第272期 - 布雷特·约翰逊：美国头号网络通缉犯

其他方式永远不足以用健康的方式表达爱意。总是要做得过头，通常就是买或者偷些昂贵玩意。

Everything else was never enough to show love in some sort of healthy way. Always had to go overboard, and typically, was buying some or stealing some sort of expensive crap.

所以那就是...那就是你表达爱的方式就是买贵重礼物。

So that that was that was the thing that was the way you show love is by buying expensive gifts.

或者做得太过火了。最初和苏珊在一起时，我说别担心工作的事，我来搞定。嗯。你只管专心上学就好。她是音乐专业的。

Or something overboard. Back then with with Susan initially, it was don't worry about working, I got it. Mhmm. You just worry about going to school. She was a music major.

我当时就说，你只管专心上学。所以别操心做饭打扫，我来负责。我来。所以我不仅是个过度付出的家伙，还有点控制狂，对吧？

I was like, you just worry about going to school. So don't worry about cooking and cleaning, I got it. I got it. So not only was I this this guy that was going overboard, but kind of a control freak too. Right?

现在都由我来扛。我来。我来。结果我每周工作六十小时，修十八个学分的课，还要做饭打扫，总得有取舍。最后我辞掉了工作。

So now I got it. I got it. I got it. So here I am, you know, sixty hour a week job, eighteen hour class load, cooking, cleaning, something had to give. I quit the job.

我撑不下去了。辞掉工作后重操旧业搞诈骗，同时还得瞒着她。最开始是电话营销诈骗。我的第一份工作是在公墓当电话销售卖墓地。后来那份工作结束，转去为Shriners Circle慈善组织工作，就是Shriners儿童医院。

I couldn't do it. Quit the job and start back in fraud and trying to hide that from her at the same time. So it was initially telemarketing fraud. Started I was working at the first job I had was a telemarketer at a cemetery, selling grave sites. And then that ended, went over to work for the Shriners Circle, Shriners Hospital.

有家第三方公司承包所有电话营销业务，赚得盆满钵满。那工作结束后，他们转向与Kiwanis俱乐部合作，向食品银行兜售食品篮等商品。我偷走了电话名单，自己搞了个Kiwanis俱乐部，开展电话营销，每周两次外出收支票。结果有次去收支票敲门时，发现我联系过的对象里有个执法人员。

And there was a third party company that was doing all the telemarketing, made really good money doing that. That job ended and then they pivoted over to working with Kiwanis Clubs, selling food baskets to the food banks and everything. So I stole the the phone list and started at my own Kiwanis Club and would do the telemarketing, go out twice a week and pick up checks. Well, what happened was is I'm going out picking up checks, go knock on a door. Turns out one of the persons that I had called was a law enforcement officer.

他质问：你是谁？嗯。我说我是Kiwanis俱乐部的。他直接拆穿：不，你不是。

So he was like, who are you? Mhmm. I'm like, I'm with the Kiwanis Club. He's like, no. You're not.

于是我被捕了，因欺诈盗窃在县监狱蹲了三个月。出狱后，我们不得不从列克星敦搬回哈泽德，和苏珊父母同住。他们有台惠普台式电脑，我开始上网摸索，发现了eBay，但当时真不知道如何在eBay赚钱。差不多同时，我在网上进行低级别诈骗——这是我第一次公开谈及这事——用空头支票支付。

So got arrested, spent three months in a county jail for theft by deception. Got out, and we had to move from from Lexington back to Hazard and live with Susan's parents. They had gotten a desktop computer, HP, And I started surfing around online, found eBay and didn't really know how to make money on eBay. About the same time, I'm committing low level frauds online. I don't really talk about that in the the first time I've really talked about that, but I would pay for it with bad checks.

所以更多人不再使用像eBay这样的平台

So So so more person so not using a platform like eBay more

我会在eBay上找那些卖音响之类的人，用空头支票付款，并指望他们因为跨州且金额太小而不会追讨。就这样我攒够了钱搬回列克星敦。到列克星敦后，我还在搞这些eBay骗局，但总觉得应该有更好的赚钱方式。只是当时真的不知道该怎么办。

I I would find somebody that had like a stereo system on eBay, something like that, and I'd pay for it with bad check and would rely on them not to chase me because they were out of state at that point and the dollar amounts were very low. So got the money to move to finally did those schemes enough to get the money to move back to Lexington. I got to Lexington and by this point, I'm I'm doing this, like I said, these schemes on eBay and I'm like, there's gotta be a better way to make money on eBay. Gotta be. So didn't really know how.

有天晚上我看比尔·莱利的《内幕报道》，他们在介绍豆豆娃。当时正在讲一款叫'皇家蓝象花生'的玩偶，在eBay上卖1500美元。我坐在那儿想：妈的，我得搞到一个'花生'。最初我觉得肯塔基州的贺曼店里肯定能找到，于是第二天翘课跑遍了所有贺曼商店。

One night I'm watching Inside Edition with Bill Riley and they're profiling Beanie Babies. So I'm sitting there watching and the one they're profiling is this one called Peanut the Royal Blue Elephant selling for $1,500 on eBay. I'm sitting there going like, shit, I need to find me a peanut. So my initial thought was, well, there's gotta be one in one of these Hallmark stores in Kentucky someplace. So I skipped class the next day, went out around all the Hallmark stores looking for peanut.

别傻了，那玩意儿在eBay上值1500呢。折腾几小时后发现只有8美元的灰色豆豆象。我买了一只，回家路上在克罗格超市买了包蓝色染料，结果染色过程简直是场噩梦。

No idiot. He's on eBay for fifteen hundred dollars. So after a few hours of that, I'm like, turns out they had little gray beanie baby elephants for $8. Picked up one of those for $8, stopped by Kroger on the way home, picked up a pack of blue Rit dye, went home, tried to dye the little guy. So that was a nightmare.

后来发现它们是聚酯纤维做的。从染缸捞出来时像得了疥癣似的。我边染边想：这招根本行不通。

Turns out they're made out of polyester. Get them out of the bath. Looks like they've got the mange. And what happens is so I I'm trying to dye the damn thing. I'm like, well, that's not gonna work.

完全行不通。于是我在网上找了张真品照片挂到eBay，打算谎称这就是我的货，之后可以说运输途中损坏了。结果真有位女士信以为真。

That's just not gonna work. So I got online, found a picture of a real one, posted it on eBay. And I was like, well, what I can do is I can claim that's the one I've got and then maybe claim that it got messed up in the mail and work out like that. So posted a picture of a real one online. Woman thought I had the real thing.

她中标后，我立刻启动社交工程——我不想被动防守，要让她措手不及。所以她刚拍下我就发了消息。

She wins the bid. That social engineering kicks in immediately. I didn't want to I didn't want to be on the defensive. I wanted to put her on the defensive. So as soon as she wins the bid, I send her a message.

嘿，我们之前没做过生意。我甚至不确定能否信任你。我需要你这样做来保护我们双方：去美国邮政局，买两张总计1500美元的邮政汇票寄给我，由政府发行的。这样我们都有保障。

Hey. We've not done any business before. I don't even know if I can trust you. What I need you to do, protects us both, go down the US Postal Service, get two money orders totaling $1,500, send them to me, issued by the US government. That way we're both protected.

我一收到汇票就会把你的动物寄给你。她信了这话，根本没问任何问题。她相信了，把汇票寄给了我。

Soon as I get the money orders, I'll send you your animal. She believed that. Didn't ask any questions at all. She believed that. Sent me the money orders.

我把汇票兑现了。把那个生物寄给她后，立刻接到电话。'我没订这个。'我的回应是：'女士，你订的是蓝色大象。我给你寄的是蓝色鱼象。'

I cashed them out. Sent her the creature, immediately got a phone call. I didn't order this. My response, lady, you ordered a blue elephant. I sent you a blue fish elephant.

她气坏了，不停地打电话。我发现——这其实是网络犯罪的第一课，包括我在内大多数罪犯都明白：只要把受害者拖得够久，不断搪塞他们。很多人会失去耐心，举手投降，直接放弃。你就再也不会听到他们的消息。

And she got pissed and she kept calling. What I found out, and that's the fur really the first lesson of cybercrime that most of these criminals, including self, learns. If you delay a victim long enough, just keep putting them off. A lot of them, they get they get exasperated, throw their hands in the air, walk away. You don't hear from them.

直到今天，他们中没有一个人向执法部门投诉。他们都认栽了。

And none of them, to this day, none of them complain to law enforcement. They eat it.

所以这是...这是一种混合因素，一方面你被这个过程耗尽了精力，放弃更容易。另一方面几乎是出于羞耻感。所以这里存在...

So it's it's a it's a mixture of, like, you're exhausted by the process, so it's just easier to walk away. And second, almost like an embarrassment. So there's there's a

有一大堆原因。明白吗？当然有精疲力尽的因素，还有羞耻感。如果你现在分析，这种羞耻感从何而来？

whole slew of reasons. Alright? There's there's exhaustion, certainly. There's the embarrassment. So if you figure out if you look at it today, where does the embarrassment come from?

媒体和家属都热衷于指责受害者——你为什么要点击那个链接？为什么要给陌生人转账？诸如此类。所以当时就是这种情况。

Well, the media, family members, were all very good about blaming the victim for crimes. Why would you click on the link? Why would you send money to somebody you don't know? Blah blah blah. So you've got that that's going on.

还有该向谁投诉的问题？那时候根本不知道。是找当地警方吗？因为她在另一个州。那到底该找哪个警局报案？

You've got the issue of who do you complain to? Back then, you didn't know. Do you complain to local police? Because she's in another state. So which local police do you complain to?

找联邦调查局？涉案金额又达不到联邦立案标准。联邦会让你找地方警局，地方警局又会推诿说案发地在肯塔基州。

Do you complain to the feds? Well, it's not the dollar amounts aren't high enough to complain to feds. Feds are gonna tell you to go local. Local's gonna tell you, hey. It happened in Kentucky.

去肯塔基报案，他们又会说见鬼了你人在外地，得亲自过来。这就是整个管辖权扯皮的问题。

Complain to them. Kentucky's gonna tell you, well, shit. You're over there. I we need you to come in. So there's this this whole issue, the jurisdiction of the blame factor, everything else.

所以我那次作案不仅逍遥法外，还大胆用了真名。后来手法越来越娴熟，学会了隐藏身份之类的手段。开始卖盗版软件，从世嘉土星和PS1盗版盘起步——

So I got away with that crime and did it under my own name at that point, kept going and got better at it. Started to understand how to hide identities, things like that. Started selling pirated software. Pirated software led into installing mod chips. It was for the initial pirated software was a Sega Saturn PlayStation one.

这些主机需要改装芯片才能读盗版碟，于是我开始销售安装改机芯片。后来发展到给有线电视机顶盒装芯片看付费节目，接着又破解RCA卫星电视的DSS收视卡。就是那种18英寸卫星天线，把卡拔出来破解后就能看所有频道。正说到这儿...能暂停一下吗？

Well, you had to have a mod chip in those to play the pirated discs, so I started selling and installing mod chips. That led into installing mod chips in the cable television boxes so you could watch all the pay per view, which in turn led into programming satellite DSS cards. Those 18 inch RCA satellite systems, pull the card out of it, program it, turns on all the channels. It started doing that. Can can we just pause?

嗯。这很有创业精神啊。从技术上讲，你不断在违法犯禁。但打破陈规正是第一性原理的体现——当然也有合法途径实现创新。

Mhmm. That is very entrepreneurial. So just technically so there's laws and rules that you're breaking nonstop. So there's also legitimate ways of doing that, which is break the rules of the conventions of the past. That's the first principles thing.

这就是埃隆·马斯克这类人一直在做的事。没错，这需要胆识和才华。但当行为确实越界时——有时法律确实过时了——关键在于作为人类，你必须权衡自己造成的伦理伤害。

That's what Elon Musk and his ilk do all the time. Right. That is guts and brilliance. But when it's crossing the lines of the law actually, sometimes the law is outdated. The the thing is, as a human being, you have to then compute the ethical damage you're doing.

从伦理角度考量，你给他人带来的伤害。本质上你正在打破的是：你以某种方式增加了世间的苦难，并为此找借口。但作为一名工程师，这种想法确实很有胆识。沃兹尼亚克和史蒂夫·乔布斯就是这么思考的。确实如此。

Like, ethically, the damage you're doing about other human beings. That is fundamentally the thing that you're breaking is you're you're adding to the suffering in the world in in one way way or another, and you're justifying it. But in terms of me sort of as an engineer, that is some gutsy thinking. That's how Woz and Steve Jobs thought. Sure.

这就是创新。或许你可以反思下自己的思维过程——我喜欢你提到惠普的这段记忆。对你来说这完全是新领域，计算机只是又一个未知领域。你是如何解开这些谜题的？

It that's that's innovation. And maybe just think your if you can introspect your thinking process here, this is a new I like how you remember this in HP. Like, what this is a totally new thing to you. Computers is a is a is yet another domain. How are you figuring these puzzles out?

推测主要是独自完成的？独自思考这些问题的时候。

Presumably mostly alone? Alone. When you were thinking through these problems.

独自。

Alone.

这个问题可能有点奇怪，但...你的思维过程是怎样的？你解决这些问题的思路是什么？

Is there this is a strange question to ask, but, you know, what what is your thinking process? What is your approach to solving these problems?

这个思路就是...你先尝试做某事，搞砸了，然后复盘：该怎么补救？于是你修正那个环节。再次尝试时可能进展稍远些，然后又搞砸了。就这样循环。

So so the approach is is is you do something and you fuck it up, and you're like you think back, okay. How do I fix that? So you you fix that aspect. You commit the crime again, and it goes a little bit further, and it screws up. Okay.

我该怎么解决？问题出在哪里？我该怎么修复

How do I fix that? What's the issue on that? How do I fix

那个？所以并没有深层次的设计思考，就像后来，它就变成了那样。

that? So there's not a deep design thinking like like Later on, it becomes that.

一旦你一旦你一旦你奠定了这些骗局运作方式的基础，好吧，它就变成了那样。你可以将其应用到网络犯罪整体的其他方面。明白吗？但最初，基本上就是试错。你知道，你遇到了问题。

Once once you once you lay that groundwork of the way these schemes are working, alright, it becomes that. And you can apply that to other things in in cybercrime as a whole. Alright? But initially, it's it's basically trial and error. You know, you've got a problem.

你如何解决那个问题？好吧？那么我以我的名义犯下这些罪行，我该怎么解决？嗯，我们在影子团伙上教授的首要原则之一就是：所有犯罪都应从身份盗窃开始。

How do you solve that problem? Alright? So how do I I'm committing these crimes under my name. How do I solve that? Well, one of the first principles that we started to teach on shadow crew is all crimes should begin with identity theft.

那是

That's

其中之一

one of

至今许多人仍未真正理解的主要首要原则之一。明白吗？如果我能用你的名义犯罪，为什么要用我的名义？所以这是一个重要的缓冲，需要通过试错才能达到那个境界，开始理解犯罪就该这么运作——如果你是罪犯的话。明白吗？

the main first principles that a lot of people to this day still don't really get. Alright? Why would I commit a crime under my name if I can do it under your name? So that's that's one of the big buffers and that takes trial and error to get to that point where you start to understand that's the way crime should operate if you're a criminal. Alright?

但对我来说，这其实是一个试错的过程。那种思维方式从小就根深蒂固，你会不断寻找非传统的方式绕过或解决各种问题。

But with me, it was I mean, it's it's trial and error. It's it's that childhood where that mindset is kind of ingrained in you, where you're you're looking for ways, non let's say nontraditional ways of getting around things or getting through things.

我稍后可能会问的一个问题是：你做的事情有个独特之处，就是很长时间都没被抓到。我们会讨论原因。有趣的是，所有犯罪要想成功，或许都该从身份盗窃开始。

I mean, one of the questions I'll probably ask this later is there's also a unique aspect to the outcome of what you were doing, which is you weren't you know, you didn't get caught for a very long time. Right. We'll we'll talk about why that is. And the thing is, it's so interesting. All all crime probably should to be effective, should start with identity theft.

没错。

Right.

我喜欢身份盗窃这个概念，因为它可以有很多种形式。对的。所以就有了暗影团。

I like that identity theft because identity theft can take so many forms. Right. Right. So yes. So Shadow Crew.

我们最初是出于热爱开始的。现在我们在网上搞这些勾当。我在编程这些卫星DSS卡，有趣的是直到今天你还能看到，某些事件会催生犯罪产业。明白吗？

So What's so as we're you started with love. Started with love. So now we're we're we're, you know, doing these schemes online. I'm selling I'm selling to these I'm programming these satellite DSS cards, and you one of the interesting things, and you still see that to this day, is something will happen that will create an industry for criminals. Alright?

当时的情况是：加拿大法官在我搞这些卫星卡的同时裁决，认为本国公民盗用这些信号是合法的。他的理由是既然RCA没在加拿大销售这套系统，公民就可以盗用。

So what happened is Canada, Canadian judge rules about the same time that I'm doing these satellite satellite cards. Canadian judge comes out and says, hey. It's legal for my citizens to pirate those signals. And his reasoning was is since RCA doesn't sell the systems up here, my citizens can pirate it. Okay.

结果一夜之间，就在PayPal刚上线那会儿，美国突然冒出个小作坊产业。你去百思买花100美元买套系统，在停车场拆开包装，取出主机扔掉，只留卡片，编程后寄到加拿大，每张卖500美元。就这么干起来了，生意相当红火。

So what happens is overnight, about the same time PayPal comes into play. So PayPal's coming right online at about the same time. Overnight, little cottage industry pops up in The United States. You go down to Best Buy, buy the system for a $100, take it out in the parking lot, open system up, pull it open box up, pull the system out, pull the card out, throw the system away, program the card, ship its ass to Canada, $500 a pop, started doing that. Business is good.

要知道，我每周能赚34,000美元。我就想，嗯，这不错。订单多到接不过来，然后很快意识到：我干嘛要处理这些订单？反正客户都在加拿大。

Making, you know, $34,000 a week doing that. I'm like, yeah. That's good. I have so many orders I can't fill all the orders and quickly think to myself, why do I need to fill any of them? They're in Canada.

我在美国这边。他们能找谁投诉呢？因为我发现人们根本不会投诉。懂吗？他们不会向任何人投诉的。

I'm down here. You know, who are they going to complain to? Because I already found out people don't complain. Alright? They're not going to complain to anybody.

于是我开始

So I start

尤其是在加拿大。特别是在加拿大。

Especially in Canada. Especially in Canada.

我让他们直接打钱。这时PayPal首次登场。让我惊讶的是所有人都在用PayPal，甚至不用你开口问。他们直接说'能用PayPal付款吗'。

And I'm I'm I'm having them send money. That's when PayPal's first into play. And it amazes me that everybody is using PayPal. It's like, you don't even have to really ask. They're like, can we pay by yeah.

你们整天都能用PayPal付款。而PayPal当时根本不懂风控。就这样，钱都打到PayPal，我再提现到本人名下的银行账户。后来我有点怕，因为那时每周还有4到6千美元进账。

You can pay all day long by PayPal. And PayPal had no clue what they were doing with security. So it's like, okay. So they're sending money to PayPal. I'm having the PayPal cashed out to to bank accounts in my name at that point, and I get scared because by that point, I'm still in 4 to $6,000 a week.

我就想迟早有人会查洗钱。于是琢磨着：最好的办法就是搞张假驾照，用假身份开银行账户，在ATM取现。但问题来了——完全不知道去哪弄假证件。

And I'm like, somebody's gonna be looking at money laundering. So get into my head, I'm like, best thing that I can do is get a fake driver's license, open up a bank account using that driver's license, cash out at the ATM. Good. No idea where to get a fake ID. Not a clue.

于是我上网四处寻找，花了几周时间搜寻，以为找到了合适人选。那人的网名叫假证先生。我以为找对人了，给他转了200美元，发了我的照片。结果这家伙骗了我。

So I get online, looked around, spent a couple weeks looking around, thought I found a guy. He went by the screen name of fake ID man. Thought I found a guy, sent him $200, sent him my picture. Dude rips me off.

什么？哦，见鬼，

Like, what Oh, the hell,

我被耍了。他弄了个小网站，上面还有评价，我当时觉得，哦，这都很正规。他正在建立我之前提到的那种信任。结果呢，我气坏了。而且根本没有处理犯罪或网络犯罪相关事务的网站。

I got played. He had a he had a little website set up with reviews, and I'm like, oh, it's all legitimate. He's building that trust that I talked about. So the end result, I got pissed. And there was no site that dealt with anything criminal or cybercrime related.

唯一可行的渠道是IRC聊天室，互联网中继聊天。我敢肯定你也用过。就是那种滚动聊天板，你根本不知道在和谁说话。里面大多数人满嘴胡话。

The only real avenue you had was an IRC chat session, Internet Relay Chat. And that I'm sure you've been on that. This it's it's this rolling chat board. You don't know who the hell you're talking to. Most of them are full of shit.

你谁都不能信，却还得在那儿谈生意。所以当有人声称有产品或服务时，他们真有货吗？真能用吗？还是只想骗你钱？因为在那些频道里，人人都是罪犯。

You can't trust anybody, and you're sitting there trying to conduct business. So, you know, if somebody claims they've got a product or service, do they have it? Does it work? Are they just gonna rip you off? Because in those channels, everyone's a criminal.

嗯。我继续寻找，偶然发现一个叫'假证图书馆'的网站。这个网站只做假文凭和证书生意，就是那种学位工厂的勾当。但他们有个论坛，根本没人用。

Mhmm. I kept looking around, and I've happened upon a website called Counterfeit Library. And Counterfeit Library only dealt with counterfeit degrees and certificates. As on with degree meal type stuff. But they had a forum, and no one was using the forum.

于是我开始每天在论坛上发牢骚。嗯。我被骗了，不知道该怎么办，巴拉巴拉说个不停。差不多同时，另外两个家伙出现了。一个叫X先生，来自洛杉矶。

So I basically get on there and bitch every day. Mhmm. I got ripped off, don't know what to do, bam, bam, bam, bam. About the same time I started doing that, two other guys show up. One's named mister x, he's out of Los Angeles.

另一个家伙叫别西卜，来自萨斯喀彻温省的穆斯乔，我们成了哥们儿。就这样，我抱怨了几周，他们回应了几周。别西卜在ICQ上联系我，发了条消息说——那时候我用'咕噜'这个网名，叫'咕噜乐'——他说：'咕噜，我能给你做张假驾照。'

The other guy's named Beelzebub, he's out of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, and we all become buddies. So, you know, a few weeks of me bitching, a few weeks of them responding. Beelzebub gets me on ICQ and he sends me a message. He's like, I went by the screen name of Gollum at that point, Gollum Fun. And he's like, Gollum, I can make you a fake driver's license.

我当时就说：'妈的，那你倒是做啊。'他说：'不过我得收钱。'我说：'行啊，你收呗。'他回：'我认真的。'我怼回去：'不，你不敢。'

And I was like, well, motherfucker do it. And he's like, well, I'm gonna charge you for it. I'm like, yeah, you are. And he's like, I am. I was like, No, you're not.

他说：'听着兄弟，干这行要想成功就得信任别人，否则准完蛋。这样吧，我收你200美元，但保证把驾照寄给你。'那时候我已经混进了假证论坛，我们整天发邮件聊天，我就答应了：'行，给你转200。'

He's like, Look man, he said, This business, if you're going to do this, you have to trust people or you're going to fail. He said, So I'm going to charge you $200 but I'm going to send you a driver's license. Well, by this point, I'm friends with the people who own counterfeit library. We're emailing, chatting, everything else, and I tell him, I'm like, okay. I'm going to send you $200.

我心想：'等你骗我钱，就让论坛封杀你，省得再纠缠。'他回了句：'赌一把？'我说：'成交。'转完钱发了照片，两周后真收到张驾照。

That way when you rip me off, I'll have them ban you and I don't have to deal with you anymore. And he's like, bet. I'm like, okay. So I sent him $200, sent him my picture. Two weeks later, I get a driver's license.

驾照名字是俄亥俄州的史蒂文·施韦基。真有其人，至今还在ADP工资部门上班——那家伙确实在ADP工作。拿到驾照时，那简直是我见过最精美的玩意儿。毕竟第一次见假证，觉得牛逼坏了。

Named Steven Schwecky out of Ohio. And real guy, worked at ADP payroll to this day, works at ADP, is where the guy works. Got the driver's license, and to me at that point in time, it was the prettiest thing that I'd ever seen. You know, I'd never seen a fake ID before. I thought it was great.

现在回想起来才发现...

Turns out, you know, looking back, was like, so

这确实是伪造身份的重要第一步啊。非常关键。非常关键。

That is kind of a a strong first step in creating a fake identity. Very strong. Very strong.

所以这个

So this

就像加斯科刚才说的，要想在这行成功，必须有你信任的人。他说的对吗？

So that was like Gasko just on the the point he made that if you're gonna be successful in this, you should have people you trust. Is he right on that?

哦，他绝对正确。他完全正确。

Oh, he's absolutely right. He's absolutely right.

所以你必须像黑帮一样。你必须有一个核心圈子

So you have to have this is like mob. You have to You have to have an inner circle

你信任的人。你知道，我肯定你之前听我说过。成功的网络犯罪。明白吗？作为罪犯要在网上成功，有三个必要条件。

that you trust. You know, I'm sure you've probably heard me say this before. Successful cyber crime. Alright? There are three necessities to be successful online if you're a criminal.

三个必要条件是收集数据、实施犯罪，然后套现。这三个条件必须协同运作。如果不行，犯罪就会失败。问题是，这是个巨大的问题，一个人无法完成这三件事。你知道，有专门收集数据的人。

Three necessities are gathering data, committing the crime, and then cashing it out. All three of those necessities have to work in conjunction. If they don't, the crime fails. The problem, and it's a huge problem, is that one guy can't do all three things. You know, you've got the people who gather the data.

基本上，就是那些出售PII信息、信用卡登录凭证、数据工具的一般商店销售员。他们总是卖伪造的电话号码或RDP之类的。很多时候这些人不知道怎么实施犯罪，更不知道如何洗钱变现。所以要么因为技能水平，要么因为地理位置，限制了个人的能力范围。明白吗？

Basically, the general store salespeople who sell PII, credit card logins, data tools. They always sell the spoofed phone numbers or the RDPs, stuff like that. A lot of the times those people don't know how to commit the crime And those people certainly don't know how to launder the money out, put cash in pocket. So you've got either because of a skill level, sometimes a geographic location, limits what that individual can do. Alright?

所以你必须依赖那些在你所不擅长的领域里很在行的人，才能让犯罪成功。这意味着你必须信任那些人。那么暗影团队发生了什么？好的。伪造图书馆就是开端。

So you have to rely on people who are good in areas where you are not in order for that crime to succeed. And that means you have to trust those people. So what happens with shadow crew? Alright. So counterfeit library is the start.

明白吗？伪造图书馆逐渐演变成暗影团队。就在转变前夕，有个叫德米特里·戈卢博夫的乌克兰人。那时他还是个发垃圾邮件的。他看到我们在伪造图书馆的所作所为，他很喜欢。

Alright? Counterfeit Library transitions over to Shadow Crew. Right before that transition, there's a Ukrainian guy by the name of Dmitry Golubov. He was a spammer at that point in time. He saw what we were doing with with Counterfeit Library and he liked it.

他拿到了所有这些信用卡信息，这孩子——我是说，他还是个孩子。这孩子有个想法，他在想人们会不会购买被盗的信用卡信息。

He was getting all these credit card details, and this kid I mean, he's a kid. This kid has an idea, and his idea was, I wonder if people would buy stolen credit card details.

乌克兰人挺厉害的嘛 所以是俄罗斯人

That's pretty good Ukrainian So Russian

他拿起电话打给他的伙伴们。他们又联系了更多人。他们在敖德萨开了个线下会议。150名网络罪犯到场，共同启动了这个计划。

he picks up the phone. He calls his buddies. They call their buddies. They have a physical conference in Odessa. 150 of these cyber criminals show up, and they launch this idea.

他们推出了一个叫卡特星球的网站，这就是现代信用卡盗窃的起源。记得我提到网络犯罪的三个必要条件吗？德米特里拥有全世界最多的信用卡数据，他还和其他乌克兰人合作，他们也掌握大量数据。问题是东欧那边诈骗太猖獗，所有卡都被停用了。

This launches a website called Carter Planet, which is the genesis of all modern credit card theft as we know it. Alright? And so remember I mentioned those three necessities of cybercrime. Dmitry had all the credit data in the world, and he partnered with all these other Ukrainians who had all this data as well. The problem was that so much fraud had been committed on that Eastern Side of Europe that every card had been shut down.

即使你是合法持卡人想套现，那时也办不到了。再说那三个必要条件：收集数据、实施犯罪、套现。德米特里掌握了数据，他们能实施犯罪，却无法把钱装进口袋。

Even if you were a legitimate cardholder and tried to cash it out, you weren't doing it at that point. So again, those three necessities, gathering data, committing crime, cashing out. Dmitry had the data. They could commit the crime. They could not put cash in pocket.

当时我们在运营一个伪造证件图书馆。有一天我收到这条消息，或者说不是消息，有一天脚本突然出现了。他直接在公共论坛发帖说：嘿，我有信用卡数据。给我个地址。

So we were running counterfeit library. One day I get this message or not a message, one day script shows up. And he posts just on the general forum. He posts, hey, I've got credit card data. Give me an address.

给我个一次性电话号码。等五个工作日。想订什么就订什么。我们从未见过这种操作。我们原本是做PayPal诈骗和eBay诈骗的，还有假驾照。

Give me a burner phone number. Wait five business days. Order whatever you want to. We had never seen anything like that. We were a PayPal fraud and eBay fraud sign is what we were, and fake driver's licenses.

那时候我们大概有两三千名会员。会员们的反应都是：这不可能是真的。你肯定是执法人员。这肯定是想引我们上钩好抓人。让我稍微回溯一下。

So then and we had I guess we had two, three thousand members at that point. So the response from the members was that can't be real. You've got to be law enforcement. It's got to be in they're trying to get us arrested and everything else. What let me backtrack a little bit.

我拿到的那张驾照，别西卜有个主意。他想做假驾照生意。X先生则想卖社保卡。他能做出以假乱真的社保卡。而我？我根本没那技术。

So the driver's license that I'd got, Beelzebub had an idea. What he wanted to do is he wanted to sell driver's licenses. Mister x wanted to sell Social Security cards. He made a very passable Social Security card. Me, I didn't I had no skill level on that.

我只懂PayPal和eBay诈骗。于是别西卜就说：这样，你来当审核员。这样所有上架的产品服务都得先寄给你过目。你能掌握整个产业链。而且因为你不参与销售，你的评测会更有公信力。

I knew PayPal fraud and eBay fraud. So Beelzebub was like, tell you what, you be the reviewer. That way you get every product or service that comes in, they'll have to send it to you or let you have access to it. You can learn the entire game. And because you're not selling anything, it gives you legitimacy on the reviews.

明白吗？于是我开始当审核员，成了伪造证件图书馆唯一的审核员。接下来一年里，别西卜暴露了他种大麻的老本行——因为卖假驾照根本赚不到钱。X先生干了一年半就被抓了，用司机信用卡（不是普通信用卡）在赌场套现时出事了。

Alright? So I started out as a reviewer, the only reviewer on Counterfeit Library. So over the next year, Beelzebub turns out he was a pot grower. He goes back to growing pot because he wasn't making shit selling driver's licenses. Mister x, about a year and a half in, he gets arrested, cashing out driver's credit card not credit cards, cashing out to to casinos doing some shit with that.

最后就剩我还在运营，成了行业顶端。发展到后来，只要我审核通过谁，谁就能赚大钱。要是我不通过，就别想在这行混。所以当脚本带着他的提案出现时，我作为网站唯一审核员...

So I'm the only guy left standing, and I'm at the top of the heap. So and it becomes this thing where if I review somebody, they make a lot of money. If I don't, you don't do business here. So script shows up saying he's got this. I'm the only reviewer on-site.

人们以为他是执法人员。第一周就这样过去了。过了一阵子，我就想，好吧，我得做点什么。我特别害怕，老兄，因为我总觉得他可能是执法人员。

People think he's law enforcement. First week, goes like that. After a while, I'm like, okay. I gotta do something. And I'm scared, man, because I'm like, he may be law enforcement.

于是我在ICQ上联系他，我说：'嘿，你得接受审核。'他问：'这特么是什么鬼？'我就解释给他听。结果他说：'你来审核我。'

So I get him on ICQ, and I'm like, hey. You have to be reviewed. He's like, what the hell is that? So I tell him what it is. He's like, you review me.

我说：'没错，正是这个意思。'于是给了他一个代收地址和一次性电话号码，等了五个工作日，然后我试图从戴尔那里刷5000美元。订单失败了。我又上ICQ找他：'嘿，老兄。'

I was like, yeah, that's the idea. So, give him a drop address, give him a burner phone number, wait five business days, and I try to hit Dale for $5,000. The order fails. I get back on ICQ. Hey, man.

我说：'没成功。'他说：'再给我一次机会。'我说：'听着，可以再给你一次机会，但下次就轮到你的屁股了。'他说：'就一次机会。'

It didn't work. He's like, give me one more chance. I was like, look. I'll give you one more chance, but it's your ass after that. He's like, one more chance.

我说：'行吧。'又给了他一个新地址和新号码，再等五个工作日，这次从Thompson电脑仓库刷了4000美元，戴尔5000美元，订单成功了，货物到手。我在Counterfeit Library上发布了这条评价，结果一夜之间，我们就从eBay和PayPal诈骗网站转型成了信用卡盗刷网站。会员们的收入开始暴增。当时我们做的是现在所谓的CMP诈骗，也就是无卡交易诈骗。

Like, okay. Give him another address, another phone number, wait another five business days, hit Thompson's Computer Warehouse for $4,000, Dell for $5,000, order goes through, get the products in. I post that review on Counterfeit Library and literally overnight, we turn from an eBay, PayPal fraud site to a credit theft site. And that becomes a lot of money really quickly for members. So we were doing now it's called CMP fraud, card not present fraud.

具体就是用盗取的信用卡数据攻击在线商家。那时候，一个经验丰富的诈骗犯每月能赚3到4万美元。懂吗？就是买些笔记本电脑之类的，然后变现，比如挂eBay上卖掉。每月净赚3到4万刀。

So you hit an online merchant with stolen credit card data. Back then, a a fairly experienced fraudster could profit 30 to $40,000 a month. Okay? Just buying, you know, laptops, what have you and cashing out, you know, put them on eBay for sale and sell them like that. And 30 to 40 k a month was the profit on that.

Script有很多同伙。他有像Roman Vega这样的人脉，这些家伙不仅卖信用卡数据，还卖实体伪造信用卡。我们做的是伪造卡，不是盗刷卡。是伪造的。伪造的。

Script had a lot of buddies. He had people like Roman Vega, these other guys that would sell not just credit card data, but counterfeit physical credit cards as well. We had Counterfeit, not stolen. So counterfeit. Counterfeit.

那做起来一定很困难。所以那些连接肯定比那更复杂，真是疯狂。驾照的事。

That that must be tough to do. So the connections That must be harder than That's crazy. Driver's license.

太疯狂了。所以，你知道，你回来了，Boa最初拥有的就是我后来成为Boa在美国的销售代表。但他当时是美国第一个提供数据转储的人。在你的信用卡或借记卡背面，有一条磁条，上面有三个数据轨道。

That's crazy. So, you know, you're back so what's what Boa initially had and I became the The United States salesperson for Boa. But what he had was is he was the first dumps provider in The United States. So on the back of your credit or debit card, there's a magnetic stripe. Three data tracks on the stripe.

第一条数据轨道是客户姓名，第二条是卡号，斜杠后面是16位算法，这个很重要，我们稍后会再提到。第三条数据轨道被称为混杂数据，没人使用它。

There is the first data track is customer's name, second data track is the card number, forward slash 16 digit algorithm outside of that. That's important. We'll get back to that in a few minutes. Third data track is called indiscriminate data. No one uses it.

明白了吗？被买卖的是第二条数据轨道，称为数据转储。之所以交易这个，是因为当你进店插卡或刷卡时，唯一发送验证的信息就是第二条数据轨道。对吧？

Alright? So what's bought and sold is the second data track. It's called the dump. And the reason that's sold is when you go into a shop, you insert the card or you swipe the card, the only information that's sent out for verification is the second data track. Alright?

这条信息会发送到处理银行进行验证。第一条数据轨道——客户姓名会显示在你面前收银员的屏幕上。通常的操作是：你买10份这种数据转储，制作10张伪造卡，在所有卡上编码第二条轨道。第一条轨道则对应一张假驾照上的姓名。

That goes to the processor bank for verification. The first data track, that customer's name shows up on the screen of the cashier in front of you. So what typically happens is is you buy 10 of these dumps, you get 10 counterfeit cards, encode track two on all 10 cards. Track one, you create one fake driver's license. Track one is just the name of that one fake driver's license.

这样当你进店刷卡时，第二条轨道发送验证，第一条轨道显示在收银员屏幕上。如果要查身份证，你就出示那张假证件。所有人都觉得没问题，你就可以带着监控镜头和劳力士离开了。

That way when you go in the shop, swipe the card, track two gets sent off for verification. Track one shows up on the screen in front of the cashier. If you ever ask for ID, you pull out the fake ID. Everyone's in ice, warm, fuzzy. You walk out with cameras, Rolex.

第一条轨道可以...不一定需要连接...它和第二条轨道没有关联。

And track one could be doesn't have to be connect it's not connected to track two.

完全没有关联。明白吗？这是其中一个重大问题。

Not connected at all. Alright? That's that's one of the big problems.

明白吗？是的。

Alright? Yeah.

所以Script把一群技术人员带入了那种环境，都在从事信用卡盗窃。我们有代理供应商，有所有做这些事的人。我们开始赚很多钱，非常多。原因还是那样，Script没有兑现能力，所以他只能靠卖东西。同时他在想怎么赚更多钱。

So script brought a a host of technical people into that type of environment, all committing credit card theft. We had proxy providers, we had all these people that were doing this stuff. We start making a lot of money, a lot. And the reason that happens is, again, Script did not have the ability to cash out, So he was reduced to selling things. And at the same time, he's looking for how do I make more money.

明白吗？乌克兰人偶然发现了一个叫CVV1漏洞或黑客攻击的东西。他们就这么称呼它。接下来发生的是，记得我说过的轨道二，卡号斜杠16位算法。你必须知道编码算法才能刷卡或去ATM机取款。

Alright? The Ukrainians happened upon this thing called the CVV one breach or hack. That's what it's what they called it. So what happens is, remember I told you track two, card number forward slash 16 digit algorithm. You gotta know the algorithm to encode it so you can swipe the card or take it to the ATM machine.

明白吗？ATM机。你必须知道这个。当时我们正从地狱般的数据中钓鱼。我是说，我们做了很多钓鱼，非常多。

Alright? ATM. You gotta know it. Now we were fishing data from hell. I mean, we were we were doing a lot of fishing, a lot.

我们获取了PIN码。我们拿到了卡号，但得不到那个算法。于是乌克兰人开始测试。他们发现没有银行在轨道二上实施哈希加密。所以你用卡号斜杠任意16位数字，它都能编码。

We were getting pins. We were getting card numbers, but you can't get that algorithm. So Ukrainians start testing stuff. What they found out was no bank had implemented the hash on track two. So you take the card number forward slash any 16 digits, it would encode.

拿去ATM机，因为有PIN码就能取现。明白吗？开始这么做了。等等。等等。

Take it to the ATM, pull cash out because you got the PIN. Alright? Started doing that. Wait. Wait.

抱歉，我在试着理解。那么意思是说，如果他们不生成随机数字，他们是否拥有有效的第二轨数据？其实只要第二轨是完整的，就完全不需要任何数字。所以就是

Sorry. I'm trying to understand. So that means so if there's no are they generating random numbers, or do they have valid numbers for track two? No numbers needed at all as long as just the track two was a complete track two. So it's

一个有效的第二轨数据但不匹配，所以PIN码才是让你进入的关键？回到那时候，

a valid track two that doesn't match so the PIN is the thing that gets you in? Back so back then,

好的，那时候，我们说的是通常你需要完整的第二轨数据。你需要那个有效的第二轨。对。明白吗？你需要那16位卡号，斜杠，以及旁边那个算法生成的数字。

alright, back then, what we're talking about is you needed typically, today, you need a whole track two. You need that valid track two. Yeah. Alright? You need the you need the 16 digit card number, forward slash, and then whatever that algorithm is on the side of it.

对。明白吗？那时候，没有银行实施那个算法。所以虽然算法存在，但你编码时并不需要它。

Yeah. Alright? Back then, none of the banks had implemented that algorithm. So while the algorithm was there, you didn't need it to encode.

有意思。真有意思。所以你可以通过实体卡赚很多钱

Interesting. Interesting. So you can make a lot of money with physical

赚那么多钱，信用卡、借记卡。非面对面欺诈，记得我告诉过你，每月能赚3到4万美元。对。明白吗？后来变成每天3到4万美元。

So much money that credit cards, debit cards. Card not present fraud, remember I told you, was 30 to $40,000 a month. Yeah. Alright? That turned into 30 to $40,000 a day.

是啊。乌克兰人，再说一次，他们无法套现。他们掌握了全球所有数据，但就是无法套现。网络犯罪的三大必要条件。所以交易规则变成了：你必须依赖美国人。

Yeah. The Ukrainians, again, they can't cash it out. They've got all the data on the planet, but they can't cash it out. Those three necessities of cybercrime. So the deal became, you have to rely on the Americans.

告诉你吧，我们会给你40%的分成。

Tell you what, we'll give you 40%.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你手下那些收银员每天能处理4万美元的40%。对，我们就拿这个比例。剩下的钱通过西联汇款之类的方式转给乌克兰联系人。

So you had all these cashiers that were 40% of $40,000 a day. Yeah. We'll take that. Alright. Send the rest of it over to buy Western Union or what have you to Ukrainian contact.

那时加密货币还没登场。虽然已经有eGold和自由储备这类先驱了。但最初是通过西联汇款，后来变成预付卡，发送追踪信息给那边，给卡片充值，再后来发展到eGold、自由储备，直到现在用的加密货币。开始盗取大量资金，非常多。这引起了执法部门的注意。

That's before cryptocurrency came into play. Now you had a couple of forerunners with eGold and Liberty Reserve, things like that. But back then, it starts out with Western Union, then it becomes prepaid cards, sending tracking information over, loading the card up like that, and then finally you get to eGold, Liberty Reserve, then today it's with crypto that's that's used. Started stealing a lot of money, a lot. And that got law enforcement attention.

于是我们发现——这故事简直疯狂——我们发现执法部门和政府机构的IP地址在访问，因为那时候他们也不知道怎么隐藏身份。你会看到特勤局、国防部之类的，就觉得很有意思。同时我们遇到所谓的'黑客攻击'，其实不是。我们有个在洛杉矶T-Mobile工作的内线。

So we started to see I mean, it's crazy ass story. We started to see IPs coming in from law enforcement agencies, government agencies, because back then, they didn't know how to shield their identity either. So you saw you saw Secret Service, you saw DOD, you saw all these like and you're like, that's interesting. So, you know and at the same time, we had it was called a hack, but it wasn't a hack. We had a guy that worked at T Mobile in Los Angeles.

就是当年公布帕丽斯·希尔顿通讯录的同一个人。这事当时闹得很大。他不仅干了这事，还发现洛杉矶特勤局在用T-Mobile的手机。所以他收到了特勤局调查暗影团伙的短信，这混蛋居然把这些都发到了暗影团伙的网站上。我坐在那儿看着事态发展。

This is the same guy that back then published Paris Hilton's phone contact list. They were that made a lot of news. Not only did he do that, but it turned out that the Los Angeles Secret Service Agency was using T Mobile phones. So he's getting text messages of the Secret Service investigating Shadow Crew, and he posts those damn things on Shadow Crew. So I'm sitting there going ahead of the pile.

我坐在那儿想，这事肯定没好下场。同时我还掌握着印第安纳州性犯罪者登记库的权限，用来开设银行账户洗钱，还倒卖这些账户。后来这个渠道被封了，我又搞到了得克萨斯州驾照数据库，开始伪造驾照之类的东西。

I'm sitting there going, this is not going to end well. This is not going to end well. So at the same time, I had access, I'd started out with access to the Indiana State Sex Offenders Registry and I was using that to create bank accounts, a lot of the money out and I would sell the bank accounts, stuff like that. They shut that down. The next database I had access to was the Texas driver's license database and started using that to create fake driver's licenses, what have you.

最后我们偶然发现了加州死亡索引。好吧，完整信息包括母亲娘家姓、社保号、出生日期等等。这些信息肯定能派上用场。你可以整天用它来伪造身份。

And then finally we happened upon the California death index. Alright. Complete information, mother's maiden, socials, d o b's, all that. It's like, got to be a use for that. Well, you can use it to create identities all day long.

我的想法是，我在想能不能利用已故之人的信息，不是申请社保死亡抚恤金，而是为那个人申请社保福利，从而获得定期发放的支票。这需要大量研究来验证可行性。联邦政府如何确认一个人是否死亡？联邦索引会参考州索引吗？这些问题接踵而至。

My idea was I wonder if you could take somebody that's died and then file for Social Security death benefit not death benefits, but Social Security benefits for that individual and get that recurring paycheck in. So that takes a lot of research to start seeing if you can do that. How does the federal government know if you're dead? Do federal indexes reference state indexes? You got all these questions that pop up.

结果发现联邦索引不会参考州索引，这是违法的。还发现1998年之前，联邦政府获知公民死亡的唯一途径是其家属需为该人提交社保死亡抚恤金申请。明白吗？哇哦。

Well, turns out federal indexes don't reference state indexes. It's against the law. So it also turns out the only way the federal government knows you're dead is prior to 1998, the family had to file a social security death benefit for that person. Alright? Wow.

98年之前

Prior to '98

当然，人们不会这么做。

Of course, people don't.

没错。98年之前需要家属申报，98年之后医院、殡仪馆或家属都可以申报。所以更多人去世后会有死亡记录。

Right. Prior to '98, it took the family. After '98, the hospital can do it, funeral home can do it, or the family can do it. So a lot more people have it filed after if they've died.

但可能还是有很多人...

But it's still there's a lot of people probably

很多人都不这么想。因为死亡抚恤金只有219美元左右。懂吗？没人会在意这点钱。于是我开始申请社会保障福利。

A lot of people don't. Because that death benefit's only like $219. Okay? Nobody's thinking about that shit. So I started to apply for social security benefits.

不行。号码是休眠的，所以他们要求你亲自去面试。你看我这样子，才二十多岁。你不可能冒充65岁的人，所以没戏。于是我想到，能不能用这些人的名义报税。

Nope. Number's dormant, so they want you to come in for a physical interview. Here I am, you know, two. You're not going to pass as a 65 year old, so no. So the next idea I had was wonder if you could file income tax returns on these people.

结果发现完全可以。于是我开始了，等摸清门路后就开始偷钱，因为你要测试所有环节。你得搞清楚存款方式等等。等一切就绪后，我每周能偷16万美元，一年持续十个月。通过缴税？

Turns out you can all day long. So I started doing that and I started to steal once I got ramped up because you test everything. You know, you're testing to make sure you got to figure out what the deposit instrument is and everything else. And once you get all that lined out, I started to steal a $160,000 a week every week for ten months out of the year. By paying taxes?

通过提交虚假的

By filing fake

对，提交虚假的税表

Yeah. Filing fake So tax

你找家企业。是的。当时国税局的运作方式是，在核实某人是否受雇前就会先退税。现在还是这样运作的。

you find a business Yes. And the way the system worked is the IRS will issue a refund on somebody before they're able to verify that that person worked for an employer. Still works like that today.

明白了吗？而且你把金额控制在相对较低的水平。

Alright? So And you're keeping the amounts relatively low.

控制在3000美元。好吧。金额非常低。

Keeping it $3,000. Alright. Amounts are very low.

但你仍然能够实现规模，因为这个庞大的真实指数

But you're still able to achieve scale because this large index I of real

刚开始都是手动操作。后来有几个朋友改用自动化了。

got to where and I was manual. Later on, a couple of buddies of mine went automated with it.

等等。你是手动操作的？完全不用写代码？

Wait. You would go and doing this by hand, so there's no code involved?

纯手工。哇。我每六分钟提交一次申报，每天工作十小时，每周三天。

All manual. Wow. I'd file a return once every six minutes, work ten hours a day, three days a week.

所以就是快速打字和点击

So clicking on so typing fast and clicking One

每六分钟提交一次。这意味着要更换IP、更换地址，每周三天里每六分钟就要重新操作一次。第四天我会开车出去，规划好ATM地图，接下来两天集中取现。搞定。搞定。

return every six minutes. That's changing IP, that's changing address, everything else will return every six minutes for three days a week. Fourth day, I would take a road trip, plot out a map of ATMs, and then the next two days cash out. Bam. Bam.

砰。砰。砰。好了。回家，冲洗干净，然后重复。

Bam. Bam. Bam. Alright. Come back home, rinse and repeat.

结果发现一个背包——虽然我现在没看到周围有——但一个背包能装15万美元的20元面额钞票。所以我放了15万的20元钞票在背包里。我有个备用卧室。我会进来，把背包扔进卧室。

Turns out that a backpack I don't see any sitting around here, but a backpack will hold a $150,000 of twenties is what it'll hold. So I put a 150 k and twenties in a backpack. I had a spare bedroom. I'd come in, toss the backpack in the bedroom.

这是非常非常重要的信息，而你知道这个事实也很关键。首先，我们从一吨重的煤的体积说起，现在又说一个背包能装15万零20美元。然后你可以乘以五来计算百元面额。对。

This is very, very important information and the fact that you know it is also very first, we started with the volume of coal that weighs a ton and now a backpack holds a $150,000.20. And then you can multiply that by five for hundreds. Yeah.

就像大多数时候，20元是从ATM机取出来的。对吧？每张20元重

Like Most of the times, 20 is coming out of ATM. Right? Each 20 weighs

不能用100元。一克。每张20元重一克。所以你

Can't do 100. A gram. Each 20 weighs a gram. So you

其实可以通过重量来计算，联邦当局收到一托盘现金时就是这么做的。他们直接称重。

can actually go by weight, which is what federal authorities do when they get a pallet of cash. They just weigh it.

哦，他们就直接称重。好吧。那么150

Oh, they just they just weigh it. Okay. So a 150

k是七又二分之一钥匙的现金。

k is seven and a half keys of cash.

50。哦，那还挺轻的。

50. Oh, that's pretty light.

不错。

Not bad.

不错。你买了大背包吗？是不是跟David Goggins一起背着跑了几步？嗯，挺好的。

Not bad. Did you get big backpack? Do do a bit run with David Goggins with it? Yeah. Nice.

我喜欢。但事实上，你知道，这很棒。等等，背包跟这有什么关系？那接下来会怎样

I like it. But the fact, you know, this is great. So wait. Where where does that come in with the backpack? So what happens

是...我当时不知道该怎么洗钱。懂吗？所以我就把现金堆在备用卧室里。有天你打开卧室门就会想：得处理掉这些背包了。这时候你才开始学洗钱，比如现金生意之类的。

is I I didn't know how to launder money. Alright? So, you know, I'm throwing cash in in the spare bedroom. One day, you open up the bedroom and you're like, gotta do something with those backpacks. And that's when you start learning how to launder money, you know, cash based businesses, things like that.

我有家制作公司，还有几家汽车美容店，当时还考虑在查尔斯顿搞餐车生意之类的

I had a production company, had a couple of detailing company, was thinking about going to the food trucks, things like that in Charleston,

南卡罗来纳州。我们能暂停一下，稍微岔开话题吗？洗钱是怎么运作的？我是说，在那个时期，具体是哪几年？

South Carolina. Can you pause on that to take a tangent there? How does money laundering work? I mean, at that time and what years are we talking about?

到税务欺诈计划开始实施时，我们说的是2002、2003年左右开始出现税务申报问题。

This is by the time the tax return schemes go into play, we're talking 2002, 2003 is when tax returns start.

那么在当时以及你现在了解的情况里，洗钱是如何演变和运作的？你知道，这其实...

And so what at that time and what you're aware of now, how it evolved, how does money laundering work? You know, it's not

本质上没有太大区别。真的。你找个现金密集型生意，开始洗钱或通过虚假交易让资金流动合法化。然后存入银行账户。我的手法是在美国、墨西哥、加拿大都开账户，最后资金跳转到爱沙尼亚——这是整个链条的终点站。

that much different. It's really not. You you get a cash based business, start laundering the money or putting the money through that saying the transactions are legal. You then start depositing into bank accounts. From bank accounts, my my thing was is have bank accounts in United States, Mexico, Canada, and then finally bounce over to Estonia was the final destination of all this stuff.

核心理念是通过多重周转，最终让资金看起来合法且难以追溯——虽然最终总会被抓住。现金密集型生意，你知道...

And the idea is is to try to move them to so many places that by the end of the day, it looks legal and you can't trace it all if you're ever caught, which you ultimately are. But so cash based businesses, you know

抱歉打断，你说的现金密集型生意...所以你有需要转移给别人的资金。具体怎么操作？是什么类型的生意？提供服务然后给他们钱？

When you say sorry to interrupt, but the cash based businesses so you have money Mhmm. That needs to be moved to other people. So how does that work? What's what's the business? Service and you're giving them money?

对。你可以学《黑钱胜地》那套——开赌场套现，搞些生活开销或赌场旅行。或者弄个制片公司、汽车美容店。每天洗多少辆车？名下有多少家这类公司？

Right. So you you do the Ozark thing if you wanna do that, so you can gamble, cash out some life house or trips to whatever casinos you've got. You've got your production company or your detail company. So how many cars you're cleaning a day? How many companies have you got to do that?

好吧。不管那家公司是什么，它必须是现金交易为主的。你现在做的就是有人在用现金支付你。你需要有足够多的这类现金业务，这样才不会显得可疑。明白吗？

Alright. Whatever that company is, it's got to be cash based. Somebody's paying you in cash is what you're doing. You have to have enough of those cash based businesses where it doesn't look funny. Alright?

因为如果你是一家每月盈利10万美元的洗车公司，那就成问题了。是的。懂吗？然后你开始往里面存钱。由于《爱国者法案》，可疑活动报告的门槛从原来的1万美元降到了2500美元。

Because if you're a detail company making a $100,000 a month, that's a problem. Yeah. Okay? So then you start depositing into that. Well, because of the Patriot Act, as a suspicious activity report, SARS came in at $2,500 instead of the 10 k that it used to be.

所以突然间，你需要设立多个银行账户。幸运的是，你同时还有一堆预付借记卡可以用。于是你把银行账户和具有ACH功能的预付卡结合起来使用，开始同时运作它们。一旦资金离开美国，你就不用那么担心了。

So all of a sudden, you've got multiple bank accounts that you've got to set up. Alright? Fortunately, what you also had is you had a bunch of prepaid debit cards that were coming into play at the same time. So a combination of bank accounts, prepaid debits that had ACH abilities attached to those as well, and you start running them all together. Then once it's out of The United States, you don't have to worry as much.

你可以开始把这些钱集中到更少的银行账户，直到最后你只有一个主要账户——爱沙尼亚的Bankletico银行。这就是你的操作。

You can start funneling that into fewer bank accounts until finally you've got the one main account that's over at Bankletico in Estonia at that That's what you've got.

所以就是经过多次跳转，最终到达一个你无法追踪的地方。然后

So a bunch of hops that end up in a place that you can't And

给你个概念，我是2005年2月8日被捕的。最后一次资产没收是在2010年。收到最后一份没收通知。所以他们花了那么长时间才追查到。

to give you an idea, was arrested 02/08/2005. My last seizure was 2010. Got the last seizure notice. So took them they got it. It took them that long to get to it.

那么，像这样的故事里，剧本是怎么安排的？比如他绑架并折磨了欠他钱的人？什么时候事情开始变得更黑暗了？

So so how do stories, like, with script that come into play here where he had someone who owed him money kidnapped and tortured? So when does it turn darker?

当你赚的钱越多，情况就变得越黑暗。斯克里普小时候就偷了足够多的钱，能买下任何他看中的房产，他还炫耀说会去乡下转悠，看到喜欢的房产就直接买下。这可不是吹牛，他真的这么干。所以这孩子偷了很多钱。同时，由于家族关系，他在政界也有人脉。

It turns darker when the more the more money you make. Scripp was a kid that he was stealing enough money that he was able to buy whatever estate he wanted to, and he would brag about touring the countryside and if he saw property that he liked, he would buy it. And that was not just a brag, he was doing that. So this kid is stealing a lot of money. At the same time, he's got connections politically because of his family.

他有关系网，而且他家族与乌克兰黑帮有联系。明白吗？所以他既有这些门路，又有人罩着他，同时还在大量偷钱。如果有人欠钱不还，数额还不小的话...

He's got connections and that family's got connections with the Ukrainian mob. Alright? So he's got these inroads and people are looking out for him and he's stealing a lot of money at the same time. Somebody doesn't pay him. A decent amount of money, somebody doesn't pay them.

我们Shadow Crew、卡特星球、假证图书馆那会儿，本质上都是技术宅。懂吗？我们就是搞诈骗和社交工程的。我们从未真正考虑过使用暴力。我当时定的规矩是：不碰儿童色情、不搞假币、不沾毒品。

Now we had never with Shadow Crew, with Carter Planet, with Counterfeit Library, we were basically the geeks. Alright? We were just the fraudsters, the social engineers. We had never really considered violence. The rules that I had in play were, hey, we don't do child pornography, we don't do counterfeit currency, we don't do drugs.

最后我们真正遵守的只有不碰儿童色情这条——除了你之前提到的马克斯·巴特勒。斯克里普那边，有人坑了他一笔。他当时就登录Shadow Crew，某天突然发了这些照片。我是说，这些照片完整记录了整个故事：面包车撞门、把人绑起来、实施酷刑...

And the only thing we ended up really obeying was the child porn stuff, except for Max Butler who you mentioned earlier. Script, someone rips the guy off. And he comes online on Shadow Crew at that point and he posts these pictures one day. And I mean, it was a detailed narrative through the pictures. Had the guy that rammed in the van, had the door open rammed in rammed in the van, had the guy tied up, had the guy being tortured.

配文是：这就是偷我钱的下场。这是第一次出现暴力事件。这时候你才意识到事态开始严重了。

And the response was, this is what happens when you steal from me. And that's the that's the first time that violence came into play at that point. That's when things got you start realizing things are getting more serious.

你当时是什么感受？

How did that make you feel?

第一反应是：这不可能是真的。他就是在虚张声势，想吓唬人。但后来你就意识到：不，这是真的。千真万确。

The the first response is, can't be real. He's he's just that's he's just doing that. You know, he's he's wanting to send a message. Then you're like, no, that's real. That's real.

而且

And

你内心深处是否曾害怕自己也可能堕落到那种地步？比如，你看到那种情况时，是否清楚意识到这是一条有些人会跨过而有些人不会的界线，而你属于不会跨过的那类人？

Were you afraid in your own heart that you might descend to that too? Like, you see that, or was it pretty clear to you that that's a that's a line that some people can cross and some can't and you're not one of those that can cross it?

跟你说个玩笑话，我常跟我妻子开玩笑。我对她说的玩笑是：要是我知道谁手上有8000枚比特币，我可能会被说服去‘请求’他交出来。她就问怎么要？我说比如用锤子敲脚趾。对，就这么个玩笑。

You know, I gotta tell you, I I joke with my wife. The the joke I the joke I tell my wife is, you know, if I knew some guy that had 8,000 bitcoins, I might be persuaded to ask him for access to that. And she was like, how? And I was like, well, hammering toes. Yeah.

我虽然是用玩笑口吻说的，但确实存在那种心理界限——你会想起自己曾经是什么样的人。面对那种巨额财富，当年的我很可能真会被说服那么做。我觉得这就是斯克里普斯的问题所在，那笔钱对他来说是天文数字。

And I say that as a joke, but there's that line where you're like, I remember who I used to be. And if you're looking at that kind of money, I might be persuaded to do that back then. You know, that's that's and I think that was Scripps' issue, is he it was a lot of money to him.

确实是一大笔钱。而且你要知道，暴力行为也是渐进的。日积月累，一点一点，得寸进尺。

It was a money. And then there's you know, violence can also be gradual. So over time, do a little more, a little more, a little more, a little more.

你会逐渐习惯现状，然后变得麻木。就拿罗斯·乌布利希（丝绸之路创始人）来说，他本来不是暴力分子，根本不是。

You get used to what's going on and then I get Get desensitized. And you you figure you take somebody like like Ross Ulbrich, the the Silk Road guy. Alright? Ross was not a violent guy. He's he was not.

但当时他坐拥24.24亿美元的比特币，是行业里的唯一巨头。按现在价值算差不多是220到240亿？当有人威胁要告发他进行勒索时，罗斯就觉得自己处于危险中，于是雇了两个杀手去灭口。

But at that point in time, you know, he was sitting on $2,424,000,000 of Bitcoin. He was the only game in town. And that 24 now is like, I don't know, 22 24,000,000,000, some crap like But he felt in danger of this guy was going to turn him in. You know, was blackmailing him and everything. So Ross thinks he hires a couple hitmen to kill the guy.

所以它逐渐演变成那样，我一次又一次地目睹这种情况。虽然我想说自己并非如此，但在相同处境下，很可能也会做出同样的事。

So it's it's it becomes that thing and I saw that over and over again. And I'd like to say I wasn't like that, but given the same circumstances, would have probably done the same thing.

而且这不仅仅关乎金钱，还有许多其他因素——比如当你的安全、财富或权力受到威胁时，我们每个人都有不同的动机。

And also when you're it's not just about money, there's a lot of other forces like if you're threatened for your well-being or for your wealth or for your power, all all of us different motivations.

再加上那些网络社区的特性，如果你是领头人，真的会觉得自己像是这些人的家长。所以如果有人开始威胁他们，就会想：好吧，我该...

Plus that that online aspect with those communities like that, if you're the head guy, you really feel like you're the parent of these guys. Yeah. So if somebody's starting to threaten them, it's like, alright. What do I

采取什么行动？所以你会创建丝绸之路吗？你看，影子团队开创的事业如今被称为暗网和暗网市场。这些市场交易各种物品，从儿童色情制品到毒品，我是说——还有什么？应有尽有。

need to do? So what do you make a Silk Road? See, the shadow crew started something that today, you can call dark net and dark net markets. So these markets that operate that trade trade things, everything from child pornography to drugs to I mean, what else? Everything.

人类想要进行哪些不愿被人知晓的黑暗勾当？所有这些事。那么能否请你... 这样吧，我们先退一步说。

What are the dark things that humans want to do that they don't want anyone to know about? All of those things. Right. So can you maybe tell me you know what? Let's just even step back.

什么是暗网？它的规模有多大？那里都在发生什么？

What is the dark net? How big is it? What what happens there?

在讨论那个之前，让我们再回溯得更早一些。影子团队除了交易这些赃物之外，还做了件真正重要的事——记得我提到的那三个必要条件吗？但关键在于它在罪犯之间建立了信任体系。

Let let's let's backtrack a little bit more before we get to that. Alright? What Shadow Crew did other than, you know, dealing in all these stolen wares. What Shadow Crew did that's really important, remember those three necessities that I talked about. But the important thing is is it established trust among criminals.

明白吗？因为这是必须的。你必须能够信任你打交道的人，因为你必须和某人打交道。你必须这样。明白吗？

Alright? Because that's a necessity. You have to be able to trust who you're dealing with because you have to deal with somebody. You have to. Alright?

那么你怎么知道你不是在和警察打交道？你怎么知道你在和一个有技术的人打交道？你怎么知道你不会遇到骗子？你必须能够信任那个人。暗影团队为犯罪分子提供了这种信任机制。

So how do you know you're not dealing with a cop? How do you know you're dealing with somebody that's skilled? How do you know you're going to deal with somebody that's not going to rip you off? You've to be able to trust that individual. The shadow crew provided that trust mechanism for criminals.

你有那个沟通渠道，那些论坛，你可以查阅几周、几个月前的对话记录，参与其中并从这些对话中学习。他们有担保系统和评价系统，还有托管系统。你可以通过看某人的网名就知道是否可以信任这个人，是否可以和他建立联系。明白吗？正是这个由普通人组成的社区提供了这种信任基础。

You had that communication channel, the forums, where you could reference conversations weeks, months old, take part and learn from those conversations. You had vouching systems and review systems in place, escrow systems in place. You had you could knew by looking at someone's screen name, if you could trust the individual, network with the individual. Alright? And that community of of just humans provided that backbone of trust.

当你仔细想想，这真的很有趣。你既有现成的信任，又几乎能即时获取关于这个社区或整个网络犯罪的信息。这种情况至今仍然存在。明白吗？所以这就是事情原来的样子，直到几件事情发生。

And that's that's really interesting when you think about it. You you had the trust that was there, but you also had this almost this instantaneous information that was available about the community or about cybercrime at large. That's that's still in play today. Alright? So when that that was the way things were until a couple of things happened.

其中一个是加密货币。另一个是Tor浏览器，暗网。我当时正在和特勤局合作，在Tor出现时欺骗特勤局。明白吗？有一天我们收到一份备忘录，上面谈到了Tor浏览器。

And one was cryptocurrency. The other one was the Tor browser, the dark web. Now I was working with the secret service, ripping the secret service off when Tor comes into play. Alright? So we got a we got a memo in one day and it was talking about the Tor browser.

内容大概是：我们真的需要小心这个。这会是个问题。于是我们都打开了Tor浏览器，结果发现——那是在2005年底或2006年初——它完全无法使用。根本用不了，就因为没人用而且速度极慢。

And it was like, we really need to be careful with this. This is gonna be a problem. And so we all fired up the Tor browser and it turns out it was this was 2,005, early 6. Turns out it was completely unusable. Could not use it at all simply because no one was using it and it was extremely slow.

另外，可能有人不知道，Tor浏览器是一种可以完全匿名的方式。

So Also for people don't know, Tor Browser is a way to be completely anonymous.

只要你懂得正确使用它。对吧。有个重要前提。是的。好的。

As long as you properly know how to use it. Right. Huge caveat. Yeah. Alright.

这是由美国海军开发的，他们研发了这个。我之前不知道哦，是的。不是黑客们开发的。嗯嗯。有意思。美国海军。

So developed by the United States Navy and they developed This. I did not Oh, yeah. It wasn't the hackers that Uh-uh. Interesting. US Navy.

至今为止，Tor的最大资助方仍是军方。至今都是。

To this day, the number one funder of Tor, military. To this day.

好吧？有意思。我是说，互联网的起源也差不多是这样。最初的目的是

Alright? Interesting. I mean, the same, guess, with the Internet. The the origins are So it was

开发出来是为了让特工们能互相沟通而不暴露身份。明白吗？后来它开源了。他们发布了它。电子前沿基金会介入，开始赞助等等。

developed so that operatives could communicate with each other without being identified. Alright? That then goes open source. They release it. EFF comes in, starts sponsoring and everything else like that.

接下来的想法是，你看，人们可以绕过国家的防火墙。举报者可以使用它，诸如此类。但有人忘了提，最先采用新技术的，如果能用来洗钱或保持匿名，往往是罪犯。于是罪犯们开始用这该死的东西。对吧？

The next idea was, well, you know, people can get around their country's firewalls. Whistleblowers can use it, things like that. Well, someone forgot to mention that the first adoptees of tech, if you can use it to launder money or remain anonymous, are criminals. And so criminals start to use the damn thing. Alright?

差不多同时期，几年后，中本聪带着他的比特币构想出现了，然后罗斯·乌布利希接手。罗斯·乌布利希决定创建丝绸之路。最初使用Tor（后来成为暗网）的人们只是互相聊天、访问网站、这样交流。有人想到，嘿，我们可以在上面托管网站，而且他们很难定位服务器。于是丝绸之路就这样突然诞生了。

So along the same time we get well, few years later, we get Satoshi Nakamoto pops up with his ideas for Bitcoin, and then Ross Ulbrich runs with it. Ross Ulbricht decides he's gonna start up Silk Road. So initially, the people who were using Tor, which later is the dark web, people were using Tor were just talking with each other, visiting websites, communicating like that. Someone figured out, hey, man, we could host websites on this thing and they have a lot of trouble finding the box. So that is the advent of Silk Road all of a sudden.

罗斯·乌布利希有个想法，他打算通过成为全球最大的毒贩来改变世界。于是他创建了丝绸之路，唯一允许的支付工具就是比特币。所以那些人在想为什么比特币今天涨到了多少，4.4万？

Ross Ulbrich has this idea that he's going to change the world by becoming the largest drug dealer on the planet. So he opens up the Silk Road and the only payment instrument he allows is Bitcoin. So if those people out there are wondering why Bitcoin is going at what, 44 k today?

是啊是啊。等这事传开时，可能涨到10万也说不定。我们拭目以待吧，谁知道呢？

Yeah. Yeah. Starts By the time this is out, it could be a 100,000 or Absolutely. 10 We'll see. Who knows?

要是跌到1万，我就买点。

If it's 10,000, I'm gonna buy some.

这话现在听起来很滑稽，因为五年前这种说法简直荒谬至极，对吧？

So Which is a hilarious statement to make because that statement would be ridiculously wrong, like, five years ago. Right?

我知道。我知道。我知道。

I know. I know. I know.

一百年后的人们会笑死，等等，当时价格居然这么低？所以

People a hundred years from now will be laughing, wait, it was that low? So

他只接受比特币，当然，加密货币最初的应用场景现在没人愿意承认，但最初就是用来买大麻的。我们需要有人，需要支付方式。事情就是这样。罗斯，这真的很有意思。

he only accepts Bitcoin and that's and of course, the the initial use case of crypto is no one wants to admit it today, but the initial use case is we're gonna buy a bunch of pot. We need somebody. We need a way to pay for it. So that's that's what happens. Ross, it's it's really interesting to me.

如果你观察网络罪犯的动机，无非就是地位、金钱和意识形态。明白吗？我接触的那些人，全是为了钱。无一例外，都是为了钱。而罗斯则是出于意识形态。

If you if you look at motivations of cyber criminals, the motivations are status, cash, ideology. Alright? My guys, all cash. Across the board, all cash. Ross' ideology.

他真心相信自己能改变世界。他真的这么认为。我很幸运，实际上我认识运营丝绸之路2.0的那个人，和那小子聊过，了解所有内情。我可以告诉你，那些被意识形态驱动的人完全是另一种生物。

He really believed he was going to change the world. He really did. And I've been fortunate. I actually know the guy who ran Silk Road two and have talked to the kid, everything else. And I will tell you that those those guys who are motivated by ideology, they are a completely different breed.

他们确实如此。你知道，为钱犯罪的人就像低垂的果实。虽然很难阻止犯罪，但相比被意识形态驱使的人，金钱驱动的个体更容易收手。那个丝绸之路2.0的运营者至今仍执迷不悟。

They really are. It's not you know, the cash guy, it's it's it's low hanging fruit. The the ease of of it's hard to stop committing crime. But it's much easier for a cash motivated individual to stop than it is that ideology guy. That Silk Road two guy, he's still got it.

他现在没有违法，但你能看出他蠢蠢欲动。他真的很想再干。所以这...

He's not breaking the law, but you can see it's like, he wants to. He wants to. So it's it's

这很有意思，我是说，人类历史上最恶劣的暴行都是由意识形态驱动者犯下的。其他动机的破坏力都弱得多。

That's fascinating that I mean, the the worst atrocities in human history are committed with people that operate under ideology. All the other motivations are much weaker.

但你想，以罗斯为例，他是个非常聪明的人。非常聪明。但要想想这个人承受的认知失调有多严重——他居然认为运营毒品网站能改变世界。我是说，他确实有可能改变世界吗？有可能。

But you know, you think about it, you've got with Ross, I mean, very bright guy. Very bright guy. But think about the amount of cognitive dissonance that the guy's got, that he thinks he's gonna change the world by running a drug site. I mean, certainly, I mean, could he have changed the world? Yeah.

但他用这种方式能成功吗？大概率不行。呃，我我我可以...

Could he have done it like that? Probably not. Well, I I I can

为那些论点构建最强版本。我听过不少自由意志主义者的观点，甚至可以延伸到无政府主义者。

steel man those arguments. I I listened to quite a few libertarians, and you could push that to anarchists.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，有很多人持这种观点。实际上我和哥伦比亚大学的一位教授谈过，他主张所有毒品都应合法化，这不是哲学或政治层面的讨论，而是他认为人们谈论的毒品所有负面影响其实都与你生活中的其他因素有关。

The you know, there's a lot of people that argue so I actually talked to to to to professor at Columbia who actually argues that all drugs should be legalized, and not at a philosophical level, political level, but the fact that all the negative consequences of drugs that people talk about actually have to do with other factors in your life.

我同意这个观点。

I would agree with that.

所以这是个合理的论点。但这更多是关于毒品负面影响的讨论。我认为意识形态体现在：没有人应该告诉你能做什么，你应该对自己的行为负责，政府或其他机构不应成为你生活方式的规则制定者和约束者。我能理解这种论点，最终如果建立一个开放的毒品市场，可能会构建更好的社会，或许能瓦解那些过时、腐败、官僚的机构。

And so that's a okay. But that's more like a argument about negative aspects of drugs. I think the ideology comes in where it's like, well, nobody should tell you what to do. You should be you should have the responsibility of your own actions, like the government or any other institution shouldn't be the rule setters, the constraints for how you live your life. And so that I could I could see that argument being made, and ultimately, if you, like, create an open market for drugs, how that could build a better society, it might break down the outdated, the corrupt, the bureaucratic institutions.

我是说，你可以提出这样的论点。

I mean, you you can make you can make that argument.

确实存在这种论点。但公平地说——我想公正看待——他改变世界了吗？我们确实有加密货币这整个领域。

There's an argument. But And and let's be fair. I wanna be fair with it. I mean, could did he change the world? We do have this whole thing called cryptocurrency.

是啊，从历史的长河来看，或许如此。

Yeah. In the long arc of history, perhaps.

没错，我们确实有这个。所以这是个大事。那么

Yeah. We do have that. So that's that's a biggie. So

而要让它在社会中扎根，也许最初需要在社会的阴暗面发展，这或许是必要的。

And that might might have been for it to take hold in society. Maybe the darker parts of society at first, maybe that was necessary.

对，我是说，也许吧。我们得看看事情如何发展。影子团队里有个叫阿尔伯特·冈萨雷斯的小子，我们规模扩张得太快，我不得不开始外包一些事务。

Right. I mean, maybe. I mean, we'll see how it pans out. Shadow crew, we had this guy, Albert Gonzalez, this kid's name. We had we were growing so big that I had to start farming things out.

我首先外包的是技术审核系统，进一步建立犯罪分子间的信任机制。我们需要有人负责论坛的技术维护。我的搭档金·泰勒当时在找论坛技术员，有天晚上他跟我说找到人了，我问是谁？

So the first thing I started farming, I I instituted this review system kind of establishing that trust mechanism even further for criminals to use. We needed somebody to take care of our tech aspects of the forum. So associate of mine by the name of Kim Taylor, we were looking for a forum techie. He comes to me one night and he's like, founder forum techie. I was like, who's that?

他说是个小子。我问靠谱吗？他说这小子懂软件。我说行吧，就把他招进来了。

And he's like, this kid. And I was like, is it any good? He's like, well, he knows the software. And I was like, okay. We just signed his ass on.

他的网名叫Kumbajani，后来用Scarface的ID卖信用卡。就是那个CVV数据泄露事件，有人在ATM机上每天套现四万美元。记得有次在新泽西的Albertsons超市，光天化日之下，这家伙在ATM前站了四十分钟，一张接一张地塞卡取现，把二十美元钞票全塞进背包里。

He went by the screen name of Kumbajani, was his screen name. And he starts selling credit cards after a while under a screen name of Scarface. And that CVV one breach where you're cashing out the track twos at ATMs, you know, $40,000 a day. So Albertsons, New Jersey one day, broad daylight, and stands at an ATM for forty minutes. Just standing there, feeding in one ATM card after another, pulling out cash, taking the twenties out, stuff them in that backpack.

嗯。与此同时，街对面刚好有几个警察在。嗯。他们开始注意到有个孩子一直站在那里。于是他们观察了这个孩子四十分钟。

Mhmm. Meanwhile, just across the street, a couple of cops just happened to be there. Mhmm. And they start noticing this kid's just standing there. So forty minutes, they watch this kid.

四十分钟后，终于有个警察对另一个说：'我去看看那边什么情况。'他穿过马路。阿尔伯特戴着假发，全副伪装，诸如此类的打扮。

Forty minutes. Finally, one cop looks at the other, let me see what's going on there. Walks over across the street. Albert's wearing a wig. He's got the disguise on, everything else like that.

警察问他：'孩子，你在干什么？'阿尔伯特彻底崩溃了。我们当时不知道阿尔伯特已经被捕过。所以他立刻就说：'我想为特勤局工作。'

Asked him, kid, what are you doing? Albert falls apart. We didn't know Albert had been arrested. So Albert immediately goes in. I wanna work for the Secret Service.

那时候的特勤局，我这么说吧...我不想...我得确认下...我不想说现在还是这样。但在当时，他们简直就是一群白痴。明白吗？他们对情况一无所知。

At that point in time, Secret Service, I referred to and I I don't I wanna make sure that I I don't say it's it's not like that anymore. But back then, they were fucking idiots. Alright? They had no clue what was going on.

这么说吧，他们当时正面临着信任危机。

So there was a confidence issue that they were working through is one way to put it.

这个委婉说法很体面。或者说'一群白痴'是另一种表达方式。

That's a nice that's a nice euphemism. Or fucking idiots is another way to say it.

所以他们根本，怎么说呢，完全不了解这个数字世界。

So they're they're just, like, not aware of this digital world.

他们毫无头绪。完全不知道。阿尔伯特教他们怎么抓我们，因为他们盯着他看，我们怎么抓他呢？阿尔伯特那副样子，我是认真的。真的。

They had no clue. No clue. The way that Albert tells them how to catch us because they looked at him, how do we catch him? And Albert's like, Albert, I'm serious. I'm serious.

阿尔伯特就说，呃，你们可以试试VPN。什么是VPN？对。然后他就给他们解释。他们觉得，这主意不错。

So Albert's like, well, you could try a VPN. What's a VPN? Yeah. So he explains it to them. They're like, that's a good idea.

所以我退出了影子团队。我担心所有传来的消息，那些事。我每周还有16万进账。我不知道阿尔伯特被捕了。我担心自己会被抓。

So I quit shadow crew. I was worried about all the news that was coming in, everything like that. I'm still in 160 k a week. I didn't know Albert had been arrested. I'm worried about being arrested.

我知道大势已去，我就想，我要退出。

I know the writing's on the wall, and I'm like, I'm quitting.

你在哪里看到苗头不对的？

My Where did you see the writing?

就是那些进来的IP地址？对。还有关于特勤局调查人员的短信

Like, the IPs that were coming in? Yeah. The text messages about the secret service investigators

还有那些建筑。压力是如何累积的。不是

and the buildings. How the pressure's building. It's not

结局会好的。这这这会变得糟糕。所以我宣布我2月15日退休哦，抱歉。2004年4月15日。嗯。

gonna end well. This is this is this is going to be bad. So I announced my retirement of February 15 oh, I'm sorry. 04/15/2004. Mhmm.

那就是我的退休。是的。我想那是在2004年。然后我辞职了。我离开了。

That's my retirement. Yeah. I think that's in 2004. And I quit. I walk away.

好吧，阿尔伯特被捕了。他们放了他。没人知道他被捕过。他回到了暗影团队。同时我离开了金·泰勒。

Well, Albert had been arrested. They cut him loose. No one knows he's been arrested. He comes back into shadow crew. I leave Kim Taylor at the same time.

他有点在逃亡，如果你想了解的话没错，这本身就是一个噩梦般的故事。所以我的副手金·泰勒，这家伙，有个叫大卫的人哦，他叫什么来着？他叫埃尔·玛利亚奇就是那人的名字。大卫·托马斯。大卫对。

He's kind of on the run, which if you wanna know that's right, it's a nightmare story in and of itself. So my second in charge, Kim Taylor, this guy, there was this guy named David oh, what was his name? He was El Mariachi was the the guy's name. David Thomas. David yeah.

是的。他是个搞电影的。

Yeah. He he was a film guy.

《疤面煞星》。对。对。

Scarface. Yeah. Yeah.

没错。所以埃尔·玛利亚奇，真名大卫·托马斯，他因为支票诈骗从内布拉斯加州逃亡。他来暗影团队找我们，讲述这个悲惨故事。我们为这家伙筹了笔钱。寄给了他。

Yeah. So El Mariachi, real name David Thomas, he's on the run out of Nebraska for check fraud. He comes to us on shadow crew telling us this sad story. We take up a collection for this guy. Send it to him.

明白吗？我给他找了份跟低级搬运工一起干的活，想让他赚点钱。懂吗？艾尔·马里亚奇或者托马斯干了几个星期，有一天来找我说，老兄，我根本赚不到钱。我就说，好吧。

Alright? I get him a job working with a low level carter trying to make him some money. Alright? El Mariachi does or Thomas does this for a few weeks, comes to me one day and he's like, man, I'm not making any money. I'm like, okay.

让我想想办法。当时我认识个乌克兰人叫BigBire，他是我真朋友。我联系他时就说，听着兄弟。

Let me see what I can do. Well, I had a a Ukrainian guy by the name of BigBire. He real friend of mine. And I contacted him. I was like, look, man.

我有个伙计想找活干，你能帮帮他吗？他说交给他。我说行。于是他给托马斯汇了钱——那时候托马斯在德克萨斯。

I got a guy that wants to do some work. Can you help the guy out? And he's like, I got him. I was like, okay. So he sends Thomas enough money to go Thomas is in Texas at that point.

汇的钱足够让托马斯从德克萨斯到华盛顿州的伊萨夸租间办公室。懂吗？托马斯就去了，和他女友租了办公室。计划是大买家会下单，货物发来后马里亚奇负责收货，挂eBay上套现50.5美元。很简单对吧？

Sends Thomas enough money to go from Texas to Issaquah, Washington and rent an office space. Alright? So Thomas goes up there, rents his office space, him and his girlfriend rents an office space. And the plan is, this big buyer is going to place an order, get product sent, Mariachi is going to get the product, list it on eBay, cash out $50.50. Easy enough, alright?

大买家下单了。第一单是outpost.com的18000美元订单，是他们当时收到过的最大订单。订单通过了。

So big buyer places an order. First order is outpost.com, $18,000. The largest order outpost.com had ever received at that point in time. Order goes through.

订单现在还能通过。确实通过了。

It goes through still. It goes through.

他收到货了。明白吗？马里亚奇回来告诉我，也告诉了我的副手金·泰勒。那时候我33、34岁，金·泰勒46岁。

He gets the product. Alright? Mariachi comes back, tells me, tells my second in charge, Kim Taylor. Kim Taylor, this point, he's I'm I'm 33, 34. Kim Taylor's 46.

他在科罗拉多州丹佛市的破封面书店工作。这就是他目前的工作地点。他还自以为是杰森·伯恩。嗯。好吧。

He works at the Tattered Cover Bookstore in Denver, Colorado. That's where he works at this point. And he fancies himself Jason Bourne. Mhmm. Alright.

他甚至用了杰森·伯恩的一个网名。所以我就想，好吧。玛利亚奇正在告诉我们他赚了多少钱以及其他事情。我说，那很好，很高兴你没事。

He's even got one of the screen names of Jason Bourne. So I'm like, alright. So Mariachi's telling us how much how much money he's making and everything else. I'm like, well, that's good. I'm glad you're alright.

金联系我。他说，我想去伊萨夸。我问，为什么？他说，去赚点钱。我说，你不是已经在赚钱了吗。

Kim contacts me. He's like, I wanna go to Issaquah. I was like, why? He's like, to make some money. I'm like, you're making money.

他说，我想去伊萨夸。我说，好吧。去吧。小心点。然后他就上车了。

He's like, I wanna go to Issaquah. I was like, alright. Go. Be careful. So he gets in the car.

他开的是土星车。他开着那辆破破烂烂的土星一路开到伊萨夸。到那儿的时候已经是午夜了。他们整晚都在派对，因为他们从未见过面。他们就是庆祝、派对、喝酒，诸如此类。

Saturn is what he's driving. He drives his little piece piece of shit Saturn all the way up to Issaquah. Gets there, you know, midnight. They party all night long because they've never met each other. They're just celebrating, partying, drinking, everything else like that.

与此同时，大买家又在outpost.com下了另一笔订单。17,000美元。这是outpost.com当时收到的第二大订单。到这个时候，outpost已经知道第一笔订单是欺诈性的。猜猜订单要送到哪儿？

Meanwhile, big buyer has placed another order with outpost.com. $17,000. The second largest order outpost.com had ever received at that point in time. By this point in time, outpost knows the first order was fraudulent. Guess where it's going?

和第一笔订单完全相同的地址。于是Outpost拿起电话，打给伊萨夸警方。嘿，我们抓到一个骗子。伊萨夸警方说，你们介意寄些空盒子过来吗？

The exact same address the first order goes. So Outpost picks up the phone, calls Issaquah PD. Hey. We got a fraudster. Issaquah is like, would you mind sending some empty boxes?

而Dalpost的态度是，乐意效劳。规矩是这样的：如果是信用卡诈骗，只要你有完整的账户权限，你就下单。货物预计送达的当天早上，你登录银行账户或信用卡账户。如果能登录成功，就去取货。嗯哼。

And Dalpost is like, be happy to. So the rule was is on credit card fraud, if you've got full account access, you place the order. The morning it's supposed to arrive, you sign into the bank account or the credit card account. If you can sign in, you go pick up your product. Mhmm.

如果登录失败，那天你就继续睡觉。嗯哼。明白吗？大买家就是那个下单的人。Mariachi和我的副手正在开派对。

If you can't sign in, you go back to sleep that day. Mhmm. Alright? Well, big buyer was the guy who placed the order. Mariachi and my second in charge are partying.

对吧？所以他们应该联系大买家。但他们没联系。与此同时，大买家正在大发雷霆，找到我说，嘿，你们人在哪儿？我找不到他们。

Alright? So they're supposed to contact big buyer. They don't. Meanwhile, big buyer is raising hell, getting up with me like, hey, Where are you where are the guys? I can't find them.

他们根本不需要去取这批货。所以我联系不上他们。他们开车去取货——Mariachi有辆七十年代的老凯迪拉克。他开着凯迪拉克驶入园区。现在是Mariachi在开车，Kim Taylor坐在副驾，David Thomas的女友坐在后排。

They don't need to pick up this product. So I can't get in touch with them. They go down to pick up the so Mariachi's got a Cadillac, old seventies Cadillac. He's got a Cadillac, pulls into the complex. Now, Mariachi's driving, Kim Taylor's in the passenger seat, David Thomas's girlfriend's in the back seat.

当他们穿过停车场驶入园区时，Mariachi恰巧瞥见一辆厢型车里有个男人侧坐着。他看着Kim Taylor说，那是便衣警察。Kim说没事。于是他们把车停到办公楼前。Kim说，我进去取包裹。

As they pull into the complex going through the parking lot, Mariachi just happens to glance over and he sees a van with a guy sitting sideways in the van. And he looks at Kim Taylor and he's like, that's an undercover. And Kim's like, it's fine. So they pull up to the office complex. Kim's like, I'll go in and get the packages.

他走进去，看着柜台后的男人说：我相信你这里有我们的包裹。那人说稍等。然后消失在墙后。Issaquah警察局的人突然出现，逮捕了Kim。

So he walks in, looks at the guy behind the counter. I believe you have some packages for us. Guy's like, one second. So he disappears around the wall. Out pops the Issaquah PD, arrest Kim.

David Thomas在车里目睹了这一切。他慌忙逃窜。嗯哼。他们在州际公路上逮捕了他，当时他钱包里除了真驾照外还有三张假驾照——又一个禁忌，但他们还是抓到了他。David Thomas在内布拉斯加州有未执行的逮捕令。我们没法保释他。

David Thomas is in the car watching all this happen. He bugs out Mhmm. And they arrest him on the interstate where he has three fake driver's licenses in his wallet along with his real driver's license, another no no, but they get him. So David Thomas had outstanding warrants out of Nebraska. We couldn't bond him out.

金·泰勒没有通缉令，所以我们保释了他。我手下第三号人物赛斯·桑德斯用他女友的账户办理了保释。我让玛丽别管这事，安排金·泰勒去了犹他州，我另一个朋友同意收留他们夫妇。当时我觉得一切都没问题。

Kim Taylor didn't have any warrants, so we bonded him out. My my third in charge kid, Seth Sanders was his name, he bonds him out, uses his girlfriend's account to bond him out. And I get Mary no. I get Kim Taylor to go to Utah where another friend of mine agrees to house him, him and his wife. So I think everything's fine and all that.

大约三周后，犹他州那家伙打电话给我说'必须让他滚蛋'。我问怎么回事，他说这家伙整天就知道嗑摇头丸。我反问'真的假的？'他肯定地说'千真万确'。

About three weeks later, this guy in Utah gets me on the phone, hey, He's gotta go. I'm like, what's going on? He's like, well, the only thing he's doing is popping ecstasy tablets every day, all day. And I'm like, seriously? He's like, yeah.

我只好说'行吧，让他走人'。于是我们把他赶了出去。那时候我正好有另一队人马要过来，手头同时运作着好几支队伍。

I was like, okay. He's gotta go. So we kick him out of there. By this point, I've got another crew that's coming through. I mean, I had all these crews running.

有支队伍要来丹佛，我就让金去丹佛和他们会合。结果金把这帮人都牵连进了警局。到这个时候我已经精疲力竭，只想举手投降撒手不管。

Had another crew that's coming through Denver. Send Kim back to Denver to partner up with these guys. Kim gets these guys arrested. So by this point in time, I'm exasperated. I just wanna throw my hands up in the air and walk away.

碰巧我退休的日子也到了，干脆心一横'去他妈的，老子不干了'。嗯。我就这样通知了所有管理员和版主。

So my retirement's coming up at the same time. So I'm like, fuck it. I'm done. Mhmm. So I I tell everybody at the rest of the admins and the and the mods there.

我说'情况就是这样，你们要当心。必须封杀金，绝不能让他再回来。注意事态发展'。交代完我就退出了。

I'm like, this is what's going on. You guys need to watch out for this. We need to ban Kim, not let him back in. Be careful what's going on. I walk away.

就在我退出的同时，约翰尼——阿尔伯特·冈萨雷斯重新登场。他目睹了整个局势，借机开始封杀所有怀疑他的人，同时架设VPN说'为确保安全，所有交易必须通过这个由特勤局运营的VPN进行'。

At the same time I walk away, come to Johnny, Albert Gonzalez comes back into play. He sees everything that's going on. He uses that to his advantage. He starts banning everyone that's suspicious of him, sets up the VPN at the same time and says, hey, to make sure we're all secure, I need all transactions to go through this VPN. VPNs ran by the secret service.

明白吗？特勤局最终统计出，在接下来的四五个月里，他们记录了价值约700万美元的交易。2004年8月，影子团队登上了《福布斯》杂志封面，标题是'谁在窃取你的身份？'2004年10月26日，美国特勤局在六小时内于六个国家逮捕了33人。

Alright? Secret service ends up I think they ended up cataloging like $7,000,000 worth of transactions over the next four or five months. Shadow crew makes the front cover of Forbes, August 2004. Headline, who's stealing your identity? 10/26/2004, United States Secret Service arrest 33 people, six countries, six hours.

当时我在南卡罗来纳州的查尔斯顿，亲眼目睹了这一切发生，我当时就想——

I was in Charleston, South Carolina when I saw it happen, and I'm like

所以你就是...你就是那个...

So you're you're you're the one

逃脱的人？我是被公开的那个，其实还有几个没被公开提及的漏网之鱼。其中一个叫'创'，他是'零号'？没错。

that got away? I'm the one public there were a couple other guys that got away that they didn't publicly mention. One, his his name was Tron. He was a The Zero? Yeah.

完全正确。他用'创'这个网名，几乎能不受限制地进入美国银行的系统。后来他们锁定了这个人，特勤局立刻派飞机去抓人，还联系了乌克兰警方。

Exactly. But he went by the screen name Tron. He had access, almost unfettered access to Bank of America. So what happens is they identified the guy, secret services in the air to go get him. They call the Ukrainian police.

'听着，我们要来逮捕这家伙。'乌克兰警察说'行啊，来吧'。结果电话一挂，乌克兰警察就开车去通知创：'嘿，他们要来抓你了'。

Hey. We're coming down to arrest this guy. Ukrainian cops are like, oh, come on down. So as soon as they got off the phone, Ukrainian cops get in the car, go down and tell Tron, hey. They're they're coming to get you.

没错。所以他逃去了南美洲，之后大概六七年都没被抓到。

Yeah. So he bugs out down to South America, and they don't catch him, I think, for six or seven years

之后，类似‘最终抓住了他’这样的话。最终抓住了他。那么，让我就这一点问问你。你说如果最终从事网络犯罪，结局不会好。

after that, something like Caught him eventually. Caught him eventually. Well, let me actually ask you on this point. You said that if you do cybercrime eventually, it's not gonna end well.

结局确实不会好。

It does not end well.

为什么这么说？

Why is that?

我不想说是因为你最终会被捕——老实说，被抓的人很少。但结局不好是因为你会变成什么样的人。你之前引用过我的话，你对周围所有人撒谎。你欺骗自己，欺骗朋友，欺骗家人。

So I don't want to say that's because you're going to be arrested because honestly, very few people are arrested. Alright? But it doesn't end well because of the type of person that that you become. You quoted me earlier, you lie to everybody around you. You lie to yourself, you lie to your friends, you lie to your family.

当然，你也欺骗受害者。你没有真正的朋友。你知道吗，我有二十年没有朋友。只有熟人，没有朋友。你无法真正信任任何人。

Of course, you lie to your victims. You don't have any friends. You know, I went twenty years without friends. I had associates, I didn't have friends. And you can't truly trust anyone.

你不信任任何人。真的谁都不信。我曾有妻子，结婚九年，那九年里我每天都在对她撒谎。她花了九年才放弃我，意识到我就是个混蛋然后离开。之后我开始和一个脱衣舞女约会，也对她撒谎。

You don't trust anybody. You don't trust anybody. You know, I had my wife, I was married for nine years, I lied to her every single day of those nine years. And it took her nine years to give up on me, to realize that I was that piece of shit and she leaves at that point. Then from there I started dating a stripper and lied to her.

我撒谎以为我有朋友，我对所有以为是我朋友的人撒谎，自始至终都在骗他们。你会变成那样的人。我觉得很多人并不真正明白这有多糟糕。你提到过那个被我骗的女人，她当时正拼命想给孩子们弄个遮风挡雨的屋顶。

Lied I thought I had friends, I lied to all those people that I knew that thought they were my friends, I lied to them the entire time. You become that individual. I don't think a lot of people really understand how bad that is. You know, you talked about you you pointed out that woman that I ripped off. She was trying to put a a roof on her house for her freaking kids, man.

你就是那个人。你就是那个人。所以你也在欺骗自己，

You're that person. You're that person. So you're also lying to yourself,

而这种心态无法让你成长、找到幸福、获得真挚简单的人间温情——那才是爱的本质。是的。简单真实的友谊，所有这些。

and that's not a mindset in which you can grow as a person, find happiness, find genuine simple human affection, which is what love is. Yeah. Simple, real friendship, all of those things.

没错。所以我，你知道，我当然进过监狱。我在监狱学到最重要的一课就是：网络犯罪乃至所有犯罪，对罪犯而言都是一种瘾。明白吗？无论你对什么上瘾——毒品、犯罪、赌博等等——当你沉迷某物时，除了那个瘾，你无法爱上任何其他东西。

Right. So I, you know, I went to prison, of course. One of the things one of the most important lessons that I have that I've learned in prison, because cyber crime crime as a whole, if you're a criminal, it's an addiction. Alright? If you're addicted to something, whether it be drugs, crime, gambling, what have you, if you're addicted to something, you cannot love anything else except the addiction.

成瘾性永远排在第一位。明白吗？而且，你指出了那些真正卑劣的行径。比如脚本折磨那个人。你会逐渐觉得：好吧，这就是生意。

The addiction comes first. Alright? And, you know, you pointed out some of those truly despicable things. Script, for example, tortures that guy. You get to the point where it's like, okay, this is the business.

而且，你知道，我曾试图说服自己是个商人，但在另一面是个好人。但其实你不是。根本不是。于是这些谎言成为你的一部分，其他所有东西也是。你知道的...高层通常会被捕。

And, you know, I I tried to convince myself that, you know, I'm a businessman, but I'm a good guy on the other end. And you're not. You're not. So those lies become part of it, everything else, and, you know, it's yeah. You get the higher ups are usually arrested.

确实如此。但如今有数百万网络罪犯，大多数人不会被捕。你可能被捕，也可能像乔纳森·詹姆斯那样——他未成年时就入侵了NASA、国防部、五角大楼，让NASA系统瘫痪六周。

They are. But, you know, you've got millions of cybercriminals these days, so most guys are not gonna be arrested. So you may be arrested. You may you may be like freaking Jonathan James. He was a minor, a very very talented individual, very competent.

这孩子后来转向信用卡盗窃，与阿尔伯特合作。最终和阿尔伯特一起被捕。

He had as a kid, he had broken into NASA, DOD, Pentagon. He shut the NASA computers down for six weeks. This is that kid. Then he decides he wants to go into credit card theft, partners with Albert. He's arrested with Albert.

执法部门，他们打算把责任推给他。他是唯一有能力的人。于是这个孩子某天起床，那时他还没入狱。某天他起床，走进父亲的卧室，拿出一把45口径手枪，走进浴室开枪自尽。你知道，这种事时有发生。或者你会诈骗别人，最终像那个入侵Evolution Marketplace的家伙一样被剧本化处理。

Law enforcement, they were going on they were going to blame him. He was the only competent individual. So this kid gets up one day, he wasn't in prison yet. He gets up one day, goes in his dad's bedroom, gets out as 45, walks in the bathroom and blows his brains out. You know, you've got you've got things like that or Or you're gonna rip somebody off and you're gonna end up like scripted with that guy, the guy who hit who ran Evolution Marketplace.

没人知道是谁在运营那个网站，一男一女。没人知道他们的真实身份。他最终偷走了约2400万美元，其中大部分来自乌克兰黑帮，大约一年后人们在沙滩上发现了他的无头无手尸体。但你知道，这种事总会走向悲剧。但对我来说，最负面的是你真的会变成那种人——我是说，彻底堕落的人渣。

No one knew who two people ran that, the guy and a girl. And no one knew who they were. He ends up stealing about $24,000,000, a lot of it from Ukrainian mob, and they found him about a year later on a beach without his head and hands. But, you know, it always goes south. But more than anything, to me, the negative thing is is you really become somebody that I mean, just truly a despicable human being.

当你发展到开始摧毁人们的退休账户时，当你从只想为家人做点好事的女人那里偷钱时，当你变成那种人还心安理得时...天啊老兄。我记得刚开始网络犯罪时，有个被我骗了900美元的人。那是我刚入门的时候。

When you get to the point when you're you're you're destroying people's retirement accounts, You're stealing money from a woman that simply wants to do something good for her family. When you when you become that individual and you're okay with that, my God, man. I got to the point I had one guy ripped off. It's like for $900 is when I first started the cybercrime stuff. It was when I was becoming competent.

我骗了他大概900美元，他给我发了封邮件说：'我猜你需要这笔钱，没关系，你留着吧'。现在想起来我浑身发冷，但就是这种时刻让你彻底堕落。

And I ripped him off for like $900 and he sent me an email and he was like the email said something like, I guess you needed the money and it's okay. You know, you keep it. I'm getting chills right now thinking about it, but it's that where you become that individual. Yeah.

我能插个话吗？听着，我热爱爱情。真的。

Can I actually backtrack? I listen. I love love. Okay? I do.

听说你爱上过脱衣舞娘？你得讲讲这个故事。不是说这个职业有什么问题，但这很浪漫。就像《真实罗曼史》那部电影——顺便说那是部好片子。

And there's a story that you fell in love with the stripper. Mean, you have to tell the So how did you fall in love with somebody not that there's anything wrong with that profession, but it's it's it's romantic. It's like a true romance, by the way, great movie. It is a

确实是部杰作。真正的经典。

great film. It's truly a great film.

就连布拉德·皮特那惊鸿一瞥的客串也堪称神来之笔，整部片演技爆棚。好了，快给我讲讲那个爱情故事。行吧，那就从'小污点'说起。

Even even Brad Pitt, who makes a brief appearance is is genius. There's so much good acting there. Anyway, so tell me that love story. Alright. So Small taint.

你知道吗，就像我说的，我从父亲那里继承了这种被抛弃的恐惧。我骗了我妻子九年，直到她离开。当时我在南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿。事情是这样的，我注意到苏珊开始不像从前那样按时就寝，她整夜不睡，有时还会消失几个小时。

You know what, like I said, I get from my dad, I get that fear of being abandoned. You know, I lied to my wife for nine years until she leaves. And I was in Charleston, South Carolina. And what happened was I noticed that Susan, she was not coming to bed like, you know, she used to. She'd stay up all night long, and sometimes she'd go and be gone a few hours and everything else.

我就觉得不对劲。每次经过她的电脑，她都会立刻最小化窗口。我想必须搞清楚到底怎么回事，于是就在她电脑上装了键盘记录器。

And I'm like, well, something's going on. And I'd I'd pass by her her computer and she would minimize the screens. And I'm like, well, gotta figure out what the hell is going on. So put a key logger on her system.

恋爱中的人都该这么干。

As any anybody should in a relationship.

当然。因为你信任他们嘛。嗯。对。没毛病。

Absolutely. Because you trust them. Yeah. Okay. Sure.

所以干嘛不呢？你就该监控

So why not? You should be tracking

他们的一举一动，完全正确。

all their movements, all their Exactly.

没错。就像我说的，我也是个控制狂。

Exactly. Like I said, I was the control freak too.

这很浪漫。

It's romantic.

我发现她一直在欺骗我

I found out she had been cheating on me

而且她其实是史蒂夫，给你。他们是有原因的。

and she was Steve, here you go. They had a reason.

他们是有原因的。我试图合理化。我发现她在出轨。讽刺的是，当我发现时她正在睡觉，我坐在那里盯着证据，心想：好吧，完蛋了。于是我起身走进卧室，打开衣柜，拿出一个行李箱，开始把她的衣服往里塞。

They had a reason. I justified. I found out she was cheating. Mean, she was asleep when I found it out, I sat there looking at it and I was like, well, shit. So got up, walked in the bedroom, opened up the wardrobe, got a suitcase out, started putting her clothes in it.

然后她醒了。她问：你要去哪？我说：不是我走，是你走。不过我的虚张声势很快就消失了。

Then she wakes up. She's like, where are you going? I'm like, I'm not. You are. Well, my bravado disappeared pretty quickly.

我们经历了大约一周的哭泣、争吵和各种折腾，她终于离开了。我陷入了抑郁——当时我在南卡罗来纳州的查尔斯顿。我整天在房子里恍惚地游荡，意识到自己开始有自杀倾向后还算清醒地采取了行动——我翻开电话簿（生活总带着幽默感），在黄页里找心理学家，最后选了位犯罪心理学家，因为我需要这种硬核治疗。我哭着给她打了电话。

I took about a week of both of us crying and arguing and everything else, and she finally left and I went through this depression. I went I was in Charleston, South South Carolina. I would just walk around the house kind of stumbling in a daze, realized I was getting suicidal and was smart enough to do something about it picked up the phone book and that's where there's always a sense of humor. I picked up the phone book, I'm going through the yellow pages, I'm like psychologist, criminal psychologist because I need that. Called this psychologist, crying to her.

我是说，在电话里哭诉，把一切都告诉了她。我就是这个罪犯。这就是发生的事。她说，现在立刻过来。于是我就去了，倾吐心声，然后见了她大约四个月。

I mean, crying on the phone, told her everything. I'm this criminal. This is what's happened. She's like, come in now. So I go in, spill my guts, and saw her for about four months.

我开玩笑这么说，但这是真的。她试图让我停止违法，转行做房地产。我记得我问她，这有区别吗？她说，当然有区别。

And I joke about it, but it's true. She she was trying to get me to stop breaking the law and to go into real estate. And I remember telling her, is there a difference? She was like, yes. There's a difference.

所以我见了她大约四个月。那时我34岁。我直到34岁才开始喝酒。我从未吸毒或做过类似的事，因为我妈妈也是个瘾君子。所以我一直是个想掌控一切的人，不想失去自我控制，也从未去过脱衣舞俱乐部。

So I saw her for about four months. I was I was 34. I didn't start drinking until I was 34. I had never done drugs or anything else like that because my mom was an addict as well. So I I I was this guy that always wanted to be in control, didn't wanna, you know, lose control of myself and had never been to a strip club.

有一天晚上，我感到孤独。于是走进了一家脱衣舞俱乐部。其实我是在‘调研’那家店，那是南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿的‘乔的围捕’。乔的围捕。乔的围捕。

So one night, I was getting lonely. So I walked into the strip club. Actually, I was researching the strip club, and it was Joe's Roundup in Charleston, South Carolina. Joe's Roundup. Joe's Roundup.

就是那种墙洞里的小破店。是啊，相当‘高雅’。我走进去，毫不夸张地说，我就是那种会对看到的第一个脱衣舞女一见钟情的男人。她从我身边走过。

Little bitty hole in the wall stuff. I was yeah. Real classy. So I walked in, and I'm literally that guy, man, that fell in love with the the first the first stripper that he sees. She walks by.

我就想，就她了？其实我根本不懂脱衣舞俱乐部的规矩。再说一次，我是个罪犯，天真得要命。于是我在吧台坐下，点了杯啤酒，坐在那儿喝着。

I'm like, that one? So I didn't know I didn't know the strip club game. I'm, again, criminal, naive as hell. So belly up at the bar, order the beer. I'm sitting there drinking it.

她走过来，我们开始聊天，她说，你想来瓶香槟吗？我问，这是不是意味着要去后面？她说，嗯对，买瓶酒才能去后面。我说，好啊，那就来瓶香槟吧。

She comes over to me, and we start talking, and she's like, would you like to get a bottle of champagne? I was like, does that mean going in back or what? She's like, well, yeah, you need to do the bottle to go in back. And was like, sure. Let's buy a bottle of champagne.

400美元的科贝尔酒。哇哦。我当时就想，好吧。但很快那种虚张声势就消失了。我回到那里，我们聊了两个小时。

$400 bottle of Corbel. Wow. So I'm like, alright. So then again, that bravado disappears pretty quickly. I get back there and we talk for two hours.

你知道，现在很多去脱衣舞俱乐部的男人，舞女们大多成了他们的心理治疗师。明白吗？所以我坐在那儿聊天。我们在交谈。当然，她也在打量我。

And, you know, nowadays, I don't understand that most men who go to strip clubs, the strippers are their therapist most of the time. Alright? So I'm sitting there talking. We're talking. Of course, she's she's sizing me up.

她看着手表，问我开什么车之类的。我就告诉她，继续聊着。到了晚上结束时，我说这次见面真的很愉快。

She's looking at the watch. She's like, what kind of car you drive? You know, everything else. And I'm like telling her and talking. So at the end of the night, I'm like, really nice meeting.

她也说见到你也很高兴。然后我就离开了。

She's like, it's so nice meeting you too. So I leave.

所以你们就只是聊了聊，

So you guys just talked and

就只是聊天。而且没有任何阻隔

Just talked. And there's no damping

爱的感觉之类的。

feeling of love and all that.

是啊。就是聊了聊，你知道，相处得挺好的。我就觉得，我喜欢她。我喜欢她。所以一周后我又去了，走进去叫她过来，我就说，听着，我说，我...我说，那是我第一次去脱衣舞俱乐部。

Yeah. So just talked, you know, got along pretty good. I'm like, I like her. I like her. So come back in a week later, walk in and call her over and I was like, look, I said, I'm not I said, it was my first time to a strip club.

我说，不认识你，但喜欢你，想多了解你。愿意一起吃个饭吗？她说好啊。我问想去哪里？她说约翰街。

I said, don't know you, like you, I'd like to know you more. Would you like to go out to dinner? And she was like, yeah. I was like, where would you like to go? So she says, Rue De John.

我当时就想，管它是什么地方呢？就去那儿吧。后来我回去时...那时候我有个剧院朋友，因为当时我正在努力重整生活。他叫JC。

And I was like, don't know what it is? That's where we'll go. So I go back and I was I had a theater buddy at that point in time because I was trying to get my life yeah. Trying to get my life together. JC was his name.

我就说，我约到人了。他一脸震惊：你约到人了？我说对啊兄弟。他说行吧。

And I was like, I got a date. He's like, he got a date? I was like, yeah, man. I got a date. And he's like, okay.

他问去哪儿？我说约翰街。他说记得带钱包。我说知道。他重复说记得带钱包。

Where are you going? And I was like, Ruta John. And he's like, take your wallet. I'm like, yeah. He's like, take your wallet.

我说好吧。后来我们开始约会吃饭，我越来越喜欢她。我当时34岁，她23岁，我们很合得来，有共同语言，都喜欢音乐艺术这些。她...怎么说呢，很典型的那种...

I was like, all right. So we start doing the lunch and the dinner thing and I get to where I really like her. A I was 34. She was 23 and got along really well, listened you know, had common interest in music and arts and and stuff like that. She had I mean, a stereotypical.

她大学刚毕业，拿的是宗教研究学位。

She was she had graduated college with a degree in religious studies.

哇。

Wow.

是啊。所以我就想，好吧。所以

Yeah. So I was like, alright. So

所以，没错，你就是坠入爱河了。

So, yeah, you just fell in love.

是啊。我们我们我们相处得特别好，真的特别好。所以最后我让她搬来和我一起住。她当时还没辞职。情况是她周末在夜店工作，你知道的，夜店凌晨三四点才打烊。

Yeah. We we we got along really well, really well. So I ended up moving her in with me. She hadn't quit her job. And what was happening was she was working weekends and, you know, the club would close at three or four.

她总要到早上十点十一点才回家。大多数时候会打电话让我去接她，说她没法自己开车回来。那时候我从不碰毒品，也从来没接触过那些。

She wouldn't come home until ten or eleven in the morning. And most of the time, it would be a phone call saying, come and pick me up. I can't drive home. Then I never used drugs. I'd never been around.

我妈会吃安定药之类的，但就和她相处而言，我从来没干过那种事。那时候我已经有点为她神魂颠倒了。我让她搬来和我同居，而我34岁了，这辈子从没翻过女人的包。那天她回来直接昏睡过去，我当时就想，我必须搞清楚到底他妈怎么回事。

My mom, Valium and pod and things like that, but as far as interacting with her, I'd never done anything like that. By this point in time, I'm kinda getting head over heels with her. I've moved her in with me and everything, and I had never I was 34. I had never went through a woman's purse in my entire life. And so she comes in, passes out, and I'm like, I gotta know what the fuck's going on.

于是我去翻她的包，发现了可卡因，还有剪短的吸管之类的东西。我整个人都崩溃了，就坐在那里哭了起来。后来我上网查资料——我这人很擅长搜集信息。我开始搜索脱衣舞俱乐部的论坛，找到了一个，发现上面有人讨论她为了维持毒瘾在卖淫的事。

And went over and went through her purse, found cocaine, and, you know, the straw cut off straws and all that stuff, and I'm like, broke my heart. I just sat there and started crying. Got online, and I'm the guy that can find information. So I started looking for forums on strip clubs. Found a forum, found that one, found where it was talking about her prostituting herself to support the habit.

这真的触动了我，老兄。真的触动了我。我一直在说她所做的那些事。真是让人心碎。唉，老兄。

And that got me, man. That got me. I was talking about everything she was doing to do that. Broke your heart there. Oh, man.

是啊。当时我...我实在不忍心告诉她我知道她是妓女。但我还是去找她，她刚醒来，我就说：我在你包里发现了这个。我不能接受这个。她反问：你觉得我在卖淫？

Yeah. When I I could I I didn't have the heart to tell her that I knew she was a prostitute. But I I went to her and I was like, she was waking up and I was like, look, I found this in your purse. I can't have that. And she's like, well, you think I'm prostituting?

我说：不，不，我没这么想。其实我知道，但没跟她提过。我只是说：我不能接受这个。

I was like, no. No. I don't think that. I knew it, but I didn't mention it to her. And I was like, I can't have that.

她说：我...我不干这个了，就这一次。我说：好吧。结果她又回去工作，继续干了几个星期。最后终于说：我受不了了。

Well, I I don't do that. It's just a one time thing. I was like, alright. So she went back to work and continued to do it for a couple more weeks. And then finally, was like, I can't.

有天早上我去接她，她当时...她已经没法开车回家了。接她前我写了张纸条放在她枕头上。我把她带回家，安顿在床上，告诉她晚上会回来。说等她醒来会看到一封信。

So I picked her up one morning. It was like she was she was she couldn't drive home. Before I picked her up, I had written her a note, left her on the pillow. So I brought her home, tucked her in the bed, and told her I'd be back that night. Told her she had a letter when she woke up woke up.

信里大概写着：我爱你。如果你戒不掉，就别在我回来时还在这里。那天我去了哥伦比亚，晚上回来时她已经辞职了。那晚她真的把毒戒了。彻底戒了。

And the letter was basically, you know, I love you. If you can't stop this, don't be here when I get back. And I went to Columbia that day, came back that night, and she had quit her job. And she quit drugs that night. Really quit them.

我当时铁了心要不惜一切代价阻止她重蹈覆辙。由于我的背景，这对我来说意味着大把花钱。于是每晚吃饭花300到600美元，每周买上千美元的鞋，2000美元的包，诸如此类。我大部分钱都洗到了爱沙尼亚。

And I got it in my head that I needed to do whatever I needed to do to make sure she didn't go back to that. That became that to me, because of my background, that meant spending a lot of money. And so every night was, you know, 3 to $600 for dinner. It was thousand dollar shoes every week, $2,000 purse every week, all that. I had most of my money laundered out to to Estonia.

而伊丽莎白，同一时间，她虽然辞职了，但她不想让我离开。好吧。她希望我一直陪着她。我想那就是那种羁绊。你知道，我猜她是害怕自己会重蹈覆辙。

And Elizabeth, the same time, she had she she quit, but she didn't want me to go anywhere. Alright. She wanted me there all the time. I guess that was that connection. You know, she I guess she was scared she might go back to something.

所以影子团队被查了。我开始——基本上花光了所有美国资金。海外资金也拿不到。影子团队十月份被查。我没法继续搞税务欺诈因为季节结束了。

So shadow crew gets busted. I start I go through basically all my US funds. Can't get anything from overseas. Shadow crew gets busted October. I can't go into committing tax fraud because season's over.

也不能回头做信用卡欺诈，因为影子团队已经被端了。我不知道网上还能信任谁。最后只能靠伪造银行本票来搞钱，想办法撑到，你知道，能开始其他欺诈为止，同时一直在对她撒谎。

Can't go back into credit fraud because Shadow crew's been busted. I don't know who to trust online. I'm left with running counterfeit cashier's checks to get money in, trying to make it until, you know, I can start back with some other fraud and lying to her the entire time.

她对这一切都毫不知情。

She she knows about none of this.

完全不知情。而且她以为我很有钱，她的消费品味也很高。同时，她无法亲密。我是说，那女孩爱我。我——这是我第一次真正这么说。

None of none of it. And she's got she thinks I've got a shitload of money and she's got expensive taste. So and at the same time, she couldn't be intimate. I mean, girl loved me. I I that's the first time I've really said that.

所以那里存在着双向的深爱。

So there's deep love there, both ways.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

我们所做的事。

The things we do.

所以她除非烂醉如泥，否则无法亲密。我是说，真是糟糕。烂醉如泥。而我，你知道，我无所谓。我不介意她喝酒。

So she she couldn't be intimate unless she was stone cold drunk. I mean, just shit. Stone cold drunk. And I, you know, I shit. I didn't mind her drinking alcohol.

我宁愿这样也不要可卡因。这就是我们的亲密方式。我一直抱着这个念头，觉得只要继续投入，总会好起来的。你知道，就是坚持下去。她会好起来的。

I'd rather have that than than cocaine. So that was the intimacy there. And I kept I had this I kept thinking if I continued to invest, that it would work out. You know, that just keep going. She'll be alright.

我们会好起来的。但就像我说的，她以为我有钱。她以为我有钱。她想要几枚蒂芙尼订婚戒指。所以我说，我们可以结婚。

We'll be alright. And what happens is is like I said, she thought I had money. She thought I had money. She wanted a couple of Tiffany engagement rings. So I I said, we can get married.

你知道，我想通过结婚证明我爱她，证明一切都会好起来。所以我说，哦，我们结婚吧。她很惊讶，说我一直想要蒂芙尼戒指。她说我没钱买蒂芙尼戒指，因为我的钱都在海外。

You know, I figured marriage, show her that I love her, show her it's gonna be alright. So I was like, oh, let's get married. She's like, wow. I've always wanted a Tiffany ring. She said, I didn't have money to buy the Tiffany ring because all my money was overseas.

于是我开始伪造假银行本票。我在eBay上找到一枚3克拉的戒指，20美元，用假本票支付。同时因为她不想我离开，她需要我在那里。通常做这种犯罪，你得四处流窜。

Here So I am. I defraud counterfeit cashiers. I find a, like, a three carat ring on eBay for $20 and pay for it with a counterfeit cashier's check. At the same time, because she doesn't want me to leave, she needs me there. Typically, if you're doing that type of crime, you need to be traveling.

你不能在一个固定区域作案，因为很快会被发现。我知道这点，但别无选择。于是开始用假本票弄钱维持生活和买订婚戒指。我们原定于2005年2月26日结婚。

You can't do it in one central area because you're gonna be identified pretty quickly. I knew that, but I didn't have much choice. So start running counterfeit cashier's checks to get the money to to live and everything and get the get the engagement ring. We were scheduled to be married. Our wedding date was 02/26/2005.

2005年2月8日。我有个蒂芙尼婚戒，当时订了几个，结果在南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿被抓了。她完全不知情。我跟她说我得去取戒指，她还以为我是让人送过来。

02/08/2005. I'm I've got a Tiffany wedding band, couple of them coming in, and I get arrested in Charleston, South Carolina. And she didn't know. I told her I said, I've gotta go pick up those rings. She didn't she thought I was just having them sent in.

所以我得去取戒指，还说取完一起吃晚饭。我早上8点左右出门，大概11点半就被捕了。当然我想打电话给她，但FBI已经盯上我了。后来才知道这是场控制交付行动，停车场里埋伏了差不多30个探员。

So I gotta go get those rings, and I said, we'll go out to dinner after that. And I left at, like, 08:00 in the morning, and I was arrested at, I think, 11:30, something like that. Of course, I wanted to call her, you know, and the FBI got me. It turns out it was it was controlled delivery. There were, like, 30 agents in the parking lot.

FBI抓了我，查尔斯顿警方也来了。不到45分钟，特勤局就接管了调查。他们很清楚抓的是谁。晚上7点左右，他们说想搜查我家。

FBI got me. Charleston PD got me. Within forty five minutes, the Secret Service comes in, takes over that investigation. They knew exactly who they had. Long about 07:00 at night, they're like, we wanna search your house.

我就说，如果你们让我跟去见她，我就同意搜查。他们答应了。那时我才拿到手机，发现她有140多个未接来电——她很担心吧？

And I was like, look, I'll sign off on the search if you let me go with you so I can see her. And they were like, okay. So I got to see my phone at that point. I had like a 140 calls that she where she had been trying to call that time. She was worried?

没错。他们押我上车时，场面夸张极了，十几辆车，40多个探员，还带了警犬。我怕他们会开枪打狗。天很黑，他们让我走在前面，所有人跟在我后面。

Yeah. And so they load me up and held I mean, you talk about ten, twelve cars, you know, 40 agents, everything else. She's got a dog at that point. I'm scared they're gonna shoot the dog. And it was dark, and they had me walk up and they're all behind me.

我敲门告诉她警察来了，得把狗关起来。她照做后，警察冲进来翻箱倒柜，给我戴上手铐按在地上，开始连珠炮般审问她。她根本不知道发生了什么。

I knock on the door and tell her the police are there and she needs to put the dog up. So she does, and they come in and just start ransacking them to put put me in cuffs, set me down, start berating her with questions. She had no idea what the hell was going on.

你有机会说几句话让她明白情况吗？

Were you able to say a word or two to help her understand?

是的，我正想告诉她。与此同时，他们他们他们从她手腕上摘下了手表，却让她留着戒指。他们告诉她我就是那个人。

Yeah. I was trying to tell her. And at the same time, they're they're they take a watch off her wrist. They let her keep the ring. They're telling her that I'm this guy.

我的真名是什么？邦邦邦邦邦，全面覆盖。

What's my real name? Bang bang bang bang bang across across the board.

所以她可能吓坏了。

So she's probably terrified.

哦，是啊。是啊。是啊。我跟她说，听着，他们明天要提审我，别来。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I tell her, I was like, look, they're gonna arraign me tomorrow. Don't come.

别来。我说了，了解情况就好，但别露面。结果第二天早上她还是来了，她和她的父亲。她在后面哭得不行。

Don't come. I said, see what's going on, but don't show up. Of course, she's there the next morning. Her her her and her dad. And she's she's back in the back crying.

他们宣读着指控。我被定了30万美元的保释金，诸如此类。就这样，他们把我扔进了牢房。与此同时，更多指控接踵而至。

They're reading off the charges. I'm under $300,000 bond, everything else. And that's it. I they throw me in a cell. Meanwhile, more charges keep coming in.

你知道吗？那时候每天都有十到十二项新指控，我拼命打电话想确认她是否安好。电话能接通吗？结果我在监狱里待了三个月，期间她只来探望过两次。

You know? And it's like ten, twelve charges a day at that point, and I'm trying to call her to make sure she's alright. And Does it get through? So I spent three months in jail. And during that three months, she visits twice.

我大概给她打了三四个电话。现在回想起来，我明白为什么了。你知道，那时候我觉得自己才是受害者。心想她为什么不理我？但现在我懂了。

I get, like, three or four phone calls to her. I under looking back now, I understand why. You know, back then, was like, I'm the victim. You know, why doesn't she talk to me? But, you know, now I understand why.

见鬼，那姑娘也爱过我。你知道吗？后来她发现我就是个混蛋。在县监狱待了一周后，两个新泽西来的探员，两个特勤局的人，把我从牢房提出来，盯着我说：'我们拿到你的笔记本了'。我只能回答'是啊'。

Hell, the girl loved me too. You know? And then she found out I was this piece of shit. And after a week in county jail, two agents fly in from New Jersey, two secret service guys, pulled me out of the cell, looked at me and they're like, we got your laptop. And I was like, yeah.

他又问：'你电脑里有什么东西吗？'我说'有'。他说：'你会因此被起诉'。我回：'我猜到了'。然后他盯着我看。

And he's like, well, have you got anything on your laptop? And I was like, yeah. He's like, you're gonna be charged for it. I was like, I figured. And then he looks at me.

他说：'能为我们做点什么吗？'我原话告诉他：'听着，只要你们让我和伊丽莎白复合，让我干什么都行'。他就那样看着我。

He's like, can you do anything for us? And I told him my exact words were, look. You let me get back with Elizabeth. I'll do whatever you want me to do. And he looks at me.

他说：'我们会把你弄出去'。我说：'好吧'。结果他们让我在里面又蹲了三个月，就是为了让我尝尝滋味——

He's like, we're gonna get you out. I was like, alright. So they let me sit there for three months to get a taste of

嗯哼。

it Mhmm.

最后才放我出来。我姐姐他们把保释金降到一千美元。我姐付了这一千块。那时候她已经和我断绝关系了，因为我在和脱衣舞女郎约会。是丹尼斯把我保出来的。

And get me out. My sister they have the bond reduced to a thousand dollars. My sister pays the thousand dollar bond. By this point, she's disowned me because I'm dating the stripper. Denise bonds me out.

我第一个打电话的人是伊丽莎白。我出来了。她说她会过来。我说好的。那时大概是晚上11点。

The person that I call immediately is Elizabeth. I'm out. She's like, I'll be there. I was like, okay. So this is, like, 11:00 at night.

我站在查尔斯顿警察局查尔斯顿县监狱的停车场里。我和一名特勤局特工站在那里，伊丽莎白有个朋友经营一家豪华轿车公司。她开着一辆加长轿车来了，下车打开后备箱，拿出两个装着我衣服的塑料箱，放在路边，走过来拥抱我，说晚点联系。然后上车开走了。我坐在那里哭得像个孩子。

I'm in the parking lot of the Charleston police Charleston County Jail. Me and a secret service agent standing there, and Elizabeth had a friend that owned a limo company. So she pulls up in a limo, gets out, pops the trunk, gets these two plastic containers out that have my clothes in them, drops off the pavement, comes over, hugs me, call me later. Gets in the car, drives off. I'm sitting there crying like a baby.

特工看着我问，那是你未婚妻？我说是的。他说，我真的很抱歉。我说是啊。所以我

Agent looks at me, is that your fiance? I'm like, yeah. He's like, I am so sorry. I'm like, yeah. So I

她听起来真了不起。是啊。开着加长轿车来。她

had Well, she sounds fascinating. Yeah. Pull up in a limo. She

那时我身上只有30美元。真的就30美元。第一晚的酒店房间还是那个特工帮我付的。他付完房费后送我过去，还给我买了吃的。

had $30 to my name at that point. Yeah. $30. The agent had to pay for my hotel room that first night. So he drops me off after paying for the hotel room, buy me something to eat.

他一走，我就拿着那30美元，走了半英里到沃尔玛，买了张预付借记卡，好重新开始搞税务欺诈。回到酒店房间后，我给伊丽莎白打电话，求她来见我。她来了，我们聊了大半夜，我说服她再给我一次机会。我告诉她一切都会好起来的，他们会雇用我的。

Soon as he drops me off, I take that $30, walk a half mile to Walmart, buy a prepaid debit card so I can start back in tax fraud. So as I get back to the hotel room, call Elizabeth, beg her to come see me. She comes to see me, we talk most of the night and convince her to give me a chance. I tell her that I I everything's gonna be alright. They're gonna hire me.

我会成为厉害的咨询顾问。都是谎言。就为了让她回到我身边。然后她说，好吧。

I'm gonna be this big consultant. Lies. Lies. Just so she get back with me. And she's like, okay.

于是我们从查尔斯顿搬走了。外勤办公室在南卡罗来纳州的哥伦比亚市，而我在违法。甚至在我开始为他们工作之前，我就已经在违法了。所以他们把我安排在外勤办公室，那里有个很大的作战室。

And so we moved from from Charleston. The field office is in Columbia, South Carolina and I'm breaking the law. Even before I start working with them, I'm breaking the law. And so they've got me in the office, the field offices. They got this big war room in there.

我在用笔记本电脑外接专线，笔记本连在墙上的50英寸等离子显示器上。他们在我旁边放了台台式机也连着专线，房间里随时有两名特勤局官员和一名南卡罗来纳州执法官。嗯哼。每天工作四到六小时，上网搜集目标情报，教他们网络犯罪如何运作之类的。头两周他们特别认真。

I'm on a laptop outside line, laptops hooked up to a 50 inch plasma monitor on the wall. They've got a desktop sitting directly next to me outside line, two secret service offices officers in the room at all times with a South Carolina law enforcement officer. Mhmm. Job is four to six hours a day surfing the web, picking up targets, intel, teaching them how cybercrime operates, everything else like that. For the first two weeks, they are extremely diligent.

他们密切关注所有动态，提问各种问题。但问题是这种破事很快就变得无聊透顶，因为我上网操作速度非常快。他们就像在说：这家伙到底在搞什么？盯着一个人干这种事实在让人疲惫。所以两周后他们开始偷懒无聊，改看黄片而不是监视我了。

They pay attention to everything that's going on, ask questions, everything else. But the problem is is that that shit gets boring real quick because I'm I'm very fast online doing that. So they're they're like, what the hell is he doing? It gets tiring looking at a guy just doing that shit. So after two weeks, they get lazy and bored and they start watching porn instead of watching me.

与此同时，他们装了键盘记录器，还用了Spectre Pro和Camtasia软件。键盘记录器会记录我所有操作，每晚数据都会刻录到光盘上。我就想：他们才不会翻看这些破玩意儿。所以我干脆破罐子破摔。

At the same time, they've got a keylogger and they've got they've got Spectre Pro and Camtasia. Keyloggers and taking snapshots of everything that I'm doing. It go every night it goes on a DVD ROM on a spindle. So I'm like, they're not gonna go through that shit. So I'm like, fuck it.

直接在特勤局办公室里当着他们的面违法。有何不可？这种状态持续了十个月。与此同时，我和伊丽莎白的关系也彻底破裂了。

Start breaking law from inside the secret service offices while they're in the room. Why not? That continues for ten months. At the same time, the relationship with Elizabeth fell apart, completely fell apart.

你明白原因吗？就是因为谎言伤了她的心。

You have an understanding of why? It's just because of the her heart got broken because there was lying.

是信任问题。

It was the trust.

她觉得她付出了很多。是的。为这段关系做出了牺牲。

She felt like she did a lot Yeah. To sacrifice for the the relationship.

你遇到的那个女人，她甚至亲口说过。有次我们晚上出去吃饭时——那是在我被捕之前——她告诉她的一个朋友，说我是唯一一个要求她戒掉毒品的男人。

You've got you got a woman there that she had even said it. She was like she had told one of her friends we were out having dinner one night, and this is before I got arrested. She told one of her friends that I was the only guy that ever asked her to stop using drugs.

是的。是的。是的。我是说，我不得不说故事的这部分非常非常有力。而且是她选择这么做的，她选择了

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I have to say that that that part of the story is so is so powerful. And And that she chose to do it, and she chose to

戒掉。她还告诉过我，有次她说如果不嫁给我，她就永远不会结婚。据我所知，她确实至今未婚。

to stop. And she told me that there's one instance she told me that if she if she didn't marry me, she'd never be married. And as far as I know, she's never been married.

所以关系就是从那时开始破裂的。是的。因为

And so it started to fall apart there. Yeah. Because

我当时就是个混蛋。

I was a piece of shit.

尽管如此，你当时没有采取行动。顺便说一句，我能否表达一下你的坦诚有多么感人？谢谢你。谢谢你能这样坦诚。但那时候，你还在说谎。

Still, you didn't take a step. By the way, can I just say how just moving it is, how honest you are, but thank you? Thank you for being that person. But at that time, you there's still that lying.

天啊。是啊。是啊。是啊。一切都分崩离析了。

Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's falling apart.

她突然想去脱衣舞俱乐部，我想，管他呢。去就去吧。于是我们开始去脱衣舞俱乐部，她每次回来都喝得烂醉，然后我们发生关系，诸如此类。有天晚上她看着我说，她觉得如果我和别人发生关系会很有趣。

She had she wants to start going to strip clubs and I'm like, fuck it. Why not? Let her we'll go. So we start going to strip clubs and she's know, she'll come back and be get wasted and we'll have sex, what have you. And one night, she looks at me and she was like she was like, I think it'd be funny if you got a blowjob from somebody else.

这句话彻底击垮了我。对我来说这就是最后一根稻草。我觉得她已经不在乎我了。既然我们总去脱衣舞俱乐部，我就开始和另一个脱衣舞女郎约会了。

And that got me. That got me. I was like to me, that was the final straw right there. I was like, she doesn't care for me anymore or anything else like that. We've been going to strip clubs, so I started dating another stripper.

她察觉到了异常。有天她看着我说：你为什么不直接告诉我结束了？我看着她说：结束了。我们完了。我还对她说：听着。

And she knew something was going on. And she looks at me one day, and she's like, why don't you just tell me that it's over? And I looked at her and I said, it's over. We're done. And I told her, I was like, look.

我说：你想要什么都拿走。我们租的公寓里，你看中什么就拿什么。不仅如此，我还会确保你有足够几个月的生活费。只要给我留下电视和几个盘子就行。

I said, whatever you want. We're we're renting an apartment. I was like, whatever you want in here, take it. And I said, not only that, but I'll make sure you got money for for for several months so you're alright. I was like, Just leave my TV and leave me some plates and stuff.

那天我去特勤局上班，晚上回来发现她把所有东西都搬走了，只在卧室地板上留了张自己的照片。我想，好吧，这是我应得的。

So I go to work that day at the Secret Service, come back that night, and she's taken everything and left a picture of herself in the bedroom on the floor. I'm like, okay. I guess I deserve that.

她...我喜欢她。她确实...呃...曾经

She's got I like her. She's got a Yeah. Was

酷。她挺酷的。我每两周就给她一千美元干这种破事，直到事情败露——因为我在办公室里搞税务诈骗。借记卡公司开始监控这些卡，他们发现有个混蛋在用我们的卡偷钱。

cool. She was cool. I'm So giving her a thousand dollars like every two weeks for some shit like this, and it gets to the point because I'm doing this tax fraud from inside the offices. Well, the debit card companies are pinging the cards. They start to realize that, hey, some son of a bitch is stealing money using our debit card.

于是他们在我取现前就把卡停了。我开始没钱给她。她打电话来催：‘我需要那笔钱。’我只能说：‘我在尽力了，你答应过我的。’

So they start to shut down the cards before I can pull cash out. So I start not to have the money to send to her. And I'm like, so I she calls and she's like, look, I I have that money. And I was like, well, look, I'm doing what I can. You promised money.

我说：‘你要是知道我弄这钱的代价，就不会这么问了。’她却说：‘我急需钱，房租已经拖欠一个月了。’我反问：‘你房租拖欠了？’她答：‘是啊。’

And I was like, look, if you knew what I was doing to get this money, you wouldn't be asking that. And she's like, I need money. My rent's behind by a month right now. I'm like, your rent's behind? She's like, yeah.

于是我打给租房办公室：‘我想确认下，抱歉拖欠了XX号的房租。’对方说：‘没有啊，房租预付了三个月。’

So I was like, okay. So I pick up the phone, call the rental office. I was like, just want to make sure that I'm sorry I'm behind on the rent for this apartment number. Oh, no. That rent's paid up three months.

我挂掉电话打给伊丽莎白·贝克：‘你说房租拖欠了？’她承认：‘对。’

It's like, okay. Hang up. Call Elizabeth Beck. I was like, you're behind on the rent. And she was like, yeah.

我说：‘有意思，他们说你预付了三个月。’她突然沉默，然后说：‘你也骗过我。’我承认：‘没错，我是骗过你。’

And I was like, funny. They just say you're up on it three months. And she gets quiet and she's like, well, you lied to me too. And I was like, you're right. I did.

‘我确实那么干了。但听着，我不能再继续了。’——那就是我和她最后的对话，就在那一刻。

I did that. Yeah. And I was like, but look, I I can't do it anymore. And that's the last time I spoke to her. Right there.

事情是这样的，我当时在办公室内部违法。我有个朋友叫肖恩·明斯，来自洛杉矶。我教过他怎么做退税诈骗。我跟肖恩说我要消失，明白吗？

What happens is is I was breaking law from inside the offices. I had a buddy that his name was Sean Mims out of Los Angeles. I had taught him how to do tax return fraud. I told Sean I go missing. Right?

我消失了三个月。所以我告诉过他，如果我突然消失不要联系我。然后我消失了，之后我又在网上出现。第一天他就联系我了。于是他成了目标，他们很快就锁定了他。

I go missing for three months. So I told him if I ever went missing not to contact me. And so I go missing, then I show back up online. First day, he contacts. So he becomes a target, and they identify him pretty quickly at that point.

他原定在06年3月会被逮捕。那次行动代号叫'滚石行动'。当晚本来要逮捕九个人。结果特勤局去抓了这家伙。

He's set to be arrested sometime in March of of six. That's when he's set to be arrested. Operation Rolling Stone was the name of the operation. Nine people were supposed to be arrested that night. So Secret Service goes and goes and arrests this guy.

他们搜查他的公寓却一无所获。公寓经理出来解释说肖恩对公寓做了各种装修。事实上他还运了三万美元的意大利瓷砖来铺这个租来的公寓。对了，昨晚他还租了辆U型货车运走了一大堆东西。特勤局又回来了。

They search his apartment and don't find anything. The apartment manager comes out and explains to him how Sean has done all kinds of work to the apartment. As a matter of fact, he brought in $30,000 worth of Italian tile to put in the apartment that he's renting. And by the way, last night, he had a U Haul out here and took out a whole shitload of stuff. Secret service comes back in.

他们看着我说：你需要接受测谎。我回答：我才不做测谎。他们就说：不做就把你关回去。我说：找我律师。律师接了电话。

They look at me, and they're like, we need you to take a polygraph. And my answer was, I ain't taking a polygraph. So they're like, well, we'll throw you back in jail if you don't. And I was like, call my lawyer. Lawyer gets me on the phone.

律师说：你没有义务接受测谎。我说：很好，那我就不做。他说：但他们真会把你关回去。我说：那可不行。

He's like, you don't have to take a polygraph. I was like, well, good. I'm not going to. He's like, but they will throw you back in jail. I was like, don't wanna do that.

他问：你做过什么吗？我说：做过。他说：那你可以试试通过测谎。我说：好吧。于是我就考虑了一下。

And he's like, have you done anything? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, you can try to pass the polygraph. I'm like, okay. So I was looked at it.

我当时就说，咱们做个测谎测试吧。他们问了三个问题：你有没有跟任何人谈过？你有没有在办公室外用过电脑？你有没有接触过媒体——其实我那时一直在接受《纽约时报》记者的采访。

I was like, let's take the polygraph. They asked three questions. The questions were, have you talked to anybody? Have you you been on a computer outside of the offices? Have you talked to the press, which I was interviewing with a New York Times writer the entire time?

然后他们问：你有没有联系或警告过任何人关于调查的事？结果我测谎完全没通过。所以他们撤销了保释，把我押回查尔斯顿县，关进了监狱。三天后，特勤局的人又来了，把我从牢房里提了出来。

And then have you contacted or warned anybody about investigations? And I failed polygraph completely. So they revoked the bond, took me back down to Charleston County, throw me into jail. Three days later, Secret Service shows back up. They had pulled me out of a cell.

是吉姆·拉马科安和鲍比·柯比，说实话...他们真是好人，给过我无数次改过自新的机会，但我当时还没准备好。吉姆·拉马科内和鲍比在场，鲍比...他真的是我的朋友。几年前我有机会...几年前我曾有机会和一个人共进午餐，我向他道歉，因为我的所作所为导致他和另一名特工被开除。

It's Jim Ramacoan and Bobby Kirby, and they were I mean, honestly, I I they were good men, and they gave me chances upon chances to do the right thing, and I was not ready to do that. And Jim Ramacone and Bobby's in there and Bobby, I mean, Bobby was a friend. I mean, truly was. On, a couple years ago, I had a chance to couple years ago, I had a chance to to have lunch with a man. And told him I was sorry for everything I did to him because I got him and him and another agent fired.

我向他道歉说发生的事我很抱歉。他当时对我说：'我们曾经是你的朋友，真的把你当朋友。'所以他们确实...

And told him I was sorry for what happened. And he told me then, he's like, we were your friends, man. We were truly your friends. So they were good

他们是想帮你。是啊，他们希望...他们希望你做个好人。

They wanted to help. Yeah. They want they wanted you to be a good man.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

而且他们...

And they

最让我破防的是我告诉他，我说老兄，我正在努力做个更好的人。结果他说，布雷特，你一直都是个好人，只是你自己不知道。妈的。

and what what got me so damn bad is I told him, was like, man, I'm trying to be a better guy. Yeah. And he's like, Brett, you always were a good guy. You just didn't know it. And Fuck.

就是这种人。

People like that.

是的，这个世界需要这样的人。

Yes. We need people like that in this world.

没错。

Yeah.

你需要有人真心相信——天啊——相信你可以成为一个好人。

You need somebody to basically believe Oh, man. That you can be a good man.

然后吉姆·兰巴科尼把我叫出去。他是南卡罗来纳州的二把手。他拿着米兰达权利弃权书放在我面前，看着我。

So Jim Rambacone pulls me out. He's the second in charge in charge in South Carolina. He's got the Miranda waiver in front of him. Right? And he looks at me.

他摆出铁面无私的样子。鲍比在旁边看起来崩溃得像只受伤的狗。吉姆就说：听着，要么你把过去六年干的事全交代了，要么我这辈子就专门搞死你。

He's like, I'm playing hard ass. Bobby's over here looking distraught and, you know, like a hurt dog. And Jim's like, here's the way this is gonna work. He said, you're gonna tell me everything you've done the past six years, or I'm gonna make it my mission in life to fuck over you

是啊。

Yeah.

还有你的家人。对。然后他说，不只是这个案子。等你出狱后，我会追着你一辈子。接着他把米兰达权利放弃书推过来，说：现在想谈谈了吗？

And your family. Yeah. And he said, not just this case. Once you get out of prison, I'll hound you the rest of your life. Then he slides the Miranda Waver over, and he's like, now you wanna talk?

我看着他。我说：没门。他气得站起来，脸涨得通红，暴怒地冲出去，边走边骂：去你妈的

And I looked at him. I was like, nope. He was like he gets up, gets all red in the face, storms out as on the way out. He's like, fuck you very

的。是啊。

much. Yeah.

于是我回到牢房。一周后，我原本只面临州指控。一周后，法官裁定他们撤销保释的做法不当。哇。恢复了保释资格。

So I go back to the cell. A week later, I was on only under under state charges. A week later, judge rules they revoke the bond improperly. Wow. Reinstates the bond.

没人通知特勤局我要出狱。我就这么走了。当时我正和那个脱衣舞女约会，我跟我妈说：既然他们要搞我，那就得先找到我。

Nobody calls the secret service to tell them I walk out. I walk out. I was dating the stripper and I I told my mom, was like, well, if they're gonna fuck me, they're gonna have to find me.

她直接就跑路了。

She just went on the move.

是啊。我给那个脱衣舞女郎打了电话。之前大概给了她6万美金之类的屁话。我跟她说，金，我需要点钱。她一脸懵逼。

Yeah. I I called this stripper girl up. I'd given her like 60 k, some bullshit like that. And I told her, I was like, Kim, I need some money. And she was like, what?

然后我说，听着。给我1000美金，两周后还你3000。她居然答应了。于是我在佐治亚州奥古斯塔跟她见面拿了钱，然后沿着20号州际公路往西开。

And I was like, look. I said, give me a thousand dollars. I'll give you back $3,000 in two weeks. She was like, okay. So I met her in Augusta, Georgia and got the thousand from her and started driving west on I 20.

完全不知道要去哪儿。到了达拉斯，那里有家预付借记卡供应商。我走进办公室，靠社会工程学忽悠那家伙，没出示驾照也没付钱，就让他给了我60张预付卡。他真给了。

No idea where to go to, anything else. Got to Dallas. There was a prepaid debit card supplier in Dallas. Went in, walked in the office, convinced the guy, social engineering, convinced the guy to give me 60 prepaid debit cards without a driver's license, without payment, anything else. He did.

这就开始了逃亡之路。最后我从中获利大概16万美金，买了辆吉普切诺基。本打算攒够钱就逃到巴西弗洛里亚诺波利斯，在那里重操旧业。

And that started the run. I ended up stealing from that, I stole like a 160 k profit, used that to buy a Jeep Cherokee, went on the idea was to steal enough money to bug out to Florianopolis, Brazil and set up shop down there and do it again.

那曾是个美梦。

That was the dream.

就这样。我逃亡了四个月，偷了60万美金。当时在内华达州拉斯维加斯，有天晚上刚从ATM机盗取了16万。

That was it. That was it. So I was on the run for four months, stole $600,000. I was in Las Vegas, Nevada. One day, I had stolen the night before, I'd stolen a 160 k out of ATMs.

第二天早上醒来，登录卡特市场网站（那是'冰人'马克斯·巴特勒运营的），结果看到我的名字挂在'全美头号通缉犯'上——旁边赫然写着我的真名。那个圈子里根本没人知道我真名，但现在他们都知道了。

Went in the next the next morning, I woke up, signed on to carter'smarket.com, which was ran by Max Butler, the iceman. And there's my name, US most wanted on it. And that gets your attention. That was my real name with The US most wanted beside of it. Nobody knew my real name in that environment at all, but then they did.

内容是关于我隶属于秘密行动'钓鱼行动'等情报部门的事。所以他们全都表现得像是——

And it was talking about me being part of the secret service, Operation Anglerfish, everything else. So, of course, they're all like they're

所有人都追着你不放。

all Everybody's like after you.

他们嚷嚷着'好啊，我们非逮住这混蛋不可'。我盯着通缉令，直接脱口而出：'约翰逊先生，您已荣登美国头号通缉榜，现在有何打算？'

They're like, oh, yeah. We're we're gonna get this son of a bitch. So I sit there looking at it, and I was like, said it out loud. I was like, well, mister Johnson, you've made The United States most wanted list. What do you do now?

我当即宣布'我要去迪士尼乐园'。真的，一字不差地喊出来了。

And I was like, I'm going to Disney World. So Literally. Literally. Literally. Said that out loud.

于是装满吉普车，从拉斯维加斯直奔佛罗里达奥兰多，买了两张年票——迪士尼和环球影城各一张。还现金支付了九个月的分时度假房款，就在环球影城大道新建的度假村里。对方确认'收现金吗？'

So loaded up the Jeep, drove from Las Vegas to Orlando, Florida, and got the two annual passes, one to Disney World, the other one to Universal Studios. Paid paid for a timeshare. They were building these new timeshares right off Universal Drive, building these brand new timeshares, paid for a timeshare nine months cash. Yeah. I was like, we take cash?

当然收现金，12900美元。因为房子没家具，我又去家居店买了三万美元的家具。之前被没收的价值三万的DVD收藏我也赎回来了，之后每天都泡在迪士尼。

Yeah. We take cash. There's 12,900. Then it wasn't furnished, so I went down to a furniture store, bought $30,000 in furniture. They had seized a DVD collection of mine worth $30, bought that back, and proceeded to go to Disney World every day.

这逍遥日子持续了六周。他们用'触发鱼'设备（现在叫'黄貂鱼'系统）定位到我。那天是2006年9月16日周六上午十点半。

And that lasted about six weeks. They used a, trigger fish, is what they use. Nowadays, it's called a stingray, to find me. So one day, I was, it was, like, 10:30 in the morning on Saturday. September 16 was the day, 2006.

是啊。2006年9月16日。我已经习惯了建筑工人来敲门，确认一切正常。所以我当时在睡觉，听到敲门声就起来了，从猫眼往外看。外面没人。

Yeah. 2006, September 16. I was used to the builders coming around knocking, making sure everything was alright. So I was asleep, heard this knock at the door, and get up, look through the keyhole. Nobody's there.

你知道，就是那种，外面空无一人。我就开了门，走到走廊上。沿着走廊走来的是鲍比·柯比，另一个南卡罗来纳州来的家伙，还有一位奥兰治县警局的警察。他们转过身来，说，嘿，布雷特。

You know, the people, nobody's there. I was like, Open the door, step out into the hallway. Walking down the hall is Bobby Kirby, another South Carolina guy, and a Orlando Orange County cop. And they turn around. They're like, hey, Brett.