杰西·巴克利先为《哈姆奈特》扮演母亲，随后在现实中成为了母亲。

美与赢得网球大满贯、赋能社区或追踪南美洲腹地的美洲豹有何关联？

What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam or empowering communities or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America?

你好。

Hi there.

我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼，欢迎回到《这不是美容播客》第二季，在这里我将揭示美如何贯穿我们生活每个角落的核心故事。

I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season two of this is not a beauty podcast where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives.

请在您喜爱的播客平台上收听由欧莱雅集团出品的《这不是美容播客》。

Listen to this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.

此刻相爱，坠入

Love now and fall in

昨夜爱河。

love last night.

爱。

Love.

但比你爱的任何事物都更强烈。

But stronger than anything you love.

以爱之名。

With a love.

爱。

Love.

而我更爱你

And I love you more

胜过一切。

than anything.

爱。

Love.

仍有

There's still

爱。

love.

爱。

Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

这里是《现代爱情》栏目。

This is modern love.

我刚看了由保罗·麦斯卡和杰西·巴克利主演的新电影《哈姆奈特》。

I just saw the new movie Hamnet starring Paul Mescal and Jesse Buckley.

他们饰演痛失独子的威廉·莎士比亚与妻子艾格尼丝。

They play William Shakespeare and his wife, Agnes, grieving the loss of their only son.

虽然电影是虚构的，但它基于真实事件，这些事件可能启发了莎士比亚创作他的戏剧《哈姆雷特》。

And while a movie is fiction, it's based on real events that might have inspired Shakespeare to write his play Hamlet.

这是一部震撼人心、精彩绝伦的电影。

This is a devastating, brilliant movie.

杰西·巴克利演得炉火纯青。

Jesse Buckley is masterful.

我认为她抢尽了风头，这就是为什么我非常兴奋能坐下来与她聊聊这个角色、她在银幕上扮演母亲的经历，以及现实中成为母亲的体验。

I think she stole the show, which is why I was so excited to sit down with her to talk about this role, her experience of playing a mother on screen, and then the experience of becoming a mother in real life.

此外，她还会朗读一篇关于母女之间牢不可破纽带的文章。

Plus, she reads an essay about the unbreakable bond between a mother and a daughter.

杰西·巴克利，欢迎来到节目。

Jesse Buckley, welcome to the show.

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

你最近刚有了宝宝。

You recently had a baby.

恭喜你。

Congratulations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

大家都好吗？

How is everyone doing?

大家都很好。

Everyone's doing great.

我是说，一切都变得不同了。

It's I mean, everything's different.

我记得怀孕时有个朋友送了我一份特别打动我的小礼物。

I remember one of my friends when I was pregnant sent me something that really resonated with me and was like such a little gift.

她说：记住你自己也是个新生命。

She said, Just remember that you are also a new thing.

一切都是崭新的，明白吗？

Everything's new, you know?

这个小生命是新的，你是新的，你们的关系是新的，你与整个世界的联系都是新的。

This little human's new, you're new, your relationship's new, your whole relationship to the world is new.

虽然很紧张，但我就是爱这种感觉。

It's intense but just I just love it.

真的太喜欢了。

Love it so much.

你也是新的

New are also

这句话既美好又富有智慧

thing is a beautiful and wise sentiment.

你能给我一个 "text": "你能给我举个具体的例子吗？哪怕是很小的例子，说明你现在作为母亲，哪些事情是新的。"

Can you give me a sort of specific way, and it can be really small, that things are new now that you're a mother.

我觉得最常被提醒的是，孩子从出生起就在以惊人的速度发现世界，吸收大量信息。

I think the thing that you get reminded of the most is a child is discovering so much so quickly when they're just born and they're incubating so much information.

但最让我感触的是那种敬畏感。

But the thing that I'm reminded of is awe.

敬畏。

Awe.

就像那种充满敬畏与发现的感受，这让我觉得...而敬畏有时会让人感到脆弱，因为一切都是那么新鲜，你对这些新发现未必能掌控。

It's like how much awe and discovery and that's why I feel And awe can sometimes feel very vulnerable because it's so new and you don't necessarily have control of this new discovery.

你只是与之共存，这是一种即时、纯粹、非常原始的状态。

You're just in relation to it And it's such a kind of immediate, pure, very primal thing.

我想随着我们年龄增长，我们会以为自己掌控一切。

And I guess as we get older, we think we have control.

是的。

Yes.

而且

And

嗯。

yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我最近在火车上看到，我是说，我也不确定。

I was on the train recently, and I saw I mean, I don't know.

我无法进入这个婴儿的大脑，但我感觉像是婴儿发现了自己有大拇指。

I'm not inside this baby's brain, but what I perceived to be the baby discovering it had a thumb.

对。

Yeah.

你看，我正盯着自己的大拇指看。

You know, I'm looking at my own thumb.

我就想，我平时根本不会想到这个拇指，这大概就是你说的那种状态。

I'm like, I don't even think about this thumb, which is sort of what you're saying.

但我看到那个宝宝盯着自己的拇指，一脸'这是什么'的表情——能和孩子共享成千上万次这样的奇妙时刻，每天都有数不清的亲子互动瞬间，这感觉一定很美妙。

But it's like, I saw this baby sort of looking at their thumb and being like, what the and that's a beautiful to to have so many thousands of moments like that with your baby, thousands, hundreds, many moments with your baby a day must be remarkable.

天啊，确实。

God, yeah.

我已经能看出她的小个性开始显现了。

I really can see her little personality start to come through.

我在她倔强的眼神里看到了生命力，希望她能像我一样热爱生活。

I see this life force in her determination and I hope she loves life as much as I do.

我迫不及待想聊聊《哈姆奈特》了。

I'm so excited to talk about Hamnet.

这个故事讲的是莎士比亚11岁儿子哈姆奈特的死亡，以及这如何启发他创作了《哈姆雷特》。

This is a story about the death of Shakespeare's 11 year old son, Hamnet, and how that inspired his play Hamlet.

这部电影的重点并不在莎士比亚身上。

The movie does not focus on Shakespeare.

影片更多是关于你的角色安雅斯，这个角色以莎士比亚的妻子为原型。

The film is more about your character, Anyas, who's based on Shakespeare's wife.

我能问你吗，当我第一次在银幕上看到她，也就是你扮演的她时，最打动我的是她的野性？

Can I ask you, like, the, know, the first thing that strikes me when we see, you know, her on screen, you on screen playing her, is her wildness?

对吧？

Right?

比如，在最初的几个场景中，她蜷缩在一棵树上。

Like, one of the first scenes she's curled up in a tree.

她与自然、与荒野有着某种神秘的联系。

She has this sort of mystical connection with nature, with the wild.

她浑身脏兮兮的。

She's dirty.

她在驯服猎鹰。

She's taming falcons.

她热爱草药。

She loves herbs.

这种野性是否与你产生共鸣？如果是的话，体现在哪些方面？

Does that wildness resonate with you and if so, in what ways?

哦不，这与我产生了深刻的共鸣。

Oh no, it deeply resonates with me.

我认为它可能以某种形式与我们所有人产生共鸣。

I think it probably resonates with us all in some shape or form.

我们已经与自身的野性、与大地和自然的关系、以及作为人类和人性的本质条件失去了联系。

We've just become disconnected from our own wildness and our own relationship to the earth and to nature and to our own condition as humans and human nature.

我在大自然中长大。

I grew up in nature.

我生长在爱尔兰南部克里郡一个叫基拉尼的地方，那里群山环抱，湖泊环绕。

I grew up in a place called Killarney in Southern Ireland in Kerry and it's surrounded by mountains and lakes.

我的人生始于父亲曾经营的一家宾馆后面的棚屋里，后来我们搬到了山脚下的一栋房子里。

Started off my life living in the back of a shed of a guesthouse that my father used to own, and then we moved up to a house at the bottom of a mountain.

我深深感受到，在一个万物自然生长的环境中长大，攀登山峰让你彻底明白自己相对于这个广阔世界只是微不足道的存在。

I very much feel like growing up in an environment where things grew because they wanted to grow and climbing mountains gave you an absolute respect that you're only a tiny, tiny thing in relation to a world that this is so big.

对我来说，这与阿格尼丝的角色特质也产生了共鸣。

To me, that also resonates with the character of Agnes.

就像我们看到她身上那种野性、原始、与生俱来的天性。

Like, we see her have this wild, primal, innate nature.

事实上，你知道，她是在一棵树里分娩的。

And in fact, you know, she she gives birth inside of a tree.

我是说，你们俩生孩子的时候想到那个场景了吗？

I mean, you just gave did you think of that scene when you two were giving birth?

你们当时是

Were you like

才没有。

Hell no.

我当时就想，好吧。

I was like, okay.

给我听好了。

Fucking get this.

滚出去。

Get out.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我觉得这个女人令人恐惧的地方在于，她对自己真正感到活着的地方毫不妥协。

I I feel like what is deemed fearful about this woman is that she is uncompromising about where she actually feels alive.

拍摄《哈姆奈特》时，我自己也极度渴望成为母亲。能通过这个角色体验她的母性、她的爱和她的失去，这在我自己成为母亲之前是一份珍贵的礼物。

I think when I was filming Hamnet, I deeply wanted to become a mother myself and it was such a gift to move through this woman and her motherhood and her love and her loss before I became a mother myself.

甚至在我怀孕期间，当我思考想要什么样的分娩方式、如何尽可能自主地做出选择时，这种思考过程本身就给了我极大的力量。

And I think even getting pregnant and throughout my pregnancy and how I was thinking about what kind of birth I wanted and how I would be autonomous in choosing that as much as I could was very empowering.

所以我想我并没有生出一棵树的根。

So I think I didn't give birth to the root of a tree.

我们澄清了这一点。

We cleared that up.

但我确实希望尽可能保持与身体的连接，能够自主选择我想要的分娩方式。

But I did want to be in my body as much as I could and be able to choose what kind of birth I wanted to have.

我是说，你提到拍摄《哈姆奈特》时你还没成为母亲。

I mean, you're bringing this up that when you were filming Hamnet, you were not a mother yet.

但你能做到——我是说，当我看你在这部电影里的表演时，你完美呈现了我们所说的那种狂野的爱，那种母性本能的温柔。

But you were able to I mean, when I watched you in this film, you so embodied that kind of wild love as we're talking about, that that, like, primal tenderness of motherhood.

当时你还没怀孕，你是从何处汲取这种情感的？

What did you draw in at that time you weren't pregnant yet?

你是凭借什么来演绎的？

What did you what did you draw on?

我想这可能是当时我没意识到的一点——我其实在寻找这种特质，但作为一个坚强女性去拥抱温柔，就像我最渴望饮用的水，直到通过这个角色体验过后，我才真正明白这一点。

I think that was one of the things that I probably didn't realize at the time that this was a thing that I was looking for, but to step into tenderness as a strong woman was something that it was like the water that I wanted to drink the most and until I kind of got to live it through this woman, I didn't realize it.

有时候，作为强者反而难以找到展现这种特质的契机。

And sometimes there's not a vehicle for that if you're strong.

温柔实际上是一种无比强大的力量。

Tenderness is such a like it's actually incredibly strong to be tender.

展现温柔同时也意味着极度的脆弱，而真正从这种柔软出发...这改变了我。

And it's also deeply vulnerable to be tender and actually to leave from a place of that softness was I mean, it's changed me.

它改变了我的一切。

It's changed my everything.

你知道，你当时完美诠释了这种温柔，这个角色。

You know, you were embodying this tenderness, this character.

就像我们之前说的，你当时自己还没成为母亲，而现在电影已经上映了。

As we said before, you were a mother yourself, and now, you know, the the film is out.

你现在有了宝宝。

You you have a baby.

我在想，当你现在以母亲的身份重温这部电影时，带着现在的认知，你觉得当时演绎到位了吗？

And I wonder as you watch this film, knowing what you know now, being a mother now, is there do you think you got it right?

比如，有没有什么你会以不同方式处理的事情？

Like, is there anything you would have done differently?

不觉得有什么我会改变的做法。我第一次看这部电影时已经怀孕八个月了。

Don't think there's anything I I would have done watched it for the first time when I was eight months pregnant.

那是什么感觉？

What was that like?

强烈得难以置信。

Incredibly intense.

我不知道，我觉得我并不意外。

I don't know, I felt like I'm not surprised.

我杀青一周后就怀孕了。

I got pregnant a week after I finished filming.

你知道，当时确实被诱导了，就是...

Had coaxed, you know, it was

嗯，你说过你想当妈妈，对吧？

Well, you said you wanted to be a mom, right?

是啊，是啊。

Yeah, yeah.

在那个完全成为母亲却又并非真实存在的状态下，怀有那种需求也相当强烈。

It was also quite intense to have that need while I was in this place of absolute mother and not be a real thing yet.

要知道，有些时刻真的让我心碎，因为我生活在这个被改变的世界上，我完全就是那个状态。

Know, there was moments where it broke my heart because I was living this altered world where I was absolutely that.

但你知道，只需要保持耐心。

But you know, just be patient.

嗯。

Yeah.

我是说，你一直在谈论我们聊过的，对你而言母性是如何彻底改变一切的。

I mean, you've been talking we've spoken about how motherhood is this kind of totalizing change for you.

我们聊过在你成为母亲之前无法触及的那种温柔。

We've spoken about the kind of tenderness you weren't able to touch before you became a mother.

在《哈姆奈特》中，我们也看到安妮娅真的爱上了她的孩子们。

In Hamnet as well, we watch as Anya's, you know, really falls in love with her children.

我是说，那是一种纯粹、美好而温柔的爱。

I mean, it's just this pure, beautiful, tender love.

而在你电影的另一端，我们还有这场大家都在讨论的场景。

And at the other end of the spectrum in your film as well, we have this scene, which everyone is talking about.

当然，它给我留下了深刻的印象。

Certainly, it left an impression on me.

说印象都算轻了。

An impression is even too light a word.

艾格尼丝竭尽全力想让她的儿子哈姆内特活下去。

Agnes does everything she can to keep Hamnet, her son, alive.

他生病了。

He is sick.

但无济于事。

It doesn't work.

他还是去世了。

He dies.

然后就是这一幕，你发出了一声呐喊，一声原始的呐喊。

And there's this scene where you do a a scream, a a primal scream.

我想知道当时你身体里的感受是怎样的。

And I guess I would love to know what that was like for you inside of your body.

其实我并不知道会发出那声呐喊。

Well, I didn't know that scream was gonna come.

剧本里并没有写这一幕。

That was not in the script.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

我们谁都没预料到这一幕会发生。

None of us knew that was going to come.

我们也没有排练过。

And we didn't rehearse it.

我们那天就是直接开拍的。

We just kind of opened up the day.

我想作为一个团队，我们就像一起踏入一条河流，却不知道这条河会将我们带向何方。

And I guess as a team, we're all going into a river, but we don't know where that river is going to take us.

那时拍摄大概进行到一半，我已经和扮演哈姆内特的小演员雅各比·杜克变得非常亲近。

I guess at that point we're probably midway through filming and I had got very close with little Jacoby Duke who plays Hamnet.

保罗和我都参与其中，我与他们所有人都建立了深厚的联系。

Paul and I were in it and I was deeply connected to all of them.

当你遇到这样的故事时，确实很难想象在那种时刻悲痛从何开始又在何处结束，以及究竟该如何表达这种情感。

And I guess when you get a story like this, it is kind of impossible to imagine where grief begins and ends with a moment like that and how to actually How do you express that?

我甚至无法完全想象那种现实的全部。

I can't even imagine the reality fully of that.

但我了解悲痛，我了解爱，我知道我对那个小男孩怀有的感情。

But it was I know grief, I know love, I know what I felt for that little boy.

我觉得在某种程度上，那声呐喊是亘古存在的。

I feel like in some ways that scream isn't it's ancient.

这就像是为所有以某种方式失去孩子的百位母亲发出的呐喊。

It's kind of like a scream for a 100 mothers who've lost their children in some way.

恕我直言，我想我只是试图在那条河流中尽可能走得更远，让自己成为传递这种情感的容器。

And with all due respect, guess I just tried to go as far in that river as I could and let that come through me as a vessel.

我不知道那是什么，但那就是它的本质。

And I don't know what it is, that's what it is.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

嘿。

Hey.

我是约翰·蔡斯。

It's John Chase.

还有玛丽·上原。

And Mari Uihara.

我们来自Wirecutter，《纽约时报》旗下的产品推荐服务。

From Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times.

玛丽，现在是送礼时节了。

Mari, it is gift giving time.

今年我们有很多很棒的礼品清单。

And we have so many great lists this year.

50美元以下有什么容易挑选的礼物吗？

What's an easy gift for someone like under $50?

在我们50美元以下的礼品清单里，我特别喜欢这套来自日本的水彩套装。

In our gifts under 50 list, I really love this watercolor set from Japan.

这些颜色真的太美了。

These beautiful, beautiful colors.

小孩和大人都可以玩。

It's something that kids can do, adults can do.

我很喜欢这个。

I love that.

有什么我爸爸会喜欢的趣味礼物吗？

What's, like, something fun that my dad is gonna enjoy?

我们在'送给爸爸的礼物'清单里推荐了这些定制款Funko潮玩。

We have these custom Funko Pops on our gifts for dads list.

你可以定制一个和你爸爸长得一样的摇头玩偶。

You can custom make a little bobblehead toy in the likeness of your dad.

它们完全不是严肃的礼物。

They're totally unserious.

就是些傻乎乎又有趣的小玩意，但人们真的很喜欢。

They're just silly and fun, and people really love them.

这也太搞笑了。

This is so hysterical.

我以前从没见过这种东西。

I had never seen these before.

它们太棒了。

They're amazing.

我得承认，我自己都有点想要一个。

I have to admit, I sort of want one myself.

查看Wirecutter为你自己和他人准备的所有礼物推荐，请访问nytimes.com/holidayguide。

Check out all of Wirecutter's gift recommendations for yourself and everyone else at nytimes.com/holidayguide.

等等。

Wait.

我们还得聊聊黄油加热器的事。

We still have to talk about the butter warmer.

你一直在谈论母性的转变力量，我们在《哈姆奈特》中确实看到了这一点，在你今天要为我们朗读的这篇现代爱情散文里也能看到。

You've been talking about, you know, the the transformational power as it were of motherhood that we certainly see in Hamnet, and and we also see in this modern love essay you're going to read for us today.

在我们深入之前，关于这个故事你有什么想说的吗？

Before we get into it, is there anything you want to say to tee up this story?

为这个故事开场。

Tee up this story.

出生可不是闹着玩的。

It's no joke being born.

这是个重大的... 这不是我想说的

It's a big old That's not what

我以为你会说别的。

I thought you were gonna say.

这是个重大的

It's a big It

出生可不是开玩笑的事。

is no joke being born.

我同意你。

I agree with you.

而那种美好与脆弱并存的状态，你知道吗，它能赋予你最意想不到的力量。

And how kind of beautiful and vulnerable and you know, it can give you the most surprising strength.

《错误的继承》维多利亚·多尔蒂著。

The Wrong Kind of Inheritance by Victoria Doherty.

我一直预感我的孩子中会有一个遭遇不幸。

I always knew something would happen to one of my children.

我从未说出口。

I never said it out loud.

我也不让自己过多去想这件事。

I didn't allow myself to dwell on it.

但这种感觉一直存在，一种模糊的迷信在我偏执的日子里萦绕不去，那种让我午夜时分出现在孩子房间、确认他们仍有呼吸的日子。

But the feeling was there, a vague superstition that visited me on my paranoid days, the kind of day that would find me in my children's room at midnight, making sure they were still breathing.

这种迷信部分源于我的血统。

Some of this superstition is in my heritage.

我来自斯拉夫民族的长系，来自曾经的捷克斯洛伐克，那里许多人相信诅咒的存在。

I'm from a long line of Slavs, from what used to be Czechoslovakia, where a lot of people believe in curses.

但我的恐惧源于一个事实：我的母亲和外婆都以毁灭性的方式失去过孩子。

But my fear is bolstered by the fact that both my mother and my mother's mother have lost children in devastating ways.

六十年前，我祖母大胆地从战后捷克斯洛伐克逃出与丈夫团聚，却被共产党阻挠，未能接回留下的三个女儿——我的母亲和两位姨妈。

Sixty years ago, my grandmother daringly escaped from postwar Czechoslovakia to join her husband, only to be foiled by the communists from reclaiming the three daughters they had left behind, my mother and two aunts.

我祖母此后二十年都未能再见到她的孩子们。

My grandmother wasn't able to see her children again for two decades.

那时，我母亲已在他们的小村庄里因流感失去了四岁的儿子维克多。

By that time, my mother had already lost her four year old son, Victor, when he died from the flu in their tiny Czechoslovak village.

数月后，她带着幸存的哥哥冒险穿越机枪威胁逃往美国，并在那里生下了我。

Months later, with my surviving brother in tow, she risked prison and the threat of machine guns to escape to The United States where she gave birth to me.

我们的传统认为诅咒总是接踵而至。

Our tradition holds that curses come in threes.

尽管地理位置的改变确实改善了我们家庭的处境，但我担心诅咒可能紧随其后。

And while the change in geography was a definite improvement for our family, I feared that the curse couldn't be far behind.

于是我等待着我的时刻到来。

So I waited my turn.

当那一刻降临时，我知道那将是圣经般宏大的灾难，堪比蝗虫群袭或大地将我整个吞噬。

When it came, I knew it would be something of biblical proportions on par with swarms of locusts or the earth swallowing me whole.

这是我无力应对的事情。

Something I wouldn't be equipped to handle.

毕竟，我既不是自由战士，也不是越境者。

After all, I was no freedom fighter or border crosser.

我只是一个来自芝加哥郊区的普通中产阶级女孩。

I was just a middle class girl from the Chicago Suburbs.

我确信，当轮到我承受家族苦难时，这种优渥的美国生活将成为我的致命弱点。

I was sure my soft American life would be my undoing once it was my turn to share some family anguish.

这已经严重影响了我和母亲的关系，在我们之间形成了一道似乎无法跨越的鸿沟。

It had already taken its toll on my relationship with my mother creating a gulf between us we couldn't seem to bridge.

我和母亲的关系似乎主要就是由尴尬的午餐组成——开始时总是充满美好的初衷，但很快就冷淡下来，常常在用餐中途以她一句'好了，我得走了'结束。

My relationship with my mother seemed to consist mostly of awkward lunches that started with a bang of best intentions, but quickly fizzled, often ending mid meal with her saying, Well, got to go.

我在想这是否与文化差异有关。

I wondered if it was a cultural thing.

小时候，我为母亲的一切感到难为情。

As a child I was embarrassed by everything about my mother.

她的口音、保守的政治观点、性感艳丽的美貌，以及她把我打扮得像伊丽莎白·泰勒和伊万娜·特朗普的平价混搭款。

Her accent, her conservative political views, her va va voom beauty and the way she dressed me like an off the rack hybrid of Elizabeth Taylor and Ivana Trump.

但问题远不止于此。

But it went deeper.

在母亲高亢的笑声和巨大的水钻胸针背后，在她埃及艳后式的妆容和大胆的动物纹裤装之下，藏着我永远无法触及的疏离与悲伤。

Behind my mother's high pitched giggle and enormous rhinestone brooches, under her Cleopatra style cosmetics and bold animal print pantsuits was a remove and sorrow I could never penetrate.

这是多年来被捷克斯洛伐克秘密警察跟踪、思念父母、被迫寄人篱下，以及最痛苦的——无法拯救我哥哥的结果。

It was a result of years of being stalked by the Czechoslovak secret police, of missing her parents, of being forced upon resentful relatives and more than anything, of not being able to save my brother.

我经常试图让她谈谈这件事。

I'd often tried to get her to talk about it.

我想了解我的兄弟是谁，更重要的是，想与她更亲近。

I wanted to know who my brother was and, more important, get closer to her.

但她总是拒绝我。

But she always shut me down.

你根本不明白，她会这样结束谈话。

You have no idea, she would say, ending the conversation.

她是对的，因为即使我自己成为了父母，我也无法、也不愿理解失去孩子的感受。

And she was right because even after becoming a parent myself, I couldn't wouldn't comprehend what it felt like to lose a child.

直到去年。

Until last year.

在我第三次怀孕过半时，我和丈夫得知宝宝尾骨上长了一个罕见的肿瘤。

A little more than halfway through my third pregnancy, my husband and I learned that our baby had a rare tumor on her tailbone.

短短几周内，肿瘤在我体内长得如此之大而明显，以至于陌生人问我是否怀的是双胞胎。

In a matter of weeks, it grew so large and distinct within me that strangers asked if I was carrying twins.

到了孕晚期，肿瘤已经长到篮球大小，并开始危及宝宝的肾脏和肝脏功能。

By my last trimester, the tumor was the size of a basketball and had begun to compromise the baby's kidney and liver functions.

约瑟芬提前七周通过剖腹产出生。

Josephine was born by cesarean section seven weeks early.

她无法自主呼吸。

She was not breathing on her own.

她被紧急送进手术室进行了八小时的手术。

She was rushed into eight hours of surgery.

我们的外科医生成功切除了肿瘤并重建了她的臀部，我们原以为这就是结局，但事实并非如此。

Our surgeon was able to remove the mass and reconstruct her bottom and we hoped that would be the end of this, But it wasn't.

结果发现，约瑟芬的肿瘤并非最初预测的良性，而是具有侵袭性的恶性肿瘤。

As it turned out, Josephine's tumor wasn't benign as originally predicted, but aggressive and cancerous.

在她出生后的几个月里，她经历了五次手术和多次化疗。

In the months following her birth, she would survive five surgeries and several rounds of chemotherapy.

诅咒降临了，而且来势汹汹。

The curse had arrived and it was a doozy.

但大地并没有将我吞噬

But the earth didn't swallow me whole.

我能坚持站立并陪伴女儿的原因很简单

I was able to keep standing and be there for my daughter for one simple reason.

因为我母亲一直支持着我

My mother was there for me.

当发现约瑟芬的肿瘤时，我打电话给母亲不是为了求助，只是想告诉她这个消息

When Josephine's tumor was discovered, I called my mother not to ask for help, but just to tell her.

她立即收拾行李，离开了芝加哥的家和工作，连夜开车赶到我们在弗吉尼亚的家。

She immediately packed, left her home and job in Chicago and drove through the night to our home in Virginia.

随着约瑟芬的肿瘤每周增大一倍，病情恶化，我母亲的探望变得更加频繁。

As Josephine's tumor doubled in size weekly and her condition worsened, my mother's visits became more frequent.

当我的背痛让我无法站在炉子前时，她帮我搅拌燕麦粥。

She helped me stir oatmeal when the pain in my back kept me from standing at the stove.

当我行走困难时，她带我的孩子们去公园。

She took my children to the park when I had a hard time walking.

她晚上会给我揉脚。

She rubbed my feet at night.

约瑟芬出生后，必须在费城儿童医院接受专家手术和治疗，那时我母亲就和我一起住在麦当劳叔叔之家。

After her birth, Josephine had to be operated on and treated by specialists at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and my mother bunked with me at the Ronald McDonald House.

当约瑟芬被转到弗吉尼亚大学医院时，我母亲搬来和我们同住，一待就是好几个月。

When Josephine was transferred to University of Virginia Hospital, my mother moved in with us and stayed for months.

她在医院守到深夜，陪伴约瑟芬，让我能照顾另外两个孩子。

She kept late nights at the hospital, staying with Josephine so that I could care for my two other children.

她用护士般专业的双手护理约瑟芬的手术疤痕，照料她的造口。

She tended to Josephine's surgical scars and cared for her ostomy with the expert hands of a nurse.

有时她会如此专注地凝视约瑟芬的双眼，让我觉得是她独自在维系我女儿的生命。

At times, she stared so fiercely into Josephine's eyes that I thought she alone was keeping my daughter alive.

她为我们做饭、打扫房子。

She cooked and cleaned our house.

她和我们一起欢笑。

She laughed with us.

她甚至还讲起我已故兄弟的故事。

She even told stories about my late brother.

有天晚上，我们发现我儿子在浴室里玩瞄准游戏，对着想象中的靶心小便，结果除了马桶哪儿都尿到了，她却说这不算什么。

One night after we caught my son playing target practice in the bathroom, aiming his urine at imaginary bull's eyes and hitting everything but the toilet, she said, that's nothing.

有一次我发现你兄弟们像开枪一样互相尿射，嘴里还喊着'砰、砰'。

One time I found your brothers shooting the pee at each other like they were shooting the gun, bang, bang.

养两个男孩，总会有各种趣事。

Having two boys, there was always something funny.

后来她告诉我，维克多去世后，她甚至无法理解太阳怎么还能照常升起。

Later, she told me that after Victor died, she couldn't even understand how the sun could be shining.

这对她来说毫无道理。

It made no sense to her.

这是她第一次用这种方式和我说话。

It was the first time she had ever spoken to me this way.

听自己说出这些话感觉很奇怪，关于约瑟芬抗争的痛苦与混乱。

It sounds strange to hear myself say it, the pain and turmoil of Josephine's battle.

但我和母亲度过了一段美好时光。

But my mother and I had a wonderful time.

我们一起做了炖牛肉，并用我们共同的第一语言捷克语交流。

We cooked goulash together and spoken our first common language, Czech.

我母亲认识了我们的朋友，朋友们都评论说我们有多么相似。

My mother got to know our friends and our friends remarked on how similar we are.

这是第一次，这种评价没有让我们警惕地互相打量，困惑而不自在。

For the first time, this observation didn't leave us looking warily at each other, perplexed and uncomfortable.

我曾经在背后用手势向朋友示意'别在意她，她有点疯'，如今这已被走在街上时想牵她手的渴望所取代。

The behind the back hand gestures I had once employed to signal to friends, don't mind her, she's a little crazy, have been replaced by a desire to hold her hand as we walk along the street.

当母亲向我的朋友们'传授人生经验'——如她所说，通过歌颂她对理查德·尼克松（她最爱的美国总统）的热爱时，我不再感到尴尬。

I'm no longer embarrassed when my mother gives my friends the lesson in the life, she puts it, by extolling her love for Richard Nixon, her favorite American president.

约瑟芬的疾病或许确实是某种诅咒的一部分，但它仍是发生在我身上最好又最坏的事。

Josephine's illness may well be part of a curse, but it is still the best, worst thing ever to happen to me.

在永远夺走我内心平静的同时，它把母亲还给了我。

While robbing me forever of my peace of mind, It has given me my mother.

我仍然太过迷信，不敢宣告胜利，但看起来我女儿会没事的。

I'm still too superstitious to declare victory, but it looks as if my daughter is going to make it.

如果是这样，约瑟芬将打破诅咒，最终让这个家庭中的母女团聚，而非制造痛苦的隔阂。

If so, Josephine will have broken the curse and at last brought a mother and her child together in her family instead of inserting a painful wedge.

几周前，我和母亲谈起我已故的哥哥。

My mother and I were talking about my late brother a few weeks ago.

那时临近维克多的生日，这对她来说向来是个艰难的时刻。

It was near Victor's birthday, which has always been a difficult time for her.

往常这个时候，她都会躲起来独自捱过这一天。

A time when she normally would have withdrawn and hid from everyone until the day passed.

但今年不同。

But not this year.

她正忙着为我儿子一块一块拼装千年隼乐高，还给我三岁女儿的脚趾甲涂上艳丽的红色。

She was too busy assembling my son's Millennium Falcon Lego brick by brick and painting my three old daughter's toenails a tardy red.

当她剪掉给约瑟芬买的玫粉色豹纹紧身衣标签时，眼眶突然湿润了。

As she cut the tags off a hot pink leopard snugly she had bought for Josephine, her eyes began to fill with tears.

四十年来，我心里一直有个空洞，她轻声说道。

For forty years, I had a hole in my heart, she whispered.

而现在那个空洞被填满了。

And now that hole is filled.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是安德鲁·罗斯·索金，DealBook的创始人。

This is Andrew Ross Sorkin, the founder of DealBook.

每年我都在纽约市举办的DealBook峰会上现场采访一些政界、文化界和商界最具影响力的领袖人物。

Every year, I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the DealBook Summit, a live event in New York City.

在本年度的播客中，您将听到我与加文·纽瑟姆、Palantir和Anthropic的CEO，以及查理·柯克遗孀埃里卡·柯克的未剪辑对话。

On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk.

您可以在任何收听播客的平台订阅DealBook峰会节目。

Listen to DealBook Summit wherever you get your podcasts.

非常感谢你的朗读，杰西。

Thank you so much for that reading, Jesse.

趁你还记忆犹新时，接下来有什么计划？

While it's still fresh for you, what's coming up?

哪些部分引起了你的共鸣？

What resonates?

太多了。

So much.

最近我也经常想起我的母亲，还有这种世代相传的古老诅咒，以及要摆脱这种诅咒有多么困难——就像需要某种人生变故才能将你唤醒，让你重新找回自我，在诅咒之外找到自己的声音。

I've been thinking about my mother quite a lot too recently and this curse, this kind of ancient curse that gets handed down through generations and how hard it is to dislodge yourself from that curse, like something has to interrupt your life in some way to kind of wake you up and wake you up into yourself again and find your voice outside of the curse.

我最近确实亲身经历了母亲为我们家族破除诅咒的过程。

And I definitely have experienced my mother crack a curse for me and for us as a family recently.

看着她作为一名女性如此勇敢无畏，这让她成为了一位更加了不起、更有人情味的母亲。

And to see her be so brave and courageous as a woman has made her an even more incredible and human mother.

是啊。

Yeah.

你说你母亲破除了诅咒，具体是指什么？

When you say she broke a curse, your mother, what do you mean by that?

我最初意识到讲故事的力量和表达需求，是看到母亲在教堂唱歌时的场景。

My first memory of seeing the effect of telling a story and the need to express something was seeing my mother sing in church.

她既是竖琴手又是歌手，这个女人总是对世界张开双臂，渴望很多却不明白，她的人生选择本可以比她被教导允许的要多得多。

And she's a harpist and a singer and she is a woman who's always had her two hands up at the world like she wanted so much and didn't realize that choose she so much more of her life than what she was being taught she was allowed to choose for herself.

她生命中的大部分时间都蜷缩在角落。

She spent a lot of the time kind of in the corner of her life.

这个如此渴望拥抱世界的女人，却有大半生都活在角落，只体验着只言片语的人生。

This woman who was so hungry to be in the world spent a lot of her life in the corner living a little bit of it or being heard in a little bit of it.

后来我看到她在教堂歌唱，那场景宛如生死攸关——她必须从自己的角落向世界倾注些什么。

Then I'd see her sing in church and it was was life and death, like her need to and put something out into the world like from her corner.

接着我目睹了神奇的一幕：当她鼓起勇气用歌声分享真实的自我时，听众的防御系统瞬间土崩瓦解。

And I'd see this magical thing happen where by her courage to share her voice and her whole self in song, she would basically pulverize the defense system in the people that were listening around her.

我看到那些老男人泪流满面地走近，在她歌声饱满到连最恐惧被触动的人都无法抗拒的瞬间。

I'd see these old men with tears streaming down their face come I guess in the moments that she sank she was so full that it couldn't help but touch even the people that were most afraid to be touched or feel something.

我知道她作为女人、母亲和妻子的漫长岁月里，从未觉得自己有能力如此完整地活出自我。

And I know for many years in her life as a woman and as a mother and as a wife, she didn't really feel like she had the capacity to live that fully in herself.

直到几年前，她重返大学，重新培训成为音乐心理治疗师——她从很年轻时就开始攒钱，存够1250英镑去接受高等教育。

And until a few years ago, she went back to university and retrained as a music psychotherapist having saved twelve fifty since she was very young to go and get a third level education.

我的父母已经分开了。

My parents are no longer together.

她现在拥有了自己的房子。

She now owns her own home.

她现在从事新生儿和老年人的临终关怀工作。

She now works in palliative care in neonatal but also for elderly people.

她如今六十多岁了，却刚刚为自己开启了全新的人生，这是非常非常勇敢的举动。

She's in her 60s now and she's just started a whole life for herself and it's a very, very brave thing to do.

她的工作如此美好——因为在她生命的大部分时间里，人们都不曾倾听她的声音。

And it's so beautiful what she does in her work because for much of her life, people didn't listen to her.

现在她面对的，是那些生命垂危之人、失去沟通能力之人，或是病重的早产婴儿。

Now people who are at the edge of their life or haven't got the capacity to communicate or tiny, tiny babies that are very sick.

她正在唤醒这些人内心的某些东西，并在解放自我、全然投入生活的过程中，与那些即将消逝的事物建立了深刻的亲密联系。

She's waking something up in these people and has found in freeing herself and being as full in her life this wild intimacy with things that might be just about to be lost.

她是个了不起的、了不起的女人。

She's amazing, amazing woman.

她叫玛丽娜。

Her name's Marina.

玛丽娜，我刚想说——杰西，谢谢你分享这些。

Marina, I was just gonna I mean, Jesse, thank you for sharing that.

我...我有幸看着你讲述这个故事时的表情，当你谈起母亲时，那种笑容、那种光芒从你身上散发出来，真的很美。

I'm I'm I have the real privilege of watching your face as you tell this story and the smile, the the light that is is coming from you as you talk about your mom is is really beautiful.

我正想问，她叫什么名字？

And I was gonna ask what's her name?

玛丽娜。

Marina.

这让我不禁思考，你知道，这篇文章是一篇跨代际的文章。

And it makes me wonder, you know, this essay is a multigenerational essay.

它不仅仅是关于作者和她母亲的故事。

It's not just about the author and her mom.

这也关乎作者和她的女儿。

It's also about the author and and her daughter.

我想延续这个话题，在目睹你母亲展现这种自由之后，

And I I guess I just wonder to continue that thread, like, having watched your mom embody this kind of freedom.

你希望随着女儿逐渐长大，以及你自己年龄增长，她能在你身上看到什么？

Like, what do you hope your daughter sees in you as she gets older and as you get older as well?

哦，天啊。

Oh, God.

我希望传承给她的——当然她会有自己的人生轨迹也应该如此——是我们只有一次生命，生活中总会有让我们怀疑、恐惧或觉得缩小自我会更安全的事物。

I think the thing I can hope to impart to her and I'm sure she's going to go on her whole own trajectory and she should is we have one life and there's always going to be things in our life that are going to make us doubt or be afraid or feel like it would be safer to be smaller in some way.

我看到这个初生的生命如此崭新又如此完整，尚未被某种理想或社会期待的投射所玷污。

And I see this little life that's so new but so full and so on kind of tarnished by an idea or projection of what we're supposed to be.

如果说我能像母亲影响我那样传递给她什么，那就是希望她明白：你的所有部分都恰到好处。

I just hope that if I can pass anything onto her in the way that my mother has passed on to me is that all the parts of you are not too much.

这个世界需要完整的你。

The world needs all of you.