安德鲁·加菲尔德想打开你的心（重播）

他在家乡强奸了警长的女儿。

He had raped the sheriff's daughter in his hometown.

无论他的支持信堆得多厚，都无济于事。

It didn't matter how fat his folder of supportive letters got.

我以前很生气，迈克告诉我。

I used to be angry, Mike told me.

我会为一些毫无意义的小事挑起争斗。

I'd pick fights over nothing.

我对自己入狱感到愤怒，也希望别人都跟我一样愤怒。

I was mad to be in prison, and I wanted everyone else to be mad too.

但后来我意识到，伙计，这就是我的人生。

But then I realized, man, this is my life.

我想成为那种总是怒气冲冲的人吗？

Do I wanna be that guy, always mad?

我不会结婚，也不会有家庭，不是现在，也许永远都不会。

I'm I'm not gonna get married or have a family, not today, maybe never.

我会一直在这里。

I'm gonna be here.

我是个囚犯，有些事情我永远都不会做。

I'm a prisoner, and there are some things I'm never gonna do.

我可以一辈子为此生气，也可以试试别的方法。

And I can spend my life being mad about that, or I can try something else.

我问他做出了什么决定。

I asked him what he had decided.

我决定做一名尽可能最好的囚犯，他说。

I decided to be the best prisoner I could be, he said.

这一切都与墙上的时钟有关，因为我再次坠入爱河，这成了我的新生活。

This all relates to the clock on the wall because I fell in love again, and this became my new life.

她来自新罕布什尔州，从未去过法国。

She was from New Hampshire and had never been to France.

她离开我两年去写一本关于她母亲的回忆录，但后来她回来了。

She left me for two years to write a memoir about her mother, but then she came back.

她给我写信，我通过她寄来的那些微小照片——她坐在书桌前或站在窗帘旁——仿佛熟悉了她整个公寓。

She wrote me letters, and I felt I knew her entire apartment because I studied the tiny photos she sent me of her sitting at her desk or standing by her curtains.

我们结婚了，但那是在我前往新罕布什尔并见到她母亲之后。

We were married, but not before I went to New Hampshire and met her mother.

那天下午，她母亲几乎不敢看我。

That afternoon, her mother could barely look at me.

她48岁，病得很重，只剩下几个月寿命。

She was 48 and very sick, just a few months away from being dead.

我妻子开车带我穿过她的家乡，我看到了那片湖，她少女时期曾在那里度过夏天，那时她身高还不足五英尺，身材丰满，泳装早已不再流行。

My wife drove me through her hometown, and I saw the lake where she had spent her summers when she was a teenager, not quite five feet tall and voluptuous and swimsuits long gone.

我们下午吃着冰淇淋，轻声交谈。

We ate ice cream and talked quietly in the afternoon.

她握着我的手。

She held my hand.

她送给我一块昂贵的手表，即使表镜划伤后，我依然一直戴着。

She gave me an expensive watch that I kept wearing even after the crystal was scratched.

我们的儿子来自埃塞俄比亚，我曾经在那里看到路边有一匹死马，看起来像一张被遗弃的沙发。

Our son is from Ethiopia where I once saw a dead horse on the side of the road that resembled an abandoned sofa.

我问一个朋友我们是否需要做点什么，他说野狗会处理掉的。

I asked a friend if we needed to do something about that, and he said the wild dogs would take care of it.

五年前，我们把儿子带离了这一切，这或许看似一种仁慈，但同时也令人痛苦。

We took our son far away from all of that five years ago, which may seem like a kindness, except it also hurts.

我希望我们的儿子能认识那些泥泞的道路，雨天时它们像巧克力奶一样，山坡是柔和的绿色，我们的司机因为厌恶狮子笼子的混凝土丑陋而从不进动物园。

I wish our son could know those dirt roads and the way they looked like chocolate milk in the rain, the way the hillsides were a delicate green, the way our driver would not go into the zoo because he was disgusted by the concrete ugliness of the lion cages.

我希望我儿子的亲生父母能看见他游泳。

I wish my son's birth parents could see him swimming.

他游泳游得非常好。

He is such a good swimmer.

我希望他们能听见他大声朗读书籍。

I wish they could hear him reading books aloud.

我希望他能认识他们。

I wish he could know them.

我希望我们的儿子能说奥罗莫语，他出生地的语言。

I wish our son could speak Oromo, the language of his birth.

我们的故事充满了爱，也充满了失落。

Our story so full of love is also full of loss.

当我年轻时，我常常早起写作。

When I was younger, I used to get up early in the morning to write.

现在我早起是为儿子做早餐。

Now I get up early to make my son breakfast.

我很少熬夜。

I rarely stay up late.

我喜欢我的工作，但大多数晚上我得吃完晚饭后继续工作。

I I like my job, but I have to work after dinner most nights.

只有当我俯身越过桌上那堆记号笔和一个小小的巴斯光年玩具时，才能拿到我的笔记本电脑。

I can reach my laptop only if I lean over the pile of markers and a tiny buzz light here on my desk.

我妻子已经六年没穿过比基尼了，可能再也不会穿了。

My wife hasn't worn a bikini for six years and probably never will again.

她说她太老了，这让我很难过。

She says she's too old, which makes me sad.

她是个美丽的女人，头发已经花白。

She's a beautiful woman with gray in her hair.

我父母不再晚上开车了。

My parents no longer drive at night.

对不起。

Sorry.

该死的。

Fucking hell.

我很抱歉。

I'm sorry.

不。

No.

这太美了。

It's it's beautiful.

你想休息一下吗？

Do wanna take a break?

不。

No.

没关系。

It's okay.

你确定吗？

Are you sure?

嗯。

Yeah.

哦，天哪。

Oh, dear.

我能问你一下吗？如果你觉得这样会让你受不了，就告诉我停下？

Can I ask you if you just this might take you out of it, so tell me to stop?

但这段话为什么对你触动这么大？

But what's hitting you so much in this section?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这很神秘。

It's mysterious.

这就是为什么艺术如此重要。

This is what why art is so important.

因为它能带我们到达其他方式无法抵达的地方。

Because it can get us to places that we can't get to any other way.

我觉得触动我的是，我不确定，我不知道。

I think what's hitting me I don't I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

这是那种珍贵感。

It's it's the preciousness.

正如我们之前谈到的，这是那种珍贵性。

It's the preciousness as we've been talking about.

还有对更多事物的渴望。

And it's the longing for more.

就像我们所有人都带着未尽的求知欲和深深的渴望离去。

It's like, we all pass with so much more to know, with so much more longing.

我们，嗯。

We Mhmm.

迈克去世了。

Mike Mike passed away.

迈克·尼科尔斯？

Mike Nichols?

他确实是。

And he was yeah.

他当时正在筹备他的下一部电影。

And he was in the middle of prepping his next movie.

而他正处在自己最爱的意大利面旁，陪着世界上他最爱的人。

And in the middle of his favorite pasta with his favorite person in the world.

很难理解为什么事情必须是这样的安排。

And it's hard to understand why that has to be the setup.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不明白为什么这件事对我影响如此深刻，但我就是感受到这位先生的文字，是的。

I don't know why it's affecting me so deeply, but I just I feel this man's writing and Yeah.

对我们所有人来说，感觉他触及了某种极其普遍的东西。

It feels like, for all of us, it feels like he's tapping into something so universal.

是的。

Yeah.

一种渴望活在当下的情感。

A longing to be here.

在我们的电影中，有一些时刻，我在多伦多的观众面前观看时，我看到的全是——尤其是在诊断之后或某些沉重的时刻，那些安静的瞬间。

And and there are moments in in our film when I watched it in Toronto with an audience where all I saw was and it was in the quiet moments, particularly after a diagnosis or something, something heavy.

我看到的只是两个渴望活下去的人。

All I saw was two people that want to live.

他们并没有要求太多。

They're not asking for much.

他们只是想要一个公平的机会去创造自己的生活。

They just want their fair shot at at at at creating a life.

我认为这代表了我们所有人。

And I think that's all of us.

我认为我们每个人都只是想要一个公平的机会去创造生活。

I think we all just want a fair shot creating a life.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我很悲伤。

I'm I'm sad.

我很悲伤。

I'm sad.

我为失去任何人而感到悲伤。

I'm sad at losing anyone.

我为失去任何东西而感到悲伤。

I'm sad at losing anything.

我为生命中某些关系的短暂而感到悲伤。

I'm sad at the transience of certain relationships in my life.

我为失去母亲而感到悲伤，当然。

I'm sad at losing my mother, of course.

我为可能失去父亲而感到悲伤，想到当我的侄子们到了我这个年纪或更年长时，我却不在他们身边。

I'm sad at the idea of losing my father, of not being there when my nephews are my age or older.

比如，我为没有自己孩子的想法而感到悲伤。

Like, I I am I'm sad at the concept of not having children of my own.

我为这种悲伤而感到悲伤，但这种悲伤是一种渴望。

I'm sad at but the sadness is longing.

这是一种真正的渴望，对此无需感到羞愧。

It's true longing, and there's no shame in it.

我觉得我们都会感受到，我现在正把自己内心这种非常纯粹的情感——我和你分享的这种情感——套上现代社会强加的禁忌枷锁，这让我感到很难过。

And I think we feel I can feel myself right now putting the kind of the modern conditioning taboo on this very, very pure feeling I'm having and expressing with you, and and I I I I find that sad.

你是什么意思？

What do you mean?

比如，你是在试图压抑？

Like, you're trying to push

我内心有一部分在说：好吧。

There's a part of me that's like, okay.

不行。

No.

喂，老兄，别这样。

Come on now, dude.

振作起来。

Put yourself together.

我希望你别这样，直到我

I wish you wouldn't until I

感谢你这么说。

appreciate that.

但我觉得，这才是关键。

And but I but I I think that is the killer.

那种不属于我的冲动，是继承自我们文化的 conditioning——不许感受、让心硬化、不袒露内心、不信任他人以心相待，正是这些让我们陷入困境。

And and that that impulse that is not mine, that is inherited, that is conditioned from our culture to not feel, to calcify the heart, to not reveal the heart, to not trust another person with with our hearts is what gets us into trouble.

我觉得，在当今世界活着，感到绝望实在太容易了。

And I think it's so easy now to feel hopeless in this current state of the world being alive right now.

我能感受到深深的绝望，我们可能会感到麻木、疏离和孤立。

I can feel quite hopeless, And we can feel quite numb, and we can feel quite disconnected and isolated.

但我不知道。

But I don't know.

我觉得，那种渴望存在于我们每个人心中。

I feel like the feeling the the the longing lives in all of us.

那种渴望连接、渴望爱、渴望冒险的渴望。

The longing the longing to connect, the longing to love, the longing to risk.

嗯。

Yeah.

我非常感谢你对我们如此坦诚。

I really appreciate you being so open with us.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，这为这篇作品带来了一种新的深度，我认为。

I mean, it brings a new depth, I think, to this piece.

也许这篇散文正在经历一种裂开的过程，就像你提到的第一次读剧本时那样。

Maybe there's also a cracking open happening with this essay similar to what you mentioned reading the script for the first time

当然。

For sure.

《我们生活在时间中》，我很感激能见证它，或与它同处一室。

Of We Live in Time, and I'm grateful to be able to witness it or be in the same room as it.

所以，请留出空间。

So Hold space.

你为它营造了一个非常美好的空间。

You're holding you're holding lovely space for it.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我能和你做个meta对话吗？

Well, can I meta with you for a second?

说吧。

Get into it.

我们之前做这些散文朗读时，从来没有人会这样停下来，我觉得这对我来说非常有趣，因为我正在听你朗读，感受作者的声音和体验。

No one has ever stopped in this way when we've done these essay reads, and I find it very it's very interesting for me to experience because I'm listening to you read this and inhabit the voice and the experience of the author.

然后你以一种方式跳脱出来，这既让我觉得非常符合你一贯的风格，但又依然深深沉浸在这个世界中。

And then you break out in this way that feels at once very you from what I know of you, but also very much still in this world as well.

这真的很有趣。

And it's it's very interesting.

我觉得你正在连接许多不同的世界。

I feel like you're bridging many different worlds.

我也觉得你又在扮演塔比阿斯的角色，从我在电影中看到的那种视角在说话。

I also feel like you're kind of inhabiting the role of Tobias again and speaking from that perspective that I saw in the film.

所以我觉得你有点在不同世界之间跳跃，这非常有趣。

So I feel like you're world jumping a bit, and it's very interesting.

这真的很棒，但这个词用错了。

It's really neat, and that's the wrong word.

这确实很棒。

This is neat.

完全棒极了。

Totally neat.

但我希望这种互动能成为人们对更常态的交流方式。

But I I want this to be a more normal type of interaction for people.

你随时准备好了就行。

Whenever you're ready.

嗯。

Yeah.

我准备好了。

I'm ready.

你停在

You stopped at

嗯。

Yeah.

我记得。

I remember.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我父母不再晚上开车了，爱好也越来越少。

My parents no longer drive at night and have fewer and fewer hobbies.

今年夏天，我母亲专门为我儿子做了一盒饼干，我很高兴看到他们在厨房里安静地交谈。

This summer, my mother made a box of cookies just for my son, and I was happy to see them talking quietly in the kitchen.

我始终意识到那些错失的机会。

I'm constantly aware of lost opportunities.

我曾经以为这些错失的机会就像火车窗外一闪而过的美丽小镇，但现在我想象它们是来自过去的灯笼，照亮前方的道路。

I used to think such lost opportunities were beautiful towns flashing by my train windows, but now I imagine they are lanterns from the past, casting light on what's ahead.

我的生活被数百种方式所限制，而且在我儿子成长、我和妻子变老的多年里，这种情况还会持续。

My life is constrained in hundreds of ways and will be for years as my son grows up and my wife and I grow older.

我不知道自己是否还能回到巴黎，也许永远不会了。

I don't know when I will return to Paris, if ever.

我不知道自己是否还能完成我的书，或者什么时候能完成。

I don't know when or if I will finish my book.

我知道我非常喜欢和儿子一起吃早餐。

I do know I love eating breakfast with my son.

我妻子希望我们一次只打开一盒麦片，以免麦片受潮变软，但我和儿子总是最早起床，所以我们吃自己想吃的。

My wife wants us to open only one box of cereal at a time to keep the flakes from going stale, but my son and I get up first, so we eat what we want.

我们喜欢改变。

We like to change.

每当我打开一盒新的麦片，他都会给我竖起大拇指。

He gives me a thumbs up whenever I open a new box.

在我们家，晚餐时我们会聊聊各自的一天，分享当天最棒和最糟的部分。

In our family, we talk about our days and recount our best part and worst part at dinnertime.

上周，我正给儿子读睡前故事，却被桌上待办的笔记本电脑和工作分了心。

Last week, I was reading a bedtime story with my son and was distracted by the laptop and work, waiting on my desk.

但我转过身对他说道：我们忘了说今天最棒和最糟的部分。

But I turned to him and I said, we forgot best part, worst part.

你今天最棒的部分是什么？

What was the best part of your day?

他把下巴靠在我肩膀上，说：这就是爸爸。

He pushed his chin into my shoulder and said, this is daddy.

就是这样。

This is.

我感觉自己像个傻瓜。

I felt a complete fool.

我不得不闭上眼睛片刻，然后我们达成一致，他最糟糕的部分是哭着不想吃鹰嘴豆的时候。

I had to close my eyes for a moment, and then we agreed that his worst part was when he had cried about eating chickpeas.

我小时候讨厌甜菜。

When I was a boy, I hated beets.

我希望我能保护我的儿子，让他在能忍住眼泪之前都远离甜菜。

I hope I can protect my son from beets until he's old enough to hold in the tears.

它们不值得。

They're not worth it.

当我手表的电池耗尽时，我仍然戴着它。

When the battery in my watch died, I still wore it.

这块手表似乎在说，现在几点并不重要。

There was something about the watch that said, it doesn't matter what time it is.

以月、年为单位思考吧，有人爱你。

Think in months, years, someone loves you.

你要去哪里？

Where are you going?

有些事情你永远都不会做。

There are some things you will never do.

这无关紧要。

It doesn't matter.

不用着急。

There is no rush.

做最好的囚徒。

Be the best prisoner you can be.

大

Big

呼吸。

breath.

有一首诗让我想到了它。

There's a poem that it makes me think of.

求你了。

Please.

能

Can

我？

I?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

它是

It's Are

你连上Wi-Fi了吗？

you on the WiFi?

没有。

No.

我想我其实有。

I think I have it actually.

我手头有一张它的照片。

I have a photo of it handy.

所以我在想这件事。

So I was I was thinking about it.

它叫《观者》，作者是里尔克。

It's called The Man Watching, and it's by Rilke.

我很乐意读一下。

I'm happy to read it.

你想读吗？

Do you wanna read it?

我想读吗？

Do I wanna read it?

不。

No.

我很乐意读一下。

I'm happy to read it.

我很乐意读一下。

I'm happy to read it.

因为，呃，这首诗有点难，结构有点奇怪，但我还是会读。

Because, like, it's a it's a little bit of a tricky one because the structure is a little weird, but I'll read it.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得你 definitely 应该读一下，

I think you should certainly read it,

不是我。

not me.

好的。

Okay.

这是莱纳·玛利亚·里尔克的《凝视者》，由罗伯特·布莱翻译，他是我最喜爱的里尔克诗歌译者之一，也是一位杰出的诗人。

So this is The Man Watching by Reina Maria Rilke, translated by Robert Bly, one of my favorite translators of Rilke's poetry and a great poet unto himself.

好的。

Okay.

我可以通过树木在这么多沉闷的日子后敲打我忧虑的窗玻璃的方式，感觉到一场风暴即将来临。

I can tell by the way the trees beat after so many dull days on my worried windowpanes that a storm is coming.

我听见远方的田野在诉说一些没有朋友我就无法承受、没有姐妹我就无法去爱的事情。

And I hear the far off field say things that I can't bear without a friend, I can't love without a sister.

风暴，这形态的变换者，穿越森林，穿越时间，世界看起来仿佛没有年龄。

The storm, the shifter of shapes, drives on across the woods and across time, and the world looks as if it had no age.

风景如同诗篇中的一页，庄重、沉重而永恒。

The landscape like a line in the psalm book in seriousness and weight and eternity.

我们选择去抗争的东西如此渺小。

What we choose to fight is so tiny.

与我们抗争的东西如此宏大。

What fights with us is so great.

如果我们能像万物那样，被某种巨大的风暴所主宰，我们也会变得强大，不再需要名字。

If only we would let ourselves be dominated as things do by some immense storm, we would become strong too and not need names.

当我们获胜时，是靠一些微不足道的事物，而这种胜利本身却让我们变得渺小。

When we win, it's with small things, and the triumph itself makes us small.

那些非凡而永恒的东西，并不希望被我们屈服。

What is extraordinary and eternal does not want to be bent by us.

我是说，那个出现在旧约摔跤者面前的天使。

I mean, the angel who appeared to the wrestlers of the Old Testament.

当摔跤者的肌腱像金属弦一样拉长时，那位天使用手指触摸它们，如同抚触深沉的乐音。

When the wrestlers' sinews grew long like metal strings, he, the angel, felt them under his fingers like cords of deep music.

凡被这位天使击败的人，他常常只是拒绝战斗，但他们却带着自豪、力量和伟大离去，因为那双严酷的手需要他，仿佛要重塑他的形态。

Whoever was beaten by this angel, who often simply declined the fight, they went away proud and strengthened and great from that harsh hand that needed him as if to change his shape.

胜利并不会诱惑这个人。

Winning does not tempt that man.

他正是通过被越来越强大的存在彻底击败而成长的。

This is how he grows, by being defeated decisively by constantly greater beings.

哦，为什么那样？为什么那样？

Oh, why did that why did that?

我们花一份钱得到了两次阅读。

We get two readings for the price of one a.

实际上，我为这个没拿到一分钱报酬。

I'm not getting paid shit for this, actually.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是新闻业。

That's journalism.

你能告诉我为什么吗？

Can you tell me Why?

当我想要深入的时候，是的。

When I wanna dive yeah.

这是一首关于在更伟大的对手、那些不愿被我们屈服的事物面前保持谦卑的诗。

It's a poem about humility in the face of the greater the greater opponents, the things that don't wanna be bent by us.

这是关于监狱的。

It's it's about the prison.

嗯。

Yeah.

我想问问你关于监狱的事。

I wanna ask you about the prison.

最后一行当然也在文章开头得到了呼应。

That last line is also, of course, echoed in the beginning of the piece.

我想仔细分析一下这句话：做最好的囚徒。

And I wanna really close read that final sentence, be the best prisoner you can be.

嗯。

Yeah.

什么是监狱？

What is the prison?

这具身体。

This body.

单一性。

Onism.

这具身体，重力，从我出生到死亡的时间

This body, the gravity, the time of my birth to the time of my death

嗯。

Yeah.

我的白皮肤，我的棕发，我的棕眼睛，我的鞋码。

My my white skin, my brown hair, my brown eyes, my the shoe size that I have.

我永远无法体会脚小是什么感觉。

I'm never gonna know what it's like to have smaller feet.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

我就知道。

I knew it.

该死。

Fuck.

太酷了。

It rocks.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道，这监狱是我想要成为的，我认为最好的囚徒就是最好的自己。

You know, it's but the prison I wanna be the and I think the best prisoner is the best version of this.

最好的，但最好的安德鲁，你知道，我喜欢这样一个想法：在我们生命尽头，如果真有某种天界存在与我们相遇，我喜欢他们问：嘿，你是安德鲁吗？

The best but the best Andrew, you know I like the idea that at the end of our lives, if there is some celestial being that we meet, the I like the idea of of of them asking, hey, were you Andrew?

你做到了吗？

Did you do it?

哇。

Wow.

也就是说，你是否活出了你本该活出的所有可能，或尽可能多的部分？

Like, did you did you live into all of what you were meant to live into or as much as you could?

我不知道。

I don't know.

而监狱，就是那命中注定的事，是我们无法掌控的东西。

And and and the prison being the fated thing, the thing that we have no control over.

而这就只是，你知道的，我们如何向命运屈服，以便活出自己的使命？

And it's just, you know, how do we surrender to our fate so that we can live into our destiny?

你刚才是不是突然想到这个的？

Did you just come up with that right now?

我希望我能撒个谎说 yes。

I wish I could I wish I could I could lie and say yes.

不。

No.

有一位非常了不起的神话学家兼思想家叫迈克尔·梅德，我非常欣赏他。

There there's a there's a really wonderful mythologist thinker called Michael Mead, who I really love.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他充满智慧，是我经常参考、广泛阅读和聆听他演讲的人，他曾是罗伯特·布莱的合作者，后者翻译了

And he he's full of wisdom, and he's someone that I I I look to a lot, and I I I read around a lot and listen to his talks, he's he's he was a collaborator of Robert Bly who translated

哦。

Oh.

那首诗，是的。

That poem and yeah.

我们稍作短暂休息。

We're gonna take a quick break.

马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我可以再多问你一点关于监狱的事吗？然后我保证我们就换话题。

Can I ask you a bit more about the prison, and then I promise we'll move on?

不行。

No.

很好。

It's good.

你觉得我们在里面是孤单的吗？

Do you think we're alone in there?

天哪。

Oh, man.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't that interesting?

因为当你问这个问题时，我想到的是，我们在这里感受到的孤独和渴望，其实是一种无意识的对某种事实的记忆。

Because the thing that comes to mind as you ask that is I think the loneliness we feel here and the longing that we feel here is a kind of unconscious remembrance of a fact.

而这个事实就是，我们所有人实际上都是同一个整体。

And and that fact is that we are all actually one thing.

就像，我这么说听起来是不是像个‘燃烧的人’？我意识到了这一点。

Like, do I do that does sound like I could be a burning man, and I am aware of that.

但我确实认为我们是的。

But I do think we are.

我要说一件事，希望能以某种方式说明这一点，尽管我不确定能不能做到。

I'm gonna say something that is that that illustrates this hopefully in a way that I don't know.

当我母亲去世时，有一件事让我恍然大悟，但也许这只是我的想象。

When my mom passed, something made sense to me, and it could just be my imagination.

这可能是迷信思维，但我其实对此并不在意。

It could be magical thinking, and I'm actually okay with that.

我感觉她回到了她的天使族群中奔跑。

I got the sense that she was back running with her angel tribe.

但我是认真的。

For real, though.

真的。

For real.

因为她在世时，就是一位人间的天使。

Because in life, she was an angel on this earth.

她是个助人者。

She was a helper.

她是个照顾者。

She was a carer.

她是个给予者。

She was a a giver.

她以那些微小、微妙且大多不为人知的方式治愈着他人。

She was a healer in the small, little, subtle ways that are mostly invisible.

她会对自己感到沮丧，因为她无法同时出现在一千个地方。

And she would she would get frustrated with herself because she couldn't be in a thousand places at once.

她对自己肉体形态的束缚感到沮丧。

She was frustrated with the kind of prison of her own carnal form.

又是哈米斯。

Harmism again.

对。

Yeah.

当她离世时，我感受到的一种印象——我在梦中看到的，或者说是清醒时的梦境，我不确定——是：哦，她回到她的族群了，现在她可以同时出现在一千个地方了，因为她已是纯粹的灵魂。

And then the sense I got when she passed, one of the things that I saw in a dream or I felt as a waking dream, I'm not sure, was, oh, she's back with her tribe and she can be in the thousand places at once now because she's pure spirit.

她回到了一切之中。

She's back with the everything.

哇。

Wow.

她回到了那个神秘的源头，那里是我们所有人最终将回归、也源自的地方。

She's back with the source of the mystery of where we all will go back to and where we all originated from.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那只是一个理论。

That's just a theory.

我无法知道。

I can't know.

这可能是完全的胡说八道。

It could be absolute bullshit.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

我也喜欢。

I like it too.

我真的很喜欢这个。

I really like that.

这是一个美好的画面。

It's a lovely image.

我很感激你提起你的妈妈。

I am you're bringing up your mom, which I'm grateful for.

我想问问你拍摄《我们活在时间中》时的经历，考虑到你妈妈几年前因癌症去世。

I wanted to ask you about your experience filming We Live in Time, given your mom's passing from cancer a few years ago.

嗯。

Mhmm.

扮演托比亚斯是否让你对悲伤以及如何在失去亲人后继续生活有了新的或意想不到的领悟？

Did playing Tobias teach you anything new or surprising about your grief and how to go on living after loss?

天啊。

Damn.

天哪。

Gosh.

我认为这部电影美妙之处在于它尊重了悲伤。

I think I think what the film does beautifully is it honors grief.

它尊重了悲伤的体验。

It honors the experience of grief.

它也致敬了我们今天所读的那篇散文所做的事情。

It honors what the essay does that we we we we read today as well.

它承认我们无法掌控自己失去什么、如何失去以及何时失去。

It acknowledges that we don't get to be in charge of what we lose, how we lose it, and when.

我觉得我一直在与失去抗争。

And I think I I fight loss all the time.

我总是愚蠢地、固执地、以自我为中心地抗拒失去。

I try to resist loss all the time, foolishly, and pig headedly and egotistically.

关于放手一切的无常本质，我想起我最近有一位朋友去世了。

And I think, in terms of the transient nature of of of letting go of everything, I had a I had a friend that passed recently.

抱歉。

Sorry.

谢谢。

Thank you.

他某种程度上就像一位禅师。

And he he was a he was like a zen master in some regard.

不是有意的，他只是那样。

Not intentionally, he just was.

在他生命的尽头，他允许自己体验过渡的悲伤与喜悦，正如他所说，前往彼岸。

And by the end of his life, he was allowing himself the sorrow and the joy of transitioning, as he said it, going over to the other side.

他的勇气中有一种无比精致的东西。

And there was something so exquisite about his courage.

他的勇气不仅在于接受‘事情必须如此’，还在于他敢于说‘我想留下来’。

His courage not only to be like, this is the way it has to be, but he's also his courage to be like, I wanna stay.

我希望我能留下来。

I wish I could stay.

我还有更多想做的事。

I have more I wanna do.

我很伤心，不能再做你的朋友了。

I'm so sad I'm not gonna be able to be your friend anymore.

事实上，我觉得你就像我的另一个儿子。

In fact, I felt like you were another son to me.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我真希望我能，但再见了，我爱你。

I wish I could, but bye bye, and I love you.

我的意思是，如果我能以任何方式追随我朋友的脚步，那将会是——正如我所说，迈克·尼科尔斯把自己完全奉献了出去。

Like, it's like, there's if I can if I can follow in my my friend's footsteps in any way, that would be, And and and Mike as Mike Nichols, as I said, giving himself away.

是的。

Yeah.

轻盈地面对一切，不渴望成为墓地中最富有的人，也不特别在意留下什么遗产，只是单纯地……

Holding it lightly, not wanting to be the richest man in the graveyard or caring about legacy particularly, but just kind of just like

能够在当下保持专注，同时为未来给予宽容，并平等拥抱两者。

Being able to be present while also giving grace to the future and embracing both in equal turn.

我想再回到这部电影一次，托拜厄斯和阿尔梅特出色地做到了这一点，平衡了当下与对未来的展望。

I feel like to bring it back just once more to the to the movie, Tobias and Almet do a really admirable job of doing that, of balancing the the present and also looking forward.

你如何在自己的人际关系中调校这种平衡？

How do you calibrate that balance in your own relationships?

抱歉，问题有点难。

Sorry, heavy hitters.

我们可以问些简单点的问题。

We could go with easier questions.

不。

No.

听我说。

Listen.

我喜欢这个，你知道的。

I love this, you know.

我太喜欢了。

I love it.

这正是我想要的人生。

This is what I'm I wanted my life to be.

这其实是个很难的问题。

It's a tough question, actually.

嗯。

Yeah.

好吧，时间。

Well, time.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得？

I think?

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

那是什么？

What is it?

我们生活在其中。

We live in it.

但那到底是什么呢？

What is it, though?

你知道的吧？

You know?

比如，未来已经发生了。

Like, the future has already happened.

比如，一切都是相连的。

Like, it's there's no it's all connected.

比如，我再次爱上什么了，我想，那篇论文里提到，错失的机会会化作灯笼，指引通往未来的路。

Like, I'm I'm what I love again, I think, what was said in this essay about the missed opportunities becoming lanterns to guide the way into a future.

那真是太美了，我在第二次阅读时更深地理解了它。

It was so beautiful, and I really got it in a deeper way in the second reading.

就像，我不知道，要倾听并信任自己的渴望真的很难。

It's like, I don't know, it's so hard to listen and trust one's longing.

我认为我们每个人内心都有如此多渴望生活的愿望。

I think we all have so much longing in us to live.

我们心中都有一个对生活应有的样子、感觉、味道和感知的图像，但要鼓起勇气去追随这些渴望，去拥有它们，去真正想要我们所想要的，实在太难了。

We have an image of what our life wants to look like, feel likes, taste, sense, like I think it's it's so hard to have the courage to follow those longings, to own those longings, to want what we want.

因为万一我们最终得不到呢？

Because then what if we don't fucking get it?

然后心碎就来了。

And then the heartbreak comes.

而最深层的渴望，恰恰是我们最不敢提及的，那些可能真的会让我们付出代价的渴望。

And and the deepest longings are the ones that we are really afraid to mention, the ones that that really could cost us.

只分享你觉得舒服的部分就好。

Only as much as you feel comfortable sharing.

我想问你最后一个问题是，你在谈论你所渴望的东西。

I think one of my final questions to you, you're speaking about the things you long for.

嗯。

And I wonder Mhmm.

无论你感觉舒服的

Whatever you feel comfortable

嗯。

Mhmm.

分享，你个人生活中有哪些渴望的东西？

Sharing, what are some things that you're Personal your own life?

它们都很基本。

They're pretty basic.

它们都很普通。

They're pretty garden variety.

我觉得这很令人惊讶。

I find that surprising.

不。

No.

我渴望爱，渴望与生命相连，渴望建立连接。

But I long I long for I long for love to to connect with life, to connect.

我不是说这很宽泛，但我想勇敢地生活。

I it's it's not like this is very broad in general, but it's like I want I wanna live courageously.

我想真实地活着，无论那意味着什么。

I wanna live true to myself and whatever that means.

我想创造一些美丽的事物，它们能与人产生共鸣，给予人们慰藉和安慰，帮助他们与世界和自己建立联系。

I wanna make things that are beautiful and that connect with people that give people some solace, some comfort that help them connect with the world and themselves.

我想要深厚的友谊。

I want I want great friendships.

我想要与家人共度美好时光。

I want I want great time with my family.

我希望与朋友、伴侣和家人建立健康、有界限的关系。

I want healthy boundaried relationships with friends and and partners and family members.

我现在真的想弄清楚，我正在努力解决自己生活中的共生依赖问题。

I I I wanna know right now, I'm working on codependency in my life.

我想真正地了解自己。

I wanna know for real.

你能详细说说吗？

Can you go into that?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我只是， basically，我想知道你在哪里结束，我从哪里开始。

I just, like, basically, I wanna know where you end and I begin.

对。

Right.

我不想，感觉我必须承担、变成并承载所有我想要的‘我’？

I don't wanna, like, feel like I have to take on and become and hold all of I want Me?

全部的我？

All of me?

尤其是你的一切。

All of you, particularly.

你单身吗？

Are you single?

这不关你的事。

That is none of your business.

所以不关。

And so no.

没关系。

It's fine.

问这个问题没什么不对。

That's it's it's a fine thing to ask.

而且奇怪的是，不知为何，我从不在公开场合谈论我生活的这一部分。

And and, yeah, weirdly, for whatever reason, I I don't give that part of my life any anywhere publicly.

我就是不谈。

I just don't.

嗯。

Yeah.

我尊重

I respect

它。

it.

只是不

It's just not

我得问一下。

I had to ask.

你知道，我是个爱情剧迷。

It's You know, I a love show.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这完全没问题。

It's totally fine.

而且，我理解这个问题。

And, like and I understand the question.

我认为这是一种非常神圣的事情，我认为成为一个公众人物对任何人来说都非常具有挑战性，更不用说像我这样敏感的小混蛋了。

And I think it's such a sacred thing, and I think I think becoming a public person is is very challenging, I think, for anybody, let alone a sensitive little fuck like me.

我知道你和我可能会就这个问题展开一场非常愉快的对话，但有些听众会——

And I I just know that you and I might have a really lovely conversation about, you know, coming off of that question, but people certain people listening

没错。

from Right.

某些其他媒体会抓住这句话，把它变成一种剥削性的东西。

Certain other publications will take that and turn it into something that is exploitative.

我明白。

I understand.

我对那种事情完全不感兴趣。

And I'm just not interested in in in in that.

好的。

Okay.

我可以一直聊下去，但我们确实——

I could talk forever, but we do.

我想尊重你的时间。

I wanna respect your time.

你有一颗善良的心。

You have a heart out.

所以我要结束了。

So I'm gonna close this.

好的。

Okay.

我试图和你辩论，你可以告诉我你更愿意做哪一个。

I'm trying to debate you can tell me which one you'd rather do.

因为我原计划以一个游戏结束这次对话，这是文章作者克里斯·亨廷顿和他孩子玩的游戏：一天中最好的部分和最糟的部分。

Because I was planning on ending this by playing the game that Chris Huntington, the author of the essay, plays with his kid, which is best part, worst part of our days.

真好。

Nice.

或者好的。

Or Yes.

什么？

What?

我们可以做你提到的耶稣会祈祷那种事。

We could do the thing that you were talking about with the Jesuit prayers.

哦。

Oh.

你可以说出四件让你感觉很好的事，不一定非得说四件。

And you could say four things that made you feel very well, don't have to say four.

你可以谈谈今天让你感到专注的几件事。

You could say a couple things that made you feel present today.

你知道吗？

You know what?

我觉得我们来选你的冒险吧。

I think Let's choose your adventure.

这两者其实是一回事。

They're both the same thing.

我觉得最好的部分、最差的部分和耶稣会的祈祷其实有点相似。

I think best part, worst part, and the Jesuit prayer are kind of very similar things.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来做最好的部分和最差的部分吧。

So let's do best part, worst part.

我们俩都做吗？

We're both doing it?

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

这是你最少该做的了。

It's the least you could do.

我们从最差的部分开始吧。

Let's start with worst.

好的。

Okay.

你先说。

Go ahead.

我得想想。

I had to think.

我也是。

Me too.

我想到了。

I got it.

哇。

Wow.

好的。

Okay.

我最糟糕的部分。

My worst part.

我们今天午餐时间过后一个半小时才吃午饭，因此我整整一个半小时都特别烦躁，因为档期安排就是这样，我们在宣传这部电影期间。

Is that we had lunch an hour and a half after lunchtime today, and I I got very cranky for an hour and a half because we the because just the schedule, the nature of the schedule while we're promoting this film.

对。

Right.

你知道的，我一饿就容易烦躁。

And I, you know, I get cranky.

如果我不吃东西，我就会又饿又生气。

I get hangry if I don't.

你一直在对每件事都点头。

I'm like, you're nodding so much at everything

当然。

for sure.

我懂。

I get it.

我最糟糕的经历是今天早上，我醒来时发现厨房里有一只死蟑螂，而且当时我一个人在家。

My worst part was this morning, there was a dead cockroach in my kitchen when I woke up, and I was all alone.

这有什么好笑的？

Why is that funny?

因为真的吓人。

Because it was really scary.

我懂。

I get it.

你有没有遇到过蟑螂？

It was totally have you had a cockroach?

我笑是因为这就像一种认同。

I'm laughing because it's it's like an acknowledgment.

你见过纽约的蟑螂吗？

Have you seen the New York ones?

我知道纽约的蟑螂，姐妹。

I know about New York cockroaches, girl.

你有没有遇到过这种

Have you encountered them this

当然，我遇到过。

Of course, I have.

人类。

Human person.

好吧。

Okay.

没错。

That's true.

嗯，我只是……好吧。

Well, I just okay.

我来告诉你我做了什么。

Here's what I did.

我把它洗劫一空了

I raided it

对。

Yeah.

很多，尽管它已经死了。

A lot even though it was already dead.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

然后我把它冲进了马桶。

And then I flushed it on the toilet.

你真棒。

Good for you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你真勇敢。

You you're brave.

谢谢你，你真的很了不起，而且你能自己做到。

Thank You're really and you you could do it on your own.

谢谢。

Thank you.

但如果你有人帮忙，会更好些

But it would have been nicer if you had

100%。

100%.

一些

Some

帮助。

kind of assistance.

100%。

100%.

我明白。

I understand.

那正是

That was

我最糟糕的部分。

my worst part.