本·谢泼德：50岁的我比38岁时更强壮

大家好，欢迎回到《男性健康》播客。今天坐在我对面的是一位英国广播界的绝对中坚人物，一个近三十年来始终活跃在我们荧幕上的熟悉面孔。本·谢泼德，你好吗，

Hello, and welcome back to the Men's Health podcast. Sitting opposite me today is an absolute stalwart of British broadcasting, a man who has been a fixture on our screens for almost thirty years. Ben Shepherd, how are you,

老兄？我很好，谢谢。

man? I'm good, thank you.

你看起来对这个数字很震惊。

You look shocked at the number there.

这确实像是个惊人的数字。我不确定我有那么老。每次有人这么说，三十年——我还记得自己三十岁时想着，天哪，我真的老了。而你说我在电视行业工作了大约三十年，这实在让人心惊。

That does seem like an awful lot. I'm not sure I'm quite that old. Every time someone says that, thirty year I can remember turning 30 and thinking, gosh, I'm really old. The fact that I've been working in telly, or you're telling me for about thirty years is truly terrifying.

好吧，记不清了——这话听起来可能很夸张——我记不起没有你的生活是什么样子了。

Well, can't remember, this is gonna sound very dramatic, I can't remember life without you.

这话既让人毛骨悚然又阴森，倒也算是一种赞誉。不过你比我年轻些对吧？你88岁？

That sounds equally chilling and sinister as it is an accolade. You're a bit younger than me though, right? You're 88?

88岁，是的。

88, yes.

88年出生，所以我比你大十四岁。你在九十年代中期到晚期确实有过几年青春时光，但那时变化已经开始发生，很抱歉我还在谈论这个。

88, so I'm fourteen years older than you. So you did have a few years, early mid sort of nineties, late nineties, but that's when it started happening and I'm sorry to stay on still there.

这次拍摄对你来说其实算是某种意义上的回归，对吧？因为十三年前你就曾登上过《男士健康》杂志的光面封面。是的。而就在上周，你又为我们再次拍摄。我已经看过那些照片了。

This is actually a little bit of a welcome back for you, isn't it? Because you shot you were on the glossy cover of Men's Health magazine thirteen years ago. Yeah. And you recently, just the other week, shot again for us. I've seen the pictures.

你看过了吗？是的。你状态很棒。但更重要的是，你现在感觉如何？

Have you? Yes. You look great. But Thank more importantly, how do you feel now?

天啊，这个问题很大。我感觉如何？我非常享受这次回归的经历。从青少年时期到二十多岁、三十多岁，我一直是《男士健康》的忠实读者，它就像是我的健身圣经。

Gosh, that's a big question. How do I feel? I love the experience of getting back. I've always been a huge follower of men's health through my teenage years, my 20s, my 30s. It's been a bit of a fitness bible for me.

这本杂志始终是我的首选读物。2012年第一次登上杂志时感觉非常新奇有趣，那是我从未有过的体验。你可能会被杂志里的模特造型和健身计划所激励，但真正置身其中、成为封面人物时，那种兴奋感难以言喻。去年十二月临近五十岁生日时，我在线上发起'Fit A 50'挑战，纯粹是出于好奇——我想知道自己在五十岁前能把体能提升到什么程度。

It was always my go to publication. Being in the magazine first time round back in 2012 was really fascinating, great fun. I'd never done anything like that before. You sort of, you can be inspired by sort of the models that you have and the fitness plans that you put into men's health, but actually to be in the magazine, to be on the magazine was really exciting. And then I was approaching my fiftieth birthday last December and I was doing this Fit A 50 campaign online, which was just something that came about because I was really intrigued to see how fit I could get by my fiftieth birthday.

进行几周后，我开始思考如何量化这个成果让人们可见，因为自我感知的体能状态与他人眼中的标准未必相同。我突然萌生想法：能不能复现我38岁时的状态？差不多就是十三年前的样子。后来机会真的出现了，这显然增加了压力——毕竟知道要拍照——但我是个目标导向的人，这种挑战反而正合我意。

And then sort of a couple of weeks into it, I trying to work out what's the, how can I measure this in a metric that people can see because understanding how fit you feel personally is different to somebody being able to see how fit I am necessarily? And I love the idea of sort of going, I wonder if we could recreate what I did at 38. So almost thirteen years ago to when I turned 50. And suddenly the opportunity came about to try and redo exactly that, which ramps up the pressure, obviously, because I know there's gonna be a photo, but I'm very goal orientated. So that worked for me as well.

整个经历简直太棒了。David的拍摄工作非常出色，整个团队充满正能量，这点我认为至关重要。这就像实现少年时的梦想——那个曾经痴迷《男士健康》的少年大概至今都不敢相信，因为那些健身楷模曾是如此遥不可及的存在。但现在意义远不止于此，是的，我感觉自己完成了一件相当了不起的事。

But the whole experience was, yeah, it was fantastic. The job for David was brilliant. The whole team that put it all together was so positive, which I think is hugely important as well. And it's one of those moments, was that there's sort of the teenager in me thinking that they're in men's health again, still probably wouldn't believe it because it was such an aspirational goal to see those people, to see the physics that people have created. But there's so much more to it now because yes, I feel like I achieved something pretty impressive.

我的体脂率下降了，肌肉线条更明显了，现在的我肯定比当年更强壮。但作为一个50岁、有两个青春期儿子、阅历更丰富的人，我现在明白，整个健身过程带给我的精神层面的收获，远比身体上的改变更为强大。虽然我热爱并享受健身带来的身体变化，但精神层面的提升才是我真正需要的。正是这种渴望，确保我能保持雄心、动力、精力和热情。是的，每天面带微笑醒来，知道自己充分利用每一刻，这一切都源于我的训练。

I've got my body fat down, I've got my lean muscle up, I'm probably stronger than I was back then certainly, but what I understand now as a 50 year old with two teenage sons and a lot more life under my belt is actually mentally what the whole process gives me is far more powerful than physically. The physical side of it, I love and I enjoy and I thrive on, but the mental side of it is the thing that I need. That's the thirst that I have to make sure I can keep across the ambition, the motivation, the energy, the enthusiasm. Yeah. Waking up with a smile on my face, knowing that I'm making the most of every moment, that comes about because I train.

没错，这给了你生活的活力。跟我聊聊你的健身历程吧，最初是什么促使你将健身房或健身融入生活的？

Yeah. Gives you the vitality, right, to to live your life. Talk me through your training autobiography. What kind of first encouraged you to make the gym or make fitness part of your life?

我在东伦敦郊区长大，埃平镇。那时我参加了很多团队运动，运动就是我的一切。我为足球而活，为橄榄球而活，为田径而活。但板球打得很糟——典型的注意力缺陷多动症孩子，完全没有耐心。

So I grew up on the edge of East London, you know, where I grew up in Epping and I played a lot of team sport. Team sport, everything for me was sport. Like I lived for it. I lived for football, I lived for rugby, I lived for athletics. I was rubbish at cricket because I have no attention ADHD kid, classic example, I had no patience.

我钟爱的运动体验必须充满高能量、竞争性、侵略性，有时甚至要带点合法范围内的暴力，还要有团队协作和相互依赖。大约12岁时，学校有位叫哈里曼的老师，虽然不教我任何课程，但如果你想使用综合健身器，他会负责指导。我记得他总是肌肉发达，系着举重腰带训练——这让我非常着迷，现在才明白那是为了保护腰部。他带我们使用当时相当简陋的综合健身器，和现在的设备完全不能比。

My sport and my experience had to be high energy, competitive, aggressive, violent at times if possible, in a legal way, but with teams, people to rely on, people to draw on and all that sort of stuff. And then we had a teacher at school about, we probably would have been about 12 or 30, we had a multi gym at school, and there was a teacher called Mr Harriman, who I didn't actually teach me for anything, but he, if you wanted to use the multi gym, Mr Harriman would give you the training, and I remember this guy walking around school and he was always pretty stacked, and always had a weight belt, which I was intrigued by that he'd sort of put on to training. Obviously I get now the support about his lower back and all that sort of stuff. And he used to take us through the multi gym that we had. It was pretty basic compared to what's going on now.

那是在80年代中期。正是在那里，我发现了对健身和力量训练的乐趣。后来在伍德福德橄榄球队时有所发展，虽然力量训练课程不多。我的体能主要来自功能性训练：俯卧撑、仰卧起坐、开合跳、波比跳，以及在足球场或橄榄球场上的奔跑。直到大学时期，我才真正理解健身和力量训练的重要性。

This was in the sort of the mid eighties, late 80s. And that's where my joy of actually fitness and strength training came about, developed into the rugby team that I played with a lot in Woodford. We'd have some strength and condition sessions, but not a lot. So a lot of my fitness came from functional strength, which was press ups, sit ups, star jumps, you know, burpees and things, and running around a football field or rugby field. And I think it developed further in terms of understanding the importance of fitness and strength at university.

那时我才真正开始走进健身房，并享受这个过程。

That's when I really started jumping into the gym as well and enjoying that process.

你刚开始健身时是什么情形？这些年来你的训练方式和营养摄入又是如何演变的？

What did it look like for you once you got there and how has your training in nutrition evolved over the years since then?

嗯，我是说，那时候营养问题在我和朋友们之间确实从未被提及。真正让我理解良好营养重要性的时刻，是第一次与杰米·索耶合作拍摄《男士健康》杂志时的训练。在那之前我做了大量训练，喜欢去健身房，但实际上从未认真对待过饮食问题。过去我刻苦训练的原因之一——无论是当时还在打很多橄榄球、踢大量足球，或是坚持去健身房——就是为了能随心所欲地吃喝。我很多朋友开始努力工作后，训练减少或运动量下降，体重就增加了。你知道，人到了二十五六岁、三十出头时总会这样。而我心里始终有个念头：我不想妥协，我要吃想吃的，喝想喝的。

Well, I mean, certainly nutrition back then was never even spoken about amongst me and my friends for sure. And the importance of good nutrition is that the first time I really understood the value of that was training with Jamie Sawyer for the first Men's Health shoot. I did a lot of training up till then and I liked going into the gym but actually never really took my nutrition seriously. Used to, one of the reasons I used to train hard, whether this was still playing rugby, which I was doing a lot of, still playing a lot of football, or still going to the gym, one of the reasons was so I could just eat and drink whatever I wanted. I had a lot of my friends had started working hard, were training less or not playing as much sport and then they were putting on weight and you know, as you do through your late 20s, early 30s and there was always that bit in the back of my mind is I don't want to have to compromise, I want to be able to eat what I want to eat, I want to be able to drink what I want to drink.

好吧，那我就继续运动保持消耗卡路里。活跃的生活方式让我乐在其中——我热爱运动，更享受这种无拘无束的状态。直到跟随杰米训练后才明白：若想改变体型获得成效，就必须对摄入的食物更讲究些。那时我已38岁，新陈代谢还行，但孩子让我忙得不可开交。我大致遵循了杰米的计划，但执行得并不严格。

Okay, I'm gonna just keep playing sport and keep doing that because that helps me burn the calories that I'm consuming. Active lifestyle, And I loved it. I mean, I love both, but I loved being able to go, it doesn't matter, I can keep doing those things. And then when I started training with Jamie, understanding if you want results or if you want to physically change your body, you've got to treat it a little bit more respectfully just in terms of what you're consuming and what you're putting in. And even that time it was, you know, was 38 at the time, so life, my metabolism was a bit better, was very busy with kids and I followed Jamie's plan and bits and pieces, but wasn't particularly strict about it.

但效果却非常显著。虽然我一直算精瘦，但突然就有了可见的六块腹肌，肌肉更紧实，力量也明显增强。记得有次起床经过镜子，不经意瞥见自己身体的变化，那一刻仿佛有电流穿过——仅仅通过更有条理地安排饮食，就能肉眼可见地改变体型，这实在太鼓舞人心了。

But the results that we got were significant, you know, I'd always been relatively lean, but suddenly to have sort of visible six packs, suddenly to have more lean muscle to be stronger, physically stronger. I can remember getting out of bed and walking past the mirror and suddenly catching a shot of my body. And there's like a moment, it's like, crackly, you know, just by being a little bit more organised about what I'm consuming, I can physically see that change that that's made and that's really inspiring.

确实。

Yes.

我很享受这种状态。如今营养摄入已成为我的核心驱动力和关注重点。这次我并没有感到被剥夺感——首轮训练时其实更严格，食谱范围很窄，因为当时只知道鸡肉是优质蛋白质来源，杰米还让我喝大量蛋白粉。晚餐就是烤蔬菜配鸡肉，后来...

I can enjoy that. And nutrition now is something that is a real driver for me and something that was a real focus. I don't feel like this time round I've gone without as well. I think first time round I was a bit stricter actually, just in terms of the range of things I would eat, because I just knew that chicken was good and as a protein source was great, protein shakes, Jamie would make me take loads of protein shakes and bits and pieces, but I didn't really have a lot. So I'd do grilled vegetables in the evening of chicken and it gets

有点单调对吧？经典操作。那时候我们懂的也不多。

a little bit boring. Classic. Yeah. It's like we didn't know better there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

当时确实认知有限。

We didn't know better.

就点烤鸡和蔬菜吧。

Just go grilled chicken and vegetables.

你呢？

And you

上次坚持了六周挑战后就这么做，但真的会变得很乏味。我热爱美食，享受各种风味。这次基于我对饮食的认知——明白哪些该吃、哪些该控制——加上给自己更长时间调整，从未感到匮乏或饥饿，总是觉得满足。

do that, and it was six weeks challenge last time. And you do that, and that gets really dull. Like, I love food, I really enjoy flavours and tastes. My experience and my understanding of actually what I can eat and the range of things you can eat and the things that maybe are worth trying to avoid or cut back on or be a bit more disciplined about, meant that this time around, and I gave myself more time, this time around, I never felt like I was going without, I never felt hungry. I always felt like I was satiated.

我始终觉得生活充满乐趣，同时收获了成效。这次的训练也更专注：首次转型时跟随Jamie Sawyer，这次与合作十年的Steve Coleman训练。他卓越的热情、专业知识和层出不穷的点子，总能让我保持投入——我虽自律但易厌倦，需要持续的新鲜感。

I always felt like I was still enjoying life and everything, but I was getting those results as well. And I think my training has been a lot more focused because I've always worked with PTs, Jamie Sawyer was my trainer first time around. I worked with brilliant Steve Coleman this time around, I've trained with Steve for, I don't know, maybe ten years now actually, so just after Jamie and I moved, I started training with Steve and he's brilliant, his enthusiasm and his expertise and his knowledge and his wealth of sort of ideas, because he equally knows what I need, just in terms of keeping me engaged and interested and busy. I'm very easy, like I'm very disciplined when it goes, well, I'm going to do it, regardless of how tired I am, but I can get quite bored as well. So I need, constantly feel like that has evolved.

主持《忍者勇士》彻底改变了我的训练理念。看到Kamie、Lee和Rochelle这些运动员——体型精干、动作敏捷兼具力量与耐力——我开始向往那种功能性体态：体操般的协调性、灵活性。女性选手表现尤其令人惊叹，

One of the things that really changed how I train was hosting Ninja Warrior. So when we started hosting Ninja Warrior, Kamie and Lee and Rochelle, suddenly what I saw were these incredible athletes that were in great shape, but their bodies moved in such a functional way that they weren't enormous, weren't massively stacked, they were agile, they were strong, they were athletic, they had endurance. And I started thinking about that actually, that's what I would love to be able to do. I'd love to have that agility, that strength, that that real mix of what it is you can do, very gymnastic, coordinated, flexible, all of them were so inspiring. The girls were incredible at it.

男性选手也超棒。我们开始更多采用自重训练，我完全着迷了。倒立等动作带来了全新的挑战与专注体验，这种颠覆传统的方式让过程充满激情。

The boys were just awesome. And I start and we started training in a lot more sort of calisthenics style of training, which I absolutely loved. It giving me everything that I wanted in terms of challenge and and focus. So I started doing a lot of handstands, started doing lots of bits and pieces like that. And as a process to go through was really exciting because training in a completely different way to what I trained before.

现在的训练是多种经验的融合：仍需要大量有氧运动（这是我的强项），但也热爱力量训练。功能性训练对50岁且有腰膝问题的我至关重要——它能让我继续享受高尔夫，所以躯干旋转练习尤为关键。

And I think the mixture of training that we do now is a sort of a hybrid of a lot of that sort of experience. I still need a lot of cardio because I thrive on cardio. But I love the strength piece And I really, really like the functionality. Functional training thing for me is as a 50 year old with back and knee issues, wanting to be able to carry on playing as much golf as I possibly can. So rotation is really important.

我希望自己能跟上19岁和18岁儿子们的步伐，他们年轻、健康又强壮。这让我更加意识到要尽可能长久地保持活力。

I wanted to be able to keep up with my 19 year old and 18 year old sons who are young and fit and strong. That's become something that I'm much more aware of in terms of staying in the game as long as possible.

是的，我们之前聊过这个，应该是在开拍前。有趣的是健身房文化——特别是其历史渊源——很大程度上是从健美运动视角发展而来的，对吧？这很棒。比如人们吃鸡胸肉和米饭，就因为健美运动员这么做。但这其实是非常特定的追求方向。

Yeah, we spoke about this, I think it was before we started rolling, but it's interesting how a lot of, particularly in the gym, you know, the history, the pedigree of that has largely come through the lens of bodybuilding right outside of sports. It's so great. So people did do, you know, chicken and rice is what because that's what bodybuilders do. But that's a very specific pursuit. Right?

更酷的是通过互联网、社交媒体和《忍者勇士》这类节目，突然看到各种身体能力的展示方式，人们意识到：原来锻炼方式可以如此多样。

And it's been so cool to see, you know, through the Internet, through social media, through shows like Ninja Warriors, see all these suddenly, all these different displays of physicality and people going, oh, there's, you know, there's there's there's more than one way to sort of shake this tree.

没错。就像忍者运动展现的那样——现在全国涌现的忍者训练场就是证明。我们曾在周六晚上和上千名孩子、大人一起，为那些展示健康体魄、敏捷身手的选手欢呼。主持节目时充满能量，看到孩子们在暑期拍摄结束后模仿那些动作，才知道跑酷这类运动传递的理念：健身不必枯燥乏味。

Yeah. I it doesn't have to be like, I think one of the things as well that ninja really did, and you can tell by the proliferation of ninja parks around the country now Mhmm. How that really tapped into something. We were really celebrating fitness on a Saturday night with a thousand kids and grown ups in the audience cheering and shouting people who just demonstrating what being fit and healthy and physical and strong and agile and nimble looks like in a really aspirational way. And then to see the kid you'd we'd do the show and we'd have great fun hosting the show, so full of energy and life.

看着孩子们攀爬跳跃，重现节目中的场景，你就会明白：健身不只有举重，还可以是跑上高墙。比如节目最后那道弧形墙，相当于双层巴士的高度，四米多。初见觉得不可能，掌握技巧后其实很有趣。

And then you'd see the kids walk out afterwards, because we always filmed it in the summer holidays, and all the kids would be climbing on stuff and jumping on stuff, and they would recreate what they'd seen, knowing that that whole world of parkour, knowing that that sort of that whole world of kind of going, hold on, fitness and training doesn't have to be dull and boring, you don't just have to lift really heavy stuff. It's not just about that, it can be about running up a wall. I mean, end, the warped wall at the end, everyone's fascinated by the warped wall, it's the size of two double decker, running up the side of a double decker bus, you're four metres to the top of it. You know, as a feat, it looks seriously impressive. Once you've worked out how to do it, it's actually not, but it's really great fun.

每个参赛者无论成功与否都笑容满面。这种对健身的纯粹快乐具有感染力，彻底改变了我对健身的认知——不必每次练到精疲力尽，完全可以和伙伴们嬉笑玩闹着锻炼。这也是我想让儿子们体验的。

And every single person that took on that course came off with a massive smile on their face, whether they fell off or whether they sort of reached the top of the wall and kept going. And that is so contagious. You know, it really is watching that sort of joy and celebration of fitness and health was, that was a real sort of moment for me in my fitness journey, think that really took me away from just thinking, I've just got to kill myself from the gym every single time I go there. Actually, no, you don't, you're gonna have a really good laugh with a load of your mates running around, jumping off stuff, whatever it looks like. With my boys, that was an important thing as well because I wanted them to enjoy the process.

我不希望他们觉得健身是负担。太多人把去健身房当成任务。但如果能找到让你期待的运动方式，周围有逗你笑、激励你、支持你的人，还有什么理由不爱上它呢？

I didn't want them to feel obliged to do it. I didn't want them to feel like so many people kind of go, Oh, I've got to go to the gym. I've got to do this. Know, weighs on you. But if you can find a way of exercising where you look forward to that experience and you wanna be there, and there's people around you that are gonna make you laugh, and there's people around you who are gonna inspire you, and there's people around you that are sort of gonna really encourage you, then what's not to love?

是的，是的。我真心认为，对于我们国家乃至人类健康问题的任何构想，答案都不应该是简单地告诉人们要自力更生、去健身房锻炼。而是应该创造更多机会的接触面，让每个人都能找到表达自我身体潜能的方式——那种你们都会热爱的方式。

Yeah. Yeah. I genuinely think that is the answer to any sort of idea we might have about the ailing health of our nation or even our species is not to try and, you know, just tell people to pull themselves up with a bootstrap, up, get in the gym. It's let's create this greater surface area of opportunity for you to find a way to express your own physicality Yeah. That you all love.

而且我认为——虽然现在还处于早期阶段——重要的是要意识到，正如我所说，健身房不再专属于健美者的观念才刚刚兴起。我们正逐渐摆脱这种局限，《忍者勇士》等节目的爆红故事正在自我书写，因为本·谢泼德也分享过这个节目如何激励了他。没错，这绝对是...

And I think when, again and I it's still early days, I think, to to it's important to realize. It's still early days from, as I say, the gym not strictly being somewhere just for bodybuilders. It's like we're just sort of coming out the back end of that, and things like Ninja Warrior mean, the breakout stories for this are absolutely writing themselves right now because Ben Shepherd shares how Ninja Warrior inspired him too. Yeah. Like, it's so For sure.

这些触点越多，我们的健康状况就会越好。因为正如你所说，关键不是命令人们去享受运动，而是帮助他们找到适合自己的、令人愉悦的运动方式。

And those things and those touching points, I think the more of them we have, the more we'll see our health improve. Because as you say, it's not telling people to enjoy it, it's telling people to find a way, a method that is enjoyable.

总会有

There is something

适合每个人的方式。

for everybody.

对。总会有某种运动、某个空间让人感到安全舒适，可以开始锻炼之旅——虽然很多人觉得自己从未找到过。社交媒体无疑对我和儿子们产生了巨大影响，它让我们能分享健身故事、训练计划和创意。比如我在《男士健康》网站上看到个训练方案，觉得有趣就可以立即尝试，这种可及性彻底改变了我的生活。我大儿子16岁开始健身，自律得令人惊叹——

Yes. There will be something and lots of people feel like I've never found that thing, that exercise, that space where I feel safe and comfortable and content and I can go and start that journey. There is something out there and one of the things that has undoubtedly had a huge impact on my boys and me now as well is the advent of social media and being able to share fitness and fitness stories and exercises and ideas online, you know, if I take, so if I'm reading Mens Health Online, you know, and I see a training plan, and I think, oh, that looks interesting, I might just give that a go and I can just click through and then suddenly I'm in the gym doing that. And that, the accessibility of that for me has been a game changer. My eldest son started training in the gym at about 16 and I used to sort of watch him and see him and he was so disciplined about it.

他备战中考时表现优异。我儿子山姆曾经又高又瘦，现在变得非常壮实。他的健身知识全来自TikTok，上面有几个他特别关注的博主。

He was brilliant during his GCSEs. He was very tall and lean, my son Sam. Now he's really stocky and he's really well built and he loves it. But he taught himself via TikTok. There was a couple of people he liked following on TikTok.

他们会发布他们的锻炼计划和他的计划，而我以前的做法总是随便进去练练，有点马虎，进去尝试一下享受过程。他的方式则更有条理。他是个数学家，在大学攻读数学专业，非常注重数字统计，想了解每个细节。所以如果我想锻炼某块肌肉，想增强这里的力气，我需要做哪些练习？现在和他一起训练，感觉就像有了个儿子当私人教练，这让我很着迷，因为他才19岁，在如何发展和如何训练方面，他的知识和经验比我丰富得多。

They would post their exercises and his, my approach to it was always just go in and do whatever and it was a bit slapdash and get in there and try it and enjoy it. His was much more methodical. He's a mathematician, he's studying maths at university, he's very sort of number stats driven and wanted to understand the detail. So if I want to develop that muscle, I want to develop my strength here, what are the exercises that I have to do? I feel like if I train with him now, I've got a personal trainer as a son, it's fascinating to me because he's only 19, he's got far more knowledge and experience just in sort of academically with regards to how to develop and how to work than I do.

我虽然年纪更大，在健身房的经验更多，但很多时间都被浪费了。我的意思不是说完全浪费，而是效率低下。我们最宝贵的资源是时间，对吧？这是我们唯一拥有的，也是最珍贵的东西。所以现在我明白了让时间发挥最大价值的重要性。

I've got a lot more age on my side and experience of being in gyms, but so much of that was wasted. I mean, not wasted because I never wasted it, but so much of it was inefficient. Our most precious resource is time, right? It's the only thing, it's the most valuable thing we have. So in these days, I understand the importance of making my time the most valuable it can be.

如果我在健身房有一个小时，我要确保这一个小时是我能利用得最好的，因为我还有其他事情要做，要陪家人，要工作，各种事情让我分身乏术。而他在很短的时间内就让他的训练变得非常高效。这很有趣，因为现在我会和他一起训练，我练的时间比他长得多。他会说，爸，你

So if I've got an hour to spend in the gym, I want to make sure that that hour is the best hour I can spend, because I need, still want to be able to do the other stuff, spend some time with family, I'm at work or tonnes of you being pulled in different directions. What he's managed to do in a really short space of time is make his training really, really effective and efficient. So, you know, it's funny because I'll sit down with him now and I'll train and I train much longer than he does. He's like, dad, you

不用练这么久。

don't have to train this long.

你不必练那么久。不用做那么多。我们的目标是什么？我特别喜欢这一点，真的非常喜欢。

You don't have to go on for that. You don't have to do so many stuff. What are we trying to do? And I love that. I absolutely love it.

和他在一起真的很鼓舞人心，看到他对此的热情也是如此。

It's really, really inspiring being around him and seeing that enthusiasm he has for it as well.

你在2012年的采访中提到，当你第一次登上封面时，花时间在健身房增肌对你来说是享受的，但你缺少耐力方面的训练。我记得你说过类似的话，比如你需要那种训练来滋养灵魂。现在绝对是混合型运动员的时代，我知道你提到过你现在的训练方式更加多样化，这一点我稍后会详细问，但你是否找到了平衡点？你是否找到了平衡力量训练的方法，

You mentioned in your 2012 interview that when you when you first appeared on the cover that spending time in the gym, building muscle was enjoyable for you, but you were missing the sort of endurance aspect. I think you you said something in the lines of, you know, you needed that for your your soul. We're definitely in the age of sort of the hybrid athlete now, and I know that you've mentioned that your training approach now, which I wanna get into in a minute, is much more varied, but did you manage to sort of square that circle? Have you found a way to balance the strength building,

关于增肌和耐力训练？我现在无法做到而2012年能做到的事就是长跑。遗憾的是，我的背部椎间盘退化得有点严重。任何人到了50岁，如果给背部做核磁共振，椎间盘都会有问题，对吧？这只是正常的退化，但我也曾在硬地面上进行大量跑步训练。

the muscle building and endurance? So what I can't do now, which I could do back in 2012, is running, long running. My back is unfortunately there's a bit too much deterioration in the discs in my back. Anybody that gets to 50, if you have an MRI on your back, there'll be problems with your discs, right? It's just standard degradation, but also I did a lot of running and hard surfaces and stuff.

几年前我的背部确实出了些问题。脊椎外科医生对我说：听着，你必须停止跑马拉松。如果你还想在未来十五、二十、三十年后继续锻炼，就放弃长跑吧。而我曾如此热爱跑步。

And I had a sort of real problems with my back a few years back. And my back surgeon said, look, you're just going to have to stop doing marathons. You've just got to stop doing it. If you want to be able to still be doing physical exercise in fifteen, twenty, thirty years time, just take out the long distance. And I loved running.

跑步有种令我着迷的纯粹感——只需穿上跑鞋就能出发。是的，不需要任何装备，没有繁琐准备。

There was something very simple about running, which appealed to me, which was just put your trainers on and go. Yeah. Yeah. There's no paraphernalia. There's no stuff.

不需要任何准备活动。穿上跑鞋就出发。当你战胜了内心的犹豫，迈出最初几步后，那种奔跑的感觉简直妙不可言。那曾是我怀念的一种冥想方式。我现在仍能短跑，但长跑后会明显感到不适。

There's no jolly. Just get your trainers on and go. Once you've got past your own mind going, oh, yeah, whatever. Those first few steps you're off when you're running and it's amazing. And that was a form of meditation that I miss, I can do sort of, I can do, I can run still, but if I do a long run, then I'm going to feel it.

我妻子也注意到了变化。她说自从停止跑步后，我受伤频率大幅降低，背部疼痛也减轻很多。那么我找到了什么替代方案呢？动感单车已成为一种非常低冲击的耐力训练方式。

And my wife has noticed as well. She said the fact that you've stopped running, I mean, I'd injure myself far less. My back is in far less pain because I don't run so much. So trying to find, so what have I found instead? Spinning has become a really, really sort of low impact way of finding some sort of endurance.

我热爱任何能推动心肺极限的团体课程。虽然无法再进行两小时以上的长跑，但上周日参加的75分钟动感单车课程（差点要了我的命）却带来了惊人的成就感。那种全力以赴后的欣快感让我找到了应对身体限制的方法——比如我基本告别了足球，几年前踢球时膝盖严重受伤。

I love doing any sort of group class, whatever it might be, that pushes me physically from a cardio perspective. I don't get sort of the really long runs that I might do for a couple of hours or if not more. But actually what I find is that the sort of, I did a seventy five minute class on Sunday, actually a spin class on Sunday, which nearly killed me, but it was fantastic and the feeling afterwards was amazing because I really knew that, you know, that we'd really pushed ourselves, or I'd really pushed myself within that class, and he just come out, the euphoria about that. So I found ways of around the physical issues that I'm having, like I can't really play football. I can play football, but I wrecked my knee a few years ago playing football.

想到膝盖再次受伤的后果及漫长的康复过程，我必须寻找替代运动。最近尝试的滑雪就很棒，虽然对膝盖有风险，但我加强了膝关节周围肌肉群的力量训练。现在能和孩子尽情滑雪太美妙了。高尔夫也成了重要的运动项目。

And the idea of doing that to my knee again, and what that meant, the knock on for that was really, really tough, the rehab for it. So I've got to find alternative things, just been skiing. Skiing was brilliant and I'm conscious that actually the skiing can be bad for my knees, but I do a lot of work on the sort of the joint around my knee and my quads and my strength from my hamstrings as well, but I can ski really hard with my boys, which is fantastic. So I love that side of it. Golf has become a really big thing.

现在高尔夫对我来说，与其说是身体上的挑战（除了要小心呵护我的背部），不如说是精神上的挑战。因为高尔夫，任何人都会告诉你，是世界上最难掌握的运动，因为它完全取决于你的心态。你看，每个人都能学会如何挥杆，但成功与彻底失败之间的差距在高尔夫中只有毫米之遥，关键在于如何在心理上驾驭这种微妙。这正是我热爱高尔夫的地方——那种精神博弈，以及四五个小时户外运动的体能挑战。抛开糟糕的击球不谈，和朋友们一起享受时光很棒。这让我有机会屏蔽脑海中的杂音，专注于这项运动所需的技巧。所以我找到了能让我逃避现实的耐力运动。

Now golf isn't necessarily the physical challenge other than making sure I nurture my back, but the mental challenge that I get from golf, because golf would, anyone will tell you, golf's the hardest game in the world to play because it's all in your head. You know, everybody can work out how to swing a golf club and there's so, you know But the difference between success and absolute abject failure is millimetres in golf and mentally managing that. And that's what I love what thing I love about golf and the physical side the physical challenge, which is four and a half hours, five hours of being out, you know, one you out with your friends and having a good time if you take the bad golf out of the way. But, you know, that allows me time just to stop the noise in my head because I'm trying to focus on the skill involved that is that sport. So I found things that offer me an escape, endurance wise.

我确实怀念长跑，不过最近参加了抗癌健身赛，和训练基地'铸造厂'的几个伙伴一起玩得很开心——那是种小团体私教课，我超级喜欢。我脑子里还惦记着要尝试'高岩挑战'这类项目，喜欢那种结合跑步与体能训练的概念。总有一天会实现的，不过得好好规划，毕竟这类赛事名额太难抢了，对吧？

I do miss long runs, but I've done a couple of, I've did the battle cancer fitness games, which was really good fun with some guys from the Foundry where I train, which is small group personal training, which I absolutely love. And then I've got a high rocks in my head at some point, I've got to try and do something like that. I love the idea of working out what that's like for me to do, which is a mixture of the running and then the physical side of things. I'll get there at some point. I've got to be organised to do that though because trying to get a place in one of those things isn't Yeah.

我刚想说我们现在处境挺尴尬的。法律好像规定每个人都必须参加高岩挑战，但同时又几乎不可能...是啊。报名

I was about to say we're in a weird space now, aren't we? I think it's legally binding that everyone has to do a high rocks. But at the same time, it's nigh on impossible to Yeah. Get

对啊。怎么抢到名额？得跑去阿塞拜疆...没错。就为了

Yeah. How you get one? Yeah. You gotta go to Azerbaijan Yeah. To try

抢块高岩。难怪旅游业这么火爆。对了，你现在每周常规训练是怎么安排的？

and get a high rock. Well, tourism is booming, and this is why. Yeah. What does a normal week of training look like for you now?

我尽量每周上两节动感单车课或做些其他有氧运动，通常是骑自行车这类对背部冲击小的活动。还会去健身房两三次做力量训练——要么跟着我的私教史蒂夫，要么去'铸造厂'。就像我说的，我特别喜欢那里将心肺与力量训练结合的团体课，氛围超棒。任何能营造社群感、让会员被周围团队热情感染的健身房都很了不起，他们确实抓住了精髓。

So I try and train, probably try and, I'll do my best to try and do a couple of spin classes a week or some cardio other than that, which will be going out on a bicycle or something usually because it's low impact for my back. I will try and get into the gym two or three times as well. So do some strength sessions, whether that's training with Steve, my PT, whether that's going to the Foundry, which as I said is like, really enjoy because there's a great mix in the Foundry of the cardio with strength and you do it in a group and there's a great community. Any gym that, any offering or gym that offers some sort of community where people are engaged and enthused by their team around them and the people around them, I think is brilliant. They've really tapped in something very special there.

所以每周大概锻炼六次，有时少些有时更多。如果我儿子从大学回来，总会拉着我训练，这我也超爱。只要有人问'本吉来打板网球吗'或'踢场五人制足球吗'，就算带着伤，我的第一反应永远是'好'——从小就这样，总在找玩伴。

So I'll try and do, I think six sessions of something a week. Sometimes it's far less and sometimes it can be more. If my son's back from university, he'll often say, right, dad, come on, let's go and do some training or, and which I love as well. If anybody ever says to me, Benji fancy playing paddle, Benji fancy coming up a game of five aside, even if I'm nurturing me, Benji, wanna do my first default setting is yes. And that was always as a kid, I just was always looking for someone to play with.

你知道吗，我简直要把父母逼疯了。我有一个哥哥和一个姐姐，他们都比我大很多，成熟稳重。所以我总想找点事做，找个玩伴。只要有人叫我做什么，我总会答应，虽然常因工作或计划变动而无法兑现。但如果一周能参与五六件事，大概就能满足我内心的某种需求了。

Like, you know, drove my parents mad. I had a big brother and sister and they were two grown up and all that sort of stuff. So I was constantly looking to be busy and have have a playmate. So if people ask me to do stuff, I'll always say yes, can't often do them because of work and demands change. But if I can do five or six things a week, then I think that probably satiates a bit of what I feel like I need.

是啊。这真是保持健身动力的绝佳理由，对吧？永远不必拒绝别人。每当有人邀请时——虽然这话有点老套——我们越是探索自身极限，就越不会限制自己的体验。保持健康，当有人问'能骑车吗'时，你就不用担心'天啊我会不会出丑'。

Yeah. And that's such a great motivation for keeping the toe in the gym, right, isn't it? To never have to say no. When someone says, always think that, you know, the more we, you know, this is sort of a cliche line I like to roll out, the more we experience our limits, the less we limit our experiences because you can, you stay fit so that when someone says, can we pedal? You don't have to think like, god, am I gonna embarrass myself?

诸如此类。当然不是说这是必须的，我可不是在设定标准——比如人人都得能打六十分钟板网球，那太荒谬了。但不必质疑'我们能去徒步吗'的感觉很棒不是吗？

Blah blah blah. And it's not to say that's a necessity. I'm not obviously setting the bar, you know, everyone must be able to play sixty minutes of paddle. That would be ludicrous. But isn't it nice to not have to question, we're gonna go, you know, hike.

没错。我们可以去做这个做那个。保持体能，我认为这能为人生开启更多可能性，不是吗？

Yeah. We're gonna go and do this. And that that having that physical fitness, I think, just opens you up to so many more experience in life, isn't it?

我...我想是的。完全同意。我从未质疑过这点。而且不知为何，我从来不怕出丑。

I've I've I think yeah. I'd agree with that. Totally. It's never been something I've questioned. And I've never been, I think one of the things is, which I sort of don't know why necessarily, I've never been scared of embarrassing myself.

所以如果有人提议尝试新事物，即使从未做过，我也会说'好啊试试看，多有意思，最坏能怎样？'比如我们玩了很多年的足球突袭赛，我和顶尖球员同场竞技，虽然球技一般但从不觉得尴尬。而有朋友因为怕被看出水平差就不敢参与。不管什么运动，棒球也好——虽然从没挥过棒球棒——有人邀请我就去。

So if someone suggested we're gonna go and try and do something, I'd never done it before, I'd say, yeah, I'll give that a go, that'd be great for them, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Can, you know, so I sort of If you think about things like Soccer Raid, which we did, I did for many years and I absolutely loved, and I played alongside some incredible footballers and I played a lot of football and I love playing football, but I was never embarrassed about being bad at football. So I was always willing to go out there and give it a go. Whereas I'd had some friends that sort of did it and they were terrified of sort of being seen for not being great footballers, didn't bother me. So whatever it was, if someone said, come and have a game of baseball, yeah, I'll give that a go, never swung a baseball bat, whatever it is.

有人邀打壁球，现在又是板网球。太棒了，这游戏很有趣，我还说服了妻子参与——她平时很少运动但也乐在其中。正如你所说，能随时响应邀约而不必担心体力不支，这种可参与性很重要。

Someone says come and play squash. Someone says, now it's paddle. Brilliant, fun, fantastic game, persuading my wife to come and she's enjoying it as well. And she doesn't do a lot of physical stuff. The accessibility of those things, and like you say, being able to turn around and think, I don't need to worry about necessarily whether I'm going be fit enough to do this.

我只想着，我满脑子想的都是，这会很有趣。就是图个乐子。附带的好处是，你能有一小时或四十五分钟跑来跑去，稍微锻炼一下，这很棒。你在学习，提升一点技能什么的。但主要还是和人在一起，与人交流，享受乐趣。

I can just think about, all I ever think about is, this is just going to be fun. It's just going to be fun. And the fringe benefits of that are, you have an hour or forty five minutes of running around, doing a bit of exercise, which is great. You're learning, improving a little bit of skill and stuff. But mostly it's about being with the people, connecting with people and just having fun.

没错。这依然是我渴望且始终需要的。要是我妻子听到，准会发疯。我讨厌独处。我说得没错吧。

Yeah. And that's something I still yearn for and I still need all the time. If you speak to my wife, it drives her mad. I hate being on my own. I'm right.

她回家时会发现家里每台电视都开着，收音机响着，音乐放着，所以拜托你能不能关掉点什么？我就是不喜欢独处...我需要分散注意力。所以如果有人想玩点什么，我绝对奉陪。

If she'll come home and I'll have every TV on in the house, there'll be radios on, there'll be music on, so for God's sake, could you just turn something off? Just don't like being on my I need distraction. And so if there's someone that wants to play something, I'm all in.

是啊是啊。我喜欢这说法。除了显而易见的好处和能对每个玩乐机会说'好'之外，你的身体素养、体能和力量如何影响了生活的其他方面？我在想，比如，现在更关注你的心理层面...

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. How has your physical literacy, your fitness, your strength impacted your life outside of the obvious and outside of being able to to say yes to every opportunity to every opportunity for fun? Are there any other you know, I'm thinking here, like, I'm thinking of your mind more now.

对。你知道，心理上有什么益处？

Yeah. You know, what are the mental benefits?

毫无疑问，尤其在我做早间节目时。我从2000年到2010年做了约十年GMTV，然后2014到2024年又做了十年《早安英国》。特别是《早安英国》要凌晨三点半起床，还要处理很多其他事务。我从2012年左右开始录制《Tipping Point》。

Well, unquestionably, particularly when I was doing the breakfast show. So I did GMTV for about ten years from about 2000 to 2010. And then I did Good Morning Britain for about ten years from 2014 to 2024. And that was getting up at, well, Good Morning Britain particularly was getting up at half three in the morning, doing a lot of other things. And I'd film Tipping Point from about 2012.

这个节目做了大概十二到十四年，还有《忍者挑战赛》等其他工作。毫无疑问，我的体能状况与我在睡眠不足的高压环境中工作的能力是密切相关的。我深刻意识到：如果没机会锻炼或睡眠不足，工作表现就会大幅下滑。当我明白只要身体更高效，通过保持健康就能在少睡眠下维持状态——这成了督促我坚持锻炼的强大动力。

We've been doing that for sort of twelve, fourteen years, and Ninja and whatever else was going on. And there is no question that the correlation between my physical fitness and my ability to work and function in a sort of quite highly stressful environment on not much sleep were intrinsically linked. And I became very aware of that. If I hadn't had a chance to exercise and I wasn't getting enough sleep, my performance in the workplace suffered massively. So as soon as I understand that, you know, I can survive on less sleep if my body is more efficient and it deals with things by being fit and healthy, That became a really fantastic motivator for me to make sure that I did all those things.

首先，协调职业生活、家庭生活和身体健康意味着所有这些方面都能更好地运作。遗憾的是，我不确定自己是否真的找到了平衡，因为我非常热爱我的工作，也非常享受忙碌的状态。我深爱我的家人，但时间总是不够用。这让我不得不回到之前所说的——时间是我们最宝贵的资源。

So firstly, was that navigating professional life, family life and physical life meant that all those things worked better. Not sure I ever really got the balance, unfortunately, just because I really love my job and I really love being busy. I really love my family and there's never enough time. I've got to go back to what I saying about time being the most valuable resource that we have. And then

我

I

认为，当我的膝盖受伤时，锻炼的重要性、自我挑战的必要性以及享受所爱之事的意义变得尤为明显。当时我在踢足球，在一块看似无害的4G球场上，我踩住球转身时，鞋钉卡在了4G草皮里——那是块相当新的场地——膝盖扭伤时发出了'啪'的声响。我把腿抬起来觉得有点不对劲，心想这是什么情况？我反复尝试脚跟着地，但膝盖会突然脱力，却完全不觉得疼痛。于是我继续踢完了杯赛决赛。我们赢得了冠军，临近比赛结束时我才意识到：我的膝盖肯定出大问题了。

think that what became most stark in terms of the importance of being able to exercise and the importance to be able to push myself, the importance to be able to enjoy those things that I love was when I screwed my knee up. So I was playing football and I, and a really innocuous four gs pitch, put my foot down, turned round, but my studs got stuck in the four gs, it was quite a nude four gs, my knee twisted, something popped, I lifted my leg up and I thought that was a bit weird, what's that? And I kept trying to put my heel down and my knee would collapse, but it didn't hurt, didn't hurt at all. So I carried on playing cup final, carried on playing. We won the cup final, got to the, towards the end of the match and then I thought, this is really, something very wrong with my knee.

有时候不痛反而更糟糕，

It's almost a bit worse when it doesn't hurt,

对吧？是啊。那种感觉就像...

isn't it? Yeah. And you kind of go

然后那是

and what is

什么情况，特别诡异。如果我保持右脚脚尖着地，还能跑动。有次队友传球给我，我准备射门时突然想：如果用力踢，我的腿可能会飞出去。感觉膝盖完全不对劲。最后我把球传给了技术更好的队友，他完成了一记漂亮的射门。实际上这样更好，因为我自己根本不敢发力。

that, that's really weird. If I stayed on my toes, my right leg, if I stayed on my toes, I could run around and someone passed me the ball at one point and I went kick it and I thought, if I really kicked, I feel like my leg might fly off. It felt like there was something very wrong. So I passed it to someone else who's much better at football and they had a really good shot. It was good actually, was better because I wasn't backing myself.

挺有意思的，确实。

Interesting that, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

他们总说我们是受伤的高尔夫球手，因为你会放慢节奏。我当时没想退场，还打电话给我妻子——我们第二天要去度假——她说‘比赛怎么样？’我说‘很棒，我们赢了，儿子们在场，朋友们也在，都是我的老队友。’然后我问‘你晚点会去森斯伯里超市吗？’她说‘会啊’，我说‘能帮我带副拐杖吗？’

Well, they always say, we're the injured golfer because you sort of slow down, you I don't try to came off the pitch and I phoned my wife, we were going on holiday the next day and I said, oh, she said, how'd he go? Yeah, it was great, it was brilliant, we won, my sons were there, my mates were there, was my old boys team. And then I said, oh, are you going to Sainsbury's late? She said, yeah. I said, could could you bring me up some crutches?

她反应是‘什么？’我说‘没事，我打完比赛了应该没问题’。结果几周后才发现严重了，因为一直没空检查。后来找理疗师扫描，发现前交叉韧带、内侧副韧带全断了，膝盖骨骨折，半月板撕裂，整个膝盖简直...

She was like, what? I said, well, no, you know, I finished the game, so I think I'll be all right. Anyway, turns out I wasn't all right, but it was a couple of weeks later because I didn't have a chance to go and I went to see my physio, got a scan and I've done my ACL, my MCL, fractured the kneecap, I'd ripped the meniscus, like the whole thing was, it was an absolute

灾难性的。天啊，确实。

catastrophe. Wow, yeah.

伤得特别重。我的理疗师说‘难以置信他还能继续比赛’。当时真不觉得疼，是后来肿胀才开始痛。我休养了很久，必须做手术修复所有损伤，还取了腘绳肌来重建韧带——虽然现在很多职业运动员不修复前交叉韧带了，据说会影响速度。我表妹就没做手术。总之康复花了至少十八个月，比任何经历都痛苦。

It was properly and he, my physio mo was like, I can't believe he carried on playing as a It genuinely didn't hurt. It hurts now with the swelling and everything. So I was out for a very long time because I had to have the operation, I had to fix everything, harvested my hamstring like they do for ACLs. Although lots of professional athletes don't have ACLs fixed these days because I think it can slow you down, and my cousin in fact did hers, but she didn't. Anyway, the recovery from that was a good eighteen months, if not longer, and was more painful than anything I've ever been.

不能活动、不能打高尔夫、不能外出释放精力，真的让人焦躁难耐。那时我才突然明白，这不仅是爱好或保持健康的方式，更是精神必需品——那种专注训练的纪律性、规律性对我意义重大。所以现在我会格外谨慎，因为身体机能确实在衰退。但若再遭遇那种毁灭性伤害，漫长的康复期实在承受不起。

And not being able to do stuff, not being able to play golf, not being able to go out, not being able to burn off some of this energy that I had was really infuriating and difficult, got really, really difficult. And I think it's understanding that was suddenly when I realised, gosh, this isn't just something I love because it makes me look away or feel healthy or whatever, but this is something that I need mentally. That's the escape that I get from it. That's really, you know, the discipline of doing it, the consistency of doing it is I value enormously, which is why I will be much more cautious these days because I just, the idea of, and I understand that the rehab on that's gonna take longer, know, my body slowly wearing down, which is fine. But if you take those risks and do things that are gonna cause sort of catastrophic injury like it did, that's gonna take you out for a long time.

这个想法真的让我感到害怕。

And the idea of that really scares me.

是啊，是啊。我想我们之前讨论过这个，对吧？我们健身时做的很多事情其实都是随意的，不是吗？比如踢足球、举重之类的。

Yeah. Yeah. I I think we we were discussing this earlier, weren't we? This this idea of a lot of what we do as fitness are kind of just arbitrary things, aren't they? We play football or we lift weights and all those things.

人们很容易陷入‘这就是健身’的思维定式，却忘了——其实我是个词源学爱好者，我认为我们常常忽略了词语的本义。‘健身’字面意思就是适应环境的能力。如果你以健身之名所做的反而让你与环境格格不入，那这就不再是健身了，对吧？训练也是同理——我们到底在为什么而训练？

And it's so easy to get sucked into the idea that this is what fitness is and forget well, actually, I'm a big I'm a big sort of nerd for etymology, for words, and I think we lose track of what words mean. And, you know, fitness, literally the ability to fit into your environment. And if you if whatever you're doing in the name of fitness causes you problems to the point where you're now an ill fit for your own environment, well, it's not fitness anymore, is it? And I think training as well. What are we training for?

必须是为了生活啊。如果我们训练到要休养十八个月才能恢复，那就本末倒置了。

It's gotta be for life. Right? And if we're training in a manner that takes us out of the game for eighteen months, then yeah.

这确实是你生活中至关重要的一部分。我也经历过动力不足的阶段，比如疲惫或目标改变，环境突变打乱了节奏。但幸运的是，从未久到难以重返正轨——是的，总能找回状态。

And that is such an important part of your life. I mean, I've been through phases where I've not been as motivated with things, you know, you're tired or you're sort of, you know, what your drivers have changed, there's been a shift in circumstances, you get out of the rhythm of things. But fortunately, never for so long that I found it hard to get back into it. Yeah. Never for so long that I can't find my way back.

没错。即使荒废几周——首先我太太就会把我赶出门，因为我会变得焦躁不安（笑）。用现在流行的话说，这就是‘戒断反应’。她会说‘你需要去运动了’。

Yeah. Because it only takes even if I've had a couple of weeks, I've lost well, firstly, my wife will kick me out of the house if she if that happens because I start getting quite antsy and stir crazy and stuff and she abuses Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. It's stemming, isn't it, in certain parlance these days, that's absolutely what happens. And she's like, you need to go and do some exercise.

‘能不能去打高尔夫？去举铁？去跑步？能不能别在这儿转悠了？赶紧出去！’

Can you just go off and play golf? Can you just go down and do some weights? Can you just go for a run? Can you just get out of that? Can you just get out?

你需要去消耗掉一些精力。虽然时间从未过长，但我确实有时会感到动力不足。我认为，学会应对这些时期非常重要，同时回顾它们也是保持持续性的手段。

You need to go and burn off some of that. So it's never been too long, but I've been, can feel demotivated at times. And sort of, I think, you know, navigating those periods is something that's really important and thinking back to them as well as a means of staying consistent.

是的。这正是我想问你的，在你的训练生涯中是否遇到过动力低谷，你是如何克服的？你提到从未持续太久，但是否有过那种时刻——我想每位听众，无论是否愿意承认，都能感同身受——那种‘我为什么要做这个？’的困惑。我们都知道原因，但你是如何走出来的？

Yeah. Well, that's something I wanted to ask you is that have you had any motivational lulls, like, your in your training career and how did you overcome them? You've mentioned that you never had any for particularly long, but have there ever been any times where you kind of really thought I think everyone listening, whether they want to admit it or not, can relate to this, that feeling of like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I doing this? And how did you then sort of, because I think we all know why we're doing it.

对。你是如何从那种状态中挣脱出来的？

Yeah. How did you come out the other end of that?

其实我从未产生过‘为什么做这个’的疑问，因为一旦投入我就明白了，无需质疑。但我确实经历过‘懒得动弹’的阶段。

Now, I don't think I ever got the, why am I doing this? Because once I was in it, I got it. Like, didn't need to question it. I definitely have been through I Can't Be Bothered. Yeah.

大学时我们常看李·埃文斯的一个经典喜剧片段，他演得妙极了——关于那种对什么都提不起劲的状态。‘你能代劳吗？因为我实在懒得动。’我确实经历过这样的时期：工作繁忙、孩子年幼、杂事缠身，那时我没有优先考虑训练这部分生活。很多人对我说‘我没时间’，而我的回答永远是：你每天都有时间，关键在于让它变得和其他事务同等重要。

It's a brilliant Lee Evans sketch we used to watch at university on this video. He just goes, it's hilarious about not being you just can't be bothered from doing anything. Can you read it for all that? Because I can't be bothered. And I I kinda definitely went through phases like that where work was really busy, the kids were pretty young, we had stuff going on and you just, I wasn't prioritising that part of my life and it's very easy to sort of go, lots of people say to me, I just don't have time to do it and all I ever say is there will be time in your day, you just need to make it as important to you as the other stuff that you're doing.

哪怕是先在日程表里预留半小时——甚至十分钟或十五分钟——作为专属训练时间，这就是改变的起点。

If it means putting in half an hour and putting in your diary saying this is half an hour for me to do something, that's how it starts, or even ten minutes or even fifteen minutes.

我认为关键在于重新定义它的本质，对吧？就像之前讨论过的，如果你把它视为需要高度专注的健美式训练，自然容易说‘我没时间’

Think that's really important is reassessing what it is, right? Because back to stuff we touched on already, if you think what it is is a very sort of purposeful bodybuilding style workout, then it's very easy to say, well, I haven't got time,

我没有

I don't

健身房使用权，没有这个，没有那个。关键在于找到其他适合自己的方式，明白吗？不是硬要把方钉塞进圆孔里，一切都要循序渐进。

have gym access, don't have this, don't have that. It's finding other ways that do fit, you know? It's not trying to push a square peg for a round hole All at a time,

一切始于第一步。无论何时，那总是最艰难的。即使在我曾有过缺乏动力的阶段——记得我们在温布尔登拍摄《转折点》时，我住在附近，每周四天做《早餐秀》，周日还要做《周日进球》，周三休息但周一要拍《转折点》。做完早间节目就去片场，凌晨3:30起床，晚上6:00回家。工作很棒我很热爱，但最重要的家庭部分却因我的缺席深受影响。

of it starts with the first step. That's always the toughest, whenever it is. And even if, so if I've had a period where, you know, I have lacked motivation. So I remember we were filming, I was doing a lot of, when we were filming Tipping Point in Wimbledon, and I don't live far from Wimbledon, and I was doing The Breakfast Show four days a week, and I was doing goals on Sunday on a Sunday, and I had Wednesdays off, but we were filming Tipping Point Monday, so I'd do The Breakfast Show, then I'd go to the studio, and I'd come home, and I was up at 03:30, and I was getting back about 06:00 Wednesdays off, then I was doing Sunday mornings as well with Cami. Loving, work was brilliant, loved it, but the best, the time I needed, like the most important part of my life, my family, they were really suffering because I wasn't there.

那时我对所有事都提不起劲。后来意识到，要让一切运转并保持精力充沛回家，唯一办法就是从片场跑步回家。现在常建议那些挣扎的人：尽量在回家前锻炼，因为一旦坐下就再难起身了。

And I'd really got this lethargy about stuff. So I felt like, okay, the only way I can make all of this work and come home feeling energised, like I'm So I started running back from the studio. Nice. So I'll often say to people, try and do your exercise, people who are struggling, try and do your exercise before you get home because if you get home, not everyone, if you get home, you sit down, you ain't getting up. Yeah.

很多朋友在高强度工作后都这样。如果能回家前运动，效果最好。当我开始从片场跑步回家时，发现到家后反而精力充沛，为完成训练感到兴奋。我喜欢穿越温伍德公地公园的路线，这样回家后就能真正陪伴家人，而不是精疲力竭地瘫坐着无法交流。

Lots of my friends, but when you've got high sort of volume work or whatever, so if you can do it before you get home, there's nothing better. And what I found was when I introduced running home after the studio, was by the time I got home, I felt really energised. I felt euphoric about the fact I've got my training in, I've done some exercise. I loved the running across Wynwood and Common and through the park and all that stuff to get home. But I saw I was ready to spend some time with the family and not just sit there completely drained and avoid of the ability to talk.

毕竟整天都在说话。运动让我保持投入和活力，想和家人分享当天见闻，了解他们的生活。这个转折点提醒我必须优先考虑家庭部分，要主动安排时间。这些经验至今仍指导着我的训练哲学——必须为重要事物留出时间。

Because I spent all day talking. I was really engaged and energised by what I'd done. I wanted to share my day with them, wanted to find out about their day. And that was a sort of a bit of a moment to just to remind myself that I needed to prioritise that part of my life as well. I needed to schedule it I think we learn from our experience and that has become something that still guides and governs sort of my training now, is making time for it.

好，现在看看日程：如果今天要训练，去哪儿练？可以去健身房，在家做些训练，要么去上动感单车课，或者去Foundry健身馆。

Okay, so where's my day going now? If I want to train today, where am I going to train? I'm going to train at the gym. I'm going to be able to do some stuff at home. I'm going to go into spinning or I'm going to go to the foundry.

把它记在日程里，它就固定下来了。所有人都能看到，我就可以着手去完成。

Get it in the diary and then it's there. Everyone can see it and I can get on with it and do it.

你之前用了个很棒的词我想重点聊聊，因为现在很多人总爱提'自律'这类容易让人压力山大的词，但你用的是'有条理'。你最初谈到营养时用了'尊重'这个词，我觉得特别棒——毕竟换成'自律'这种充满雄性荷尔蒙的词汇太容易了。而'尊重'和'有条理'显然是更接地气的概念。

You used a great word earlier actually that I wanted to come back to because I think it's so great because you hear a lot of people talk about things like discipline and things like that, which are can be quite loaded, but you you used the word organised. You were initially used the word, you respectful with regards to your nutrition, which I thought was great because, again, it would be so easy to switch in that word discipline there or, know, which is very sort of macho. Yeah. It's very self rewarding, but respectful and organised. And I think that that much more grokable concepts.

你看，'要自律'这种话多抽象？但'要有条理'就很具体。你提到的另一点也很精妙——对很多忙人来说，健身常被误解成选美比赛般自私的行为。

You know, getting disciplined, what does that mean? Get organised. Yeah. Make that day. I think another thing you touched on there, I think it's really beautiful, is I think for some people sometimes, especially busy people, fitness can feel like, again, because historically, it's a bit of a beauty competition, selfish.

但你揭示了本质：当你优先规划好这些，反而能更好地为身边人付出。这哪是自私？这让你成为更棒的伴侣、更称职的父亲，不是吗？

And what you've touched on there is actually how by prioritizing that for you, by organizing that for you, you're actually able to show up better in your life for the people around you. That's far from selfish, you know, being able you know, it makes you a better partner, makes you a better father, all these things. Right?

确实如此。年轻时我只想练出好身材，但成为父亲后生活就复杂了。我和妻子安妮从21岁相伴至今，当我发现事业巅峰时却忽略了最重要的家庭角色——丈夫、父亲、家人。

I again yeah. Unquestionably, it starts off with me, sort of as a teenager in my early twenties thinking, I wanna look great, I wanna be in great shape. And then suddenly you become a father and you start sharing your life with somebody and you're being pulled in lots of different directions. And between the two of us, my wife Annie and I, we've been together for sort of, God, crikey, since we were nearly since we were 21, so a very, very long time. And you're absolutely right that the best parts of me when I realised the best parts of me were when I was at work, then I was failing that really important part of my life, which is being a partner, a husband, a father, and being in the family.

为了让家人看到更好的我，我必须调整生活动线。即便累到散架，坚持锻炼反而给了我掌控感。做我们这行就像等电话的临时工，但饮食和训练是我能百分百自主的领域。

And to make that function better so they were getting good parts of me as well. I had to sort of shift things, reroute the bit that actually allowed me to do that, which was some physical exercise of some sort, even though I was hanging, was very, very tired, but you know, even taking control of that, being able to put that into my system was really empowering as well. And I found that that energised me too because I think one of the things with my, the way work has been historically for me, if you work in what I do, often you only work if the phone rings, right? So someone phones up and says, we've the show we'd like Ben to host or whatever, which is, you know, I love it. But there's a very little control I have over certain parts of my life.

这些可控事项产生连锁反应：当我规划得当，不仅自己受益，整个家庭都因此更好。这让我感觉不再被生活牵着走，而是真正掌控着人生的某个重要齿轮。

The bits that I control, the one, the fundamental thing that I control, I personally choose to do is what I eat and what I train. They're the bits that I if I say yes, would like that, I'm going to eat it, I'm going to drink it, I get to do it. If I say I'm going to go and train that, I'm going to do that, I will go and do it and then I get the benefits from that and the knock on is that actually that helps my family in many ways. So a lot of it is, so I've found that being able to be organised about it allows me that sense that I am controlling this part of my life that I get a massive benefit from, that has a knock on effect everywhere else. And then I feel like, you know, I'm not just to everybody else's back and call, that I am running that part of my life in a really sort of consistent way.

我在美国的一位好友对我说，因为他一直在Instagram上关注我的Fit50动态，他说，安德鲁，我必须说，人们对此的参与度真的非常鼓舞人心。很多人联系我，因为我把这些内容分享出来。最初只是我想激励自己，想看看这个有趣的个人旅程会如何发展，但看到这么多人参与进来，对我说‘试试这个，本’或者‘做那个’，一路上给我设定各种挑战，甚至完成了一些愚蠢的任务，真是太棒了。他们都投入其中，分享自己的进展，还有人完成了更健康的40岁计划。而我在澳大利亚的朋友安迪甚至完成了60岁健康挑战。

Really good mate of mine in The States said to me, because he was following my Fit50 on Instagram, is, I think the thing about that as well, I have to say Andrew, the engagement I had from people was so inspiring. Lots of people contacting me because I was putting this stuff out there. And it just started because I wanted to motivate myself and wanted to see how it was going to go as it was an interesting journey for me, but it's just been fantastic to see how many people have sort of latched on and gone, try this Ben or do this and set me challenges on the way in and did loads of stupid challenges. They all got engaged with it and sent me what they were doing and stuff as people done fitter 40s. And my mate Andy in Australia's done a fitter 60.

在美国的詹姆斯问我，'本，你认为哪个运动带来的改变最大？效果最显著？'我思考片刻后回答，其实不是某个具体运动，而是坚持本身。坚持才是带来最大差异的关键。各种运动只要方法正确且持续够久，都能从生理上改变你，但真正的秘诀在于每天都出现。

And James is out in The States said, What's the one exercise Ben, do you think that's had the biggest impacts? That's made the biggest difference? And I said, it's not And I thought about it for bit, it wasn't an exercise, it was just the consistency. Consistency is the thing that makes the biggest difference. All the different exercises can physically change you in some ways if you do them in the right way and long enough, but it was just turning up every day.

就是每天雷打不动地出现，不给自己找借口，想着'我要做这个是因为在突破自我'，'我要做这个是因为乐在其中'，'我要做这个是因为我需要它'。突然这种坚持就具有了传染性，因为你看到了变化。这对我来说是个意外发现——原来仅仅是持续出现、保持诚实、始终如一就能带来如此启示，即便到了50岁这把年纪（老天，我现在可真够老的），但能突然领悟这点...

It was turning up every day, not letting myself take an excuse, just going, I want to do this because I'm pushing myself. I want to do this because I enjoy it. I want to do this because I need it. And suddenly that consistency is contagious again because you see the difference. And that was the thing for me I hadn't really expected that just just turning up, keeping yourself honest, being consistent was a real eye opener, even at 50, for heaven's sake, I'm pretty blooming old now, but to suddenly appreciate that.

过去我总把这视为理所当然。但这次不同，因为我在记录、在思考、在量化，因为不断有人提问，让我真正深入反思。只要保持这种持续性，只要愿意自我管理，我就能持续收获这些益处——它们让我能更好地工作、陪伴家人、与朋友相聚、对他人带来的精彩时刻说'好'。

And in the past, I've just taken it for granted, it's done it. But this time around, because I was measuring it, because I was thinking about it, because I was trying to qualify it, because I was being asked questions, I really thought carefully about it. And that's the thing that will stay with me as long as I stay consistent, as long as I'm willing to sort of organise myself, I will get the benefits which will allow me to go and do my work, spend time with my family, be with my friends, say yes to those brilliant fun moments that people come to me with.

我一直觉得健身训练在历史上被严重误传了。我们总是把六块腹肌、足球踢得更好这类表象作为宣传重点，但其实这些是最无趣也最不重要的好处。它们纸上谈兵很好看。但我想如果更多人能明白——我常开玩笑说——就算没达成健身目标，安慰奖也是活得更久、更好，精力更充沛，思维更清晰，为家人呈现更好的自己，这些才是无价的收获。

I always think that exercise training, whatever, has been historically missold or mis understock mis undersold because what we sort of present as the the fruits of your life, being six pack Yeah. Yeah. You know, better at football or whatever, they really are the least interesting and least sort of beneficial things about it. They look good on paper. But I think if more people realized that I joke all the time that even if you don't hit your fitness goals, the consolation prize is living longer, living better, having more energy, more mental clarity, showing up better for your family, all these incredible things.

没错。马拉松慢15分钟在人生宏图中根本无关紧要，那些只是美好的点缀。拥有健康基础——就像我说的'fitness'本意'适应环境的能力'——才是惊人的。你正在做的、已经完成的这件事之所以鼓舞人心，正是因为你展现了健身还有那么多超越表象的益处。

Yeah. It doesn't really matter if you're fifteen minutes slower in your marathon, like in the grand scheme of things, those are nice touching stones. Having that foundation of fitness, like I said, what the word fitness means, the ability to fit into your environment, I think is incredible. And I think what you're doing, what you've done there is so inspiring for people because you you are showing that there are so many more other benefits.

确实。

Yes.

你知道吗？那些我们可能看到的东西，比如一张很棒的男性健康杂志封面，那就像蛋糕上的糖霜——虽然很美，但终究只是锦上添花。对吧？天啊，真不敢相信我居然要说...

You know? The the stuff that maybe we look at, you know, a nice men's health cover is that icing is a very nice icing on the cake, but it's it's icing on the cake. Right? It's it's oh god. This can't believe these words are about to

出这些话

come out

但真正重要的是你在这个过程中成为了什么样的人。对吧？以及你能为身边的人做些什么。

of my mouth. But it's who you become on the way. Right? And it's what you're able to do for the people around you.

我觉得你说得太对了。虽然听起来可能有点老套，但陈词滥调之所以成为陈词滥调是有原因的。我是个目标导向型的人，喜欢给自己设定挑战并努力应对。我的教练史蒂夫会告诉我，前几天我们在动感单车课上，教练说'好，我们要爬坡一段时间'，但没说具体多久，这让我特别恼火——我只需要知道还剩多久就能保持这个节奏输出功率。

I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. As corny as that might sound, you know, cliches become a thing for a reason. I'm very goal orientated, so set myself a challenge and I love to try and rise to the challenge. Steve, my trainer will tell me, he'll go right, oh, I thought we did a thing in this spinning class the other day and the spin instructor goes right, we're just gonna climb this hill for however long. He didn't say, and was getting really annoyed because he just tell me how much longer I've got.

结果到最后他说'哦对了，我忘了告诉你们接下来要做距离挑战'，我当时气坏了。如果他先说'爬坡两分钟然后挑战三分钟'，我完全能接受。我对史蒂夫也是这样，总说'直接做这个'，却不告诉我要做多少组——千万别数错，十分钟到了没之类的。这些量化指标才是我真正能发挥实力的关键。

I just need to know how much longer I've got and I'll stay in this gear and I'll keep putting the Watts in or whatever. And then we got to the end of this and he went, oh right, I forgot to tell you, right, we're now going to do a distance challenge. And I was like, I was furious because if he said, we're going climb for two minutes and then we're going do three minutes of the challenge, great, can get my head around that. And I'm like that with Steve. It's like, right, just do this.

我完全理解这种需求。试图复刻当年的照片本身就是个可视化的衡量标准——我是否成功重现了十二年前的状态？我很多十三年前的朋友都说'我们三十多岁时身材好是因为根本不用努力'，而我想证明的是：你完全可以做到，就像我现在做到的一样。

Don't know how many am I doing? Don't get the counting wrong. If I've done ten minutes, all that sort of stuff. Those sort of metrics I really thrive on, right? And I get it.

（承接上文）通过可见的指标来重现当年形象这个想法很有意义。很多朋友总说'我们三十岁时身材好是理所当然的'，但我想证明的是：即便不再年轻，你依然可以通过努力做到。

Idea of trying to recreate the picture is a metric that physically people can see. Have I managed to recreate what I did twelve years ago? Lots of my friends thirteen years ago, lots of my friends are kind of going, oh yeah, but we were in a great shape in our thirties because we didn't really have to try. And what I'd like to think that I've been able to prove is you can do it, right? I've managed to do it.

这需要条理分明。需要重视我的营养摄入。需要持之以恒。需要某种热情。有时，还需要近乎无情的坚持。

It took being organised. It took being respectful of my nutrition. It took being consistent. It took sort of enthusiasm. It took, you know, being relentless at times.

需要不让任何事情阻碍我。需要每天醒来时想着，我不会给自己找借口。虽然我并不渴望达到那个目标，但我做到了。那感觉棒极了。

It took not letting things get in the way. It took sort of waking up and thinking, I'm not going to give myself an excuse. I don't want to get there. But I did it. It was fantastic.

但我从中获得的价值并非那张照片。如你所说，那只是锦上添花。真正的价值在于我多么享受这个过程，从中学习到多少。我在这个过程中茁壮成长。而与他人互动带来的参与感，正是让我不愿停下来的原因。

But the value I've taken from it isn't that picture. As you say, that's the cherry on the icing on the cake or whatever. The value I've taken from it is how much I've enjoyed that process, how much I've learned from the process. I've thrived in that process. And the interaction engagement that I've had from other people is the sort of thing that sort of means that I'm not going to stop.

我会继续做下去。继续探索这些领域。我会攀登高山，参加更多' Tough Mudder '极限挑战，迎接更多考验。

Going carry on doing it. I'm going to carry on exploring these things. I'll do that high rocks. I'll do more Tough Mudders. I'll do more challenges.

我会直面这些挑战。对更多机会说'是'。五十岁本就是个重要节点——虽然你离这个年纪还很远，这很好。但五十岁感觉像是时光的分水岭，而立之年成为父亲，不惑之年充满乐趣，而五十岁让我意识到：未来或许已比过去短暂。

I'll face those things. I'll say yes to more things. I think turning 50 is a moment anyway, you're still a long way off, which is great. But turning 50 feels like a moment, like in time, whereas my forties and thirties, thirties becoming a dad, forties was, you know, all right, great fun. 50 was like, wow, okay, there's probably less ahead of me than there is behind me.

我要确保从今往后的每一段旅程都

I want to make sure every part of what this journey is from here on in is something that

值得铭记，而我

I will remember and I

我会享受其中，也会从中学习。我觉得现在能对更多事情说‘是’很重要，包括那些以前我可能会害羞拒绝的事情。比如运动和游戏这类我总是会答应，但职业上也是，接受更多挑战，更开放地面对尝试——即使失败也无所谓，因为失败只是另一种学习。是的，这就是关键。我认为这种心态转变源于我为五十岁生日和《男士健康》杂志拍摄所做的准备。

will enjoy and I'll enjoy and I'll learn from. And I think that sort of being able to say yes to more things now as well, things that maybe I would have been a little bit shy of saying yes to, like I'll always say yes to exercise fun and games and things, but even professionally as well, more challenges, being more open to the idea of just going, I've got to lose, you know, you can't lose, you just learn. Yeah. You know, that's the thing. And I think that that's a sort of a mindset shift that has come about through what I've done in the run up to my fiftieth birthday and and the men's health photoshoot.

真棒。

Beautiful stuff.

我有一连串快问快答。直接从你脑海里蹦出来的第一个答案：你健身时必听的歌是什么？

I have got a list of quick fire questions So for just straight from the top of your dome, what are your go to workout tunes?

健身歌单？这问题有意思。我最近迷上了乡村音乐，特别奇怪。虽然我对乡村音乐了解不多，不知道这是年龄使然，还是因为我曾经超迷南方小鸡组合，但现在我的健身歌单全是乡村音乐。

Go to workout. It's interesting you say that. I got into a bit of country, which is really, really odd. But any any workout country place, I don't know much about country music, and I don't know whether it's a reaction to my age or because I once really fancied the Dixie Chicks, but it's now country music.

不错啊。现在正是好时机，我能感觉到。

Nice. Have a good moment right now. I know, feel like it is. Yeah.

我想这要归功于Foundry健身房的一位教练亨利。他说他现在喜欢乡村音乐，有次训练时放了乡村乐，结果我们练得特别带劲。我当时就觉得：必须是某种乡村音乐才行——只要不是比利·雷·赛勒斯的《Achy Breaky Heart》。

And I think it came about because one of the trainers at the Foundry, I think it was Henri, he said, I'm into country now. He put some country on, we had this amazing session. I'm like, it's gotta be the country music of some sort. Just not Billy Ray Cyrus. There's no Ake, Breaky Heart.

虽然我觉得可能也没比那首酷多少。

It's a bit I think it's a I'd like to think it's a bit cooler than that, it's probably not.

好吧，就在训练中途随机放些比利·雷·赛勒斯的歌看看效果。如果能和任何人——无论是活着的还是已故的——一起训练或跑步，你会选谁？

Well, just shuffle some Billy Ray Cyrus in and see what happens mid session. If you could train or head out on a run with anyone, alive or dead, who would it be?

哦，天啊。如果真能和任何人训练或跑步，老天，你知道的，这本来可以成为拍摄的精彩部分——虽然我还没看到成片——但有一张阿诺德·施瓦辛格的著名照片，他举着自己多年前的照片

Oh, crikey. If I could train or head out on a run with anybody, God, you know, this would be amazing as part of the shoot, and I haven't seen the final pictures yet, but there's a very famous picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger holding a picture of himself sort of a number

几年前的样子。而我们

of years before. And we

我和大卫用杂志封面复刻了这个创意，以50岁的我对比38岁的样子。能和阿尼一起训练算是我的遗愿清单之一。今天我们还邀请了杰森·艾萨克斯，他刚和阿尼的儿子帕特里克合作完《白莲花》。

sort of recreated that with me with my front cover with David, recreated that as a 50 year old to a 38 year old. The idea of training with Arnie would be sort of a bit of bucket list. We had Jason Isaacs on today, who's just made the White Lotus with Arnie's son, Patrick.

他身材也超棒。

Who's also in great shape.

身材绝佳，真的绝佳。但杰森拒绝了和帕特里克在健身房训练的机会，因为他不太喜欢去健身房。所以他们打了很多网球之类的。我就想，怎么能拒绝和施瓦辛格家族训练的机会啊？这可是人生必做清单级别的体验。

Amazing shape, amazing shape. But Jason turned down the chance to train with Patrick in the gym because he doesn't really like going to gym. So they played a lot of tennis stuff like that. I'm like, you can't turn down the opportunity to train with the Schwarzenegger. That's like a bucket list thing for anything.

所以答案可能听起来很简单，但我觉得那一定会特别有意思。非常

So I guess it's a simple thing to say, but but I imagine that that would be thoroughly entertaining. A lot

的故事。

of stories.

是的。没错。不过我可能会非常享受那种感觉。

Yes. Yeah. But I'd probably enjoy that quite a lot.

我希望有人能听着、看着，如果可以的话，请给阿尼的当前分数加点分。

I would like someone listening, watching, if you could, to top up the current scores for Arnie.

哦，他分数很高吗？他们就在上面，而我

Oh, is he high? They're up there, and I

并不反对，如果是的话。不。不。是的。是的。我是说，这是有原因的。

don't disagree if it was No. No. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason for it.

对吧？如果你余生只能做一种力量训练，那会是什么？

Right? If you could only do one strength training exercise for the rest of your life, what would it be?

我讨厌它们。我讨厌它们，但我也喜欢引体向上。

I hate them. I hate them, but I love it as well as pull ups.

不错。

Nice.

如果那也算的话。然后因为你坚持做引体向上，你会变得非常强壮，接着就能完成肌肉上拉动作。是的。当我们开始进行体操训练，尝试吊环和单杠的肌肉上拉时，那种力量与技术完美结合的感觉无比震撼。这些动作看起来简单，实则不然。

If that counts. And then because you mast you get really strong at pull ups and then you can muscle up. Yeah. Like a really great when we started doing the calisthenics stuff and we started doing ring muscle ups and bar muscle ups, there is something incredibly powerful about the strength involved and the technique involved in getting that right. And they look so easy and they just aren't.

所以从引体向上过渡到肌肉上拉，根据我的亲身经历，我觉得是最全面的训练动作。如果非要废除一个动作，我绝对会选择波比跳。我认为那是魔鬼训练，可我的私教却对它痴迷不已。再次强调，波比跳确实是个非常全面的德雷克式训练。对吧？

So the pull up into muscle up would be probably the thing that I feel like is the most, from my experience of what I've been through the most complete exercise. And if it was one I could absolutely abolish, would be a burpee. I think they are the devil's exercise, which my PT loves too much. Again, a really complete Drake exercise. Right?

不过，没错，消灭波比跳，保留引体向上。

But, yeah, kill the burpee, keep the pull up.

我正想说，我常思考的问题是：哪些能力我永远不愿丧失。熟悉我的人可能听腻了——肌肉上拉是我无论进行什么训练计划都会保留的项目。是的，我一直在追求变得更强壮。

I was about to say, I sometimes think of this in terms of what do I never want to lose the ability to do. So muscle ups are something anyone who knows me will be bored of hearing this. There's something I always keep in my program, whatever I'm doing. Yeah. I'm trying to get really strong.

我始终保持着肌肉上拉训练，因为我认为这是个极好的身体诊断工具。你体重超标了吗？你的关节活动度...很有意思。没错。

I'm trying to get. Always keep muscle ups in because I think it's a very good diagnostic tool. Are you too heavy? Where's your, you know Interesting. Yeah.

是的。你的灵活性达标吗？我总在思考：哪些动作是我希望终身都能完成的？这就是为什么我完全赞同保留引体向上。

Yeah. Has your mobility right. Yeah. And I always think, what movements do I wanna be able to do for the rest of my life? Which is why I would agree with pull up.

然后你说你想废除波比跳。而我始终认为的理由——作为波比跳的最大辩护者——是我总希望能保持起身的能力。是的，

Then you said you want to abolish burpee. And the reason I always think, but my argument for my and the biggest burpee apologist is I would always like to be able to get up Yeah. The

我懂。别误会

I get it. Don't get

我的意思。我明白它们的价值。

me wrong. I understand their value.

这些年来，我觉得自己已经被太多足球教练、橄榄球教练、私人教练和健身教练惩罚过了，他们总是说‘好，做无数个波比跳直到永远’。确实，这可能是种折磨。没错，真的可能是折磨。

I think over the years, I've just been punished by too many football coaches, rugby coaches, personal trainers, exercise coaches who have gone right, do a load of burpees forever. And yeah, they can be agony. Yeah. They can be agony.

我完全理解反对的理由，真的。它们被误用和滥用了，但它们实在太容易上手了，不是吗？它们总是...随时待命。是啊，我们还能怎么办？

I fully understand the arguments against, I do. They've been they've been misused and abused, but they're just too easy to deploy, aren't they? They're just always They're always ready. Yeah. What do we know?

我们只剩五分钟了。哦，那就做几个波比跳吧。

We've got in five minutes. Oh, let's just do some burpees.

不。不。不。不。别这样。

No. No. No. No. Don't.

你最喜欢吃什么？

What's your favorite meal?

最喜欢的食物？我其实挺简单的，只要是肉类都喜欢。我特别爱吃牛排，配上些美味的蒸蔬菜。

Favorite meal? I'm sort of very, very basic. Any sort of meat. I do I absolutely love a steak. Steak with some really lovely steamed vegetables.

我现在吃得健康多了，但牛排配上些蒸蔬菜——比如菠菜、西兰花、四季豆之类的——还是我的最爱。听起来有点无聊对吧？其实我对食物和味道没那么执着。我妻子总说我特别好养活，不管面前放什么都会心怀感激地吃完，而且特别擅长光盘行动。

I'm sort of I've got much better at eating clean, but steak with some really lovely steamed veg of some sort, spinach and broccoli, some French beans. It's a bit boring, isn't it? The other thing is I'm not massively driven by food and taste. My wife is always marvelous at the fact that I'll just, you know, I'll eat whatever's put in front of me and be really, really grateful. And then I'm very good at tidying up.

我不是个好厨师，做饭水平一般。我把食物更多看作是燃料，但牛排是唯一能让我馋得流口水的东西。

I'm not a great chef. I'm not a great cook. I just sort of I kind of look at food a bit like fuel. So it's the it's the steak is the bit that I absolutely salivate over.

是啊。能承认这点很好，因为很多身材好的人总把拒绝美食当作荣誉勋章。但事实上，在身材好的人和那些对食物没那么大兴趣的人之间...（停顿）食物对他们确实没那么大吸引力。对，就是这样。

Yeah. I think it's really good to acknowledge that because I think a lot of people who are in really good shape wear sort of a badge of honor that they can turn down all these really nice foods when majority fact of the matter is, on the Venn diagram between people who are in really good shape and people who just, you know, don't don't have the same Yeah. The food just doesn't have the same appeal for it. Yeah. Yeah.

如果有个传送门能让你回到过去，和16岁的本对话，但传送门30秒后就会关闭。你会对他说什么？

You can hop in a portal. You can travel back in time and talk to a 16 year old Ben, but the portal is gonna close in thirty seconds. What are gonna say to him in that time?

慢下来。别那么着急。即便现在我也在克服这个问题。如果他能有更多耐心，就会意识到未来有那么多值得去看、去做、去体验和吸收的事物——这些他都会经历，但请放慢脚步，抬头看看世界。

Slow down. Just don't be in such a rush. Even now, I struggle with this. But if he could be a little bit more patient, he'd realise that there's so much out there to see and do and experience and absorb, and he will do that, but slow down and look up.

抬头看。抬头看。那很不错。有没有什么健身挑战是你一直想尝试但始终未能付诸行动的？

Look up. Look up. That's very nice. Are there any fitness challenges that you've always wanted to tackle but never managed to get around to?

铁人三项。那一直是我的目标，我总想着有朝一日要完成一次，现在仍会羡慕那些已完成的朋友们。我心底还藏着这个梦想，希望找到一种低冲击的训练方式，然后直接跑完马拉松。

An Ironman. That was the thing it was always gonna be, I was gonna do an Ironman at some point and I look jealously at my friends that have done them and I still sort of harbour a dream that I'll do one at some point, I'll sort of find a way of training with very little impact and then just run the marathon.

直接跑完马拉松。

Just run the marathon.

我过去跑过很多马拉松。比如五天完成五场，还曾骑车横穿全国后与朋友跑回来。我明白连续五天跑马拉松的心理挑战远大于生理——这正是我想说铁人三项训练需要极强纪律性的原因。毕竟要完成长距离骑行和游泳（我并非天生擅长长泳），骑行部分我觉得很棒。

I've done a lot of marathons in the past. I've done sort of five in five days and cycled across country, run back with friends and things. I understand, the thing I came to understand about running five marathons in five days is that it's mentally way tougher than physically. So the idea of doing an Ironman, like the, this, what I was, we're talking about the discipline of the training, because you have to be disciplined when you're doing something like that to get that sort of distance cycling and that sort of distance swimming, because I'm not a natural sort of distance swimmer. Cycling, I think it would be great.

跑步对我不是问题。所以把铁人三项收入囊中仍是我的梦想。只是不确定身体能否承受——关键不在赛事本身，而在于备赛期间的训练强度。

The running, don't think I'd have an issue with. So trying to get an Ironman under my belt would be I still I still harbor dreams and ambitions to do something like that. I'm not sure whether my body could cope with and it's not necessarily the actual challenge of the Ironman itself, it's training. The volume of the training. In the volume of the training, in the run up to it.

让我打住这个话题。虽然可能让你觉得无聊，但当前确实有大量关于耐力训练最低有效剂量的研究和讨论。重点是在比赛日发挥状态，而非一味堆积跑量。

There's let me stop rolling on. I'll I'll I'll bore you with this, but there's so much literature and there's so much noise now around minimum effective dose run training for endurance. Just for that, you know, do you because it you wanna express it on the day, but you don't necessarily need to chalk up that big mileage on the on the run up.

有趣的是，我曾沉迷拳击运动，爱上了那个充满攻击性、心肺和体能挑战的自己。为慈善机构Sport Relief参赛时，我在锡利群岛的特雷斯科岛跑了七又四分之三圈完成马拉松——全程没有任何专项训练。

I did a interestingly, on that, I did the I did a lot of boxing for a while, which I absolutely fell in love with and loved the aggressive side of me, the cardio side of me, the physical side of me. So I did the sport relief for a while. They used to have a celebrity boxing bout, and I fought Lamar. And in the run up to that, I did a marathon in on the Sili Isles on on Tresco, seven three quarter laps of the island. Did no marathon training at all.

我为这场比赛进行了训练。为这场三回合、每回合两分钟的比赛做了充分准备，虽然可能本该如此，但我确实投入了大量训练。当时我还跑出了个人最快的马拉松成绩，大概用了3小时27分钟左右。但你知道，那很艰难，真的非常艰难，配速还算可以，不算惊人，但也不差。实际上我并没有进行长距离训练，这让我深刻认识到，确实存在一些训练方法能让你高效地获得所需的耐力，而不必在街头长时间奔波。

I trained for this fight. Trained for the fight, which was three rounds of two minutes even, think it could have been, but I just trained so much for the fight And I did the fastest marathon at the time, did the fastest marathon, I think I did it in three twenty seven or something like that. But you know, it was tough, it was really tough and it's decent pace, not amazing, it's decent pace, but I didn't actually do long distance training at And it was a real insight into me is that actually there's ways of training that can allow you to, like you say, sort of be efficient about getting the sort of the endurance you need without having to pound the streets for hours.

是啊，真不错。哇，时间很充裕呢。非常感谢你今天能来参加。

Yeah, Nice. Wow. Plenty of time. Plenty of time. Thank you so much for joining me today.

我非常享受这次交流。非常感谢你的邀请。谢谢。

I've loved it. Thanks so much for inviting me. Thank you.