#1014 - Marc Brackett博士 - 改变人生的情绪调节技巧

只有五分之一的成年人能说出他们经常感受到的超过三种情绪。你认为这是为什么？

Only one in five adults can name more than three emotions they feel regularly. Why do you think

坦白说，我认为这是因为我们缺乏情感教育。我们完全忽视了生活的这一面。

Bluntly, that I think it's because we don't have an emotion education. We just ignore that aspect of our lives.

这是什么意思？情感教育指的是什么？

What does that mean? What does an emotion education mean?

这意味着从幼儿园到高中，甚至在我们进入职场或大学后，我们都在培养情感技能，比如情感词汇。举个例子，我现在问你，愤怒和失望有什么区别？

It means that from preschool to high school, and even when we're in the workplace or in college, we are building our emotion skills, you know, vocabulary, for example. Just to give you one example, I'm gonna ask you right now, what's the difference between anger and disappointment?

哦，愤怒是炽热的，嗯，感觉像是处于进攻姿态。

Oh, Anger is fiery Mhmm. And feels like you're on the front foot.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对我来说，失望的颜色是蓝灰色，像深紫蓝灰，它有种封闭感，感觉像是处于防守姿态。就像坐在一张很矮的沙发上。我知道这个定义不太准确...

Disappointment for me is the color of and it's the color of red for me, orangey red. Disappointment is sort of a blue gray, like a dark purple blue gray, and it is it's sort of closed, it feels like I'm on the back foot. It feels like I'm sat in a very low couch. I'm aware that's not a particularly precise definition You're

你你你你绝对是个创意型的人。那些美丽的隐喻，但我真的很想知道这两者在心理学定义或区别上的差异。所以

you're you're you're you're a creative type. That's for sure. And all beautiful kind of metaphors and and but, like, I'm I really wanna know, like, the the psychological definition or difference between the two. So what do

我我那个好吧。两者在心理学上的区别或定义。从功能上讲，愤怒是有人越界了，你需要大声宣告以确保他们知道自己越过了某种界限。这有点像在某种程度上充当自己的执法者。而失望则与希望、期望以及这些期望未能实现有关。

you I'll that I'll okay. The psychological difference or definition between the two. Functionally, anger is somebody has stepped over a boundary and you need to exclaim loudly enough to ensure that they know that they have crossed some sort of threshold. It's a a kind of like being your own law enforcement in a way. Disappointment is around hopes, expectations, and those not being met.

也许

Maybe

你刚才说得太好了。太棒了。真令人失望。你知道吗，你都快成为情绪科学家了。是的。

you That got was much better. That was great. So disappointing. You know, you're on your verge of being an emotion scientist. Yes.

所以失望源于未实现的期望。愤怒源于感受到的不公。很多人看着我的工作会说，谁在乎你能区分愤怒与失望、焦虑与压力、压力与恐惧呢？但我们在研究中发现，你必须先命名它，才能驯服它。

So disappointment, unmet expectations. Anger, perceived injustice. And so I think a lot of people kind of look at my work and they're like, you know, whatever. Who cares that you know the difference between anger and disappointment or anxiety and stress or pressure and fear. But what we say in our research is that you have to name it to tame it.

你必须标记它才能调节它。通常尤其是男性，他们会以某种方式——通常是社会认可的、将所有情绪都表现为攻击性的方式——走进我们的办公室或家中。我们的观点是，除非人们真正了解自己的感受及其原因，否则不可能帮助他们管理情绪。

You've got to label it to regulate it. And oftentimes, men in particular are going to come into our offices, our homes, and act one way. They're going to behave one way, kind of a socially appropriate way of typically aggression with all emotions, whether it's disappointment, frustration, fear, or anxiety. And the argument that we make is that until people really know how they feel and why they feel the way they do, it's impossible to support them in managing it.

对。是的。这确实有道理。那么什么是情商？

Right. Yeah. That does make sense. Okay. So what is emotional intelligence?

这真的存在吗？我记得有智商、情商这些概念。情商到底是什么意思？

Like, is that a thing? I remember there was this whole world of IQ, EQ. What does emotional intelligence mean?

简单来说，情商就是明智地运用情绪来实现目标，妥善处理各种情绪，但这定义还不够具体。我研究的模型叫RULER，包含五项技能：首先是识别自己和他人的情绪，理解情绪的成因和影响；其次是准确标记情绪；再者是懂得如何在不同文化背景下因人而异地表达情绪；最后这个大R就是我新书的核心——调节情绪。你该如何处理自己和他人的感受？

So at its simplest level, emotional intelligence is using your feelings wisely to achieve your goals, using all of our emotions wisely, but that's not specific enough. And the model that I've worked on is called RULER. So there are five skills. The first is recognizing emotions in oneself and others, understanding the causes and the consequences of emotions, labeling emotions precisely, knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across cultures, and then finally the big R, which is my new book, which is regulating emotions. What do you do with those feelings, both your own and other people's?

明白了。这么说它是功能性的。可以这么理解，它会产生实际效果，而不仅仅是你天生具备的特质。

Okay. So it is functional. That'll be one way to put it. Like, has an outcome. It's not just a thing that you're imbued with.

它是通过运用情绪来达成目标。

It's using your emotions to achieve.

没错。它是目标导向的。就像你可能拥有高智商却不运用它，很多人确实如此。情商也是同样的道理。

Yes. It's goal oriented. Just like, I mean, you can have an IQ and not use it. A lot of people don't. But the same thing applies to your emotional intelligence.

这种理念期望你掌握这套技能并运用于生活，从而做出更明智的决策、建立更好的人际关系、实现人生目标。我的研究表明，人们总以为创造力和普通智力是实现目标的关键要素，但实际上在创造过程中存在诸多障碍，在追求成功的路上也有重重阻碍。

The expectation or the idea is that you have this set of skills and you apply them to your life so that you make better decisions, you make better relationships, you achieve your goals in life. Mhmm. You know, what I show in my research is that, you know, we like to think that our creativity and our general intelligence are the kind of the things that we need to achieve our goals. Mhmm. But what I've shown is that there are a lot of obstacles in the creative process, a lot of obstacles in achieving our success in life.

如果我们没有能力管理挫折感、焦虑或失望，即使最具创造力的人也无法真正取得成果。

And if we don't have the skills to manage the frustration or the anxiety or the disappointment, even the most creative among us don't really achieve the outcomes.

是的。我认为很多人会将情绪及利用情绪视为软弱的表现，而非加速成功的途径。为什么人们应该触及情绪？它们如何以这种方式成为表现增强剂？

Yeah. I think a lot of people would see emotions and the utilizing of emotions as a vector for weakness, not one for expediting success. Why why should people tap into emotions at all? How how are they a performance enhancer in that way?

好吧，我要提出一个挑衅性的观点，根据我的研究以及最近的工作，我认为情绪调节实际上应该成为成功的新定义。我们通常认为成功就是拥有豪车、大房子、辉煌事业等等。但事实上，如果你无法管理自己的情绪、稳定神经系统，或者作为领导者无法帮助他人调节情绪，公司往往无法达到预期表现，你自己的心理健康和目标达成也会受到影响。这个观点很多人都在反驳我。

Well, I'm gonna be provocative and say, based on my research and, you know, the work I've done recently, I think that emotion regulation should actually be the new definition of success. And meaning that we think of success as you got the fancy car, you got the big house, you have the big career, whatever it might be. But truthfully, if you can't manage your emotions and settle your nervous system, if you can't manage or support other people as a leader, for example, in regulating their emotions, oftentimes the company doesn't do as well as you might think it could do. And oftentimes your own mental health suffers and your goal attainment suffers. So I think that's a A lot of people are fighting me on that one.

你知道，他们会说'看看我为财富100强公司做过演讲'，'看看我的成就，马克，看看我的办公室。你觉得我真的需要情商吗？'而我首先会告诉他们：'我采访了向你汇报的五个人，他们不喜欢你，实际上很讨厌你。'

You know, they think, well, you know, well, look at my I've done talks for big fortune 100 companies and, you know, like, look at me, Mark. Look at my office. You think I really need emotional intelligence? And the first thing I say to them is like, Well, I interviewed the five people who report to you, and they don't like you. They actually hate you.

所以也许你应该培养一些情商技能，公司可能会比现在发展得更好。是的。

So maybe you should develop some emotional intelligence skills, and maybe the company could be doing even better than it is. Yeah.

你刚才说高绩效的定义是情绪调节而非情商？让我们明确术语。什么是情绪调节？在情商层次结构中，情绪调节处于

I what what is you said the, like, the definition of high performance is emotional regulation, not emotional intelligence. So let's define terms. What's emotional regulation? So in the hierarchy of emotional intelligence, emotion regulation comes at

顶端对吧？就像所有这些技能汇聚在一起，帮助你处理感受。我这样定义它——用个让我显得聪明的小公式：情绪调节（ER）是一套目标和策略。

the top. Right? It's like all these skills come together, and then it, like, helps you to deal with your feelings. And the way I define it is I have a little formula that makes me feel smart. It's ER, emotion regulation, is a set of goals and strategies.

想想看，你可以预防不想要的情绪。大多数人不会这样思考调节，他们只想'我压力太大了，必须减压'。

So think about that. You can prevent an unwanted emotion. Most people don't think about regulation that way. They think about, oh, I'm stressed out. Gotta reduce my stress.

但不行。如果你是教室里的孩子，知道周四考试会焦虑，那我们现在就该准备，这样周四就不会焦虑。如果你是运动员，即将上赛道或比赛——我还有个背景是教了25年武术。所以我总想起我的武术学生，对手一上场垫子他们就紧张。我会告诉他们：这不是调节情绪的时候。

But no. If you're a kid in this classroom and you know you're gonna be anxious on Thursday at the test, let's prepare now for the test so you're not anxious on Thursday. If you're a sports person and you're going out on the track or out to do a match, my other background is I taught martial arts for twenty five years. And so, you know, I'm thinking about all my martial arts students getting so anxious as soon as the opponent came on the mat. And I would say to them, like, that's not the time to regulate.

你必须在上垫子前就调节好情绪。要让自己准备好保持专注，避免慌乱。所以这有预防的部分，也有缓解的部分。当情绪来临时，你必须减轻这种感觉。

You gotta regulate way before you even show up to the mat. You gotta be preparing yourself to be present, to not be, you know, flustered. So there's a prevention piece to it. There's a reduction piece to it. In the moment, you gotta reduce the feeling.

比如你被触发了，情绪激动了。马克，你得深呼吸冷静下来。我认为情绪调节另一个有趣的部分是主动引发情绪。作为管理大团队的人，我常思考：哪种情绪最能服务这次会议的目标？是想让大家受鼓舞？

Like, you get triggered, you get activated. You gotta, Mark, take a deep breath, calm down. I think another interesting piece of regulation is initiating emotions. So as someone who manages a large team, I'm always thinking to myself, like, what emotion is gonna best serve the goal of this meeting? Like, do I want people to be inspired?

还是希望他们保持冷静？或是需要他们严肃对待？然后我的工作就是营造符合目标的情感氛围。我觉得人们很少考虑这点。PRIME中的M代表'维持'。

Do I want them to be calm? Do I want them to be kind of, like, serious? And then it's my job to create the emotional climate that aligns with that to achieve the outcome. I don't think people think about that very much. The M in PRIME, this is an acronym, is maintain.

就像我正度过愉快的一天，文思如泉涌地写书，突然收到那封邮件或电话——不，请别打扰。

So it's like, I'm having a good day. I'm in flow. I'm writing my book. And all of a sudden, I get that email or I get that phone call and it's like, no. Stay away.

我现在状态正好。而E代表'增强情绪'。这个定义很长，因为概念很复杂。PRIME就是目标：预防、缓解、引发、维持或增强。

I'm really in a great place right now. And then the E is kind of enhancing emotions. So it's a long definition, but it's a complicated concept. So prime is the goals. Prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain, or enhance.

然后S代表'策略'。有成千上万种策略对吧？比如走进大自然、深呼吸、转变思维、重新评估、寻求社会支持。所以情绪调节就是目标加策略。

Then the S is strategies. Thousands of strategies. Right? I mean, walking in nature, taking a deep breath, shifting your thinking, or reappraising, getting social support. And so emotion regulation is g plus s.

但还有另一个层面，所有这些都会随着你感受的情绪而变化，因为针对不同情绪需要不同策略，这关乎你的性格。我是个内向的人，不知道你怎样。你看起来比我外向些。我只是猜测而已。

But then there's another piece of it, which is that all of that varies as a function of the emotion you're feeling, because you need different strategies for different emotions, kind of your personality. I'm an introvert. I don't know about you. You seem a little bit more outgoing than I am. I'm just making that guess.

但你知道，昨天我工作了整整十二小时，到晚上九点。我去上瑜伽课放松，但瑜伽老师话太多，我不得不离开。说起来有点尴尬，我期待的是能沉浸其中的高温瑜伽课，结果却有人对着我喋喋不休讲了四十五分钟。

But, you know, at the end of the day, like, I had a I had like a twelve hour day yesterday, and it was like 9PM. I went to a yoga class to relax, but the yoga teacher was so chatty that I had to leave the class. I mean, it's embarrassing to say. I had to walk out of the yoga class because my brain needed I was looking forward to that hot yoga class where I could just disappear. And instead, I had someone, like, talking at me for, like, forty five minutes.

这对我不合适。这就是我的性格，我知道自己需要什么，这能帮我做选择。所以我改去中央公园散步，感觉好多了。关键在于情绪、个人和情境。

It's like, this is not good for me. So, you know, that's my personality. I know what I need, and that's gonna help me choose. So instead, I went for a walk around Central Park much better. So it's the emotion, the person, and the context.

比如现在，如果我在对话中感到焦虑，总不能说'嘿克里斯，我要去跑步了'对吧？那样有点怪。所以这个话题就到此为止吧。

Right now, if I'm getting anxious, for example, during our conversation, it can't be like, you know, hey, Chris, you know what? I'm going for a run. Yeah. That's a little weird. So anyway, I'll leave it there.

是啊。这是个

Yeah. It's a

值得深思的问题。

A lot to think about.

这确实是个复杂的话题。既然情感技能如你所说这么基础——甚至在功能层面都如此重要，为什么我们中很少有人学过这些呢？嗯。

It's it is a complex topic. That's true. Why do you think why do you think so few of us were ever taught emotional skills if they are as fundamental as you say, even if they're as fundamental functionally as you say? You know? Mhmm.

精英主义，平等主义，我要去争取人生所需。嗯。既然它们如此强大，为什么人们不去学习这些呢？

Meritocratic, egalitarian, I'm gonna go and get the thing in life. Mhmm. Why why are people not learning these if if they're so powerful?

是的，这很有趣。我认为这是历史原因。人们过去在心理学领域认为，情绪嘛，你知道的，它不是行为，所以不够客观。它就像在你脑子里，你无法真正研究它——但我们现在已证明这种观点是错误的。

Yeah. It's interesting. I think it's historical. I think that people kind of thought, in psychology, you know, emotions, they're you know, it's not behavior, so it's not objective. It's like in your head and you can't really study it, which we've proven is not true.

但这只是其中一大原因。我认为另一个原因是，我们常将感受情绪与情绪化混为一谈，比如歇斯底里。所以我们几乎把情绪视为有害之物，因为你知道，它们会驱使你做出糟糕决定，引发冲动和特异行为。当然，直到七八十年代的研究中，像查尔斯·达尔文这样的心理学家才站出来说：不，不是这样的。

But that's one big piece of it. I think the other piece of it is that we tend to create feeling emotions with being emotional, like hysterical. And so we almost treat emotions as bad things to have because, you know, they drive you to make bad decisions and they're making impulsive and idiosyncratic impulses. Of course, it wasn't till, like, the seventies and eighties in research, people like Charles Darwin and other psychologists would say, no. No.

不，不。实际上，情绪保障了你的生存。想想看——恐惧就是一种适应性体验。

No. No. Actually, your emotions ensure your survival. Think about that. Like, fear is an adaptive experience.

它在警示你：有威胁存在。要远离，保护自己。但有趣的是，人们花了这么久才开始重视情商。

It's saying, there's a threat. You know, stay away. Protect yourself. But it's interesting how it's taken so long for people to kind of value emotional intelligence.

是啊。我想可能是因为它缺乏好的包装吧，情绪、情商这些概念。

Yeah. Well, I suppose it doesn't have great branding, I don't think. Like emotions, emotional intelligence.

嗯，我认为

Mhmm. I think

我不认为当你和别人谈论这件事时，他们会意识到进入自己身体、理解自身感受的重要性。嗯。我觉得大多数人，尤其是现代社会的男性，对情绪巅峰能力的理解更接近于压抑情绪，或者，嗯，可能是忽视。

I don't think when you when you talk to people about it, they're thinking about the importance of being able to step into their body, work out what they're feeling. Mhmm. I think what most people, especially men in the modern world, would think about peak emotional capacity would be something much closer to suppression that that or or or Yeah. Ignorance maybe.

确实如此。我做很多企业演讲，最近给一群律师做讲座时问他们：'好，请定义情绪调节。它是什么？'

Well, it's true. When I interview and I do I do a lot of talks for businesses, and I was doing one for a bunch of lawyers recently. And I said, alright. Define emotion regulation. What is it?

他们第一反应都是'控制情绪'，然后列举否认、忽视、压抑这些方式。我说：'不对不对，重新分组讨论定义。'

And the first thing they say is, like, controlling your emotions, you know, and then they denying it, you know, ignoring it, suppressing it, and like, no. No. No. Go back to your groups. Redefine it.

但这就是普遍思维模式——认为不该感受情绪。可这从生物学上根本不可能实现。而且你压抑得越多，它越会通过胃病、身体健康问题和心理问题表现出来。压抑从来不是解决之道，关键是要智慧地运用情绪。你说到点子上了，特别是男性会想：'我真能告诉妻子、伴侣或同事我很焦虑吗？'

But that's that is the mindset. The mindset is not to feel, which by the way is biologically impossible, which by the way, the more you suppress, the more it's gonna show up in stomach problems, in physical health problems, and mental health problems. Suppression is never the answer. Remember, it's about using our emotions wisely. And your point is a good one because with men in particular, it's like, can I really tell my wife, my partner, my colleague that I'm anxious?

我绝不可能告诉别人我焦虑，他们会觉得我软弱。事实上，我父亲有个相当艰难的童年，不幸遭遇过很多虐待和欺凌。如今56岁的我已经接纳了这样的自己。

There's no way I'm gonna tell anybody I'm anxious because they're gonna think I'm weak. As a matter of fact, a father had a pretty rough childhood. I had abuse, unfortunately, a lot of bullying, and I'm 56 at this point. This is who I am. I'm good with who I am.

现在分享这些经历让我感到安全舒适，但这花了我很长时间。有次演讲时，一个男人对我说：'马克，我永远不可能像你这样在众人面前暴露脆弱——你居然能坦然谈论被欺凌虐待的经历，还有疫情期间的焦虑。'我反问他：'那你当时有这些感受吗？'

And I'm feeling pretty safe and comfortable sharing my own story. But it took me a while. And these guys, oftentimes at my talks, one guy said to me, Mark, there's no way I would ever be as vulnerable as you are, like, in front of other people. Like, you're cheering about your bullying and your abuse and your, like, your anxiety about the pandemic. And I'm like, well, did you feel those?

'疫情期间你焦虑过吗？'他说当然有。我问：'那你怎么处理的？'他回答：'我没跟人说，就喝酒。'

Do you know did you have any anxiety during the pandemic? He's like, yeah, of course I did. And I said, well, what'd you do about it? He's like, you know, I didn't talk about it. I drank alcohol.

我说，或许有更好的方法。实际上我对性别因素特别感兴趣，因为男性尤其对自己的感受有感受——他们为感到焦虑而羞愧。你怎么看？

And I said, well, maybe there's a better way. And I really wanna I'm very interested actually in the gender piece of this because there is this like we have men in particular have feelings about their feelings. It's like they feel they feel shame that they're anxious. What do you think about that?

哦，这个话题我能聊一辈子。我称之为二阶情绪（你们可能有更正式的术语），比如对我的焦虑引发的羞愧产生怨恨，又对这种怨恨感到苦涩，这种对思考的思考无限递归，以及我对自己讲述的关于感受的故事再加工...这在男性世界很常见。我认为男性很难找到可以接纳复杂情绪的空间——除了少数几种，也许怨恨被允许，愤怒被允许，但悲伤会让你挣扎。焦虑也会让你挣扎。

Oh, I I I could talk about this for the rest of my life. Think what I've called second order emotions, what you've probably got a much more official name for, feeling bitterness at my resentment about my shame, about my anxiety, this, like, infinite regress of thinking about thinking and my story that I tell myself about the story that I told myself about the thing that I felt Yeah. Appears to happen a lot in the world of men. And I think the guys I I I think guys struggle to find a place where their emotions that aren't a very small number, maybe resentment is allowed, maybe anger is allowed, Sadness would you would struggle with. Anxiety, you would struggle with.

嗯。哀伤会让你挣扎。恐惧也会是个大难题。因为这些情绪都直指男性自以为需要展现的情感掌控力——那种征服、进取的硬汉形象，某种程度上他们也确实需要这样。嗯。

Mhmm. Grief, you would struggle with. Fear would be a real big difficult one as well. Because all of those kind of strike at the heart of the emotional mastery competence, conquer, go after it and get it type thing that I think guys feel like they need to lean into, and in many ways do need to. Mhmm.

而尝试融合这两个世界...我想我算是个不错的高敏感型男性榜样

And, yeah, trying to blend those two worlds is I think I'm probably not a bad role model for the sort of a highly sensitive guy

嗯。

Mhmm.

至少在私人生活中我完全接纳这点。现在可以说出来了——毕竟回来才三四天。你知道乔·哈德森吗？熟悉他吗？

At least in my personal life, and I'm completely bought in. I'm so you know, I I I can say now because it's been, what, three days, four days since I got back. I did do you know who Joe Hudson is? Are familiar with Joe?

唔唔。

Mm-mm.

成就的艺术。所以

Art of accomplishment. So

他是

he is

他是OpenAI的文化负责人之类的。

he is the, like, head of culture at OpenAI.

哦，好的。我现在明白你在说什么了。是的。

Oh, okay. I do know what you're talking about now. Yep.

是的。我上周参加了'开拓者'项目，从早上9点到晚上9点，连续七天每天都要做情绪工作。那是我做过的最脆弱、最困难、最紧张的事情，而且差距相当大。我认为这真的重塑了我的视角。虽然我已经半只脚踏进去了，但这让我看得更透彻了。

Yeah. I did Groundbreakers last week, which is 9AM till 9PM for seven days ish of emotional work every single day. And that was the most vulnerable, difficult, intense thing that I've ever done by by, like, quite some margin. And it really reframed, I think, my perspective. I I already was halfway there, but this really reframed it even more.

我对真正力量是什么样子的看法，某种程度上...是的。我觉得'力量'可能是个不错的描述词。

My kind of viewpoint on what real strength looks like, sort of what what yeah. I think strength is maybe a good a good descriptor for it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

否认或压抑你的情绪，实际上仍是在让它们对你拥有极大的控制力。

Denying or suppressing your emotions is still giving them a lot of power over you.

百分之百同意。

100%.

你是在说这件事影响如此之大，超出了我的掌控范围，以至于我完全受其摆布，甚至无法直面它。我想类似的论点也可以用在有物质滥用问题的人身上，比如某人突然戒断。欢呼吧，恭喜你。就像你已经超越了对酒精、尼古丁或任何其他物质的依赖。

You are saying this thing is so impactful and outside the bounds of my control, and I am at the mercy of it so much so that I can't engage with it. I think you could maybe make a a similar sort of argument about somebody that has a substance abuse problem, and this person goes cold turkey. Hooray. Congratulations. Like, you've you've transcended your need for alcohol or nicotine or whatever it might be.

但真正的转化应该是按照你自己的条件重新引入这种物质，并且只需要一次就能满足。这意味着你能够再次使用它。这说得通吗？我听起来是不是疯了？

But truly, like, alchemizing that would be reintroducing the substance on your terms and only ever needing one of them. It would be being being able to use it again. Does that make sense? Do I sound insane?

不，这很棒。我是说完全有道理。我觉得你触及了很多方面。第一点就像是，我宁愿在内心承受痛苦，也不愿让别人知道我的感受，从而获得可能让我生活更好的支持。

No. It's great. I mean, it totally makes sense. Think you're getting at a lot of things. Number one is kind of this, like, I'd rather, like, endure the suffering internally than let anybody know how I'm feeling to get the support I might need to have a better life.

是的。你知道，这就是为什么那么多人离婚的原因。对吧？这就是为什么人们想加薪时不敢和老板谈。这也是友谊破裂的原因——因为人们会觉得‘我有这种感受，不管是什么，但想到要告诉你我的感受并请求你的支持，或请你稍作改变，这让我更痛苦’。

Yes. And I've, you know, it's why so many people get divorced. Right? It's It's why, you know, people don't talk to their bosses when they want to get a raise. It's why friendships, you know, because it's like, I'm having this feeling, whatever it might be, and it's more painful for me to think about how I can tell you how I'm feeling and ask for your support or ask you to maybe change a little bit.

而我只是觉得这简直难以想象地困难。所以我干脆不去做。但当然，结果总是更糟，因为如果你更愿意谈论这些，本可以拥有更好的关系和更好的一切。

And I just That is like beyond my imagination difficult. And so I'm just not gonna do it. But of course, the outcome is always worse because you would have a better relationship and better everything if you were more comfortable talking about it.

另一则消息是，Shopify为美国10%的电商企业提供支持。他们是Gymshark、Skims、Allo和Nutanix背后的驱动力，这也是我选择与他们合作的原因。因为在将浏览者转化为买家方面，他们是行业翘楚。与其他领先电商平台相比，他们的结账系统平均效率高出36%。而通过Shop Pay，您甚至能将转化率提升高达50%。

In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all ecommerce companies in The United States. They are the driving force behind Gymshark, Skims, Allo, and Nutanix, which is why I partnered with them. Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions by up to 50%.

他们提供获奖级别的支持服务，全程为您保驾护航。听着，创业不是为了学习编程、建站或处理后端库存管理。Shopify会搞定这一切，让您专注于核心工作——设计和销售出色的产品。立即升级您的业务，使用与Nutanic相同的Shopify结账系统。

They've got award winning support there to help you every step of the way. Look. You are not going into business to learn how to code or build a website or do back end inventory management. Shopify takes care of all of that and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that I use with Nutonic on Shopify.

现在，您可以通过下方描述中的链接或访问shopify.com/modernwisdom（全小写）注册享受每月1美元的试用期。立即访问shopify.com/modernwisdom升级您的销售系统。关于压抑情绪这个问题，为什么情感压抑仍被视为一种优势？这究竟是...

Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to upgrade your selling today. Yeah. So I think when it comes to the suppression thing, why why is emotional suppression still seen as a strength? What is it what what is it that's Well,

我不这么认为。准确地说，我不会认为它被视作优势。我觉得这只是更简单的方式，所以人们选择这样做。

I don't think it is. Right. I wouldn't say it's I wouldn't say it's seen as a strength. I would say it's easier. And so it's you know, people choose that as an option.

就像我的研究中发现的那样，人们最常用的应对情绪策略就是逃避——不去处理感受。比如刻意回避艰难对话，晚上回家不和伴侣交流，甚至不敢告诉孩子。父母们居然害怕和自己的孩子谈论感受。

It's like in my research, what I find in the top strategies that people are kind of used to not deal with their feelings, avoidance, big one. It's like, I'm just not gonna have the difficult conversation. I'm just not gonna go home tonight and talk to my significant other. I'm not gonna tell my kids. I mean, parents are even afraid to talk to their own kids about feelings.

这很荒谬。因为他们害怕无法面对孩子可能说出的话。关键就在于，人们宁愿不触碰情绪，因为...哦抱歉，我想说的是逃避、否认、暴食、酗酒，就像你说的压抑情绪。这些都会成为我们应对感受时自动启动的糟糕习惯。

It's crazy. Because they're afraid they can't deal with what they're gonna hear from their own kids. So, you know, the point is that I'd rather kind of not engage with the emotion because the pain of what what oh, I'm sorry. What I was getting at is avoidance, denial, overeating, drinking too much alcohol, like you said, suppression. You know, all of these become what I would call our automatic go to terrible habits for dealing with our feelings.

这些方式都不会带来好结果。它们通常只会导致更多羞耻、悔恨和自我厌恶，恶果不胜枚举。它们无助于提升幸福感、建立良好关系或实现人生真正目标。而我提倡的新策略——包括有时会遭人白眼的正念练习——能帮助我们调节交感神经与副交感神经系统，需要先让神经系统平静下来，才能运用认知策略有效处理情绪。

None of them lead to good outcomes for us. They usually lead to more shame, more regret, more self hatred, the list goes on. And they never help us with our well-being or having good relationships or achieving the real goals we have in our lives. But the the new strategies, the helpful strategies, kind of what I write about, even the even doing a mindfulness exercise, which people sometimes roll their eyes at, we know that our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, right, need support. We need to deactivate that nervous system in order to be present, in order to have the access to cognitive strategies to deal with our feelings.

但是，哦，那都是废话。呼吸，你知道的，自从你出生以来我就一直在呼吸，这可能是件好事。那些认知策略。我是说，想想现在世界上有多少心理操控。我是说，咱们现实点。

But, oh, that's fluff. Breathing, you know, I've been breathing since you came out of the womb, so it's probably a good thing. The cognitive strategies. I mean, think about how much gaslighting there is in our world right now. I mean, let's be real.

人们无休止地被心理操控——你太胖、你太瘦、你太高、你太矮、你不够壮、你不够娇小、你太男性化、你太女性化、你太黑、你太白。我是说，永无止境。

People are endlessly gaslit in terms of, you know, you're you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too tall, you're too short, you're not big enough, you're not small enough, You're too masculine. You're too feminine. You're too dark. You're too light. I mean, it's endless.

我们中有多少人从小就被教导如何过滤这些评判，然后说‘嘿，等等，你没权利定义我的现实。我其实喜欢我自己，离我远点’？我们中有多少人学会过滤别人对我们的评价，从而对自己有更积极的看法，而不是让别人为我们定义现实？

And how many of us are taught when we're kids how to sift through that kind of judgment and say, hey, wait a minute. You don't have the right to define my reality. I actually like myself and like, stay away. You know? How do we how many of us learn learn how to sift through what people are saying about us to then have a more positive view of ourselves as opposed to allowing other people to define our realities for us.

如果不表达情绪会怎样？你之前提到过。假设我不愿过多指责压抑，好像这是人们主动选择的行为。某种程度上他们确实选择了，但不同于你选择把某人推向车流。更像是‘我害怕，哇，这太难了’。

What happens if you don't express an emotion? You mentioned it earlier on. Let's say I hesitate to point the finger too much at repression as if it's something that people chose to do. And in some ways, they they did, but it's not in the same way as you chose to push that person into open traffic. It's more like, I'm scared, and wow, this is a lot.

外面的世界怎么办？我给自己讲的故事怎么办？哦，处理这些真让人不舒服。应对机制，你知道的，很多事情正在发生，感觉不像是主动为之，只是为了拼命活下去。但如果有人持续这样，不表达情绪会怎样？

And what about the world outside, and what about the story I tell myself, and, oh, that's uncomfortable to deal with. Coping mechanisms, you know, it's a lot of stuff that's going on that doesn't feel quite like commission or volition. It's just a desperate desire to try and survive. Mhmm. But if somebody continues to do that, what happens if you don't express emotions?

嗯，这就像不断累积的债务，总会在某处爆发。就像我之前说的，会通过那些适应不良的策略爆发，表现为回避重要他人，表现为酗酒，表现为肠胃问题。

Well, it'd be it's like a debt that keeps on getting bigger, and it comes out somewhere. It comes out, as I said earlier, in those maladaptive strategies. It comes out in terms of avoiding your significant others. It comes out in drinking too much alcohol. It comes out in having, you know, gastrointestinal issues.

它会以焦虑症和抑郁症的形式爆发。这个清单可以一直列下去，因为我们天生就要感受情绪，必须通过某种方式表达出来。如果不表达，它们就会自己找出口。遗憾的是，大多数人缺乏情绪教育，所以更容易选择逃避。比如我父母就不是情商方面的榜样——不知道你怎么样。

It comes out with anxiety disorders and depressive disorders. I mean, the list goes on because we're born to feel, and, you know, we have to get those feelings expressed somehow or another. And if we don't do it, they're gonna find their way out. And unfortunately, for most people, because they haven't had the emotion education, it's easier. You know, we learn, like, I don't know about you, but my parents were not, like, the role models for emotional intelligence.

你知道吗？我父亲是布朗克斯区的一个硬汉，他会说些像‘儿子，你得够硬气’这样的话。而我心想：老爸，看看我。我离硬汉形象差了十万八千里。虽然我有五段黑带，但我真不是那种人。

You know? So, you know, my father was a tough guy from the Bronx, and he would say things like, son, you got tough enough. I'm like, dad, look at me. You know, I'm about as far from a tough guy as you can get. I have a fifth degree black belt, but I'm not a tough guy.

他还常说‘我以前经常揍你这种小孩’。好吧，真棒。这是育儿课上教的吗？

And, you know, he would say things like, I used to beat kids up like you. Okay. Great. You know? They taught you that in parenting class.

对吧，老爸？而我母亲则充满焦虑，她总说‘我受不了了，我要精神崩溃了’。于是，五岁、十岁的我就在这种环境中长大。

Right, dad? And my mom, on the other hand, was with a lot of anxiety. And she would say things like, I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown. So here I am, this five year old kid, 10 year old kid growing up in this environment.

我学到了什么？焦虑是软弱的表现。人们焦虑时就把自己锁在卧室里，在焦虑中迷失自我。我学会了时刻戒备，这种状态一直持续到我获得心理学博士学位。

What am I learning? I'm learning anxiety is weak. People lock themselves in their bedrooms when they're anxious and you just sort of lose yourself in your anxiety. And I learned getting ready at everything. And that's pretty much what I was until I got my PhD in psychology.

那时的我，就是个充满焦虑和愤怒、完全不知道该如何处理情绪的这么个人。总之...

I was, you know, this anxious, angry person who just just like didn't know what the hell to do with his feelings. So anyway.

假设有听众正戴着AirPods听这段话，并产生共鸣——‘对啊，我就是那个焦虑愤怒、不知如何应对情绪的人’。他们该遵循怎样的框架，才能开始更健康地整合这些情绪？

Let's say that somebody is somebody resonates with that, oh, anxious, angry person who doesn't really know what to do with his feelings, like, I'm the one listening listening listening here with the AirPods in. What is a good framework for them to follow to begin including integrating those emotions more healthily?

好问题。这正是我多年前写《感受的许可》这本书的初衷。我的核心观点是：我们必须给予自己和他人感受的许可。很自豪这本书已被译成30种语言。第一步就是要给自己这种许可。

Great question. So this is, you know, what happened is I wrote this book many years ago, it's called Permission to Feel, And it was my argument that we have to give ourselves and everyone permission to feel. And I'm proud that's been 30 languages now. A lot of people understand that. Have the first step is we gotta give ourselves that permission.

焦虑是可以的，愤怒也是可以的。这些情绪本身并没有错。愤怒是真实的，焦虑也是真实的。

It's like, it's okay to be anxious. It's okay to be angry. There's nothing bad about it. Anger is real. Anxiety is real.

不要评判它，允许它的存在。如果你长时间感到这种情绪且过于强烈，就需要采取行动。然后疫情爆发了，我和岳母被困在家里。她是在2020年3月1日左右从巴拿马来拜访我们两周的。

Like, don't judge it. Just allow it to be. If you're feeling it for too long and it's too intense, you gotta do something about it. And then the pandemic hit, and I got trapped in my house with my mother-in-law. So she came to visit from the country of Panama for two weeks around 03/01/2020.

我们当时完全没想到会有疫情。两周后，她与我们同住了七个月，我简直要崩溃了。对我来说，早晨是宝贵的时光。我喜欢喝杯好咖啡，进行存在主义式的思考，反思人生意义。

And little did we know that there would be a pandemic. Two weeks later, that she would stay with us for seven months, and I'm like losing it. You know, for me, the morning is like my kind of precious time. I like to have my really good cup of coffee. I like to like have my existential crisis, like think about my purpose in life.

我喜欢独自做这些事，而不是被岳母盯着看。情况变得很糟糕。我们在家里爆发了冲突，她看着我说：'你真的是情商中心的主任吗？'我回答说：'今晚不是。'

And I like to do that alone, not with my mother-in-law like staring at me. So it got really rough. Anyway, we had this kind of meltdown in the house, and she looked at me and she's like, are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence? And I was like, not tonight. I'm telling you.

整个局面彻底爆发了。我分享这个故事是因为，作为公认的世界级情商与情绪调节专家，我当时却跌到了谷底，处于绝望和失控状态。但那天晚上入睡前，我对自己说：'马克，你确实是情商中心的主任，这是你毕生的事业。'

And so it's just like the whole thing blew up. And I share that with you because here I was, like, supposedly, like, one of the world's experts in emotional intelligence and emotion regulation. And I'm, like, you know, rock bottom, like, desperate, dysregulated. But then I, you know, when I went to bed that night, I thought to myself, you know, Mark, you actually are the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Like, this is your whole career.

你写了200篇论文和书籍等等。你必须以身作则，践行自己宣扬的理念。那一刻，我决定写一本关于情绪调节的书。就像我正走下楼梯时突然顿悟。

You've written 200 papers and books and all this stuff. Like, You got to show up. You got to practice what you preach. In that moment, I decided to write a book on emotion regulation. It was like I was walking down the stairs.

我想：'没人真正懂得这些。如果连我都不懂，那就没人懂了。'所以我写的这本新书《应对感受》就是路线图。我希望它非常实用——第一步就是你必须转变信念体系。

I'm like, Nobody knows anything about this stuff. If I don't know it, then nobody knows it. And so this new book that I wrote called Dealing with Feeling is really the map. And I just I wanted it to be super practical. Like, step one is you gotta shift your belief systems.

情绪本身没有好坏之分。绝对没有。情绪就像潮汐，来去无常。有时令人不快。

There's no such thing as a bad emotion. Period. There is no such thing as a bad Emotions are like the tide. They come and go. Sometimes they're unpleasant.

有时则令人愉悦。其次，你需要建立情绪词汇库。你必须了解这些词汇。比如，我要再次强调愤怒和失望，我们之前已经花了一些时间讨论过。

Sometimes they're pleasant. The second is you gotta build the vocabulary. You got to know the words. Like, going to push you again. Anger and disappointment, we spent some time on that one a little earlier.

让我们谈谈人人都说自己正在经历的情绪——焦虑。如今人人都焦虑，不过我并不相信这种说法。我认为人们声称自己焦虑，但实际上并非如此。那么焦虑、压力与紧迫感之间有何区别？你正在接受我设计的情商小测试。

Let's go to the one that everybody says they're feeling, which is anxiety. Everybody's anxious these days, which I don't believe, by the way. I think people say they're anxious, but they're not actually anxious. So anxiety versus stress versus pressure. You're taking my little test of emotional intelligence.

哦，你是想让我区分焦虑、压力和紧迫感的不同？

Oh, you want me to define the difference between anxiety, stress, and pressure?

是的，正是如此。

Yeah. I do.

好的。焦虑是对未来的不确定性。

Okay. Anxiety, uncertainty about the future.

说得好。

You're good.

压力，源于我们内在能力水平与社会或世界对我们施加的外部要求之间的差距，以及我们能否应对这种不确定性的不确定性。我还感受到其中涉及复杂性。压力与当前发生的诸多复杂性、速度及复杂状况有关。

Stress, a concern between our inner level of capability and the outer demands that the society is placing on or that the world is placing on us, an uncertainty the an uncertainty that we can deal. I also get the sense that complexity is in there. Stress has to do with lots of complexity that's going on, velocity, complexity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

焦虑来袭。另一个是什么来着？

Anxiety strike. What was the other one?

压力。

Pressure.

压力。哦。义务。感觉还有一种责任感。

Pressure. Oh. Obligation. Feels like feels like a sense of obligation as well.

你挺厉害的。我觉得你像是在用聊天机器人什么的。

You're pretty good. I think you're using, like, chatty PT or something.

不。你就是我的答案。

No. You're my answer.

我当时就想，没错。这种焦虑源于对未来的不确定性。

I was like, yeah. The so anxiety is about uncertainty around the future.

对，我们继续。满分10分。嗯哼。

Yes. Let's go. 10 out of 10. Mhmm.

压力是需求过多而资源不足。

Stress is having too many demands and not enough resources.

是的。我要再给自己打满分10分。没错。

Yes. Yeah. I'm gonna give myself 10 out of 10 again. Yep.

而压力则意味着某些重要事物取决于你的行动或行为。

And pressure is something at stake is dependent upon your action or behavior.

好吧。刚刚那个有点跑题了。不错。

Okay. Yeah. That was a little bit off on that one. Cool.

没关系，这样也行。但为什么我要让你知道呢？你看，你可是个专家，明白吗？

It's alright. That'll do. But why why would I want you to know? Like, here you are, this, you know, guru. You know?

为什么我要让你知道焦虑、压力和紧迫感之间的区别？我为什么要关心这个？

Why do I want you Yeah. Why would I want you to know the difference between anxiety, stress, and pressure? Why do I why why why would I care?

因为我们总是默认用最常见的情绪来描述。我们经常把不同的事情打包成一个词。这样一来，很多不同的事情听起来就像同一件事。所以很多情况听起来像焦虑，实际上可能是压力或紧迫感。

Because we default to the most common emotion. We we often bundle together different things into a single word. And by doing that, lots of things sound like one thing. So lots of things sound like anxiety when they might actually be stress or pressure.

没错。想想看，当我为某事焦虑时，我总会告诉自己：马克，你现在对这事毫无掌控力。就算你想到明天晚上也没用，因为你无能为力。你得换个角度看问题。

Exactly. And what you would do so think about it. I remember when I'm anxious about something, I tend to say, Mark, like, you got no control over that right now. Like, you can think about that till tomorrow night, and it's not gonna change because you have no power over that. You gotta look at it from a different perspective.

重新思考——这是我应对焦虑的方法。对于压力，我要么寻求帮助，要么减少自己的负担。我不知道还能做什么。深呼吸解决不了问题，我手头的事情还是太多，时间根本不够用。

Rethink it. That's what I do for anxiety. For stress, it's either I get help or I take stuff off my plate. I don't know what else to do. There's nothing can take all the breaths in the world, but I'm still gonna have too much stuff on my plate and not enough time to get it done.

至于紧迫感，我就得找上司沟通：这个截止日期真要命。有意思的是，我经常和大学生打交道，因为我是大学教授。昨天我给1500名高中生做了演讲，这有点挑战性。调研时他们都说自己压力很大，每个人都是。

And for pressure, it's like I either gotta talk to my boss and say, hey, this deadline is killing me. Interesting enough, I do a lot of work with college students because that's where I'm a professor. Yesterday, I gave a speech to 1,500 high schoolers, which was a little bit challenging. And I had done some research with them, and they all said they're stressed out. Everyone.

我压力好大，压力好大。但我的研究显示，他们最主要的情绪是什么？你猜是紧迫感吗？

And I'm stressed. I'm stressed. I'm stressed. But what my research showed was the number one emotion was what do you think? Pressure?

是嫉妒。好吧，这三个都不是。他们以为自己有压力，但实际感受是觉得别人都比自己好看，机会都比自己多。

Envy. Oh, okay. None of the three. They're thinking they're stressed or they're saying that they're stressed, but what they're feeling is that everyone's better looking than they are. Everyone has better opportunities than they have.

每个人学习时间更少却成绩更好。每个人的父母都比自己的父母人脉更广。这就像一场无止境的社会攀比。

Everybody studies for less time and gets better grades. Everybody's parents have more connections than their parents have. They're just like it's like this endless social comparison.

然后

And

但他们把这称为压力。那么，你知道该怎么应对吗？不是深呼吸，不是冥想。你得明白吧？

so but they're calling that stress. And so, you know, what's the what do you do with that? You don't take deep breaths. You don't do meditation. You gotta you know?

我告诉他们，你们必须从嫉妒转向感恩。看看你们自己，在一所很棒的高中就读，表现相当出色。如果沉溺于嫉妒，只会被它束缚。

And I tell them, like, you got to switch from envy to gratitude. Look at all of you. You're in a great high school. You're doing pretty darn good. And you could just bask in that envy you'll be paralyzed by it.

或者你可以转变思维。因为除非用新的视角看待事物，否则我不知道还有什么方法能摆脱嫉妒的漩涡。

Or you can, you know, shift your thinking. Because I don't know other any other way to get out of the envy spiral until you kind of look at things from a new lens.

这很有趣。请详细说说你如何转化嫉妒的过程。当一个人看到别人时，比较心理在他们脑海中作祟，可能表现为些许怨恨、苦涩，甚至恐惧。

That's interesting. So take take me through take me through your process of alchemizing envy. Somebody looks at somebody else. The comparison game is going on in their head. Maybe it comes up as a bit of resentment, maybe a little bit of bitterness, maybe a little bit of fear as well.

嗯。但如果他们审视内心并完全诚实地面对，可能会说'我嫉妒那个人'。有什么方法能让他们更有效地整合这种情绪呢？

Mhmm. But, you know, if they investigate themselves and they're truly, truly honest, they say something like, I envy that person. What is a way that they can integrate that emotion more effectively?

是的。我认为现实是，如果你感到嫉妒，那就是嫉妒。明白吗？问题在于背后的原因——它是导向钦佩还是怨恨？

Yeah. I think the reality is if you're feeling envy, you're feeling envy. You know? I think that the question is, is the why behind it? Is it going towards admiration or is it going towards resentment?

我羡慕很多人。看到别人演讲时，我会想，天啊，他们的节奏感真好。那种幽默太棒了。他们的姿态也很出色。但我并不希望他们失去这些才能。

I envy a lot of people. I look at people giving speech, I'm like, God, their timing is great. That humor is amazing. Their posture is great, you know? But I don't wish they weren't skilled.

我想要追求进步，所以我把这当作学习机会。我会想，好吧，哇。如果我把这些融入我的演讲，效果会更好。这是一种思维重构。你明白这种重构吗？

I want to aspire, and so I use it as learning opportunity. I'm like, okay, wow. If I incorporate that into my speech, it's gonna get even better. So it's a reframe. You see that's a reframe?

我没有心怀怨恨，而是在想，哦，我其实可以向那个人学习，并把学到的东西用在我的事情上。这是一种方法，我认为非常重要。感恩则是另一个层面——要知道我在耶鲁教书。说真的，那可是相当好的大学。

Instead of being bitter and resentful, I'm thinking, oh, I can actually learn from that person and apply that to what I do. That's one way to do it, which I think is really important. The gratitude piece is another whole thing, which is, you know, I teach at Yale. I mean, let's be real. It's a pretty good university.

如果你能进耶鲁，那你肯定非常聪明。所以当学生们开始嫉妒其他优秀毕业生时，我会说：我们能暂停一下看看周围吗？你们都是赢家。真的。让我们花点时间想想，和很多人相比我们处在什么位置。

And if you got into Yale, you gotta be pretty darn smart. And so, when students are starting to get envious of the other valedictorians, I'm like, Can we take a break here and just look around? You're all winners. Exactly. Let's take a moment and reflect on where we're at compared to many other people.

也许你应该每天醒来就说说——想想三件让你感恩能在这里的事。但他们没被教导这样做。这就是问题所在。他们习惯性的自动反应是'他们更聪明、更优秀'，而不是'哇，看看我'。

Maybe you should just like wake up and say things, you know, think about three things that you're grateful for for being here. And they're not taught to do that. You know, this is the problem. It's not an their automatic habitual response is like, they're smarter, they're better, Not, oh, wow. Look at me.

实际上我的人生已经挺成功了。或者'哇，我该感恩父母拼命工作让我进入这所大学并支持我'，诸如此类。

I've actually done pretty well in my life. Or, wow. I should be grateful that my parents worked their asses off to get me into this university and supported me or whatever it might be.

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Manscaped just dropped a limited edition forged gold version of their Lawnmower five point o Ultra. It's easily the sharpest looking trimmer they've ever made. Just imagine this bad boy was, touched by a leprechaun turned gold. But it's not just about lux. The five point o Ultra is built to fix the usual grooming problems.

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No tugging, no guessing, no dead battery halfway through. Instead, you get two interchangeable blades, one for trimming and one for a skin close finish. Plus, it's waterproof. It's got dual LED spotlights, so you can trim in the shower and in the dark at the same time if you're feeling adventurous, and it's got a sixty minute battery with USB C and wireless charging. Bottom line, it works better, it looks better, and it won't be around forever.

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再次声明，我最近的认知偏差简直强得离谱，因为我刚参加完这个...嗯...专门探讨情绪的大型静修活动。有几点要分享：当需要辨别不同情绪时，我们体内这个...

Again, my recency bias is, like, fucking weapons grade at the moment, right, because I've just come back from this this big Yeah. Retreat, which is exclusively about emotions. Couple of things to tell you. Mhmm. When it comes to discerning between different emotions, what is this thing that is inside

到底是什么？

of me?

我真的很困惑。我意识到自己很难区分类似沮丧和焦躁这样的...

I really struggled. I I realized that I really struggled to distinguish between something like frustration or agitation

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有愤怒。嗯。很多时候我感到困惑。我其实是在生气，却把它体验为沮丧或焦躁。我不允许自己感受愤怒，因为我认为愤怒是不安全的，无法顺利释放。

And anger. Mhmm. And that I was confusing a lot of the time. I was angry, but I was feeling it as frustration or agitation. And I wasn't allowing myself because I didn't think that anger was was safe to move through.

所以我完全同意，我们需要像优秀的品酒师一样，能够辨别构成我们内在情绪的不同成分，这很重要。因为确实如此。如果不这样做，你就不知道如何处理。你还会给自己贴上标签，比如‘哦，又是我的焦虑’，而实际上可能根本不是。

So I completely agree with it is important for us to be able to, like a nice sommelier, detect the different notes that are constituting whatever the emotions are that are inside of us because Exactly. Don't know how to deal with it. If you don't do that, you also end up sort of calling yourself. You you self label this thing as, oh, there's my anxiety again. And you go, well, maybe it's not.

也许你把四种不同的事情都模式化地匹配为焦虑，而实际上并非如此。不过这一周发生的另一件事是，我做了很多关于真正进入身体、允许自己感受这些情绪的工作。我意识到的一个问题是，过去十八个月里我一直有点沉迷于情绪。我真的很想不再‘情感断头’，就像我常说的那样——仿佛情绪只存在于脖子以上。

Maybe you're pattern matching four different things as anxiety when it's not. One of the other things that happened throughout the week, though, was a lot of work about actually getting into the body and allowing yourself to feel these emotions. And one of the problems that I realized, I've I've been kind of obsessed with emotions over the last eighteen months. I really wanted to be less emotionally decapitated, as I was referring to it. Like, emotions existed above the neck.

深入下去，问问自己：这意味着什么？这种感觉是怎样的？我能让它流经我吗？我能在这方面拥有更多情感流动性吗？就像，它能来也能走吗？

And getting down and being like, okay, what does this mean? How does this feel? Can I let it move through me? Can I have more emotional fluidity in that sense? Like, can it come and it goes?

它能来也能走吗？当然。你怎么看待试图通过概念和语言来教人们这些东西的局限性？这只会让过度思考者有更多东西要思考。你明白我的意思吗？就像...我确实明白。

Can it come and it goes? Sure. How do you think about the limitations of trying to teach people this stuff through concepts and words that result in the, like, overthinker, just having more to think about. You understand what I mean? Like, it's I do.

这种策略至少对我来说，在花更多时间‘降到脖子以下’之前，只会产生更多格言或咒语。你怎么看待将具身化与认知结合起来？

This sort of tactic, at least for me, until I, spent more time getting below the neck, results in just more aphorisms or mantras or, you know, how do you think about combining embodiment with with cognition?

嗯，我们的情绪就是这两者的产物。所以你需要兼顾。你需要觉察身体里发生的变化——无论是体内的燥热，还是身体的兴奋或激活。但仅关注身体的危险在于它很容易误导人。比如多年来，我这个工作狂经常深夜11点坐着，然后说‘我焦虑了’。

Well, our emotions are a product of that. So you need both. You need to be aware of what's happening in your body in terms of whether it's heat in your body, whether it's the arousal or activation in your body. The problem with that alone is that it's very misleading. So, for example, for years, I would like sit, I'm a workaholic, and I'd be like 11:00 at night, and I'd be like, I'm anxious.

我伴侣会说，你为什么焦虑？你只是累了。快关掉那该死的电脑去睡觉。然后我会说，是啊，你说得对。我不焦虑。

And my partner would say, why are you anxious? You're just tired. Shut the freaking computer and go to bed. And I'd be like, yeah, you're right. I'm not anxious.

我只是累了。我混淆了身体的信号，因为它们和焦虑时的感觉一样。所以让人们知道这点很重要。我们有时会把身体的反应和体验误认为是情绪，其实它们只是生理状态。

I'm just tired. I was confusing the signals in my body because they felt the same as when I was anxious. So it's important for people to know that. We confuse our body, our bodily kind of reactions and experiences for emotions sometimes when they're not emotions. They're just physical states.

认知部分很重要，因为这是我们唯一能沟通的方式。对吧？如果你在接受治疗或试图向伴侣等人表达感受，你需要语言。我其实开发了一款免费应用，你一定会喜欢。我保证，它叫'How We Feel'。

The cognitive piece is important because it's the only way we can communicate. Right? If you're in therapy or if you're trying to communicate to your partner or whoever what you're feeling, you need language. And I actually built this app that's free that you are gonna love. I promise you, it's called How We Feel.

我很自豪能与Pinterest联合创始人本·西尔弗曼共同开发它。他和我们的团队合作了两年，获得了苹果公司的奖项。恭喜。谢谢。

And I was proud to build it with the co founder of Pinterest. His name is Ben Silverman. And he and our teams worked together for two years, got an award from Apple. Congratulations. Thank you.

我们在iOS和安卓平台免费提供了这个工具，称之为'情绪仪表盘'。它基于愉悦度、激活水平和身体感知，分为四个象限：黄、红、蓝、绿。黄色代表高能量愉悦情绪。

We made it available for free on iOS and Android. And it is this tool that we call the Mood Meter, which is based on your pleasantness and your levels of activation and your bodily awareness. And it breaks into four quadrants. We've yellow, red, blue, and green. So yellow are high energy pleasant emotions.

我感到兴奋、欣喜若狂、欢欣鼓舞、乐观向上。

I'm excited. I'm elated. I'm ecstatic. I'm jubilant. I am optimistic.

绿色：我感到平静、满足、安宁、平和、放松、极乐、宁静。蓝色：我感到低落、失望、崩溃、无助、绝望、抑郁。

Green. I am calm, content, tranquil, peace, relaxed, blissful. I am serene. Blue. I am down, disappointed, devastated, helpless, despaired, depressed.

红色。我感到焦虑、不堪重负。我很生气。我很恼火。我很烦躁。

Red. I am anxious, overwhelmed. I am angry. I am peeved. I am irritated.

所以我们涵盖了全部情绪光谱，但这基于你对环境或头脑及身体状态的评估。然后我们提供144个词汇来描述这些感受状态，并附上定义让你理解背后的原因。同时我们还提供身体扫描选项，你可以定位情绪在身体的哪个部位显现。之后你可以长期追踪，观察情绪感受与身体反应之间是否存在规律关联。

So we've got the full range of emotions, but it's based on your appraisal of what's happening in the environment or in your head and your body. And then we give you 144 words to describe those feeling states. So and the definitions of them so you understand the reason behind it. And then we also give you an option to check-in with your body, and you can locate where in your body you're feeling this emotion. And then you could track that over time and see if there's patterns between how you feel and where it shows How a how I feel.

不，是我们如何感受。

No. How we feel.

《我们如何感受》。这款应用有2.5万条评价，在应用商店获得五星好评，还是编辑精选。老兄，太了不起了，恭喜你。

How we feel. That has 25,000 reviews, and it is five stars on the You know? The App Store, and it's an editor's choice. Dude, that's amazing. Congratulations.

多么美好...我是说，肯定有人在抄袭《我的感受》的设计，因为配色方案完全一样。快去让他们停止这种侵权行为。不过确实很棒。我现在的近因效应特别强烈，因为...

What a beautiful I mean, also, someone is definitely sealing it with how I feel, because it's the same color profile. So go and go and get them to, to cease this as for for passing off. Yeah. That's wonderful. I, again, my recency bias is is fucking potent at the moment because Sure.

我刚学会这些新知识，非常兴奋，同时也觉得方向正确。我感觉自己更协调了，所以完全接受这种方式——哪怕是通过应用程序实现的。

I I learned all of this new stuff, and it's very exciting to me, but it also feels right. I feel more aligned in that way. And so I am I'm completely on board even if even if it's it's through an app.

是的。这个应用...你知道，它不需要终身使用，毕竟没人会一辈子用同一个应用。但它是个训练场，能培养觉察力。比如我进办公室前就会想：此刻我的情绪坐标在哪里？

Yeah. I mean, it's a it's a it's you know, one thing about the app, it's not like you have to use it for the whole your whole life because nobody uses any app for their whole life. But it's a training ground. It's building that awareness. It's like, oh, when I'm before I walk into my office, I'm like, where am I in that mood meter?

是什么让我产生那种感觉？哦，我之所以这样是因为家里发生的事。我不该把情绪发泄在工作伙伴身上。这正是我想引导人们做到的。不过还是回到策略上来。

What's causing me to have that feeling? Oh, I'm feeling that way because of what happened at home. I don't need to take that out on the person at work. That's what I'm trying to get people to do. But going back to the strategies.

目前我们只讨论了八种策略中的两种，先说明一下。第一步如我所说，要转变思维模式。顺便提一下，思维模式的另一部分是要对自己的调节能力保持成长型心态。比如我父亲会说：儿子，我就是这样处理怒气的，你也得学着这么处理。

So we've only gotten to two of the eight strategies, just so you know. So the first step is, as I said, shift your mindset. And the other piece of the mindset piece, by the way, is having kind of a growth mindset about your ability to regulate. So my father, for example, he'd say son like, son, this is the way I deal with my anger. You're gonna have to learn how to deal with it.

好吧老爸，看来你是不愿意学习新东西了。这就是固定型思维——认为这是我的宿命，我就是这样的人。但事实并非如此。

Okay, dad. I guess you're not willing to learn anything. That's a fixed mindset. This is my destiny. This is who I am, which is not true.

每个人都能学会更好地调节情绪，这是被证实过的。你并非天生如此。所以先调整思维模式，再注意语言表达，接着是呼吸调节——你必须学会冷静下来。

Everybody could learn to regulate better. That's proven. So you're not born that way. So mindsets, language, then you got another breathing pieces. You gotta be able to deactivate.

如果无法冷静，你就完了。因为一旦被激怒又无法平复，就会导致攻击行为、口出恶言或情绪爆发。这就是正念呼吸训练的作用。但正如我之前所说，认知调节最终可能是最重要的环节。要知道，太多人对自己抱有极端负面的看法。

If you can't deactivate, you're toast. Because if you get triggered and you can't bring it down, you're gonna result in aggression or saying something you regret or just blowing up. That's the mindfulness breathing work. But then the cognitive piece, as I shared earlier, is probably the most important in the end. You know, so many people just have such negative views of themselves.

他们照镜子时总想着：我不够好、不够聪明、不够有创意、没人愿意接近我。这种想法会让人陷入彻底的绝望漩涡。我不记得童年时有谁教过我们要自我关怀——不是那种空洞的安慰，而是实实在在地说：马克，你能挺过去的；马克，你足够坚强。

They look in the mirror and I'm not good enough and I'm not smart enough and I'm not creative enough and nobody wants to be around me. And that just creates a spiral into, you know, total despair. I don't know where in our childhoods we're taught to be self compassionate. Not in a a in a fluffy way, but literally saying like, how do I say, Mark, you can get through this. Mark, you're strong enough.

马克，知道吗？此刻你脑中这种恐惧感其实是暂时的。你不会永远这样。人生总有雨天，也总有晴天。

Mark, guess what? This feeling of terror that's going through your brain right now is actually impermanent. You will not feel this way. There are rainy days. There are sunny days.

今天是雨天，明天将会是晴天。我们投入的所有认知努力，都是为了帮助自己拥有更积极的心态。第三点也好，非第三点也罢，无论我们现在处于什么阶段，我确实了解它们的本质，但我认为我们任何人都不该独自承受忧虑。为什么呢？

Today is the rainy day. Tomorrow is gonna be a sunny day. All that cognitive work that we have to engage in to really help us have more positive outlooks. The third or not the third, but whatever we're on now, I do I know them in terms of what they are, but is I don't think any of us should ever have to worry alone. Why?

比如，为什么我们必须独自面对恐惧和焦虑？当然，如果我正在旅行，在机场遇到航班取消，我会很恼火。马克，你得处理这种情况。但在日常生活中，要知道，我们天生就是社会性动物。实际上我对此做了大量研究。

Like, why do we have to feel alone with our fears and anxieties? Of course, if I'm traveling and I'm in the airport and the flight gets canceled, I'm pissed off. Mark, you gotta, like, deal with this. But in everyday life, you know, we we we're built to be social creatures. And so I've done a lot of research on this actually.

猜猜看？我们最渴望与之相处的人具备哪三大特质？

Take a guess. What are the top three characteristics of the people that we're just desperate to be around?

哦。你能举个不在这些特质里的例子吗？这样我好理解这个分类标准

Oh. What can you give me an example of a characteristic that isn't in there just so that I know this sort of

聪明。没错。

Smart. Right.

好的。好的。

Okay. Okay.

有趣的是它并不在列。

Which is interesting that it's not in there.

专注或好奇，类似亲社会行为。他们的注意力某种程度上集中在我们身上。嗯。有节制或平和，属于这类特质。或者可以说这个人情绪稳定。

Attentive or curious, something like prosocial. Their their attention is focused on us in a way. Mhmm. Regulated or peaceful, something in that kind of realm. The the the person is not volatile would be another way maybe to say it.

嗯。第三点。我本来想说聪明。我本来想说聪明。所以我给你两个我的观点。

Mhmm. Third one. I would have said smart. I would have said smart. So I'll give you I'll give you two two of mine.

有趣的是，聪明这个词从未出现。我研究过25000人。大概只有三四个人会提到。关于我们愿意相处的人——特别是在寻求支持时——有三个核心特质。这个结论已在美国、英国、西班牙、意大利、澳大利亚、香港和哥斯达黎加等地得到跨文化验证。

Interestingly enough, smart never shows up. I've studied this with 25,000 people. Maybe like three people, four people. In terms of the people that we wanna be around in terms of, like especially when it comes to being supported by them, there's three core characteristics. And I've shown this now cross culturally, both from The US to England to Spain to Italy to Australia to Hong Kong to Costa Rica.

没有文化差异。第一，不妄加评判。

No cultural differences. Number one, nonjudgmental.

好。是的。

K. Yep.

在这个充满评判的社会里，大家都精疲力尽了。我只想做自己。你能让我成为想成为的人吗？第二，善于倾听。我们渴望和那些真正倾听的人相处——不是伺机反驳的听，而是帮你拓宽视角的听。

We just everybody's just kind of burnt out from the judgment in our society. Just can I just be myself? Can you just let me be who I wanna be? Number two, good listener. We're dying to be around people who just listen, but not listen to, like, retaliate, but listen to kind of help you gain perspective.

第三就是同理心和同情心。想想看。如果我们生活在一个人们努力做到不妄加评判、善于倾听、充满同理心的社会。说实话，我想生活在这样的世界。

And the third is just empathy and compassion. Think about that. I mean, imagine if we had a society where we were kind of like striving to have people who were nonjudgmental, who were good listeners, who showed empathy and compassion. I mean, I don't know. I wanna live in that world, to be honest with you.

是啊，有趣的是这些都可以说是软技能，虽然用这个词不太典型，但它们确实是温和的特质。

Yeah. It's how funny that those are all very soft skills, I think you would say. Not in the typical form of the word, but they are soft traits.

对吧？没错，这些都是社交和情感方面的能力。

Right? Yeah. They're social and emotional.

对，它们温和、滋养人心、给人安慰。然而当我们看人们试图培养的特质时，往往是魅力、张扬、机智，你知道的，那种言辞敏捷。

Yeah. They're they're gentle. They're nurturing. They're reassuring. And yet when we look at one of the sort of traits that people try to develop, it's their charisma, their brashness, their wittiness, you know, their quickness with words.

但那些似乎并非关键。我...我有点痴迷于类似的观点，来自人生学校，阿兰·德波顿的理论。他认为有些人很有趣，有些人让我们觉得自己很有趣，而我们往往更愿意亲近后者。嗯，我觉得这简直是魅力的反向体现，你可以这么称呼它。

And that that appears to not be the thing. There's this I I I kind of got obsessed with an idea similar to this from, the School of Life, Alain de Botton's thing. And he has this idea that, some people are interesting, some people make us feel interesting, and we tend to want to be around the latter more than the former. Mhmm. I think it's just such a wonderful inverse charisma, you could call it.

对吧？

Right?

完全同意。以他人为导向。

Totally. Other oriented.

以他人为导向，这说法真好。是啊，就像在说：嘿，这里有你的一席之地。

Other oriented. That's nice. Yeah. Here for, hey. Just there's room for you.

这场对话中有你的位置。来吧，加入进来。

There's room for you in this conversation. Like, bring

来吧。这很酷。确实如此。

it on. That's cool. Exactly.

我会坐在这里。我不会评判你。我会陪着你。这与Joe在《成就的艺术》中提出的观点框架非常相似——即脆弱性、公正性、共情心和好奇心。

I'm gonna sit here. I'm not gonna judge. I'm gonna be with you. And this is really, really similar to the view framework that Joe has from Art of Accomplishment. That's vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder.

没错。脆弱性，就是敢于说出真相，即使这很可怕；公正性，意味着不去试图改变对方；共情心，是感受情绪而不被其左右；好奇心，则是纯粹的探索，不追求特定结果。

So Yeah. Vulnerability, saying what's true even when it's scary. Impartiality, not trying to change the other person. Empathy, in the emotion without being captured by it. And wonder, inquisitiveness without an outcome.

就像纯粹的好奇心，但不需要答案，可以这么说。是的。在我看来，你那两万五千人的群体...对，这与那个框架非常契合。

So like curiosity, curiosity, but not needing the answer, so to speak. Yeah. And it seems to me like your 25,000 person cohort would Yeah. That would slot together with It's very similar.

相当契合。不过有趣的是，我的研究覆盖了从童年到成年的阶段。我关注的是：你成长过程中是否拥有这些？是否有人为你创造了做真实自我的环境？

Pretty nicely. Yep. What's interesting though, is that the research that I do goes from childhood to adulthood. And what I look at is, did you grow up with that? Like, did you grow up with someone in your life who created the conditions for you to be your true self?

我发现只有约三分之一的人给出了肯定回答。三分之二的人说没有，成长过程中没人给予这种无评判的接纳。

And what I find is that only about a third of people say yes. Two thirds of people say no. There was nobody when I was growing up. It was nonjudgmental.

所以他们并不是在童年时期就学会了这个，或者类似的情况。他们没有进行模式匹配。我曾经有过一位支持我的父母，然后我希望在成年后也能得到这样的支持。

So it's not like they learned this in childhood or something. They didn't pattern match. I once had a supportive parent, and then I want that in adulthood.

事实上，回到男女差异这个话题，在那些对‘那个人’回答‘是’的人中，有一半表示那个人是父母。所以可以说大约三分之一，也就是17%的人说是父母。在这17%中，只有2%的人说是他们的父亲。哦，哇。是的。

Now, as a matter of fact, going back to the male female thing, of the people who say yes to they the person, half of them say it was a parent. So I could say a third, so it's like 17% say it was a parent. Of that 17%, only 2% say it was their dad. Oh, wow. Yeah.

哇。没有人会把父亲想象成一个不带评判的

Wow. Nobody's nobody's thinking about their dads as a nonjudgmental

倾听者。我在想，你知道，我和很多朋友上周还在讨论，随着播客、课程、身心练习、情感意识等事物的兴起，从婴儿潮一代到千禧一代和Z世代的育儿方式是否会出现某种模式转变。你知道的，打破那些陈旧的代际循环，特别是男性如何陪伴孩子以及他们周围的社区等等。我愿意相信，如果十五、二十年后再做这样的调查，或许会开始看到一些变化，比如‘是的，父亲确实更自在地以不带评判的方式出现’。那种脆弱的男性自尊已经某种程度上得到了转化。

listener. I wonder, you know, me and a lot of the the guys last week were talking about whether there is going to be some sort of pattern shift from the boomer generation to sort of whatever millennial gen z parenting with the ascendancy of podcasts and courses and embodiment work and emotional awareness and stuff like that. You know, breaking some of those, well trodden generational cycles of sort of how specifically men show up for their kids and and this sort of community around them and stuff like that. I would like to think that maybe if you were to do this again in another fifteen, twenty years, that maybe you'll start to see some pockets grow up of, yeah, dad was he did feel more comfortable about showing up in a nonjudgmental way. The the, fragile male ego had been alchemized somewhat.

嗯。但也可能不会。也许这只是对相同模式、相同缺席模式的新包装。我不知道。

Mhmm. But maybe not. Maybe maybe we're maybe this is just fresh packaging on the same, like, patterns, the same non showing up patterns. I don't know.

我是说，我正在努力。你知道吗？我在很多公司工作，但我职业生涯中很重要的一部分是在学校系统里做这项工作。我有一个名为RULER的项目，已经在美国5000所学校实施。我想我正在培养一群——我称他们为‘马文叔叔’，因为马文叔叔是我生命中的英雄。

I mean, I'm working on it. You know? I have I do a lot of work in companies, but I my a big part of my career is doing this work in school systems. And so I have a program called RULER that's in 5,000 schools across The United States. And I think I'm raising a bunch of you know, I call them Uncle Marvin's because Uncle Marvin was my hero in my life.

他就是那个让我有权利感受情绪的人。所以我喜欢思考，我们该怎么做才能创造一个充满具有这些特质的人的世界？这就是我的愿景和希望。但这只是其中的一部分。我们从思维模式到语言，再到平复神经系统，用建设性而非破坏性的自我对话，再到拥有这些我称之为‘情感盟友’的人——那些我们可以分享和倾诉情感的对象。

And he was the person who gave me the permission to feel. And so I like to, you know, what do we do to create a world filled with people who have these characteristics? That's kind of my vision and hope. But that's, you know, that's a piece of it. And so we've gone from mindsets to language to kind of deactivating our nervous system to having the self talk that's productive instead of destructive to having these, I call them emotional allies, meaning our the people that we can share and talk to, talk, you know, our emotions with.

许多运动员真正精通的部分在于睡眠习惯、营养摄入和身体活动。我们知道这三件事直接关系到我们有效调节情绪的能力。

And then there is the piece that a lot of athletes are really knowledgeable about. It's the sleep habits. It's the nutrition. It's the physical activity. We know those three things directly correlate with our ability to regulate emotions effectively.

我认为很多人对此有误解。他们以为，哦，这关乎我的健康。不，不，不。

And I think a lot of people misunderstand that. They think, oh, it's about my health. No. No. No.

如果你睡眠质量不佳，早上就会对孩子发脾气。你只是没有恢复精力。情绪调节需要努力。所以如果你没有时间恢复，你的耐心会变得极差。我在书中真正帮助人们做的最后一件事，是让他们想象自己是一个善于调节情绪的人。

If you don't get good quality sleep, you're going to lose it in the morning with your kid. You're just not going to have replenished. And emotion regulation takes effort. And so if you don't have the time to rejuvenate, you're gonna have a much shorter fuse. And the final thing that I really help people do in my book is I want them to imagine that they have an identity as someone who is well regulated.

这个想法我是从一位私人教练那里偷来的。好吧，说'偷'不太恰当，但灵感确实来自他。疫情期间，我决定要重新健身。我认识了这位叫马可的线上健身专家。

And I stole this from a personal trainer. Okay. Stealing it is not the right way, but I got the idea from him. So during the pandemic, I decided I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get fit again. And I met this guy named Marco, an online fitness expert.

我从来不是——我曾是武术爱好者，运动能力不错，但不是举重选手。我决定要成为一个健身猛男，开始举重。这个从50岁的心理学家转型的过程...

And I was never I was a martial artist. I was very athletic, but not a weightlifter. I decided that I'm gonna become a dude. I'm gonna lift weights. And so this process of going from, you know, I'm a 50 year old psychologist.

我为什么要做硬拉？你知道吗？我内心充满了消极自我对话，觉得这太荒谬了，我为什么要做这个？

Why am I doing dead lifts? You know? Like, don't really like, I had so much negative self talk. I was like, this is ridiculous. Why am I doing this?

我已经结婚27年了，谁在乎我的身材如何？这是摆脱消极自我对话的第一阶段。然后第二阶段是：哇，我居然开始享受这个过程了。

I've been married for twenty seven years. Who cares what my body looks like? And that was the first phase of getting rid of the negative self talk. Right? Then the second phase was, wow, I'm actually enjoying this.

我看到了变化。这很酷。就像，那才是真正的定义。但大约两年后，我就不能不锻炼了。就像现在，已经五年了，我有个小应用，我必须每周完成四次训练。

I I see a difference. This is cool. Like, that's some definition. But by about two years into it, I could not not work out. Like, even today, like, at this point, it's been, like, five years now, and I have a little app and I work like, I have to do my four workouts a week.

如果我没锻炼，就会变得烦躁不安。我想这是因为我现在自认为是个举重的人。这成了我身份的一部分。我的愿景是能将这种理念应用到社会情绪调节中——如果人们都能自称'我是情绪管理大师'。

And I'm, like, irritable and antsy if I don't get that work out in. And I think it's because I now identify as someone who lifts weights. It's part of my identity. My vision is that we can apply that in our society to emotion regulation. That if we had people walking around saying like, I'm a master at managing emotions.

想象你被某人激怒时，能像情绪智商界的尤达大师一样：'随你怎么着，都伤不到我'。天啊，这就是我的愿景，虽然我也不确定。

Think about if you were triggered by someone, it'd just be like the Yoda of emotional intelligence. Whatever the heck, you can't harm me. Oh my god. So that's my vision. I don't know.

你觉得这个想法怎么样？

What do you think about that?

我确实认为，当你开始以某种身份自居时，这是强化所有相关习惯的强大途径。人们会与某种情绪认同——'我是个焦虑的人'、'我是个易怒的人'、'我脾气一点就着'。

I I certainly think that when you begin to identify as something, it's a powerful route to reinforcing all of the habits that come below it. I think, yeah, I people identify with an emotion. I am an anxious person. I am an irritable person. I have a short fuse.

我容易特别兴奋，也容易非常热情，还会快速陷入悲伤。但缺乏'我具有情绪流动性'这种元技能——情绪对我来说来来去去。

I tend to be really excitable. I tend to be very enthusiastic. I get sad quickly. But not the meta skill of I have emotional fluidity. Emotions for me, they come and go.

我能与情绪共处——我有直面情绪的勇气，对吧？这是种值得思考的有趣元技能。这是我上周学到的另一点：真正感受情绪所需的勇气，远比压抑情绪需要的勇气大得多。

I am able to sit with I'm brave with my emotions, right, which is an interesting kind of meta skill to think about that. That was something else that I learned last week. The the kind of bravery that you need to be able to actually feel an emotion is way more bravery than it takes to suppress

一、没错。而且我觉得，你知道，我们

one. Correct. And I like, you know, we

继续说吧，继续。

Go ahead. Go ahead.

不，不。我挺喜欢你刚才提到的观点，就是不知怎么地，社会已经接受了这种说法，比如'我是个焦虑的人'。然后大家就会说'哦哦哦，我理解'。首先，这并不正确。

No. No. I like where you were going a little while ago, which is that for somehow or another, we've accepted it in society, like, I'm an anxious person. And then it's like, oh, oh, oh, you know, I understand. Firstly, that's not true.

你看，你并不是...你的整个身体构造和DNA不是一个'焦虑的人'。你只是在经历焦虑情绪。这种与情绪保持距离的态度很重要，否则会形成自我实现的预言。你生活中的一切都会透过这个滤镜来看待。

Like, you're not you know, your your your whole, you know, body composition and your DNA is not an anxious person. You know, you are feeling anxiety. It's an experience that you're having. So that distance from the emotion is important because it will create a self fulfilling prophecy. You know, just you'll just you'll everything that you do in life, you will see through that lens.

为什么我们不先教给人们所需的技能，然后他们就能认识到：知道吗？是的，我会焦虑。是的，

Well, why don't we give people the skills they need, and then they can identify as, guess what? You know? Yes. I'm gonna have anxiety. Yes.

我会害怕。是的，如果没得到想要的工作我会沮丧，但这不是我生命的终点，也不是世界末日。我可以重新调整心态。

I'm gonna have fear. Yes. I'm gonna feel depressed if I don't get the job I wanted, but it's not the end of my life. It's not the end of the world. I can reframe.

我可以尝试这个，我能做到。我觉得我们现在...这正在成为我在社会中抗争的一个议题，因为说实话，有很多人认为不该教这些，他们觉得应该把这些挡在学校门外，挡在企业门外。

I can try this. I can do this. And I feel like we're just it's that's gonna be it's it's a battle that I'm fighting right now in our society Because there are a lot of people, by the way, who don't think they should be taught. They're thinking, keep this out of schools. Keep this out of, you know, companies.

这件事不该被讨论或提及，这对我来说也是个重大问题。

That this is not something that should be discussed or talked about, which is also a huge issue for me.

你觉得他们为什么这么说？

Why do you think they say that?

我认为有几个原因。其一是有些家长觉得，我应该掌控孩子学习情感知识的方式。

I think it's a number of reasons. One is that I think some parents believe that, like, I should be in control of what my kid learns about feelings.

但数学或历史就可以学。

But not and they learn about maths or history.

没错。我认为这是出于恐惧——害怕孩子会被灌输价值观，或者被告知该做什么。而事实上我们的项目（已在5000所学校开展）完全不是这样。根据跨人群研究，我知道什么方法能真正帮助人们调节情绪。

Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's because there's a fear based, you know, that, you know, that their kid is gonna be told what their values are or the kid is gonna be told what they should be doing. When the truth is in our work, which is, you know, again, in 5,000 schools, it's far from that. I know from the research across all populations what works to help people regulate their emotions.

所以我写了本关于处理情绪的书。这不是马克的个人观点，而是研究成果。总有人问我：你对这事怎么看？你的观点是什么？

That's why I wrote a book on how to deal with your feelings. And so that's not Mark's opinion. This is research. People always ask me, what do you think about this? What is your opinion?

我就说：别问我的个人观点。

I'm like, don't ask me my opinion.

让我用科学告诉你研究结果怎么说。

A I'm science tell you what the research says.

没错。我要回归科学依据。我不想因此被指责，所以...

Exactly. I'm I go back to the science. I don't wanna be blamed So for my

站在父母的角度替他们辩护，孩子的情绪流动性和情绪调节确实与他们的身份认同感更为紧密相连——这种认同感关乎他们真实的自我，是父母与子女血脉传承的一部分。这与他们如何书写字母'e'连接's'，或是背诵乘法表的感觉截然不同。这确实感觉更神圣、更崇高、更个人化，更与自我认同感紧密相连。坦白说，这感觉就像你在篡改源代码。感觉就像你正在介入并篡改核心代码。所以我理解为何人们对此会更加谨慎。

to to play devil's advocate for the parents, there is something to do with a child's emotional fluidity and emotional regulation that feels closer to their sense of identity, identity, who they are truly, which is part of the lineage from parent to child, that the way that they join the letter e to the letter s or the way that they do their five times table does not feel the same. It it it does feel more sacred, more divine, more personal, more attached to that sense of self and identity. And if it feels like you're fucking with the source code, frankly. It feels like you're getting in there and fucking with the source code. So I understand why there would be more trepidation about this.

我上学时可没这玩意儿。这不是我们当年学的内容。万一改变后会以某种方式毁了我的孩子呢？就像他进去修改了启动程序，结果孩子无法开机，只能不断重启循环。

Didn't have this when I was in school. This wasn't something that was taught to me. What if it changes and messes my kid up in some way? You know, he's gone in and he's changed the bootloader programming. You know, the kid can't turn on and it just keeps resetting and restarting or whatever.

我认为如果对家长进行教育，告诉他们这些可能的后果，一旦获得相关知识，很多担忧就会消散。嗯。因为不确定性在于：看，我们正在触碰的是高风险领域。我可以接受小蒂姆的乘法表因为数学老师失误而有点混乱，但我不愿意因为某些经历而试图重构他与羞耻感的关系。

I think if you were to teach the parents and tell them these are the sorts of outcomes, as soon as you get an education piece, I think a lot of that falls away. Mhmm. Because the uncertainty is, hey, this is, you know, high high danger stuff that we're playing with here. I'm happy to undo little Timmy's five times table being a little bit wrecked because the math teacher was off. I don't like the idea of trying to reframe his relationship with shame because of, you know, what what happened in that way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果他们能确信这对我的孩子有益，我认为虽然仍会有'别碰我孩子的内心世界'这类抵触，但这种抵触会减轻。这算是我对父母感受的善意解读。

If they had I am reliably confident that this thing is going to be good for my kid. I think that they would there would still be some pushback because, like, stop fucking with the inner workings of my child. Yeah. But I think that that would be alleviated. That, I think, is my, like, gracious interpretation of why parents feel the work that they do.

要知道，并非所有家长都这样。确实有些家长如此，但很多家长会说‘谢天谢地你在做这件事，因为我完全不知所措’。而且这种说法听起来好像孩子在学校没有情感似的——比如数学课上的焦虑、体育课被孤立、午餐时没人愿意同桌，我们就假装这些不存在吗？

And, you know, it's not all parents. It's some parents, but yes. And a lot of parents are like, thank God you're doing this because I don't know what the heck I'm doing. And by the way, it makes it sound like kids don't have feelings in school. Like, they're anxious in math class or they get left out at a gym or nobody wants to sit with them at the lunch table, we're and just gonna ignore that?

这太荒谬了不是吗？孩子每天要经历六到八小时的生活。我们必须确保他们能觉察自己的情绪，有勇气表达，并掌握应对挫折、压力和恐惧的策略。说真的，我无法想象——这套理论在我看来完全站不住脚。

Like, that's ridiculous. Right? The kid is experiencing life six to seven, eight hours a day. Let's make sure that kid is aware of what they're feeling, has the courage to speak up, and has the strategies to manage the frustration, the overwhelm, the scare. I mean, I just there's I can't imagine that, like, that really makes a lot of sense to me.

我理解你的观点。不过我要稍微反驳一下你的反驳——就当是个小角色扮演吧——既然社会焦虑水平三十年来上升了50%，单就家长群体而言，你们的表现确实不尽如人意。各位，这就像...

And I hear you on that. You know, one thing I'll just I'll push back on your pushback as as a little little role play here, is that given that anxiety in our society has gone up like 50% in the last thirty years, just parents, you're not doing such a good So Hey, guys. It's like

是啊是啊。那你告诉我其他选择啊。我自己都没处理好情绪，我儿子当然也学不会。

Yeah. Yeah. Show me the alternative. I, you know, I didn't deal with my emotions, and my son's not gonna deal with his either. Yeah.

本节目由Whoop赞助播出。我佩戴Whoop已超过五年，远早于他们成为节目合作伙伴。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Episode is brought to you by Whoop. I've been wearing Whoop for over five years now, way before they were a partner on the show.

根据应用显示，我实际用它追踪了1600多天的生活数据，这太疯狂了。这是唯一让我坚持使用的可穿戴设备，因为它记录所有重要指标：睡眠、锻炼、恢复、呼吸、心率甚至步数。全新的5.0版是最佳版本，具备使Whoop不可或缺的所有优势——体积缩小7%，但拥有14天续航，新增健康寿命追踪功能可监测习惯对衰老速度的影响，还为女性提供荷尔蒙分析。

I've actually tracked over sixteen hundred days of my life with it according to the app, which is insane. And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters, sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps. And the new five point o is the best version. You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable, 7% smaller, but now it's also got a fourteen day battery life and has HealthSpan to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging. It's got hormonal insights for ladies.

我是Whoop的超级粉丝，所以它成为我唯一长期使用的可穿戴设备。最棒的是你可以免费加入——全新Whoop5.0腕带零元购，首月免费用，还有30天退款保证。相当于免费获得。

I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop. That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with. And best of all, you can join for free. Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop five point o strap, plus you get your first month for free, and there's a thirty day money back guarantee. So you can buy it for free.

免费试用。如果29天后不满意，他们会直接退款。现在，你可以通过下方描述中的链接或访问join.whoop.com/modernwisdom，获得全新的Whoop 5.0及30天试用资格。网址是join.whoop.com/modernwisdom。反正我很感兴趣。

Try it for free. If you do not like it after twenty nine days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop five point o and that thirty day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. I'm I'm interested anyhow.

我很感兴趣。最难应对的情绪有哪些？这会因人而异吗？我想肯定是的。有些情绪更根深蒂固，比如我们的基因倾向、多巴胺基线，你知道的，这些会让我们产生特定反应。

I'm interested. What are the most challenging emotions to work with? Does it vary from person to person? I imagine it must do. There will be some that are more sort of deeply seated, our genetic predisposition, our dopamine baseline, you know, predisposes us to whatever effect.

但总的来说，是否存在某些情绪特别难处理，而另一些相对容易应对？

But, generally, are there certain emotions that are more difficult to work with and easier to work with?

我认为通常来说，我们所谓的自我意识情绪最难处理。因为这些情绪直指你作为人的本质，比如羞耻感这类情绪，那确实很难应对。不像处理小时候害怕去公园那种恐惧——现在的问题是自我价值感被贬低，就像有人让我相信自己不值得被爱。

I think in general, the what we call the self conscious emotions are the hardest to deal with. Because when they are about you as a human being, like the shame kind of family, that's that's tough. It's not like dealing with, you know, I'm a little I felt afraid of, you know, going to the park as a kid. You know, it's that I have diminished self worth. Like, someone has made me believe that I'm not worthy.

修复这种情绪需要更多努力。嫉妒情绪也是，人们常会混淆——顺便问下，嫉妒和羡慕有什么区别？

It's a lot more work to repair. The jealousy emotions, the feeling that you know, people confuse. By the way, what's the difference between jealousy and envy?

哦，我...我觉得我应该知道这个。嫉妒是不希望别人拥有某物，而羡慕更像是渴望处于别人的位置。我说得对吗？

Oh, I I think I should know this. Jealousy is wanting someone to not have it, and envy is sort of about wishing that that you were where someone else is. Is that right?

给你打B+。

You get a b plus.

差不多吧。

Close enough.

第四点。所以嫉妒就是想要别人拥有的东西。对吧？是的，那种感觉就像是，天啊。

Four. So envy is just wanting what the person has. Right? It's an yeah. That's a like, gosh.

真希望我也能拥有那个。

I wish I could have that.

哦，而嫉妒是害怕别人得到后会把它从你身边夺走。耶。听着，我不是在胡说。我花了很多时间思考情绪。

Oh, it's jealousy is fearing that somebody else getting it is gonna take it away from you. Yay. Listen. I'm not bullshitting. I've spent a lot of time trying to think about emotions.

好吗？就像，到目前为止我对这次该死的突击测验的成绩真的很满意。虽然它不值一提

Okay? Like, I'm I'm really happy with my grades so far on this fucking pop pop quiz. It wasn't worth

嘿。等等。等等。这不是什么流行心理学测验。

Hey. Wait. Wait. Wait. This is not a pop psychology quiz.

这可是正经的，你知道

This is a real, you know

不，突然出现的意思是，我对此毫无准备。

No, pop as in, I wasn't prepared for it.

他妈的

He fucking

他突然这么对我。就是这样。好了，说到自我意识情绪。为什么

sprung it upon me. There you go. Okay, so the self consciousness emotions. Why

嫉妒是个大问题，因为它很难控制。当你嫉妒妈妈给兄弟姐妹更多关注，觉得他们之间的关系比你更亲密时，这种情绪很难处理。对吧？这种情绪管理有很多层次，你确实无法独自应对。羞耻感也是如此。

is And so jealousy is a big one because there's not a lot of control. When you're jealous of that mom is giving your sister, your brother more attention than you and you feel like their relationship is stronger than yours, that's a lot to work with. Right? There's there's a lot of layers to that kind of management, and you you really can't do it alone. The same thing with the shame.

独自应对羞耻感非常困难。通常我们需要他人帮助重新找回正确视角。

It's very hard to manage shame on your own. Oftentimes, we need other people to help us kind of regain our perspective.

有意思。那么我想知道感受情绪和处理情绪之间是否有区别，界限在哪里。我猜不感受情绪就很难调节或处理它们，但你可以感受情绪而不去处理。

Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. I I'm interested if there is a distinction between feeling emotions and dealing with them and what the line looks like between those two things. I imagine it must be difficult to regulate or deal with emotions without feeling them, but you presumably can feel them without dealing with them.

我不知道需要感受多少才能...该如何开始划分这两者的界限呢？

And I don't know how much feeling you need to do in order to be able to like, how do you start to delineate the territory there?

好吧，这是一场关于情感语言的有趣对话。这里有感受、情绪、心境、性情，还有精神疾病。它们各不相同。我们要不要花点时间探讨一下？

Well, this is an interesting conversation around, like, the language of emotion. So there's feelings, there's emotions, there's moods, There's dispositions. There's mental illnesses. And they're all different. So should we go there for a minute?

当然。

Sure.

好的。情绪通常是对刺激的自动反应，这种刺激可能来自我们头脑中的想法或环境中的事物，导致我们的思维、动机、表达和行为发生变化。它植根于我们的整个人生。这是我认为人们常常忽略的一点——当我们经历某种情绪时，它不仅仅源于当下那一刻。

Okay. So an emotion is typically an automatic response to a stimulus that comes from something in our heads or something in our environments that causes us to have a shift in our thinking, in our motivation, in our expression, in our behavior. That's rooted in our entire life. That's the piece that I think people miss. That when we're experiencing an emotion, it's not just from that moment.

它是我们整个人生积累到那一刻的产物。这就是情绪。而感受只是一种私人的主观体验。比如，我今天不想和克里斯说话，我不太想去看电影。

It's coming from our entire life to that moment. That's an emotion. A feeling is just a private subjective experience. You know, I don't feel like talking to Chris today. I don't feel like going to the movies.

你知道，当我想到那个人时，感觉不太好。这可能是身体上的反应，也可能是心理上的。它更像是这种主观体验。心境可以基于情绪或感受，但不同之处在于它持续时间更长且强度较低。

You know, that I don't get a good feeling when I think about that person. That could be in your body. It could be your head. It's a little more kind of this kind of subjective experience. A mood can be based off of an emotion or a feeling, But it's different because it's longer in duration and less intense.

比如我现在很烦躁。不知道为什么，但今天心情特别好。这就是心境。你并不清楚它从何而来，可能是天气的影响。

So like I'm irritable. I don't know what it is, but I'm in a great mood today. That's a mood. You don't really know where it came from. It could be the weather.

也可能是昨天好消息的余韵。而性情是我们之前提到的概念，比如我倾向于焦虑型人格。你知道，我总体上更容易感到悲伤，或者倾向于认为一切都会好起来。这更多是指你的性情倾向。

It could be lingering good news from yesterday. A disposition is something we were kind of getting at earlier, which is I tend to be on the anxiety spectrum. You know, I tend to be more sad in general. I tend to be that kind of like, everything's going to be great. That's more your disposition.

显然，抑郁症诊断这类都属于诊断范畴。我认为人们并不真正了解情绪语言中的这种颗粒度——如果你愿意这么称呼的话——而了解这一点可能对人们有所帮助。

And then obviously, depression diagnosis, those are diagnoses. And so I think people don't really know that granularity, if you want to call it that, in the language of emotion, and that could be helpful for people to just know.

我确实认为人们容易混淆两者之间存在差异或困难，即感受情绪与处理情绪。就像‘我正在感受我的焦虑’，然后‘好吧’这样。

I I certainly think that there is a a difference or difficulty with people confusing the two, feeling an emotion and dealing with it. It's like, I'm feeling my anxiety. It's like, okay.

是的，我还没回答你的问题。刚才我有点像是客串了一下教授角色，想让大家理解感受、情绪等这类细微的语言差异。你之前问的是感受情绪和处理情绪之间的区别。

Yeah. I didn't get to answer your question yet. Yep. So that was just my I mean, kind of like being mister professor for a minute to get people, like, this kind of nuance and language for feelings, moods, etcetera. You were asking earlier about the difference between kind of feeling your feelings and dealing with your feelings.

我的观点是我们不必处理所有情绪。有时它们只是转瞬即逝的——‘嗨，焦虑，你来了啊，欢迎待一会儿’。

And my point is that we don't have to deal with all of our feelings. Sometimes they just they're ephemeral. Oh, hi, anxiety. You're here for a minute. Welcome.

‘待会儿见，没什么大不了的’。比如在会议上有点沮丧，我们会想‘它会过去的’——‘这到底会对我现在有多大影响呢？’

See you soon. No big deal. We get a little frustrated in a meeting. We're like, it's gonna go away. Like, how much is this gonna really impact me right now?

放手让它过去。只有当我们觉得当前的情绪会干扰人际关系、学习、决策或表现时，才真正需要调节。

Let it go. It's when we feel like the emotion that we're experiencing is gonna interfere with our relationship, with our learning, with our decisions, you know, with our performance. That's when you really need to regulate.

嗯，这很有趣。我想谈谈羞耻感。我觉得羞耻感非常有意思，你是怎么看待羞耻感的？

Yeah. That's interesting. I wanna talk about shame. I think that shame is really interesting. I I I what do you how do you come to think about shame?

这是一种元情绪吗？鉴于羞耻常属于二阶感受——我感受到某种情绪，又因此产生羞耻感——它是否以某种方式自成独特类别？

Is it a meta emotion? Is it is it in a unique category in some way given that shame is often one of those second order things that I feel a thing and I have shame around it?

我认为，羞耻应归类于自我意识情绪。但羞耻的棘手之处在于，多数情况下我们并非主动感到羞耻，而是被他人施加的。当某人判定我们不值得尊重，并竭力让我们相信这点时，我们就会内化这种认知。这正与煤气灯效应的运作机制相呼应。

I would say that, as I I think shame, what we would put in that in the category of a self conscious emotion. But I think the the the the difficulty with shame is that we don't put shame upon ourselves for the most part. We are shamed by people. Someone else has decided that we're not worthy, and they do everything they can to convince us of that, and then we believe it. And that goes back to the gaslighting piece.

我认为人生中经历的羞耻感，大多源自他人对我们的煤气灯操纵。

I think most of the shame that we experience in life is because of other people gaslighting us.

请再详细说说煤气灯效应这部分。你其实不该有那种感受，也不该觉得自己应该那样。

Say a little bit more about the gaslighting thing. You don't really feel that. You shouldn't feel that.

没错。煤气灯效应的核心在于，你最终会相信他人为你构建的虚假现实。

Yeah. Gaslighting is when essentially at the heart of gaslighting is that the reality that someone else has created for you is something that you now believe.

能否在情绪领域给我们举个实例？

Could you give us an example in the world of emotions?

比如有人不断对你说'克里斯，你太敏感了，你没发现自己过度敏感吗？'起初你可能怀疑'或许我是？但我不这么认为'

Yeah. Let's say, you know, Chris, you're just so sensitive. You know, have you ever have you realized like you're you're just too sensitive? And then in the beginning, you're like, you know, well maybe I am. I don't think I am.

但久而久之，我说服你开始相信自己过于敏感。这就是煤气灯效应。

But after a while I've convinced you that you start believing that you are too sensitive. That's gaslighting.

如果这是真的呢？

What if it's true?

没有人会过于敏感。

No one can be too sensitive.

对此我很抱歉。现在，我对深入了解这个话题非常感兴趣。我曾接触过高度敏感人群，想知道这意味着什么，以及你是否研究过这方面。是的，这正是我想探讨的内容，请多给我讲讲。

Sorry about that. Now that, I am very interested in in hearing more about. I had I had a highly sensitive people, and what that means and whether you've looked into that Yeah. As something that I thought I wanted So to talk give me give me more on that.

是的。我的意思是，这就像拥有过多的自我同情心一样。实际上，这种情况并不存在。所有这些都关乎情商，至少我在这里讨论的是这样。所以，是的，你可能容易敏感。

Yeah. I mean, it's like having too much self compassion. Like, there's no such thing. The all of this is about emotional intelligence, at least what I'm talking about here. So, yes, you may be prone to being sensitive.

我是个非常敏感的人。但我的情绪调节是，马克，在没有他人评判的情况下，你认为自己对此事过于敏感了吗？你是否觉得，好吧，也许这次我确实反应有点过度了。

I'm a very sensitive person. But my emotion regulation is, Mark, without it being someone else's decision, do you think you're being too sensitive about this? Do you think that, you know, oh, okay. Maybe this is an instance where I am being a little too overreactive. Okay.

我可以自己做出这个判断。但不能让别人来定义你的感受。那样就太不尊重了。

I can give myself that. But it can't be someone else's definition for you. That's just not cool.

我认为当人们谈论'过于敏感'时，他们实际指的是你的情绪反应能力在现实世界中无法正常运作，让你处于被动地位。你觉得这种评价方式是否公允地反映了某些人的看法？

I think when people when people think about being too sensitive, what they mean is your level of emotional reactivity is nonfunctional in the real world and puts you on the back foot. Is that a fair assessment, do you think, of kind of, like, how some people think about it?

确实如此。但我不认为这是正确的思考方式。我想你真正想表达的是那个人无法自我调节。他们缺乏应对策略，完全任由他人摆布

It is. I don't think it's the right way to think about it. I think what you're getting at is that that person can't regulate. They don't have the strategies. They have allowed someone else to the most

啊对没错。不，我完全明白你的意思。所以'你太敏感'其实是指你似乎能感知情绪却无力应对，而不仅仅是感知情绪本身

of That makes yeah. No. I I know exactly what you mean. So you are too sensitive is you seem to feel things and not be able to deal with them, not seem to be feeling things.

正确

Correct.

没错。但如果你天生属于高敏感人群，这几乎就像...就像出生在肥胖家庭一样。比如你的胃饥饿素分泌更多，胃容量更大，基础代谢率更低等等

Right. But if you are somebody that is of the highly sensitive persuasion, it's almost like it's almost like coming from a family of fat people or something. Like you have great agreliin release. You have a bigger stomach. You have a lower BMR or whatever.

我的朋友，不幸的是你不得不比那些来自瘦子家庭的人付出更多努力来保持体型——他们胃更小、饥饿素更少、基础代谢更高。你是否觉得高敏感人群也是如此？他们更容易感知情绪波动，无论是积极还是消极的体验都更深刻

You, my friend, unfortunately, are going to have to do more work to stay in shape than person from skinny family with smaller stomach, less ghrelin, higher, BMR. Do you see it kind of in that sort of a way that people who are more prone to sensitivity, I. E, feel things more deeply, both up and down depth, that there is there's one

不完全是。我认为敏感特质只是其中一例。我有个朋友曾是网球教练，她精力旺盛到让我想躲进毯子里。你知道吗？就像需要冷静剂一样

thing to no. I I think the sensitivity is just one example. I mean, I have a friend who is a former tennis coach who has so much energy, she makes me wanna, like, crawl under a blanket. You know? And it's like, calms out.

你的活力快把我耗尽了。她需要学会调节自己，因为她那种对事物永远保持热情和兴奋的需求。我就在想，天啊，你能不能冷静点？而我呢，更愿意去喝杯咖啡，坐在葡萄酒吧里。

Your energy is killing me. So she needs to know how to down regulate because of her kind of endless need to be enthusiastic and excited about things. I'm like, gosh. Like, can you calm down? I, on the other hand, am someone who you know, I would rather go for a cup of coffee and sit at a wine bar.

有时候她会说，马克，来吧，我们能不能有点活力？比如，我是不是该活跃点？我就觉得，那不是我的风格。不过，作为经常在会议上演讲的人，我不能像在咖啡店聊天那样做一个半小时的演讲。

And sometimes she's like, you know, Mark, come on. Like, we get a little energy here? Like, can you like did I come out? I'm like, that's not me. However, as someone who presents a lot at conferences, I can't be like talking like I'm in a coffee shop for an hour and a half on a presentation.

对吧？我必须走出舒适区，扮演娱乐者，讲笑话，这对我来说很耗神。而她不会觉得累，她能整天这样。但她的活力会耗尽我的精力。

Right? I've gotta get myself out of my comfort zone and, like, be the entertainer and tell the jokes and, like and that's draining for me. Whereas it's not draining for her. She could do it all day long. But she's draining for me.

你觉得我们是不是都需要自我认知和社交意识？并不是说哪种性格不好。我认为用好坏来评判是不对的。我们就是我们，人就是人。

Do you feel like we all it's about self awareness and social awareness. And so it's not that anything is bad. I just think that's a bad way to think about it. Like, we are who we are. People are people.

除非你是刻薄残忍的那种人，否则就做你自己。除非你在自我伤害，否则就做自己。你必须学会在人际关系、领导岗位、运动团队等各种场合中调整自己。这就是调节的意义所在——比如意识到自己话太多了。

You know, unless you're being mean and cruel, then, you know, be who you are. Unless you're self harming, be who you are. You have to learn that you have to navigate who you are in relationships and in leadership positions, sports teams, you know, whatever it is. And that's where the regulation piece comes in. That's where it's like, oh, I'm aware that I'm talking too much.