Mantra with Jemma Sbeg - 我允许自己不完美 封面

我允许自己不完美

I Allow Myself to Be Imperfect

本集简介

本周的箴言是:"我允许自己不完美。" 完美是个移动靶,追逐它只会让我们与人性、快乐和成长渐行渐远。本期节目中,我们将探讨如何放下不切实际的期望,与自身缺点和解,展现真实而不完美的自我。允许不完美并非放弃,而是以进步为荣,并给自己在学习过程中留出空间。这句箴言温柔地提醒你:即便在最未完成的时刻,你也值得被爱,本就足够。 《箴言》是PAVE Studios打造的OpenMind原创播客。你可以在任何播客平台收听。如需无广告收听及提前解锁剧集,请在Apple Podcasts订阅OpenMind+。 别错过《箴言》的一切动态! Instagram: @mantraopenmind | @OpenMindStudios TikTok: @OpenMind Facebook: @0penmindstudios X: @OpenMindStudios YouTube: @OpenMind_Studios 了解听众数据及隐私政策请访问:https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy 了解广告选择请访问:https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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这里是《开放思维》。欢迎来到全新的一周。这是你的箴言:我允许自己不完美。我是杰玛·斯佩克,每周一我都会给你一个简单而有力的短语,供你思考并融入生活,这是一份指引你未来一周乃至更远人生的哲学。

This is Open Mind. Welcome to a brand new week. Here is your mantra. I allow myself to be imperfect. I'm Gemma Speck, and every Monday, I give you a simple but powerful phrase to consider and bring into your life, a philosophy to guide you in the week ahead, and hopefully even beyond.

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在每期节目中,你们都知道我会解析箴言的真正含义,分享它在我生活中的体现,以及如何通过日记提示和每周挑战将它付诸实践。在《开放思维+》社区,我们非常重视你们的支持,请务必在社交媒体分享感想,记得给《箴言》节目评分、评论和关注,帮助更多人发现这个节目。想获取独家内容、每月额外剧集、提前收听和无广告体验,请加入我们在Apple播客的《开放思维+》社区。每月我还会在额外剧集中回答你们的问题和留言,欢迎在本期节目下评论,或通过Instagram私信@MantraOpenMind联系我。请继续收听。

In each episode, you guys know I unpack what our mantra really means, how it has shown up in my own life, and how you can hopefully bring it into yours with journal prompts and a weekly challenge to help you take this mantra and put it into action. At Open Mind Plus, we really value your support, so please make sure to share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review, and follow Mantra to help others discover the show. For more exclusive content, monthly bonus episodes, early access, and ad free listening, join our Open Mind Plus community on Apple Podcasts. Each month, I also respond to your questions and comments in our bonus episodes, so feel free to leave a comment on this episode, or you can DM me on Instagram at Mantra Open Mind. Stick around.

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短暂休息后马上回来。好的,让我们直接开始。现在是本周箴言时间:我允许自己不完美。让我们先从探讨不完美的对立面开始。

We'll be right back after this short pause. Okay. Let's get right into it. It is time for this week's mantra, I allow myself to be imperfect. Let's start by exploring the opposite of imperfection.

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让我们谈谈完美。首先讨论它为何无法企及,其次为何我们仍盲目追求。几个世纪以来,完美以各种形式被奉为人类终极理想——那个我们应当共同追求的终极形态。我们不断试图提升自我:优化外貌、优化表现,但最终是为了达到什么?

Let's talk about perfection. And let's talk about why it's firstly unattainable, but secondly, something that we still blindly aspire towards. Perfection is one of those ideals in some form or another that has been held up for centuries as the ultimate human aspiration. The final form that we should all be aiming for. We should constantly be trying to better ourselves, to look better, to optimize ourselves, to optimize our performance so that we can get to what?

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那个巅峰时刻——成为毫无问题、毫无缺陷、完美无瑕之人的极致体验。从小我们就被灌输无瑕英雄的故事,看到完美无缺的美貌影像,听闻白手起家获得全面成功的叙事——这些人在奋斗途中从未犯错。

This peak moment, this peak experience of being the perfect human with no issues, no flaws, no nothing, no imperfections. From the time we're young, we are told stories of flawless heroes. We see images of flawless beauty. We hear narratives of flawless success, people who came from nothing and now have everything. And along the way, they didn't do anything wrong.

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即便犯错,也非他们之过。他们始终是如今我们所知的伟大人物。我认为完美的诱惑在于它看似承诺:只要事事正确、满足所有人且永不犯错,我们就能免受拒绝、评判和失败。这本质上是关于控制的终极幻想——认为完美能让人生完全按预期发展,从而避免痛苦。

Or if they did, it wasn't their fault. They were always this grand, great person we know them to be now. The allure of perfection, I think, lies in the promise that it seems to hold. If we can just do everything right, if we can just be everything to everyone and never make a mistake, we'll finally be safe from rejection, we'll be safe from judgment, we'll be safe from failure. It is, I think, the ultimate fantasy of control and this idea that if we are perfect, life will unfold exactly as we want it to, and we won't experience pain.

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我们将不会经历苦难,不会遭遇任何身而为人的艰难处境。所以这本质上仍是关于控制,关于渴望确定性,关于确保我们能预知未来并通过改变行为来实现预期结果。

We won't experience suffering. We won't experience any of the sometimes hard things about being human. And so it really is, again, about control. It's about wanting to be certain about things. It's about wanting to make sure that we know what's gonna happen and that we can change our behavior to make what we wanna happen happen.

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我认为这和其他大多数事情一样,本质上是心理层面的。关键在于——剧透警告,虽然我相信在座的各位都明白这一点——世上没有完美的人,没有人能满足所有人对完美的标准。因为符合一个人的标准,就必然会辜负另一个人的期待。没有人能成为所有人的心头好。在我看来,正是那些不完美之处,才让人真正变得更好。

It's deeply psychological as are most things, I think. The thing is, spoiler alert, although I'm sure every single one of you listening already knows this, there is not a single human alive who is perfect and who would meet every single person's standards for perfection. Because by meeting one person's standards, they would always fail someone else's. There is not a human alive who can be every single person's cup of tea. There is not a human alive who isn't actually made better, in my opinion, by their imperfections.

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不完美实际上比完美更特别、更美妙、更有人性,因为它让我们变得复杂而独特。为什么我们不关注自己独特的个性?为什么不聚焦于错误和教训带来的智慧?为什么不珍视那些通过尝试、失败从而获得成长的人生经历?

Imperfection is actually, I think, more special, more wonderful, more human than perfection ever will be because it's what allows us to be intricate. It's what allows us to be unique. Why don't we focus on all the ways that we're individual? Why don't we focus on the brilliance of mistakes and learnings? Why don't we focus on the life experience that is brought about by trying and failing and therefore expanding?

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我们不关注这些,是因为在成长过程中有人教会了我们。他们让我们相信完美是可以实现的。不仅如此,如果我们不去追求完美,我们就是问题所在。我们就是标准未能达成的原因。如果我们不以此为激励和抱负,就是在加速社会的崩塌。

We don't focus on these things because somewhere along the way someone did teach us. They were able to get it into our mind that perfection is possible. And not only that, but if we're not striving for it, we are the problem. We are the reason that the standard hasn't been reached. We are contributing to societal collapse or societal downfall by not making this our inspiration and aspiration.

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这种观念从何而来?它始于那些最贴近我们、最接近人性核心的机构。家庭、学校、文化、媒体,甚至父母无意中都会奖励良好行为和成就,同时惩罚错误——哪怕是孩子完全可能犯的正常错误。于是他们在我们尚未察觉时,就种下了持续成功和永远优秀的观念,这形成了一种有条件的接纳感。

Where does this begin? It begins with the institutions that are closest to us and closest to our epicenter as humans. So family, school, culture, the media, parents even unintentionally, they reward good behavior and achievement whilst punishing mistakes, even those that are completely normal for a child to make. And so they plant this idea of continual achievement and constant goodness well before we even recognize it. And it creates this kind of sense of conditional acceptance.

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除非你做到完美,成为我们期望的一切,否则你不会被接纳,不会被爱。即使父母没有这样做——我知道有些人的父母确实没有,他们在这方面关系很健康——但学校绝对会这样做。他们通过分数、排名、SAT成绩来强化这一点,通过构建一个用数字和字母衡量价值的世界——无论是A+、99分,还是50人中的第一名。如果学校是我们接触的第一个机构,你就能明白这种环境会如何延续到职场、社交圈、健身房等生活的方方面面。而文化通过广告、社交媒体甚至职场标准,不断展示经过修饰的成功、美丽和幸福的理想形象,让人无处可逃。

You will not be accepted. You will not be loved whether you do this perfectly, whether you are everything that we want you to be. Schools, even if your parents didn't do this, which I know some people's parents didn't and had such healthy relationships with this, schools though definitely do, and they reinforce this through grades, through rankings, through SAT scores, through setting up a world, a microenvironment where worth is measured in numbers and letters, in a's and a pluses and in 99 percents and whatever it is, 50 out of fifties, or being number one. And so if school is the first institution we probably come across, you can see how those environments continue to be replicated the older we get in workplaces, in social clubs, in the gym, in all areas of our life. And culture through advertising, through social media, even through workplace standards consistently presents, again, these curated idealized images of what success, beauty or happiness should look like so that there is absolutely no escaping it.

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家里逃不开,学校逃不开,职场逃不开,地铁上、火车里、街头巷尾都逃不开。久而久之,我们真的开始内化所有这些不同的声音。

There's no escaping it at home. There's no escaping it at school. There's no escaping it at work. There's no escaping it on the subway or on the train or walking around on the street. Over time, we really begin to internalize all of these voices, these disparate voices.

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我们开始内化这样一种观念:除非我们做到完美,除非我们自己完美无缺,否则就不会快乐。如果我们确实无法完美,至少可以展现完美的表象。可悲的是,完美在生物学、心理学和生理学上都是不可能的。我要说清楚:作为人类,你我的天性就是会犯错。

And we begin to internalize this idea that we will not be happy unless we do something perfectly and unless we ourselves are perfect. And if we can't actually be perfect, we can most certainly present a perfect facade. The tragedy is once more that perfection is biologically, psychologically, physiologically impossible. Just gonna make that super clear. As human beings, you and I are actually wired for error.

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我们通过试错来学习。从字面上看,这是神经通路形成和突触修剪发生的少数方式之一。我们在不足中成长,我们的身体和心智都建立在持续的不完美之上。细胞会变异,记忆会出错。

We learn through trial and error. Literally, that is one of the only ways that neural pathways and synaptic pruning takes place. We grow through falling short, and our bodies, our minds are built on constant imperfection. Cells, they mutate. Memory fail.

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情绪会波动。甚至我们对完美的概念本身也不完美,它会随时间、文化甚至视角而流动变化。某一代人或文化视为完美的事物,在另一代人眼中可能满是缺陷。我认为这在审美标准上尤为明显——不同年代对体型的褒贬态度天差地别。而你总会觉得,某些人的身体天生就该长那样。

Emotions fluctuate. Even our idea of perfection is not perfect and is fluid and changes across time, across culture, even across perspectives. What is seen as perfect in one generation or culture can be seen as deeply flawed in another. I think this is especially the case with beauty standards and how different physiques are either praised or hated depending on what decade it is. And you always think, you know, this is just how someone's body naturally looks.

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我们本不该像橡皮泥般被塑造成今年流行这种体型,明年又换成那种。今年你必须骨感纤细,明年我们又开始追捧丰臀。后年又要追求运动型身材,大后年又得重新瘦回去。这种所谓的完美标准本身就不完美,因为它连自己到底要什么都不知道。

We are not meant to be shaped and molded like we're Play Doh into this type of figure one year, this type of figure the next. You need to be tiny and thin this year, but then next year, we're gonna prioritize and think that people who have hips are hot. And the year after that, you have to look athletic. And the year after that, you have to go back to thin again. And it's like, literally, our standard of perfection is, again, not even perfect because it doesn't even freaking know what it wants.

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作为社会整体,我们年复一年都无法确定真正的完美标准。从这个意义上说,完美不仅是不可企及的,更是无法定义的。它就像沙漠中的海市蜃楼,当我们以为快要触及时——以为即将饮下那美妙神秘的完美灵药时——

And us as a society cannot land on what we actually think perfect is year after year. In this sense, perfection isn't just unattainable. It's undefined. It's very much like a mirage in the desert where we think we're almost there. We think we're gonna drink, you know, this beautiful, wonderful secret elixir that is perfection.

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刚翻过沙丘,它又出现在远方,随即消失不见。我们永远无法抵达。这就像跑步机上的追逐。

And then right as we go over the hill, there it is. Again, in the distance, it disappears. We will never reach it. It is like a treadmill. It's like a treadmill that way.

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你以为自己在前进,实则只是在耗尽体力。可即便如此,完美这个概念依然畅销。想想看:整个产业都在利用我们的不安盈利。他们通过推销完美来赚钱,这样才能向我们这些不完美的人兜售商品——毕竟我们永远比不上广告牌里那些完美形象。

You are convinced that you're getting somewhere, but really you're just exhausting yourself. Yet despite that, again, perfection sells. Think about it for a second. Industries profit from our insecurities. They make money from promoting perfection because then they can sell us us imperfect humans, the ones who are not as perfect as those on the billboards or in the ads.

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那些所谓的通往完美的秘密配方,不过是他们精心设计的营销话术。只要我们购买他们推销的化妆品、遮瑕膏、水壶,遵循某种生活routine,去特定健身房...就能变成广告里的样子。企业正躲在完美主义理想背后,伺机向我们推销商品。我们被洗脑认为不完美是需要花钱修复的缺陷,而非生命本身的常态。

The so called secret formula to getting to where they believe or where they've presented people can be. You know, we can become what they're representing if only we buy what they're selling. If only we buy this makeup product or we buy this type of concealer or this type of water bottle or we have this type of routine or we go to this kind of gym. There are corporate structures that are hiding behind our perfectionist ideals ready to pounce and sell us something. We become convinced that imperfection is a problem to be fixed and to be bought away rather than the very condition, I think, of being alive.

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这对企业来说是个财务上可行的概念。听起来可能像阴谋论。我知道我这样滔滔不绝可能显得有点奇怪,但确实有整本书、整篇博士论文论述过:不完美与完美的永恒斗争是绝佳的营销工具,能带来巨大收益。可悲的是,当我们把不完美视为需要隐藏的东西时,就失去了在他人面前全然做人的机会——那种我们灵魂深处真正渴望的活法。

This is a financially viable concept for these companies. It might sound like a conspiracy. I know I'm probably sounding a little bit strange talking on and on about it, but there have been entire books. There have been entire doctorates written on how imperfection and perfection and their constant battle are incredible marketing tools and make a lot of money. The sad thing is though, when we treat imperfection as something to hide, we lose the chance to be fully human in front of others in a way that we have really deeply called in our soul to be.

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脆弱性往往是拉近人与人距离的关键。但当我们隐藏错误、掩饰缺陷或挣扎时,呈现的只是那层没人能真正产生共鸣的抛光表面。这造成了真实的、可感知的隔阂——在我们和最想触及的人之间。因为我想他们能察觉到这种表演,能感觉到这不是真实的,不是真正的我们。

Vulnerability is often what draws people closer to us. But when we hide our mistakes, when we hide our flaws or our struggles, we present only that polished surface that no one can actually fully connect with, that no one can relate to. This creates a real distance, a noticeable distance between us and the people we most wanna reach because I think they can sense the performance. They can sense that this isn't real. They can sense that this isn't really us.

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但他们想要的是面具之下真实的你。他们只是不知道如何找到那个人。久而久之,这种隐藏真实自我与伪装完美之间的鸿沟,这种因害怕犯错而退缩的状态,会让我们陷入极度孤独,心底总有个声音在说:没人认识真实的我们。没人会爱真实的我们——因为我们从未给过他们机会。

But they want the person underneath. They just don't know how to find them. Over time, that gap between hiding who we really are and pretending to be something we're not or trying so hard to not make mistakes that we withdraw means that we become very, very lonely and means that there is this quiet sense deep down that nobody knows the real us. Nobody would love the real us because we've never given them a chance. We've never allowed them to.

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我们常以对自己苛求不可能的标准——这些标准我们绝不会强加于所爱之人。因为在内心深处,我们把自我价值与表现挂钩,却明白他人即使一生碌碌无为也有价值。你存在即有价值。他们不完美也有价值。对他人,我们能认识到错误、怪癖和挣扎恰恰是人性所在,正是这些让我们爱上他们。

We often as well hold ourselves to impossible standards that we would never expect from the people that we love because deep down, we equate our self worth with performance, but we understand that others have worth even if they never achieve anything in their life. You have worth just simply by existing. They have worth even if they're not perfect. For others, we can recognize that mistakes, quirks, struggles, that's what makes them human. That's what makes us love them.

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正是这些带来欢笑,缔造联结彼此的精彩故事,见证我们在对方生命中的重要存在。但回到自身时,恐惧又浮现:如果让人看到这些,他们会觉得我不配属于这个群体,不配站在他们面前。这种双重标准赤裸裸揭示了我们对自己何其严苛,对他人却如此宽容。

That's what brings about laughter. That's what brings about great stories that connect us and show that we were there for important parts in that person's life. But, again, when it comes to ourselves, we have this fear. If I were to show people this, they would know I am unworthy of belonging in this group or unworthy of being in their presence. And this internal double standard reveals really just how harshly we judge ourselves compared to the compassion that we are so willing to extend to others.

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但让我们探索另一种可能:如果开始让他人看见我们的缺陷,而非藏在完美面具之后呢?我想人际关系会以近乎灵魂层面的方式深化。正如布芮尼·布朗所说,脆弱是通往亲密的桥梁,它传递着信任的信号。

But let's explore this other possibility. What if we began to let others see our flaws instead of hiding them behind a mask of perfection? I think our relationships would actually deepen in profound, almost spiritual ways. Vulnerability is the bridge to intimacy as Brene Brown says. It signals trust.

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当我们承认'其实我也一团糟'时,就给了他人同样的许可,创造了用真实取代表演的空间。不必再为维持表象耗尽心力却永远无法全然活在当下,我们终于能体验被全然接纳的解脱感——不仅是解脱,更像是卸下重担,挣脱枷锁,摘掉面具,真实存在。这种转变将重塑我们最亲密关系的本质,比较之心从此消弭。

When we admit, you know, I don't have it all together, we give others permission to do the same, and we create that space where authenticity replaces performance. Rather than exhausting ourselves to keep up with appearances and then never fully being able to be present, we actually begin to experience the relief of what it feels like just to be accepted exactly as we are. And not just the relief, but just like this sense of unburdening that you can just, like, release the shackles, drop the mask, be present. This shift transforms the dynamics of our closest relationships. There is no longer comparison.

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不再有暗中的较劲,不再有刻意的隐藏,不再强求他人看到你并不喜欢的那些部分。你能通过共情、共同的人性、以及那些关于犯错后依然成长(或尚未成长)的共享故事,真正与他人建立更深层的联结。要知道,别人也同样经历过这些。

There is no longer silent competition. There is no longer hiding things. There is no longer wanting people to see the parts of you you don't really like. You are able to really relate further through empathy, through shared humanity, through shared stories of the times that you made mistakes and you grew anyways, or maybe you didn't. But, you know, someone else made it as well.

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这些错误和缺陷不再成为羞耻的源头,也不再成为建立联结时那种热烈而美好的契机。当我们拒绝接纳不完美时,我们也失去了人类最强大的成长驱动力——失败。心理学家早就指出,错误不仅是挫折,更是关键的信息来源,是宝贵的数据。

These mistakes, these flaws stop being a source of shame, and they stop being a really enthusiastic and wonderful source of connection. When we don't embrace perfection as well, we also lose access to one of the most powerful drivers that we have as humans, the most powerful driver of growth, which is failure. Psychologists have long emphasized that mistakes are not just setbacks. They are actually essential information. They are sources of data.

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它们是反馈循环,教会我们:即使行不通的事依然有价值,仍能引领我们接近正确答案——即便当下感受不到。恐惧不完美会剥夺我们与生俱来的学习本能。我们不再尝试并说'好吧这方法不行,可以划掉了',而是蜷缩在安全区,固守着可控的现状,不敢探索那些真正让人感到鲜活的可能性。

They are feedback loops that teach us that what doesn't work out still has value and still allows us to get closer to what does even if in that moment it doesn't feel like it. When we fear imperfection, we rob ourselves of this very natural innate learning process. Instead of experimenting and saying, okay, that didn't work. I can cross that off my list. Instead of expanding, we stagnate in the small, safe versions of ourselves, and we cling to what feels manageable rather than venturing into what really, I guess, feels alive.

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讽刺的是,恰恰是那些不完美铺就了通往精通、智慧、创造力的道路,让我们真正接纳自我并对身份感到坦然。这背后还有另一个关键点:冒名顶替综合征与完美恐惧的关联——它们比多数人想象的更紧密。这两种体验的核心,都根植于'除非达到虚幻的完美标准,否则我们自身或产出永远不够好'的执念。冒名顶替综合征让我们担心失误会暴露'骗子'本质,而完美恐惧则让我们不惜一切代价避免失误。

Ironically, it is in fact our perfections that carve out the path to mastery, to wisdom, to creativity, to truly feeling the way we wanna feel about ourselves and feeling good about our identity. There is also another element of this that we need to discuss. The link between imposter syndrome and our fear of imperfection, because they are actually very closely linked and more related than what most people would think. At the core of both of these experiences, impostor syndrome and the fear of imperfection, lies this relentless belief that who we are or what we produce is never enough unless it meets some imagined flawless standard. Imposter syndrome convinces us that any misstep will expose us as frauds, whilst the fear of imperfection convinces us that missteps must be avoided at all costs.

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两者都让我们把自我价值与走钢丝般的能力、外部认可、控制的幻觉捆绑在一起。幻想'只要一切符合预期就能避免人生痛苦'——其实谁都做不到。这种心态下,每个项目、每段关系、每个机会都变成必须完美的考题,而非可供享受的学习过程。真正的精通与自信源于从错误中反弹的能力,源于把不完美视为财富的智慧——但冒名顶替综合征和完美恐惧蒙蔽了我们的双眼。

In both cases, our worth becomes entangled with our ability to walk this tightrope, with external validation, and with the illusion of control. And the idea that if we can just make everything just as it should be, we can not experience or we can avoid the pains of life, which we all know nobody can. When we live in this mindset, every project, every relationship, every opportunity feels like a test, feels like something that we have to get right rather than something that we can actually just have fun with and learn from. True mastery, true confidence comes from being able to rebound from mistakes and comes from being able to accept imperfection as an asset. But both of these experiences of imposter syndrome and our fear of imperfection blind us to that.

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这就是为何许多能人深陷双重困境:对被识破的恐惧助长了完美主义循环,严重挤压了创造力、冒险精神和尝试不确定事物的空间。那么出路何在?如果我们开始以不同方式对待不完美会怎样?如果我们视不完美为资产呢?改变将会非常深远——

That is why so many highly capable people struggle with both because their fear of being found out fuels a perfectionist cycle that leaves very little room to be creative, to take risks, to do things that they're unsure of. So what is the alternative here? What might happen if and when we start treating imperfection differently? What would happen if we started seeing imperfection as an asset? So many things.

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深远到我们需要稍作休息再继续探讨,以便消化已讨论的内容并以新视角回归。稍后我将分享这些见解,以及它们在我生命中的具体体现。欢迎回来。既然我们已经剖析了今日箴言'我允许自己不完美'背后复杂的多层含义,现在该进入个人实践部分了。

So many things that I think we're gonna need to take a short break and then talk about them in a second so we can just process what we've talked about so far and come back with a bit of a fresh mind. So I'm gonna share all of that and so much more along with how this has showed up in my own life after this shortly. Welcome back. Now that we've looked at the very complex multilayered meaning behind today's mantra, I allow myself to be imperfect. It's time to get personal.

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我想和大家聊聊这句话如何体现在我的生活中,以及我的一些见解和反思。我骨子里流淌着完美主义。我认为我的父母都是彻头彻尾的完美主义者,尽管他们不愿承认。虽然他们并没有刻意把这种特质强加给我,但这一定是遗传的。他们做得很好,只是让我明白:你只需要存在并快乐,这就是我们在乎的全部。

I wanna chat with you guys about how this has showed up in my own life and some of my own insights and reflections about this phrase. I have perfectionism in my veins. Both my parents, I think, are deeply, deeply perfectionist people, even if they won't admit it. And I don't think they actually put too much of that on me, but it must have been genetic. I think they did such a good job of being like, you just need to exist and be happy and that's all we care about.

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我不知道这种完美主义是何时潜入的。这种如同寄生虫和瘟疫般的完美主义悄然占据了我的思想,并以多种方式显现。我首先想到的是学业。当我们面对学校、工作、人际关系这类结构时——它们往往并不简单直接,或者说在终点总有一个我们想要达成的明确目标。无论是升职、取得好成绩、与某人共度一生,还是获得他人的喜爱。

I don't know where it came in. Somewhere along the way, this perfectionism, parasite, and plague snuck into my mind and has since showed up in many many ways. The one that I primarily think of is school. I feel like when we have those structures like school, like work, like relationships, that aren't very straightforward or that are very, I guess, there's like a real goal at the end of the tunnel that we wanna work towards. Whether that's a promotion, whether that's getting good grades, whether that's being with someone forever or getting someone to like you.

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这正是完美主义最易滋生的地方,因为它痴迷于目标。尤其喜欢将目标推至遥不可及的程度。学生时代,我总觉得成绩、个人形象和学术表现就是衡量我全部价值的标尺。一切都与之挂钩。因为它如此具体,很容易成为我衡量自我价值的依据。

That is where our perfectionism shows up the most because it loves a goal. And it specifically loves to push a goal until it is unattainable and beyond belief. When I was in school, I just remember feeling like my grades and how I present myself and how will I do academically is the entire wealth and magnitude of my worth. Everything is tied back to this thing. Because it was this very discreet and very easy thing to tie my worth to.

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就像非此即彼:要么做得好,要么做不好。做得好就证明我优秀、勤奋、聪明;做不好就说明我不够格。这件事能确认我的某些特质。我渴望通过它来认识自己。

It was like either I do well or I don't do well. And if I do well, well then I'm good, and I work hard, and I'm intelligent. And if I don't, well then I know that I'm not. This thing was able to confirm something about me. I wanted it to tell me something about myself.

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我的成绩不再只是数学考试分数或英语阅读深度的体现,而变成了我道德品质和人生价值的象征。这导致了一些强迫行为,也时常引发拖延症,而拖延又会催生更极端的强迫行为和自我破坏倾向。这种循环周而复始,伴随我度过了大学时光。

My grades became larger than just how well I did on a math test or how deeply I had read an English book or an English assignment and became a symbol of my morality and my worthiness as a human. That led to some very obsessive behaviors. It also led to a lot of procrastination at times as well, which would then be counteracted with some, again, very obsessive behaviors and very hard working self sabotaging tendencies. And that cycle kind of went round and round. It followed me into uni.

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它跟随我进入企业职场,某种程度上至今仍在。其实我想探讨这个主题的念头,源于几周前与一位听众的对话。那是在我的图书巡回签售会上,芝加哥的一位听众问我:'制作播客时,你如何应对不完美带来的焦虑?'

It followed me into my corporate career. And in some ways, I think it still stayed. Actually, my desire to talk about this mantra really came from a conversation I had with a listener a few weeks ago. This is at one of my book tour stops. And I had this listener in Chicago asked me the question, how do you deal with the anxiety around imperfection when making the podcast?

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这确实是个绝妙的问题,但当场我却难以作答,因为有时我觉得自己根本没能处理好。所以现在我要给出这个答案:我并非总能妥善应对,但我已明白——不完美是你为尝试与失败支付的代价,也是未来某天尝试与成功必经的路途。它是终有一天你能说出'看啊,我努力了这么多,终于做对了'所必须付出的代价。

And it was honestly such a great question, but I also struggled to answer it on the spot because sometimes I don't think I do deal with it. So here's the answer I would have given. I don't always deal with it well, but I understand now that imperfection is the price you pay for trying and failing and then one day trying and succeeding. It is the price you pay for one day being able to say, look at all this I tried. Finally, I've gotten it right.

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要知道,当我刚开始制作《二十几岁的心理学》时,用的是iPhone录制,音质很差,也不完美。但我必须先接受这种不完美,因为若在最初几年甚至最初几天就追求完美,只会制造重重障碍和更深的困扰,等到真要录制节目时,我反而会觉得自己根本不配做这件事。我需要它保持原貌,需要它只是我当时愿意且能够完成的样子,然后才能继续前进。有些道理,除非我自己犯错,否则永远学不会。

You know, when I started making the psychology of your twenties, it was on my iPhone and it wasn't very good quality and it was imperfect. But I needed to do it imperfectly first because trying to aim for perfection in those early years or even those early days would have created so many major roadblocks and so many deeper complications that by the time I came around to recording an episode, I wouldn't have felt worthy of doing it anyways. I needed it to just be what it was. I needed it to just be whatever I was willing and could make at that moment, and then we could go from there. There was also things that I was not gonna be able to learn unless I made the mistakes myself.

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无论别人给你多少关于启动项目、开始工作、转行或创意事业的建议,总会有他们遗漏的地方。即便他们告诉你某些事,有些道理你仍要亲身经历才能真正明白。这正是我认为自己必须经历的过程。这段经历不可思议地重塑了我的大脑——让我学会把不完美和错误归类为学习经验而非破坏心情的元凶,并珍视这些经历继续前行。正因为我能坦然接受事情不会尽如人意,接受自己永远不可能成为完美的人,接受作品永远存在缺陷,我反而无所畏惧,敢于尝试。

No matter how much advice someone may give you for starting a project, starting a job, starting a new career, starting a creative endeavor, there's always gonna be something they forget. And there's always gonna be something that even if they tell you about, you still won't understand until you learn it yourself. And so that's really what I think I had to go through and I had to do. And it was incredible at reprogramming my brain to see imperfection and mistakes as not something that needed to ruin my day, but something that I could file away under learnings and hold sacred and move on from there. I think because I was willing to embrace that things weren't gonna work out and that I could never and would never be this perfect person and the things I made would always have some kind of fault, I had no fear and I could just try.

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这个项目最初有种隐形特质——《二十几岁的心理学》刚起步时,我几乎没有听众,也谈不上成功。但这其实妙不可言。初期的不成功反而给了我探索的空间。所以有时候当你尝试新事物时,要记住:没有人会像你自己那样严密审视你的人生。没人在意那些你认为自己不够好、缺乏吸引力或其他任何缺点。

There was also this kind of invisibility to this project, to the psychology of your twenties when I first started it, which was that I didn't really have any listeners and I didn't have any success. And that was actually amazing. It was amazing to actually not be successful at the beginning because I had room to explore. And so sometimes I think when you're trying something, you just have to remember that there is no one watching your life as closely as you are. There is no one obsessing over all the things that you think are wrong about you or unattractive about you or whatever it is.

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根本没有观众。为你自己表演。确保你的行动可见,但评判权只属于你自己——如果这说得通的话。因为我们对不完美的恐惧,本质上是对评判的恐惧。不完美确实会暴露我们的脆弱。

There is no audience. Perform for you. Make sure that your actions are visible, but only to be judged by you and you only, if that makes sense. Because I think that our fear of imperfection is more deeply a fear of judgment. Imperfection, it does expose us.

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遗漏的细节、失败的尝试、明显的瑕疵、牙缝里的菜叶、忘记拉上的裤链...这些时刻都在提醒我们:别人会看见我们狼狈的样子。人类大脑天生渴求归属感,所以当我们暴露缺陷时,会感到被评判的威胁,这感觉近乎于遭受流放。

A missed detail, a failed attempt, a visible flaw, food in your teeth, your fly undone. You know, these moments remind us that other people see us in these vulnerable spaces. You know, the human brain is wired for belonging. So when we feel exposed, we also feel judged, and that feels threatening. It almost feels like a form of exile.

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因此真正令人痛苦的不仅是犯错本身,更是想象中那些注视着我们、评价我们、证实我们对自己最糟糕猜想的眼睛——正是这些想象阻止我们再次尝试,阻止我们回到可能被人指指点点的境地。本质上,这当然是社交恐惧:我们不想在职场上显得无能,

That's why it's not just about making the mistake itself that feels so painful. It's the imagined chorus of eyes that are watching us and evaluating us and confirming our worst fears about ourselves that stops us from trying and stops us from once again being put in the place where someone could point to us and say, look, they did that wrong. Look, that wasn't right. At its core, this is, of course, a social fear. We don't wanna be seen as incompetent at work.

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不想在约会时显得缺乏魅力,不想在人生里程碑上落后于同龄人。那么最佳解药是什么?追逐完美,奢望能无限接近它。尽管明知完美不可企及,但这种追逐完美转移了我们的注意力,让我们不必坐下来深刻审视镜中的自己和生活,去思考:这一切究竟意味着什么?

We don't wanna be seen as unattractive in dating. We don't wanna seem behind in life's milestones compared to our peers. So what's the best antidote to that? Chasing perfection, hoping just hoping we can get as close as we can. And even though we know it's unattainable, it's such a great distraction to not sitting down and looking deeply in the mirror and at our own lives and thinking, what is this really representing?

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我究竟在害怕什么会发生?这正是我想邀请你回答的问题。如果有人评判你,究竟会发生什么?如果你被拒绝,又会怎样?一个人因为自己的偏好或问题而不喜欢你,实际代价是什么?

What am I so afraid of is gonna happen? That's the question I really want to invite you to answer. What exactly would happen if someone judged you? What would happen if you were rejected? What is the actual cost of one individual not liking you because of their own preferences or because of their own issues?

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知道吗?我不会替你回答这个问题,但我想你能得出最终结论——其实没什么。你总能从别人不喜欢你的情况中恢复过来。这是个值得停下来思考的强大问题,因为它让我们看到:这种恐惧之所以可怕,是因为我们审视得不够,它有种无形的感觉,像被神秘面纱笼罩着——我们知道自己应该害怕,却不知为何。而当我们真正自问:我究竟为什么要害怕不完美或被评判?

You know what? I'm not gonna answer that for you, but I think you can get to the end conclusion, which is nothing. You can always recover from someone not liking you. This is such a powerful question to pause on because it allows us to see that this fear the reason that it's so scary is because we don't examine it enough and there's this, like, kind of sense of invisibility to it and the sense of, like, shrouded mystery where we, like, know we should be afraid, but we don't really know why. And then when we really ask ourselves, why exactly should I be afraid of imperfection or judgment?

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当我们揭开这层面纱,就会发现:哦,其实什么都没有。这有点像是个骗局。我其实没什么好怕的。我们常把这些事想象成灾难,但实际上失败、不被喜欢、做错事都只是信息而已。我们预期的代价远比现实要高。

And we pull back the curtain, we're like, oh, there's actually nothing here. This was a bit of a trick. I actually don't have anything to fear. We often imagine these things as catastrophic when in reality, failing, not being liked, doing something wrong, it's simply information. The cost we anticipate is much lower in reality.

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我们的生活不会因为某次在某个情境下不够完美就被毁掉。事实上,我们可能反而会更受欢迎。当然矛盾的是:评判无论如何都会发生。就连完美也会招致挑剔。想想你认识的最美的人。

We are not going to have our lives ruined because we weren't perfect one time in one situation in one instance. In fact, we may even be liked more. And, of course, the paradox is that judgment is gonna happen regardless. Even perfection invites scrutiny. Think about, like, the most beautiful person you know.

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想想某个模特,你认识的最有名的模特。依然会有人说'她并不怎么吸引人'。想想帕梅拉·安德森——我最近经常想到她。她可以说是世界上最美丽的人之一。

Think about a model, the most famous model you know. There are still people who say, oh, she's not very attractive. Think about Pamela Anderson. I've been thinking about her a lot recently. Arguably one of the most beautiful people in the world.

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人们依然能找到不喜欢她的理由。想想世界上那些最善良的人,最温和的人,人们依然能找到不喜欢他们的理由——因为说到底,问题不在他们身上,不是吗?问题从来不在他们,而在别人。

People still find a reason not to like her. Think about some of the kindest people in the world. Some of the most gentle people still find reasons not to like them because, again, it's not about them, is it? It's not about them. It's about other people.

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认识到这点才能真正获得自由,因为它向我们揭示:完美只是个虚假的盾牌。真正的韧性不在于从不被评判,而在于学会在别人非议中活出真实的自己。以下是关于不完美的建议:首先要明白,不完美反而能产生动力,并开启成长型思维。有证据表明,成长型思维是成功人士共有的首要特质——他们把错误看得和成功同等重要。

Recognizing this is truly freeing because it shows us that perfection is just a false shield and that true resilience comes from not never being judged, but from learning to live authentically despite what other people are gonna throw at you. Here are some tips for being imperfect. My first tip is to understand that being imperfect actually generates momentum, and it unlocks a growth mindset. There is evidence that a growth mindset is the number one thing that people who are successful have in common. They see mistakes as just as important as their successes.

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接纳完美同样重要。我们也要记住,这实际上能让你更有创造力。它能让你成为更好的朋友。这种重新定义事物的行为,理解它将创造更多联系,实际上会创造更多机会,让你得以拓展。在心理上适应这一点非常重要。

Embracing perfection as well. We also wanna remember it actually makes you more creative. It makes you a better friend. And that act of reframing things and understanding that it's gonna create more connection, it's gonna actually create more opportunities, it's gonna allow you to expand. It's really important to be more psychologically comfortable with it.

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我也希望你们反思一下你们心目中的英雄,那些你们崇拜但并不完美的人。朋友、家人、流行明星、媒体红人、书中角色,每一个你崇拜的人,他们身上都有不完美之处,都有会被他人评判为缺陷的地方。那是什么?确保这些特质同样成为你故事的一部分,就像你接纳英雄的不完美一样接纳自己的这些部分。反思生活中那些催生美好事物的不完美。

I also want you to reflect on those heroes of yours, people who you admire who aren't perfect. Friends, family, pop stars, media sensations, book characters, every single one, anyone you admire, there's something about them that is imperfect, that someone would judge as imperfect. What is it? Make sure that that's just as much a part of your story as well, the acceptance of those parts of you as it is of your acceptance of your heroes. Reflect on the imperfections in your life that created good things.

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不要只关注一切顺利的时刻。要关注那些——比如我们在公路旅行中拐错了弯,却发现了这辈子去过的最棒的馅饼店。要关注那些——比如我错过了火车,结果发现火车本身也故障了。正因为我叫了优步,反而更快到达了工作地点。应该说,要关注那些与交通无关的例子。

Don't just focus on everything that worked out. Focus on the times that, oh, you know, we took a wrong turn on this road trip, and we found the best pie store I've ever been to. Focus on the times that, you know, oh, I missed my train, but turns out the train broke down anyways. And so because I got an Uber, I actually got to work faster. Focus on some non transit related ones, I should say.

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就是那些你犯错、事情不如意的时刻。你没得到心仪的工作。约会对象拒绝了你,但这一切都是最好的安排。学会与这些时刻和解,与不完美和解,因为接纳它们表明你欣赏人类存在真实的多样性和光谱——就像箭必须先向后拉才能向前射。说到创造力,我知道这很具体,但它确实浮现在我脑海。

Just times that you made mistakes and that things didn't go right. You didn't get the job you wanted. That person rejected you on a date, and it was all for the best. Be okay with those moments and with being less than and being imperfect because being okay with them shows that you appreciate the real spectrum and diversity of human existence and the fact that sometimes you need to be like an arrow pulled backwards before you can be flung forwards. Also, when it comes to creativity, I know this is a very specific one, but it really did come to my mind.

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给自己设定创作时限。不要纠结于如何完美完成每件事。不要因为认为存在完美选项就花数年做决定——根本不存在。不要因为纠结时间的最佳用途而推迟行动、推迟出行、推迟创作。

Give yourself time limits to create. Give yourself time to not linger on how to do everything just right. Don't allow yourself to spend years making a decision because you think that there's gonna be one perfect one. There won't be. Don't delay doing things, going places, making things because you're obsessed with what would be the best use of your time.

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时间的最佳用途就是做点什么。你永远无法预知是否存在完美的未来、完美的下一刻或完美的作品。你只需要创造些什么,这总比什么都不做强。对于那些因控制欲而追求完美的人,这是个好练习:让别人来主导,让别人把事情搞砸。

The best use of your time is just to do something. There's no way of knowing if there is a perfect future or a perfect next moment out there or a perfect creation. You just have to make something, and that's better than nothing. And also for my people who are obsessed with perfection out of a need for control, this is a good exercise, which is just to let other people lead. Let other people make a mess of things.

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让别人负责。松开缰绳,看看当事物不完美或不如你所愿时,并不总是灾难。你不必永远掌控一切。我认为以这种方式接纳不完美,反而让我的生活更轻松——更放松、更自由,不再浪费所有时间和精力去追逐我永远无法达到的完美。

Let other people be in charge. Let go of the reins and see how when things aren't perfect or aren't exactly as you want them to be, it's not always a disaster. You don't always have to be in control. I think embracing imperfection in that way has actually made my life easier. It's made it a lot more chill, a lot more freeing that I'm not wasting all this time and energy trying to capture something that I just never was going to.

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思考不完美是一回事,而将这种意识带入日常生活又是另一回事。希望这些建议对你有所帮助。稍事休息后,我会给出一些通用提示,并公布本周的挑战任务,请继续关注。

It's one thing to think about imperfection and another to bring that awareness into our daily lives. So I hope some of those tips have helped you with that. After this break, I'm gonna give you some general prompts. I'm gonna give you this week's challenge. So stick around.

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我们很快会回来继续讨论。欢迎回来。本周的箴言是:我允许自己不完美。经过所有讨论后,是时候用这句话来沉淀自己了。从今天的深度思考开始,这句话来自萨尔瓦多·达利:不要害怕完美,因为你永远无法达到它。

We'll be back for more very, very soon. Welcome back. This week's mantra is I allow myself to be imperfect. After all our discussions, it is time to ground ourselves in this phrase, starting with our deep thought of the day, which comes from Salvador Dali, have no fear of perfection. You will never reach it.

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我发现这句话初看有些骇人,细想却又令人释怀。那个'永远无法达到'中的'永远',当我第一次读到时就困惑:什么叫永远?我不喜欢这种确定性的结论。

You know, I find that statement to be both initially, it was kind of scary and secondly, quite freeing. You know, that you'll never reach it. That big never that's in the center of that quote. When I first read it, I was like, what do you mean never? I don't like these possibilities, these certainties.

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但他真正想表达的是其中蕴含的自由。我们无需恐惧那个大家都害怕无法达到的境界,因为它根本不存在。这句话戳破了那个幻觉——认为只要完美,一切都会变好,人生就会无忧无虑。

But what he's really saying is there's freedom in that. There is no need to fear this thing that all of us are kind of terrified of not being because it doesn't even exist anyway. And I think it really gets to that illusion. The illusion that if we're perfect, everything's gonna be fine. Life is gonna be painless.

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我们会更快乐吗?他说:不,不会。但你不必担心,不必恐惧,因为生活自会找到出路。

We're gonna be happier. He's saying, no, it's not. It's not going to be. But you don't have to worry. You don't have to fear because life works out anyways.

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一旦接受这点,我们就能获得探索的自由,纯粹地存在,而不必把时间浪费在被灌输的虚假现实中。现在进行每周的日志练习,帮助探索这句箴言在本周带给你的启示。如常所言,若写日志不适合你或手边没有本子,完全没问题。你可以在心里思考答案,甚至暂停节目——只要给自己留出反思的空间就好。让我们从第一个问题开始。

And once we accept that, we find the freedom to be exploratory and to just exist without wasting all our time on this false reality that we've been sold. It's time for our weekly journal practice to help explore what this mantra is bringing up for you today, tomorrow, for the rest of the week. And like I always say, if journaling isn't your thing or you don't have one nearby, then it's totally okay. You can literally just think about your answers in your head, maybe pause the episode, and, yeah, if that's what works for you, that's amazing as long as you give yourself the space to reflect in your own time. Let's get into these prompts starting with this first one.

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能否回忆起因追求完美而阻碍你开始重要事情的经历?我肯定有。接下来:在哪些方面你最强烈地渴望表现完美?为什么?当想到让别人看到缺点时,你会产生什么恐惧?最后:若不再等待'准备就绪'或'变得完美'就采取行动,未来的你会如何突破自我?

Can you recall a time when trying to be perfect held you back from starting something you cared about? I definitely can. Next, where in your life do you feel the strongest urge to appear perfect and why? What fears come up for you when you think about letting others see your flaws? And finally, how would future you open up if you stopped waiting to be ready or to be perfect before taking action?

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我太喜欢这些日记提示了。它们绝对值得我自我反思,但也是时候让你的心灵在这些问题和这句箴言的陪伴下稍作休息。稍后你会听到一段音乐,我想邀请你借此机会,以最适合你的方式梳理本周的感悟。无需压力。

I love these journal prompts. They're definitely ones I'm gonna be reflecting on myself, but it's also time to just give your mind a moment to rest with those questions in mind, with this mantra in mind. In just a second, you'll hear a music track. I wanna invite you to take this opportunity to process this week's reflections in whatever way feels right to you. No pressure.

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无需期待。如果这些内容与你无法产生共鸣,完全没关系。我知道这不适合所有人。你可以直接快进约三十秒,但当你静下心来时,请记住我们的箴言:我允许自己不完美。

No expectations. And if this isn't something you connect with, that's totally okay. I know it's not for everyone. Feel free just to skip ahead around thirty seconds, but as you settle in, keep our mantra in mind. I allow myself to be imperfect.

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随着音乐响起,让这句箴言塑造你的思绪,花点时间去感受它为你带来的一切。真美好。现在你已有了片刻重置与沉淀,是时候将这份能量转化为行动,迎接我们的每周挑战了。期待听到你的进展,欢迎随时通过蒙特开放思维平台联系我。每个月你们都知道,我会回复你们的问题、经历和困境——无论是关于这个挑战还是其他任何心事。

As the music plays, just let this mantra shape your thoughts and just take time to connect with whatever it is bringing up for you. Beautiful. Now that you've had a moment to reset and ground yourself, it is time to take that energy and bring it into action with our weekly challenge and love to hear how it's going. Feel free to reach out to me at Monter Open Mind. And each month, you guys know I respond to your questions, your experiences, your dilemmas, maybe to do with this challenge and anything else you have on your mind.

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我将在每月独家发布于开放思维Plus的特辑中做这件事。本周的挑战是:庆祝你的缺陷。每天结束时,列举一个你今天展现的不完美之处——可能是个怪癖、你认为的失误、让你感到尴尬的事,然后有意识地将它重新定义为‘你身而为人的证明’。试着用‘哇,我这么做真有意思’的视角看待它。

I'll be doing that in a special bonus episode available exclusively on Open Mind Plus, which we do every single month. This week, your challenges, I want you to celebrate the flaws. At the end of each day, name one imperfect thing about yourself that showed up today. Maybe a quirk, something you think of as a slip up, something that you felt embarrassed by, and just consciously reframe it as proof of your humanity. Think about it like, wow, that's so interesting that I did that.

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‘我这么做多么独特’,‘这是我独有的特质’。在不完美中感受真实与个性带来的力量。好啦,在结束本周节目前,我想分享关于这句‘我允许自己不完美’箴言的最后几点思考。

That's so unique that I did that. That's so special about me that no one else has. Ground yourself in how imperfection also brings about authenticity and individuality. Alrighty. As we wrap up this week's episode, I wanted to share a few final thoughts about this mantra, I allow myself to be imperfect.

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当你接纳不完美,允许自己以真实面目存在时,生活会变得轻松许多。你不再需要承受表现完美的压力,也不必通过完美行为取悦他人。你只需存在——这对人类而言是多么美妙的体验。不完美无需修正,

Again, once you embrace imperfection and just let yourself show up as you are, life becomes a lot easier. There's a lot less pressure to perform. There's a lot less pressure to somehow make other people happy through your perfection or your behavior. You just get to be, and that's such a wonderful thing to experience as a human. Being imperfect, it's not something to fix.

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它本质上就是你存在、表达和真实展现自我的组成部分。当我们停止追求完美,才能体验生活的本来面目。我认为这很美,是一份礼物,也是我真心希望你们每个人都能拥有的状态。愿这句箴言能让你在今天更深刻地领悟这一点。感谢收听《箴言》——由Pave Studios制作的开放思维独家原创节目。

It's literally part of being who you are and expressing yourself and just showing up authentically. When we stop chasing flawlessness, we allow ourselves to experience life as it really is. And I think that's beautiful, and that's a gift, and that's something that I want for every single one of you. So I really do hope this mantra has solidified that appreciation and that understanding for you today. Thank you for joining Mantra, an exclusive Open Mind original powered by Pave Studios.

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在Open Mind,我们珍视您的支持。请在社交媒体上分享您的想法,并记得为Mantra评分、评论和关注,帮助更多人发现这个节目。想要无广告收听及提前获取由我Gemma Spegg主持的Mantra节目,我们诚邀您订阅Apple Podcasts上的Open Mind Plus。下周一我将与您分享另一则富有洞见与自省的箴言。在此之前,请继续坚持自我成长之路。

At Open Mind, we value your support. So share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review, and follow Mantra to help others discover the show. For ad free listening and early access to Mantra with me, Gemma Spegg, we invite you to subscribe to Open Mind Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'll share another insightful and introspective mantra with you next Monday. Until then, keep showing up for yourself and your journey.

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我是Gemma Spegg,下周见。Mantra由我Gemma Spegg主持,是Pave Studios制作的Open Mind原创节目。本期节目由出色的Mantra团队——Max Cutler、Ron Shapiro、Stacey Warrankar、Sarah Camp和Paul Lieberskin共同打造。

I'm Gemma Spegg. See you next week. Mantra is hosted by me, Gemma Spegg. It is an open mind original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the incredible Mantra team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Stacey Warrankar, Sarah Camp, and Paul Lieberskin.

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感谢您的收听。

Thank you for listening.

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