#80 – 维塔利克·布特林：以太坊、加密货币与货币的未来

因此，这种机制完美补偿了类似‘公地悲剧’中n比1的损失。

And so that kind of perfectly compensates for the kind like, kind of n to one tragedy of the commons.

我只是好奇平方部分是否在某种程度上是基础性的。

I just wonder if the the squared part is somehow fundamental.

不是。

No.

确实是。

It is.

我建议你去vitalik.ca网站，我有一篇名为《二次支付入门》的文章。

And I'd recommend you go to on vitalik.ca, I have this article called Quadratic Payments of Primer.

我强烈推荐阅读。

I highly recommend it.

这至少算是我目前为解释其背后原理所做的尝试。

It's kind of at least my attempt so far in explaining the intuition behind this.

原理。

Intuition.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，我们能否从最基础的部分开始？

So if we could, can we go to the the very basic?

嗯。

Mhmm.

什么是区块链？

What is the blockchain?

或许我们甚至可以从拜占庭将军问题及一般的拜占庭容错谈起，我记得比特币正是在尝试为这些问题提供解决方案。

Or perhaps we might even start at the the Byzantine general's problem and Byzantine fault tolerance in general that I I Bitcoin was taking steps to providing a solution for.

嗯。

Mhmm.

拜占庭将军问题是Leslie Lamport在198

So the Byzantine general's problem, it's this paper that Leslie Lamport published in 1982 where he has this thought experiment where if you have two generals that are kind of camped out on opposite sides of a city and they're planning when to attack the city, then the question is, kind of, how could those generals coordinate with each other?

1982年发表的一篇论文中的思考实验。

And they could send mess messengers between each other, but those messengers kind of could get sniped by the enemy on the road, some of those messages could end up being traitors, and then if things could end up happening and with just two mess generals, it turns out that there's kind of no solution in a finite number of rounds that guarantees that they will be able to kind of coordinate on the same answer.

但在将军数量超过两位的情况下，Leslie分析了不同情形，比如这些消息是否仅为口头传递？

But then in the case where you have more than two generals, then Leslie analyzes cases like, are the mess messages kind of just oral messages?

这些消息是否为签名消息？这样我可以给你一条签名消息，你可以转发它，而第三方仍能验证消息最初是由我发出的。

Are the messages kind of signed messages so I could give you a a signed message, and then you can pass along that signed message, and the third party could still verify that I originally made that message.

根据不同情况，对于给定数量的将军及其中的叛徒数量，以及在何种条件下能就发动进攻达成一致，存在不同的界限。

And depending on those different cases, there's kind of different bounds on, like, given how many generals and how many traders among those generals and if what like, under what conditions you actually can agree when to launch an attack.

因此，认为拜占庭将军问题未被解决是个重大误解，实际上Leslie Lamport已经解决了它。

So it's actually a big misconception that the the Byzantine general's problem was unsolved, so Leslie Lamport solved it.

不过尚未解决的是，所有这些解决方案都假定你们已事先确定将军的固定名单。

The thing that was unsolved, though, is that all of these solutions assume that you've already agreed on kind of a fixed list of who the generals are.

而且这些将军必须在某种程度上具备半可信度。

And these generals have to be kind of semi trusted to some extent.

他们不能是完全匿名的人，因为如果是匿名，敌人可能就占据了99%的将军席位。

They can't just be anonymous people because if they're anonymous, then, like, the enemy could just be 99% of the generals.

确实如此。

So Right.

对。

Right.

在八十年代和九十年代，分布式系统的通用用例更多是企业级应用，你可以假设知道运行这些计算机网络的节点是谁。

The in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, kind of the general use case for distributed system stuff was more kind of enterprise y stuff where you could kind of assume that, you know, you know who the nodes are that are running these kind of computer networks.

所以如果你想建立一个去中心化的计算机网络，让它伪装成一台单独的计算机，你可以在上面进行操作，那么它由这15台特定计算机组成，我们知道它们是谁、在哪里，因此我们有充分理由相信至少其中11台会正常运行。

So if you want to have some kind of decentralized computer network that pretends to be a single computer and that you can kind of do do kind of operations on, then it's made out of these kind of 15 specific computers, we know kind of who and where they are, and so we have a good reason to believe that, say, at least 11 of them would be fine.

而且它也可以在一个单一系统内部。

And it it could also be within a a single system Exactly.

几乎可以是一个设备网络、传感器网络等等，比如飞机上的系统，飞行系统总体上仍在使用这类理念。

Almost a network of devices, sensors, so on, like in air airplanes, and think, like, flight systems in general still use these kinds of ideas.

是的。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

所以这就是八十年代的情况。

So So that's the eighties.

那是八十年代和九十年代。

That's the eighties and nineties.

现在密码朋克们有个不同的应用场景，他们想创建一种完全去中心化、全球无需许可的货币。

Now the cypherpunks had a different use case in mind, which is that they wanted to create a fully decentralized global permissionless currency.

这里的问题在于他们不想要任何权威机构，甚至不想要任何特权人员名单。

And the problem here is that they didn't want any authorities, and they didn't even want any kind of privileged list of people.

于是现在的问题是：当你无法验证身份时，如何运用这些技术达成共识？

And so now the question is, well, how do you use these techniques to create consensus when you have no way of kind of measuring identities.

对吧？

Right?

你根本无法判断99%的参与者是否其实都是同一个人。

You have no way of kind of determining whether or not some 99% of participants aren't actually all the same guy.

所以中本聪提出的巧妙解决方案——这要回溯到我几个月前在DEFCON上的演讲，当时我说中本聪发明的是加密经济学。

And so the clever solution that Satoshi had, this is kind of going back to the that presentation I made at DEFCON a few months ago where I said that the thing Satoshi invented was cryptoeconomics.

这个绝妙的想法是：你可以利用经济资源来限制你能获得的身份数量数量。

Is this a really neat idea that you can use economic resources to limit how many identities you can get.

如果不存在任何现成的去中心化数字货币，那么唯一的方法就是通过工作量证明来实现。

And if there isn't any existing decentralized digital currency, then the only way to do this is with proof of work.

在工作量证明机制下，解决方案就是发布一个需要消耗可计算量级算力才能解决的数学难题的答案，从而获得一个身份。

So with proof of work, the solution is just you publish a solution to a hard mathematical puzzle that takes some clearly calculable amount of computational power to solve, you get an identity.

如果你解决了五个这样的难题，就能获得五个身份。

And then you solve five of those puzzles, you get five identities.

然后我们就在这些身份之间运行共识算法。

And then these are the identities that we run the consensus algorithm between.

所以你刚才描述的工作量证明机制，就像是白皮书中提出的核心理念。嗯。

So the proof of work mechanism you just described is, like, the fundamental idea proposed in the Mhmm.

在那份定义了

In the white paper that defines

嗯。

Mhmm.

比特币的白皮书中。

Bitcoin.

我们希望达成的共识理念是什么？

What's the idea of consensus that we wish to reach?

为什么在这里共识如此重要？

What what why is consensus important here?

什么是共识？

What is consensus?

用简单的技术术语来说，这里的目标是将大量计算机以某种方式连接起来，使它们对外界表现得像一台计算机，即使组成它的很大一部分计算机出现故障，这台‘单一计算机’仍能继续运作。

So the goal here, in just simple technical terms, is to basically kind of wire together a set of a large number of computers in such a way that they, yeah, kind of pretends to the outside world to be a single computer, where that single computer keeps working even if a large portion of the kind of constituents, computers that make it up break.

而且是以任意方式故障。

And break in arbitrary ways.

它们可能会关机。

They could shut off.

它们可能试图主动破坏系统。

They could try to actively break a system.

它们可能做出许多恶意行为。

They could do lots of mean things.

密码朋克们之所以想这么做，是因为他们想在这台虚拟计算机上运行一个特定程序。

So the reason why the Cypherpunks wanted to do this is because they wanted to run one particular program on this virtual computer.

他们想运行的这个特定程序就是一个货币系统。

And the one particular program that they wanted to run is just a currency system.

对吧？

Right?

这个系统就是处理一系列交易。

It's a system that just processes a series of transactions.

对于每笔交易，它会验证发送方是否有足够的币来支付。

And for every transaction, it verifies that the sender has enough coins to pay for the transaction.

它会验证数字签名是否正确。

It verifies that the digital signature is correct.

如果检查通过，就会从一个账户扣除相应币数，并添加到另一个账户，大致如此。

And if the check's passed, then it subtracts the coins from one account and adds the coins to the other account, roughly.

首先，工作量证明这个概念，至少在我看来相当迷人。

So first of all, the the the proof of work idea is kinda I mean, at least to me, pretty fascinating.

确实如此。

It is.

我是说，这确实是个革命性的想法。

I mean, that's a because it's kind of a revolutionary idea.

我的意思是，想到可以用计算资源来换取身份认证，这想法本身就很显而易见吗？

I mean, is is it is it obvious to come up with that you can use, you can exchange basically computational resources for for identity?

嗯。

Mhmm.

其实这个概念有相当长的历史。

It's it actually has a pretty long history.

最早是在1994年由McSinthia Dwork和Ningzin Neor（音）的论文中提出的。

It was, first proposed in a paper by, McSinthia Dwork and Ningzin Neor in 1994, I believe.

最初的应用场景是反垃圾邮件。

And the original use case was, combating email spam.

所以核心思路是发送邮件时必须附带工作量证明。

So the idea is that if you send an email, you have to send it with a proof of work attached.

这样一来，给朋友发邮件的成本相对较低，但要给上百万人发垃圾邮件就会非常昂贵。

And, like, this makes it reasonably cheap to send emails to your friends, but it makes it really expensive to send spam to a million people.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个简单而绝妙的主意。

That's a simple, brilliant idea.

那么或许退一步讲，区块链在这里扮演什么角色？

So maybe also taking a step back, so what is the role of blockchain in this?

区块链是什么？

What is blockchain?

好的。

Sure.

在我看来，区块链是这样一种系统：由网络中的众多节点共同构成一台虚拟计算机。

So the blockchain I mean, my way of thinking about it is that it is this kind of system where you have this kind of one virtual computer created by this a bunch of these nodes in the network.

之所以称为区块链，是因为这些系统（至少目前）使用的数据结构是：网络中各节点定期发布区块，每个区块包含交易列表和指向前一个区块的指针（即基于前一个区块哈希值构建）。

And the reason why the term blockchain is used is because the data structure that these systems use, at least so far, is one where they when if different nodes in the network periodically publish blocks, and a block is a kind of list of transactions together with a pointer, like a hash of a previous block that it builds on top of.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此网络中节点会创建一系列区块，每个区块都指向前一个区块，这样就形成了

And so you have a series of blocks that that nodes in the network create, where each block points to the previous block, and so you have

这条链。

this chain of them.

区块链概念本身是否内置了容错机制？还是说存在多种不同方式来确保系统不会出现异常行为？

Is a fault tolerance mechanism built into the idea of blockchain, or is there a lot of possibilities of different ways to make sure there's no funny stuff going on?

确实存在很多可能性。

There are indeed a lot of possibilities.

就像我刚才描述的简单架构那样，容错机制是这样运作的。

So in a kind of just simple architecture as I just described, the way the fault tolerance happens is like this.

对吧？

Right?

你有一群节点，它们

So you have a bunch of nodes, and they're just happily kind of occasionally creating blocks, building on top of each other's blocks.

假设你有一个区块。

And let's say you have kind of one block.

我们暂且称它为区块一。

We'll call it kind of block one.

是的。

Yeah.

然后其他人又构建了另一个区块，我们就叫它区块二吧。

And then someone else builds another block, honestly, we'll call it block two.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这时出现了一个攻击者。

Then we have an attacker.

攻击者试图做的是撤销区块二。

And what the attacker tries to do is the attacker tries to revert block two.

他们撤销区块二的方式不是按规则在区块二上构建新区块，而是在区块一上另建一个新区块。

And the way they revert block two is instead of doing the thing they're supposed to do, which is build a block on top of block two, they're gonna build another block on top of block one.

嗯

Mhmm.

所以现在区块一有两个子区块：区块二和区块二副本

So you have block one, which has two children, block two, and then block two prime.

这种情况有时甚至可能随机发生——当网络中的两个节点恰好同时创建区块，且在创建前没收到对方的区块信息时

Now this might sometimes even happen by random chance if two nodes in the network just happen to create blocks at the same time, and they don't hear about each other's things before they create their own.

但这同样可能是攻击导致的

But this also could happen because of an attack.

如果发生这种情况（即遭受攻击），比特币系统中的节点会遵循最长链原则

Now if this happens, you have an attack, then the node in the Bitcoin system, the nodes follow the longest chain.

假设这次攻击发生时原链上已有超过两个区块（即攻击者试图回滚超过两个区块），那么所有节点都会直接忽略它，继续沿着原链前进

So if this attack had happened and when the original chain had more than two blocks on it, so if it was trying to revert more than more than two blocks, then everyone would just would just ignore it, and everyone would just keep following the regular chain.

但在这里，我们同时存在区块二和区块二副本，两者基本势均力敌

But here, you know, we have block two and we have block two prime, and so the two are kind of even.

接下来无论新区块建立在哪个链上（假设区块三现在建立在区块二副本之上），所有节点就会立即认同区块三成为新链头，而区块二副本则被逐渐遗忘，大家会和平地在区块三上继续构建，整个系统就这样持续运行

And then whatever block the next block is created on top of, so say block three is now created on top of block two prime, then everyone sell agrees that block three is the new head, and block two prime is just kind of forgotten, and then everyone just kind of peacefully builds on top of block three and the thing continues.

那么干扰这个系统有多困难呢？

So how difficult is it to mess with the system?

所以如果我们看普遍问题，参与系统的人中有多大比例必须是恶意玩家才能...嗯...

I so how like, if we look at the general problem, like, how many what fraction of people who participate in the system have to be bad players Mhmm.

才能真正干扰系统？

In order to mess with it truly?

比如，有没有一个确切的数字？

Like, what's your is there is there a good number?

有的。

There is.

这取决于你对参与者的建模方式，以及我们讨论的是哪种攻击类型，比例大约在23.2%到50%之间。

Well, depending on kind of what your model of the participants is and, like, what kind of attack we're talking about, it's anywhere between 23.250%.

什么的23.2%到50%？

Of what?

指的是网络中所有计算能力的比例。

Of all of the computing power in the network.

抱歉。

Sorry.

所以22%到50%之间，具体是23.250%。

So twenty two and fifty point between 23.250%.

50%的算力就可能被攻破。

And 50% are can be compromised.

也就是说，一旦你在全网算力中的占比超过23.2%这个阈值，你就有可能实施某些恶意操作。

So, like, once your once your your portion of the total computing power in the network goes above the 23.2 level, then there's kind of things that you can mean things that you can potentially do.

随着你在网络中的算力占比持续上升，实施恶意行为的能力也会相应增强。

And as your percentage of the network kind of keeps going up, then the your ability to do mean things kind of goes higher.

而如果你掌控超过50%的算力，就能彻底摧毁整个系统。

And then if you have above 50%, then you can just break everything.

那么要达到这种程度有多困难？

So how how hard is it to achieve that level?

看起来...嗯...

Like, seems that Mhmm.

从历史角度来看，迄今为止这都异常困难。

So far, historically speaking, it's been exceptionally difficult.

所以

So

这是个颇具挑战性的问题。

This is a challenging question.

从零开始获取那种级别的资源，其经济成本相当高昂。

The economic cost of acquiring that level of stuff from scratch is, fairly high.

我认为大概需要数十亿美元的低位区间。

I think it's somewhere in the low billions of dollars.

你说的‘资源’是指计算资源吗？

And when you say that stuff, you mean computational resources?

对。

Yeah.

具体来说就是专用硬件和人们用来解决这些难题、进行挖矿的ASIC芯片

So specifically specialized hardware and of ASICs that people use to solve these puzzles, do the mining

最近。

these days.

题外话。

Small tangent.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，显然，我主要从事深度学习工作，使用GPU和ASIC进行相关应用。

So, obviously, I work a lot in deep learning with GPUs and ASICs for that application.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也间接听说，很多时候，你知道的，NVIDIA的GPU都卖光了。嗯哼。

And I tangentially kinda hear that so many of these, you know, sometimes NVIDIA GPUs are sold out Uh-huh.

就是因为这个其他应用。

Because of this other application.

比如，如果你能评论的话...我不知道你是否熟悉或对这个领域感兴趣。

Like, what do if you can comment I don't know if you're familiar or interested in this space.

什么样的ASIC芯片？

What kind of ASICs?

如今通常使用哪种硬件来进行工作量证明的实际计算？

What kind of hardware is generally used these days for to do the actual computation for the the proof of work?

当然。

Sure.

比特币和以太坊的情况有些不同。

So in the case of and Bitcoin and Ethereum are a bit different.

以比特币为例，它使用一种名为SHA-256的算法。

So in the case of Bitcoin, there is an algorithm called SHA two fifty six.

这只是一个哈希函数。

It's just a hash function.

所以解题过程就是找出一个数字，使得该数字的哈希值低于某个阈值。

And so the puzzle is just coming up with a number where the hash of the number is below some threshold.

由于哈希值设计上是随机的，你只需要不断尝试不同的数字直到找到符合条件的。

And so because the hashes are designed to be random, you just have to keep on trying different numbers until one works.

ASIC本质上就是专门设计的电路，包含用于反复计算这种哈希的电路结构，一个机箱内会堆叠数百万甚至数十亿个这样的哈希计算单元，然后让这个机箱24小时不间断运行。

And the ASICs are just, like, specialized circuits that contain kind of circuits for evaluating this hash over and over again, and you have kinda, like, millions or billions of these hash evaluators since just stacked on top of each other inside of a box, and you just keep on running the box twenty four seven.

在ASIC芯片中，确实有专门为这种运算设计的硬件。

In the ASICs, there's literally specialized hardware designed for this.

是的。

Yes.

哦，我们真是生活在一个神奇的世界里。

Oh, this is we live in an amazing world.

再跑个题——我待会儿会回到基础问题——量子计算会不会对这一切造成干扰？

Another tangent, and I'll I'll come back to the basics, but does quantum computing throw a wrench into any of this?

这是个非常好的问题。

Very good question.

量子计算机有两类主要算法与密码学相关。

So quantum computers have two main, you know, families of algorithms that are relevant to cryptography.

一类是肖尔算法，这种算法能彻底破解某些特定数学问题的计算难度。

One is a Shor's algorithm, and Shor's algorithm is one that kind of completely breaks the hardness of some specific kinds of mathematical problems.

你可能听说过的是，它让因数分解变得非常容易。

So the one that you've probably heard of is it makes it very easy to factor numbers.

也就是说，可以找出需要相乘得到某个数的质因数，即使这个数非常大。

So, like, figure out kind of what prime factors are that kind of that you need to multiply together to get some number even if that number is extremely big.

Shor算法也可以用来破解椭圆曲线密码学。

Shor's algorithm can also be used to break elliptic curve cryptography.

它可以破解任何类型的隐藏序群。

It can break, like, any kind of hidden order groups.

它破坏了很多我们习惯使用的加密好东西。

Like, it breaks a lot of kind of cryptographic nice things that we're used to.

好消息是，对于Shor算法能破解的每种应用，我们已经知道量子安全的替代方案。

But the good news is that for every kind of major use of things that Shor's algorithm breaks, we already know of quantum proof alternatives.

对。

Right.

现在我们还没使用这些量子安全替代方案，因为在很多情况下它们的效率要低5到10倍，但密码学界普遍知道这一天终将到来，并且已经准备好必要时承受这个代价并切换方案。

Now the we don't use these quantum proof alternatives yet because in many cases, they're five to 10 times less efficient, but and the crypto industry in general kind of knows that this is coming eventually, and it's kind of ready to take the hit and switch to that stuff when we when we have to.

第二个与密码学相关的算法是格罗弗算法。

The second algorithm that is relevant to cryptography is Grover's algorithm.

格罗弗算法对人工智能领域的人来说可能更为熟悉。

And Grover's algorithm might even be more familiar to AI people.

它通常被描述为解决搜索问题的算法。

That's basically usually described as solving search problems.

其核心思想是：如果你需要找到一个满足特定属性的数字，

But the idea here is that if you have a problem of the form, find a number that satisfies some property.

那么经典计算机需要尝试n次才能找到，而量子计算机只需进行√n次运算。

Then if with a classical computer, you need to try n times before before you find a number, then with a quantum computer, you only need to do square root of n computations.

嗯。

Mhmm.

格罗弗算法理论上可用于挖矿，但存在两种可能性：

And Grovers could potentially be used for mining, but there's two possibilities here.

一种是格罗弗算法可用于挖矿，首个实现该算法的量子计算机将远超他人挖矿速度，我们将见证类似ASIC矿机问世时的场景——新型硬件迅速淘汰旧设备，最终形成新的平衡。

One is that Grovers could be used for mining, and whoever creates the first working quantum computer that could do Grovers will just mine way faster than everyone else, and we'll see another round of what we saw when a six came out, which is that kind of the new hardware just kind of dominated the old stuff, and then eventually it switched to a new equilibrium.

不过顺便说一句，是快很多，但不是指数级的快。

But by the way, way faster, not exponentially faster.

是平方级的快。

Quadratically faster.

平方级的快，我觉得这算不上是颠覆性的改变。

Quadratically faster, which is not sort of it's not game changing, I would say.

就像你说的，就像ASIC芯片那样，会

It's well, like ASICs, like you said, it would be

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

所以它不一定会彻底摧毁工作量证明机制。

So it would not necessarily break proof of work as a thing.

说得对。

That's right.

是啊。

Yeah.

现在另一种可能的情况是，量子计算机存在大量开销。

Now the other kind of possible world, right, is that quantum computers have a lot of overhead.

维持量子态涉及许多其他复杂性。

There's a lot of other complexity involved in maintaining quantum states.

而且正如我们最近意识到的，要让量子计算机真正运作，需要某种量子纠错技术，这大约需要一千个物理量子比特才能构成一个逻辑量子比特。

And there's also, as we've been realizing recently, making quantum computers re actually work requires kind of quantum error correction, which requires kind of a thousand real qubits per logical qubit.

因此很有可能出现这种情况：运行量子计算机的开销将超过格罗弗算法带来的加速优势，这虽然有点遗憾，但也意味着现有工作量证明机制仍能正常运行。

And so there's the very real possibility that the overhead of running a quantum computer will be higher than the speed up you get with Grovers, which would be kinda sad, but which would also mean that that given proof of work will just keep working fine.

说得太精彩了。

So beautifully put.

所以工作量证明是比特币的核心思想。

So so proof of work is, the core idea of Bitcoin.

在我们继续之前，还有其他核心思想吗？嗯...

Is there other core ideas before we kind of Mhmm.

谈谈以太坊的起源故事和核心理念？

Take a step towards the origin story and ideas of Ethereum?

比特币白皮书中还有哪些关键内容？

Is there other stuff that, were key to the white paper of Bitcoin?

首先是工作量证明，其次是用于验证交易的密码学技术，包括公钥和签名机制。

There's proof of work, and then there's just the cryptography and just kind of public keys and signatures that are used to verify transactions.

这两项是最核心的内容。

Those two are the big things.

那么起源故事是什么呢？

So then what is the origin story?

或许从人文角度来说，

Maybe the human side,

但也要谈谈以太坊的技术层面。

but also the technical side of Ethereum.

当然。

Sure.

我在2011年加入了比特币社区，最初就是从写作开始的。

So I joined the Bitcoin community in 2011, and I started by just writing.

我最早是为一个叫《比特币周刊》的网络平台撰稿，后来开始为《比特币杂志》写作。

I first wrote for this sort of online thing called Bitcoin Weekly, then I started writing for Bitcoin Magazine.

然后

And

抱歉打断一下。

Sorry to interrupt.

你有个有趣的故事，不知真假，说是你在《魔兽世界》的经历让你对中心化控制的弊端感到失望。

You have this funny kind of story, true or not, is that you were disillusioned by the downsides of centralized control from your experience with Wow World of Warcraft.

这是真事还是你只是幽默一下？

Is this is this true or you're just being witty?

我是说，

I mean,

事件是真的，但说这就是我投身去中心化的原因——这个说法是带着幽默色彩的。

the event is true, the fact that that's the reason I do decentralization is witty.

也许只是个小插曲。

May maybe just a small tangent.

你是否一直对中心化控制持怀疑态度？

Do have you always had a skepticism of centralized control?

是不是

Is that

在某种程度上是的。

To some degree.

对。

Yeah.

这种感觉是随着时间演变的，还是你一直认为去中心化控制是人类社会的未来核心？

Has that feeling evolved over time, or has that just always been a core feeling that decentralized control is the future of a human society?

自从我了解到这种可能性存在以来，这个概念就一直对我极具吸引力。

It's definitely been something that felt very attractive to me ever since I could have learned that such a thing is possible.

甚至在技术层面上也是可行的。

It's possible even technically.

太棒了。

So great.

你说你在2011年加入了比特币社区。

So you're you joined the Bitcoin community in 2011, you said.

你开始写作。

You began writing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

接下来呢？

So what's next?

开始写作，从高中转到大学，在大学度过了一年。

Started writing, moved from high school to university halfway in between that, spent a year in university.

然后在那一年的年底，我辍学全职投入比特币相关事务。

Then at the end of that year, I dropped out to to do Bitcoin things full time.

这包括继续为比特币杂志撰稿，同时也越来越多地参与软件开发项目。

And this was a combination of continuing to write Bitcoin magazine, but also increasingly work on software projects.

我花了大约六个月时间周游世界，走访不同的比特币社区。

And I traveled around the world for about six months and just going to different Bitcoin communities.

比如，我先去了新罕布什尔州，然后是西班牙，欧洲其他地区，以色列，再到旧金山。

Like, I went to first in New Hampshire, then Spain, other European places, Israel, then San Francisco.

一路上，我遇到了许多从事不同比特币项目的人。

And along the way, I have met a lot of other people that are working on different Bitcoin projects.

当我在以色列时，那里有一些非常聪明的团队，他们正在研究一些后来被人们称为比特币2.0的概念。

And when I was in Israel, there were some kind of very smart teams there that were working on ideas that people were starting to kind of call Bitcoin two point o.

其中之一就是彩色币，其核心理念是说：

So one of these was Sculver coins, which is basically saying that, hey.

我们不应该只把区块链用于比特币，还可以在上面发行其他类型的资产。

Let's not just use the blockchain for Bitcoin, but let's also, like, kind of issue other kinds of assets on it.

还有一个叫Mastercoin的协议，不仅支持发行资产，还支持许多其他功能，比如金融合约、域名注册等多项功能。

And then there was a protocol called Mastercoin that supported issuing assets but also supported many other things, like financial contracts, like domain name registration, and a lot of different things together.

我与这些团队共事了一段时间，很快意识到可以通过进一步通用化来改进这个Mastercoin协议。

And I spent some time working with these teams, and I quickly kind of realized that this MasterCoin protocol could be improved by kind of generalizing it more.

对吧？

Right?

所以我用的类比是，MasterCoin协议就像瑞士军刀。

So the mass the analogy I use is that the MasterCoin protocol was like the Swiss Army Knife.

它有25种不同的交易类型对应25种不同应用。

You have 25 different transaction types for 25 different applications.

但我意识到可以用更通用的功能来替换其中很多类型。

But what I realized is that you could replace a a bunch of them with things that are more general purpose.

比如其中一种替换方案是：可以用一个通用金融合约交易类型，替代三种特定金融合约交易类型，这个通用类型只需让你用数学公式指定各方应得金额。

So one of them was that you could replace, like, three transaction types for three types of financial contracts with a generic transaction type for a financial contract that just lets you specify a mathematical formula for kind of who much money each side gets.

顺便插一句，稍停一下。

By the way, just a small pause.

你刚才说的金融合约，这个术语。

What's you say financial contract, just the terminology.

合约是什么？

What is a contract?

什么是金融合约？

What's a financial contract?

一般来说，这是一种协议，一方或双方存入抵押品，然后根据某些条件——比如可能涉及资产价格——来决定后续操作。

So the is just generally an agreement where kind of either one or two parties kind of put collateral kind of in, and then they depending on a kind of certain conditions, like this could involve prices of assets.

这可能涉及双方的不同行为。

This could involve diff the actions of the two parties.

也可能涉及其他因素。

It could involve other things.

他们最终会根据发生的情况获得不同数量的资产。

They kind of get to the different amounts of of assets out that just depend on things that happened.

所以合约本质上就是金融合约的核心，它是金融系统中最基础的交互元素。

So a contract is really a financial contract is at the is at the core it's the it's the core interactive element of a financial system.

对。

Yeah.

是的，金融合约有很多不同的种类。

There's, yeah, there's many different kinds of financial contracts.

比如期权合约，就是赋予他人在特定时间段内以特定价格购买你持有资产的权利。

Like, there's things like options where you kind of give someone the right to buy a thing that you have for some specific price for some period of time.

还有差价合约，本质上是一种对赌协议——比如标的物每上涨1美元，我就给你7美元；每下跌1美元，你就给我7美元之类的。

There's contracts for difference where you basically are kind of making a bet that says, like, for every dollar this thing goes up, I'll give you $7, or for every dollar that thing goes down, you give me $7 or something like that.

而且

And

但核心在于这些合约必须具有强制执行力并值得信赖。

But the main idea that these contracts have to be enforced and trusted them.

对。

Yes.

完全正确。

Exactly.

你必须相信它们能在无人可信的系统中正常运作。

You have to trust that they will work out in a system where nobody can be trusted.

是的。

Yes.

这真是一个精妙复杂的系统。

This is such a beautiful complicated system.

好的。

Okay.

所以你试图将这种合约基础框架进行某种程度的泛化。

So so you were seeking to kinda generalize this basic framework of contracts.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那具体包含哪些内容呢？

So what does that entail?

那么从技术上讲，创建以太坊需要哪些步骤？

So what what technically are the steps to creating Ethereum?

当然。

Sure.

我想可以接着讲讲这个Mastercoin的故事。

So I guess just to kind of continue a bit with this Mastercoin story.

当然。

Sure.

最初是提出了一些关于如何将其通用化的想法。

So started by kind of giving ideas for how to generalize the thing.

最终这发展成了一个更完善的提案，简单来说就是：

And eventually, this turned into a much more kind of fully fledged proposal that just says, hey.

要不你把所有期货合约都废掉？

How about you scrap all your futures?

然后直接换成这种编程语言？

And instead, you just put in this programming language?

我把这个想法告诉他们后，他们的反应大概是：

And I gave this idea to them, and their response was something like, hey.

这很棒，但看起来太复杂了，短期内我们没法把它列入开发计划。

This is great, but this seems complicated, and this seems like something that we're not gonna be able to put onto our road map for a while.

而我当时的反应是：等等

And my response to this was like, wait.

你难道没意识到吗？这有多革命性啊？

Do you not realize how revolutionary this is?

好吧，那我就自己来做。

Well, I'll just go do it myself.

然后我……那个编程语言叫什么来着？

And then I What was the name of the programming language?

我就把它叫做终极脚本语言。

I just called it Ultimate Scripting.

太棒了。

Great.

之后我又经过几轮迭代，以太坊本身的构想才开始成形。

So then I went through a couple more rounds of iteration, and then the idea for Ethereum itself started to form.

这个构想的核心是：你只需要一个区块链，其基本单元就是我们所说的合约。

And the idea here is that you just have a blockchain where the core unit of the thing is what we call contracts.

这些账户可以持有资产并拥有内部存储，但由一段代码控制。

It's these accounts that can hold assets and have their own internal memory but that are controlled by a piece of code.

因此，如果我向某个合约发送一些以太币，那么唯一能决定这些以太币或以太坊内部货币后续去向的，就是该合约自身的代码。

And so if I send some ether to a contract, the only thing that can determine where that ether or the currency inside Ethereum goes after that is the code of that contract itself.

所以本质上，你将资产发送给计算机程序就变成了创建这类自动执行协议的范式。

And so, basically, you're kind of sending assets to computer programs becomes this kind of paradigm for creating these sort of agree self executing agreements.

自动执行。

Self executing.

代码成为合约的一部分真是太酷了。

It's so cool that code is sort of part of this contract.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是智能合约的含义。

So that that's what's meant by smart contracts.

是的。

Yeah.

那么构建这种东西有多难？

So how hard was it to build this kind of thing?

比预想的要难。

Harder than expected.

而且，最初我其实以为这只是个我会随便花几个月时间搞搞、发表后就回大学继续读书的项目。

And, originally, I actually thought that this would be a thing that I would kind of casually work on for a couple of months, publish, and then go back to university.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我发布了它，准确说是我发布了白皮书后，引起了不少人关注。

Then I released it, and a bunch of people or I released the white paper.

白皮书。

The white paper.

理念就在那里。

The idea is there.

对。

Yeah.

就是这个理念。

The idea.

那份白皮书。

The white paper.

很多人主动提出要帮忙。

A whole bunch of people came in offering to help.

有大量的人表示感兴趣，这完全出乎我的意料。

A huge number of people kind of expressed interest, and this was something I was totally not expecting.

然后我意识到这件事的规模会比我原先预想的要大得多。

And then I kind of realized that this would be something that's kind of much bigger than I had ever thought that it would be.

于是我们开始了更漫长的开发过程，努力打造一个能满足这些更高期望的产品。

And then we started on this kind of much longer development slog of making something that lives up to this sort of much higher level of expectations.

其中有哪些是根本性的软件工程挑战？

What are the some of the is it fundamentally, like, software engineering challenges?

确实如此。

It was.

社交方面？

Social?

好的。

Okay.

所以还有社交方面。

So there's And social.

那么，在这个过程中，你了解到关于人类文明和软件工程领域最有趣、最具挑战性的事情是什么？

So so what are the biggest interesting challenges that you've learned about human civilization and in g in software engineering through this process?

所以

So

我想对我来说的一个挑战是，我属于那种在学校里只受到善待的少数极客群体。

I guess one of the challenges for me is that, like, I'm one of the kind of apparently unusual geek schools that have never treated with anything but kindness in school.

是的。

Yes.

所以当我进入加密领域时，我某种程度上期望每个人都会同样地无私和友善。

And so when I got into crypto, kind of expected everyone would just kind of be the same, kind of altruistic and nice in that same way.

但我用来为这个项目寻找联合创始人的算法并不太理想。

But the kind of the algorithm that I used for finding cofounders for this thing was not very good.

这基本上就是计算机科学家所说的贪心算法。

It was sort of literally what computer scientists call the greedy algorithm.

就是前15个回复愿意帮忙的人成为了联合创始人。

It's sort of the first 15 people who replied back offering to help kind of are the cofounders.

哦，你是说，字面上那些最终会成为社区创始成员的人？

Oh, you mean, like, literally the the the people that four will form to be the the the founders, cofounders of the community?

这个算法。

The algorithm.

我喜欢你称之为算法的说法。

I like how you call it the algorithm.

是的。

Yeah.

结果就是，特别是当项目规模变得很大时，开始出现很多内斗，比如我希望这是个非营利项目，而有些人却想做成营利性的。

And so what happened was that these like, especially as the projects got really big, like, there started to be a lot of this kind of infighting, and there are a lot of like, I wanted the thing to be a nonprofit, and some of them wanted to be a for profit.

然后就开始出现完全无法共事的人。

And then there started to be people who were just totally unable to work with each other.

有些人试图通过各种方式为自己谋取利益。

There were people that were trying to get an advantage for themselves in a lot of different ways.

大约六个月后，这引发了一场重大的治理危机。

And this, just about six months later, led to this big governance crisis.

之后我们稍微调整了领导层，项目得以继续推进。

And then we kind of reshuffled leadership a bit, and then, the project kept on going.

又过了九个月，出现了第二次治理危机，接着是第三次。

Then nine months later, there was another governance crisis, and then there was a third governance crisis.

那么，有没有办法，如果你关注

And so Is there a way to if you're looking

人性化的一面，是否有方法优化加密货币世界的这一方面？

at the human side of things, is there a way to optimize this aspect of the cryptocurrency world?

看起来确实存在

It seems that there is

嗯。

Mhmm.

从我的角度看，这里涉及许多不同的性格、个性和自我意识。

From my perspective, there's a lot of different characters and personalities and egos.

就像你说的，我不知道你是否知道，我也倾向于认为世界上大多数人都是出于好意的。

And like you said, I don't know if you know, I also like to think that most of the world most of the people in the world are well intentioned.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这些意图的实现方式可能会显得...是的。

But the way those intentions are realized may perhaps come off as Yeah.

显得消极。

As as negative.

那么，关于为加密货币建立一个让所有人都能和谐共处的治理结构，这里是否存在一个充满希望的信息？

Like, what is there is there a hopeful message here about creating a governance structure for cryptocurrency that where everyone gets along.

经过大约四轮调整后，我认为我们实际上已经找到了一种看起来相当稳定且令人满意的方案。

And after about four rounds of reshuffling, I think we've actually come up with something that seems to be pretty stable and happy.

我想说，我确实认为大多数人都是出于好意的。

I think I mean, I definitely do think that most people are well intentioned.

我只是觉得，我喜欢去中心化的原因之一就是关于权力的本质——权力总会吸引那些自我膨胀的人，这就让极少数人能够毁掉太多事情。

I just think that, like, of the reasons why I like decentralization is just because there's, like, this thing about power where power attracts people with egos, and so that just allows us a very small percentage of people to just ruin so many things.

你认为自我意识有用处吗？

You think ego has a you think ego has a use?

比如，自我意识总是坏事吗？

Like, is ego always bad?

看起来

It seems like

有时候确实有用。

It sometimes does.

但以太坊研究团队那边，我感觉我们也发现了很多真正对技术本身感兴趣的优秀人才，而且整体情况似乎进展得相当顺利。

But then the Ethereum research team, I feel like we've found also kind of a lot, like, a lot of very good people that are just primarily just interested in things for the technology, and, you know, things seem to just generally be going quite well.

是啊。

Yeah.

当关注点和热情都集中在技术上时。

When you're when the focus and the passion is in the tech.

所以这是关于人的方面。

So on the so that's the human side of things.

技术方面呢，你学到了什么？

The technology side, like, what have you learned?

在技术层面，实现以太坊面临的最大挑战是什么？

What what have been the biggest challenges of bringing Ethereum to life on the technology side?

那么

So

我认为首先，你知道软件开发的第一定律——当有人给你一个时间表时，把时间单位换成更大的单位并加一。

I think, first of all, just, you know, there's, like, the first law of software development, which is that when someone gives you a timetable, switch the unit of time to the next largest unit of time and add one.

我们基本上就栽在这条定律上了。

And we basically fell victim to that.

所以原本预计三个月完成的事，最终花了将近二十个月。

And so instead of taking, like, three months, it ended up taking, like, twenty months to watch the thing.

我想这主要是低估了项目的技术复杂度。

And that was just, I think, underestimating the sheer technical complexity of the thing.

存在研究上的挑战。

There are research challenges.

比如，我们一开始就说要做的事情之一，就是从工作量证明转向权益证明。权益证明是另一种共识机制，它不需要浪费大量计算能力去解决那些毫无意义的数学难题，而是通过证明你拥有系统中的代币来获得一定程度的共识参与权。

Like, so for example, one of the things that we've been saying from the start that we would do, one is a switch from a proof of work to a proof of stake, where proof of stake is this alternative consensus mechanism where instead of having to waste a lot of computing power on solving these mathematical puzzles that don't mean anything, you kind of prove that you have access to coins inside of the system, and this then it gives you some level of participation in the consensus.

你能详细说明一下

Can you maybe elaborate on that

吗？

a little bit?

我理解工作量证明的概念。

I understand the idea of proof of work.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我知道很多人说权益证明的概念非常吸引人。

I know that a lot of people say that the idea of proof of stake is really appealing.

你能不能再详细解释一下这个概念？

Can you maybe linger on it a little longer, explain what it is?

好的。

Sure.

基本上，这个想法是，如果我锁定100个币，就相当于创建了一个所谓的虚拟矿工，系统会自动随机分配这个虚拟矿工在特定间隔内生成区块的权利。

So basically, the idea is, like, if I kind of lock up a 100, then I turn that into a kind of, quote, virtual miner, and the system itself kind of automatically and randomly assigns that in a virtual miner the right to create blocks at particular intervals.

如果另一个人有200枚代币并进行了锁定和解锁操作，那么他们就会获得一个相当于两倍规模的虚拟矿工。

And then if someone else has 200 coins and they lock and unlock there's 200 coins, then they get a kind of twice as big virtual miner.

他们将能够以两倍的频率创建区块。

They'll be able to create blocks twice as often.

它试图实现这一目标，但不同于工作量证明通过计算能力限制参与，而是通过锁定代币数量来限制参与。

So it tries to do similar things to proof of work, except instead of the thing of rate limiting your participation being your ability to crank out solutions to kind of hash challenges, the thing that relimits your participation is kind of how much coins you're locking into this mechanism.

好的

Okay.

真有趣

So interesting.

这样有限的参与不需要你运行大量计算。

So that that limited participation doesn't require you to run a lot of compute.

嗯

Mhmm.

这是否意味着你越富有，嗯

Does that mean that the richer you are Mhmm.

所以富人更像是，他们的身份更

So rich people, are more like, their identity is more

对

Right.

而这个稳定的，是的

And this stable Yeah.

可验证的，或者无论用什么术语描述

Verifiable or whatever whatever the right terminology is.

对

Right.

这确实是一个常见的批评

And this is definitely a common critique.

我通常对这个问题的回答是，工作量证明更像是那种系统。

I think my usual answer to this is that, like, proof of work is even more of that kind of system.

确实如此。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我并不是那个意思

Because I I didn't mean

在那句话中并非作为批评。

it in that statement as a criticism.

我认为你说得非常对。

I think you're exactly right.

那是等价的。

That's equivalent.

工作量证明是同样的道理，但在工作量证明中，还必须使用物理资源。

The proof of work is the same kind of thing, but in the proof of work, have to also use physical resources.

是的。

Yes.

还要烧掉电脑、树木等等这些东西。

And burn computers and burn trees and all of that stuff.

有没有办法通过权益证明来干扰系统？

Is there a way to mess with the system over the proof of proof of stake?

有的，但你得再次拥有系统中很大一部分

There is, but you will once again need to have a very large portion of all

被锁定的代币才能做任何坏事。

the coins that are locked in the system to do anything bad.

明白了。

Got it.

所以是的。

So yeah.

说到这个，也许稍微跑个题。

And just to that, maybe take a small tangent.

对加密货币的一个批评在于，我认为，对于工作量证明机制来说

One of the criticisms of cryptocurrency is the fact that, I guess, for the proof of work mechanism

嗯

Mhmm.

你必须在全球范围内消耗大量能源

You have to use so much energy in the world.

是的

Yes.

权益证明机制的动机之一就是为了摆脱这种情况吗？

Is one of the motivations of proof of stake is to move away from this?

毫无疑问

Definitely.

比如，你对这个问题的看法是什么？也许我只是了解不够

Like, what's your sense of the maybe I'm just under informed.

嗯

Mhmm.

这是否确实对环境造成了影响？

Is there, like, legitimately environmental impact from this?

是的。

Yeah.

最新的数据显示，比特币消耗的能源相当于整个奥地利国家的用量，或者类似这样的规模。

So the latest thing was that Bitcoin consumed as much energy as the country of Austria or something like that.

没错。

Yeah.

而以太坊目前，大概，

And then Ethereum is, like,

其能耗可能只比比特币低半个数量级左右。

right now, maybe only, like, half an order of magnitude smaller than Bitcoin.

我听过你谈论以太坊2.0。

I've heard you talk about, Ethereum two point o.

那么以太坊2.0的愿景究竟是什么？

So what's the what's the dream of Ethereum two point o?

权益证明机制目前的进展如何？嗯。

What's the the status of proof of stake as the mechanism that Mhmm.

以太坊正在向这个方向迈进吗？

Ethereum moves towards?

另外，在加密货币内部，你们是如何转向不同的共识机制的？

And also, how do you move to a different mechanism of consensus within within a cryptocurrency?

以太坊2.0是我们长期以来希望实现的一系列重大升级的集合。

So Ethereum two point o is a collection of major upgrades that we've wanted to do to Ethereum for quite some time.

其中两大升级，一是权益证明，另一个是我们称为分片的技术。

The two big ones, one is proof of stake, and the other is what we call sharding.

分片解决了区块链的另一个问题，即可扩展性。

Sharding solves another problem with blockchains, which is scalability.

分片的原理是：网络中的每个参与者不再需要亲自下载和验证每笔交易，而是只需处理一小部分交易。

And what sharding does is it basically says instead of every participant in the network having to personally download and verify every transaction, Every participant in the network only downloads and verifies a small portion of transactions.

然后通过随机分配的方式决定每个参与者处理多少工作量。

And then you kind of randomly distribute who gets how much work.

由于分配是随机的，它仍具有这样的特性：你需要网络的大部分节点才能破坏任何分片内的操作，但整个系统仍然具有很高的冗余性和安全性。

And because the of how the distribution is random, it still has the property that you need a large portion of the entire network to corrupt what's going on inside of any shard, but the system is still kind of very redundant and very secure.

这太棒了。

That's brilliant.

实现这个有多难？实现权益证明又有多难？

How how hard is that to implement, and how hard is proof of stake to implement?

比如，在技术层面上...

Like, on a technical level Yeah.

软件层面。

Software level.

权益证明和分片技术都很有挑战性。

Proof of stake and sharding are both challenging.

我认为分片技术更具挑战性一些。

I'd say sharding is a bit more challenging.

原因是权益证明更像是共识层运作方式的一种改变。

The reason is that proof of stake is kind of just a change to, like, how the consensus layer works.

分片技术同时做到了这两点，但它还改变了网络层的运作方式。

Sharding does both that, but it's also a change to the networking layer.

原因在于，如果在网络层仍沿用当前的做法——即所有信息都会广播传播，意味着一旦有人发布内容，网络层上所有其他客户端节点都会接收到——那么分片就失去了意义。

The reason is that sharding is kind of pointless if at the networking layer you still do what you do today, which is you kind of gossip everything, which means that if someone publishes something, every other node in the client hears it, like, from on the networking layer.

因此，我们需要建立子网络系统，具备快速切换子网络的能力，并让子网络之间能够相互通信。

And so instead, we have to have kind of subnetworks and the ability to quickly switch between subnetworks and have the subnetworks talk to each other.

这些在技术上都是可行的，但架构更为复杂，而且这绝对是

And this is all doable, but it's a more complex architecture, and it's definitely the sort of

加密货币领域尚未实现的技术。

thing that has not yet been done in cryptocurrency.

目前加密货币中大部分网络层运作方式就像是在大喊大叫。

So most most of the networking layer in cryptocurrency is you're shouting.

你就像是在广播消息，而这更像是临时组建的网络。

You're, like, broadcast messages, and this is more like ad hoc networks.

对，就是这样。

Like Yeah.

你在更小的群体内进行广播

You're shouting within smaller groups.

更小的群体，但你们是有一堆子网络吗？就像...没错

Smaller group, but do you have, like, a bunch of subnet, like Exactly.

需要在这些子网络之间切换...天啊

That you have to switch between oh, man.

我很想看看...这是个绝妙的主意 嗯哼

I'd love to see the so it's a beautiful idea Mhmm.

从图论角度来看是这样，但具体到软件层面...谁来负责呢？

So from a graph theoretic perspective, but just the software that like, who's responsible?

是以太坊项目组吗？相关开发人员会负责实现吗？

Is the Ethereum project, like, the people involved, would they be implementing?

这实际上是...这可是正经的软件工程

Like, what's the actual know, this is, like, legit software engineering.

具体要怎么做？谁来负责？

Who like, how does that work?

人们如何协作完成这类项目？

How do people collaborate, build that kind of project?

这几乎就像是...有没有一个软件工程负责人？

Is is this, like, almost like, is there a a a software engineering lead?

有吗？嗯。

Is there Mhmm.

这像是一个正规的大型开源项目吗？

Is, like, is it a legit, almost, like, large scale open source project?

有的。

There is.

对。

Yeah.

我们团队有位叫Danny Ryan的成员非常出色，各方面都很优秀。

So we have someone named Danny Ryan on our team who's just been brilliant and been great all around.

他可以说是事实上的开发协调人。

And and he is a kind of de facto kind of development coordinator, I guess.

这就像你得为这些事情发明职位头衔。

It's like you have to invent job titles for this stuff.

对吧？

Right?

原因是，你看，我们还有一种独特的组织结构——以太坊基金会本身在内部进行研究，但实际实施则由独立的团队完成，这些团队是独立的公司，分布在世界各地，比如澳大利亚这样的有趣地方。

The reason is that, look, we also have this unique kind of organizational structure where the Ethereum Foundation itself kind of does research in house, but then the actual implementation is done by independent teams that are separate companies, and they're located all around the world in, you know, like, fun places like Australia.

所以你需要进行几乎不间断的协调工作，让这些人互相沟通、实施规范，确保大家对正在发生的事情以及如何解释不同事项达成共识。

And so you kind of just need a bunch of almost nonstop cat herding to just keep getting these people to talk to each other and implement the spec, make sure that everyone agrees on what's going on and kind of how to interpret different things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么距离以太坊2.0实现这两种机制还有多久？

So how far into the future are we from these two mechanisms in Ethereum two point o?

考虑到你之前提到的软件项目普遍存在的拖延问题，你对时间线有什么看法？

Like, what's what's your sense of the timeline keeping in mind the previous comment you made about the sort of, general curse of software projects?

以太坊2.0分为三个阶段。

So Ethereum two point o is split into three phases.

所以第零阶段只是创建一个权益证明网络，实际上它最初是与工作量证明网络分开的，以便给它时间成长和完善自己。

So phase zero just creates a proof of stake network, and it's actually separate from kind of proof of the proof of work network at the beginning just to kind of give it time to grow and improve itself.

人们能

Do people get

选择吗？

to choose?

抱歉打断一下。

Sorry to interrupt.

我想问的是，人们能选择

Do people get to choose, I guess,

如果他们愿意的话，可以迁移到哪种共识机制。

which which consensus to move over if they want to.

然后第一阶段会增加分片功能，但仅限于数据存储的分片，不包括计算分片。

Then phase one adds sharding, but it only adds sharding of data storage and not sharding of computation.

之后是合并阶段，届时现有ETH 1系统中的账户、智能合约等所有活动内容都会被剪切粘贴到ETH 2中，然后工作量证明链就会被弃用。

And then after that, there is the merger phase, which is where the kind of the accounts, kind of smart contracts, like, all of the kind of activity on the existing ETH 1 system just kind of gets cut and pasted into ETH 2, and then the proof of work chain gets forgotten.

然后，所有之前存在于那里的东西都会继续在权益证明系统中运行。

And then and things all the things that were living there before just kind of continue living inside of the proof of stake system.

就时间线而言，第零阶段已基本完成实施，现在只剩大量安全审计和测试工作。

So for timelines, phase zero has been kind of almost fully implemented, and now it's just a matter of a whole bunch of security auditing and testing.

根据我的经验，现在感觉我们处于类似于最初以太坊发布前四个月的阶段。

My own experience is that right now, it feels like we're at about a phase comparable to when we were doing the original Ethereum launch when we were maybe about four months away from launch.

所以这只是个直觉判断。

So that's just a hunch then.

你无法确定，这只是个直觉。

You can't That's just a hunch.

是的。

Yeah.

要知道，就像人们从Python 2迁移到Python 3花了超过十年时间。

So how you know, it took it took, like, over a decade for people to move from Python two to Python three.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对于从当前阶段零转向不同共识机制的转变，你认为会有一个剧烈的阶段跃迁吗？人们会直接跳转到这个更好的机制上吗？

How do you see the move from, like, at this phase zero of for for different consensus mechanism, do you see there being a drastic phase shift in people just kinda jumping to this better mechanism?

在阶段零，我不认为会有太多人参与，因为在阶段零和阶段一，新链是刻意设计成这样的，它没有开启太多功能。

So in phase zero, I don't expect too many people to do much because in phase zero and phase one, the new chain, they get it deliberately and it doesn't have too much functionality turned on.

对。

Right.

就像，如果你想成为权益证明验证者，你可以开始准备。

It's they're just like, if you want to be a proof of stake validator, you can get things started.

如果你想为其他区块链应用存储数据，也可以开始准备。

If you want to store data for, like, other blockchain applications, you can get started.

但现有应用基本上会继续在ETH 1上运行。

But existing applications will largely keep living on ETH 1.

当合并发生时，这个操作会一次性完成。

And then when the merger happens, then the merger is a operation that happens all at once.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是共识系统的一个优势，一方面你需要协调升级，但另一方面升级是可以被协调的。

So that's one of the benefits of a consensus system that, like, on the one hand, you have to coordinate the upgrade, but on the other hand, the upgrade can be coordinated.

顺便问一下，Casper FFG是什么？

So what's Casper FFG, by the way?

Casper FFG是我们用于权益证明的共识算法。

Casper FFG is the consensus algorithm that we are using for the proof of stake.

Casper FFG有什么特别有趣的地方吗？

Is there something interesting specific about Casper FFG?

比如它有什么精妙之处？

Like, some beautiful aspect of it that's

确实有。

There is.

Casper FFG结合了两种不同的Gazette算法设计流派。

So Casper FFG combines together kind of two different schools of, like, Gazette's algorithm design.

这两种主要的设计流派分别是：一种是50%容错但依赖于网络同步性的。

So the general two different schools of the set design are, right, one is 50% fault tolerant but dependent on network synchrony.