一次即兴时刻如何改变了杰伊·杜普拉斯的人生

你好。我是帕布罗·托雷，这档《帕布罗·托雷探秘》节目的主持人，来自The Athletic。

Hello. Pablo Torre here, host of the show Pablo Torre finds out from The Athletic of

《纽约时报》旗下节目，我们用新闻调查解开谜团。比如：体育界最富有的老板是否曾为其NBA巨星虚设职位提供资金，又或是

The New York Times, where we use journalism to investigate mysteries. Like, whether the richest owner in sports helped fund a no show job for his NBA superstar, or the origin of a

一份NFL不愿让你看到的秘密文件来源。

secret document that the NFL does not want you to see.

本质上，我们是档既有趣又能爆大料的体育播客。每周三次，跟随我们深入兔子洞，尽在《帕布罗·托雷探秘》。

Basically, we're a sports podcast that's fun but also breaks big stories. So follow us down the rabbit hole three times a week on Pablo Torre finds out.

此刻相爱 而你深陷其中

Love now and You fall in

昨夜坠入爱河。爱意胜过一切。为爱而生 为爱而爱。

love last night. Love was stronger than anything. For the love Love.

我爱你胜过世间万物。爱。

I love you more than anything. Love.

爱太多了。

There's too much love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。本期节目是《现代爱情》。今天，我与导演兼演员杰伊·杜普拉斯对话。杰伊的新电影《巴尔的摩人》正在上映，影片讲述了一次偶遇如何让两位主角在一夜之间不断即兴发挥，是的，即兴演绎出他们的故事。杰伊向我讲述了脱离剧本的力量，以及这如何带来一些最出乎意料又收获满满的经历。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. Today, I'm talking to director and actor Jay Duplass. Jay has a new movie out now called The Baltimorons, and it's all about how a chance encounter sends its two main characters improving and, yes, and ing their way through the course of a night. Jay talked to me about the power of going off script and how that can lead to some of the most unexpected and rewarding experiences.

此外，杰伊将朗读现代爱情散文《治疗我离婚的牙医》，并告诉我为何牙医诊所不仅是做根管治疗的地方。不，如果你愿意，牙医诊所也可以成为建立深厚人际关系和做根管治疗的场所。杰伊·杜普拉斯，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Plus Jay reads the modern love essay, the dentist who treated my divorce, and he tells me why the dentist office isn't just a place for a root canal. No. If you let it, the dentist office can also be a place for deep interpersonal connection and a root canal. Jay Duplass, welcome to Modern Love.

谢谢邀请。

Thank you for having me.

我想先聊聊即兴喜剧，我觉得这是个有点两极分化的话题。

I wanna start off by talking about improv comedy, which is like a bit of a divisive subject, I feel.

确实。

Absolutely. Where

你对即兴喜剧持什么立场？赞成？反对？你尝试过吗？

do you land on improv comedy? Yay? Nay? Have you done it?

我还没做过。我确实去过UCB、Groundlings、Second City这些即兴喜剧学校。我常和13岁的儿子一起看SNL的YouTube短视频，因为完全停不下来。他现在这个年纪，根本没法完整看完任何一集节目。

I have not done it. I I have been known to attend a UCB, a Groundlings, a Second City. I watch a lot of SNL YouTube shorts with my son because Totally. My son's 13, and you couldn't watch a whole goddamn episode of anything.

当然。那可是YouTube短视频的主战场。绝对的。

Of course. That's prime YouTube shorts territory. Absolutely.

所以我喜欢这种娱乐性。我始终觉得看小品喜剧要带着保留态度。那些演员真正即兴发挥的桥段...对，你其实是在看一场既惊险又搞笑的走钢丝表演。

So I like the playfulness of it. I do feel inherently that sketch comedy is something that you watch with a grain of salt. Sketches where people are really improvising Yeah. It's really you're watching a tightrope act that's also funny.

有时候吧。我是说，对吧？只能说有时候。

Sometimes. I mean, right? Let's say sometimes.

这个评价很中肯。但我觉得观众需要明白，你们观看的本来就是走钢丝表演。嗯。它有时候恰好很搞笑。当它真的好笑时就是巨大成功，但即便不好笑也依然有价值。

I think that is so fair. So but I think that's what people have to realize is that you are watching a tightrope act Mhmm. That is also sometimes funny. And when it's funny, it's such a win, but it actually doesn't need to always be funny to be valuable.

详细说说。为什么？为什么不好笑的时候也有价值？

Tell me more about that. Why? Why? When it's not funny.

因为走钢丝本身就是戏剧性。你看到的是那群甘愿摔得鼻青脸肿的人，他们注定会失败，区别只在于是否好笑。这其中饱含热情——在我看来，最优秀的小品喜剧演员都是有幽默感的人，而不是刻意搞怪的人。

Because the tightrope act is the drama. Is watching people who are fully willing to fall on their faces, and they're gonna fall on their faces. It's just whether it's funny or not. There's a lot of heart in it, And you see people operating you know, the best sketch comedians, in my opinion, are people with funny bones. They're not funny people.

哇哦。这些人你认识的，迈克尔·斯特拉斯纳，他是这部电影的领衔主演。他天生幽默，就是那种你光是看他表演就忍不住想笑的人。没错。

Woah. They're people who you know, Michael Strassner, he's the lead of this movie. He's got funny bones. He's the kind of guy you just kinda wanna watch him operate. Yeah.

因为就是超级搞笑，我也不知道为什么。

You because it's just freaking funny, and I don't know why.

好的。我们正在聊你电影里那位骨子里透着幽默感的主演。我想从宏观角度，鸟瞰式地谈谈这部电影。它讲的是什么？灵感来源是？

Okay. We're talking about the star of your movie has funny bones. I wanna talk about the movie sort of from a broad standpoint, bird's eye view. What's it about? What inspired it?

简而言之，这部电影讲的是两个截然不同的人在平安夜倒了霉运，被迫凑在一起的故事。影片核心在于他们能否将酸柠檬酿成甜柠檬汁。主角克里夫是个刚戒酒的单口喜剧演员，他因为觉得不喝酒就没法搞笑而放弃了喜剧事业。嗯。

The film, most succinctly, I think, is about two very different people who get shafted on Christmas Eve and get stuck together. And the film is about whether or not they can make lemons out of lemonade. We're talking about a sketch comedian who's recently gotten sober and given up comedy because he feels like he can't do comedy without alcohol. Mhmm. And This is the main character Cliff.

这是

This is

主角克里夫。他在平安夜磕坏了后槽牙——我记得是右侧第四颗。他去找急诊牙医迪迪，这位工作狂的年龄是他的两倍，本不该在平安夜接急诊。结果两人都因特殊原因被家人拒之圣诞聚会门外。嗯。

the main character Cliff. And he breaks his tooth, his back right forty I believe on Christmas Eve. And he goes to an emergency dentist, a workaholic named Didi who's twice his age who really doesn't need to be answering emergency dental calls on on Christmas Eve. And they both kinda get shut out of their family's Christmases for very specific reasons. Mhmm.

这对古怪搭档试图让这天变得有意义。他们各自以不同方式抗拒着现状，最终演变成一场穿越巴尔的摩的公路之旅——他们只想提升这天的价值。在夜晚的旅程中，他们意外地协助对方直面各自最恐惧的事物，竟以意想不到的方式支持彼此完成了曾认为不可能的事。

And they're an odd couple who are trying to make something out of this day. And they're both resistant in different ways. And and what ends up happening is is kind of a road trip movie through Baltimore where they're just trying to level this day up. And they each end up, I think helping each other explore the single scariest thing that both of them can imagine over the course of the night. They end up surprisingly supporting each other in doing those previously thought impossible things.

你有没有过这种感觉？比如，你和某人在一起，可能是初次约会，你对他们非常心动，就是不想让约会结束。于是你不断找借口拖延。对方问：‘你不是早上九点要上班吗？’你就说：‘哦，取消好了。’

It felt like have you been in this situation? Like, you're with someone, maybe it's an early date, and you're really excited by them, and you just don't want the date to end. So you keep making up excuse after excuse. You know, the person's like, don't you have work at 9AM? You're like, well, cancel it.

懂我意思吗？就是这样。‘你饿吗？我们去吃东西吧。’抓住任何能继续相处的机会。

You know what I mean? Exactly. It's like, are you hungry? Let's get food. It's like any other any opportunity to just keep existing.

没错。这段感情最打动我的也是这点——不管是称为浪漫喜剧还是爱情故事——他们就是不断选择继续相处，持续选择与彼此共度时光，我觉得这特别甜蜜。

Yes. And that's what struck me too about this relationship, comedy, love story, whatever you wanna call it, is like they just kept continuing and continuing and and and choosing to spend time with each other, which I found to be extremely sweet.

这真的很美好。我年轻时曾立志成为科恩兄弟那样的导演，想要完全掌控作品，让精心构思的杰作按一年前规划的分毫不差地呈现。但我惨败了，最终成了完全相反的导演——近乎纪录片风格，赋予演员展现真实的权利，我负责捕捉。我鼓励他们即兴发挥。

That's really nice. Yeah. I mean, look, I wanted to be the Coen brothers when I was coming up. I wanted to be I wanted to have, you know, the most controlled, brilliant, you know, envisioned work unfolding in front of me as I had planned it to a tee the year before. I failed miserably at that, and I turned into kind of the opposite kind of filmmaker, which is almost a documentary style where I empower actors to do and live truth, and then I capture it and, you know, I'm encouraging them to improvise.

我们会反复打磨剧本，修改无数稿。但在拍摄日，如果你追求最高级别的真实，就必须直面现场状况。比如演员情绪低落时，若强行要求他按剧本演活泼，只会得到别扭的表演，最后你会觉得这场戏很怪。

Look, we write a script very intensely and many, many drafts. But on the day, I just feel that if you're going for the highest level of truth, you have to be honest about what's actually happening. You know, an actor comes in and they're in a really bad mood. And if you try and force them to be peppy because the script says they're peppy, you're gonna get a weird peppy person. And then you're gonna be like, that was a weird scene.

你必须接受他们今天心情极差，无法完全摆脱这种情绪。所以要将其融入表演。这只是我工作方式的一个简单例子——基于当下真实状况进行调整。我称之为‘目标导向即兴’：你不是来搞笑的（当然如果你是天生喜剧咖，尽管发挥），重点是明确角色在这场戏的目标，不择手段去实现。

You have to acknowledge that they're in a really bad mood and they're not gonna fully beat this mood today. And so you have to incorporate it. That's just like a first simple example of the protocol of how I would think about working with somebody on a day like that, and how you're just working with the truth of what's in front of you. What I call it is goal based improvisation, which is you're not here to be funny or to I mean, look, if you're a funny fucking person, and you can kinda level it up mom. Do it.

尽管放手去做。可以使用剧本台词和方法，但如果你想突破框架，就大胆突破。

Please do it. You know? But the the the concept is, you know what your character is trying to achieve in this scene, I want you to get it by any means necessary. You can use the words in the script and the methodologies in the script. But if you want to shake it up, shake it up.

这样一来，对面的演员就会意识到此刻任何事情都可能发生。而这种‘一切皆有可能’的感觉，正是我作为电影制作人和观众都深深着迷的。

And then what that does in turn is that actor across from you knows that anything could happen right here in this moment. And that feeling that anything can happen is what I'm addicted to as both a filmmaker and a viewer.

你能指出电影中某个时刻吗？就是这种基于目标的即兴发挥取得了效果，克里夫和迪迪这两个角色的表现让你感到意外，他们共同创造的某个瞬间？

Is there a moment that you can point to in the film where you where this goal based improvisation paid off and you were surprised by what the characters Cliff and and Dee Dee were were doing, something they made together?

船上有个场景

There was a moment on the boat

我超爱那段戏。

I love that scene.

当时他们实际上已深入他内心的黑暗面，在舞台上完成了一段即兴表演——虽然她完全不知道自己在做什么，却意外拯救了他。在那段即兴表演中，他们开始流露出彼此间的吸引力。

Where they are start they've just essentially gone into his heart of darkness and done an improvisation scene on stage where she kind of saved him even though she had no idea what she was doing up there. And in that improvisation scene, they started to express some of the attraction that they had towards each other.

这是我最喜欢的

This is one of favorite

舞台上角色性吸引力的化身。但我们都知道，他们也清楚，这份情感是真实的。没错。层层套娃。他们当时在巴尔的摩港口的船上，基桥之下——那座桥在我们拍摄完两个月后就倒塌了。

the sex avatar of the characters on stage. But we know and they know that it's real. Yes. So meta meta meta. And they're on a boat on the water in the harbor in Baltimore under the Key Bridge, which came down two months after we shot it.

天啊。

Oh my god.

疯狂、惊人、哇。我们这边纯属巧合和运气。我不知道是谁想出来的，但他们有个互动场景，两人在轻轻调情。她说她在笑他，还说，看看你的脸。她正对着他的脸笑。

Wild, amazing Wow. Coincidences and luck on our part. And I don't know who came up with it, but there's an interaction where they're lightly flirting with each other. And she says she's laughing at him and she says, look at your face. And she's laughing at his face.

他感到脆弱时，她说，我喜欢你的脸。他回望着她说，你的脸也很不错。她至少二十年没听过这种话了。这击中她的方式，如果是剧本安排绝不可能如此自然——因为那也是迈克尔·斯特拉斯纳对莉兹·拉尔森说的真心话：我非常喜欢你的脸。

And he feels vulnerable and she says, I like your face. And he looks back at her and he says, you got a good one too. And she hasn't heard that in at least twenty years. And it hits her face in a way that never could have happened if it was scripted because that was also Michael Strassner telling Liz Larson, I like your face a lot.

这个瞬间真的融化了我的心。我们在谈论克里夫。你提到他内心的黑暗。电影里一个高潮场景是他在舞台上表演小品，蒂蒂上台加入他，他大量谈论了'是的，而且'这个原则。

This moment really melted me. We're talking about Cliff. You mentioned his heart of darkness. One of the sort of climactic scenes of the movie is him doing a a sketch on stage. Dee Dee comes up and joins him, and he talks a lot about this principle of yes, and.

是的。你会如何描述'是的，而且'？

Yes. How would you describe yes, and?

'是的，而且'是即兴喜剧的核心原则——你绝不能否定喜剧搭档提出的任何点子，必须用'是的，而且'接下去。这能创造不断膨胀发展的现实感，保持一切新鲜。不说得太俗套的话，这也是人生的隐喻。你知道，这部电影的主题之一也包括戒酒。

The principle of yes, and is the core principle of sketch comedy, which is you can never deny an idea that someone that you are doing comedy with raises. You must yes and that idea. And it creates an ever burgeoning and growing sense of reality, and it keeps everything fresh and new. Without getting too cheesy, it's a metaphor for life. You know, part of the theme of this film is also getting sober.

而'是的，而且'正是戒酒的重要部分。活在当下也是戒酒的关键。

And that's yes, and is a huge part of getting sober. Being in the moment is a huge part of getting sober.

所以我深受触动，我们常听到‘是的，而且’这种说法，但往往是在愚蠢的语境下。比如，你是充气城堡里的龙。是的。而你是攻打我的骑士——这太糟糕了。看得出我玩得很烂。

So I am struck that, you know, we often hear about yes and in a sort of silly context. It's like, you're a dragon in a blow up castle. Yes. And you're a knight who's storming my I mean, that's horrible. You can see that I was bad at this.

但你将其升华并运用到两个各自受伤的人之间的关系中。我想知道，你是否会在自己的关系里运用这种‘是的，而且’原则？

But it's like but you've sort of blown this up or applied it to a relationship between two people who are hurting in these very individual ways. And I guess I wonder, like, do you find yourself applying this principle of yes and to your own relationships

百分之百。

A 100%.

在你的生活中？

In your life?

噢，当然。我是说，不矫情地说，‘是的，而且’就是艺术创作的原则。当你在独立电影没落时期，没有明星参演、预算有限的情况下坚持拍电影——这不就是在践行‘是的，而且’吗？

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes and is you know, without being cheesy about it, yes and is is, you know, the principle of making art. I mean, when you go to make a low budget independent film with no movie stars at a time when people are telling you independent films are off off Broadway now. What are you doing?

这就是纵身跃下悬崖，祈祷下方是清澈海水而非嶙峋礁石的‘是的，而且’时刻。所有关系都是如此——我不知道未来如何发展，看不清全貌。

It is a yes and moment to jump off of that cliff and hope that there's like nice clear blue water down there and not jagged rocks. Right? All relationships are yes and. Is I don't know how this is gonna move forward. I don't know what it's all gonna look like.

但我爱你，是的，我选择加入。这就是生活的本质。越是能对生活说‘是的，而且’，你就越真实。这正是乐观精神的真谛。

But I love you and yes, and I'm in. Yeah. Like, I I mean, that's that's what life is. And the more that you can yes, and to it, I just feel like the more authentic you will be. And the more you know, that's what glass half full is about.

这就是我们不得不忍受的所有愚蠢陈词滥调的本质。就像问，你是否在肯定此刻？还是在否定此刻？所以是的，随着我在人生中不断前行，处理越来越复杂的事情——这是每个人变老时都会经历的——我发现自己愈发如此。

That's what all these stupid cliches that we gotta live with are all about. It's like, are you yes ending this moment? Are you no butting this moment? So yes, it is I find myself more and more as I go forward in my life and deal with more and more complex things, which is what happens when you get older, everybody goes through it.

真糟糕。

Bummer.

这简直是个该死的苦差事，懂吗？而且永无止境。但越是学会'肯定接纳'，你就越能进入那种基于爱与可能性的生活奥秘，真正放下对回报的执念。不过确实，这世界很残酷，生活很艰难。

It's such a freaking grind, you know? And it never lets up, ever. But yeah, you you you know, the more that you yes and, you kind of move into the mystery of like living out of a place of love and possibility and really having to let go of the return on that investment. But yeah, you know, it's it's a hard world out there. It's a hard life.

我们越能对可怕而美妙的事物说'是'，就越会被引领着——用现代心理学的话说——过上更真实的人生。

And the more we can say yes to the scary wonderful things, the more that we will be led to just I guess like to use modern psych is like a more authentic life.

克利夫显然是即兴表演界的。我们讨论过很多次。迪迪，那位牙医，多么美妙的押韵名字。他们初次相遇就是在迪迪的牙科诊所，确切地说是在牙科椅上。而今天你要为我们朗读一篇同样始于牙科诊所的《现代爱情》专栏文章。

Cliff is obviously an improv community. We've talked a lot about this. Dee Dee, the dentist, wonderful, alliterative name. Sort of their first instance of meeting is in Didi's dentist office and, in fact, in the dental chair. And you are here to read us a modern love essay Yes, that also begins in the dentist office.

必须说，我们的团队非常努力地寻找符合嘉宾特质的文章，要兼顾他们的工作与生活，但从未遇到过如此契合的匹配——我们居然给你找了篇牙医主题的文章。

I will say, our team works very hard to find essays that, you know, fit for a guest, that are the right mix of their work and their life and their but we have never come across a match such as this. We found you a dentist essay.

是啊。那篇文章本质上也是关于治愈与关系的。

Yeah. That's also fundamentally about healing, relationships and healing.

我是说，百分之百。

I mean, a 100%.

太疯狂了。我是说，看这部电影，《巴尔的摩怪人》，从片名就能猜到，每分钟都笑料不断。真的。但这部电影最终讲的是治愈。

Is wild. I mean, look, this movie, The Baltimorons, as you might guess by the title, is a lot of freaking laughs a minute. You know? It really is. But the movie is ultimately about healing.

而这篇文章也是关于治愈的，它让我有点震撼。特别是关于关系中的治愈。

And this essay is about healing, and it kinda blew my mind. And specifically healing in regards to relationship.

稍后回来，杰伊将朗读希拉里·斯通的《治疗我离婚创伤的牙医》。

When we come back, Jay reads The Dentist Who Treated My Divorce by Hillary Stone.

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Wayfair loves fall. The crisp air, the cool nights, and, of course, the seasonal lattes. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home. You know the one.

立即访问wayfair.com，选购精心策划、经济实惠的秋季焕新系列。网址wayfair.com。Wayfair，万千风格，万千家庭。

Head to wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

我叫凯拉。我和丈夫用他的邮箱登录《纽约时报》。每天我们都会比赛谁先完成字谜连接。有时我登录应用，发现他已经完成了当天的连接游戏。

My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access the New York Times. Each day, we compete for who gets to do connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day.

我就说，乔纳，那天明明是我的日子。他却回我，我知道，但我就是忍不住。

And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day. And he's like, I know I just couldn't resist.

如果能让全家用不同邮箱登录，就是帮了我们大忙。我真的觉得这关系到我们夫妻的幸福。感谢您关注此事。

You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails. I really think our well-being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this.

凯拉，我们听到你的需求了。《纽约时报》家庭订阅服务全新上线，一份订阅最多支持四位家庭成员独立登录。详情请访问nytimes.com/family。

Kayla, we heard you. Introducing The New York Times Family Subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

随时恭候。

Whenever you're ready.

好，我要往后靠一点，调整下这个。

Great. I'm gonna sit back a little, adjust this.

搞定。

Get it.

《治疗我离婚创伤的牙医》——希拉里·斯通。我在牙科诊疗椅上度过无数时光，但这是第一次在那里哭泣。本是为牙痛就诊，却恰逢十六年婚姻走到尽头。当卫生员用钢制刮匙清洁每颗牙齿时，我戴着超大护目镜无声地啜泣，泪水完全不受控制。当她停止触碰我的牙龈线询问我是否安好时，我的耳道里都灌满了泪水。

The Dentist Who Treated My Divorce by Hillary Stone. I have spent countless hours reclined in dentist's chairs, but this was the first time I had cried in one. I was in for tooth pain, and, as it happened, also at the end of my sixteen year marriage. As I lay in the dentist's chair, while the hygienist scraped each tooth with a steel scaler, I wept, silently and irrepressibly under a pair of oversized goggles. When she stopped poking under my gum lines and asked if I was okay, my ears were filled with tears.

“抱歉，”我说，“我正在办离婚。”我第一次来看这位牙医时已近四十岁，带着一张让前两位牙医都束手无口的复杂口腔。我有所谓的多余牙根，牙齿下方根须过剩，这意味着——或许不言自明——大量神经末梢。那是疫情爆发的第一个冬天。

I'm sorry, I said. I'm getting a divorce. I was almost 40 when I first came to see this dentist, bringing a mouth too complicated for the dentist before him and the one before that. I have what are called supernumerary roots, an excess of roots under my teeth, which means, perhaps this goes without saying, a lot of nerves. It was the first winter of the pandemic.

我的三个孩子，此前我与他们分离的夜晚屈指可数，正在家进行远程学习。每当周末他们去父亲那里，我唯一能做的就是哭泣。我试图通过《抑制热情》逃避现实，也尝试与朋友户外小酌，但我太脆弱了，那些裸露的神经末梢在体内肆虐。洁牙师递来纸巾后暂时离开，回来时带着牙医一同出现。

My three children, from whom I had only ever spent a handful of nights apart, were doing school remotely from home. It seemed the minute they would leave for their father's place on the weekends, all I could do was cry. I tried to escape into Curb Your Enthusiasm, and I tried meeting friends for outdoor drinks, but I was too raw, too thronged with the unprotected nerves I had in abundance. The hygienist handed me a tissue before excusing herself. When she came back, she was accompanied by the dentist.

“怎么了？”他蹲下身问。“很疼，”我说，“哪儿都疼。”他在小圆凳上坐下：“能指给我看吗？”

What is it? He said, crouching down. It hurts, I said. Everything hurts. He sat beside me on his little stool and said, can you show me where?

我试图指出不适部位，但手指越深入口腔，位置就越模糊。“是疼痛吗？”他问。那不是疼痛，更像是种难以承受的异样感觉，却又缺乏传递这种感觉的受体。我原以为痛源在后槽牙，但那颗牙多年前就被拔除了。

I tried to point to where I felt discomfort, but the location got vaguer the further my finger got into my mouth. Is it pain? He said. It wasn't pain, it was something like a sensation I couldn't bear, but without the receptors to properly transmit the feeling. I thought the ache was in a tooth at the back, but the dentist had pulled that one years before.

就像我的婚姻，牙齿虽已消失，敏感区域仍在作痛。他用小镜子轻叩那片虚无：“这里？”触碰着曾经健康骨骼存在过的虚空。“是的。”我回答。

Like my marriage, the tooth was gone, but there was a tender place still aching. He tapped the area with his tiny mirror. Here? He said, touching the nothingness where there had once been a healthy bone. Yes, I said.

泪水开始上涌。“就是这儿。”我的童年充斥着与口腔问题相关的焦虑和缺失：龋齿、磨牙、错位排列，早年缺失的臼齿让某位牙医戏称我“不是进化非凡就是原始人”。但最糟糕的还是牙根里多余的根管。

I felt the tears welling up. That's it. My childhood was plagued with jitters and loss related to problems of the mouth. Tooth decay, tooth grinding, erratic spacing, Several missing molars that an early dentist joked made me either spectacularly evolved or prehistoric. But worst of all were the extra canals in my roots.

多数牙齿只有一根。臼齿通常两根。三根已属罕见，而我有的四根更是稀少。二十多岁时做的根管治疗因某位牙医未能发现多根管而中途放弃，导致三十多岁出现牙槽骨流失，最终在四十岁挖除了那颗臼齿。

Most teeth have one. Molars often have two. Three is unusual, and four, as I have, is even more rare. A root canal I had in my twenties turned complicated when a dentist failed to find multiple canals and exasperated, quit halfway. This turned into bone loss around that tooth in my thirties and an excavation of the molar at 40.

最终，一根钛合金桩不得不植入我的骨头，一颗假牙，瓷质的牙冠被塞了进去。这花了好几个月，多次就诊。我的牙医工作的诊所在曼哈顿中城一个繁忙的中心，18层楼上。躺在牙医诊所麻醉般的嗡嗡声海洋中，我不知道自己该如何从椅子上站起来。我无法想象那四十五分钟的地铁回家路程，钥匙转动门锁的声音，以及迎接我的空荡房间。

A titanium post eventually had to be implanted into my bone and a counterfeit tooth, a crown of porcelain pushed in. It took multiple visits over several months. The office where my dentist works is in a busy center in Midtown Manhattan, 18 floors up. Lying in the ocean of anesthetizing dentist office whirs, I didn't know how I would ever get up from the chair. I couldn't imagine the forty five minute subway ride home, the key turning the lock of my place, the emptiness that would meet me there.

然后我的牙医，仿佛看到了我脑海中的电影片段，摘下了他的两层口罩，说，听我说。他的脸上惊人地布满了皮肤。我的妻子在我们的儿子两岁和四岁时离开了我们。停顿了很久。然后她去世了。

Then my dentist, as though watching a film clip of my mind, took off his two layers of masks and said, listen to me. His face was startlingly full of skin. My wife left me and our sons when they were two and four. There was a long pause. Then she died.

我盯着他。我在诊所见过他现已十几岁的儿子。他们的照片挂在我们头顶的墙上。我以为我也会死，他说，但我没有。我服用了一年的血清素抑制剂，它帮我度过了难关。

I stared at him. I had met his now teenage sons in the office. Their photo was above us on the wall. I thought I would die too, he said, but I didn't. I took a serotonin inhibitor for a year, and it got me through.

我早上能起床了。我能自己走去上班。我咽了口唾沫，嘴里发酸。你需要开始服用药物。这一年会是最艰难的，但它会让你挺过去。

I could get up in the morning. I could walk myself to work. I swallowed, my mouth sour. You need to get on something. This year will be the hardest, but it will get you through.

我在塑料覆盖的椅子上颤抖，盯着我面前可怜地支撑着的磨损靴子。我是不是坏了？给自己用药和给疼痛的牙齿用药，本质上是不是差不多？在我们婚姻期间，我和丈夫共用一辆总是出故障的车。那些故事在当时很糟糕，但后来和朋友吃饭时却是好谈资。

I trembled in the plastic covered chair, staring at my scuffed boots bolstered pitifully in front of me. Was I broken? Was medicating myself more or less the same as medicating a tooth in pain? During our marriage, my husband and I shared a car that was always breaking down. The stories were terrible in the moment, but good fodder later at dinner with friends.

有一次我们的车在去北方过圣诞节的路上抛锚了，后座堆满了礼物。还有一次它在暴风雪中在布朗克斯的一座桥上抛锚，三个孩子都在后座，路边没有地方让拖车停靠。我不得不拨打911求救，而我丈夫害怕我们会被意外撞上，站在车后30英尺处，向疾驰而来的车辆挥手。现在谁会挥手驱散危险？接下来的一周，我步行去了我的初级保健医生的办公室，她问了我关于我的心理健康史、我的痛苦程度、我的绝望时长的问题，听了我的回答，然后给我开了处方。

The time our car died on the way upstate for Christmas with a backpack to the ceiling with presents. The time it died on a bridge out of the Bronx in a snowstorm with all three children in the back, and no shoulder for a tow truck to pull in. I had to call 911 to be rescued while my husband, afraid we'd accidentally be hit, stood 30 feet behind our car, waving his hands at the traffic hurtling towards us. Who would wave away danger now? The next week, I walked to my primary care doctor's office, where she asked me questions about my mental health history, the scale of my pain, the length of my despair, listened to my answers, and wrote me a prescription.

回到家后，我把药瓶放进橱柜，给自己倒了杯威士忌，躺在沙发上。那是周五下午，我的孩子们周末不在家。我取消了当晚和朋友吃韩国烧烤的计划，决定一动不动地躺两天，作为一种控制疼痛的机制。我会一动不动地躺着，直到我的神经停止疼痛。第二天晚上，我接到了七岁儿子从他父亲家打来的电话，说他想家了。

When I got home, I put the bottle in a cabinet, poured myself a whiskey, and lay down on the couch. It was Friday afternoon, and I was without my children for the weekend. I had canceled plans to meet a friend for Korean barbecue that evening, and decided I would instead lie very still for two days as a pain control mechanism. I would lie motionless until my nerves stopped. The next night, I got a call from my seven year old son at his father's house saying he was homesick.

他在FaceTime上痛哭流涕，脸庞在镜头里忽近忽远，同时列举着他的委屈。给他读完《青蛙过冬》——一个关于青蛙忍受严寒直到春天再次来临的故事后，我假装镇定，强作欢颜以换取他的开朗，然后挂断电话，走向橱柜，从药瓶里取出一粒药丸吞下。九岁那年，一个小镇牙医认为我牙齿间的缝隙是因为系带（连接嘴唇与牙龈的软组织）生长不当造成的，于是将其切除。十二岁时，另一位牙医宣称这个决定荒谬可笑，并嵌入了贴面来闭合缝隙。十七岁那年，第三位牙医在诊疗过程中抚摸我的腿，还邀请我跟他打网球。

He cried bitterly on FaceTime, his face floating in and out of frame while he listed his grievances. After reading him Frog in Winter, the story of a frog who suffers through the cold until springtime comes again, after feigning calm for him, feigning cheer to beget cheer, I hung up, walked to the cabinet, took a pill from the bottle, and swallowed it. When I was nine, a small town dentist decided that I had a space between my teeth because the frenum, the soft tissue connecting the lips and gums, had grown in the way, so he cut it out. When I was 12, a different dentist declared that decision absurd and wedged in a veneer to close the gap. When I was 17, a third dentist touched my leg during an appointment and asked me to play tennis with him.

当我滑脱开并拒绝后，他用力将麻醉针扎进我的牙龈，力道之大让我的颌骨疼痛了一周。我遇到过许多优秀的牙医，也至少遇见过一个恶魔。有时我会将自己的人生视为一场漫长的牙科问题，但这位哀伤的共情者，此刻在我眼中却像希腊神谕，一个意想不到的躯体在我认为自己无法再前行的时刻，提供了神圣的建议。连续六个月，我每天服用一粒药丸。渐渐地，我发现自己收拾小儿子最爱的鲨鱼T恤和迷彩裤时不再那么痛苦，周日晚上孩子们从父亲那里回来时，我能更专注地亲吻青少年的额头。

When I slithered away and said no, he jammed a needle of anesthetic into my gum with so much force, my jawbone ached for a week. I have had many good dentists and at least one monster. I have at times seen my life as one long dental problem, but this dentist, the grieving empath, now seemed to me like a Greek oracle, an unlikely body offering divine advice at a moment when I didn't think I could take one more step. For six months, I swallowed a pill every day. Slowly, I found myself packing up my youngest son's shark t shirts and beloved camo pants with less anguish, kissing my teenager's head in the morning with more focus on Sunday night when they got back from their father.

我开始清晨带着狗狗长时间散步，工作时整天慢炖汤羹。一切变化都不是突然或绝对的，但渐渐地，我能够打开通往街道的门——他们的父亲就等在优步车里，拥抱他们裹得严严实实的小身体，然后放手让他们离开。当我回去复诊时，我没有哭泣。牙医立刻看出我采纳了他的建议。“你寻求了帮助，”他说着拍拍我的肩膀，让我坐进X光椅。

I started taking long walks in the morning with our dog and slow cooking soup all day while I worked. Nothing happened all at once or absolutely, but gradually, I could open the door to the street where their father waited in an Uber, squeeze their bundled up bodies, and let them go. When I went back to see my dentist, I was not crying. He could see right away I had taken his advice. You got help, he said, patting me on the shoulder and settling me into an x-ray chair.

很好。在颗粒状的屏幕上，我能看清一切：坚挺矗立的种植体支柱，口腔重建后那些微小的愈合部位。我带着好奇继而温柔的目光，审视这个复杂而私密空间里发生过的所有故事。整整二十三根牙髓腔和四十四年岁月，铺展出一部完整的叙事。

Good. On the grainy screen, I could see everything. The implanted post, standing stalwart, small sites of recovery where my mouth had been rebuilt. I looked with curiosity and then tenderness for everything that had happened in that complex and intimate place. A whole narrative was stretched out over 23 root chambers and forty four years.

当牙医关闭数字档案时，它们在屏幕上收缩成一个小小的文件夹。它们的消失显得如此自然。就像我们婚姻存续期间的圣诞节和公路旅行照片，这些记录既关乎可见与不可见之物，裸露的神经与抚慰的牙冠，也关乎那个名为历史的领域里，缺席与永恒并存的存在。

When the dentist closed the digital files, they shrank into a tiny folder on the screen. It seemed natural for them to disappear. Like the photos from our married Christmases and road trips, they are records of the visible and invisible, the exposed nerves and soothing crowns, the absence and the abiding presence in a place called history.

我们稍后继续。读完这些，你脑海中浮现什么想法？

We'll be right back. What's running through your mind after reading that?

我想到了‘ surrender（臣服）’这个词。说实话，疫情期间我也曾有过完全相同的臣服时刻——由于儿子肺部有问题（细节不便赘述），让我觉得新冠病毒仿佛专门为夺走他而生。作为父母，保护孩子是天职，但突然间我意识到：我可能做不到。要知道，他从小到大已经历太多治疗程序，无数次呼吸治疗和医院往返。我彻底被某种远超我们掌控的力量所支配。关于是否该服用抗抑郁药，我与家人、朋友和妻子讨论过无数次。

I think the word surrender comes to mind. I've had this exact moment of surrender, honestly, at the same time frame during the pandemic because my son has a lung issue which without going into the deep details, made it feel like COVID was designed to take him out. And you know, as a parent, your job is to protect your kid. And all of a sudden I was like, I don't know if I can do that. You know, we had done so many protocols his whole life already, so many breathing treatments and hospital visits and you know, and so I was just really at the mercy of something so much bigger than us and you know, I had talked about it with my family and friends and my wife many times about should I get on antidepressants?

为什么每个人都得吃抗抑郁药？我那位社工妻子回答说，因为现在的世界太复杂、太难了。

Why does everybody have to be on antidepressants? To which my social worker wife responded, because the world is too complicated and hard right now.

你最终开始服用抗抑郁药了吗？我吃了。有帮助吗？有。这不是很神奇吗，它

Did you end up getting on the antidepressants? I did. And did it help? Yes. Isn't it amazing that it

是的。对。对。确实有帮助，我会推荐给任何还在抗拒的人，试试看吧。

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It does help, and I would recommend to anybody who's just being resistant, try it.

这一刻，我不知道这是否是牙医与文章作者希拉里·斯通之间发生的意外联系。它发生在牙医椅上。你脑海中首先浮现的词是‘屈服’

This moment of I don't know if it's it's it's this unexpected connection that happens between the dentist, obviously, and and the author of the essay, Hillary Stone. It happens in the dentist chair. And your first the word that came to mind was was surrender

嗯。

Mhmm.

对你来说。这让我感到非常震撼，我们在牙医椅上非常脆弱。对吧？我们平躺着。嘴巴张着。

To you. And it's so striking to me that we are very vulnerable in the dentist chair. Right? We're prone. Our mouth is open.

我们能听到、感觉到机器嗡嗡作响，却看不见自己脑袋里发生了什么。我是说，你你你基本上是在牙医诊所开始你的电影的，所以我猜你同意。但牙医诊所那个空间有什么特别之处

We we can hear and feel these machines whirring, but we cannot see, you know, what's happening inside of our own heads. I mean, do you you you started essentially your movie in a dentist office, so I assume you agree. But what is it about the dentist, that space of a dentist office

那真是无能为力。

that is powerless.

是啊。你完全无能为力。你害怕牙医吗？

Yeah. You're absolutely powerless. Are you afraid of the dentist?

没错。我讨厌牙医。

Yeah. I hate the dentist.

哦，天啊。对正在收听的牙医们说声抱歉。

Oh, god. Sorry to the dentist listeners out there.

听着。如果你们听到了，手下留情点。因为确实有些非常可爱的牙医，我就遇到了一位。

Look. If you're hearing it, go easier, guys. Because there's some really lovely dentists out there, and I've found one.

那太棒了。

That's amazing.

但也有些真正的混蛋存在。有些人就是喜欢让你受苦。

And there's some real assholes out there. There are some people who really like to put you in pain.

牙医诊所确实有种特别独特，甚至可以说相当私密的氛围。绝对如此。那么这种场景设定呢？我是说，毕竟两位主角是在牙医诊所相遇的，所以我想你也考虑过那个空间的亲密性。

There just is something sort of especially unique, and I would also say quite intimate about the dentist Absolutely. Office as well. What what about that dynamic? I mean, again, you're you're are the two main characters meet in the dentist office, so I assume you've thought about the intimacy of that space as well.

我脑海里有个构思盘旋了二十年：有人在度假时去看急诊牙医。他的家人都去参加当天的活动了，比如乘渔船出海之类的。他会错过这些活动，而这个人却困在牙医诊所，接受一个需要十二个步骤、几乎耗掉一整天的治疗。

I had had an idea floating around in my head for about twenty years of someone being on vacation and going to an emergency dentist. And their family has gone on to do the activities of the day. Let's say it's like a fishing boat or whatever. They're gonna miss it. And that person is stuck at this dentist office doing like a 12 step procedure that's gonna essentially take all day.

我觉得这非常适合拍成超低成本独立电影，几乎全部场景都发生在牙医诊所里。

And I thought it was like a great model for a super low budget independent film that essentially happens almost entirely in a dentist's office.

这是

This is

不过现在拍的可不是那部电影。这次是彻头彻尾的冒险片。但那个想法一直在我脑子里，后来迈克尔·斯特拉斯纳出现了——他就像个藏在1978年芝加哥熊队线卫身躯里的温柔甜心，这是我所能想到最贴切的形容。所以当构思到他害怕针头走进诊所时，我觉得这是个绝妙开场：'我们能不用针头完成治疗吗？'

not that film. This is a total adventure. But that was always in my head, and, you know, and and then Michael Strassner is like, you know, he's a real sensitive sweetheart inside the body of a 1978 Chicago Bears linebacker, is the best way I could describe it. And so That's good. When I thought of the idea of him walking in and being terrified of needles, I just thought that was a great start is, can we do this without needles?

而女医生回答：'相信我，你不会想不用针头的。'这个设定很棒——她处于真正的权力地位，这正是她生活中渴望的。她有点在行使这种权力，甚至带点羞辱意味地说：'拜托，'

And she's like, trust me, you don't wanna do this without needles. And there's it's cool. She's in a real position of power, and that's what she's craving in her life. She's really kinda wielding it, and she kinda shames him a little bit. She says, come on.

'你这么大个子的强壮男人，到底在怕什么？'

You're a big strong guy. What are you afraid of?

但她同时也羞辱了他，不过随后又对他表现出温柔，我认为这很重要。在你刚才读的文章中，我们也看到了这种温情连接的瞬间。我是说，牙医在象征意义上摘下了面具，袒露了自己的痛苦。在我看来，那种医患关系的界限似乎在此刻消融了，他们暂时脱离了各自的角色，因此得以建立真正的联系。我在想，虽然不必是在牙医诊所，但你人生中是否也有过这样的时刻——当你跳出既定角色时，突然就……

But she's also she shames him, but then she's also, you know, tender with him, which I think is important. And we have this moment of also, you know, tenderness connection in the essay you just read as well. I mean, the the dentist literally figuratively, you know, takes down the mask, opens up about his own pain. And it seems to me like the sort of patient dentist dynamic evaporates in some way, and and and they step out of their roles and are able to connect because of that. And I guess I wonder, like, it does not have to be at the dentist office, but I wonder if you've ever had a moment in your life where this has happened, where you've stepped out of a role you're playing and you've reached Yeah.

因此获得了意想不到的联结空间？

A space of unexpected connection because of it?

有个例子突然浮现，但我不确定是否适合在节目中讲。不过它确实在我脑海里挥之不去。

There's one that's coming to mind that I'm not sure I wanna say on on the air. Take But but it's blaring at me.

噢，那由你决定是否要回答

Oh. Well, you decide if you answer

这个召唤。

the call.

我还是告诉你吧。

I'll tell you the thing.

好的。

Okay.

我来告诉你这件事。所以，有很多原因导致这是我十四年来的第一部原创电影，也是我首次在没有兄弟合作的情况下，以编剧兼导演身份制作的原创电影。原因有很多很多。电影行业在放缓，电视行业却在崛起。

I'll tell you the thing. So, there are a lot of reasons why this is my first original movie in fourteen years, And it's my first original movie as a writerdirector without my brother as a partner. There are many, many reasons. Movies were slowing down. TV was ramping up.

我兄弟成了知名演员。我意外地也成了演员。疫情期间，一部新冠题材的预算比独立电影还高。后来又发生了罢工。兜了这么大圈子，其实是想说我和我兄弟花了十四年才明白，他并不真正想拍电影，而我想。

My brother was becoming a famous actor. I accidentally became an actor. There was a pandemic where a COVID budget would cost more than the budget of an independent film. Then there were strikes. This is a long way of saying that it took my brother and I about fourteen years to figure out that he didn't really wanna direct movies and I did.

这个过程很漫长，对我来说尤其痛苦，因为这始终是我最渴望的事。我一直梦想能和弟弟马克成为科恩兄弟2.0版。在我上一部电影七年之后，我们深陷电视剧制作中。马克突然成了大明星，而我也开始频繁演戏。当时我在参演一部叫《比阿特丽斯在晚餐》的电影，由伟大的萨尔玛·海耶克主演。

And that was a long process and a particularly painful one for me because it was what I always wanted the most. I always wanted to just be the Coen Brothers two point o with my brother Mark. About seven years after my last movie, we were very embroiled in television. Mark was a very famous actor all of a sudden, and I was starting to act a lot. And I was on a movie called Beatrice at Dinner, starring the great Selma Hayek.

我们相处得异常融洽。就像完全同步，一起大笑，玩得非常开心。感觉特别和谐。和大牌影星合作并不总是这样。要知道，我当时演戏经验还很浅。

And we got along like gangbusters. Like we were very just like in sync and laughing and having tons of fun. And it just felt very copacetic. And that's not always the case with giant movie stars. When you are I mean, I was very new to acting.

我能参演这部电影是因为迈克·怀特和米格尔·阿尔特塔欣赏我，觉得我能为影片带来亮点。但毫无疑问，我是这部电影里最不知名的演员。对吧？

I was in the movie because Mike White and Miguel Arteta loved me and they thought I could do some cool stuff in this movie. But I was by far the least famous person in this movie. Right?

嗯，但你现在是这个房间里最有名的人。

Well, you're the most famous person in this room.

好吧，这评价我收下了。现在对我来说，最重要的就是确保自己待在我最出名的房间里。这就是我的新工作。我们亲密无间，她不断追问我的生活细节。但她其实从没看过我拍的电影。

Well, I'll take it. And that's what's really important is just putting myself in rooms where I'm the most famous person. That's my job now. And so we got along Thick as Thieves, and she kept asking me so much about my life. And she had not seen my movies.

她什么都没看见。但有人告诉她，是的，他和他的兄弟一起工作。这整件事很复杂。她开始问我问题，在拍摄间隙用怀疑的眼神看我。她就那样盯着我，试图弄清楚些什么。

She had not seen anything. But people had told her, yeah, he works with his brother. It's a whole thing. And she asked me questions and started giving me a side eye in between takes. And she was just like looking at me just trying to figure something out.

哇哦。萨尔玛·海耶克盯着你试图弄明白什么

Woah. Selma Hayek looking at you trying to figure something

是的。

out. Yeah.

虽然这不是大多数人能感同身受的经历，但当我设身处地为你着想时

Not a deeply relatable experience, but when I can put myself in your shoes

那真是超现实的诡异体验。我告诉你，有一天我休息时，正站在悬崖边俯瞰太平洋。当时我接了个电话，内容涉及马克思和我处境的棘手问题，以及未来可能发生的事——可能还有部电影悬而未决，我能独自应对吗？因为当你们作为团队合作时，情况就完全不同了。

A very freaking surreal experience. I'll tell you that. And one day, I was on break and I was literally on the edge of a cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean. And I was actually on a phone call that dealt with some challenging things about Marx and my situation and what could come and there's probably a movie on the line and could I do this by myself? Because when you're paired as a team, it's like a whole thing.

具体细节我就不多说了。当时我正在处理这件事，萨尔玛走了过来，她抽着烟，看起来压力很大，我在打电话时她就在旁边来回踱步。

I don't need to get into it. And I was specifically dealing with that, and Salma walks up, and she's smoking and looking very stressed out, and she's pacing while I'm on the phone.

你们俩都在悬崖上？怎么

You guys are both on this cliff? How

这是一个很长的悬崖，一处峭壁。我回头看她，她给我打了个继续打电话的手势，仿佛要等我打完这个电话。所以我正在艰难地处理这件事，因为马克和我就像恋人一样，我们真心想照顾好彼此。

big It's is this it's a long cliff. It's a bluff. And I look back at her and she gives me the keep going on my phone call sign as if she's gonna wait for me to finish this phone call. So I'm just negotiating this very challenging thing because Mark and I are like lovers and we really wanna take care of each other.

当然。

Of course.

对我们作为编剧导演来说，这是一次非常漫长的有意识解耦过程。这就像是其中一个关键时刻。我挂断电话，她停下来，扔掉香烟，然后说：我不认识你，也不认识你弟弟，但你需要做你自己，因为你是明星，你需要发光。你需要为自己和你的孩子这么做。这就是我所知道的全部。

It was a very long conscious uncoupling for us as writer directors. And this was like kind of one of those moments. I hang up the phone, she stops, she drops her cigarette, and she says, I don't know you, and I don't know your brother, But you need to do your thing because you are a star, and you need to shine. And you need to do it for yourself and for your children. And that's all I know.

我很抱歉。然后她就跑开了。她是你的牙医。而我并没有说诸如‘我们的合作关系很艰难’之类的话，我根本没提那些事。

I'm sorry. And then she ran away. She's your dentist. And I I wasn't saying things like, oh, we have a tough partnership. I wasn't saying any of that stuff.

我什么都没说。我的意思是，马克和我不会到处宣扬我们的私事。是的，你懂我意思吧？我们是以合作的方式处理的。

I didn't say anything. I mean, like, Mark and I don't drag our laundry around. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we do it in a collaborative way.

我们还一起写了本书。明白吗？我们不会...我当时在片场并没有说‘我无法摆脱这段合作关系’之类的话，我什么都没说。

We wrote a book about it together. You know what I mean? We don't I wasn't on set just being like, I'm getting I can't get out from under this partnership. I wasn't saying anything.

完全理解。哇。她只是感知到了什么。

Totally. Wow. She just Sensed something.

感应到了什么。哇哦。超级原始的。然后我回到片场时，她就像在说，我很抱歉。那样很不合适。

Sensed something. Woah. Super primal. And and I got back to set, she was like, I'm so sorry. That was inappropriate.

我不该那么说的。只是有种能量穿过我，我觉得你需要听到这个信息。

I shouldn't have said that. I just had this energy come through me, and I thought you needed to hear this message.

天啊。她是个灵媒。她是

Oh my god. She's a medium. She's a

真是个灵媒。她就是个该死的灵媒。就像我需要许可去拍电影。你懂我意思吗？就是放手去做。

such a medium. She's a goddamn medium. It was just like, I needed permission to just make movies. You know what I mean? And to just do it.

当时存在信心问题，他们就像在说，我太爱我兄弟了，不想在某些方面抛下他或怎样。你知道，我们的合作关系并非不可否认。我们就像双头怪物。明白吗？拍电影一直如此，将来也会是这样。

And there were confidence issues there and they were like, I love my brother so much and I don't want to like I don't want to like leave him behind in certain ways or whatever. You know, it's not like our partnership was like undeniable. It was like, we are a two headed monster. You know? And that's what making movies has always been, and that's what it'll always be.

所以这真是次警醒。但我又花了七年才拍出那部电影。就是这部《巴尔的摩人》。

So it was really the wake up call. And it still took me another seven years to make that movie. And that's this movie, The Baltimoreans.

哇。这故事，我完全没想到会这样发展。你居然提到

Wow. That story, I had no idea where it was going. The fact that you brought

这就是事情本应发展的方向。我妻子当时说，你觉得她会试图和你发生关系吗？她还说，如果是萨尔玛·海耶克的话，你可以破例。

this where place was made to it was going. My wife was like, do you did you think she was gonna try and have sex with you? And she was like, because if it's Salma Hayek, you get a pass.

我是这么想的。然后你说，好吧，谢谢。但我

I did. And you're like, well, thank you. But I

她就像是排名第一的。

She's like she's like number one.

我是说

I mean

她就像是世界第一。

She's like number one in the world.

我们正在想这个。我们正在想这个。不。我是说，当你这么说的时候，我有点奇怪地低声说了这个，但是，就像，她是你的——回到这篇文章，她是你的牙医。就像这篇文章的作者说的，我把这位牙医视为某种希腊神谕。

We're thinking it. We're thinking it. No. I mean, it it's so I kind of whispered this weirdly as you were saying this, but, like, she was your to bring it back to this essay, she was your dentist. It's like the the the author of this essay says, I saw this dentist as sort of a Greek oracle.

对吧？她就是个神谕，纯粹的神谕。我觉得她能看出我当时内心有一些非常原始、深层的——我是说，我都要哭了。那一刻我身上有种未被释放的能量。而且这种能量的潜力非常强大。

Right? She was an oracle, straight up oracle. I think she could just tell that there was some very primal, deep I mean, I'm gonna cry. It just unexpressed energy in me at that moment. And that it was the potential of it was so strong.

这很疯狂，因为就在我说这些话的时候，正是我与迈克尔·斯特拉斯纳合作这部电影的原因。你看，我经历了所有那些，疫情和罢工。然后我就想，我需要拍一部无法被阻止的电影。我需要回归最初拍电影的初心，利用手头现有的素材。

And it's wild because as I'm saying that, that is why I made this movie with Michael Strassner. Is, you know, I got through all that, the pandemic and the strikes. And I was like, I need to make a movie that can't be stopped. I need to go back to my old roots of making movies. I need to use available materials.

我真的在脑海里列了一个名单，想着可以把哪些人的故事和他们本身拍成一部小电影。

And I literally went through a list of people in my mind who I could just take them and who they are and back their life into a little movie.

然后

And

这个人就是迈克尔·斯特拉斯纳。他是我认识的人里最不出名的那个。但你看，他简直就是个该死的电影明星。只是人们还没意识到是他。

it was Michael Strassner. It was the least famous person that I knew. You know? Look, he's a goddamn movie star. People just And don't know it it was him.

随着我和他交谈越多，就越觉得这部电影注定要诞生。它不断自我完善。最重要的是，我觉得是因为我挖掘出了迈克尔和莉兹身上的这种潜在能量。

And the more and then the the more that I talked to him, it was like this movie just wanted to be made. It was yes ending itself constantly. And most importantly, I think it was because I tapped into this potential energy that Michael had and also Liz.

她也是重要的一部分 而且你也

She's And a big part of it also you had And

我也有这种能量。我们都有相同的能量——我们有很多想给予的东西，却很久很久都没能释放出来，或许从未有过机会。而这就是这部电影想要传达的感觉。

that I had too. We all had the same energy, which was we have so much we wanna give and we're not We have not been able to give it. -In a long, long time, maybe ever. And that is the feeling of the movie.

说得非常美，我在想，你有没有告诉塞尔玛那一刻对你有多重要？

It's very beautifully put, and I wonder, have you told Selma how much that moment meant to you?

没有。我在考虑为她写一部电影，所以也许我会告诉她。或许有人会听到这个然后告诉她杰在谈论你。我还想说，她那样分享的方式是如此纯粹，让我明白我做自己的事对马克并无负面影响。她就像在说，你得做你自己。

No. I I'm thinking of writing a movie for her, so maybe I'll tell her. And that maybe someone will hear this and tell her Jay's talking about you I as an also just wanna say, like, her sharing of that was so pure in a way understand that me doing my thing was no negative to Mark. She was just like, you gotta do you. You just gotta do you.

结果马克成了这部电影的制片人。

And it's turned out Mark produced this movie.

马克我本来想提

Mark I was gonna bring

这部电影的事。马克是我认识的最聪明的制片人，也是最才华横溢的制片人，真的。他从宏观角度帮我塑造这部电影，这是我一个人绝对做不到的。所以我们以对方需要的方式互相支持。

it up for this movie with me. Mark is the smartest producer that I know and the most brilliant producer, really. And he helped me shape this movie in ways from a thousand foot view that I never could have done for myself. So we're supporting each other in whatever ways that the other person wants to be supported.

而不是像你形容的那样，深情地说，一个双头怪物。是的。那你们现在是什么？

And instead of being, as you described it, affectionately, a two headed monster Yes. What are you now?

我们是两个——给你来点粗俗的新时代心理学术语——爱的个体。我们是两个独立的、成熟的成年人，敢于说出自己想要什么，并寻求帮助去实现它。

We're two here's some gross new age psych talk for you. Love We're two individuated, grown ass men who are not afraid to say what we want and to ask for help in achieving it.

我反复思考过你读到的这篇随笔，不知那位牙医是否也读过——当他翻开周日报纸，看到这篇关于他的文章。某种程度上，这确实像封情书。当然不是指爱情层面，而是字里行间倾注着作者想要传递的深厚情感。整篇文章宛如献给他的颂诗，歌颂他们之间那种特殊的联结，特别是这种联结如何赋予她力量。而我想回到你始终未曾告诉塞尔玛的这个瞬间。

I've thought a lot about this essay that you've read, and I wonder if the dentist read it, you know, opened up his Sunday paper and and saw this essay about him. And and really, you know, in a in a way, it is a sort of a love letter. I don't mean romantically, but, like, there's a lot of love I feel like the author is is sending to. And the whole thing is sort of an ode to him and their and their connection in a way, but certainly the way in which that connection empowers her. And I guess I'm gonna return to you never having told Selma about this moment.

嗯。我在想，或许你可以通过这个播客节目对她说些什么。

Mhmm. And I wonder if you could speak to her now for the medium of this podcast, I guess.

你是存心想惹我哭对吧？干这行你真他妈在行。该死的。

You're trying to make me cry, aren't you? You're fucking good at your job. Goddamn it.

你会说些什么呢？

What would you say?

我会说：谢谢你2018年在悬崖顶上告诉我那些古怪的话，因为你洞悉了连我自己都未察觉的深层真相。你当时履行的使命，远比我们两人理解的更为宏大。所以感谢你当时的勇气——即便不确定我是否会因你的直言而憎恶你。或者说，那不是指责而是召唤。她真正在做的是召唤我觉醒。

I would say thank you for telling me that weird shit on top of a cliff in the year 2018 because you knew a deeper truth that I didn't even know, and you were serving a purpose that was bigger than we both even knew. So thanks for having the courage when you didn't know whether or not I was gonna hate your guts for calling me out. Or calling you in. Calling me in. That's what she was really doing.

我想我们该到此结束了。非常感谢这次对话，真的谢谢你。

I think we gotta end it there. Thank you so much for this conversation, Thank you.

这真的很有趣。

This is really fun.

《现代爱情》团队成员包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本期节目由莎拉·柯蒂斯制作，戴维斯·兰德、珍·波扬特和林恩·利维共同编辑。混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯，录音棚技术支持由麦迪·马谢洛和尼克·皮特曼提供。本集原创音乐来自阿蒙·萨霍塔、卡罗尔·萨巴罗、玛丽昂·洛萨诺、罗温·内米斯托和丹·鲍威尔。

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Davis Land, Jen Poyant, and Lynn Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we got studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Original music in this episode by Amon Sahota, Carol Sabarow, Marion Lozano, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell.

丹还创作了我们的主题音乐。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李担任现代爱情项目主编。若您想向《纽约时报》投稿散文或微型爱情故事，节目备注中附有投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢您的收听。

Dan also composed our theme music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.