让梅尔·罗宾斯分享她维系健康关系的5个秘诀

这是你需要解读的头条。

It's your headline to unpack.

这是你每周都要跟进的一个故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是你要破解的Wordle字谜。这是你要追踪的团队。这是你用来探索的三十六小时。

It's your Wordle to work through. It's your team to track. It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是你要掌握的腌料配方。

It's your marinade to master.

这是你要理清的观点。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是你要升级的床垫。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

这是你了解圣母大学其他需求的日子。《纽约时报》。这是你要理解的世界。更多信息请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。现在和未来都充满爱。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame. The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld. Love now and tomorrow.

坠入爱河

Fall in love

昨夜的爱意。比你所爱的任何事物都强烈。为了爱。爱。而我爱你胜过一切。

last night. Is stronger than anything you love. For the love. Love. And I love you more than anything.

爱。这里有爱。爱。这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这里是《现代爱情》。

Love. There's to love. Love. From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love.

每周，我们都在探讨关于爱、信任以及维系人际关系的种种复杂课题。今天的嘉宾认为，保持连接的关键在于接受关系中可控与不可控的部分。比如，你在意的人没回信息？随他们去。让他们选择不选择你。

Every week, we explore all the messiness of trying to love, trust, and stay connected to other people. Our guest today thinks a big part of staying connected is accepting what you can and can't control in a relationship. For example, someone you're into doesn't text you back? Let them. Let them not choose you.

让他们在约会前最后一刻取消。让他们忘记问候你的近况。让他们忘记你的生日。随他们去。我说的当然是梅尔·罗宾斯。

Let them cancel last minute on your date. Let them forget to ask how you're doing. Let them forget your birthday. Let them. I'm talking, of course, about Mel Robbins.

她是畅销书作家、演讲者和播客主持人，其新作一经出版便登上畅销榜。这本书名为《放任理论》，并非教人放弃关系，而是让人们在无需追逐、修补或掌控的情况下，看清对方的真实模样。本期节目中，梅尔将分享这个理念如何改变了她与丈夫、子女的关系——即便这些变化仅发生在书籍出版后这一年左右的时间里。

She's a bestselling author, speaker, and podcast host, and her latest book was an instant bestseller. It's called the let them theory. It's not about giving up in relationships. It's about letting people show you who they are without chasing or fixing or trying to manage them. Today on the show, Mel talks about how this idea has changed her own marriage and her relationship with her kids, even just in the past year or so since she wrote the book.

她还将朗读一篇现代爱情随笔，讲述一位女性终于领悟：真爱并非来自紧抓不放，而是源于放手——即使身处数百英尺的高空。请继续收听。梅尔·罗宾斯，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

She also reads a modern love essay about a woman who finally learns that real love doesn't come from holding on tighter. It comes from letting go, even when you're hundreds of feet up in the air. Stay with us. Mel Robbins, welcome to Modern Love.

谢谢邀请。非常期待与您的对话。

Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited to talk to you.

我们非常高兴您能来。我本人特别期待亲眼见到这副眼镜——梅尔，它们可是有自己的粉丝团呢。

We are so happy you're here. I am personally so excited to see these glasses in person. Mel, they have a fan base of their own. They really do.

我深爱我的眼镜，因为我的视力糟糕透顶。这可能涉及过度分享，但这就是我的风格。我无法佩戴隐形眼镜，眼窝深且眼球极小，曾有两名医生尝试为我配镜片。

Well, I love my glasses because I have horrendous vision. And this is gonna go to TMI No. To start, but that's sort of how I roll. I am not a candidate for contact lenses. I have really small eyeballs that are deep set, and I've had two different doctors try to fit me.

当试图取出镜片时，你朝鼻侧看然后去摘，它们会直接滑到我眼球后方。

And they they literally when you try to take them out and you look toward your nose and then you go to grab them, they go into the back of my eye.

天啊！这简直是我的终极噩梦——虽然解剖学上不可能，但想到有东西卡在眼睛里往脑部钻...太可怕了。

Oh my god. That is my true nightmare. Something getting caught in the eye going back into the brain even though that's not how the body works. That's my true nightmare.

两位医生当时都惊呼'从没见过这种情况'，最后不得不用工具从眼角勾出来。所以...我只能永远与眼镜为伴了。

I have had two doctors literally go, I've never had this happen. Oh my god. I'm so sorry. And then they have to take something and pull it from the corner. Oh oh, it has been so that you're stuck with the glasses, basically.

好的，好的，现在我明白了。这并不好。对于正在听的观众，你能描述一下你的眼镜吗？

Okay. Okay. Now I understand. It's not okay. For people that are listening, can you describe your glasses?

你会如何形容这件配饰？

How would you describe this accessory?

想象一下六十年代的太空工程师。对吧？它们就是那种黑色的，不性感，纯粹实用主义、书呆子气的眼镜。

Think nineteen sixties space engineer. Right? They're the they're like the black, not sexy, just utilitarian, nerdy glasses.

当你戴上它们时，是否感觉像是变成了另一个Mel，还是说依然是原来的Mel，只是看得更清楚了——无论是字面上还是比喻意义上？

Did it make you feel like a different Mel when you put them on, or was it the same Mel you just saw yourself more clearly, literally, figuratively?

这是个很好的问题。我一直以来...当我...你知道，当你年近五十，意识到自己不适合做那种手术，只能永远依赖眼镜，再也不能用老花镜蒙混过关时，我一开始戴的是非常轻薄的眼镜。我想我当时在否认这个事实。所以我总是戴那些感觉非常无力的眼镜，你知道，非常细的金属框，试图让它们不那么显眼。而当她直接把这副眼镜戴在我脸上时，我就觉得，这感觉对了。

That's a great question. I had always when I when I you know, when you're in your late forties and you realize that you're not a candidate for that surgery, and you are going to be stuck with glasses, and you can't cheat it with the readers anymore, I started out with very thin glasses. I was in denial, I think, that this was gonna be a thing. And so I had always sort of put glasses on that felt very limp, you know, very wiry, trying not to be there. And when she just put them on my face, I was like, this just feels right.

有点像对的感情关系。你可以勉强，Anna，但当你遇到对的人，一切就会恰到好处。

Sorta like the right relationship. You can force it, Anna, But when you are with the right person, something just fits.

好的。你在书中有个场景很好地解释了这个理论。这个例子也很应景，因为现在是夏天，人们都在度假。你写到有一次你发现朋友们一起出去旅行了。

Alright. So you have this scene in the book that I think explains your theory very well. It's also very apt because it's summer. People are going on vacations. You write about this one time where you realized your friends were on a trip together.

你没有被邀请。能说说那次经历吗？

You weren't invited to it. Tell me about that experience.

糟透了。我是说，你有没有过...谁没有过这样的经历：你躺在沙发上刷着社交媒体，突然停在一个账号上，开始翻看照片轮播，然后你想：等等，等等，等等。他们...他们...他们去海滩度假了？嗯。

It sucks. I mean, have you ever like, who hasn't had the experience where you're on the couch just scrolling through social media, and all of a sudden, you stop on an account, and you start flipping through the carousel, and you're like, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. They they they went away on a beach trip? Mhmm.

他们...他们去听演唱会了？他们去打高尔夫旅行了？

They they went away and saw a concert? They went away on a golf trip?

等等，告诉我这件事发生的具体经过。你当时是坐在沙发上吗？是在刷Instagram吗？

And wait. This happened tell me tell me exactly your experience. You'd like were you on the couch? Were you flipping through Instagram?

具体是怎么发生的呢？我当时就坐在沙发上，说实话，我看到一张集体照，其中一个人的穿搭特别棒。于是我用拇指和食指做了个放大的手势，想看清楚那条裙子。当我放大时，我突然发现——我认识照片里的每个人。等等，他们是去旅行了吗？因为这背景看起来不像我们小区。

Like, how did it happen to exactly was I was just on the couch, and, honestly, I I I saw this group photo, and somebody's outfit was terrific. So I took my pointer finger and thumb and sorta did that motion to expand to try to figure out what the dress looked like. And as I expanded in, I'm like, I know everybody in this photo. Wait a minute, did they go away? Because that doesn't look like our neighborhood.

在那些时刻，首先，感到刺痛是心理健康的正常反应。因为人当然希望被接纳，被排除在外确实会受伤。而在我生命前54年里，每当我发现自己被排除在外，或有人在背后议论我，或有人做了伤害我的事时，我不知道如何用健康的方式处理。我要么开始贬低自己说'你真是个失败者'，

And in those moments, first of all, it's a mentally healthy response to feel that sting. Because of course you wanna be included. It hurts when you're not included. And for the first fifty four years of my life, in those moments when I found out that I wasn't included, or somebody was gossiping behind my back, or somebody did something that hurt my feelings, I didn't know how to process that in a way that was healthy. I either started trashing myself and saying, You're a loser.

'没人喜欢你'之类的，要么就开始攻击别人。

Nobody likes you. Blah, Or you start trashing the other people.

然后

And

最终结果是，所有这些负面情绪既把你和想联系的人隔开，也让你失去了当下本可拥有的力量。这就是'随他们去'理论的核心。很多人不明白，'随他们去'理论其实是总结古老智慧的现代工具。它融合了斯多葛主义、全然接纳、超脱理论和佛教思想，适用于现代生活中感到受伤、不堪重负或焦虑的时刻。我突然意识到——等等，你可以让别人去旅行啊。

what ends up happening is all of that negative emotion separates you both from people that you want to be connected with, and it also separates you from the power that you have in that moment. And that's what the Let Them Theory is about. A lot of people don't understand that the Let Them Theory is a modern tool that summarizes ancient wisdom. It's how you apply stoicism, and radical acceptance, and detachment theory, and Buddhism in a moment in modern life where you feel hurt, or overwhelmed, or worried. I realized, wait a minute, you can let other people go away.

随他们去。对我来说，当时坐在沙发上的心理活动是这样的：'让那些碧池去旅行吧'，带着一种'老娘不在乎'的态度。因为当你说'随他们去'——随他们施工，随今天超市排长队，随我妈妈心情不好——通常都会带着种居高临下的心态。完全正确。而这种优越感能帮你从那些通常让你难受的情绪中抽离出来。

Let them. And for me, sitting on the couch, Anna, the tone was like this, Let those bitches go away, everybody. You know, attitude, because when you say, let them, let them do construction, let them have a long line today at the grocery store, let my mother be in a bad mood, you typically feel a little attitude like, well, I'm superior to you. Totally. And that superiority helps you detach from the emotions that normally make you feel terrible.

详细说说你所谓的

Tell tell me what you mean by

有效方法。

that works.

对。对。对。那种优越感

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The superiority

确实如此。是的。没错。因为通常，当你的朋友们撇下你独自出游，你感到被排斥时，就会觉得自己像个失败者。是的。

is true. Yeah. Yes. Well, because typically, in a situation where your friends have gone away without you, and you feel excluded, you feel like the loser. Yes.

所以在看到那一刻，你会觉得他们高高在上，而我是个不被接纳的失败者。

And so, you, in that moment of seeing it, feel like they're above me, and I'm some loser that's not included.

我明白你的意思。

I see what you're saying.

对。当你说'随他们去'时，会发生件奇妙的事。因为'随他们去'理论关乎权力与控制——什么是你能掌控的，什么是你无能为力的。所以当你说'随他们去'，就像在暗示：这超出了我的控制范围。

Yeah. When you say let them, something fascinating happens. Because the let them theory is about power and control. What's in your power, and what's in your control, and what's not. And so when you say let them, it's like a cue to say, this is beyond my control.

我意识到这件事我无法掌控。既然如此，何必浪费时间和精力为无力改变的事折磨自己？因为你的力量不在于管理他人，而在于这个理论的第二部分——'让我来'。于是在那一刻我说：好吧，让我提醒自己。

I am recognizing that this is beyond my control. Therefore, if it's beyond my control, why would I spend time and energy torturing myself over something I have no power to change? Because your power is not in managing other people. Your power is in the second part of the theory where you say, Let me. And so, in that moment, said, Well, let me remind myself.

首先，他们有权去旅行。其次，我要对自己的友谊负责。我上次主动邀约是什么时候？上次请他们来家里又是何时？

First of all, they're allowed to go away. Second, I'm responsible for my friendships. When's the last time I invited them anywhere? Right. When's the last time I had them over?

凭什么指望别人邀请我？如果我想被接纳，或许该多主动策划活动——但不是那种阴阳怪气地说'哟，看到你们出去玩了'。而是大方表示：我两周后要办晚宴。

Why do I expect to be invited? Like, maybe if I wanna be included, I should actually be making plans more, and not in that creepy, passive aggressive way where you're like, hey, saw y'all went away. You know? Like, not like that. But say, I'm throwing a dinner party in two weeks.

很想见见大家。或者：这周想约散步，周六有空吗？这些才是你能掌控的主动行为。最后第三件你能控制的，是如何应对涌起的情绪。

I'd love to see you guys. Or, I I would love to go for a walk this week. You know, are you around on Saturday? And so that's within your control, what you do or don't do. And then the final thing is is the third thing that's in your control is how you respond to the emotions that rise up.

这些情绪是合理的。因被忽视而受伤恰恰说明你是个正常人。但你可以选择是否让这些正常情绪击垮自己。

Because the emotions are valid. It is a sign that you're normal if you're hurt if somebody doesn't include you. But you get to choose whether or not those normal emotions run you over

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者是否任由它们起起落落，然后你选择如何回应。

Or whether or not you let them rise and fall, and then you choose how to respond.

这是不是就是那个...我还在琢磨你用的那个词——优越感。因为通常这个词带有负面意味对吧？但我正在努力理解，你说的并不是那种凌驾他人之上的优越感，或者负面的解读。

Is that where the is that where the I'm, like, still thinking about this word you used, which is superiority. Because, generally, there's, like, a negative valence to that. Right? But I'm I'm I'm trying to understand. Yours is not so much like a superiority over others or, like, a negative interpretation of it.

你能再详细解释下'let them理论'的这个部分吗？

Can you explain that piece of the let them theory a bit more?

对。这是对你自身情绪反应的掌控感。

Yeah. Yeah. It's superiority over your own emotional response to what's happening.

我就是这个意思。

That's what I was Yeah.

你看，我们本质上都是八岁小孩。你每天遇到的每个成年人，不过是大号躯壳里的八岁孩童。没人天生懂得管理情绪——这是需要主动学习并练习的技能。毕竟人们真的很烦人，生活真的很糟心。但这不意味着你必须让他人的观点、情绪、期待和信仰耗尽你的时间和精力。

See, we're basically eight year old children. Every single adult that you meet and that you deal with every day is an eight year old in a big body. None of us know how to manage our emotions because that is a skill that you have to want to learn, and you have to practice it. Because people are really annoying, and life is really stressful. But that doesn't mean you have to allow other people's opinions, moods, expectations, and beliefs to drain your time and energy.

当你说'let me'时，你就重新夺回了主动权。

And when you then say, let me, you then take the power back.

没错。

Right.

你暗示自己：让我选择这事是否值得焦虑，让我选择是否参与这场对话，让我决定要不要花七小时刷新闻然后感到恐慌无力。或者，我要收回所有这些力量，去专注推动我在这个世界/家庭/社区中担忧的那些改变。

And you cue yourself to say, let me choose if this is worth worrying about. Let me choose if this is a conversation I want to engage in. Let me choose whether or not I'm gonna spend seven hours reading the headlines and feeling freaked out and powerless. Yeah. Or if I'm gonna take all that power back and go focus on making the changes happen that I wanna see that I'm worried about in this world or in my family or in my community.

当我意识到自己曾不知不觉把多少力量拱手让给他人观点、行为、粗鲁举止和情绪时，这记警钟彻底唤醒了我。

And it was a huge wake up call for me to realize how much power I had been unknowingly giving to other people's opinions, to their behavior, to their rudeness, to their moods, to all that stuff.

我有点讨厌这个词，但作为一个真正的控制狂，要放松我对控制的执念、那种想要掌控一切的冲动，真的非常困难，对吧？我想知道，你是怎么看待的？你也是类似的控制狂吗？如果是的话——

I kinda hate this word, but as, like, a true control freak, it is deeply tough, right, to, like, loosen the vice grip of my idea of control, my impulse to control. I guess I wonder, like, where do you land? Are you a similar kinda control freak? And if so kinda

答案显而易见。我简直不敢相信你还需要问——我——

know the answer. I can't believe you even have to ask I I

我是说，总得抛出这个问题。你觉得你这种控制欲从何而来？

I mean You know, you gotta pose the question. Where do you think that impulse comes from in you?

我知道它的根源。顺便说，每个人都是控制狂，区别只在于我们对外表现的程度。好消息是——

Well, I know where it comes from. And by the way, everybody's a control freak. The range is how we express it on the outside. Yeah. And here's the good news.

‘随他们去’理论不是要强迫你停止控制事物，而是教会你什么是可控的。这样你能更高效地分配时间和精力，专注于真正能掌控的事，而不是耗费心力试图改变和管理他人。没错，我是个控制狂，还嫁了个佛教徒——这特别烦人，因为他总是那么淡定。

The let them theory isn't going to force you to stop controlling things. The let them theory teaches you what you can control. So, makes you way more effective at how you use your time and energy, and how you direct it at what's actually in your control, instead of burning through your time and energy trying to change and manage other people. And so, yes, I'm a control freak. I'm also married to a Buddhist, which is super annoying because he's, like, very chill.

我一直在研究斯多葛哲学，试着松开对生活方向盘的紧握。但归根结底，人类天生就有根深蒂固的控制需求，这永远不会消失。安娜，如果你做了让我非常不安的事，你的行为就会让我感到失控。

And I have been studying stoicism. I've been trying to stop gripping the wheel of life. Mhmm. But the bottom line is is that every human being has a fundamental hardwired need for control, which is not going anywhere. Anna, if you do something that really upsets me, your behavior now makes me feel out of control.

我过去54年犯的错误（这是本能反应）就是：当安娜学习不够自觉、没及时回我消息、工作不够努力、饮食不合我意——

Right. The mistake that I made for fifty four years, and this is automatic wiring, is because your behavior Anna's not motivated enough in school. Anna's not texting me back when I think she should. Anna's not working hard enough at her job. Anna's not eating what I think she should eat.

或是穿错衣服时，她的行为困扰了我，让我感到失控。这时我和所有人一样会铸成大错——越界去激励、改变、施压或让你内疚，或者给出你根本不在意的意见。

Yeah. Anna's wearing the wrong thing to this, that, and the other thing. Anna's behavior is now bothering me, so I feel out of control. And then I and everybody makes a fatal mistake. I actually cross a line, and I try to motivate or change or pressure or guilt you, or I tell you my opinion, and guess what?

你和我一样需要掌控自己。这意味着当我开始指手画脚，或强加你不关心的意见时，我非但没激励你，反而激发了抗拒——因为你会为自主权而反抗。安娜，这就是所有关系问题的根源。

You have the same need to be in control of yourself as I have to be in control of myself. And that means the second I start telling you what to do, or I've got an opinion that you don't care about, I'm not motivating you. I'm actually creating resistance to change because you're now gonna fight to be in control of yourself. Totally. Therein lies, Anna, the source of all problems in every relationship.

症结就在于此：我们没有接纳和爱护彼此，而是在控制彼此。那不是爱，是评判。

Right there. We're not accepting each other and loving each other. We're controlling each other. And that's not love. That's judgment.

我想知道你是否也能分享一个让你感到完全失控的故事。

I wonder if you could share too a story where you felt very out of control.

当然可以。我可以举两个很好的例子。第一个是关于我们20岁的儿子。当他还在初中阶段，即将升入高中时——天哪，我真希望当时就懂得‘放任他们理论’。因为他当时真的非常挣扎。

Of course. I can give you two great examples. So the first one is our son who's 20 now. When he was in kinda middle school to, like, right before high school god, I wish I had the Let them Theory. Because he was really struggling.

我们刚发现他患有阅读障碍、书写障碍和多动症，他从公立学校转到了一所针对语言学习障碍的特殊学校，后来又转到一所小型私立学校读完七八年级。他过得很痛苦，那个可怜的孩子孤独极了。这一切彻底熄灭了他的活力。

We had just figured out that he had dyslexia and dysgraphia and ADHD, and he bounced from the public school to a school for language based learning disabilities. Then he bounced to a small private school for seventh and eighth grade. He was miserable. That poor kid was so lonely. All of this had just taken the spark right out of him.

等他上了高中——你知道这是家长们常犯的大错——就是自以为最懂。孩子们清楚自己在学校表现不好，不需要你像克莱兹代尔马那样咚咚冲上楼，就因为他们玩电子游戏而大吼大叫。通过大量研究构建‘放任他们理论’时我意识到：每个人都渴望成功。

And he gets to high school, and, you know, this is a huge mistake that parents make. And it's thinking you know best. Your kids know when they're not doing well in school. They don't need you Clydesdale ing up the stairs and yelling at them because they're on the video games. What I've come to realize, and this comes from a lot of the research in building the case for the Let Them Theory, is that everybody wants to thrive.

如果你的孩子学业不佳，绝不是因为他们不想学好，也不是缺乏动力。要么是缺少技能，要么更糟——他们已灰心丧气认为自己无法做得更好。作为家长我犯的大错就是以为能强迫别人改变、强迫别人在乎，或是通过说些显而易见的道理来激励人。就像很多家长一样，高中初期他放学回家时，我会听见他在楼上和朋友玩《堡垒之夜》之类的游戏。

Like, if your kids are not doing well in school, it's not because they don't want to do well. It's not a lack of motivation. It is either skills that are missing, or worse, it's a sense of discouragement that they won't be able to do any better. And so a huge mistake that I made as a parent is thinking that you can force someone else to change, or force someone else to care, or motivate somebody by being captain obvious. So, just like a lot of parents, he would get home from school in early high school, and I would hear him upstairs talking to his friends playing Fortnite or whatever it was that they were playing.

我就会想：他在楼上干什么呢？然后跺着脚冲上楼，猛地推开门说‘兄弟你得学习了’——难道他不知道吗？结果为了让他进步，我施加了压力，这恰恰是他最不需要的。因为请想想：知道自己表现最差有多难受？

And I'd be like, what is he doing up there? And I would then stomp up the stairs, and I would fly open the door, and I'd be like, you know, dude, you gotta be stud. You don't think he knows So that in order to get better now, I'm applying pressure, which is the exact opposite of what he needs. Because here's what I want you to consider. Do you know how hard it is to know that you're doing the worst of anybody?

你知道这种压力有多大吗？如果他们能打个响指就改变现状，难道不会这样做吗？当然会。那些为健康或体重困扰的朋友家人也是如此。

Do you know how much pressure that is? Don't you think that if they could snap their fingers and change this, they would? Of course they would. Same thing with your friends or your family members that are struggling with their health or their weight.

没错。

Right.

你以为他们不知道该去散步吗？结果你拿着新运动鞋进来，摆出励志的架势。简直就像在说‘哇，我从没想过散步呢’

You don't think they know that they need to go for a walk? And so now here, you come in with the new sneakers and trying to be all, like, motivational. It just is like, okay. Yeah. I've never thought about going for a walk.

谢谢建议。

Thanks for the suggestion.

对。这会把人推开。是的。

Right. It pushes someone away. Yeah.

是啊。是啊。没错。没错。人们需要的是你陪伴在他们身边。

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. What people need is for you to be with them.

所以，当你说，让他玩电子游戏吧，让他做那些对他来说真正轻松的事。这就是他这么做的原因。然后你采用——这源自斯图尔特·阿布隆医生针对成年子女的方法，但对成年人同样有效——即‘与他们同在’的方式。你走上楼，展开一场不同的对话。

And so, when you say, let them, let him play the video games, Let him do the thing that actually comes easy for him. That's why he's doing it. And then you use, this comes from Doctor. Stuart Ablon with adult kids, but it works with adults too, is you take this with them approach. You go upstairs and you have a different conversation.

你说，嘿，真的很抱歉。我一直给你施加了很多压力。我有太多主观意见。总是被我唠叨一定很烦吧。我为此深感歉意。

You say, Hey, I'm really sorry. I've been putting a lot of pressure on you. I have a lot of opinions. That must be a pain to constantly have me nagging you. I'm really sorry about that.

知道吗，我都没好好问过你，你对学校的感觉如何？即使对方回答‘哦，我不知道’，你也在激发现实状况与他们理想状态之间的冲突。

You know, I haven't bothered to ask you, how do you feel about school? And even if somebody's like, oh, I don't know, you're stirring up this conflict between what's actually happening and what they'd like to be happening.

这种信念让我想到的是，我相信你。对吧？我相信——是的。在这个案例中，你的儿子是一个有思想、有意识、在努力并渴望进步的人。这确实让我想起你今天选择朗读的现代版《拉维萨》，那是个关于放手控制、关于信任的极其高风险、激动人心且极端的版本。

And that belief is what's coming to mind is, like, I trust you. Right? I trust Yes. That you are, you know, in this case with your son, a person who is thinking and aware and trying and wants to get better. And it really does remind me of the modern LaVessa you chose to read today, which is an incredibly high stakes, exciting, extreme sort of version of of letting go of control, of trust.

我...我想在进入正题前，考虑到我们讨论的所有内容，我很想知道是什么特别吸引你选择这篇散文？

I I guess I wanna you know, before we get to it, I would love to know, considering everything we've been talking about, what drew you to this essay specifically?

安娜，你说这些事情很复杂很有趣，因为我喜欢‘让他们理论’的原因之一就是它让事情变得非常简单。它会彻底颠覆你对信任的认知。因为控制这个话题其实很简单，当你意识到这一点时，你会非常清楚自己的力量所在与所不在，也会明白自己把力量交给了哪些人。所以我选择这篇题为《放手才能前行》的散文，是因为我觉得它如此引起共鸣，如此诚实，充满了这些微妙的时刻——我认为任何人在面对真正渴望的事物时都可能遇到，以及你如何因为感觉失去控制而阻止自己全力追求。

It's interesting, Anna, that you said these things are complicated because one of the reasons why I love the Let Them Theory is it makes things very simple. It's gonna turn what you think trust is on its head. And because the topic of control is actually very simple, and when you recognize that, it's very clear where your power is and where it isn't, and it's also very clear where you have handed power to other people. And so one of the reasons why I picked this particular essay entitled You Have to Let Go to Move On is because I felt that this essay was so relatable, it was so honest, and it was full of these subtle moments that I think anybody can find themselves in when it comes to the things that you really want in life, and how you stop yourself from fully going after it because it feels like you don't have control.

稍事休息后，梅尔·罗宾斯将朗读贾斯敏·多纳休的散文《放手才能前行》，并分享她关于放手寻爱的建议。请继续收听。

After the break, Mel Robbins reads the essay, you have to let go to move on by Jasmine Donahue, and she gives her own advice on letting go to find love. Stay with us.

《放手才能前行》，贾斯敏·多纳休著。我的约会资料照片——沙漠景观中一个模糊的遥远身影——充分暗示了我的矛盾心理。我既渴望，又抗拒。47岁，离婚近二十年，女儿已成年，我珍视独处的时光。但有时，当我听到阁楼里老鼠的窸窣声，就会想起读过的一则新闻：离我住处不远，有个男人被发现在公寓里去世，尸体部分被老鼠啃食。

You Have to Let Go to Move On, by Jasmine Donahue. My dating profile picture a blurry, distant figure in a desert landscape suggested a great deal about my ambivalence. I wanted, and I didn't want. At 47, divorced for nearly two decades and with my daughter's grown, I cherished my solitude. But sometimes, when I heard the mice rustling in the attic, I thought of a newspaper story I'd read about a man not far from where I lived who had been found dead in his flat, partially eaten by rats.

有时，我厌倦了自己的陪伴。偶尔，我会感到孤独。我已忘记触碰他人或被触碰的感觉。当我在黑暗中握住自己的手以提醒自己时，我的手显得小而冰凉，仿佛属于别人。我渴望联系，但不愿付出它似乎总是索取的代价。

Sometimes, I tired of my own company. Occasionally, I was lonely. I had forgotten what it felt like to touch someone or to be touched. When I held my own hand in the dark to remind myself, my hand seemed small and cool, as if it belonged to someone else. I wanted connection, but I didn't want what it always seemed to cost.

那些将我变成他们生活唯一焦点的男人——'你是唯一值得活下去的理由'；那些告诉我该要什么不该要什么，而非表达自己需求的男人；那些以关心安全为名行控制胁迫之实的男人，他们的言语从'你不应该'变成'你不能'，同时堵在门口阻止我离开。如果我选择的头像暗示了我的矛盾心理，那么选择爱丁堡作为定位地点则彻底表明了这点——爱丁堡与我居住的威尔士乡村隔着两道国境线和七小时火车车程。

The men who turned me into the sole focus of their lives, you're the only thing worth living for. The men who told me what I wanted and didn't want rather than what they wanted or didn't want. The men whose expression of concern for my safety revealed itself to be a mass for control and coercion, whose words moved from you shouldn't to you can't as they stood blocking the door, preventing me from leaving. If the profile picture I chose suggested my ambivalence, then the fact that I chose Edinburgh for my location drove it home. Edinburgh lies two national borders and a seven hour train journey from where I live in a rural part of Wales.

当时我有个女儿在爱丁堡大学读书，我常去探望。我正考虑移居苏格兰，突然意识到在决定搬迁前先结识当地人会是个好主意。实际上，在350英里外尝试网络约会比在家附近安全得多——这能让我试探水温而不必真正冒险。即便网络约会只是我那位寡居姑妈在18世纪谷仓舞会上做媒的现代版本，这种与浪漫所需的 spontaneity 和意外完全相悖的人为安排，反而让我觉得安全。

At the time, one of my daughters was studying at Edinburgh University, and I visited regularly. I was flirting with the idea of moving to Scotland, and it struck me that it might be a good idea to get to know some people there before making the decision to move. In reality, trying out online dating at a distance of three fifty miles seemed like a good deal safer than trying it out near home. Doing so could let me test the water without really taking a risk. And even if online dating was only a modern version of my widowed aunt matchmaking at an eighteenth century barn dancer ball, it seems so artificial, so antithetical to the spontaneity and accident that creates romance, that I thought it would be safe.

总有些典型角色：无视我照片和矛盾暗示的圆润会计师（声称我美丽却不知我长相）；自称驻伊拉克的美国海军陆战队员（全用大写字母，迟早会发诈骗汇款信息）；令人不安的纽约银行家（迫切要见面，只要我回复就立即飞过来）。最后我点开了一个航海男人的资料。

There were the usual suspects, who ignored my photo and what it said about my ambivalence the plump accountant who told me I was beautiful despite not knowing what I looked like The purported U. S. Marine in Iraq, who used all caps and would no doubt be sending me some scammer message about needing me to transfer money. A slightly alarming New York banker wanted me to meet, had to meet me, and would get on a plane to come meet me the minute I replied. I looked at the profile of a man at sea.

他保持着安全距离。还有个面相和善擅长劈柴的登山者，住在五小时车程外的卡莱尔。我虽会使斧头却恐高，所以他也显得安全。我没理会会计师、海军陆战队员和银行家，而那个航海男人也没回复我。

He seemed safely distant. And there was a climber with a kind face who was good at chopping wood. He lived in Carlisle, a five hour drive away. I'm fair with an axe, but terrified of heights, so he seemed safe, too. I didn't answer the accountant, nor the marine, the banker, and the man at sea didn't reply to me.

但登山者回复了。初秋白昼渐短的日子里，我们开始定期通信。这种往来让我想起笔友时代——我们分享日常生活琐碎，却绝口不提见面。我问他登山的事，其实根本不想知道答案。

But the climber did. Soon, we were writing to each other, regularly, across the shortening days of early autumn. Our correspondence reminded me of having a pen pal. We told each other little details of our day to day lives, of things we had seen or done, but we never mentioned meeting. I asked him about climbing, but I really didn't want to know.

我在楼梯顶端都会眩晕，而他悬在百米峭壁的照片让我心悸。即便见面，我知道最多就是在咖啡馆喝杯咖啡，或者如他偏好的去酒馆喝杯鲜啤。十个月后，当我真正站在岩壁底部时，脑海中只剩下恐惧——余光所及尽是虚无的噩梦。

I experienced vertigo at the top of a flight of stairs, and the pictures of him inching along a crag above a 100 foot drop gave me palpitations. Even if we were to meet, I knew we wouldn't get beyond that first coffee in a cafe, or his preference, a pint of real ale in a pub. Ten months later, I'm stepping up to the foot of a crag. Everything has left my mind but fear. In my peripheral vision, a nightmare of nothingness.

脚下黑色岩板陡降至藤壶密布的破碎石柱堤道。我强压恐惧攀登穆尔岛海蚀柱，中途却失控卡住——双脚卡在垂直裂缝中。左上方有个踏脚点，但左脚被右脚压住无法移动，而右脚同样动弹不得。

Beneath me, a black slab descends steeply to a limpet crusted causeway of broken columns. I tamp down the fear, but halfway up the sea stack of the coast of Mull, I lose control of it, and I get stuck. My feet are wedged into a vertical crack. There's a foothold to my left, bit higher up, but my left foot is pinned beneath my right, and I can't move. I can't move my right foot either.

无处可落脚。我既不能转移重心解放左脚，也无法后退——后方就是虚空。我彻底被困住了，大脑戏弄着我说这是死局：就算右脚能在下方找到支点，左脚除了塞回这道裂缝还能放哪儿？

There's nowhere else to place it. I can't shift my weight, so I might free my left foot, and I can't step back down because that way is the void, the nothingness. I'm stuck, and I cannot see a way that I can ever move. My brain toys with me, tells me it's insoluble. Even supposing my right foot finds a foothold beneath me, where can I put my left foot but back in this crack?

双脚在裂缝里徒劳扭动，反而卡得更紧。'抓住你了，'他从上方视线之外喊道，'你很安全。'虽然绳索系着我，但他的话语如同无意义的噪音。我的心跳快得发狂。

My feet do a little dance in the crack, but only end up wedged in more tightly. I've got you, he calls down from above, out of sight. You're safe. He has me secured by a rope, but his words just sound like meaningless noise. My heart races.

我无法呼吸。只感到一片混乱的灾难感。他稍微收紧绳索，让我能感觉到他在另一端抓着我。但我僵住了，惊慌失措。双手痉挛般紧抓岩石，左腿开始抽筋。

I can't breathe. I have only the jangled sense of catastrophe. He takes in the rope a little, so that I can feel he's there at the other end holding me. But I'm frozen, panicking. My hands grip the rock convulsively, and my left leg begins to cramp.

然而，不知怎的，想起分娩时的经历，我控制住了呼吸。心跳从疯狂奔驰减缓为快速而疼痛的搏动。我让上方那个虚无的声音闭嘴，别再制造噪音。我大声发誓，若能脱困，这辈子绝不再做这种事。我晃动双脚，将右脚在岩缝中垫高些，终于把左脚从下方抽了出来。

Somehow, though, remembering being in labor, I get my breathing under control. My heart slows from its mad race to a fast, painful pounding. I tell the disembodied voice above me to shut up, stop making noise. I swear out loud that if I ever get out of this, I will never, ever do it again. I jiggle my feet, lodging my right foot a little higher in the crack, and I manage to slip my left foot out from underneath it.

接着我胡乱将左脚塞进去，在滑溜中挣扎着把右脚撤回，垫在左脚下方。左脚虽能活动了，但现在必须向上猛冲才能踩到左侧的落脚点——这意味着要松开我死命抓住的支点。我不知道扑上去时能抓住上方什么。我不敢松手。但我知道必须松手才能继续前进。

Then I jam it in somehow, scabbling and slipping as I bring my right foot back down and in under the left. My left foot is free to move, but now I have to lunge upward to get it onto the foothold to the left, and that means letting go of what I'm gripping so tightly. I don't know what I'll be able to grab hold of higher up when I lunge. I can't let go. And I know I have to let go to be able to move on.

这念头既像深刻的真理，又像我有过的最陈腐多余的想法。我是说，这又不是什么个人成长研讨会。我愤怒地责备自己。这根本是场灾难。但最终，尽管可能无物可抓，我还是纵身跃入了未知。

And this seems both a profound truth and at the same time, the most trite and redundant thought I've ever had. I mean, this isn't some personal growth seminar. I think enraged at myself. This is a disaster. And then, because in the end I have to, though I might have nothing to hold onto, I launch myself into the unknown.

奇迹般，左手摸到一块凹凸的突起，接着右手也找到支点，突然间一切皆有可能。后续动作自有其逻辑，仿佛手脚支点会随需要显现，在认知之前就已了然于心。以某种精妙的节奏，我从一个支点攀向另一个。抵达岩缘，登顶，他就在那里——那个始终保障我安全的人，他的声音一直支撑着我，即便我曾让他闭嘴，好让自己慢慢寻路前行。“信任”，我躺在宽阔平坦的岩石上，因内啡肽释放而语无伦次地说着胡话。

Miraculously, my left hand finds a great lumpy protrusion, and then there's a hold for my right, and suddenly, everything is possible. The rest has its own logic, almost as though the handholds and footholds appear as I need them, a known thing before it's known. And with a kind of exquisite economy, I'm lifting myself from one hold to the next. And I'm at the lip, and at the top, and there he is, the man who, all along, has been keeping me safe, whose voice has been carrying me, even though I told him to shut up while I took the time to find my way and keep going. Trust, I say, gabbling in the release of endorphins and in of delirium lying on my back on the wide, flat rock.

信任。一切都关乎信任。我注视着他。这个不惧恐惧的男人，不需要阻止我冒险的人。我看着他将保护我的绳索卷起，无奈地摇头——绳子落进了黏糊糊的鸟粪水坑里。

Trust. It's all about trust. I watch him. This man who's not afraid of being afraid, who does not need to keep me from taking risks. I watch him coiling the rope with which he kept me safe, shaking his head resignedly over the slimy puddle of guano he landed it in.

我惊觉，他也同样信任着我。他率先攀登时，将安全托付给几乎不懂技术的我。“接下来去哪儿？”战胜恐惧的我亢奋地问道。此刻他凝视我的眼神里，混杂着骄傲、对我喜悦的欣喜、温暖的眷恋，以及超越言语的深刻相知。

And I realized that, remarkably, he trusted me too. He placed his trust in me to keep him safe as he climbed first, even though I hardly knew what I was doing. Where next? I say, euphoric at having overcome fear. And now, he's looking at me with something like pride and delight in my delight and warm affection and deep recognition of me that has nothing to do with words.

于是我想，原来这就是爱。

And I think, so this is what love is.

哇。感觉你完全沉浸在那篇文章里了，我都不忍心打断。读完这篇你有什么即时反应？

Wow. I mean, I really feel like you were I don't wanna take you too far. Like, you were so in the world of that essay. What are your immediate reactions to having read that piece?

这篇文章有四点令我震撼：首先是我们如何抗拒内心最渴望的事物。就像她描述自己如何竭力阻碍遇见真爱的过程。

There are kind of four things that really struck me about that essay, and the first is how much we resist the thing that we want most. You know, as she was going through the details of how hard she was making it to meet somebody.

那张照片，对。就是她标记自己位置的那张，那里她...嗯。

The picture, yeah. The putting her location, that where she yeah. Mhmm.

全部都是。她还用了‘矛盾心理’这个词。如果你对能否得到某样东西心存矛盾，那么在生活和爱情中实现愿望就会非常困难。

All of it. And she used the word ambivalence. And it's very hard to get what you want in life and in love if you're ambivalent about whether or not you're gonna get it.

你是说，我们必须相信自己会得到？

You mean, like, we must believe we will?

意思是，何必给自己增加难度呢？

Meaning, why make it harder for yourself?

为什么

Why

要抱着手臂往后靠，摆出一副‘你得证明给我看’的姿态。我认为生活中更轻松的方式是张开双臂向前倾，不仅追求你想要的事物，相信自己的判断力去分辨谁适合你，而且当你向世界张开双臂时，我相信会产生一种能量的交换——世界也会向你张开双臂。让我深有感触的是，如果你长期独处、经历过心碎或动荡的感情，对‘重新敞开心扉’感到紧张是完全正常且可以理解的。

cross your arms and lean back and kind of say, you gotta prove it to me. I think it's easier in life if you open your arms and lean in, and you not only go for the things that you want, trusting in your capacity to understand who's right and who's wrong for you, but also there is this, I believe, energetic exchange that happens when you open your arms to the world. I believe it opens its arms back to you. And so, one of the things that really struck me, and I think it's very, very relatable, is that if you've been alone for a long time, or if you've been through heartbreak, or you had a very turbulent relationship, it is normal, and explainable, and understandable to be nervous about, quote, putting yourself back out there.

完全同意。是的。

Totally. Yeah.

但如果你真心想遇到共度余生的人，除此之外还有什么选择呢？

But if you really do want to meet somebody to share a life with, what option do you have?

我明白你的意思。那种半心半意的状态，如果你真心寻求一段关系、一个伴侣，很可能无法如愿。对。对。

I hear what you're saying. It's like the, the sort of half in, half out is not going to likely will not get you what you want if you are truly looking for a connection, a partner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

没错。因为你永远在把主动权交给对方。‘我害怕受伤，所以让你掌握所有权力，然后坐在这里评估和防备你是否会伤害我’。我认为‘敞开心扉’迎接他人进入你生活有完全不同的方式。这引出了文章中第二个鲜明主题——关于控制。

Correct. Because you're always going to be handing the other person power. I'm worried about getting hurt, so I'm going to let you have all the power, and then I'm going to sit here and assess and be managing whether or not you're gonna hurt me. And I think there's a very different way to go about, quote, putting yourself out there and being open to somebody entering your life. And this brings me to the second theme that was very strong in this essay, which is about control.

我认为在当今世界，当谈到爱情时，人们赋予了应用程序太多权力，而且有一种强烈的叙事说人们在应用上表现得多么令人毛骨悚然和卑劣。而我要告诉你的是。

I think in today's world, when it comes to love, there is so much power that people give to the apps, and there's a huge narrative about how creepy and scummy people are on the apps. And here's what I'm here to tell you.

告诉我吧，因为我需要帮助。

Tell me because I need help.

你不能只责怪这些应用。

You can't just blame the apps.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

这些应用只是认识人的一种方式，而约会的目的不是为了找到那个人。约会的目的是让你更了解自己。你喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。你的偏见是什么，不是什么。而实际情况是，人们通过上应用来试探性地接触，然后他们超级沮丧，因为他们不喜欢应用上介绍给他们的人。

The apps are a way to meet people, and the purpose of dating is not to find the one. The purpose of dating is for you to learn more about yourself. What you like, what you don't like. What your biases are, what they're not. And one of the things that happens is people kind of put their toe in the water by getting on the apps, and then they're super frustrated because the people that they're introduced to on the apps, they don't like.

对。但如果你看看你能控制什么，你能控制的是你如何度过每一天。如果你真的想认识某人，当你排队时，你会和别人交谈吗？当你和朋友去餐厅或酒吧时，你是等着别人像在应用上那样接近你吗？还是你看到有趣的人就主动和他们交谈？

Right. But if you look at what's in your control, what's in your control is how you go through your day. If you really wanna meet somebody, when you stand in a line, are you talking to people? When you go out with your friends to a restaurant or a bar, are you waiting for other people to approach you as if it's an app? Or are you seeing somebody who's interesting and you're talking to them?

到处都是人。你周围都是人。你的同事认识的人也是人。但如果你不愿意认识别人，也不相信自己有能力知道何时该主动何时该退后，那么你只会通过应用来缩小范围，然后因为匹配到的50个人中只有两个有趣而感到沮丧。其实，匹配50个人就是为了遇到那两个。

There are people all over the place. There are people all around you. There are people that your colleagues know. But if you're not open to meeting somebody, and trusting in your ability to know when to lean in and when to lean out, then you're going to narrow the field by only going on the apps, and then being up upset by the fact that of the 50 people you get matched with, only two people are interesting. Well, guess You were matched with 50 to meet the two.

我知道你是在用泛指的方式说‘你’，但我真的感觉你是在说‘你’即安娜，而我需要听这些。所以这真的很好，知道这些很好。我是说，这真的很有趣。就像我们经常听到的那些事情，你知道的，朋友间的闲聊之类的。

I know you're kind of doing like the universal you, but I do genuinely feel like you're saying you as in Anna, and I need to hear this. So that is really it's good to it's good to know. I mean, it it yeah. It it's it's really interesting. It's like the the things very often we hear, you know, anecdotally, whatever with my friends.

我们当然听过，你知道，当节目里有使用应用的人时，他们会说，是啊，这种失控感。就像这个应用给我推的都是我不喜欢的人。

We certainly hear, you know, when we've had people on the show who are on apps, like, yeah, this lack of control. It's like this app is feeding me people that I don't like.

不喜欢一秒。是啊。但问题是，安娜。是啊。你看过你的筛选条件吗？

Don't like a second. Yeah. Here's the thing, though, Anna. Yeah. Have you looked at your filters?

是啊。不。每个人都喜欢坐下来抱怨那些给你推送人的应用，但你真的看过你的筛选条件吗？因为我敢保证，你拼凑出了一个根本不存在的人。你会说，好吧，我要这么高的，只能在五英里以内。

Yeah. No. Everybody loves to sit back and complain about the apps feeding you people, but have you actually looked at your filters? Because I guarantee you, you Frankensteined a person that doesn't exist. You're like, okay, I'll take it this tall, only within five miles.

他们必须赚这么多钱。他们绝对不能抽烟。他们必须是这样那样还有其他的条件。

They gotta make this kind of money. They can't possibly smoke. They have to be like this and that and the other thing.

是啊。

Yeah.

而你把自己局限在同样偏颇的视角里，寻找着那个根本不存在、却人人都在找的完美对象。没错。如果你去掉那些筛选条件，任何身高都行。

And you have so narrowed to the same biased point of view the exact person that doesn't exist that everybody else is looking for. Yeah. If you were to get rid of the filters, any height.

是啊。这确实很难抉择。

Yeah. That's a tough one.

25英里外，50英里外。

25 miles away, 50 miles away.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果那个能与你共筑美好人生的真爱住在50英里外，你难道不想见见他吗？

If the love of your life that was gonna build an incredible life with you lived 50 miles away, wouldn't you wanna meet him?

当然想。我是说，就像那篇文章里写的，这些人相隔几百英里。虽然她最终匹配到或开始聊天的那个攀岩者确实住得更近。但就像你说的，她看到了他的资料，看到他擅长劈柴。

Definitely. I mean, this is what the essay the essay is like these people were, what, you know, like, hundreds of miles away. Although this person that she ultimately did match with or or started talking to, the climber, did live closer to home. But even what you're saying, like, she saw his profile. She saw that he was good at chopping wood.

那点很棒，但她恐高。所以攀岩这个爱好几乎让他出局了。而那篇文章做了件很有意思的事——

That was awesome, but she's terrified of heights. So it's like the climbing aspect almost disqualified him. And and the essay does a really interesting thing where

它跳了。这让他失去资格了吗？是的。还是她自己放弃了资格？

it jumps. Did it disqualify him? Yeah. Or did she disqualify herself?

没错。砰的一声。

Yeah. Boom.

看，这就是我认为另一个有问题的地方——我们会因为害怕不被选择而自我否定。爱情的美丽之处在于，你可以选择爱谁以及如何去爱。寻找伴侣的过程不是说要去约会，因为你来到这个世界不是为了成为谁的妻子或丈夫。你拥有广阔美好的人生，而你要遇见的那个人将是与你分享这段人生的人。所以你必须挑剔。找到对的人就是一个不断说不的过程。

See, that's the other thing that I think that is problematic is that we disqualify ourselves because we are afraid that somebody's not gonna choose us. I mean, the beautiful thing about love is you get to choose who and how you love, and the process of finding somebody, not to date, because you're not put on this earth to be somebody's wife or husband. You have a big, beautiful life, and the person that you're going to meet is somebody that you are going to share that life with. So you gotta be choosy. The process of finding the right person for you is a process of saying no.

你撒的网越广，就能越快通过拒绝找到那个对的人。关于爱情最可悲的是，我们对它该是什么样子有着过于固执的想象

And the wider the net that you put out, the faster you're going to have no's to get to a yes. And the thing that is really sad about love is that we have such a vision for what it should be

没错。

Right.

以至于我们关闭了它可能成为的其他可能。我想说的另一点是，我们追逐的往往是那种一见钟情的火花与激情。我个人更偏爱慢热的情感。我常对女儿和儿子说，那个对的人——我不认为你命中注定只有一个人，而是有很多人可能成为你的归宿——他们应该让你感到像家一样。要知道，生活已经够艰难了。

That we close off the possibility of what it could be. And the other piece that I'll say about this is that, you know, I think the thing that we chase is that sizzle and that spark and that love at first sight. I personally prefer the slow burn. I say to my daughters and my son all the time, the person that is your person, and I don't believe there's only one person for you, I think there's lots of people that can be your person, they need to feel like home base. You know, life is hard enough.

容颜会老去。人们会发福，会身材走样，会患癌症，会掉头发。各种事情都会发生在你身上。但如果你选对了人，唯一不变的是：当你结束一天回到家推开门时，与他们相处就像终于能舒一口气。这才是你该寻找的。

Looks fade. People get fat, people get out of shape, people get cancer, people lose their hair. All kinds of things are gonna happen to you. But the one thing that won't change if you're with the right person is that when you get home at the end of the day and you walk in the door, being with them feels like an exhale. That's what you're looking for.

这个故事最打动我的是，她差点因为'不能和登山者在一起'的固执想法错过这段缘分。正因她说了'好'并遇见他，才看到他为她开启了多少可能性，让她重新认识自己，改变了她的人生——因为这个做着曾被她认为绝不可能之事的人。所以我想对重新开始约会的人说：紧张很正常，在找到合适的人之前会遇到很多青蛙也很正常。关键是要学会拒绝，同时敞开心扉接触各式各样的人。

And what I love about this story is that she almost opted out of this because she was saying, I can't be with somebody who climbs. Because she said yes and met him, look at what he has opened up in terms of what's possible for her, and what she's learning about herself, and how her life is changing, because this is a person who does something that she never thought she could do. And so, you know, my main thing that I would say, if you're somebody who's putting yourself back out there, is it is normal to be nervous. It is normal to see all of the frogs before you find somebody who's a fit. It's all about saying no and opening yourself up to meeting all different kinds of people.

你要不断告诉自己：万一成功了呢？这其实是种信任的练习。当你能确信可以信任自己时，你就不会陷入危险。你不会受伤，因为掌控权和力量都在你手中——你能分辨哪些关系值得继续，哪些应该结束。最后要记住：想要被爱和拥有爱，你必须先允许爱进入你的生命。

And you need to keep saying to yourself, what if it works out? That's an act of trust, by the way. And when you recognize you can trust yourself, then you're not in danger. You're not gonna get hurt because you know that your control and the power is in you and your capacity to recognize situations that are worth continuing and situations that are worth ending. And the final thing is, in order to be loved and to have love in your life, you have to allow love in.

在我看来，这个登山故事正是如此。她系着绳索很安全，却仍在恐慌，对保证她安全的男人发脾气，抗拒现有的支持与爱。我们都这样——多少次你环抱双臂？多少次你举起防御的剑？

And that's, to me, what the climbing story represents. She is roped up, she is safe, she is panicking, she's bitching at the guy who's telling her that she's safe, resisting the support and love that's there. And we all do that. How often do you cross your arms? How often do you hold up the sword?

你多久会抗拒一次？学会如何接纳它，会为你的生活创造更多爱。

How often do you block it? Learning how to allow it in will create more love in your life.

我想知道，比如，你生活中有什么例子吗？你看，我们正试图在文章的世界里定位这个问题，但把它转移到你的经历中，你能分享一段关系中的某个时刻吗？那时你必须信任自己。你能分享一个类似发生在你身上的事情吗？

I guess I wonder, like, is there an example from your life? You know, we're we're sort of locating this within the world of the essay, but to to move it to your experience, like, can you share a moment from a relationship where you had this kind of experience where you had to trust yourself? Can you share something that has happened to you like this?

嗯，我发现自己就处在这样的境地，因为我丈夫克里斯是个狂热的户外运动爱好者。尽管我在西密歇根长大，我们露营、钓鱼，做了很多有趣的事情。但克里斯的玩法完全不同。我是说，他住在落基山脉，建造冰屋等等。所以我和他在一起时经历过多次这样的情况，无论是在阿拉斯加钓鲑鱼，当他为帝王鲑鱼洄游抛竿时，我却握着一把几乎不会用的步枪，因为灰熊正下山觅食，我在想，我到底把自己卷入了什么境地？是的。

Well, I found myself in that exact position because my husband, Chris, is a huge outdoorsman. And even though I grew up in Western Michigan, and we camped, and we fished, and did lots of fun things. Like, Chris did it on a whole different level. I mean, he's, like, living in the Rocky Mountains and building igloos, and all so I have found myself in multiple situations with him, whether it's salmon fishing in Alaska, and while he's casting for the King Salmon Run, I'm holding a freaking rifle that I barely know how to use because the grizzlies are coming down to feed, and I'm thinking, what on earth have I gotten myself into? Yeah.

所以在任何美好的关系中，我希望你能遇到这样的时刻，做一些你从未想过可能的事情，尝试你从未做过的事情，因为这就是与某人在一起的美丽之处。

And so in any great relationship, I hope you find yourself in these moments where you're doing something you never thought possible, where you are trying things that you've never done before, because that's the beauty of being with somebody.

你是怎么学会这样做的？是像这位山边的女士那样突然顿悟，还是对你来说更是一个渐进的过程？

How did you learn to do that? Was there a moment like this woman on the side of the mountain, or was it more gradual for you?

我认为1000%是渐进的，因为我把决定权交给了别人。哦，你辜负了我的信任，现在你得重新赢得我的信任，诸如此类。还有在关系中假装，为了让对方喜欢你。我是那种在恋爱中会完全变成环境所需的人，就像海葵一样随环境变色。如果你喜欢摇滚，我就喜欢摇滚。

I think it's one I think it was 1000% gradual because I handed it over to everybody else. Oh, you're gonna break my trust, now you gotta earn my trust back, blah, blah, blah. And all of the kind of pretending in a relationship so that the person likes you. I was the kind of person that when I was in a relationship, I literally became like a human anemone that would change into the environment that I was in. If you liked rock music, I liked rock music.

乡村音乐？哦，我是乡村女孩。感恩而死乐队？死忠粉。哦，你喜欢说唱？

Country? Oh, I'm a country girl. Oh, Grateful Dead? Deadhead all the way. Oh, you like rap?

我也是。斯卡音乐？哦，我来了。是的，走吧。所以我觉得，对我来说，我希望能早点拥有“让他们去”理论。

Me too. Ska? Oh, I'm there. Yes, let's go. And so, I feel that, for me, I wish I had had the Let Them Theory a long time ago.

因为在约会和爱情中，最重要的事情之一是清楚地认识到对方就是他们自己，他们的行为明确告诉你他们对你的感觉，以及你是否是优先考虑的对象。这本来可以帮助我更清楚地让人们做自己，让人们喜欢或不喜欢我，而不是越界试图仅仅靠近某人。如果我总是和他们在一起，他们就是对的。或者与幻想谈恋爱

Because one of the most important things in dating and love is being very clear that the other person is who they are, and their behavior tells you exactly how they feel about you, and whether or not you're a priority. And it would've helped me very clearly to let people be who they are, let people like me or not like me, and not cross that line and try to just be near somebody. If I hang out with them all the time, they're yes. Or be in a relationship with the fantasy

嗯。

Mhmm.

而非承认我所处的现实。

Instead of recognizing the reality that I'm in.

你知道，当我听你谈论这篇关于你自身经历的文章，关于那个'随他们去'的理论时，我感到如此振奋，想要去信任自己，去随他们去，也随我去。但我也知道，当我离开这个房间，取消手机静音，所有通知涌进来的时候，我依然会感受到那种想要控制或塑造的强烈冲动，你知道的，这将会很艰难。你有没有发现遵循自己的建议很困难？当然有。你呢？

You know, when I listen to you talk about this essay about your own experience about the let them theory, I feel so, like, reared up to go, to trust myself, to let them, to let me. But I also know that, like, when I get out of this room and I unsilence my phone and all the notifications pour in whatever, I'm gonna still feel that deep impulse to control or to mold or to you know, it's gonna be tough. Do you ever find it difficult to follow your own advice? Of course. You do?

总是这样。天啊。就像，我发明了一个起床的技巧。我有起床困难。但是，仅仅因为我找到了帮助自己的捷径，并不意味着我不是人类。

Always. Oh my god. It's like, I've I invented a trick for getting out of bed. I have trouble getting out of bed. Like, but just because I've found shortcuts that help me doesn't mean I'm not human.

我认为在约会时最大的错误和最危险的状态是，你知道的，当你刚开始投入其中，把自己展现出来，见了无数人，然后你会想，好吧，得说很多'不'才能到达'是'。不，不，不，不，不，不，好吧，是。当你有几个'是'，你们在玩闹，然后突然间你意识到，你知道的，这不仅仅是一个'是'，这是一个'绝对是'。这时候事情就变得可怕了。因为现在你想让它从随意的事情变成更持久、更稳固的关系，这让你感觉更有掌控感。

And I think the biggest mistake and the most dangerous place to be in when you're dating is, you know, when you're first in it, and you're putting yourself out there, and you're seeing a million people, and you're like, okay, gotta say a lot of noes to get to the yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, Okay, yes. When you have a few yeses, and you're fooling around, and then all of a sudden you realize, you know, this isn't just a yes, this is a hell yes. That's when things get scary. Because now you want it to go from something casual to something that is more permanent and more solid, and that makes you feel a little more in control.

这是你必须第一次信任自己的时刻。因为一旦你到达那个你知道自己想要更多的点，你想给它贴上标签，你想成为专一的，你想同居，你想订婚，你想要孩子，你想结婚，无论那个'更多'是什么，你欠自己一个真正去要求它的机会。而且有一个重要的方式来要求这个。你去找那个你一直说'是'的人，基本上说，我真的觉得你很棒。我喜欢和你在一起。

And this is the first moment where you have to trust yourself. Because the second you get to the point where you know you want more, you wanna put a label on it, you wanna be exclusive, you wanna move in together, you wanna get engaged, you wanna have kids, you wanna get married, whatever that more is, you owe it to yourself to actually ask for it. And there's an important way to ask for this. You go to the person that you've been a yes with, and you basically say, I really think you're amazing. I love hanging out with you.

我愿意一直和你在一起。我已经到了那个我了解自己的地步。我真的想成为专一的，或者我想成为你的女朋友，或者我准备好订婚了，或者我需要知道你是否也想要孩子。你可能不想要这些，但我只是了解自己。因为如果你不想要和我一样的东西，那么我不想再在这上面花费更多的时间和精力。

I would hang out with you all the time. And I've gotten to the point where I just know myself. I really wanna be exclusive, or I wanna be your girlfriend, or I'm ready to get engaged, or I need to know if you wanna have kids too. And you may not want these things, but I just know myself. Because if you don't want the same thing that I want, then I don't wanna spend any more time and energy in this.

这真有趣。这几乎像是'让我'在这个例子中是第一步，然后'随他们'是下一步。

That's so interesting. It's almost like let me is first in this instance, and then let them is next.

是的。因为你没有说，你一直在误导我，我们需要得到那个。你没有把它放在他们身上。你尊重自己的时间和精力。这就是信任和控制出现的地方，是你知道当我到达那个我需要专一或者需要进入下一阶段的时候，和不想那样的人在一起是浪费时间。

Yes. Because you're not saying, you've been leading me on, and we need to get that. You're not putting it It's not about them. You respect your own time and energy. That's where the trust and the control comes in, is you knowing when I get to the point where I need to be exclusive or it needs to go to the next thing, it is a waste of time to spend time with somebody who doesn't want that.

梅尔，我真的要结束这个话题了。最后一个是

Mel, I'll really close with this. What is the last

哦，我想问你一件事。等等。稍等。

Oh, I wanna ask you one thing. Hold on. Second.

好的。是的。

Okay. Yes.

让我问你这个问题。好的。害怕这个。知道嗯。不。

Let me ask you this. Okay. Scared about it. Knew Mhmm. No.

如果你知道你的真爱就在九个月后出现，那个你将与之共筑美好生活的人，那个你每天回家见到就能松一口气的人。嗯。是的。如果你知道九个月后你会遇见那个人，你会如何度过这九个月？

If you knew the love of your life was literally nine months away, like the person that you're gonna build a beautiful life with, the person that you're gonna walk in the door at the end of the day and just exhale. Mhmm. Yeah. If you knew you were gonna bump into that person nine months from now, how would you spend the next nine months?

是啊。你真的在问我这个吗？是的。我是说，这很有趣。我的治疗师问过我完全一样的问题。

Yeah. Are you really asking me that? Yeah. I mean, it's funny. My therapist asked me literally the exact same question.

我想我会感觉轻松很多。就像，压力会小很多。我真的很努力在感受那种状态，尽管没人能向我保证那会发生，这很难。

I think I would just feel so much lighter. Like, there would be such a pressure off. And I'm really trying to channel that, even though no one can guarantee me that, which is tough.

谁说的？

Who says?

我不知道。我们无法保证真的吗？为什么不呢？

I don't know. We can't guarantee Really? Why not?

为什么不呢？

Why not?

我不知道。因为那会在九个月内发生吗？

I don't know. Because will that happen in nine months?

为什么你喜欢——这就是信仰的用武之地。是的。如果我张开双臂，信任自己，以让我快乐的方式生活，做真实的自己，不强求不适合的事物，不纠结何时会发生这一切，而是张开双臂，相信并继续我的生活，你现在就在改变能量，专注于你能控制的事情，仅这个改变——是的——实际上就会吸引对的人。

Why do you like like, this is where the faith comes in. Yeah. That if I were to open up my arms, and I were to trust myself, and I were to go about my life in a way that makes me happy, and I feel like myself, and I'm not trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, and I'm not gripped about when this is happening and everything else, but I just open up my arms, and I believe, and I go about my life, you are now shifting the energy, and you're focusing on what you can control, and that shift alone Yeah. Will actually pull in the right person.

你说得对。张开双臂，如你所说，面向世界。听着，梅尔。我们可以九个月后再谈，我会告诉你我是否找到了那个人。

You're right. Opening the arms, as you said, to the world. Listen, Mel. We can circle back in nine months, and I'll let you know if I found, that person.

哦，我肯定会是对的。我有预感。

Oh, I'm gonna be right. I know it.

说实话我相信你，这让我很兴奋。天啊。梅尔·罗宾斯，非常感谢你今天参与这场对话。

I honestly believe you, which is exciting for me. My god. Mel Robbins, thank you so much for this conversation today.

也谢谢你，感谢你对我们谈论的一切持开放态度。我真心希望你能如愿。你值得拥有这些。

Well, thank you, and thank you for being open to everything we talked about. I really want that for you. You deserve that.

谢谢你，梅尔。《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本期节目由艾米丽·朗制作，戴维斯·兰德和我们的执行制片人珍·波扬特编辑。《现代爱情》主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作。

Thank you, Mel. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Emily Lang. It was edited by Davis Land and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.

本集原创音乐由阿明·萨霍塔和罗温·内马斯托制作。我们的视频团队包括布鲁克·明特斯、费利斯·莱昂内、迈克尔·科尔德罗、索耶·罗克、雷切尔·温、戴夫·迈耶斯、阿尔弗雷多·奇亚·拉帕和索菲·埃里克森。本期节目由索尼娅·埃雷罗混音，录音室支持来自麦迪·马谢洛和尼克·皮特曼。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。

Original music in this episode by Amin Sahota and Rowan Nemasto. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Cordero, Sawyer Roque, Rachel Wynn, Dave Mayers, Alfredo Chia Rapa, and Sophie Erickson. This episode was mixed by Sonia Herrero with studio support for Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，我们的节目说明中有投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢收听。

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.