#444 – 维加斯·柳列维丘斯：共产主义、马克思主义、纳粹主义、斯大林、毛泽东与希特勒

马克思本人某种程度上将自己定位为救世主形象，无论是普罗米修斯式的还是摩西式的，将带领人们前往应许之地。

Marx himself as kind of a positioning himself as a savior figure, whether that's a Prometheus or a Moses who will lead people to the promised land.

末日或终末时刻就是这场最终革命，它将迎来一个受祝福的终极状态，一个乌托邦，相当于世俗版本的天堂。

The apocalypse or the end times is this final revolution that will usher in blessed final state, a utopia, which is equivalent to a secular version of heaven.

工人阶级扮演着人类在寻求救赎斗争中的角色。

There's the the working class playing the role of humanity in its struggle to be redeemed.

一位又一位学者都指出了这一点。

And and scholar after scholar has has pointed this out.

莱因霍尔德·尼布尔早在1930年代就在《大西洋月刊》上发表文章，将苏联共产主义称为一种宗教。

Reinhold Niebuhr, back in the nineteen thirties, had an article in the Atlantic magazine that talked about The Soviet Union's communism as a religion.

埃里克·弗格林，这位德裔美国学者逃离纳粹后迁往路易斯安那州立大学，撰写了大量关于现代时期政治宗教新现象的著作。

Erik Fuegelen, a German American scholar who fled the Nazis and relocated to Louisiana State University wrote tomes about the new phenomenon of political religions in the modern period.

他认为法西斯主义、纳粹主义以及苏联共产主义都带有政治宗教的印记，即这些意识形态所承诺的，在前人看来本应属于宗教范畴。

And he saw fascism and Nazism and the so and and Soviet communism as as bearing the stamp of of political religions, meaning ideologies that promised what an earlier age would have understood in religious terms.

费迪南德将此称为'末世'，并说这些终末时刻所承诺的末世，正在此时此地变得迫在眉睫。

Ferdinand called this the eschaton and said that these end times, the eschaton was being promised in the here and now, being made imminent.

他对此发出警告，称结果很可能是灾难性的。

And he warned against that, saying the results are likely to be disastrous.

所以这实际上是对一种观点的反驳——人们有时会说苏联是无神论社会的范例。

So that's actually a disagreement with this idea that, you know, people sometimes say that the Soviet Union is an example of an atheistic society.

也就是说，当无神论成为支撑社会的主要思想时，就会出现这种情况。

So when you have atheism as the primary thing that underpins the society, this is what you get.

所以你的观点其实是对这种说法的否定，认为共产主义具有强烈的宗教成分。

So that's what you're saying is a kind of rejection of that, saying that there's a strong religious component to communism.

一种隐性成分？

A hidden component?

官方不予承认的成分？

One that's not officially recognized?

我想说...我确实亲眼见证过这一点。

I mean, I I think that, you know, I had a chance to witness this, actually.

我童年时，全家住在芝加哥，我们是立陶宛裔美国家庭。

When I was a child, my family I grew up in Chicago to a Lithuanian American family.

我父亲是位数学家，他获得了一个非常难得的邀请，前往苏联立陶宛的维尔纽斯大学与同行会面。

And my father, who was a mathematician, got a very rare invitation to travel to Soviet Lithuania to the University of Vilnius to meet with colleagues.

在当时，美国人前往苏联超过几天或一周的旅程是非常罕见的。

And at this point, journeys of more than a few days or a week were very rare to the Soviet Union for Americans.

结果就是，我在勃列日涅夫时代访问苏联时，经历了一些难忘的事情。

And result was that I had unforgettable experiences visiting the Soviet Union in Brezhnev's day.

我在那里看到的事物中，有一个无神论博物馆，它建在一座从内部被拆毁的教堂里，旨在体现官方的无神论立场。

And among the things I saw there was a museum of atheism that had been established in a church that had been ripped apart from inside and was meant to kind of embody the official stance of atheism.

我记得当时对博物馆内部感到困惑，因为你期待看到展品。

And I remember being baffled by the museum on the inside because you would expect exhibits.

你会期待一些戏剧性的、引人注目的东西。

You would expect something dramatic, something that will be compelling.

然而，里面只有一些来自乡村的民间艺术，展示着过去的信仰。

And instead, there were there was some folk art from the countryside showing bygone beliefs.

还有一些关于西班牙宗教裁判所及其暴行的石版画或版画，基本上就这些了。

There were some lithographs or engravings of the Spanish Inquisition and its horrors, and that was pretty much it.

但作为一个孩子，我记得在那个博物馆里因为没穿防风外套而是把它搭在手臂上而受到责备，这在无神论官方博物馆里是非常不敬的行为。

But as a child, I remember being reproved in that museum for not wearing my windbreaker, but instead carrying it on my arm, which was a very disrespectful thing to do in an official museum of atheism.

当我在1989年有机会再次访问苏联参加语言课程时，我们参加的必修行程之一就是恭敬地列队经过红场克里姆林宫外列宁墓中的列宁遗体。

When I was able to visit the Soviet Union later for a language course in the 1989, one of the obligatory tours that we took was to file reverently past the body of Lenin outside the Kremlin in a mausoleum at Red Square.

而像列宁这样的共产主义木乃伊——早些时候斯大林也曾安放在那里——实际上，我认为像毛泽东或胡志明这样的共产主义木乃伊，体现了对早期宗教情感的融合，对伟大人物近乎圣徒般遗物的崇敬，以至于即使被宣称是无神论，最终也变成了一种要求极高的信仰。

And communist mummies, like those of Lenin, earlier Stalin had been there as well, Communist mummies like Mao or Ho Chi Minh really, I think, speak to a blending of earlier religious sensibility, reverence for relics of great figures, almost saintly figures, so that even what got proclaimed as atheism turned out to be a very demanding faith as well.

我认为这是其他学者也指出过的矛盾。

And I think that's a contradiction that that other scholars have pointed out as well.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是个非常复杂的讨论。

It's a very complicated sort of discussion.

当你将宗教从社会的重要组成中移除时，是否会出现用宗教方式框定政治意识形态这样的自然结果。

When you remove religion as a as a big component of a society, whether something like a framing of political ideologies in religious ways is the natural consequence of that.

我们常说自然厌恶真空，我认为人性中有某些部分渴望超验的解释，对吧？

We hear nature abhorring a vacuum, and I think that there are there are places in human character that long for transcendental explanations, right?

并非一切都是毫无意义的。

That it's not all meaningless.

事实上，存在着更宏大的目标。

In fact, there's a larger purpose.

我认为这并非巧合：对共产主义政权的重大抵抗部分来源于一方面宗教信仰者，另一方面则来自那些理想幻灭的真正共产主义信徒，他们内心经历着一种厌恶感，发现自己的理想并未得到贯彻。

I think it's not a coincidence that such a significant part of resistance to communist regimes has in part come from, on the one hand, religious believers, and on the other hand, from disillusioned true believers in communism who find themselves undergoing an internal experience of just a revulsion, finding that their ideals are have not been followed through on.

因此，这个话题是你精辟描述的马克思思想内部若干矛盾之一。

So this topic is one of several topics that you eloquently describe as contradictions within the ideas of Marx.

宗教方面，既有某种宗教式的忠诚，也有他所代表的宗教教条的排斥。

So religious, there is a kind of religious adherence versus also the rejection of religious dogma that he stood for.

我们讨论过其他一些矛盾，比如实施时出现的民族主义与共产主义本应具备的全球性（即全球主义）之间的张力。

We've talked about some of the others, the the tension between nationalism that emerged when it was implemented versus what communism is supposed to be, which is global, so globalism.

还有我们最初讨论的个人主义问题。

Then there's the thing that we started talking with is individualism.

你看，历史本应由广大人类集体定义，但似乎确实存在包括马克思本人在内的这些极其重要的单一人物。

So, you know, history is supposed to be defined by the large collection of humans, but there does seem to be these singular figures, including Marx himself, that are, like, really important.

全球性与局限于特定国家的地理因素，以及传统——本应与过去决裂的传统，是的。

Geography of global versus restricted to certain countries, and, you know, tradition, sort of you're supposed to break with the past Yeah.

还有共产主义。

And communism.

但后来马克思主义却成为了最强大的传统之一，确实如此。

But then Marxism became one of the strongest traditions That's right.

在历史上。

In history.

没错。

That's right.

确实如此。

That's right.

我认为最后一点尤为重要，因为它极具悖论性。

I think that the that last one is is especially significant because it's it's deeply paradoxical.

我的意思是，试图梳理这些矛盾，实际上是在用马克思分析他人的方式来分析马克思本人——即指出那些本应坚不可摧、持久有效的框架中可能成为压力点或裂痕的内在矛盾。

I mean, trying to outline these contradictions, by the way, is like subjecting Marx to a the sort of analysis that Marx subjected other people to, which is to point out internal contradictions, things that are likely to to become pressure points or cracks that might open up in what's supposed to be completely set and durable and effective framework.

关于传统这一点，马克思指出革命的需要正是为了打破那些束缚人们的传统，那些早期的思维方式和社会结构，以实现持续革新。

The one about tradition, you know, Marx points out that the need for revolution is in order to break with the traditions that have hemmed people in, this earlier ways of thinking, earlier social structures, to constantly renovate.

然而实际发生的却是一种激进断裂传统的形成，这非常棘手，想象一下苏联最后阶段，敏锐的观察者能察觉到社会正在积累问题。

And what happens instead is a tradition of radical rupture emerges, and that's really tough because imagine the last stages of the Soviet Union where keen observers can tell that there are problems that are building in society.

存在着不满情绪和即将爆发的诉求，特别是当戈尔巴乔夫这样的人提出改革，各种议题突然被开放讨论时。

There are discontents and demands that are going to clash, especially when someone like Gorbachev is proposing reforms and things are suddenly thrown open for discussion.

在国家想要强制维持稳定和继承自上一代的秩序时，却仍在歌颂革命者和布尔什维克遗产，这种概念本身就充满矛盾。

The very notion that you have the celebration of revolutionaries and the Bolshevik legacy at a time when the state wants to enforce stability and an order that's been received from the prior generation.

以勃列日涅夫时期为例。

Think of Brezhnev's time, for instance.

所有这些因素混合在一起特别不稳定，长期来看很难持久维持。

All of that is an especially volatile mix and unlikely to work out very durably in the long run.

我很想讨论马克思的著作，《共产党宣言》和《资本论》。

I would love to sort of, talk about the works, of Marx, The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.

关于他思想在纸面上的呈现，我们能说些什么有趣的观点呢？

What can we say that's interesting about the manifestation of his ideas on paper?

首先，显而易见的是，这两部作品截然不同。

Well, the first thing to note, obviously, is that those two works are very different.

《资本论》是一部卷帙浩繁的巨著，马克思不断修订，最终只出版了第一卷，因为恩格斯恳求他停止修改。

Das Kapital is an enormous multi volume work that that Marx worked at and only got the first volume out because Engels begged him to stop revising.

请务必让它最终付印出版。

Please just finally get it into press.

而其余部分，恩格斯不得不在马克思去世后根据笔记重新整理完成。

And then the rest, Engels had to actually reconstruct out of notes after Marx passed away.

这是一部鸿篇巨制。

It's a huge work.

相比之下，《共产党宣言》虽篇幅短小，却影响了全球数百万人的生活，尽管它相对简洁。

By contrast, the Communist Manifesto is a brief pamphlet that ended up affecting the lives of many millions worldwide in spite of its comparative brevity.

此外，《共产党宣言》还具有某种延迟引爆的特性，可以这么说。

The communist manifesto, moreover, is also something of the nature of having a delayed fuse, you could say.

因为当它最初出现在1848年席卷欧洲的革命浪潮中时，与人们通常的认知相反。

Because when it first appears amid the revolutions of eighteen forty eight that sweep across Europe, the work is contrary to what people often believe.

这本小册子并未引发1848年的革命，那些革命大多源于民族或自由主义诉求。

That pamphlet did not cause the revolutions of eighteen forty eight, many of which had national or liberal demands.

马克思和恩格斯的声音在当时更为显赫的喧嚣中几乎无人听闻。

The voice of Marx and Engels was barely to be heard over the din of other far more prominent actors.

然而正是在革命余波中，这部著作获得了巨大意义，开始被广泛阅读和传播。

It is, however, in the aftermath that this work takes on tremendous significance and becomes popularly read and properly distributed.

特别是1871年巴黎公社那段血腥历史，虽非完全受马克思思想启发，也非所有公社成员都是马克思主义者，却与马克思产生了深刻关联。

It's especially the the episode, the the bloody episode of the Paris Commune in 1871, which comes to be identified with Marx, even though it was not purely inspired by Marx alone, nor were all of the communards devoted Marxists.

正是这场著名（或恶名昭著）的城市暴动事件的确立，使马克思声名远扬并引发对其著作的关注。

It's the identification of this famous or infamous episode in urban upheaval that really leads to worldwide notoriety for Marx and attention to those works.

它们在形式上截然不同。

And they're very different in form.

《资本论》旨在成为经济思想领域的《物种起源》，凝聚了马克思在大英博物馆图书馆经年累月的研究成果——他通过统计数据，逐步构建出对重大历史问题的宏大解答。

Das Kapital is intended to be the origin of species of its realm of economic thought and and represents years and years of work of of Marx laboring in the British Museum library, working through statistics, working on little bits and pieces of a larger answer to big historical questions that he believes that he's arrived at.

其基调与《共产党宣言》截然不同，后者更像是一篇战斗檄文。

Its tone is different from that of The Communist Manifesto, which is a call to arms.

它信心十足地宣告历史的走向，但与其说答案是消极等待历史按预定剧本上演，不如说这是一声让革命发生的号角，旨在务实阐述革命将如何展开，并以那句著名的'一个幽灵'开篇

It announces with great confidence what the scheme of history will be, But rather than urging that the answer might be passivity and just waiting for history to play out in preordained way, it's also a clarion call to make the revolution happen and is intended to be a pragmatic, practical statement of of how this is to to play out and, you know, starts in part with those ringing words about a ghost or a

一个在欧洲游荡的幽灵，共产主义的幽灵——这在当时虽不属实，但数十年后确凿无疑成为了现实

specter haunting Europe, the specter of communism, which wasn't true at the time, but decades later, most definitely is the case.

你能否谈谈马克思主义经济学与马克思主义政治意识形态的区别？

Is there something you could say about the difference between Marxian economics and Marxist political ideology?

也就是政治层面与经济学层面的区别

So the political side of things and the economics side of things.

我认为马克思可能会回应说，这两者实际上是密不可分的

So I I think that Marx would probably have responded that, in fact, those things are indivisible.

纯理论的分析当然可以适用于任何经济现实，但从这种经济分析中产生的必然要求却是政治性的

The analysis as sort of purely theoretical certainly can be performed on any economic reality that you care to mention, but the imperatives that grow out of that economic analysis are political.

马克思和恩格斯强调理论与实践的统一

Marx and Engels emphasize the unity of theory and practice.

因此仅作冷静分析是不够的

So it's not enough to dispassionately analyze.

这同时也是一声行动号角，因为如果你已经揭示了历史演变与变革的答案，你就肩负着责任。

It's a call to action as well because if you've delivered the answer to how history evolves and changes, it obligates you.

对吧？

Right?

它要求采取特定行动。

It demands certain action.

你有时会听到大学生说，他们的高中历史老师告诉他们马克思主义只是一种理论建构，是某个与世隔绝的哲学家空想出来的产物，本就不该付诸实践。

You sometimes hear from undergraduates that they've heard from their high school history teachers that Marxism was just a theoretical construct that was in the idle production of a philosopher who was not connected to the world and was never meant to be tried in practice.

马克思若听到这种说法定会暴怒，这种历史论断简直错得离谱——因为马克思坚持认为过往哲学家都只是在解释现实。

Marx would have been furious to hear this, and it's almost heroically wrong as a historical statement because Marx insisted that all previous philosophers have theorized about reality.

而现在真正需要的是改变现实。

What now is really necessary is to change it.

所以抽象地说，马克思主义经济学家当然可以用马克思的理论框架来对照特定经济现实，但马克思会认为这种做法不完整且令人深感不满。

So you could say that in the abstract, a Marxist economist can certainly use Marx's theoretical framework to compare to a given economic reality, but Marx would have seen that as incomplete and as deeply unsatisfactory.

这一切还有个注脚：尽管马克思主义辩证唯物主义植根于这些经济现实，政治处方本应从经济现实中自然产生并必然由此发展而来。

There's kind of a footnote to all of this, which is that even though Marxist dialectical materialism grounds itself in these economic realities, and the political prescription is supposed to flow from the economic realities and and and be inevitably growing out of them.

在共产主义政权的真实历史中，实际上可以看到经济与政治脱钩的时期。

In the real history of communist regimes, you've actually seen periods where the economics becomes detached from the politics.

我特别想到苏联历史早期的新经济政策时期，当时列宁意识到经济已严重恶化，必须有限度地重新引入或允许某些私营企业元素，才能让俄罗斯重回正轨，积累建设社会主义项目所必需的剩余价值。

I'm thinking in particular of the new economic period early in the history of the Soviet Union when Lenin realizes that the economy is so far gone that you need to reintroduce or allow in a limited way some elements of private enterprise just to start getting Russia back on course in order to have the accumulation of surplus that will be necessary to build the project at all.

许多布尔什维克将新经济政策视为可怕的妥协和对理想的背叛，但这被视为短期必要之举，而斯大林后来会彻底废除它。

And that's there are many Bolsheviks who see the new economic program as a new economic policy as a terrible compromise and and a betrayal of of their ideas, but it's it's seen as necessary for a short while, and then Stalin will will wreck it entirely.

或者以当今中国为例，执政的中国共产党在保持政治控制的前提下，允许经济发展和私营企业存在。

Or consider for that matter, China today, where you have a a dominant political class, the communist party of China, which is allowing economic development, and private enterprise as long as it retains political control.

这些现象某种程度上已偏离了马克思的预期，这指向了共产主义历史中一个关键问题。

So some of these elements already represent divergences from what Marx would have expected, and this is this points to a really key problem or question for all of the history of communism.

这与它身不由己地成为一种传统有关。

It has to do with it being a tradition in spite of itself.

这个问题可以用以下方式表述：

And that could be expressed in the following way.

最初的思想体系终将演变发展。

An original set of ideas is going to evolve.

它会因为环境的变化而改变。

It's going to change because circumstances change.

任何教义的细化，无论是共产主义、宗教教义还是政治意识形态，哪些细化是任何活的思想体系演变的自然阶段？

What elaborations of any doctrine, whether it's communism or a religious doctrine or any political ideology, what elaborations are natural stages in the evolution of any living set of ideas?

或者，当你达到某个转折点，某种转变或适应变得如此截然不同，以至于实际上与传统决裂。

Or, when you reach the point where some shift or some adaptation is so radically different that it actually breaks with the tradition.

这是个无法解决的问题。

And that's an insoluble problem.

你可能需要具体情况具体分析。

You probably have to take it on a case by case basis.

这涉及到类似今天被提出的问题。

It speaks to issues like the question that gets raised today.

中国在真正意义上还是一个共产主义国家吗？

Is China, in a meaningful sense, a communist country anymore?

在这个问题上存在不同的观点。

And there's a there's a diversity of opinion on this score.

或者，如果你审视共产主义历史，看看现在的朝鲜——它已经由同一个家族的第三代世袭领导人统治，这位像神王一样统治着一个自称共产主义的政权——这还算是一种共产主义吗？

Or, you know, if you're looking at the history of communism and you look at North Korea, which now is on its third installment of a dynastic leader from the same family who rules like a god king over a regime that calls itself communist, is that still a form of communism?

这是一种演进吗？

Is it an evolution of?

还是一种彻底的背离？

Is it a complete reversal of?

我倾向于从人类学视角来看待共产主义历史，并认真对待那些自称共产主义者、并正在推进这一事业的人们。

I tend to want to take an anthropological perspective in the history of communism and to take very seriously those people who avow that they are communists, and this is the project that they have underway.

听完这番宣言后，作为一名历史学者，我认为我们必须说：让我们看看具体细节。

And then, after hearing that avowal, I think as a historian, you have to say, well, let's look at the details.

让我们看看发生了哪些变化，哪些连续性依然存在，是否能从中辨识出某种更大的模式。

Let's see what changes have been made, what continuities might still exist, whether there's a larger pattern to be discerned here.

所以我们正在讨论的是一段极其复杂的历史。

So it's a very, very complicated history that we're talking about.

让我们回溯到十九世纪末二十世纪初，先为共产主义立场构建一个最强有力的论证框架。

Let's step back to the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century, and let's steel man the case for communism.

让我们设身处地站在当时人们的立场上，而不是以我们如今回顾二十世纪历史的方式来看待问题。

Let's put ourselves in the shoes of the people there, not in this way we can we can look back at what happened in the twentieth century.

为什么这个理念如此具有吸引力？

Why was this such a compelling notion Yeah.

对数百万民众而言？

For millions of people?

我们能否为此提出论据？

Can we make the case for it?

显然，这个理念对数百万民众而言极具说服力。

Well, clearly, it was a compelling case for millions of people.

这部分历史与整体信仰、信念密不可分，关乎人们甘愿为自认不仅正当且要求绝对服从的事业，牺牲自我乃至同胞的故事。

And and part of this story has to do with overall, has to do with the faith, conviction, stories of of people sacrificing themselves as well as their countrymen in a cause that they believed was not just legitimate, but demanded their total obedience.

我认为在整个二十世纪初期（即十九世纪末至二十世纪初），共产主义之所以具有强大吸引力，很大程度上源于西方社会对科学的普遍信赖——这种认为科学能解决问题的观念。

I think that throughout the early part of the twentieth century, late nineteenth century, early part of the twentieth century, so much of the compelling case for communism came from the confidence that people in the West more generally placed in science, the notion that science is answering problems.

科学正在为我们解答周遭世界的运行规律，以及如何改善这个世界。

Science is giving us solutions to how the world around us works, how the world around us can be improved.

其中某些所谓的'科学'（我加了引号）简直荒谬，对吧？

Some varieties of that and I watch the quotation marks science were crazy, right?

比如颅相学，那种所谓的科学种族主义，试图将人类划分为不同群体，并以所谓科学或理性的方式操控他们。

Like phrenology, so called scientific racism that tried to divide humanity up into discrete blocks and to manipulate them in ways that were allegedly scientific or rational.

这些对科学的滥用确实导致了可怕的后果，但当时科学的威望是巨大的。

So there were horrors that followed from those invocations of science, but its prestige was enormous.

这部分原因与宗教思想对知识精英影响力的减弱有关，更广泛地说，是世俗化进程——并非完全世俗化，而是西方工业社会中逐渐世俗化的趋势。

And that in part had to do with the lessening grip of religious ideas on intellectual elites, more generally processes of secularization, not total secularization, but but processes of secularization in in Western industrial societies.

这种学说被认为能让人逃离资本主义竞争引发的战争，摆脱资本主义竞争导致的经济周期萧条和贫困，改变等级森严的阶级社会不平等。而这种自诩为尖端科学的说法，我认为，让列宁等人对其提出的未来方案充满信心。

And the sense that here's a doctrine that will allow escape from wars brought on by capitalist competition, poverty and economic cycles and depressions brought on by capitalist competition, the inequalities of societies that remain hierarchical and class based, And this claim to being cutting edge science, I think, allows people like Lenin to derive immense confidence in the prescription that they have for the future.

矛盾的是，这种对宏观上正确解决路径的自信，也让人在战术策略上可以肆意妄为——只要最终目标仍符合这个宏伟蓝图。

And that paradoxically, the confidence that you have in broad strokes, the right set of answers for how to get to the future, also allows you to take huge liberties with the tactics and the strategies that you follow as long as your ultimate goal remains the one sketched by this master plan.

所以最终，像列宁这样的预言——一旦社会进入无产阶级专政阶段，政府基本上就能自行运作——

So ultimately, some of the predictions of someone like Lenin that once society has reached that stage of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the notion that governments will essentially be able to run themselves.

而他心中想到的模型，说来奇怪，竟然是瑞士的邮政系统。

And the model he had in mind, oddly enough, was Swiss post offices.

瑞士的流亡经历一定给他留下了深刻印象，让他对瑞士邮局的有条不紊、纪律严明和高度理性赞叹不已。

Being in Swiss exile must have impressed him so much with the orderliness and the sheer discipline and rationality of a Swiss post office.

他当时就在想，为什么不能这样组织政府呢？不需要政治领袖，也不需要宏伟愿景。

And he thought, why can't you organize governments like this where you don't need political leaders, you don't need grand visions?

只要有流程就够了。

You have procedures.

有官僚体系，它能以不异化的方式完成工作，简单地实现最大的善。

You have bureaucracy, which does its job in a way that's not alienating but simply produces the the greatest good.

要知道，当你想到二十世纪官僚主义的种种经历时，简直让人毛骨悚然。

You know, when you think of the experiences with bureaucracy in the twentieth century, one's hair stands on end.

这种预测展现出的相对天真，其实源于那种确信——一切都会好起来的，因为我们掌握了关键，我们拥有通往人类最终形态的计划蓝图。

To have, you know, the the the comparative naivete, on display with a prediction like that, but it derives from that confidence that it's all gonna be okay because we understand, we have the key, we have the plan to how to arrive, at this this, this final configuration of humanity.

是啊。

Yeah.

这种带引号的'科学'确定性，加上乌托邦的目标，往往会让人陷入困境。

The certainty of science, in quotes, and the goal of utopia gets you in trouble.

但从人性层面而言，从一个工人阶级的视角来看

But also, just on the human level, from a from a working class person perspective.

从工业革命开始，你看到日益加剧的不平等，财富不平等

From the industrial revolution, you see the growing inequality, wealth inequality.

你会看到有人变得富有，而与此同时生活本身就很艰难，对大多数人来说生活就是苦难，如果你听某些哲学家的说法，对所有人都是如此

And there is a kind of you see people getting wealthy, and combined with the fact that life is difficult, life in general, life is suffering for many, for most, for all, if you listen to some philosophers.

这其中蕴含着一种强烈的观念：有人在剥削我

And there is kind of a a powerful idea in that the man is exploiting me.

这是一种能引起广泛共鸣的民粹主义论调，因为在某种程度上，这在任何体制下都是事实

And that's a populous message that a lot of people resonate with, because to a degree it's true in every system.

因此，在你真正了解这些经济和政治理念如何具体呈现之前，宣称'在地平线之外存在一个富人不再剥削我劳动的世界'是极具煽动性的

And so before you kind of know how these economic and political ideas manifest themselves, it is really powerful to say, here beyond the horizon, there's a world where the rich man will not exploit my hard work anymore.

我认为这是个非常强有力的理念

And I think that's a really powerful idea.

确实如此

It is.

不过与此同时，这也指向了一个更深层的问题——革命者的身份问题。

I At the same time though, it kind of points to a further problem, and that's the identity of the revolutionaries.

事实证明，许多革命运动以及苏联夺权后建立的共产主义国家精英阶层，与那些亲身经历工业革命、在工厂度过一生的工人群体截然不同。

It turned out that many of these revolutionary movements and then the founding elites of communist countries in the aftermath of the Soviet seizure of power turn out to be something quite different from people who have spent their lives in factories experiencing the industrial revolution firsthand.

我的意思是，知识分子在这里扮演着特殊角色。

I mean, there's a special role here for intellectuals.

当马克思和恩格斯在《共产党宣言》中写道：某些特殊个体能够超越阶级出身，摆脱物质决定的角色桎梏，从而获得对历史进程的整体视角，并与工人阶级及其共产主义斗争结盟——这种他们为自己量身打造的特殊角色对知识分子极具吸引力，因为任何将知识分子誉为世界推动者的论述都会令知识分子心驰神往。

And when Marx and Engels write into the Communist Manifesto, the notion that certain exceptional individuals can rise above their class origins in a way other people can't and transcend their earlier role, their their materially determined role, in order to gain a perspective on the historical process as a whole and ally themselves with the working class and its struggle for communism, this sort of special role that they carved out for themselves is enormously appealing for intellectuals, because any celebration of intellectuals as world movers is going to appeal to intellectuals.

这种与共产主义声称要代表的阶级脱节的现实差距，成为贯穿这段历史的常见主题。

That gap, that that frequent reality of not being in touch with the very classes that the communists are aiming to represent is is a very frequent theme in in this story.

这也揭示了故事的关键部分：分裂与内战，兄弟阋墙的悲剧，导致社会主义阵营与马克思主义追随者割席的同胞相争。

It also speaks to a crucial part of this story, which is the breaking apart or the civil war, the war of brother against brother, the fraternal struggle that splits socialism and splits followers of Marx.

特别是在第一次世界大战后的创伤时期，列宁鼓动建立激进政党与社会民主党决裂——尤其是德国等地的温和派——他蔑视其改良主义，宣布要以列宁主义理念打造纪律严明、专业硬核的革命先锋队，其行动力绝非普通工会运动可比。

And that's in the aftermath of the First World War in particular, or during this traumatic experience, the way in which Lenin encourages the foundation of radical parties that will break with social democracy of the sort that had been elaborated, especially in places like Germany, scorning their moderation and instead announcing a new dispensation, which was the Leninist conception of a disciplined, hardcore, professional revolutionaries who will act in ways that a mere trade union movement couldn't.

这揭示了激进运动的根本矛盾：列宁指出，若任其自然发展，工人往往只关注自身现实——家庭、职场、改善工作条件，通过工会与雇主谈判或推动国家改革来提升生活水平。

And what this speaks to is a fundamental tension in radical movements because left to their own devices, Lenin announces, workers tend to focus on their reality, their families, their workplace, want better working conditions, unionize, and then aim to negotiate with employers or to agitate for reforms on the part of the state to improve their living conditions.

然后他们就会为自己取得的进步感到高兴。

And then they're happy for the advances that they have won.

而对列宁来说，这远远不够，因为这只是一半的措施。

And for Lenin, that's not enough because that's a half measure.

这种做法只会让你与体制妥协，而非推翻体制。

That's the sort of thing that leads you into an accommodation with the system rather than the overthrow of the system.

因此在这方面存在着一种长期持续的张力。

So there's a real there's a constant tension in in in this regard that plays itself out over the long haul.

那么让我们转向列宁和俄国革命的话题。

So let's go to, Lenin and the Russian revolution.

共产主义是如何在苏联掌权的？

How did, communism come to power in the Soviet Union?

它是通过填补权力真空而掌权的。

It came to power as a result of stepping into a power vacuum.

这个权力真空是由第一次世界大战造成的，这场总体战对沙皇政权施加了前所未有的压力——这个在许多方面仍是传统封建君主制的政权，当时才刚刚开始经历欧洲其他国家早已完成的现代化进程。

And the power vacuum was created by the First World War and it's the the effect that it had as a total war, unprecedented pressure placed on a regime that in many ways was a a traditional, almost feudal monarchy, only experiencing the beginnings of the modernization that the rest of Europe had undergone.

正因如此，共产主义在一个马克思可能未曾预料的地方——俄罗斯帝国的废墟中夺取了政权。

And for this reason, communism comes to power in a place that Marx probably wouldn't have expected in the wreckage wreckage of the Russian empire.

列宁在这一进程中至关重要，因为正是他推动着革命进程前进。

Lenin is absolutely vital to this equation because he's the one who presses the process forward.

颇具讽刺意味的是，尽管共产党领导人声称掌握历史的关键，但就在几个月前流亡瑞士期间，列宁还处于绝望之中，甚至认为自己可能活不到革命胜利的那一天。

Ironically, given the claim of communist leaders to having the key to history just a few months previous in exile in Switzerland, Lenin had been despairing and had been convinced that he's not may not even live to see the advent of that day.

然而当1917年2月俄国爆发革命时，列宁不顾一切地急于回国。

But then when revolution does break out in the Russian empire in February 1917, Lenin is absolutely frantic to get back.

通过与德国最高指挥部达成的协议（这一决定日后让他们追悔莫及），列宁得以回国立即采取行动，全力推动夺取政权的斗争，最终使其布尔什维克派——社会主义运动中的激进翼掌权，并随后建立了苏联。

And when he does get back, as a result of a deal that is negotiated with the German high command, a step that they'll later live very much to regret, he is able to get back and to go into action and to press for nothing less than the seizure of power that brings his Bolshevik faction, the radical wing of the socialist movement to power in and then to build the Soviet Union.

这么说连他自己都对革命如此迅速有效感到意外？

So even he was surprised how effective and how fast the revolution happened?

确实如此。

He was.

不过，我认为他

Although, I think that he

他本应会认同，要使这一切发生，需要一场如第一次世界大战般规模的剧变。

would have have agreed that what was necessary was a cataclysm on the scale of the First World War to make this happen.

第一次世界大战粉碎了我们之前讨论的十九世纪作为意识形态争论活跃时期的诸多确定性。

The First World War shatters so many of the certainties of the nineteenth century that we talked about as dynamic period with argument between ideologies.

它彻底打乱了早期的各种辩论格局。

It scrambles all sorts of earlier debates.

这场战争重新定义了个人与全能国家之间的地位关系，以及国家权力的主张——因为要赢得甚至仅仅是在一战中生存下来，各国都需要不断集权、集权、再集权，将一切置于专制化的战时体制之下。

It renegotiates the status of the individual versus an all powerful state and the claims of the state because to win or even just to survive in World War I, you need to centralize, centralize, centralize, and to put everything onto authoritarian wartime footing in country after country.

列宁早先通过论述全球已然互联的观点，已经预见了这种可能性。

So Lenin earlier had already articulated the possibility that this might happen by talking about how the entire globe already was connected.

资本主义发展形成了一条连接各国的链条，而链条中最薄弱的环节一旦断裂，就可能引发更宏大的进程，启动连锁反应。

And there's a chain of capitalist development that is connecting different countries so that the weakest link in the chain, if it breaks, if it pops open, it might actually inaugurate much bigger processes and start a chain reaction.

这也正是他意图在1917年抓住机会实现的目标。

And that's what he intended to do and has the chance to do in the course of 1917.

顺便提一句，这让我们得以从个体层面感知当时绝对的混乱状态——既有权威缺失对人类意味着什么。

Incidentally, just to get a sense of the sheer chaos and the human, on an individual human level, what the absence of established authority meant.

很少有文学作品能像鲍里斯·帕斯捷尔纳克的《日瓦戈医生》那样有力地展现权力真空下各种对抗势力的全景。

There's few works of literature that are as powerful as Boris Pasternak's Doctor.

这部作品是对那个时代和地域的绝佳见证。

Zhivago for giving the whole sweep of contending forces in a power vacuum.

它是对那段历史与地域的惊人见证。

It's an amazing testimony to that time and place.

所以你提到布尔什维克认为暴力和恐怖是必要手段。

So you said that Bolsheviks saw violence and terror as necessary.

能否请你谈谈他们这方面的观点，因为他们夺取了政权，这成为他们世界观的一部分。

So can you just speak to this aspect of their because they took power, and and so this was a part of the way they saw the world.

没错。

Right.

而且这种思想有其历史渊源。

And it had antecedents.

尽管列宁及其同僚彼此争夺'马克思最忠实门徒'和'最忠实实践理论'的头衔，但在俄罗斯语境下还存在其他早期影响因素，这些因素在德国语境中并不存在。

Even though Lenin and his colleagues are competing amongst each other for the title of most faithful disciple of Marx and most true to the received theory in practice, there's other influences, earlier influences that operate in the Russian context that were not operative, let's say, in the German context.

这里我们必须退一步思考沙皇制度的本质，它直到二十世纪仍坚持君权神授的观念，认为上帝钦定了沙皇体系及其等级制度，质疑这些就是亵渎神明且在政治上不明智。

And here you have to step back and think about the nature of tsarism, which had maintained still into the twentieth century the notion of a divine right to rule, that God had ordained the Tsarist system and its hierarchies, and that to question these was sinful and politically not advisable.

当时俄罗斯社会的封闭性完全被沙皇体制所主导。

And the restrictive nature of Russian society at this point dominated by the Tsarist establishment.

其严酷性与反动性意味着，在其他国家可能成为改革者的人，在这里极易被激化为革命者。

Its harshness, its reactionary nature meant that people who in another context, in another country might have been reformers, could instead very easily be provoked into becoming revolutionaries.

列宁就是绝佳例证——他的兄长因参与激进革命运动被捕，并以恐怖主义关联罪名被处决。

Lenin is a perfect example of this because his older brother was executed as a result of being in a radical revolutionary movement that was who was arrested and executed for association with terrorism.

更早一代的俄罗斯激进分子建立了民粹主义团体，旨在通过恐怖活动和抵抗对抗沙皇政权。

And earlier generations of Russian radicals had founded populist groups that would aim to engage in terrorism and resistance against the Tatarist regime.

其中包括自称虚无主义者的人们。

And this included people who called themselves nihilists.

这些虚无主义者是唯物主义者，他们通过彻底否定宗教传统、寻求现实解决方案来开创新时代。

And these nihilists were materialists who saw themselves ushering in a new age by absolute rejection of earlier religious traditions and aiming for material answers to the challenges of the day.

其中就包括尼古拉·车尔尼雪夫斯基，他创作了被称为史上最糟糕的小说。

Among them was Nikolay Chernyshevsky, who wrote what's been called the worst book ever written.

事实上，这是列宁最喜爱的书籍之一。

It was, in fact, one of Lenin's favorite books.

在俄语中，这本书名为《Что делать?》。

In Russian, it's Stodielat.

英文译本将其译为《怎么办？》。

In English, it gets translated, what is to be done?

这是一部关于革命者的乌托邦小说，讲述了革命者应如何以开放、新颖、非传统的方式相互协作，以推动即将到来的革命。

And it's a utopian novel about revolutionaries and how revolutionaries should act with one another in open ways, new ways, nontraditional ways in order to help usher in the coming revolution.

列宁十分推崇这部作品，称其具有展示如何成为革命者的巨大价值。

Lenin loved the work and said it had the great merit of showing you how to be a revolutionary.

因此，列宁的思想既受到马克思主义影响，也深受俄国民粹主义和虚无主义思潮的影响，后者在其思想中同样占据重要地位。

So there's the Marxist influence, and then there's Russian populist, nihilist influence, which is also a very live current in Lenin's thinking.

当这些因素交织在一起时，便形成了极具爆炸性的混合体。

And when you add these things together, you get an explosive mix.

由于家庭创伤（兄长遭处决）的影响，列宁成为了沙皇制度势不两立的敌人，并致力于将自己打造成所谓的'革命制导导弹'。

Because Lenin, as a result and part of this family trauma of his brother, becomes an absolutely irreconcilable enemy of the tsarist regime and sets about turning himself into what you might call a guided missile for revolution.

他将自己打造成一台制造革命变革的机器。

He turns himself into a machine to produce revolutionary change.

我这么说几乎没有夸张。

And I mean that with little hyperbole.

列宁曾向朋友透露，他喜欢听音乐，但尽量避免听贝多芬那样优美的音乐，因为这让他感觉心软。

Lenin at one point shared with friends that he loved listening to music, but he tried not to listen to beautiful music like Beethoven because it made him feel gentle.

革命需要的是现实主义、铁石心肠和钢铁般的决心。

What the revolution demanded was realism, hardness, absolute steely resolve.

因此列宁对革命的全神贯注甚至让其他革命同志感到担忧。

So Lenin worries even fellow revolutionaries by the intensity of his single-minded focus to revolution.

他日日夜夜都在思考革命。

He spends his days thinking about the revolution.

他可能连做梦都在想着革命。

He probably dreamt about the revolution.

就这样日复一日，他刻意剥离其他人性元素，将自己塑造成一个高效的革命煽动者。

And so twenty four seven, it's an existence where he's paired off other human elements quite deliberately in order to turn himself into an effective, instigator of revolution.

所以当1917年机会来临时，他已做好准备，蓄势待发。

So when the opportunity comes in 1917, he's primed and and ready, for that role.

有趣的是，虚无主义，俄罗斯虚无主义，对列宁产生了影响。

It's interesting that nihilism, Russian nihilism, had an impact on Lenin.

我的意思是，传统上，虚无主义哲学拒绝一切传统道德。

I mean, traditionally, nihilist philosophy rejects all sorts of traditional morality.

这是一种愤世嫉俗的黑暗观点，光明在哪里？

There's a kind of cynical, dark view, and where's the light?

光明就是科学。

The light is science.

光明就是科学与唯物主义。

Light is science and materialism.

哦，

Oh,

天啊。

boy.

那些虚无主义者中，有些人掩饰政治信仰的手法相当拙劣，因为他们会佩戴——以戴蓝色镜片眼镜而闻名，那是19世纪末的一种墨镜，既用来遮挡光线，又能以冷静客观的视角观察外界现实。

The nihilists, some of them did a very bad job of hiding their political beliefs because they would wear they were famous for wearing blue tinted spectacles, kind of the sunglasses of the late nineteenth century, as a way of, shielding their eyes from light, but also having a dispassionate and realistic view of reality, outside.

因此，正如其名所示，虚无主义者确实否定所有先前的确定性，但他们为科学破例，并将其视为开创全新生存模式的可能性。

So, nihilists, as the name would suggest, do reject all prior certainties, but they make an exception for science and see that as the possibility for founding a, an entirely new mode of existence.

对大多数人而言，我想虚无主义是通过那部杰出的哲学作品被引入的——不知你是否熟悉——片名叫《谋杀绿脚趾》。

For most people, I think nihilism is introduced in the brilliant philosophical work, I don't know if you're familiar with it, by the name of, The Big Lebowski.

虚无主义者在那里登场。

Nihilists appear there.

我认为他们相当精辟地概括了虚无主义的传统。

And I think they summarize the nihilist tradition quite well.

但这确实引人入胜，而且列宁——我相信这也影响了斯大林——那种冷酷特质同样令人着迷。是的。

But it is indeed fascinating, and also it is fascinating that Lenin, and I'm sure this influenced Stalin as well, that hardness Yeah.

是将革命进行到底所必需的人类特质。

Was a necessary human characteristics to take the revolution to its to its end.

确实如此。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

因此，前几代的虚无主义者或民粹主义者通过主张需要全身心投入这一点，与列宁的专注精神相似。

So prior generations of nihilists or populists had resembled Lenin's single-mindedness by being you know, by by arguing that one needed total devotion for this.

要在社会中扮演这一角色，仅凭部分投入是不够的。

This was if to play this role in society, it was not enough to be somewhat committed.

必须要有完全的奉献。

Total commitment was necessary.

这里显然还涉及另一个主题，如果我们认为列宁受到马克思主义思想及俄罗斯本土革命传统（早于马克思主义社会主义传入俄国）的影响，那就是需要适应本土条件。

And the other theme that's at work here obviously is if we consider Lenin affected by Marxist ideas and the homegrown Russian revolutionary tradition that predates the arrival of Marxist socialism in Russia, it's the theme of needing to adapt to local conditions.

因此，马克思主义或共产主义在越南、古巴、柬埔寨或俄罗斯的本土化适应、主题及反响，将与马克思预期这一切发生的德国大不相同。

So Marxism, or communism in Vietnam or in Cuba or in Cambodia or in Russia will be very different in its local adaptations and local themes and resonance than it was in Germany where Marx would have expected all of this to unfold.

那么，我们来谈谈列宁、托洛茨基和斯大林之间最终导致斯大林积累、夺取并掌握权力的互动过程。

So let's talk about Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin, this little interplay that eventually led to Stalin accumulating, grabbing, and taking a hold of power.

这一过程是怎样的？

What was that process like?

列宁凭借其坚定的信念，带领布尔什维克党度过重重难关，包括与德国签订屈辱的《布列斯特-利托夫斯克条约》——反对派指责这种丧权辱国的条款让俄罗斯帝国大片领土被割裂，但列宁为了更远大的革命目标甘愿承受。

So Lenin's supreme confidence leads the the party through some really difficult steps that involves things like signing the humiliating treaty with the Germans, the Treaty of Brest Litovsk, where critics of the Bolsheviks said that no one who loved their country would have agreed to a so draconian, so harsh, a settlement that saw the peeling off of large territories that had belonged to the Russian empire.

列宁愿意做出这种妥协，是为了赢得更大的胜利。

Lenin is willing to undertake this because of the larger prize.

他甚至表示自己不会费心去阅读条约内容，因为他认为这份条约很快就会变成一纸空文。

He even says that he's not going to bother to read the treaty because shortly that treaty is going to be a dead letter.

他预期革命浪潮将席卷全球，特别是在俄罗斯帝国废墟上率先举起革命旗帜后。

His expectation is revolution's going to break out everywhere, especially after we've raised the standard, first of all, in the wreckage of the the Russian empire.

我们或许应该指出，这份条约在某种程度上为第二次世界大战埋下了伏笔。

And we should probably say that that treaty to some small degree, maybe you can elaborate now or later, lays the the groundwork for World War two.

因为怨恨情绪经过时间发酵会引发极端破坏性后果。

Because there is resentment is a thing that with time can lead to just extreme levels of destruction.

:

Right.

对德国民族主义者而言，这个条约意味着德国实际上赢得了一战胜利。

In for for German sensibilities, for German nationalists, that treaty meant that Germany had essentially won World War one.

而正是许多德国人当时无法理解或预见的一系列事件——美军参战、西线战局逆转——导致了这一结果。

And only a turn of events that many of them couldn't even follow or conceive of, the arrival of American troops, the tipping of the balance in the West, led to that reversal.

多位学者和同时代人指出，两次世界大战之间的德国充斥着坚信德国实际上并未战败的人群。

One of the many scholars and contemporaries pointed out that Germany between the wars was full of people who were convinced that Germany had actually not lost the war.

无论他们如何定义这种所谓的胜利。

However, that victory of theirs was defined.

因此毫无疑问，这种基础已经奠定。

So most definitely, that groundwork is laid.

顺便说，这个话题我们可以稍后再详谈。

And incidentally, this is something we can talk about later.

第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战之间存在着许多这样的关联。

World War one and World War two have a lot of linkages like that.

随着时间的推移，我认为历史学家会愈发关注这些内在联系。

And and as time goes by, I think historians are gonna focus on those linkages even more.

但列宁同样以逆势而上的领导力，在俄国内战中带领布尔什维克夺取政权——当时面对众多敌人，绝大多数赌客都认为他们连存活的可能性都微乎其微。

But Lenin also, in his leadership against the odds, leads the Bolsheviks to power in the Russian Civil War, where most betting people would have given them very slight odds of even surviving given how many enemies they faced off against.

列宁对纪律性和组织性的坚持使布尔什维克最终胜出。

Lenin's insistence upon discipline and upon good organization allowed the Bolsheviks to emerge as the winners.

然而，随之而来的是巨大的失望。

And yet, a great disappointment follows.

正如我们所说，列宁曾预期革命很快会在各地爆发，布尔什维克只需率先行动，再与其他革命力量联合即可。

Lenin, as we said, had expected that revolution will break out soon everywhere, and all it'll be necessary for the Bolsheviks to do, having given the lead, is to link up with others.

因此他认为，将建立起一座红色桥梁，连接共产主义俄国与必然走向革命转型的共产主义德国。

And so he considered that what would be established would be a red bridge between a communist Russia and once Germany inevitably plunged ahead into its revolutionary transformation, a communist Germany.

这一愿景最终未能实现。

That doesn't end up happening.

相反，德国爆发了各种社会主义派别之间的全面武装冲突。

On the contrary, what happens in Germany is an out and out shooting war between different kinds of socialists.

当德国建立起后来被称为魏玛共和国的民主政体时，其政府由社会民主党——温和的社会民主派组成，他们畏惧俄国式的混乱局面，也不一定认同列宁主义那种严密组织的威权统治理念。

When Germany establishes a democracy that later goes by the name of the Weimar Republic, the government, is a government of social democrats, moderate social democrats, who are fearful of what they see as Russian conditions of disorder and who are not necessarily in sympathy with the Leninist vision of tightly organized authoritarian rule.

因此在德国起义的共产党人遭到了德国社会党政府雇佣的雇佣兵、久经沙场的前线战士以及民族主义激进分子的残酷镇压。

So communists who revolt in Germany are brutally suppressed by mercenaries, hardened front fighters and nationalist radicals hired by the German socialist government.

这场手足相残导致德国社会主义运动留下了无法愈合的创伤。

And the result is a wound that just won't heal in the German socialist movement as a result of this fratricide.

这挫败了列宁的雄心壮志。

It frustrates Lenin's ambitions.

同样令列宁失望的是，波兰非但没有布尔什维克化，反而抵抗布尔什维克向德国推进并与之联合的企图。

So too does the fact that Poland, rather than going Bolshevik, resists attempts by the Bolsheviks to move forward and to connect up with Germany.

波兰人再次在改变历史预期进程上扮演了极其重要的角色。

The Poles, yet again, play a tremendously important historical role in changing the expected course historical events.

在这些意外转折之后，列宁及其同僚意识到这将是一场持久战。

It's in the aftermath of these unexpected turns that Lenin and his colleagues realize that they're in this for the long haul.

必须等待更长时间。

It's necessary to wait longer.

可以说，他们并未丧失对国际工人革命终将到来的希望与信心，但这一进程已被推迟。

They don't lose hope in or confidence, you might say in the eventual coming of international workers' revolution, but it has it's been deferred.

革命被延后了。

It's been put off.

于是问题随之而来：在一个名为苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟（简称苏联）的国家里，你们要建设什么？

And so the question then arises, what do you build within a state that's established called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or the Soviet Union?

列宁因遭遇暗杀而健康严重受损，他本希望能继续执政多年以引导政权，却因健康状况恶化被迫退居二线。

Lenin, as a result of an assassination attempt, is deeply affected in his health and would have loved to continue for years longer to steer the regime, but he's sidelined because of his declining health.

随之出现了一场权力角逐——一方是极具魅力的领袖托洛茨基，他是杰出的演说家、知识分子，足迹遍布世界，见多识广，文采斐然，思想深邃，因其'不断革命论'主张（即加速革命进程以推动历史前进，趁热打铁）被视为极端激进派；另一方却是个出人意料的权力竞争者。

And there emerges a contest, a contest between a very charismatic leader, Liotrotsky, on the one hand, who is an amazing orator, who is an intellectual, who has traveled widely in the world, who has seen much of the world, and who is brilliant writer, a far ranging intellect, and is seen as extremely radical because of his demand for permanent revolution, the acceleration of revolutionary processes to drive history forward, to strike while the iron is hot, And on the other hand, is an extremely unlikely contender for power.

此人若当面相见，堪称魅力的反面教材。

And that's a man who's probably the antithesis of charisma if you were to meet him in person.

此人嗓音尖细偏高，不适合革命演说，脸上布满年少患病留下的痘疤，而且他说的俄语并不优雅精妙，反而带着浓重的格鲁吉亚口音——他来自沙俄帝国的那个地区——这就是斯大林。

A guy with a squeaky, somewhat high pitched voice not well suited to revolutionary oratory, his face pockmarked with the scars of youthful illness, and who, moreover, doesn't speak a fine, sophisticated Russian but speaks a Russian heavily inflected with a Georgian accent from that part of the Russian empire from which he came, and that was Stalin.

我知道你们已经采访过斯大林的杰出传记作者斯蒂芬·科特金，他在这个课题上有诸多真知灼见。

And I know that you already have a marvelous interview with Stephen Kotkin, the brilliant biographer of Stalin, who has so many insights on that subject.

即便在研读斯大林资料后，仍有件事让我始终感到惊讶——甚至事后回想亦然——那就是斯大林获得的名声并非

The one thing that's that even after reading about Stalin that never ceases to surprise me, even in retrospect, is that Stalin gains a reputation not

作为

as

一个激进的革命者，而是作为一个温和派，一个善于调解的人，一个在他人激动时保持冷静的人，一个凭借其组织能力，能够用实际解决方案化解纯理论争端的人。

a fiery radical but as a moderate, a man who's a conciliator, someone who's calm when others are excited, someone who is able, because of his organizational skills, to resolve merely theoretical disputes with practical solutions.

要充分理解这一点，我们必须抛开从我们现在的视角所了解的斯大林领导时期的情况——斯大林清除异己的残暴手段、那个出人意料却极为成功地围绕他建立起来的个人崇拜，以及最终使他被描述为‘拿着电话的成吉思汗’的那种绝对统治地位——一个将古代野蛮行径与现代技术运用相结合的残暴独裁者。

Now, to fully take this aboard, we have to unknow what we know from our vantage point about Stalin's leadership, Stalin's brutality in eliminating his opposition, the cult of personality that, against all odds, got built up around Stalin so so successfully, and the the absolute dominant role that led him later to be described as Genghis Khan with a telephone, a brutal dictator of a with ancient barbarism allied to the use of modern technology.

当托洛茨基发表激动人心的演讲并进行理论阐述时，斯大林则在幕后运作，掌控着布尔什维克运动及国家内部的人事任免权。

While Trotsky is delivering stirring speeches and theorizing, Stalin works behind the scenes to, control personnel decisions in the Bolshevik movement and in the state.

而且，你知道的，虽然这是老生常谈但确实如此——人事即政策。

And, you know, it's a cliche because it's true that personnel is policy.

托洛茨基逐渐被边缘化，随后被妖魔化，最终被驱逐出苏联，后来在墨西哥城遇害。

Trotsky is increasingly sidelined and then demonized and eventually expelled from the Soviet Union and later murdered in in Mexico City.

对斯大林而言，铲除敌人是他最为得心应手的解决之道。

For Stalin, eliminating his enemies turned out to be the solution that he was most comfortable with.

从这个角度看，这里有很多引人入胜的内容。

So from that perspective, there's a lot of fascinating things here.

其一是你可能会遇到一只披着温和外衣的狼，一个残暴的独裁者。

So one is that you can have a wolf, a, brutal dictator in moderate clothing.

所以仅仅因为某人表现得温和，没错。

So just just because somebody presents as moderate That's right.

并不意味着他们不可能是历史上最具破坏性的人之一，甚至就是最破坏性的人。

Doesn't mean they can't be one of the most destructive, if not the most destructive humans in history.

另一个方面是利用宣传，你可以塑造一个人的形象。

The other aspect is using propaganda, you can construct an image of a person.

即使他们缺乏魅力、外貌不吸引人、声音也不好听，所有这些方面，你仍然可以...直到今天仍有大量人将他视为宗教般的，是的。

Even though they're uncharismatic, not attractive, their voice is no good, all of those aspects, you can still have a like, there's still to this day a very large number of people that see him as a religious Yeah.

一种神一般的存在。

Type of godlike figure.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是宣传的力量。

So the power of propaganda there.

今天，我们会称之为

Today, we would call

塑造形象

that curating the image.

对吧？

Right?

塑造形象，但能做到如此有效的地步确实令人难以置信。

Curating the image, but to to the extent to which you can do that effectively is is quite incredible.

因此，从这个角度看，斯大林也是宣传力量的研究案例。

So in that way, also, Stalin is a study of the power of propaganda.

我们能否讨论一下权力真空是如何被斯大林填补的？

Can we just talk about the ways that the the the power vacuum is filled by Stalin?

这是如何体现的？

How that manifests itself?

或许我们可以从秘密警察的使用方式这个角度切入？

Perhaps one angle we can take is how was the secret police used?

在斯大林统治下，权力是如何体现的？

How how did power manifest itself under Stalin?

在讨论秘密警察之前，我想补充另一个关键因素，那就是列宁的提携。

Well, before getting to the secret police, I would just wanna add the other crucial element, which is Lenin's patronage.

斯大林并非通过争斗进入布尔什维克党并取得支配地位的。

Stalin doesn't, you know, brawl his way into the Bolshevik party and and and and dominate.

他是被列宁提拔到重要岗位的，列宁认为他虽然有些粗鲁、不够圆滑，也不像其他布尔什维克那样见多识广，但却是可靠、值得信赖且坚定的革命者。

He's co opted and promoted to positions of importance by Lenin who sees him as a somewhat rough around the edges, not very sophisticated, much less cosmopolitan than other Bolsheviks, but dependable, reliable, and committed revolutionary.

因此我认为，特别是在苏联解体后档案公开，我们能读到越来越多列宁的通信记录时，有一点变得清晰：我们讨论的并非一系列毫无关联的职业生涯。

So I think that one of the things that's emerged, especially after archives opened up with the fall of the Soviet Union and we were able to read more and more of the communications of Lenin, is that it's not the case that we're talking here about an unconnected series of careers.

相反，这些事件之间存在着联系。

Rather, there are connections to be made.

确实，在列宁晚年，他开始担忧斯大林对党内同志粗暴态度的投诉。

It's true that towards the end of his life, Lenin came to be worried by complaints about Stalin's rudeness towards fellow Bolsheviks.

在他的遗嘱中，他对斯大林的品性提出了警告。

And in his testament, he warned against Stalin's testimonies.

列宁从根本上认为自己是不可替代的，这实际上无助于解决继任斗争问题。

Lenin fundamentally saw himself as irreplaceable, and so that doesn't really help in a succession struggle.

对吧？

Right?

斯大林能够依赖一个在列宁时期就已经建立起来的秘密警察机构。

Stalin is able to rely on a secret police apparatus that had been built up under Lenin already.

在苏联国家建立之初，契卡（即特别委员会）就被设立为秘密警察机构，用以恐吓敌人、镇压政权反对者，并广泛监视社会。

And it's very early in the foundation of the Soviet state that the Cheka, or the Extraordinary Commission, is established as a secret police to terrify the enemies, beat down the opponents of the regime, and to keep an eye on society more generally.

被选中执行这一任务的人在布尔什维克中也是个异类。

The person who's chosen for that task also is an anomaly among Bolsheviks.

此人就是拥有波兰贵族背景的费利克斯·捷尔任斯基，他以‘钢铁费利克斯’的绰号闻名。

That is a man of Polish aristocratic background, Felix Zerzynski, who comes to be known by the nickname Iron Felix.

围绕这个人也形成了个人崇拜。

Here's a man about whom a cult of personality also is created.

在苏联时期，捷尔任斯基被颂扬为严苛但公正的典范。

Zerzynski is celebrated in the Soviet period as the model of someone who's harsh but fair.

一个有着金子般心灵的刽子手。

An executioner, but with a heart of gold.

一个热爱孩子的人。

Somebody who loves children.

一个内心温柔，却在对布尔什维克意识形态事业的反对者面前强迫自己意志如钢的人。

Somebody who has a tender heart but forces himself to be steely willed against the opponents of, the ideological project, of the Bolsheviks.

捷尔任斯基的继任者们对斯大林行使权力至关重要，而他们自己也未能幸免。

Zerzynski is succeeded by figures who will be absolutely instrumental to Stalin's exercise, of power, and they're not immune either.

斯大林在大清洗中也不忘清洗秘密警察，以此将早期暴行的责任转嫁他人，并制造一种连坚定的布尔什维克都难以预料未来、感到自身地位岌岌可危的局面。

Stalin, in his purges, takes care also to purge the secret police as a way of finding others upon whom to deflect blame for earlier atrocities and to produce a situation where even committed Bolsheviks are uncertain of what's going to happen next and feel their own position to be precarious.

顺便说一句，可能还有其他影响因素在这里起作用。

I mean, incidentally, there are other influences that probably are brought to bear here as well.

据说斯大林曾花费大量时间翻阅马基雅维利的《君主论》。

It gets said about Stalin that he used to spend a lot of time flipping through Machiavelli's The Prince.

虽然斯大林个人收藏的《君主论》下落不明（如果还存在的话），但历史学家在列宁著作的空白处发现了斯大林——事实证明他是个如饥似渴的读者——写下的批注，这些文字几乎像是对马基雅维利'目的证明手段合理'这一未明言的观点的评论。

And it seems that Stalin's personal copy of The Prince, nobody knows where that is if it still exists, but historians have found annotations in works by Lenin that Stalin, who was a voracious reader as it turns out, made in the back of one of the books, which sounds almost like a commentary on Machiavelli's almost but not quite suggestion that the ends justify the means.

斯大林本人写道：如果一个人强大、积极且聪明，即使做了他人谴责的事，他依然是个好人。

Stalin's own writing says that if someone is strong, active, and intelligent, even if they do things that other people condemn, they're still a good person.

因此斯大林对自己的认知是：一个遵循这些原则、符合列宁强调实践结果与纪律要求的人，一个能成事的人，这才是关键的道德标准。

And so Stalin's self conception of himself is someone who along these lines and in line with Lenin's emphasis on on practical results and discipline, somebody who gets things done, that's the crucial ethical standard.

最终，在后来的异议分子对布尔什维克道德的批判中，关于何为道德标准、何为道德法则的问题将聚焦于此——顺便说，这可以追溯到马克思的观点。

And ultimately, in criticisms by later dissidents of Bolshevik morality, this question of what is the ethical standard, what is the ethical law, will bring this question into focus because by the and this goes back to Marx as well, incidentally.

这种认为任何伦理体系、是非观念都纯粹是阶级身份的产物——因为每个阶级都会产生其独特的思想、宗教、艺术形式和风格——意味着既然不存在超验或绝对的道德，一切都可以被重新定义。

The notion that any ethical system, any notion of right or wrong, is purely a product of class identity because every class produces its distinctive ideas, its distinctive religion, its distinctive art forms, its distinctive styles, means that with no one transcendent or absolute morality, it's all up for grabs.

于是这就变成了一个关于权力与毫无限制的权力行使的问题，不受任何法律约束。

And then it's a question of power and the exercise of power with no limits, untrammeled by any laws whatsoever.

最纯粹的专政形式，列宁曾公开宣称过，而斯大林则将其实践得更加彻底。

Dictatorship in its purest form, something that Lenin had avowed, and then Stalin comes to practice more even more fully.

倒不是说能看透一个人的内心，但你看托洛茨基，可以说他可能深深信仰马克思主义和共产主义，列宁大概也是如此。

Not that it's possible to look deep into a person's heart, but, you know, if you look at Trotsky, you could say that he probably believed deeply in Marxism and communism, probably the same with Lenin.

你觉得斯大林信仰什么？

What do you think Stalin believed?

他是个信徒吗？

Was he a believer?

他是一个实用主义者，将共产主义作为获取权力的手段，将意识形态作为宣传工具，还是在他内心深处真的相信这个乌托邦？

Was was he a pragmatist that used communism as a way to gain power, and ideology as part of propaganda, or did he in his own private moments deeply believe in this utopia?

这是个很好的问题，你说得很对。

That's an excellent question, and you're quite right.

我的意思是，我们无法窥视一个人内心最深处，也无法确切知道。

I mean, we cannot peer into the inmost recesses of somebody's being and and know for sure.

不过我的直觉是，这可能是一个错误的二元对立。

My intuition though is that is that this may be a false alternative, a false dichotomy.

看到一个做尽恶事的人，很自然地会想：他是不是在利用意识形态作为遮羞布。

It's natural enough to see somebody who does monstrous things to say, Well, is being used ideology is being used as a cover for it.

但我怀疑，这两者在他的历史角色中其实是完全相容的。

But I think that my suspicion is that these were actually perfectly compatible in his historical role.

这种意识形态为你提供了历史发展的大纲，而你自己的权力，这种权力增长到前所未有的程度。

The notion that there's an ideology, it gives you a master plan for how history is going to develop, and your own power, the increase of that power to unprecedented proportions.

你甚至能折磨自己忠实的追随者，就为了看他们痛苦挣扎——这正是斯大林臭名昭著的手段，让所有人不得安宁。

Your ability to torment even your own faithful followers in order just to see them squirm, which Stalin was famous for, to keep people unsettled.

在我看来，对某些人来说，这两者可能不仅不矛盾，甚至可能相互强化，这是个非常可怕的想法。

To me, it seems that for some people, those might not actually be opposed, but might even be mutually reinforcing, which is a very scary thought.

这确实令人恐惧，但理解这一点非常重要。

It's it's terrifying, but it's really important to understand.

如果我们看看斯大林掌权后的一些政策，比如农业集体化，你认为为什么它会如此灾难性地失败，特别是在三十年代的乌克兰和大饥荒时期？

If we look at once Stalin takes power at, some of the policies, so the collectivization of agriculture, why do you think that failed so, catastrophically, especially in the nineteen thirties with Ukraine and Polydomor?

我认为简而言之，布尔什维克党特别是共产党整体与农业之间一直存在非常矛盾的关系。

I think the the short answer is that the Bolsheviks in particular, but also communists more generally, have had a very conflicted relationship with agriculture.

农业作为一种极其重要但又非常传统的人类活动形式，本身就带有传统气息和其他问题因素。

Agriculture, as a very I mean, vital, obviously, but also very traditional, an old form of human activity, has about it all of the smell of tradition and other problematic factors as well.

在俄罗斯或俄罗斯帝国这样的地方，几个世纪以来农民们只想要一件事——不受打扰地耕种自己的土地。

In a place like Russia or the Russian Empire, peasants throughout history, for centuries, had wanted one thing, and that was to be left alone to farm their own land.

这就是他们的乌托邦。

That's their utopia.

而对于像马克思这样将历史发展、超越和进步视为核心的人来说，这种愿景与之完全不相容。

And that, for someone like Marx, who had a vision of historical development and transcendence and progress as being absolutely key, does not mesh at all with that vision.

正因如此，当马克思提出这一历史变革图景——这种跨越数世纪、最终指向终极乌托邦的宏大历史转型时，农民在其中扮演的角色微不足道。

For that reason, when Marx comes up with this tableau, this tremendous display of historical transformation taking place over centuries and headed towards the final utopia, the role of farmers there is negligible.

在马克思的历史观中，农民被描述为保守迟钝如马铃薯袋，因为他们视野有限。

Peasants get called conservative and dull as sacks of potatoes in Marx's historical vision because they're limited in their horizon.

他们耕种自己的土地，除了拥有并耕作土地外，别无更高的革命目标。

They farm their land, their plot, and don't have greater revolutionary goals beyond working the land and having it free and clear.

相比之下，工业化。

By contrast, industrialization.

那才是进步。

That's progress.

这些画面如今会深深触动环保主义者的神经。

Images that today would be deeply disturbing to an environmentalist's sensibility.

烟囱林立、浓烟滚滚的工业副产品，被工厂模式彻底改造的地貌景观。

Smokes steps, belching smoke, the byproducts of industry, a landscape transformed by the factory model.

这就是马克思及其后的布尔什维克党人所构想的画面。

That's what Marx and then later the Bolsheviks have in mind.

同样地，正如马克思著作中所阐述的，目标是将农业和耕作置于工厂模式之下，从而无需处理独立农民或小农的传统角色。

Similarly, the goal, even as articulated in Marx's writings, is to put agriculture and farming on a factory model so that you won't need to deal with this traditional role of the independent farmer or the peasant.

相反，你将拥有那些通过工厂化农场工作而从进步和合理化中受益的人群。

Instead, you'll have people who benefit from progress, benefit from rationalization by working factory farms.

因此在探讨集体化问题时，我们必须记住，对于斯大林及其决心将俄国拖入现代时代（用斯大林的话说，不让它因落后而挨打）的同志们来说，传统农业形式并非他们所考虑的。

So in approaching the question of collectivization, we have to keep in mind that for Stalin and his comrades who are bound and determined to drag Russia kicking and screaming into the modern age and not to allow it be beaten because of its backwardness, as Stalin puts it, traditional forms of agriculture are not what they have in mind.

而在他们期望的结果等级中，工业化，尤其是大规模重工业，是必不可少的条件。

And in their rank of desired outcomes, industrialization, especially massive heavy industry, is the sine qua non.

这就是他们构想的未来。

That's their envisioned future.

农业的地位则次之。

Agriculture rates below.

因此在这种情况下，集体化的关键意义在于掌控粮食局面，使其可预测，避免再次陷入内战时期那样的危机——城市饥荒、工业丧失劳动力、工厂陷入停滞。

So in that case, the crucial significance of collectivization is to get a handle on the food situation in order to make it predictable and not to find oneself in another crisis like during the civil war when the cities are starving, industry is robbed of labor, and the factories are at standstill.

所以这确实是集体化的核心方法：以规范化的方式、国家控制的方式，将农民的生产能力置于国家掌控之下。

So this is really the core approach to collectivization, to put the productive capacities of the farmers in a regimented way, in a state controlled way, under the control of the state.

这造成了巨大的人类苦难，因为农民们原本以为通过革命获得的土地现在被夺走了。

This produces vast human suffering because for the farmers, their plot of land that they thought they had gained as a result of the revolution is now taken away.

他们不再拥有过去那种成为成功农民的动力。

They no longer have the same incentives they had before to be successful farmers.

事实上，如果你是个成功的农民，可能拥有一头牛而邻居没有，你就会被污蔑为富农——一个吝啬的剥削者，尽管你可能正在推动所在地区的农业发展。

In fact, if you're a successful farmer and maybe have a cow as opposed to your neighbors who have no cow, you're defamed and denounced as a kulak, a tight fisted exploiter, even though you might be helping to develop agriculture in the region that you're from.

其结果就是大规模的人类悲剧。

So the result is human tragedy on a vast scale.

顺便提一句，与之相关的是斯大林认为这也是个机会，可以借此打击那些因其他原因反对布尔什维克政权的人，无论是因其乌克兰身份，还是因其追求不同的民族主义计划。

And allied to that, incidentally, is Stalin's sense that this is a chance to also target people who are opposed to the Bolshevik regime for other reasons, whether it's because of their Ukrainian identity, whether it's because of a desire for a different nationalist project.

因此对斯大林而言，集体化背后糅合了多重动机。

So for Stalin, there are many motives that roll into collectivization.

最后需要指出的是，你说得很对，集体化最终被证明是失败的，因为苏联始终未能真正解决农业生产问题。

And the final thing to be said is you are quite right that collectivization proves to be a failure because the Soviet Union never finally gets a grasp on the problems of agricultural production.

到苏联解体时，他们还在从西方进口粮食，尽管拥有全世界最肥沃的农田之一。

By the end of the Soviet Union, they're importing grain from the West in spite of having some of tremendously rich farmland to be found worldwide.

我认为，部分原因与那些被剥夺的激励机制有关。

And the reason for that had to do in part, I think, with the incentives that had been taken away.

富裕的个体农民有动力耕种土地并最大化产量。

Prosperous individual farmers have a motive for working their land and maximizing production.

相比之下，如果你是一家工厂式农业企业的员工，激励机制就完全不同了。

By contrast, if you are an employee of a factory style agricultural enterprise, the incentives run-in very different directions.

苏联和其他类似制度的共产主义国家几十年来流传的笑话是：我们假装工作，他们假装付钱给我们。

The joke that was common for decades in The Soviet Union and other communist countries with similar systems was, We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.

因此，即便是被口头尊重和颂扬的劳动，在实践中获得的回报也微乎其微，最后一点是流动性受限。

So even labor, which is rhetorically respected and valorized, in practice is rewarded with very slim rewards and, the last point, immobility.

集体化减少了农民的流动性，由于内部护照制度，他们未经许可不得迁往城市。

The collectivization reduces the mobility of the peasants who are not allowed because of internal passports to move to the cities unless they have permission.

他们被禁锢在原地。

They're locked in place.

我必须说，在当时和之后，这种对农村劳动者的限制看起来非常像封建主义或新封建主义。

And I gotta say, at the time and afterwards, that looked a lot like feudalism or neo feudalism in terms of the restrictions on on workers in the countryside.

这是一项令人恐惧、可怕却又引人入胜的研究，展示了理想遭遇现实时的溃败。

It is a terrifying, horrific, and fascinating study of how the ideal when meeting reality fails.

所以这里的理念是通过工业化模式让农业更高效、更高产。

So the the idea here is to make agriculture more efficient, so be more productive, so the industrialized model.

但集体化的实施过程包含了所有你提到的与人性相悖的要素。

But the implementation through collectivization had all the elements that you've mentioned that contended with human nature.

首先是对富农——那些成功的农民——进行镇压。

So first with the kulaks, so the successful farmers were punished.

因此，激励就不仅仅是不要成为一个成功的农民，而是要躲藏起来。

And so then the incentive is not just not to be a successful farmer, but to, like, hide.

除此之外，还有一个不断增长的配额，每个人都应该完成，但实际上没人能完成。

Added to that, there's a growing quota that everybody's supposed to deliver on that nobody can deliver on.

所以现在，因为你无法完成这个配额，你基本上是在出口所有粮食，甚至无法养活自己。

And so now, because you can't deliver on that quota, you're basically exporting all your food, and you can't even feed yourself.

然后你遭受越来越多的痛苦，陷入一个恶性循环，就像你根本不可能生产那么多。

And then you suffer more and more and more, and there's a vicious downward spiral of, like, you can't possibly produce that.

现在，又出现了一种人性驱使的现象——人们开始撒谎，所有人都在数据上造假。

Now, there's an another human incentive where you're just gonna lie, everybody lies on the data.

确实如此。

That's right.

所以即便是斯大林本人，无论他多么邪恶或无能，可能都没有掌握真实情况的数据。

And so even Stalin himself, probably, as evil or incompetent as he may be, he was not even getting good data about what's even happening.

就算他想阻止这场恶性多米诺循环，他也无法做到。

Even if he wanted to stop the vicious domino cycle, which he certainly didn't, but he wouldn't be even able to.

所有这些都体现了纸上谈兵的美好理想在现实中带来的黑暗后果。

So there's all these, like, dark consequences of of what on paper seems like a good ideal.

这确实是一个关于理想与现实差距的

And it's it's a fascinating study of, like, things on

纸上谈兵

paper That's right.

当付诸实施时，可能会变得非常非常糟糕。

When implemented, can go really, really bad.

没错。

That's right.

而最终结果是一场可怕的人为饥荒。

And and and and the outcome here is a horrific manmade famine.

这不是自然灾害，不是歉收，而是苏联政府强制征用资源导致的人为饥荒——他们封锁地区，不让饥饿的人民逃离。

Not a natural disaster, not bad harvest, but a manmade famine as a result of then the compulsion that gets used by the Soviet state to extract those resources, cordoning off the area, not allowing starving people to escape.

你很好地指出了这个案例研究中抽象理论与实际执行之间的差异。

You put very well some of the implications of this case study in how things look in the abstract versus in practice.

这些现象将困扰苏联的整个后续发展历程。

And those phenomena were going to haunt the rest of the experience of the Soviet Union.

整个指挥链上下都在伪造、篡改或美化统计数据或报告，以避免显得无能或遭到报复——最终导致尽管表面上宣称掌握全面信息（比如负责制定五年经济计划的国家计划机构理应拥有准确数据），但实际上无人知晓真相。

The whole notion that up and down the chain of command, everybody is falsifying or tinkering with or prettifying the statistics or their reports in order not to look bad and and not to, you know, have vengeance visited upon them reaches the point where nobody, in spite of the pretense of comprehensive knowledge, right, there's a a state planning agency that creates five year plans for the economy as a whole and which is supposed to have accurate statistics.

这一切都建立在流沙般的基础上。

All of this is founded upon a foundation of sand.

这并非有意为之。

That's inadvertent.

这不是预期的副作用。

That's not an intended side effect.

但你描述的关于在农村社会中制造冲突的内部动态绝非无意之举。

But what you described as in terms of the internal dynamics of fostering conflict in a rural society was absolutely not inadvertent.

那是蓄意的。

That was deliberate.

当时的教条就是要挑起内战。

The doctrine was you bring civil war.

那么之前是否存在社会紧张关系？

Now had there been social tensions before?

当然存在过。

Of course, there had.

是否存在嫉妒心理？

Had there been envies?

是否存在财富或地位上的差异？

Had there been differentiations in in wealth or status?

当然，这些情况确实存在过。

Of course, there had been.

但刻意制造阶级冲突、引发内战并在农村激化矛盾的计划造成了破坏，其中最严重的就是这种负面选择现象。

But a deliberate plan to bring class conflict and bring civil war and then heighten it in the countryside does damage, and not least of that is this phenomenon of a negative selection.

那些最具进取心、最具创业精神、最自律、最有组织能力的人会被一遍又一遍地淘汰，传递出平庸比才华相对安全得多的信息。

Those who have most enterprise, those who are most entrepreneurial, those who have most self discipline, those who are best organized will be winnowed again and again and again, sending the message that mediocrity is comparatively much safer than talent.

顺便说一句，这种模式还以极其惨烈的方式转移到了整个俄罗斯知识分子群体以及其他在苏联境内的民族知识分子身上。

And this pattern, incidentally, gets transposed in tremendously harrowing ways also to the entire group of Russian intelligentsia and intellectuals of other peoples who are in the Soviet Union.

他们同样发现，保持独立、拥有不妥协的声音会招致巨大惩罚，尤其是在斯大林恐怖统治时期。

They discover similarly that to be independent, to have a voice which is not compliant, carries with it, tremendous penalties, in in, especially in Stalin's reigns of terror.

这又是一个关于个体心理学的难题。

Again, a difficult question about a psychology of one human being.

但你认为斯大林在斯大林在多大程度上是故意惩罚农民和乌克兰农民的？

But to what degree do you think Stalin was deliberately punishing the farmers and the Ukrainian farmers.

又在多大程度上是故意视而不译视而不译视而不见？

And to what degree was he looking the other way and allowing the the large scale incompetence, the horrific incompetence of the collectivization of agriculture to happen?

嗯，我认为这两者都有。

Well, I mean, think it was both things.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，既有疏忽之罪，也有蓄意之罪。

I mean, there were not only sins of omission, but also sins of commission.

顺便说一句，应该补充的是，我不认为这对斯大林来说是个人恩怨。

Incidentally, one should add, I don't think for Stalin, it was personal.

这些人对他来说非常疏远。

These are people who are very remote from him.

他从未直接接触过这些正在这样受苦的人。

He never is coming into contact with the people who are suffering in this way.

有句名言归因于他：一个人的死亡是悲剧。

Attributed to him is the quote that one death is a tragedy.

一百万人的死亡就是统计数字。

A million deaths is a statistic.

我认为他在行动上确实采取了能证明这一点的做法。

I think he, in action, certainly acted in a way that would vindicate that.

但集体化的过程不仅仅是一连串官僚失误的叠加。

But the process of collectivization was not just a bureaucratic snafu following on bureaucratic snafu.

当时动员了共产主义青年团、军队和党的积极分子深入各地，搜寻隐藏的粮食，竭尽所能榨取食物资源。

There was the mobilization of communist youth, of military, of party activists to go into the regions and to search for hidden food, to extract the food where it could be found.

关于这点我们有当事人的证词，比如后来成为异议人士的列夫·科佩列夫，他在回忆录中写道自己就是被派去执行这些政策的人员之一，亲眼目睹奄奄一息的农户家中最后的口粮被夺走的场景。

And this we have testimony to this in the case of people who later became dissidents, like Lev Kopolev, who wrote in his memoirs about how he was among those who were sent in to enact these policies, and he saw families with the last food being taken away even as signs of starvation were visible already in the present.

然而他并没有崩溃。

And yet, he did not go mad.

他没有自杀。

He didn't kill himself.

他没有陷入绝望，因为他当时被灌输并相信这样做是正当的。

He didn't fall into despair because he believed, because he had been taught and believed at least then that this was justified.

这是一个更宏大的历史进程，即便犯下如此暴行，最终也会成就更大的善。

This was a larger historical process, and a greater good would result even from these enormities.

因此我认为这是相当蓄意的。

So I think that this was quite deliberate.

正如你所提到的，接下来就是大清洗时期，知识分子、共产党官员、军官、官僚，所有人。

Following this, as you've mentioned, there was the process of the great terror, where the intellectuals, the communist party officials, the military officers, the bureaucrats, everybody.

75万人被处决，超过100万人被送往古拉格。

750,000 people were executed, and over a million people were sent to the gulag.

对于斯大林在1936至1938年间实施的大清洗，你能从中总结出什么历史教训？

What can you say by way of wisdom from this process of the great terror that Stalin implemented from '36 to '38?

这场恐怖运动的受害者群体非常多元。

Well, the the terror had a variety of victims.

有些人是真正的信徒和布尔什维克，斯大林特别针对他们，既是为了报复自己早年在这个运动中遭受的屈辱，也是为了铲除竞争对手或潜在权力中心及其家族成员。

There were people who were true believers and who were Bolsheviks, who were especially targeted by Stalin because he aimed to revenge himself for all the sort of condescension that he'd experienced in that movement before, and also to eliminate rivals or potential rival power centers and members of their families.

还有些人则纯粹是被卷入这个机制——各地镇压机关都收到了指标任务。

And then there were people who simply got caught up in a process whereby the repressive organs in the provinces were sent quotas.

你必须完成指标，如果超额完成就更好了。

You have to achieve your quota, and maybe even better yet, overachieve your quota, overperform.

这将成为恐怖时代官僚体系中成功与晋升的关键。

That would be the key to success and rising in the bureaucracies in the Age of the Terror.

令人毛骨悚然的是，整个社会在此过程中陷入瘫痪的状态，邻居会在深夜被带走，而人们却不敢谈论此事。

What's so horrifying is the way in which a whole society stood paralyzed in this process, and how neighbors would be taken away in the middle of the night, and people would be wary of talking about it.

至少在中心城市，抵抗行动完全被恐惧所麻痹——如果有人能找到动员或抵抗的方法，结果或许会有所不同。

Resistance, at least in these urban centers, was entirely paralyzed by fear when, if one had somehow find a way to mobilize, somehow a way to resist the process, the results might have been different.

有一本令人震惊的著作。

There's an astonishing book.

我是说，近期甚至关于这些主题也涌现了许多杰出著作。

I mean, are so many great books that have come out quite recently even on these topics.

奥兰多·菲格斯有本杰作《低语者》，追溯了斯大林时期几个家族的历史。

Orlando Fiegas has an amazing book called The Whisperers that traces several families' history in the Stalin period.

它见证了整个社会及其部分最聪明的人如何在那个负面筛选过程中被反复淘汰，这种持续性的错位与伤痕，以及人们因害怕成为下一个被怀疑对国家不够忠诚的目标而不敢公开谈论这些事。

And it's a testimony to how a whole society and some of its most intelligent people got winnowed again and again and again in that process of negative selection that we talked about, the lasting dislocation and scars that this left, and the way in which how people were not able to talk about these things in public because that would put you next on the list suspected of having less than total devotion to the state.

我认为整个过程中最令人恐惧的一点是，即便完全忠诚也远远不够。

I think one of the things that also is so terrifying about the entire process is even total devotion wasn't enough.

这一过程自行发展，我认为在某些方面甚至可能让斯大林都感到意外，尽管还不足以中断整个进程。

The process took on a life of its own, and I think that it might even have surprised Stalin in some ways, not enough to short circus the process.

但这种鼓励人们告发邻居、同事甚至家人的机制，意味着越来越多的人会被卷入秘密警察的监控范围，遭受酷刑以获取供词。

But the notion where people were invited to denounce neighbors, coworkers, maybe even family members meant that ever larger groups of people would be brought into the orbit of the secret police, tortured in order to produce confessions.

这些供词又会引出更多嫌疑人名单，这些人或被处决，或被送往古拉格劳改营。

Those confessions then would lead to more lists of suspects of people who had to be investigated and either executed or sent to the gulags.

由此产生的不确定性是巨大的。

The uncertainty that this produced was enormous.

甚至连忠诚也无法保护人们免遭厄运。

Even loyalty was not enough to save people.

索尔仁尼琴的《古拉格群岛》中充满了这样的故事：忠诚的共产主义者发现自己身陷劳改营，还坚信一定是某个环节出了差错。

Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago is full of stories of dedicated communists who find themselves in the gulag and are sure that some mistake has been made.

他们总想着：只要斯大林同志知道发生在他们身上的冤屈，就一定会得到纠正。

And if only Comrade Stalin would hear about this terrible thing that has happened to them, surely, it would be corrected.

而与之形成鲜明对比的是，其他被指控犯有严重罪行的人则坚信那些指控背后必定存在某些事实依据。

And nothing like this would everyone else, by contrast, accused of terrible crimes must there there must be some truth behind that.

所以，你知道的，谈到瓦解社会的方法，破坏信任纽带的方式。

So, you know, talk about ways of of disaggregating a society, ways of breaking down bonds of trust.

这在整社会中留下了持久的痕迹，一直延续至今。

This left lasting traces on, an entire society, that that endured to this very day.

是啊。

Yeah.

它们再次成为人性的迷人研究案例，本质上出现了一种叛国供词的涌现配额。

They're, again, a fascinating study of human nature that there essentially was an emergent quota of confessions of treason.

所以，尽管整个社会都处于恐惧之中，并通过恐惧保持忠诚，但仍需要大量关于人们不忠的供词。

So, like, even though the whole society was terrified and were, through terror, loyal, there still needed to be a lot of confessions of people being disloyal.

没错。

Right.

所以你现在就是在胡编乱造了。

So you're just making shit up now.

就像，大规模地编造事实。

Like, at a mass scale, stuff is being made up.

而且这台机器或秘密警察开始自我吞噬，因为你想要告发你的

And it's also the machine or the secret police starts eating itself because you want to be confessing on your

没错。

That's right.

上司，告发你的...这就是那个诡异黑暗的动态系统，人性在最恶劣状态下的表现。

Boss, on your and this is this weird, dark dynamic system, where human nature just as as it is its worst.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

为什么我们通过这场关于马克思主义的深入讨论，能在多大程度上理解苏联共产主义实践为何会以如此黑暗的方式失败？无论是在农业和工业化的经济体系方面，还是在践踏所有人权、酷刑、苦难、古拉格集中营等种种非人道方式上。

Why if we look at this deep discussion we had about Marxism, to what degree can we understand from that lens why the implementation of communism in the Soviet Union failed in such a dark way, Both on the economic system with agriculture and industrialization, and on the human way, with the just violation of every possible human right, and the torture, and the suffering, and gulags, and all of all of this.

我认为部分原因可以追溯到我们之前提到的伦理基础问题——那种认为伦理完全取决于情境，任何伦理体系都是特定阶级现实和物质现实的产物，这种观点敞开了罪恶的大门。

Well, I think some of it comes back to the ethical grounding that we mentioned earlier, the notion that ethics are entirely situational and that any ethical system is an outgrowth of a particular class reality, a particular material reality, and that leaves the door wide open.

所以我认为这个因素从一开始就存在。

So I think that that aspect was present from the very beginning.

我认为马克思的期望——革命会在发达国家取得成功并站稳脚跟——在这方面也起到了作用。

I think that the expectations of Marx that the revolution would take hold and be successful in a developed country played a role here as well.

俄罗斯在第一次世界大战前就比欧洲其他国家落后，在经历了战争蹂躏和战后持续数百万人的死亡后，更是处于极度糟糕的状态。

Russia, which compared to the rest of Europe was less developed even before the First World War, is in a dire state after all of the ravage and the millions of deaths that continue even after the war has ended in the West.

这导致几乎不存在结构性约束或正常运转的社会机制来阻止这种发展方式。

That leaves precious little in the way of structural restraints or a functioning society that would say, let's not do things this way.

我认为，事后看来，这种为特殊个体预留的、能够推动历史进程加速发展的特殊角色，确实让人们得以进入这些位置，并自命为这种意识形态愿景的执行者。

I think that in retrospect, that special role carved out for special individuals who can move this process forward and accelerate historical development allowed for people to step into those roles and and appoint themselves executors of this ideological vision.

所以我认为这些因素也起了作用。

So I think those things play a role as well.

现在很难做反事实推演，但在多大程度上可以说共产主义理想制造了权力真空，然后独裁者式的人物趁虚而入，接下来就是赌这个独裁者是什么类型的人了？

Now, it's hard to do counterfactual history, but to what degree is this basically that the communist ideals create a power vacuum and a dictator type figure steps in, and then it's a roll of the dice of what that dictator is like.

你能想象如果托洛茨基成为独裁者的世界吗？

So can you imagine a world where the dictator was Trotsky?

我们是否会看到类似的情况？还是说像斯大林这样的铁腕人物在面对这些黑暗事件时更倾向于视而不见，而托洛茨基这样的人若看到这些政策的实际后果可能会感到震惊？

Would we see very similar type of things, Or is the hardness and the brutality of somebody like Stalin manifested itself in being able to look the other way as some of these dark things were happening more so than somebody like Trotsky who would presumably be see the realizations of these policies and be shocked.