#1005 - 沃伦·史密斯 - J.K.罗琳与言论自由的代价

在我们开始之前，我要宣布今年冬天将在美国和加拿大巡回演出，你可以加入我。演出时长一个半小时，最后有半小时的问答环节，还有见面会。开场前由Zach Talander进行音乐暖场，门票有限，你现在就可以购买。

Before we get started, I'm going on tour this winter around The US and Canada, and you can join me. It's an hour and a half long show. There's a half hour q and a at the end. There's meet and greet. There's music warmed up before I get started by Zach Talander, and tickets are limited, and you can get yours right now.

纽约、波士顿、芝加哥、奥斯汀、盐湖城和丹佛的门票所剩不多，请访问chriswilliamson.live。就是chriswilliamson.live。好了，我们开始吧。JK·罗琳又上新闻了。

New York, Boston, Chicago, Austin, Salt Lake City, and Denver still have limited tickets left at chriswilliamson.live. That's chriswilliamson.live. Alright. Let's get into it. JK Rowling is back in the news.

你对她最近的争议事件怎么看？

How do you feel about her recent debacle?

我能理解她的立场。我觉得她的做法很有效，没看出有什么问题。我能明白她为什么这么说，说实话，如果我是她，可能也会有同样的感受。

I can understand where she's coming from. I think it was effective. I don't see any problems with it. I can understand why she would say that. I would probably feel the same way if I were in her position, honestly.

是啊，她成了众矢之的。给没听说的人解释下：艾玛·沃特森上了杰·谢蒂的播客，说了一些话，至少从表面看，她似乎开始收回之前的某些谴责，可能是因为现在没那么时髦了。这就是大家最大的质疑——你到底是坚持原则，还是他妈的在跟风？

Yeah. She's become a lightning rod. So for the people that didn't hear, Emma Watson went on Jay Shetty's podcast, said some stuff, and it seems, at least from the outside, like she's starting to sort of roll back some of the condemnation that's been there because maybe it's not as sort of trendy as it used to be. And this is kind of the big complaint that everybody has. Do you actually stand on this principle, or are you just blowing with the fucking wind?

我觉得JK在那条获得4600万曝光量的推文里说得很清楚——这个数字足以引起人们注意了。她直接挑明：要不是艾玛非得说‘珍爱并珍惜我’，JK根本不会发声。但她现在可能察觉到文化风向的变化了。没错兄弟，在网上说话可得小心点。

And I I think JK, in this big tweet that's had, like, 46,000,000 impressions, which is that that's enough that's enough to get people to take notice. She she literally says it. Like, basically, if it wasn't for the fact that she had to say that she loves and treasures me, JK wouldn't have piped up. But she is now beginning to detect this change maybe in the sort of cultural weather vein. And, yeah, dude, be careful what you say on the Internet.

是的，我觉得艾玛·沃特森只是机会主义。不过有趣的是风向确实变了，当人们开始这样转变立场时就能看出来。我觉得可能全都是出于商业利益考虑。

Yeah. I think she's just Emma Watson's being opportunistic. It's interesting though that the tide is turning in that way. That's how you can tell that it really is, or when people start to perform differently like that. And it's all for business interests, think, probably.

但J.K.罗琳，我是说，如果没有J.K.罗琳，我现在也不会和你交谈。所以当我浏览那条推文时，其中一些内容确实引起了共鸣。在我被解雇后，J.K.罗琳给我发了消息，这对我来说意义重大。我认为真实性对她来说非常重要。但确实，她是个非凡的人，能花时间这样做。

But JK Rowling, mean, if it wasn't for JK Rowling, I wouldn't be talking to you right now either. So some of those things applied when I was reading through that tweet. JK Rowling messaged me in the wake of my firing, that really meant a lot to me. I think authenticity is something that's really important to her. But, yeah, she's a she's a remarkable person to do that, to take the time to do that.

所以我心里对她有一份特别的感情。永远都会。

So I have a soft spot in my in my heart for her. Always will.

为什么你认为她对这些事情如此具有争议性？她的立场有什么独特之处？

Why do you think she's such a lightning rod for this stuff? What's what's uniquely interesting about her position?

嗯，我认为首先是因为她的作品是仅次于《圣经》的全球最畅销书籍。对千禧一代来说，它就是我们的《星球大战》。甚至不止如此。她创造了这个世界，通过小说变得比女王还富有。但她的立场，我认为是相当主流和传统的。

Well, I think it's first and foremost that her work is the best selling book in the world next to the Bible. It's for millennials, it's it's our Star Wars. It's more than that. So she created this, she became richer than the queen off of fiction. So there's that, but her position, I think, is rather mainstream conventional.

这没有任何出格之处，我认为这就是它成为时代思潮的原因之一，因为人们听到时会觉得这非常合理，很有逻辑性。这也是我和学生对话的视频能产生如此影响的部分原因，因为它只是常识。她的立场似乎没有任何疯狂之处。

It's not risque in any way, and I think that's why, that's one of the reasons I think it's become such a zeitgeist, because people, when they listen to it, it's like, this is very reasonable. It seems very logical. That's part of the reason why that video of me talking to the student did what it did because it's just so common sense. Seems like there's nothing crazy about her position.

你能做个高层次的回顾吗？我知道已经有一段时间了，但为了那些不了解沃伦·史密斯法案的人，就像给本季剧情做个前情提要。

Could you give a 30,000 foot view recap? I know it was a little while ago now, but just for the people that don't know the Warren Smith law, just do do the previously on this season.

好的。当时我在教内容创作多媒体课程。我们应该做一个新闻播报。学生有点紧张，我说我们来做个热身。我会坐在这把椅子上。

Yeah. So I was teaching content creation multimedia. We were supposed to do a newscast. Student was feeling kind of nervous, I said, let's do a warm up. I'll sit here in the chair.

你想聊些什么？尽管问我。我们以前会做这样的事，搞些小播客。她就问，鉴于J·K·罗琳那些偏执的观点，你对她的看法有什么改变？我说，好吧，你说偏执的观点，你是基于什么这么说的？

What do you wanna talk about? Just ask me. We would do things like this, have little podcasts. She's like, well, how have your views on JK Rowling changed given her bigoted opinions? I was like, okay, well, when you say bigoted opinions, what are you basing that on?

嗯，她发过很多推文，如果你想看我可以给你看。当然，我们找出来看看吧。于是他找了出来，我们浏览了一遍。整个交流大概五分钟。我当时觉得没什么特别或疯狂的，但那就是……然后我把它上传到了我那不起眼的小YouTube频道，那里有我教学的片段。

Well, there's all these tweets she said, I can show them to you if you'd like to see. Sure, let's pull them up. So he pulls them up, we run through them. The whole exchange was like five minutes. I didn't think it was that interesting or that crazy, but that's And then I uploaded it to my little rinky dink YouTube channel where I had clips of me teaching.

我称之为我的教学作品集，因为我们需要提交教学档案的素材，我就放了一些教学片段。有人把它抓取并转到了推特上，我当时并不活跃于推特，然后事情就一发不可收拾了。

I called it my teaching portfolio because we had to submit artifacts for teaching our portfolio and I would have clips of me teaching. Someone grabbed it and pulled it over to Twitter where I was not active on Twitter and that's where it went crazy.

是啊。然后发生了什么？

Yeah. And then what happened?

几个月过去了，一切变化得非常快。两天后，皮尔斯·摩根邀请我进行了一次十五分钟的对话。我完全措手不及。第二天我回来上班，装作什么都没发生，但这招没管用。

Couple months went by, everything changed very quickly. Two days after that, Pierce Morgan had me on for a fifteen minute conversation. I was completely out of my depth. And I came in the next day and just acted like nothing happened, and that didn't work.

否认总是一个绝妙的策略，我觉得。

Denial is always a wonderful strategy, I think.

嗯，是啊。不，这招没管用。然后那天下午，因为皮尔斯·摩根的制作人们，他们只想要当下的热点。所以他们立刻抓住了这个机会，问我，你愿意做这个吗？

Well, yeah. No. It didn't work. And then that out so then that afternoon, because Paris Morgan, his producers, they just want the flavor of the day. Like, so they jumped right on it, and they're like, will you do this?

我当时和一位老师一起工作。我们曾在这个空间里录制。之后，我们布置好这个空间，开始每周制作一次视频。我告诉他，他们想让我上Piers Morgan的节目。我该怎么办？

I And was working with one teacher. We used to record in this space. After that, we set the space up and started once a week making videos. I told him, they want me to come on Piers Morgan. What should I do?

学校会生气吗？他说，是的，他们会生气。就像是，直接去做吧。因为如果我请示，他们只会给我一堆长篇大论，自以为……

Is the school going to get mad? He's like, Yeah, they'll get mad. It's like, Just do it. Because if I ask, they're just gonna give me some long thing that think they're

那会导致无论是什么情况，都会带来宽恕和惩罚。是的。

That is gonna make why it for whatever it is, forgiveness and punishment. Yeah.

我知道自己正处在千载难逢的机会中，处于人生的十字路口。就像是，你要充分利用这个机会吗？当时我不知道它会走向何方。那只是一个小小的视频，但有潜力尝试做出一些事情，所以我做了。我上了Pierce Morgan的节目。

I knew I was in the midst of a once in a lifetime opportunity, and I was at a fork in the road. It's like, Do you make the most of this? I didn't know where it would go at that time. All it was was one little video, but there was the potential to try and make something, so I did it. It went on Pierce Morgan.

然后第二天，他们有点生气了，但我不得不和所有律师见面，他们叫我和校长一起开会，她平时从不在那儿，但那次她来了。他们说，嗯，你没有违反任何规定。你有授权书，也没有泄露任何信息。你处理得很谨慎。你没有真正采取偏袒的立场，他们居然说了恭喜。

Then the next day, they kinda got pissed, but then I had to meet with all the lawyers, and they called me in with the head of the school, who was never there, but she was there for that. They said, Well, you didn't break any rules. You have the releases, and you didn't reveal any information. You handled it delicately. You didn't really take a biased position, and they literally said congratulations.

然后，但是有几位老师在那里对我很不满，仅仅是因为我的立场，我对JK罗琳的立场，是的，我认为说她偏执是不公平的，但我在视频中并没有真的那么说，但那是学生们得出的结论。所以他们把这看作是我的立场。有人过来问我，你怎么还没被开除？我说，我没有。他们说我没有做错任何事。

Then, but several, there were teachers there that were upset with solely on my position, my position around JK Rowling, which yeah, I think it's unfair to call her bigoted, but I didn't really say that in the video, But that's where the student arrived at. So they took it as a position. And there were people coming up to me like, How are you not fired? And I was like, I didn't. They said I didn't do anything wrong with it.

但还是有人感到不满。不过我们继续在这个空间里，每周坚持制作视频，并且开始有一点起色。我想他们只是在等待风波过去，以便能够出手。我从商业角度理解这一点。如果有一个老师在制作YouTube视频，并且还有人看，哪怕当时规模很小，这也可能是一种责任。

But there were people that were upset. And it just kind of But we kept making, in this space, kept making videos once a week, and it was getting a little bit of traction. Think they just were waiting until the storm blew over to be able to pounce it. And I get it from a business perspective. It can be a liability if you have a teacher making YouTube videos, and people are actually watching them to some extent, even though it's very small back then.

但关键在于他们的处理方式。如果他们直接说‘是的，这不太符合我们的风格，有点风险，所以我们决定分道扬镳’，我还能理解。但事实完全不是这样。他们说的是‘签这份保密协议’。

But it was the way they did it. I would understand if they'd be like, Yeah, it's not quite our cup of tea. It's just a bit of a liability, so we're going to part ways. But that wasn't what happened at all. Was like, We'll sign this NDA.

我们会付钱让你签这份保密协议。感觉他们就是想彻底毁掉我，老兄。太疯狂了。那绝对是我人生中最艰难的时期之一。是的。

We'll pay you to sign this NDA. It felt like they were just trying to destroy me, dude. It was crazy. It was one of the most challenging periods of my life, for sure. Yeah.

所以这就是那段往事了。

So that's that's the lore.

对于那段艰难时期，你现在有什么反思？我觉得很多人——也许没那么公开，也许没那么多眼睛盯着——但都会经历接连遭受重创的阶段。而且这些打击往往是接二连三地来的。现在回首往事，你如何将这段经历视为人生弧线的一部分？

What have you come to reflect on with regards to that difficult time? I think a lot of people, maybe not quite so publicly, maybe not with quite so many eyeballs, but people go through periods where they get kicked in the nuts a lot. And it it seems to happen sequentially in in bunches. With the benefit of hindsight now, how do you think about that experience as part of the arc of your life?

嗯，那是塑造我的时期。这就像是叙事法则之一。比如你要写剧本，必须设置让主角克服的障碍什么的。我们都在努力成为自己故事里的英雄，不管愿不愿意承认。越是逆境...就在那个视频爆红的前一周，我正好在看大卫·贝克汉姆的纪录片。我当时觉得这纪录片真不错。

Well, it was the period that shaped me. It's one of the laws of narrative. Like, if you're trying to write a screenplay, you have to have obstacles for the hero to overcome or whatnot, and we're all trying to become the heroes in our own story, whether we want to admit it or not. The more adversity Literally, week before that video went viral, was watching the David Beckham documentary. And I was like, this is a really good documentary.

我特别有共鸣是因为看到他不断被击倒、挣扎求存的过程，这让故事充满张力。然后纪录片里他儿子成了足球运动员。我就想：我完全不在乎这小子，因为他根本没经历逆境，机会都是直接送到他手上的。

And I this really resonates because he was getting knocked down. He was struggling, and that made it compelling. And then his son becomes a soccer player in the documentary. I like, I don't care about this guy at all because he had no adversity. He was just handed this opportunity.

所以不知为何，那时我满脑子都是这些想法。我不会改变任何事。我很幸运。当时如履薄冰，但我挺过来了。确实很吓人。

I was like, so for some reason, that was in my mind just at that time. I wouldn't change anything. I got lucky. I I was walking a knife's edge, but I made it through. It was scary.

确实非常艰难。但我不会改变任何事，因为一旦做出一个调整，谁知道会引发怎样的连锁反应。所以我不会改变任何事，但这经历确实非凡。我会形容它就像——因为我一直是这个领域的忠实粉丝，长期观看你的节目，还有我遇到的那些人。

It was really difficult. But it's I I wouldn't change because if you make one adjustment, who knows how that would so I wouldn't change anything, but it was it's been remarkable. It was I would describe it as like because I've been a genuine fan of this space. I've been watching your show a long time. The people I've gotten to meet.

想象一下看着你最爱的橄榄球队，突然一夜之间获得机会上场，汤姆·布雷迪把球传给你，你接住了。现在我就想，我要沿着球场拼命奔跑，直到有人拦住我，看看我能跑多远。这就是我的心态。嗯。这就是我正在做的，懂吗？

Imagine watching your favorite football team, and suddenly overnight, you're given this opportunity to be on the field, and Tom Brady's throwing you the football, and you catch it. Now you just, I'm gonna run as far down this field until someone tackles me and see how far I can get. That was my mentality. Mhmm. And that's what I'm doing, you know?

是的。我对此深有共鸣。将偶像变成对手或朋友是一种非常奇怪的感觉，非常不可思议，需要一点时间才能让你慢慢回到现实。你知道，每个人都可以装得很酷，我觉得这个圈子里很多人都是这样。

Yeah. It's a, I resonate with that. The turning idols into rivals or friends is, like, a really weird sensation. It's a very bizarre thing, and it takes a little bit of time for you to sort of come back down to earth. And, you know, everybody can play it off as cool, and I think a lot of people in this space do.

过了一段时间，你会习惯。你会想，哦，那是安德鲁·休伯曼，或者，哦，那是他妈乔·罗根之类的。就像，哦，前几周还有马修·麦康纳。在某种程度上你确实会习惯，但我有一部分不想这样。我有一部分不想习惯这种事。

And after a while, you habituate. You're like, oh, there's Andrew Huberman or, oh, there's fucking Joe Rogan or whatever. Like, oh, there's Matthew McConaughey and Matthew McConaughey on the other week. And you do habituate to it in some ways, but there's a bit of me that doesn't want to. There's a bit of me that doesn't want to habituate to this.

我有一部分想说，嘿。我历史上最喜欢的电影是《星际穿越》，而主演不仅知道我的名字，还有我的电话号码。是的。这他妈太酷了。就像，我应该为此兴奋不已。

There's a bit of me that wants to say, yo. My favorite movie in history is Interstellar, and the main guy knows me personally by name and has my phone number. Yeah. That's fucking sick. Like, I should be fired up about that.

就像，我每次遇到这种情况，都应该非常激动和热情。我不应该还装得比酷更酷。现在一切都他妈变得平淡了，你知道，像MM什么的。不。就像，这他妈太酷了。

Like, I should I should every time that happens, I should be really excited and enthusiastic. I shouldn't be, like, cooler than cool yet. It's it's just all it's all fucking matte over there, you know, double m or whatever. Like, no. Like, that's fucking sick.

就像，让它感染你。

Like, let it infuse you.

这就是J.K.罗琳给我发那条消息时我的感受，她问我，我能为此做些什么吗？这简直是我收到过最珍贵的消息了。虽然只是一条消息，但感觉超现实。真的太超现实了。是的。

That's how I felt when JK Rowling sent me that message, and was like, can I do anything to that? Like, that's the most treasured message I've gotten. It's just a message, but it's surreal. That was so surreal. Yeah.

我当时不知道该怎么回复，现在她因为我们现在谈论的一切又上了新闻，我还在想这件事。嗯哼。嗯哼。我当时就想，天啊，希望我没说像艾玛·沃特森那样的话。

And I didn't know how to respond to it, and I still think about it now that she's back in the news with everything we're talking about. Mhmm. Mhmm. I was like, man, I hope I didn't say anything like Emma Watson did.

是的。希望如此。

Yeah. Hopefully.

我觉得应该没问题。

I think it was fine.

是的。你有一句引述说，当对话不被允许发生时，只会让问题变得更糟。

Yeah. You've got a quote that says when conversations are not allowed to occur, it only makes the problem worse.

是的。我们确实看到了这一点。我的意思是，这和查理·柯克说的有点类似，最近有点火。他说，当我们停止交谈时，坏事就会发生。那时暴力就会出现。

Yeah. We've seen that for sure. I mean, that's similar to something that's been kinda going viral that Charlie Kirk said. He's like, conversations when we stop talking, that's when bad things happen. That's when violence occurs.

所以，是的，我认为对话绝对是至关重要的。

So, yeah, I think conversations are absolutely essential.

真正有影响力的沟通方式只有两种。一种是言语，另一种是暴力。我实在想不出还有什么其他的。音乐或许算吧，但通过音乐其实并不能传达太多信息。

There's only really two forms of communication that has impact. There's words, and then there's violence. Like, that I I I can't think of what else there is. Like, I guess, music, but you're not really communicating much through music.

是的。还有行动中的言语。你知道，我把它描述为：言语就像漂浮在水面的小船，而我们真正传达的大部分想法，我认为是通过非语言沟通和行动实现的——回到演员的叙事理念，像马修·麦康纳这样的人真正深入挖掘的是场景中的潜台词。他们明白言语只是工具，任何人只要有足够时间都能背下剧本，但马修·麦康纳做得特别出色的是言语之外的一切。对吧？

Yeah. There's words in action. You know, I describe it as, like, words are the boats floating on the surface, and we really communicate most of what we really think, I think, through nonverbal communication and action and back to the narrative idea with actors, that's what people like Matthew McConaughey really dig into, is the subtext in the scene. They understand that the words are just the tools, and anybody given enough time can memorize that script, but what Matthew McConaughey does so well is everything else beyond the words. Right?

这有点跑题了，但这就是我的想法。冲突确实是一种行动形式。

It's it's kinda going off on a tangent there, but that's how I I think about it. Conflict is a form of action, for sure.

我一直在思考这个问题。我最近参加了一个静修活动，这是我做过的最强度的事情。从早上9点到晚上9点，每天12小时，基本上是在索诺玛县的一个农场里与情绪打交道。说实话，我到现在还没有完全理解它的意义。我还没有完全回到现实世界。

I I was thinking about this. I did this retreat recently, and it's the most intense thing that I've ever done. And I spent twelve hours a day from 9AM until 9PM, basically working with emotions on a farm in Sonoma County. And I still, to be honest, don't fully know what to make of it. I haven't come back down to planet Earth fully yet.

但我意识到的一点是，在练习、实践和我们作为团体、成对或独自经历的过程中，所传达的信息量如此之大，却与言语无关。实际上，言语所占的比例非常小。然而，如果你看看大多数人如何沟通，他们是通过完全依赖言语的媒介进行的。短信中没有肢体语言。甚至在我们现在这样的交流中，肢体语言也不多。

But one of the things that I did realize is the amount of information that was conveyed during the exercises and the practices and the processes that we were going through as a as a group and in pairs and on our own, so much of it was not about words. So little of it was actually about words. However, if you look at how most people communicate, it is through mediums that exclusively transact in words. There's no body language over message. There's not really even that much body language over what we're doing right now.

你观看的这个视角正在压缩这种沟通。你可以和某人坐在一起，不需要涉及什么神秘能量、灵界或五维空间，你就能判断出对面坐着的人是平静祥和、焦躁不安还是悲伤难过，连他妈的一句话都不用说。对吧？但所有这类沟通都已经丢失了，我觉得这似乎导致每个人、鼓励每个人过度强化言语交谈的部分，而完全忽视了另一方面。

There's there's the aperture through which you're seeing this is squeezing this communication down. And, like, you can sit with somebody and without getting into woo energy, astral realm, fucking five dimensional territory, you can sit with someone, and you can tell if that person that sat opposite you is calm and peaceful or agitated or sad without saying a fucking word. Right? Okay. But all of that type of communication has been lost, and I wonder whether it has it it feels to me like it's led everybody, it's encouraged everybody to really lean into hypertrophy ing the words talking portion of things and completely pushing to one side that, well, okay.

那么，我现在感觉如何？这里的情感背景是什么？对方是如何表现的？有哪些话没有说出口？他们说话时的节奏是怎样的？

Well, how do I feel right now? Like, what is the emotional context that's going on here? How is this other person showing up? What are the things that aren't being said? What's the pacing between the the words that they're saying?

他们是用什么语气说这些话的？你知道，尤其是在短信中，所有这些信息都丢失了。这让我想起我花了一整周时间处理情绪，基本上就像是参加了海豹突击队新兵训练营，去他妈的感受你的感受，这真的让我深刻意识到，现在我们几乎所有的沟通都是多么低分辨率。那么，继续深入思考，这又意味着什么呢？

What's the tone that they're saying this in? You know, especially over text message, all of this stuff is lost. And it it reminded me working with emotions for an entire week and basically doing, like, Navy SEAL boot camp for fucking feeling your feelings really drilled it home to me how low resolution almost all of our communication is now. And, okay, what are the implications of that if you keep on spinning it up?

是的，是的。肯定无法替代面对面交流。是的。关于这个，我确实不知道该说什么。

Yeah. Yeah. It's nothing replace in person, for sure. Yeah. I don't really know what to say about that.

说得很好。

That's well put.

政治暴力态度方面，有一些新数据刚刚出炉。支持使用暴力阻止校园演讲的学生比例比2021年上升了10个百分点，现在是34%对24%。47%的Z世代同意暴力可以为推进政治目标而正当化，而婴儿潮一代只有22%，47对22。2025年，38%的美国大学生认为暴力可以接受，以阻止校园仇恨言论，71%的学生至少接受大声喝倒彩让演讲者无法发言，54%的学生会 physically 阻止其他学生参加校园演讲。

Political violence attitudes, some new data that's just come out. The percentage of students who support using violence to stop a campus speech is up 10 points from 2021, so that's 34% against 24%. 47% of Gen Z agree that violence can be justified to advance a political goal. That's against twenty two percent of boomers, 47, 22. In 2025, 38% of US college students said violence is acceptable to prevent hate speech on campus, and 71% of students are at least accepting of shouting down speakers, and 54% are physically blocking other students from attending a campus speech.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我最近做了一个视频，关于一位独立记者，那个在埃默森校园带着相机的人，那是我的大学，我现在还在那里在线教一门课，但我在那里读的研究生，也一直在那里教书。他问学生们关于那个34%的调查，他们的回应是，我惊讶居然不是更高。在哈佛也是如此，他去了埃默森然后又去了哈佛。在哈佛，他问了那个具体问题。他说，嗯，为什么？

I it's recently did a video on a an independent journalist, the guy with a camera on Emerson campus, which is my college, where I still teach, like, one class online, but I went there for grad school and have taught there. And he asked the students about that 34 survey and their response was, I'm surprised it's not higher. At Harvard as well, he went to Emerson and then Harvard. At Harvard, he asked that specific question. He goes, Well, why?

你什么意思？嗯，哈佛非常自由。你的想法是怎样的？想想你在说什么。想想那里的逻辑。

What do you mean? Well, Harvard's very liberal. How's your thinking? Think about what you're saying. Think about the logic there.

虽然自由派认为暴力是对言论的一种合法回应形式，但这简直太疯狂了。查理·柯克事件之后，这段时间真是疯狂，伙计。

While liberals believe that violence is a legitimate form of response to speech, it's just crazy. It's been a crazy time, man, after Charlie Kirk.

你对这件事的文化层面有什么事后分析？

What's your what's your postmortem culturally on this?

我认为情况正在恶化，因为在那之后有一段时期人们如履薄冰。那些不同意他们观点的人变得非常谨慎，甚至对那些持不同意见的人有些同情。但也有很多疯狂的人不受此影响。这有点像一段哀悼期，然后过去了，新闻周期又重新活跃起来。

It's I think it's getting worse because there's that period right after it where people are walking on eggshells. The people that disagree with them, people are being very careful and kind of sympathetic with those that disagree with them. Many. There's a lot of crazy people that this doesn't apply to. It's kind of this period of mourning, and then that passes, and the mood the news cycle picks back up.

事件继续发展，人们又逐渐回到了他们以前的方式。我们看到波特兰正在发生的事情。总的来说，我觉得形势不太乐观。不过，看到那些回应让我深受启发，对我来说是一个很大的警醒，我一直在通过这些视频尽可能多地揭露这一点。但在爱默生学院看到那一幕让我深受打击，虽然我并不感到意外。

Events continue, and it and people kind of revert back to their their older ways. We're seeing what's happening in Portland. I I just think it's it's not looking good is my overall take. I think it was very illuminating, though, seeing those responses, which has been some of a big wake up call for me, and I've been trying to shine a light on that as much as I can through these videos. But that hit me hard seeing that at Emerson because but it didn't surprise me.

但我希望我认识的人，比如不同意我的家人，能更多地理解我的立场。因为你看，这就像是我多年来就坐在这些人旁边。也许这能稍微解释为什么我现在是这样，或者诸如此类，因为我知道他们很难理解我周围的这些事。所以我认为这对一些人来说是一个警醒，但总的来说，我的反应是我对此深感担忧，不知道事态会如何发展。

But I'm hoping that people I know, like my family that disagrees with me, we'll see, we'll kind of understand more about where I'm coming from. Because it's like, look. This is, like, literally where I was I was sitting next to these kind of people for years. This kind of maybe this can explain a little bit of why I am the way I am now or or whatnot because I know they're struggling with understanding that around me. So that's been, I think, a lot it's been a wake up call for some people, but I'm generally my response would be I'm I'm deeply concerned about it, where this could go.

本节目由Gymshark赞助。在健身房时，你希望看起来和感觉都很好，而Gymshark生产世界上最好的男士和女士健身服。说实话，你越喜欢你的健身装备，你就越有可能去训练。他们的男士混合训练短裤是地球上最好的男士短裤。

This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the gym, and Gymshark makes the best men's and girls' gym wear on the planet. Let's face it. The more that you like your gym kit, the more likely you are to train. Their hybrid training shorts for men are the best men's shorts on the planet.

他们的Crest连帽衫和浅灰色Maul是我每次坐飞机时穿的衣服。Geo无缝T恤是我在健身房的主力装备。基本上，他们做的每件东西都合身得令人难以置信，质量高，价格便宜。提供30天免费退货、全球配送以及全站10%的折扣。

Their crest hoodie and light gray maul is what I fly in every single time I'm a plane. The Geo seamless T shirt is a staple in the gym for me. Basically, everything they make, it's unbelievably well fitted, high quality. It's cheap. You get thirty days of free returns, global shipping, and a 10% discount site wide.

请点击下方描述中的链接或访问jim.sh/modernwisdom。结账时使用优惠码modernwisdom10。网址是jim.sh/modernwisdom，结账时输入modernwisdom10。这是什么意思？你内心深处在担忧什么，这种担忧可能会发展到什么程度？

Go to the link in the description below or head to jim.sh/modernwisdom. Use the code modern wisdom 10 at checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdom and modernwisdom10 at checkout. What does that mean? What what are you deeply concerned about, and where could it go?

嗯，就在昨天，我们在波特兰遇到了尼克·雪莉。我上一个视频就是报道他的事，有个安提法（Antifa）成员走过来，因为尼克把镜头怼到他脸上，就威胁要开枪打他。然后从视频里能看到屋顶上有两个狙击手——看起来像是——用激光瞄准器在他身上打点。尼克指着说：老兄，现在有狙击手在瞄准你，你胸口有个红点。这才让局势降级，对方退走了。我觉得迟早会不只是瞄准而已，总会有一方有人扣下扳机。

Well, so, yeah, just yesterday, we had Nick Shirley in Portland. The last video I did was covering him, and a guy comes up to him, Antifa, and he threatens to shoot him and because he was putting a camera in his face. And then two snipers on top of the roof lay is what it looks like from the video, paint with their lasers on him, and Nick points like, dude, there's a sniper pointing at you right now, and there's a dot on his chest. And it gets him to deescalate and back off. I think it's only a matter of time until it's not just painting a target and someone pulls the trigger on either side.

这就是我担心的地方——我担心会发生某些让局势升级的事情。

And that's where I'm I'm worried that something is going to happen that's going to escalate things.

比查理·柯克被枪击更严重吗？

More so than Charlie Kirk being shot?

呃，你说的'更严重'是指什么？

Well, what do you mean by more so?

因为你的意思是——为什么那不算升级？我们已经发生了这个事件。假设这个事件没有发生，而你注意到这些暗流涌动的迹象。查理·柯克被枪击本应该是那种典型的升级事件。所以我们已经看到了这一例。

Because do mean by What is it that doesn't make that the escalation? We've had this event which has occurred. You're presumably one of the things let's say that that event hadn't occurred, and you were noticing these rumblings below the surface. Charlie Cook being shot would be the precise sort of thing that would be the sort of thing that would be an escalation. So we've seen this one.

所以你是否觉得，就像地上洒满了煤油，有人划了根火柴扔过去，但碰巧落偏了一点？没有完全引燃其他东西，但如果再发生类似煽动性的事件，可能就不会这么幸运了？

So does it do you feel a little bit like there was a bunch of kerosene on the ground and someone lit a match and flicked it, but it happened to land just, like, a little bit off? It didn't quite catch fire to everything else, but that might not be the case if another inflammatory sort of event occurs?

嗯，是的，煤油确实在那里。有趣的是，查理·柯克的粉丝们并没有大规模反应。我们就说是右翼人士之类的吧，没有发生骚乱。是的，这一点已经被指出来了，但我担心的是同样的事件发生在政治光谱的另一边。我的意思是，我们见过‘黑人的命也是命’运动，我们见过骚乱。

Well, yeah, the kerosene was definitely there. It is interesting to note that there was not a massive response from Charlie Kirk fans. We'll just say people on the right or whatnot, there was not rioting. Yeah, that's been pointed out, But I think my concern would be that same event with the opposite side of the political spectrum. I mean, we've seen BLM, we've seen the riots.

似乎某些意识形态更倾向于以不同方式表达不满。所以在某种程度上，这很糟糕。他们向世界投掷了非常糟糕的东西，而一线希望或许来自于我们能够处理它，或者说光谱的这一边能够控制住。没有变得疯狂。我，我没有——我的意思是，你不觉得这在某种程度上可能会变得糟糕吗？

There seems to be a tendency for certain ideologies tend to be more inclined to demonstrate frustration in different ways. So in a way, it's like, that's bad. They threw something really bad at the world, and a small sliver of hope perhaps comes out of the fact that we were able to handle it, or this side was able of the spectrum. It didn't go bonkers. I I don't have a I mean, aren't don't don't you feel in a way like this could go south?

我是不是多虑了，觉得这事有潜在的恶化可能？因为你说得对，那是一次升级。我很高兴它没有引发暴力。没有骚乱。是的，波特兰有其他主题的抗议活动。但我的意思是，你对此有什么看法？

Am I off for feeling like there's potential here for this to because you're right, that was an escalation. I'm glad it didn't spark off into violence. There's no rioting. Yes, there's protests going off in Portland around other topics. But I mean, what are your thoughts on it?

我认为你的担心是对的。这确实说明我们已经变得有些麻木了。我们之前谈到过习惯化，比如，哦，J.K.罗琳在我的私信里。然后又是，哦，十二个月内又发生了一起针对公众人物的重大暗杀企图。而且，我觉得很奇怪，尤其是我还在情绪周工作后的感性情绪中。

I think you're right to be concerned. It it does say a lot that we've kind of become desensitized. We were talking about the habituation earlier on, like, oh, there's JK Rowling in my DMs. It's like, oh, there's a huge like, another assassination attempt on a a real public figure in the space of twelve months. And, I don't it's strange, especially given that I'm still in my my feely feels after after my week working on emotions.

奇怪的是我们还能继续前进，你能起床去工作，就好像那只是发生的一件事。我猜，人类他妈的需要养家糊口、上厕所、遛狗等等，但这并没有让我充满希望，尽管这件事很可怕，是暴行，却只是又一个新闻故事，你知道，世界继续转动。是的，我认为通过了查理·柯克纪念日，这是一个很好的致敬。但是，是的，我有一个问题，在你刚才说话时我想到的，你如何调和你所提出的观点，即暗示左翼，至少当前部分左翼，更倾向于采取行动，‘黑人的命也是命’、骚乱等等。你如何调和这一点与我看到的一些报告，可能是国内威胁，可能是FBI统计数据，说大部分国内恐怖主义担忧来自中右翼团体而不是中左翼团体。

It's strange that we are able to continue moving forward, that you can get up and go to work, that, like, that's just a thing that happens. And I guess, you know, humans need to fucking put bread on the table and go to the bathroom and and walk the dog and stuff, but it it doesn't it exactly fill me with hope, that this is, although horrific and, an atrocity, just another news story that, you know, the world continues spinning. And, yeah, we've got Charlie Kirk Remembrance Day, I think, which was passed, which which is a very nice tribute. But, yeah, I one one question that I do have that I realized while you were talking there, how do you square the circle of what you brought up, which is, hinting at a tendency for the left, at least parts of the left in its current iteration, to be, more kinetic, BLM, riots, etcetera etcetera. How do you square that circle with some of the reports that I've seen coming out from maybe domestic threats, maybe FBI statistics saying that most of the domestic terror concern comes from right of center groups as opposed to left of center groups.

你见过这个吗？知道我在说什么吗？

Have you seen this? Do know what I'm talking about?

没有。是人们说他们删除了的那个研究吗？没有。我不熟悉那项研究。

No. Is this the study that people were saying, oh, they removed it or something? No. I'm not familiar with that study.

基本上，很多研究似乎表明，右翼团体是最大的威胁。我只是在想，从我过去五年间接触到的新闻事件的大视角来看，我也会得出同样的结论。你知道，我们看到了那个地方——夏洛茨维尔。还记得夏洛茨维尔事件吗？

Basically, it seems like a lot of the some of the studies suggest that it is groups right of center that are the biggest threat. I just wonder, taking my big broad perspective of the news stories that have really come across me over the last half decade, I would say the same thing. You know, we saw what was that place where everybody Charlottesville. Do remember Charlottesville?

是的。

Yeah.

是的，是的，是的。比如，我们上次看到类似夏洛茨维尔那样的事件是什么时候？我……我想不起来了。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, when was the last time that we saw something like a Charlottesville? I I can't remember.

是的，我……我也想不起来了。嗯，1月6日事件，他们可能会……

Yeah. I don't I I can't remember either. Well, January 6, where they would probably

对，就是这个。没错。那确实是个大事件。这就说明了一切。

There we go. Yes. That is true. That was quite a big one. It says it all that.

我居然把那事给忘了。所以，是的，有道理。也许……也许你是对的。也许两边的情况是相当的。

I've managed to forget that. So, yeah, fair enough. Maybe maybe you're right. Maybe it's maybe it's equal on both sides.

我不是说两边相当，但我是试图不从……的角度来看待这个问题，因为这变成了一种简化游戏。它是……

I don't I'm not saying it's equal, but it's I've been trying to look at this not through the lens of because it becomes a reductive game. It's

试图在这之间含糊其辞，是的。

it's To try and equivocate between Yeah.

是的。你们那边搞了1月6日事件和这个，你们在这个日期做了这个，我们这边也做了。就像，我们不是那样的，不是的。我只是觉得这

Yeah. Your side did January 6 and this, and you did this on this date and our side did it. It's like, we're not that's not Yeah. I just think it's

多少个1月6日事件相当于一个BLM？多少个，是的。

How many January 6 is one BLM? How many yeah.

是的。因为我最初的反应，我认为对很多人来说，这感觉像是，这不是左对右的问题，而是善与恶的对决。但后来又想，等等，但这恰恰是危险的游戏，因为这可能驱使人们去杀害像查理·柯克这样的人，因为他们认为自己面对的是真正的邪恶。我有朋友已经疏远了我，因为他们认为，当你真正面对法西斯主义和在他们眼中的真正邪恶时，友谊又算什么呢？

Yeah. Because my here my initial response, and this is the I think for many people, it was like, this is not right versus left. This is good versus evil. But then it's like, wait a minute, but that's exactly what can that's a dangerous game to play because that's what can drive people to kill someone like Charlie Kirk because they think they're facing genuine evil. I have friends that have kind of tossed me away because it states, What's a friendship when you're genuinely up against fascism and genuine evil in their minds?

在他们看来，这恰恰是我所代表的，所以你必须非常小心如何诊断这一点。因此，我一直将其归结为正确行为与错误行为，真的。因为也有很多民主党人或自由派并不庆祝查理·柯克的死亡，他们会说你这么说很荒谬。所以这不只是民主党、共和党的问题。而是左右两边都会有行为不当的人。

Which is, in their minds, what I stand for, so you've got to be very careful how you diagnose that. So I've been reducing that down to it's correct behavior versus incorrect behavior, really. Because there's also plenty of Democrats or Liberals that aren't celebrating Charlie Kirk's death and that would say, you're ridiculous for saying these things. So it's not just Democrat, Republican. But so the the there's gonna be people with incorrect behavior on the right side and the left side.

但我认为，后现代主义、受害者心态所滋养的这种意识形态或思维方式，与某种人格产生共鸣，在我看来更倾向于大规模抗议，更倾向于我们在骚乱、“爱之夏”、BLM骚乱中看到的行为。这一方的思想中有些东西与特定类型的行动产生共鸣，而另一方，我们姑且称之为传统保守家庭、更宗教化的价值观、个人责任、组建家庭、守护过去的伟大传统，则没有那么倾向于我刚才说的‘烧毁一切’，而不是‘我们都被西方压迫，烧毁一切’，这简直就烙在了

But I think there's something about the ideology or this way of thinking that has flourished from postmodernism, victim mentality. It resonates with a certain personality that seems to me to resonate more with mass protesting, more inclination towards what we saw around the riots, Summer of Love, BLM riots. There is something within the ideas reflected largely on this side echo with certain types of action versus the ideas reflected on, we'll just say the traditional conservative family, more religious values, the personal responsibility, have a family, conserve the great traditions of the past. There's not as much inclination towards what I just said towards burn it down as opposed to we're all being oppressed by the West, burn it down, which is literally baked into the ideology of

世界的意识形态里。这很有趣，不是吗？因为‘烧毁一切’这种事，我不知道。感觉有点像，如果你告诉十年前的人，右派不会以激烈的方式回应这类事情，我觉得可能会有点令人惊讶。你知道，许多中间派人士的一大担忧是，如果左派不断挑衅，右派最终会回应，这听起来像是你的担忧之一，或者你只是看到各方暴力不断升级。

the world. It's interesting, isn't it? Because the burn it down thing, I don't know. It it feels a little bit like if you were to if you were to tell somebody from ten years ago that it would be, people on the right that weren't responding to this sort of stuff in a kinetic way, I think that might be a little bit surprising. You know, you you, one of the big concerns that lots of people have who are in the center is that if the left keeps on poking the bear, then the right is going to respond eventually, which it sounds like is one of the concerns you have, or you just get escalating violence on all sides.

但右翼确实他妈的全副武装，而且里面可能有很多人是前军人等等等等。所以，如果你只是看双方的特点，我认为应该假设右翼就像他妈的地狱一样。那些人扣扳机会非常快，就像我自己那样，捍卫我的信仰，以那种方式保卫我的部落，而不是表面上看起来更富有同情心、更开放的群体，而且实际情况似乎未必如此。

But the right is really fucking well armed, and there's probably a lot of people in there that are ex military and etcetera, etcetera. So, like, if you were to just take the attributes of both sides, you should assume, I think, that right is like fucking hell. Like, those guys are gonna be pretty quick on the on the trigger, like, myself, defending my beliefs, defending my tribe in that way as opposed to a group that, on the surface, is, like, more compassionate, more open, and it doesn't seem to be necessarily playing out that way.

是的。我认为我们不太可能看到我们想象中的那种内战，即他们正式宣布独立并反抗联邦政府及其所有军队和警察。除非发生一些离奇的情况，比如某些州脱离，否则我实在无法想象。所以当我谈到冲突升级时，我不一定是指内战。而是某种更隐形、更难以察觉的东西，我不太确定。

Yeah. I think it's unlikely that we'll see an civil war in the way we think of civil war, where it's literally an organized like, they have declared themselves independent and they're rebelling against, it would be the federal government with all the military and police. I think that's, unless it was some bizarre, like, certain states went, I just can't imagine it. So when I'm talking about escalating conflict, I don't necessarily mean as a civil war. It's something much more invisible, more difficult to see that I don't I don't know.

我不认为会那样，是的。

I don't think it's gonna yeah.

好吧。那么回到关于校园言论被压制的统计数据。

Alright. So going back to the the stats about campus being shouted down.

是的。

Yeah.

如果言论自由可以被压制，那它到底还存在吗？当它遇到人墙封锁时，这意味着什么？

If free speech can be shouted down, does it even exist at all? Like, what does it mean when it comes into contact with a human arm in arm blockade?

这是个好问题。我会说从哲学上讲，它仍然存在，因为权利总是——我在这方面有点困惑。安德鲁·威尔逊讨论过这个。权利受武力约束。他声称权利归根结底取决于能否被强制执行。所以你的言论自由权，只有在能够被强制执行的情况下才存在，它仍然会受到武力的限制。

That's a good I I would say philosophically, it still does exist because, yes, rights are always I got into a pickle around this. Andrew Wilson was talking about this. Rights are bound by force. Rights he's someone who claims that rights all come down at the end of the day to what can be enforced. So your your right to freedom of speech, it's only if, it still is gonna be bound by force.

这取决于你是否能保护它。但是，是的，人们可以把我喊下去，但这在法律体系的背景下并不能否定。就像，它不能否定我的...但在功能上。是的，在那一刻，功能上，你是在把我喊下去。

It's only if you can protect it. But, yes, I can be people can shout me down, but that doesn't negate within the context of the legal system. Like, it doesn't negate my But functionally. Yeah. In the moment, functionally, you're shouting me down.

是的，我明白。你说话就像一个真正的学者，言论自由的理念、原则、哲学仍然存在。但如果它在现实世界中无法付诸实践，这是否...是我太傻了，还是说这是一件大事？

Yeah. I understand. You've spoken like a a a true academic that the the theory, the principle, the philosophy of pre speech is still there. But if it can't be actioned in the real world, is that am I being am I being stupid here, or is this like a like a big thing?

不。它只是需要达到非常大的规模，因为，好吧，他们在大学校园里把我喊下去。我去做了一个关于此事的YouTube视频，我触及了更多的人。嗯。所以，但在大学校园的那一刻，是的。

No. It would just have to be at such a large scale for it because, okay, they shout me down on the college campus. I go make a YouTube video about it, and I reach way more people. Mhmm. So but in that moment on the college campus, yes.

但我有这样一种个人哲学，我不能...那就是存在客观真理，现实的本质，这反映在我称之为观众的东西上。有点像当你制作YouTube视频时，它不仅仅是人群，你不能忽视，无法逃避他们。所以如果他们在校园里把我喊下去，他们无法逃避观众，而观众反映了现实的本质。然后我确实做了一个视频，这几乎像是他们的行为加剧了，并吸引了更多关注。因为他们正在对一个我认为非常真实的东西采取行动。

But I have this kind of my personal philosophy and I can't is that there's objective truth, the fabric of reality, which is reflected by this, what I call the audience. Kind of when you make a YouTube video, it's this thing that it's not just a mass of people, and you can't ignore, there's no escaping them. So if they shout me down on the campus, they can't escape the audience, which reflects the fabric of reality. So then I do make a video about it, It's almost like their actions compound, and it draws more attention to it. Because they're taking an action against something that I think is very much real.

这些不仅仅是社会建构。言论自由的概念，是的，我们有这些概念化的东西。这是我们用浮于表面的词语来阐述它的方式，但我认为这与开国元勋们提出的‘这些真理是不言而喻的，来自上帝’是同一个理念，客观真理，无论你想用什么替代，但那就是现实的本质。人们可以制造噪音，但没有什么能改变我们正在努力追求的客观真理。我认为知识就是试图映射到什么是真理，这与后现代主义完全相反，而这正是它变得有趣的地方。

These are not just social constructs. The idea of freedom of speech, yes, we have these conceptualizations of them. That's how we use the words floating on the surface to articulate it, but I think these are the same idea the founding fathers put forth with these truths are self evident from God, objective truth, whatever you want to substitute there, but that's the fabric of reality. People can make noise, but nothing can change what is that objective truth that we're striving for. I think that's what knowledge is, is trying to map onto what is truth, which is the exact opposite of postmodernism, though, and that's where it gets interesting.

在我们继续之前，你可能没有吃足够的水果和蔬菜。你知道的。这个会有所帮助。AG1刚刚发布了他们的下一代配方，这是我一直喝了多年的产品的一个更先进、有临床支持的新版本，提供超过75种维生素，包括你的复合维生素、益生元、益生菌、超级食物绿色混合物等等。并且首次新增了热带、柑橘和浆果口味，仅在美国和加拿大有售。

Before we continue, you are probably not eating enough fruit and vegetables. You know it. This is going to help. AG one just released their next gen formula, which is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product I've been drinking every day for years, delivering more than 75 vitamins, including your multivitamin pre and probiotic superfood greens and more. And for the first time, 've added new flavors, tropical, citrus, and berry, only available in The US and Canada.

抱歉插播这个。但你仍然可以保持同样的一勺习惯。现在有了更周密的配方、口味，以及四项以吸收和功效为目标的临床试验支持。AG1自2010年以来一直随着最新研究不断发展，临床证明NexGen有助于填补常见的营养缺口并支持肠道健康，即使在已经饮食良好的人群中也是如此。在一项研究中，它将肠道中的有益细菌增加了10倍。

Sorry for that. But you do still get the same one scoop ritual. Now with an even more thoughtful formulation, flavor, and, four clinical trials behind it designed with absorption and efficacy in mind. AG1 has been evolving continuously since 2010 alongside the latest research, and NexGen is clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps and support gut health even in people who already eat well. In one study, it boosted healthy bacteria in the gut by 10 times.

如果你还不确定，他们有90天退款保证，所以你可以购买并连续试用三个月。如果不满意，他们会全额退款，你没有任何损失。现在，通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问 drinkag1.com/modernwisdom，你可以免费获得一年的维生素D3、K2和AG1旅行装，以及那90天退款保证。网址是 drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。你认为政府资助是否应该取决于大学是否真正保护异议声音？

If you're still unsure, they've got a ninety day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it every single day for three months. If you don't like it, they will just give you your money back, so you've got nothing to lose. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin d three k two and a g one travel packs plus that ninety day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. Do you think government funding should hinge on whether a university actually protects dissenting voices?

保护异议声音。我确实——哦，是的。关于税收有一个很大的讨论，为什么纳税人要资助像埃默森这样的地方。但他们会在这些参数上耍花招。例如，正因为你描述的这个问题，埃默森刚刚把以前的社会正义中心改名了。

Protects dissenting voices. I do oh, yeah. It's there's a big conversation to have around tax, why taxpayers are financing places like Emerson. They're but they get so sneaky in those parameters. So for example, Emerson just changed what used to be the social justice center because of this very issue, what you're describing.

他们只是把名字改成了平等机会办公室，因为平等是机会平等，公平是结果平等。所以他们学到了，这就是大学正在做的，但当你看到视频内容或与学生交谈时，他们——我很惊讶只有34%的人庆祝查理·柯克的汉堡活动。但，是的，我的回答是肯定的。我对政府向这些大学提供税收资金持非常怀疑的态度。

They just changed the name to the Office of Equal Opportunity because equality is equal opportunity, equity is equal outcome. So they learned, and that's what colleges are doing, but then you see the video content or you talk to students, and they're I'm surprised, it's only 34% celebrating Charlie Kirk's burger. It's so but, yeah, to my answer to you would be yes. I don't think I'm very skeptical about the government providing tax money to these universities.

在我看来，儿童和年轻人、学生们似乎没有被教导如何建设性地解决问题。这感觉像是一个技能问题。

It doesn't seem to me like children and young people, students, are being taught to resolve problems constructively. This feels like a skill issue.

是的。我的意思是，我认为这是因为很少有教授——那些本应进行对话的人——持有不同意见。这太一边倒了。除非亲眼所见，否则甚至无法表达，这就是我尝试通过视频做的事情。我最兴奋的时候是当我看到那样的镜头，那是我能做的最接近的方式。

Yeah. I mean, I I I think it's because so few of the professors, the people that would be having the conversations, have differing opinions. It's just overwhelming. It's impossible to even articulate unless you see it for yourself, which is what I'm trying to do with the videos. It's the closest I can do is when I see footage like that, that's when I get most excited.

我制作过的最喜欢的视频是乔·罗根在他的节目中与一位后现代主义教授的对话。因为对我来说，那就像是终于可以照亮一个地方，这是一位真实的教授用自己的话在说这些。因为我可以滔滔不绝地谈论后现代主义直到面红耳赤。乔丹·彼得森也这样做过。但人们就是不相信你，或者只是翻白眼。

My favorite video I ever made was Joe Rogan talking to a postmodern professor on his show. Because to me, that was like, finally, I can shine a light where this is a real professor who's saying these things with his own words. Because I could talk till I'm blue in the face about postmodernism. Jordan Peterson's done it. And people just don't believe you or they just roll their eyes.

而且这太哲学化了。但然后你听到他站出来说，不，没有知识或客观真理这回事。一切都是社会建构。他实际上是在明确表示，不存在所谓的现实结构可以去追求。

And it's too philosophical. But then you hear him get up there and say, no. There's no such thing as knowledge, objective truth. Everything is a social construct. He's effectively he's making it crystal clear that there's no such thing as the fabric of reality to strive for it.

因为知识在不断演变，所以他的逻辑是我们其实什么都不知道。你能看到这会导致什么结果。我想说的是，你必须直接从源头获取信息，这就是我能做到的一个例子。我当时就想，他可是亲口对你说的。所以如果这都不能说明问题，我不知道还有什么能。

Because knowledge is evolving, therefore, his logic is we don't really know anything. You could see where that goes. I guess my point is, like, it's just you have to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, and that was one example where I was able to do that. I was like, he's literally saying it to you. So if this doesn't show you, I don't know what will.

是的。对我来说这有点像反向暴露疗法。由于校园里几乎没有不同的声音，以至于有荒谬比例的学生因为害怕被同学评判和羞辱而自我审查，大学教师的人口结构也在发生变化。甚至上大学的人群结构也在变化，对吧？

Yeah. It it feels a little bit to me like inverse exposure therapy. So the fact that so few alternate voices are going on to campus that whatever some absurd percentage of students self censor for fear of being judged and shamed by their fellow classmates, that you have a changing shifting demographic when it comes to who is teaching at universities as well. You even have a shifting demographic of who's attending universities. Right?

女性上大学的比例相比男性显著增加，而一个没上过

A significant increase in in women going versus men, and it's very difficult to be a university professor that didn't

上过

go to

大学的人很难成为大学教授。所以，未来的教授储备就是那些正在上大学的人。所有这些因素加起来，是科里·克拉克的一项很棒的研究。你应该看看。这很有你的风格。

university. So, like, that is your stock of future professors are the ones that are going. And, all of these things together is a great, great study by Corey Clark. You should have a look at it. It stinks of you.

很有你频道的风格。太棒了。她给美国每一位心理学教授发了调查问卷。不是所有人都回复了，但收到了他妈的一大堆回复，谈论哪些话题不应该被允许，而且存在巨大的性别差异。

It stinks of your channel. Brilliant. And she sent a survey to every psychology professor in The US. Didn't get a response from all of them. Got a big fucking response talking about what topics should not be allowed, and there's a huge sex difference.

男性和女性之间存在巨大的性别差异，差别非常大。这真的非常有趣。我的观点是，当你把这些环境因素综合起来，最终导致学生基本上听不到自上而下、横向或随机包含的其他人的声音，比如演讲嘉宾之类的，实际上还存在由内而外的自我审查。就像，他们接触的话题类型变得越来越脆弱或越来越单一维度。这一切说得通吗？

There's a massive sex difference between men and women, and there's a huge difference. It it was really, really interesting. My point is when you take this milieu altogether, what you end up with is students basically never hearing top down, like, side to side or random inclusions of other people from speakers and and and guests and stuff like that, there is this actually, and inside out, right, with their own self censorship. Like, there is just this a increasing fragility or an increasing sort of uni unidimensionality unidimensionality to the type of topics that they're being exposed to. Does that all make sense?

是的。不。那那绝对是事实。只是情况比这更糟，你完全正确。

Yeah. No. That's that's absolutely true. It's just worse than it's it's you're absolutely right.

我是对的，但情况比我是对的还要糟糕。

I'm right, but it's worse than I'm right.

言语无法形容。这是语言的局限性。就像，没有任何词语能真正捕捉到正在发生的事情。

Words there's no words. This is the limitation of words. Like, there's no words to capture what is actually happening.

怎么说？

How so?

所以好吧。所以当我在制作这些YouTube视频时，或者整个这件事。我们一直在谈论这种媒介的脱敏现象，以及你如何，哦，就是这样那样。一切都开始感觉它只是在线上。它只是为了给赞助商制作内容，这样我才能糊口，而你却迷失了方向。

So Alright. So so when I'm making these YouTube videos, it's like or just this whole thing. We've been talking about the desensitization of this medium and how you oh, it's so and so. And all becomes it all starts to feel it's just online. It's just about making content for sponsors so I could put food on the table and you lose sight of it.

然后事情发生了。砰。查理·柯克被杀了。还有其他事情也发生了。去年，去年圣诞节，我回了家。

Then something happens. Bang. Charlie Kirk gets killed. And it it's and other things have happened. I returned home in the wake last year, last Christmas.

我回了家。就像重新进入现实世界，和我儿时的朋友们坐在一起，他们真的，我刚刚被解雇不久。他们说，就像许多人对查理·柯克事件的反应一样，沃伦，很遗憾你丢了工作，但你对J.K.罗琳说了那些话，所以你还能指望什么？一步一步地逻辑分析，她指出的缺陷，有这些担忧是完全合理的。这提醒了我，这是真实的。

I returned home. It's like reentering the real world, sitting there with my childhood friends who literally, I so I had just been fired before soon. They said, similar to how people responded to the Charlie Kirk thing in many cases, I'm sorry you lost your job, Warren, but you did say this about JK Rowling, so what do you expect? Walking through literally step by step logically, flaws that she's pointing out are completely fair to have those concerns. It's a reminder that this is real.

这里有些东西岌岌可危，当查理·柯克去世时，突然成了一个警钟。这不仅仅是关于赞助商、金钱之类的东西。我忘了说到哪儿了，也忘了我们原本要讨论什么。这不仅仅是言辞的问题。这这这很难捕捉到这些事情到底有多疯狂的真相。

There's something at stake here, and when Charlie Kirk died, suddenly it was a wake up call. It's not just about sponsors, money, and stuff. I forgot where but I forgot where we were going with that. It's more than just words. It's it's it's hard to capture the reality of how crazy this stuff really is.

是的。你认为年轻人支持政治暴力的原因是什么？是因为信念，还是因为麻木不仁？你觉得是怎么回事？

Yeah. What what do you think is going on with young people's support of political violence? Is it because of conviction, desensitization? What do you think is going on?

因为回到我之前对善与恶的担忧，对此要非常小心，因为他们真心相信自己面对的是真正的邪恶。以至于那些像孩子一样的人——我说的是我最好的朋友们，我们从耶托夫时期就一起长大——在他们心中，即使他们不恨我，他们可以在心里原谅我，但我的视频，或者和乔·罗根或其他人交谈，那是在助长某种东西。即使我不邪恶，我在他们看来也参与了一件如此真正邪恶的事情。所以我们需要……然后一切规则都不适用了。这就是为什么你会看到人们失去朋友，做出他们平时绝不会做的事。

Because going back to that fear I had about good and evil and being very careful about that because they genuinely believe that they're facing true evil. So to the point where those child like, I'm talking my best friends, like, grew up together since Yeh Tov, in their minds, even if they don't hate me, I'm giving voice to they can excuse me in their minds, but my videos perhaps or talking to Joe Rogan or whoever, that is is contributing to something. Even if I'm not evil, I'm playing a role in something that is so genuinely truly evil to them. So we need to and then all bets are off. And that's when you see people lose friends, people do things they would never otherwise do.

而解决这个问题的唯一方法是理性的对话。这就是为什么这件事引起了如此大的震动，因为查理正是这么做的。他在做这件事时被杀了。他在执行解决方案时被杀了，但这并没有奏效。他因为做了唯一能防止这种情况的事情而被杀。

And the only solution to this is rational conversations. That's why this thing has made such a wake, because that's exactly what Charlie was doing. He was killed doing just that. He was killed doing the solution, and it didn't work. He was killed for doing the thing that is the only thing you could do to prevent this.

所以这甚至是双重打击。这让事情变得更可怕。但问题是，当我尝试进行那些对话时——回到大多数童年朋友——当我尝试一步一步地进行那些对话时，如果我能和他们坐下来，我真心保证，到最后，他们不会像刚开始那样思考。他们仍然会不同意特朗普的观点。但这并不是重点。

So that's even a double whammy. It makes it even scarier. But the problem is, is that when I try and have those, going back to most childhood friends, when I try and have those conversations step by step, if I can sit down with them, I can genuinely, I guarantee by the end of it, they won't think the way they thought coming into it. They still are gonna disagree with Trump. It's not what it's about.

这关乎更深层的东西。如果给我时间，我可能花一个小时就能达到那个深度。我做过。我在个人生活中一次又一次地和人这样做过。问题是他们会中止对话。

It's about something deeper than that. And I can get there if you get it might take me an hour. I've done it. I've done it over and over with people in my personal life. The problem is that they'll shut down the conversation.

为什么？

Why?

因为这几乎是因为逻辑不成立，就好像他们因为不能——以J·K·罗琳为例，我被解雇了。圣诞节时我坐在门廊上，在我妈妈家。是的，各位。我明白了。所以你是的。

Because it's it's almost because the logic is not there because it's almost as though they because they can't so the JK Rowling example, I get fired. I'm sitting on the porch at Christmas, my mom's house. Yeah, guys. I get alright. So you yes.

我确实那样说过J·K·罗琳。我是和学生说的，但你要明白。对吧？比如，明天——听我说完——明天，有什么能阻止我决定自己是个女人吗？嗯，没有，沃伦，你可以。

I did say that about JK Rowling. I said that with the student, but you do understand. Right? Like, so tomorrow, just hear me out, tomorrow, is there anything stopping me from deciding I'm a woman? Well, no Warren, you could.

这是真的，好吧。所以我仍然有男性生殖器。如果我明天就能走进女更衣室，你能理解为什么一位母亲、一位女性会对此感到不安吗？她们对那有问题。好吧。

It's true, okay. So I still have male genitalia. If I can then tomorrow walk into a women's changing room, can you understand why a a mother, a woman, would be uncomfortable by that? They have a problem with that. Okay.

但如果她是的。但她是成年人。她应该能克服。好吧。但如果她有个六岁的孩子呢？

But what if she's yeah. But she's an adult. She should be able to get over it. Okay. But what if she has a six year old?

你能理解她为什么会对此感到不安吗？而我没办法——你怎么反驳那个论点？如果你看出其中的漏洞，就来挑战我。如果你能对任何事提出反对意见，请务必这样做，因为这才是让事情变得有趣的地方。也会让这有趣得多。

Can you understand why she would be uncomfortable with that? And I there's no way to how do you contend with with that argument? If you can see a flaw in that, challenge me on it. If you can provide any pushback on anything, please do, because that's where these things get interesting. Would make it way more interesting too.

冲突推动故事，这是叙事的核心法则。但这就是我对你的回答，原因就在于此。这只是法则。归根结底是逻辑问题。它

Conflict drives stories, the central law of narrative. But that's my answer to you is why. It's just the law. It comes down to the logic. It

看来你开始明白了，看来这确实触动了你内心深处的一些东西，比如这个使命以及你正面临的挑战，无论是虚拟的还是在你个人生活中，试图正面应对这个问题。

seems like you are getting it it seems like this is sort of really hitting at at something deep for you, like this mission and the challenges that you're facing by sort of trying to come head to head with this, whether it's virtually or in your personal life.

是的，这确实令人愤怒。这就是我对他们的回应，对家人也是如此，当他们那样说的时候，我会说：听着。如果我回家时每个人都——这是在病毒视频或YouTube之类的东西出现之前。那是很多年前的事了。

Yeah. It's been infuriating. It's it's and that would be my response to them, a family member, when they say that's like, look. If everyone when I come home or if and this is before viral videos or doing YouTube or anything. This was years ago.

我会说，听着。如果你们每个人都因为这个而恨我，对吧？如果所有人，你的朋友们，他们都恨我，但我仍然愿意进行这些对话，并想一步一步理性地带你走过这个过程，也许这表明，如果我还在这样做，并且我仍然坚持立场，也许这可以作为一个指标，说明我已经深思熟虑过，并且我有我的理由。我认为这又回到了你之前的问题。

I'd say, look. If I'm every one of you hates me because of this. Right? If all people, your friends, they all hate me, but if I'm still willing to have these conversations, and want to rationally step by step walk you through it, maybe that would indicate that if I'm still doing this, and I'm still standing firm on it, maybe that would be an indicator that I've thought this through, and I have a reason why. And I think that goes back to your previous question.

我认为这就是他们终止对话的原因之一，因为有些事情，这又回到了逻辑本身。我已经想通了。就像，我有理由。这就是为什么爱默生学院的那个视频对我如此重要，因为那是我有机会展示我一直在经历的事情，展示我多年来与之交谈的人们。这无法用言语形容，但用摄像机，我可以展示出来。

That's one of the reasons I think that they shut down the conversations because there's something, there's, that kind of goes back to the logic of it. It's, I have thought this through. Like, I have a reason. That's why that video at Emerson was so important to me because that was my opportunity to kinda to shine a window on what I've been going like, what I've the people I have sat with for years. And it's there's no words for it, but I can with a camera, I can show it.

我不需要言语。

I don't need words.

是的，这很奇怪。我想我们现在离感恩节也不远了，每年都会有同样的梗出现。是的。比如，今年如何与你偏执的叔叔交谈，或者基于这个的反向版本，即三句话彻底搞砸今年的感恩节晚餐。人们会思考这个问题的，老兄。

Yeah. It's it's weird. I guess we're not too far off from Thanksgiving now, and every year, there's the same sort of memes come up Yeah. On, like, how to speak to your bigoted uncle this year over the or the sort of based reverse version of that, which is three sentences to say to totally torpedo this year's Thanksgiving dinner. And people are gonna be thinking about this, man.

我很想，你知道，做一个调查会很好但也极其困难，就是某种分析，比如感恩节餐桌上的平均音量、情感分析、说话节奏和对抗性。就像一年一次的小测试，就像从地里取出的岩心样本。我会取这个，取这个，取这个。我不得不假设那条曲线现在变得他妈的很陡峭，真的，真的升得很高了。我想我还有一个问题，我们总是听到这个围绕特朗普的问题。你知道，人们开了很多关于“为，引号，字面意义上的希特勒，思想和祈祷”的玩笑，很难用一句话说这个人是法西斯主义者，是末日的开始，是第三帝国的转世，而用另一句话又表示同情。

I would love you know, would be great and ridiculously difficult to do as a a survey would be some sort of analysis of the average volume, like sentiment analysis and volume and speaking cadence and, like, antagonism around the Thanksgiving table. Like, it's just a one once per year little test, like a a a core sample right out of the ground. I will take this one and take this one and take this And I have to assume that that curve is just getting really fucking steep and, like, really, really getting up there now. And I I think another question that I've got we we always hear we heard this around Trump. You know, people made a bunch of jokes about, thoughts and prayers to, quote, literally Hitler, that it's very difficult to, with one sentence, say that this guy is fascist, beginning of the end, reincarnation of the Third Reich, and with the other, show compassion.

而这两件事似乎有点难兼顾，因为，我猜，潜台词、言外之意是，你在第一种情况下使用的语言是导致需要道歉的事件的原因。对吧？当你使用煽动性语言，当你使用某种暴力媒体时，我的问题基本上是，这在多大程度上塑造了年轻人对现实世界暴力的容忍度？它是仅仅反映了自下而上正在发生的事情，还是实际上在推动它，使这种语言正常化，妖魔化一方和另一方，而且这并非只朝一个方向发展，妖魔化是双向的。

And that those two things seem a little bit tough because, I guess, the subtext, the implication is the language that you used in the first case is the reason for the event which caused the need for the apology. Right? That when you use inflammatory language, when you use sort of violent media, my question is basically how much of that is shaping young people's tolerance for real world violence? Like, is it just reflecting what's happening bottom up, or is it actually pushing it forward sort of normalizing this kind of language, demonizing one side and the other, and it's not as if this is only going in one direction, like the demonization goes in both.

是的。但问题是确实存在客观上错误的行为，确实有正当理由指出这些行为是错误的。比如，我认为可以明确地说，庆祝查理·柯克的死亡是客观上错误的，我们看到的一些回应已经越过了我认为客观可衡量的界限。再次强调，这是因为我们通过故事来看待世界。我们是叙事性生物，冲突推动故事发展，正是这一点驱使人们真心相信对方是邪恶的，同时也牢记邪恶确实存在，我们可以看到这方面的例子。

Yeah. But there's there's legitimate that's the problem is is there's legitimately wrong behavior, objectively wrong behavior. Like, I I think it is safe to say that it's objectively wrong to celebrate Charlie Kirk's death, and some of the responses we've seen are crossing, I think, an objective, measurable line. Again, it's because we see the world through stories. We make sense because we're narrative creatures, and conflict drives story, and it's this thing that's driving people to genuinely believe the other side is evil while also holding the thought in mind that there is evil there, and we can see examples of where that is.

这就是为什么我一开始那样回应，因为它确实存在。只是需要小心对待。唯一的解决办法是教育那些声称这些事与法西斯主义有关的人。人们需要更多地解释法西斯主义实际上是什么。这就是为什么我一直说，我确实有机会和乔·罗根交谈，我试图和他深入探讨这一点，因为对我来说，那是一个具有深刻洞察力的独特时间窗口。

That's why I started the response with that, because it does exist. You just gotta be careful about it. The only solution is to teach people that are claiming these things about fascism. People need to explain more what fascism actually is. That's why I keep saying, I did get to talk to Joe Rogan, and I was trying to delve into that a little bit with him because that is the singular to me, a window in time that has so much insight.

看看今天，人们随意抛出法西斯主义这个词，这反映了他们自己，但他们并不理解法西斯主义是什么。是的，很难用一句话来定义，但我认为其核心是通过武力专制追求民族纯洁性，大致如此，然后其他组成部分可以替换。但这是一场危险的游戏。也许我误解了你的问题，你是想问，这种想法是从哪里来的？

And look today, it's people are throwing around fascism, which echoes back to them, but they don't understand what fascism is. And yeah, it is difficult to define in a single sentence, but I think it's the authoritarian pursuit of national purity through force, something around those lines at the very core of it, and then components could be switched out. But it's a dangerous it's a dangerous game. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the I think you're asking, like, how to where that's coming from?

基本上是哪个方向？是不是简单就是暴力性的，它有多大影响？这是个老问题，比如，暴力游戏会让孩子们变得暴力吗？我问的是，暴力媒体，比如那种煽动性语言，尤其是逐步升级并使用历史上或电影中或其他来源的可怕例子来描述某人。但乔丹·彼得森被比作红骷髅，对吧，来自漫威漫画。

Which direction, basically? Is it simply is the violent how impactful it's the age old question of, like, do violent video games make children violent? What I'm asking is, is violent media, as in the sort of language, inflammatory, especially sort of escalating up and and using really horrific examples of people from history or from movies or from whatever to describe someone. But Jordan Peterson was Red Skull, right, from Oh. The Marvel comics.

我肯定在某个地方有人用过灭霸的例子，我也肯定右翼同样在散布他们那份关于谋杀的言论，不管这个具体的人是谁，是来给年轻人绝育还是怎么的。

I'm sure that there's been a Thanos example used somewhere, and I'm sure that the right as well is slinging its fair share of murder, whatever this particular person is that's coming in to sterilize the youth or whatever

也许可以聚焦于此。比如，在右翼那边会有什么例子？因为我知道这绝对发生在左翼那边，比如红骷髅，法西斯主义的指控。到处都是。但另一边会是什么，让我们试着在另一边识别一下。

it may hone in on that. Like, what would an example be on the right? Because I know it it's absolutely happening on the on the left, like, Red Skull, the the accusations of fascism. It's everywhere. But what would be let's try and identify it on the other side.

所以对我来说，问题在于，对这类故事的回应总是比最初的故事本身规模更大，这意味着，鉴于我在网上关注的大部分内容是中间偏右的，我看到的是疯狂的中间偏左的故事，然后被来自Daily Wire或其他什么机构的人回应。这似乎是在试图等同看待，基本上，至少给我自己一个机会承认我并非无所不知。我没有看到整个互联网。我在想，好吧，既然如此，也许外面确实有一些东西。

So the problem for me, I think, is that the response to these sorts of stories is always larger than the initial story itself, and that means that given most of what I follow online is center, center right, what I see is crazy left of center stories that are then being responded to by somebody from the Daily Wire, whatever whatever it might be. It does seem to I'm trying to equivocate, basically, to at least give the opportunity that I don't know everything. I'm I I don't see all of the Internet. And I'm like, look. Given that, maybe there is some stuff out there.

我必须假设存在某些情况，但你可能说得对。我的视角可能非常具有代表性。在理解我在互联网上看到的内容时，我的样本可能是绝对完美的。如果按照我自己的算法——这显然带有极大的偏见——如果按照我自己的算法，我会说，是的。从左到右似乎确实有更多那种煽动性语言，那种纯洁性螺旋的东西，那种自以为是的、非常具有指责性、报复性、过度夸张的语言似乎确实朝着一个方向发展，但我需要让自己保持开放的心态，承认

I have to assume that there is some stuff, but you might be right. I may have a perfectly representative perspective. My sample may be, like, absolutely perfect when it comes to understanding what I see on the Internet. If I was to go by my own algorithm, which is obviously hugely fucking biased, if I was to go by my own algorithm, I would say, yes. There does seem to be a lot more of that inflammatory language going from left to right, the purity spiral stuff, the holier than thou, the very, very sort of accusatory, vindictive, over exaggerated language does seem to go in one direction, but I just need to leave myself open to the fact that

我明白你的意思。

I see what you mean.

我不 这是在

I don't It's on

右翼也有。你说得对。有人对犹太人提出指控，诸如此类的事情。这是有...我的意思是，种族主义，我在X平台上看到过。有些界限，我个人认为某些不应该越界的界限在X平台上确实被越过了。

the right too. You're right. There's people the accusations around Jews, things like that. It's there's there's I mean, racism, there's I you see it on X. There's lines being that, personally, I don't think that there are certain lines I don't think should be crossed are being crossed on X, for sure.

你说得对。嗯。

You're right. Mhmm.

是的。另外，Shopify为美国10%的电子商务公司提供支持。他们是Gymshark、Skims、Allo和Nutanix背后的驱动力，这就是我与他们合作的原因，因为在将浏览者转化为买家方面，他们是业界顶尖的。他们的结账流程平均比其他领先的商业平台好36%。通过Shop Pay，您可以将转化率提高多达50%。

Yeah. In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all ecommerce companies in The United States. They are the driving force behind Gymshark, Skims, Allo, and Nutanix, which is why I partnered with them, because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions by up to 50%.

他们提供获奖的支持服务，在每一步都为您提供帮助。听着，您创业不是为了学习编码、建站或做后端库存管理。Shopify处理所有这些事情，让您专注于您来这里要做的工作，即设计和销售出色的产品。升级您的业务，在Shopify上使用与Nutanic相同的结账系统。

They've got award winning support there to help you every step of the way. Look. You are not going into business to learn how to code or build a website or do back end inventory management. Shopify takes care of all of that and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that I use with Nutonic on Shopify.

现在，您可以通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问shopify.com/modernwisdom（全部小写）注册每月1美元的试用期。那就是shopify.com/modernwisdom，立即升级您的销售体验。是的。我的意思是，你曾有过这样的想法：当你意识到某种行为已经过头时。比如，是否存在正确与错误行为之间的界限？

Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to upgrade your selling today. Yeah. I mean, you had you had this idea about when when you know that sort of behavior has gone too far. Like, is there such a thing, the line between correct and incorrect behavior?

说得对。这正是问题的核心，因为回到后现代思维——大多数附和这种观点的人并未意识到他们谈论的正是后现代主义。当你去看治疗师时，对他们来说，不存在所谓正确行为。他们不会告诉你该怎么做，只会给予肯定，因为一切都只是视角问题。

There you go. That's the that's the question at the heart of it because so going back to postmodern thinking, which most people echoing the sentiment don't realize they're talking about postmodernism. So you go to a therapist, the therapist, to them, there's no such thing as correct behavior. They're not gonna tell you what to do. They're just gonna affirm because it's just a matter of perspective.

不存在做某事的正确方式。在那个世界观里，任何情境下都没有理想行为。但我不同意。这就是为什么我谈论我们努力追求的现实结构。即使无法达到那个理想，你也必须有个目标来瞄准，这意味着理想是存在的——无论我们能否实现它。

There's no such thing as the right way to do something. There is no ideal behavior in any given scenario in that world view. But I disagree. That's why I talk about the fabric of reality, which we strive for. Even if you can't achieve that ideal, you have to have the target to aim for, which means there is an ideal whether we can achieve it or not.

在任何给定情境下，都存在最佳行为方式。如果你有平行宇宙可以测量每种不同行动类型，然后实际观察结果，比较这些结果，逻辑上必然有一个结果优于所有其他潜在结果。必须存在一个最优解，但你需要有量化的方法。答案是：是的，存在最优解，但我们已迷失了这一点。它变成了这种后现代观念：一切都只是视角问题且同等有效。

There is a best way to behave in any given scenario. And you can judge that if you had parallel universes that you could measure each different type of action and then you could actually see the outcomes, you could compare those outcomes and one logically will have to be better than all other potential outcomes. One has to be, but you have to have a way to quantify it. To answer, yeah, there is, we've lost sight of that. It's become this postmodern idea of everything is just a matter of perspective and is equally valid.

没有叙事，没有共享的元叙事。不存在优于其他故事的理想共享故事。一切平等。都只是视角问题。这确实是个危险——这确实是个危险的想法，所以我很高兴你提到这一点。

There's no narrative, no shared meta narrative. There's no ideal shared story that is better than any other story. Everything is equal. It's just a matter of perspective. It's really a dangerous that's really a dangerous idea, So I'm glad you mentioned that.

你如何你如何

How do you how do

将其操作化？对一个社会来说，说某种行为不好或过头了，或者说这是一条正在被跨越的界限，这意味着什么？你之前提到过。我感觉有一条线被跨越了。对吧。

you operationalize this? How do you what does it mean for a society to say that behavior is bad or that it's gone too far or that that this is something this is this is a line that's being crossed. You mentioned that before. I feel like a line has been crossed. Right.

那是在言论中越界的一句话。对吧？是的。跟我谈谈这个。我需要你深入探讨这一点。

That was a line has been crossed within speech. Right? Yes. Talk to me about that. I need you to dig into that.

这就是为什么我们需要法律框架，因为这是我们最接近用白纸黑字界定这些界限的方式。以言论自由为例，我们如何确定言论何时越过了那条客观界限？仇恨言论？不，因为谁能定义仇恨言论？我们无法定义。没有办法确定那条界限在哪里。

That's why we have the legal framework because that's the closest we can come to writing in black and white what these lines are. So freedom of speech, for example, how do we determine when speech crosses that objective line? Well, hate speech, no, because who can define hate speech? We can't. There's no way to determine where that line exists.

所以我们能做的最好的、最不坏的处理方式——所有方式都会有缺陷——最不坏的一种是说，好吧，我们有这些法律来划定这些界限，比如煽动暴力、诽谤等等，但那些是法律。除此之外，你有合法的言论自由。现在，雇主可以制定他们自己的框架，因为他们有自由决定支付给谁以及如何支付，但我们讨论的是那个更大的框架，而这正是法律所起的作用，这也是为什么J.K.罗琳的辩论最终又回到了现实问题，即法律框架。明天，如果我能决定自己是个女人，真正的问题是，我在法律上是个女人吗？而不是，你需要用我的代词吗？

So the best we can do, the least bad way of approaching this, they're all gonna be flawed, the least bad one is to say, okay, we have these laws that draw these lines, calls to violence, defamation, whatever they are, but those are laws. Beyond that, you have legal freedom of speech. Now, an employer can create their own framework, because they have the freedom to pay who they want to pay and how they want to do it, but we're talking about that larger framework, and that's really what laws act as, which is why the JK Rowling debate comes back to where the rubber meets the road, which is the legal framework. Tomorrow, if I can decide that I'm a woman, the real question is, am I a woman under the law? Not, do you need to use my pronoun?

这才是问题所在。其他一切都低于这个问题。问题是，我在法律上是否被当作女性对待？因为今天，如果我走进那个空间，那个更衣室，他们有权报警。那么明天，如果我能决定自己是女性并走进同一个空间，他们还有权报警吗？

That is the question. Everything else is beneath that question. It's, am I treated as a woman under the law? Because today, if I were to walk into that space, that changing room, they have the legal right to call the police. Now, tomorrow, if I can decide on my woman and I walk in that same space, do they have the legal right to call the police?

这有更广泛的影响，而这就是J.K.罗琳一直试图向所有人阐明的。仅此而已。一切都回到这一点，而这一切又都回到法律框架，这是我们试图创建这些客观界限的努力。

It has larger ramifications, and that's what JK Rowling has been trying to articulate to everyone. Just that. It all comes back to that, which all comes back to the legal framework, which is our attempt to create these objective lots.

嗯，我的意思是，我本来想说，我们必须依赖法律框架才能让人们以亲社会的方式行事，这很遗憾，但也许这就是人性吧。

Well, I mean, it is I mean, I was gonna say it's a shame that we have to rely on the legal framework to get people to behave in a prosocial manner, but maybe that's just, like, human nature is

我不认为我们需要这样。只是我们必须有一些成文的规定。我们必须有这些约束。

I don't think we do. It's just we have to have some we have to have it written. We have to have the constraints.

是的。抱歉。我的意思并不是说这种东西存在很可惜——它显然有必要存在。我的观点是，我们现在不得不依赖这种东西来思考，而不是依靠基本的礼仪、共同的人性等等，这很可悲。当你不把人们视为邻居，不把他们当人看时，就会出现大规模的规模性问题。

Yeah. Sorry. I don't mean I I don't mean that it's a shame that that is a thing that exists. It obviously needs to exist. My point is it's a shame that we're having to think about that as what we now rely on as opposed to, you know, common decency, shared humanity, etcetera, etcetera, like massive scaling problem when you don't see people as your neighbor, you don't see them as human.

我意识到了这一点。我曾有过这样的洞察。我认为观察彼得森的崛起是我第一次真正看到这种现象。似乎存在一个名声、曝光度或恶名的阈值。当人们跨越这个阈值时，世界上很大一部分人就不再把他们当人看了。

I realized this. There was there was this insight that I'd had. I think watching the rise of of Peterson was the first one that I really saw this with. There seems to be a level of fame or exposure or notoriety threshold. And when people cross that, some big portion of the world doesn't see them as a human anymore.

他们被视为思想的集合体。他们是某种意识形态、故事或叙事的代表？

They see them as a conglomeration of ideas. They're a representation of an like an ideology or or or story or narrative or something?

正是这样。因为我们是叙事生物，通过故事看世界，我们无法将角色与故事分开。所以当你看到乔·罗根、乔丹·彼得森时，你心理上所有的过往背景都在影响你对他们的看法。真正感知这种效应巨大影响的唯一方法，是通过平行宇宙，让一个像特朗普这样的政治家提出完全相同的行动和政策，但没有特朗普的背景故事。这样你就能看到观众如何反应，并得到一些可量化的结果。

Right there. The story, because we see, because we're narrative creatures and we see the world through stories, we cannot separate the character from the story. So when you see Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, it's all the past context you have psychologically is impacting how you see them. The only way to really perceive the massive amount of that effect would be to have parallel universes where you could have a politician who's Trump do the exact same action, same proposed policy, but doesn't have the backstory, the story of Trump. And you could see how the audience responds, and you could have some quantifiable outcome.

这是我们唯一能开始真正观察这种效应有多强大的方法。

That's the only way we could ever begin to really observe just how powerful this effect is.

但你注意到的是，至少当我看到这个阈值被突破时，人们似乎准备好去做和说一些他们不会对没有那种“故事护甲”的人做的事情——不管他们认为自己拥有什么，还没有经历过那种高度。这令人沮丧。想到这些人仍然是另一边的普通人，令人沮丧。比如，如果你说了这件事或发送了这件事，我已经花了七年半的时间。你会成为第1005期节目。

But the thing that you notice, at least that that that I saw when this threshold is has been breached, people seem to be prepared to do and say things that they wouldn't of a person who doesn't have that story armor, whatever it is that they think that they've got, that hasn't gone through that altitude. And it was disheartening. It was disheartening to think, you know, these people are still people on the other side of this. Like, if you say this thing or send this thing, the I've spent the last seven and a half years. You're you'll be episode, like, 1,005.

在构建这个平台的整个旅程中，从来没有一个人坐下来教过我那种超级秘密的技巧——那种只教给在互联网上稍微有点名气的人如何在不感到非常困扰的情况下应对糟糕事情的方法。就像，没有——你知道，香槟问题。你知道这是什么问题吗？你不知道有人处于贫困中吗？你只需要制作视频。

At no point on this journey to building this platform has someone sat me down and taught me about, like, the super secret squirrel technique that is only taught to people that are moderately fucking well known on the Internet of how to not feel really disturbed when nasty shit happens. Like, there's no and and the you know, champagne problems. You know, what an issue. Do you not know that people are in poverty? You just need to make video.

嗯，我并不是不同意，但社会问题终究是社会问题。比如，如果你感到被排斥、谴责或被指控所有这些问题，那会很艰难。而且，是的，对我来说非常有趣的是，当你达到某个规模时，就不再被视为人类，这会改变人们的行为方式。我担心查理·柯克（Charlie Kirk）也已经突破了那个界限。

All Hey. I I do not disagree, but the social issues are still a social issues. Like, if you felt ostracized or condemned or or or, like, you were being accused of all of these things, it would be tough. And, yeah, it it was just it was really interesting to me that there is a size that you get to where you are no longer seen as a human, and it changes the way that people behave. And I fear that Charlie Kirk Charlie Kirk had breached that as well.

是的，我不太了解那个。我没有达到你那样的规模。查理·柯克确实如此，但我觉得你说得对。我想我以前听你谈论过这个。

Yeah. I don't I wouldn't know about that. I'm not near that size you have. Charlie Kirk did, but I think you're right. I think you're I've heard you talk about this before.

我理解这是真实的，我知道人们会把它当作香槟问题（指富人的烦恼）来 dismiss，但它确实伴随着包袱。就我做的这点事情来说，是的，它肯定是有代价的。

I understand it's a real and I know people dismiss it as champagne problems, but it comes with baggage. Just my little bit of whatever this is that I'm do it yeah. It's it has there's a cost for sure.

但我觉得不仅仅是代价的问题。而是人们看待那些个体时缺乏人性，比如乔·罗根（Joe Rogan），你可以对那个人做任何事说任何话。或者，你知道，选另一边的人。天哪，就像去年关于乔·拜登的一些言论，无论真假或是否有趣，都他妈的很可怕。

But it's it's not just the cost, I don't think. It's the lack of it's the lack of humanity from people seeing seeing those individuals that, like, Joe Rogan like, you can do and say whatever you want about that guy. Or, you know, like, pick somebody on the other side. Like, holy fuck. Like, some of the stuff, true or not, funny or not, that was said about Joe Biden last year was fucking horrific.

想想如果你是那个人。你是一个被推到一个生理上真的、真的会很挣扎的位置的人，可能被注射了各种他们需要的东西来让这匹赛马跑完四年。我只是觉得，哦，这让我感到非常难过。真的、真的为他感到难过，为乔·拜登这个人类感到难过。天哪。

Like, think about if you are that guy. You're this dude who has been thrust into a position that you were physiologically really, really gonna struggle with, probably pumped with all manner of whatever they needed to keep that racehorse running for the space of four years. And you're just like, oh, it may it made me feel really sad. Made me feel really, really sad for him, for the human that is Joe Biden. Like, holy fuck.

他所经历的一切太可怕了。但人们只是说，嗯，你知道，操。你爬到顶峰，箭就会射向你之类的。我不知道。也许我太懦弱了。

It's so awful what he had to go through. And but people are just like, well, you know, like, fuck. You rise to the top, and you're you're you're the the arrows are gonna be slung your way or whatever. I don't know. Maybe I'm too much of a pussy.

不，不。不是你懦弱。是因为你的自我控制得很好，你的自我没有因为成功而扭曲。你是个帅气的家伙，高大，出众，所有那些东西。

No. No. It's not that you're being a pussy. It's because you because your ego is in check, and you have so your ego's not flawed because you've achieved success. You're like a handsome guy, tall, you out, whatever, all that stuff.

你无需证明什么。所以你现在的处境是，我明白你的意思。我不知道该怎么形容。我找不到合适的词语，但这归根结底是我对自我执着的依附，我经常遇到这种情况，老兄。自我确实是情感的死亡，而情感源于自我。

You don't have anything to prove. So you are now in this place where you have the I get what you mean. I don't know the words for it. I don't know how to describe it, but it comes down to the attachment to ego that I've and I encounter that often, man. It's ego is really the emotion is the death of reason, and motion comes from ego.

自我与非人化他人之间有什么关系？

What's the relationship with ego and dehumanizing people?

我认为我们往往从自我的立场出发想要非人化他人。这就像，嗯，要看具体例子。也许如果你讨厌某个人，比如同事——这可能不是个好例子因为是同事——但他们拥有你没有的东西。或者有人做了个视频批评克里斯·威廉姆森对某个政治议题的看法，你会不会用一个有点离谱的反驳视频来回应？而一个会这样回应的人很可能是在出于自我，我认为这往往源于我们称之为自我的东西。

I think we want to dehumanize people from a place of ego often. It's like well, it depends on the example. Maybe if you dislike someone, a coworker, for example, maybe this is a bad example because it'd be a coworker, but they have something you don't have. Or someone makes a video criticizing Chris Williamson's take on this political thing, and do you respond with a counter video that's kind of going off the wall? And when you a person that would respond is probably doing so from a place of ego, I think it often comes from that thing that we call ego.

自我意味着什么，我们可以 是的。

What ego means we could Yeah.

至少对我来说，它或许部分属于香槟问题那种情况。这个人有足够多的事情，系统里就像有个压舱物，对吧？他们有足够的缓冲稳定性，以至于我可以用他们作为一种修辞上的出气筒。几年前乔丹生病时，或者去年那个在家里被拿着锤子的家伙攻击的人是谁来着？

At least for me, it it perhaps part of it is the champagne problems thing. This person has enough going on that the there's, like, a ballast in the system. Right? They've got, like, enough enough buffer stability that I can use them as this sort of, like, rhetorical punching bag in a way. When Jordan was ill a few years ago, or when who was the guy who got attacked by the dude in the with with the hammer in the house, like last year?

是的。我忘记他的名字了

Yeah. I forget his

不是伊丽莎白·沃伦的丈夫。是别人的丈夫。在那件事上，你会说，天啊。就像一个老人在自己家里被人攻击。看看吧。

Not Elizabeth Warren's husband. Somebody else's husband. And on that, you go, Jesus Christ. Like an old dude getting attacked by a guy in his house. And look.

也许这只是历史上最老生常谈的观点，就是人一旦出名，别人就会嘲笑他们，变得刻薄。可能就是这样，但我觉得这背后似乎还有更深层的东西，一种人性的丧失。我在想这是不是部落主义，这个人开始代表某种你同意或反对的东西。所以他们有点像某种旗帜的扛旗者、图腾或吉祥物，你要么支持这个东西，要么反对这个东西。如果这是个大事，你就会向它射箭；如果你支持它，你就会激烈地捍卫它。

Maybe this is just what maybe this is the most basic bitch point in history, which is people become famous, and then people take the piss out of them and are mean. Like, perhaps it's that, but it feels like it's something a little bit deeper than that to me, this sort of loss of humanity. And I wonder whether it's tribalism that this person begins to represent something that you either agree with or disagree with. So they're kind of like a flag bearer in some sort of a way or a totem or a mascot, and, like, you're behind this thing or you're against this thing. And if it's a big thing, like, you kind of throw arrows at it or and if you're with it, then you kind of defend it vehemently.

你知道，这自然就会升级挑衅性语言。也许这起了作用。我觉得确实如此。

And that, you know, just naturally sort of spirals up the inflammatory language. Maybe that plays a role. I feel I feel like it does.

是的。我是说，以乔丹·彼得森为例，如果人们……是的。他们攻击他的方式，他们将继续的方式，很多时候，我认为这确实源于他们自身缺失的那部分。这几乎像是他们在某种程度上嫉妒，虽然他们可能永远不会承认，无论是他的思维能力、他的成就，还是他能安然跨越两个世界而不落入某一个部落。你说的这种团队心态，我觉得很愚蠢，因为很多人就像是在说‘我是这个队的’。

Yeah. I mean, this the example of Jordan Peterson, if people were people yeah. The way they were attacking him, the way they're gonna continue, oftentimes, I do think it comes from that part that's missing from them. It's almost as though they're jealous of, in some way, they would never say this probably, whether it's his ability to think what he has achieved or being at peace with straddling two worlds and not, you know, falling into one tribe. What you're talking about this team mentality, think, is so silly because we where it's people so many people are it's like, I'm on this team.

因此，我要勾选所有框框，这就是他们形成想法的方式。我只是不明白，为什么不逐点遵循逻辑呢？

Therefore, I'm gonna check off all the boxes, and that's how they form their thinking. It's just I don't understand that as opposed to going point by point following the logic.

嗯，是的。我是说，如果我知道你一个观点，就能准确预测你相信的所有其他东西，那你可能不是一个认真的思考者。

Well, yeah. I mean, if you if I know one of your opinions, and from it, I can accurately predict everything else that you believe, you're probably not a serious thinker.

对。

Right.

对吧？你拿了一件连体衣穿上，就说那是一套 outfit（行头）。但不对，那是单一思维。对吧？你知道，这是因为对答案的需求超过了大多数人的供给。

Right? You've you've taken a onesie and put it on and called it an outfit. But, no, that that's a mono thinking. Right? And, you know, it's because the demand for answers outstrips most people's supply.

在这种情况下，你必须对所有问题进行改造。所有问题都得到同样的答案。一切都是气候变化，或者一切都是资本主义，或者一切都是进步主义，或者一切都是LGBT。一切都是法西斯主义。是的。

And in in that case, you have to retrofit all issues. All questions are given the same answer. Everything is climate change or everything is capitalism or everything is progressivism or everything is LGBT. Everything is fascism. Yeah.

这种单一思维是一个很好的捷径。人脑喜欢这些，对吧？是的。但这是一种迹象，就像，如果你只是——这里有一个很好的思考方式。

And that mono thinking is a great shortcut. The human brain loves those. Right? Yeah. But it's an indication like, if you've just here's a good way to think about it.

你喜欢的创作者、你阅读的人或某个新闻撰稿人，他们上一次用他们的观点让你感到惊讶是什么时候？比如，我会说，比尔·马赫是经常用他的观点让我惊讶的人，而山姆·哈里斯他妈几乎总是用他的观点让我惊讶。如果我掷骰子试图预测比尔·马赫或山姆·哈里斯接下来会说什么，我确实有一些预测能力，但说实话，没那么强。然后我就会想，哇，这家伙。

When was the last time that a content creator that you like or a, person that you read or some news contributor, when was the last time that they surprised you with their take? Like, I would say, for instance, that Bill Maher is somebody who regularly surprises me with his takes, and that makes me Sam Harris fucking almost always surprises me with his takes. If I was to, like, roll a dice and try and predict what it is that's going to come next out of Bill Maher or Sam Harris, there's some I have some predictive power, but not that much, to be honest. And I'm like, wow. That fuck.

我没想到他会那么说。这很好。我认为这是一件好事。但对于你这边的人来说，这感觉就像你是一个不可靠的盟友；而对于另一边的人来说，这看起来像是缺乏信念。就像，看，看，他在那件事上不跟他们站在一起。

I didn't think he was gonna say that. And that's good. I think that's a good thing. But what it feels like to people on your side, it looks it feels like you're an unreliable ally, and what it looks like to people on the other side is a lack of conviction. It's like, see, see, he's not with them on that thing.

我的意思是，他可能在别的事情上跟他们站在一起，但在1月6日事件上他不跟他们站在一起，他在COVID口罩问题上跟他们站在一起，但在移民问题上又不跟他们站在一起。然后你就会想，好吧。这对双方来说都是一个机会，无论是你自己阵营的人还是对方阵营的人。他们都不会因为你持不同意见而同意你。对方会记得你之前不同意他们，而你自己的阵营则会想，沃伦，真他妈该死。

I mean, he was with them on whatever, but January 6, he's not with them there, and he was with them on COVID masking, but he's not with them on immigration. And you go, okay. That looks so much like an opportunity for both sides, like people on in your own camp and people in the other camp. Neither of them are gonna agree with you for you dissenting. The other group is gonna remember the fact that you didn't agree with them previously, and your own group is gonna be like, well, Warren, fucking hell.

我以为你在枪支管制上是跟我们站在一起的。是的。你在移民问题上跟我们站在一起，或者你在经济政策或医疗保健上跟我们站在一起。我我痴迷于这个想法。他妈的对这个我认为的想法痴迷不已。

I thought you were with us on gun control. Yeah. You were with us on immigration, or you're with us on economic policy or on health care. And I I'm obsessed with this idea. Fucking obsessed with this idea of what I think.

这太酷了。

It's so cool.

尤其是在涉及高风险话题时，比如基督教之类的，这些话题归根结底关乎信仰。乔丹·彼得森在Jubilee节目上的遭遇就是如此，他因此受到的批评我觉得很可笑。但他有一个非常有趣的回应，本质上是实用主义的论点。他说：‘因为我能触及更多人。除了私密性和极端复杂性之外，我不愿深谈还有原因。’他这个人总是游走在现实边缘，认为词语只是工具，实质内容都在表面之下，正是这种认知赋予他独特的能力，因为他用这些工具做到了别人做不到的事。

And that's especially when it comes to high we'll call them high stakes topics like Christianity or whatnot, where it comes down to faith and belief. And that's essentially what happened with Jordan Peterson Jubilee, the criticism he got from that, which I think is silly. But he had a really interesting response to that, where it was essentially an argument of utility. He's saying, Because I can reach more people. There's a reason that I don't want to, beyond just that it's private and it's extremely complicated, he's a guy who's always straddling that reality that words are just the tools and everything of substance is beneath the service, and that's what gives him that ability because he's doing things with those tools no one else does.

他实际上是在尝试用极其复杂的话题触及更多人。基督教的问题在于——我确实对此感到挣扎，虽然自认是基督徒，但我难以接受‘只要说对某些话就能成为基督徒’的观念。很多人似乎真心认为必须明确宣称某些教义才能得救，这对他们至关重要——必须说对话语。

He's actually trying to reach more people with an incredibly complicated topic. The problem is with Christianity, it's literally I struggle with them. Consider myself a Christian, but I struggle with the idea that all you need to do is say the right words, and that makes you a Christian. And if you don't say the right words and claim so many people, like, genuinely seem to believe that it's you have to literally just proclaim certain things in order to be saved. That's really important to them, the words, that you say the right words.

我并非不认同这些信仰，但乔丹·彼得森关于这个话题的某些说法确实让我在直觉层面产生共鸣。

I'm not disagreeing with any of the beliefs or anything, but tend to there's things that Jordan Peterson says about this topic that I resonate with on a gut level.

是啊，老兄，这确实很奇妙。现在真是个他妈迷人的时代，我们要在修辞与沟通的世界中航行。你觉得未来几年——我明白你没有水晶球——但就这种沟通方式的发展趋势，你有什么初步判断吗？

Yeah. It's a strange one, man. It is a fucking fascinating time to navigate the world of rhetoric and and communication. And what do you think the neck I mean, you you don't have a crystal ball, but what do you think the next few years looks like in terms of the way that this communication goes forward? Have you got any early inclinations?

这种技术媒介正在改变一切，其影响深远。我们发现任何事情都更难隐藏。从这个意义上说，我认为是好事，因为我坚信现实结构是存在的，观众不会说谎——观众反映的是真实状况，我们不该蒙蔽他们。透明度越高越好。

Well, the the ramifications of, like, this technology, this medium is changing everything. We're seeing that it's harder it's harder to hide anything. And in that sense, I think it's a good thing because I do have this sense of the fabric of reality exists and that the audience doesn't lie. That audience meaning that's reflecting what is, and we don't wanna pull the wool over their eyes. The more transparency, the better.

有种钟摆似乎在左右摇摆。我不知道会发生什么。政治方面——我从不自认是政治专家——很复杂。我觉得大学体系正陷入严重困境。

There's that pendulum that seems to swing from the left to the right. I I don't know what will happen. I don't I mean, as far as politics, I would never consider myself a political expert. It's difficult. It's it's a it's I think the universities are in real trouble.

他们确实处境艰难，这是彼得森又说对的一点。不知道他们如何翻身。这方面将会有重大变革，好莱坞这个体系也在转型。

They're in real trouble. That's another thing Peterson's right about. I don't know how they're going to come back from it. So there's going to be big change around that. I think that this agent Hollywood is transforming.

他们正在努力追赶这些技术。他们意识到，连接受众的能力，那种反映现实本质的东西，已经发生了变化。你很可能有一个代理人。如果没有，我相信有代理人正在关注你，因为他们正在设立新部门，认识到这是未来，而真正的后果是什么，我并不清楚。这种善与恶之间的冲突（不是政治，而是正确与错误行为之间的冲突）的真正后果是什么，嗯，回到对话开始时与杰伊的讨论，有些事情正在发生变化，这就是为什么艾玛·沃特森会站出来发表那些评论。

They're trying to catch up with these technologies. They're realizing that the ability to connect to that audience, that thing that's reflecting the fabric of reality, has shifted. You probably have an agent. If you don't, I'm sure there's agents looking at you because they're launching new departments recognizing that this is the future, and what the real ramifications of that are, I do not know. What the real ramifications are of this conflict between good, not politics, but right versus wrong behavior, well, going back to the beginning of the conversation, with Jay, there's something shifting, which is why Emma Watson came out and made those comments.

嗯嗯。嗯嗯。有些事情正在向好的方向转变。

Mhmm. Mhmm. Something something's shifting for the better.

沃伦·史密斯，女士们先生们。老兄，我非常感谢你，我为你将可能很可怕的事情转化为创造伟大事物的跳板而鼓掌。这真是真正的炼金术。人们应该去哪里？他们想看看你的所有东西。

Warren Smith, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, I I appreciate you very much, and I I applaud you for taking something that could have been horrific and turning it into a a springboard to to make something great. So that's that's real alchemy there. Where should people go? They wanna check out all of your stuff.

就在YouTube上。沃伦·史密斯秘密学者协会。是的。

Just YouTube. Warren Smith Secret Scholars Society. Yeah.

太棒了。

Heck yeah.

是的，老兄。

Yeah, man.

我感谢你。

I appreciate you.