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以下是与精神病学家兼人性研究专家保罗·康特的对话。
The following is a conversation with Paul Conte, a psychiatrist and a brilliant scholar of human nature.
我的朋友安德鲁·休伯曼告诉我，我和保罗必须见面聊聊，不仅关于创伤这一话题（保罗曾写过一本关于创伤的精彩著作），还广泛探讨人性。
My friend, Andrew Huberman, told me that Paul and I absolutely must meet and talk, not just about the topic of trauma, which Paul wrote an amazing book about, but broadly about human nature, about narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy, good and evil, hate and love, happiness, and envy.
和往常一样，安德鲁是对的。
As usual, Andrew was right.
这是一次引人入胜的对话。
This was a fascinating conversation.
正如老梗所言，人们不会轻易怀疑安德鲁·休伯曼的建议。
As the old meme goes, one does not simply doubt the advice of Andrew Huberman.
请允许我快速提一下，在这一集中，我与保罗有很多分歧，就像在其他集数中，即使面对专家也是如此。
Allow me to also quickly mention that I disagree with Paul a bunch in this episode, as I do in other episodes, even with experts.
部分是为了乐趣，部分是因为我认为思想和对话的张力正是创造洞见和智慧的源泉。
In part for fun, and in part because I think the tension of ideas and conversation is what creates insights and wisdom.
我的目标是始终共情、理解并探索坐在我对面的人的想法。
My goal is to always empathize, understand, and explore ideas of the person sitting across from me.
分歧只是我认为实现这一目标的乐趣之一，只要我出于好奇心和同情心去这样做。
Disagreement is just one of the ways I think it's fun to do just that, as long as I do so from a place of curiosity and compassion.
现在快速提一下每个赞助商。
And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor.
详情请查看描述部分。
Check them out in the description.
这是支持本播客的最佳方式。
It's the best way to support this podcast.
我们有NetSuite用于企业管理，Indeed用于招聘，InsightTracker用于生物监测。
We got NetSuite for business management, Indeed for hiring, and InsightTracker for bio monitoring.
明智选择，朋友们。
She's wisely, my friends.
另外，如果你想加入我们出色的团队，我们一直在招聘。
Also, if you want to work with our amazing team, we're always hiring.
请访问lexfiedman.com/hiring。
Go to lexfiedman.com/hiring.
现在开始完整版广告播报。
And now on to the full ad reads.
一如既往，中间不会插播广告。
As always, no ads in the middle.
我觉得那种方式很烦人。
I find those annoying.
我尽量让这些内容有趣些，但如果你跳过了，还请去看看我们的赞助商。
I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors.
我很喜欢他们的产品。
I enjoy their stuff.
说不定你也会喜欢。
Maybe you will too.
本期节目由NetSuite赞助播出，这是一套全能云端商业管理系统。
This show is brought to you by NetSuite, an all in one cloud business management system.
他们负责处理所有让企业运转所需的繁琐但关键的事务。
They take care of all the messy but critical things that make a business run.
这有点不可思议。
It's kind of incredible.
人类文明首先能够在小型村落中协作进行狩猎采集，进而发展农业，然后不断建设、发展成越来越复杂的实体，每个个体在其中各司其职，就像细胞中的线粒体一样。
Human civilization together has been able to collaborate first in a small village for hunting and gathering, and therefore agriculture, then to build and build and build into more and more complex entities where each individual human is operating, doing its different roles, like the mitochondria in a cell.
这些细胞共同组成了器官，而器官又构成了人体。
Together, the cells make up organs and the organs make up the human body.
同样地，人类通过协作组建了公司。
In the same way, humans together come together to make a company.
这太不可思议了。
It's incredible.
这些公司构建了庞大的物理架构。
Those companies build gigantic physical architectures.
他们构建了庞大的软件架构。
They build gigantic software architectures.
他们将我们连接在一起。
They connect us.
它们为我们提供服务。
They give us services.
它们实现了发达国家所享有的生活质量，也是发展中国家正在追求的目标。
They enable the quality of life that is observed in the developed world and that the developing world is reaching towards.
我是说，这简直太不可思议了。
I mean, this is just incredible.
但当然，让公司运转的不仅仅是创意，不仅仅是工程师或产品人员，而是整个体系。
But, of course, it's not just the idea, it's not just the engineers or the product people that make a company work, it's the whole thing.
就像人体一样，每个部分都不可或缺。
Everything is needed, just like in the human body.
这其中也有很多混乱的环节。
And there's a lot of messy things.
比如人力资源、库存管理，如果你有线上销售业务，还有电子商务这些繁杂事务。
There's a lot of things like human resources, management of inventory, and ecommerce if you have like an online presence of selling your products.
所有这些财务事务，整个复杂的体系，你都应该使用最适合的工具来处理，而NetSuite正是这样的工具。
All of that, the financial stuff, that whole mess, you should use the best tools for the job for that, and NetSuite is just that.
新年之际，NetSuite为准备升级的用户推出了新的融资计划，详情请访问netsuite.com/lex。
For the new year, NetSuite has a new financing program for those ready to upgrade at netsuite.com/lex.
网址是netsuite.com/lex。
That's netsuite.com/lex.
本期节目也由招聘网站Indeed赞助播出。
This show is also brought to you by Indeed, a hiring website.
如我所提，我们一直在招聘。
Like I mentioned, we're always hiring.
Indeed是我使用的工具箱中的一部分。
Indeed is part of the toolbox that I use.
除了我自己搭建的那些简陋网页外，它是我主要使用的服务。
It's the main service I use outside of my own putting together crappy web pages.
当我真正需要一个能帮我完成大量工作的工具时，我就会使用Indeed。
When I actually want to use a tool that does a lot of the work for you, that's when I use Indeed.
你可以在那里发布职位。
You can post jobs there.
他们拥有即时匹配工具。
They have the instant match tool.
它能立即筛选出高质量候选人，带你完成招聘流程的所有初始阶段。
It gets to the high quality candidates right away so that that first stage it takes you through all the stages.
当然最终，最重要的、也是最困难的阶段他们无法代劳——那就是当你真正进行人与人之间的面对面交流，试图判断是否合适的时候。
And ultimately, of course, in the end, the most important, the most difficult stage they can't help with, that's when you're really just the face to face conversation between two human beings, trying to understand if there's a fit.
但最重要的是让你尽快进入那个阶段，而这正是Indeed的作用。
But the most important thing is to get you there as quickly as possible, and that's that's what Indeed does.
Indeed明白当你发展自己业务时，每一分钱都很重要。
Indeed knows when you're growing your own business, every dollar counts.
因此在Indeed平台，你只需为符合职位要求的高质量申请付费。
That's why with Indeed, you only pay for quality applications that match your job requirements.
立即访问indeed.com/lex开始招聘。
Visit indeed.com/lex to start hiring now.
网址是indeed.com/lex。
That's indeed.com/lex.
条款与条件适用。
Terms and conditions apply.
本期节目还由我们的老朋友InsideTracker赞助播出。
This show, finally, is also brought to you by InsideTracker, our old friends at InsideTracker.
这些老朋友代表着遥远的未来，迈向那个由我们自身身体数据驱动一切的奇妙未来的重要一步。
Old friends that represent the distant future, a big step towards the amazing future when everything we do is based on data that comes from our own body.
InsideTracker通过血液检测追踪生物数据，
So InsideTracker tracks biological data from blood tests.
提供各类信息，并运用机器学习算法分析血液数据、DNA数据和健身追踪数据，为您推荐饮食和生活方式方案。正如我所说，未来将会有各种高分辨率、高频次的个性化推荐。
They give you all kinds of information, then they use machine learning algorithms on the blood data, DNA data, and and the fitness tracker data to give you recommendations for diet, for lifestyle, and, you know, like I said, in the future, there's going to be all kinds of really high resolution, high bandwidth recommendation.
首先，来自你身体的数据量将会越来越庞大，
First of all, the data is gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger coming from your own body.
其次，你将能获得各种类型的建议。
And second of all, you're going to be able to have all kinds of recommendations.
最重要的是高分辨率的生活方式和行为改变建议，这是幸福生活的基石。
First of high resolution recommendations and lifestyle changes, which is the backbone of a happy life.
对吧？
Right?
饮食、生活方式、调整好睡眠、保持运动，所有这些，通过数据驱动的方式理清这团乱麻，这非常强大。
Diet, lifestyle, just getting your sleep right, getting your exercise, all of that, figuring that whole mess out in a data driven way, that's super powerful.
我对这个功能感到兴奋。
I'm excited for that feature.
限时优惠，请访问insidetracker.com/lex获取特别折扣。
Get special savings for a limited time when you go to insidetracker.com/lex.
这里是Lex Friedman的播客节目。
This is a Lex Friedman podcast.
如需支持，请查看简介中的赞助商信息。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请Paul Conti。
And now, dear friends, here's Paul Conti.
你认为精神病学本质上是对人类心智的研究，而不仅仅是一套治疗心理疾病的方法吗？
Do you see psychiatry as fundamentally a study of the human mind and not just a set of tools for treating psychological maladies?
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
我认为精神病学是我们理解人类本质的最佳途径。
I think psychiatry is our best way to understand who we are as people.
我的意思是，它研究我们的生物学基础。
I mean, it looks at our biology.
你知道，我们的大脑是如何运作的？
You know, how does our brain work?
它是如何将各个部分相互连接的？
How does how does it connect the parts with one another?
其中的化学反应又是如何进行的？
How does the chemistry in it work?
这些都是构成我们存在的最基础层面，最终表现为心理现象。
It's the very foundational aspects of who we are, and then it manifests as psychology.
我们在思考什么？
What do we think?
我们感受如何？
What do we feel?
我们的追求是什么？
What are our strivings?
我们的恐惧是什么？
What are our fears?
所以，是的，我认为精神病学提供了我们可以用来互相帮助的工具，但这些工具源自它作为一门理解学科的属性。
So, yeah, I think psychiatry provides tools that we can use to to help each other, but those tools come through it being a discipline of understanding.
所以每当你接触一位病人，探索一个心灵时，你是否都在获取对人类思维更深刻的理解？
So with every patient you see, with every mind you explore, are you picking up a deeper understanding of the human mind?
我想我正在努力做到这一点。
I think I'm trying to.
我是说，我认为我们应该学会从所做的每件事中都能有所收获，你知道的，每次互动在某种程度上都能带来些微小的启示。
I mean, I think we should learn we should be able to take something away from everything we do, you know, every interaction to some small degree.
每次对话，不一定是和病人，哪怕只是在星巴克买杯咖啡时。
Every conversation, it doesn't have to be a patient, just anywhere at Starbucks getting a coffee.
你可以从那些微小经历中学到东西。
You can learn something from that little experience.
是的。
Yeah.
即便只是强化温和的善意、感恩之心以及得体的人际互动，这种强化本身——即便我们没有带走所谓的记忆或教训——也能巩固我们选择成为的样子。
Even if you just reinforce gentle kindness and gratitude and and decent human interaction, there's a reinforcement of that that even if we don't take away memories or lessons, so to speak, we can reinforce who we choose to be.
所以通过这些互动也能理解自我，不仅是广义上哲学层面的人类心智，更是理解我们自己的思维，反思我们心智的运作方式。
So understanding ourselves from those interactions too, not just the general sort of philosophical human mind, but understanding our own mind, introspect on how our own mind works.
没错。
Yeah.
我们对他人或他物的一切认知都经由这里产生。
Everything we understand about anyone or anything else is coming through here.
对吧？
Right?
我们正在理解他人。
We're understanding others.
我们也在理解自己。
We're we're also understanding ourselves.
一切都经由我们过滤。
It's all feeding through us.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
但抽离出来观察自己的思维并理解它只是一台机器，这很棘手。
But it's a tricky thing to step away and look at your own mind and understand that it's just a machine.
你可以某种程度上控制这台机器处理外部环境的方式，以及它如何将感知转化为实际情绪的方式。
You can kinda control the way the machine processes the external environment and the way that machine converts the things it perceives into actual emotions, like how it interprets the things it perceives.
你只需抽身而出，这样分析它，然后就能控制它。
You just sort of step away and analyze it in that way, and then you can control it.
你可以给机器上油，控制它如何解读感知以产生积极情绪，就像...
You can you can oil the machine, you can control how it actually interprets the perceptions in order to generate positive emotions and be like a a what is it?
就像，为机器中的齿轮做维护的机械师。
Like, mechanic for the for the gears in the machine.
我是说，我认为在某种程度上是这样，但区别在于，至少据我理解，我认为机器并非不可理解的。
I mean, I think to some degree to some degree, but the the difference, I think, at least as I understand, I think of machines as not being inscrutable.
对吧？
Right?
只要有足够的研究，投入足够的智慧，我们就能理解任何我们试图弄清楚的事物。
That that if there's enough study, there's enough acumen applied that we can understand whatever it is we're trying to to figure out.
然而，理解自己的一部分是认识到有些东西是我们无法理解的。
Whereas, part of understanding ourselves is understanding that there are things we can't understand.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为这一点对健康和幸福至关重要，同时也对保持足够的谦逊，理解他人与我们不同，以及我们自己有时也会与以往不同。
And I think that's that's indispensably important, I think, to health and happiness, and and also to having enough humility to see how people can be different from us, how we can be different from ourselves at times.
所以，认识到我们有很多不知道的事情，并对这些未知有所了解，我认为是这个过程中不可或缺的部分，这与机器不同。
So knowing that we don't know a lot and having some idea of what that might be, I think, is an indispensable part of the process, which I think is different from machines, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
你基本上是说机器通常因为是根据设计制造的，所以通常会更简单，因此可以理解。
The machines you're basically saying machines generally, because they're engineered from a design, they're usually going to be simpler, therefore understandable.
而你认为人类思维的复杂性，至少从我们的角度来看，几乎是无限的。
And you're saying the complexity of the human mind is, at least from our perspective, nearly infinite.
这是一种元现象吗？
Is there a metaphenomena?
有时被描述为某种涌现层次，即在更高的复杂性层次上，会出现无法从较低层次预测的新颖特性。
What sometimes gets described as sort of levels of emergence where at increasing levels of complexity, you have novelty evolved that you that you can't predict from from lower levels of complexity.
比如，原子到分子就是一个例子。
Like, for example, atoms to molecules, you know, it's just one example.
我认为神经元到意识，意识到文化也是如此。
I think neurons to consciousness, consciousness to culture.
对吧？
Right?
存在一种元现象，它们与底层现象分离，并因此增添了一个全新的新颖性维度。
That there are metaphenomena that separate from the phenomenon from the phenomena underneath of them, and and, therefore, by adding an entire aspect of novelty.
所以我认为，我们每个人都无比迷人，正是因为这些涌现层次的新颖性难以捉摸——你无法从一个层级预测下一个层级，也无法完全理解——正是这些造就了我们，不仅是人类，我认为所有有知觉的生物都是如此。
So I I I think we are I mean, I really think this is true that we are all infinitely fascinating because these levels of emergence of novelty that are inscrutable because you can't predict from one level to the next or understand fully are what make us and not just us, but I think sentient creatures.
对吧？
Right?
人类。
Human beings.
对吧？
Right?
但有知觉的生物远比无知觉的生物有趣得多，这种差异无法估量。
But sentient creatures inestimably more interesting than than creatures that aren't sentient.
而且...我不知道。
And and I don't know.
我认为当我们思考机器学习和人工智能时，我们试图创造的正是那些我们现在还无法完全理解的涌现层级，这既令人兴奋，或许也有些可怕。
I think when when when we think about machine learning and artificial intelligence, I think it's that that we're trying to create, levels of emergence that now we don't fully understand anymore, which I guess is both exciting and maybe scary too.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以从原子的物理、量子力学开始，进入化学，再进入生物学。
So you started the physics of atoms, quantum mechanics, go into chemistry, go into biology.
从生物学中，你有了功能性现象，特别是在人类大脑中显现的那些，然后多个大脑通过意识和智能连接在一起，就创造了文明。
From the biology, you have the functional phenomena, especially as manifested in the in the human brain, and then multiple brains connecting together through consciousness and intelligence creates civilizations.
这相当有趣。
It's pretty interesting.
你觉得魔法在哪里，蛋糕的哪一层？
Where do you think the magic is, and which layer of the cake?
每一层都是。
Every layer.
因为每次你从一个事物涌现到另一个事物时，我都视之为一种类比，就像辩证法的概念，对吧，我想是黑格尔，对吧，他他他意识到，嘿。
Because every time you emerge from one thing to another I see it as an analog, like, the concept of the dialectic, right, where I think it was Hegel, right, who who who realized, hey.
当你有了，比如，事物A和事物B，它们很复杂，当它们结合在一起时，你知道，你不会得到A和B的混合体。
When you when you have, like, thing a and thing b, and they're complicated and they come together, you know, you don't get a hybrid of a and b.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，最终你会得到全新的、前所未有的事物。
You know, you you end up getting something that's new, that's novel.
我认为这在一定程度上描述了涌现现象的本质，但每次涌现都会带来一个全新的、充满无限可能性的宇宙，这些可能性在涌现之前是不存在的。
And and I think that describes to some degree that like, what emergence is, except there's there's a whole new and it's it's universe of novelty, right, that that comes at each layer of emergence that allows infinite possibilities that weren't possible before.
我想这就是为什么我们如此复杂——我们的功能性神经科学（也就是心理学），我们思考自我、他人以及进行反思的能力，都是建立在如此多层次的涌现之上的。
And I think that's why we're so complicated that we're our functional neuroscience, right, which I think is psychology, right, our ability to think about ourselves, about others to be reflective, is sitting on top of so many layers of emergence.
就像站在巨人肩膀上的理念——我们每个人的意识都站在由无数层次涌现和新奇性构成的巨人肩膀上，其中许多层次我们至今仍不理解。
Like, the idea of standing on the shoulders of giants that we're you know, each of us, our consciousness is standing on the shoulder of a giant of many, many, many levels of emergence, of novelty, so many of which we don't understand.
我的意思是，这包括亚原子粒子，以及量子物理学所涵盖的一切。
I mean, that's subatomic particles, everything that that quantum physics means.
你知道，时间在什么时候变得重要？
You know, when when does time become important?
对吧？
Right?
与那些发生在时间和空间之外的事物相反。
As opposed to things happening outside of time and outside of space.
我们何时会融入单一的时间视角？
When do we slot into one temporal perspective?
然后复杂性，我认为，只会不断增长、增长再增长。
And then the complexity just, I think, grows and grows and grows.
是啊。
Yeah.
你用的有趣词汇是'新颖性'。
The interesting word you use is novelty.
如果这是真的，真的让我大开眼界。
If true, this really blows my mind.
无论是浅层还是深层意义上，这都是真实的。
In some either shallow or deep sense, it is true.
我正在努力想明白这一点。
I'm trying to figure that out.
我不知道你是否了解细胞自动机。
I don't know if you know something about a cellular automata.
这是一种非常简单的数学对象，其中每个小细胞都遵循特定规则，并在局部范围内相互作用。
It's this very simple mathematical objects where you have rules that govern each individual little cell, and they interact locally.
你可以理解这些单个细胞的简单运作方式，但当你模糊地放大视角时，又会增加一层抽象，这些元对象开始显现功能。
And that, you know, you understand the very simple operation of those individual cells, but add another layer of abstraction when you just kinda zoom out with blurry vision, these meta objects starts appearing that function.
你可以用它构建一台图灵机。
You could build a Turing machine with it.
在这种看似简单的对象基础上，你可以构建任意复杂度的计算结构。
You can build arbitrary complexity of of compute of of computation on top of this kinda very simple object.
是的。
Yes.
一个有趣的问题是：这种特性是否一直存在？
It's an interesting question whether that was always there.
原子在某种程度上懂得爱。
The atoms somehow know about love.
对吧？
Right?
比如，关于意识。
Like, about consciousness.
没错。
Right.
关于战争、暴力、邪恶、仇恨等等。
About war and violence and evil and hate and all that.
这些可能性已经蕴含在原子之中，这种能力早已存在于原子层面。
That's already laid in in the the possibility of that, the capacity for that is already in the atoms.
它已经存在于物理法则中。
It's already in the physics.
它已经存在于所有构建起来的化学过程中。
It's already in the in in all the different chemistry that builds up.
就连生命的起源，至今仍是个谜。
And it's like, even the origin of life, still a mystery.
这是已知的。
That's that's known.
这是物理学的一部分。
That's in the physics.
好吧。
Okay.
这是宇宙已知的基本背景物理学。
That's known to the universe, the basic background physics in the universe.
我不确定，因为如果不是这样，那它是从何而来的？
I don't if because if this that's not the case, it's like, where does that come from?
那种魔力在哪里？
Where's that magic?
这个蛋糕可能有多少层？
And how many layers can the cake possibly have?
我们还要继续建造多少层？
How many are we gonna keep building?
如果这一切都是真的，如果我们不断通过这种抽象过程给蛋糕添加层次，加入新奇事物，那么天花板在哪里？
If it's all if there's if we're constantly through this process of abstraction of adding a layer to the cake, adding novel things, like, where's the ceiling?
随着我们向宇宙扩张，如果我们真能做到这一点，我们会继续建造更神奇复杂的物体吗？
As we expand out into the cosmos, if we successfully can do that, are we gonna keep building, like, more miraculous complex objects?
而大脑就像是中间层次的东西。
And then the brain is just like a middle layer thing.
我们往往认为自己确实是宇宙中可能性的特殊体现，但也许我们只是某个更宏大存在的基本微小构件。
We we tend to think of ourselves as truly truly special manifestations of what's possible in the universe, but maybe we're just like the basic, like, tiny building block of something much much much bigger.
我们正处于成为一座巨大建筑中一块砖石的早期阶段。
We're in the early days of being a brick in a very large building.
确实如此。
Sure.
我认为这完全有可能。
I think that's entirely possible.
我想，可以说我们构建的唯一涌现之物就是文化。
I mean, I I think the only emergent thing, so to speak, that that we build is culture.
对吧？
Right?
我们群体的聚合。
The the aggregation of us.
所以你有完全独特的个体人类思维。
So you have individual human minds, which are entirely unique.
我是说，甚至你和我对时间的感知都不同。
I mean, even the the fact that time is different for you and me.
对吧？
Right?
可能相差皮秒级别。
It may be by picoseconds.
对吧？
Right?
但我们能互动，因为我们对时间的感知足够平行。
But we can engage because our our our perceptions of time are parallel enough.
它们足够接近，对吧，这样我们才能共享同一个现实。
They're close enough, right, that we can share a reality.
对吧？
Right?
但我们每个人都生活在不同的时间维度里。
But we're all living in a different dimension of time.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，我们都知道这一点。
I mean, we know that.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们在这方面是独特的，然后我们这些独特的个体，就像细胞一样，对吧，开始创造的不仅仅是一个东西，不仅仅是文化，而是在我们个性之上的文化。
So we're we're unique in that way, and then the unique individuals that we are, just like the cells, right, start to create not just one thing, not just a culture, but culture on top of our individuality.
对吧？
Right?
这就是我们的独特性，我们在时间、经验和意识维度上的独特性。
There are our uniqueness, our even dimensional uniqueness of of time and experience and and consciousness.
因此我们在自身之上创造了文化，但文化之外可能还有什么呢？以及那些与我们不同的存在——无论是在基础层面，比如量子物理、化学或生物学，还是完全不同的、尚未被构想的事物——我认为这是一个极其宏大的问题。
So we create cultures on top of us, but what could be beyond culture, right, and and what is different from us either on underlying levels, you know, like quantum physics or chemistry or biology, or entirely different and unconceived, I think, it's an immense question.
我认为这个问题应该让我们保持谦卑。
I think it's one that should create humility in us.
对吧？
Right?
看看有多少是我们所不知道的，再看看我们对自己、对我们的资源、对人类生命有多么轻率。
That look look how much we don't know, and then how reckless we are with ourselves, with our resources, with with human life.
而且我认为在这里必须指出——想想熵是如何支配我们周围的宇宙的。
And and I think there, it's it's important to say, mean, think about how entropy rules the universe around us.
我的意思是，我们被筛选了多少次？
I mean, how over selected are we?
不仅仅是成百上千次，而是需要经历多少次百万级别的选择分支点，才能进入一个反熵的漩涡池——在那里你才能开始创造——我想这就是为什么你会说‘好吧’
How many not just hundreds or thousands of times, but how many millions of times does there have to be a selection branch point before we get into a sort of eddy pool of counterentropy, right, where you can begin to create, right, which which I think is why you say, okay.
原子懂得爱吗？
The do the atoms know about love?
对吧？
Right?
任何创造行为的存在，都意味着存在这种对抗熵增的过度选择，从而能够构建出更复杂的、最终是新颖的事物。
The fact that anything is being created, right, means there's this over selection for counter entropy where there can be a building of greater complexity of, ultimately, of novelty.
而我们很少思考这点，很少思考我们与宇宙中其他可能发生这种情况的时空位置相距多远——也许用光年计——也不思考这意味着什么。
And we don't often think about that, of of how far removed we are, maybe light years, so to speak, from any other location temporally, physically in the universe where this could happen, and we don't think about what does that mean.
你所说的爱，一切事物，都是反熵的存在。
Everything that you said, love, everything is counter entropy.
这与宇宙的基本物理法则背道而驰。
It goes against the way the basic physics of the universe.
所以或许原子其实非常厌恶我们的行为。
So maybe actually the atoms really don't like what we're doing.
它们想要我们停止。
They they want us to stop.
它们一直在竭力阻止我们。
They've been trying really hard to stop.
尽管如此，我们却莫名其妙地开启了这整个细菌演化过程，持续了约十亿年，直至今日。
And despite that, we somehow started this whole bacteria thing for for, like, a billion years, and now we're here.
其实我的看法恰恰相反。
I actually think of it kind of the other way.
我不认为无目的性本身有任何意义。
I don't think there's any purpose to purposelessness.
对吧？
Right?
那么如果不存在对创造力的驱动力，为何会有任何事物存在于此？
So so why would anything be here if we if the drive weren't towards creativity?
对吗？
Right?
如果不存在这种驱动力，那些亚原子粒子就不会从虚无中闪现又消失——就像我们认为在广袤无垠的宇宙虚空中持续发生的那样。
If if the drive weren't towards those subatomic particles not being nothingness that blips in and out of existence, right, like we think is going on in empty space, you know, for light years upon light years.
对吧？
Right?
但是否存在一种设计，无论是自然的还是刻意的，为了一种图式，一种允许极其罕见但并非不存在的反熵池存在的场景，在这里美好可以发生，创造力可以涌现，最终某些事物能够成长，某些新奇能够出现。
But is is there a design, either natural or intentional, to for a schema, right, a scenario that allows for the incredibly rare but not nonexistent Eddie pool of counter entropy where good can happen, right, where creativity can happen, where ultimately something can grow, something novel can happen.
在浩瀚的太空中不存在新奇，尽管那里并非空无一物。
There's no novelty in the vastness of space even though there's not nothing there.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这里存在新奇，因为我认为当我们处于反熵之地时，涌现的层级会堆叠得非常高，这甚至能引发关于善恶的思考。
There's novelty here because I think the the layers of of emergence start stacking very, very, very high when we're in the a place of counter entropy, which then could provide even thoughts about, like, good and evil.
对吧？
Right?
那种创造即保存是善的理念。
The idea that that creating that preserving is good.
对吧？
Right?
这是我们赖以发展的基础。
It's what we build upon.
这就是我们如何抵达逆熵涡流的方法。
It's how we get to the eddy pool of counterentropy.
对吗？
Right?
那么破坏就不是好事。
So then destruction is not good.
侵略与破坏能带来什么好处？
What what good comes of aggression and destruction?
对吧？
Right?
除非是在保护的情况下，或者我们能想到一些边缘案例，但通常来说。
You know, unless we're protecting or we can think of of outline cases, but just think in general concepts.
对吗？
Right?
比如，破坏就是毁灭。
Like, destruction destroys.
它让我们走向熵增状态，走向虚无；而善良、共性、协作、滋养则带来新生。
It brings us towards a state of entropy, towards a state of nothingness, whereas goodness, commonality, collaboration, right, nurturing, right, brings novelty.
它为宇宙带来新的存在，而我们往往没有意识到这点。
It brings new existence into the universe, and I think we don't we don't think about that.
我们身处如此浩瀚的体系中，建立在无数层次之上，这让我们变得轻率，甚至漠视生命——包括自己的生命。
We're we're in the middle of something so vast and built on top of so many layers, and I think it leads us to be cavalier, you know, with with human life, including often our own.
所以你认为宇宙存在某种潜在的创造力，甚至可能包含某种内在的道德准则，创造优于毁灭？
So you think this there's a underlying creative force to the universe that that might even have a kind of built in morality to it, where creating is better than destroying.
然后这种力量以某种方式映射到我们的社会，我们试图理解善恶在其中的实际含义。
And then that somehow maps on onto our society where we kind of try to figure out what that actually means in terms of good and evil.
所以确实存在某种类似的东西。
So there that's some something is there like that.
但这必须是非常美好的存在。
But it's like but it has to be it's, like, so nice.
它如此完美，正因其稀有。
It's so perfect because it's rare.
它足够稀有，我们才拥有自己的空间。
It's sufficiently rare where we have our own space.
就像，你可以关上门，除非我需要独处，就像我们人类文明需要专注于自己的事务。
Like, you can, like, close the door unless, like, I need to be alone right now as our human civilization to work on my thing.
因此它足够稀有，没有其他外星文明会不断来敲门、毁灭我们，但它依然存在。
So it's sufficiently rare that there's not other alien civilizations that are just, like, constantly knocking on our door, destroying us, but it still exists.
这很奇怪。
That's weird.
对吧。
Right.
没错。
Right.
这概率简直低得不可思议。
It's so fantastically improbable Yeah.
我认为我们应该对此保持极大的敬意。
That I think we should be very respectful of it.
而且我记得你说过存在一种珍视创造力的创造性力量。
And I think you said there's a creative force that values creativity.
对吧？
Right?
这个嘛，当然。
This will be well, sure.
如果它是一种创造性力量，那么它的存在及其创造能力源自熵之外的事物。
If it's a creative force, right, it its existence its ability to exist and to create comes from something other than entropy.
对吧？
Right?
某种不同于极度分散导致虚无的存在。
Something other than so much dispersion that there's nothingness.
对吧？
Right?
因此，这种创造力会珍视事物的神圣性。
So so the creative force will value the sanctity of things.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，就是保持事物的完整性，不去破坏它们。
You know, keeping things together, not destroying things.
对吗？
Right?
构建新奇事物，知识的新奇，感知的新奇。
Building novelty, novelty of knowledge, novelty of sentience.
我的意思是，这符合我们并非虚无的观点——这种虚无是极不可能的，而且我们正站在这些层层涌现的复杂结构之上。
I mean, it it fits with the idea that we're not nothing, that that's incredibly improbable, and that there are these many, many layers of emergence that we're standing upon.
我认为这告诉我们，忽视这些对我们自身并无益处。
And I think it tells us something that we're not doing ourselves a service to ignore.
对吧？
Right?
这不仅仅是跳跃到说'哦，一切都有宗教答案'这么简单。
It's not just a jump to saying, oh, there's a religious answer to everything.
根本不是这样。
It's just no.
这是在说科学也不是神。
It's saying science isn't a god either.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果我们把科学视为工具而非终点本身，科学在告诉我们什么？
So if we if we if we think of science as a tool and not as an endpoint in and of itself, what is the science telling us?
就像我记得刚进医学院时，这确实是事实。
Like, I remember showing up at medical school, and it really is true.
我是说，我对人体几乎一无所知。
I mean, I knew so little about the human body.
我之前只在医院探望过病人。
I'd only been in hospitals to visit people.
我确实上过医学预科课程，但都是在中断学业后集中突击学习的，当时我还在商界工作。
I'd taken pre med classes, but sort of intensely at once after I didn't take any, and I was working in business.
我几乎一无所知，而且现在回想起来，我那时天真地以为自己会学到海量知识。
I I knew next to nothing, and and I had this idea that was so naive in retrospect that I was going to learn so much.
对吧？
Right?
我本打算解答这些问题，因为我一直在想：人体内到底在发生什么？
I was going to answer these questions because I was going, what's going on in the body?
这些器官有什么功能？
What are these organs doing?
这些细胞是什么？
What are these cells?
而我最终发现的是，还有更多令人惊叹、神秘莫测甚至看似不可能的事物，比如细胞如何运作这种基础机制。
And what I learned was there was so much more that was amazing and mysterious and seemingly impossible, like even how a cell functions.
对吧？
Right?
比如，细胞内部到底发生了什么？
Like, what is going on inside of a cell?
运输机制、能量功能和扩散功能，然后你可以深入到更微观的层面。但当你回过头来问，这些细胞是如何组成肾脏的？
The transport mechanisms and energy functions and diffusion functions, and then you can go down to smaller levels than that, But when you come back out and you say, how will those cells make a kidney?
这根本无法解释。
It's it's not explanatory.
你知道吗？
You know?
我记得问过接生我第一个孩子的产科医生。
I remember asking the OB who had delivered my first child.
对吧？
Right?
我当时非常震惊，就问他，你是怎么想的？
I was so amazed, and I asked him, like, what do you think?
比如，你到底知道些什么？
Like, what do you know?
你从事这个工作
You do this.
对吧？
Right?
你亲眼目睹生命的诞生，但他的想法却是一片空白
You you're you're seeing this life created and, you know, and his thought was nothing.
而我却充满惊叹
Where I just marvel.
你知道吗？
You know?
我...我是说，虽然我从事这个工作，但我依然对此感到惊叹。
I I mean, I get to do this, but I just marvel at it.
而且我认为我们对自身了解得越多，就会越发充满敬意地感到惊叹。
And I think the more we know about us, the more we respectfully marvel.
我们也理应如此。
And we should do that.
我们应该主动对每一个层面、每一个涌现新奇之处的维度都心怀敬畏。
We should proactively marvel at every aspect, at every layer that where the novelty emerges.
是的。
Yes.
我们就不会轻易说出‘嘿’这样的话。
We'd be a lot less likely to say, hey.
我不会因为某些原因就不喜欢你，无论是什么原因。
I don't like you because of something, whatever it is.
你知道的，无论是种族、宗教、文化、性取向、性别认同，还是其他什么。
You know, race, religion, culture, sexuality, gender identity, whatever it is.
明白吗？
You know?
或者说我想要拥有你没有的权利。
Or I wanna say, I want rights that you don't have.
对吧？
Right?
或者我想要你所拥有的。
Or I want what you have.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，这种情况太多了，我理解这是由匮乏感、人类的不安全感、嫉妒等驱动的，我认为这些可能将我们引向毁灭。
I mean, there's so much of this, and I understand it's driven by scarcity and by human insecurity and envy and all of these things that I that I think could drive us towards destruction.
但所有这些鲁莽行为都源于缺乏你所说的那种初始的欣赏与尊重，那种令人惊叹的态度。
But all of that recklessness comes from not having this initial appreciation and respect that you're referring to and just marveling at.
就像，哇。
Like, wow.
好吧。
Okay.
我们在这里。
We're here.
这太神奇了。
That's amazing.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
让我们从这一点开始。
Let's start with that.
但如果我们惊叹于这整个事物——人类的事业、人类的处境、所有可能存在的人类多样性，那么你如何看待某些人对世界施加恶行这一事实？
But if we marvel at this whole thing, the human project, the human condition, the all the different kinds of human beings that are possible, what do you then make of that some humans do evil onto the world?
首先，所有人都有作恶的潜力吗？
First of all, are all human beings capable of evil?
如果我们现在正处在惊叹的过程中，已经积累了一些动力...是的。
If if we're in the process, now we've got a little bit of momentum in terms of marveling Yeah.
就像蛋糕的层层结构。
The layers of the cake.
我们是否也该惊叹于我们每个人内心潜藏的恶之能力？
Should we also marvel at the capacity for evil in all of us?
是的。
Yeah.
这种能力确实存在吗？
Is that capacity there?
我相信确实如此。
I believe that it is.
是的。
Yes.
那么我们对邪恶心理学的理解是什么？
So what do we understand about the psychology of evil?
这种心理在人类心智中源自何处？
Where where does that originate in the human mind?
它存在于神经生物学中吗？
Is it there in the neurobiology?
它存在于环境中吗？
Is it there in the environment?
还是源于某种教养方式？
Any upbringing?
我能先澄清一下吗？
Can I clarify first?
我认为，恶的潜能确实存在于我们每个人身上。
I think the capacity for evil, I do believe, is in all of us.
实施恶行与遵循某种预设的、发展成熟的邪恶计划是有区别的。
There's a difference between enacting evil and and a sort of preset, followed, developed plan of evil.
对吧？
Right?
我不认为我们所有人都能做出那些犯下最严重恶行之人所做的事。
I don't believe that all of us are capable of doing what the people who perpetrate the most evil do.
对吗？
Right?
但我确实相信我们有能力实施恶行。
But I do believe that we're capable of of perpetrating evil.
是不是？
Right?
而一个想法可能是，我们内心存在着某些驱动力。
And the the thought one thought would be that there are drives in us.
我是说，我们内心确实似乎存在着驱动力——求生的驱动力、满足的驱动力、某种程度上追求快乐的驱动力，而这可能变得非常复杂，因为内心的快乐可能只是痛苦的缓解。
I mean, there certainly seem to be drives in us towards survival, towards gratification, in some ways towards pleasure, and that can get very complicated because pleasure inside can be relief of distress.
所以如果我对自己感到非常糟糕，而通过让你感觉更糟能让我自己感觉好一点，对吧？这在很多人身上都有体现，这是否是一种间接获取快乐的方式？
So if I feel very badly about myself, and I can feel a little better about myself by making you feel worse about yourself, right, which that plays out in a lot of human beings, is is that an indirect way of bringing pleasure?
对吧？
Right?
因此我们内心的活动变得非常复杂，有时作恶可能是由于误解、愤怒或冲动。
So it it gets very complicated what's going on inside of us, and sometimes the perpetration of evil things can be through misunderstandings, anger, impulsivity.
我是说，我们内心可能存在着这些东西，而其他时候，可能还存在着通过不健康心理视角产生的其他因素。
I mean, there are things that we can that we can have in us, and other times, there can be there can be other things going on which are through the lens of unhealthy human psychology.
例如嫉妒心理，我认为这驱动了大部分有预谋的恶行。
So for example, the psychology of envy, which I think drives the lion's share of the orchestrated evil.
对吧？
Right?
冲动性、反射性的恶行与高度有组织的恶行之间存在差异，我认为后者是由嫉妒驱动的。
There's a difference between impulsive, reflexive evil and highly orchestrated evil, which I think is driven by envy.
高度精心策划的邪恶
Highly orchestrated evil.
我们是在谈论像极权主义这样的社会规模吗？
Are we talking about a scale societies like totalitarianism?
如果我们想到像希特勒这样的人，嗯。
So if we're thinking about about somebody like Hitler Mhmm.
所以从规模和邪恶的精心策划来看，嫉妒是驱动力。
So as as scale, orchestration of evil, envy driving that.
所以，我觉得这个思考角度非常有趣。
So, I mean, that's really interesting to to think about.
我很想了解更多关于这方面的内容。
I'd I'd love to hear more about it.
其中可能存在一些相互对立的心理力量。
So some of it there there might be some psychological forces that are in tension with each other.
就拿希特勒这样的人来说，很难知道他内心的真实想法，但通过研究独裁者的思想史可以推测，他可能认为自己不仅在为自己谋利，也在为他认为有价值的人民谋福祉。
So one is if you look at somebody like Hitler, it's difficult to know what was going on in his mind, but it's possible to imagine if you just look at dictators' thought history that he thought he was doing good, not just for himself, but for the people he believed have value.
因此，实现我们所谓的邪恶的一种方式是通过贬低某些人群。
So one way you can have what you can achieve what we consider as evil is by devaluing some group of people.
这可能是针对所有人群的，所以可能带有某种自恋式的观念，即你根本不在乎其他人类。
And that could be all group of people, so it could have sort of a narcissistic type of idea that you basically don't care about other human beings.
这是第一种情况。
That's one.
嫉妒则不同。
Envy is different.
我是说，也许它们可以共同作用。嗯。
I mean, maybe they can collaborate together Mhmm.
或者就像你提到的，你可能真的会以伤害他人为乐。
Or even, like you mentioned, you can actually enjoy doing bad to others.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这几乎又有所不同，因为如果纯粹是自恋，你漠不关心他人的感受，那么你就可以做出冷酷算计的军事或经济决策，根本不在乎这里或那里死了一百万人。
That's almost like different because if if all it is is like narcissism, you disregard you don't care what how others feel, then you can just have make cold, calculated military, almost economic decisions, and you don't care if a million people die here or there.
但如果你确实享受其中的某些方面，或者存在某种怨恨情绪在推动，那就不仅仅是冷酷的计算了。
But if you actually enjoy some aspect of that, or there is, like, a resentment that fuels it, it's not just cold calculation.
这更像是被某种个人或文化上的怨恨所驱动。
It's, like, fueled by some kind of personal or cultural resentment.
你认为这一切都是由那种情绪驱动的吗？
Do you think it's all fueled by that?
你这么认为吗？
You think so?
我认为这一切都是由那种情绪驱动的。
I think it's all fueled by that.
我认为希特勒自认为在做正确的事。
I think the idea that that Hitler thought he was doing good.
对吧？
Right?
这种表象如此薄弱，就像飓风中的手帕一样瞬间被吹散。
It is like that is such a thin facade that it flies away like a handkerchief in a hurricane.
对吧？
Right?
那好吧。
That Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
那真是...哇。
That's wow.
太美了。
That's beautiful.
没错。
Yeah.
它是建立在...让我来解释一下。
It's it's built upon, like, it says I'll I'll explain.
逻辑谎言。
Logical lies.
对吧？
Right?
因为人们可以基于似是而非的逻辑构建谎言。
Because people can build lies upon specious logic.
对吧？
Right?
所以这个想法是，好吧。
So the idea that, okay.
我正在做善事，因为我相信这个民族是善良的，而那个是邪恶的。
I am doing good because I believe that this ethnicity of people is good, and this is bad.
现在我要这样做，我要改变世界，这会让世界变得更美好。
And now I'm going to do this, and I'm gonna make the world different, and it's gonna bring better to the world.
现在我正在组建军队，建造集中营。
And now I'm raising armies, and I'm building concentration camps.
我认为，这一切都是为了行善，但我不认为有人会真的这么想。
And I think, like, this is all in the service of good, is I don't I don't think anyone ever thinks that.
对吧？
Right?
或者说他们确实这么想，但那只是因为他们活在表面的假象中。
Or they they think that, but with because they're living in the surface patina.
对吧？
Right?
就像他们不愿让飓风吹走手帕，暴露出这一切其实都是邪恶的。
Like, they they they're not allowing the hurricane in that blows away the handkerchief and says, like, this is all this is all this is all evil.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，你凭什么断定某些群体是好的而另一些是坏的？
I mean, who how do you decide that some group of people is good and some is bad?
而且，是什么让你自以为可以扮演上帝或对世界做出裁决？
And, like, what what is it that you take upon yourself to to to play God or make decisions about the world?
我认为真正的情况是人们并没有那样做。
And I think what really is going on is people are not doing that.
对吧？
Right?
人们只是拼凑出一些理由，来说明为什么这是对的，这是可以接受的。
There's something cobbled together to say, like, why this is right, and this is okay.
对吧？
Right?
甚至认为这是好的。
And this is even good.
对吧？
Right?
但这全都是谎言。
But it is all a lie.
对吧？
Right?
这是一个谎言，它粉饰了我所认为的事实，我认为正在发生的是人内心嫉妒的满足。
It's a lie that's adorning the the what I believe is the fact, I believe, that what's going on is the gratification of envy inside of the person.
无论是有人说‘哦，我觉得这很好，即使死一百万人也没关系’，还是‘我会因为一百万人死去而高兴’，我认为本质相同。
Whether someone says, oh, I think this is good and it's okay if a million people die, or I'm gonna enjoy that a million people die, I think is the same.
我认为这种对精心策划的恶行产生的愉悦和满足感确实存在，而这都源于脆弱与不安。
I think the the enjoyment, the gratification of the orchestrated evil is there, and that it all comes from vulnerability and insecurity.
这一切都源于自我认知的缺失。
It it all comes from deficits in the sense of self.
没错。
Right.
我需要消化一下这个观点。
I'm gonna have to process that.
我迟钝的大脑正在处理这个信息，所以嫉妒是这一切的根源。
My my my my slow penny in PC is processing that, so envy underlies all of it.
嫉妒这一心理学概念。
The psychological concept of envy.
那是什么？
What is that?
我一直在试图揣摩希特勒的心理，我想。
I keep putting myself in the mind of Hitler, I guess.
这与犹太人或者斯拉夫人无关。
That that has nothing to do it doesn't have to do with Jews or Slavic people.
是否与他心中那个模糊的、令他嫉妒的特定对象有关？
Does it have to do with specific amorphous other in his mind that he's envious of?
我认为这完全与他自身有关。
I think it has all to do with him.
完全是他自身的问题。
All to do with him.
他既不热爱与他结盟的人，也不认为他迫害的人比他低劣。
There's not a love of the people with whom he allied or even a sense of the people who he persecuted were worse than him.
这一切都源于他内心的投射——一种强烈的自卑感，以及对自己被视为低等之人的愤怒。嗯。
It's all projections out of what was going on inside of him, which was an an intense sense of inadequacy, a rage at being someone he perceived as lesser Mhmm.
比。
Than.
这就是区别所在——我们可以用不同方式定义词语，即使在心理学领域也是如此。但假设我们在这里采用嫉妒的定义，将其视为某种良性情绪。
That's the difference between we can define words in different ways even within psychology, but let's say we we take the definition here of jealousy as being sort of benign.
对吧？
Right?
这种想法是：哦，我可能看到你拥有而我没有的东西，然后会想，我也想要那个。
The idea that, oh, I might see something that you have that I don't, and I might think, I'd like that.
也许我会更努力去争取它。
Maybe I'll work harder to get it.
对吗？
Right?
又或许我无法得到它。
Or maybe I can't get it.
可能只是因为你比我年轻。
Maybe it's that you're younger than I am.
他们说，好吧。
They say, okay.
你知道吗？
You know?
好吧。
Okay.
你知道，你有那个而我没有。
You know, you have that and I don't.
我的意思是，我也有其他东西。
I mean, I have other things too.
总之我还好。
I'm okay anyway.
但我可能想要那些东西，但这种嫉妒是非常良性的。
But I might want those things, but it's very benign, the the jealousy.
我希望自己能更年轻些。
I'd like to be younger.
我希望更富有，不管我们这些人怎么想。
I'd like to be richer, whatever it is that we people think.
对吧？
Right?
但这只是个想法，一个可能导致奋斗或接受的想法。
But it's just a thought, and it's a thought that can result in strivings or acceptance.
对吧？
Right?
这是非常非常不同的。
It's very, very different.
这与具有破坏性的嫉妒完全不同。
It's completely different than envy, which is destructive.
这个想法是我看到你拥有而我没有的东西。
It's a thought of I see something that you have that I don't have.
对吧？
Right?
与其让我为之努力或接受自己没有的事实，我更想做的反而是把你拉下来，让你降到我的位置，这样我会感觉好受些。
And instead of me working for it or accepting that I don't have it, what I'd like to do then is bring you down, take you down to where I am, and then I'll feel better.
对吧？
Right?
因为从嫉妒的角度来看，一切都是相对的。
Because from the perspective of envy, it is all relative.
那么嫉妒是否是一种——他说完全不同——但嫉妒是否可能是通往怨恨的入门毒品？
So is jealousy a kind of is is it because he said completely different, but is jealousy potentially like a gateway drug to envy?
就像，它是否会像滑坡效应一样？
Like, does it does it like, is it a slippery slope?
我认为不是。
I think no.
我认为嫉妒是人类现象中自然的一部分，我们一生中会经历，看到某些东西时会想，哦，我也想要那个。
I think that jealousy is a natural just part of the human phenomenon that we go through life, and we see, like, oh, I'd like to have that.
我认为这是我们激励机制的一部分。
I think it's it's part of our incentives.
对吧？
Right?
你看，如果我在种地，只有一排庄稼，转头发现你更努力有两排，我也想有两排，这会激励我更努力去争取。
If, you know, if if if I'm farming and I have one row of crops and I look over and I see that you're working harder and you have two, and I'd like to have two, that that can make me work harder to have two.
你不觉得这是个滑坡效应吗？一开始你想更努力，但不断失败，天气糟糕，持续受挫，而对方却越来越成功。
You don't think it's a slippery slope from one to the other to at first, you're like, I'd like to work harder, but then you keep failing and the weather sucks and you keep failing and the other person becomes more successful.
而且他现在还娶了个漂亮新老婆。
Plus, he's got a new hot wife now.
还有台不错的拖拉机。
There's a nice tractor.
整片田地都运作良好，于是你冒出念头：我要偷走这一切，我要杀了他——你不觉得这想法太跳跃了吗？不。
There's a field that's all working, and then you get this idea that you know what, I'm gonna steal all this stuff, I'm gonna murder him, and that you know, don't you think that's just like a leap No.
其实你认为这是同一种现象吗？
Actually think of the same phenomenon?
不觉得？
No?
不。
No.
因为我认为有些特质是人类与生俱来的。
Because because I think there are things that are in us as humans.
对吧？
Right?
所以这些作为人类天生就具备的特质，比如我们能够感受到同情心。
So so the the things that just by being human, like, we can, for example, feel we can feel compassion.
对吧？
Right?
我们能够产生兴趣。
We can feel interest.
对吧？
Right?
我们也会感受到那种良性的嫉妒心。
We can feel jealousy in in that benign sense.
这些都属于人之常情。
Like, it's all part of just being human.
如果我们开始从，嘿，
If we if we start going from, hey.
你的收成比我多，而且，你看上去在很多方面过得比我好，我就要杀了你。
You have more crops than I have, and and, you know, now it seems like you actually have a better life in a lot of ways than I have, I'm gonna kill you.
这可不是良性发展的结果。
That that's not that is not a progression of something benign.
对吧？
Right?
这是...等等，
That is But wait.
等一下，
Wait a minute.
但这不正是人类对同一事物的极端表现吗？
But that is a human leap of the same thing, isn't it?
因为你是在划清界限。
Is because you're drawing a line stuff.
你好像在说，这些是人类的事情，这种日常生活是良性的，但这种良性感觉就像是那个非良性事物的低强度版本。
You're saying like, this is the this human stuff, this regular life, it's benign, but it feels like this benign thing is just a low magnitude thing version of the thing that's not benign.
就像，可能存在着一个灰色地带，在那里它就不再被归类为良性了。
Like, there there's there's probably a gray area where it stops being put.
比如嫉妒，你可以有健康的嫉妒。
Like, jealousy, you can have, like, healthy jealousy.
你也可以有一点不太健康的嫉妒。
You can have a little bit slightly unhealthy.
这个，我想说的是，那首我喜欢的John Lena的歌里描述的嫉妒的家伙。
This this, I think, jealous guy, this John Lena song that I love.
它很美。
It's beautiful.
我是说，关系中存在的嫉妒会让你感觉，你知道的，可能会让你的思绪往各种愚蠢的方向发展。
I mean, there's, like, this jealousy inside relationships can make you feel like, you know, could take your minds in all kinds of silly directions.
这很疯狂，但感觉就像是与恋爱中真正疯狂、有毒的那些行为仅一墙之隔。
It's it's crazy, but, like, it feels like that that's a next door neighbor to, like, being really crazy and toxic and all that kind of stuff inside relationships.
然后那感觉又像是另一个相邻的阶段。
And then that feels like a next door neighbor.
就像一栋公寓楼里的不同单元。
It's like an apartment building.
这种感觉就像是最终会演变成希特勒那种对整个人群的嫉妒与怨恨的邻居关系。
That feels like a next door neighbor that eventually gets to Hitler with the with envy and resentment of an entire population of people.
你说得对。
You're right.
这其中存在因果联系。是的。
That there's a causal Yeah.
可能存在一条因果链。
There can be a causal chain.
对吧？
Right?
就像，如果我不感到嫉妒，也许我就永远不会产生羡慕。
Like, if I'm not feeling jealous, maybe I won't ever feel envious.
对吧？
Right?
所以你能明白，好吧，它某种程度上可以导致...可以打开大门，比如，我到底有多讨厌你拥有我所没有的东西？
So so you can see, okay, so it can kind of lead to it can open gates to, like, how much do I dislike that you have things that I don't have?
对吗？
Right?
所以在这个意义上是的，但我认为这部分非常重要——我认为这里存在一个断层。
So, yes, in that sense, but and I think this is the part that I think is so important that I think there is a disjunction.
对吧？
Right?
这是一种渐近式的转变，从一件事到另一件事，因为我的表达方式很数学化。
It's there's an asymptotic shift, right, from one thing to another because it my language mathematically.
是的。
Yeah.
渐进式跨越。
Asymptotic leap.
对。
Yep.
是的。
Yes.
这是一种表达方式，对吧，完全不同的东西，因为如果我开始想，你知道，我不会试图让事情变得更好。
That that's it's a way to convey, right, something that's entirely different because if I start thinking, you know, I'm not gonna try and make things better.
对吧？
Right?
我反而想伤害你。
I'd like instead to harm you.
这是质的不同。
That's that's qualitatively different.
哦，这几乎就像是，你知道这是什么吗？
Oh, it's almost like, you know what it is?
可能是这样。
It could be.
我不知道你对此有何看法，但这取决于你的动机指向哪个方向。
I don't know what you think about this, but it's in which direction your motivation is pointing.
所以如果在对嫉妒感的回应中，你的某种动机表示，好吧。
So if in the response to the feeling of jealousy, your sort of the motivation says, okay.
我理解这种感受。
I understand this feeling.
我想减少这种感觉。
I wanna do less of it.
我认为这里一定存在一个临界点，超过这个点你实际上会想要更多这种感受。
I think there's there there must be a threshold to which you actually wanna do more of it.
就像，它会变成一个恶性循环。
Like, it it becomes a vicious downward cycle.
这就是嫉妒演变成的样子。
So that's what envy becomes.
就像，最初那种'我要杀了农场主'的感觉逐渐演变成愈演愈烈的执念，你无法入睡，脑海中不断浮现农场主变成恶魔的画面，这本质上是一种朝着负面方向不断恶化的执念。
Like, the first feeling, this idea that I'm gonna kill the farmer turns into, like, more and more and more, and you can't sleep, and you're visualizing the farmer, and he becomes the devil, and, like, you have this very you know, it's it's a it's basically a thing that builds into the negative direction versus Right.
回归稳定状态。
Returns to the stable center.
是的。
Yeah.
现在这个人正在滋养恶念。
Now a person is cultivating evil.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
他们说，嘿。
They're saying, hey.
我们每个人内心都可能埋藏着邪恶的种子。
There there can be seeds of evil in all of us.
让我把那颗种子取出来，掸去灰尘，种下它，培育它。对。
Let me take that seed out, dust it off, plant it, nurture it Yeah.
没错，然后让那颗邪恶的种子生长，这将影响这个人生活的所有其他方面。
Right, and then grow that seed of evil, which will affect all other parts of the person's life.
对吧？
Right?
他们在生活中对他人的行为也会变得不同。
They they won't behave the same towards others in their in their life.
当他们培育邪恶的幻想时，当他们开始在自己内心创造动机和意志去实施邪恶时，他们就会变得不同。
They'll they'll they'll become different as they nurture fantasies of evil, as they begin to create with within inside of themselves themselves the the the motivation and the will, right, to enact evil.
对吧？
Right?
用希特勒来类比的话，我想说的是一个有着糟糕童年的人，不被爱，被教导和告知他一无是处。
The Hitler analogy would say, I think you take someone who had a bad childhood, right, who who, like, was not loved, who who was taught and told that he was less than.
好的。
Okay.
就像那样，我们知道这种情况会发生。
Like that, we know that happens.
我是说，这就是为什么虐待儿童如此邪恶。
I mean, that's why child abuse is so evil.
对吧？
Right?
这是在告诉孩子们最糟糕的错误观念。
It's telling children the the the worst possible wrong lessons.
对吗？
Right?
他们不够好。
They're not good enough.
他们将永远受到伤害。
They'll always be hurt.
你明白吗？
You know?
他们无法保护自己。
They can't keep themselves safe.
他们不配得到安全。
They don't deserve safety.
对吧？
Right?
于是你遇到一个人，他滋养了那颗邪恶的种子——这是一种选择——然后说：我画得不够好，没人欣赏我，我不喜欢自己的长相，我无法融入我想融入的圈子，如此这般不断循环。通过这种痛苦的视角，产生了对自我的憎恶，一种对自我的排斥，但这对自我来说是不可接受的。
So then you take someone who then nurtures that seed of evil, which is a choice, and says, well, I can't paint well enough, and no one appreciates me, and I don't like how I look, and I don't fit in with the people I want to fit in with, and then on and on and and on and on, And there's a hatred of self through that lens of misery, of of just being repulsed by the self, but that's unacceptable to the self.
所以哦，这一定是别人的错。
So oh, it has to be someone else's fault.
对吧？
Right?
这不是我的错。
It's not my fault.
那是谁的错呢？
Whose fault is it?
对吧？
Right?
然后你会看到，邪恶对某些群体的大规模不作为——在这个人心中，这些人该为他的痛苦负责。
And then you see en masse the inaction of evil towards groups of people who who somehow in this person's mind, right, are responsible for his misery.
于是就有了为邪恶辩护的借口，然后各种说辞，比如这对经济有利，这会带来好处，诸如此类。
And there's the justification of evil, and then all the you know, whether it's this will be better for the economy, this will be good, this will be that.
那些都是为邪恶辩护而编造的谎言。
Like, that that's all lies built to justify the evil.
那些都是表面说辞。
Those are surface level narratives.
是的。
Yes.
而嫉妒正是深层的驱动机制，这才是最终目的。
And the envy is the the deep down mechanism that enables And that's the endpoint that's being served.
被供奉的祭品是毁灭本身。
What's being served is destruction.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么它总是带来更多破坏。
Which is why it always brings more destruction.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，有多少次战争是以我们看来邪恶的目的发起的？
I mean, how many times do do wars that were started for purposes that we would look and say, like, that those are evil purposes.
这些战争又带来过多少次好的结果呢？
Like, how many times does good come of that?
即便我们看看现代世界，其结果也是更多的邪恶，更多的破坏。
Even we we look at the modern world, what comes of it is more evil, is more destruction.
希特勒对外的破坏最终反噬自身，你知道的，看看二战后柏林的照片就知道了。
And Hitler's outward destruction eventually came inward, and, you know, you see pictures of what Berlin looked like after the second World War.
对吧？
Right?
这不仅仅是向外施加的破坏，尽管那已经够可怕了。
It wasn't just destruction perpetrated outward as awful as that is.
它是会传染的。
It's it's it's catchy.
对吧？
Right?
就像，在曼哈顿计划时期之前，人们曾经担心。
Like, people used to worry if you you know, before the during the time of the Manhattan Project.
对吧？
Right?
如果你引发这种连锁反应，会不会把整个世界都炸掉？
If you if you start this chain reaction, you know, will you blow the whole world up?
对吧？
Right?
还是说它只会在这颗炸弹内部停止？
Or will it stop within this bomb or not?
而我们看到，邪恶的连锁反应尚未摧毁整个世界，但看看这场灾难是如何蔓延的。
And we see, okay, the the chain reaction of evil hasn't yet blown the whole world up, but look at the look at how the catastrophe spreads.
想想二战中5000万到6000万人的死亡，那确实是一场世界大战。
And you think fifty to 60 million people dead in the second world war would truly was a world war.
全球范围内造成了怎样的破坏？
What destruction was spread around the globe?
而这是一旦连锁反应开始就无法停止的事情。
And that this is something that can't be stopped once the chain reaction starts.
就像，如果希特勒成功了，它就会一直持续下去。
Like, if Hitler was successful, like, it would just keep going.
如果他当时考虑过这个问题的话。
If he had been think about it.
就他个人的心理层面而言。
If On his personal psychological level, I mean.
没错。
Right.
因为如果从破坏的角度思考，成功只会引发更多征服的需求，接着就会出现派系和内斗，最终导致同样的大规模毁灭。
Because if we think from the perspective of destruction, success would have needed led to the need to conquer more, then there's factions and infighting, and then eventually you get the same mass destruction.
对吧？
Right?
而且邪恶的消极行为永远无法满足人们最初追求的目标。
And and never does the inaction of evil satisfy what the person is initially seeking.
比如，人们想要自我感觉良好。
Like, people wanna feel better about themselves.
对吧？
Right?
比如温尼科特，这位英国儿科医生从非常深刻的视角研究儿童和成人心理。
Like, Winnicott, who was a British pediatrician who who wrote about children and adults from very deep perspectives.
他提出了'足够好'的概念。
He he wrote about the idea of good enough.
对吧？
Right?
你可以这样推而广之，我们都希望感觉自己足够好。
And and you can sort of extrapolate that to, we all wanna feel good enough.
不是勉强及格的那种足够好，而是希望感觉自己是个体面的好人，我所做的事有意义，我能对他人产生影响，会有人喜欢我、关心我？
Like, not just limp over the line good enough, but I wanna feel good enough that I'm a decent person in the world and, like, what I do matters, and, you know, I can I can have an impact on people and, you know, people can like me and care about me?
这种简单的需求若得不到满足，加上某些气质因素或历史因素，就可能试图通过嫉妒来填补这种缺失。我认为这往往始于童年时期，那时儿童的大脑和心理极为脆弱，你会看到明显的儿童虐待案例。
It's it's there's a simplicity there that people want that when people don't have, and there's certain other factors, maybe their temperamental factors or historical factors can lead to trying to soothe that deficit, right, through envy, and and I think it starts with with it starts with that, and it often starts in childhood, not always, but it often starts in childhood when when the the child's brain and psychology are so vulnerable, and, you know, you see salient child abuse.
如果你看看希特勒的成长背景，看看斯大林的成长背景，你会发现几乎所有作恶者——无论是连环杀手还是谁。
If you if you look at what was Hitler's background and what was Stalin's background, then I mean, you could you could look at almost anyone who's perpetrated evil, whether they're serial killers or whatever it may be.
大多数人（并非全部）在童年时期都渴望这种肯定。
The the majority, not everyone, but the majority had these lessons in childhood that said, you're not good enough.
你无法保护自己。
You can't keep yourself safe.
没人在乎你。
No one cares about you.
对部分人而言，这种缺失会滋生出嫉妒，而那恶的种子便由此埋下并生长。
And and in a subset of people, that's gonna generate envy and that, you know, that that seed of evil then gets planted and nurtured.
有一架战斗机。
There's a fighter jet.
在我们头顶呼啸而过。
Roars above us.
我们头顶上战斗机的轰鸣声。
The sound of a fighter jet above us.
由指挥者精心安排。
Be good by an orchestrator.
你会很快忘记身处和平之地的舒适感。
You get you quickly forget the comfort of being in a peaceful place.
这是我在乌克兰看到的一点——嘿。
That's one thing I saw in Ukraine is hey.
你很快就能适应这里。
You quickly get comfortable here.
整个回程途中，我一直在想，能回到美国真是太好了。
The the whole trip back, I was thinking, it's so damn good to be in America.
整个旅程，大概花了三天时间才回来。
The whole just the whole, like, it's like a three day trip back.
身为美国人真是太好了。
It's so good to be American.
我们作为一个民族可能对此习以为常，但我确实同意。
We might take that for granted as a population, but I do agree.
所以破坏从未减轻过嫉妒。
So the destruction never alleviates the envy.
没错。
Right.
所有人类都具备嫉妒的能力吗？
Are all humans capable of envy?
我认为答案是肯定的。
I believe the answer is yes.
你是否认为我们内心都有作恶的可能性？
If you think do we all have the possibility of evil in us?
我认为这个问题的答案是肯定的。
I think the answer to that is yes.
但我们有自由意志。
But we have free will.
我们有选择权。
We have choice.
我们可以选择如何处理这种情况，这就是为什么即使某人是反社会者，比如说，也不意味着他们不需要负责。
We we can choose what we do with that, which is why just because someone is a sociopath, you know, for example, it doesn't mean that they're not responsible.
我是说，我们的医学法律体系已经充分证明了这一点，从法律和医学角度来看，如果我们是有责任心的，假设我们是健康的，没有其他方面的不健康因素会影响我们的判断力，那么我们对内心培养或忽视的东西负有责任。
I mean, you know, our our medical legal jurisprudence, right, has has absolutely borne that out, that legally, medically, we think, okay, if we're responsible, presuming we're healthy, we're not unhealthy in other ways that eliminates our ability to to to be circumspect, but that we're responsible for what we do and don't nurture inside of us.
我是说，我们有很多理由可以选择培养愤怒和仇恨。
I mean, there are plenty of things we could decide to nurture anger and hatred about.
你知道，我可以想到各种委屈和困难，无论是别人对我做的事，还是我可以责怪命运，或者对上帝或世界感到愤怒。
You know, I could think of slights, difficulties, whether it's something someone else has done to me, or I could blame fate, or I could be mad at God or the world.
我们都可以做出这些选择，我们要么对这些选择负责，要么对自己内心的东西有所认知。
We can all make those choices, and we're responsible for them or for recognizing things in us.
他们会说，哦，我也有那种倾向，但我不想助长它。
They're like, oh, I, you know, I too have that in me, but I don't wanna nurture that.
我不想培养那种东西，还是我选择去助长和培养它？
I don't wanna foster that, or do I choose to nurture and foster that?
我认为最终，以希特勒这样的邪恶为例，如果他不断获胜，最终地球上将只剩下他一个人。
And I think ultimately, you know, a subject of Hitler as as evil, if if Hitler had kept winning and winning, right, I think ultimately, he would have been the only person on Earth.
对吧？
Right?
我真心相信这一点。
And I really do believe it.
最终，其他所有人、所有事物都会被毁灭，因为那是彻底的破坏。
Ultimately, everyone, everything else would be killed because it's such destruction.
对吧？
Right?
摧毁一切。
Destroy everything.
对吧？
Right?
可能当那也不奏效时，就会转向自我毁灭。
And probably when that didn't work, then there's the destruction of the self.
对吗？
Right?
因为没有什么能平息被邪恶之火煽动起来的嫉妒。
Because nothing soothes envy that is stoked by the sort of flames of evil.
而你看到的是越来越强烈的愤怒和挫败，这就是为什么我坚信，像那样在内心培育邪恶的人，最终会走向毁灭。
And what you see is more and more anger and more and more frustration, which is why I really do believe someone like that, who who nurtured evil in themselves that way, ultimately would would destroy.
他们会变成只剩他和另一个人，然后他也会杀了那个人。
They'd be like him and one other person, then he'd kill the other person.
我觉得这个说法非常有力量。
I think that's really powerfully said.
但回到嫉妒与妒忌的话题，我仍然认为它们是同一种火焰，妒忌只是更强烈的版本。
But even just to return to the jealousy versus envy, I still think that it's the same flame, and envy is just the bigger version of it.
所以我想，在我个人的生活中，我也曾对他人产生过嫉妒。
So I I think I just in my own personal life, I've felt jealousy towards others.
就像你说的，比如，这个人有个更酷的小玩意儿，或者任何我在意的小东西。
Like you said, like, oh, this person has a, I don't know, a cooler thing, trinket, whatever trinket I cared about.
通常这种情况发生在别人和你正在打造的东西非常接近的时候。
And usually, it's when somebody's really close to the the the trinket you're building.
是的。
Yeah.
我在青少年时期就意识到，从经验来看，持续一周的嫉妒感让人很不舒服。
And I I early on, like, in my teens, I realized that just just empirically speaking, that jealousy over a period of a week just doesn't feel good.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且这毫无建设性。
And it's not productive.
它并不能帮助我打造出更好的东西。
It doesn't help me build a better trinket.
如果我将它转化为对打造更好小玩意的热爱，而非对他人的嫉妒，那就有帮助。
It does if I turn it not into jealousy towards another person, but into a love for building a better trinket.
就像是，哇，真酷。
It's like, oh, cool.
几乎就像是，你知道吗？
Almost you you know what?
从积极的角度来说，后来在生活中，像乔·罗根这样的人对我产生了巨大影响——作为他的粉丝，我学会了欣赏他人。
Like, proactively speaking, and later in life, like, people like Joe Rogan actually have been really powerful in this for me just as a fan of his to celebrate other people.
所以这与其说是忽略那个拥有酷炫小玩意的人，
So it's almost as opposed to ignoring that other person with a cool trinket.
不如说是在心里赞叹他们的了不起。
It's like celebrating their awesomeness in my mind.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像是感叹人类能做到这些有多棒，特别是那个人能做到这些有多厉害。
Like, just saying how awesome that humans are able to do that, and actually just how awesome is that exact person at being able to do that.
是的。
Yeah.
不知怎的，这让我更有能力把自己的小玩意做得更好。
And that somehow made me more capable to build my own trinket better.
没错。
Yes.
而且感觉也很棒。
And it feels good also.
就像，这让我感到快乐。
Like, it makes me feel happy.
现在你不再嫉妒了。
And now you're not jealous anymore.
你不再嫉妒了。
You're not jealous anymore.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么我认为嫉妒是不同的。
That's why I think jealousy is different.
对吧？
Right?
因为你说有一周的嫉妒期，就像，我不喜欢这样。
Because you're saying there's a week of jealousy, like, I don't like this.
对吧？
Right?
我不喜欢，但如果你换个角度想，等一下。
I don't like but if you take that in a way that says, wait a sec.
实际上，这太棒了。
Actually, this is awesome.
这太了不起了，这个人做到了。
This is fabulous, and this person did this.
那个人真厉害。
That person's awesome.
对吧？
Right?
那么你就不是在给任何人泼冷水了。
Then then what you're not raining on anyone's parade.
对吧？
Right?
通过不这样做，甚至在你自己的脑海里，你会对自己的能力有更清晰的认识。
And in not doing that, even inside your own mind, you you gain a greater cognizance of your own capability.
对吧？
Right?
如果他或她能做到，为什么我不能呢？
Well, if he if he can do that or she can do that, why can't I too?
我也想打造更好的小玩意儿。
Like, I wanna build I wanna make the better trinket too.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
现在你开始有创意地思考了。
Now you're thinking creatively.
这其中完全没有邪恶的滋生。
Nowhere in there nowhere in there was the emergence of evil.
我完全不认同那种观点。
I just disagree with that.
我认为当时做了一个选择，我...嗯。
I think there was a choice made where I Uh-huh.
我审视过——如果我的人生更阴暗艰难，我认为这与心中那点嫉妒的火苗毫无关系。
I looked at my if my life was darker and more difficult, I think it has nothing to do with the actual little flame of jealousy I felt.
我认为更多是与其他背景因素有关。
I think it has to do a lot more with the other context.
如果...如果我的人生更艰难，遭受更多虐待，面临更多挑战，我想我本可能做出不同的抉择。
If if I if if my life were more difficult, there was more abuse, there was more challenges, I think that decision I could have made that decision a different direction.
是的。
Yes.
也许我不知道。
Maybe I don't know.
对。
Yeah.
你...你写关于创伤的文章写得非常精彩。
You you you've written brilliantly about trauma.
如果在我的决策背景中存在更多创伤，我就更可能无法摆脱嫉妒的引力场，它会不断累积、累积、再累积。
If there's a bit more trauma as the background noise of my decision making, I'll be more likely to not be able to pull away from the gravitational field of that jealousy, and it would build and build and build and build.
所以我认为...不是要反驳一位杰出人士的观点，但我感觉
So I think I not to disagree with a with a brilliant person, but, like, I I feel like
那团火焰...那团火焰有能力吞噬整个世界。
that flame that flame has the capacity to engulf the whole world.
我想最初的那点嫉妒之火，尤其是年纪越小的时候，它几乎就像一种习惯，你可以朝任何方向培养它。
I guess the the initial flame of jealousy, the little bit, like, especially the younger you are, it's it's it's almost like a habit that you get to build in either direction.
因为我早早养成了一个习惯，告诉自己要把嫉妒转化为生产力，转化为对他人的赞美，这样嫉妒就会消失。
Because I've early on built a habit of saying, I'm going to channel that jealousy into productivity and and into celebrating other people, and that jealousy disappears.
这对我来说是个小小的发现。
That was a, like, a little discovery for me.
我发现了这一点。
I I discovered that.
我明白了。
I get it.
没人会告诉你这些。
That doesn't come nobody tells that to you.
这种发现需要你自己去领悟。
You kinda discover that little thing.
我本可能永远发现不了这一点。
I could have easily not discovered it.
我本可能轻易发现，去刁难那个人、怀着龌龊想法、消极念头、对他人使坏反而会带来快感。
I could have easily discovered that it kinda feels good to to, like, mess with that other person, to, like, think shitty thoughts, think negative thoughts, do negative things to the other person.
因为我觉得，那种初始感受中的潜力是存在的，我认为这是我们将会做出的一个决定。
Because that could also I I I just think the capacity in that initial feeling is there, and I think it's a decision we'll make.
因为，否则的话，我觉得这是在推卸责任，就像，我当然不是希特勒。
Because, like, otherwise, I think it's it dissolves responsibility, like, well, surely, I'm not Hitler.
因此，这种嫉妒是正常的。
Therefore, this jealousy is normal.
不。
No.
我只是觉得每一种嫉妒都有可能演变成——也许不是希特勒那种程度——但会变成一种以微小方式破坏你私人生活的毒性。
I just feel like every jealousy has the capacity to turn into maybe not Hitler, but a toxicity that destroys in in a small way in your own little private life, but Right.
它确实具有破坏性。
It could destroy.
我同意嫉妒会让我们危险地接近羡慕。
I agree that jealousy brings us can bring us dangerously close to envy.
我是说，或许我们可以看看能否达成一个经验法则。
I mean, maybe maybe let's see if if if a heuristic we could agree on.
对吧？
Right?
让我们看看。
Let's see.
那么假设好吧。
So let's say okay.
如果我们把心理地形看作地理。
If we look at the terrain of the mind as geography.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果我感到快乐、满足，可能就离嫉妒之地相当远了。
So if I'm feeling happy, satisfied, probably, like, I'm I'm pretty far from from envy land.
对吧？
Right?
对吧？
Right?
但如果我现在感到嫉妒，我就离那个边界更近了一些。
But but if I'm feeling jealousy now, I'm I'm I'm coming kinda closer to that border.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
而且我认为跨越边界仍然是一件大事。
And I still I think there's it's a big thing to go over the border.
对吧？
Right?
那个边界处于灰色地带。
That the border is in a gray area.
对吧？
Right?
确实存在一个需要跨越的边界，我完全同意你的看法。
There's a border to go over, and I think that you you I agree completely.
首先，关于创伤，创伤越多，对自我和‘我不够好’这种感受的误解就越多，进而会转化为对原因和压迫者的愤怒，最终导致我憎恨自己以及所有看似比我优秀的人。
One, certainly about trauma, that the more trauma there is because then the more misunderstandings there are about self and feelings that I'm not good enough, and then that can be anger about why and who might be oppressing me, and, I hate myself and everyone else who seems to be better.
因此创伤可能将我们推向这些负面方向，但我们仍在跨越某些界限。
So the trauma can drive us in these negative directions, but we're still crossing over something.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以如果你拥有那个小饰品，我觉得那太棒了。
So so if you have the trinket and I think, that's awesome.
我想要那个。
I want that.
我想要更努力工作。
I want to work harder.
不过你知道我能做什么吗？我可以趁今晚没人的时候溜进去，移动某样东西。
Know You what I could do though is I could sneak in tonight when no one's around, and I could move something.
不。
No.
不。
No.
等等。
Wait.
我不想那样做。
I don't wanna do that.
对吧？
Right?
但我就像稍微越过了边界，我在想或许那是个更好的方法，但后来我又回来了。
But it's like I came over the border a little bit, and I thought maybe maybe that's a better way, but then I came back.
对吧？
Right?
而我...而且...你...我们要为此负责。
And I'm and and you're we're responsible for that.
对吧？
Right?
因为说'我不想努力'本身就是一种选择。
Because it is a choice to say, I don't want to work hard.
我已经够努力了。
I'm already working how how hard.
我不想改进我的小玩意儿。
I don't want to make my trinket better.
我就觉得我的就是最好的。
I want to think mine's the best one.
我可以毁掉你的。
I could destroy yours.
对吧？
Right?
然后，你知道，我们让思维越过那条边界时，我们会说，对，继续推进。
Then, you know, we're letting our mind go over that border, and do we say, right, run that forward.
对吧？
Right?
让我们继续这样下去，聚集志同道合的人，开始行动，以至于我们越来越轻视自己，贬低自己？
Let's run that forward and put people around us who feel the same way and start doing it so we think less of ourselves and we debase ourselves?
我们是鲁莽地冲进去，还是跨越那条界限？
Do we run headlong in, or do we come over that boundary?
这或许就是我们内心邪恶的潜能，我们都会时不时地跨越那条界限，对吧。
And that's maybe the capacity for evil in us, that we come over that boundary, all of us, right, at times.
但我们是否跨越了那条界限后，却说‘不’
But do we come over it and then say, no.
那不是我的选择
That that's not my choice.
那不是我的自我定义
That's not my self definition.
是的
Yeah.
我回来了。
I'm coming back.
但我试图论证，也许还有其他某些社会力量也在帮助我们跨越那条界限。
But I'm trying to justify maybe there's certain other sociological forces that help us cross the border too.
所以在纳粹德国，我们一直在谈论希特勒，但还有德国人民。
So in Nazi Germany, we've been talking about Hitler, but then there's also the the the German people.
嗯。
Mhmm.
也许当存在某种群体性狂热时，所有这些效应——比如宣传与普通人那些未越界的微小嫉妒和怨恨相结合——在极具魅力的领袖煽动下，能让我们在群体中感受到那种被点燃的情绪。
And so maybe when there's a bit of a mass hysteria, so all these effects of, like, combination of propaganda with the small jealousies and resentments of the people that don't cross the border, together they can with with great charismatic leaders that sort of really fuel that fire that we feel when we're part of the crowd.
因此，我们个人从嫉妒到怨恨的心理障碍要跨越的那一步，可能会变得更容易。
So maybe those individual kind of psychological barriers we have to take that leap from jealousy to envy, those can be made easier.
这种跨越可以通过这种大规模的...
The the leap can be catalyzed through this massive 100.
百分之百。
100%.
我认为这对我来说是个关键点。
I think that to me is a massive point.
我们讨论的是涌现的层次。
We're talking about layers of emergence.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果存在个体意识...哦，天哪。
So if there's individual consciousness Oh, boy.
然后还有文化。
Then there's culture.
对吧？
Right?
而且，你知道，可以说我们是所处环境的产物。
And, you know, we're products of the soup we swim in, so to speak.
我小时候人们常这么说。
People would say that when I was growing up.
对吧？
Right?
我们就是我们浸泡其中的文化环境的产物。
We we are products of the soup we swim in.
如果我们所处的环境充满仇恨，是的。
So if the soup that we're swimming in is the soup of hatred Yeah.
没错，那就会滋生所有这些负面因素。
Right, then it's gonna foster all of those things.
所以你可以粗略地想象一下，二战前德国形成的文化氛围，以及一战后战争赔款带来的影响？
So then you think about just in a painting with a very broad brush, the culture created in Germany prior to the second world war, and, like, what was the impact of the reparations after the first world War?
对吧？
Right?
那些惩罚性的赔款、贫困化，以及人们感受到的基本尊严的丧失。
Of the the the punishing reparations, impoverishment, and, you know, basic humiliation, right, that that people were feeling.
好的。
Okay.
比如，有一系列决策影响了那种文化视角。
Like, that's there were a whole bunch of decisions that impacted that cultural perspective.
对吧？
Right?
那么肯定存在某些方面，就像我现在从很多方面看到的美国相似之处，我们向他人传达的标准是什么。
Then there must have been aspects just like I see in many ways parallels in in America now of what are our standards for what we're communicating to others.
对吧？
Right?
媒体是如何决定什么是真实、什么不真实，什么是真相、什么不是真相的？
How is the media deciding, like, what's real and what's not real, what's true, What's not true?
什么样的仇恨只会带来邪恶，而什么样的仇恨是可以接受的，因为我可能通过传播它来销售某些东西？
What's hatred that that is only gonna do evil versus what's hatred that's okay because I might sell something by by putting it out there?
我的意思是，我们知道这在纳粹崛起时期的德国发生过，我认为这与我们现在的情况有相似之处——我们是否还重视真相？
I mean, that was we know that was going on in Germany during the rise of the Nazis, and and I think there's a parallel to, you know, do we value truth?
我们能否团结一致地说，无论我在政治上与你有多大分歧？
Do can we stand together and say, no matter how much I might disagree with you politically?
对吧？
Right?
我们仍然能够理解，什么是对，什么是错。
We can still understand, like, that there's there's right and there's wrong.
对吧？
Right?
有真相，也有谎言。
There's truth and there's lies.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为这些只是文化决定因素的两个例子，然后文化又决定了，像希特勒这样的人是否被边缘化——那是个疯狂的恶人。
So so I think those are just two examples of determinants of culture, and then the the culture is a determinant of, you know, is someone like Hitler marginalizes, like, that's a that's a crazy evil person.
天啊。
Oh my goodness.
哇。
Like, woah.
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