towards a world where nothing is true, where truth is is something that groups of people convince themselves of, and there's multiple groups of people.

我认为，某种普遍真理的概念，或许是更好的东西，但我们已无法再在这种框架下生存。

And the idea of some universal truth, I suppose, is the better thing, is is something that we can no longer exist under.

有些人坚信绿湾包装工队是最佳橄榄球队，而有些人则认为爱国者队才是，他们深信不疑，甚至称对方群体为骗子。

Like, some people believe that the Green Bay Packers is the best football team, and some people can think of the Patriots, and they deeply believe it to where they call the other groups liars.

这种现象在体育赛事中很有趣，在冰淇淋口味偏好上也很有趣，但人们也可能对科学、政治的各个方面，以及政府运作中的不同政策抱有类似信念。

Now that's fun for sports, that's fun for favorite flavors of ice cream, but they might believe that about science, about various aspects of politics, various aspects of sort of different policies within the function of our government.

这不仅仅是我们抱怨的一种怪异现象，而将成为事物的本质。

And, like, that's not just, like, some weird thing we complain about, but that'll be the nature of things.

真理，是我们再也无法拥有的东西。

Like, truth is something we can no longer have.

不过，让我们也来祛除对美国历史的浪漫化想象，因为美国媒体过去同样充满偏见，我的意思是，我总是把20世纪70年代视为美国新闻业的巅峰时期——水门事件之后，媒体积极追查政府的滥用行为等等。

Well, let's and and let me deromanticize the American history of this too, because the American press was often just as biased, just as I mean, I always look to the 1970s as the high watermark of the American journalistic I mean, the post Watergate era where it was actively going after the abuses of the government and all these things.

但当时有一位非常低调、几乎无人注意的演讲，由凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆发表，她当时是《华盛顿邮报》的编辑，我认为。

But there was a famous speech, very quiet though, very quiet, given by Katherine Graham, who was a Washington Post editor, I believe.

实际上，有人发给了我。

And I actually somebody sent it to me.

我们不得不从一个新闻业的类似J商店的地方获取它。

We had to get it off of a journalism, like a J store kind of thing.

她在一次午餐会上向在场的政府人士保证：别担心。

And she, at at a luncheon, assured the to the government people at the luncheon, don't worry.

这不会成为我们的一种趋势。

This is not gonna be something that we make a trend.

我们不会，因为政府的立场曾经由报纸传递，报纸在六十年代末、七十年代初之前一直是主要媒介。

We're not because the position of the government is still something that was carried the newspapers were the water and the newspapers were the big thing up until certainly the late sixties, early seventies.

报纸仍然是政府的信息传递者。

The newspapers were still the water carrier of the government.

对吧？

Right?

它们也是报纸所有者的利益传递者。

And they were the water carriers of the owners of the newspaper.

所以别假装曾经有过一段天使般美好的时光。

So let's not pretend there was some angelic wonderful time.

而且我要说，因为是我先提出来的，别假装曾经有过一个充满真实新闻的黄金时代之类的。

And and I'm saying to me because I was the one who brought it up, let's not pretend there was any super age of truthful journalism and all that.

你看美国历史上的革命时期，其糟糕程度一点也不亚于今天。

And I mean, you go to the revolutionary period in American history, and it looks every bit as bad as today.

对吧？

Right?

这实际上是个充满希望的信息。

That's a hopeful message, actually.

所以事情可能并没有看起来那么糟。

So things may not be as bad as they as they look.

我们不妨把它看作股市，新闻的真实性和可信度会有波动，有些时期比其他时期更高。

Well, let's look at it more like a stock market and that you have fluctuations in the truthfulness or or believability of the press, and there were periods where it was higher than other periods.

所谓点击诱饵时代的有趣之处在于，我认为这确实很糟糕，但它在我看来与早期的时代很相似。

The funny thing about the so called clickbait era, and I do think it's terrible, but I mean, it resembles earlier eras to me.

所以我总是拿它和我小时候相比，那时我觉得新闻业已经达到了有史以来最好的水平。

So I always compare it to when I was a kid growing up when I thought journalism was as good as it's ever gotten.

但它从来都不是完美的。

It was never perfect.

但这种现象在世界上其他许多国家的政府中却极为罕见。

But it's also something that you see very rarely in other governments around the world.

记者经常在许多国家被杀害是有原因的，因为他们报道了当局不希望被曝光的事情。

There's a reason that journalists are often killed regularly in a lot of countries, and it's because they report on things that the authorities do not want reported on.

我一直认为，这正是新闻业应该做的事情。

And I've always thought that that was what journalism should do.

但它必须是真实的。

But it's gotta be truthful.

否则，它就只是一种不同形式的宣传。

Otherwise, it's just a different kind of propaganda.

对吧？

Right?

我们能谈谈成吉思汗吗？

Can we talk about Genghis Khan?

当然可以。

Sure.

顺便问一下，是成吉思汗还是成吉思汗？

By the way, is it Genghis Khan or Genghis Khan?

不是成吉思汗。

It's not Genghis Khan.

要么是成吉思汗，要么是察合台汗。

It's either Genghis Khan or Chinggis Khan.

那我们就用成吉思汗吧。

So let's go with Genghis Khan.

我能确定的唯一一件事是，我会说

The only thing I'll be able to say with any certain last certain thing I'll say

关于它。

about it.

就像，我不知道，GIF 和 JIF 的区别。

It's like, I don't know, GIF versus JIF.

我不知道。

I don't know

你知不知道，这种错误的读法是怎么开始的。

if you know the I don't know how it ever got started the wrong way.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

首先，你关于成吉思汗的节目，对很多人来说是最喜欢的。

So first of all, your episodes on Jengis Khan for many people, are the favorite.

想到那些对整个人类文明产生如此深远影响的事件，真是令人着迷。

It's fascinating to think about events that had so much like, in their ripples had so much impact on so much of human civilization.

在你看来，他是个邪恶的人吗？

In your view, was he an evil man?

这引出了我们对邪恶的讨论。

This goes to our discussion of evil.

另一种说法是，我读到过，他在世界许多地方，比如蒙古，备受爱戴。

Another way to put it is I've read he's much loved in much part in many parts of the world, like Mongolia.

我也读到过一些观点，认为他在当时相当进步。

And I've also read arguments that say that he was quite a progressive for the time.

那么，你如何评价他呢？

So where do you put him?

他是一个进步者，还是一个邪恶的人类毁灭者？

Is he a progressive, or is he an evil destroyer of humans?

正如我常说的，我不是历史学家，这正是为什么我在那些硬核历史播客中试图引入这些子主题。

As I often say, I'm not a historian, which is why what I try to bring to the hardcore history podcasts are these subthemes.

所以每一集都有这些主题，我尽量低调处理，不让它们总是明显地摆在你面前。

So each show has and they're not I try to kind of soft pedal them, so they're not always, like, really right in front of your face.

在那一集中，这个低调处理的子主题涉及我们所说的‘历史纵火者’。

In that episode, the soft pedaling sub theme had to do with what we refer to as a historical arsonist.

这是因为一些历史学家持有一种观点，认为这种情况——大部分属于更早时期的现象。

And it's because some historians have taken the position that sometimes and most of this is earlier stuff.

历史学家现在很少这样做了，但这些是我成长过程中遇到的精彩问题，它们几乎融合了历史与哲学的交界。

Historians don't do this very much anymore, but these were the wonderful questions I grew up with that blend it's almost the intersection between history and philosophy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

其理念是，有时世界被官僚主义、腐败或停滞所压垮，必须有人、或某个群体、或某种力量出现，像森林大火一样清除所有枯木，从而使森林得以重生，社会得以向前发展。

And the idea was that sometimes the world has become so overwhelmed with bureaucracy or corruption or just stagnation that somebody has to come in or some group of people or some force has to come in and do the equivalent of a forest fire to clear out all the dead wood so that the forest itself can be rejuvenated and society can then move forward.

在过去的许多时期，历史学家们都将那些前来实施恐怖行为的人物描绘成为人类提供了一种近乎服务的角色，对吧？

And there's a lot of these periods where the historians of the past will portray these figures who come in and do horrific things as creating an almost service for mankind, right?

为一个比旧世界更美好的新世界奠定基础，这是一个反复出现的主题。

Creating the foundations for a new world that will be better than the old one, and it's a recurring theme.

因此，这正是关于蒙古可汗播客的潜主题，因为否则你并不需要我来讲述蒙古人的故事，但我将提出‘历史纵火者’这一元素。

And so this was the sub theme of the Khans podcast because otherwise you don't need me to tell you the story of the Mongols, but I'm going to bring up the historical arsonist element.

但这引出了一个问题：可汗是如何被描绘的，对吧？

But this gets to how the Khan has been portrayed, right?

如果你说，是的，他清除了枯木，带来了果实，那么这是一件积极的事情。

If you want to say, Oh, yes, he cleared out the deadwood and made fruit, well then it's a positive thing.

但如果你说，我的家人死于他放的那场森林大火中，你就不会这样看了。

If you say, My family was in the forest fire that he set, you're not going to see it that way.

成吉思汗被赞誉的许多正面事迹，对吧？

Much of what Genghis Khan is credited with on the upside, right?

比如宗教宽容。

So things like religious toleration.

你会说，蒙古人确实宗教宽容，这让他们几乎像自由派改革者一样。

And you'll say, Well, the Mongols were religiously tolerant, so this makes them almost like a liberal reformer kind of thing.

但这需要放在他们的帝国背景下来看，这与罗马人的观点非常相似：罗马人并不太在意当地人崇拜什么。

But this needs to be seen within the context of their empire, which was very much like the Roman viewpoint, which is the Romans didn't care a lot of time what your local people worshipped.

他们只想要稳定。

They wanted stability.

只要能维持稳定，让你缴税，又不需要军团介入，他们就无所谓。

And if that kept stability and kept you paying taxes and didn't require the legionaries to come in, then they didn't care.

对吧？

Right?

而且蒙古可汗们也是如此。

And and the Khans were the same way.

只要不扰乱他们的帝国、不给他们惹麻烦，他们根本不在乎你信什么。

Like, they don't care what you're practicing as long as it doesn't disrupt their empire and cause them trouble.

但我总是喜欢指出的是，没错，但可汗仍可以派代表来到你的城镇，认为你的女儿是个美丽的女子，想把她纳入后宫，然后就把她带走。

But what I always like to point out is, yes, but the Khan could still come in with his representatives to your town, decide your daughter was a beautiful woman that they wanted in the Khan's concubine, and they would take them.

那么，这是一个多么开明的帝国呢？

So how liberal an empire is this?

对吧？

Right?

他们所获得的诸多赞誉，表面上看像是好人行为，但从另一个角度看，可能只是简单的控制手段。

So so many of the things that they get credit for is though they're some kind of nice guys may, in another way of looking at it, just be a simple mechanism of control.

对吧？

Right?

一种维持帝国稳定的方式。

A way to keep the empire stable.

他们这么做并不是出于好心。

They're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

他们认为这是……我特别喜欢这一点，因为蒙古人是我们现在所说的异教徒。

They have decided that this is the and I love because the Mongols were what we would call a pagan people now.

我喜欢这一点，我想我们当时称它为……我忘了那个词。

I love the fact that they I think we called it I forgot the term we used.

这与他们宗教上的投机有关。

It had to do with Like they were hedging their bets religiously.

对吧？

Right?

他们不知道哪个神才是对的。

They didn't know which god was the right one.

所以只要你们都在为可汗的健康祈祷，我们就最大限度地确保无论哪位神明，都能收到这个信息。

So as long as you're all praying for the health of the Khan, we're maximizing the chances that whoever the gods are, they get the message.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为它被描绘成某种自由帝国的样子。

So I think it's been portrayed as something like a liberal empire.

蒙古普世性的理念更多是关于征服世界。

And the idea of Mongol universality is is more about conquering the world.

这就像说，我们会通过征服世界来带来稳定。

And it's like saying, you know, we're gonna bring stability to the world by conquering it.

那如果这是希特勒呢？

Well, what if that's Hitler?

对吧？

Right?

他也可以提出同样的论点。

He could make the same case.

或者希特勒其实并不是那样的世界征服者，因为他不会试图让所有民族都平等。

Or Hitler wasn't really the world conqueror like that because he wouldn't have been he wouldn't have been trying to make it equal for all peoples.

但我的意思是，如果他们的动机并不是一种积极的道德立场，那么这种正面的道德色彩就会被削弱，而蒙古人自己也并不这么看待。

But my point being that it kind of takes the positive moral slant out of it if their motivation wasn't a positive moral slant to the motivate and and the Mongols didn't see it that way.

我认为人们对它的描述方式就像射出一支箭，然后在箭着落的地方画上靶心。

I think the way that it's portrayed is like and I always like to use this analogy, but it's like shooting an arrow and painting a bull's eye around it afterwards.

对吧？

Right?

我们该如何为他们辩护，让他们看起来更好呢？但事实上，他们自己可能根本不是这么想的，而且，我们并没有真正的蒙古人视角。

How how do we how do we justify and make them look good in a way that they themselves probably and, listen, we don't have the Mongol point of view per se.

我的意思是，有一本叫《蒙古秘史》的书，还有后来由波斯和中国史官记录下来的蒙古统治者留下的文献。

I mean, there's something called the secret history of the Mongols, there's things written down by Mongolian overlords through people like Persian and Chinese scribes later.

我们没有他们的视角，但显然这并不像是一次试图创造一个让所有人都过上比以前更好生活的美好愿景。

We don't have their point of view, but it sure doesn't look like this was an attempt to create some wonderful place where everybody was living a better life than they were before.

我认为这是后人给它涂上的美好粉饰。

I think that's later people putting a nice rosy spin on it.

但其中确实有一方面。

So but there's an aspect to it.

也许你可以纠正我，因为我是在以自己的想法投射：要征服如此广袤的土地，意识形态是逐渐形成的。

Maybe you can correct me because I'm projecting sort of my idea of what it would take to to to conquer so much land is the ideology is emergent.

如果我要猜测的话，蒙古人最初是一群极为出色的战士，他们崇尚战斗技巧的卓越，甚至不是单纯为了杀戮，而是为了战争本身的实践。

So if I were to guess, the Mongols started out as exceptionally as warriors who valued excellence in skill of killing, not even killing, but, like, the the the actual practice of war.

你可以从小规模开始，然后不断扩张、扩张、再扩张。

And you can start out small, and you can grow and grow and grow.

为了维持对征服土地的稳定统治，你们发展出了一套理念，正如你所说，用来建立控制，但这种理念是逐渐形成的。

And then in order to maintain the stability of the things over which of the conquered lands, you developed a set of ideas with which you can, like you said, establish control, but it was emergent.

蒙古人最核心的初始理念似乎只是成为卓越的战士。

And it seems like the core first principle idea of the Mongols is just to be excellent warriors.

这对我来说，感觉像是最初的起点。

That felt to that felt to me like the starting point.

它并不是某种意识形态。

It wasn't some ideology.

像希特勒和斯大林那样，希特勒背后有一种与战争本身无关的意识形态。

Like, with Hitler and Stalin, with Hitler, the there was an ideology that didn't have anything to do with with war underneath it.

这更多是关于征服。

It was more about conquering.

我觉得蒙古人一开始更加自然地发展起来。

It feels like the Mongols started out more organically, I would say.

这种现象是自发产生的，他们就像美洲原住民中的科曼奇人一样，就像乔·罗根目前痴迷的那些不同战士部落，正是这些让我进一步去研究它。

It's like this phenomenon started emergently, and they were just like, similar to the Native Americans with the the Comanches, like the different warrior tribes that Joe Rogan's currently obsessed with that that led led me to look into it more.

他们似乎一开始只是重视战斗的技能，无论他们拥有什么样的战争工具——虽然这些工具相当原始，但他们致力于成为最优秀的战士，把战争变成一门科学。

They they seem to just start out just valuing the skill of fighting, whatever the tools of war they had, which were pretty primitive, but just to be the best warriors they could possibly be, make a science out of it.

你觉得一开始背后根本没有意识形态，这想法很疯狂吗？

Is that is that crazy to think that there was no ideology behind it in the beginning?

我得稍微退一步说。

I'm gonna back up a second.

我想起了关于罗马人的那句话：他们创造了一片废墟，却称之为和平。

I'm reminded of the line said about the Romans that they create a wasteland and call it peace.

这太惊人了。

That is Wow.