我的男性友谊都去哪儿了？

这是你需要解读的头条新闻。

It's your headline to unpack.

这是你每周都要跟进的一个故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是你需要破解的Wordle谜题。

It's your Wordle to work through.

这是你需要追踪的团队动态。

It's your team to track.

这是你探索的三十六小时。

It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是你需要掌握的腌制秘诀。

It's your marinade to master.

这是你需要理清的观点。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是你需要升级的床垫。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

这是你了解圣母大学其他需求的日子。《纽约时报》。这是你需要理解的世界。更多信息请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame. The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

大家好，我是安娜。如果你喜欢我们的节目，我大胆猜测你可能也喜欢《纽约时报》的其他播客。所以我想告诉你《纽约时报》应用中的新收听体验。不得不说，这真的很棒。

Hey, everyone. It's Anna. If you're a fan of our show, I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume you're also a fan of other New York Times podcasts. So I wanna tell you about the new listening experience in the New York Times app. I gotta say, it's great.

我特别喜欢能滑动浏览不同播客的高光片段这个功能，这让找想听的内容变得特别容易。而且它不止有播客，还能听《纽约时报》的有声文章，对我终于能读完那些一直想读的长篇帮助很大。虽然我们这儿当然最爱音频，但这款应用远不止于听——比如你可以关注《现代爱情》专栏，这样就不会错过任何难忘的随笔或微小爱情故事。快去应用商店下载《纽约时报》应用，点击屏幕底部的'听'开始探索吧。

I love that I can swipe through highlight clips from different podcasts, which makes it so easy to find someone to start listening to. And it has more than just podcasts. It's also got narrated articles from the times that you can listen to, which I find to be very helpful for finally getting to those long articles I've been meaning to read. And even though, of course, we love audio over here, there's so much more to the app than just listening, Like how you can follow the Modern Love column so you never miss an unforgettable essay or tiny love story. So go to the App Store, get the New York Times app, and tap listen at the bottom of the screen to start exploring.

好了，这是今天的节目。

Alright. Here's today's episode.

此刻相爱。爱比一切都强大。为了爱。我能爱你胜过一切吗？爱。

Love now and. Love is stronger than anything. For the love Love. Can I love you more than anything? Love.

就是爱。爱。

Just love. Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。本期《现代爱情》节目中，我将对话作家萨姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森。他刚为《纽约时报杂志》撰写了题为《我那些深厚的男性友谊都去哪儿了？》的文章。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. This week, I'm talking to the writer Sam Graham Felsen. He just wrote a piece for the New York Times Magazine called where have all my deep male friendships gone?

并不是某天醒来突然发现'天啊我好孤独'，但确实有点像这样。我总以为'这只会发生在别人身上，我朋友多得是，怎么可能感到孤独'。

It wasn't like one day I woke up and was like, oh my god. I'm lonely. But but it was kinda like that. But I always thought like, oh, well, that's something that applies to other guys because I have a million friends. I can't imagine ever feeling lonely.

直到三十多岁的某天，我突然意识到：等等，我好像真的有点孤独。我妻子很棒，是最棒的倾听者——这也是我爱上她的原因。但有次她直接说：'兄弟，去找你朋友玩吧'。

And then, like, sometime in in my thirties, I'm like, wait a minute. I think I'm actually kind of feeling lonely. You know, my wife is a wonderful person, the best listener ever. That's why I fell in love with her in the first place. But, like, at a certain point, she's basically like, dude, just go hang out with your friends.

她说'打电话约他们啊'，我说'你说得对'。结果呢？我做了所有事，就是没找朋友。

Just call them and hang out with them. I'm like, you're right. You're right. Of course, then I didn't call them and hang out with them. And I did every single thing except for hang out with my friends.

萨姆告诉我，重新与朋友相处让他感到困难。为了理解这种感受，他决定写下来。需要说明的是，他妻子正是杂志的编辑。

Sam told me it felt difficult to just go hang out with his friends again. And to try to understand why it felt so hard, he decided to write about it. And full disclosure, his wife's an editor at the magazine.

我当时想：既然要写自己明明拥有深厚友谊却陷入孤独，那总该做点什么来改变现状吧。

I was like, look. If I'm gonna write a whole thing about how, you know, I somehow let myself slip into loneliness despite having all a a wealth of, you know, close friendships. I feel like I owe it to myself to try to actually do something about it.

我想了解山姆是如何让朋友们重新回到他的生活中，这对幸福感意味着什么，以及这如何改变了他对男子气概的理解。以下是我们的对话。山姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

I wanted to know what Sam did to get his friends back into his life, what it meant for a sense of well-being, and how it changed what he thought it meant to be a man. Here's our conversation. Sam Graham Felsen, welcome to Modern Love.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

我们今天要讨论你为《纽约时报杂志》撰写的这篇文章，标题是《我那些深厚的男性友谊都去哪儿了？》。我们会深入你的故事，但首先我想问，你之前感到过孤独吗？这种感受是全新的还是早有体会？

So we're here to talk about this piece you wrote for the New York Times Magazine. It's called where have all my deep male friendships gone? We'll get into your story, but I wanna start by asking, had you felt lonely before? Had you felt this kind of or was this a new

这完全是新体验。要知道，在我感到孤独之前，我一直自认为是个外向的人。年轻时我甚至有个问题——总是过度承诺，安排太多计划，最后不得不取消约会惹朋友生气。我翻出四年级成绩单时发现，老师当时居然这样写（现在想想很滑稽）：‘山姆是个过分活跃的交际花，恐怕我得剪掉他的翅膀了。’

It was totally new. I mean, you know, my my whole life until, you know, I became lonely, I saw myself as an extrovert. And and and one of my problems, like, when I was younger was, like, over obligating myself and making too many plans and then having to cancel on friends and having them get mad at me. And from a young age, I remember I found my report card from fourth grade, and my teacher it's really funny that teachers wrote stuff like this back then. She was like, Sam, he's way too much of a social butterfly.

天啊。没错，她真这么写了。但那确实就是当时的我。

I fear I may have to clip his wings. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah.

首先什么？

First of what?

我知道。她真就这么写的。可那就是真实的我。

I know. She literally wrote that. And but that's who I was.

当你还是四年级那个交际花时，友谊对你意味着什么？

What did friendship mean to you when you were that social butterfly in fourth grade?

四年级时我第一次体验到某种强烈到近乎坠入爱河的友谊。班上有个叫安德鲁的男孩——他是我见过的第一个会梳头抹发胶的孩子。天啊，太酷了对吧？在那之前所有男生都顶着一头乱发上学，就像《亚历山大糟糕透顶的一天》里那样。而安德鲁不仅用发胶，还穿着那种叫‘超变色’的T恤——对着吹气就会变色。

Fourth grade was when I really remember having a friendship that was so intense, it almost felt like falling in love. There was a there was a boy named Andrew in my class who he was the first kid who I had ever seen comb his hair and put gel in his hair. Oh my. Right? God, that's cool.

（笑）没错，那就是我当年的样子。

Before that, it was just like everyone woke up with bed head and went at least the boys did, went to school with crazy bed head, like Alexander's horrible no good day. Although And that was that was me. And and and then, like, you know, there was this kid who, you know, put gel in his hair, and he and he had these T shirts called hypercolor where if you blew on them, they changed color.

这是韩

This was Hang

九十年代初的潮流。他戴了块斯沃琪手表，我记得当时

on. This was a thing in the early nineties. And he had a Swatch watch, and I remember like

他要耍帅了。

He's gonna swag out.

他当时是？

Is he was?

我说的男人其实是个男孩。

And by man, I mean boy.

是的，一个九岁男孩。但我记忆犹新，那时我对时尚、酷这类概念毫无认知。看到这个孩子时我就想：我要成为他这样的人。

He was. Yes. Nine nine year old boy. But I remember vividly, like, I had no concept of what was fashion, what was cool, or anything like that. And I remember seeing this kid, and I was like, this guy I wanna I wanna be like this guy.

后来演变成我每天放学都泡在他家的状态。

And it ended up being this thing where I felt like I was at his house every single day after school.

没错。

Right.

对吧？我们整天形影不离。说来好笑——这事我多年没想起了——我们搞了个叫「宝贝奥运会」的活动，我俩都迷恋《 Married With Children 》里的克里斯蒂娜·艾伯盖特和《火箭手》里的詹妮弗·康纳利。

Right? We we were just, like, hanging out constantly. We it's funny. I hadn't thought about this in years, but we had this thing that we called the Babe Olympics, where Oh, no. Where where, like, both of us had a crush on Christina Applegate from from Married With Children or whatever, and and Jennifer Connelly from The Rocketeer.

我们会设计各种古怪比赛，赢家就能和詹妮弗·康纳利（当然是想像的）约会。比如一对一篮球赛，又比如一分钟内谁喝水最多这类荒唐事。我完全沉浸在他的世界里，带他进入我的世界，记忆中我们总是笑个不停...

And we would we would create these wacky competitions where the winner, you know, got to go on some fictional date with Jennifer Connelly or no. So, like, some of it would be sports, playing one on one basketball, but, like, some of it would be, like, who can drink, you know, the most water in one minute or, you know, like, these absurd And I just remember being absorbed in his world, introducing him to my world, and I just remember laughing all the time and and

我是说，除了他带你进入他的兴趣世界，你带他进入你的兴趣世界之外，正如你所说，你们还在共同创造属于你们关系的世界，对吧？我想再问一下，你说和这个叫安德鲁的男生最初是友谊，但感觉像坠入爱河。你当时那么年轻，还记得那种联系吗？能多描述些吗？

I mean, but what you're saying is in addition to the worlds, you know, of him introducing you to his interest, right, his world, you introducing him to your interest, you are creating, as you're saying, the world of your relationship. Right? And I wanna go back. You said this was a friendship, the first one with this guy, Andrew, right, where it felt akin to falling in love. And you're so young, but do you remember, like do can you tell me more about that connection?

是那种'我想时时刻刻和这个人在一起'的感觉吗？'我信任这个人'？这种情感背后的原因是什么？

Was it like, I wanna be with this guy all the time? I trust this guy? Like, what was behind that?

是的。我之所以将其比作坠入爱河，是因为我了解那种感觉。我很快就爱上了我妻子，记得当时十有八九的念头都围绕着这个人。

Yeah. So the reason why I compare it to falling in love is because, like, I know what it's like to fall in love. I I fell in love with my wife very quickly, and I remember just that feeling of, like, nine out of 10 of my thoughts are about this person.

百分之百。

100%.

懂吧？嗯。我只想和这个人腻在一起，迫不及待等放学后和他共处，完全如此。你知道，一起搞恶作剧电话，

You know? Mhmm. And and all I wanna do is hang out with this person, and I can't wait until the school day is over so that I have time with this guy Totally. You know, to go do our thing and make, you know, prank calls to

宝贝奥运会。奥运会。

Babe Olympics. Olympics.

然后回到宝贝奥运会进行第900轮比赛。说实话还有嫉妒感，如果他和别人玩，我就会想：他是不是更喜欢他们？嗯。最终导致我们友谊破裂的是他交了女朋友。

And go back to the Babe Olympics for round 900 of the Babe Olympics. And it was also the feeling of jealousy, frankly. If he was hanging out with other people, I started to be like, well, does he like those people more than me? Mhmm. And actually, what ended our friendship was that he got a girlfriend.

这完全...这很有趣地预示了后来生活中人们结婚后疏远朋友的情况。但他有女友后就彻底冷落了我。记得有天...

And that was totally And and it's it's an interesting kind of echo of what happens later in life when people get married and and and end up sidelining their friends. But he completely sidelined me after he got a girlfriend. I remember one day, like

那是什么时候？初中吗？还是...

And that was when? In middle school? Or

那是七年级的时候。后来有次他不接我电话，我就直接去他家敲门问：'嘿，怎么回事？'

That was that was in seventh grade. Okay. And I remember one day, you know, he he wasn't, you know, answering my calls or whatever. So I just showed up at at his door, and I was like, hey. What's going on?

我们为什么不，你知道的，一起出去玩。结果他女朋友当时在场，而我完全不知情。哇哦。那场景简直像电影情节。他做了那种当着我的面摔门的事，还说‘走开’之类的。

Why aren't we you know, let's hang out. And his girlfriend was there unbeknownst to me. Woah. And he literally it was like out of a movie. He did the thing where he shut the door in my face, and he's like, go away.

哇等等，停一下。那是什么感觉？

Wow. Wait. Stop. What did that feel like?

糟透了。那种感觉堪比被甩。是的，我还记得走回家的情景。他住的地方离我家大概步行七分钟，而我家在山上。

Horrible. It was it was akin to being dumped. Yeah. I do remember, like, walking home. He lived probably, like, a seven minute walk from my house, and I I lived on a hill.

我记得当时独自走回家爬那个该死的山坡，小时候走这段路总是累得双腿发软，每一步都像灌了铅。之所以这么艰难，是因为——没错，再次强调——我和这些朋友的亲密程度几乎像处于一段排他性恋爱关系中。

And I remember just, like, walking home up that damn hill, and my legs would always be so tired when I was a kid walking up this hill, and just, like, feeling like each step was heavy. And the reason why it was so hard is because, yeah, again, the degree of closeness I felt with these friends was almost like it almost felt like being in a monogamous relationship.

你描述的这种感觉让我很有共鸣。我好奇你学校其他人是否注意到这种强烈联结？他们怎么看？你觉得外界是如何看待的？

You're articulating a feeling that I think is that I resonate with. And, yeah, I'm curious if, like, other people in your school or whatever saw that intense connection. What do they think of it? How was it perceived, do you think?

我觉得那时候我们还小，恐同现象还没真正开始蔓延。不过到了七八年级之后，就不断听到各种恐同性质的侮辱言论。有些是玩笑，有些比玩笑恶劣得多。

I think at that point, we were young enough that the homophobia stuff hadn't start started to really creep up yet. Mhmm. But certainly, by the time I was in seventh grade, eighth grade, and beyond, it was it was totally it was constant hearing people make homophobic kind of like insults. And and some of it was teasing, some of it was like worse than teasing. Right.

因为人们看到我和某些男性朋友有多亲密。他们以前叫我‘同性恋山姆’，觉得‘这家伙对男性朋友这么痴迷，肯定是个基佬’。

Because people saw how close I was to some of my male friends. Mhmm. People used to call me Sam Gay. And who is this guy with who's so obsessed with his male friends? Let's call him gay.

懂吗？类似这种破事。但我记得当时有种叫‘诽谤本’的东西，算是原始社交媒体——就是那种黑白大理石纹封面的旧作文本。有人会做这么个本子，在每页写个人名...

You know? So, like, all of that stuff. But but I remember, like, at one point, there used to be this thing called a slam book where it was basically like a proto social media where it was those old composition notebooks with the marble black and white cover. Someone would would create one of these things, and they would write a name on each page of the notebook. Oh my god.

然后这个本子会在学校流传，大家匿名写下对那个人的看法。

And it would it would just float around school, and people would write anonymously whatever they thought about that person.

哇，这是实体版的...这根本就是《贱女孩》里的‘爆料本’啊！虽然是在引用电影，但确实如此。

Wow. It is a physical it's a burn book. I mean, this is a reference to Mean Girls, I think. But yeah.

我记得在那本八卦书里看到有人写，山姆和罗布像人猿泰山一样挂在对方的蛋蛋上荡来荡去。罗布是我最亲密的朋友之一。

And I remember, like, seeing in that burn book, in the slam book, somebody wrote, Sam and Rob are swinging on each other's nuts like Tarzan. Rob was one of my closest friends.

告诉我你和罗布是怎么认识的。他在你写的文章里占了很大篇幅。

Tell me how you and Rob met. He plays a really big part in the piece you wrote.

大概六年级时，我10或11岁。有个孩子邀请我去他的过夜生日派对。我特别讨厌参加这种派对——我现在可是把老底都揭了。

I think I was in sixth grade. I was 10 or 11. There was a kid who had invited me to a sleepover birthday party. I hated going to sleepover birthday parties. I'm really laying it all out on the line here.

这很可爱啊，我完全理解。

It's totally endearing. I'm like, I get it.

我讨厌这些派对是因为男孩们都爱看恐怖片，而我最怕恐怖片。就在一个月前，我刚参加过另一个过夜派对，他们放了《鬼娃回魂2》——现在想想蠢透了。但讲的是个被恶魔附身的玩偶用屠刀捅人的故事。

But I hated going to these parties because all the boys like to watch horror movies, and I hated horror movies. And literally, like, a month before, I had just been to another sleepover party where they had shown this movie called Child's Play two, which is so stupid. And I'm like, how could I have thought this movie was scary? But it's basically like this doll who is possessed by a demon and then ends up stabbing everybody with a butcher knife.

说实话这听起来挺吓人的。

To be honest, that sounds terrifying.

好吧。总之他们当时就在看这个电影，我又找不到其他房间躲。唉。最后我找到主人的电话打给我妈。

Okay. But anyway, that's the movie they were watching. And there wasn't another room that it could go into. Aw. So I just I just I found a I found his phone, and I called my mom.

我说我病了要回家。他们肯定看出我在装病，尴尬死了。我记得在车上哭得不行，既觉得丢脸又庆幸能回家。所以这次派对我实在不想去。

And I was like, I'm sick. Can you come pick me up? And I'm sure they could tell I wasn't sick, and it was totally embarrassing. And I remember crying in the car because I was so embarrassed, but I was also like, thank God, I can go home. So anyway, I really didn't wanna go to this sleepover party.

那天晚上11点，我们吃了堆成山的披萨，自制了圣代冰淇淋。然后大家都挤到他家娱乐室准备看电影。还没选片我就开始慌，心想必须逃出去。这时派对里另一个叫罗布的孩子突然说：'我不想看电影，想去隔壁玩任天堂。'

And it was probably 11PM, we'd eaten tons of pizza, own make your own ice cream sundaes, And and then everyone goes into the den in his house to to start watching a movie. And before they even picked the movie, I'm just like, I I gotta get out of here. Like, I started panicking. And and this other kid at the party, his name was Rob, was like, you know what? I don't feel like watching movies.

我立刻抓住机会跟过去。他在玩《最终幻想》，那个场景我至今难忘——简直是我人生的转折点。

I just feel like playing Nintendo in the other room. And I was like, oh, that's my opportunity. Totally. I just followed him in there, and he was playing a game called Final Fantasy. And I still remember it because it was it was like the seminal moment in my life.

然后他就说，兄弟，你想一起玩吗？我说，我已经玩了一阵子了。我就说，不，不，不。

And and he's like, dude, do you wanna play? Like, I've been playing for a while. I'm like, no. No. No.

你做你的事吧。懂我意思吗？顺便说一句，我父母是嬉皮士，我们那时候没有电子游戏。我连怎么玩都不知道，就只是看着他就很开心了。我都不记得我们聊了什么，但我们整晚都没睡。

Do your thing. Like, I you know? And by the way, my parents were hippies, and, like, we didn't have video games. I didn't even know how to I was just happy to watch him. And I don't even remember what we talked about, but but we stayed up all night.

我记得和他真的产生了共鸣，但同时也感觉他拯救了我。我不知道他是否意识到这一点，但我感觉他确实拯救了我。我对他充满了无比的感激。我很快意识到，这家伙和我以前交往过的任何人都不一样。他非常痴迷哲学。

And I remember really connecting to him, but also just feeling like he saved me. And I don't know if he was conscious that he'd done it, but I felt that he had saved me. And I felt this overwhelming gratitude towards him. And I I quickly realized this guy is unlike anyone I've ever hung out with before. He was really into philosophy.

他真的很痴迷

He was really into It

这么年轻就痴迷哲学。

was young to be into philosophy.

这么年轻就痴迷哲学。我们还有相似的兴趣。我们都疯狂迷恋波士顿凯尔特人队之类的。但他在智识和道德上的认真程度，是我那个年纪的其他朋友都无法比拟的。我就记得当时想，哇。

It was young to be into philosophy. He also had similar interests. We both were obsessed with the Boston Celtics and things like that. But he was intellectually and morally serious in a way that none of my other friends were at that age. And I just remember thinking like, wow.

这家伙活在不同的层次上，我也想成为那个层次的一部分。我当时非常在意自己酷不酷，懂吗？就是很努力想融入大家。而他恰恰相反。

This guy is operating on another level, and I wanna be a part of that level. I I was really concerned with being cool. Right? Like, I I was very concerned with, you know, trying to fit in. And he was the opposite.

他穿着卡其裤，真的除了他没人穿卡其裤。他看起来像个老头子。我就特别佩服，这家伙根本不在乎酷不酷。而我特别在意，但我想成为那种不在乎酷不酷的人。

Like, he he he was wearing khakis. Literally, nobody wore khakis except for him. And he looked like an old man. And I was just so impressed of, like, this guy doesn't care about being cool. I care deeply, but I wish I was the kind of person who didn't care about being cool.

这就是我想进入的那个世界的一部分。就是他的世界，一个真正做自己的世界。懂吗？那时候我还不太会做自己，是他帮助我成为了一个独立的个体。

And that was part of the world that I wanted to enter into. Was, like, his his his world of, like, just being a an individual. You know? And I wasn't quite an individual yet, and and he helped me to become an individual.

你知道吗，你在做一件我觉得很难的事，就是描述你为什么爱一个人。是啊。我是说，我好奇...你花了这么多时间和他在一起，向他学习。你觉得在这个阶段，你对友谊有了什么新的认识？

You know, you're doing something I think is very difficult, which is describing why you love someone. Yeah. I mean, I wonder you're having all of these you're spending so much time with him. You're learning from him. What do you feel like you were learning about friendship at this at this point?

我想Rob让我明白，友情在情感上可以和恋爱关系一样深刻，也能像亲情一样重要，这意义重大。但除此之外，我从这些深厚友谊中学到的是——我那时真的过得他妈太开心了。你知道吗？我其实特别讨厌上学。

I think I think Rob helped me see that, like, friendship a can be as serious emotionally as a romantic relationship. It can be as serious emotionally as a family kinship, it's a big deal. But I I think the other thing I just learned from these intense friendships is, like, I I I was having the time of my damn life. You know? Like, I was really did not like school.

我满脑子只想着放学后或暑假时，能整天和朋友们打篮球，深夜畅聊到很晚。他们让我快乐，让我感觉很好。是的，这就是我最大的收获。

And all I could think about was either after school or the summer when I could spend all day, you know, playing basketball with my friends and and and chatting with them late into the night. They made me happy. They feel good. Yeah. That's the thing I learned most from it.

就是...和别人在一起的感觉很棒。现在居然要特意说明这点很可笑，因为我得提醒自己。以前这是本能反应——兄弟，和哥们混在一起就是爽啊。

It's just like, it feels good to be with other people. And it's funny that I have to spell that out now because it's something I have to tell myself. Before, it was just intuitive. Dude, it feels good to hang out with other dudes.

听你说'过得他妈太开心了'时我真的很感动。这让我回到某些场景——那种纯粹的快乐与满足，朋友是你世界的中心，而且你也知道你是他们世界的中心。我好奇，你会和Rob或其他朋友深入聊感受吗？

I honestly feel, like, emotional when I hear you say I'm having the time of my damn life. It's putting me back to places. It's like, it's so joyful and fulfilling, and your friends are the center of your world. And not only that, you know that you're the center of theirs. I wonder, were you talking about feelings with with Rob or with other friends?

比如在那个层面进行更深层次的交流？

Like, were you going deeper on that level?

好问题。和大多数我接触过的男性一样，我历来觉得谈论感受很困难，尤其是和其他男性。所以答案是肯定的，但通常会从更抽象的话题切入，比如道德困境。我记得总是在深夜，只有我和某个朋友在场的时候。

It's a good question. I I definitely, like most men who I've met and talked to, historically have found it difficult to talk about feelings, particularly with other men. So I would say, like, the answer is yes. But I would say, like, it would start with talking about something in a more abstract way, like a moral dilemma. What I remember is it was always late in the night, just me me and this other friend.

以Rob为例——我们先看搞笑电影，半夜左右躺下。我睡在地板床垫上，我们插科打诨。

I'll use Rob as an example. We'd be hanging out, watch a funny movie. Right? Eventually, we get into bed around midnight or whatever. I'm lying on the cot on the floor, and we're joking around.

这个过程的第一个阶段是开玩笑。第二阶段可能是讨论想亲吻的女孩之类的话题。

And I guess the first stage of the arc is the joking around. The second stage, maybe, you know, talking about the girls we wanna kiss or whatever.

我觉得必须强调环境是黑暗的，你们看不到彼此。这其实很关键对吧？因为...

I think it's important to say it's dark. It's like you're not looking at each other. I actually do think that's important. Right? Because it's like

就像做心理治疗时躺在沙发上盯着天花板。对吧？你们不看着对方，都躺在床上。是的。

It's almost like being in therapy where you're lying on a couch looking up at the ceiling. Right? You're not looking at each other. You're both lying in bed. Yeah.

就在一个人快要睡着的时候，另一个突然说，对了，我还有件事想聊。然后话题又延续了一个小时。我记得通常是先聊了很多其他事情后，气氛足够放松时，我们才会谈起那些更沉重、更情绪化的话题。比如关于自我怀疑和让我自卑的事情，像是希望自己——听起来可能有点幼稚——希望自己更擅长运动。

And just as one is starting to doze off, the other one's like, by the way, there's one other thing I wanna talk about. And then it goes on for another hour. So I remember it would be like after talking about a lot of other stuff, then feeling loose enough, that's when we would talk about the heavier, more emotional things. But insecurities and the things that I felt bad about myself, like wishing that I don't know. It sounds trivial, but wishing that I were better at sports.

你会对朋友说'我爱你'吗？

Would you ever say I love you to your friends?

不会。真的不会。即使是现在，我也希望能自然地说出口，但千载难逢才会说一次，这对我来说始终很难。而我妻子就经常对朋友说爱她们。

No. No. No. And I mean, even now, I would like to be able to say that, but and I say that once in a blue moon, but it's something that I struggle to do. And my wife says she loves her friends all the time.

这对她来说毫不费力。但没错，我们不会...不会说这种话。

It's not hard for her. But yeah. No. No. We wouldn't wouldn't say that.

如果没有言语表达，你们之间是否有其他表达爱意的方式？

Did you have a way that you expressed your love for one another, if not in words?

你知道，我们不会拥抱。当然也不会牵手、拥抱之类的那种肢体接触。因为当时始终有种意识在提醒着，你懂的...

You know, there wasn't like hugging. There wasn't like certainly wasn't like holding hands, hugging, any any of that kind of stuff. It was because there was still this consciousness of like, you know

就是你提到过的《贱女孩》里那种忌讳。

The burn book that you mentioned.

对。在那个年纪，你绝对不想让别人觉得你们不只是朋友关系。所以即便私下独处时，你们也会刻意在沙发上坐得比实际需要的距离远一点。

Yeah. You don't want you don't want anyone to perceive you as being something other than friends at that age, you know? So even even in private, you're gonna sit a little bit further away on the couch than you need to.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，没错，当时...当时的情况就是这样。

So, yeah, that's that's that's just just how it was.

但看起来你似乎早就知道。你知道你们之间存在着深厚的友谊，实际上还有一种爱。

But it seems like you knew. You knew that there was a deep friendship and in fact a a love there between you all.

是的。而我之所以——再次强调——认为这是爱，是因为这些亲密朋友在我脑海中占据的空间。没错，我确实花了很多时间思考，比如皮蒂会喜欢这首歌吗？嗯。

Yeah. And the reason the reason why, again, I think of it as love is just the the amount of mental space these close friends occupied. Yeah. It was it was really spending a lot of time thinking, Petey like this song? Mhmm.

本尼会喜欢我刚发现的这家披萨店吗？就是不断地以这种关系角度思考，我能与朋友分享什么？懂吗？下次什么时候能见到这个朋友？

Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered? Just constantly thinking, like, in terms of my relationships, what can I share with a friend? You know? When can I next see this friend?

嗯。你曾想过会和这些朋友永远保持友谊吗？

Yeah. Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?

是啊，当然。

Yeah. Yeah.

稍后回来，萨姆的友谊经历了什么？请继续收听。那么萨姆，我真的很想深入了解大学毕业后发生了什么，因为我猜情况不会是你一毕业，友谊就突然消失了。但随着年龄增长，步入成年后，某些变化确实发生了。在你二十多岁中期，毕业后那段时间，你的友谊状态是怎样的？

When we come back, what happened to Sam's friendships? Stay with us. So, Sam, I really wanna dig into what happened after college because I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden, you know, your friendships disappeared. But something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood. What were your friendships like in sort of your mid twenties after you left, after you graduated college?

刚毕业时棒极了，我单身住在纽约。和不同朋友合租过好几处公寓，那基本上就是大学生活的延续——每天熬夜到凌晨，啤酒大麻不离手（可能两样都来），外卖吃得一塌糊涂。记得二十出头那会儿，大概二十五六岁时，情况开始转变。

Immediately after college, they were amazing because I was single living in New York. So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends. And and that was like, you know, basically an extension of college because it was, you know, staying up super late every night, often, you know, with beers or weed or whatever, probably both, and tons of takeout that was terrible for us. And, you know, just I I remember, like, again, having the time in my life in my early twenties after college. Like and it was, like, somewhere around, like, 2526 that things began to shift.

那时候很多朋友和我都意识到：咱们得振作起来了，对吧？就像那种——没错。

That was, like, when a lot of my friends and me started to be like, well, we need to get our shit together. Right? There was like it was like this Exactly.

这就是所谓的「重整人生阶段」。

But It's the get your shit together years.

完全正确。变化就这样开始了：有朋友去读法学院，有的上医学院，大家纷纷开始认真规划人生。越来越多人离开纽约。

Exactly. So that started happening. I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school. So this this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together. People are, like, leaving New York.

是的。于是这种情况开始出现。然后更大的变化，当然，我认为最重要的是，人们的关系变得越来越认真。我在大学时有个女朋友，我们决定同居。所以现在我正从和朋友同住过渡到和恋人一起生活。

Yeah. And so that starts to happen. And then the bigger thing, of course, the biggest thing I would say, is people started their their relationships started to get more and more serious. So I had a girlfriend in college, and we decided to move in together. So so now I'm going from, like, living with friends to living with my romantic partner.

和朋友住的话，大多数时候你不需要向他们报备任何事情。你可以随心所欲做任何事对吧？而且和朋友住时，碗碟可能堆着不洗，我们都是邋遢鬼，但完全不在乎。

And with friends, for the most part, like, you know, you don't really have to, like, check-in with them about anything. You could do whatever the hell you want. Right? Also, like, with friends, it's like none of the dishes are getting done, and we're both slobs, and, like, we don't care. But, like Totally.

但恋爱同居时就不一样了，现在你得认真对待家务。你们真正共享空间，共同建立家庭。做什么计划都要和伴侣商量。

When you're in a romantic thing, it's like, alright. Now you gotta take the chores more seriously. You have to, like you're really sharing a space Yeah. And, like, building a home with somebody. And, you know, so you're you're running your plans by by your partner.

就这样逐步和伴侣同居后，外出活动变少了——因为你已经和伴侣在一起了。外出社交很大程度是为了邂逅新对象，而现在这个动机不存在了。

So so little by little, you move in with your partner. You are going out less because you already are with your partner, and, like, a big part of going out is like, oh, well, maybe I'll meet the person tonight, you know, at the bar or whatever. And and you don't have that anymore.

某种驱动力。

Of a drive.

没错。当你和此生挚爱朝夕相处时，就会开始产生这种想法：我还需要朋友干什么？我在这里就拥有一切了不是吗？

Yeah. And, you know, when when you're with, like, you know, the the love of your life and you can see them whenever you want, this idea starts to creep in. Well, like, what do I even need my friends for? Like, I got everything right here. Right?

我有深聊的伴侣，还能一起做其他事。对，所有需求都能在一个人身上满足。

I have, like, somebody who I love to talk to. Also get to do other stuff with them. Exactly. Right. And and it's all in the same package.

而且，你知道

And, you know

我能在这之前打断一下吗？当你和后来成为妻子的女友同居，友谊慢慢——我不想说变得不重要，但可能优先级降低时，你当时意识到这个变化了吗？

Can I can I pause you on this before that? It's like, when this was happening, this moving in with with your partner who becomes or your girlfriend, rather, who becomes your wife, and this sort of slowly I don't wanna say like, the friendships becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority, were you aware of that?

我当然意识到了，因为有些朋友为此抱怨我。比如"看看山姆，有了女朋友同居后就没空理我们了"之类。说实话，当时我并没有强烈地想念朋友们。

I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it. Oh, look at Sam. Like, you know, now that he's got you know, he lives with his girlfriend, like, doesn't have time for us anymore. You know, that kind of thing. I was I mean, the honest truth is that at the time, I didn't consciously miss my friends that much.

我当时特别兴奋能和恋人在一起，全神贯注地想要经营好这段关系，把自己的生活打理得井井有条，诸如此类的事情。

I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and, like, so focused on trying to crush it and getting my shit together, all that stuff

嗯。

Yeah.

说实话我根本没在意，反而对朋友们用愧疚感绑架我很恼火。我心里想：哥们儿，看开点行不行？去交个自己的女朋友别来烦我。当然我没真这么说，但差不多就是这类想法。

I wasn't really if anything, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt tripping me. I'm like, just get over it, dude. And I e, get your own girlfriend and leave me alone. Right? I didn't literally say that, but I was thinking something along those lines.

是啊。变得成熟就意味着要找个恋人，而不是整天和朋友们瞎混。好像只有不再和兄弟伙玩耍，才算是真正的男人。

Yeah. Becoming mature involved getting a romantic partner and not goofing around with your friends. Like, you're not really a man unless you, like, stop hanging out with your friends.

或者说专注于...对，专注于你爱的这个人。这让我想到我们在节目里讨论过的——人生早期阶段，你从不同人身上获得不同需求：从朋友那里找乐子，从某个人那里获得情感支持，和另一个人打篮球。后来你的焦点逐渐收窄，遇到深爱的恋人后，情感需求、身体亲密和娱乐活动都集中到了这一个人身上。

Or, like, hone in yeah. Or hone in on this person who you love. I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we we sort of talk about this on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life. You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy. And then it's like, it's just sort of your focus narrows, and you meet this romantic partner who you love, you love deeply, and sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets narrowed to sort of one person.

这描述准确吗？听起来你把所有重量都压在恋爱关系上，友谊反而像种干扰。这差不多是我从你话里听出的意思。

Does that feel accurate? It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kinda seemed like a distraction. It's almost what I'm hearing you say.

没错。朋友几乎成了奢侈品。就像...如果我连续两周不出门玩乐，健康饮食，不深夜买醉，当个体贴的伴侣，那之后我才会放纵一下。简直像对待垃圾食品的态度。

Yes. They almost felt like a luxury. Like, it's like, okay. If I spend two straight weeks not going out, eating healthy, not boozing late into the night, and being a nice partner, then, like, I'll indulge. It's almost like having junk food or something.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。罗伯这段时间在干嘛？当你和恋人同居时，他那边是什么情况？你们还有联系吗？

Yeah. Where was Rob during all this? Like, when you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him? Were you guys in touch?

罗伯大学毕业后也搬到了纽约。后来某个阶段他回了波士顿。我们仍会通电话，还互相写长邮件——那种三五千字的长篇邮件。哇。

So so Rob also moved to New York City and after college. At a certain point, he moved back to Boston. And we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these long emails. We would write each other three or four or 5,000 word emails. Wow.

哇。是啊。他们中有些人在情感上真的非常成熟

Woah. Yeah. And some of them were really emotionally mature

你们在聊什么

What were you talking

以一种令人惊讶的方式。你知道，我因为你做的这件事真的受伤了。我觉得你没有充分考虑到你伤害我的方式。这是我的感受。哇。

in a surprising way. You know, I was really hurt by this thing that you did. You know, I don't feel like you you fully accounted for the way that you hurt me. Here's what my experience was. Wow.

然后回信说，我听到了。但是，你知道，像这样的交流，比我现在和男性朋友的互动方式成熟得多。但我们直到二十五六岁还在那样沟通。现在没人再写那种邮件了，因为现在大家都用WhatsApp发简短的消息。不过确实如此。

And then writing back, I hear that. But, you know, stuff like like, stuff that is way more mature than, like, the way that I now interact with my male friends. But we were still doing that into our into our mid twenties. And no one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what, obviously, everyone does, is WhatsApp ing each other, you know, short little things. But but yeah.

所以罗布当时在波士顿。那时候，我很多最好的朋友都已经分散各地了。

So Rob Rob was Rob was in Boston. And, yeah, at that point, like, many of my best friends had dispersed by then.

然后生活继续向前。告诉我接下来发生了什么。

And then life continues to happen. Tell me tell me what came next.

然后结婚了。

Then get married.

恭喜。谢谢。

Congratulations. Thank you.

婚姻就像是恋爱关系的加强版，因为你会想，现在我结婚了。当然没有明文规定说结婚后就不能见朋友，但有种内化的观念认为，既然成了丈夫，就应该多待在家里而不是和朋友外出。

Marriage is just like the relationship thing, but on steroids because you're like, well, now I'm married. So, like I mean, of course, there were no, like, actual rules saying, well, you can't go see your friends now that you're married. But there's this internalized idea. It's like, well, you know, now that you're a husband, you should be you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends.

你从哪学到这种观念的？我是好奇，是谁或什么地方给了你这种信息？

Where did you learn that from? Like, where were you who or what or where were you getting that message from? I'm just curious.

我想我能给出的最佳答案是，那纯粹是一种感觉。这种感觉源自多年观看电影、电视剧以及接收各种信息积累下来的氛围，比如男孩该做什么、男人该做什么。而一个成年男人如果还总和朋友混在一起，就会被视为长不大的孩子。对吧？是的。

I think I think the best way I can answer that is that it was it was just vibes. It was like vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about, like, this is what a boy does, and this is what a man does. And a a grown man who continues to, like, hang out with his friends is a man child. Right? Yeah.

一个成熟男人理应要么在家陪妻子，要么在外打拼赚大钱养家。明白吗？这种观念会通过各类文化输入反复强化，就像在告诉你：生活就该是这样。

A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing and making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot. Know, that Right. That that's that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from from these various, like, cultural inputs. Right? Like, this is the way it's supposed to be.

等到有了孩子，突然间你就真的忙得不可开交。

And then having kids, all of a sudden, now, you actually are insanely busy.

没错。你懂我意思——虽然我说得好像很懂，但其实我还没孩子。

Right. You get it. I mean, I say right like I know, but have not any kids yet.

你会

You get

懂的。是啊。

it. Yeah.

你会忙到发疯。这辈子第一次真正意义上不能为所欲为。结婚后还算有点自由，只是对伴侣不礼貌。但有了孩子还任性的话，孩子可能会饿死。

You're you're insanely busy. For the first time in your life, you you you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want. Right. You you kinda can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner. But, like, if you do whatever you want when you have a kid, like, the kid will starve and die.

对吧？比如我完全没预料到的是，要做堆积如山的餐具和衣物清洗，还有永远收拾不完的残局。外加连续几年睡不好觉。抱歉吓到你了。

Right? Like, you can't you know, the thing I was not prepared for among many things was, like, just the amount of dishes and laundry that I was doing. Just, like, endless amounts of cleaning up. And and then you're not sleeping for years. Sorry to scare you off from having kids.

不会。这些信息很有价值。

No. It's good. That's good to hear.

你很快...其实说习惯是假的。那时确实没空见朋友，结果变成我总在拒绝邀约，或主动疏远联络——因为实在疲于应付，晚上根本不想出门。

You you quickly well, I say you get used to it. You don't get used to it. So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point. But what what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more or just, like, not reaching out to friends as much because I I was genuinely swamped. And I was I was tired, and I didn't wanna go out at night.

本想试着睡个好觉什么的。对吧？但真正开始侵蚀我友谊的部分是，好吧。随着孩子的情况逐渐好转。比如，他们学会了自主入睡。

Wanted to try to get a good night's sleep or whatever. Right? But the part where it started to get truly, like, corrosive to my friendships was, okay. Things start getting a little bit easier with the kids. Like, they get sleep trained.

现在我睡得更好些了。生活也更有规律，知道怎么更快地洗衣服，手头也有了更多空闲时间。但是，哎呀，我已经好几个月没和朋友聚了。我甚至还记得怎么和朋友相处吗？我们还能聊些什么呢？

Now I'm sleeping better. I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster, and, like, I do have a little bit more free time on my hands. But, uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend. Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore? Like, what are we even gonna talk about?

好的。这正是我想关注的。就像，你是否曾在育儿和义务的混沌中抬头惊觉——当然这些都是正当的事——然后突然想到：天啊，我已经好几个月没见罗伯（或其他朋友）了。这种醒悟是如何产生的？当时是什么感觉？

Okay. That's what I wanna focus on. It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up amidst the blur of of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course, and said like, oh my god. It's been months since I've seen Rob or insert other friend here. Like, how did that realization come to you, and what did it feel like?

这个嘛，我开始和妻子开玩笑说：看看我，都快成了那种典型的孤独美国男性数据点了。但当时我还把这当玩笑，没太当真。

Well well, I I started joking around with my wife. You know? Look at me. I'm, like, becoming one of these cliche data points of, like, the lonely American male. But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously.

直到某个时刻，我才突然意识到：等等，这其实是个问题。和许多新手父母一样，我和妻子会为育儿问题争吵，比如谁承担的责任更少，谁又该多分担些。这正是我本该联系其他经历相同处境朋友的时刻——我有好几个朋友几乎和我同时有了孩子。

And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like, oh, wait a second. This is actually a problem. Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like, who did the late you know, who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this? And it was it was exactly the kind of emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who were going through the exact same thing that I was going through. Because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did.

但我没有联系他们。特别是当我和妻子刚吵完架时，我无人可倾诉——难道要再和妻子抱怨吵架有多难受吗？

And I wasn't reaching out to them. I had no one to especially if, like, my wife and I were in a place where, you know, we had just gotten into an argument or something like, what am I gonna do? Just, like, talk to my wife about how hard it was that got

吵架后？我们具体说说这个例子。你会拿起手机想给朋友发消息或打电话，然后却...带我完整走一遍这个心路历程，你当时会怎么做？

into an argument? Let's take that Yeah. Sort of example. Would you like go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like, I mean Like, take me through that thought process. What would you do?

说来好笑，我会拿起手机想着'我要给朋友发消息看看能不能聊聊'，接着就开始犹豫：'真要聊这个吗？'然后想'朋友自己也有烦心事，何必听我抱怨'，最后——'咦，这个播客更新了'，点击。结果我听了大量播客而非联系朋友。这听起来像老套剧情，但确确实实发生在我身上。

I mean, it's funny. I would like go to my phone, be like, I I'm gonna text my friend and see if he's around to talk. And then I would be like, do I really wanna get into it? And then I'd be like, do I really wanna impose my whining on my friend who's also got his own shit going on and, like, you know, you know what? Oh, look.

最终我听了无数播客而不是给朋友打电话。这感觉像是世上最老套的事，但确确实实发生在我身上。

There's a new episode of this podcast. Click. And then I end up listening to a podcast. And I just ended up listening to a tremendous number of podcasts instead of calling friends. That is that is act like, it's it's feels like the most cliched thing ever, but that is actually what happened to me.

告诉我你当时转向哪些节目？你宁愿听什么也不愿给朋友打电话？

Tell me what show what what shows you were turning to? What were you listening to instead of calling a friend?

所以我最初其实是听了一些关于冥想的播客，因为我听说冥想对人有好处，而且当你

So I started out actually listening to, like, podcasts about meditation because I had heard that meditation was good for you and, like When you

有小孩的时候，确实如此。

have small kids, certainly.

当然。然后呢，你知道，就开始深入——我不会称之为兔子洞，但后来我开始听乔·罗根的播客，因为他几乎请过所有领域的嘉宾上节目。

Of course. And and then, like, you know, started going I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole, but I, you know, I started like eventually, like, I started listening to the Joe Rogan experience because he just has had everyone on his show.

而且他一聊就是四个半小时。

And he's talking for, like, four and a half hours.

对啊对啊，他能聊很久很久。但他会邀请天体物理学家上节目，也请过迈克尔·波伦——我刚读完他的书，特别想听他在节目里多说些观点。

Yeah. Yeah. He's talking for a long, long, long time. But but, you know, like he'd have astrophysicists on his show. He'd have Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read and really wanted to hear more from Michael Pollan on his show.

他还请过斯坦福教授讲多巴胺和成瘾科学。所以我听他的节目就是想获取些生活技巧之类的东西。

He he had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and and and addiction science. And, you know, I so so I would I would listen to his shows just to try to pick up whatever, life hacks or whatever.

完全理解。

Totally.

再说回初衷，我这么做是因为感到不堪重负、孤独，有这些情绪时，我没有选择联系朋友倾诉，而是想着：我可以自己解决这些问题——听听播客就能找到答案。

And again, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings. And instead of relating to other people and calling a friend Mhmm. I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own. I'll I'll just listen to some podcasts, I'll get the answers from the podcast. Yeah.

我一个人就能搞定。

I can do this all on my own.

是啊，这种孤狼式的自给自足心态对吧？就是情绪低落时，想通过倾听学习来独自解决问题。

Yeah. I mean, it it's this kind of rogue self sufficiency. Right? Like, I'm not feeling so good emotionally or or or whatever, and I want to address this. But, you know, I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working There on

罗根那期节目里有句话特别打动我，大意是说：别找借口了，像个男人一样振作起来，你懂的。

was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically, like, stop making excuses, man up, you know.

是啊。

Yeah.

我用的是带引号的'像个男人'。但意思是，现在改变生活最简单的方式——所有播客都这么说——去健身。立刻去锻炼。停下胡思乱想。

I'm using that in air quotes. But like, man up and basically, the easiest thing you could do right now to change your life, all of these podcasts said this, go work out. Go workout. Stop. Get out of your head.

举他妈的铁。对吧？他们全都这么说。我当时就觉得，哦，有意思。

Pump some goddamn iron. Yeah. You know? And and they all said this. And and I was like, oh, that's interesting.

或许我该试试。只要照顾好身体，不仅会更健康，生活的其他方面也会跟着顺起来。

Like, maybe I should try that. If you just take care of your body, not only are you gonna get healthier, but everything else in your life is gonna fall into place.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得这种说法之所以特别吸引我，某种程度上是因为，尽管坚持锻炼和举重很难，但我潜意识里知道这比深度的情感疗愈简单多了。所以我就想，好吧，试试看。结果我三十七八岁到四十出头那几年，所有空闲时间都在干嘛？全在健身。

I think in a way, part of the reason why it appealed so much was it's like, I knew that even though it's really hard to exercise all the time and lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work. So I was like, well, alright. I'll just try that. And it was like, what was I doing in my late thirties and early forties every spare moment I had? I was exercising.

参加CrossFit训练，冒着冰雨在展望公园跑步。就因为我总觉得，至少这样做能...怎么说呢...战胜那些孤独感。

I was going to CrossFit. I was running outside in Prospect Park through freezing cold rain. Yeah. Because, you know, I had this idea that, like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to, like, basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having.

哇。原来如此。所以是...用体力消耗来转移情绪。

Wow. Yeah. And and and so physical sublimation. Yeah.

本质上就是那种观念——生活是用来征服的，不是用来享受的。

And it was it was the idea basically that, like, life was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed.

我是说，这也是一种孤独的运动，就像去举起这个东西。当它变得容易时，就举更重的。

I mean and it also is a it's a solitary it's like, go and lift this thing. And then when that gets easy, lift it heavier.

是啊。

Yeah.

改变的力量在于你自己，这仍然非常个人化、内向。所以我明白为什么它会吸引人。我想知道，这是你有意识的选择吗？转向这些播客或健身之类的事情，而不是朋友？你意识到自己在往那个方向转移吗？

The power is within you to change you, and it's still very, like, individual focused intrapersonal. So I can see why it would appeal. I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your end to to turn, like, towards these podcasts or or working out or whatever instead of friends? Like, you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way?

我不认为我当时意识到了。嗯。我想我还在告诉自己，你知道，你没时间交朋友因为你太忙了。我也在否认自己感到孤独。对吧？

I don't think I was aware of it. Mhmm. I think I think I was still telling myself, you know, you don't have time for friends because you're so busy. I was also in denial about being lonely. Right?

我只是知道我感觉不好，我想感觉好一点。我就想，哦，如果我锻炼，我会感觉好。确实暂时感觉好了。他们承诺的内啡肽出现了，确实来了。

I just knew that I felt I felt bad, and I wanted to feel good. And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good. And I did feel good temporarily. There were the endorphins that that that they promised me would happen. They came.

完全同意。我认为这是一个非常重要的点。我真的觉得我们仍然对自我认定为孤独感到不适，甚至过敏，因为承认这一点不仅对自己，而且大声说出来都非常脆弱。所以首先，谢谢你这么说。但我理解为什么会被这些层面所掩盖，比如‘我不是那种会感到孤独的人’。

Totally. I think that's a really important point. And I'm I really think that there is still something very icky and, like, we're allergic to self identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud. So first of all, thanks for saying that. But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of, I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely.

而且，看，文化中有这么个东西叫‘incel’。对吧？非自愿独身者。那个孤独的家伙坐在他妈妈的电脑前。

And also, like, look, there's this whole thing in the culture of the incel. Right? The involuntary celibate. Right? The lonely guy sitting in his mom's basement on his computer.

这就是孤独男人的刻板印象。我觉得每个感到孤独的男人都害怕被归为那一类。

Like, that's the stereotype of of the lonely man. And I think I think every man who feels lonely is, like, terrified of being grouped in with that.

真有趣。

So interesting.

是啊。就像，如果我承认我孤独，那么，你知道，人们会不会认为我是某种incel怪胎之类的？对吧？所以我觉得这也是原因之一。

Yeah. It's like, if I if I admit that I'm lonely, then, you know, are people gonna think I'm some kind of incel freak or whatever? Whatever? Yeah. So I think that's a part of it.

你会用尽所有形容词，唯独不提‘孤独’这个词。

And you're gonna use every adjective except for lonely.

你在害怕什么？比如当你本想打电话给朋友却转去听播客时，你担心会发生什么？是什么阻止了你？

What were you afraid of in calling you know, when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast? What were you what were you worried would happen? Like, what was stopping you?

我怕朋友觉得我太依赖别人。我不是那种‘兄弟情’类型的人。我在一个超级女权主义的家庭长大，但即便如此，我也深深内化了一个观念：男人展现脆弱就等于不够男人。我只是不想失去男子气概。

I was afraid that my friends would think that I was needy. I'm not like a bro. I grew up with, like, a super in a super feminist household. Even I had so deeply internalized the idea that showing weakness as a man is tantamount to not being a man. And I just didn't want to not be a man.

是的。我害怕如果打电话说‘嘿兄弟，我真的好孤独，独处让我很难过，我只是需要告诉你这些’，他们会反应说‘天啊，什么鬼？’

Yeah. I was afraid that if I called and said, hey, man, like, I'm I'm really lonely, and it makes me sad to be alone. And, you know, I just needed to tell you that. I was afraid that they'd be like, oh, god. What?

‘这也太软弱了吧？开什么玩笑？’因为你知道，我早已被社会驯化得认为——除非是凌晨四点熬夜后的睡衣派对——男人之间主要的相处方式

That's so soft. Like, are you kidding me? Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically, like, the the main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4AM and you've been warming

‘对’

up Right.

往往需要大量酒精催化。

A lot at a sleepover party.

没错。

Right.

而男性表达情感的主要方式，据我观察，只有两种是被认可的：插科打诨和愤怒。对吧？就像你只能...

And and the main way of just, like, emoting generally as a man, I find, like, there are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger. Right? Like, you're allowed to

真有意思。

So interesting.

你可以和其他男人打架，但不能拥抱一个男人。所以要么允许我愤怒，要么允许我开玩笑。如果我打电话给朋友，真诚地谈论我心中的悲伤之类的事，他会觉得我——你知道的——我可以用很多贬义词来形容自己不够男人。

You're allowed to fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude. So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around. So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere and talking about, like, the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he gonna think that I'm, like, you know, I could use many different derogatory ways to say less of a man.

这真有意思，非常感谢你分享这些。不过我在想，你提到年轻时曾和朋友们有过那些深刻的情感交流。特别是你和罗伯互发的那些邮件，你说过罗伯是你最亲密的朋友之一。

That's so interesting, and I really appreciate you laying it out. But, you know, I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger. You had all these deeply emotional conversations with your friends. I'm thinking specifically about those emails you and Rob sent to each other. You said that Rob was one of your closest friends.

你们后来还有联系吗？这些年你们的关系有什么变化？

Were you in touch with him at all? Like, how had your relationship changed over the years?

现在罗伯在北卡罗来纳做博士后，显然比波士顿更远了。我和他主要通过一个持续了近二十年的群邮件聊天保持联系。这些年我越来越少单独打电话给他，都是通过这个群聊和他还有其他朋友交流。这个邮件列表里还有些我们称之为'小组'的分支。

At this point, Rob is doing a postdoc fellowship in North Carolina. So even further away than Boston, obviously. I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that we've had going now for like almost twenty years. And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this through this group chat, calling him less and less and less over the years. A subset of this email list, there are, like, kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list.

比如健身小组，那些喜欢——算是小圈子

There's the fitness caucus, the guys who, like, have a they're, like, little side

的群聊。完全理解。

group chat. Totally.

还有个自行车旅行小组。其实我是发起人之一，当时提议每年组织一次骑行。这个传统持续了很多年，但我后来不参加了。有了孩子后，我总用各种忙碌当借口。

And there there was a bike trip group. I actually was one of the people that initiated this group. And I said, let's do a bike trip once a year. And and that bike trip continued for many, many years, but I stopped going on it. I had kids, and I made all the excuses why I was too busy.

等孩子大些生活稳定后，我每年都告诉自己今年一定要去，也会跟骑行组说'今年我一定来'。但最后时刻总是放鸽子，说'抱歉伙计们我来不了'。

And once once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I I told myself, like, I'm really gonna go on the bike trip this year. And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year. I'm coming this year. And then I would, like, flake out at the last second and be like, I can't sorry, guys. I can't do it.

直到2021年2月，我下定决心今年必须去。那时我才意识到，自己疏远朋友的程度已经太过分了。

And then, like, in 02/2021, I was like, I'm definitely going this year. You know what? I have really, at this point, sidelined my friendships to a degree that is just way it's gone way too far.

你甚至能意识到这一点。

You could even recognize.

是啊。那是圣诞假期，我在波士顿的一家酒吧遇到了基本上每年都参加自行车旅行的那帮人。这些人里很多都是过去十年每年都去的。而我大概有八年没参加了。我一直主动提起自行车旅行的事，因为真的很想表明我今年一定会来。

Yeah. So it was Christmas break, and I met up with basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at at a bar in Boston. And a lot of these guys were guys who had gone had gone every year for the past decade. And I hadn't been on one for, like, eight years. And I basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip proactively because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm I'm coming this year.

明白。

Right.

我知道过去我总放鸽子，但今年我真的会来。结果罗伯根本不信，说'得了吧，你不会来的，你每次都这么说但从没兑现'。后来争执升级，他还翻出我某次特别恶劣的放鸽子记录。

I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year. And Rob basically was like, yeah, whatever. You're not coming. Like like, you always say you're gonna come and you never come. And one thing led to another, and he brought up a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out.

就这次旅行？

On this trip.

自行车旅行那次。

On the bike trip.

但罗伯提这个。

But Rob brought this up.

他直接说'你从没真正反省过那事有多混蛋'。然后我就开始防御性反驳'干嘛翻将近十年前的旧账？我都四十多岁了，那事确实挺混蛋的'

And he was just like, you know, like like, you never fully accounted for what a dick move that was, frankly. And then I started getting defensive. I'm like, why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago? Like, you know, I'm in my forties now. Like, you know, like It was kind of a dick it was definitely a dick move.

我们就讨论下这次自行车旅行的具体安排行吗？能不能说正事？结果话赶话越说越激烈。我平时真不是暴力的人

Let's just talk about the logistics of this biking trip. Can we, please? Can we just talk about this trip? And eventually, one thing led to another, and, like, the words got more and more heated. And I am not a violent person.

事实上我这辈子从没打过架。不知道是不是乔·罗根播客听多了，当他脸凑特别近时，我突然说'再不滚远点，我就把你满嘴牙都打掉'

In fact, I've actually never been in a fight in my entire life. And I don't know if it was listening to too much of the Joe Rogan stuff or whatever. But I just said to him at one point, I said he was getting really close to my face. And I said, if you don't get the fuck out of my face, I'm gonna knock every fucking one of your teeth out.

哇哦。

Woah.

我是认真的。我当时气疯了。我这辈子从没说过那样的话。而这句话是对我最亲爱的、最老的朋友之一说的。好在其他人及时阻止了，才没演变成肢体冲突。

And I meant it. I was so mad. And I've never said anything like that in my entire life. And this was something I was saying to my dear beloved one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends. And it got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows.

我们分道扬镳，我当时真的非常恼火。

We went our separate ways, and I was I was really pissed.

能问问你吗？好的。你离开酒吧时很生气。当然。你当时感到难堪吗？

Can ask you? Yeah. When you were leaving the bar, you were angry. Sure. Were you embarrassed?

你伤心吗？比如，那一刻你脑海里最直接的情绪是什么？

Were you sad? Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after?

我是说，当时最直接的情绪就是对他的愤怒。嗯。因为生气比面对其他情绪更容易。是的。

I mean, the the the the emotions immediately after were just anger at him. Mhmm. Because it was easier to feel angry Yeah. Than to feel emotions. Yeah.

对我来说，把责任全推给他更简单。就像是他非要跟我翻旧账

It was easier for me to just be like, it's all his fault. Like, he he picked a fight with me from can't an old

总是这样。是啊。

always go. Yeah.

他翻出十年前的旧事。这人怎么回事？确实。说实话，有那么一刻我在想：去他的吧。

He's bringing up some shit from a decade ago. You know, what's wrong with this guy? Yeah. I mean, truth truth be told, like, there was a point at which I was like, you know what? Fuck it.

我不需要再和这人做朋友了。哇哦。现在回想起来，我都不敢相信自己居然有过这种念头。但当时觉得，与其掏心掏肺地谈那次争执的感受，不如直接绝交来得轻松。

I I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore. Wow. Yeah. Like, which is looking back at him, like, I I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind. But it was like, it was actually easier for me to just just move on and not be friends than to, like, have a heart to heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.

我理解。

I understand that.

是啊。就在那时我开始反思，意识到自己已经八年没有旅行了。我越想越发现，自己有多么忽视友情，而多年来的忽视让我习惯了孤独，甚至对重新维系友谊产生了畏惧。可以说那场争吵是真正的转折点，我突然明白——我把所有号称对心理健康有益的事都优先做了，真的，我什么都试过了。

And yeah. And and that's when I started reflecting on, like, the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years. And I started just thinking more and more about how much I had deprioritized friendship, and then how much I had, as a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone and almost being intimidated by the idea of trying to rekindle my friendships. And so I would say that fight was the real precipitating moment where I was like, I have made every other thing that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority. Like, I've done all of the things.

我现在戒酒了，坚持锻炼，冥想，还做过心理咨询。明白吗？

I I don't drink alcohol anymore. I exercise. I meditate. I was in therapy. You know?

可偏偏没做最重要的事：和真实的人面对面相处，把友情放在首位。这成了我的觉醒时刻——我必须尝试改变现状。

And yet, I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person and prioritize friendship. And that I think that was, like, the tipping point for me where I was just like, I I have to try to try to change it.

稍后回来，我们将听到萨姆如何重新联系朋友。你经历了那个顿悟时刻，那场争吵听起来——非常具有启示性。

When we come back, Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends. That's next. So you have this moment. You have this fight. And it sounds extremely it sounds clarifying for you.

就像'我必须改变，或许早该改变，但这次我要勇敢尝试'。具体是怎么做的？如何重新把友情置于生活中心？还有——那次骑行旅行成行了吗？

Like, I need to make a change. And I've maybe needed to make one for a while, but I'm I'm gonna be brave and and try to make this change. What did that look like? Like, how did you try to start to reprioritize and recenter friendship in your life? And also, did you go on the bike trip?

那年骑行最终没去成。部分原因可能就是酒吧那次不愉快经历。至于我开始改变的方式...

The the the bike trip that year ended up not happening. Okay. And I think I think in part because of that that ugly experience at the bar. Yeah. But I what did it look like when I started addressing it?

说来有趣，我发现了个播客。

It's funny. You know, I I found a podcast.

不会又是播客吧，萨姆。

Not podcast. Come on, Sam.

但这次完全不同。这个叫《年度男人》的播客目标明确：专门为受孤独困扰的男性提供建议。

But this was a totally different kind of podcast. This podcast has a very explicit purpose. Podcast is called Man of the Year. It has a very explicit purpose, which is to offer advice to men who are struggling with loneliness. Okay.

有时候你恰好会遇到最对路的东西呢。

Well, sometimes you find exactly the right thing for you. Yeah.

而我需要用非常直白的兄弟式语言亲耳听到这些话。懂吗？所以，真正触动我的一点是‘主动做朋友’。‘主动做朋友’意味着别等对方来电，直接打过去约他们出来玩。

And I needed to hear it said out loud in very sort of bro plain language. Right? So so, like, one of the things that that really resonated with me was be the friend. Be the friend means, like, don't wait for the other guy to call you. Just call and ask them to hang out.

对吧？这档节目最妙的是，它让那些不爱矫情——比如深入探讨脆弱心理之类——的男性也能轻松收听。他们只需要听：好了兄弟们，听着。

Right? Yeah. And and the the the beautiful thing about listening to this show is that, like, it it's easy for guys to listen to who are not into the touchy feely stuff of, like, you know, get deep inside your vulnerability and this. Instead, they're just like, alright, guys. Guys.

非常简单。这里有些生活小窍门。明白？关于友情的实用建议。

Guys. It's very simple. Here's some life hacks. Alright? Here's some hacks for friendship.

TCS法则。懂？代表每周发短信。嗯。

Alright? TCS. Okay? It stands for text weekly. Mhmm.

每周短信。每月通话。嗯。每季度见面。哇哦。

Text weekly. Call monthly. Mhmm. And see quarterly. Woah.

明白？TCS。

Okay? TCS.

对。你只需要每年见朋友四次，每月通话一次，每周发条短信，设置提醒后照做就行。这是他们提供的偏技巧性的建议，我觉得挺实用。

Yeah. So all you have to do is see your friends four times a year, call them once a month, and text them once a week, and, like, that's all you have to do. You set it in your reminders, and it's like and then because it's in your reminders, you just have to do it. You know? So that was, like, one of the more kind of hack hack based tips that they gave that I did kinda find helpful.

本质上这治愈了我害怕显得 needy（ needy 保留不译）、软弱或爱抱怨的心理。而且事实证明——天啊谁能想到？——当我主动联系朋友时，他们完全愿意聊情感话题。男性也渴望情感联结。

Yeah. And, essentially, this is the antidote to my fear of seeming needy or weak or whiny or whatever. And and by the way, once I started calling my friends and, you know, it turns out, gee, who would have thought? They're totally willing to talk about emotions. Like, men do want to emotionally connect.

从没人说过‘兄弟，抱歉我不聊悲伤，只谈体育’。

Yeah. Like, no one has been like, bro, like, sorry. I don't I don't talk about sadness, bro. I only talk about sports. Do

还记得早期某次通话或聚会吗？当时会紧张吗？像是重返某个久违的领域？

you remember, like, an early phone call or even an early hangout? Were you nervous? Like, you were reentering this place you hadn't been.

是啊。有个特别的朋友，是我大学室友之一，一个在国外生活了很久的家伙，我们后来有点失去联系。他搬回城里后，住得离我也不算远。可即便如此，我还是——我真的很喜欢这家伙——但就像我说的，我已经很久很久没见过他了，尽管他现在就住在我附近。我正努力主动联系。然后他就说，好吧。

Yeah. There was a specific friend who was one of my college roommates, a guy who had lived abroad for a long time, and we fell kinda out of touch, who who moved back to the city and, you know, lived not that far from me. And yet, I still and I love this guy, but, like, I still hadn't seen him, you know, in a really, really long time, even though he now lived near me. I'm making the effort. And then he's like, alright.

嗯，你知道，格林威治村有场演唱会我想去。我就说，好吧。行吧。其实我内心并不真想去，因为有点紧张。

Well, you know, there's this concert that I wanna go to in Greenwich Village. And I'm like, okay. Alright. Like, I really don't actually wanna go because I'm, like, nervous.

因为

Because

基本上，我太久没社交了，朋友。我们会无话可说吗？会不会很尴尬？随便啦。而且现在是冬天，我就想，哦，外面地上还有半融化的雪。

I'm out of practice, basically, a friend. Are we gonna have nothing to talk about? Is it gonna feel forced? Whatever. And it's the winter, and I'm like, oh, it's gonna be there's like slushy on the ground.

我就纠结，是不是还得大老远坐火车进城，因为我其实并不想去。

I'm like, do I have to take the train all the way in because I didn't really wanna go.

确实。

Right.

但转念一想，因为我现在觉得，你知道吗？你既然决定要主动维系关系，那就得去。懂我意思吗？去吧，老兄。

But again, because, like, I'm I'm now like, you know what? You're making an effort to do this. You're gonna you're gonna go. You know? Do it, man.

明白吗？我得给自己打气。然后我去了，结果当然是一切都特别轻松自然。

You know? I had to, like, psych myself up. And I and I go, and, of course, it's totally easy and natural.

觉得尴尬吗？

Feel forced?

一点没有。嗯。特别轻松自然。我问了些以前从没问过的关于他工作的事。然后我开始跟他倾诉，在那段我感到孤独的时期里经历的挣扎。

Not at all. Mhmm. It's totally easy and natural. I'm asking him stuff about his work that I've never asked him before. And then I started to tell him a little bit about the struggles that I'd had in this period where I was where I was, like, feeling lonely.

而且，你知道吗，我的孤独感确实影响了我的创造力。因为陷入创作低谷，我反而更不想与人交往，心想：我可不想因为自己写不出东西而拖累别人。后来我开始向他们倾诉这些困扰。

And, also, like like, my loneliness was definitely affecting my creativity. And because I was in the creative dumps, like, it made me even less wanting to hang out with people because I was like, well, I don't wanna drag them down because I have writer's block or whatever. And I started to tell them about all that stuff.

等等，这听起来对你来说是件大事啊。能向妻子之外的人坦言这些，特别是向另一个男性倾诉，需要很大勇气吧。

Wait. Hold on. That feels like a big deal for you. To say that out loud to someone that's not your wife, like, that feels big to share that with another guy.

但有趣的是，实际说出来并不困难。他就跟我说：听着伙计，你是个创意人，这种瓶颈期本来就是创作之路的一部分。

And you know what's funny, though? Like, it didn't it it didn't actually feel hard to do it. And he was just like, listen, man. Like, this is you're a creative person. Like, this is part of the the path.

我们都会经历挣扎，这完全没关系的

And and we all struggle, and, like, it's totally it's okay that

你能这么想真的很好。

you It's really nice to hear.

听到这话特别暖心。那晚我们过得超棒——在Van Lewin买了巨型冰淇淋甜筒，

It was so nice to hear. And and we had such a great night. Like, we we we had, like, enormous, like, ice cream cones at Van Lewin with,

简直是有史以来最夸张的夜晚，那个分量

like, way too night ever. There's, like, way

冰淇淋球堆得老高。他点了华夫筒，我也跟着说：行，我也要华夫筒！最后我们举着史上最大的冰淇淋。

too many scoops of ice cream. And, like and and he orders the waffle cone. I'm like, alright. I'm getting the waffle cone too. So we got the biggest ice creams ever.

接着去听了演唱会，太精彩了！所有歌词都突然记起来了。我根本不想结束这个夜晚，但午夜列车快到了——要是错过这班就得困在城里。

We go to this concert. It was such a great concert. We knew all the like, all the words came back to us. I really didn't want the night to end, but, like, it was getting close to the midnight train. I literally had to get on that train if I was gonna be, like, stuck in the city.

记得当时给妻子打电话说：我今晚简直棒呆了！她问：发生什么了？为什么这么开心？我说：具体也说不上来。

And I remember calling calling my wife. I remember saying, like, I just had, like, the best night ever. She's like, well, what happened? What did you why was it so great? I was like, I don't know.

那种感觉简直太棒了。虽然我一直说着这些笼统的话，但真正珍贵的是能和这位挚友共处的时光。是的，哪怕只是得到一点点认同，或是分享些许情感，都让我感觉无比美好。我记得当时在火车上，望着窗外灯光如丝带般模糊掠过的景象。

Just like it was just so great. And I kept saying these general things, but it was the very act of just being with this old beloved friend. Yeah. And even just getting a little bit of validation, and even just sharing a little bit of emotional stuff that just felt so good. I remember having this feeling of being on the train, looking out of the window and seeing the blur of the lights, almost looking like ribbons of light.

我清晰记得那种感受——仿佛站在一扇关闭多年的门前，如今它终于敞开。透过门缝，我看见朋友们正在另一边等候，等着我去相聚。我只需以朋友的身份打个电话，就能加入他们。这个画面让我情绪翻涌：难道我真的放任自己这么多年，疏远了所有深爱的人们吗？

And I just remember this feeling of, I'm standing in front of a door that felt like it was closed for so long, and now the door is open. And I can see through the door, and on the other side of the door are my friends, and they're waiting. They're waiting for me to come hang out. And all I have to do is be the friend and call them and go hang out. And I remember feeling really emotional, having that image in my mind and thinking, did I let myself go for so many years without connecting to all these people who I love?

我当初怎么会说服自己那条孤独的道路是正确的？多年拼命锻炼却始终无法驱散孤独之后，终于顿悟：原来答案如此简单。我只需要多和朋友相处——这是任何其他事情都无法带给我的快乐。

And how did I convince myself that that was the right path? After years of really grinding and doing insane amounts of exercise that didn't make me feel any less lonely after so long of that, finally realizing, oh, this is it. This is the answer. All I have to do is hang out more. And nothing has ever worked in terms of making me feel happy.

和挚友们在一起，融入群体，这就是治愈心灵的奇迹良方。

Like being with the friends that I love and being in community. And, like, this is the miracle cure.

罗伯现在怎样？你们俩目前关系如何？你是怎么和他一起跨过那道门的？

Where's Rob? How are you two now? How did you walk through the door with him?

我们确实互通过几封真挚的邮件。

We did exchange some we exchanged some heartfelt emails.

嗯。

Mhmm.

后来我们终于通了电话。原本担心会是场尴尬艰难的对话，结果却出奇地美好。那种感觉让我恨不得聊上十个小时，最后因为聚餐迟到才不得不挂断。那通电话之后，我感觉我们之间的距离瞬间拉近了许多。

And then eventually, we we got on the phone and had what I was worried was gonna be a really awkward, really hard conversation and was a totally wonderful conversation. And I really like, it was the kind of thing where I I could have stayed on the phone for ten hours, and I just had to get off because I was late to dinner and everyone was waiting for me. After after that call, it is just it it I already feel so much closer to him.

你的朋友回来了。是啊。

You have your friend back. Yeah.

是的，对我来说确实如此。希望他也有同样的感受。

Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like that to me. I hope it feels like that to him too.

我们会把这段播客发给你。你提到你有个儿子，对吧？

We'll send this podcast to you. You've mentioned you have a son. Right?

是的。

Yeah.

你和儿子聊过关于友谊的话题吗？

Have you talked about friendship with your son?

我一直在思考如何培养一个不受我当年那种局限的男孩。这很难，因为我会和他一起看电影。比如我最近在给他介绍我童年时最爱的电影，其中一部是《比尔和泰德历险记》，这部电影——

I I think a lot about how to how do I raise a a boy who won't be limited in the way that I was. It's hard because I watch movies with him. Like, I've been introducing him to some of my favorite movies from when I was a kid. Like, one of my favorite movies was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which-

很棒的电影。

Great movie.

这是部关于友情的喜剧，兄弟喜剧。我给儿子看这部电影，部分原因是我觉得它展现了男性友谊该有的样子。他们有共同的行话、默契的手势。看着看着，有个情节特别突兀——当泰德被追杀的骑士‘杀死’时，比尔发现他的‘尸体’后崩溃大喊：‘天啊泰德！不！求你别这样！’

It's a friendship comedy. It's a friend it's a buddy comedy. And I showed that to my son because, like, part of what I love about that movie is that I think it models, like, what what male friendship can be like. Like, they have all kinds of shared lingo, they have shared hand motions, and, you know and I'm watching that movie with him, and there's this moment that was really discordant where it appears that Ted has been murdered by one of these knights that's been chasing them. And Bill stumbles upon his body, and he's like, oh my god, Ted, what no, please, this can't be.

他完全慌了神。结果下一秒泰德从侧门走出来说：‘我还活着。’比尔顿时如释重负欣喜若狂：‘天啊我以为你死了！你还活着！这简直是最棒的时刻！’

And he's freaking out. And then a second later, Ted emerges from a side door and is like, I'm still alive. And then Bill is relieved and overjoyed. And he's like, oh my god, I thought you were dead and you're alive. This is the best moment ever.

他们拥抱时，比尔把下巴抵在泰德脖子上。那是充满爱意的瞬间，两个朋友之间的爱。拥抱持续了一秒后，他们突然受惊般分开，对视着说了个我不愿重复的侮辱性词汇。

And they hug and they're like, he nestles his chin into Ted's neck. And they're like, it's a moment of love. It's a moment of love between two friends. And they hug for like a second, and then they get startled and pull away. And they look at each other, and they say a word that I'm not gonna say because it's an ugly word.

那个词以F开头，你知道的，是个贬义词。

But it's a word that starts with F. You know? Is a derogatory term.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

但我一直在观察，儿子，你知道，他对此感到困惑。他像是问，那里发生了什么？而我只是不想向他解释。但就是这样，我逐渐疏远了与朋友的关系。嗯。

And I'm watching, though, my son, and I you know, I I he was confused by that. He was like, what happened there? And I just I didn't wanna explain it to him. But it was like, that's how I got to the point where I alienated myself from my friendships. Mhmm.

类似这样的事情，我儿子可能接收到的信息是，作为男生，你不应该和男性朋友走得太近。因为那可能意味着什么，懂吗？就在那时，我小几岁的女儿总说要嫁给她的闺蜜，而我儿子也说想娶他最好的朋友。

Like, it's stuff like that, which, you know, my son like, I'm sure that my son got the kind of message that, like, you're not really supposed to get too close to your male friends. If you're a guy, like, you can't get that close because that could mean something. You know? And and it was right around that time that, you know, my daughter, who's who's a couple years younger, you know, was talking about how she wanted to marry her best friend all the time. And and and my son was like, yeah, I wanna marry, you know, my best friend too.

他过去常对这个朋友说'我爱你'，总是长时间拥抱并说'我爱你，等不及再见你'。我记得问他，你还想娶那个朋友吗？他却说，不了。

And and he and he used to say, like, I love you to to to this friend. And he used to always give give a long hug and say, like, I love you. I can't wait to see you again. And I remember asking him, do you, you know, do you still wanna marry that friend? And then he's like, nah.

因为不想让对方觉得他可疑。我都不知道他懂'可疑'这个词。这让我心碎，因为他应该能坦然说爱朋友。为什么女儿可以毫无负担地说想嫁闺蜜，儿子却不能表达？

Like, because I don't want him to think I'm sus. And I didn't even know that he knew the word sus. But and I just was, like, so heartbroken by that because I felt like he should be able to say he loves his friend. And and why if my daughter is allowed to say that she wants to marry her friend, and that's not there's no stigma around that at all. Like, why can't my son say

对啊。现在你能对朋友说'我爱你'了吗？

that to Yeah. Can you say I love you to your friend, and do you now?

我越来越常说了。以前完全说不出口，现在会说，但还是说得很快。比如'爱...嘿兄弟'这样。

I I have said it more and more. I used to not be able to say it at all, and now I do say it. And I still kinda say it fast. I'm like, love Yeah. Can you, man.

在电话结尾快速说句'爱你'。但说出来感觉很好，我正在练习放慢语速说。

Love you. Right at the end of the phone call. But I say it. And it does feel good to say it. And I'm working on saying it a little bit slower.

我希望能看着朋友眼睛说：'嘿兄弟，我爱你。谢谢你今晚出来，真的很爱你'。我渴望能做到这样。

And I would love to be able to, like, look my friend in the eye and say, hey, man. I love you. Thanks for, you know, thanks for, like, coming out tonight. I I really love you. Like, I'd love to be able to do that.

我还没达到绝地武士的境界。

I'm not not quite the Jedi yet.

要我说？你一定能做到的。

Can I say? Yeah. I think you're gonna get there.

希望如此。

I hope so.

我知道你会成功的。

I know you're gonna get there.

好吧。哎呀，你给了我一些信心。我会试试看的。

Alright. Well well, you're giving me some confidence. I'm gonna try it.

山姆·格兰菲尔森，非常感谢你。谢谢你的这次谈话。

Sam Gramfelsson, thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation.

谢谢。感谢邀请我。

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本集由艾米·珀尔制作，戴维斯·兰德和珍·波扬特编辑。《现代爱情》主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作。本集原创音乐由丹·鲍威尔、艾丽西亚·贝托普、黛安·王、马里昂·洛萨诺和罗温·内米斯托创作。

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl. It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poyant. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Dan Powell, Alicia Beitoop, Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, and Rowan Nemisto.

本集混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯完成，录音室支持来自麦迪·马西洛和尼克·皮特曼。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或一个微小的爱情故事，我们的节目说明中有相关指南。我是安娜·马丁。

This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.