#275 – 里克·鲁宾：传奇音乐制作人

以下是与里克·鲁宾的对话，他是有史以来最伟大的音乐制作人之一，以激发合作者最佳状态而闻名，无论音乐流派、艺术媒介，还是世上任何创造美好事物的领域。过去四十年间，他制作的音乐人名单包括众多传奇人物：野兽男孩、埃米纳姆、金属乐队、LL Cool J、坎耶·韦斯特、杀手乐队、汤姆·佩蒂、约翰尼·卡什、南方小鸡、空中铁匠、阿黛尔、丹齐格、红辣椒乐队、堕落体制、Jay Z、黑色安息日等等——这个名单还能列很长。最重要的是，里克本人就是位非凡的人类。我们迅速成为挚友，这话说出来都像超现实，实在是莫大的荣幸。

The following is a conversation with Rick Rubin, one of the greatest music producers of all time, known for bringing the best out of anyone he works with, no matter the genre of music or even the medium of art or just the medium of creating something beautiful in this world. And the list of musicians he produced includes many, many, many of the greats over the past forty years, including the Beastie Boys, Eminem, Metallica, LL Cool J, Kanye West, Slayer, Tom Petty, Johnny Cash, Dixie Chicks, Aerosmith, Adele, Danzig, Red Hot Chili Peppers, System of a Down, Jay Z, Black Sabbath. I can keep going for a very long time here. Most importantly, Rick is just an amazing human being. We became fast friends, which is surreal to say and is just an incredible honor.

与他共度的那天，吃着美味的德州烤肉，谈论生活、音乐、艺术与美，让我真正感受到被倾听的体验。这场对话与经历我将永生难忘。现在快速提一下我们的赞助商，详情请查看描述栏，这是支持本播客的最佳方式。

I felt truly heard as a person when I spent the day with him eating some delicious Texas barbecue, talking about life, about music, about art, about beauty. This was a conversation and experience I will never forget. And now, a quick few second mention of esponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast.

我们有深度学习用的Lambda，恢复用的Theragun，时尚用的Roka，提升表现用的Onnit，保护隐私用的ExpressVPN。朋友们，她更睿智了。现在进入完整广告时间——一如既往不会插播在节目中。我尽量让这些有趣，但若您跳过，仍请支持我们的赞助商。

We got Lambda for deep learning, Theragun for recovery, Roka for style, Onnit for performance, and ExpressVPN for privacy. She's wiser, my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors.

我喜欢他们的产品，或许您也会。本期节目由新晋赞助商Lambda呈现——虽是新赞助，却是我心仪已久的老朋友。

I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This show is brought to you by a new sponsor, new to the sponsorship, but old to me. I love them, have loved them for a long time. It's Lambda.

无论是计算机、工作站、笔记本、服务器还是云计算，Lambda为深度学习和机器学习提供全套解决方案，既适合独立研究者，也满足大型企业需求。他们让强大算力变得即插即用。我本人就使用他们的笔记本和工作站。

Computers, workstations, laptops, servers, cloud compute, all for deep learning, for machine learning. Great both for individual researchers and for huge companies. Lambda has created easy plug and play access to very powerful compute computation. I have their laptop. I have their workstation.

这些设备令人惊叹，是我的深度学习首选。您可按需定制GPU数量、内存、CPU等所有配置，可选择Ubuntu Linux 20.04系统，也能选Windows——放心，用Windows我绝不评判。

The thing is amazing. This is where I go to for deep learning. You can customize it for your needs, the number of GPUs, the memory, the CPU, everything. You can do Linux, Ubuntu Linux 20 o four, or you can do Windows also. I promise not to judge if you go with Windows.

总之Lambda是顶尖之选，既炫酷又强悍。访问lambdalabs.com/flex定制专属笔记本或任何计算设备，您绝不会失望。官网lambdalabs.com/lex。

Anyway, Lambda is as good as it gets. Super sexy, super powerful. Go to lambdalabs.com/flex to build your custom laptop or to set up whatever custom compute you want. You will not regret it. Lambdalabs.com/lex.

本节目由Theragun赞助播出，这是一款手持式冲击疗法设备，我在锻炼后用它进行肌肉恢复。它出奇地安静，易于使用，并配有一个很棒的应用程序，指导你了解所有需要知道的内容。我几乎每天都会做大量的俯卧撑和引体向上。如果不小心，可能会患上所谓的肌腱炎，我想，就是过度使用造成的损伤。

This show is also brought to you by Theragun, a handheld percussive therapy device that I use after workouts for muscle recovery. It's surprisingly quiet, easy to use, comes with a great app that guides you through everything you need to know. I've been doing almost every day a large amount of push ups, a large amount of pull ups. If you're not careful, you can get the, what's that called? Tendonitis, I think, overuse injury.

因此我非常重视恢复。另外，我现在重新开始训练，之前腿部受伤一直在处理。Theragun在这方面帮了大忙。对我来说，主要用途是在高强度锻炼后进行按摩，放松肌肉，加速身体恢复，以便再次投入高强度训练。在therabody.com/lex试用Theragun三十天。

So I take my recovery very seriously. Also, getting back on the mat now, I had an injury with my leg that I was dealing with. Again, Theragun helps a lot there. Primary use case for me is after a hard workout, get a massage, it relaxes the muscles, and it just speeds up my physical recovery until I can work out hard again. Try Theragun for thirty days at therabody.com/lex.

第四代Theragun配备OLED屏幕、个性化Theragun应用，既安静又强劲。起价199美元，访问therabody.com/flex。本节目由Roka赞助播出，这家公司生产的眼镜和太阳镜因其设计、触感、创新材料、光学性能及抓握感深受我喜爱。Roka由两位斯坦福大学的全美游泳健将创立，其中一位我见过。两位都很棒，但我可以证明其中一位Rob绝对是百分百、甚至百分之一百一十的出色。

Theragun gen four has an OLED screen, personalized Theragun app, and is both quiet and powerful. Starting at $199, Go to therabody.com/flex. This show is brought to you by Roka, the makers of glasses and sunglasses that I love wearing for their design, feel, and innovative materials, optics, and grip. Roka was started by two all American swimmers from Stanford, one of whom I met. Both of whom I'm sure are awesome, but one of I can testify that one of them, Rob, is for sure 100% awesome, 110% awesome.

总之，这家公司源于对性能的痴迷。‘痴迷’和‘性能’这两个词我都很喜欢。它是极简主义、优雅且功能性的设计，所有这些词都深得我心。设计中的极简主义本身就是一种美。如果还能在各种条件下保持功能性，那就更完美了。

Anyway, the company was born out of an obsession with performance. Two words I love, obsession and performance. It's a minimalist classy functional design, all of those words are ones I love. Minimalism in design is just a beautiful thing. And if it's functional, especially in all kinds of conditions, that's a beautiful thing.

它专为运动设计，极其轻便。抓握处舒适且稳固。我戴着它在酷热和严寒中跑步，表现都非常出色。访问roka.com选购处方眼镜和太阳镜，并使用优惠码Lex首单立享8折。

It's designed to be active in. It's extremely lightweight. The grip is comfortable, but strong. I've used it, I've run-in it in the heat, in the cold, it holds up beautifully. Check them out for both prescription glasses and sunglasses at roka.com and enter code Lex to save 20% off on your first order.

网址是roka.com，输入优惠码Lex。本期节目由营养补充与健身公司Onnit赞助播出。他们生产的Alpha Brain是一种益智补充剂，有助于提升记忆力、思维速度和专注力。我在进行持续两到四小时的深度困难工作时会用它来提神。这对我来说是最耗精力的事。

That's roka.com and enter code Lex. This episode is brought to you by Onnit, nutrition supplement and fitness company. They make alpha brain, which is nootropic that helps support memory, mental speed, and focus. I use it as a boost for a difficult deep work session that's gonna last two, three, four hours. That's the most exhausting thing for me.

当仅凭一张纸和一支笔思考非常困难的问题时，我会服用Alpha Brain。它能帮助理清思路，让我在深度工作期间保持专注。如果你对我所说的‘深度工作’毫无概念，应该读读卡尔·纽波特写的《深度工作》这本书，非常精彩。

When just with a sheet of paper and a pen, I'm thinking through something really difficult. I'll take Alpha Brain. It helps clear the mind, helps me maintain focus during those hard deep work sessions. Now if you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say deep work, you should read a book called Deep Work by Cal Newport. It's brilliant.

它让你明白有一种非常艰难且正确的工作方式，而且应该会让人精疲力竭。但如果你学会这样工作，反而可以工作得更少。你可以访问lexfreeman.com/onit获取高达10%的Alpha Brain折扣。网址是lexfreeman.com/onit。我们将共同突破这场深度工作带来的精神鏖战。

It makes you understand that there's a very difficult and proper way to work, and it should be exhausting. But then, if you learn to work that way, you can work less. You can go to lexfreeman.com/onit to get up to 10% off of Alpha Brain. That's lexfreeman.com/onit. We'll fight through this mental battle of a deep work session together.

本节目由ExpressVPN赞助播出。我用它来保护我的网络隐私。使用ExpressVPN的理由太多了：首先，网络服务商会收集你的数据，Chrome浏览器的无痕模式根本保护不了你。你在网上做的所有隐秘勾当——我知道你肯定干过不少。

This show is also brought to you by ExpressVPN. I use them to protect my privacy on the Internet. So many reasons to use ExpressVPN. First of all, ISPs, they collect your data using incognito mode on Chrome does not protect you. All the shady things you do on the Internet, and I know you do all of the shady things.

网络服务商对这些一清二楚。对于Netflix、Hulu等平台，你可以用ExpressVPN切换地区。如果某些节目受地域限制（很多都如此），你就能瞬间切换到全球任意位置——日本、英国，任何地方都行。ExpressVPN是我用过连接速度最快、界面设计最直观的VPN。

The ISPs know all about it. For Netflix and Hulu and so on, you can use ExpressVPN to change locations. So if any of the shows are geographically restricted and a bunch of them are, You can change your location instantly throughout the world. You could be in Japan, you could be in UK, you could be wherever. And ExpressVPN is the fastest VPN I've ever used in terms of connection speed, in terms of intuitive nature of its design.

它兼容所有设备系统，包括我最爱的Linux系统。访问expressvpn.com/lexpod可额外获赠三个月免费时长。网址是expressvpn.com/lexpod。这里是Lex Friedman播客，接下来是我与里克·鲁宾的对话。你紧张吗？

It works at any device, including any operating system like Linux, my favorite operating system. You can go to expressvpn.com/lexpod to get an extra three months free. That's expressvpn.com/lexpod. This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Rick Rubin. Are you nervous?

我没有发抖，但可以说感到不安。我觉得越早开始交谈，我们就会越放松。

I'm not shaky, but I would say I feel uneasy. And I feel like the sooner we start talking, the more relaxed we'll get.

是啊。或许我们该沉浸此刻，享受这种紧张感。让我从尼采开始——他说没有音乐的人生将是个错误。你认为他这话是什么意思？

Yeah. Well, maybe we should sit in this moment and enjoy the nervousness of it. Let me start with Nietzsche. He said without music, life would be a mistake. What do you think he means by that?

我们来聊聊哲学。试着分析一个世纪前的弗里德里希·尼采。

Let's talk some philosophy. Let's try to analyze Friedrich Nietzsche from a century ago.

音乐似乎拥有一种能力，能触及我们灵魂深处那些难以通过其他方式到达的地方。若没有音乐，失去的将远不止是愉悦本身。它就像一扇通往另一个世界的窗户。

It seems like music has the ability to bring us so much depth in our soul that's hard to access any other way. And without it, there would be a a loss beyond beyond the pleasure of it. Feels like it's a window into something else.

这是其他任何媒介都无法以同样方式表达的。

Something that no other medium can express quite the same way.

我认为其他形式无法如此自然而然地做到。音乐有种特质能瞬间直达心灵。或许诗歌或某些抽象艺术也能达到类似效果，但音乐确实能让我们更快抵达那个境界。

I would say not as automatically. Something about music can do it automatically. Maybe poetry or maybe certain abstract forms can get us there, but there's something about music that really can get us there quickly.

但这同时也与时空记忆有关。比如我的很多家人还在费城，当我开车穿过新泽西听着布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀时，就会突然情绪翻涌。比如听《I'm On Fire》的时候。

But it's also the time to place the history. There's something about like, a lot of my family's still in Philly. There's something about driving through Jersey and listening to Bruce Springsteen. And then it just I'll get, like, emotional. Like, listening to, like, I'm on fire.

那是我最爱的布鲁斯歌曲之一，有种萦绕心头的拨弦声——其实不是扫弦而是指弹，带着乡村音乐的味道，几乎像是约翰尼·卡什的风格。我说不清楚...

That, like one of my one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen songs, there's a there's a there's a haunting kinda strumming to it. It's not a strumming. It's it's actually picked. Has a country feel to it, almost like a Johnny Cash feel, actually. And it I don't know.

这让我深切感受到...对于不了解的人，《I'm On Fire》是首求而不得的情歌——对方已为人妻或心有所属，这类主题其实很常见。但那种吉他的幽怨质感，配合开车穿越新泽西的场景...我觉得每个男人生命中都曾爱上过一位新泽西姑娘（虽然我自己也没经历过，但就是有这种感觉）。

It makes me feel so for people who don't know, I'm on fire, that song is, I guess, a love song to a woman that you can't have because she's married or she's with somebody else, which I guess is quite a lot of love songs. But there's something about the haunting nature of the guitar, and then it has to be driving through Jersey. And I feel like everyone has fallen in love with a Jersey girl at one point in their life. I don't know if that's true for her for pretty but I I feel like that. I haven't either, but I just feel like that.

布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的魅力就在于，他仿佛在说'是的，我经历过'。他能用一首简单的歌，带你领略爱情、渴望、时光流逝带来的心碎，以及生命有限的怅惘——所有这一切。

I feel there's something about Bruce Springsteen. He's like, yeah. I've been there. I you know? And that just takes you to a place of emotion that you just that that captures love, that captures longing, that captures the the heartbreak of just the way time flows in life and the fact that it's finite and just all of that in a singles single simple song.

比如，还有什么能捕捉到那种感觉呢？

Like, what else can capture that?

是啊，我也不清楚。但确实存在时间、地点与音乐之间的关联。我在东海岸长大时，某些音乐比如老鹰乐队，直到我去了西海岸才真正产生共鸣。在纽约生活时，老鹰乐队的歌对我而言毫无触动。

Yeah. I don't know. But it but it's true that there's a connection both between time and place and music. And I certain music growing up on the East Coast didn't really resonate with me until I spent time on the West Coast, Eagles being an example. When I lived in New York, the Eagles didn't really speak to me.

ZZ Top乐队也是如此。后来当我在加州生活，开车穿越月桂峡谷时，突然间老鹰乐队的音乐莫名契合起来，我开始更频繁地聆听他们的作品。

ZZ Top didn't really speak to me. And then when I started spending time in California and driving through Laurel Canyon, all of a sudden, the music of the Eagles felt appropriate somehow, and I started listening to it more.

明白了。所以直到你去了西部，才能真正理解西部的音乐。那么纽约也有其独特的声音？美国还有哪些地方拥有标志性的音乐风格？

Got it. So not until you went out West can you understand the sounds of the West. So it's really like New York has a sound. What other places have a sound in The United States?

我认为每个地方都有。有时候我们能通过音乐体验一个地方——即使不明白为何产生共鸣。当真正去到音乐诞生的地方时，仿佛早已熟悉那里，陌生感就消失了。

I think every place does. And that said, sometimes we can get an experience through music of a place. Like, we can resonate with the music and not understand why. And then maybe when we go to the place where it was created, it's almost like we have a knowingness of that place. It's not a strange place anymore.

没错。就像史蒂夫·雷·沃恩的德州蓝调，听《Texas Flood》时，那种失去爱人、心碎的感觉莫名与那片土地相连。老鹰乐队的哪首歌最打动你？

Yeah. Steve Ray Vaughan with blues and tech Texas Blues. Yeah. You can just listen to Texas Flood and just again, there's there's, like, a woman you're missing, a broken heart, and somehow that connects to to the place. The Eagles What song with the Eagles connects with you?

是指《Take It Easy》这类，还是更偏向《加州旅馆》那种？

Are we talking about, like, take it easy, or are we talking more like Hotel California?

我在想放轻松点，但两者都很棒。

I'm thinking take it easy, but but both are great.

是啊。有些歌在我小时候刚开始学吉他时，我就想成为那种不仅会弹这首歌，还能理解它的人，比如二十年前就弹过这首歌。我和这首歌相处了很久。比如《加州旅馆》，显然有那段独奏，但歌词中的灵魂感我至今仍不理解。

Yeah. There's certain songs when I started learning guitar when I was young that's like, I would like to be the kind of person that not only knows how to play this song but understands this song and, like, have that song be something I played twenty years ago. And I've lived with that song for a while. Like, Hotel California is is an example. The obviously, there's the solo, but there's also the soulfulness of the lyrics, which I still don't understand.

它可能关于任何事。随着年龄增长，我觉得这首歌的意义可以是任何东西。

And it could be about anything. And as you get older, I feel like the meaning of the song could be anything.

对，我觉得确实如此。这就是它们的魅力所在。创作者可能有某种解读，但我们不必非得认同那种解读才能喜欢、共鸣或感受它。某种程度上，最好的艺术足够开放，艺术家在创作时有他们的体验，听众在聆听时有他们的体验，两者不必相同。

Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's the beauty of them. I think when the person wrote them, they may have had one interpretation, but it's not contingent on us getting that interpretation to like it or resonate with it or feel it. In some ways, the best the best art is open enough where the artist gets to have their experience when they make it, and then the audience gets to have their experience when they listen, and they don't have to be the same.

然后它将成千上万的人联结在一起。音乐有种共融性，当你们共享音乐时，比如在车里一起听。首先，车是个神圣的地方。我部分从事自动驾驶工作，开始思考当车不再是美国人生活的核心时，我们会失去什么？比如车辆所有权。

And then it connects thousands or millions of people together. There's a there's a togetherness of music when you share that music, when you're listening to stuff together, like in a car. First of all, the car is a sacred place. So I work in part on autonomous vehicles, and and start to think, what what are the things you lose when the car stops being the central part of American life? The car ownership.

独自在车里时，感觉就像在进行心理治疗——你会对他人发怒，然后沉浸在自己的愤怒和情绪中。长途旅行时听着歌，回忆往事，心碎的时刻，错过的那个ta，但也有美好瞬间，全都在车里。

It just feels like the car when you're alone, It's like a therapist thing session because you get angry at other other humans. You get to to and then you get to, like, sit in your own anger and emotion. You get to listen to the song on a long road trip and and remember, like, run through your memories, the heartbreak, I don't know, the one that got away, but also, like, the beautiful moments, all of it. Yeah. And all of that in the car.

没错。驾驶还有另一个作用——它是我们不得不集中注意力避免撞车，但通常又能自动运行到让我们可以思考其他事情的活动。我发现当有轻微任务需要处理时，反而能释放思维中更具创造力的一面来解决问题。

Yeah. Driving also serves another purpose in it's a it's one of the things that we can do that we have to pay attention enough not to crash, but typically can essentially run on autopilot enough where we could be thinking about something else or concentrating on something else. And the difference between concentrating on something or trying to solve a problem when you're solely trying to solve a problem versus when you have some little task that's keeping you occupied, I find if I have some slight something slight to take care of, it frees a more creative side of my mind to better solve problems.

你知道吗，我有点羡慕那些通过绘画找到这种感觉的人。比如他们一边画画一边听东西，那是一种只需占用一小部分心思的轻松活动。就像在填色本里涂色，是个温和、平静、缓慢的过程，然后你就可以听些东西。有些人就是这样听播客的。

You know, I'm kind of jealous of people that found that in painting, for example. They'll be drawing or painting and listening to so that that's the small task you do. You're coloring in the lines. It's like this gentle, peaceful, slow process that requires just a small fraction of your mind, and then you can listen. Some people listen to podcasts that way.

也有人这样听音乐。嗯。对啊。你是怎么做的？

Some people listen to music that way. Mhmm. Yeah. How do you do it?

你如何放空思绪？

How do you free your mind?

跑步是方法之一。这需要一个过程。对我来说，彻底放空思绪必须经历短暂的痛苦阶段。就像做困难的事情，好比飞机起飞那样。比如说跑步就是这样。

Running is one of them. There's a process. So most freeing of the mind for me has to go through a process of a bit of pain for a bit. So doing something difficult, it's just like a a airplane taking off or something. So So that's for example, running.

刚开始几英里纯粹是身体层面的煎熬，你会想：我太胖了、体能太差了、年纪大了等等。好吧。

The first few miles would just be just just first of all, the physical aspect, which is like, you're so fat. You're out of shape. You're this is this is getting old. This that. Okay.

这些念头慢慢消散后，内心恶魔就会冒出来说：你应该完成这个那个，你承诺的事都没做到...各种指责的声音接踵而至。跑到第四英里左右，你就会想：去他的吧。

That slowly dissipates. And then the demons come in who are like, you should be you should be getting this and that and this done. You haven't gotten it done. You're, like, breaking promises, all those kind of voices coming in. And after that, maybe mile four, it's like, fuck it.

你就只管跑。顺着风以很慢的节奏跑，然后你就能思考了。随着脚步声和身体运动，你可以深入思考各种事情——创意、设计方案，无论是编程架构还是人生重大决定。要说的话，跑步对我很有效。我以前还用过牙签搭桥来放空。

You just you just run. Run with the wind at a very slow pace, but with the wind, and then and then you could think. So it's the the footsteps, the physical activity, then you could deeply think about stuff. Ideas, sort of design, whether it's program design stuff, or, like, high level life decisions, all those kinds of things, I would say running. I used to build bridges from toothpicks.

我曾经从事过一项工作。那算是工程学吧，我想有些人会用胶水粘合飞机之类的玩意儿。

I used to be a thing. It's an engineering I I guess some people, like, glue together airplanes and stuff like that.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但造桥是极其诚实的工程，因为最终你必须测试那座桥，你会清楚自己的工作成果如何。既要关注细节，又要把握全局。

But the bridge is such deeply honest work because at the end of it, you're gonna have to test that bridge, and you're gonna see how good your work was. The little details, but also the big picture.

你们用胶水吗？

Do you use glue or no?

用啊。胶水。所以这不纯粹是物理学，还涉及材料工程。

Yeah. You use glue. Glue. So it's not pure physics. It's it's it's materials engineering too.

因为关键工艺是把木材劈得尽可能薄，再用胶水粘合——胶水的强度极高，除了拱形结构那些部位。造拱桥完全是另一门手艺，你得弯曲木材。最神奇的是这东西能承受自身重量数千倍的压力，然后你会看着它在某个临界点爆裂。如果工艺够好，它不会从你未预料的薄弱处开裂，而是整体同时迸裂。所有部件都会炸开。

Because the way you want to do it is you actually split the wood as thin as possible and then glue it back together because the glue is really strong except for the arches and things like that. So you're building arch bridges, which is a whole another skill because you have to bend the wood. And it's so cool because the thing can hold thousands of times its weight, and then you get to watch it explode at a certain point from the pressure, and when you do a really good job, it doesn't explode in a kinda some weak point that you didn't anticipate, just kinda starts cracking. It everything cracks. Everything explodes.

碎片四处飞溅，数百小时的心血就在眼前炸得粉碎。这或许就是人生的隐喻，一切终归虚无。唯一有意义的是抵达终点的旅程，但没人能理解。说到这个，回到尼采的话题。这些问题都很荒谬，所以你得...你得试着理解我到底想在这里探讨什么。

It's just pieces fly everywhere, and it's literally hundreds of hours of work just explode in front of you. And that's metaphor for life, maybe, and it's all for nothing Yeah. Except for the journey that you took to get there, and no one understands. Speaking of which, back to Nietzsche. These questions are ridiculous, so you're gonna have to you're gonna have to try to figure out what the what the heck I'm trying to do here.

尼采还说过一句关于爱的话，那些被看见跳舞的人，被听不见音乐的人认为是疯子。里克·鲁宾，你曾觉得自己疯了吗？或者也许你才是清醒的那个，而其他人都疯了。你知道那种随着音乐起舞、感受音乐的喜悦，而其他人却无法理解的感受吗？这并不一定特指音乐。

So Nietzsche also said, a line of love, which is and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Do you, Rick Rubin, ever feel crazy? Or maybe maybe you're the one who's sane and everybody else is crazy. You know that the dancing, the joy of the music, of just feeling the music and everybody else just doesn't understand? And this doesn't have to be literally about music.

这是关于艺术，关于创造。

This is about art, about creation.

我会说我感觉与众不同，但很难说，就像，等式的哪一边才是疯狂的，你懂吧。

I would say I feel different, and it's hard to say, it's like, which side of the equation is crazy, you know.

你是否曾遇到过一群理解你、你也理解他们的人？是的。制作音乐的本质是否就是如此？就是试图找到那些彼此心灵相通的时刻？

Did you ever find a group of people that you get, they get you? Yes. Is is that what producing is essentially? Is you try to find the moments when you just get each other?

不。我认为确实有些艺术家具有特定的气质，当你和他们在一起时，感觉就像能接上对方的句子，你们看待世界的方式相同。喜剧演员也是如此。

No. I would say there definitely certain artists with certain temperaments, when you're around them, it feels like you can finish each other's sentences, you know, just see the world the same way. Comedians as well.

这对于你们两人共同创造特别的东西来说不是必需的吗？不，不是。所以也可能只是关注？

And that's not essential for the the two of you together creating something special? No. No. So it could be attention too?

可能是任何东西，没有规则。就像教练一样，教练可以...

It could be any it could be any there's no rules. It's it'd be like think of it like a coach. A coach could

没错。

Right.

教练可以将其所能带给任何有才华的个体，帮助他们找到自己的道路。有时，合适的教练与合适的运动员确实能产生奇效，而其他时候则可能不匹配。

A coach could bring their what they have to bring to any talented individual and, you know, help them find their way. And sometimes the right, you know, the right coach for the right athlete really works, and other times, there's a mismatch.

你看过电影《爆裂鼓手》吗？

Have you seen the movie Whiplash?

看过。它上映时我就看了，不过现在记得不太清楚了，但确实看过。

I did. I saw it when it came out, so I don't really remember it well, but I did see it.

所以电影里有个教练式的人物，对。他逼迫一名鼓手成长为一个音乐家，同时也为了创造某种特别的东西。我不确定那是否在音乐技巧上特别，但那是个特别的时刻。是的。

So there's a coach type of figure Yes. Who is pushing a drummer to create to grow as a musician, but also to create something special. I don't know if it's even special music skill wise. It's a special moment. Yeah.

我不清楚他究竟想创造什么。从一个角度看，那只是个自私地享受虐待他人的施虐者。但从另一个角度看，我对那部电影的理解是，两个对的人在生命的恰当时刻相遇，过程中可能互相毁灭，但也可能因此诞生美好。你认为那是种有毒的关系吗？还是说电影中某些部分让你觉得，有时创造艺术就需要这样的代价？

I don't know what he's trying to create. From one perspective, it's just an abusive a person who selfishly gets off on being abusive to those he's with. But from another perspective, the way I saw that movie is it's just the two right humans finding each other at the right moment in life and risking destroying each other in the process, but maybe something beautiful will come of it. Do you think that's a toxic relationship? Or is there does some of that movie resonate with you as that sometimes is required to create art?

那种痛苦。

That kind of suffering.

是的，它不会。嗯，过程中确实有痛苦，但不是那种痛苦。至少对我来说不是。有些人就是那样，那是他们的方式，只要有效就行。

Yeah. It doesn't. It well, there's suffering involved, but not that kind of suffering. Not for me. There are some there are some people who that's their process and that's whatever works.

你知道，艺术创作没有标准答案。我们都在尝试各种实验寻找方法。即便是我经手的工作，也没有固定模式。每个项目我都从零开始，真正聆听艺术家的演奏和想法，通过他们的解释来找到最佳实现路径。电影里暗示过那个刻薄老师享受当恶人的感觉吗？

You know, there's no there are no right answers for anything involved in art. It's we're we're all trying experiments to find a way. And even for the things that I work on, I don't have a set way that I do anything. Every I come to every project blank and see I really listen to what the artist plays and says and through what they're through what they explain they wanna do, find the best way to get there. Was it implicit in the movie that the mean teacher liked being a mean teacher?

你刚才描述的方式是他通过这样对待他人获得快感。我们确定电影里有这层意思吗？我不记得有这个情节。

You you said the way you described it was that he got off on treating people this way. Do we know that to be the case? I don't remember that in the movie.

但我们有时会把这种想法投射到那些严厉对待学生的人身上。你会觉得，或许这就是他们的本性。如果这是本性使然，那他们必定从中获得某种快感，或是某种瘾。但也可能是教师刻意选择的行为方式。

But we sometimes project that onto people, people who are really rough on students. You start to think, well, maybe maybe that is fundamentally who they are. And if it's fundamentally who they are, that there must be some pleasure in it or it's an addiction of some sort. But it could be also a deliberate choice made by the teacher.

这也可能是传承。比如禅宗传统里就有严厉的禅师，弟子犯错时会体罚。这就是他们的教学传承。我没有这种背景，我更倾向于认为创作是共同协作的过程，完全不是主仆关系。

It also could be a lineage. Like, you know, in in the Zen tradition, they're sort of the the the mean Roshis, who if you do something wrong, take a physical action. And it's just in the lineage, it's considered that's how you teach. I I didn't come from that lineage, so I'm I'm much more of I I feel like it's more of a collaboration between people working together to make the best thing. It's not a it's not a boss slave relationship at all.

更像是共同探索。我们在开始时约定，任何人觉得不满意都要直言，目标是持续改进直到大家都满意。如果作品只满足一方，说明我们还没做到位。

It's much more of a let's find our way. And and we agree at the beginning of the process that if either of us or any of us don't like what's happening, we say it, and the goal is to keep working till we get to a point where we we're all really happy with it. It's like if we if we make something that an artist likes and I don't like or if that I like and they don't like, we haven't gone far enough.

说到传承，追求毁灭和追求快乐的都同宗同源。我们都来自鱼类。所以你内心深处也藏着那些特质，只是尚未被激发。你说每个新项目——包括今天可能开始的——都是接通固有潜能的契机。你还提到倾听的重要性。

In terms of lineage, the ones that seek destruction and the ones that seek happiness all come from the same lineage. We all came from fish. So somewhere in you, deep down there, there's the other stuff too. It's just that you haven't been yet, by the way, because you said every new project, including maybe starting today, is an opportunity to channel, to plug into something that was always there and you haven't gotten a chance to plug into. You mentioned listening.

你如何倾听一个人？初次见面时你如何理解对方？比如我们刚认识，你大脑里在进行怎样的分析？当然，和我相处是一回事。

How do you listen to a person? How do you hear a person when you first come in? Like, we just met. What's the analysis happening? But, I mean, with me is one thing.

我算是某种艺术家。我编程，我只是...算是个人类吧。我想我们都在创造艺术。对于那些不了解你的人——当然大多数人都知道你制作过史上最伟大的唱片——但在我看来，你只是激发了许多有趣艺术家最好的一面。而要激发他们的最佳状态，你必须先理解他们。

I'm an artist of sorts. I program, and I I'm just I'm human, I guess. I guess we're all creating art. How do you see, like, how do I bring out so for people who don't know I mean, a lot obviously, everyone knows that you've produced some of the greatest records ever, but the way I see that is you just brought out the best in in a lot of interesting artists. And so in order to bring out the best in them, you have to understand them.

你必须聆听他们灵魂的乐章。希望我这么说不过分浪漫，但能否谈谈这有多困难？是否存在某种方法、技巧，或者全靠运气？

You have to hear the music of their soul. Hopefully, I'm not being too romantic here, but just like, is there something you can say of how difficult that is, if there's a process, if there's tricks, if it's luck?

我认为首先要做到清空自己，不带任何先入为主的观念，保持开放心态，真正去倾听。倾听时不去想接下来要说什么或自己的观点，不是像录音机那样单纯接收信息。听到信息后，要尽量摒除个人信念的影响去处理这些内容。比如我问你问题时，我不希望在听你说话时产生任何预设反应。

I think it's it starts with this, again, coming in blank, like, not having any preconceived ideas, being open, and really listening. Listening and not thinking about what you're going to say next or what your opinion is or any you know, not being a recorder and just hearing what comes in. And then once you hear what comes in, processing that information and trying our best to do that without any of the beliefs that we might have to impact what that is. Mhmm. You know, I if I if I ask you a question, I don't wanna hear what I don't wanna listen to you and have any reaction happening when you're speaking.

我力求绝对中立。我的目标不是形成判断，而是理解。所以我会不断引导你深入表达，通过提问来真正理解。如果你说的某些话触动了我，让我好奇'他怎么会这么想'，我不会反驳你。

I wanna be as neutral as possible. For me, for to to be my goal is is not to form an opinion, it's to understand. So if anything, I would draw you out further and just ask questions to really understand. And if you or or if you say something that I that somehow triggers me in a way that that's, you know, I wonder how he came to that. I would I would I wouldn't challenge you.

我会问：你是怎么发现这个观点的？你是如何走到这个认知阶段的？从...

I would ask, like, how did you find that? You know, how did you get to that place? From a

好奇的立场出发。你会试图弄明白

place of curiosity. You would try to figure

是的，我想了解这个人是谁。通过提问，我们通常能达到目的。仅仅通过共处时光，你就能发现一个人的本质。

out Yeah. I wanna understand who the person is. And through questioning, we can usually get there. Through just spending time together, you you find out who the person is.

那么在发现之后，如何找出下一步激发他们最佳状态的方法呢？是不是只能靠反复试验？比如，让我们试试这个。

What about finding out and figuring out how to then take the next steps of bringing out the best in them? Like, is it just trial and error? Like, let's try this.

这绝对是反复试验的过程。永远都是试错的过程。

It's definitely trial and error. It's always trial and error.

你害怕犯错吗？比如，让我们添加这个乐器，移除那个乐器，试试看。加上这段旋律。

Are you afraid of making a mistake? Like, let's let's add this instrument. Let's remove this instrument. Let's try. Add this line.

让我们删掉这段旋律。

Let's remove this line.

让我们尝试。并且保持开放心态。工作室虽然没有明文规定，但我们有个共识：任何人的任何想法都必须演示、必须尝试。因为我可能向你描述一个想法，你会觉得那糟透了。

Let's try. And let's let's be open. So one of the one of the there we don't really have rules, but one of the agreements in the studio is any idea that anyone has, will always demonstrate it, will always try it. Because I can describe to you an idea and you can think, that's a terrible idea. Let's not do that.

但当我实际演奏出来时，你可能会说'这真的很棒'。因为听觉想象和实际呈现完全不同——我们被告知某事时需要在脑中构建画面，而每个人的想象方式天差地别。

And then I can play you the idea and then you can say, oh, that's really good. And it's completely different because we when we hear when we're told something, we have to imagine what that is. And the way you see something and imagine it and the way I see something and imagine it are completely different.

所以你说一件事，现在有两个人在脑海中以不同的方式想象它，然后有一个很酷的创意步骤，当你真正去做时，会发现它与想象中的差异，而这种差异或共同点就像一起发现的小惊喜。

So you say a thing, and now there's two humans that play that thing in their mind differently in their imagination, and then there's a cool creative step, and when you actually do it, to see how it differs in the imagination, and then the difference or the commonality will be like an exciting little discovery together.

嗯，很多很多团队在一个房间里一起创作，一个人提出建议，房间里另一个人可能会说，那听起来不是个好主意。我们别那么做。然后他们就继续前进。对每个想法进行测试真的很重要。这样你才能看到，哦，这完全不是我想象中的样子。

Well, so many so many groups of people making things together in a room, one person will suggest something and someone else in the room say, that that doesn't sound like a good idea. Let's not do that. And then they move on. The the testing of every idea is really important. And that's how you get to see, oh, that's not at all what I thought it was gonna be.

这种事经常发生在我身上。我知道因为有人会建议，我们为什么不这样做？然后我会想，那听起来不太好。但接着我会想，好吧，试试看吧。然后我们听到了，十次有八次，它完全出乎我的意料，而且很棒。

It happens to me all the time. I I know because someone will suggest, why don't we do it like this? And I'll think, that sounds bad. And then I'll think, okay, let's try it. And then we hear it and then, you know, eight times out of 10, it's nothing like I imagined and great.

而且你要尽量不因为自己最初认为这不是个好主意而固执己见。

And you try not to have an ego about the fact that you thought it was not a good idea in your head.

在这个过程中不能有任何自我。如果每个人都抱着做出最好作品的目的而来，那就没有其他杂念。你知道，在这方面不能有任何限制。

There can't be any ego in this. It doesn't if if if everyone's there with the purpose of making the best thing we can, there's nothing else. You know, there are no there can't be any boundaries to that.

所以我看到过一个时刻——我知道你不喜欢谈论以前做过的事，但深入探讨一下还挺酷的。

So there's a moment I saw with I know you don't love talking about previous things you've done, but it's cool to dive in there.

哦，我我我很乐意聊

Oh, I'm I'm I'm fine to talk

或许吧。尝试一下。有什么想法吗？好吧，我现在必须谈谈这个困扰我的问题。我会想出一个荒谬的理由来说服你改变主意。

to maybe. To sample it. Anything? Well, I have I have this pain I gotta talk now. I'll I'll think of something ridiculous that would that would make you change your mind.

你提到我看过你和Jay Z合作《99 Problems》的视频，你建议用无伴奏合唱（acapella）作为歌曲开场。没有乐器，只有人声。对我来说，这正是你激发艺人潜能的典型方式之一——做减法，趋向某种形式的极简。那个无伴奏的选择非常有趣，因为很多人可能觉得这是个糟糕的主意，结果却成了极具力量的创意。能否谈谈你对极简的理解？如何找到极简？

You mentioned I saw a video of you with with Jay Z working on 99 problems where you suggested acapella opening the the song with acapella. Just no no instruments, just voice. That to me I mean, that's one of the characteristics of the things of the ways you've brought out the best in artists is doing less, sort of the tending towards simplicity in some kind of way. So that that that choice of acapella is really interesting because, like, I could see a lot of people think that that's a bad idea, but it turned out to be a really powerful idea. Can you maybe talk about the simplicity, How to find simplicity?

为什么你认为极简是美的？它确实显得很美。这是为什么？

Why you find simplicity as beautiful? It does appear to be beautiful. What is that?

是的。我不清楚这种理念从何而来。从我工作伊始它就伴随着我，我制作的第一张专辑里，我署名的制作人 credits 写的是'由我删减'而非'由我制作'。我喜欢回归本质的理念，经过这些年的实践我现在更清楚了，但当时纯粹是本能驱使。部分原因在于声音效果——元素越少，每个现存元素就越清晰，音质也更好。

Yeah. I I don't know where it comes from. It it has been with me from the beginning of my work, The very first album I ever produced, the credit I took was reduced by me instead of produced by me for that reason. Like, I like the idea of getting to the essential, and I I have a better idea now that I've done it for a while, but at the time, it was purely an instinctual thing. And part of it is a sonic there's a sonic benefit, which is the less elements you have, you can hear each of the ones that are there and they can sound better.

元素越少，它们周围的空间就越多，你越能听出它们的个性。如果录十个人弹奏同样的吉他段落，听起来就像吉他声；如果只录一个人弹，听起来就是某人在弹吉他。这与单纯的吉他声不同。录音室里常见层层叠加、不断加厚以制造宏大效果的做法，但有时添加越多，听起来反而越单薄。

And the less there are, the more the more space they could have around them and the more you can hear their personality. If you were to record 10 people playing the same guitar part and you listen to it, it would sound like guitar. And if you could look play record one person playing a guitar part, it sounds like a person playing the guitar. It's different than just guitar. And the often in the studio, the idea of building upon things and adding adding layers to thicken, to make it sound bigger, sometimes the more things you add, the smaller it gets.

所以这...这很多情况下是反直觉的，直到在实践中验证什么才真正有效。

So it's a it's a a lot of it is counterintuitive until you just in practice see what what works.

试试看。不断删减直到恰到好处。就像爱因斯坦说的：尽可能简单，但不要过分简单。这就像寻找一个恰到好处的停止点。

Try it. So try removing stuff until it's just right. It's the Einstein thing. Make it make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. That's such a like, finding a stopping place.

只管不停地砍削再砍削。

Just keep chopping away and chopping away.

没错。我们还有个喜欢用的方法叫'无情剪辑'，比如说——这适用于任何事，但我以专辑为例——我们录了25首歌，原计划选10首。但我们不选最喜欢的10首，而是限定在五六首绝对不能缺少的作品。

Yeah. There's something we we also like to do called the ruthless edit, which is let's say you're at a point where it can work for anything, but I'll give you the example with an album. We've recorded 25 songs. We think the album's gonna have 10. Instead of picking our favorite 10, we limit it to what are the five or six that we can't live without.

这样甚至超越原定目标，直指核心，然后看：好了，这五六首必不可少，现在要添加什么能让它更好而非更糟？这种从构建而非删减开始的思维方式会改变你的创作视角。

So going past even the goal to get to the real, like, heart of it and then see, okay, have these five or six that we can't live without. Now, what would we add to that that makes it better and not worse? And it's just it it it puts you in a different frame when you start with building instead of removing.

你可能会发现根本无需添加任何东西。

And you might find that there's nothing you need to add.

有时候是这样。当你触及本质后，再尝试添加时就会明白：它本就该是这么个紧凑的小作品。

Sometimes. Sometimes something happens when you get to the real essence. Then when you start adding things back, it becomes clear that it was just supposed to be this tight little thing.

能问你个心理诊疗式的问题吗？你曾提到进入音乐世界的某种方式是浏览史上百大专辑榜单，像欣赏艺术品般逐一品味。我实践过一阵——这很酷，但惭愧地说我变懒了，不再整张专辑地欣赏。有次我看了《滚石》杂志的Top500榜单...

Can I ask you, like, a therapy session question? So I'd like I'd like you you mentioned somewhere that one way to kind of think about music to get into music is to look at the top, like, 100 albums of all time and just go down the list and, like, just take it all in like one piece of artwork. So I I was doing that for a while. It's it's a cool experiment because, unfortunately, I have to admit, I've gotten lazy and stopped taking in albums as albums. And I I looked at one interesting top 100 list, top 500 actually, which is put together by Rolling Stone.

接下来是心理咨询环节——这也与简约有关——他们把马文·盖伊的《What's Going On》列为榜首（剧透预警）。想听听你对此选择的看法。

And they put this is the therapy session part. This has to do with simplicity too. They put Marvin Gaye's what's going on at number one. Spoiler alert. So I'd like to maybe get your opinion on that choice.

马文·盖伊真正有趣的原因在于，其实稍后播放《What's Going On》会很酷，但当你只听他的无伴奏清唱，仅仅聆听他的嗓音，那真的太棒了。这让我不禁思考，是否有可能不用任何乐器就能演绎他大部分歌曲。比如在《Mercy Mercy Me》《What's Going On》等许多作品中，仅人声就蕴含了如此丰沛的灵魂。有太多歌曲会让你觉得，或许可以完全清唱，或者部分段落清唱，又或者像你和Jay Z合作时那样，毫无伴奏地开场。总之，一个充满灵魂的卓越嗓音具有某种震撼人心的力量。

The the the reason Marvin Gaye is really interesting, and it actually be cool to to play what's going on in a second, but when you just listen to his, like, acapella, just listen to his voice, it is really good. Like, people it makes me wonder if it's possible to pull off, like, most of his songs with no instruments. Like, in many parts, there's so much soul in just Mercy Mercy Me, What's Going On. There's so many songs that you could just be like, I wonder if you could just, like, just go raw or maybe in parts or maybe do what you do with Jay Z, just open up with nothing. Anyway, there's something so powerful to a great soulful voice.

介意我立刻播放一下吗？

Do you mind if I play it real quick?

不介意，请便。

No, please.

《What's Going On》可能是我最爱的歌曲之一，绝对名列前茅。那种嗓音，加上些微若隐若现的和声。

What's going on? It's probably one of my favorite songs. I mean, it's up there. That voice. Just some just very subtle backing vocals.

这段令人心碎。'父亲啊父亲，我们不必让冲突升级'

This one hurts. Father father, we don't need to escalate.

我在想他歌词里提到的父亲究竟是谁。

I wonder who the father he's talking about is.

哦，这很有意思。可能很多人不知道，马文·盖伊最终是被自己的父亲杀害的。是的。对许多人而言，与父母的关系——无论是父亲还是母亲——都存在着复杂的情感纠葛。人生的一部分似乎就是在解开这些与你所爱之人、亲近之人或缺席之人相关的复杂谜题。'我们不必让冲突升级，父亲啊父亲'——这句歌词承载着太多无需激化的痛苦。

Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I have so for people who don't know, his his own father ended up killing Marvin Gaye. Yeah. I mean, that one is really pain I mean, for a lot of people, your relationship with your father, your mother I mean, there's different dynamics, but there's it's almost like part of life is resolving some kind of complex puzzle you have with the people you love, the people close to you, or the people who are not there, all those kinds of things. There's so much pain that we don't need to escalate father, father.

我从未想过这个问题，我一直以为那是他父亲直接的影响。

I never thought if it's I always thought it's his father directly.

是啊，我不太明白。可能是吧，但我感觉那更像是一种阳刚的灵性。

Yeah. I don't get that. It could be, but I I don't I feel like it's a more masculine spirituality.

像是父亲形象，还是泛指某种灵性？

Like a father figure or just broadly some kind of spirituality?

可能是类似上帝的概念。父神、母神，你知道的，可能是这样。我也不确定。

Could be like God. Father God, mother God, you know, like, could be. I don't know.

但这里面蕴含了太多东西，既有希望又有忧郁。他说战争是...

But there's there's so much it's like both hope and melancholy. He's saying war is

不是解决之道。就像你不会对你父亲说战争不是答案，你不会对你血缘上的父亲说战争不是解决之道。这是个奇怪的对话。所以这比个人层面的对话更宏大。

not the answer. It's like you would you don't tell your father war is not your your blood father war is not the answer. It's a strange conversation. So it's a bigger conversation than a personal

你不觉得如果战争涉及个人，感觉就不一样了吗？个人层面的战争有何不同？战争对个人同样切身。只有领导者会从地缘政治角度思考战争。没错，当人们参与战争时，失去的是自己的兄弟。

Don't you think it feels like war if one is personal? What's the difference between the war is personal too. It's only leaders think about war in a geopolitical sense. Yeah. When people that fight wars, you lose your brothers.

你输了，我是说，死亡就在眼前。是的。所以可能感觉就是那样。但是，是的，个人与整个社会对话之间存在一种舞蹈。就像约翰·列侬的《Imagine》，那首歌是充满希望的吗？

You lose I mean, you death is just right there. Yeah. So it might feel just like that. But, yeah, there is a dance between, like, the personal and, like, talking to the entirety of the society. It's like, John Lennon, imagine, like, also a song where is that is that hopeful?

那是愤世嫉俗吗？是忧郁吗？心碎吗？就像你希望、你渴望事情是某种样子，但它们不是。是的。

Is that cynical? Is it, like, melancholy? Like, heartbroken? Like, you you hope, you wish things would be a certain way and they're not. Yeah.

我不知道。我不确定约翰·列侬在《Imagine》里是否对世界放弃了希望。

I don't know. I don't know John Lennon is giving up on the world in Imagine.

是的。我不知道。不。这是个有趣的问题。约翰·列侬还有一句歌词，让我想想是哪首。

Yeah. I don't know. No. It's a it's an interesting question. There's another John Lennon lyric in let me think of what it is.

给我一点时间。不同的歌不断浮现在我脑海，但不是我要找的那首。

Take me a second. Different songs keep coming into my head, not the one that I'm looking for.

而你一直在按下一首。

And you keep pressing next.

《Across the Universe》里唱道，没有什么能改变我的世界。当我听到这句时，我觉得它是绝望的。但我不认为——好吧，这可能是他的本意，但我不认为人们通常这么理解。

Across the universe, nothing's gonna change my world. And when I hear that, I hear it as hopeless. But I don't think I don't believe that that's well, it may be how he meant it, but I don't think that's how it's normally taken.

而且接受者也很重要。我总体上乐观且充满希望，所以我总是寻找希望，实际上，那些最残酷的失恋情歌对我来说总带着某种希望。那才是情歌。对我来说，一首关于失去爱的歌，恰恰是在歌颂人类心灵中爱的巨大容量。这就是我听到的。

And it's also the taker is important. I'm generally optimistic and hopeful, so I I I always, like, look for the hope and the actually, the harshest love heartbreak songs are always somehow hopeful to me. That's a love song. To me, like, a song about losing love is is a song about the great capacity for love in the human heart. That's what I hear.

是的。所以对我来说，失去爱是令人兴奋的，因为这表明你曾真正在乎过。这意味着你感受过、正在感受着某些东西。你可以沉浸在那痛苦中，而那痛苦正是人性的证明。当你处于那种状态时——我们刚才在听什么来着——唯一能触动我的人是传教士的儿子。

Yeah. So to me, losing love is exciting because it's like that means you really cared. That means you felt something, you feel something. You can sit in that pain, and that pain is a reminder what it means to be human. When you're that, what is it, we're just listening, the only man who could ever reach me was the son of a preacher man.

所以你看，那种早期的爱恋或带有情欲成分的感情，对我来说没那么有趣。它很愉快，很棒。但真正的失恋，才是能让人深入骨髓的提醒。

So see, it's like that early love or something or partially sexual or whatever, that's not as interesting to me. It's fun. It's great. That's that heartbreak. That's the reminder they can go deep.

虽然那确实是首绝妙的好歌。

Although that's a damn good song.

你听过马文·盖伊专辑的底特律混音版吗？

Have you ever heard the Detroit mix of the Marvin Gaye album?

没有。

No.

找来听听吧。

Call it up.

怎么

How

好太多了。震撼人心。我最近才听到。它让我大吃一惊。

How far better. Mind blowing. I just heard it recently. It blew my mind.

哦，哇。回响遥远。有趣。感觉像是充满了整个房间。更多的声音。

Oh, wow. Reverb distant. Interesting. Feels like it's all around the room more. More voices.

更多的声音。他在叠加自己的声音。感觉像是多人在合唱。是的。很美。

More voices. He's layering his own vocals. Feels like there's multiple people singing. Yeah. It's beautiful.

是的。似乎更有活力。如果你听完整张专辑，尽管你刚才说你不再听专辑了，底特律混音版的整张专辑改变了很多。

Yeah. It seems to have more energy. If you if you listen to the whole album, even even though you just said you don't listen to albums anymore, the Detroit mix of the whole album changes the album a lot.

我是说，那感觉与无伴奏合唱相反，我会这么说。是的。因为有层次，而且——也许你不记得了，但如果我没记错的话，他在这里自己制作了这张专辑。我相信马文·盖伊是这张专辑的制作人。

I mean, that that felt so that's the opposite of acapella, I would say. Yes. Because it's it's there's layers, there's and and maybe I don't know if you remember, but if memory serves me correct here, he produces this own album here. Marvin Gaye was the producer on this, I believe.

我相信是的。而这个版本听起来更像是一场聚会。整张专辑听起来更像是一群人在房间里一起演奏音乐，而专辑版本听起来更像是一次录音。这个听起来不那么像录音，更像是一场派对。

I believe so. And this one sounds more like it's a get together. And the whole album sounds more like a get together where it's a group of people in a room playing music together, whereas the album version sounds more like an out like a recording. This sounds less like a recording and a little more like a party.

现在你与保罗·麦卡特尼进行了一系列对话，这太棒了，人们应该看看。但这是否意味着我们正在继续我们的治疗会话？有没有可能说现在的情况是，某张专辑排名第一，超过了披头士的《白色专辑》或《艾比路》，甚至超过了《宠物之声》？你还能为此辩护吗？

Now you had a series of conversations with Paul McCartney, which is amazing that people should should watch. But is is there this is continuing our therapy session. Is there a case to be made that what's going on is number one album above the Beatles, White Album, or Abbey Road above Pet Sounds? Can you still manage case?

总是有辩护的余地。我是说，总有可能。实际上，在艺术领域，没有真正有意义的衡量标准。你可以给事物打分，但这就像问这个苹果比那个桃子更好吗？这并不公平。

There's there's always a case. I mean, there's always a case. Every there's no in reality, in art, there is no there's no metric that makes sense. So you could put numbers on things, but it's like, is this apple better than this peach? Like, it's not really a fair comparison.

但如果你必须保留一张来代表人类物种，这就是我想对外星人说的方式。

But if you just had to keep one to represent the human species, that's the way I think to the aliens.

所以我认为这是一个非常个人化的决定。我不认为你能替全人类做出选择，我会做出我的选择。明白吗？

So I think it's a very personal decision. I don't I think you can make you can make your choice to represent the human species, and I'll make mine. You know?

好吧，我会选择披头士而不是海滩男孩，这就是我的选择——如果我成为世界独裁者，我会这样告诉外星人。但我并不完全了解音乐背后的历史影响。我不知道这是否需要考虑，就像这种思想实验：想象一下当时在录音室里创作、进行如此有趣的工作是什么感觉，而不是仅仅把它当作一首流行歌曲来听，因为我一直无法理解海滩男孩的《唯有上帝知晓》。

Well, I would pick the Beatles over Beach Boys, so that's my if I became dictator of the world, I was talking to the aliens. But I don't know the full historical context to the impact of the music. I don't know if that's something to consider, like, this kind of thought experiment of imagine what it was like back then to create, to go into the studio, to do such interesting work in the studio, as opposed to, like, listening to just as pop song almost from because I've never been able to understand Beach Boys, God Only Knows.

你是说《唯有上帝知晓》这首歌？

The song God Only Knows?

《唯有上帝知晓》，但整张专辑，《宠物之声》，就是……

God Only Knows, but all of it. The the album, the Pet Sounds, just

《在我的房间》？

In My Room?

《在我的房间》。

In My Room.

《宠物之歌》？

Pet Song?

这是你专辑里最喜欢的那首吗？那个

Is is that what was your favorite on the album? That

哦，在《宠物之声》专辑里？《宠物之声》。开场的曲目。

Oh, on the Pet Sounds album? Pet Sounds. The opening track.

你介意

Do mind if

我播放它吗？请。

I play it? Please.

这这这太有趣了。

It's it's it's too fun.

不过那是他们旅行的一部分。

That's part of their trip though.

你你你用乐趣打开心扉？

The you you open the heart with the fun?

有可能。

It's possible.

原始、单声道和立体声混音版本。

Original, mono, and stereo mix versions.

我不知道

I don't know

那是什么意思。

what that means.

开场曲是什么？《Wouldn't It Be Nice》？《Wouldn't It Nice》。对，就是这首歌。

What's the opening song? Wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it nice. Yeah. That's the song.

这部分很棒。是啊。然后又回到欢乐的旋律。没错。

This part is great. Yeah. And then back to fun. Yeah.

这样我们就能互道晚安却依然相守。

That we could say goodnight and stay together.

那不是很美好吗？在晚安后我们一同醒来，但我们没有。这首歌里也有心碎。不过对我来说，比如乔治·哈里森的，那是《White Album》里的吧？《While My Guitar Gently Weeps》。

Wouldn't that be nice? In the goodnight, we wake up together, But we're not. There's heartbreak in this one too. Still, to me, like, George Harris, like, is that the White Bear album? While my guitar gently weeps.

说到披头士，真的很难选，每天我可能会说不同的歌是我的最爱，但我经常把《While My Guitar Gently Weeps》当作我最喜欢的歌。

I mean, with the Beatles, it's so hard to depending on the day, I'll I'll I'll say a very different song, that's my favorite song, but I often return to while my guitar gently weeps as my favorite song.

太棒了。太棒了。

Spectacular. Spectacular.

说实话，乔治·哈里森的任何作品，《Something》《The Way She Moves》。我会怎么归类这些？披头士的歌有好几种类型。那首属于忧郁的情歌或民谣之类的。《Yesterday》《Let It Be》。

And anything George Harrison, honestly, something something in the way she moves. The bet I what would you classify that? There's, like, several Beatles songs, categories of Beatles songs. So that that's, like, the melancholy love songs or ballads or something like that. Yesterday, Let It Be.

你有什么特别的喜好吗？从你的经历来看，作为一个男人、一个人、一个音乐人和音乐制作人，在与麦卡特尼进行过那次长时间的互动后，你发生了怎样的改变？

What's do you have favorites? So from your like, how have you changed as a man, as a human being, as a musician, and music producer ever having done that lengthy interaction with with McCartney?

每当你与这样的英雄人物相处，发现他们也不过是普通人时，这能帮你重新审视一切。你知道吗？哦，原来他们也只是凡人。当然，这显而易见。我是说，每个人都是普通人。

Anytime you're around someone who's such a hero and you spend time with them and they're a human being, it helps put perspective on everything. You know? Oh, they're just human. That Well, obviously. I mean, every everyone's just human.

但我记得第一次看保罗·麦卡特尼现场演出时，那是在一个容纳7万人的体育场。当他开始演奏时，我泪流满面。即便身处7万人之中，我仍难以置信——这个男人真实存在于世上，而我竟与他同处一地。他就是创作并演奏那些作品的人，此刻正为我们现场表演，这太震撼了。那个声音，那种感受...简直令人窒息。

And but I remember the first time I got to see Paul McCartney play live, it was in a stadium of 70,000 people. And he started playing and I started crying. And I couldn't believe I was in even with 70,000 people, I couldn't believe I that this man walks the earth and that I'm in the same place as him, and he's the person who wrote that and played that, and now he's here playing it for us, it's mind blowing. That's the voice. That's the I It's overwhelming.

这是激励还是...因为有时候当你...（我也有过类似经历）我其实很爱与人相处，每个人都让我着迷。但当你长期崇拜某人后真正见到本尊时——恕我直言——会发现'哦，他们也只是凡人'。所以这是双重的：既因平凡人类能创造如此美好事物而受鼓舞，又隐约希望真有什么神明行走人间。

Is it inspiring or is it like, because sometimes when you have and I've gotten a chance to I mean, I I love people in general. Like, every every person is fascinating to me. But, yeah, when you've been a fan for a long time and you meet a person, sort of I'll just remove present company, is you it's like, oh, they're just human. So there's both. It's both inspiring that just a simple human can achieve such beautiful things, but it's also, like, almost wishing there were gods moving around us.

这种认知莫名让人平静。知道世上存在'更大的鱼'反而令人安心——我只是条小鱼，而那些大鱼会替我们守护这片海洋。

It's somehow peaceful. It's just it's more comforting to know that there's, you know, there's bigger fish. I'm I'm just a small fish, and then there's bigger fish, and they will take care of the ocean for us.

我认为每个人都有成为大鱼的潜力。我不相信存在什么特殊人群，事情不是那样的。

I think we are all capable of being big fish. I don't I don't think that there are special people. I don't think it it's like that.

我想提出一个观点：从你合作过的众多艺术家以及你激发他们最佳状态的能力来看，你似乎确实...

I I would make a case. So the the variety of artists that you worked with and brought the best out of, it does seem that you're out of

这个

this

世界。那么你认为你会知道吗，比如，如果你是同一类物种？也许你只是一具肉体载体，正从别处接收想法。

world. So do you think you would know, like, if you're the same kind of species? Maybe you're just a meat vehicle and you're channeling ideas from somewhere else.

我觉得自己百分百是在接收来自别处的想法。但我认为

I feel like I'm channeling ideas from somewhere else a 100%. But I think

你问过这些想法来自哪里吗？

Have you asked questions about where from?

我相信我们都是——我相信我们都是。你知道，我认为我们是信息的载体，当信息准备通过时，它就会到来。而那些拥有良好接收天线的人能捕捉到这个信号。但我确信你生活中也有过这样的经历：你对某件事有了想法却没有行动，最终别人实现了它。这不是因为他们偷了你的想法，而是因为那个想法实现的时机到了。

I believe we all I believe we all are though. You know, I believe we are we're vehicles for information that when it's ready to come through, it comes through. And the people who have good antennas pick up the signal. But if I'm sure you've had an experience in your life where you've had an idea for something and you've not acted on it and eventually someone else does it. And it's not because they're doing it because you had the idea and they stole your idea, it's because the time has come for that idea.

如果你不做，别人就会

And if you don't do it, someone else is gonna

去做。它正被某个源头广播出来。

do it. It's being broadcast by whatever the source is.

无论源头是什么。

Whatever the source is.

是的。我倾向于认为人类在这方面并不特别。是的。你们就像是不同种类的天线在四处走动，接收各种想法，而我喜欢理查德·道金斯关于模因的概念。想法就像是生物体，它们利用我们的大脑进行繁殖、选择、竞争和进化。

Yeah. I tend to I tend to see humans as not quite special in that way. Yeah. You it's it's different kinds of antennas walking around listening to ideas, and ideas are I like the the notion of Richard Dawkins of memes. It's kind of the ideas of the organisms, and they're just using our brains to multiply, to to select, to compete, to evolve.

人类总是想紧紧抓住我们身体和思想的独特性，但真正重要的是那些想法。所以，如果里克·鲁宾出生在两个世纪前，你不会成为一名音乐制作人。你可能会——我是说，也许吧，但你有一个接收器。是的。如果没有信号进来，或者你可能会接收到完全不同的信号。

And humans, we really wanna hold on to the specialness of our body, of our mind, but it's it's really the ideas. So if Rick Rubin was born two centuries ago, you wouldn't be a music producer. You'd be or or, I mean, maybe, but you you have an antenna. Yep. And if no signal's coming in, or you'd be hearing potentially a different signal.

有没有

Is there

我认为我们每个人都有自己独特的天线，接收那些属于我们的东西。也许不是每个人都调谐过自己的天线，去发现他们擅长传递什么。我很幸运，因为它找到了我，因为我甚至不知道这是一份职业。

I think we all have our own antenna for whatever it is that we, you know, maybe not everyone has tuned into their antenna to see what it is that their strength in bringing through is. I'm lucky in that it found me because I didn't know that it was a I didn't even know this was a job.

我有时会想，许多年轻人，许多人都在思考：我的天线究竟有什么目的和特性？我来到这个地球是为了做什么？如果我能活一千次，有那么多可能的轨迹。想象一下，那条能让我创造出这世上最美之物、以最美方式生活的轨迹，究竟是什么？

I sometimes wonder I mean, a lot of young people, a lot of people wonder, like, what's the purpose and the specs of my antenna? What am I put on this earth to do? Like, if, you know, I can live a thousand lives. There's so many trajectories. And imagine the greatest possible trajectory that reveals the the most beautiful thing I can possibly create in this world, live in the most beautiful way, what is that?

我觉得这是个值得思考的好问题，因为想到你可以做任何事情也是一种解放。我想，生活越来越像这样。社会在强加给你一致性，对吧？我以为我有一套自己遵循的一致性标准。

I feel like that's a good exercise to think about because it's also liberating to think that you can do anything. I mean, that more and more, I I suppose that's kind of life. It's like society is pushing conformity on you. You know? I thought I I I had my own flavor of conformity I thought I was supposed to be following.

早年间，大概二十多岁的时候，你会突然意识到，等等，你不必非得按照老师、父母或社会的要求行事。比如，如果我听从那些认为西装是某种象征的同事——其实那象征的是从众，这挺讽刺的——我就永远不会穿西装。但事实上，这本身就是一种反叛。做这些看似愚蠢的播客节目也是如此。

And then early on, I would say, like, in the late twenties, you realized, wait a minute. You don't have to tell you don't have to do what teachers tell you to do, what parents tell you to do, what society tells you to do. You can like, I would never wear a suit if I listened to, like, my colleagues in community who think a suit is, like, the symbol of what is it? A symbol of conformity, actually, which is hilarious. But it's actually a kind of rebellion and everything else, like, of that nature doing doing these silly podcasts, like

我有个问题必须问一下。既然你提到西装——这是你录播客之外的日常装扮吗？

I I have a question I have to ask Sure. Because you brought up the suit. Yeah. Do you wear the suit? Is this your daily uniform outside of podcasting?

很长一段时间里，我确实常穿西装。但最近搬去德州后，我这个彻头彻尾的孤僻内向者开始穿其他衣服，有点像在躲避世界。我真心不想让名声、认可或金钱成为任何动机，而外界总在诱导你追求这些。

So for the longest time, it was some kind of suit. And then recently, I mean, coinciding with going to Texas, there's a I'm such a loner. I'm an introvert, and there's a bit of a hiding from the world when I wear other stuff. I really want to not make fame, recognition, money, all those things a motivation at all. And the world kind of wants you to make those motivations.

不是全世界都这样，或许该说西方世界，尤其是美国，资本主义体系确实如此，不过...

Not not the world, but I I would say maybe the Western world, and maybe America, maybe a capitalist system does, but

是否接受这种价值观是个人的选择。

That's a choice to buy into that or not.

没错。需要勇气和品格才能拒绝同流合污，我就像只学步的小鹿。其实不必随波逐流——虽然我热爱人群，也自知有些天真，当别人指手画脚时，那种压力确实存在。

Right. It takes a brave person, a person of character to not buy in, and I'm like a like a baby deer trying to find its legs. You don't have to buy in. Because I love people, and I think I'm kind of an idiot. And so when other people say, do this and do that, it there's a there's a pressure there.

既要保持脆弱开放的心态，又不盲从他人建议其实很难。固执己见很容易，但如果你想保持脆弱、真诚待人、敞开心扉，就难免会受他人影响。这是把双刃剑。不过若能不被这种痛苦击垮，反而能从中成长。

It's actually very difficult to not listen necessarily to the advice of others and yet keep yourself fragile and open to the world. It's easy to be like, I'm always right, you know, just kind of sticking your ground. But if you want to be, like, vulnerable, if you want to connect with people and just wear your heart on your sleeve, then you're going to listen to them. I mean, that's the double edged sword of it. And but then again, that pain, like, if you don't let it destroy, you can grow grow from that.

成名对你有任何影响吗？你是否曾在某个时刻选择退出这个体系？

Has fame affected you at all? Did you unplug from the system at some point?

我也是。我一直都保持着某种程度的抽离。我不觉得自己属于任何体系。

Same. I I've always been sort of removed. I I don't feel like I'm part of any system.

你觉得自己有名吗？

Do you feel famous?

我意识到出门时人们会对我说些善意的话，这很棒。但也就仅此而已，差不多就是这样。

I'm aware that when I go out, people, you know, say nice things to me, which is great. Yeah. But that's about it. That's about as far as

仅此而已。但这不会影响你的艺术创作或思想。比如当你独坐思考世界时，它无法干扰你。

it goes. But it doesn't affect your art about your creativity or your thoughts. Like, when you're sitting alone and thinking about the world. It can't.

名声是种破坏力。你能成为现在的你、取得现在的成就，正是因为忠于自我才走到这一步。若开始改变自己去迎合他人对你该做什么的期待，这显然毫无意义。

It's a destructive force. The the thing the reason that you're who you are and the reason that you're finding the success you're finding is because you've been true to yourself to get to that stage. So to start changing that to either conform to someone else's idea of what you should be doing, it just seems like it doesn't make sense.

你清楚自己是谁吗？因为我自己并不一定——

Do you have a sense of who you are? Because I don't necessarily have a

我不知道。我只知道我真的很喜欢创造美好的事物，而且我

I don't know. I I know that I really like making good things, and I

知道

know that

对此近乎痴迷，总希望无论做什么都能做到极致。比如完成一个音乐项目后，若有一段空闲时间，我可能会重新布置家里的家具。你知道，我总是在寻找一个创造性的出口，想办法让某些东西变得更好。有段时间我陷入了一个奇怪的公司环境，无法施展才华，于是我把创造力转向自身，成功减重并改变了生活，

I'm crazy about it in that it's like an obsession, And I want things to be as good as they could be, whatever it is. And if I'm if I finish a music project and I have a window of time where I'm not working on music, I might be moving the furniture around in the house. You know, I'm I'm always looking for a prod a creative outlet to find a way to make something better. Or there was a period of time where I was in a weird corporate situation that was that didn't allow me to flourish. And I turned I focused the creativity in on myself, and I lost a bunch of weight and changed my life and

所以那也是一种艺术形式，就像你经历了整个减肥、塑形、恢复健康的过程。那本身就是一种创造性行为。

So that was the kind of art, like the you've gone through a whole process of losing weight, getting in shape, getting healthy. That was a kind of creative act.

确实如此。虽然并非有意的艺术创作，但我当时充满能量。

It certainly was. It wasn't an intentional creative act, but I had a lot of energy.

嗯。

Yeah.

后来发生了一系列事件。我读了一本书。那时是我体重巅峰期，大约318磅。是的。

And I just a series of events happened. I read a book. At the time, that was my heaviest. I weighed about three hundred and eighteen pounds. Yeah.

而我一生几乎都是久坐不动，基本上躺在沙发上搞音乐创作。所以我这辈子从未有过什么体力活动。后来我读到一本关于一个叫斯图·米特尔曼的跑者的书，他在11天内跑了一千英里。我当时想，哇，我走到街角都会喘，而另一个人能在11天内跑一千英里。感觉我好像接收了错误的信息。

And I'd never been I'd been sedentary my whole life, basically laying on a couch working on music. So I've never been physically active in my life. And I read a book about a guy named Stu Mittleman, a runner, who ran a thousand miles in eleven days. And I thought, wow, I, you know, get out of breath walking to the corner and another human being can run a thousand miles in eleven days. Feel I like I have bad information.

你看，很明显我做错了什么。于是我联系了斯图在书中提到的一个人，菲尔·马费通。

You know, I'm do clearly, I'm doing something wrong. And and I reached out to a person that Stu mentioned in the book, Phil Maffetone.

那可是个传奇人物。我也非常推崇他。他的MAF180方法也是。我觉得他特别有意思，专注于...

Who's a legend. I I really appreciate him as well. He's MAF one eighty method too. He's such an interesting I think he focuses on

心率训练，而且他是最早提出基本上算是低碳水？

Heart rate training and he was the first person to talk about essentially a Low carb?

原始人饮食 对。

Paleo Yeah.

生酮饮食 坚持了四十年

Keto diet For forty years

一个能保持健康、坚持锻炼，甚至达到精英水平的人。当我开始了解心率训练时，他是第一个让我明白可以跑得慢一点的人，受他影响的其他耐力运动员也是。这给了我许可，让我可以跑得更慢。是的，那是我第一次意识到，哦，只要跑慢点，我就能跑长距离，然后认真对待这件事。实际上我因此深深爱上了跑步，因为对我来说——每个人情况不同——但对我来说，对跑步的热爱发生在跑更长距离的时候。

a person who's going to be healthy, who can exercise, and actually perform at an elite level. He's the first person when I, you know, talk about heart rate training, him and other endurance athletes he influenced, he gave me permission to, like, run slower. Yeah. It was the first time I realized, oh, I can run long distances if I just run slower and and then take that seriously. And I actually fell in love with running very much so, because for me, everyone's different, but for me, the love of running happens in the longer distances.

是啊。你读过《天生就会跑》吗？

Yeah. Did you read Born to Run?

嗯。

Mhmm.

很棒的书。

Great book.

了不起的书。跑步有种特别的魔力，每个人都有自己的跑步历程。即便是超级马拉松这类极限运动，它就像多条交织的旅程，一旦投身其中，你将脱胎换骨。

Amazing book. There is something special about running, and everybody has their own their own journey with it. And even ultramarathon running, those kinds of things. It's it's a it is, like, many journeys, one that can pull you in. Like, you won't be the same person after.

我刻意选择那些能重塑自我的经历。所以对超级马拉松领域既向往又忐忑。嗯，我得跟你聊聊约翰尼·卡什的事。

And I I try to be deliberate about making choices after which you'll not be the same person. Yeah. And so I'm nervous about, like, the ultramarathon running world. Mhmm. I have to talk to you about Johnny Cash.

当有人问我史上最爱的音乐作品，这当然很难抉择——但若不能选汤姆·威兹的歌，我会立刻说是约翰尼·卡什的《Hurt》。那不仅是翻唱，是生命尽头最赤裸的告白。MV固然增色不少，但仅就音乐本身——吉他的每个音符都像偶然迸发的神迹。那些细微处理...据说制作过程充满意外之美。他在某种程度上重塑了约翰尼·卡什的艺术生命，你能聊聊这个吗？

I mean, when people ask me what my favorite musical thing is of all time, You know, it's a very difficult question to answer, of course, but I'm pretty quick, if I'm not allowed to pick anything by Tom Wais, I'm pretty quick to say hurt by Johnny Cash, the performance, the whatever you call it, whatever the heck that is. Because that's not just a song covered by an artist, that's a human being at the end of their life, that the rawness of that, I mean, just the there's also a music video, which for a lot of people adds a lot to it. For me, just the music alone is I mean, the guitar, every choice on that see, the the the few things I've heard about it, it seemed like almost accidental. I mean, like, little subtle choices here and there. Can you maybe comment on that to to the degree I I think he had a huge role in sort of bringing Johnny Cash back from a different part of his life.

这就像挖掘出从未示人的珍宝，简直不可思议。那是对传奇音乐家全新的礼赞——而《Hurt》堪称巅峰之作。当时是怎么打磨这首歌的？要不我们边听边聊？我实在太爱这首歌了。

It's like bringing something out that wasn't there before, and it was it was it was incredible. It was a celebration of a really special musician, and and it's totally new kind of celebration. Now Hurt is just one of the songs that's that's a that's a that's an amazing celebration of Johnny Cash, but Hurt is, like, at the at the the peak of that. So what was that like putting that song together? Can may maybe it might be nice to listen to it because I freaking love that song.

作为一名吉他手，我欣赏它的简洁，似乎每个选择都为这首歌的伟大贡献了力量。简单，干脆，却又带着黑暗。我伤害了自己

And as a guitarist, I just the simplicity of it, it seems like every choice contributes to the greatness of the song. Simple, it's crisp, but it's dark too. I hurt myself

这是所有歌曲中最伟大的开场白之一。

It's one of the greatest opening lines of any song.

形状就是这样。是的。为了确认我是否还有感觉

The shape That's that. Yeah. To see if I still feel

是的。我在说歌词。我甚至不是在谈论表演。那些文字是唯一的

Yeah. I'm talking about the lyrics. I don't even mean the performance. The words are The only

但特伦特·雷兹诺写下的这些词句，从约翰尼·卡什口中唱出时意义已然不同。

But those words out of Trent Reznor are not the same. They have a different meaning coming out of Johnny Cash's mouth.

我变成了什么？

What have I become?

可能是为一个年轻人而写的。

Written probably for a young man.

我想他写这首歌时20岁。特伦特。

I think he was 20 when he wrote it. Trent.

愤怒、悔恨、痛苦。吉他手的演奏方式，乐器的选择，层次感的构建，赋予他使用逐渐褪去的嗓音的自由。那不是褪去，是在变化。也许他正在失去嗓音的某些特质，听起来几乎有些颤抖，某些部分甚至略微走调。

Anger, regret, pain. The the way the guitarist played, the choice of instrument, the layers there, the the freedom to give him to use the voice that's fading. It's not fading. It's changing. Maybe he's losing some aspects of his voice, and it's and it's it's almost like shaking a little bit, and it's a little bit out of tune in parts.

这其中有多少是刻意为之？有多少像是...你如何给予约翰尼·卡什这样的自由？你们是如何共同找到这种状态的？能分享些见解吗？

How much of that was deliberate? How much was like, how do you give Johnny Cash the freedom to to do that? How do you find that together? Is there any insights you can give?

我认为这几乎像是...合适的配对，好比为合适的角色选择对的演员。我们选择这首歌纯粹是因为歌词。那时约翰尼和我常互相寄送可能录制的歌曲创意，这是我寄给他但他最初没回应的一首。当时我们会刻录CD，我寄给他的CD里可能有20到25首歌，他也会寄些给我。

I think it's a it's a case almost of, like, the right pairing, the right role with the right actor, you could say. The the song lyrics the the reason we chose the song was because of the lyrics, purely about the lyrics. And at that point in time, both Johnny and I would send each other songs of possible ideas to record, and that was one that I sent him and he didn't respond to initially. I sent I would send him c at that time, we would burn CDs and I would send him like CD of 20 songs or 25 songs. And then and he would send them to me.

你为约翰尼·卡什刻录CD，寄给他各种不同的歌曲。

He'd burn a CD for Johnny Cash and you send him all different songs.

都是些备选录制曲目。对。我们就这样来回寄送。后来我把《Hurt》又放进寄给他的CD里，他起初没反应。通常他不回应的话，我们就不会再提了。

Of like songs to consider recording. Yeah. And we would send these back and forth. And then that I had hurt on one of the ones that I sent him and he didn't respond. Usually, if he didn't respond, we didn't go back to it, you know.

是的。我记得那次我重新寄送时，特意把它放在下一张CD的第一首。等他听完CD仍没反应时，我说：听听第一首歌吧，我真的觉得这首会很棒。

Yeah. And that one, I remember I sent it again and I put it first on the next on the next CD. And and when when we spoke about when he listened to the CD again, didn't respond. I said, check out that first song, and I really feel like that one could be good.

你从那首歌里看到了什么？

What did you see in that song?

因为歌词。就是歌词本身。

Because It's the lyrics. It's the lyrics.

因为我觉得世界上几乎没有人——包括特伦特·雷兹诺在内——会认为约翰尼·卡什唱这些歌词是个好主意。

Because I feel like nobody there's very few people in the world that would see these lyrics in Johnny Cash's mouth and think this is a good idea, including Trent Reisner.

是的。我知道特伦特最初确实有顾虑。如果你仔细听歌词，忘记旋律，忘记九寸钉乐队的风格，单纯把它当诗来读，再想象一位七十岁老人念这些词——这会很深刻，非常深刻。正是基于歌词我们开始了这段旅程。当时约翰尼的健康状况并不乐观。

Yeah. I know that Trent was Trent had trepidations in the beginning, if you listen to the words, if you forget the music, and if you get what if you forget what Nine Inch Nails sounds like, and you just read it like a poem, and then you imagine a 70 year old man reading these lyrics, it'll be it'll be profound. It's profound. So that was the based on lyrics that started the journey. And then at this point in time, Johnny was not in great health.

有时我会去纳什维尔在他家里录音，有时他会来加州，但来得越来越少了。因为想尝试的歌太多，有时他会先录个简单的原声版本——比如找人弹吉他，他演唱，然后发给我讨论是否值得继续打磨。当时我们就决定：这首必须等见面再录。

And sometimes I would go to Nashville and record with him at his house. Sometimes he would come to California, but he was coming to California less regularly. And because there was a there were so many songs we wanted to try, he would start sometimes recording just a straight acoustic version. Like, he'd have someone play guitar, he would sing, and they would send those to me, and we would discuss, like, is this one to build on? And that was when we said, I don't wanna record this one until we're together.

我觉得应该一起完成这首歌。后来他来加州时，我们在我的老房子里录了音。其实所有录制的歌都很特别，但这首歌词的深刻程度确实...

I feel like we should do this one together. So on the next trip to California, we recorded it at my at my old house. And, I mean, all the songs we recorded felt special, so I can't say this one felt special. But lyrically, it just it's more the the lyrics have such a profound

充满悔恨。我怎会沦落至此？

sense of regret. What have I become?

是啊。听到一个20岁的年轻人谈论遗憾。确实令人心碎，但这种心碎又有所不同，因为你还有整个人生去领悟。而当你在生命尽头回望一生充满悔恨时，那才是真正的残酷。

Yeah. And to hear a when you're 20 years old talking about regret. Yeah. It's heartbreaking, but it's heartbreaking in a different way because you have your whole life to figure it out. When you're looking back over your life at the end of your life with regret, it's brutal.

没错，残酷至极。这就是最初创作它的火花。后来录制时，我记得是两位吉他手——如果没记错的话，甚至可能是三位：斯莫基·霍内尔、马特·斯威尼和迈克·坎贝尔。

Yeah. It's brutal. So that was the initial spark of doing it. And then we when we recorded it, I believe it was two guitar players, if I remember correctly, maybe even three. Smokey Hornell, Matt Sweeney, and Mike Campbell, I believe.

本·蒙坦奇在我客厅弹着钢琴，我们就这样完成了基础音轨录制，约翰尼负责演唱。之后他可能又在这条音轨上录了几遍人声。我们剪辑了他的演唱部分，逐步构建戏剧张力——虽然你没听到这部分——但歌曲结尾处会变得极其澎湃。

And Ben Montentch was playing the piano in my living room as we were doing it. And we cut the basic track and with Johnny singing. And then Johnny probably sang over that basic track a few more times. And then we comped his vocal and then built up the drama and you didn't get to the part. But at the end of the song, it gets very loud.

音乐声浪逐渐增强，这种变化很微妙，不会突兀地刺激耳朵，因为人声实在太有穿透力，让你无暇顾及背景音乐的层层推进。直到最后甚至出现失真效果，变得极具压迫感，这正是情感表达的重要部分。

The music gets very loud. It's subtle because it's not anything that take takes your ear and the vocal is so powerful that you don't really think about what's going on. Building the whole time music. It's building and it even gets distorted at the end. It gets really, like, over overpowering, and that's part of the emotion of it.

对。

Yeah.

我几乎能听出那种愤怒与挫败感。纯粹的人声就这样迸发出来...如此简洁，又如此震撼。让年轻灵魂的歌词从约翰尼·卡什苍老的嗓音和饱经沧桑的心智中流淌出来，这构思实在精妙。

It's I I hear almost the anger and frustration. And it just rings out Yeah. A clean vocal. I mean, it's so simple, so incredible. And and it's interesting to have a young man's lyrics in in an old Johnny Cash voice and heart and mind.

我想问...你是汤姆·韦茨的乐迷吗？

I had are are you a fan of Tom Waits?

当然。

Of course.

汤姆·威茨年轻时创作了这首歌《玛莎》，他年轻时期写了许多歌曲。问题是，一个年轻人如何拥有那种忧郁的智慧？《玛莎》讲述的是一位年长男子打电话给曾经爱过的女人，如今她已嫁人，他也已婚。他们在对话中意识到，尽管三十年未联系，那份爱依然存在，本可能是另一种人生，另一个他们能在一起的世界。

Tom Waits, when he was younger, had his this is a song called Martha, but there's a bunch of songs he's written when he was young. Was like, how does a young man have that, like, melancholy wisdom? The song Martha is about an older man calling a woman he used to love that she's now married, and he's married. And they're having that conversation. They haven't spoken for thirty years, and they realize that there's still love there, and it could have been a different life, a different world where they could have been together.

23岁的汤姆·威茨竟能如此优美地描绘这样的情感——许多人对我说，作为年长者回望那段爱情时，会真切地感受到它从未真正消失，爱的痕迹依然清晰可辨。

And here's like a 23 year old Tom Wade writing so beautifully about something that's very I've had a lot of people, like, tell me how real that as an older person looking back at that love that you had and realizing it wasn't it was really it's still there. Inklings of that love are still there.

我认为年轻人写悲伤歌曲时，往往更倾向于走向绝望的境地，因为他们还有...

I think there's a when a young person writes a sad song, they almost seem more willing to go to a more hopeless place because they have they have a

漫长的...是的。旅程

long Yeah. Journey

而年长的艺术家更倾向于看到事物光明的一面，这种态度我认为也源于岁月沉淀的智慧。这是更现实的立场。所以年轻人创作沉重歌词并不罕见，比如披头士中后期作品——要知道他们那时才二十出头。

And older artists tend to want to look at the bright side of things, which which also I think comes from the wisdom of aging. It's it's a more realistic position. So it's not uncommon for younger people to write. I think even in the Beatles, you'll see, like, their very heavy lyrics, middle to late era Beatles, which is still you know, they're in their 20 you know, early twenties, I guess.

哇，想想真是难以置信。他们成就如此之多，短短几年间就从欢愉走向了黑暗，完成了完整的蜕变之旅。

Wow. That's hard to think about. So much accomplished. Unbelievable. And they they went to the full full journey from fun to darkness in in the span of a few years.

是啊。

Yeah.

你提到了歌词。显然你制作过许多歌词惊人的专辑。我记得你说过嘻哈或说唱的有趣特点在于，你是按节奏写诗，而非按旋律写诗。这可以算是一种理解方式。没错。

You mentioned lyrics. So you've obviously produced albums with incredible lyrics. I think you've mentioned the interesting characteristics of hip hop of rap is that you're writing poetry to rhythm versus writing poetry to melody. So that's like one way to think about it. Yeah.

我是诗歌的忠实爱好者，比如汤姆·威茨、莱昂纳德·科恩的作品。说到通过歌词突显诗意，就像你在《Hurt》中展现的文字力量。如果要举例，我最常重温的是一首不到一分钟的汤姆·威茨的歌，那是我真心喜爱的。

And I'm a fan, I mean, Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, I'm a fan of poetry, period. Yeah. Is there something about highlighting the poetry of it, the power of words as you did with with hurt. If, like, if I have to play it's one a a Tom Wade song that's, like, less than a minute long that I always go back to. It's one I really love.

只有寥寥数行，歌名叫《I Want You》。整首歌就是22岁的汤姆·威茨反复吟唱着：我要你，你，你。

It has just a few lines. It's called I want you. And all it is is him saying I want you. This is a 22 year old Tom Waits. You, you.

我想要的只有你，你，你。然后他又哼唱了二十多秒。

All I want is you, you, you. And then he hums for twenty more seconds.

嗯。真美。

Yeah. Beautiful.

那个年轻男人的声音低沉...对于不了解汤姆·威茨的人，我强烈推荐去听。如今他的嗓音已截然不同。观察人类声音——尤其是艺术家——随时间演变很有趣，那是种带着少年感的、充满希望的声音，不那么世故机巧，更显质朴。这种简单需要勇气，无论是歌词还是旋律。你是否会刻意突出人声或歌词？还是有其他独特方式？

So so some man, that young man, like, low and but for people who don't know Tom Waits, you should definitely listen to him, his voice sounds very different now. And it's interesting to see the evolution of a human voice, the the artist over time, because that's a young, like, boy like voice, hopeful, less clever, less witty, more simple. That simplicity is there. And he's not I mean, that takes guts to be so simple, I would say, lyrically and musically. Is there sort of laying that out on the table, is there ways to that you like to highlight the voice, the lyrics, or is there no one rule?

那么你认为是什么让音乐变得特别？是节奏、旋律，还是归根结底歌词或创意始终存在？

So do you what is the thing that makes music special? Is it the rhythm, the melody, or is ultimately the lyrics are always there or the idea?

你刚问了我五个不同的问题。我不——

You just asked me five different questions. I don't

在乎。我会直接说重点。这与你无关。你

care. I'll just get that. It's not about you. You

并不想听

don't want the

答案。我也不想听。好吧。

answers. I don't want the Okay.

我会听着。

I'll listen.

我期待网友们的评论。好吧。此刻站在你面前的是史上最伟大的制作人，而他却管不住自己的嘴。没错朋友们。但你确实重视歌词。

I look forward to your comments, the Internet. Okay. You have the greatest producer of all time in front of you, and he can't shut the hell up. That's right, friends. Is but you do value lyrics.

有没有一种方式来赞美歌词？

Is there a way to celebrate lyrics?

如果歌词重要，我会重视歌词。但我不是个注重歌词的人。对我来说，让作品出色的元素才是吸引我的关键。很长一段时间里，歌词对我意义不大。可以说从早期开始——

I value lyrics if the lyrics are important. I'm I'm not a lyric person. I'm I'm very much whatever the thing that makes the thing good is the thing that I'm drawn to for me. For a long time, lyrics meant very little. I would say from the

等等，真的吗？最开始的时候？

Wait. Really? In the beginning?

是的，从最早期的《Fight》

Yes. From the earliest days Fight

《为你的派对权利而战》，野兽男孩的歌？

for your right to party, Beastie Boys?

对，那时候觉得歌词很有趣，但并非关键。更像是种新奇元素，而非严肃表达。职业生涯初期，我更专注于节奏，首先是节奏。

Yeah. It was it was fun. I thought they were good lyrics, but it it wasn't what was important. I mean, it was in a in a almost a novelty way, not in a serious way. Early in my career, I was much more focused on the rhythm, first the rhythm.

即使歌词不够好，我也会注意到，但这并非我的创作驱动力。随着时间的推移，旋律逐渐变得重要——这在最初并非如此。而后歌词也愈发重要。但吸引我的要素始终在变化。我发现歌词力量的差异与节奏有关：当没有鼓点时，歌词往往承载更多意义。

And I would if the lyrics weren't good enough, I would be aware of it, but it wasn't the driving force for me. And eventually over time, then melody became an important piece, which it wasn't in the beginning. And then lyrics became more important over time. But it's always been a always changing what what draws me in. And one of the things I found as it relates to lyrics that that can give a lyric a different power has to do with rhythm where if there's no drum, the lyrics tend to mean more.

所以他之前说的，如果是纯人声演唱，你会以不同的方式感受到马文·盖伊的魅力。

So earlier what he was saying about if it was just acapella, you felt you felt Marvin Gaye in a different way hearing the acapella.

你能评论一下吗？我是说，作为史上最伟大的专辑之一，为什么听起来如此原始？她的嗓音。

Can you comment on I mean, in terms of one of the greatest albums ever. Why does this sound so raw? Her voice.

她就是一位伟大的歌手。

She's just a great singer.

但这——你没有做其他任何处理。只有简单的弹拨，然后是一个单一的节拍，逐渐构建。虽然编曲越来越简单，却感觉像是一支庞大的管弦乐队。还有和声部分。

But this is the you're not doing anything else. You're doing the there's there's there's there's strumming, and then there's just a single beat. And then it builds. This gets simpler, but it feels like it's a giant orchestra. There's backing vocals.

那种愤怒感。我太爱了。如此有力的嗓音，乐器却没有喧宾夺主。就像约翰尼·卡什的《Hurt》一样。为什么听起来这么原始？

The anger. I love it. Like, I just there's something about such a powerful voice and the instruments not getting in the way. I mean, the same with the with Hurt and Johnny Cash. Is is there why does it sound so, like, raw?

和《Hurt》一样。感觉就像你和他们在同一个房间里。他们甚至不像在唱歌，而是刚刚爆发出的愤怒。

It's the same as Hurt. There's a it it feels like you're in the room with them. It feels like they're not even singing. They're like they're freshly mad and angry.

我认为这正是伟大歌手之所以伟大的原因。这与录音棚里的处理无关。我们录音师能做的，就是尽量不干扰、不破坏这种本质。懂吗？这些人的天赋就是这样自然流露的。

I think those are the things that make great singers sound like great singers. It's not it's not anything that that's happening in the studio. I mean, we're we're I would say the only thing that us in the studio can do is kinda get out of the way and not not ruin it. You know? It's like that's that's what comes through of these these people.

趁我没忘记之前，那张CD上有很多歌曲选择。我很想看看完整的选项。在你寄给约翰尼·卡什的那张CD里，我特别喜欢《孤独的人》，那是我最喜欢的选曲之一。那是尼尔·戴蒙德的歌吗？

I should also before I forget, there is a lot of song choices on that CD. I would love to see the full options. On the CD that you sent to Johnny Cash that I love, so solitary man is is one of my favorite choices made there. Is it is that a Neil Diamond song?

有趣的是你把它们当作单曲来讨论，因为我更倾向于听整张专辑而不是单曲。所以

It's funny you talk about them as songs because I tend to I tend to listen more to albums than songs. So

所以你实际上在脑海里是在调出整张专辑的概念？

So you really you're that's what you're doing in your head, you're pulling up the album essentially?

不。我是说，我要听那首歌，但我不确定。我从没单独听过那首歌。但我知道当它在专辑序列中出现时，会对我产生强烈的冲击力。我们直接播放看看效果吧。

No. I'm I'm like, I'm going to that song, but I don't know. I've never listened to that song. But I know that when that when that song comes up in the sequence of the album, it has a really powerful effect in me. Let's see what it does if you just start it.

哇。"铁链缠绕双脚的坚固堡垒/那幽灵就是我/只要有无形的幽灵存在/我就永不得自由"。太美了。如果我能...

Wow. Or a fortress strong with chains around my feet. You know that ghost is me, and I will never be set free as long as there's a ghost that you can't see. That's beautiful. If I could.

如此绝妙的选择。

Such a beautiful choice.

优美的旋律。如此动人的旋律配上萦绕心头的歌词。

Beautiful melody. Such a beautiful melody and haunting words.

唱得如此简单。我，我是说，我出生在苏联。当你成长时，总有那么几支乐队——虽然可能至今仍被禁止——但它们会悄然渗入，通过盗版传播，最终占据我们这些年轻人的文化。比如金属乐有Metallica，还有那些不知该如何归类的，比如Beastie Boys。我记得第一次听到《Fight For Your Right》时，就像许多俄罗斯人一样，莫名就被击中了。那种感觉就像，哇。

Sung so simply. I I have to I mean, so I was I was born in The Soviet Union. When when you're when you're growing up, there's a few bands that kinda I mean, they're probably forbidden still, but they seep in, and you get, like, bootlegged, and and they somehow take over the culture of the young of of the young folks, such as myself. So on the metal side, it was Metallica and I had made and on the I don't know what you call them, but Beastie Boys, I remember hearing Fight For You Right, and it was just like, for some reason, that stuck as it did for a lot of people in Russia. It's like, wow.

美国就是你敢对权威说'去你妈的'的地方。那种反叛，那种自由。我可能是在这首歌发行几年后才听到的，因为文化传播需要时间。你得靠盗版磁带才能搞到，真的很难得手。

America is when you get to say fuck you to the man. The rebellion, the freedom. I probably heard it a few years after it was released because it kinda it dissipates to the culture. You get to bootleg it. I mean, it's hard to get your hands on.

但我记得，我提起这个是因为这首歌对我个人意义重大，而你们可能根本没想到这点。你们大概只想到它在美国文化中的音乐地位。但他——

But I just remember I mean, I I I wanted to kinda bring that up because it it was such a personally important song to me, and yet, probably, you didn't even think of that. You you probably thought of it as its role in the culture here in The United States, like, terms of musically. But he

我当时才二十一岁，我们只是——

just I was, you know, twenty twenty twenty one years old, and we just

你当年也是那样的年轻人啊。

Well, you were that kid too.

对吧？就是做些逗朋友开心的歌，根本没想过会怎样。

Right? Were just making fun songs for our friends. There was no there was no expectation.

所以那就是首纯粹好玩的歌。

So that's just a fun song.

是啊。没人想过我们从未预料到会有人喜欢其中的任何部分。

Yeah. No one thought we never imagined anybody would like any of it.

史上最伟大的专辑之一。

One of the greatest albums ever.

对。我

Yeah. I

必须说，我太爱这张专辑了。我就记得《这就是美国》。老实说，我当初甚至没听懂歌词。那些歌词简直荒谬，太荒谬了。

have to it's I love this so much. I just remember This is America. I didn't even know I didn't even understand the lyrics, to be honest. And the lyrics are ridiculous. Ridiculous.

听到这个，还有金属乐队的《傀儡大师》，我当时就想，总有一天我得去美国。现在可能更成熟了点，我意识到那其实是对自由的渴望。至少在那个时候感觉，如果连这都能被允许，那还有什么不可以。没错，我觉得那种叛逆感，大概也很有趣吧。

So hearing that and hearing Metallica, Master of Puppets, I was like, I knew I'm gonna have to end up in America one day. I've I mean, maybe now that I'm more mature or maybe a little bit more mature, I realized, like, that was kind of the longing for freedom. It felt like, at least at the time, if this is allowed, then anything is allowed. Yeah. And I think that that the rebellion of it, the is I guess it's also fun.

我...我就是爱死了。如果你回顾那段时期，因为你是...我是说，你不仅是制作人，更是亲历者。感觉就像...

I I just I just loved it. Is there if you look back to that, because you're you're a I mean, you were that person, not just the producer. It feels like

嗯，既是也不是。即便对我们当时而言，它也带着讽刺意味。你知道，不完全是那种...绝对化的。

Well, yes and no. Like, it was even to us then, it was still, like, satirical. You know, it wasn't just oh, absolutely.

但音乐不也像是，你在界限上跳舞。某种程度上既是讽刺又是认真的，就像你在讽刺中迷失自我？比如，每次你做得过火时，那不也是其中的一部分吗？还是说这就是明确的讽刺？你在开玩笑，我是说，姑娘们，那张专辑里有很多荒谬的歌。

But isn't, like, music in part like, you're dancing in the line. Is part satirical, part serious in in the sense, like, you're losing yourself in the satire? Like, when you ever anytime you go over the top, isn't that part of the or is this it it explicitly satirical? You're making fun I mean, girls, there's a lot of ridiculous songs in that album.

我不知道。我只是觉得这绝对是为了逗彼此笑。就像，我们当时就是想逗对方笑。是的。我们没想表达什么观点。

I don't know. I just think it's it was definitely to make each other laugh. Like, we were trying to make each other laugh. Yeah. We weren't trying to make a point.

我们当时就是想逗彼此笑。

We were trying to make each other laugh.

但那个人和现在的你有什么不同？那个创作了那些作品的人？

But that person how's that person different than the person today in you? The the person that produced that work?

我不会说有很大不同。就像，我确实喜欢让我笑的东西。你知道，我喜欢荒谬的事物。

I wouldn't say so different. It's like, it really is that that I like things that make me laugh. You know, I like ridiculous things.