2025年顶级约会趋势与薇拉·班尼特

嘿，大家好。欢迎回到《Made It Out》。我们正在纽约为你们拍摄许多精彩的节目。今天我们有幸邀请到Willa Bennett，她是《Cosmopolitan》和《17》杂志的主编。我们将聊聊她的生活以及她如何走到今天这个令人瞩目的位置。

Hey, y'all. Welcome back to Made It Out. We are in New York shooting so many exciting episodes for y'all. And today is Willa Bennett, who's the editor in chief of Cosmopolitan and 17 magazine. We talk about her life and her journey to the incredible position that she holds now.

她还谈到了一些她观察到的趋势，比如Z世代如何变得更加专一，与政治观点不同的人约会有多难，以及如何在现实生活中而非约会软件上结识他人。这期节目非常有趣。

And some of the trends that she sees is how Gen Z is becoming more monogamous, how hard it is to date people with different political views than yourself, and also meeting people in real life instead of on the dating apps. Such a fun episode.

希望大家喜欢。

I hope you all enjoy it.

非常高兴你能来参加。

I'm so happy to have you here.

谢谢

Thank

你。我之前说过，我们团队简直欣喜若狂。我们讨论这次采访已经很久了。所以真的很感谢你能来。

you. I told you before, but our team is just, like, ecstatic. We've been talking about this interview for a long time. So thank you for being here.

当然不，应该是我谢谢你邀请我。你让我在《Cosmopolitan》团队面前显得特别酷，给我加了不少酷炫分。

Of course. No. Thank you for having me. You're making me look so cool with the Cosmos staff. You're giving me, like, cool points beyond.

大家都在说，哇，你要上那个超酷的播客了，太厉害了。我本来

Everyone's like, wow. You're going on that cool podcast. You're so cool. I was

还以为自己本来就很酷

like, I thought I was cool

的，不过还是谢谢你。所以我真的很感激你。

before, but thank you. So I'm really thanking you.

我想先了解一下，你是谁？你来自哪里？你在哪里长大？你的酷儿成长历程是怎样的？

I wanna start with just who are you? Where are you from? Where'd you grow up? What was your queer journey like?

好的。我是薇拉·班尼特，在洛杉矶长大。我曾是一名芭蕾舞者，感觉自己在舞蹈课上与许多女性共处，关系亲密。作为舞者，你会与共舞的人建立起这种特殊的亲近感。

Yes. Willa Bennett. I grew up in LA. I was a ballet dancer, and I feel like I was, you know, in dance classes with a lot of other women and close to them. And I I feel like when you're a dancer, you you have this closeness with your with the people you dance with.

我始终分不清那究竟是我们作为团队共同创造超越个体的艺术，还是我们真的相爱了。后来我去圣地亚哥参加舞蹈比赛时，第一次与一个女孩接吻了。

And I can never really tell if it was like we're a team doing like making something greater than us or if we're actually in love. Yeah. Of course. And then I went I've actually written about this before. But I I went to a dance competition in San Diego and I, like, made out with this girl for the first time.

那一刻我突然意识到：等等，这是我需要正视的事情。这彻底改变了我的认知。高中时我有个认真的男友，但回想起来他真的很了不起——他接受我在表面直女的关系中探索酷儿身份。

And I was like, wait. This is something I need to pay attention to. And that kind of, like, changed my whole view. I had a really serious boyfriend in high school, but looking back, he was kind of amazing in retrospect. Because he was like, you can be queer in a straight passing relationship.

他说没关系，如果你想和女孩接吻，完全没问题。

That's okay. Like, if you wanna make out with girls, that's fine.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以某种程度上，虽然当时没有明确的词汇描述，但我处在这种开放式关系里：我可以和女性亲密，而他从不与其他任何人交往。

So I kind of, like, in a crazy way was I didn't have the words for it at the time, but I was in this, like, open relationship where I would make out with women and he would never, like, see anyone else.

哇，这也太前卫了。

Oh my gosh. How progressive.

是啊，他真的很特别。那个...

I know. It really was. Like, he's amazing. What did

你父母怎么想？你会担心告诉他们吗？内心有过挣扎或冲突吗？

your parents think? Like, were you worried about telling your parents? Were you did you have any internal conflict or struggle?

他们其实并不清楚。就像，没人真正了解。这只是我在心理治疗中发现并讨论的事情。虽然我和朋友们聊过，但我觉得自己对这方面的了解还不够，不足以用传统方式公开。上大学时我单身，去了莎拉劳伦斯学院——这个话题我们待会儿会谈到。

They didn't really know. Like, no one really knew. It was just, like, kind of something that I was discovering and talking about in therapy. But, like and I've talked to my friends about it, but it wasn't really something I felt like I knew enough about to come out in a traditional sense. And when I went to college and I was single, I I went to Sarah Lawrence, which I know we'll talk about.

那时我第一次真正对女性产生了感情。有段认真的恋爱关系彻底改变了我的认知，我突然意识到：我必须正视这件事。可以说那是我更正式探索性取向的开端。

We I I started, like, actually having feelings for women for the first time. And I had this one serious girlfriend that kind of like really shifted. And then I was like, oh, I'm like really clear. I really need to take this seriously. And that was kind of the beginning of me exploring it more officially, maybe is a better word.

嗯。

Yeah.

但这绝对是个需要时间的过程。不仅要接纳自我，还要接受事情的非线性发展——那些困惑与混乱都是常态。

But, yeah. It's definitely a process and it takes time. And I think there's a lot of, like, acceptance you have to do not just of yourself, but, like, of things not being linear and confusing and yeah.

说到莎拉劳伦斯...对了，我其实没上过大学。

Okay. So Sarah Lawrence. Yes. Sarah Lawrence. Tell you, I didn't go to college.

真的吗？我都不知道这事。

Really? I didn't know that. No.

我直接进入房地产行业工作了。不过要是早知道莎拉劳伦斯这样的学校，我可能会被深深吸引。能给我讲讲那里的独特文化吗？毕竟很多人不太了解。

I didn't go. I I kinda got right into real estate and just started working. But I feel like if I would have known about a college like Sarah Lawrence, I could've I would have been really swayed. So I can you tell me about, like, the culture and what's different there just for people who don't really know?

这是所小型文理学院，距市区25分钟车程，坐地铁北线很方便。我当时获得了舞蹈奖学金，心想'那就去吧'，特别期待。到了才发现——那里简直太酷儿了。

Yeah. It's a small liberal arts school twenty five minutes outside the city. It's, like, off the Metro North. It's really easy to get to. I had gotten a dance scholarship there.

那里的氛围是默认你属于性少数群体。这加速了我的自我认知，虽然我曾和男生交往，但突然意识到：等等，这些亲密接触可能不只是玩闹。周围都是非二元性别和跨性别者，他们对自己身份的清晰表达，是我成长环境中从未接触过的。

And so I was like, okay, I guess I'm going. And I was very excited and I, like, got excited about it. And I got there and basically, it was like so queer. It was the type of thing where it was like, you were assumed to be queer before you were straight. Which I think also accelerated my own process because I was like, oh, I've like made out all these girls, but I had a boyfriend.

（沉默片刻）是的。

Like, I'm not queer. And then there I was like, wait. We we can actually take this seriously. And I I mean, like, everyone around me was, like, non binary and trans and, you know, also just so able to articulate who they were in a way that I I just hadn't grown up with. Yeah.

我是说，现在情况也不同了。我确实觉得随着年龄增长，世界变得更广阔了。但说实话，那时候基本上就只有Tumblr，差不多就这样。我也不知道。比如，你是在哪里...

I I mean, it's also different now. I I do feel like growing up, there is more out there. But really, like, it was just Tumblr, and that's kind of it. I don't know. Like, where did where did you

我在德克萨斯州长大的。

I grew up in Texas.

德州啊。确实，那根本不可能。

Texas. Yeah. So it's impossible.

是啊，确实。但那...

Yeah. It was. But did that

会让你感到不堪重负吗？绝对会的。我记得最初几次心动时，感觉自己又回到了14岁。那种感觉非常真实。

feel overwhelming to you? It definitely did. And, like, I I remember the first couple, like, crushes I had, I was like, I feel like I'm 14 again. Like Yeah. And that's that's real.

这被称为第二次青春期。我相信听众们都懂这个概念。基本上就是当你出柜后开始认真对待自己的酷儿身份，经历第一段酷儿关系时，真的会像初次坠入爱河般全情投入，仿佛正在经历字面意义上的第二次青春期。我深有体会，记得我第一个真正意义上的女朋友——或者说现在流行的说法叫‘情境关系’——那段经历简直疯狂。

It's called second adolescence. I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure everyone listening knows what that is. But it's basically when you come out and you start, you know, really like taking your queerness seriously and you have a first queer dynamic, you actually do it feels like you're falling in love for the first time and it's so all consuming and you feel like you're going through a literal second adolescence. And I definitely felt that way. I remember my first, like, real, I guess, girlfriend or real situationship, I guess you'd call it now, with a woman was like crazy.

我当时就想，天啊，我从来没有过这种心动感觉。

Like, I was like, oh my god. I've never had a crush before.

是啊。

Yeah.

这很不可思议，因为那时我已经22岁了，所以特别困惑。

And that's wild because I was also, like, 22, you know, so it's confusing.

所以我想知道你是怎么从舞蹈转到创意写作的。

So I wanna know how you got from dancing to creative writing.

是啊。我受伤了，有时候我确实觉得拒绝是一种保护。那是个非常严肃的回答。然后我的膝盖骨受伤了。恢复过程简直就像，基本上就是，你不能再跳舞了。

Yeah. I got injured, which sometimes I do think rejection is protection. That was a very serious answer. And then I got injured in my patella. The recovery was just like, basically, like, it was just like, you can't dance anymore.

大学毕业后我真的再也没跳过舞。我当时的反应是，哇。修完课程是为了保住奖学金。我想去杂志社工作。然后我就想，好吧。

And I graduated from college and literally never danced again. I, like Wow. Finished my courses so I could finish my scholarship. And I wanted to work in magazines. And I was like, okay.

既然不能跳舞了，那我就去杂志社工作吧。

If I'm not gonna dance, like, I wanna work in magazines.

你是怎么确定这个方向的？

And How did you know that?

我也不知道。这两件事就像是我反复横跳的兴趣。我几乎是求着莎拉劳伦斯学院让我上新闻课，因为我没正式被那个项目录取。说实话我的毕业论文某种程度上改变了现状——我花了一个月去初中和青少年聊他们怎么看杂志，并以此写了论文。

I don't know. Those were, like, my two interests that were kind of, like, going back and forth. Like, I basically begged Sarah Lawrence to let me take journalism classes because I didn't, like, officially get into the program. And my senior thesis honestly kind of changed today. I went to a middle school for a month and talked to teens about how they were reading magazines, and I wrote my paper on it.

我当时就觉得，杂志正在变革。人们仍然需要它们，我们只需要想办法借助社交媒体触达青少年，让这个行业未来也有发展空间——说真的这改变了一切。

I was like, you know, magazines are changing. They there's still a need for them. We just have to figure out how to leverage social to get it to teenagers and future proof the industry, and that kinda changed it all, honestly.

我想象这些杂志时

When I picture these magazines

嗯。

Yes.

想到的都是我年轻时看的样子。那些内容特别...比如怎么取悦男人，你知道的，非常直男向的内容。所以我觉得很有趣，你这么酷儿的人（会投身这个领域）？

I picture them, like, when I was young. Like, how they were very, how to please your man, and, like, you know, that they're pretty hetero. Yeah. And so it's also just kind of interesting to me that you so queer. Me?

太棒了。让我...

That's great. Let me

直视前方。知道吗，我的铆钉腰带、我的登山扣。我在迎合。我现在简直就是在搞酷儿诱饵。

look straight. Know. My studded belt, my carabiner. I'm pandering. I'm literally queerbaiting right now.

你说'那就是我想进入的空间'，这很有趣

It's interesting that you'd be like, that's the space

所以告诉我那种思维状态。其中蕴含着力量。真的，我认为，你知道，我在职业生涯中对此思考了很多，因为我曾在GQ工作过，也为《Teen Vogue》等媒体撰稿。确实有些东西值得探讨。

that I want to be in. So tell me that headspace. There's power in that. Like, truly, I think, like, you know, I I thought a lot about this through my career because I've worked places like GQ and I've worked place I've written for places like Teen Vogue. And like, there is definitely something to be said.

比如我记得为GQ写关于穿西装的文章时，它会引起人们的共鸣，真正帮助那些没接触过这类内容的人。我认为《Cosmo》拥有酷儿领导者是有力量的，因为它能开启更多对话，吸引更多人加入，这让我很兴奋。这绝对是新现象。虽然不能说每个《Cosmo》读者都喜欢它的酷儿风格，但我觉得这很重要，尤其是现在。

Like, I remember when I would like write a piece about wearing suits for GQ, like, it would just resonate with people and, like, really help people that weren't exposed to that type of content. I think there's a power of Cosmo having a queer leader because it it just opening it up to more conversations and bringing more people in and it's exciting to me. Think it's definitely new. I mean, I can't say that probably every single person who's reading Cosmo is, like, loving how queer it is. But I think it's important, especially right now.

而且我觉得这很有共鸣。现在很多人都在质疑自己的性取向，而我们的生存空间正越来越小，统计数据就是明证。所以简而言之，我无法做真实的自己。

And I think it's relatable. So I think a lot of people are questioning their sexuality right now, and there's less and less space for us right now, literally, statistically. So I don't know. I cannot be myself is the short answer.

当然。嗯。你刚进入这个行业时遇到过很多阻力吗？老实说，没有。我觉得

Of course. Yeah. When you first got into the industry, did you see a lot of pushback? Honestly, no. I think

我觉得只是方向不同。现在我发表的故事类型肯定不一样。我们正在做一个大型专题，关于性别认同与性取向的区别，以及相关的SEO关键词。现在搜索这些的人太多了，不知道是不是对特朗普行政令的反应，还是流行文化的一时风潮。

I think it's just different. I think the types of stories I'm publishing are definitely different. We're doing a big feature right now on, like, the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and, like, the SEO around that. Like, so many people are searching that right now. I don't know if it's just a reaction to Trump's executive orders or if there's just, a pop culture moment.

但非常有趣。这完全是当下的时代精神。感觉人们真的在努力理解和区分它们。太有意思了，这感觉像是2017年的重演。

But so interesting. It's so in the zeitgeist right now. I feel like people are really struggling to decipher them and distinguish them. And it's so interesting. It feels like 2017 again in that way.

所以我们现在正与GLAAD合作做一个非常实用的专题：没错，这些是不同的概念，这是它们的定义。我们确实在为读者提供资源。这是我目前观察到的令人惊讶的现象。我再次感觉到...

So, yeah, we're doing a big really helpful feature with GLAAD right now on, like, yes, they're different terms. This is how you define them, and, you know, we're really providing our audience with resources. But that is something I'm seeing right now that is surprising. I I feel like, again, like, I feel

2017年我们就见过大量关于性别与性取向差异的讨论，现在又卷土重来了。考虑到你在性别与性取向开放的环境中长大和读大学，我很好奇你的观点和经历，想必你的视角与国内大多数人截然不同。

like we saw a lot of discourse around gender and sexuality being different in 2017, but it's, like, back. Back. I'm curious to hear just your opinion and thoughts and, like, experience with it considering you grew up and went to college in an environment that was so open with gender and sexuality. So I feel like you probably have a much different lens than most of the country.

是啊，这很有意思。我认为这全是光谱式的，改变想法、产生疑虑都是正常的。我觉得这是我最希望高中时的自己能明白的事——没关系的。

Yeah. That's interesting. I think it's all spectrum and, like, it's okay to change your mind and, like, have thoughts and second guesses. And I think that's, like, the biggest thing I think I wish I knew in high school. Like, it's okay.

你不必永远固守某个标签。这听起来很简单，但我觉得现在人们恰恰缺失这种认知。特朗普让年轻人害怕质疑自我、改变想法，把身份变成僵化的东西。我最希望年轻人做到的，就是善待自己。要知道，改变对自我身份的认知完全没问题。

Like, you don't have to, like, stick to a label forever. It feels so simple, but I I think that's really missing right now. And I think Trump is making young people so scared to second guess who they are, like, change their mind and making it such like a a static thing. And that's the biggest thing I want for young people, is just to be nice to themselves. And, you know, it's okay to change your mind about who you are.

我认为爱本身就很复杂。你会因各种原因被某人吸引，应该允许自己去探索这种感受。对伴侣的期待会改变也很正常。这终究是非常私密的事，标签确实很难界定。

And I think that love is so complicated inherently. It's like you are drawn to someone for so many different types of reasons, and I think you should be able to explore that. And I think that's okay to change and, like, what you're looking for in a partner can change. And I think, again, like, it's just such a deep personal thing. I think labels labels are hard.

但了解标签定义很重要，这样你才有参照物来回调整。所以在《Cosmo》工作时，我坚持既要定义标签，也要给人改变主意的空间。我总是告诉人们：倾听身体的声音。你的身体知道何时该结束一段关系。

But I I think it's important that you learn about labels and have something to bounce back and forth between. And so that's why for Cosmo, I'm like, we should always define labels, but also give people the space to jump around and change their mind. And yeah. I I always just tell people, like, listen to your body. Like, your body knows when you should break up with someone.

你的身体知道被谁吸引，关于身份认同有太多本能反应。你能做的最重要的事就是聆听自己。

Your body knows when you're, like, attracted to someone. Your body knows, like, there's so much instinctual about identity. And I think the biggest thing you can do is just listen to yourself.

你说得太对了。不过你看起来像是那种始终...（被打断）啊这形容太离谱了，我刚想说‘糟糕’...

You're so right. I feel like you seem like the kind of person though that's always had that, like, tethered to That's nice. Just, like, outlandish and horrible. I was like, uh-oh. No.

不，你更像是始终清楚自己想要什么，并且忠于这些直觉。你自己有这种感觉吗？

No. You just seem like you've always known what you want, and you've been really tied to those instincts. Do you feel do you feel that way?

我想是的。说实话这也源于舞蹈训练——你必须与身体保持深度连接。我们刚有篇即将发布的文章，昨晚我在读，讲的是‘你的身体在抗拒恋爱关系吗？’

I think so. I think it also comes from dance. If I'm being honest, like, you have to be so in with your body to a degree. We we actually have this piece coming out that I was reading last night. It's like, is your body rejecting your romantic relationship?

内容主要是女性在分手前常感知到的征兆。我觉得特别有意思，不禁想起大学时第一次和女性的正经恋爱。记得每次约会身体都异常躁动，强烈到让我怀疑‘我是不是病了？’

And it's basically about, like, the signs that women often feel right before a breakup. And I thought that was so interesting. And I was actually thinking about my first, like, you know, real romance with a woman in college. And I was like, I remember my body feeling so crazy every time we hung out. Like, it was so overwhelming to a degree that I was, like, wait, am I sick?

出柜过程也是如此。当你在恋爱中感觉‘不对劲’时...我对高中男友就有这种感觉，总觉得某些需求未被满足，但又不是他的错。你觉得呢？

Yeah. And and I think with coming out too, it's, you know if you're, like, dating if you're, like, in a relationship and you're, this isn't right. And I did feel that way about my my boyfriend in high school where I was, like, something's, like, not fulfilling me and I don't think it's his fault. So, yeah. What what do you think of that?

我人生大部分时间都与自己的身体严重脱节。我想我有很多饮食失调的问题，就是，你知道的，我不爱自己的身体。而且我觉得我没有遵循自己的本能，这让那种分离感更加恶化。我常说我出柜后，饮食失调真的好转了。虽然减重不是目标，但我确实瘦了很多，身体感觉特别好，皮肤也变好了，各种方面都改善了。

I was super disconnected from body for most of my life. I was I think I had a lot of like eating disorder stuff and just, you know, I didn't love my body. And I don't think I was following my instincts, which made that, like, separation even worse. You know, I talk about how I came out and I my eating disorder, like, really improved. And, like, you know, I lot I not that weight loss is the goal, but, like, I lost a shit ton of weight and just felt really good in my body and my skin cleared up and, like, just all these things.

但我觉得这是因为我重新找回了自我，终于开始倾听自己真正想要和需要的东西。所以我觉得出柜真的改变了我的人生轨迹。我辞去了企业工作，开始做更多创造性的事情，追寻我一直知道想做却长期压抑自己的事。这一切都是相互交织的。

But I think it was because I was coming back into myself, and I was finally listening to the things that I wanted and that I needed. And so I feel like coming out really just, like, changed the trajectory of my life. I quit my corporate job. I, like, started doing more creative things and just following what I always knew I wanted to do, but I denied myself forever. I do think it's all entangled.

我认为每个人都可以有一个'出柜时刻'。因为我们都会随大流或模仿他人行为，直到某个瞬间意识到：等等，我现在的状态不对。即使不是性取向方面的事，这种回归本真、追随内心的觉醒——我也说不好。

And I think that everybody can have a coming out moment. Because I think we all do things that where we follow the trends or we follow what everybody else is doing. And then it's like, you have this moment of, Okay, wait. I'm not doing what I should be. And I think even if it's not being gay, it's like coming back to that and following those things are I don't know.

真的能彻底改变一个人。

Can really change a person.

完全同意。就像真正活出自己的人生。我有个朋友刚经历了一场特别惨烈的分手，她完全猝不及防。他们同居着，对方突然回家就提了分手。

Totally. And, like, really being in your life. Like, one of my friends just went through a pretty brutal breakup and she was, like, completely blindsided. Like, they live together. And someone just, like, came home and they broke up.

我一直跟她说：你会重新开始生活的。真的。这最终会变成发生在你身上最好的事。过几个月你就会发消息跟我说：我再次真正活出自己了。

And I kept being, like, you're gonna start living your life again. Like, you are. Like, this is gonna be the best thing that happened to you. Like, you, in, like, a couple months, are gonna text me and be, like, I'm in my life for the first time again. Yeah.

我也觉得不是每个人都能有那种觉醒时刻，无论是工作变故、突然失业还是意外分手。重要的是学会与自己的身体和感受共处，不要害怕面对。说实话这很难，人们太容易忽视自己的感受了——听起来你过去长期都是这样。

And agree. It's like not even everyone can have that moment, like, whether it's like something happens in your job or, you know, you get laid off or go through like a unexpected breakup. It's like, it's so important to just, like, be with your body and and your feelings and not be afraid of that. And I it's it's harder, I would say. Like, I think it's really easy to ignore what you're feeling, which it sounds like you were doing for a really long time.

而你的故事完美证明了：真正接纳自己终会获得回报。

And you're such an amazing story of, like, it pays off to really, like, be with yourself.

是啊。但我觉得社会根本没教过这些。完全没讨论过，也没人教。

Yeah. I think also, though, we don't we don't teach this. Totally. We don't talk about it. We don't teach it.

就连我妈妈——我很爱她，她已经尽力了——但她自己也不一定懂得如何做到这点。完全是这样。

It's not something that, like even my mom, I love her. She did the best that she could, but it's not something that she necessarily knew how to do. Totally.

是啊。所以我不会

Yeah. So I don't

认为我们特别在给女孩们灌输这种观念。这很有趣，因为我是和哥哥一起长大的，我看着哥哥被鼓励去做任何他想做的事。不要有备选计划。你知道吗？而我并没有得到同样的指引。

think we're, like, instilling this in our girls, especially. You know, it's funny because I grew up with a brother, and I watched my brother be kind of inspired to do whatever he wants to. Don't have a plan b. Don't you know? And I didn't necessarily get that same direction.

明白吗？所以我们如何教育男孩、如何教育女孩，或者说如何教育孩子，这很有意思。我们似乎不谈论这些身体感知的事情，也不将其灌输给孩子，但它确实会产生长远的影响。然后等你28岁走出来时，你会想，该死的，要是至少有人告诉过我这些，或者给过我选择的机会就好了。

You know? And so it's just interesting how we teach our boys, how we teach our girls, just kids in general. It's like we don't talk about these somatic things and, like, instill it into our kids, and then it does have, like, a long lasting. Then you then you turn 28 and you come out and you're like, goddamn it. Like, if at least somebody would have said this to me, like, or given me the option.

是的。我感觉

Yeah. I feel like what

我总是想对我的弟弟妹妹们说，恋爱关系不应该是疯狂的。实际上它们本不该让人感觉疯狂。当他们告诉我他们恋爱中的各种动态时，我会想，等等，这感觉不对。它应该是让人平静的，应该是令人兴奋的。

I always wanna say to my younger siblings is like, relationships, like, don't have to feel crazy. Like, they're actually not supposed to feel crazy. I feel like they'll tell me about different dynamics they're in romantically, and I'm like, wait, this is, like, not how it's supposed to feel. It's supposed to feel calming. It's supposed to feel exciting.

它应该让人感到振奋，但不应该是混乱的。真的不该是。我认为这尤其适用于你的身体——你知道什么感觉是安全的，什么感觉是美好的，倾听并尊重这种感觉，而不是认为你的处境就该让你哭泣。那不该是常态。世界上有人不会让你自我感觉糟糕。

It's supposed to feel, like, exhilarating, but not, like it's not supposed to be chaotic. Like, it's just not. And I think that is something, especially with your body, like, you know if something feels safe, you know if something feels nice, like, listen to that and honor that more than thinking that, like, your situation is to make you cry. Like, that's not how it should be. And there is someone out there that, like, is not gonna make you wanna feel bad about yourself.

是啊。我真希望更多人谈论这个。昨晚我在《Cosmo》上读到的一个故事让我深有共鸣，因为我想说，没错，你的身体知道答案。如果这段关系让你痛苦，就结束它。

Yeah. I I just wish more people talked about that. And I I really think this one story in Cosmo, I think it's why it resonated with me so much when I was reading it last night because I was like, yes. Like, your body knows. Like, break up with your situation ship if it's making you feel sick.

结束吧。听起来如此简单。

Like, end it. It seems so simple.

比如去森林里。还有更多人可选呢。现在说得太具体了。

Like, to the woods. There's more people. Too specific now.

是的。每当有人向我倾诉他们动荡复杂的感情问题时，我总会想到我和玛蒂尔德的关系——那是最轻松的。真的吗？最最轻松的关系。

Yeah. I will say whenever I hear people come to me with their relationship and it's, like, super tumultuous and there's all this, like, stuff. And I kinda just think of, like, mine and Matilde's relationship. It's been the easiest Really? Easiest, easiest relationship.

不。从第一天起，我们就知道彼此相爱，并且看到了长远发展的可能，仅此而已。从来不需要纠结该不该发消息或者玩什么把戏，懂吧。

No. From, like, day one, it was just like, yeah. We love each other, and we see we see it going the distance, and that's it. It's never been like, should I text you or should I, like, play? I don't know.

一切都很简单。我们解决了所有问题，会充分沟通彼此的感受。我妈总说，对的关系刚开始时应该是最快乐、最美好的时光。等到有了孩子，生活压力接踵而至时...

It's always just been very simple. Yeah. And we've worked through our problems, and we're very communicative on, like, how we feel about each other. And my mom always tells me, the beginning of a relationship that's right is gonna be the funnest, the best time ever. And then, like, once you start having kids and all of like, life hits, then that's when

那才是考验开始的时候。但初期确实应该轻松愉快。我特别认同这点——感情需要自然而然，彼此都能为对方的生活增色。

it gets hard. But it's like, it should be really fun and and easy. Yeah. I and I really, like, relate to that. I'm like, it needs to feel easy and natural and you're complimenting each other's lives.

当关系变得过于艰难复杂时...说起来有趣，前几天我爸给了我最棒的建议：'你没法选择家人'（笑）。

And the second it gets too hard and complicated, it's like, you know, it's funny. My dad said the best advice to me the other day. He was like, you can't choose who's in your family. True. Him.

他超棒的，就像我最好的朋友之一——说这话时我可带着爱意。但他接着说：'但你可以选择约会对象'。

Which I love. He's the best. He's like one of my best friends. I say that with love. I was like, but he's like, but you can choose who you date.

我当时就惊呼：'太特么对了老爸！'这道理多深刻啊，是吧？

And I was like, so freaking true, dad. Isn't that so true? Found. Yes.

就像你无法选择...

Like, you can't choose

家人，但能选择伴侣。总之我爸偶尔会爆出些金句。

your family, but you can choose who you date. Anyway, sometimes my dad's advice slaps every once in a while.

仔细想想，你其实是在为孩子选择未来的家人。太真实了，所以务必慎重考虑，免得将来被孩子怨恨。

And if you think about it, you're choosing who your kid's family is gonna be. So true. So really think that through before your kids hate you someday.

不，重点在于那个人必须让你感到无比幸福，让你自我感觉良好。沟通也至关重要——在Cosmo我们经常探讨健康关系的重要性。

No. It's just like it yeah. It's like that person needs to be making you so freaking happy and like, make you feel good about yourself. And communication is huge. I feel like at Cosmo, we talk a lot about healthy relationships.

贯穿始终的几乎总是开放、诚实的沟通。几乎总是如此。就像你最后读到的每一条个性化建议，都在强调开放、诚实的沟通。我深以为然。但关键在于，你们必须能够无话不谈。

And through line is almost always open, honest communication. Almost always. Like, pretty much every single personalized that you read at the end, it's like open, honest communication. And I'm like, so true. It's but it it like, you have to be able to talk through anything.

我常说外界很艰难，但两个人之间应该对事物有共识，像团队一样互相支持。当然，说起来容易做起来难。但我认为能够畅所欲言真的非常重要。

I always say the outside world's hard, but what you have between two people is like, you're supposed to be on the same page about things and team and supportive. And obviously, easier said than done. But I think being able to talk about things is so important.

我觉得以你的工作性质...哎呀。好吧。你肯定听过很多...确实。比如在建议或模式方面可能有很多共同点。能具体说说吗？

I feel like you probably, in the line of work that you do Uh-oh. Okay. You get to hear so Oh, yeah. Like, there's probably so many through lines with, like, advice and just, like or, like, patterns. What are some of them?

开放坦诚的沟通。没错。能够讨论任何事情。现在我在网上经常看到人们因政治观点不同而产生的约会困境，以及大家如何划定边界。这个话题目前非常热门。

Open honest communication. Yeah. Being able to talk about things. I think something right now that I'm seeing a lot across the Internet is, like, people dating with different political views and how hard that is and, like, what people's boundaries are around it. So that, I feel like, is very topical right now.

开放式关系曾风靡一时。而现在Z世代却表现出对一夫一妻制的强烈偏好，这趋势很有趣。感觉这类事情总是周期轮回，可能六个月后我又会说开放式关系回潮了。

The the open relationships and kind of had a thing. And now right now with Gen z, we're seeing that monogamy is, like, really appealing to them or appealing than usual. And that's kind of been interesting to watch. Kinda goes in waves, I feel like. So I feel like in, like, six months, I'll be like, open relationships are back.

但这仅针对年轻群体。我觉得这种现象很有意思，但也合理。外界如此令人不安，对正经历人生首次大选或刚获得投票权的年轻人来说，一夫一妻制能带来安全感。

But this is just for younger audiences. So I think that's been kinda interesting. I think it makes sense though. Like, it's so scary out there. So it's I I think there's comfort in monogamy for young people who are maybe this is the first, like, real election they're going through or the first time they're able to vote.

这像是自然演变。现在线下见面约会很流行，交友软件使用率下降——不过我认为之后会回升。这个现象很有趣。

So that feels like a natural progression. Going out and meeting in real life is really trendy right now. Dating apps are declining. However, I do think they'll probably pick up again. But it's interesting.

我确实认为当下人们普遍渴望传统浪漫邂逅。

I I really think people want, like, a traditional meet cute generally right now.

这完全说得通。我最近刚读到Z世代正在整体抵制网络文化的文章。想到我们的孩子会看到我们在网上的所有痕迹，然后说'妈妈当年真尴尬'，你不觉得可怕吗？

I that makes total sense. I actually did just read something about this, how it's like Gen Z is kind of rejecting online culture in general. And I think about it. I'm like, oh my god. Our kids are gonna watch, like, all the stuff that we put online, and they're gonna be like, my mom was so embarrassing.

你没想过这个问题吗？

Don't you think about that?

等等，这也太好笑了。天啊，我的孩子们要是听到这个，他们肯定会说，你疯了吧。

Wait. That's so funny. Oh my god. My kids listening to this, they're gonna be like, you're crazy.

你当时到底在干嘛？你就像在说，你不能选我。我也特么不能选你。

What the hell were you doing? You're like, you can't choose me. I can't freaking choose you either.

这真的真的超级好笑。我从来没想过这个，结果突然解锁了新焦虑。太感谢了。不客气。是啊。

That's so so so funny. I've never thought about that and then it suddenly new anxiety unlocked. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah.

我觉得这很有趣。我觉得浪漫邂逅的概念很有意思，因为仔细想想，我是在读爱情小说长大的。你会去咖啡店，然后绊倒，你未来的丈夫会接住你，接着第二天你们就结婚生子了。

I that's that's interesting. I I think the meet cute thing is really interesting because if you think about it, like, I grew up in, like, the love reading you know, like, reading love stories. You'd, go to a coffee shop and, like, trip and fall and your husband would catch you and then, like, you got married and kids the next day.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们现在可没这种事了。你早上去买咖啡时，不幸的是在刷Instagram，不停地划啊划，还要看看TikTok。

Like, we don't have that. So you, like, go to get your coffee in the morning. You're, like, on Instagram, unfortunately. You're, like, scrolling scrolling scrolling. You check TikTok.

你抽空回邮件。顺便说，你的咖啡已经好了，因为你是网上点的。太真实了。

You answer through emails. And by the way, like, it's like your coffee's ready because you ordered it online. That's so true.

太真实了。我最近刚听了个播客，他们在讨论我们因为总盯着手机而错过了真实的互动，比如在电梯里。

That is so true. And I actually just listened to this podcast where they were talking about Really? We are missing out on, like, real life interactions because we are looking at like, in an elevator.

特么的把你手机抬起来看看周围吧。

Fucking look up from your phone.

你正在错过，所以我们的社交能力在下降，因为没人会互相看对方了。

Like, you're missing and so our social cues are declining because none of us are looking at each other.

我的社交直觉确实在下降，这点我可以确认。比如这周就发生了件趣事——周三时，我常去的那家本地咖啡店，我每天都和店员布里聊天。

My social cues are definitely declining. I can confirm. Like, is this happened this week? It's so interesting. Wednesday, I have a local coffee shop that I actually do go to quite often, and I I talk to the Burris, like, every single day.

我总是给她带《Cosmo》杂志或别的，我们经常闲聊。她超爱电影，我们就聊这个。周三那天我在那儿和她聊了很久，她正给我做咖啡时，离开后有人私信问我：你是不是在那家咖啡店？

I always bring her cosmos or bring her magazines and, like, we talk. Anyway, she loves movies. We talk about movies. So I was there, like, kind of, like, a while on Wednesday just, like, talking to her and she's making me my coffee. And I left and someone DM'd me being, like, were you at this coffee shop?

我当时就懵了，但确实是我。立刻回复说对啊，结果对方说：天啊！真该和你打招呼的。

And I was, like, Like, what? But I was. So I responded immediately being like, yeah. And she was like, oh my god. I wish I said hi.

她说觉得像我又不确定，还说改天很想一起喝咖啡。我觉得她这么做简直太酷了。

I thought it was you, but I wasn't sure. Like, oh my god. Like, would love would love to, like, get coffee one day. And I was like, that is so cool that she did that.

是啊，虽然我也搞不懂

Yeah. Like, I don't know

这算是职业往来、私人好感还是浪漫邂逅，完全没头绪。

if it's professional, personal, romantic. I actually have no idea.

你必须去赴约，不然永远不知道答案。

You have to do it just because you have to find out.

我当时就说：你这么做太酷了，我肯定会去的。

I was like, it's so cool that you did that. I'm obviously gonna do it.

所以暂定吧。不过我当时的反应是

So TBD. But I was like,

这他妈也太酷了，换我绝对不敢这么做。

that is so fucking cool. I would never do that.

是啊。天哪。我也从没遇到过。

Yeah. Oh my god. Me neither.

我甚至永远不会 我连想都想不到

I would never even I wouldn't even know what

该说什么。但这

to say. But it

就像是，嘿。你是不是去过那家特定的咖啡店？比如，我看见你了。我当时就，是啊。然后她说，我简直不敢相信我没打招呼。

was like, hey. Were you at this specific coffee shop? Like, I saw you. I'm and then I was like, yeah. And she was like, I I can't believe I didn't say hi.

像是，天啊。我很想一起喝咖啡。我就住在附近。这可能是你们的浪漫邂逅。真的，希望如此。

Like, oh my god. Like, I would love to get coffee. I live nearby. This could be your meet cute. Literally, I hope so.

我会持续关注的。我会说，嘿。咖啡走起。我当时想，这他妈太酷了。我觉得想要浪漫邂逅，就别用交友软件。

I'm I'm gonna stay tuned. I'll be like, hey. Coffee go. I was like, that is so fucking badass. I think if you want a meet meet cute, get off the apps.

你会遇到的。我，我讨厌那些软件，我心里一直知道，我会以某种奇怪的方式遇见某人。结果就是这样遇到的。她当时在为一档真人秀选角，我们就这样认识了。

You're gonna get it. I I, like, hated the apps, and I always knew in my head, like, I am gonna meet someone in a very weird way. And that's how that I met. She was casting me for a reality TV show, and that's how we met.

这他妈太酷了。所以我在和我老板上床。懂吗？浪漫。别学这招。

That's so fucking cool. So I was fucking my boss. You know? Romantic. Don't do that.

《Cosmo》编辑说千万别这么干。

Cosmo editor says don't do that.

也许不该那样，但，你知道 你们结局不错。我们也是。那个...那个...当时是什么情况，

Maybe not that, but, like, you know It worked out for you guys. It worked out for us. What's like what's like what was,

你们早期有过一次艰难的对话，当时你们觉得，好吧，我们可以做到。

a hard conversation early on that you guys were like, alright. We can do this.

好的。我们相遇是因为她选角选中了我，然后我们开始约会。接着很明显，我就住在那儿。所以剧组人员会来，我就得带着包离开，然后装作我没住在那里一样出现。所以我就会说，嘿。

Okay. So we met because she cast me, and then we start dating. And then, obviously, like, I was living there. And so the crew would show up, and I would have to, like, leave and, like, bring a bag and then show up as if I hadn't as if I didn't live there. So I'd be like, hey.

你知道吗？而且我的狗在后屋。所以整个情况就很混乱。但后来节目要开拍了，我们就想，糟了。我们得告诉他们我们在约会，因为他们得在房子里拍我。

Like, you know what? And, like, my dogs were in the back house. So, like, it was just, like, all very messy. But then the show was gonna get greenlit, and so we were like, fuck. We like, we're gonna have to tell them that we're dating because then we're like, they're gonna have to film me, like, at the house.

现在你不得不出现在节目里了。这有点乱。电视台还做了全面的性关系调查，确保她没有用角色换取性好处。那段时期挺难的。那是一次艰难的对话。

Now you're gonna have to be in the show. It was just kind of like a mess. The network did a full sexual investigation to make sure that she wasn't, like, promising me a part for sex. So that was a little hard. That was a hard conversation.

确实很难。老实说，我确实说过

It was hard. Honestly Did say that

是次艰难的对话？艰难对话。对。

was a hard conversation? Hard conversation. Yeah.

整个过程都很难，因为玛蒂尔德真的不想

It all was hard because Matilde really did not want

上电视。

to be on TV.

她非常注重隐私。她不想被人搜索，你懂的。但现在我要上这个类似家庭主妇的节目，她就不得不出镜，因为我们在一起。所以这真的有点

Like, she is not she's very private. She doesn't want people, like, googling her, you know, whatever. And so then it was like, well, now I'm gonna be on this, like, basically housewife style show, and she's gonna have to be on TV because we're together. So it was just, like, really kind of

那确实很难。

That's hard.

一开始很复杂。就像是，我的需求与你的需求之间的冲突，什么是对的，诸如此类。但最终没有走到那一步，所以还好。而且这

Complicated at the beginning. And it was like, my wants versus your wants and what's right and, you know, whatever. But it didn't end up going through, so it was fine. And that's a

你谈到的很多内容都涉及你与名声的关系。你在谈论社交媒体，谈论各种动态，谈论职场中的互动。是的。

lot of things that you're talking about your relationship to fame. You're talking about social media. You're talking about dynamics. You're talking about in the workplace dynamic. Yeah.

我认为，对于一对刚在一起的情侣来说，要应对这么多事情确实不容易。但我常说，有时候这虽然不是祝福，但早期经历困难反而对关系有好处，因为你们学会了如何共同应对。对很多情侣来说，这几乎像是一个考验，早点经历反而可能是件好事。

That that's a lot, I think, to navigate as a early early couple. But I always say it's kind of sometimes a it's not a blessing, but it's like sometimes actually great for the relationship when something hard happens earlier because you learn how you navigate it. And I think with a lot of couples, is it kind of a deal breaker, and it's, like, almost nice to get that out of the way.

完全同意。我也觉得对大多数情侣来说，一起工作会是场噩梦，但我想我们就是这样认识的。而且我喜欢这样，因为我们的工作互动很大程度上反映了我们的关系互动。真的吗？

Totally. I agree. I also think, like, working together for most couples would be a nightmare, but I think that is how we met. And I also think I like it because a lot of our work dynamic is our relationship dynamic. Really?

哇，是的。我的意思是，这不会消失。真实生活中的我，很大程度上也是工作中的我。明白吗？

Wow. Yeah. I mean, like, it doesn't leave. Like, who I am in my real life is a lot of who I am in work. You know?

比如我的冲动，还有...我不知道，我不是很有条理。我就是这样，不会改变。所以很有趣，因为我们一直在通过各种不同的场景来沟通彼此的不同。

Like, my impulses and, like I I don't know. Like, I'm not very organized. I'm just it it doesn't change. You know? So it's like it's interesting because we're constantly communicating about our differences, like, through all of these different scenarios.

我觉得你就是这样了解一个人，然后你会想，好吧，我知道你是这样的。然后在工作中调整，这对关系也有帮助。我不知道，这很有趣，但需要很多沟通。

And I think you just learn a person and you're like, okay. I know you're like that. So and then you're, like, adjusting in work, and then that helps in the relationship too. I don't know. It's interesting, but and it takes a lot of communication.

是的，但这是好事，而且很健康。

Yeah. But that's good and, like, healthy. And

对。我不确定我是否推荐这种方式，但我们很喜欢。我想深入一点谈谈你提到的，你们经常听到关于与政治观点不同的人约会的看法。你们听到什么？你怎么看？

yeah. I don't know if I necessarily recommend it, but we love it. I wanna dig in a little bit about what you said that you guys hear a lot about dating people with different political beliefs. What do you hear? What's your thoughts?

这很有趣。我觉得现在尤其是女性在约会软件上，问题在于什么时候该问这个问题？很多情况下，比如在异性恋关系中，到了第三次约会，大家会想：这家伙会不会投票反对我的权利？或者不认同我的权利？这是我经常从异性恋动态中听到的。我得说，在同性关系中，这个问题往往出现得更早，因为他们本身就已经不符合所谓的‘常规’。

It's interesting. I think just right now, it's especially for women on dating apps, it's like, at what point do you ask that question? Like and and a lot of this is, like, actually, like, straight relationships being, like, hi, like, you know, we're all going on the third date and, like, is this guy, like, gonna vote against my rights or, like, not, you know, believe in my rights? I think that is something I'm hearing a lot from, like, heterosexual dynamics. I will say, like, inherently, I think it does come sooner in a queer dynamic because they're already kind of not the not the norm, I would say.

嗯。以及你已经在重现的那种动态。但我要说，在异性恋关系中，这是我们经常看到的情况。我们看到人们在四处寻找，并向我们寻求帮助。我认为并没有标准答案。

Mhmm. And the dynamic you're already recreating. But I will say in straight relationships, that is something we're seeing a lot. And we're seeing, like, search around and people are coming to us for help. I don't think there is an answer.

我觉得需要在合适的时机提出这个问题。你必须明确自己的底线。有些人会说，我甚至无法接受和对方约会。有些人会划清界限。还有些人表示可以接受某些观点，但某些信念就是他们的红线。

I think you have to bring it up when it's right. And you have to decide what your boundaries are. We there are some people that have said, like, I cannot even, like, go on a date. There's some people who draw a line in the sand. There are some people who are like, you know, I'm okay with these type of beliefs, but this is my, like, red flag.

我认为你应该做对自己正确的事，我不会评判你。但我完全理解并同情那些无法与投票反对自身利益的人约会的人。我觉得这对我来说也会非常困难。

I think you have to do what's right for you and I I won't judge you, but I I really understand and sympathize with someone that can't date someone that votes against their interests. I I think that would be really difficult for me.

是啊。我也有同感。我会直接说，我甚至没法去约会。我觉得现在恋爱综艺文化呈现的现象也很有意思。

Yeah. I feel the same way. I would be like, I can't even go on a date. I think it's interesting too what we're seeing in, like, the dating, show culture now. Yes.

《爱情盲选》里全是政治立场问题。对对对。

Love is Blind. It's like it was all political. Yes. And yes. Yes.

是的是的是的。好的。

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay.

太有意思了。因为现状就是这样。

So interesting. Because this is how it is now. Yeah.

《爱情盲选》里两对情侣都这样，这很耐人寻味。我编辑过相关文章，作者奥利维亚基本上就是说：这就是我们的现状。这就是我们这个时代的恋爱图景。

And it was, like, two for two on Love is Blind, and that's what's so fascinating. I edited a piece on it, and the writer Olivia, like, basically was like, this is where we are. Like, this is the era of dating we're in.

但我想说，我有自己的看法。我能说说吗？关于那个有同性恋妹妹的女生。她叫什么名字来着？

But I was like, I mean, I have my opinions. Can I say my opinions? Yeah. On that one girl who basically with the gay sister. What's her name?

直接说名字吧。莎拉。莎拉。哦你记性真好。好吧。

Let's say her name. Sarah. Sarah. Oh, you're good. Okay.

莎拉有个同性恋妹妹。是的。所以她正在和对方谈论乔治·弗洛伊德的事。她就像在说，我需要你在乎这些事。我需要和一个真正理解并关注这些问题的人在一起。

Sarah has a gay sister. Yes. And so she's making and and they're, you know, talking about George Floyd. And she's just like, I need you to care about these things. Like, I need to be with someone who really understands and is paying attention.

而他基本上就是...一开始你会觉得，没错。快对这家伙说点什么。比如我很高兴你能发声。但最后她却和他约会了。最后还嫁给了他。

And he's basically just like, I and at first, you're like, yes. Like, say say something to this guy. Like, I'm so glad you're speaking out. But then she ends up dating him. She ends up marrying him.

他们确实结婚了。

They do.

这才叫疯狂。是啊。我觉得结婚这件事太令人意外了，然后...

That's what's crazy. Yeah. I think the marriage was so surprising, and then the

另一段关系却结束了。所以就像...

other one ended. So it's like

《爱情盲选》里有两个例子。一个是他们讨论政治话题，虽然出人意料但也很令人失望。而另一个例子则是...

you have two examples on love is blind. One is, like, they had the conversation about politics. It was surprising, but it was also very disappointing. Done. The next one was like,

确实令人失望。然后她却说没关系，继续前进。还结婚了。这让我觉得特别奇怪。

it was disappointing. And then she was like, it's fine. You move forward. Married. Which is so weird to me.

我觉得这某种程度上像是在作秀。我也不知道该怎么说。

I'm like, how it feels performative in a way. I don't know. I mean,

那绝对是作秀。但还有一点很有趣的是，现在她因为嫁给他而遭到...

that's definitely performative. But also, what I'll say is so interesting is, like, now she's getting a

铺天盖地的谩骂。我就想，等等。什么？骂他倒也合理。

ton of hate for marrying him. And I'm like, wait. What? Hate him. Fair.

我是说，就是那种婚外情。

I mean, so affair.

他们两个，我就觉得，这种关系模式不太健康。但很明显，女方承受了所有骂名。整件事真的让人...很失望

Both of them, I'm like, that's not a good dynamic. But it's like, obviously, the woman's getting all the hate. It's just like the whole thing is, like, disappointing to

说实话，我也觉得既沮丧又压抑。不过我觉得这就是当下恋爱综艺的现状。你接下来肯定会听到...关于政治的内容，因为现实世界正在发生这些事。

me and, like, depressing, honestly. Yeah. But I do think, like, this is just where we're at now in these dating shows. I think you're gonna hear Yeah. About politics because that's what's going on in the real world.

是啊，真的特别有意思。我们之前有篇报道，作者瓦里什在特朗普当选前，花了整整一年时间研究右翼交友软件。

Yeah. It's it's really, really interesting. We had this piece. This writer, Varish, she spent an entire year on a right wing dating app before this is before Trump.

是那个叫Date Right的吗？

Was it date right stuff?

她试用了好几款。最耐人寻味的是她谈到性吸引力界限——具体到什么程度她会完全丧失生理欲望。剧透警告：她的底线是当话题涉及女权或LGBT权益时。

She did a bunch of different ones. It's really, really interesting. She talks about I think the part that is so nuanced in it is, like, her sexual attraction and, like, at what point she, like, actually couldn't be physically attracted to like, where that line draw was drawn. And her conclusion spoiler is that, like, the second it came to, like, women's rights or LGBT rights is, like, was her line in the sand. Yeah.

但其他方面她更包容，她用'共情'这个词，不过不完全准确。比如她确实有过愉快的约会经历。这种微妙差异我觉得特别耐人寻味。

But there were other things that, like, you know, she was more willing to, like, she uses the word sympathize for, but it's not quite that. It's like, she did, like, have a nice fun date. You know? Right. And that, I think, is so nuanced and crazy.

确实有趣。这是个发人深省的思想实验。因为当我处在稳定关系里时，很容易武断地说'我绝对不和这种人约会'。

Yeah. That is interesting. It's an interesting, like, thought experiment. Because it's easy when I'm like, I'm in a relationship, and I'm not out there dating these guys. Like, I'm like, fuck that.

但如果你身处其中，亲眼目睹男性群体这种...

I would never. Yeah. But if you're in the scene and and you're seeing this huge shift with

大规模的思想转变

all these men and this

事情的发展方向确实变得更加微妙了。

is where it's going, it does become more nuanced.

从统计数据来看，乔·罗根的播客绝对是第一名。所以就像，你的选择范围其实挺大的，比如在约会软件上遇到某人的几率，我不...

And statistically, Joe Rogan's podcast is literally number one. So it's like, your pickings are pretty like, there you have a pretty good chance if you're dating someone on a dating app, I don't

知道，会遇到的。是啊。这话你说到点子上了。对，很公平。

know, to running into. Yeah. You said it on me. Yeah. That's fair.

我来说吧。

I'll say it.

我当时就觉得，我太难过了。

I was like, I got too sad.

观众都懂我在想什么。没关系。我其实没说出来。

The audience knows what I'm thinking. It's fine. I was like, I didn't say it.

我觉得人应该保持阅读和好奇心。这也是我热爱真人秀的原因——你能看到来自各地的人互动，观察其中的动态关系实在太迷人了。真人秀领域就像一面未经剪辑的时代镜子。不知道是不是自从在《Cosmo》工作后，我最近真的迷上了真人秀。

I think you should always be reading and you should always be, like, curious. And I think that's why I love, like, reality TV because I do feel like there's people from all over, like, interacting. And just watching the dynamics, I think, is so fascinating. And, like, what's happening in the reality TV space is such a reflection of the zeitgeist in such an unedited way. I don't know if it's, like, more so since I've started working at Cosmo, but I've really been, like, into reality TV recently.

噢我超爱的！我是《家庭主妇》系列的铁粉，程度之深...

Oh, I love it. I'm a housewives stan. Like, in a way that

我以前可不是这样的。肯定是《Cosmo》改变了我——我现在真的会追真人秀。比如我们报道过嘉宾Gabby Windy的新闻，还有Robbie Hoffman的独家婚礼公告。我们应该做个Teenies专题。

I never was, though. I think it is the cosmo. Like, I've been cosmoed because I, like, really do watch reality TV. Like, we traders, we did Gabby Windy, who's been on here, and Robbie Hoffman's, like, wedding announcement, exclusive. We should have Teenies essay.

Trina Cordell她们太棒了。这个领域太有意思了，我们的观众也超爱看，可讨论的点实在太多了。

Trina Cordell. I love them. Yeah. I'm like all I I think it's such an interesting space and our audience, like, loves it. And I think it's it's so there's so much to talk about.

是啊，我超爱看真人秀。

Yeah. I love reality TV.

我一直觉得看真人秀的人其实很聪明。我们是在学习，真的，比如心理学和社交动态这些，我超爱。我会永远捍卫家庭主妇们。

I always been like, people who watch reality TV are actually very smart. We're studying, like I agree. Psychology and, like, social dynamics, and I I love it. I will defend the housewives forever.

太对了。看真人秀的人

So true. People who watch

Yaddie电视的观众是完美的。完美。好了，我们聊得有点散，但我有个问题要问所有人。

Yaddie TV are perfect. Perfect. Okay. We've jumped all over, but I have Yes. I have one last question that I ask everyone.

天啊。

Oh my god.

就是：你最近在心理治疗中重点解决什么？

It's what are you working on in therapy?

我在治疗中重点解决的？有意思。几件事：深呼吸保持平静、周日不工作。

I'm working on in therapy. That's interesting. A couple things. Exhaling, being, like, calm. I'm working on not working on Sundays.

我感觉自己几乎每周工作七天，现在真的很努力让周日清空大脑。还有多独自散步。这周主要就这三件事。

I I feel like I'm pretty, like, pretty much work seven days a week, and I'm I'm really trying to just, like, have Sundays to clear my head. And going on more walks alone. Those are, like, the three things this week that, like, I feel like are really prevalent.

不带手机独自散步。哦不。对的。

Walks alone without your phone. Oh, no. Yeah.

好吧。确实也该这样。我的治疗师艾伦听到你这么说会超开心。艾伦肯定会说：对，别带。

Okay. I mean, yeah, that too. That would be like my therapist, Ellen, would be so happy to hear you say that. Ellen's literally like, yes. No.

我一直在努力减少使用手机的时间，但我觉得周日真的应该完全留给与工作无关的事情。是的，我超爱这样。

I'm I'm trying to definitely be on my phone less in general, but I think Sundays, I'm really trying to, like, reserve for, like, nothing work related. Yeah. I love them.

那你周日具体都做些什么呢？

What do you do on Sundays, though?

散散步，喝杯冰沙，见几个朋友。对，就是完全不碰工作相关的事。我特别喜欢这样。

Go for walks, get a smoothie, see a couple friends. Yeah. Just, like, really not do anything work related. I love that. Yeah.

你最近在心理治疗中主要探讨什么？

What are you working on in therapy?

我在治疗中探讨什么？其实...我最近暂停了心理治疗...

What am I working on in therapy? I you know, I've taken a break from therapy for

天啊。

Scandal.

我知道。我有多久没做治疗了？大概两个月吧。我得找个新治疗师...

I know. How long have I not been in therapy? Like, a couple months. I need to find a new therapist. That

这就是艾伦。

is Ellen.

我现在的状态。艾伦，我需要推荐。我之前的治疗师跟了我三年，我很喜欢她，她总是给予肯定和温柔支持，这在我那个阶段确实很好。但现在我需要一个能质疑我、挑战我的人。

Where I'm at. Ellen, I'll take recommendations. I think my therapist, I've loved her for I've had her for, like, three years. I've loved her, but she she was very affirming and, like, soft, which was really good for the time frame that I was or the time period I was in. But now I think I'm in a different space, and I need someone who pushes back on me and challenges me a little more.

因为我经常走进治疗室时已经清楚自己的问题所在，我需要有人能对我说'等等'并推动我深入思考。而我觉得前任治疗师没能做到这点。

Because a lot of the times I walk into therapy, and I'm like, I know what's wrong with me. You know? And I'm telling her. And I need someone who's gonna be like, hold on, you know, and push. And I don't think I was getting that from my therapist.

我觉得去

I think going to

找到合适的治疗师真的、真的、真的被严重低估了。尤其是疫情期间，治疗师行业或人们寻求治疗出现了爆发式增长。现在我就在想，是不是每个人都找对了人？我经常对别人这么说，也总跟朋友讲：重要的不只是去接受治疗。

the right therapist is really, really, really, like, understated. I think, especially, there was, like, a boom of therapists or, like, people going to therapy in the pandemic. And now I'm like, is everyone with the right I I say that to people a lot. I say it to my friends all the time. I'm like, it's not just about going to therapy.

关键是要在对的时间遇到对的人。这就像一段关系，需要经营和培养。我一生中换过几位治疗师，我认为他们都适合当时的阶段。所以我觉得你能意识到'这样行不通'并采取行动，既真实又令人钦佩。

It's having the right person at that right time. And it's like a relationship. Like, you have to work on it and nurture it. I've had a couple different therapists in my life and, like, I think they were right for that time. And so I I think that's really true and really admirable that you were like, this isn't working.

我会另寻他人。但你确实应该重新找一位。

I'll find someone else. But you should definitely find someone.

是啊，确实。我挣扎了很久，因为我太喜欢她了。懂吗？她曾经对我帮助很大，但我选择暂停并再没回去是有原因的。

Yeah. For sure. And I fought it for a while because I love her so much. You know? And I feel like she was great for me, but there was a reason why I've taken a break and I haven't gone back.

你明白我的意思吧？所以几个月后的现在，我终于想通了：是时候了，该找新治疗师了。

You know what I mean? And so now just after a couple months, now I've been like, okay. It's time. It's time for me to find someone else.

伴侣治疗也很棒，你们试过吗？

And couples therapy is great. Have you guys been?

天呐！我们遇到过最疯狂的——听众们都知道——我跟你讲，史上最严厉的伴侣治疗师。是个俄罗斯女士，对我们特别苛刻。第一次见面她就说：'我不是来交朋友的'。

Oh my gosh. We have the crazy I mean, our listeners have heard this, but I'll tell you. The craziest, meanest couples therapist ever. She's like this Russian lady, and she's so hard on us. And when we first went, she was like, I'm not your friend.

她会连续吼我们其中一个人半小时，然后说'轮到你了'再吼另一个。效率奇高。据说这是种治疗方式，让你没时间瞎折腾。但我们现在觉得可能需要换人了。

I'm not here to make friends. And she'll just, like, yell at one of us for thirty minutes and then be like, you're next and then yell at the other. Very, like, efficient. But she's like, apparently, it's a method of therapy where it's like, you don't have time to fuck around. Like, you're just going but also we're like, I think we need to find a new therapist.

因为实在太激烈了。我们只需要微调，又不是要离婚的濒危夫妻，可她总把我们当成那种情况。实际上我们关系挺好的。

Wow. Because it's it's a bit intense. And we're like, we just need, like, touch ups. Like, we don't need we're not like she's like, if you're going through a divorce, like, you're you're on the brink. And we're like, we're fine.

我们就是做些定期交流，懂吗？需要有人监督我们。不过对，那就是我们的情侣治疗。

We just, like, check ins. You know? We need somebody to hold us accountable. So but, yeah, that was our couple's therapy.

哇，太疯狂了。我居然不知道这事。真的特别疯狂——我们刚发了篇超有趣的文章，讲现在二十多岁女性流行通过情侣治疗来帮助分手的趋势。哇哦。

Wow. That's wild. I actually didn't know that. So, that's wild, wild, There was this article we just published that was so interesting that this new trend where women in their twenties are going to couples therapy to help them break up. Woah.

这就像新型分手方式，特别有意思。统计显示年轻女性特别害怕和伴侣分手，因为现在约会环境太艰难了，她们直接找治疗师说‘我需要分手帮助’。这其实...

And it's like, is the new breakup through couples it's really interesting. And, like, there's all these statistics where it's like like, young women are just, like, so scared to break up with their partners because it's so hard out there with dating where, like, they're just finding therapists being like, I need help with this. Then that's Not

不算坏主意。挺有趣的，

a bad idea. It's interesting,

但我就在想，我

but I'm just like, I'm

居然要花钱买分手服务。

gonna pay for my breakup.

我也是这么想的，不过又觉得确实合理。

That's like where my mind went, but I'm also like, I think that makes sense.

听起来像是你会干的事。她太逃避型了，肯定会赖着不走。这很逃避型人格，玛蒂尔德真该试试这个。

It sounds like something you could have done though. She's so avoidant. She would like stay. It is very avoidant. So it sounds like something Matilde could have used.

我们玩个游戏，叫‘搬家公司还是鬼魂’。对方什么都好就一个怪癖——沉迷密室逃脱，

So we play a game. Fun. It's called U Haul or U Ghost. So they're perfect in every way except for this one quirk. They're an escape room enthusiast.

每周都去练习。选鬼魂！太吓人了。你玩过吗？

Like, they go weekly to practice. Ghost. Ghost. Scary. Have you ever done one?

不，当然不会。

No. Of course not.

它们真的很有趣。天啊，我其实超爱它们的。

They're really fun. Oh my god. I I actually love them.

真的吗？是啊，我喜欢。

Really? Yeah. I do.

我...好吧。这么说吧，我只有在回德州老家没事可做时才会玩密室逃脱。可能我兄弟姐妹会一起去，但我们...

I okay. Well, I will say, like, the only time I do an escape room is when I'm, like, back home in Texas and don't have any else to do. And so maybe my siblings will go, but we're

其实挺擅长的。真的？好吧，可能说得有点夸张，但如果你对这事如此狂热，对我来说确实有点吓人。行吧。

actually really good at them. Really? K. Maybe that's extreme, but I I just am like, if that is, like, the thing that you're so passionate about, there's something scary about that for me. Okay.

这很合理。比如我会注意看出口标志，而你...我就不会这样。

That's fair. Like, I'm like, are you looking at the exit signs when we go and you yeah. I don't I'm just like,

幽灵。好吧。那如果你们刚确定关系，她就把你拉进家庭群聊呢？而且你不回复她还会生气。

ghost. Okay. What about as soon as you are, like, official, you're dating, she adds you to a group chat with her family. Oh. And she gets upset if you're not responding.

消息炸个不停。叮叮叮地响。

It's popping off. It's ding ding ding.

我觉得很贴心啊。我喜欢见约会对象的父母，觉得特别温馨，完全不吓人。对我来说这是爱的表现。

I think that's sweet. I love, like, meeting the people I have dating parents. Like, I think it's, like, so sweet and it's not like, that's not scary for me at all. To me, it's like a sign of love.

好吧，我喜欢这个。所以U型拖车...

Okay. I love this. So U Haul,

我想是吧。你会

I guess. Will you

告诉大家在哪里可以找到你吗？

tell people where they can find you?

好的。薇拉·H·本内特，《时尚》杂志，欢迎订阅。谢谢

Yes. Willa h Bennett, Cosmopolitan, subscribe. Thank

你再次

you again for

来到这里。天啊。谢谢邀请我。

being here. Oh my god. Thank you for having me.

当然。这期节目就到这里。感谢大家收听今天的节目。一如既往，请通过撰写苹果播客评论、在Spotify上给我们评分、以及分享给所有你认识的人，来帮助我们传播LGBTQ+议题。如果还没加入，欢迎订阅我们的会员社区'Made It In'，获取独家《Made It Out》媒体节目、内容和聊天室，网址是madeitout.supercast.com。

Of course. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening to today's episode. As always, help us spread the gay agenda by writing an Apple review, rating us on Spotify, and sharing with everyone you've ever met. And if you haven't yet, join our subscription community, Made It In, for exclusive Made It Out media shows, content, and chat rooms at madeitout.supercast.com.

《Made It Out》由玛蒂尔德·乔丹制作，完全由女同性恋团队打造。

Made It Out is produced by Matilde Jordan and worked on solely by lesbians.

我是个深陷其中的女同。现在我就住在这个网络里了。

I'm a lesbian who is caught up in the web. I just live here now.