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好了，各位。
Alright, y'all.
大家聚过来，因为来自‘姐妹对决’的Monet X Change要宣布一个消息。
Gather around because Monet X Change from sibling rivalry is here with an announcement.
本期播客由Google Gemini赞助播出。
This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Google Gemini.
听着，Google的姑娘们说：‘Monet，告诉孩子们。’
Now listen, the girls over at Google said, Monet, tell the children.
所以我告诉你们，美国大学生可以免费使用Google Gemini Pro计划一年。
So I'm telling you, US college students get Google Gemini's Pro plan free for one year.
用世界上最好的模型进行多模态理解。
Use the best model in the world for multimodal understanding.
无论你是上传视频获取演讲反馈，上传作业照片寻求帮助，还是转录错过的课堂笔记，Gemini 3 Pro都能帮到你。
So whether you're uploading a video to get feedback on your presentation, uploading a photo of your homework to ask for help, or transcribing notes from a lecture you missed, Gemini three Pro can help.
宝贝，如果我大学时有这个，哦，那我简直无人能挡。
And baby, if I had this in college, oh, she would have been unstoppable.
想象一下。
Picture it.
莫奈在图书馆里，上传我的音乐理论作业图片，就像在说‘Gemini，帮帮这位天后吧’，或者录制排练视频寻求反馈，而不是在练习室里哭上三个小时。
Monet exchanged in the library, uploading pictures of my music theory homework like Gemini, please help a diva out, or recording my rehearsal videos for feedback instead of crying at the practice room for three hours.
这本来会改变人生的。
This would have been life changing.
现在回到正题。
Now back to the goods.
立即注册，获取更多访问权限：谷歌最精准的Gemini 3 Pro模型、无限图片上传、专业级图片编辑、Notebook LM更高限额、Gmail和Docs中的Gemini功能、2TB存储空间等更多福利。
Sign up to get more access to Google's most accurate model Gemini three Pro, unlimited image uploads, pro level image editing, higher limits in Notebook LM, Gemini in Gmail and Docs, two terabytes of storage, and more.
你没听错，整整2TB。
You heard me, two terabytes.
足够存储所有声乐练习视频、《变装皇后》造型，还有你阿姨发来的每一张植物照片。
That's enough space to store every vocal warm up, Drag Race look, and every photo your aunt sends you of her plants.
访问gemini.google/students了解更多信息并注册。
Visit gemini.google/students to learn more and sign up.
条款适用。
Terms apply.
对我来说，当我感到非常阳刚时，我会觉得特别有玩心。
For me, when I'm feeling really masculine, I feel really playful.
我特别喜欢保护女性气质这个概念。
I love the idea of getting to protect the feminine.
我喜欢那种风流倜傥的感觉。
I like the idea of being suave.
这就是我真正感受到自己阳刚之气的时刻。
Like, that's when I'm feeling really in my masculinity.
当我感到女性化时，通常是在担任领导角色的时候。
When I'm feeling feminine, it's usually when I'm taking on a leadership role.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, y'all.
欢迎回到《Made It Out》节目。
Welcome back to Made It Out.
今天，我邀请到了大家最期待的嘉宾——ER Fightmaster。
Today, I'm here with a top requested guest, ER Fightmaster.
你出演过《实习医生格蕾》和《瘦长》等电视剧。
You are on TV, Grey's Anatomy, Shrill.
你还是一位音乐人。
You're a musician.
他们有个乐队叫Fightmaster。
They have a band called Fightmaster.
你同时是活动家、作家和播客主持人。
You are an activist, a writer, a podcast host.
欢迎大家收听他们的播客《Jocular》。
Check out their podcast, Jocular.
你能来到这里我真的很感激，可以和你聊聊性别话题、社会对性别的看法，以及这些观念如何仍在影响我们——即使我们身为酷儿群体。
And I'm just so grateful for that you're here and that I get to talk to you about gender and society's view on gender and how it still affects us even when we're queer.
能和我聊聊你的成长背景和家乡吗？
Will you tell me about where you grew up, where you come from?
我在俄亥俄州的辛辛那提长大，那里现在很酷，但过去完全不是这样。
I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, which is now very cool and was not at all.
那里非常、非常中西部风格。
It was like very, very Midwestern.
我不知道。
I I don't know.
我觉得我度过了一个非常简单的九十年代童年，以一种典型美国白人的方式。
I feel like I had a really simple, like, nineties childhood in a, like, white American way.
我们从未见过同性恋者。
What we weren't ever seeing were gay people.
所以那部分话题从未被提及。
So that was not a part of the conversation.
对。
Right.
我不认为我当时对自己与别人有何不同有任何明确的概念。
I don't think I really had any clear understanding of being different from anybody Mhmm.
直到我离开了辛辛那提。
Until I left Cincinnati.
这就像是缺乏接触的机会。
It's just like a lack of exposure.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果说有什么的话，我当时以为我只是患有很多心理疾病，比如，'哦，我只是太抑郁了'。
If anything, I thought I was, like, just suffering from a lot of, like, mental illness where I was like, oh, I'm just I'm so depressed.
我长期感到孤独。
I'm so chronically lonely.
我一直都很悲伤。
I'm so sad all the time.
那种痛彻心扉的感觉，却完全不明白为什么。
Like, aching, aching, aching, but had no understanding of, like, why.
你有为此寻求过心理健康方面的帮助吗？
Did you ever, like, seek out mental health help for that?
还是说你只是默默忍受着这一切？
Or was it just kind of something that you were suffering in silence or
绝对是默默忍受——我一直是个搞笑的孩子，觉得逗别人笑非常重要。
Definitely suffering in silence was always a funny kid and found that like really important to be funny for other people.
所以我经历的任何事都尽量保持私密。
And so anything that I experienced, I tried to keep very private.
直到最近几年我才开始更多谈论心理健康，因为有太多关注我的孩子正经历这些感受却可能无人倾诉。
It's only in the last few years that I've started to talk more about mental health because I have so many kids that follow me that are having that those feelings and might not be having that conversation.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以你想为孩子们示范成年人的样子——我不想在情绪低落、工作过度、感到极度疲惫、非常孤独或严重抑郁时感到羞耻。是的，我想告诉孩子们这很正常。
And so you just wanna, like, model adulthood, which is I wanna not feel ashamed when I'm having a dip or when I'm feeling overworked or when I'm feeling incredibly fatigued or very lonely or super depressed or Yeah, I want to model for kids that that's okay.
事实上，如果当初我能谈论这些，可能会更早认清自我。
And actually that if I'd had the ability to talk about that, I might have realized things about myself sooner.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
而不是假设我的存在本身就有问题。
Instead of assuming that there was just something inherently wrong with my existence.
那你是什么时候开始意识到自己是酷儿的？
So when did you start to realize that you were queer?
嗯，这个答案总是很疯狂，因为我14岁时就有女朋友了。
Well, this is always a wild answer because I had a girlfriend when I was 14.
而且我们当时有性行为。
And we were sexually active.
但我们没有任何榜样可循。
But we did not have any representation.
所以我们根本不知道自己在做什么。
So we did not know what we were doing.
说真的，我们当时甚至没想过自己是同性恋。
Like legitimately, we're just, it didn't even cross my mind that we were gay.
但我确实明白这事不能告诉任何人。
But I did understand that we couldn't tell anybody.
我所有的女性朋友都在和我们年级的其他男生约会。
And all of my girlfriends were dating, you know, other guys in our grade.
而我在和我的旅行篮球队里的控球后卫约会。
And I was dating, you know, my point guard that from my, like, travel basketball team.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
而且这样也很方便，因为我就像那种孩子——是的，她真的在另一所学校上学。
And so it was also it was convenient because I was one of those kids that was like, yeah, she, you know, she literally did go to another school.
对。
Right.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what mean?
而我从未谈论过这件事。
And I just never talked about it.
我不知道该怎么形容。
And I was not I don't know.
我觉得她当时确实是我主要的依恋对象。
I I think she was like really also my primary attachment figure at the time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为我父母当时正在经历一场相当激烈的离婚。
Because my parents were going through a pretty wild divorce.
所以对我来说她就是我的一切，而那些和男生交往的女孩们对我来说并非如此。
And so she was everything in to me in a way that I didn't see the girls that were dating guys.
她们对男生并没有那种感觉。
They didn't feel that way about them.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就像，布兰妮和大卫他们之间的经历深度远不及我和她之间那样深刻。
Like, like, Brittany and David weren't having the depths of experience that I was having with her.
所以我当时真的觉得，我们把最好的友谊提升到了另一个层次。
And so I I really was like, oh, we've just taken best friendship to a different level.
但我们不能告诉任何人，因为可能觉得这很恶心。
But we can't tell anyone because I maybe it's gross.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是啊。
Yeah.
我完全理解那种感受。
I totally get that.
我在德州长大的。
I grew up in Texas.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我也有过和女孩彻底亲热的经历。
And I have these experiences of full on hooking up with girls.
我当时就觉得，哦，这不过是种经历罢了。
And I was just like, oh, that's just something.
我们就是这么做的。
That's what we do.
这就是我的习惯。
That's just something I do.
是啊。
Yeah.
我就是这样和朋友相处的。
That's what I do with my friends.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我不明白为什么大家都对这事大惊小怪。
I don't know why everyone's being so fucking weird about it.
那是在这段关系之后吗？你什么时候才意识到问题的？
So was it after this relationship you like, when did you have the come to?
我搬到了芝加哥。
I moved to Chicago.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后我开始学习女性与性别研究课程。
And I I started taking women and gender studies.
芝加哥是我第一次置身于黑人、白人和棕色人种比例如此均衡的空间。
And it Chicago was the first time that I'd ever been in spaces that were, like, equally as black as they were white and equally as brown as they were white.
德保罗大学里有好多酷儿孩子。
And there were so many queer kids at DePaul.
事实上那种环境让我感到自在多了。
And of it actually felt so much more comfortable to me.
我完全没有那种对城市的抵触或恐惧感。
I didn't have this kickback where I was in any way afraid of the city.
我就像花朵一样瞬间绽放了。
I just immediately bloomed.
所以当我看到自己可能成为的样子和可能所处的环境时，我就立刻那么做了。
And so there was once I saw what I could be and the kind of environment I could be in, that's what I just immediately did.
这一切发生得很快。
It happened fast.
你知道吗，这很有趣，因为我家乡的很多人会说，天啊，你搬去了洛杉矶，那一定很可怕吧。
You know, it's so funny because a lot of people will like from home where I grew up are like, oh my god, you moved to LA and like, it must have been so scary.
而我...我当初搬到了洛杉矶市中心，当我
And I and I moved Downtown LA when I
第一次搬去
first moved
那确实很可怕。
to That is scary.
但我很喜欢那里。
But I loved it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我当时就觉得，这是我到过的最好的地方。
I was like, this is the best place I've ever been.
但这就像一种视野的冲击。
But it was like this exposure thing.
在达拉斯时，我从未见过无家可归的人。
Like in Dallas, I had never seen an unhoused person.
没错。
Yes.
然后你搬到洛杉矶就会觉得，哇。
And then you move to LA and you're like, woah.
就像突然被一个全新的世界击中，对阶级有了新的认知。
Like you're just hit with a whole new world and this understanding of class, you know.
所以这完全是不同的体验。
And, you know, so it's just totally different.
但奇怪的是，当你接触到这些后，我们俩就突然都适应了？
But it's weird how it seems like you're exposed and then oh, we both then just came out?
嗯，我觉得你提到的这个现象，我们确实会拿来调侃妈妈那一辈人，因为她们一进入那种环境就会下意识地把包捂得更紧。
Well, I do think, like, what you're talking about is something that I you know, we kind of make fun of, like, our mom's generation because they are the you know, hold their purse closer when they enter that environment.
而我们不会有那种反应。
And we didn't have that reaction.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我确实认为，如果你在一个全是白人、全是中上层阶级、全是直人的环境中感到舒适，
And so I do think that if you're comfortable in an environment that is all white, that is all middle to upper class, that is all straight.
如果你在那个环境里感到自在，并且被告知那是最美好、最安全、最理想的环境，那么当你去其他地方时，你肯定会紧捂钱包。
If you're comfortable and in that environment and you've been told that that is the best, safest, most wonderful environment, then when you go anywhere else, you're gonna clutch your purse.
但如果你在那个环境里一直感到不自在，那么其他任何地方对你来说反而会更舒适。
But if you're in that environment and you're constantly uncomfortable, then any place else is going to feel more comfortable for you.
这个观点真是发人深省。
That's pretty mind blowing.
我不知道
I don't know a
我高中认识的酷儿孩子里很少有人留在俄亥俄州
lot of queer kids that I went to high school with that stayed in Ohio.
而我很多异性恋朋友都留下来了
That all of my straight a lot of my straight friends did.
留在那里的人——不是要贬低俄亥俄
All the people that stayed there, which is no shitting on Ohio.
好吧去你妈的JD·万斯
All the well, fuck you, JD Vance.
但留在那里的人确实过得很自在
But all the people that stayed there were really comfortable there.
他们安定下来，结婚生子
And they settled down and they got married and they had babies.
而那些不适应的人离开了，找到了让他们舒适的环境
And the ones that weren't comfortable left and they found environments they were comfortable in.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
哇。
Wow.
我是说，这让我想通了很多事，因为我有时对家乡的人感到这种挫败感。
I mean, that unlocks a lot for me because I feel like I I feel this frustration sometimes with people back home.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为我就在想，你们怎么能这么安于现状？
Because I'm like, why are you so okay with this?
你们怎么能甘于过这样的生活？
Why are you okay with living this life?
而我想你刚刚找到了症结所在，就是我对这种情况非常不能释怀，
And I think you just found the disconnect where I'm like very unforgiving of that,
但他们觉得无所谓。
but they're fine.
他们乐在其中。
They love it.
没错。
Right.
你知道，这就像是西蒙娜·薇依的理论——那位法国哲学家，我特别痴迷于她提出的'爱一个人如其所是'的理念。
You you it's it's this like Simone Weil thing, this French philosopher, and I'm just obsessed with this idea that she has of loving somebody as such.
我们总是处在这样一种人际关系中：我们爱的是对方的潜力。
We are, like, constantly in relationships with people where we're loving them for their potential.
总觉得如果他们能看见我们所见的，就能过上更好的生活。
And, you know, we just think if they maybe they could see what we saw, they could have a much better existence.
但事实上，如果你爱一个人如其所是，就不会因为你白人家庭在德州郊区生活得安逸自在、无需紧握手提包而感到困扰。
But actually, if you love somebody as such for who they are, it's not bothersome that your white family feels really comfortable in the suburbs of Texas not having to clutch their purse.
这其实没有任何问题。
There's actually nothing wrong with that.
好吧。
Okay.
他们就在那里。
They're there.
问题在于他们用自己那套价值体系强加于人。
The problem is when they use those that value system that they have there and they impose it on other people.
对吧？
Right?
但他们对自己所处环境感到舒适本身并无过错。
But there's nothing inherently wrong with them feeling comfortable where they are.
爱他们本真的存在状态。
Loving loving their existence as such.
问题在于他们认为所有人都应该...是的。
It's just them thinking that everyone should Yes.
认同那种感受。
Feel that way.
没错。
Yeah.
正是这种强加于人的做法让它变得糟糕。
That's it's the imposition that makes it fucked up.
哇。
Wow.
谢谢你来到这里。
Thank you for being here.
我很喜欢这次对话。
I'm loving this conversation.
我们才聊了五分钟。
We're five minutes in.
我喜欢
I love
在这里。
being here.
谢谢你的酒。
Thank you for this wine.
我想让你知道我要了冰块。
I want you to know that I asked for ice cubes.
现在它们已经融化了，但之前确实在里面。
They're melted now, but they were in there.
那么当时在课堂上公开身份、找到自我后，又不得不回到那个环境并重新介绍自己，是什么感觉？
So what was it like then having the exposure in this class, figuring yourself out and then having to go back into that environment and kind of reintroduce yourself?
嗯，就像有些人当我更改代词和名字时，他们坚持要用我出生时取的那个让我感觉不好的名字，他们坚称——通过继续使用那个名字，可以证明他们最了解我。
Well, it's like the people that when when I changed my pronouns and I changed my name, the people that insisted that the name that I was given at birth that did not feel good to me, that they insisted that that's actually- they could prove that they knew me best by continuing to use that name.
这就是我回家时的感受。
That's how I felt when I went home.
有些人因为我的成长而非常不满，因为他们认识过去的我。
That there were people that were very unhappy with my growth because they actually knew me when.
我怎敢自以为是到可以离开这个地方变成另一个人？
And how dare I think I'm so big that I can just leave this place and become somebody else?
实际上，你知道，那个环境并不利于我的成长。
Where actually it's, you know, that's that environment was not conducive to my becoming.
对吧？
Right?
所以我去了别的地方，在那里我感到自在。
So I went somebody somewhere else and I became comfortable.
然后我带着解脱回到他们身边，想告诉他们好消息。
And then I came back to them with with relief to be like, good news.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我弄明白自己是谁了。
I figured out who I am.
但他们早已对他们所理解的我感到非常满意。
But they were already very comfortable with who they understood me to be.
所以有时候你只能放手让那些人离开。
And so sometimes you just have to let those people go.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为，当我和酷儿孩子们谈论他们的父母或家人等不能立即适应的情况时...
And I think that people like, when I'm talking to queer kids about, you know, their parents or their families or whatever that are not adapting right away.
我对那些自以为了解你、只接受他们感到舒适的那个版本的人有极大的耐心。
I have a lot of patience for people that assumed that they knew that the version of you that they were comfortable with is the one that is true.
对这种情况我有极大的耐心。
Have a lot of patience for that.
保持耐心并不意味着我必须忍受这种处境。
Having patience for it does not mean I have to be around it.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
这就像是关于界限的理念。
That is like the idea of boundaries.
界限的设定不必带有残忍的意图。
Boundaries don't have to be so they don't have to be cruel intentioned.
他们大可以说，我理解你们更适应13岁那个想自杀的我，而不是现在32岁真实的我。
They can just go, I I understand that you were way more comfortable with who I was when I was 13 and wanted to kill myself than who I am at 32.
我现在非常快乐。
I'm very happy.
对吧。
Right.
所以我要把你们留在这里了。
And so I'm gonna leave you here.
哇。
Wow.
而我们会去那边。
And we'll go over there.
很公平。
Fair.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得这有点像那种情况，尤其是和家人相处时。
I feel like it's kind of like that, especially I feel with family.
就像我们互相给对方贴标签，甚至都不需要涉及酷儿或性别问题。
Like, we put each other into these boxes and doesn't even have to be anything having to do with queerness or gender.
比如说，我哥哥是个运动员。
It's just like, oh, well, my brother, for example, is an athlete.
他就是那种运动健将。
He's he's the jock.
而我妹妹是家里聪明的那个。
And my sister is the smart one.
她有两个学位，你知道吗？
She has two degrees, you know?
我上大学时一直不知道自己想做什么。
And I go to college and I never knew what I wanted to do.
所以我就成了家里那个糊里糊涂的人，你懂的。
So I was kind of the mess, you know.
当我带着一个挑战那些固有标签或家庭结构的新身份回家时，确实很艰难。
And it's like when I come back home with a different identity that challenges that that kind of those those boxes or that that structure, that family map, it's kind of hard.
要坚持立场不重新陷入那些框架，并坚持说‘不，这才是我现在的样子’并不容易。
And it's hard not to fall right back into that and stand your ground and be like, no, this is actually what I am now.
这可能会很艰难。
And that can be tough.
你正在撼动整个家庭体系。
You're disrupting an entire family system.
我是说，这确实如此。
That I mean, that is true.
对吧？
Right?
也许这就是我们能承担的一点责任。
Like, maybe that's like the little responsibility that we can take.
要知道，责任并不意味着过错。
And it doesn't you know, responsibility doesn't mean fault.
这仅仅意味着我要为改变整个家庭系统负责。
It just is I'm I'm responsible for changing an entire family system.
他们了解自己，尤其是那些被认为更符合常规的人。
They know themselves, especially people that are identified as more normative.
他们通常通过与他人的对立来认识自己。
They know themselves usually in opposition to the other.
所以他们知道自己的异性恋身份。
So they know their straightness.
他们能感受到自己的异性恋特质。
They can feel their straightness.
他们能感受到自己的男性气质。
They can feel their maleness.
他们能感受到自己的特权，因为他们看着你就知道你是不同的性别。
They can feel their privilege because they can look at you and see that you're a different sex.
你，你是不同的性别认同。
You, you're a different gender.
你，你的收入不同。
You, you have a different income.
你，你的才智不同。
You, you have a different intellect.
他们是恒定的。
They are constant.
但如果你问他们是谁，他们可能无法像描述你那样轻易地描述自己。
But if you ask them who they are, they might not be able to describe it as easily as they can describe what you are.
哇。
Wow.
因为你实际上一直在负责构建他们的身份。
Because you've actually been responsible for building their identity.
是啊。
Yeah.
我妹妹有点傻乎乎的。
My sister's kind of a ditz.
嗯，你显然不是个糊涂虫。
Well, you're obviously not a ditz.
比如，你有个播客节目，会邀请不同观点的人参与，因为你善于倾听所以会向他们提问。
Like, you have a podcast where you bring people in from different perspectives and you ask them questions because you're a good listener.
这很明显，你不是个白痴。
That's obviously, you're not an an idiot.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
但如果他们必须承认你也有才智，这可能会破坏你们家庭体系的平衡。
But that might be disruptive to your family system if they have to understand that you too have an intellect.
哇。
Wow.
我正在学习到好多东西。
I am just learning so much.
我知道。
I know.
我正在这里默默记笔记呢。
I'm like taking mental notes here.
好了，各位。
Alright, y'all.
都围过来，因为来自《姐妹竞争》的Monet X Change要宣布一个消息。
Gather around because Monet X Change from sibling rivalry is here with an announcement.
本集播客由Google Gemini赞助播出。
This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Google Gemini.
听着，Google的姑娘们说，Monet，告诉孩子们，所以我来转告你们。
Now listen, the girls over at Google said, Monet, tell the children, so I'm telling you.
美国大学生可免费使用Google Gemini专业版一年。
US college students get Google Gemini's pro plan free for one year.
使用全球最佳的多模态理解模型。
Use the best model in the world for multimodal understanding.
无论你是上传视频获取演讲反馈，还是上传作业照片寻求帮助，或是转录错过的讲座笔记，Gemini三专业版都能帮到你。
So whether you're uploading a video to get feedback on your presentation, uploading a photo of your homework to ask for help, or transcribing notes from a lecture you missed, Gemini three Pro can help.
宝贝，要是我大学时有这玩意儿，我早就所向披靡了。
And baby, if I had this in college, oh, she would have been unstoppable.
想象一下。
Picture it.
莫奈在图书馆里上传我的音乐理论作业照片，对着Gemini说：帮帮这位天后吧；或者录下排练视频求反馈，而不是在琴房哭上三小时。
Monet exchanged in the library uploading a picture of my music theory homework like Gemini, please help a diva out or recording my rehearsal videos for feedback instead of crying at the practice room for three hours.
这原本会改变我的人生。
This would have been life changing.
现在说回正事。
Now back to the goods.
立即注册即可获得更多权限：使用谷歌最精准的Gemini三Pro模型、无限图片上传、专业级图片编辑、Notebook LM更高限额、Gmail和Docs中的Gemini功能、2TB存储空间等。
Sign up to get more access to Google's most accurate model Gemini three Pro, unlimited image uploads, pro level image editing, higher limits in Notebook LM, Gemini in Gmail and Docs, two terabytes of storage, and more.
你们没听错，整整2TB。
You heard me, two terabytes.
这空间足够存下所有声乐练习视频、《变装皇后秀》造型图，还有你阿姨发给你的每一张植物照片。
That's enough space to store every vocal warm up, Drag Race look, and every photo your aunt sends you of her plants.
访问 gemini.google/students 了解更多并注册。
Visit gemini.google/students to learn more and sign up.
条款适用。
Terms apply.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, everybody.
我是变装皇后鲍勃。
My name is Bob the drag queen.
我是莫奈·X·张。
And I'm Monae X Change.
我们是《姐妹之争》的主持人。
And we are the host of Sibling Rivalry.
这是档两个好朋友闲聊、互怼、尽情展现我们黑人酷儿本色的播客节目。
This is the podcast where two best friends gab and talk smack and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves.
没错。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
而且，你知道的，我们是一家人。
And, you know, we are family.
所以我们无所不谈，亲爱的，从为什么不喜欢拥抱，到黑人的命也是命，再到跨种族约会，以及其他各种话题。
So we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs, to black lives matter, to interracial dating, to other things.
对吧，妈妈？
Right, mom?
是的。
Yes.
而且场面会变得混乱，但我们不怕犯错。
And it gets messy, and we are not afraid to be wrong.
所以请加入我们Civic Bribery，你可以在任何播客平台收听。
So please join us over here at Civic Bribery available anywhere you get your podcast.
你可以免费收听并订阅。
You can listen and subscribe for free.
免费的，亲爱的。
For free, honey.
好的。
Okay.
我想谈谈性别话题。
I wanna get into gender.
这是你研究过的领域。
This is what you studied.
我觉得你有很多非常独到的见解。
I feel like you have a lot of really good takes.
我看过很多内容都让我觉得，天哪。
I've watched a lot of stuff that I'm like, oh my gosh.
这简直让我大开眼界。
I just this is just blowing my mind.
我想听听你从个人角度谈谈对男性气质和女性气质的理解。嗯。
I wanna hear from your perspective what masculinity and femininity means to you Mhmm.
分开来看以及它们如何相互影响。
Separately and how they play off of each other.
我一直在思考这个问题，因为我对女性气质和男性气质的理解与美国文化规范大不相同。
I think about this all the time because my understanding of femininity and masculinity are a lot different than American cultural norms.
因此，我将女性气质乃至女性身份视为一种社会建构。
So I understand femininity and even womanhood as a construct.
女性身份是一种权力中心。
Womanhood is this kind of power center.
当我经历过最优秀的领导力时，它往往来自于那些在那一刻展现出女性特质的人。
When I've experienced the best leadership, it's come from people who are in their femininity in that moment.
而当我玩得最开心时，通常是在体验某人身上的男性气质。
Where when I'm having the most fun, I'm usually experiencing somebody's masculinity.
因为我认为男性气质更具玩乐性。
Cause I consider masculinity more playful.
好的。
Okay.
因此，美国对男子气概的理解实际上等同于支配。
And so American American understanding of masculinity is that masculinity actually equals domination.
这就是我们所谓的'阿尔法男性'概念的来源。
I that's where we get like the alpha.
明白我的意思吗？
Know what I mean?
我走进一个房间。
I walk into a room.
我是个男人。
I am a man.
我会打量每个人，然后支配他们。
I size everybody up, and I dominate them.
因此，我就是最具男子气概的存在。
And therefore, I am the most masculine being.
但按照这个逻辑，推土机也算有男子气概了。
But so then then a bulldozer is masculine.
没错。
Right.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
那是个物体。
And that's an object.
所以如果你的性别对你如此重要，你能把它归因于所有这些无生命的事物吗？
And so if your gender is so important to you, can you ascribe it to all these inanimate things?
然后我们把女性气质比作花朵，因为它确实很柔弱。
Then we call femininity the flower because it's really weak.
作为美国人，我们对性别有很多理解，这些理解服务于资本主义体系。
We have a lot of understandings as Americans of gender that aid a capitalist system.
他们希望女性待在家里。
They want women to stay home.
所以他们说服女性，要展现最真实的女性气质，她们就是柔弱的，并且能够永远坚韧地付出。
And so they convince women that to be in their truest form of femininity, they are weak and they can resiliently provide forever.
我能生育。
I can give birth.
我能成为母亲。
I can be mother.
我能成为妻子。
I can be wife.
我能成为照料者。
I can be caretaker.
这就是我最女性化的形态。
And that is me in my most feminine form.
这正是共和党人现在讨论的话题。
And that's what the Republicans are talking about right now.
具有女性气质的女性都去哪儿了？
Where are the feminine women going?
然后我们还有男性气质，对美国男性或广义上的美国人而言，意味着我可以离开家庭。
And then we have masculinity, which for the American male or for Americans in general is I can leave the home.
我是自由的。
I am free.
我是一个动词。
I am a verb.
我不是一个名词。
I'm not a noun.
我不是一个客体。
I'm not an object.
我行动，我实践。
I go and do.
我不断蜕变。
I am constantly becoming.
我是智慧的。
I am intellectual.
我处于支配地位。
I am in domination.
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我很强大。
I am strong.
我非常活跃。
I am very active.
所以女性特质是被动的。
So femininity is passive.
男性特质是主动的。
Masculinity is active.
但这并不适用于所有文化。
But that's not across all cultures.
因此我们可以讨论性别对不同人群意味着不同的事物。
So then we can have a conversation of gender means different things for different people.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对我来说，当我感到非常阳刚时，我会觉得特别爱玩。
For me, when I'm feeling really masculine, I feel really playful.
我特别喜欢保护女性特质这个概念。
I love the idea of getting to protect the feminine.
我很喜欢温文尔雅这个理念。
I like the idea of being suave.
就是那种让我感觉真正展现男性气质的状态。
Like, that's when I'm feeling really in my masculinity.
当我展现女性特质时，通常是在担任领导角色的时候。
When I'm feeling feminine, it's usually when I'm taking on a leadership role.
真有意思。
So interesting.
或者当我需要做决定的时候。
Or when I have to make a decision.
对我来说，女性特质通常意味着更关注他人。
And that's for me because feminine is usually it's more aware of others.
对吧？
Right?
这并不一定是母亲的角色，而是我需要完成某件事的状态。
It's not necessarily this mother role, but it is this thing of I need to get something done.
所以我们现在必须非常认真。
And so we have to be really serious right now.
我不希望你感到不自在。
And I don't want you to feel uncomfortable.
我并没有生你的气。
I'm not upset with you.
但我们必须为了共同目标团结一致。
But we have to come together for a common goal.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那是我最具女性特质的一面。
That's me at my most feminine.
而我最具男性特质的一面。
Me at my most masculine.
我正在和女朋友约会。
I'm on a date with my girlfriend.
我真是无可救药。
I'm incorrigible.
这是完全不同的概念。
It's a much different thing.
我认为每个人对此的理解都可以不同。
And I think that it can be different for everybody else.
我真心觉得这会因人而异。
I really think it can be different based on the person.
所以我喜欢性别认同这个概念——它不是非此即彼的二元论，而是流动的。因为我对自我的认知实际上与你对自我的认知毫无关系。
And that's why I like the idea of gender identities, know, of it not being a binary of everything feeling really fluid because my understanding of self actually has nothing to do with your understanding of self.
正因我对自我有明确的定位和建构，当你做任何让你快乐的事时，我不会觉得有必要约束你。
And because I have an understanding of self that I located, I created, When you do whatever it is that makes you happy, I don't feel the need to legislate you.
但如果这一切都是虚构的，如果我对自我的全部认知都建立在某个层面上我明知是用来维系某种体系的基础上，那么你任何超出这个框架的行为都会让我感到威胁，我就不得不去约束它。
But if all of it's made up and my entire understanding of self is built on things that truly I understand at some level are meant to upheld a system, then whatever you do that's not inside of that is going to be threatening to me, and I will have to legislate it.
这个回答有点绕，但这就是我最近对性别的思考方式。
That's a convoluted answer, but that's how I've been thinking about gender recently.
你是怎么达到这种认知的？
How do you get there?
因为有很多东西需要重新学习和剥离。
Because it's a lot to unlearn and strip away.
而且，我的意思是，你必须真正静下心来内省。
And, I mean, you really have to get quiet within yourself.
但具体要怎么做呢？
But how do you do that?
我认为你在诚实地追随内心的愉悦。
I think that you are you are following pleasure in an honest way.
实际上，比如说你每天要做200个决定。
And it's it's actually you make, you know, let's say you make 200 decisions in a day.
其中大部分决定我都会先问问自己的感受。
I check-in with myself for most of those decisions.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
我不是在自动驾驶模式下生活。
I'm not running on autopilot.
正因如此，我觉得自己更清楚什么能带来快乐，什么只是出于义务在做。
And because of that, I think I have a better understanding of what's bringing me pleasure and what am I doing because I'm supposed to.
我注意到很多跨性别男性朋友都在经历这种'小男孩文艺复兴期'。
I have noticed that a lot of my trans masc friends or or trans men friends, we are all having these like little boy renaissance.
所以我家现在看起来像九岁男孩的露营基地。
So my house, it looks like a nine year old boy setup camp.
简直太疯狂了。
It's it's crazy.
墙上贴满了鱼类贴纸。
I've got, like, fish decals on the wall.
我甚至把家具都处理掉了，因为觉得需要更多手工活动空间。
Like, there's I've now gotten rid of the furniture because I was like, we need more room for crafts.
所以，就像，我刚在路边发现了一个文件柜。
So, like, I just found a file cabinet on the side of the street.
我当时就觉得，这是我见过最美的东西。
And I was like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.
那是个橙色的文件柜。
It's an orange filing cabinet.
就像，我也不知道自己怎么了。
Like, I don't know what's going on.
我这样做是因为过去受到很多限制。
And I'm doing that because I was restricted in a lot of ways.
社会给我的感觉就是我应该喜欢一大堆东西。
And the way that I experienced society was I was supposed to like a bunch of things.
但其实我并不喜欢，只是为了迎合而勉强去做。
And I didn't like them, but I did them anyway because I was supposed to.
现在我才意识到，天啊，你们不会因此就真正喜欢我的。
And now that I'm like, oh shit, you're you're not gonna love me as such.
我想我应该爱这样的自己。
I guess I should love me as such.
然后我开始审视整个人生，思考：我真正想要的是什么？
Then I'm really looking at my whole life and being like, what is it that I want?
我的梦想是什么？
What is my dream?
我想要那个该死的鱼贴纸。
I want the fucking fish decal.
我想搬走那个文件柜。
I want to pick up the filing cabinet.
我想要空间里堆满书籍而非家具。
Like, I want the space to be filled with more books than furniture.
这才是我真正渴望的。
That is actually what I want.
这正给我带来快乐。
That is bringing me pleasure.
我愿意为了艺术生活牺牲金钱和稳定。
I want to sacrifice money and stability for a life of art.
我想和我的伴侣在一起。
I want to be with my partner.
我想要，我想要，我渴望，我决心要。
I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to.
我正在追寻所有真正带给我快乐的事物。
I'm following all the things that are actually giving me pleasure.
你会发现，当你不断追问这个问题时，你的真的身份就会自然显现。
And you'll find that your identity reveals itself when that's the question that you're constantly asking.
在我们开始这次对话之前，你和我已经就女性气质进行了一些讨论。
You and I had a little bit of a conversation about femininity before we started this conversation.
我发现当女性离开异性恋空间进入酷儿空间时，总是特别耐人寻味。
And I find I always find it interesting when fems leave a hetero space and come to a queer space.
这对你来说是什么样的体验？
So what has that been like for you?
嗯，我正想说，你说的很多内容和我从德克萨斯搬到洛杉矶的经历很相似。
Well, I was just gonna say a lot of what you're saying is kind of the experience I had moving from Texas to LA.
当时的情况就是这样。
It was like this.
而我当时就是德克萨斯风格。
And I was Texas.
我是说，我留着金色大波浪头发，隆了巨乳，做了好多手术——抽脂、提臀，就为了追求那种特定形象，你知道的，想吸引特定关注。
I mean, I had the big blonde hair and the huge boobs and like the I was trying to I had so many surgeries, lipos, butt lifts, all these things to try to get this specific look and, you know, capture a specific attention.
后来我搬到这里，回首在那边的大部分生活，感觉就像在做梦一样。
And then when I moved here and and I look back on most of my life there and I feel like I was asleep.
那些决定很多都是糊里糊涂做的。
I made so many of those decisions.
天知道当时为什么那么做？
Like, who fucking knows why?
就说我隆胸的故事吧，当时我在泰国。
Story of me getting my boob job, I was in Thailand.
我一直都想离开家。
Like I was always wanted to leave home.
我从来都不想待在那里，所以我经常旅行。
I never wanted to be there so I traveled a lot.
我当时在中国机场准备飞往泰国时，心想等我回来就要去做隆胸手术。
I was literally in the China Airport flying to Thailand and I was like, when I get home I'm gonna get a boob job.
直接预约了。
Booked it.
从没见过那个医生。
Had never seen the doctor.
我回来了。
I come home.
我第一次见到他时，就是去做手术。
I literally the first time I met him was going to get the surgery.
天啊。
Holy cow.
汗流浃背。
Was sweating.
我知道。
It I know.
太疯狂了。
It was crazy.
我有个朋友开车送我去的。
I had a friend, like, drive me there.
我甚至在手术当天早上才决定隆胸尺寸。
Just like I I made the decision on the size the morning of the surgery.
我的
My
天啊。
god.
太离谱了。
It's crazy.
我回头想想就觉得，这他妈什么情况？
And I look back and I'm like, what the fuck?
虽然我确实有点莽撞，但本质上我还是个正常人。
Like, I'm I'm reckless, but I'm I'm still, like, a pretty, you know, with it human.
但回顾那段岁月，我就想，我当时到底在干嘛？
But those years of my life, I'm like, what was I doing?
我觉得原因在于——那时的我完全不了解自己，甚至是在刻意抗拒真实的自我，就只是不断逃避。
I and I think this is why is because I just was, like, not in touch with myself or who I was and and actually actively rejecting it and just kind of like, nope.
根本不想面对任何问题。
Not not gonna deal with any of that.
所以当我来到这里接触到新环境后，才开始逐渐出柜。
So when I came here and was exposed, I started coming out.
我感觉隆胸之类的事情就像是出柜过程的最后一步。
I felt like that the boobs and all of that was this, like, last part of coming out.
做手术取出假体时，我终于明白——这些东西根本不适合我。
And getting that surgery and taking them out was like this last thing of like, okay, they just don't fit me.
我说不上来为什么
I couldn't tell you why.
就像突然之间，我不再喜欢它们了
It was just like, I don't like them anymore.
感觉就是不对劲
I they don't feel right.
但这与男性化或女性化无关
Still, it wasn't like a masculine feminine thing.
单纯就是不喜欢自己的样子
It was just like, I don't like the way I look.
我的衣服穿在身上怎么看都不对劲
I don't my clothes don't look right in this anymore.
那就像是我过去的残影
It's it's this old piece of me.
而现在摘除后，我却又开始怀念它们
And then I got them out, and now I feel like I miss them.
真的吗？
Really?
不是的。
Not No.
不是，我是说，不是以一种坏的或
Not I mean, not in a bad or
好的方式。
good way.
比如，我理解那种感觉。
Like, I get that.
我不...但我确实...我说不清为什么。
I don't but I do I can't tell you why.
我想这就是为什么我如此渴望进行这场对话，因为就像，我不喜欢它们穿在衣服上的样子。
And I think that's why I'm so, like, starving for this exact conversation because it's like, I don't like the way they look in clothes.
我感觉好极了。
I feel so good.
就像我感觉胸口卸下了20磅的重担，能自由呼吸，整个人都轻松了。
Like my I feel like a 20 pound weight is off my chest and I can breathe and I feel lighter.
但当我照镜子时，我又觉得，我不喜欢这样。
But when I look in the mirror, I'm like, I don't like this.
哦。
Oh.
这是什么意思？
What does that mean?
我觉得这很有意思，因为反观我自己，我一直在内心对话中纠结要不要做胸部手术。
I mean, that's fascinating to me because on the other side of that, I'm constantly having a conversation with self about top surgery.
因为在跨性别话题里，你总在思考：我到底站在性别光谱的哪一端？
And just because I think in the trans conversation, you're constantly like, well, what side of the spectrum am I following on here?
这些问题你怎么看？
What about these questions?
比如我很多朋友都在做胸部手术。
Like, lot of my friends are getting top surgery.
他们感到非常快乐。
They feel really happy.
我一直在诚实地与自己对话，试图弄清楚哪部分——对任何人来说都没有错误答案，没有对错之分。
And I've been trying to sit with myself honestly and say what part, and there's no wrong answer for anybody, no wrong or right.
但其中有多少是我为自己而做，又有多少是为了适应社会文化而做？
But what part of this would I be doing for me and what part of it would I be doing for culture to exist in society?
对我来说，关于胸部手术的讨论就像——哦，我并不想仅仅因为我厌恶男性凝视就切除自己身体的一部分。
And the top surgery conversation for me is like, Oh, well, I don't want to get rid of one of my body parts just because I actually despise the male gaze.
这就是我现在的想法。
And so that's where I am right now.
但我不确定明天是否还会这么想。
But I don't know that I'll feel that way tomorrow.
一旦我的想法改变，也许我就会去做胸部手术。
And the minute that I do feel differently, maybe I'll get top surgery.
但我还没有为自己找到这个问题的答案。
But I haven't answered that question for myself.
所以我还在犹豫，你懂我的意思吗？
And so I'm still, you know what I mean?
就是，我还没有采取行动。
Like, I'm not making a move.
我在想，为什么？
That I am like, why?
这个话题让我很困扰。
This conversation is bothering me.
每次我脱下上衣时，这个念头就会冒出来。
Every time I take off my shirt, I'm having the conversation.
是因为我的胸部，还是因为我受够了人们用目光扒光我——当我说自己是非二元性别时，他们却暗示‘但我们知道你有什么’。
Is it about my boobs or is it about that I'm so tired of people kind of undressing me so that when I say theythem, that non binary, they're like, but we know what you have.
我厌倦了胸部带来的这种窥视，但我不想为了在这些该死的顺性别变态面前隐形，就刻意打造中性化的身体。
I'm kind of tired of the perversion that boobs allow, but I don't want to make a neutral body just so that I can feel more invisible to these goddamn cis head perverts.
对吧。
Right.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
因为在酷儿空间里，我对自己的身体不会有那种感觉。
Like, because when I'm in queer spaces, I don't feel that way about my body.
我经常和各种不同体型的人相处。
I, like, I hang out with a lot of different people with a lot of different bodies.
只要我们在酷儿空间里，我就对自己拥有的一切感觉棒极了。
And as long as we're in a queer space, I feel fucking great about what I got.
但当我回到顺性别者的规范环境中时
And then I go and I'm with cis people in a normative environment.
我突然对一切都变得非常敏感
And I'm suddenly very conscious of everything.
所以这些信息让我觉得，好吧，暂时先保持现状
And so that information for me is all I have to be like, okay, for now we'll be still.
暂时我们不会对身体做出任何决定，因为我还不知道
For now, we're not going to make a decision about our body because I don't know.
你觉得你会怀念什么？
What do you think you'd miss?
或者说你怀念拥有它们的哪些方面？
Or what you miss about having them?
嗯，现在我觉得这和刚才你说的非常相似。
Well, now I'm thinking it's something very similar to what you just said.
因为当我在自己的空间和同伴们在一起时，我感觉很好。
Because I think when I'm in my space and with my people, I feel fine.
但一旦我开始考虑那个空间之外的事，特别是像在镜头前做这类工作时，你会感觉被所有人注视着。
But it's the minute that I start thinking outside of that space, especially like, you know, when you're on camera and you're doing this kind of stuff, it's like you're seen by everyone.
你知道的，观众不只是酷儿群体。
You know, it's not just queer people.
所以这让我忍不住想，别人会怎么看待我的形象？
So it's like, I think that takes my mind out to like, oh, like what do I feel about how I'm going to be perceived?
所以我认为这种被审视的感觉可能仍在侵扰着我。
So it is still that perception, I think, that's maybe invading.
这是你对他人的定向关注。
It's your orientation to the other.
是的。
Yeah.
你更敏感于他人看法，这是我们从小被培养的方式。
You're more attuned, which we're raised to be this way.
所以大多数人都是这样的。
So this is like most of us are like this.
你更在意他人对你的理解，而非自我认知，这就是为什么当我们问‘你怀念胸部的什么’时
You're more attuned to the other's understanding of you than your understanding of self, which is why when we're like, What are you missing about the boobs?
你会说‘靠，我也不知道’。
You're like, Well fuck, I don't know.
就像我谈论胸部手术时一样，我会说‘在真空环境下，我根本不在乎我的胸部’。
Same thing when I talk about top surgery is I'm like, Well, I guess in a vacuum, I don't give a shit about my tits.
它们其实还挺酷的。
They're actually pretty cool.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
我并没有低头看，因为我对自己的身体有着非常流动的认知。
I'm not looking down at because I have such a really fluid understanding of my body.
我看待自己的胸部并非为了女性气质或男性气质。
I'm not looking at my tits for femininity or masculinity.
我与它们相处得非常愉快。
I'm having a really fine experience with them.
只有当我面向他人时，才会突然对自己的身体感到非常不适。
It is when I am oriented to the other that I suddenly am very uncomfortable with my body.
所以我必须背对他人，重新优先考虑能带给我快乐的事物。
So then I have to turn my back on the other and reprioritize what's bringing me pleasure.
而且这种情况可能再次改变。
And that and once again, it could change.
对吧？
Right?
比如，有一天我赤身裸体时，可能不会想着'做得好'。
Like, I could one day get naked and instead of being like, good job.
我可能会觉得'这必须改变'。
I could be like, this has to change.
我...我很痛苦。
I'm I'm miserable.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
那真的可能会改变。
That could really change.
而在那一天，我不会评判自己，因为我知道那关乎我追求的愉悦。
And I and I just won't have judgment of myself on that day because I'll know that it was about the pleasure that I was seeking.
没错。
Right.
但如果我真的这么做
But if I do
如果是为了别人而做，我想我会非常失望。
it for anybody else, I think I'll be really disappointed.
我同意。
I agree.
那女性气质方面呢？
What about with femininity?
说实话，我认为女性更难从那种非常顺性别异性恋的、任何方面都规范压抑的环境中，过渡到一个酷儿空间。
I think it's harder for fems, honestly, to go from from a, like, a very cis hut, like, normative in any way stifling environment to coming into a queer space.
我认为这比跨男性经历或男性化经历更难。
I think it's harder than the trans masc experience or than the masculine experience.
这是我个人的看法。
That's what I personally believe.
情况怎么样？
How's it been?
我确实认为，当你刚开始真正摸索时，会有很多类似'哦不'的感觉。
I do think, like, at first, when you're kind of really figuring it out, there's a lot of kind of like, oh, no.
嗯
Mhmm.
不，你不是
No, you're not.
不，你不可能是
No, you can't be.
嗯
Mhmm.
这很有趣
Which was interesting.
而且我觉得当时很害怕，因为我发现自己要回答很多关于这方面的问题
And I think I was really fearful because I found myself answering a lot of questions about that.
为什么你现在才明白这个？
Why have you figured this out?
为什么你...为什么你从来没和女孩在一起过？
Why are you why have you never been with a girl?
为什么你从未与女孩有过认真的恋爱关系？
Why have you never been in a serious relationship with a girl?
那是一次有趣的经历。
So that was an interesting experience.
然后我想我寻找的是最接近我约会过的那种关系。
And then I think I sought out what was closest to what I had been dating.
所以第一段关系真的很艰难，因为我觉得其中有很多异性恋常规动态，我深深陷入其中，某种程度上仍然依赖别人来告诉我关于自己的事。
So that first relationship was really tough just because I think there was a lot of that heteronormative dynamic that I really leaned into and kind of still relied on somebody else to tell me about myself.
所以我想这就是为什么我仍在挣扎，它渗透到很多方面，这可能有点牵强，我不知道。
So I think that's why I'm still struggling and it permeates a lot of things like I and this might be a stretch, I don't know.
但我认为这种自我定位，因为我在这些事情上长期缺失，所以在很多其他方面也不存在。
But I think that orientation to self, because I didn't have it for so long with just these things, it's not there for a lot of other things too.
在工作和日常决策中，对我来说很难不仍然默认听从伴侣或他人的意见。
In work life and just everyday decision making, it's like really hard for me to not still default to my partner's opinion or other people's.
你知道，我说伴侣只是因为我每天都和她在一起，我们一起工作。
You know, I say my partner just because I'm with her every day and we work together.
但问题是，我发现自己经常质疑，比如，这是真实的我吗？还是别人做事的方式或对我做事方式的看法？或者说，那样对吗？
But it's like, I find myself questioning a lot, like, is this what's true to me or is someone else's way of doing things or opinion on the way I do things or, you know, is that right?
这让我感到非常迷失方向。
And I can't it's so disorienting.
我找不到正确答案。
I can't find the right answer.
他们就是故意这样对你的。
Well, they did that on purpose to you.
对吧？
Right?
这就是他们训练你认识自己的方式。
Like that is the They trained you to see yourself.
你的生存技巧就是通过男性视角来看待自己。
Your survival technique is to see yourself through the male gaze.
这就是你生存下来的方式。
That is how you survived.
所以我说这对女性来说更难
That's why I say I think it's harder for fems.
你从小就是通过男性视角来看待自己的
You've been brought up looking at yourself through the male gaze.
所以你其实没有清晰的自我认知
So you actually don't have a clear view of self.
这很艰难
That is tough.
这更难
That is harder.
你需要摒弃很多旧观念，这不是贬义或居高临下的说法
You have a lot of unlearning to do and not in like a pejorative way or a condescending way.
整个体系就是这样构建的
That's how the whole system is built.
如果你不这样做，当你面向他人时，那种身体上的不适感就会提醒你：为了生存，你必须迎合男性视角
And if you don't, the discomfort that you can experience with your body in moments where you're oriented towards the other are that you know survival wise that you have to be pleasing to the male gaze.
你现在正担心自己不再符合那种标准。
And you're worried that right now you're not.
你已经和过去不一样了。
You're not in the same way that you used to be.
所以这不是我在跨性别男性身份上的体验。
And so that's not the experience that I'm having with a trans masculine identity.
而且我认为这也不总是跨性别男性的体验，因为我们很多时候要么和其他跨性别者恋爱，要么和女性化群体恋爱。
And I don't think that's always the experience that trans men are having because a lot of times we're in relationships with either other trans people or with femmes.
而女性化群体爱的就是真实的我们。
And femmes love us as such.
女性真的爱我们本来的样子。
Women really love us as such.
通常如果我们幸运的话，甚至在我们对自我身份认知还不清晰时就能有这种体验。
We usually, if we were lucky, we could have that experience even when we didn't have a firm grasp of our identity.
在我们确立跨性别身份前，可能曾以女同性恋或其他酷儿身份生活过。
We were maybe identifying as lesbians or queer in another way before we entered our trans identity.
因此我们曾有幸被女性完整地爱着，爱我们真实的样子，也爱我们蜕变的过程。
And so we have had the ability to be loved by a woman very fully for who we are and in our process of becoming.
男性没有被培养出共情式的爱的能力。
Men are not trained to love empathetically.
这不代表他们做不到，只是他们从小接受的教育并非如此。
It doesn't mean they can't, but that's not how they're brought up.
他们被教导要以自我为中心，而你们则被教育要以他们为中心。
They're taught to center themselves and you're taught to center them.
所以当你进入酷儿世界时，你某种程度上仍被困在一个未被如此爱过的男性思维中。
And so then when you make it over into the queer world, you're still trapped in a male brain in a way where you've not been loved as such.
因此即使有人爱着真实的你，你也会觉得：这他妈是什么情况？
And so even if somebody is loving you for exactly who you are, you're like, what the fuck is this?
你居然这样爱我？
You love me like this?
你真的这样爱我？
You love me like this?
你傻吗？
Are you stupid?
这几乎让人难以置信。
It's almost hard to believe.
没错。
Exactly.
你无法消化它。
You can't intake it.
我是说，我和玛蒂尔达已经在一起两年半了。
Mean, it's taken Matilda and I have been together two and a half years.
有时候我还是听不进某些话，尤其是关于外貌的。
And sometimes I still can't hear certain things, especially around looks.
当我们讨论胸部问题时，就像，不，你不明白吗？
And when we have this you know, conversation about the boobs, it's like, no, you don't get it?
你不理解吗？
You don't understand?
你这是在客气。
You're being kind.
对。
Right.
你只是在客气。
You're just being kind.
你不够诚实。
You're not being honest.
比如，不，他们确实喜欢你的样子。
Like, no, they do like the way you look.
不。
No.
我是说，我发现和我约会过的所有之前和男性交往过的女性，这似乎是个普遍现象。
I I mean, I'm I'm I have found that with any femme that I've dated that was, like, with men before, that is a a common theme.
当我拒绝的时候。
It's when I'm like, no.
我出现在这里纯粹是因为我喜欢你的样子。
I'm literally here because I like the way you look.
呃，抱歉。
Like, sorry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
我不是在说甜言蜜语。
Like, I'm not being sweet.
我很肤浅。
I'm vapid.
他们真的无法相信我只是单纯欣赏他们身体原本的样子。
They they really can't believe that that that I would just enjoy their body for exactly what it is.
我就说，此刻我看着这副躯体。
I'm like, there's I'm looking at this body.
你的身体真的没有任何问题。
There's literally nothing wrong with your body.
懂我意思吗？
Know what I mean?
但男性凝视太严苛了。
But that male gaze is so tough.
我觉得男人对所有人的存在都太理所当然，所以男性凝视更负面。
I think men feel so entitled to everybody's existence that the male gaze is more negative.
因为如果我理所当然拥有这片土地，那我就会想除掉那棵树。
Because if I'm entitled to all this land, then I'm kind of looking for I want to get rid of that tree.
如果我视线所及的一切都是我的，那我就会想在那边建个健身房。
If everything that I can see to the horizon is mine, then I'm gonna want to put a gym over there.
但如果整个区域是国家公园，实际上不属于我，它属于自己，是独立的，那我就会惊叹：天啊。
I'm gonna but if the whole thing is a national park and it actually doesn't belong to me, it belongs to itself, it's sovereign, then I'm like, oh my god.
看看这些树。
Look at all these trees.
这完全是不同的立场。
It's a completely different orientation.
那你如何——解构的过程是怎样的？
So how do you- what's the deconstruction?
我觉得这就像一种咒语。
I think it's like a mantra.
你需要找到对你最有意义的那些咒语。
Like you have to find the mantras that mean the most to you.
你到底需要听到什么？
What do you actually need to hear?
你到底需要听到什么样的声音？
What do you actually need to hear?
我现在能分辨出垃圾食品、过量饮酒、缺乏锻炼和背部疼痛的区别。
I know now the difference between I've been kind of eating garbage and drinking too much and not working out and my back is hurting and I've been overworked.
我现在能区分身体不适时的挫败感和体型变大的感觉。
I know the difference now between feeling that way about my body, feeling a little frustrated in my body versus feeling too big.
我之所以能分辨这些，是因为我不得不将它们逐一剖析。
I know that now because I had to parse it apart.
所以这句真言就像是：你的身体没有任何问题，但我们确实想感觉更好些。
And so then the mantra is like, there's nothing wrong with your body, but we do want to feel better.
是的。
Yeah.
而且要不断重复、重复、再重复，这样我就不会用男性凝视的眼光看待自己，因为去他妈的这些陈规陋习。
And and kind of repeated, repeated, repeated so that I'm not looking at myself through the male gaze because truly fuck those trods.
你懂我意思吧？
You know what I'm saying?
明白。
Yes.
阿门。
Amen.
他们不配存在。
They don't deserve to be here.
就像，如果他们没在看我裸体，那我也不会用他们的眼光来看自己裸体。
Like, if they're not looking at me naked, like, I'm not gonna look at me naked through their eyes.
这是一种享受。
It's a treat.
这不是为他们准备的。
It's not for them.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
在我那段短暂经历中，我确实发现——勉强可以称之为与男性约会
And I and I did find that in the short experience that I had, I loosely can call it dating men.
即使他们喜欢我身体的一切，仍想要支配我的思想
That even if they liked everything about my body, they still wanted to dominate my mind.
我认为这...并不是憎恨男性，但我确实憎恨'美国男性'这种社会建构
And I think that that's I don't think it's it's not about hating men, but I do hate the construct that is the American male.
嗯
Mhmm.
我确实厌恶它。
I do hate it.
我认为这在本质上就是不友善的。
I think it's it's inherently unkind.
本质上就是自以为是的。
It's inherently entitled.
我生活中也有完全不那样的男性。
And I have men in my life that are not that way at all.
所以我知道这是可以改变的。
And so I know that it can be undone.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我知道那不是天生的。
And I know that that's not a natural thing.
我知道那是后天养成的。
I know that that's taught.
但该死的，这确实让酷儿群体成为了一片绿洲。
But fuck, it does really make queerness an oasis.
百分百同意。
A 100%.
我最近在一期节目里谈过这个，当我出柜后，我发现自己对男性产生了恐惧。
I talked about this recently on an episode, but when I came out, I discovered a fear of men.
我完全无法忍受他们。
I have a complete aversion.
我以前从未有过这种感觉。
I never had it.
这很有趣，因为我其实很爱我父亲。
And I and it is interesting because I love my dad.
他是那么好的一个人。
He's so great.
我还有个最善良、最贴心的弟弟。
I have the kindest, sweetest brother.
但事实就是这样。
But it's like that.
而那些就是我成长过程中接触的男性。
And those were the men I grew up around.
但这些都不重要。
But like that doesn't matter.
我讨厌和他们相处
I hate being around them
因为这正是我们嘲笑他们的点，当他们说'我是个女孩爸爸'的时候。
because that's like the exact thing that we make fun of them when they're like, I'm a girl dad.
就像
Like How
我怎么可能讨厌女性呢？
could I hate women?
比如，认识一个女孩并不意味着你就没有性别歧视。
Like, knowing a girl doesn't mean that you're not sexist.
你懂我意思吧？
Like, you know what I mean?
确实。
True.
如果说我从美国那种有毒的顺性别异性恋文化中学到了什么，那就是他们最大的笑点就是'我老婆糟透了'。
If anything that I've learned from, like, really toxic cis het American culture is, like, their biggest punchline is my wife sucks.
更夸张的是，他们最拿手的喜剧主题就是互相憎恨。
Actively, their big comedy is that they hate each other.
这不可能是真的。
And that can't be true.
他们不可能这样生活，但我实在搞不懂那边是怎么回事。
They can't be living like this, but I'm I don't understand what's going on over there.
他们看起来真的不怎么快乐。
Like, they just don't seem very happy.
那些声称想要女朋友的男人，全都在网上对女性帖子评论'去死吧'之类的。
Like, all the men that claim to want girlfriends are online commenting on women's posts being like, fuck you.
滚回厨房去。
Get back in the kitchen.
真希望你死了。
Wish you were dead.
根本不会踢足球。
Can't play soccer for real.
就像哈利那样。
Like Harry.
嘿。
Hey.
没关系。
It's okay.
然后他们还因为女性不愿和他们约会而生气。
And then they're mad because women don't want to date them.
你会觉得，嗯，女性能感觉到你对她们恨之入骨。
And you're like, well, the women can tell that you hate their guts.
没错。
Right.
所以我们很依赖直觉。
So we're pretty instinctual.
是啊。
Yeah.
她们可能正在看你的评论。
They're probably like, looking at your comments.
关于你的。
Of you.
对。
Yeah.
而且实际上你的所有帖子都是公开的。
And you're you're actually, your whole your posts are public.
我不知道你是不是很烦人。
I don't know if you're annoying.
然后你点进他们的主页，看到写着‘女孩、父亲、基督信徒’之类的。
And then you go to their their, you know, their actual thing and it's like, girl, dad, believer in Christ.
你就会想，这肯定不对吧。
And you're like, well, certainly not.
没错。
Yes.
他们还说‘我要报警，如果警察没那么糟糕的话’。
They're like, I'm calling the police if the police weren't bad.
而事实确实如此。
And they are.
哇，真多啊。
Lot wow.
是的。
Yes.
信息量太大了
Lot to unpack
在这一个小时的播客里。
in this this one hour podcast.
我没听懂。
I'm not getting it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我没明白。
I'm not getting it.
真希望我能理解。
I wish I understood.
我确实觉得自己对异性恋者有点缺乏同理心。
I actually do feel that there's a little bit of a lack of empathy that I have for heterosexuals.
而且我认为，在当下我们经历这场大规模文化倒退时，作为一个异性恋女性真的很糟糕。
And I think that to be a heterosexual woman right now when we're having this massive cultural regression is it just it actually sucks.
说真的，非常诚恳地说，不带评判，也不是想当个刻薄的人。
Like, it actually truly, very honestly, without judgment, not trying to be a bitch.
这真是个艰难的处境。
It is such a tough position.
就像我们看到Z世代时，女孩们变得越来越自由开放、进步，而男孩们却变得更加保守，带着更多极右翼的能量。
Like, we have when we're looking at Gen Z, the girls are getting more liberal, more progressive, and the guys are getting a lot more conservative, a lot more alt right energy.
我们目睹了非自愿独身者数量的大幅激增。
We have this massive uptick in incels.
所有这些男孩宁愿放弃考驾照也要花更多时间打游戏。
We have all these boys that are forgoing getting their driver's license so that they can play more video games.
然后他们还讨厌女性玩家。
And then they hate gamer girls.
这些小男生似乎都憎恨女性进入他们的领域，却又觉得生活中理应有个女人。
They just all these little boys seem to hate women in their spaces, but they feel entitled to having a woman in their life.
而这些小女孩们却因为去泰勒·斯威夫特演唱会，或是花3000美元看碧昂丝演出被嘲笑——因为在那些场合，她们能看到强大的女性歌唱女性力量。
And all these little girls are like getting made fun of for going to Taylor Swift concerts or for spending $3,000 to go to a Beyonce concert because when they go to those spaces, they can see a powerful woman sing about womanhood.
哇。
Wow.
小女孩们做的每件事都会遭到嘲笑。
Everything that little girls do, they get made fun of.
女性做的每件事都是错的。
Everything that women do is bad.
每件事都是如此。
Everything.
女性做的每件事都是错的。
Everything that women do is bad.
所有事情都被视为负面。
It everything is looked at as a negative.
但对酷儿群体就不是这样。
But it's not like that with queer people.
说实话，我真的很崇拜我的伴侣。
Like, I I am in worship of my partner, like, very honestly.
她身上最吸引我、最让我感到安心的特质正是她的女性气质。
And the things about her that I like the most or find the most comfort in is her femininity.
这几乎就像一种家主般的能量，以一种非常灵性美好的方式存在。
It's like this almost like head of house energy and like a very spiritual beautiful way.
是她的那份笃定。
It's her assuredness.
是她的那份善良。
It's her kindness.
是她的那份好奇心。
It's her curiosity.
就像这种我归因于女性特质和生命中女性化人群的、美好而明亮的光辉。
It's like all this beautiful level of brightness that I ascribe to womanhood and to femme people in my life.
而我和男性朋友相处时，则获得完全不同的体验。
And I go and I hang out with my guy friends for a completely different experience.
我和跨性别男性相处时，也获得完全不同的体验。
I go and hang out with trans men for a completely different experience.
那是兄弟情谊。
It's it's brotherhood.
我们臭烘烘的。
We stink.
他们吃东西不闭嘴。
They don't chew with their mouths closed.
我们不知怎么又聊起鱼来了。
We're like talking about fish again somehow.
你懂我意思吗？
You know what I mean?
你能感觉到每个人都在感受性别。
And it is like you can see that everybody is is feeling gender.
你能看到每个人都在经历性别。
You can see that everyone's experiencing gender.
我正在经历性别。
I'm experiencing gender.
你也在经历性别。
You're experiencing gender.
我只是觉得我们对性别都有着不同的体验。
I just think we're all having a different experience of gender.
而这正是有趣、新奇、酷炫且引人入胜的部分。
And that's actually the part that's fun and kinky and cool and interesting.
如果每个人都做着完全相同的事，就像那些在顺性别异性恋规范环境中长大的男女，因为感到被困在性别角色里而互相憎恨。
If everyone was doing the exact same thing, like all the women and men that are growing up in this cis heteronormative environment that are actively hating each other because they feel trapped inside of gender roles.
那就会导致我们现在的处境——这种奇怪的性别战争，而只有女性会成为输家。
Then we have what we have right now, which is this weird battle between the sexes that only women can lose.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们该怎么解决？
How do we fix it?
怎么解决我是
How do we fix I'm
比如，请今天就帮我们解决这个问题。
like, please solve it for us today.
可惜的是，我——好吧，我得回到关于无条件爱人的话题上。
Unfortunately, I've, well, I'm gonna come back to the conversation of loving people as such.
你也可以无条件地恨人。
You can also hate people as such.
像JD·范斯、唐纳德·特朗普这样的男人，对吧？
I think that men like JD Vans, Donald Trump, right?
这太明显了。
It's so obvious.
我们恨这些家伙。
We hate these guys.
但我并不沉迷于他们。
But I don't feel obsessed with them.
实际上他们对我而言无足轻重。
They're actually very unimportant to me.
当然，如果他们当选，确实有权立法约束我的身体和其他所有人，但他们无法控制我的思想，对我而言他们毫无意义。
And of course, if they're elected, they have the power to legislate my body and everybody else, but they can't legislate my brain and they mean nothing to me.
他们唯一想要的就是我的关注，因为我的关注很有价值。
And the only thing that they want is my attention because my attention is valuable.
他们从任何人那里唯一想要的就是关注，这就是为什么他们不断告诉女性她们对自己的身体没有自主权——因为他们知道女性会反驳说我们当然有。
And the only thing that they want from anybody is attention, which is why they're constantly telling women that they don't have rights over their body because they know that women will be like, well, surely we do.
结果我们所有的注意力都转向了这些无能之辈。
And then all of our attention is pointed to these limp dick losers.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
而跨性别群体，这个以自爱著称的群体，尽管面临各种可能的暴力。
And the trans community, a community that is best known for loving itself as such that in spite of every violence possible.
他们做了什么？
And what do they do?
他们立法限制跨性别儿童，因为他们“不配拥有权利”，而那些孩子会反抗说“不，我们应得权利”。
They legislate trans kids because they want then those kids to go, no, I deserve rights.
现在这些孩子已经适应了他们。
And now those kids are attuned towards them.
我不是说要退出政治领域。
I'm not saying check out of the political space.
这不是我的意思。
That's not what I'm saying.
但我确实想确保我们在憎恶他们行为的同时，不会过度关注他们。
But I do want to make sure that we're not obsessed with them while we're hating their behavior.
我希望他们对我们的影响能减小。
I want them to mean less to us.
然后当他们想获得我们的关注时，就必须通过积极的方式来实现。
And then when they want to earn our attention, they have to do it through positivity.
他们就会像小狗一样得到些积极肯定。
And they'll get their little positive affirmations like dogs.
这就是条件反射，对吧？
It's Pavlovian, right?
如果你想获得关注，想从我的社区得到正面关注，那就真正融入我的社区。
If you want attention, positive attention from my community, then come into my community.
为公立学校提供资金支持。
Give give funding to public schools.
比如瓦解警察国家体系，增加社工人员配置。
Like crush the police state and use more social workers.
别再干涉女性的身体自主权。
Like leave women's bodies alone.
停止试图通过立法阻止父母保护他们的跨性别子女。
Stop trying to legislate parents from being able to protect their trans children.
这些才是值得我给予正面关注的事情。
That that is something that I will give positive attention for.
没错。
Yeah.
但我绝不会为所有这些负面行为浪费注意力。
But I'm not gonna give attention for all this negativity.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
我是说，我很好奇你对毒性 masculinity 在酷儿群体中如何表现有什么看法。
I mean, I am so curious to hear your thoughts on how toxic masculinity manifests within the queer community.
好的。
Okay.
男性凝视同样适用于铁T和跨性别男性。
The male gaze also applies to butches and it also applies to trans men.
我见过这种情况，因为我们对睾酮的研究足以证明它并不会让你变成混蛋。
And I've seen that because we have enough research on testosterone to know that it doesn't actually make you an asshole.
对吧？
Right?
它也不会让你变成男人。
And it doesn't actually make you a man.
女性睾酮水平最高的时候是在怀孕期间。
The women have their highest levels of testosterone is when they're pregnant.
而正是在怀孕期间，女性被视为地球上最具女性气质的存在，对吧？
And that's when we're seeing that women are seen as like the most feminine thing on the planet is when they're pregnant, right?
那正是她们睾酮水平最高的时候。
That's when they have the most testosterone.
我见过一些朋友服用睾酮，并以此为借口做出不良行为。
And I've seen friends of mine take testosterone and use it to justify bad behavior.
因为我认为我们中有些人需要经历一个适应期，期间会担心自己的男子气概需要得到那些有毒男性的认可。
Because I think there's an adjustment period for some of us where we're worried about our masculinity being validated by toxic men.
如果一个男人对你的跨性别身份、对你的男子气概指手画脚，那他很可能就是个混蛋。
If a man has an opinion on your transness, on your masculinity, he's probably an asshole.
所以他的意见根本不重要。
And so his opinion shouldn't matter at all.
确实如此。
That is true.
就像如果有男人指着你说'你不是真正的男人'，那他的男子气概就是脆弱且有毒的。
Like if some man's gonna point to you and say, you're not a real man, his masculinity is fragile and toxic.
我们为什么要让这些糟糕的政治立场定义我们的全部身份？
Why would we base our entire identity off of those bad politics?
所以我认为，当你看到那些本应是酷儿关系却变得非常异性恋规范化的案例，以一种糟糕的方式变得极度异性恋规范化时，往往是因为处于男性位置的一方在扮演支配角色，这就是我们所说的有毒男子气概。
And so I think when you see relationships that become very heteronormative, that are queer, that become really heteronormative in a bad way, it's that somebody in a masculine position is taking on a role of dominance, which is what we're we're calling toxic masculinity.
这就是支配。
It's domination.
而我们却认为，为了证明自己的男子气概，就必须模仿主导文化。
And we're thinking that in order to have our masculinity, we have to mirror a dominant culture.
其实不必如此。
We don't.
展现男子气概的方式还有很多更有趣、更美好的可能。
There are so many more fun, beautiful ways to be masculine.
男性气概真正的特权在于能够照顾好自己，并照顾好一位女性。
The real privilege of masculinity is getting to take care of yourself and getting to take care of a woman.
这种想法确实很老派。
And that is very old school of me.
显然每个人对此都有自己的理解，但我对男子气概的定义是关怀。
Obviously everyone can have their own relationship to it, but my version of masculinity is care.
当我处于支配地位时，那并不是男子气概。
And when I am in a place of dominating, that's not masculine.
你只是个恶霸。
You're just a bully.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实像是我看待那种男人的方式。
It does feel that is kind of the way I look at men who are like that.
我就觉得，哦，你心里有些东西还没想明白。
I'm like, oh, there is something's in there that you have not figured out.
也许你对自己作为男人的身份还不够确信，或者说...
And maybe you aren't so secure in who you are as a man or your Yeah.
我们有个拇指大小的小鸡鸡。
We got a little thumb looking dick.
是啊。
Yeah.
科学上讲，他们管那叫拇指般的小丁丁。
Scientifically speaking, they call that a little thumb looking dick.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
没错。
Yeah.
你挺着小胸脯走进房间，准备对一群人发飙，那你就是个拇指丁丁男。
You're walking into the room with your little chest puffed out and you're gonna be mean to a bunch of people, you got a thumb dick.
拉下来看看。
Pull it down.
让我们瞧瞧。
Let's see.
让我们瞧瞧。
Let's see.
证明看看。
Prove it.
哦，你是老大？
Oh, you're the alpha?
证明看看。
Prove it.
我们兜兜转转又回到生物本质主义，归根结底还是关于他们那话儿。
We get we go come like right back to biological essentialism and we're like, it's all about their dicks.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
对他们来说确实如此。
For them, it is.
确实如此。
It is.
这就像一种持续不断的执念。
It's like a constant obsession.
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