#398 —— 马克·扎克伯格：元宇宙首场访谈

它还在追踪你手部的细节，用于手势识别这类功能。

It's also tracking the details of your hands in order to use that for, like, gesture recognition, this kind of stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在手部识别技术上取得的进展比我预期的要快得多，这非常棒。

We've been able to get way further on hand recognition in a shorter period of time than I expected, so that's been pretty cool.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你看到我们围绕钢琴打造的演示体验了吗？

Did you see the the demo experience that we built around Piano?

就是那个，对，钢琴，学弹钢琴的那个？

Like, yeah, the piano, learning to play piano?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

太不可思议了。

It's incredible.

你基本上是在桌子上弹钢琴，而且完全不需要任何控制器。

You're basically playing piano on a table, and it's that's without any controller.

而且它完美匹配物理现实毫无延迟，它能无延迟追踪你的双手，还能无延迟追踪周围所有人，将物理现实与数字现实融为一体。

And, like, how well it matches physical reality with no latency, and it's it's tracking your hands with no latency, and it's tracking all the people around you with no latency, integrating physical reality and digital reality.

显然这正好与柯达虚拟形象技术相呼应，它让我们能在混合现实中拥有超写实的自我数字分身。

Obviously, that connects exactly to this Kodak avatar, which is in parallel, allows us to have ultra realistic copies of ourselves in this mixed reality.

这一切都在朝着元宇宙中不可思议的数字体验方向融合。

It's so, like, it's all converging towards, like, an incredible digital experience in the metaverse.

对我来说，显然我钟爱这种对话的亲密感，所以连现在这样都很棒。

To me, obviously, I love the intimacy of conversation, so even this is awesome.

但你觉得这项技术还能解锁哪些应用场景？比如柯达虚拟形象技术能让我们实现哪些新可能？

But do you have other ideas of what this unlocks of, like, something like Kodak avatar unlocks in terms of applications, in terms of things we're able to do?

总的来说，虚拟形象技术能在物理世界上叠加数字对象，这方面有很多可能性。

Well, there's what you can do with avatars overall in terms of superimposing digital objects on the physical world.

从心理学角度来说，拥有照片级真实感会产生什么影响？

And then there's kind of psychologically, what does having photorealistic do?

我认为我们正迈向这样一个世界：看起来像普通眼镜的设备，既能让你看到现实世界，也能看到全息影像。

You know, so I I think we're moving towards a world where, you know, we're gonna have something that looks like normal glasses where you can just see you can see the physical world, but you will see holograms.

在那个世界里，我想这些技术离我们并不太遥远。

And in that world, I think that they're gonna be, you know, not too far off.

也许到这个年代末，我们将生活在一个房间里全息影像与实体物品数量相当的世界。

Maybe by the end of this decade, we'll be living in a world where there are kinda as many holograms when you walk into a room as there are physical objects.

这确实引发了一个有趣的问题——很多人用'现实世界'这个词来指代物理世界。

And it it really raises this interesting question about what are about you know, a lot of people have this phrase where they they they call the physical world the real world.

我个人认为，物理世界固然极其重要，但真正的现实世界其实是物理世界与数字世界的融合。

And, you know, I I kinda think increasingly, you know, the physical world is super important, but I actually think the the real world is the combination of the physical world and the digital worlds coming together.

但在这项技术出现前，两者是相对分离的。

But until this technology, they were sort of separate.

对吧？

Right?

就像你通过屏幕访问数字世界那样。

It's like you access the digital world through a screen.

对吧？

Right?

可能是随身携带的小屏幕，或是办公桌前需要长时间专注使用的大屏幕。

And, you know, maybe it's a small screen that you carry around or it's a bigger screen where you sit down at your desk and strap in for a long session.

但它们本质上是割裂的。这项技术的意义就在于将两者融合，创造出符合现代真实世界的统一体验——必须包含物理维度，因为我们本就是物理存在。

But but they're they're kind of fundamentally divorced and disconnected, and I think part of what this technology is gonna do is bring those together into a single coherent experience of what the modern real world is, which is it's gotta be physical because that we're physical beings.

物理世界永远都极其重要。

So the physical world is is always gonna be super important.

但我认为，越来越多我们想象中的事物都可以变成数字全息影像。

But but increasingly, I think a lot of the things that we kind of think of can be digital holograms.

我是说，任何屏幕都能显示全息影像。任何媒体、书籍、艺术品，基本上都能以全息形式呈现，效果与实物无异。

I mean, any screen that you have can be a hologram You know, any media, in any book, art, you know, can basically be just as effective as a hologram as a physical object.

无论是棋盘游戏、纸牌游戏、乒乓球这类实体游戏，

Any game that you're playing, a board game or or any kind of physical game, cards, you know, ping pong, things like that.

它们以全息形式呈现往往效果更好，因为你只需打个响指就能立即生成并显示出来。

They're they're often a lot better as holograms because you could just kinda snap your fingers and instantiate them and have them show up.

就像客厅里突然出现一张乒乓球桌，再打个响指又能让它消失。

You know, it's like you have a ping pong table show up in your living room, but then you can snap your fingers and have it be gone.

这非常强大。

So that's super powerful.

所以我认为，这其实是个绝妙的思维实验：想想我们今天有多少实体物品其实可以变成交互式全息影像而更实用。

So I think that it's it's actually an amazing thought experiment of, like, how many physical things we have today that could actually be better as interactive holograms.

但除此之外，我认为最重要的显然是人。

But then beyond that, I think the the the most important thing obviously is people.

这种混合聚会的功能——无论是社交还是会议——你戴着眼镜或头显走进会议室（短期内会这样，希望未来五年内能普及眼镜设备），

So the ability to, you know, have these mixed hangouts, whether they're social or meetings where, you know, you show up to a conference room, you're wearing glasses or a headset in the very near term, but, you know, hopefully by, you know, over the next five years, glasses or so.

而你本人确实就在那里。

And and, you know, you're there physically.

有些人是真实在场的，另一些人则以全息形式出现，但感觉就像他们本人就在眼前。

Some people are there physically, but other people are just there as holograms, and it feels like it's them who are right there.

顺便说，我认为这种方式能将数字世界与物理世界融合的另一个迷人之处在于，我们还能让人工智能具身化。

And and also, by the way, another thing that I think is gonna be fascinating about being able to blend together the digital and physical worlds in this way is we're also going to be able to embody AIs as well.

所以我认为未来的会议场景可能是：你本人实际在场，同时有几个以全息影像形式参会的同事，还有你们团队的人工智能工程师Bob——它将以逼真虚拟形象的形式具身化，用这种方式加入会议。

So I think you'll also have meetings in the future where you're basically, you know, maybe you're sitting there physically and then you have, you know, a couple of other people who are there as holograms, and then you have like Bob the AI who's an engineer on your team who's helping with things, and he can now be embodied as a, you know, as as a realistic avatar as well and just join the meeting in in that way.

我觉得这个构想会非常有吸引力。

So I think that that that's gonna be pretty compelling as well.

那么好吧。

So then okay.

与现在常见的表情丰富的虚拟形象相比，超写实虚拟形象能带来哪些不同体验？

So what can you do with photorealistic avatars compared to kind of the more expressive ones that we have today?

我认为很大程度上这取决于人们对技术的接受程度。

Well, I think a lot of this actually comes down to acceptance of the technology.

毕竟我们实现的技术——包括眉毛运动、眼球转动、面部肌肉活动等所有细节——这些功能其实同样可以应用在表情型虚拟形象上。

And because all of the stuff that we're doing, I mean, the the motion of your eyebrows, the motion of your eyes, the cheeks, and and all of that, there's actually no reason why you couldn't do that on an expressive avatar too.

虽然看起来不会完全像你本人，但完全可以创造一个卡通版本并保持几乎相同的表现力。

I mean, it wouldn't look exactly like you, but, you you can make a cartoon version of yourself and still have it be almost as expressive.

但我确实认为，在当下以物理世界为主的交互方式与未来这种物理数字混合世界之间，超写实虚拟形象能帮助人们更顺利地过渡并认真对待这些新体验。

But I I do think that there's this bridge between the current state of of most of our interactions in the physical world and where we're getting in the future with this kind of hybrid physical and digital world where I think it's gonna be a lot easier for people to kind of take some of these experiences seriously with the photorealistic avatars to start.

我其实非常好奇长期发展会如何。

And then I'm actually really curious to see where it goes longer term.

可以预见一种可能是人们坚持使用写实形象，或许会做些修饰让它们更有趣，但本质上我们可能就偏爱写实风格。

I could see a world where people stick to the photorealistic and maybe they modify them to make them a little bit more interesting, but maybe fundamentally we like photorealistic things.

但我也能想象另一种可能：当人们习惯超写实虚拟形象和这些体验后，反而会更倾向于用不受物理现实束缚的方式来表达自我。

But I could also see a world that once people get used to the photo the photorealistic avatars and they get used to these experiences that I I actually think that there could be a world where people actually prefer being able to express themselves in kind of non, you know, ways that aren't so tied to their physical reality.

这正是我深感好奇的一点。

That's And one of things that I'm really curious about.

我也不太确定。

And I don't know.

在我们内部进行的多次实验中，我发现一个心理上相当有趣的现象：人们对于混合使用写实与非写实元素毫无障碍。

In a bunch of our internal experiments on this, one of the things that has I thought was psychologically pretty interesting is people have no issues blending photorealistic stuff and not.

比如现在这个特定场景中，嗯...

So, you know, we can have a you know, for this specific scene that we're in now Mhmm.

我们恰好身处一个昏暗的房间。

We we happen to sort of be in a dark room.

我认为这种美学选择部分是基于你制作播客的偏好。

I I think part of that aesthetic decision I think was based on the way you like to do your podcast.

但我们也尝试过这样的场景：卡通风格的背景里，交谈对象却是写实的人物形象。

But we've we've done experiences like this where you have like a cartoony background, but photorealistic people who you're talking to.

而人们似乎觉得这种组合再正常不过。

And we seem to like, people just seem to just think that that is completely normal.

对吧？

Right?

这不会让你感到不适。

It doesn't bother you.

也不会觉得怪异。

It doesn't feel like it's weird.

我们还经历过另一种情况：与你对话的是写实虚拟形象，而旁边就站着表情丰富的卡通角色。

Another thing that that we've experienced with is is basically you have a photorealistic avatar that you're talking to, and then right next to them, you have an expressive kind of cartoon avatar.

其实这也挺正常的。

And that actually is pretty normal too.

对吧？

Right?

这其实并不奇怪，对吧？基本上就是以不同模式与不同人互动。

It's it's like it's not that weird, right, to to basically being interacting with with different people in different modes like that.

所以我不太确定。

So I'm I'm not sure.

我认为一个有趣的问题是：这些逼真虚拟形象在多大程度上是从物理世界舒适过渡到这种融合数字与物理的新现代现实世界的关键部分，还是说它们会长期保持这种形态。

I think it'll be an interesting question to what extent these photorealistic avatars are like a key part of just transitioning from being comfortable in the physical world to this kind of new modern real world that that kind of includes both the digital and physical, or if this is like the long term way that it stays.

我的意思是，我认为随着时间的推移，表达型和逼真型虚拟形象都会有各自的用途。

That's that's a I mean, I think that there are gonna be uses for both the expressive and the photorealistic over time.

我只是不知道平衡点会在哪里。

I just don't know what the balance is gonna be.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实是个非常有趣的哲学问题。

It's a really good interesting philosophical question.

但短期对我来说，逼真度太惊人了——就像你说的会议室场景，但我更希望是在海滩上喝着啤酒，远程看到朋友就坐在我旁边椅子上也喝着啤酒。

But to me in the short term, the photorealistic is amazing to where I would prefer, like, you said the work room, but, like, on a beach with a beer to to see a buddy of mine remotely on a chair next to me drinking a beer.

我是说，越逼真就越能带来难以置信的体验。

I mean, that, as realistic as possible, is an incredible experience.

所以我可不想看到他戴什么假帽子。

So I don't want any fake hats on him.

我不想只是和朋友各自待在不同地方，喝着啤酒看着海景消磨时间。

I don't want any just chilling with a with a friend, drinking beer, looking at the ocean while not being in the same place together.

我是说，确实。

I mean, that Yeah.

这种体验本质上就是高质量的友谊体验。

That experience is just it's it's it's a fundamentally it's just a high quality experience of friendship.

我们在友谊中寻求的一切，似乎都能以我现在看到的这种真实感呈现出来。

Whatever we seek in friendship, it seems to be present there in the same kind of realism I'm seeing right now.

这完全是颠覆性的改变。

This is this is totally a game changer.

所以对我来说，我能预见自己会长期坚持使用这个。

So to me, this is I can see myself sticking with this for a long time.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这既新颖，又是技术壮举。

And, I mean, it's also it's novel, and it's also a technological feat.

对吧？

Right?

能实现这种效果相当了不起，我认为在某种程度上这就是种超棒的体验。

It's like being able to pull this off is like it's a it's like a pretty impressive, and I I think to some degree, it's just this kind of, like, awesome experience.

没错。

Yeah.

不过很抱歉打断你。

But I'm already sorry to interrupt.

我已经开始忘记你并非真实存在。

I'm already forgetting that you're not real.

就像，这真的很新奇，所以我为什么是小说。

Like, this really so it's Why am novel.

这只是我的一个虚拟化身版本

It's it's just a an avatar version

的我。

of me.

但它是

But It's

一个但深层次的

a but deep

哲学问题。

philosophical question.

是的。

Yes.

但是，我是说，今天早上我戴上这个时，我就想，好吧。

But, I mean, but here's some of the so I put this on this morning, and I was like, alright.

就像，感觉还行。

Like, it's like, okay.

所以这个形象里我的头发比我实际的要短一些。

So this my hair is a little shorter in this than my physical hair is right now.

我可能该去理发了。

I probably need to go get a haircut.

当然。

Sure.

而且，其实我今天早上确实刮了胡子，但如果没有的话，你知道，我仍然可以拥有这个更干净利落的照片级真实头像，对吧，即使我实际上已经几天没刮胡子了。

And, like and I actually I did happen to shave this morning, but but if I hadn't, you know, I could still have this photorealistic avatar that is that is more cleanly shaven, right, even if I'm, you know, a few days in physically.

所以我认为，这些微妙的问题会逐渐浮现——头像在某种意义上确实是真实的，因为它捕捉了你某个时刻的样子，但并不一定与此时此刻的你完全吻合。

So I do think that there are gonna start to be these subtle questions that seep in where the the avatar is realistic in in the sense of this is kind of what you looked like at the time of capture, but it's not necessarily temporally accurate to exactly what you look like at this moment.

我知道随着时间的推移，这会引发一系列问题，我觉得这些也会非常有趣。

And I know they're gonna end up being a bunch of questions that come from that over time that I think are gonna be fascinating too.

你是指关于我们身份本质的问题吗？

You mean just like the nature of identity of who we are?

我们是

Are we the

是的。

Yeah.

你知道人们会追求那种夏日海滩身材吧？

People you know how people do like like summer beach body?

为了扫描，人们可能会努力减肥，以最佳状态和最性感的样子出现，打理好头发等等。

Will people be for the scan, they'll try to lose some weight and look their best and sexiest with the nice hair and everything like that.

我是说，这确实提出了一个问题：如果很多人都在与我们自己的数字版本互动，那我们到底是谁？

I mean, it does it does raise the question of, you know, if a lot of people are interacting with the digital version of ourselves, who are we really?

我们是操控头像的实体，还是头像本身？

Are we the the entity driving the avatar, or are we the avatar?

嗯，我是说，我们的肉体也会随着时间波动变化，所以我觉得类似的问题是：我们到底是哪个版本的自己？

Well, I mean, I think our physical bodies also fluctuate and change over time too, so I think there's a similar question of, like, which version of that are we?

对吧？

Right?

就是...那个...我是说...这是个很有趣的身份认同问题，因为...好吧...就像...我不知道...就像体重会波动之类的。

There's there's, like, the I mean, it's and and it's interesting identity question because, alright, it's like, I don't know, it's like weight fluctuates or or things like that.

就像...我...我觉得大多数人不会把自己想象成...嗯...我也不知道。

It's like, I I I think most people don't tend to think of themselves as the well, I don't know.

这是个很有趣的心理学问题。

It's it's an interesting psychological question.

也许有些人...可能很多人会把自己想象成最糟糕的版本，但我觉得很多人可能会把自己想象成最好的版本。

Some maybe some people maybe a lot of people do think about themselves as the kind of worst version, but, you know, but I think a lot of people probably think about themselves as the best version.

嗯。

And Yeah.

然后...日常生活中的你其实并不完全符合其中任何一种。

And I I and then it's like what you are on a day to day basis doesn't necessarily map to to either of those.

所以我觉得...是的。

So I think that's yeah.

肯定会有很多社会科学家和心理学家需要研究...我们对自我和他人认知的这种转变还有很多需要理解的地方。

It it there will definitely be a bunch of a bunch of social scientists and and folks will have to, you know, and and psychologists are really, there's gonna be a lot to understand about how our perception of ourselves and others has shifted from this.

嗯，这可能是个复杂又沉重的问题，但我最初的感受之一就是很想和亲人交谈。

Well, this might be a bit of a complicated and a dark question, but one of the first feelings I had experiencing this is I would love to talk to loved ones.

然后我紧接着想到的是，我很想和那些已经离世的亲人说话。

And the next question I have is I would love to talk to people who are no longer here that are loved ones.

所以，如果你展望未来，你会不会想到那些去世的人仍然可以存在于元宇宙中？你还能和已故的父亲、祖父祖母和母亲交谈？

So, like, if you look into the future, is that something you think about, who people who pass away, but they can still exist in the metaverse, and you can still have you know, talk to your father, talk to your grandfather and grandmother and and mother once they pass away.

那次经历的力量是我脑海中首先闪现的事情之一，因为它感觉如此真实。

The power of that experience is one of the first things my mind jumped to because it's like, this is so real.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为人们需要围绕这方面弄清楚许多规范和事项。

I think that there are a lot of norms and things that people have to figure out around that.

可能需要某种平衡——比如当有人失去挚爱并处于悲痛中时，能够互动或重温某些记忆可能有所帮助，但也可能存在变得不健康的程度。

There's probably some balance where, you know, if someone has has lost a loved one and is grieving, there there may be ways in which, you know, being able to interact or relive certain memories could be helpful, but then there's also probably an extent to which it it could become unhealthy.

而且，我并非这方面的专家，所以我认为我们需要对此进行研究并更详细地理解。

And, I mean, I I'm not an expert in that, so I think we'd have to study that and and understand it in more detail.

不幸的是，我们已通过社交媒体在如何处理死亡、身份和人们的数字内容方面积累了相当多的经验。

We have, you know, a fair amount of experience with how to handle death and identity and people's digital content through social media already, unfortunately.

对吧？

Right?

不幸的是，每天都有使用我们服务的人去世，而他们的家人通常希望访问其个人资料。

Whether, you know, there's, you know, unfortunately, you know, people who use our services die every day, and their families, you know, often wanna have access to their profiles.

我们有一整套处理流程，其中某些部分我们会尝试纪念化，以便家人能够访问，这样账户不会立即消失。

And we have whole protocols that we go through where there are certain parts of it that that we try to memorialize, so that way the the family can can get access to it, so that way the account doesn't just go away immediately.

但也存在其他属于个人重要隐私的内容。

But then there are other things that are, you know, important kind of private things that that person has.

比如，我们不会让家人访问某人的消息记录。

Like, we're not gonna give the family access to someone's messages, you know, for example.

所以，我认为当前数字世界的一些最佳实践将会延续下去。

So so, yeah, I I think that there's there's some best practices I think from the current digital world that will carry over.

但是，嗯，我认为这将促成一些不同的事情。

But but, yeah, I I think that this will enable some different things.

另一个版本是这与人工智能的交集。

Another version of this is is is how this intersects with AIs.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们真正关注的一点是，我们希望世界朝着这样的方向发展：不是出现单一的人工智能超级智能，而是让许多人通过拥有AI工具来增强能力，完成工作，改善生活。

Because and one of the the things that that we're really focused on is, you know, we we want there to we want the world to evolve in a way where there isn't like a single AI superintelligence, but where, you know, a lot of people are empowered by having AI tools to to do their jobs and, you know, make their lives better.

如果你是创作者，比如运营像你这样的播客，那么你会有一个非常愿意与你交流的大型社群。

And if you're a creator, right, and if you run a, you know, podcast like you do, then, you know, you have a big community of people who are super interested to talk to you.

我知道你很想培育这个社群，也会在播客之外与他们在线互动，但需求远不止于此——人们想与你互动，你也想更多地与社群交流，只是受限于一天的时间。

I know you'd love to cultivate that community and you interact with them online outside of the podcast as well, but I mean, there's way more demand both to interact with you and I'm sure you'd love to interact with the community more, but you just are limited by the number of hours in the day.

所以，我认为最终可以打造一个你的AI版本，在你生前（而非死后）就能帮助人们实现与你互动的愿望，同时满足你建设社群的渴望。

So, you know, at some point, I think making it so that you could build an AI version of yourself that could interact with people, you know, not after you die, but while you're here to help, you know, help people kind of fulfill this desire to interact with you and your desire to build a community.

这涉及许多有趣的问题。

And there's a lot of interesting questions around that.

显然，这不仅限于元宇宙。

You know, that's obviously it's not just in in the metaverse.

我们希望这个功能能在所有通讯平台上实现，比如WhatsApp、Messenger和Instagram Direct。

I think, you know, we we'd wanna make that work, you know, across all the messaging platforms, you know, WhatsApp and Messenger and Instagram Direct.

但在元宇宙中，你可以拥有一个AI化的虚拟形象，人们知道与之互动的是AI而非真实的你——即便知道是AI，这仍是次优选择，因为他们未必都能直接与你交流。

But, you know, there's certainly, you know, a version of that where if you could have an avatar version of yourself in the metaverse that people can interact with and you could define that sort of an AI version where, you know, people know that they're interacting with an AI, that it's not, you know, the the the kind of physical version of you, but maybe that AI, even if they know it's an AI, is the next best thing because they're probably not gonna necessarily all get to interact with you directly.

我认为这将是一种极具吸引力的体验。

I think that that could be a really compelling experience.

关于这一点，我们还有许多需要完善的地方。目前我们尚未准备好发布一个能让创作者初步构建自己数字版本的AI，但我们正开始尝试推出多种AI，让人们能以不同方式与之互动。

There's a lot of things that we need to get right about it, that, you know, it's we're not ready to release the the version that a creator can can kinda build a version of themselves yet, but we're starting to experiment with it in terms of releasing a number of AIs that people can interact with in different ways.

我认为，随着时间的推移，这将逐渐成为人们手中一套非常强大的能力组合。

And I I think that that is is also just gonna be a very powerful, you know, set of capabilities that people have over time.

所以你们在开发这些早期AI人格方面取得了重大进展，其核心理念是让人们能在Meta系列应用中与它们对话，进行独特有趣的交流。

So you've made major strides in developing these early AI personalities with the idea where you can talk to them across the meta apps and have, like, interesting, unique kind of conversations.

能否描述一下你们在这些初步成果中的愿景？以及面临哪些技术挑战？

What can you describe your vision there in these early strides, and what are some technical challenges there?

是的。

Yeah.

这个愿景很大程度上源于一个理念：我认为我们未必需要追求一个单一的超级智能。

So a lot of the vision comes from this idea that, yeah, I I don't I don't think we necessarily want there to be, like, one big superintelligence.

我们希望通过AI赋能每个人，让他们既能获得乐趣，又能实现商业目标，完成他们想要达成的所有事情。

We want to empower everyone to both, have more fun, accomplish their business goals, you know, just everything that that they're trying to do.

要知道，我们通常不会只与某个人合作处理所有事务，同样地，我认为未来我们也不会只依赖单一AI。

And, you know, we don't tend to have, you know, one person that we work with on everything, and I don't think in the future we're gonna have, you know, one AI that we work with.

我认为人们会需要多样化的AI。

I think you're gonna want a variety of these.

这些AI有各种不同的用途。

So there are a bunch of different uses.

有些会更偏向于助手功能。

Some will be kind of more assistant oriented.

我们正在构建的其中一款就是这种基础简约型的AI。

There's a sort of the kind of plain and simple one that we that we're building.

它就叫Meta AI。

It's called just Meta AI.

很简单。

It's simple.

你可以在任何聊天线程里和它对话。

You can chat with it in any of your threads.

它没有实体形象，对吧？

It doesn't have a face, right?

它更偏向基础、中立和事实型，但能帮你处理很多事情。

It's just kind of more vanilla and neutral and kind of factual, but it could help you with a bunch of stuff.

还有一些更偏向商业用途的场景。

Then there are a bunch of cases that are more kind of business oriented.

比如你想联系一家小企业。

So let's say you want to contact a small business.

同理，商家可能不想专门雇人接电话，而你也懒得打电话排队等待。

You know, similarly, you know, that business probably doesn't want to have to staff someone to man the phones and you probably don't want to wait on the phone to talk to someone.

但如果有这样一个能自然对话的对象——当你遇到产品问题、需要预订服务或网购时，不必费力浏览网站或打电话等待，直接进行自然交流——这对商家和普通消费者都是双赢。

But having someone who you can just like talk to in a natural way, who can help you if you're having an issue with a product, or if you want to make a reservation, or if you want to buy something online, having the ability to to do that and have a natural conversation rather than navigate some website or have to call someone and wait on hold, I think it's gonna be really good both for the businesses and for for normal people who want to interact with businesses.

所以我觉得这类应用很有意义。

So I think stuff like that makes sense.

另外还会出现许多有趣的用途。

Then there are gonna be a bunch of use cases that I think are just fun.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为人们将会...我觉得未来会有能讲笑话的AI，你可以把它们放进和朋友的聊天群里。

So I think people are gonna I think that there will be AIs that can tell jokes, so you can put them into chat thread with friends.

我的意思是，我之所以这么想，是因为我们本质上是一家社交公司。

I mean, I think a lot of this because we're like a social company.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，我们的核心使命就是帮助人们以不同方式建立联系。

I mean, we're we're fundamentally around helping people connect in different ways.

让我感到兴奋的部分在于，如何让这类AI促进两人或更多人之间的连接，比如把它们拉进群聊，根据你们的兴趣让群聊更有趣，无论是体育、时尚还是冷知识。

And part of what I'm of what I'm excited about is, you know, how do you enable these kind of AIs to facilitate connection between two people or more, you know, put them in a group chat, know, make the group chat more interesting around whatever your interests are, sports, fashion, trivia.

电子游戏。

Video games.

我特别喜欢这个游戏创意，你提到《博德之门》这款神作，想象有个AI陪你一起玩，这看似小事，但能极大丰富游戏体验。

I love the idea of of playing, I think you mentioned Baldur's Gate, an incredible game, just having an AI that you play together with, you I mean, that could that seems like a small thing, but it could deeply enrich the, like, gaming experience.

确实，我认为AI会让游戏里的NPC变得更出色，这是另一个让我兴奋的点。我们内部测试中最受欢迎的一个AI，就是个文字冒险类的'地下城主'角色。

Well, I do think that AIs will be will make the NPCs a lot better in games too, so that's a a separate thing that I'm pretty excited But but, yeah, I mean, one of the one of the AIs that we've built that just in our internal testing people have loved the most is like a like an adventure text based get like a dungeon master.

是啊。

Yeah.

不错。

Nice.

我觉得有趣的是，我们邀请了一些真实的文化偶像来扮演这些AI角色，成为它们的化身。

And and I I think, you know, part of what what has been fun, and we we talked about this a bit, but we we've gotten some, like, real kind of cultural figures to play a bunch of these folks and be the embodiment and the avatar of them.

比如史努比狗狗当'地下城主'，这设定简直太搞笑了。

So so Snoop Dogg is the dungeon master, which I think is just hilarious.

关于接下来的步骤，如果你提到要创建一个Snoop AI，本质上就是一个人工智能人格复制品，可以是复制品也可以不是，可能是受Snoop启发的。

In terms of the next steps of, you know, if you mention you mentioned Snoop to create a Snoop AI, so basically, AI personality replica, a copy or not a copy, maybe inspired by Snoop.

这其中有哪些技术挑战？

What are the some of the technical challenges of that?

对Snoop来说，这种体验会是什么样子，能够...是的。

What does that experience look like for Snoop to be able to Yeah.

所以

So

那个人工智能？

that AI?

首先，创建新角色更容易，因为它不需要完全遵循那个真实人物想要的方式，或者他们希望如何被呈现。

So starting off, creating new personas is easier because it doesn't need to stick exactly to what, you know, that physical person would want, how they'd want to be represented.

对吧？

Right?

就像是我们创造的一个全新角色。

It's like it's just a new character that we created.

所以即使在这个案例中是Snoop，你知道，他基本上是个演员。

So even though this is Snoop in that case is, you know, he's, you know, he's basically an actor.

对吧？

Right?

他扮演地下城主，但这不是Snoop Dogg本人。

He's playing the the dungeon master, but it's not Snoop Dogg.

对吧？

Right?

这取决于，你知道的，谁是那个地下城主。

It's it's, you know, whoever the the dungeon master is.

如果你想真正实现让AI化身成某个真实创作者，就需要做一整套工作来确保这个AI不会说出创作者不希望说的话。

If you wanna actually make it so that you have an AI embodying a real creator, there's a whole set of things that you need to do to make sure that that AI is not gonna say things that the creator doesn't want.

对吧？

Right?

而且这个AI要能够，你知道的，了解事物并以创作者希望的方式、以创作者会知道的方式来呈现它们。

And and that the AI is gonna, you know, know things and be able to represent things in the way that the creator would want, in the way that the creator would know.

所以我认为这更像是...与其说是关于让虚拟形象表达他们的问题。

So I think that it's less of a it's less of a question around, like, having the avatar express them.

我是说，那个...我想我们...你知道，就像我们即将在Connect之后发布的v1版本，但你知道，它会随着时间的推移变得更好。

I mean, that that I think we're you know, it's like, well, we have our kind of v one of that that will release soon after Connect, but, you know, that'll get better over time.

但很大程度上这其实只是持续优化这些AI的模型，让它们变得越来越...不知道该怎么说，在沟通内容方面更可靠或可预测。

But a lot of this is really just about continuing to make the the models for these AIs so that they're just more and more, I don't know, you could say, like, reliable or predictable in terms of what they'll communicate.

这样一来，当你想创建一个社区可以对话的Lex助手AI时，你不需要像普通电脑那样编程。

So that way, you know, when you wanna create the Lex Assistant AI that that your community can talk to, you can you know, it's you don't program them like normal computers.

你是在训练它们。

You're training them.

它们是AI模型，不是那种普通的计算机程序。

They're AI models, not not not kind of normal computer programs.

但你希望它能足够可预测，这样你就能为它设定一些参数。

But but you wanna get it to be predictable enough so that way you can set some parameters for it.

即使它不能总是完美，你也希望它大体上能保持在这些界限内。

And even if it isn't perfect all the time, you want it to generally be able to stay within those bounds.

我认为这些是我们需要为创作者们落实的重要内容。

So that's a lot of what what I think we need to nail for for the creators.

因此我认为这实际上比从头开始创造新角色要困难得多。

And that's why that one's actually a much harder problem, I think, than starting with with with new characters that you're creating from scratch.

所以这个项目可能会在明年某个时候开始发布，不是今年，但我们会先用现有角色、助手、游戏和各种性格进行实验，并尝试在一些小企业中测试。

So that one I think will probably start releasing sometime next year, not this year, but experimenting with existing characters and the assistant and games and a bunch of different personalities and experimenting with some small businesses.

我觉得这些功能今年就能准备好，我们基本上会在Connect结束后立即推出。

I I think that that stuff will be ready to do this year, and we're rolling it out, you know, basically right after Connect.

嗯。

Yeah.

光是想象我坐下来对自己说'嘿兄弟'的场景就让我觉得特别有趣。

I'm deeply entertained by the possibility of me sitting down with myself and saying, hey, man.

比如'你该停止讲那些老爸笑话了'之类的。

Like, you need to stop the dad jokes or or whatever.

你是说做一个你和AI助手Lex之间的播客？

Idea of a podcast between you and AI assistant Lex podcast?

我是说，光是想到编解码虚拟形象能冻结自己——先模仿你，然后你做的每个动作都能看到自己在做——这种体验就很特别。

I mean, there is a just even the experience of a codec avatar being able to freeze yourself like, basically, first mimic yourself so everything you do, you get to see yourself do it.

那是一种超现实的体验。

That's a surreal experience.

就像一只猩猩第一次照镜子时突然意识到'哦，那是你'的感觉。

That feels like if I was, like, an ape looking at a mirror for the first time realizing, like, oh, that's you.

但把那个画面冻结后还能环顾四周，就像我现在看着你这样，这...我不知道该怎么形容，但这感觉像是一种全新的根本性体验。

But then freezing that and being able to look around like I'm looking at you, it's it's a I don't know how to put it into words, but it it just feels like a fundamentally new experience.

就像，我可能是第一次看见颜色。

Like, I'm seeing maybe color for the first time.

我正在经历一种全新的看世界方式，因为这是物理现实，但又是数字化的。

I'm seeing I'm experiencing a new way of seeing the world for the first time because it's physical reality, but it's digital.

当意识到这种可能性时，简直让我震惊不已。

Like and realizing that that's possible is just it's it's it's blowing my mind.

这真的令人兴奋，因为我的大部分人生都在互联网之前度过，经历了互联网、语音通讯和视频通讯的发展，你会觉得这些技术有上限，但这个让我感觉可能没有上限。

This is really exciting because I I lived most of my life, you know, before the Internet and and and experiencing the Internet and experiencing voice communication and video communication, you think, like, well, there's a ceiling to this, but this is making me feel like there might not be.

未来可能就是这种物理现实与数字现实的融合。

There might be that blend of physical reality and digital reality that's actually what the future is.

是啊。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

这是种奇特的体验。

It's a weird experience.

感觉就像是全新生活方式诞生的早期阶段。

It's a it feels like the early days of of, like, a totally new way of living.

有很多人抱怨说互联网不是现实。

And, like, there's a lot of people that kind of complain, well, you know, the Internet is not that's not reality.

他们觉得应该关掉所有设备，回归自然。

You need to turn all that off and go, you know, in nature.

但我觉得这个会让那些人满意，因为它感觉很真实，包括所有的不完美。

But this feels like this will make those people happy, I feel like, because it feels real, the flaws and everything.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我是说，我们设计这些新计算产品的一个重要理念是它们应该是实体化的。

Well, I mean, a big part of how we're trying to design these these new computing products is that they should be physical.

但我认为电脑、电视甚至手机存在的一个大问题是，虽然你可以在不同地方与它们互动，但本质上你还是坐着、静止的，而人类本不该如此。

But I think part that's a big part of the issue with computers and TVs and even phones is like, yeah, I mean, maybe you can interact with them in different places, but they're they're fundamentally like you're sitting, you're you're still, and I mean, people are just not meant to be that way.

我想我们都对运动、武术这类需要活动的项目有着共同热情。

I mean, I think you and I have this shared passion for sports and martial arts and doing stuff like that where you're just moving around.

正是四处活动才让我们成为真正的人类。

It's like so much of what makes us people is like, you you you move around.

我们不是培养皿里的大脑。

You're not we're not just like a brain in a tank.

对吧？

Right?

人类的体验本质上是物理性的。

It's the where, you know, the human experience is a physical one.

所以这不仅关乎数字世界的沉浸式呈现。

And so it's it's not just about having the immersive expression of the digital world.

关键在于如何原生地融合两者，我确实认为现实世界是物理与数字的结合体。

It's about being able to really natively bring that together, and and it it I do really think that the the real world is this mix of the physical and the digital.

对吧？

Right?

如今数字内容已庞大到不能只局限在小屏幕里，而物理体验又太重要，你肯定不愿整天坐在办公桌前。

The digital is there's too much digital at this point for it to just be siloed to a small screen, but the physical is too important, so you you don't wanna just sit down all day long at a desk.

所以我觉得这个确实如此。

So I I think that this is yeah.

我确实认为这就是未来。

I do think this is the future.

我认为这是一种哲学层面的愿景——我希望未来世界能实现物理与数字世界更和谐地融合。

This is I I think the kind of philosophical way that I would want the world to work in the future is a much more coherently blended physical and digital world.

作为社会整体，我们可能需要解决一些棘手的哲学和伦理问题。

There may be some difficult philosophical and unethical questions we have to figure out as a society.

也许你可以对此发表看法。

Maybe you can comment on this.

元宇宙似乎能解锁许多物理世界无法实现的体验。

So the the metaverse seems to enable sort of unlock a lot of experiences that we don't have in the physical world.

问题在于：元宇宙中哪些行为是被允许的？哪些不是？

And the question is, like, what is and isn't allowed in the metaverse?

你知道，在电子游戏里我们允许各种疯狂行为，而在现实世界中这些大多是非法的。

You know, in video games, we allow all kinds of crazy stuff, and in physical reality, you know, a lot of that is illegal.

那么界限在哪里？

So where is that line?

电子游戏与现实世界之间的灰色地带该如何界定？

Where is that gray area between video game and physical reality?

你对这个有概念吗？

Do you have a sense of that?

嗯，我认为...现有的内容政策已经规定了用户创作内容的边界，对吧？

Well, I think I mean, there are there are content policies and things like that, right, in terms of what what people are allowed to create.

但我的意思是，现实世界中的许多规则试图建立一个尽可能自由的社会，即人们可以做任何想做的事，除非会伤害他人或侵犯他人权利。

But, I mean, a lot of the rules around physical, I think, could try to have a society that is as free as possible, meaning that people can do as much of what they want unless you're gonna do damage to other people and and infringe on on their rights.

而在数字环境中，'伤害'这个概念有所不同。

And the idea of damage is somewhat different in a in a digital environment.

比如当我和朋友进入某个游戏世界时，第一件事就是互相射击——这在现实中显然不会做，因为会真的伤害对方。

I mean, when I get into, you know, some world with my friends, the the first thing we start doing is shooting each other, which obviously we would not do in the physical world because you'd you'd to hurt each other.

但在游戏里，这几乎只是种乐趣，甚至在游戏大厅里也是如此。

But in in a game, that's like just a it's almost, you know, it's like just fun and and even in like the lobby of a game.

对吧？

Right?

这甚至不影响游戏进程，更像是种有趣的幽默行为。

It's like it just it's not even bearing on the game, which is kind of like a funny sort of humorous thing to do.

那么这种行为会有问题吗？

So it's like, is that is that problematic?

我认为不会，因为本质上你并没有在那个世界里造成伤害。

I don't think so because it's it's fundamentally, it's not you're not causing harm in that world.

所以问题的关键在于：我们需要弄清楚哪些在现实中有害的行为在数字世界将不再有害，因此数字世界应该有更少限制？

So I think that the part of the question that I think we need to figure out is what are the ways where things could have been harmful in the physical world that we will now be freed from that and therefore there should be fewer restrictions in the digital world?

同时数字世界可能存在新的潜在伤害方式，比如更高的匿名性。

And then there might be new ways in which there could be harm in the digital world that there weren't the case before, so there's more anonymity.

对吧？

Right?

就像你去餐厅时，所有规范都要求最后要结账。

It's, you know, when you when you show up to a, you know, a restaurant or something, it's like all the norms where you pay the bill at the end.

因为，你知道，你只有一个身份，如果你欺骗他们，那么生活就像一场重复的游戏，这对你不会有好结果。

It's because, you know, you you you have one identity and, you know, the you know, if you if you stiff them, then, like, you know, life is a repeat game, and and that's not gonna work out well for you.

但在一个可以匿名并以不同方式出现的数字世界里，我认为做好公民的动机可能会少很多，这会导致很多问题和有害行为。

But, you know, in a digital world where you can be anonymous and show up in in different ways, I think the incentive to act like a good citizen can be a lot less, and that causes a lot of issues and toxic behavior.

所以这个问题需要解决。

So that needs to get sorted out.

所以我认为在允许的范围内，你只需要看看会造成什么损害。

So I think in terms of what is allowed, I think you wanna just look at what what what are the the damages.

但还有一些与伤害无关的事情，更多是关于物理法则的可能性，而不是应该允许什么。

But then there's also other things that are not related to kind of harm, less about what should be allowed and more about what will be possible that are more about the laws of physics.

对吧？

Right?

就像如果你想亲自来看我，你得坐飞机，那需要几个小时才能到这里。

It's like if you wanted to travel to see me in person, you'd have to get on a plane and and that would, like, you know, take a few hours to get here.

而我们可以直接进入会议室，戴上这些头显，基本上就像被传送到一个感觉我们在一起的空间。

Whereas, you know, we could just jump in a conference room and, you know, put on these headsets and we're basically teleported into a space where we're, you know, it feels like we're together.

这是一种非常新颖的体验，它打破了一些以前需要违背物理法则才能聚在一起的事情，我认为这将创造很多新机会。

So that's a very novel experience that that it it breaks down some things that previously would have defied the laws of physics for what it would take to get together, and I think that that will create a lot of new opportunities.

对吧？

Right?

所以我好奇的一件事是，现在有很多关于远程工作或人们聚在一起的辩论，我认为这让我们更接近于能在不同地方工作，但感觉就像在一起。

So one of the things that I'm curious about is, you know, there are all these debates right now about remote work or people being together, and, you know, I think this gets us a lot closer to being able to work physically in different places, but actually have it feel like we're together.

所以，我认为梦想是有一天人们可以在任何地方工作，但因为感觉像在一起，所以拥有同样的机会。

So, you know, I think the the dream is that is that people will one day be able to just work wherever they want, but we'll have all the same opportunities because you'll be able to feel like you're physically together.

我认为仅凭现有的视频会议和基础技术，我们目前还未能实现这一目标，但部分构想是，随着时间的推移，借助此类技术，我们可以更接近那个愿景，这将开启大量机遇。

I think we're not there today with with with just video conferencing and the basic technologies that we have, but I think part of the idea is that with something like this, over time, you could get closer to that, and that would open up a lot of opportunities.

对吧？

Right?

因为这样一来，人们可以居住在他们想住的任何地方，同时仍能享受到与同事实际相处或仿佛共处一地的种种益处。

Because then people could live physically where they want while still being able to get the benefits of being physically or kind of feeling like you're together with people at work.

所有这些都有助于培养更多企业文化、建立更好的关系并增进信任——我认为这些都是实际问题，如果你曾与人们面对面相处过就会明白。

All the ways that that helps to build more culture and build better relationships and build trust, which I think are real issues that if you're seeing people, you know, in in in person ever.

所以，呃，我也不确定。

So, yeah, I I don't know.

我认为要从基本原理出发，全面思考像这样的技术带来的所有影响——包括积极的方面以及需要规避的风险——是非常困难的。

I think it's gonna be it's very hard from first principles to think about all the implications of of of a technology like this and, all the good and and the things that you need to mitigate.

因此我们只能尽力去设想未来的图景，突出那些将会令人惊叹的方面，并希望能减轻一些潜在的负面影响。

So you try to do your best to to kind of envision what things are gonna be like and accentuate the things that they're gonna be awesome and hopefully mitigate some of the the downside things.

但你知道，现实情况是我们将逐年逐步构建这个体系。

But you know, the reality is that we're gonna be building this out one year at a time.

这需要时间，所以我们将持续观察它的演变轨迹，以及开发者和各界人士会如何运用它。

It's gonna take a while, so we're gonna just get to see how how how it evolves and and what developers and and different folks do with it.

如果可以的话请点评一下——这可能是个非常具体的技术问题——Llama 2实在太棒了。

If you could comment, this might be a bit of a very specific technical question, but Llama two is incredible.

你们最近刚刚发布了这个模型。

It's the you've you've released it recently.

围绕它已经出现了许多令人兴奋的发展。

There's already been a lot of exciting developments around it.

对于它的发布你有什么看法，未来会有LAMA 3吗？

Is there what what's your sense about its release, and is there a LAMA three in the future?

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，我记得在我们上次一起做的播客中，我们讨论过关于开源LAMA 2的争议，我很高兴我们最终这么做了。

I mean, I think on on the last podcast that we did together, we were talking about the debate that we were having around open sourcing LAMA two, and I'm I'm I'm glad that we did.

你知道，在我看来，现阶段开源像LAMA 2这样的基础模型，其价值远大于风险。

You know, I think at this point, there's the the value of open sourcing a foundation model like LAMA two is significantly greater than than the than the risks in my view.

我们确实花了大量时间，进行了非常严格的评估和红队测试，但我非常高兴我们发布了Lama 2。

I mean, we did we spent a lot of time, took a very rigorous assessment of that and red teaming it, but I'm I'm very glad that we released Lamatu.

看到人们对它的热情反响真的很令人兴奋，它的下载量和使用量远超我的预期。

I think the reception has been it's it's just been really exciting to see how excited people have have been about it, and it's gotten way more downloads and usage than I than I I would have even expected.

我对此原本就相当乐观。

I was pretty optimistic about it.

所以这真的很棒。

So that's that's been great.

至于Lama 3，我们总是在训练新的模型。

Lama three, I mean, there's always another model that we're training.

目前的情况是，我们训练了LAMA 2，并将其作为开源模型发布。

So, I mean, it's you know, for right now, we build we we train LAMA two, and we released it as an open source model.

现在的工作重点是将它整合到众多消费者产品中，包括各种AI和我们正在开发的各类消费级产品。

And right now, the priority is building that into a bunch of the consumer products, all the different AIs and and a bunch of different products that that we're basically building as consumer products.

因为Lama 2本身并不是一个面向消费者的产品。

Because Lama two by itself, it's not a consumer product.

对吧？

Right?

它更像是一种基础设施，人们可以用它来构建各种应用。

It's more of a piece of infrastructure that people could could build things with.

所以当前的首要任务是继续微调Lama 2及其分支版本，为消费级产品做好准备——希望未来能有数亿人使用这些产品，甚至某天达到数十亿规模。

So that's been the big priority is kind of continuing to fine tune and and and kind of just get Lama two and and its and its little the branches that we've built off of it ready for consumer products that hopefully, you know, hundreds of millions of people will will enjoy using those those products in billions one day.

不过我们确实也在研发未来的基础模型，但目前还没有新进展可以透露。

But, yeah, I mean, we're we're also working on on the future foundation models, and and I don't have anything new or news news on that.

具体什么时候能完成，说实话我也不确定。

I don't know, you know, I don't know exactly when it's gonna be ready.

就像我们当初围绕Lama 2是否开源进行过辩论一样，这个新版本也需要经过类似的红队测试和安全评估流程。我希望届时也能将其开源。

I think just like we had a debate around LAMA two and open sourcing it, I think we'll we'll need to have a similar debate and process to red team this and make sure that this is safe, but and my hope is that we'll be able to to open source this next version when it's ready too.

但这个月肯定实现不了——我们离那一步还远着呢。

But but that's not that we're we're not we're not, you know, close to doing that this month.

我的意思是，这个项目目前还处于相对早期的开发阶段。

I mean, this is that's just it's a thing that we're we're still somewhat early in working on.

首先非常感谢你们开源Lama 2，并对AI领域所有激动人心的进展保持透明态度。

Well, in general, thank you so much for open sourcing Lama two and for being transparent about all the exciting developments around AI.

我觉得这为推动AI发展方向的社会讨论做出了巨大贡献。

I feel like that's contributing to a really awesome conversation about where we go with AI.

看着这些技术被整合到个性化AI系统（比如那些AI人格）中特别有趣——当人们实际与这些AI人格对话时，我们会发现各种有趣的失败案例：比如AI犯傻、跑偏方向等等。这让我们作为社会整体能共同学习：哪些行为越界了、哪些很有趣、个性化与通用化的最佳平衡点在哪里。

And, obviously, it's really interesting to see all the same kind of technology integrated into these personalized AI systems with the with the AI personas, which I think will when you put it in people's hands and they get to have conversations with these AI personas, you get to see, like, interesting failure cases, like, where the things are dumb or they go into weird directions or and we get to learn as a society together what's what's too far, what's interesting, what's fun, how how much personalization is good, how much generic is good, and we get to learn all of this.

这些可能连你们自己都预料不到。

And you probably don't know this yourself.

就是说，我们都得通过使用来摸索明白。

Like, we have to all figure it out by using it.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我们初期推出AI的部分目标，就是涵盖多样化的用例，让人们能尝试不同功能，因为我不知道哪些会受欢迎。

I mean, part of what we're trying to do with the initial AI's launch is having a diversity of different use cases just so that people can try different things because I don't know what's gonna work.

比如，人们会喜欢玩文字冒险游戏吗？还是更想要个能给帖子加段子的喜剧演员AI？或者他们想和历史人物互动？

I mean, are are people gonna like playing in the text based adventure games, or are they going to, you know, like having a comedian who who can add jokes to to threads, or they can wanna interact with historical figures?

我们做了简·奥斯汀和马可·奥勒留的AI模型，嗯。

You know, we made we made one of Jane Austen and and one of Marcus Aurelius, and Mhmm.

我很好奇效果会怎样。

I'm I'm curious to see how that goes.

我对这两个都很期待。

I'm excited for both.

嗯。

Yeah.

他可是个超级粉丝。

He's a big fan.

我期待能和他们俩都对话。

I'm excited for both to have conversations with them.

我是说，没错，而且我也很期待看到...你知道的，互联网有时候会变得有点奇怪（不知道你听说过没），但我为此鼓掌。

I mean, yeah, that's you know, and I am also excited to see, you know, the Internet, I don't know if you heard, can get kind of weird, and I applaud them for it.

所以我明白了。

So I get that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以看看他们对此反应有多奇怪，会生成什么样的梗图，应该会很有趣。

So it'd be it'd be nice to see how weird they take it, what kind of memes are generated from this.

而且我认为所有这些

And I think all of

它

it

特别是在AGI发展的早期阶段，随着我们向AGI迈进，通过大规模地玩弄这些系统并与它们互动来学习是很好的，就像你说的那样。

is, especially in these early stages of development, as we progress towards AGI, it's good to learn by by playing with those systems and interacting with them at, like, a large scale, like you said.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

我是说，这就是为什么我们要从一套基础开始，同时也在开发这个叫AI Studio的平台，它将使得随着时间的推移，任何人都能像创建其他UGC内容一样轻松地创建这类AI。

I mean, that's why well, so we're starting out with a set, and then we're also working on this platform that we call AI Studio that's gonna make it so that, you know, over time, anyone will be able to create one of these AIs almost like they create any other UGC content across the platform.

所以我对这个很期待。

So I'm I'm excited about that.

我认为在某种程度上，只有让整个社区的创造力都能自由发挥来构建东西时，我们才能看到这项技术的全部潜力。

I think that to some degree, we're not gonna see the full potential of this until you just have the full creativity of the whole community being able to build stuff.

但我们还有很多很多方面需要做好。

But there's a lot of a lot of stuff that we need to get right.

所以我很兴奋能分阶段推进这件事。

So so I'm I'm excited to take this in stages.

我不认为外面有人真的在做我们这里在做的事。

I don't I don't think anyone out there is really doing what we're doing here.

我觉得确实...嗯...

I think that there are Mhmm.

确实有人在做类似虚构或面向消费者的角色类内容，但像我们这样构建的完整度——包括虚拟形象、表现力，以及让它们能在不同应用间互动，还有中心化个人资料——要知道，我们将能在Instagram和Facebook上与用户互动。

There are people who are who are doing kind of like fictional or consumer oriented character type stuff, but the extent to which we're building it out with the, you know, avatars and expressiveness and and making it so that they can interact across, you know, all of the different apps and the the hub profiles, know, we'll be able to engage people on Instagram and Facebook.

我...我觉得这真的会非常有趣。

I I I think it's it's just it's it's gonna be really fun.

我们虽然在聊AI，但我整个对话过程都震惊于自己正在和马克·扎克伯格交谈——你人不在场，却感觉近在咫尺。

Well, I'm still so we're talking about AI, but I'm still blown away this entire time that I'm talking to Mark Zuckerberg, and you're not here, but you feel like you're here.

我有过不少独处一室与人亲密交谈的经历，此刻感觉就是那样。

I've done quite a few intimate conversations with people alone in a room, and this feels like that.

以至于我常常长时间忘记我们其实不在同一个房间。

So I keep forgetting for long stretches of time that, like, we're not in the same room.

想象未来我弹指间就能与生命中任何人实现这种体验——就像现在能随时通话获得这种二维浅层互动，但达到仿佛并肩而坐的效果...我甚至觉得我们无法预估这种能即时与任何人进行私密一对一交流的技术会如何改变世界。

And for me to imagine a future where I can, with a snap of a finger, do that with anyone in my life, the way we can just call right now and have this kind of shallow two d experience, to have this experience like we're sitting next to each other, it's like, I I don't I don't think I can I don't think we can even imagine what how that changes things where you can immediately have intimate one on one conversations with anyone?

这可能会...某种程度上甚至可能以我们无法预料的方式改变文明形态。

That's that might, like in a way, we might not even predict change civilization.

其实元宇宙的核心论点就是让人获得'身临其境'的共处感。

Well, I mean, is a lot of the thesis behind the whole metaverse is giving people the ability to feel like you're present with someone.

虽然这是我老生常谈的话题，但确实有太多层面需要消化。

I mean, this is like the main thing I talk about all the time, but I I do think that there's a lot to to process about it.

我是说，从我的角度来看，我确实是在这里的。

I mean, from my perspective, I mean, I'm definitely here.

我们只是没有身处同一个物理空间。

We're just not we're we're not physically in the same place.

这不像是在，你知道，不是在和AI对话。

It's not like you're, you know, you're not talking to an AI.

对吧？

Right?

你看，我认为真正新颖的是通过技术传递出一种近乎物理存在的感知能力。

You're, you know, this is so I I think the the thing that's novel is the ability to convey through technology a sense of almost physical presence.

所以不真实的只是我们身处同一物理空间这件事，但其他方面基本都是真实的。

So the the thing that is not physically real is is us being in the same physical place, but but kind of everything else is.

我认为这触及了一个哲学问题：现代真实世界的本质究竟是什么。

And I think that that gets to this somewhat philosophical question about what is the nature of kind of the modern real world.

我觉得这实际上是物理世界与我们所感知的存在感的结合，同时又能与我们日益丰富、强大且智能的数字世界及其创新相融合。

And I I just think that that's it it really is this combination of a physical world and the presence that we feel, but also being able to combine that with this increasingly rich and powerful and capable digital world that we have and and and all of the the innovation that's getting created there.

因此我觉得这非常令人兴奋，因为数字世界的能力正在不断提升，我们能做更多了不起的事，但物理世界如此深邃，正是我们作为物理存在的特质造就了人性。

So I I think it's super exciting because, I mean, the the digital world is just is just increasing in in its capability and our ability to do awesome things, but the physical world is so profound and that's a lot of what makes us human is is that we're we're we're physical beings.

所以我不认为我们应该逃避这点，整天只盯着屏幕。

So I don't think we wanna run away from that and just spend all day on a screen.

这也是为什么我如此重视帮助塑造和加速这些未来计算平台的发展。

And that's like, you know, it's one of the reasons why I care so much about about helping to shape and accelerate the these future computing platforms.

我只是觉得这太强大了。

I just think this is so powerful.

尽管当前版本还需要佩戴头显设备，但我认为这无疑将成为迄今为止最具人性化、最具社交属性的计算平台，这正是让我感到兴奋的地方。

And it's it's you know, even though the current version of this is like you're wearing a headset, I just think this is gonna be by far the most human and social computing platform that has ever existed, and that's what what makes me excited.

是的。

Yeah.

我想再深入探讨一下现实本质的这种变化，比如什么才是真实的，或许应该转向意识层面来思考。

I think just to linger on this kind of changing nature of reality, like, of what is real, maybe shifting it towards the sort of consciousness.

所以真实的是对事物的主观体验，这种体验让它感觉真实，而非必须身处同一物理空间——因为此刻我们感觉就像在同一个空间里。

So what is real is the subjective experience of a thing that makes it feel real versus necessarily being in the same physical space because it feels like we're in the same physical space.

没错。

Yep.

而意识层面的体验，那可能才是真正的现实，而非时空或物理层面的存在。

And that the conscious experience of it, that's probably what is real, not like that the space time, like the physics of it.

就像你实际上是在打破物理法则，转而聚焦于意识本身。

Like, you're basically breaking physics and and focusing on the consciousness.

那才是真实。

That's what's real.

只要是我脑海中正在发生的任何事。

Just whatever is going on inside my head.

但存在许多

But there are a

伴随着这种体验的社会和心理因素，这些在过去只能通过物理在场实现。

lot of social and psychological things that go along with that experience that was previously only physical presence.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这里有一种亲密感和信任感。

I think that there's like an intimacy, a trust.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你看，这种交流层次很深，因为大部分交流是非语言的，基于在这种环境中你与对方共享的表情和互动。

You know, there's a level of communication because so much of communication is nonverbal and is based on expressions that you're kind of you know, you're you're sharing with with someone when you're in this kind of environment.

而以前要实现这些，恐怕只能是我坐上飞机飞到奥斯汀，和你实际坐在同一个地方才行。

And before those things would have only been possible, you know, had, you know, I gotten on a plane and and flown to Austin and and sat, you know, physically with you in the same place.

所以我认为我们本质上是在绕过物理定律，传递能够身临其境的心理社交效益，让人感觉真的和对方在一起，这对世界上任何人都有实实在在的好处。

So I I think we're we're basically shortcutting those laws of physics and delivering the social and psychological benefits of being able to be present and and feel like you're there with another person, which have got real benefits to anyone in the world.

而且就像你说的，我觉得这将会是件意义深远的事。

And I I think that that, like you said, I mean, I think that is gonna be a very profound thing.

这其中很大部分正是元宇宙的承诺所在，也是为什么我觉得这是我们正在探索的下一个前沿领域。

And that a lot of that is, you know, that's the promise of of the metaverse and what, you know, why, you know, I I just well, I think that that's the next frontier for for what we're working on.

要知道，我开始做社交网络时它们还主要是文字形式的。

You know, I started working on social networks when they were primarily text.

在Facebook最初版本里，个人资料只有一张照片，其余都是你感兴趣的事物列表。

For the first version of Facebook, your profile, you know, you had one photo and the rest of it was like lists of things that you were interested in.

后来我们经历了以照片为主的时期，现在则处于内容以视频为主的阶段。

And and then we kind of went through the period where we're doing photos and, you know, now we're kind of in the period where most of the content is video.

但明显趋势是，随着时间推移，我们表达自我和感知世界的方式正变得越来越丰富生动。

But there's a clear trend where, you know, over time, the way that we want to express ourselves and and kind of get insight and content about the world around us gets increasingly just richer and more vivid.

在我看来，能够沉浸其中、真切感受到与身边人或所爱之人同在的能力，显然就是下一个前沿。

And I I think the ability to be immersed and feel present with the people around you or the people who you care about is, from my perspective, clearly the next frontier.

碰巧这项技术在实现上极其困难。

It just so happens that it's incredibly technologically difficult.

对吧？

Right?

这需要构建全新的计算平台和完整的软件堆栈来实现，但我觉得这正是我们公司存在的意义。

It requires building up these new computing platforms and completely new software stacks to deliver that, but I mean, I kind of feel like that's what we're here to do as a company.

我真的很喜欢你们通过对话建立的这种连接，对我来说，这种照片级的真实感实在太令人兴奋了。

Well, I really love the connection you have through the conversation, and so for me, this photorealism is really, really exciting.

我对这个未来充满期待，感谢你们正在构建这一切。

I'm I'm really excited for this future, and thank you for building it.

感谢你们，也感谢我遇到的杰出Meta团队——那些工程师们，以及在这里遇到的每一个人。

Thanks to you, and thanks to the amazing Meta teams that I've met, the the engineers, and just everybody I've met here.

感谢你们助力构建这个未来，也谢谢你，马克，能在元宇宙里和我对话。

Thank you for helping to build this future, and thank you, Mark, for talking to me inside the metaverse.

这简直让我震惊到说不出话。

This is blowing my mind.

我无法准确形容。

I can't quite express.

我真想全程监测自己的心率变化。

I would love to measure my heart rate this whole time.

要是你现在其实正坐在海滩上就太搞笑了。

It would be hilarious if you're actually, like, sitting on a beach right now.

并没有。

I'm not.

我在会议室里。

I'm in a conference room.

好的。

Okay.

呃，我在海滩上，而且没穿裤子，所以真的很抱歉，对任何在现实空间看到我的人也是。

Well, I'm at a beach, and if if and not wearing any pants, so I'm really sorry about that and for anyone else who's watching me in physical space.

总之，非常感谢你今天和我聊天。

Anyway, thank you so much for talking today.

这个这个这个真的让我大开眼界。

This is this this really blew my mind.

这是我人生中最不可思议的经历之一，谢谢你让我体验到这些。

It's of the most incredible experiences of my life, so thank you for giving that to me.

太棒了。

Awesome.

太棒了。

Awesome.

很高兴你能体验到这个，聊天总是很愉快。

Glad you got to check it out, and it's always fun to talk.

好吧。

Alright.

回头聊。

I'll catch you soon.

再见。

See you.

待会儿见。

See you later.

这真的太棒了，伙计。

This is so so amazing, man.

这太棒了。

This is so amazing.