分享还是不分享？定位共享如何改变我们的关系

我是安德鲁·奥索金，DealBook的创始人。

This is Andrew Osorkin, the founder of DealBook.

每年，我都在纽约市举办的DealBook峰会上采访全球政界、文化界和商界最具影响力的领袖人物。

Every year, I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the DealBook Summit, a live event in New York City.

在本年度的播客中，您将听到我与加州州长加文·纽森、Palantir和Anthropic的首席执行官，以及查理·柯克的遗孀埃里卡·柯克之间未经剪辑的对话实录。

On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk.

欢迎在任意播客平台收听DealBook峰会特别节目。

Listen to DealBook Summit wherever you get your podcasts.

此刻相爱，永远相爱。

Love now and love.

爱。

Love.

比任何力量都强大。

Stronger than anything.

为了爱。

For the love.

爱。

Love.

我能爱你胜过一切吗？

Can I love you more than anything?

爱。

Love.

愿去爱。

Wish to love.

爱。

Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

这里是《现代爱情》。

This is Modern Love.

我们的节目灵感来源于《现代爱情》专栏，以及所有关于尝试去爱、信任和与他人保持联系的纷繁复杂。

Our show is inspired by the Modern Love column and by all the messiness of trying to love, trust, and stay connected to other people.

我父亲喜欢通过一个几乎每晚都会做的仪式来保持联系。

One way my dad likes to stay connected is with a ritual he does basically every night.

睡前，他会拿出手机，打开'查找朋友'应用，确认我和两个姐妹都安全待在自己的公寓里。

Before bed, he pulls out his phone, fires up the Find My Friends app, and sees that me and my two sisters are at home in our apartments.

看到这些后，他就会在家庭群聊里发条消息，内容大概是：啊，我的三只小山雀都乖乖待在窝里呢。

And when he sees that, he sends a text to the family group chat that says something like, ah, my three little chickadees at home in their nest.

很简单。

It's simple.

很温馨。

It's sweet.

这是他表达爱意的方式，而这一切都得益于位置共享功能。

It's a way he expresses his love, and it's made possible by location sharing.

我们最近邀请听众分享位置共享如何影响你们的人际关系，结果收件箱被各种故事塞满了——有关于你们共享位置的人，也有关于你们拒绝共享的人。

We recently asked you to tell us how location sharing affects your relationships, and you filled our inbox with stories about the people you're sharing your location with and the people you're not.

我和一群朋友、父母以及弟弟共享着我的实时位置。

I share my location with a bunch of my friends and my parents and my brother.

我们在一起大约三年了。

We've been together for about three years.

我们从一开始就共享了位置。

We've shared locations since the start.

我和前夫至今仍在共享位置。

My ex husband and I are still sharing location.

我的孩子们晚上外出活动，我们想看看他们是否过了宵禁时间还在外面。

My children are out and about at night, and we're trying to see where they are late if they're past curfew, for example.

起初我根本不想这么做，总觉得有点不舒服。

At first, didn't even wanna do it because I just kinda felt icky about it.

目前我不需要全天候掌握女友的行踪。

Right now, I don't need to know where my girlfriend is twenty four seven.

我很庆幸我们当时开启了位置共享，这让我很早就发现了他出轨的事实。

I'm happy that we were sharing location services because I got to find out very early that he was cheating on me.

他两天后就要结婚了，却还在和前女友共享实时位置。

He is getting married in two days and still shares his location with his ex girlfriend.

为什么不呢？

Because why not?

有什么好隐瞒的？

What is there to hide?

你们对位置共享的经历，说实在的，真是五花八门。

Your experiences with location sharing were, there's kind of no other way to put this, all over the map.

你们当中有一部分人坚决拒绝与任何人、在任何地方、任何时候共享位置。

A handful of you absolutely unequivocally refused to share your location with anyone, anywhere, ever.

但很多人表示这为生活增添了真正有价值的东西。

But a lot of you said it adds something really valuable to your lives.

有好几次，我妈妈打电话给我说她迷路了。

On multiple occasions, my mother has called me to say, I'm lost.

她要去的地方该怎么走？

How do I get to wherever it is she was going?

我就可以查看她的位置并告诉她怎么走。

And I could look at her location and tell her how to get there.

她很喜欢这种被照顾的感觉，与我通过定位关注她的方式截然相反——我的成年子女们对此可完全不感冒。

She loves the feeling of being taken care of that she gets from having me watch her, which is the exact opposite of how my adult children feel about sharing their location with me.

我的兄弟大卫患有唐氏综合症。

My brother David has Down syndrome.

每次见面时，他偶尔会突然掏出手机，看到我们俩的定位重合时，就会开心得手舞足蹈。

And when I see him, every once in a while, he'll just, like, open up his phone, and he'll show that both of us are in the same place, and he'll just burst out in happiness.

徒步大约四十五分钟后，我发现自己彻底迷路了。

Probably about forty five minutes or so into the hike, I realized I was pretty lost.

我完全看不懂手头的地图。

I couldn't make heads or tails of the map that I had.

最后我只好打电话给我的伴侣。

So I ended up calling my partner.

他确实能在地图上找到我的位置。

He was actually able to locate me on the map.

我无比感激我们有这个追踪设备可用，因为我觉得自己可能找不到回去的路。

I was so so grateful that we had the tracking device available to us because I don't think I would have found my way back.

所以我推荐像我这样方向感不太好的情侣使用这个功能。

So I would recommend it for for couples who may be directionally challenged like myself.

但另一方面，也有像接下来这个故事一样的情况，位置共享起初还好，后来却变得糟糕。

On the flip side of that, there were stories like this next one where location sharing started off okay but took a bad turn.

我搬到了一个更大的新城市，所以第一次离开家乡、离开那些通常会知道我该在哪的人，让我有点紧张。

I moved to a new much larger city, so I was a little nervous about being away from my hometown for really the first time, away from all the people who would typically know where I should be and if something terrible happened to me.

所以能交到两个很好的闺蜜，并且都同意互相共享位置，让我松了一口气。

So it was a relief to make two really good girlfriends and all agree to just share our locations with one another.

但这最终却助长了其中一位朋友的不安全感和嫉妒心——因为她随时都能查看我们的位置。

But it definitely ended up feeding into one of the friends just insecurity, jealousy, the fact that she could always check our locations.

她开始强迫症般地查看我们的定位，然后我们就会收到短信。

She started just obsessively checking our locations and we'd get a text.

喂。

Hey.

没想到你们今晚一起出去玩啊。

Didn't realize y'all were hanging out tonight.

为什么不邀请我？

Why didn't you invite me?

或者，嘿。

Or, hey.

我看到你在我最喜欢的咖啡店。

I see you're at my favorite coffee shop.

要是能收到邀请就好了。

Would have loved an invite.

所以我基本上不得不因此结束这段友谊。

So I had to end the friendship basically over that.

能够看到某人的位置几乎就像拥有超能力。

Being able to see someone's location is almost like having a superpower.

但就像任何超能力一样，必须负责任地使用它。

But like any superpower, it must be used responsibly.

有时候这意味着直接关掉它。

And sometimes that means just turning it off.

这段关系以一种不确定的方式结束了。

The relationship kind of ended on uncertain terms.

在这种似分非分的不确定时期，我开始不分昼夜地痴迷查看她的位置。

And in this uncertain period of kind of breakup, kind of not, I started very obsessively checking her location at all hours.

我们身处大学校园，活动范围本就很有限，这逐渐演变成不仅是心理上的焦虑，更是生理上的症状表现。

We're on a college campus in a very kind of contained radius, and it started turning into, like, not just, like, psychological anxiety, but, like, a physical manifestation.

只要知道她的具体位置，不论在她身边还是其他地方，我都会感到不自在。

Like, I just would not feel comfortable around her or even anywhere because I knew exactly where she was.

有天傍晚，我独自走在街上，戴着耳机听着些伤感的音乐，打开手机查看她的定位。

And one night, was walking alone on the street, and it was dusk, and I had my headphones in and was listening to some sort of melodramatic music and opened my phone and looked at her location.

突然间，我仿佛听到内心'啪'的一声——我必须停下来。

And all of a sudden, there was just kind of a snap of, like, I need to stop.

我想要自由的感觉。

I wanna feel free.

很明显，位置共享从根本上改变了我们的人际关系。

It's clear that location sharing has changed something fundamental about our relationships.

无论你选择开启还是关闭位置共享，生活中总有人会对此有所感触，每个人似乎都需要自己来划定界限。

Whether you opt in, whether you opt out, someone in your life is probably gonna feel some type of way about it, and everyone seems to need their own road map for where to draw the line.

在本期节目中，我采访了一位《现代爱情》的专栏作家，他曾在位置共享的界限问题上深陷挣扎。他向我讲述了一个家庭悲剧如何让这个决定变得异常重要。

Today on the show, I talked to a Modern Love essayist who has wrestled deeply with drawing his personal line around location sharing, and he tells me how a family tragedy made the stakes of that decision feel exceptionally high.

请继续收听。

Stay with us.

嘿。

Hey.

我是约翰·蔡斯。

It's John Chase.

还有玛丽·上原。

And Mari Uihara.

我们来自《纽约时报》旗下的产品推荐服务Wirecutter。

From Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from The New York Times.

玛丽，现在是送礼物的时间了。

Mari, it is gift giving time.

今年我们有很多很棒的礼物清单。

And we have so many great lists this year.

有什么50美元以下的简单礼物推荐吗？

What's an easy gift for someone, like, under 50?

在我们的50美元以下礼物清单里，我特别喜欢这套来自日本的水彩套装。

In our gifts under 50 list, I really love this watercolor set from Japan.

这些颜色真的太美了。

These beautiful, beautiful colors.

小孩子和大人都可以玩。

It's something that kids can do, adults can do.

我很喜欢这个。

I love that.

有什么我爸爸会喜欢的趣味礼物吗？

What's, like, something fun that my dad is gonna enjoy?

我们在'送给爸爸的礼物'清单里有这些定制版Funko公仔。

We have these custom Funko Pops on our gifts for dads list.

你可以定制一个和你爸爸长得一样的摇头玩偶。

You can custom make a little bobblehead toy in the likeness of your dad.

它们完全不是正经玩意儿。

They're totally unserious.

就是些傻乎乎又好玩的东西，但人们真的很喜欢。

They're just silly and fun, and people really love them.

这也太搞笑了。

This is so hysterical.

我以前从没见过这种东西。

I had never seen these before.

简直太棒了。

They're amazing.

我得承认，我自己都有点想要一个。

I have to admit, I sort of want one myself.

查看Wirecutter的所有礼物推荐，为自己和其他人挑选礼物，请访问nytimes.com/holidayguide。

Check out all of Wirecutter's gift recommendations for yourself and everyone else at nytimes.com/holidayguide.

等等

Wait.

我们还得聊聊黄油加热器的事

We still have to talk about the butter warmer.

当阿伦·杰伊·斯塔格斯还是个小孩子时，他有很多可以自由探索的空间

When Arlen Jay Staggs was a little kid, he had a lot of room to wander.

无论你如何想象一个在阿拉巴马乡村长大的男孩，那就是八十年代的真实模样

Whatever you picture of a boy growing up in rural Alabama, that's exactly what it looked like in the eighties.

树林和小溪间到处都是小径，我们的父母从来不知道我们在哪儿

There were all of these trails through the woods and creeks, and our parents never knew where we were.

阿伦是三个男孩中最小的一个

Arlen was the youngest of three boys.

但他的哥哥们——保罗和汉克——仍然让他参与很多活动

But his older brothers, Paul and Hank, they still let him in on a lot of the action.

我们有个很棒的童年，特别是作为男孩，因为我们互相扔石头，用瓶装火箭互相射击

We had a great childhood, especially for boys, because we were throwing rocks at each other, shooting bottle rockets at one another.

我是说，那很危险。

I mean, it was dangerous.

男孩的把戏，互相扔石头。

Boy stuff, throwing rocks at each other.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像此刻你脑海中可能正在播放的八十年代电影那样，每当该跑回家的时候，阿伦总能远远听到他妈妈的声音。

And just like that eighties movie that's probably playing in your head right now, Arlen could always hear his mom's voice in the distance when it was time to come running home again.

我可能在半英里外的树林里，都能听见我母亲呼唤我的声音。

I could be half a mile away in the woods, and I could hear my mother's voice calling me.

她会走到后阳台直接大喊。

She would go out on the back deck and just yell.

就像一头狂野的母兽在树林里试图寻找她的幼崽。

It was like a wild animalistic mother calling her trying to find her young out in the woods.

随着阿伦渐渐长大，他开始渴望另一种自由。

As Arlen got older, he started to feel a need for a different kind of freedom.

他的父母信仰宗教且思想保守，他觉得自己并不完全属于他们的世界，尤其是当他意识到自己是同性恋时。

His parents were religious and conservative, and he felt like he didn't quite belong in their world, especially as he realized he was gay.

于是他决定与家乡保持一定距离。

So he decided to put some distance between himself and his hometown.

我记得开车去大学时，播放着U2乐队的磁带。

I remember driving to college and playing my u two cassette.

我记得自己当时放声高唱。

I remember seeing it at the top of my lungs.

我记得那些蜿蜒的道路，我毫无顾忌地急转弯飞驰。

I remember the roads were windy and taking those sharp curves just like, you know, with abandon.

我想那大概是我第一次感受到自由的时刻。

And I think that was kind of the first moment I felt free.

最终，阿伦来到了加利福尼亚。

Eventually, Arlen landed in California.

他向家人出柜了，而家人最终也接受了这一点。

He came out to his family, which in time they accepted.

后来他结婚了，按照自己的方式建立了生活。

Then he got married and built a life on his own terms.

但即便是多年以后，他对于作为那个离家的儿子意味着什么，仍怀有挥之不去的感受。

But even many years later, he still had lingering feelings about what it meant to be the son who left.

他告诉我，当他母亲开始追踪他的位置时，事情变得更加复杂了。

And he told me that when his mom started tracking his location, things got more complicated.

阿伦·杰伊·斯塔格斯，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Arlen Jay Staggs, welcome to Modern Love.

很荣幸能来到这里。

It is my pleasure to be here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

那么，阿伦，在阿拉巴马州这个关系紧密的家庭长大之后，你决定离开南方去加州生活。

So, Arlen, after growing up in this tight knit family in Alabama, you decide to leave the South and go live in California.

你母亲对此有何感想？

How did your mother feel about that?

她伤心欲绝。

She was devastated.

你知道，我父母最终在他们毕业的那所高中任教。

You know, my parents ended up teaching at the high school that they graduated from.

他们一辈子都生活在同一个家乡，这其中有某种非常温馨的东西，我为他们感到高兴。

They lived in the same hometown their whole lives, which there's something very sweet about that, and I love that for them.

但我觉得加州...我是说，距离上确实很远，但更重要的是思维方式和文化上，对他们来说简直是另一个世界。

But I think just California was so I mean, in distance, yes, it's far, but just in mindset and culture, it's so far away for them.

你为搬这么远感到内疚吗？

Did you feel guilty for moving so far away?

是的。

Yeah.

在某些方面，我至今仍有这种感受。

In some ways I still do.

就好像我们之间有过某种默契，而我打破了这种约定。

It's almost like there's an agreement we all had, and I broke that agreement.

尽管我们从未明确过这个约定，没人说过，你知道，我们从未坐下来约定说，在这个家里，你不准搬去加州。

Even though we never stated that agreement, nobody had ever said, you know, we never sat down and said, okay, in this family, you're not allowed to move to California.

大家都同意吗？

Does everybody agree?

是的。

Yeah.

但我心里明白我不该那么做。

But I I knew I wasn't supposed to do that.

能告诉我你最初是怎么开始和你妈妈共享位置的吗？

Can you tell me about how you first started sharing your location with your mom?

这是谁的主意？

Whose idea was it?

我记得是她的主意，但我完全没有抗拒。

I remember it being her idea, but I was not resistant to it at all.

德鲁是我丈夫。

So Drew is my husband.

我和他在佛罗里达有个度假屋。

He and I had a vacation rental in Florida.

我们住在圣地亚哥，但经常往返两地。

We lived in San Diego, but we would drive back and forth.

第一次长途驾驶时，我妈突然说：'你能打开手机定位让我看看你们到哪了吗？'

And the first time that we did it, my mom was like, you know, can you turn on your location on your phone so that we can see you?

我觉得这主意很棒，万一出事至少有人知道我们在哪。

So I thought this is a great idea because if something did happen, somebody would know where we were.

而且我觉得她通过追踪我们的日常行程获得了很大安心。

And I think she found a lot of peace in kind of following our daily progress.

对她来说，每天看我们开了多远其实挺有意思的。

It was kind of fun for her to, you know, see how far we got each day.

横跨美国大概需要四天车程。

And it took about four days to drive across the country.

她总会说：'我看到你们到阿肯色州了'，或者'你们今天开得真快'之类的话。

She would be like, well, I see you're in Arkansas, or it looks like you're getting close, or you made really good time today, or whatever.

但后来在某个时刻，和你妈妈共享位置开始变成了一个问题。

But then at some point, location sharing with your mom started to become kind of a problem.

能告诉我发生了什么吗？

Can you tell me what happened with that?

我想当我开始注意到她会看到我的位置然后编造出一个担忧时...嗯。

I think when I started to notice that she would see me in a location and then make up a concern about it Mhmm.

然后这就成了问题。

Then it became an issue.

有一次我带我的狗奇普去看兽医，那天晚些时候我妈妈打电话来问'奇普还好吗？'

So one time I took Chip, my dog, to the vet, and my mom called later that day and she was like, is everything okay with Chip?

我说'是的，他很好'

And I was like, yes, he's fine.

为什么这么问？

Why?

就是...为什么？你为什么要这么问？

Like, why and why are you asking that?

你知道些什么吗？

Do you know something?

我不知道，是的。

I don't Yeah.

知道

Know

然后她说，我只是注意到你今天去了兽医诊所，我担心发生了什么不好的事。

And she said, well, I just noticed that you were at the vet's office today, and I worried that something bad happened.

顺便说一句，他其实没什么问题。

And by the way, nothing was wrong with him.

那真的只是一次年度体检。

It was literally just like an annual checkup.

那是我第一次觉得，好吧，这有点太侵犯隐私了。

That was the first time I was like, okay, that's a little bit too invasive.

别再监视我了。

Stop watching me.

你知道的，我去宠物医院关你什么事。

You know, like it's none of your business that I'm at the vet.

所以我大概等了几天的样子，等到确定她已经上床睡觉了，阿拉巴马（Alabama））。

And so waited probably a few days and then just kind of once I knew she was had gone to bed and it was late in Alabama and maybe still early in California, I just, you know, discreetly unshared my location.

她注意到了吗？

Did she notice?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

不过她过了好一阵子才发现。

But but it took her a while.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我关闭了位置共享，大概两三个星期后她才说，嘿，我看不到你的位置了。

I turned it off, and maybe two or three weeks later, she was like, hey, I can't see your location anymore.

你知道发生了什么吗？

You know, what happened?

所以在那之后，我又重新开启了位置共享。

So after that, I turned location sharing back on.

然后有一天我在跑腿办事。

And then one day I'm running errands.

手机放在口袋里，不小心误拨了她的电话。

My phone was in my pocket, and I was unknowingly butt dialing her.

这种情况大概发生了七八次，顺便说一句，我对这种状况很熟悉，因为我的名字以A开头，所以我经常遇到这种事。

And I did this probably seven or eight times, which by the way, I'm very familiar with because since my name starts with a, this happens to me a lot.

因为

Because

我正在跟你说话呢，香蕉朋友。

I'm You're talking to banana, my friend.

没错。

That's right.

不。

No.

你也经常被误拨电话吗？

Do you get butt dialed a lot too?

我？是啊。

Me Yeah.

不过对我来说，我从来不会往最坏处想。

So but for me, I don't ever assume the worst.

我就直接把手机关掉之类的。

I just turn my phone off or whatever.

但当我回到车上时，我发现她——我想她甚至可能每次都回拨了，还给我发了短信问'怎么回事？'

But when I got back in the car and I realized that she had I think she had even maybe called back each time and she had texted me like, what's going on?

‘你为什么一直给我打电话？’

And why do you keep calling me?

所以我就给她回了个电话。

And so I called her.

她还编了个完整的故事，说她担心我被绑架锁在后备箱里，或者可能被扔在哪个沟渠里，而我唯一能联系她的方式就是误拨电话，但她可以

And she made up this whole story about how she was afraid that I had been kidnapped and locked in a trunk and or maybe I was in a ditch somewhere, and the only way I could communicate with her was like butt dialing for But she could

看到你的位置。

see your location.

她难道不能说

Couldn't she say

她看到我在山姆会员店。

She that you were in like a saw me She saw me in the Sam's Club.

所以我想她以为我被绑在停车场某辆车的后备箱里。

So I think she thought I was in the parking lot tied up in the trunk of a car.

你现在是觉得好笑，但听起来她当时真的吓坏了。

I mean, you're laughing now, but it sounds like she was really scared.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，不知道她对这个解读有多认真，但这就是她当时的理解。

Mean, I don't know how committed she was to that interpretation, but that was the interpretation she had.

而且在那时我明显感觉到她真的往坏处想了。

And and it was clear to me at that point that she's really going to a dark place about it.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我不知道知道我的位置对她有多大帮助。

And I don't know how much it serves her to know where I am.

之后，我又把位置共享关掉了。

And after that, I turned location sharing back off.

你是不是就这样开开关关位置共享功能，持续了好几年？

Were you just turning on and off and on and off and on and off your location sharing for, like, years?

大概有一年吧。

Maybe for a year.

好吧。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我通常会把问题归咎于技术。

I usually blamed it on technology.

那是我惯用的替罪羊。

That was my go to scapegoat.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

我会说，哎呀，我的手机肯定又更新了，或者你知道的，肯定是它自动关闭了我的位置共享。

Is I would say, well, I would say, oh my gosh, my phone must have updated again or, you know, it must have turned my location off.

我这就重新给你打开。

Let me turn that back on for you.

就像，我会怪iPhone。

Like, I would blame the iPhone.

我绝不会直接承认。

I would never say, yeah.

好吧，其实是我关掉的。

Well, I turned it off.

为什么？

Because why?

这是个需要思考的问题，因为我真的不知道。

This is one of those questions I have to think about because I don't know really.

我想着直接关掉比讨论这个问题更简单。

I guess it felt easier to just keep going through the process of turning it off than having a conversation about it.

按个按钮比坐下来谈'妈妈，我们聊聊界限吧'更高效。

It felt more efficient to press a button than to sit down and say, mom, let's talk about boundaries.

我们聊聊什么是可以接受的，什么是不可以接受的。

Let's talk about what's okay and what's not okay.

而且我离开家乡是有原因的。

And there's this history of I left where I'm from.

我离开了，我离开了家。

I left I left home.

所以我不知道是我自己背负了'没留下的坏儿子'的标签，还是她从来就不是因为看到我在兽医那里而担心Chip可能发生什么。

So I don't know if I just took on it like I was the bad son that didn't stay, or it was never about her seeing me at the vet and getting upset about what might or might not have happened to Chip.

这始终是关于那种未解决的、破裂的协议。

It was always about this unresolved kind of broken agreement.

这听起来不像是你妈妈对你说的话。

That does not seem like something your mom was saying to you.

对吧？

Right?

更像是你在对自己说这些话。

Like this was something you were saying to yourself.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

所以除了位置共享可能对她不再有帮助之外，我觉得这对你也同样没什么好处。

So in addition to location sharing maybe not being so helpful for her anymore, it strikes me that it also was not so helpful for you.

对吧？

Right?

比如，它让你对自己说话相当刻薄。

Like, it's making you talk quite unkindly to yourself.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

For sure.

但我真的很想理解你内心的这部分想法。

But part of you I really wanna understand this.

就是说，你内心有一部分觉得你有义务向她汇报你的行踪？

Like, part of you felt like you owed her this information about where you were?

对。

Yeah.

百分之百。

A 100.

我觉得我欠她的，特别是在我哥哥保罗失踪之后。

I felt like I owed it to her, I think, especially after my brother Paul went missing.

我们稍后继续。

We'll be right back.

阿伦，你能告诉我你哥哥保罗发生了什么吗？

Arlen, can you tell me what happened with your brother Paul?

我想，整个事件的催化剂是当我妈妈接到阿拉巴马州阿拉巴斯特警局的电话时，他们在65号州际公路上找到了我哥哥。

I guess the the catalytic moment or the the catalyst for all of it was when my mom got a phone call from the Alabaster, Alabama Police Department, and they had picked my brother up on Interstate 65.

他有相当严重的妄想症。

He had pretty extreme paranoia.

他听到脑海中有声音，并声称有人在追杀他而四处逃窜。

He was hearing voices in his head, and he was running from people that he claimed were trying to kill him.

要知道，接到这个电话让我非常震惊，因为保罗一直有些麻烦缠身。

And, you know, this was a very shocking phone call to get because Paul had always been a little troubled.

小时候，我只记得他经常被关禁闭，青春期时总是摔门而出，房间里还大声播放着八十年代的金属乐。

And as a kid, I just remember him being grounded a lot and lots of teenage door slamming and loud eighties metal music playing from his room.

这种状态在他一生中持续不断，你知道，他就像永远无法安定下来。

And that just kind of continued through his life, you know, like he was just constantly unsettled.

但他从未达到那种程度，你知道的，就是精神疾病那种程度。

But he was never at that level of, you know, a mental illness.

可以说那是第一个让我们所有人都意识到保罗身上发生了严重问题的时刻。

And so that was kind of the first moment that to kind of, in a sense, woke us all up to like something deeply troubling is going on with Paul.

你

Did

后来有弄清楚保罗到底发生了什么吗？

you eventually find out what was happening with Paul?

当时他被诊断为大麻诱发的精神障碍。

At the time, he was diagnosed with cannabis induced psychosis.

好吧。

Okay.

但我觉得不合理的是，根据我查阅的资料，大多数情况下这种症状虽然可能很严重，但通常会逐渐消退。

And what doesn't make sense about that to me is, from what I've read about that, is most cases they can be that severe, but then it kind of goes away.

症状会慢慢减轻。

It tapers off.

但他的情况却没有好转。

And his did not.

他的情况持续并恶化了。

His continued and even got worse.

当你说情况恶化时，能具体描述一下这意味着什么吗？

When you say things got worse, can you share a little bit about what that means?

是的。

Yeah.

起初情况有所好转，因为他服用了医生开的药，这起到了一定帮助。

He Well, they got a little better in the beginning because he They gave him some medication, which helped.

他在我父母家住了一段时间。

And he lived with my parents for a while.

我父母提出的条件是：只要他需要，就可以住在家里，但必须按时服药。

And the deal with my parents was, you know, they said, you can live in our home as long as you need to, but you have to take your medication.

有一天他突然说不想再吃药了。

And one day he just said, you know, I don't wanna take it anymore.

他要离开。

I'm going to leave.

然后他真的走了。

And he did.

后来呢？

And then what?

你知道他在哪里吗？

Did you know where he was?

不知道。

No.

我的意思是，我们会接到一些电话。

I mean, we would get these calls.

妈妈接到的第一个电话是从塔拉哈西打来的，那里的当局基本上是从某个池塘或沼泽里把他救出来的。

The first call that mom got was from Tallahassee and the authorities in Tallahassee had essentially rescued him from some kind of pond or swamp.

我记得他们提到他所在的水域里有鳄鱼。他总是把那些想杀他的人叫做暴徒。

I remember they mentioned that there were alligators in the body of water that he was And he always called the people that were trying to kill him the goons.

他声称那些暴徒在他皮肤上下了毒。

And he was claiming that the goons had put poison on his skin.

所以他当时在水里试图洗掉皮肤上的毒药。

So he was in that water trying to wash the poison off of his skin.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

然后他们接到一个来自德克萨斯州泰勒市的电话，是一家精神病院打来的。

And then they got a call from Tyler, Texas, and it was a psychiatric hospital.

护士和我妈妈进行了交谈。

And, you know, the nurse had a conversation with my mom.

我记得妈妈说护士的兄弟也有类似的病症。

And I remember mom said that her brother, they're like the nurse's brother also had a similar condition.

她说除非他们服药，否则真的无能为力。

And, you know, she was like, unless they take their meds, there's really nothing you can do.

我想那是妈妈接到的最后一个电话。

And that was the last call that mom got, I think.

不知道保罗在哪里是什么感觉？

What was it like not knowing where Paul was?

那对你情感上有什么影响？

What was that like for you emotionally?

我想说我当时对保罗有着深切的关心，真的很想出去帮助他。

I'd like to say that I had this deep concern for Paul and I really wanted to go out and help Paul.

但我觉得汉克和我都变得非常保护妈妈，因为她对保罗的担忧已经足以让所有人感受到，我开始看到她在那份失落中迷失自我。

But I think Hank and I both became very protective of mom because she was worried about Paul enough for everybody that I was starting to see her lose herself in that loss.

她会一遍又一遍地迷失在向我们讲述所有具体细节的过程中。

And she would get lost in telling us all the specific details over and over and over again.

我们会一直追溯到阿拉巴马州的阿拉巴斯特，精确复述警官在电话里说的话，医院接待员穿的衣服，甚至她在咖啡馆买的松饼是什么味道。

We would go all the way back to Alabaster, Alabama, and exactly what the police officer said on the phone, exactly what the receptionist at the hospital was wearing, exactly what the muffin tasted like in the cafe where she bought a muffin.

我想这是她在表达'这就是我们如何走到这一步的，我需要理解我是怎么失去儿子的'。

I think it was her way of saying this is how we got here, and I need to make sense of how I lost my son.

阿伦，在那之后不久，你的家庭又经历了一场突如其来的变故。

Arlen, not too long after that, your family experiences a really sudden loss.

能告诉我发生了什么吗？

Can you tell me what happened?

嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

2022年我父亲去做一个心脏手术，原本只是要更换一个支架。

My dad went in for a heart procedure in 2022, and he was just gonna have like a stent replaced.

这应该是个非常简单的手术。

It's supposed to be a very easy procedure.

你知道，他们甚至不需要用麻醉。

You know, they don't even use anesthesia.

但当手术完成后，他们装好了支架，他却突发心脏骤停，没能挺过来。

But when they were done with the procedure, they fixed the stent and he coded and he didn't make it.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

我真的很抱歉。

I'm so sorry.

谢谢。

Thanks.

这对你的家人来说真是太难熬了。

That is so much for your family to go through.

是啊。

Yeah.

记得在父亲的葬礼上，我和弟弟汉克都致了悼词。

Well, I remember at dad's funeral, my brother Hank and I both gave a eulogy.

我只记得中途停了下来，请求在场的众人一起为保罗祈祷。

I just remember stopping in the middle And I asked the congregation if we could pray for Paul.

我祈祷上帝能向我们显明他的所在。

And I prayed that God would show us where he is.

四个月后，他被发现死在拉斯维加斯。

And four months later, he was found dead in Las Vegas.

你是怎么得知保罗去世的消息的？

How did you find out about Paul's passing?

我接到了拉斯维加斯验尸官办公室的电话。

I got a call from the coroner's office in Las Vegas.

就在周二，接到了那个电话。

Like on Tuesday, get the call.

我妈妈的生日是周三。

My mom's birthday is Wednesday.

而感恩节就在周四。

And then Thanksgiving is on Thursday.

天啊。

My gosh.

于是我打电话给汉克说，我们得去告诉妈妈。

So I called Hank and I said, we need to go and tell mom.

当时我在佛罗里达。

I was in Florida at the time.

他则在纳什维尔。

He was in Nashville.

于是我上了车。

So I get in the car.

我们在阿拉巴马州的妈妈家碰面。

We meet at my mom's house in Alabama.

对了，我记得我打开了定位。

And, yeah, I remember turning on my location.

哦，是你在开车。

Oh, you were doing the drive.

是你在开车。

You were doing the drive.

是我在开车。

I was doing the drive.

我们本打算和她一起吃晚餐，庆祝她的生日，然后再告诉她。

And we were gonna have dinner with her, celebrate her birthday, and then tell her.

是啊。

And yeah.