她想要的那种痛

在迈尔斯堡的每个角落，生活都以你舒适的节奏展开。在这里，与所爱之人及自我建立连接是一种从容的享受。无论是红树林下划皮艇、驻足观赏飞鸟、沿岸拾贝，还是漫步海滩，每一刻都引人深思。迈尔斯堡是一个值得全身心体验的地方

Throughout the Fort Myers area, life unfolds at your own speed. Here, connecting to loved ones and yourself is an unhurried pleasure. Whether kayaking beneath mangroves, pausing to watch birds take flight, finding seashells along the shoreline, or walking the beach, each moment invites reflection. Fort Myers is a place to experience fully

在

at

恰到好处的节奏中。访问visitfortmyers.com，发现一种更缓慢、更有意识的生活方式。

a pace that just feels right. Discover a slower, more intentional way of living at visitfortmyers.com.

此刻与永恒之爱。坠入爱河

Love now and forever. Fall in love

上次我爱他们。爱比任何事物都强大。为了爱。爱。

last time I love them. Love is stronger than anything. For the love. Love.

而我爱你胜过

And I love you more than

一切。爱。

anything. Love.

爱依然存在。

There's still love.

爱。

Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。您正在收听《现代爱情》。今天，我将与一位作家探讨她如何发现痛苦与BDSM是她全然活在当下、感知身体的关键。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Love. Today, I'm talking to a writer about how she discovered that pain and BDSM were key to her being fully in her body and in the moment.

在我生命中最关键的时刻，我的大脑却总在纠结该如何完美铭记这一刻。

In the most important moments of my life, my brain was instead focusing on how do I remember this so that it's perfect.

格蕾丝·胡萨尔一生都在努力保持专注。她总是游离在当下之外，这让她困扰不已。作为一个同样过度思考的人，我对此深有共鸣。比如这个细节令我印象深刻——格蕾丝告诉我，当她第一次对男友说'我爱你'时，她过度思考到甚至记不清对方回应时的感受。

For her entire life, Grace Hussar struggled to stay present. She was always a little outside of the moment, and it bothered her. As a fellow extreme overthinker, I have to say I related to this hard. For example, this detail really stuck out to me. Grace told me about how when she was telling her boyfriend she loved him for the first time, she got so in her head about it that she couldn't even remember what it felt like when he said it back.

多希望能回到那一刻，真正体会听到他表白的感受，而不是盯着他颤抖的下巴，不是等待完美回应或纠结错误回答。我...多希望能重温那种纯粹的感觉。

I wish I could just go back to that moment and feel what it felt like to hear those words from him instead of watching his chin shake, instead of waiting for the right response or worrying over the wrong response. I I wish I could go back to that moment and just feel that feeling.

当格蕾丝开始跑步后，一切开始改变。不是普通跑步，而是超级马拉松——这种极限耐力运动要跑31英里（没错就是31英里）甚至更远。她不断突破自己的生理极限。

All of this started changing when Grace became a runner. And not just any kind of runner, an ultra runner. This is extreme endurance running, 31 miles, hearing that right, 31 miles or more. She was pushing herself to her limit or beyond it.

你会蜕变成动物般的状态，成为摆脱肉体束缚的纯粹存在，只剩下最原始的本能。

You become an animal. You become a physical a physical being without the burden of a body. You become just all id.

完成首次超级马拉松后，某些东西觉醒了。

And after her first ultra marathon, something clicked.

我的身体彻底垮了，没有一寸不疼的地方。但精神上，我从未如此充实完整过。

My body was my body was fucked. I mean, there was not a part of me that was not just wrecked. But mentally, I had never felt more fulfilled. I had never felt more whole.

格蕾丝发现身体通过关闭大脑来应对耐力跑的痛苦——而这种感觉出奇地好。她渴望更多：更多痛苦，更少思考。于是她深入探寻这种特殊的痛感。

Grace realized that her body coped with the pain of endurance running by turning her brain off. She also realized that felt good. She wanted more of it. More pain, less thinking. So she dug a little further to find more of the kind of pain she wanted.

这正是她《现代爱情》专栏文章的标题《我想要的痛》。我特别好奇这位两个孩子的母亲——拥有幸福伴侣和金融事业的女性——如何意识到痛苦竟是自我关怀的关键。请继续收听。

That's actually the title of her Modern Love essay, the kind of pain I wanted. I was so curious to talk to this mother of two who's in a happy partnership, who has a career in finance, about how she realized that pain was essential to taking care of herself. Stay with us.

本节目由探照灯影业出品《玫瑰之战》赞助。来自《拜见岳父大人》导演的《玫瑰之战》，是献给所有恋爱过观众的欢乐喜剧。完美伴侣艾薇与西奥·罗斯本过着梦幻生活，但当西奥事业崩塌遇上艾薇名声鹊起时，嫉妒与怨恨将摧毁一切。杰伊·罗奇执导，本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇、奥利维娅·科尔曼等主演，本周五全美上映。

This podcast is supported by Searchlight Pictures presenting The Roses. From the director of meet the parents comes the roses, a crowd pleasing comedy for anyone who's ever been in a relationship. Perfect couple Ivy and Theo Rose were living the dream. But when Theo's career comes crashing down just as Ivy's fame takes off, a tinderbox of competition and resentment threatens to destroy everything. Directed by Jay Roach and starring Benedict Cumberbatch, Olivia Coleman, Andy Samberg, Allison Janney, Shuti Gatwa, and Kate McKinnon in theaters everywhere this Friday.

你昨天才意识到公司急需招聘人手。如何快速找到优秀候选人？很简单，就用Indeed。加入全球350万雇主的行列，使用Indeed快速招募顶尖人才。

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Join the 3,500,000 employers worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast.

无需再等待。立即通过Indeed加速招聘流程。本节目听众还可获得75美元赞助职位积分，提升职位曝光度，请访问indeed.com/nyt。现在就去indeed.com/nyt，并告知我们您是通过本播客了解Indeed的，以此支持我们的节目。indeed.com/nyt。

There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/nyt. Just go to indeed.com/nyt right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/nyt.

条款与条件适用。招聘？Indeed就是您所需的一切。这是待您解读的头条。

Terms and conditions apply. Hiring? Indeed is all you need. It's your headline to unpack.

这是您每周都要跟进的故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是您要破解的Wordle谜题。

It's your Wordle to work through.

这是您要追踪的团队动态。

It's your team to track.

这是您探索的三十六小时。

It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是您要掌握的腌料秘诀。

It's your marinade to master.

这是您要理清的观点。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是您要升级的床垫选择。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

今天是你了解还需要为圣母大学做些什么的日子。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame.

《纽约时报》。这是你理解世界的窗口。更多内容请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

你知道吗，格蕾丝，这绝对是我在播客中向嘉宾提出的最有趣的首个问题之一，但我想知道，BDSM对你来说意味着什么？

You know, Grace, this is certainly one of the more fun first questions I've ever asked a guest on the podcast, but I wonder, what does BDSM mean to you?

它对我意味着很多不同的事情。一开始，你听到BDSM会想到乳胶、皮革、鞭子和锁链，还有被捆绑的人。但后来你会逐渐认识到BDSM关乎控制与释放控制，关乎支配的意义以及臣服于他人的感受。所以当我听到BDSM这个词时，我立刻想到的是：臣服对我意味着什么？以不丧失自主权的方式放弃权力意味着什么？从承担权力的压力中解脱又意味着什么？

So it means a lot of different things to me. In the beginning, you hear BDSM and you think of like latex and leather and whips and chains and people getting tied up. But what you sort of learn to identify with BDSM is control and relief of control and what domination means and what it feels like to submit to someone. So to me, when I hear the term BDSM, I immediately think of what does submission mean to me and what does it mean to give up power in a way that doesn't cost me my agency? What does it mean to be relieved of of having to carry power?

如果你寻求一段BDSM关系，你不是想要被剥夺控制权，而是希望从掌控的责任中解脱，从做决定的压力中释放。

If you're seeking out a BDSM relationship, you're not looking to have control taken from you. You're looking to be relieved of the ownership of being in control. You're looking to be relieved of of the pressure of making decisions.

所以你在第一次超级马拉松后意识到，你很喜欢疼痛对你大脑产生的影响。对吧？那么你是怎么想到要通过其他方式体验疼痛的？

So you realized after this first ultramarathon that you really liked what pain did to your brain. Right? Yeah. How did you get the idea that you wanted to experience pain in other ways?

你知道吗，从来没有某个瞬间让我突然宣称'看啊，我是个受虐狂'。更像是：我喜欢这个，也喜欢那个，逐渐累积的过程。

You know, there was never a moment where I was like, look at me. I'm a masochist. Like, it it was more like, okay, I like this thing. Well, I like this thing. I like this.

直到某个时刻你会想：这能给我某种解脱。如果推到极致，或许能得到巨大的释放。

I like that. And there's a moment where you're like, this gives me some relief. I wonder if I push it to the extreme, I'll get a ton of relief.

等等，我能在这之前打断一下吗？你的大脑是怎么把这个作为下一步的？就像'好吧，我喜欢疼痛'——

Wait. Can I can I pause you before this? Like, how was this the next, like, step that your brain took? It's like, okay. Well, I like pain.

有些人可能会想：也许我可以尝试极限举重之类的。为什么偏偏是BDSM？这个特定领域是怎么进入你视野的？

Some people might be like, maybe I'll look into, I don't know, like, extreme weight lifting or something. Like Yeah. Why was it BDSM? Like, how did that specific thing?

超级马拉松跑者都开玩笑说他们是受虐狂。好吧，你懂吗？要么这样，要么雇个性工作者来鞭打我。你明白我的意思吧？

Ultra runners all joke that they're masochists. Okay. You know? It's this or hire a sex worker to whip me. You know what I mean?

就像，人们会开这种玩笑。比如如果不跑超级马拉松，我可能就会穿着女式长袜被绑在地下室之类的地方。我本来从没太当真，直到——天啊，那个让我纵身跃下的契机是什么？我想是因为我遇到了一位手法极重的按摩师。那是在我刚接触耐力运动后，他下手特别狠。

Like like, people will make jokes like that. Like like if not ultra running, then I'd be, you know, wearing women's stockings and and tied up in a basement or something like that. It was never something that that I took too seriously until, gosh, what what was like the precipice that I jumped off of? I think what it was is that I had a very good massage therapist. And it was right after I started doing endurance events, and he was extremely rough.

他真的会彻底摧毁我的肌肉。总开玩笑说是在给我'松肉'，因为运动后肌肉紧绷得厉害。他会站上按摩床，用肘部狠狠压进我背部，痛得我当场流泪。但感受着肌肉舒展的同时，我情感上也像被打开了，过程中竟对他产生了强烈吸引力。每次按摩完离开时，我都处于极度性兴奋状态。

Like, I mean, he just really destroyed my muscles. And he would always joke that he was tenderizing me because your muscles are like so tense afterwards. And he would get up on the table and like get on my back and like drive his elbow into me, and it was so painful that I would cry while he was doing it. And like feeling the muscles open up, I was opening up emotionally as my muscles were opening up, and I found myself very attracted to him while we were doing this. And I would leave those massages and be like so sexually tuned up Wow.

我当时就想：要是有人能先这样折磨我，再和我做爱该多好？岂不是完美的收尾？可能就是这件事让我开了窍。之后没多久我就开始上网搜索——虽然记不清具体关键词，大概是'疼痛按摩+快乐结局'这类蠢词——结果意外发现了从没听过的FetLife。

That like, I was like, wouldn't it be great if we had this like someone beating me up and then also having sex with me? Like, wouldn't that be a wonderful finish to this? I think that's what did it. I think it was shortly after that that I started just I can't remember what I googled, but it was probably something terrible, like painful massage, happy ending or something stupid like that, like, and of course, it took me to FetLife, which I had never heard of.

给不了解的听众解释下，FetLife是什么？

For people who don't know, what is FetLife?

FetLife可以类比为Facebook，是个社交网站。但用户主要在上面交流各种特殊性癖好，寻找志同道合的伙伴。

So FetLife is a site that, one could compare to Facebook. It's a social networking site, and people chat on there. But what they are mostly chatting about is their various kinks, and they're finding other people who have those kinks to connect with.

你在上面看到了什么？感受如何？

What did you start to see on there, and how did it make you feel?

冲击力太强了，真的难以招架。和所有人一样，初看时会觉得：这些人都是变态，和我完全没关系。你会看到各种酷刑般的场景——被捆绑、悬吊、锁链禁锢...

It was overwhelming. It was really overwhelming. And like anyone else, you look at that stuff and you're like, well, those people are freaks. Like, that's not me at all, you know? And you see things like people just being in various states of torture, tied up, strung up, chained to things.

有许多令人不适的重口味内容。刚开始浏览时我觉得：太怪异了，这完全超出我的认知范围。于是退出登录——但后来又回去了。

There's all kinds of kinks that are very hard and hard to look at. And at first, I looked around a little bit and I was like, well, that's freaky and I'm way out of my depth on this. And I logged off and then I went back again.

为什么？你重返的原因是什么？

Why? Why did you return? Because

我被迷住了。我不知道。这有点像当你被一个通常不会吸引你的人吸引时，你会想，那个家伙是个邋遢出汗的男人，对吧？然后，你越看他越多，就会想，他真的是那样吗？真的吗？

I was fascinated. I don't know. It's kind of like when you're attracted to someone who's not who you're normally attracted to, and you're like, well, that guy's a gross sweaty man, like, you know? And then, like, you see him more and more, and you're like, is he, though? Really?

我完全明白你在说什么。

I know exactly what you're talking about.

是啊。所以你就像，其实没那么糟。你只是太娇气了。回去再看一遍。嗯。

Yeah. So you you're like, it wasn't that bad. Like, you were just being a baby. Go back and look at it again. Mhmm.

于是你回去再看一遍，总有一处特别突出，你会想，我其实有点喜欢那个部分，你知道吗。

And so you go back and you look at it again and there's always one thing that sticks out and you're like, well, I kinda like that, you know.

对你来说那个部分是什么？

What was that for you?

嗯。我最早看到的其中一张照片是一个被绳子捆绑的女人，吸引我注意的是，她的身体扭曲成看似极其痛苦的束缚姿势时，面容却如此安详。她的手臂被绑，双腿被缚，悬挂在横梁上，皮肤有些地方已经发紫。但最吸引我的是，你能看出她的身体承受着巨大痛苦，但她的脸却显得那么平静美丽，仿佛她正享受这种体验。

Yeah. So one of the first pictures I saw was a woman tied up with rope and, you know, one of the things that caught my eye was how at peace her face looked while her body was just contorted in what looked to be an incredibly painful predicament bondage. Her arms were tied, her legs were tied, she was hanging from a beam and her skin was purple in places. But what drew you to the picture, what drew me to the picture, what I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful and so beautiful. And it looked like she was happy to be experiencing that.

看起来她在痛苦中找到了平静。我不断回看那张照片，因为那张脸让我有些卸下心防。你本能反应会是'天啊这太痛苦了'，但为什么她看起来如此快乐？

It looked like she had found peace in in that pain. And I kept coming back to that picture because the face was it disarmed me a bit. Because you want to just see something like that and be like, oh my god, that's so painful. But then why did she look so happy?

多说说你看这张照片时的内心独白。是'我也想那样'，还是'那看起来像是...'？详细说说你看着照片时的心理活动。

Tell me more about the inner monologue when you were looking at this picture. Was it like, I wanna do that, or was it just like that looks like Tell me more about what was your your monologue as you were looking at that photo.

最初是'我永远做不到那样'，后来变成'她似乎拥有我渴望的那种解脱感'。

At first, it was, I could never do that. And then it was, she looks like she has the kind of relief that I I want.

她拥有你渴望的解脱感，而你可能通过跑步尝到过类似的滋味，听起来仅限于跑步？

She has the kind of relief that you want and that perhaps you've gotten a taste of through running, it sounds like, only running?

是的。没错。我是说，我觉得每个人在某个阶段都会稍微涉猎一下BDSM。比如遇到某个男友会说，叫我爸爸，或者看了《五十度灰》后觉得，哦，原来是这么回事。

Yep. Yeah. I mean, I everyone, I think, at some point dabbles a little bit in BDSM. You get a certain boyfriend who's like, you know, call me daddy, or or you watch 50 Shades of Grey and you're like, oh, that's what it is.

我猜我是在开玩笑吧。

I'm a joked, I guess.

对。完全正确。于是你浅尝辄止，很快认定这不适合自己，明白吗？我不喜欢那种方式。我不是在寻找剥夺我什么的人，而是在寻求解脱。

Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And so you you sort of dabble in it and you decide early on, this is not for me, you know, I don't like it like that, you know. I'm I'm not looking for someone to take something from me, but I'm looking for relief.

我渴望卸下重担，而非陷入权力斗争，懂吗？在此之前我对BDSM的认知就是：你交出控制权，让别人来支配你。而在我看来——取决于你问谁——我有点强势，是个喜欢掌控的人。所以始终无法理解如何能放弃控制权，又怎能如此信任他人。

I'm looking to be to have my burden lifted instead of have a power struggle, you know? And everything I had known about BDSM up to that point was that you were giving someone else control and someone was going to control you. And from my perspective, I'm someone who's very domineering a little bit, depending on who you ask. I am a person who likes to be in control. And so I could never wrap my brain around how you give that up and how you trust someone that much.

正是这些早期照片让我明白：那些被捆绑的人并非受控，而是正在卸下负担。

And it was these early pictures that sort of helped me see that these people who were tied, someone wasn't controlling them. They were being relieved of their burden.

对某事产生兴趣是一回事，但真正着手尝试参与当然又是另一回事。说说你当时是怎么创建个人资料的？

Being intrigued by something, right, is one thing, but actually kind of setting out to try to get involved in in that thing and, you know, is another, of course. Tell me about how did you make a profile at this point?

我浏览了好几次才创建资料，最初只是加入些小话题的讨论。

It took me a couple of visits before I made a profile, and I started just joining in these little chats about things.

你都问了哪些问题？或者聊了些什么？

What kinds of questions were you asking, or or or what were you talking about?

怎么找到愿意这样做的人？如何确定对方可信？有人担心会被谋杀吗？懂我意思吗？这些具体要怎么操作？

How do I find someone who will do this? How do I know that I can trust someone? Does anybody else worry about getting murdered? You know? I mean, how do you do this?

做这些事时你脑子里在想什么？会疼吗？事后会后悔吗？诸如此类的问题。

What happens in your brain when you do this? Like, you know, does it hurt? Do you regret it? All those questions.

那么有人主动给你解答吗？

And did people come to you with answers?

噢当然。社区里的人，尤其是绳缚社区的成员特别热衷讨论这个，因为它常被误解。很多人看到后第一反应就是'哦这群怪胎'。所以他们很珍惜机会展现自己——'我们只是过着普通生活的人，恰好喜欢这种特殊性行为'，懂吗？

Oh, yeah. Yeah. People in the community, in the Kin community particularly, they love talking about it because it is so misunderstood, and probably a lot of people who look at it just are like, oh, those people are freaks. And so they welcome the opportunity to be seen as, like, people with normal lives who do this one sexual thing, you know?

所以你建立了这个资料页，逐渐了解这个世界，得到各种问题的答案。那你遇到了哪些人？

So you have this profile. You're getting all these you're learning more about this world. You're getting these questions answered. Who did you meet?

最早联系我的人里有个叫彼得的，他当时在圈内很受欢迎。原因有两点：第一他从不对人施压，只是自我介绍后顺其自然。而其他人总会说'我不但要绑你，还要对你做这些疯狂事，天啊你下面会爽翻的'。

So one of the first people that reached out to me was Peter, and he was very popular in the scene at the time. And part of the reason for that was twofold. Number one, he did not put any pressure on people. He does kind of introduce himself and let things fall where it will. Whereas everyone else would be like, not only am I gonna tie you up, but then I'm gonna do all these, you know, crazy things to you and oh my god, your pussy is gonna feel amazing.

那些人简直像在写色情小说，但彼得会说'这是我对我们的构想，感兴趣就告诉我'。我加入FedLife大概两周后他发来消息，那时我已经上传了几张照片让人了解我的体型。记得他写道——具体措辞记不清了——

Like, they would really just write you this erotic essay, you know, whereas Peter was kind of like, this is what I have in mind for us. Let me know if you're interested. And so he sent me a message not long after I joined FedLife, maybe like a couple of weeks. And by this time, I had put a couple of pictures of myself up just to kinda give people the idea of what they were dealing with. And I remember he wrote to me that he was I can't remember how he phrased it.

大意是'我想拓展捆绑的体型范围，而你正在我的关注列表里'。我体型偏丰满，大概穿12-14码。他那种坦诚很打动我，不像别人只会说'你好辣，我想碰你'。

It was like, I am enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie, and you are on my radar as someone who is in in that that spectrum of bodies. And I am a bit fuller. I'm like maybe a size twelve, fourteen. And so for me, that honesty, that transparency where he wasn't like, you're so hot. I wanna get my hands on you.

他的态度是'这种体型在照片里不常见，我想学习如何捆绑'。这让我卸下防备，感觉不是群发消息，他真的看见了我这个人、我的身体和我的需求。

He was kind of like, you have a body type that you don't see in these pictures a lot, and I would like to learn how to tie that body. And it disarmed me. I felt like it wasn't just a copy and pasted message. He was actually seeing me and seeing my body and seeing what I wanted.

这条消息让你安心正是因为它的直白，而且——可能用词不当——甚至有点公事公办的感觉？相比其他人浮夸的措辞，他的信息显得很干脆。

He sends you this message, which was comforting to you because of its transparency, and also to me sounds quite maybe this is the wrong word, but almost like business like or like a little clinically, which is which maybe also was kind of like, okay, this guy has like his as opposed to maybe the more florid or over the top, it sounds like messages from other people. Like, this was to the point.

没错，我就被这种近乎临床诊断式的诚实吸引了。这让我感到安全。

Yeah. I was very attracted to that, like, just clinical, you know, honesty. Like, it it felt it made me feel safe.

你怎么回复的？等等，先说说他的资料页给你的印象？吸引你吗？

How did you respond? And also, wait. Sorry. Even before that, what did his profile look like to you? Were you drawn in?

他的个人资料简直疯狂。上面有数百张照片，绑着各种人——男人、女人、胖子、瘦子，各种族裔都有。我记得收到他消息后点开资料，当时就想：天啊，我可应付不来这个，因为那些人被以各种痛苦的方式捆绑着，看着都疼。

His profile was insane. He had hundreds of pictures on there. And he tied men, women, you know, I mean, fat people, skinny people, you know, every race. He had hundreds of pictures on there. I remember I clicked on his profile after he messaged me and I was like, oh my god, I'm not up for this because the people were tied in all different ways and it was painful looking.

看到那些我就直接拒绝了。

And when I saw it, I was like, no.

听起来这已经超出你的接受范围了。

It seems like it was pushing the envelope for for you.

是啊。你是怎么...

Yeah. How did you go

从觉得'这超出我能力范围，我做不到'到产生'或许该回复他'的念头？这个转变是怎么发生的？

from being like, I'm out of my depth here. I don't think I can do this to being like, maybe I should reply. Like, how did that how did that work?

其实这说明我当时刚接触网络约会——换现在收到这种消息看到那些照片，我肯定直接拒绝。但那时我强迫症似地想要回复每条消息，所以虽然不想接触这人，还是礼貌回了句：'你看起来很优秀，信息也很有趣，但这类重口味玩法目前超出我的认知范围，我还没准备好。'本以为他会像其他被拒男网友那样骂'去死吧贱货'...

Well, this is how you know I was like new to like online dating and online encounters is because now, like, I would get a message like that and see those pictures and be like, oh, no, not for me. But then, I was still trying to like reply to every message I got. And so I was like, well, I'm not gonna, you know, connect with this guy, but I'll do the polite thing and tell him I'm not interested. And so I sent him a message back and I was like, you know, you seem really great and I and I I really enjoyed your message, but I think that this depth of kink is a little out of my frame of reference right now, and I I don't think I'm ready for that. And I expected based on like other men on the internet for him to be like, you know, well fuck you bitch.

或者说些'肥婆妓女'之类男人被拒时的标准脏话。但他特别友善，回复说：'作为新手你可能不明白，其实参数是由你设定的。如果那个程度太深，告诉我你的接受范围，我们可以从那里开始。'

You're a fat ass whore or whatever men always say to women who reject them. But he was very nice and he was like, you know, perhaps being new, you don't understand that like you are the one setting the parameter. So if that's out of your depth, tell me what's in your depth and and we'll start there.

他是在说明：请注意，掌控权其实在你手上。

He's saying, you know, just FYI, you'd be the one who'd be in control.

没错。这话让我震惊，因为我对BDSM的最大恐惧就是失去控制权。而他居然说'你才是掌控者，我只是执行你的指令'...

Yeah. And that kind of blew my mind. And so, of course, like, my biggest fear with BDSM was was giving up control. And so for him to respond, actually, you're the one in control. Like, I'm just doing what you tell me to do.

我立刻回复：'好吧，你想在哪里见面？'当然措辞很得体：'这引起了我的兴趣，要不要当面详谈？'

I was like, okay, where do you want to meet? I was like I mean, I sent it back very nicely. I was like, okay. This intrigues me. Like, would you like to talk more in person?

我对这个世界了解不多，但我确实知道在这种情境下，明确同意是BDSM文化中的重要部分。比如，告诉我你们俩在开始之前有过什么样的对话。

I don't know a lot about this world, but I do know that a big part of kink is explicit consent in these kinds of scenarios. Like, tell me about what kind of conversation you two had before you started doing anything.

是的。当他发消息给我时，你知道，我就说，我们能当面谈这个吗？我说，好的，没问题。

Yeah. When he messaged me, you know, like, okay, can we have this conversation in person? I was like, okay. Yeah. No problem.

我当时太新手了，没想到在答应见面后收到那么多信息。他要了我的电话号码，还特意问‘你愿意给电话号码吗？’我说愿意。

And I was so new that I I wasn't expecting the amount of information I got after I said, okay. Let's meet up. And he asked me for my phone number. He was like, are you comfortable giving your phone number? I said, yes.

我刚发完号码，就接连收到大量带附件的短信——全是他喜欢的项目描述，当然每项都标注了可拒绝的选项。他偏好将绳缚对象裸露以便观察绳索位置，还附了张人体图，要求用绿色标注允许触碰部位，红色标注禁区。接着还有二三十个关于创伤史的提问。

I sent him my phone number. And immediately after, I got text after text after text of, like, attachments, and they were descriptions of things that he enjoyed doing, and of course, like, the option to opt out of any of those things. And his preference was to tie rope bottoms naked so that he could better see the placement of the rope. And then there was a diagram of a body, and you had to color any part of the body green that he was allowed to touch and any part of the body red that he wasn't allowed to touch. And then there were maybe 20 or 30 questions about areas of trauma.

青少年时期我曾多次被信任的成年人侵犯。那段经历剥夺了我‘活在当下’的能力，让我以为性只是忍受而非参与，是施加而非享受。找回平衡点对我来说就像场艰苦卓绝的超长马拉松。

And as an adolescent, I was assaulted by by an adult that I trusted several times. So that ability to, like, stay in the moment, I was robbed of that by that experience, and I learned that, like, sex is something you tolerate and not something you participate in. And it's something that's done to you and not something you enjoy, you know? And and so finding that balance and and walking that line for me, it it's been a it's been a hard fought path. It's been an ultramarathon.

这个视角很重要——为什么掌控权，以及能在保留主导权的前提下释放控制对你如此关键。我真的很感谢...

It's a really important framing, I think, for why having control and also being able to to to release control in a way that still keeps the power with you is so important to you. So I really appreciate

没错。对我来说，重获力量的部分在于承认：我有权享受性，有权探索性。记得问卷里有道题是‘我希望从这次经历中获得____的感觉’，需要填空。

that. Yeah. Absolutely. Part of, for me, reclaiming my power was acknowledging that I have permission to enjoy sexuality, and I have permission to explore sexuality. And it was like, I remember there was a question on there that was like, I hope to feel like blank from my encounter, and you had to fill it in.

你填了什么？

What did you put?

我写的是‘希望在与你的相遇中保持全然在场’。

I think I put, I want to feel present for my encounter with you.

哇。

Wow.

于是我们把所有文件都处理好了。我立刻寄了回去，然后我们计划在咖啡馆见面。他还说，通常他会选个离自己近的地方，这样如果我们合得来想尝试些什么，就可以直接回他住处。这种坦诚再次吸引了我。他没有那种‘第一次见面什么都不会发生，别抱太大期望’之类的套话。

So so we we did all the paperwork. I sent it back right away, and we made a plan to meet up at a cafe. And he was like, normally, just so you know, I try to pick a place near me so that if we hit it off and you want to try something, we can go back to my place and and try it. And again, the transparency really drew me in. I really was like, you know, it wasn't like he was like, nothing's gonna happen on this first meetup, like, don't get your hopes up, yada yada yada.

所以我就想，好吧，我接受这个提议。特意选了个下午孩子不在家的日子，确保能有几个小时的空闲时间。

And so, I was like, okay, I'm open to that, you know, let's pick a day where I have a little bit more time. And so I made sure that, like, I had a kid free afternoon and and everything was was in order for me to spend a few hours doing that.

那么你在咖啡馆见到他了？说说第一印象吧。

So you see him at the cafe. Tell me about your first impression.

他太有魅力了。我总忍不住看他的手——骨节分明又强壮。照片里就注意到这点了。记忆中全是这些碎片画面，反而没怎么记住对话内容。当时满脑子都是‘谁在乎他说什么’你知道吗？

He was so attractive. And I remember looking at his hands a lot because he has like really big, strong looking hands. And I I remember seeing them in the pictures and and I there were a lot of fractional images in that memory for me, but not a lot of conversation. Like, my brain was kind of like, who cares what he has to say? You know?

反正他肯定会说漂亮话，我也会应对得体。

He's gonna say all the right things. I'm gonna say all the right things, you know?

而我的眼睛离不开那双手。

And I'm looking at those hands.

没错。这种时候你完全依赖动物本能做决定。如果感到害怕就知道不对，如果没有吸引力...毕竟我们不是要共建人生，也不是正经约会。

Yeah. When you're doing something like this, you're you're relying so heavily on like your animal instincts to tell you what to do, you know? Because if you're afraid, you know it's not right. If you're not attracted to him I mean, we're not we weren't building a life together. We weren't dating.

说到底就是人类最底层的需求：我信任他吗？有感觉吗？根本不需要问‘你做什么工作’或者‘和前妻关系如何’这种问题。

And so, it all came down to the bargain basement floor of, like, humanity. Like, do I trust him? Do I feel attracted to him? There weren't a lot of questions. It wasn't like I had to, you know, know what he did for a living or, you know, what was your relationship with your ex wife like?

全是本能反应。可能不到五分钟，我就觉得‘够了’。

Like, it was a lot of animal instincts and within minutes, probably within the first five minutes, I was like, okay. I I've had enough.

‘够了’是指...

Had enough, like

我当时就知道自己会这么做。他问我‘想离开这儿吗？’而我回答‘好啊’。

I just knew I would go through with it. He was like, you wanna get out of here? And I was like, yeah.

我们稍后继续。现在详细说说接下来发生的事。你们离开那里后，听起来是开车去了他家。

We'll be right back. And now take me through, you know, everything that happens next. So you you get out of there, you drive, it sounds like to his house.

对。有趣的是我紧张到完全记不清那段路程，不记得具体步骤，就像记不住数学公式一样。

Yeah. So, you know, what's funny is, like, I was so nervous that I I don't remember that that trip. I don't remember, you know, a plus b. I don't remember the steps. Yeah.

我只记得在咖啡馆时，我认定这事能成。接着突然清醒过来，发现自己站在他绳缚室的金属架下面。

I remember we were in the cafe, and I made the decision that, like, this could work. And then the next thing I know, my brain is turning on, and I'm, like, standing under the, like, a frame in his rope room.

给我描述下那个绳缚室的样子。

Describe that room for me, this rope room.

他公寓挺普通的，两居室格局。其中一间房里有个秋千架般的金属框架，就是儿童秋千那种。

So he has a fairly normal condo. It looks fine, and it's just like a two bedroom condo. And then in one of the rooms, there is like a frame from like a swing set, you know, like a children swing set.

嗯。

Yeah.

但没有秋千部件。架子一端挂着各类绳索和绳包，垂着盏电子蜡烛。另一端却摆着把异常巨大锋利的刀和剪刀。看到刀时我还觉得奇怪。

But without any of the swings or anything. It's just a a frame for it. And on one end of the frame is like types of rope and and a rope bag and and there's like a little electric candle hanging down. And then on the other end of the frame is a extremely large, extremely sharp knife and a pair of scissors. And I saw the knife, and I remember thinking it was weird.

但我并不害怕。

I wasn't scared.

明确一下，那把刀和剪刀是用来...？

And and just to be clear, that the knife and the scissors are for are for what?

紧急情况。比如说，如果你绑住某人，他们的指尖失去知觉，或者腿发麻，各种紧急状况都可能发生。当然，你是在进行边缘性行为，而且绳缚并非他在那个房间里唯一做的事。所以必须有个应急方案。

Emergencies. So if, for instance, you tie someone and they lose feeling in their fingertips, or if, for instance, you know, their leg goes numb, there's all kinds of emergencies that could happen. And of course, you're dealing with edge play, you know, and and rope wasn't the only thing he did in that room. And so there had to be a contingency plan.

真有趣。你的直觉是对的。这些不像武器，更像是安全机制。

It's interesting. Your instincts were right. These weren't like weapons. These were Yeah. Safety mechanisms.

是啊，太有意思了。你骨子里有种特质

Yeah. So interesting. You have something in you

被充分验证了。

So validated.

对。我是说，你在这个房间里时...比如当时有放音乐吗？还是完全安静的？

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so you're in this room. I mean, I'm just just to like, was this was he playing music? Was it silent?

能听到外界的声音吗？还是完全与世隔绝？就像...

Could you hear anything of the outside world? Was it its own bubble? Like

肯定不是封闭空间。我能听到外面的声音，车流、鸟鸣，他家外面有棵大树。好笑的是我们还在开玩笑——他准备了个歌单，我戏称那是他的地牢歌单，全是恩雅这类音乐。完全就是...你懂的，那种氛围。

It was not its own bubble for sure. I could hear things outside, you know, traffic, the birds, there's a big tree outside of his house. And it was funny we were joking because he queued up like a playlist and it was like I was joking that it's his dungeon playlist. It's like Enya and and all kinds of like Totally. You know, like, who can sell?

他提前给我打过预防针，目的是通过制造不适感让我脱离思维控制。进入房间后他说：你要站在那个框架下，我会脱掉你的衣服，然后审视你的身体。

So like his goal, and he had prepared me for this a little bit, was to get me out of my head by making me uncomfortable. Wow. And so when we got to the room, he was like, you're gonna stand under that frame and I'm gonna undress you and then I'm gonna look at your body.

当时你心里在想什么？身体有什么反应？

What's happening in your mind? What's happening in your body?

我对那个房间的记忆都是片段式的。记得自己站在框架下，他坐在沙发上凝视我。我本来就不习惯眼神接触，被这样直盯着感觉非常不安。

So I remember what happened in that room in snapshots. I remember it being very fractional. And so I stood under the the frame, and he sat on the couch and he just looked at me. And, like, I am not someone who's super comfortable with eye contact, and so it felt very disconcerting to just be stared at.

这很激烈。

It's intense.

我感觉他就是在如实地感知我的身体。你知道，当你在网上认识某人，尤其是涉及性意味时，你会以自己觉得最有吸引力的方式展示身体。比如我会穿这条裙子，戴上聚拢效果好的胸罩——你在塑造一个希望被他人如何看待的形象。

I got the sense that he was just, like, perceiving my body as it was. You know, because when you meet someone off the Internet, especially when there's a sexual component, you present your body in a way that you feel is the most attractive. Like, I'm going to wear this dress. I'm going to wear the good push up bra. Like, you're you're creating a picture of how you wanna be perceived.

但当你只是站在那里，允许自己作为一个纯粹的身体存在时，会感到非常脆弱。

But when you just stand there and and you allow yourself the ability to be a body, it can feel very vulnerable.

你的大脑是不是在超速运转？比如他在怎么想我，之类的。

Is your brain going into overdrive? Like, this is what he's thinking about me. This is, you know Yeah.

对啊，比如'他肯定在想这个'、'他后悔了'、'他在干嘛'、'还要多久'——

Oh, yeah. Like, oh, he's thinking this. He's regretting this. Like, what is he doing? How long is this gonna take?

四点还得接孩子，所有念头都涌上来：快点结束吧，这不过是今天的又一项待办事项。而他全程都在试图让这'不成为又一项待办'，他的核心诉求是'此刻就是你的全部'，所以别把我塞进待办清单。

I have to pick up the kids by four, like, all the thoughts are coming, like hurry up, get it done, you know, this is another thing I'm doing today. And his his whole goal was for it to not be another thing I'm doing today. His whole goal was this is the thing you're doing. So don't add me to your to do list.

后来发生了什么？你的思绪什么时候停下来的？

What happened and at what point did your brain stop?

突然他站起来，先脱掉我的毛衣。我记得自己还下意识耸肩膀配合，结果他把手按在我胸口说：别帮我。

Yeah. So all of a sudden, he stood up and first he took my sweater off. And I remember I was kind of like moving my shoulders to like help him get it off. And he put his hand on on my like chest and he said, don't help me. Woah.

当时我就震惊了。因为我这辈子都在帮别人配合——社会规训不就是教人如何让自己更容易被爱吗？

And I remember being like, oh shit. Like because all I do is help people. Right? Like, that's what you do. You're socially conditioned to like make it as easy as possible for someone to love you.

那句'别帮我'让我瞬间清醒。他慢慢脱掉我的毛衣，解开衬衫纽扣，当我赤着上身时，他绕到背后解开胸罩，褪下裙子——你根本意识不到自己穿了多少层衣服，直到它们被一件件剥离。最后我赤身站在灯柱下，本能不是遮挡，而是摆出最优美的体态：塌腰翘臀。结果他按住我的屁股说：停下，就这样站着。

So don't help me, it brought me into the moment. And so he took my sweater off and then he unbuttoned my shirt and then, you know, I was standing there without a shirt and he walked around me and then he took my bra off, and then he took my skirt down, like I you don't realize how many layers of clothes you're wearing until they're being taken off one by one by one. Eventually, we got to the point where I was just standing under the post not wearing anything, and your instinct is to not cover yourself, but kind of like make your body look the best, you know. So you you arch your back, you turn your hip out, and he put his hand on my butt and he said, stop. Like, just stand there.

于是我停了下来，就站在那里，他抬起我的手臂，双手搭在我的腰上。感觉他像是在评估我的身体，比如需要多长的绳子。

And so I I did stop and I just stood there and he lifted my arms up and he kind of put his hands on my waist. It felt like he was like gauging my body, like how much rope will I

需要多少？

need?

哪些是柔软的部位？肌肉在哪里？你懂吗？然后他说，跪下。我当时想，哦，糟了。

What are the soft parts? Where are the muscles? You know? And he said, get on your knees. And I thought, oh, fuck.

感觉他连绳子都不打算用，就是要我给他口交之类的。嗯。于是我跪下了，他却转身走出了房间，我心想，哦，该死。嗯。

Like, he's not even gonna use the rope. He's just gonna make me give him a blow job or something. Mhmm. And so I got on my knees and he turned around and like walked out of the room and I was like, oh shit. Mhmm.

他回来时拿着一根竹竿。在这之前，他拿了三种不同的绳子给我看。一种是那种柔软的彩色麻绳，一种是硬邦邦的伞绳样子的绳子，还有一种看起来像带刺铁丝网的椰壳绳。

And he came back with this bamboo pole. And before we had gotten to this point, he had held three different kinds of rope out in front of me. And one was this like cushy hemp, like, colored rope. One was this, like, very hard bristly, like, paracord looking rope. And one was this spiky coconut rope that looked kinda like barbed wire.

他说，你自己选。我看着彩色绳子想，哦，挺可爱的。又看了看伞绳，觉得太人造了。但椰壳绳看起来才像真正的绳子，看起来会很疼。

And he was like, you pick what you want. And so, like, I looked at the colored rope and I thought, oh, that's cute. And I looked at the paracord and I was like, that looks too artificial. But the coconut rope looked like rope. It looked like it looked like it would hurt.

我选了椰壳绳，他说，我就知道你会选这个。

And I picked the coconut rope, and he was like, of course you do.

最疼的那种。你还需要考虑吗？

Most painful one. Did you even have to think about it?

不，不需要。

No. I didn't.

所以你选了绳子。他离开房间，拿着竹竿回来。然后呢？

So you've chosen the rope. He leaves the room. He comes back with the bamboo pole. Then then what?

等我反应过来时，我已经趴在地板上，他正把我的腿绑在竹竿上。我把手臂背在身后，他也把它们绑了起来——情况本可能更糟，他算是手下留情了，但腿部真的非常难受。

The next thing I know, I was laying on my stomach on the floor, and he was tying my legs to the bamboo pole. And I I had put my arms behind my back, and he had tied my arms behind them, not as bad as it could be. He was kind of taking it easy on me, but the legs were really bad.

你说的难受是指...很疼吗？

And And by bad, you mean like painful?

对，很疼。极具挑战性。我记得当时放弃了抵抗，完全沉浸在疼痛中——因为看绳缚照片时，每个人脸上都显得那么安详，你会以为他们从中获得了解脱。

Painful. Yeah. It was challenging. It's a challenge. And I remember letting go and just being in the pain because when you look at the pictures of rope, you everyone looks their face looks so beatific, you know, and and you think they're getting this relief from it.

可能想象中像是重力毯的感觉？实际上却是强烈的束缚感，像被紧紧箍住。但那种疼痛难以忍受，或许是我选的绳子特别粗糙的缘故。天啊，疼得要命——血管就像小时候把橡皮筋缠在手指上...

It probably feels like like a weighted blanket or something. It feels like a constriction, a very tight hug. But it is it's incredibly painful. And it could have been the rope I picked that that could be why it was so particularly painful, but it, oh my god, it hurts so bad. Like, the blood vessels were like I mean, it's like when you were a little kid and you would put a rubber band around your finger.

完全理解，我正想到这个比喻。

Totally. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah.

没错。疼痛来得比预期迅猛得多——当他把我的腿绑上柱子开始打结时，我瞬间意识到：我得比预想中更快适应这种痛苦。本以为会更有情欲感，结果完全不是。

Yeah. And you'd be like, oh my gosh, that hurt very much quicker than I thought it would. So it was like as soon as he started tying my legs to the post and he was like making the links, I was like, I need to get in to the pain a lot quicker than I expected. Like, thought it would be sexier, you know? But it was not.

当我的腿被绑在柱子上、手臂反剪背后后，他开始在架子上打环套，准备把我的腿抬得高过头顶。此时双腿已经剧痛难忍，血液难以循环，突然抬高的瞬间所有血液都冲向...

And after he had tied my legs to the pole and my arms were behind my back, he started making a loop to the frame so that he could lift my legs higher than my head, which if your legs are already in a lot of pain and then they're lifted up, the blood is already having trouble getting to your legs, and then it all rushes to

头部，更加剧烈了。

your head. It was even more intense.

是的。我开始头晕目眩。他做完这些后，看我血流上涌脸色不对，就坐在沙发上观察了我一会儿。可能察觉到我的不适，他过来趴在我面前，强迫我与他对视——这种目光接触让我不得不保持清醒。现在我才明白他的用意。

Yeah. And so you get really lightheaded. And so after he did that, and the blood was all rushing to my head and I felt really lightheaded, he went and sat on the couch and like watched me for a minute. And he must have sensed that I was not doing well because he came and got on the floor with me and he put his face in front of my face, and he the eye contact necessitated that I stay in the moment. The eye contact brought me back, and and I realized now that that's what he was doing.

他在说：你要直面此刻的不适。他要我感受疼痛，于是我睁开眼睛，我们鼻尖相抵。他说：'你了解自己的身体，作为运动员，你会知道什么时候该解开。'

He was saying, you're gonna be in this moment and be uncomfortable with that. And he wanted me to feel the pain, And so I did. I opened my eyes and we were just kind of nose to nose. And he said, you'll know if you're listening to your body, you're an athlete, you'll know when it's time to take it off.

那你是怎么知道时机到了？你的身体或大脑发出了什么信号？

And how did you know when it was time? What was the the flag your body or your brain sent up?

我感觉脚趾开始发麻，就像脚睡着时那种不舒服但不痛的感觉。作为运动员，你习惯了与身体对话，分辨疼痛是即将出问题的预警还是已经存在的问题。你不断确认着：这很痛，但问题还没来。然后突然间疼痛性质变了，你就明白——不对，这不对劲。

So I felt my toes getting numb, and it's kind of like when your foot has fallen asleep, and it it's uncomfortable, but it's not painful. And as an athlete, you get accustomed to checking in with your body and figuring out whether pain is an alert of like trouble that's coming or trouble that's there. And so you're checking in and you're checking in, you're saying this is painful, but trouble's not here yet. And then all of a sudden, the pain changes and you're like, oh yeah, no, this is not right. This is not right.

这已经不是你能够承受的疼痛了，太超过了。

It's not pain that you can get inside of anymore. It's too much.

然后发生了什么？你告诉他了吗？你是怎么向他发出信号的？

So then what happened? Did you tell him? How did you how did you signal to the

我看向他，他说'够了'，我点头。他立刻解开了绳子。当束缚从身上卸下时，整个人就像长舒一口气——原本被紧紧禁锢着，突然释放，绳子脱落的速度比绑上时快得多，毕竟绑上去要费好大功夫。

So I looked at him and he said enough, and I said, yeah. And he just untied it. And when you get rope taken off of your body, it's like your whole body exhales. Like, you're in such an uncomfortable restriction, and then it's removed, and the rope comes off a lot faster than it goes on. It takes forever to get it on.

当束缚松开时，全身就像...你能想象最深的叹息，每个部位都在叹息，连神经突触都在呼气。

And then it's loosened, and your whole body just goes like And it's like the deepest sigh you can imagine. It's like a sigh from every part of your body. It just your synapses just exhale.

你对他、对自己是什么感觉？

How were you feeling towards him, towards yourself?

你会变得非常...怎么说？当剧痛中被解救时，你会对那个人充满感激。而当有人陪你共度疼痛时，这份感激里会掺杂着情欲。所以我感到非常安全，感到被妥善照料。

You get very what's the right word? When you're in a lot of pain and someone releases you, you are grateful to them. And when someone is walking you through the pain, there's a kind of sexuality in that gratitude. And so I felt very safe. I felt taken care of.

我感到铺天盖地的信任与爱意，只想不断说谢谢。尽管是他绑住了我，尽管他某种程度上导致了疼痛，我却涌起汹涌的感激，这让我想与他亲密，想继续下去。在此之前我们的互动都像临床操作。

I felt just this enormous, like, tidal wave of, like, trust and love and just, you know, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And even though he had been the one to tie me up and even though he had been sort of the impetus for the pain, like, I had felt this crushing sense of gratitude and it made me want to be intimate with him and it it made me want to keep going. And up until this point, our interactions had been very clinical.

我只是一具躯体，他只是双手。直到他看见我真正精疲力竭时，情欲才重新回到我们之间。我们重新变回人，不再是躯体与手的关系——我是疲惫的人，他是被需要被重视的人，于是我们开始互相吸引。

Like, I was a body and he was hands. And it wasn't until he could see that I was actually exhausted that the sexuality came back to both of us. Like, we became people again and not bodies and hands. I was an exhausted person, and he was a person who felt needed and valued. And so then we were attracted to each other.

那不像约会，我们会接吻然后看情况发展。

It wasn't like a date where we would, like, make out and then see what happens.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，我当时精疲力竭地躺在地板上，他开始用手给我按摩身体。然后他拿出一个振动棒，让我达到了高潮。事情就这样发展下去，我们最终发生了关系。但整个过程更像是之前提到的按摩——因为我的脆弱状态，我只是全然活在当下，却奇妙地感到自己掌控着局面。

You know, like I was laying on the floor exhausted and he started just like sort of massaging my body with his hands. And then he took out a vibrator and he, you know, gave me an orgasm. Things sort of progressed from there, and we we did have sex with each other. But it was very kinda like the massage that I talked about where it was like I was very broken and kind of just present in the moment because of that brokenness, and it felt like I was in control.

我觉得绳缚主导者与承受者之间的动态很有意思——控制权并非全在主导者手中。我们讨论过承受者其实也在主动选择交出控制权。我绕了个大圈子想问的是：当你疲惫时，甚至在捆绑后的亲密性行为中，你仍感觉掌控着局面吗？

I mean, it it is interesting to me what we said about how this dynamic between rope tops and rope bottoms, let's say. It's not just the rope top who's in control. We talked about how the rope bottom is also sort of making the active choice to give control over. Is kind of a windy way of asking this question, but, you know, when you were tired or or even when you were having sex and being intimate after the tying, like, did you feel in control?

百分之百。没有任何一刻让我觉得性是被施加于我的——鉴于我的创伤经历，我一直刻意避免这种情况。我原本很害怕绳缚后体力耗尽时，他会趁机要求发生关系，像是'我为你做了这个，现在你该回报我'。

Oh, a 100%. There was not ever a moment where it felt like sex was something that was happening to me, which, like, because of my trauma history, I had been very intentional about how sex is not something that happens to me. And I was very afraid that after the rope, I would be so physically spent that he would just take advantage of me and we would just have sex, you know? And he would be like, I did this thing for you. Now you do this thing for me.

交易性质。对，正是这样。

Transactional. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

但完全不是那样。始终是我在决定什么可以什么不行。这不是发生在我身体上的事，而是我们共同参与的事。

It was not like that at all. I was the person saying what was okay and what was not okay. And it was never something that was being done to my body. It was something that we were doing together.

这点真的很重要需要强调——喊停或继续的人是你，而且是你主动想要在绳缚后通过性行为延续亲密。

It's really, I think, important to to underline that. You were the one to say stop or go, you know, like and and you were actively wanting to continue intimacy by having sex after this session.

没错。

Yeah.

最后离开他家时——你描述过那个房间，能听见窗外鸟鸣——就像那种场景：你走出芝加哥某间普通公寓，回到车里...

At the end of that session, you're leaving his home. I'm just trying to it's you know, you described the the room, like, you can hear the birds outside. And it is one of these things where, like, you leave this random condo in Chicago. Right? And you, like, get back into your car, like Yeah.

嗯，有趣的是，一旦疼痛停止，那些念头就又回来了。我记得我们发生关系时，大概进行到一半的时候，我开始想，看手表会不会很明显？还有晚餐该做什么？我累坏了，腿也疼。

Well, it's funny, like, once the pain stops, the thoughts come back. And so I remember, like, we had had sex and it was like probably maybe halfway through the sex act where I started thinking, you know, is it gonna be obvious if I look at my watch? And like, what am I gonna make for dinner? Like, I'm exhausted. My legs hurt.

比如，我根本不想回家做饭。附近哪里能解决晚餐？这周围有什么？我是不是看到过鸡肉特价的招牌？就开始在脑子里盘算要做的事。

Like, I do not wanna go home and like cook dinner. And where can I get dinner? And what's around here? And did I see a sign that said chicken on sale? Like, you know, I started mentally tabulating what I had to do.

疼痛消退的瞬间，那些想法就卷土重来。你是怎么判断这次体验正式结束的？

The second the pain subsides, those thoughts come back. I mean, tell me, how did you know when this session was, like, officially done?

他高潮了。

He came.

好吧。就这样。没有更隐喻的了。行吧，明白了。

Okay. There you go. It's nothing more metaphorical. Okay. There you go.

我们不会相拥温存。用了绳索后两个人都很累，我已经高潮好几次。他是那种会花时间确保我完全满足、彻底释放的人，让我体验所有可能的痛苦、欢愉、不适。当时我瘫软如泥，他说'现在该我了'，结束后他伸手拉我起来，我们拥抱，我穿好衣服。他先离开房间，我在客厅见到喝咖啡的他，又拥抱道谢。他说'太棒了，下次再约'。

I mean, I we weren't gonna, like, snuggle, like, I mean, it was like, we had done the rope, we were we were both tired, I had come several times, you know, and he is someone who really takes his time and makes sure that, like, I am fully satisfied and fully, you know, just laid out, like, that I have eked out every, you know, pain, pleasure, experience, discomfort that I can, and I was just a puddle. And so, he's like, okay, now I can come. And then he did and then, you know, he gave me his hand and he helped me up and we hugged each other and I got dressed and he stepped out of the room and then I went into his living room where he was sitting down like drinking coffee And I gave him a hug and I was like, thank you. And he was like, this was really great. Let's do it again.

我说'好啊，当然'，然后就离开了。

I was like, okay. Yeah. For sure. And then I left.

你还想再体验吗？

Did you wanna do it again?

想啊，当时进行时就想再来。嗯，确实想。

Yeah. I wanted to do it again while I was doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

回家后重新扮演伴侣、母亲、雇员这些现实角色时，会觉得不适应吗？

And when you got home, was it strange to reenter the real world where you're a partner and a mom and like an employee and was it strange to reenter?

是的，那种感觉非常奇特。即使现在，每当我参与类似活动时——后来我还探索过其他癖好领域，参加过各种相关活动——始终有种怪异感，因为意识层面存在双重性。我常说有创伤经历的人都是划分心理隔间的专家，至少初期你会这样做。不过说到这里，我想到BDSM如何帮助我在个人生活中更好地掌控自我，比如在职场上、作为母亲时。

Yeah. It was it's very strange. Even now, like, anytime, you know, I do something like that and and I have, you know, gone down other avenues of kink since then and and I've been to different events and things like that, it is always strange because there's a duality to that that aspect of of your consciousness. I always say that folks with a trauma history are are experts at compartmentalizing, you know, and so you do compartmentalize a little bit, at first anyway. Although as I'm saying that, I think of all the ways that like Kink has allowed me to like step into my power more in my personal life now, like at work, you know, as a mother.

这让我感到非常充满力量。

Like, it is very empowering for me.

距离你和彼得的第一次绳缚体验过去多少年了？

How many years has it been since that first session with Peter?

大约五年了。

It's been about five years.

五年左右。我很想听你谈谈，绳缚这类癖好如何改变了你与自身身体的关系？

About five years. I would love to hear you reflect on how you think rope play kink how has it changed your relationship to your own body?

它改变了我与身体的关系，就像超长跑那样——我不再把身体当作展示品，而是视为工具。从彼得第一次让我裸体，环绕观察我的全身，将其作为整体评估而非挑剔'粗壮大腿'或'丰满臀部'开始，这种视角让我更容易爱上自己的身体，就像超长跑带来的改变。你会意识到，那些你讨厌展示的'松软臀肉'在跑步时恰恰是强大的臀肌支撑着你。绳缚也是如此，当把身体看作工具，就更容易发现它的美，而不是纠结'这个角度好看吗'。

You know, it has changed my relationship to my body in that similar to ultra running, I stop thinking of my body as a thing to present and I start thinking of my body as a tool, you know? And from the very first time that Peter, you know, undressed me and walked around my body and sort of gauged it as a whole and not like, oh, you know, two fat thighs or two bubbly butt or, you know, as a whole, as a tool, it it's made it so much easier to love my body, the same way ultra running has because you begin to see that the, you know, big squishy bubble butt that, you know, you hate dressing is also really great when you're running because you need your glutes. Like, that's what's carrying you. That's what's doing the work of running, you know? And it's similar to rope where when you start seeing your body as a tool, it's a lot easier to fall in love with it, you know, and it's a lot easier to see what's beautiful about it instead of constantly like, is this my best side?

或是'这套装扮完美吗'。完全暴露身体本身就意味着脆弱。

Is this my, you know, perfect outfit? It's there's a a vulnerability to just exposing your whole body.

动物从不会自我审视。

The animal is not self conscious.

没错，说得太妙了。动物没有自我意识，你永远不会看到一匹马嘀咕'哎呀我的蹄子'。

Yes. Exactly. That's beautifully put. The animal is not self conscious. You never see, like, a horse being like, oh, my hooves.

完全不会，懂吗？

Totally. You know?

天啊，我的大腿。

God, my haunches.

没错，就是大腿。

Yes. Exactly. Hunches.

好粗的大腿。我都不确定这是不是马身上的部位。

What a haunch. I don't really know if that's a part of a horse.

你从没见过灰熊会抱怨说'天啊，要是能减掉这最后的20磅就好了'，完全不会。

You never see a grizzly bear being like, god, if I could lose these last 20 pounds, like. Totally not.

我就爱这么说。你从没见过鸟儿会希望自己的翅膀不是长

Well, I love doing that. You never see a bird be like, I wish my wings weren't shaped

那个形状的。对极了。动物们本能地明白身体只是工具，这里面有生物学原理，有神圣的设计。

that way. Yes. Exactly. Like, animals just understand that their body is a tool, you know, and and there's biology in that. There's there's divine design.

格蕾丝，你尝试绳缚时希望发现什么？

Grace, what were you hoping to find when you decided to try rope play?

我希望激活不同的大脑区域，获得对身体的新认知，发掘从未见过的自我面向。

I was hoping to find a different part of my brain. I was hoping to find a new awareness of my body. I was hoping to uncover something that I hadn't seen before in myself.

那你找到了吗？

And did you find that?

老天，当然，完全找到了。

Oh my god. Yeah. Totally.

格蕾丝，这次对话太棒了。非常感谢你今天抽出时间。

Grace, what a conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

非常乐意。谢谢邀请我参加，这真是一次愉快的交流。

You are so welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a delight.

《现代爱情》团队成员包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本期节目由莎拉·柯蒂斯制作，珍·波扬特和戴维斯·兰德编辑。主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作，本集原创音乐来自黛安·王、罗温·尼米斯托和卡罗尔·萨巴洛特。

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Jen Poyant and Davis Land. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Rowan Nimisto, and Carol Sabarot.

本期节目混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯完成，录音棚技术支持来自麦迪·莫西洛和尼克·皮特曼。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李是现代爱情项目的负责人。若您想向《纽约时报》投稿散文或微型爱情故事，节目备注中附有投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁。

This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Mosiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.