#959 - Underoath - 音乐背后不为人知的心理健康挣扎

在我们继续之前，如果你感觉不如期望的那样敏锐或充满活力，进行血液检查是最好的起点，这也是我与Function合作的原因。他们每年进行两次实验室检测，监测超过100种生物标志物。他们有一支由专业医师组成的团队，将数据整理成简洁的仪表盘，并提供可操作的见解和建议，以改善你的健康和寿命。他们追踪从心脏健康到激素水平、甲状腺功能和营养缺乏的一切指标。他们甚至能在第一阶段筛查50种癌症，这比年度体检提供的数据多五倍。这样的血液检测和分析通常需要花费数千美元，但通过Function，仅需500美元。

Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels, your thyroid function, and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500.

现在，前一千名用户还可以额外减免100美元，意味着只需400美元就能获得和我一样的血液检测套餐。只需点击下方描述中的链接，或访问functionhealth.com/modernwisdom。网址是functionhealth.com/modernwisdom。当你提到关于焦虑和神经系统调节方面的一些挑战时，你有没有看过《How I'm Feeling Now》，那部关于Lewis的纪录片？没有。

And right now, the first thousand people can get an additional $100 off, meaning it's only $400 to get the exact same blood panel that I use. Just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. When you mentioned about some of the challenges you've had with anxiety, nervous system regulation coming back down, Did you see How I'm Feeling Now, the documentary about Lewis? Uh-uh.

老兄，它在Netflix上。不，它就像是——

Dude, it's on Netflix. It's No. It is like

我知道他经历过挣扎

I know he's had struggles

作为音乐人，这简直是传奇。所以一定要看这个，我每个月都必须得提一次。他创作了第一张专辑。我是说，他因为在一个苏格兰偏远酒吧里演唱自己16岁时写的歌的视频而爆红，然后慢慢制作了这张专辑。我想他大概19岁时发行的吧，差不多那样。是的。

with fucking canon if you're a musician to So watch this I must I must talk about this, like, every every month. He writes his first album. I mean, he he blows up from a song video that was him playing in some random pub in the arse end of Scotland singing this song that he'd written when he was 16, and then he sort of slowly builds up this album. I think he releases it maybe when he's 19, something like that. Yeah.

然后就是数十亿的播放量。每首歌，每一样东西。而且他有一种非常有趣的表达方式，非常自嘲。

And then it's billions billions of streams. Everything. Every single everything. And he's got this really interesting way of presenting. He's very self deprecating.

他在这方面非常英国化，不会太把自己当回事，也不追求华丽。你知道吗？是的。

He's very very sort of British in that way. He doesn't take himself too seriously. He's not glamorous. You know? Yeah.

他在表现方式上非常谦逊。然后疫情来了，纪录片从疫情期间开始。他在苏格兰父母的老房子里，后面有个棚屋改成的录音室，非常不错。墙上挂满了白金唱片、金唱片、奖项，一个接一个。是的。

He like, very self effacing in the way that he he shows up. And then COVID happens, and the documentary starts in COVID. And it's him in his mom and dad's old house in Scotland, and he's in this back shed thing, which is very nice, right, recording studio. And it's like the wall is just platinum record, platinum record, gold record, platinum record, platinum record, award, award, award, like, da da da da da. Yep.

他的日常生活是，用整个童年、青少年和成年早期来创作第一张专辑，然后面对全球最大唱片公司的压力，他们不停追问：‘嘿，进展如何了？’

And his day to day life is him having had his entire childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood to write his first album, and then the pressure of the biggest record labels on the planet saying, hey. How are we going with anything?

需要跟进。是的。

Need to follow-up. Yeah.

是啊。情况如何？他逐渐发展出一种抽搐症状。随着时间的推移，这种神经性抽搐演变成了妥瑞氏症。所以他本身就有妥瑞氏症的倾向，但这次是100%由这件事引发的。

Yeah. How's anything? And he develops, like, twitch. He develops this nervous twitch over time that it turns out is Tourette's. So he's got this predisposition for Tourette's, but it's 100% brought on by this.

没错。然后你期待的是能有个美好的结局，某种胜利的英雄时刻。但在整部纪录片的最后一集里，他走上舞台时紧张得唱不出歌。他父母坐在观众席上，父亲直接从座位冲向后台去拥抱儿子。

Yeah. And then what you want is for there to be some wonderful conclusion, some sort of victorious hero moment at the end. And one of the final shows of the entire documentary, he steps out on stage, and he's so nervous he can't sing the songs. And his dad and his mom are in the crowd, and his dad sprints from the seat to, like, be backstage to, like, hold his son. Yeah.

这一幕令人心碎。后来他去参加了格拉斯顿伯里音乐节，我记得他可能连续两年都没能完成表演。就是站上舞台后直接崩溃了。

And it, like, tears them up. And he went out and did Glastonbury. I think he might have done Glastonbury two years in a row and not been able to perform. Like, got to stage. And then shut down.

哇，天啊。而且不止一次。这依然是我看过最具教育意义的作品之一，它教会我两件事。第一件是中间有段情节，他在解释这段疯狂的人生轨迹时——

Wow. Ugh. Like, multiple times. And that that was that's like it's still it's one of the most formative things I've ever watched, and it it it taught me two lessons. First one, there's this bit partway through, and he's explaining about this sort of, you know, wild trajectory of what's happened.

他突然直视镜头说：人们以为名声会改变你。名声不会改变你，只会改变你身边的每个人。我当时就想：卧槽，太深刻了。

He turns straight to the camera, and he goes, people think that fame changes you. Fame doesn't change you. Just changes everybody around you. And I was like, holy fuck. That's deep.

对。第二点让我意识到，有些人拥有成为超级巨星的才能，却天生不适应这种生活。或者说有些人天赋异禀注定成名，却无法承受成名的代价。

Yeah. And then the second thing it made me realize is that there are some people who have the skill set to be unbelievably famous and successful, but a disposition that is not very comfortable with it. Or you could say there are some people that are built to be so talented that they would be famous, but they can't deal with the fame.

比如内向型人格之类的。

And that'd an introvert or whatever.

我觉得成名本身就不健康。在科技发达的今天，连爱荷华州有个女孩被绑架殴打的消息都能传到我耳朵里，这些信息像衣服一样穿在我们身上。我们这代人见证了世界变得如此之小——当年巡演时还用山姆会员店的电话卡打长途，那会儿连手机都没有。

I mean, I think I think fame in general is not healthy. I mean, I think with technology and everything being everywhere, like now I can hear about a girl who was kidnapped and beaten up in Iowa, and now I'm wearing that. And it's like the world got so short and so small in our lifetime. Like, we used to tour with Sam's Club payphone cards to to call home. No cell phones.

我们用的是地图册。没有GPS，就是纸质地图册。现在都是苹果地图、TomTom导航了。

We had an Atlas. No GPS. An Atlas. It's a Mac. TomTom.

哦。

Oh.

不。九十年代和两千年代初，一家叫Rand McNally的公司会制作这种活页夹式的书。

No. A company called Rand McNally in the nineties and early two thousands would make this, like, binder book.

对。好的。嗯。

Right. Okay. Yeah.

是的。整个美国的高速公路

Yeah. Entire United States with highways

和道路。我们已经在...里有了这个。

and roads. We've got we've got that in the.

然后每本大约有65页，所以你可以翻到具体某个州的部分，我们那时真的靠嘴问路导航。

And then every there's, like, 65 pages, so then you get into, like, per state, and we would navigate literally by mouth.

简直他妈像定向越野一样找下一个演出地点。

Fucking orienteering your way to the next video.

我都不知道我们当时怎么做到的。后来迷路的时候

I don't know how we did it. And then and then when we got lost

这完全是额外的操蛋负担。

It's just an additional fucking burden.

是啊。迷路后你得找付费电话，输入密码显示还剩120分钟，我打给演出承办人说'我们快到了'。转眼现在有了Instagram，你的播客可能被75个国家的人收听。

Yeah. Then you you get lost, so you have to go find a payphone. You type in your minutes. It says you have one hundred and twenty minutes left, and I'm calling this promoter being like, I think we're close. And then fast forward, and we have Instagram, and your podcast is being listened to in probably 75 countries.

这在过去根本不可能。我觉得信息爆炸加速了成名机制，但没人知道怎么应对。我们本该...该死。人类本该活在社区里，懂吗？

That was not possible. And I think that acceleration of information has just accelerated the kind of the fame engine a bit, and I don't think anyone knows how to deal with it. I think we we were meant Shit. We were meant to be in a community. You know?

大概一百人左右吧。

Of a 100 people or whatever.

在我们社区里。我应该知道邻居的名字，他不必买割草机因为可以借我的。就像，这确实是我们人类直到大约二十年前还在做的事。而比我们更早这样做的人就像是神话般的异类。披头士乐队，当然，他们是全球性的成功。

To be in our neighborhood. I should know my neighbor's name, and he shouldn't have to buy a lawnmower because he could borrow mine. Like, that is what we have done literally until about twenty years ago as people. And the the ones that did it before us were like these mythical outliers. The Beatles, obviously, yeah, worldwide successes, of course.

但在日常生活中，我们的孩子是第一代刚出生就认为生活本该如此的人。

But on a day to day life, our kids are the first generation just being born into this is the way life is.

嗯，我想现在听这个播客的每个人，可能都有一个他们早年就认识的朋友，或者曾经共度时光的人，现在在某个平台上拥有百万粉丝。

Well, I think probably everyone that's listening to this podcast right now will have one friend that they know personally from earlier in their life or that they've spent some sort of a time with that's got a million followers on some platform.

是的。

Yep.

而且可能不止一个。有各种各样的，既有合理也有不合理的原因。

And for Probably more than that. A variety of, like, justified and unjustified reasons.

是啊，你懂的

Yeah. You know

我的意思是？比如，有人可能认识邦妮·布鲁。有人可能认识，比如说，一个超棒的诗人或什么的。当然不是说邦妮·布鲁不是诗人。

what I mean? Like, someone might know Bonnie Blue. Someone might know, like, a great fucking poet or some shit. Yeah. And not that Bonnie Blue's not a poet.

那种迅速崛起的速度

That speed of ascendancy

对啊。

Yeah.

反馈循环，就像你提到的部落祖先那种快速机制，典型的规模是怎样的。对。我们的问题在于之前的参照群体——比如邓巴数所说的150人左右。但在那150人的部落里，并不是一个大整体。

Feedback loop, like how fast and, you know, you mentioned about sort of tribe ancestral setup, what's typical. Yeah. The problem that we have is our previous comparison group would have been so you got your Dunbar number of about a 150. Yeah. But within the 150 tribe, that wasn't one big tribe.

通常会分成约30人的小群体。会分离出去。对。他们之间算是中度紧密关联，但并非完全绑定在一起。

It was a little pods typically of about 30 within that. Break off. Yeah. Yeah. They'd sort of be, like, moderately tightly affiliated, but not totally totally tied together.

然后还有更广泛的群体。你能比较的对象其实没多少人。没错。因为150人里75个是男性。75人里可能只有15到20个不到14岁。

And then you would have this this sort of wider group. You didn't have that many people to compare yourself to. Correct. Because out of one fifty, 75 are male. Fucking like, of the 75, maybe 15 or 20 or under the age of 14.

对吧？因为那时候人都死得早。你基本不会和14岁小孩竞争。是的。

Yeah. Right? Because everybody fucking dies early. He's like, well, I'm kinda not competing with the 14 year old. Yep.

所以实际竞争对象非常有限。而现代社会的问题是，我们根本不知道竞争参照群体的边界在哪里。你可以把自己和任何人比较——比如你们某种程度上甚至能和萨布丽娜·卡彭特比，尽管你们除了都会用脸发声外毫无共同点。对吧？

So, you know, there's such a small group of people that you end up actually competing with, and the issue is that the modern world, we don't know where the boundary of what our competition comparison group is. You can compare yourself to Yes. Everybody in a different it's like you guys, in some way, are comparable with Sabrina Carpenter despite having you could not find a person that's more different than you other than the fact that she makes notes come out of her face. Yeah. Right?

确实。嗯。看了那纪录片我完全不惊讶。说实话如果我们全程记录生活，也会有那种尴尬时刻。

Yeah. Like Mhmm. Yeah. I think I think with that knowing that, I'm not surprised by that documentary. And honestly, if we were filming our lives the whole time, we would have those moments too.

我...我深有体会。

I I have a version of that.

我刻意不上Instagram，不看其他乐队的Spotify数据。因为只会引发比较。就算看小乐队数据来获得优越感——

Even like, I intentionally don't go on Instagram, and I intentionally don't look at other bands' Spotify numbers. I don't look at that because all it does is lead to comparison. And, you know, even if I'm looking at it and looking at smaller bands to make myself feel better

仍是比较。

Still comparison.

这种二元对立始终存在。我需要多巴胺刺激，需要确认自我价值。结果就变成'至少我比那家伙强'——这根本无助于进步。

It's a it's the binary's still there. I'm I need a a dopamine hit. I need to feel valid. I don't. So let me find something to be like, at least I'm not as bad as that guy, which is never the way anything progresses.

你知道吗？说实话，我觉得名声只是件不幸的事。

You know? And I think fame is just an unfortunate an unfortunate thing, to be honest.

能讲讲那个故事吗？你那个刘易斯·卡帕尔迪级别的经历？

Would you tell me that story? Your Lewis Capaldi equivalent?

是啊。2004年2月，我们大概是在03年写的《追逐安全》对吧？然后2004年2月我们就开始巡演了。

Yeah. I in 02/2004, we I think we I guess we probably wrote chasing safety in o three. Right? We did. So in 02/2004, we started touring on it.

那时候还在用Myspace，所以能看出势头有多猛。那年我们参加了Warp Tour音乐节，在Smart Punk舞台演出，那个舞台简直...

And we were still touring as a pre there was Myspace, so there was some evidence of how things big things were getting or not. But that year, we did the warp tour, and we we were playing on a stage called the Smart Punk Stage, which was like

七个舞台里最寒酸的一个。

like a Out of the seven stages, it was the worst one.

真的就是辆平板卡车。每天开场乐队都得自己搭台子

Like like, literally, like a truck with a flat surface. Like, the opening band from the stage had to build it every day

太硬核了。

to Sick.

这样才能争取到演出机会。

To gain their access to play it.

嗯，明白。

Yeah. Okay.

那帮人里现在还有联系的，有个家伙现在在Paramore乐队。超酷的Underminded乐队成员乔伊·莫林。

Some of those guys we're still friends with. One of those guys plays in Paramore now. Sick. Underminded. Joey Maulin.

是啊。所以

Yeah. So

我们那个夏天刚开始演出时，台下只有一百到一百五十人，都是些熟悉地下硬核场景的小众乐迷，专程来Warped Tour看我们。但到夏末时，场面彻底炸了。我永远忘不了——我们当时在

we started out playing that summer in front of a hundred and hundred fifty people, people that were niche enough to know the underground hardcore scene that would come see us on Warped Tour. And by the end of that summer, it had blown up. I'll never forget it. We played

波士顿

in

演出，恰好和The Used乐队同台。那届Warped Tour有很多这样的交叉演出。

Boston, and we played during the used. There was a lot of crossover during

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

舞台中央有个巨型充气时刻表。在Warped Tour里，你永远不知道自己的演出时间——每天早晨十点半才会公布当天安排，根本没有固定时段。

A warped tour. So there's this big blow up thing in the middle of the stage, and you you didn't know when you what time you were playing until that morning, every day, 10:30 in the morning. There was no set set times on warped tour.

天啊。

Jesus Christ.

比如你在密尔沃基可能是晚上8点演出，第二天到芝加哥就变成

So if you're in Milwaukee, like, you might play at 8PM, and the next day you're in Chicago and you play

上午11:45。所以我们经常睡眼惺忪地赶场，

it in 11:45AM. So We were woken up a lot going year on

凌晨四点被叫醒时简直想骂娘。巡演最后那天，我们得知演出时间后去看充气时刻表，发现和The Used撞档期，当时就想：完蛋，这下没戏了。

in forty, and we're like, shit. A lot. So that particular day was the final day of the tour, and we get told when we're playing, and then we go look at the blow up the blow up thing. And The Used is playing during us, and I'm like, well, there there's that. You know, we're fucked.

就像，没人会看我们演出。结果我们上台时，台下有两三千人。

Like, no one's gonna watch us play. And we got on stage, and there was two or 3,000 people.

就在平板卡车前面。

Like In front of the flat truck.

在平板卡车前看我们表演。因为Chasing Safety乐队——我们当时完全不知道——他们用了这个词（我讨厌这个词，你现在也说了），我更加反感了。就像...爆红了。嗯。

In front of the flat truck to see us play. Because chasing safety, unbeknownst to us, had had I hate this word, and you said it now. I hate it worse. Like, blown up. Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

但当时没人有手机能记录

But no one had a phone to be able to keep

没错。根本没办法，完全无法预料。那年秋天我们和Stretch Armstrong乐队巡演，每天要演两场。来看演出的人实在太多了。

it No. There was no way there was no there was no way to know. And then that that and then that fall, we toured with a band called Stretch Armstrong, and we had to play twice every day. So many people showed up to the shows.

所以你们加演日场来应对

So you did a matinee to try and

人潮？

keep up?

不，不是的。我们根本不知道，因为数据统计一团糟，而且没有手机。我们到800人容量的场地演出，外面还站着900人进不来。

No. No. No. We didn't we wouldn't know because, again, the metrics were so messed up, and there was no phones. So we'd show up at a 800 capacity club, and we'd play, and there'd be 900 people outside still.

所以我们干脆返场重演。甚至一半时候都不知道有没有报酬。对，就是直接再来一遍。就在那期间，我开始出现...开始出现胸痛。

And so we would just go run it back. I don't even know if we got paid for it half the time. Yeah. It was just we would just run it, do it again. And in the middle of that, I started having I started having chest pains.

就像我之前也稍微经历过的那样，像是灼烧般的尖锐疼痛，嗯哼。胸口疼。我的手会发麻，下巴也疼，还会感到非常恶心。有几天在巡演途中，我不知道自己能不能撑下去，但我总是硬撑着继续表演？与此同时，我每隔两天就得跑一趟医院。

Like and I had experienced them a little before, like searing sharp, like Mhmm. Chest pains. And my hand would go numb, and my jaw hurt, and I would get real nauseous. And there was days on that door, I don't know if I can I don't know if I can and I would always muscle through it and just play? Meanwhile, I'm going to the hospital every third day.

我心脏病发作了。我心脏病发作了。我会哭着走进去说，我心脏病发作了。而他们会说，你才21岁，不可能心脏病发作。

I'm having a heart attack. I'm having a heart attack. I would go up walk in crying and saying, I'm having a heart attack. And they would go, you're 21 years old. You're not having a heart attack.

你们得查——我得搞清楚——你们得做检查，比如验血和查肌钙蛋白水平。这些术语我都懂，因为我被检查过无数次。我这辈子可能做过300次心电图了。知道吗？我需要做心电图。

You gotta find I gotta find out you gotta do the work, you know, any blood work and the metroponin levels. And I know the jargon because I've done it to me. I probably had 300 EKGs in my lifetime. You know? I need an EKG.

我需要查肌钙蛋白。懂吗？有些日子我记得暖场乐队的人，特别是有个叫克里斯的家伙对我说，这都是你脑子里想的。我就想，怎么可能？我明明能感觉到。

I need a retroponin. You know? And there was days where I remember the opening band one day, particularly this guy, Chris, telling me, like, this is just in your head. And I'm like, how? I feel it.

这是真实的。我能感觉到。这是真的。随着乐队越来越出名，这些年情况逐渐恶化。直到2010年2月，我退出了。

It's real. I feel it. It's real. And it got progressively worse through the years since the band got more popular. And in 02/2010, I quit.

当时我找了个借口——那时候我们都很虔诚——我说什么'要为上帝做点别的事'。但真相是，我始终没处理好自己的神经系统和焦虑问题。如果今天你拿枪指着我的头问原因——

And I put it under the guise of, like at the time, we were all pretty religious. And I put it under the guise of, like, I I gotta, you know, I gotta do something else for God. I gotta you know? And the reality was I just didn't deal with my nervous system and my anxiety. And if you ask me today, gun to head, like, what caused it?

知道吗，到底是什么引发的？我有不少推测，但并没有确切的...有哪些推测？我成长在一个极度虔诚的基督教家庭，就像他刚才提到的，我家人都这么说话。我在佐治亚州长大，家里人说话都这样。从小到大我听到的全是关于疾病的事，直到现在还是。

You know, what caused the the onset of it? I have a bunch of theories, but I don't really have an What are the theories? I grew up in a super, super Christian home, like he said a little bit ago, and my family talked like this. I grew up in the you know, my family's from Georgia, and they talk like this. And all I ever heard growing up was about medical things to this day.

比如我母亲到现在——要是我现在打电话给她（我爱我母亲，我不想...不想让她听到这个觉得...妈，你把我害惨了）。

Like, my mother to this day. If I call my mom right now, right now, and I love my mother, and I'm not I don't I don't I don't want this to come off if she hears this, mom, you fucked me.

我们爱你，妈妈。

We love you, mom.

是啊。但她会...嗯，那个谁，教会里的'姐妹'，她们都互相称呼姐妹某某，比如吉娜姐妹。知道吗？吉娜姐妹的主动脉出了问题。你信吗？你相信吗？

Yeah. But she she would, yeah, so and so, you know, sister in the churches, they call you sister whoever, sister Gina, whatever. You know, sister Gina's got like a they had to do something to her aorta. Do you believe that? Do believe that?

从小到大，一直如此。整个成长过程都是这样。我父亲有个情妇，18岁那年我撞见他们在一起，就把他赶出了家门。我想这大概也助长了我的问题。而且我父母都有焦虑倾向。

And growing up, the whole time, it was like that. It was like that the whole time. And my parents my dad had a mistress, and I caught him with his mistress and kicked him out of my house when I was 18. I think that probably aids and abets to it. And both of my parents had this anxious disposition as well.

这种健康焦虑。这种对健康的焦虑倾向。

This health anxiety. This health anxiety disposition.

伴随了我一生。直到今天都是如此。如果我此刻打电话给我妈，克里斯，我敢保证她会跟我聊她的身体状况。真的，就像我知道自己名字一样确定。

Fed into you My whole life. My whole life to this day. If I call my mom right now, I promise Chris she would tell me something about her physical body. I promise. Like like, I know my name.

她肯定会这么说，这种观念就这样植入我脑海。再加上各种压力，比如不止一场演出票售罄，还有另一场也卖光了。我们能拿到报酬吗？我不知道。蒂姆和我是截然不同的人，虽然某些方面很相似，但他是我认识最朋克的人。

Like, she would say so it was put into me that way, and then the pressures of, oh, there's not only one show that's sold out. There's another one that's sold out. Are we getting paid? I don't know. And Tim Tim and I are very different, and we're very alike in some ways, but we're very different, and Tim is the most punk rock person I know.

我是说，我们什么都敢做。比如街上如果有500个人，问'你们能表演吗？'，他会立刻答应'当然，没问题'。

I mean, like, we'll do anything. Like, if there was 500 people out in the street, and you were like, can you guys play? He'd be like, Yeah. For sure. Yep.

而我就很难适应这种状态。现在我在学着变得更随性些，但当时完全做不到。这种压力不断累积。老实说——虽然我觉得这种访谈形式不太适合谈这个——直到今天我仍在与之抗争。

And I'm just I have a hard time with that. I'm getting better with that, you know, by being able to be more, you know, spontaneous. And but at the time, I wasn't. And it aided me and aided me and aided me. And if I'm honest with you, which I think this format doesn't work and our conversation doesn't work, I deal with it today.

虽然没当年那么严重，但每天都要面对。说实话，有时候真的很可怕。必须向你坦白这些让我很痛苦，因为我是你节目的忠实观众，也喜欢节目里的很多嘉宾。

Not to the extent that I did then, but something I deal with every day. And it's really difficult and, to be honest, like, it's scary sometimes. You know? The fact that I have to say this to you, I hate a lot. Because I'm a fan of your show, and I'm a fan of a lot of the people on your show.

所以坐在这里讲述自己的生活和挣扎，感觉就像那些Spotify数据——我明明想听《现代智慧》，结果却在谈论这个。

So to come here and say what I'm saying about my own life and my struggles, it feels like a little bit like those Spotify numbers where I'm like, I want modern wisdom, and I'm talking about this.

别这么想。我很感谢你的坦诚。那段经历一定很难熬。年少成名压力太大，还要面对...这明明是我的梦想啊。

Well, don't forget. Mean, I appreciate you saying that. And that must have been hard to deal with. That's tough to be a young kid thrust into the limelight and to be fuck. Like, this is my dream.

是啊。这是我艺术表达的出口。结果我的神经系统却在背叛我。太糟了。这本该是我大展拳脚的机会。

Yeah. It's my artistic outlet. And, like, my fucking nervous system is betraying me. Hate. Like, this is my shot.

这就是我的感受。没错。我他妈的感觉自己就像刘易斯·卡帕尔迪一样。仿佛，这就是我梦寐以求的一切。我站在格拉斯顿伯里，世界上最大的音乐节舞台上。

This is my thing. Yeah. And my fucking I'm that must be what it feels like to be Lewis Capaldi. It's like, I've this is what everything I've ever dreamed of. I'm on Glass Stonbury, the biggest festival in the world.

满眼的旗帜。是啊兄弟。可我他妈的身体却在背叛我，所以真抱歉让你经历这些。

All the flags. Yeah, man. Yeah. And my fucking body is betraying me, so I'm sorry that you went through them, man.

是啊。真的不...谢谢你这么说。很艰难。这件事...其实我一直在想，谈到刘易斯时也是，我所有与心理健康、神经系统斗争的历程，都直接间接地影响到了他。

Yeah. That's really No. Thank you for saying that. Tough. It's something that and on the flip side, I was thinking about this the whole time talking about Lewis too, is all the struggles that I've been through with my mental health and my nervous system and the whole thing, it directly has affected him, like, indirectly and directly.

这让我感到真实的愧疚，沉重的负罪感。因为仔细想想，比如我离开时——我从没说过——我离开后他们的事业明显下滑，他们在我离开后做了张专辑...确实，他们的事业大幅下滑，我知道这直接与我离开有关。

And that is something that I feel actual guilt for, heavy guilt. Because if I really think about it, like, when I left I've never said this. When I left, there was a large decline in their they did a record without me when I Yeah. And there was a large decline in their career. And I know that was directly correlated to me leaving.

而我离开的原因，用大白话说就是搞不定自己的生活。你懂吗？

And I left because I couldn't, in layman's terms, get my shit together. You know?

很遗憾发生这些。谢谢你分享。

I'm sorry that happened. Thank you.

嗯。

Yeah.

但这又回到那个问题，你怎么能在相处二十三年后，还觉得能和母亲保持亲密？明白我意思吗？

But that kinda goes back to, like, how do you do that for twenty three years and then, like, feel like you can be close with, like, your mom? You know?

让我去接孩子们吧。

Let me pick the kids up.

没错。正是这种经历...我很感激。庆幸我和妻子永远不会经历我们曾经的困境。但一旦经历过或仍在处理，它确实会在大脑中形成某种联结——不是更好或更糟，不是更近或更远，就是种独特的羁绊。

Yeah. That exact that exact thing is like they're and I'm grateful for it. I'm I'm glad that me and my wife will never have stuff like what we've been through. But once you go through it or still deal with it, it does do something to a bond in your brain that it is is not better or worse or closer or more distant. It is just an it's a unique bond.

这是

It's

不，这就是我之前的意思。这是一种不同类型的亲密关系。

not That's what I meant about it. It's it's a different type of intimacy.

是啊。

Yeah.

这不是兄弟情谊。然后通过巡演又产生了其他关系。

It's not brotherhood. Then other ones through tour.

对。这不像兄弟情谊，不是家人，不是挚友，也不是商业伙伴。

Yeah. It's, like, not brotherhood. It's not family. It's not best friends. It's not business partners.

而是所有这些关系的混合体，时时刻刻都是如此，这很有趣。

It's, like, all of it all the time, which is interesting.

那样的话...我是说...是啊。

And that would And I mean Yeah.

我经常和他聊他的事。比如我们最后一次争吵是在欧洲，当时我们在喝可能是世界上最古老的啤酒之类的，而那趟巡演期间你去了医院三次。我直接告诉他我不知道...

I talked to him a lot about his stuff. Like, I mean, the last fight we got into was in Europe. We were having, like, the oldest beer or something, and you were you were going to the hospital, like, three times that tour. And I told him straight up I don't know

具体是什么病症。是某种...

what the ailment was. It was some

我只是跟他说：老兄，等这一切结束时你会有很多遗憾，因为你要么是主动选择，要么是被迫陷入这种状态——我分不清是哪一种，毕竟我不是你。有时候感觉这两种状态会交替出现，我们都会这样。但在这个我们都没主动选择的随机职业生涯中，发生了这么美好的事情，你却只是痛苦地困在其中，而不是去酒吧和兄弟们喝几杯...

I just told him, like, dude, you're going to have a lot of regrets at the end of this whole thing because you're you're either choosing to or being captured by, I don't know which because I'm not in your head, and sometimes it feels like it swings different ways as we all do. But to have this beautiful kind of thing happen in this random career that none of us asked for, and for you to just be sitting in it in misery rather than going to the pub and grabbing pints with the boys or

我们当时在喝史上最古老的啤酒。突然冒出来。史上最古老的配方。就在慕尼黑的某个地方。

We were drinking the oldest beer ever made. Popping out. Recipe ever made. Somewhere in Munich.

是啊。天啊。但他当时处于一种状态，我们也都陷入了一种狂躁的漩涡。我们都在喝酒。而我喝酒时，本来就是个说话非常直截了当的人。

Yeah. Jesus Christ. But he was in a in a he was in a state, and I would and we were all in A manic spiral. And we were all drinking. So when I drink, I I I'm a very direct talker anyway.

不像他，我来自纽约，我们纽约家人都是——你他妈到底在说什么？有话直说。充满爱意，但非常直接。所以我就像...

Unlike him, I'm from New York, and my New York family is like, say what what the fuck you on about? Like, say what you need to say. Very loving, but just very direct. So I just like One

事情是通过争论解决的。

thing is done through argumentation.

对。我当时就说，等这一切结束你会后悔的，因为你在浪费这个机会。懂吗？然后他气疯了。我们就都散了。

Yeah. And I was just like, you're just gonna you're gonna you're gonna have a lot of regrets when all this is over because you're wasting this thing. You know? And he got really mad. We all disbanded.

他说得不一样。然后他来了...我说什么来着？

He said it differently. And he came What did I what did I say?

我必须说这个。对不起，克里斯。对不起。

I have to say this. I'm sorry, Chris. I'm sorry.

不。我...我不是...当你死的时候，

No. I I'm not When you die,

你在这个环节最后说——这很有播客礼仪——你说当你死的时候，你会后悔很多事情。好了，我说出来了。

I You say at the end of this thing, which is very podcast etiquette y, you say when you die, you will regret so many things. There. I said it.

在你临终床上。

On your deathbed.

是的。在你临终时。

Yes. On your deathbed.

没错。因为那时你才能获得全面的视角和反思。目标不是去看史蒂夫·乔布斯最后写的十件事——钱不重要，我真希望当初多陪陪家人。

Yeah. Because that's that's when you get full perspective and reflection. And the goal is not to look at, like, Steve Jobs' last 10 things he wrote. Money doesn't matter. I wish I would've spent more time with my family.

就像你说的这些无法传授的教训，我们现在就在经历这些，兄弟。我们曾拥有过，又失去过。你离开过，又回来了。

To your point, these unteachable lessons, it's like, we're being taught these lessons now, man. Like, we've had this. We've lost it. You left. You're back.

我们都经历过好的、坏的、最辉煌的、最卑微的，曾是世界上最风光的人。这次巡演惨败，我们一分钱没赚到。这些我们都经历过了。所以还能有多少教训要学？按他的话说，这不是我能选择的。

Like, we all have done the good, the bad, the biggest, the smallest, biggest man in the world. This tour is eating shit, and we're making no money. We've done all of it now. So it's like how many more lessons are there left to learn? And to his point, he's like, I don't choose.

它就是发生了。就像那个有抽动症的家伙，你现在就住在这种状态里了吗？有什么是你能做或不能做的吗？具体到这件事，我觉得他的情况确实直接影响我们，但说实话，我更像是可以屏蔽他。

It just happens. Yeah. And kind of like, you know, the dude with the tic, like, can is it just do you just live here now? And is there anything you can or can't do? And, yeah, as far as that goes, like, I think his his stuff specifically does directly affect us, but I think if I'm being honest, it's more like I can tune him out.

如果他要去医院，在这段时间或这集节目里，我只需要把你当成同事——只要你能上台表演一小时，我们赚到钱，有足够油钱赶到下一场，其他23小时你可以在自己铺位上崩溃。这不友爱也不真实，但在那种状态下你必须找到应对方式。他应对不了，我也应对不了。

If he's going to the hospital, I'm like, if for this period or episode, I just need to reduce you to a coworker, as long as you get on stage for the hour I need you and we make our money and we can have enough gas in the tank to get to the next show, you can melt down for the other twenty three hours by yourself in your bunk. You know? And that's not loving or true, but you have to, in those states, figure out a way to cope. He can't cope. I can't cope.

我们能怎么办？取消整个巡演？不行。于是你开始设置这些防护机制，有时它们并不健康。我们经历了这么多之后，回到家看到有人为小事烦恼，就会想：你这算什么糟糕日子？

What are we gonna do? Blow up the whole tour? No. So you then start putting in these protections, and sometimes they're not healthy. And so we've been through, again, so much that it's it's kinda like you go home and somebody's having a bad day, and it's like, what are you on about?

你这辈子都没真正糟糕过。明白吗？你从未经历过我们遭遇的某些事。所以我不能指望你有相同视角，但当你的视角被彻底颠覆时，确实很难调整。

Like, you haven't had a bad day in your life. You know? You've you've never been through certain things that we have. Therefore, I can't expect you to have the same perspective, but it's hard when your perspective gets shift shifted so much.

我想你曾多次用从战场归来的士兵举例，

I imagine you've used a couple of times sort of soldiers coming back from war as a an example, and

这个例子不算糟。我并不是要...

that's not terrible example. I'm not trying to

教堂见。该死的，今天Jocko Willink居然出门了。就是那个参与拉马迪战役的家伙。哦，对。他是海豹突击队的。

church up. Fucking people like, I had Jocker Willink went out today. Like, that was the guy that did the battle of Ramadi. Oh, yeah. So he's a navy seal.

今天看到这个消息了。

Saw that go up today.

没错。他可能是我这辈子见过最可怕的人之一。但从实际危险程度来说能比吗？不能。但从情绪冲击的强度来看呢？

Yeah. Who is maybe one of the scariest men I've ever seen in my entire life. But is it comparable in terms of kinetic danger? No. Is it comparable in terms of emotional intensive in intensity?

大概可以。我很感谢你能这样敞开心扉——有个小观点可能用得上。插句题外话，你可能听我提过Element，老实说我离不开它。过去三年里，我每天早晨都是从Element开始的。

Yeah. Probably. And I would like, I really appreciate you opening up like that for one slight perspective that might be useful here. A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I'm frankly dependent on it. For the last three years, I've started my morning every single day with Element.

Element是种美味电解质冲饮，含有所需营养且无添加。每包便携装都有科学配比的钠钾镁，无糖无色素无人工成分。它能有效缓解肌肉痉挛疲劳，提升脑健康，调节食欲抑制渴望。简直就是魔法药水——三年来我每天清晨都用冰水冲调这个橙子口味，效果真实可感。最棒的是他们提供无限期无理由退款政策。

Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each grab and go stick pack contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing your brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. It's basically a magic elixir, and this orange flavor in a cold glass of water is how I've started every single day for over three years, and I can genuinely feel the difference when I take it versus when I don't. Best of all, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration.

你可以买来想试多久都行。不满意随时退款，连盒子都不用寄回。美国境内还免运费。现在通过描述区链接或访问drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom，首单就能免费获赠八种口味试喝装。

So you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they give you your money back, and you don't even need to return the box. Plus, they offer free shipping within The US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

我觉得人生中最深的羞耻，往往是你最自豪特质的阴暗面。嗯。所以我猜当你写唱片、混音、调试某个音色、创作新旋律新主歌新鼓点时，你的强迫症会转化为超高生产力——因为你能不断否定'还不够，再重来'。

Most of the things I think that your the the shames that you have in your life, the ones that are the worst that you have about yourself, if you look at them, they're usually the dark side of the stuff that you're the most proud of as well. Mhmm. So I have to assume that when it comes to writing a record or mastering a track or, like, dialing in a particular sound or working on the the new melody, the new lead, the new drums fill, whatever it might be, that that is an area where your obsessiveness gets deployed in a really productive manner because you're able to go, like, no. It's not there. It's not there.

我要再录一遍再录一遍再录一遍...看那该死的音轨时间线，60次100次200次...一直推到最完美。

I'm gonna play it again. I'm gonna play it again. I'm gonna play it again. You look at the fucking timeline, it's just like 60 takes, 100 takes, 200 takes to to Yeah. All the way down.

对。

Yeah.

噢，

Oh,

是啊。所以如果你想要那样，比如，你是否欣赏自己这一点？你在艺术形式中拥有这种精确度的事实？嗯。好吧。

yeah. So if you want that, like, do you appreciate that about yourself? The fact that you have this level of precision in your art form? Yeah. Okay.

那么，猜猜你要为此付出什么代价？为了在艺术形式中达到那种精确度，你必须付出的代价就是无法在其他领域关闭这种状态。你无法将其关闭。你无法在与伴侣相处时关闭它。如果你的伴侣让你感到不安全，你的神经系统就会反应，好吧。

Well, guess what the price is that you have to pay for that? The price that you have to pay in order to have that level of precision in your art form is that you don't get to switch it off in other areas. You don't get to turn that off. You don't get to turn it you're not gonna turn it off with your partner. If your partner makes you feel unsafe, like, your nervous system's gonna go, like, okay.

他们说了什么？为什么他们会说那样的话？那条短信结尾没有吻。那就是它的意思。反复思考，琢磨，沉迷。

What did they say? Why did they say that thing? There was no kiss at the end of that text. That's what that meant. Ruminate, think, obsess.

好吧。那你就不想要了。但当你写唱片时你又想要。选择吧。哦，你没得选。

Okay. You don't want it then. You do want it when you're writing a record. Choose. Oh, you don't get to choose.

确实没得选。那么我喜欢这点的什么？嗯，我喜欢我对细节的关注。我喜欢这个事实——这也是你们之间可以互相发现的东西，你会想，靠。比如亚伦的表现，他每天早上第一个到录音室。

You don't. So what do I love about this? Well, I love my attention to detail. I love the fact that and this is something as well that you can sort of find, I think, between each other where you go, fuck. Like, dude, the way that Aaron shows up, like, he's the first person in the studio in the morning.

他晚上最后一个离开。他不会妥协，不管是什么。对吧？无论你喜欢什么，那种痴迷都会体现在过程中。我他妈超爱他这点。

He's the last person out at night. He will not give at or whatever it is. Right? What however it is that you like, the the the obsessiveness sort of shows up in the process. Like, I really fucking love that about him.

如果他没有在其他领域需要对抗的心魔会不会更好？但如果关键时刻我们无法从他身上获得这种水准的表现，那岂不是彻底完蛋？

And would it be cool if he didn't have this, like like, demon that he's got to battle in other areas? But would it be fucking total dog shit if we didn't get this level of performance out of him when the rubber meets the road?

你知道我最害怕什么吗？抱歉。最让我害怕的是——我为这个找过很多治疗师。我吃过一堆药，和无数人聊过。但从来、从来没人这么说过。

You know what scares me the most? Sorry. What scares me the most and what I I've seen a lot of therapists for this stuff. And I've taken a bunch of pills for it, and I've talked to a million people about it. And nobody, nobody has ever said that.

首先真的很感谢你。但其次，他们总是说如果你做X、做Y、做Z，改变某个习惯，你就会好转，不再纠结健康症状之类的。从没人像你这样直说，朋友，这才是本质。把轮胎气打到最足，让我来做这件事。因为你完全正确。

It's always been so thank you, number one. But number two, it's always been you'll get better if like, you'll stop being obsessive about your health symptoms or whatever if if you do x, if you do y, if you do z, if you change this habit you have. No one's ever just said it like that, and that, my friend, is the essence of what it is. To pump your tires up as high as they'll go, let me do that. Because you're absolutely right.

而且听到这个很可怕——知道那种药、那次谈话、那个方法解决不了问题，因为它是和另一个方面关联的。你懂我意思吗？

And it's scary to hear to know that, like, that pill, that conversation, that thing isn't gonna fix it because it's it's connected in that other way. You know what I'm saying?

是啊。嗯，这就是你的本质，老兄。我觉得为什么？大部分都存在于抗拒中。你知道，如果你曾有过真正挣扎的事情，而我这十二个月过得相当艰难。

Yeah. Well, it's who you are, dude. It's I I think Why? So much of it is in the resistance. You know, if you ever have something that you're really struggling with, and I've had a I've had a rough twelve months.

天啊。过去十二个月里我屡遭打击。其中大概20%、30%是你正在应对的事情，而绝大部分是对发生之事的抗拒。不该是这样的。我不希望事情变成这样。

Jesus Christ. I've been kicked in the nuts so many times over the last twelve months. And maybe 20% of it, 30% of it is, like, what you're dealing with, and the vast majority of it is the resistance to the thing happening. It shouldn't be this way. I don't want it to be this way.

对。这不是它应有的样子，要是能改变就好了。这是我的错。这是别人的错。是什么导致的？

Yeah. This isn't what it would like, if only it could be different. This is my fault. This is someone else's fault. What caused it?

是什么造成的？对。对。没错。我该如何改变它？

What did it? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. How can I change it?

我接下来能做什么？我在浪费生命。我在自我毁灭。我在做这件事。我做不了这件事。

What can I do moving forward? I'm wasting my life. I'm killing myself. I'm doing this thing. I can't do this thing.

就像，所有这些。对吧？首先是焦虑情绪。然后是对焦虑的怨恨。接着是对焦虑怨恨的苦涩感。

Like, all of that. Right? You have the first emotion, anxiety. Then you have resentment at your anxiety. Then you have bitterness about your resentment about your anxiety.

然后你会对关于焦虑怨恨的苦涩感到沮丧。你陷入这种二阶情绪的无限倒退。马克·曼森称之为元情绪。就像你无法控制第一个情绪，但你可以选择如何对待第二个。问题在于，哦，我有选择权。

And then you have frustration about your bitterness about your resentment about your anxiety. You have this infinite regress of second order emotions. Mark Manson calls them meta emotions. It's like you don't get to control the first one, but you do have choice over the second one. And the problem with that is, oh, I have choice over it.

这意味着如果我不控制我的元情绪，我就是不好的。如果有人告诉你'当你...时就会好起来'，那是在否定你。他们在说现在的你不够好。当你那样时，你更不像自己，你需要解决正在发生的事，因为你的行为让我感到不适。哎呀。

That means that I am bad if I don't control my meta emotions. And if someone says you'll get better when, that's a denial of you. That's them saying you are not enough as who you are. And when you're that way, you're less you, and you need to fix the thing that's happening because your behavior makes me feel uncomfortable. Yikes.

你那样让我不舒服。你的不安让我不安，所以我需要你让自己好起来，这样我也能好起来。这完全否定了你正在经历的一切，这很残酷，老兄。所以我，再次，我很抱歉你...不。

You being that makes me feel uncomfortable. You not being okay makes me not okay, so I need you to make yourself okay so that I can be okay now too. And that's just a denial of whatever it is that you're going through, and that's rough, man. So I'm, again, I'm I'm sorry that you've No.

谢谢你这么说。我觉得我从未听人这样表述过，而我始终有这种感觉。我从未听过这样的说法，因为...

Thanks for saying that. I think that I've never heard it put that way, and I've always felt that way. And I've never heard it put like that because

但就是这样。我们乐队经常讨论这个话题。比如，有人会问，你们如何在巡演中保持忠诚？或者如何保持自律？其实归根结底就是这样。

But that is it. It it's it's more We talk about that a lot as a band. Like, even, like, with people who are like, how do you stay faithful on the the road? Or how do you stay diligent or not diligent? And it it's it's just that.

我们都是性欲生物。我无法控制第一反应。嗯哼，懂吗？如果看到个漂亮姑娘，我不会——

It's like we're all sexual beings. I can't change the first thought. Mhmm. You know? If there's a really pretty girl somewhere, I'm not gonna

不是刻意去注意的。对。

Not for the notice. Yeah.

然后就会想，好吧。我不是在寻找这个。我毫无兴趣，但无法抑制最初的火花。我要么用沙子扑灭它，要么浇上汽油。

She's then it's like, great. That I'm not looking for it. I have no interest, but I can't change that first spark. And I'm gonna throw sand on it, or I'm gonna throw gasoline on it.

有个很酷的故事。进化心理学奠基人大卫·巴斯，他在德州大学任教。他写了本《欲望的演化》，书中解释男性大脑有个区域，当我们看到性感事物时会给予奖励。比如男人会乐呵呵地看着像胸部的石头说'还挺性感'。

There's a really cool story. David Bus, grandfather of evolutionary psychology, he's here at University of Texas. And he wrote a book called The Evolution of Desire. And in it, he explains how men have an area of our brains which give us reward if we look at something that's sexual. Like, guys will happily look at a pair of rocks that look like boobs and be like, like, kinda fucking hot.

有读者来信说：'巴斯博士，感谢您挽救了我的婚姻。我原本婚姻幸福，爱妻子爱孩子，却发现自己仍会被其他女性吸引。'

And this guy wrote in, and he said, doctor Buss, I just wanna thank you for saving my marriage because I was finding I'm happily married. I love my wife. I love my kids. I was happily married, but I found myself, like, finding other women attractive.

我还以为是对伴侣不满——

And I thought I was unhappy with my partner and

我以为自己有问题，觉得自己不正常。而你的书告诉我：不，看到性感女性觉得'她真火辣'很正常，就像觉得'那片云灰蒙蒙的'一样自然。

something I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought there was something broken, and your book told me that, no. Like, it's fine for me to see a hot woman and be like, that's a hot woman. In the same way, it's like, those clouds look, you know, gray or what it's a thing. Yeah.

但你会告诉妻子吗？大概不会。比如'亲爱的，外面有朵超美的云'——可以。

And I is it the thing that you tell your wife? Probably not. It's like, hey, honey. There's a beautiful cloud outside. Like, yes.

'亲爱的，有个辣妹拉丁裔走过'——不行。但没错，内心独白而已。

Hey, honey. There's, a hot Latina walking past. No. But Yeah. The inside voice.

是的。但你在其中感受到的那种动态关系，我认为正是我们讨论的重点之一。对，就像我有这个东西，它有好的一面。

Yeah. But the sense that you have with that and that same dynamic there, I think, is a good part of what we're talking about here. Yeah. It's like, I have this thing. There's some good in it.

也有不好的一面。这就是我。如果我坦然接受会怎样？没错。如果我不试图改变它又会怎样？

There's some bad in it. It is me. What happens if I'm, like, just okay with that? Yeah. What happens if I'm not trying to fix it?

就把它搁在架子上，随它去吧。

Just put it on a shelf and let it be there.

这只是其中的一部分。

It's just a part of it.

就像这样，它就在这里。我们不会否认它，但也不会加剧它。它就是存在而已。

It's just like, here it is. We're not gonna deny it. We're also not going to exacerbate it. It just is.

过去几年最让我着迷的问题之一，就是人们为了成为被仰慕的对象所付出的代价。埃隆·马斯克两年前和莱克斯·弗里德曼做了一期节目，莱克斯问他'你真实状态如何'之类的问题。

I mean, I'm the question that I've been the most fascinated with over the last few years, one of them has been the price that people pay to be someone that you admire. And Elon Musk, he does this episode with Lex Friedman a couple of years ago, and Lex asks him some question along the lines of, like, how are you really or something.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

我知道。埃隆说：我懂你的意思。我的大脑就像风暴。人们以为他们想成为我。

I know. Elon says I know what you're talking about. My mind is a storm. Storm. People think they want to be me.

他们根本不想成为我。他们不知道。他们不明白。要知道，这可是世界首富。去看看他的传记。

They don't want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. You know, like, this is the richest guy in the world. Read the read the biography that was done on him.

书里写到某天他的运营总监发现他躺在办公室地上，盯着天花板无法入睡。他们催促他：'你得来参加股东会议'。他却说：'我不去，我做不到，我站都站不起来'。

And it's like, there was this day where his COO found him laid down in his office just, like, staring at the ceiling, unable to sleep next to his desk. Yeah. They're like, you need to come and do this shareholder meeting. He's like, I'm not doing it. I can't I can't I can't stand up.

他就说，不行。你必须来参加这个会议。就像是特斯拉快要撑不下去了，我们需要筹集更多资金，或者安抚股东，总之得做点什么。他说，我站都站不起来。他就说，不行。

He's like, no. You need to come and do this meeting. Like, it was one of those Tesla's about to go under, and we need to raise more money or fix the shareholders or do whatever. He's like, I can't I can't stand up. He's like, no.

你必须来。花了十五分钟，不停地哄啊哄啊哄。最后总算把他劝起来了。就像，好吧。你想成为埃隆·马斯克吗？

You need to. It took fifteen minutes, like, coaxing coaxing coaxing coaxing coaxing. Finally get him up. It's like, alright. Do you wanna be Elon Musk?

不。你他妈真想成为那种人吗？因为这就是成为埃隆·马斯克必须付出的代价。不幸的是，兄弟，这也是成为亚伦·吉莱斯皮必须付出的代价。成为你自己。

No. Do want to fucking be that guy? Because that's the price that you need to pay to be Elon Musk. And, unfortunately, man, that's the price that you need to pay to be Aaron Gillespie. Like, to be you.

对。这就是你必须付出的代价。你他妈真想这么做吗？就像，你还得处理其他破事。

Yeah. That's the price that you need to pay. You wanna fucking do the you wanna do that? Like, you gotta deal with the other thing too.

这这这简直太令人震惊了，听到有人承认这一点。你平时根本听不到这种话。在康复过程中你听不到。朋友不会说，专业人士也不会说。你听到的，就像我二十分钟前说的，如果你做x，就会得到y。

It's it's it's just so it's staggering it's staggering to hear an acknowledgment of that. You just don't you don't hear that. You don't hear that when you're rehabbing through it. Not from your friends, not from professionals. You you hear, like I said before, twenty minutes ago, if you do x, you'll get y.

你懂我意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我没有任何动机，我认为这甚至是那些最善意的家伙——包括你乐队成员——的问题所在，他们希望你变好是因为

I don't have any incentive, and I think that that's one of the problems that even the best meaning guys, even the guys in your band, they want you to get better because

我理解。我没有我没有我没有酸葡萄心理。不是的。

And I understand it. I'm not I'm not I'm not sour grapes about it. No.

这这这出发点是好的。但是，乔·哈德森的《成就的艺术》在这方面给了我他妈超多启发，他提出了一个框架：观点、脆弱性、公正、同理心和惊奇。尤其是那种敞开心扉的沟通方式。公正性特别有意思，就是不带改变目的陪伴某人。公正性。

It's it's it's it comes from a really well meaning place. But, yeah, this is an area Joe Hudson, does the art of accomplishment, has taught me so fucking much about this, and he has a a framework of view, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder. And that's, like, heart opening heart opening communication, especially. And impartiality is a really interesting one, which is sitting with somebody without wanting to change them. Impartiality.

我觉得很多时候看到别人遭遇困境时，我们都想帮忙。当然想帮忙。这难道不是好事吗？难道不是充满同理心和关怀的行为吗？当然是。

And I think a lot of the time when we see somebody going through something difficult, we wanna help them. Of course, you wanna help them. Is that not the good thing to do? Is that not the empathetic, caring thing to do? Of course it is.

关心你的朋友。你看到他们痛苦，想要解决问题。但那种解决方式其实是在否定他们的真实感受。好像在说：你现在这样不行，

Care about your friend. You see them in pain. You wanna fix it. It's like, but in that fixing is a denial of what they're experiencing. You aren't right as you are.

你现在的状态不够好。这样不行，你需要改变。很多时候，这其实是在转移你自己的不适——你的痛苦让我不舒服，请停止痛苦好让我重新好受些。

You're not good enough as you are. This isn't okay. You need to change. And a lot of the time, that is a transference of you saying, your discomfort is making me uncomfortable. Stop your discomfort so that I can feel okay again.

这就是共生依赖的根源。如果你看到某人时想着'你不好我就不好'，再延伸下去...你们都有这种体验吧？就像Jimmy Carr说的那个段子——他讲喜剧演员和观众关系时说：'如果你们不爱我，我就不爱我自己'。

And that's where codependency comes from. You know? If if if you see somebody and you think, I'm not okay if you're not okay. And roll that forward, and all of you guys have got this, which is Yeah. I'm not what's the the Jimmy Carrism, which is as he's talking about comedians' relationships with audiences, he says, if you don't love me, I don't love me.

对...我觉得可能更复杂些。但本质上确实如此。我是说...

Yeah. Yeah. I don't I I I think it's maybe more complicated than that. But, yeah, at at its essence, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think

远比这个复杂得多。

It's significantly more complicated than that.

对，我觉得不止是细微差别，而是很深刻。但总体而言，关键是要在无法达成共识时找到共同点，并接受事情本就不完美。

Yeah. I I would argue not even just nuance, but, yeah, it's deep. But, yeah, it's like, I think I think overall, it's just a matter of trying to find common ground where you can't and just being okay with things not being okay.

是的。

Yes.

这很难，但总比'不解决问题就不出这个房间'好。Tim你必须这样，不改正我们就不走——虽然没人真这么说，但这是另一个极端。如果不是这种，就是朝那个方向发展。

And that's that's hard, but it's not as hard as we're not leaving this room till you're fixed. You know, Tim, you're doing this. We're not leaving this room till you stop doing this. Like, that those ultimatums, which don't happen, but I'm saying that's the other side of that. If it's not this, then it's on its way to be that.

嗯...我觉得现在很多东西都碎片化了，连真相是什么都难以辨别，懂吗？

Mhmm. And I think there's a lot of, like, I don't even know. Like, everything's so bite sized now. It's, like, hard to even know what, like, truth is anymore. You know?

说得好。音乐也一样。音乐和斯多葛主义本质上相同——那些所谓的斯多葛学派每天发条箴言，就像撕页圣经日历，却丢失了上下文。

That's a good point. Like, music, same thing. Like, music and stoicism, I think, are like the same thing in the sense that, like, you have these stoics, quote unquote, that just put up like a little blurb, like a Bible verse a day tearaway calendar. Uh-huh. And you're missing the context.

知道吗？Audible上有大约十四小时马可·奥勒留的内容，你只需挑出最喜欢的箴言片段分享出来，大家就会纷纷感叹'天啊这正是我需要的'。但有些话比如'若不能带来内心平静，就果断放手'，若脱离上下文背景，可能导致友谊破裂、关系终结，仅仅因为'这无法让我平静'。

You know? There's like fourteen hours of Marcus Aurelius on Audible, and then you pick out like your favorite scripture and just pop it out, and everyone's like this. You don't you don't know how much I needed this. And it's like something like, if it doesn't bring you peace, be confident enough to walk away. That without the surrounding context results in friendships dissolving, people walking away from relationships, because this just isn't bringing me peace.

音乐也是如此，现在所有东西都像抖音短视频那样碎片化。没人听完整专辑了，我们过去制作的专辑曲目都是精心编排的1到12首连贯作品。

And it's like music, all of those things are just kind of going in that way, where it's like TikTok moments. Nobody listens to albums anymore. We used to write albums that were like one through 12.

噢，我们都不听

Oh, we don't listen

完整歌曲了。以前我们会刻意把某首歌安排为专辑第五首，现在全是瀑布式单曲。瀑布式斯多葛主义，一个接一个爆款。

to songs anymore. We would literally put this song as the fifth song on purpose in a linear sense, and now it's waterfall singles. It's waterfall stoicism. It's pop pop pop pop pop.

瀑布式斯多葛主义这说法挺有意思。

Waterfall stoicism's a funny way to put it.

是啊。我觉得这未必全是好事，虽然不确定是否弊大于利，但确实造成更多困惑而非帮助。就像你提到艾伦的例子，宏观来看我完全同意你的观点，我们多次讨论的内容我也认同，但现实远比那复杂得多。所有事情都是如此。

Yeah. And it's I think it does more I I don't think it's all net positive, I'd say. I don't know if it does more bad than good, but I think it does a lot more confusing, like confusing than it does helping. Because even to your point with Aaron, it's like, if you really zoom out, like everything you said I agree with, and you know, a lot of the talks we've had I agree with, but it's so much more complicated than that. Everything is.

就像生活的十面骰子。不只是'女人复杂男人复杂'的问题，而是整个他妈的旅程都无比复杂。可能是撞见父亲出轨的瞬间，

I think, yeah, just the the 10 sided die of life. It's it's not just, oh, women are complicated. Men are complicated. It's the whole fucking ride is so complex Yeah. That it could have been walking in on your dad.

可能是女友离开我的时刻，都是创伤反应。可能性太多了，深渊深不见底，就像你扔个手电筒下去，光亮瞬间就被黑暗吞噬。

It could be when my girlfriend left me. It's a trauma response. It could be anything. It's, like, so deep. Like, the cavern is, like you know, you could throw a flashlight into it, and it just disappears in throat.

我最近常思考的是：赢家往往是能化繁为简的人。举个例子，我最喜欢你节目中的一集是《干溪德韦恩》。

A lot lately about is is he who wins the one that uncomplicates it enough. And what I mean by that is, for an example, one of my favorite episodes of your show is is Dry Creek Dry Creek Dwayne.

对对对，我这周还给他发过消息。

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was texting him this week.

我喜爱这集的原因在于他的故事疯狂又精彩，但最打动我的部分在结尾处。我记得是你问了他这个问题，或者不知怎么我推测是你问的——'杜恩，对你来说什么是美好的一天？'他回答：'嗯，就像昨天，我醒来时对朋友的妻子有些不满，后来朋友回家，我抽了支雪茄，接着又抽了一支。'我当时心想，我并非要把他塑造成阿甘式的人物。

And what I love about that episode is his story is crazy, but my favorite part of the episode is at the very end. And I think you asked him this question, or for some somehow I I gathered that you asked him this question. What's a good day to you, Duane? And he said, well, you know, like yesterday, I woke up, I'm upset with my friend's wife, and then he came home, and I had a cigar, and then I had another one. And I'm like, if I could I'm not trying to make him sound like Forrest Gump.

我不是那个意思。对我而言那纯粹是宁静。当你问他'杜恩，怎样才算美好的一天'时，他描述的那天轮廓——我们讨论所有这些，你讲述那些时，我唯一想到的是：真正的赢家是能解耦两者的人。我不是说要变得对事物复杂性无知，对情感麻木，或对悲伤之类无感，而是说赢家是能将二者解耦的人。

That's not what I'm saying. That is pure peace to me. When outlines that day, when you ask him, what kind of day what's, you know, what's what's a good day to you, Duane? And he says all that, and then we're talking about all this. And you're saying that, and all I can think of is the one who wins is the one who can decouple I'm not saying to become ignorant of the complications of things and to become ignorant of the feelings of things and become ignorant of the idioms of grief or whatever, but is the one who wins the one who can decouple the two.

我抽了两支雪茄，和朋友的妻子聊天，然后在Longhorn之类的地方吃了晚饭——管他具体怎么说。你懂我意思吗？就像这样算是...

And I had two cigars and talked to my friend's wife, and we ate some supper at Longhorn or whatever the fuck he says. Do you know what I mean? Like, is that is that

嗯，我想象中

Well, I imagine

简单生活被严重低估了，我认为它比大多数事物都更有价值。

Simple life is is very is highly underrated, and I would argue more valuable than most things.

而实现这种生活正变得越来越困难。

And it's becoming harder and harder to do.

但这就是身为内省型深度思考者的诅咒之一。如果你是敏感的人，喜欢反思，总爱追问'为什么我会这样感觉？'——是的。这就像个无底洞，你会不断陷入自我剖析，虽然非常有趣。

But this is one of the curses, I think, of being a introspective, deep person. If you're someone that's sensitive, if you like to do the reflecting thing, if you like to ask the question why, why do I feel that way? Yeah. And it's like, wow. I mean, this is an endless portal that you can tumble into of of thinking about yourself, and it's it's very interesting.

我从追问'为什么'中获得巨大快感。做这个播客的初衷就是理解世界、理解自我与周遭环境。当初我不理解自己也不懂世界，所以想和九百五十号人聊聊——或许他们能给我答案。

I take an awful lot of pleasure from asking the why question. Like, the entire reason for this podcast is understand the world and, understand yourself and the world around you. That was that was what I wanted to do. I didn't understand myself, and I didn't understand the world. So I wanted to speak to 900 and fucking 50 people or whatever that maybe that would that would maybe be able to tell me.

但问题在于，就像你早前暗示的，存在某种质朴的美。就像那种'直接搞个五百人演出，开干'的简单粗暴——那种'别想太多'的哲学。

But the problem with that is that, as you alluded to earlier on, there's, like, a sort of beauty and simplicity. Like, the guy that's just like, yeah. Fucking 500 person show. Pull it. Yeah.

行动起来。那种不过度思考的状态，我猜更多是天性使然，而非后天强化的。不像你（艾伦）可能需要上万小时冥想才能达到。但如果重点不在于挖掘更多自我呢？

Let's go. Like, that don't overthink it thing Yeah. When arrived at, I have to assume, more naturally as opposed to, that must be part of your nature that you've maybe sort of enhanced a little bit as opposed to, Aaron, with you, to in order to get yourself to that stage, it's like ten thousand hours of meditation. But to think, okay. Well, what if it's not about unpacking more of my stuff?

如果它只是试图对正在发生的一切保持顺其自然的态度，学会放手呢？这也是我要再次为乐队成员点赞的原因之一。而且，我认为这档节目的听众群体往往是那些正经历孤独篇章的人。你知道，这些人苦于在周遭环境中找不到对话、激励和支持，所以只能通过倾听他人来获得这些。

What if it's trying to, like, just be okay with whatever's going on and just, like, the letting go? And that's one of the things, again, to give some props to the guys that are in bands. And, also, I think this show is the kind of thing that's listened to by people who are in a lonely chapter. You know, they're people who are struggling to find conversations, stimulus, support in their immediate surroundings. So they find it in other people who they can listen to.

他们拥有这种这种

They have this this sense of

通过他们间接体验的感觉。

vicariously through them.

归属感。妈的。就像，那个人经历了那些事，那是真实的伤害。我也经历过类似的事。天啊。

Of community. Like, fuck. Like, that's that that guy went through that stuff, and that's real harm. Like, I went through something like that. Holy shit.

我曾以为自己被健康焦虑击垮了，那是我第一次在网上听到有人谈论这个。我没有垮掉。这是人类共通困境的一部分，不是上天专门降给我的个人诅咒。

I thought I was broken by having health anxiety, and that's the first time I've ever heard anybody talk about it online. I'm not broken. Like, this is part of the human condition. This isn't a personal curse that's been fired at me from above. Yeah.

但问题是，孤独篇章的设计初衷就是孤独的，对吧？你的成长已经超越了旧友圈，但还不足以建立新圈子。你在努力做各种事，发展生活，改变思维方式和兴趣取向，却发现自己无人倾诉。这时只有两个选择——

And, you know, the problem with that is that the lonely chapter by design is lonely. Right? You're so developed that you don't resonate with your old set of friends, but you're not yet sufficiently developed that you've got your new set of friends. And you're trying to do all of these things, and you're developing your life, and you're changing the way that you think and the the stuff that you're into. And you're like, I don't know anyone that I can talk to about this, and I have two choices.

要么倒退回旧版本的自己（虽然明知不该这么做），要么继续寻找新群体。这就是乐队生活的可贵之处——永远有人相伴。就算你想独处，十六个人挤在双层巡演大巴上，暖场乐队在上层，前后休息室都挤满人，还有人不停嚷嚷...

I can either regress back and go to, like, this old version of me, which I know that I can't, shouldn't do this. But I where is the I haven't found my next tribe yet in that regard. And the problem that you have there, and, again, this is what I mean around the band, the one thing that you guys have is that there is always someone with you. And I imagine that if you want some introversion time, the fact that there is 16 people on a fucking tour bus, double decker tour bus, the support band's upstairs, and the front lounge is full, the back lounge is full, and someone's barking

总有人在某个角落。不

and someone's somewhere. Not

是啊。你会想：妈的，整天就是打包拆包赶飞机。但与人相处确实是摆脱孤独的绝佳方式。

Yeah. And you're like, fuck. Like, all I do is pack and unpack and get into go to airport, whatever it is. Yeah. But being around other people is a really lovely way to pull yourself out of that.

至少对我来说，就在昨天，我们签下了——我在这里购置了第一个办公录音室空间

And I think it's at least for me now, just yesterday, we signed I bought my first office studio space here

在

in

奥斯汀。

Austin.

哦，酷啊，兄弟。恭喜。

Oh, sick, dude. Congrats.

恭喜。那会非常特别。对我来说，是因为我已经耗尽——几乎耗尽了我独狼式、像废柴一样的工作能量槽。就像，那燃料我现在全靠最后一点渣滓撑着。是的。从那以后。

Congrats. That's gonna be real special. That for me is because I have exhausted I have close to exhausted my solo sigma male, like, degen work energy tank. Like, that fuel I'm on fucking fumes Yeah. From that.

比如，疫情发生了。我开始在家工作，然后就再没走出来。我从未从中毕业，因为我是那种典型的内向者。我只想埋头苦干，然后我就一直没停过。我当时想，哦，好吧，这样挺好。

I'd like, COVID happened. I started working from home, and I just never grew out. I never graduated out of it because I'm, like, classic introvert. All I wanna do is get my head down and crack on, and I just never stopped. I was like, oh, well, this is good.

所以更多肯定更好。所以我就一直继续、继续、继续。

So more of it must be better. So I'll just keep going and keep going and keep going.

这东西在长，长，长。

This thing's growing, growing, growing.

所以我会继续 然后你就想，哦，好吧，这是这是 然后过了一阵子，你就

So I'll keep And you're like, oh, well, this is this is and then after a while, you go

我怎么

How did I

有点，像是，是啊，我有点，像是，想念人群了，我想。是的。所以这是我不得不采取的解决方案。当你想要有自己的空间却得不到时，肯定很难受。但另一方面，事实上你拥有这种情谊，这种兄弟般的纽带，这群人知道你经历的一切。

get I kinda, like, yeah, I kinda, like, miss people, I think. Yeah. So that's the solution that I've had to have. And it must be tough when you want to have your own space and you can't. But on the flip side, the fact that you've got this camaraderie, this sort of brotherhood, this group of people that know everything that you've been through.

是啊。我是说，再想象一下，想象男性艺术家有多难，把他们变成女性。想象乐队有多难，变成他妈的单飞艺人。天呐。你人在路上，身边连兄弟都不在。

Yeah. I mean, imagine how much again, imagine how hard it is for male artists, make them female. Imagine how hard it is for bands, make it a fucking solo artist. Holy fuck. You are on the road, and you don't even have your boys with you.

你连个能转身说'兄弟，刚才台上那事儿'的人都没有。那个他妈的三号临时吉他手是谁？对，那家伙他妈是谁？上周或去年根本没见过这人。

You don't have anyone that you can turn around and go, dude, when we did that thing on stage, it's like, who the fuck is session guitarist number three? Yeah. Like, who the fuck is that guy? Like, he wasn't here last week or last year.

你看这种事吞噬了多少人，像艾米·怀恩豪斯、迈克尔·杰克逊。这些故事简直...现在都不值得拍纪录片了，因为太常见了。就像...我们早前聊过，以前有纹身的才是狂野派，现在满大街都是，没纹身反而成了不合群的异类。

You see it, eat people up, like Amy Winehouse, Michael Jackson. These I mean, these these stories are not they're almost not even documentary worthy anymore because they're just normal. It's almost like yo. We were talking about this earlier, but it's like back in the day, like, the guys with tattoos were, like, the wild ones. And now it's just everywhere that if you don't have tattoos, you're like the weird kind of oblong out of out of sync with the culture kind of vibe.

我觉得这个故事每次都在揭示真相。而人类总有种可笑的本能会说'是啊，但我例外'，懂吗？

And I think it's just it it's a story that keeps telling the truth every time. And I think as humans, we have a really interesting knack to go, yeah, but not me. You know?

这种心态反而让你更有动力。

And that makes that gives you juice too.

我经常聊暴富话题。比如中彩票得一亿美金——不管你是白手起家创业，流血汗流泪打破贫困循环，还是捡到中奖彩票——有些钱数注定会毁了你。但人人都说'换我肯定不一样，我会给朋友买房，绝不会...'

I literally I liter I literally talk about, like, being rich. And it's like, if you win the lottery and you have a $100,000,000, I don't care if you worked your ass off and built a company, blood, sweat, and tears, and come from poor family, and, you know, the cycle stops with me and that whole thing, or you just find a winning lottery ticket. There's a certain amount of money that will destroy you, and everyone goes, yeah, but I think I would do it different. I'd I'd buy all my friends' houses. I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't do this.

绝不会那样。就算是我，明知会被毁掉，但如果真给我一亿美金彩票说'撕了它'...

I wouldn't do that. And even for me, it's like, I know that it would destroy me. And then if you said, well, here's the lottery ticket. It's worth a $100,000,000. Tear it up.

我大概真不会撕，还觉得自己能处理好。

I'd literally probably not tear it up and think that I can do it better.

知道吗？这就是无法传授的人生课。看着我在雷区跳舞，避开所有别人触发的绊线。绝对如此。

Do you know that is the unteachable lessons essay? Like, that's a part of it. No. And it's watch me dance through this minefield and avoid all of the other trip trip wires that everybody else kicked. Absolutely.

对他们来说，或许某种自我中心的自恋版本就是真相。

Some solipsistic, narcissistic version of that might be true for them.

但对我不是这样。我觉得关键就在这里。比如，你们会被那种干溪杜安型的男人吸引。

But not for me. And I think I think that that's it. Like, you you're we are attracted to a dry creek dry creek Duane type guy.

真他妈难说清楚那个混蛋。我懂了。说实话，我感觉自己

Fucking impossible to say that motherfucker. I see. Honestly, feel so I

必须用我的德怀特式调整法。我得练习。

had to my Dwight tweak way. I had to practice.

是啊。之前来的路上，你开车时

Yeah. Before. On the way in, you're like driving

在练德怀特？因为我通常每期开头都会说干溪排水沟。欢迎来到...排水沟。干溪他妈

to Dwight? Because I I start every episode typically by going like Dry Creek Drain. Welcome to the say Drain. Dry Creek fucking

干溪杜安。欢迎收听节目。

Dry Creek Duane. Welcome to the show.

我来的路上一直在练习。要考虑这么多事。我在努力...对，我在努力记住那混蛋的名字。

And I was like practicing it on the way in. Got all of these things to think about. I'm trying yeah. I'm trying to work out the motherfucker's name.

没错。但他之所以鼓舞人心，是因为他就像...重点不在于告诉你要做什么或如何进步。他几乎是通过说'我每天起床就是尽量不搞砸事情'来解决问题。对，没搞砸的日子就是好日子。

Yeah. But I think the reason why he's inspiring is because he's just like it's it's not about telling you what to do and how to get better. He almost solves his problems by just saying, I just get up every day and try not to break something. Yeah. A day I don't break something is a good day.

嗯。

Yep.

这道理如此简单，却比那些'当你睡七小时与七小时半后，单克隆抗体在错误床铺和紫外线灯下的差异'之类的复杂理论更有力量。那些太让人窒息了。然后你看到这家伙站出来说：伙计，只要起床别搞砸就行。

And it's so simple, yet it it's more powerful than being like, well, your monochromatic antibody is when you're when you're tired after you get seven hours of sleep versus seven and a half with the wrong bed with the UV light. And, like, all that's so overwhelming, and then you just see a guy come up. He's like, man, just get up and don't break.

不，我并没有因此弄坏任何东西。我是说，那是我最喜欢听他讲的故事，他说，你知道吗，我站起来，看着这匹马。他试图骑它或者以某种方式驯服它，然后他就这样盯着它看了一个小时。

No. I didn't break anything to that. I mean, that was my That is such favorite story from him where he was saying, know, I I got up. I looked at this horse. He was trying to ride it or or or discipline it in some way, and he just looked at it for an hour.

你说

You said

他坐下来抽了根雪茄。然后我也坐下来又抽了一根。

he sat down and had a cigar. Then I sat down and had another one.

是的。然后他说，我...我今天过得不错。我什么都没弄坏。你呢，今天做了什么？

Yep. And he's like, I I It's good day. I didn't break anything. Yeah. What'd you do today?

没什么。你今天过得好吗？嗯，我啥也没弄坏。比起‘我如何在这里或那里实现10倍增长’，这种心态更有力量。

Not much. You have a good day? Yeah. I didn't break nothing. Like, is more powerful than how do I scale 10x here and there and there.

而当你达到那个阶段时，正如你所说，你的标准会改变，但你的幸福感不会。我记得有项心理学研究提到过关于满足感与满意度及其短暂性的问题。嗯。比如，我年薪10万美元，你对我说，‘蒂姆，你做得太棒了，我要给你涨到14万。’我的幸福指数会上升约15%，持续三十到六十天，然后又会回落。

And then when you get there to your point, your ratchet changes, your happiness doesn't. And I think there's I don't know what study it was, but there's like a psychological study that came out that talked about gratification and then satisfaction and the temporary stay of said satisfaction. Mhmm. Meaning, I make a $100,000 a year. You call me in and say, Tim, you've been such a good job.

到

I'm gonna give you a 140,000 a year. My happiness meter goes up about 15% for about thirty to sixty days, and then it recalibrates back to

我想要我

I want I

想要我需要那个

want I need the one

18万。而且问题甚至不在于‘现在我多花了4万，没有量入为出’——那是另一个财务问题，相关但不关键。关键在于我们总以为更多的物质和成就能填补空虚，而唯有自我获得的内在满足与平静才能真正填补。

eighty. And and it's not and it's not even about, oh, now I'm spending 40,000 more and not living below my means. That's a whole financial question that I think is adjacent, but not the point. It's it's that we keep thinking more stuff and more achievements are going to fill a hole that only contentment and peace that you find on your own can fill.

哦，不是俱乐部。是剧院。不是剧院。是竞技场。不是竞技场。

Oh, it's not the clubs. It's the theaters. It's not the theaters. It's the arenas. It's not the arenas.

是体育场。不是体育场。是全球巡演。是的。

It's the stadiums. It's not the stadiums. It's the global tour. It's Yeah.

是啊。对我来说太疯狂了。你居然说出这些话就很疯狂，因为如果把时间线拉长，在我们认识之前，事情是这样开始的。让我们用两分钟回溯最微小的起点——始于15岁的我说：我只想组个乐队。

Yeah. It's crazy to me. It's crazy that you're even saying those words, because if you skinny it way down, for us, before you were here, it started like this. It started let's go real micro for just two minutes. It started with me at 15 going, I just wanna be in a band.

我在父母教会的乐队打鼓。我只想组个乐队。真的，我只想和那些不像教会书呆子的人一起玩音乐。懂吗？然后我就想...我就想我们能写出一首歌。

I played drums at my parents' church. I just wanna be in a band. Literally, I just wanna play music with other people that aren't like the nerdy church people. Right? And then it I just wanna I just want us to write one song.

对吧？然后我就想我们能演出一场。我只想演一场有观众在场的演出。我只想演一场观众在场且能跟唱的歌。而现在你刚说了'体育场'。

Right? And then I just want us to play one show. I just want us to play one show where people are at it. I just want us to play one show where people are at it and know the words. And now you just said stadium.

嗯。整件事最让我感兴趣的是——在发展到如此宏大的规模之前，我们从不谈论它最初有多么微小。

Mhmm. And that's that's the most interesting thing to me about the whole thing is we never talk about how micro it is before it gets to this macro play.

噢，我和克里斯——我们的键盘手，我们经常聊这个。

Oh, me me and Chris talk our keyboard player, we talk all the time.

我知道你们俩会聊，但我...

Oh, I know you two do, but I

就像...顺便说这期播客，我不是要当脑残粉。这真是我的心头好。我就爱深挖这些。克里斯和我——我们的键盘手，经常讨论。就像你说的，你怎么知道自己是否脚踏实地？

Like, that is that this is this podcast, by the way, I'm not trying to be a fanboy. Like, this is my shit. Like, I love digging in and, like yeah. Chris and I, our keyboard player, talk a lot about it. And to your point, like, how do you know you're grounded?

懂吗？这是天性使然？是我的本性，还是后天努力？我觉得可能都有。但有个检验优先事项和心理状态的有趣方法——如果乐队今天解散，你会作何感想？

You know, is it natural? Is it my predisposition, or is it work? And I think it it's probably all of it. But, like, a really interesting way to stress test, like, your priorities and where your head's at is, like, the band breaks up today. How do you feel?

亚伦退出了。我心脏病发作死了。随便吧。听着。编什么都行。

Aaron quits. I die of a heart attack. Whatever. Look. Make up anything.

宣誓效忠的日子结束了。我生命中最美好的年华已经过去。我再也不会做那么有意义的事了。现在我只是在联邦快递工作，好像那是什么刑期似的。我得找份正经工作，天啊，所有这些事。

Under oath is no longer. The best years of my life are over. I'll never do anything as meaningful as that again. Now I just work at FedEx as if that's some, like, prison sentence. I have to get a real job, god forbid, all these things.

或者完全一样的数据集。真不敢相信你坚持了二十三年。多么幸运啊。我们只想写一首歌。比如，到底是哪一首？

Or same exact data set. I can't believe you made it twenty three years. What a blessing. All we wanna do is write one song. Like, which one is it?

因为两者都是真的。它只是告诉你内心是谁。懂吗？比如，如果这行不通，或者我们一周、十年或一百年后分手，我不需要再来一次。这不是我的一部分。

Because both are true. It just tells you who you are inside. You know? Like, if if this doesn't work or we break up in a week or ten years or a hundred years, I don't need this again. It's it's not part of me.

显然它塑造了现在的我，并给了我像我们现在正在做的这样奇妙的经历。但如果这一切都消失了，你只是一个所谓的普通人，做着普通的工作，你能接受吗？还是你需要这个？哪一部分是真正的你，你是否已经变成了你刚刚做的事？明白吗？

It's informed who I am, obviously, and afforded me amazing experiences like the one we're doing right now. But if all of this goes away and you're just a quote, unquote regular person with a regular job, like, are you okay with that? Or do you need this? What part of this is you, and have you become the thing that you just did? You know?

我觉得

I think

我们本来只是做音乐，现在我却变成了《宣誓效忠》里的蒂姆？

We would just do music, and now have I be have I become Tim from Under Oath?

明白吗？我想他一开始就说过，人们爱的是我这个人，还是我做的事？

You know? That was the I think he said at the very beginning, do people love me for who who I am or for what I do?

我们在谈论女人。是啊。那我爱的是我这个人，还是只是...

We're talking about women. Yeah. And and do I love me for who I am or just what

我做的事？

I do?

没错，百分之百。

Yeah. 100%.

这就是你必须提问的原因。你一直这样说话。我觉得尤其在早期，当事情爆发时，我总说这个，应该换个说法描述乐队走红的过程。

And that's You have to ask your question. You've been talking like this. And I think in the in the early days, especially when it when it blew up, I keep saying that, and there's gotta be another way to say the band got popular.

我觉得这是众所周知的表达方式。

I think it's the way that everybody knows.

对，对。但他就是这么说话的。我说的这些你都清楚。你从21岁起就这么说话了。

Yeah. Yeah. But what you he has talked like this. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. You have talked like this since you were 21 years old.

比如乐队刚他妈...又来了。乐队刚爆红那会儿，他会和暖场乐队一起坐面包车巡演，你不介意我提这个吧？不介意。

Like, there was a time when the when the band first fuck. Here it is again. When the band first blew up where he would ride, and I don't think you mind me talking about this. No. He would ride with, like, the opening bands in Vans.

就像他会...

Like, he would

这算是你苦行僧式的自虐行为吗？就像故意穿他妈不舒服的衣服来提醒自己出身？

Was this like your stoic hair shirt equivalent? Like, you're purposefully putting the fucking uncomfortable clothing on just to remind yourself of where you came from?

说实话，当时...我觉得那是幼稚。现在回头看，我现在会这么做吗？不会。但我觉得那正是对我们讨论问题的反应。

Honestly, it was it was I think at the time, it was immature. Looking back, like, would I do that now? No. But I think it was a response to exactly what we've been talking about.

但重点就在这儿——它源自同样的心态。

But it came that's the point I'm making. It came from the same place.

源于名利双收后我的反感，觉得这一切都很恶心。

It came from fame and money and me going, this is all gross.

这把我们吓坏了。我提起这件事的原因——之所以反复强调，是因为我认为有必要指出——自我实现与那种顿悟，比如联邦快递并非牢笼。让我们切换这个数据集到相同的数据集。让我们换个视角说，我们度过了二十三年美好的时光。那吓坏了我们中的一些人，而其他人听到这样的反思时也是如此。

And it scared us to death. The reason I brought it up the reason I brought it up, because I think it's pertinent to say, is that self actualization and that realization of, like, FedEx isn't a prison. Like, let's switch this data set to same data set. Let's switch the perspective to say, we had twenty three beautiful years. It scared us to death, some of us, some of the rest of us, hearing that reflection.

就像

Like

听起来那个人没那么投入，或者听起来他们对可能发生的事情无所谓，而你会介意。这简直，天啊。蒂姆是不是半只脚已经出去了？是啊。说不定哪天他就突然撂挑子不干了。

Well, it sounds like the person's less bought in, or it sounds like they would be okay with a thing happening that you wouldn't be okay with happening. It's like, holy fuck. Is Tim half out? Yeah. Like, maybe he's not maybe he's just gonna pull the fucking pin one day.

但尤其是——而且我当时是那么想的。

But especially and and I thought that.

如果你以开放的态度对待事物，重点不在于确保永不放手或刻意抛弃。你只需这样持握，结果如何都无所谓。当你意识到这其实无关紧要时——并非指宣誓作证那种无关紧要。我们确实拯救过生命，他们有纹身，这帮助我度过脑部手术等等。我们听过所有故事，我们对生活和文化的影响是显著且可感知的。

And if you hold things open handed, it's not about making sure I never let it go or intentionally throwing it. You just hold it like this, and it doesn't matter. Like, when you realize it doesn't actually matter, and not to say that under oath doesn't matter. I think we've I mean, we know we've saved people's lives, and they have tattoos, and this got me through brain surgery and whatever. We've heard all the stories, and the impact that we've had on life and culture is noticeable and palpable.

但除此之外，如果不是我们，也会有别人来做。而且——这真的不重要。我总在思考临终时刻。总是。比如史蒂夫·乔布斯最后的遗言——

But outside of that, if it wasn't us, it would have been someone else. And and it's more about it it really doesn't matter. Like, I'm always thinking about deathbed. Always. Like and then everything that comes out, Steve Jobs' last things.

我已经提过这个。是啊。所有这些人的临终感悟。嗯。我们采访过养老院的85位老人。

I've already mentioned that. Yeah. All these people's last things. Mhmm. We asked 85 people in a nursing home.

他们人生最后悔的十件事。你整天都能看到这类清单，内容大同小异。那为何非要等到弥留之际——

There are top 10 things they changed. You see it all day long, and and it's all the same shit. So why wait until we're dying

关于这点有个问题问你。

Question for you on that.

才去践行这些道理。

To deploy that.

关于这个我有个问题。临终五大遗憾，就是那种临终前的事。对，有个非常著名的调查。你觉得过气摇滚明星的临终五大遗憾会是什么？你认为他们会有哪些遗憾？

Question for you on that. The top five regrets of the dying, the deathbed thing that we Yeah. A very famous survey that was done. What do you think are the top five deathbed regrets of ex rock stars? What do you think they would have in there?

哦，我觉得这完全取决于他们最终境遇如何。

Oh, I think it all depends on where they end up.

或者...或者说他们为何成为过气明星的原因

Or or why they're why they're exes,

我想这才是关键问题。我认为当你第一次真正与女性建立关系时，可能会后悔浪费二十年时间随便和女人上床。等孩子长大后——我和克里斯经常讨论这个，他是我们的键盘手——我知道自己尽了全力，但同时也清楚有些东西被我搞砸了，只是现在还不确定具体是什么。

I think, is my question. I think that the first time you have an actual relationship with a woman, you probably regret wasting twenty years just having sex with random women. I think when your kids grow up, and we'll see, and me and Chris talk about this, our keyword player, a lot. Like, I know I'm doing my best, and and I also know I'm breaking something. I just don't know yet which which what it is.

明白吗？我的孩子可能会反目指责我从未陪伴，从技术上讲他们没错。我每天和他们视频，关系很好。我女儿组了乐队，但每场演出都来看。

You know? My kids could turn on me and say you were never there, and they're technically correct. I FaceTime them. We have a great relationship. You know, my daughter's in a band, but she comes to all the shows.

她热爱这种生活，我也常问孩子们：'你们觉得这样行吗？'所以对我来说很难判断。但有些人因吸毒之类的事死去，这几乎就像在说组乐队的好处——

She loves it, and I check-in with my kids. I'm like, do you guys is this okay? So for me, it's hard it's hard to hard to tell. But then you have people, like, dying, like, drugs, the whole thing. Like, it's almost like what's good about being in a band.

我觉得那容易量化得多。比起坏处，你能更快数出那些好处。

I think that's a lot easier to quantify. You can count those way quicker than what's bad.

而且你确实会有这种感觉——比如两周前的周一晚上，我睡得特别沉。最近太忙了，我在纳什维尔有份朝九晚五的工作，当专职词曲作者。

And you do feel like like the other night, I was dead asleep, like, two weeks ago on Monday, like, very asleep. Like, I've been so busy, and I I work, like, a nine to five in Nashville as a song as a staffing songwriter.

我听说了。

I've heard.

是啊。所以我回到家就...

Yeah. And I so I just I'm so when I get home

你现在正处于创作歌曲的瓶颈期。

You're at the cold phase of songwriting at the moment.

是的。就是累，累到不行。用‘后悔’这个词可能不太准确，但我女儿醒来就吐，不得不吐。抱歉。

Yes. So just tired, tired, tired. And this is something that I regret's the wrong word, but I I my daughter wakes up and vomits. Has to vomit. Sorry.

病了。肠胃病毒。你懂的，小孩子嘛，总是这样。

Sick. Stomach virus. You know? Kids. Whatever.

她四岁。

She's four.

嗯。

Yep.

知道她说的第一句话是什么吗？她害怕呕吐。就是那种拼命忍住恶心的感觉。她喊着‘谁快带我去看医生’。

And you know what the first thing she said was? She's scared to throw up. You know that feeling when you're trying to fight Mhmm. Vomiting. She goes, somebody please take me to the doctor.

我当时脑子嗡的一声，心想完了。因为多年来的健康焦虑，我第一反应总是这样——哪里疼了就得赶紧做检查。你明白吗？那一刻我意识到

And my brain went, oh, fuck. Because for years, with the health anxiety thing, I've always that's what that's the first thing I do. Oh, this hurts or this I gotta go get a scan. You know what I mean? And my brain went

我把诅咒传下去了。

I've passed the curse.

我把诅咒传下去了，这对我来说比五十个摇滚明星的临终遗憾更沉重——我会把巡演养成的那些习惯传给下一代吗？

I've passed the curse, and that to me is the biggest regrets of 50 dying rock stars or is is like like, will I pass on the habits that I picked up touring and doing this? Will I pass that on to my offspring?

你确实会。我知道我也会。这就是人生，我们都在打破些什么。如果要列五大遗憾或五大成就，那必须建立在‘我们尚未抵达终点’的前提下。

And you and you will. I I know. And I will. And and I think that's kind of the thing of, like, we're all breaking something. And I think to make your top five list regrets or top five best things, like, it has to be it has to be in the construct of, like, we're not there yet.

这个故事仍在书写中。

The story's still being written.

但我们已经有我有了

But we have I have

一个相当不错的想法，但我要到60岁回头看时才会知道。

a pretty good idea, but I won't know until I'm 60. And I look back and go,

当你处于三重困境时，

When you're triple d,

你可以

you can

说，好吧，那是个好日子。

say, well, that's a good day.

我每年大概会在脑海里退出乐队四次。那种感觉非常真实。而且总是在飞机上遇到气流时产生。虽然不真实，但我会想，如果我死了怎么办？

I quit the band in my head probably four times a year. And it's like and it's it is palpable. And it's always on a plane, always during turbulence. And it's not real, but I'm like, what if I were to die?

哦，我

Oh, I

明白了。这全是因为我要去澳大利亚为3500人演出。我多自私啊，认为这是我唯一赚钱的方式和唯一能让我快乐的事，而现在我的孩子们没有父亲了，你知道这很荒谬。但当你有那些完全清醒和平静的时刻，你会看到真正重要的是什么，没有什么比你承诺抚养、供养和保护的那几个人更重要了。

see. And it's all about me going to play in front of 3,500 people in Australia. How selfish was I to think that this was the only way that I can make money and the only thing that's gonna make me happy, and now my kids don't have a dad, you know, which is absurd. But, like, when you have these moments of, like, full clarity and peace and you see what really matters, like, nothing matters more than a very few people that you've committed to raise and provide for and protect.

除此之外，显然，看起来你们确实经历过一些动荡的过去，人来人往，充满挑战。我们真的没有。

Well, also on top of that, I obviously, it certainly seems like you guys have been through some, like, a tumultuous past, people coming and going, challenges. We really haven't.

我是说，我们大部分时间都保持23人相同的阵容，除了那个

I mean, we've 23 with the same lineup for the most part, except for the

我是说，情绪上波动很大，我会这么形容。是啊。在你们几个人之间。对吧？他妈的五六个人的事？

I mean, emotionally turbulent, would I say. Yeah. Between between you everybody. Right? Fucking five six people?

收到。

Copy.

五个人？其实是六个人。是六个，而且

Five people? It it was six. Was six, and it

对你们来说是五个。但

was five to your people. But

整个游戏范围，你说得对。上瘾啊确实。

the game the gamut, you're right. Addiction Yeah.

这种感觉。有人失去了父母。有人有了孩子。有人结了婚。有人离了婚。

This feeling. People people's lost parents. People have had kids. People have been in marriages. People have got divorced.

有人，你知道的，差点他妈出轨白人。兄弟，你回家了。你经历了太多这些破事。是啊。全套经历

People have, you know, fucking been tempted to cheat on white people. Fucking dude, you're coming home. You've had too much to do with all that stuff. Yeah. The full works

之类的。就像，

of that. Like,

想想看，我是说，这大概是最...或许我们真正的收获是沿途结交的朋友。老兄，这他妈才是最珍贵的东西。不过我想稍微深入探讨下艺术形式这个话题，因为我觉得，你知道，观众捕获这概念在我的圈子里经常被讨论。

think about I mean, this is the most, like, maybe it was the friends we made along the way. Like, mate, is the most fucking that thing ever. Yeah. But I'm I'm interested to just dig into the art form thing for a second because I think, you know, audience capture is something that's talked about a lot in my world. Yeah.

你知道，允许你创造一个你认为观众想要的形象，然后你不断投其所好，试图满足他们的需求，这很有趣。而不是去做那些你觉得有品味、真诚、艺术上纯粹的事情，被好奇心、惊叹、敬畏和真正的勇气所引导。

You know, allowing the you create an avatar of what you think your audience wants, and then you continue to throw red meat to them in an attempt to appease what it is that they want Interesting. As opposed to doing what to you feels tasteful, earnest, artistically pure, being led by curiosity and wonder and awe and intrigue and and sort of genuine bravery to

是啊。

Yeah.

说出你真实的想法，感受你正在经历的事情，不要匆忙略过那些内容，比如直面那些尴尬，无论它是什么。

Say the thing that you mean and feel the thing that you do and not rush through the stuff, like sit with the awkward whatever it is.

没错。

Yeah.

而且我不得不假设，回顾你们的作品集时，你们一定有过这样的时期——妈的，好吧，那我们需要写什么才能受欢迎？我们需要写什么才能得到那些安全数字？我们需要那样做吗，还是做我们想做的，去他妈的。

And I have to assume as well that looking back on a body of work, you guys will have had I don't know, but I have to assume that there was periods where you would have been like, fuck. Okay. So what do we need to write to be popular? What do we what do we need to write to be able to get, like, they're only chasing safety numbers again? And do we need to do that, or do we need to do what we and fuck.

比如，我该怎么在脑子里区分这些？因为音乐产业立刻就被这样分析化了。那么，我的成功标准是什么？是现场演出时观众有多嗨吗？

Like, how do I even separate that out in my mind? Because there is this analyticalization Yeah. Of the music industry immediately. So what's my metric for success? Is it how hard the fucking crowd goes when we play it live?

那如果观众少了一点呢？是我有多爱这首歌吗？那如果乐队里其他人没那么喜欢这首歌呢？也许我错了。所有这些自我怀疑开始涌现。

Well, what if the crowd's a little bit smaller? Is it how much I love the song? Well, what if somebody else in the band doesn't love the song quite so much? Maybe I'm wrong. You have all of this self doubt that starts to come through.

而且我不得不假设，回顾那些你们感到自豪的作品集，一定是艺术生涯中最有回报的方式之一，因为这是你们总能感到骄傲的事情。你会说，兄弟，我他妈爱死那首歌了。是啊，我他妈太喜欢那首曲子了。那对我真的非常非常有意义，我知道我们本不该做它。

And I I have to assume that looking back on a a library of work that you feel proud in has got to be one of the most dividend paying ways to spend a career that is in an artistic outlet because it's the it's one of the things that you can always feel proud about. You're like, dude, I fucking love that song. Yeah. I fucking adore that that track. Like, that was really, really fucking meaningful to me, and I know that we shouldn't have made it.

我知道唱片公司他妈的很讨厌它，我知道，但它对我真的意义重大。那是我他妈真正感到骄傲的东西。

And I know that the label fucking hated it, and I know that and it really fucking meant a lot to me. And, like, that's something that I real feel really fucking proud of.

对我来说这是周期性的，我想在我们的职业生涯中，有几次我会想，如果我们这样做，我们就会——而且我相信了。如果我们做这种类型的歌，用这种调，这种声乐编排，它就会成为《追逐安全》。嗯。我大概这样想过15次。然后我又有另一面，比如，让我们写一首七分钟的歌，关于他父亲的去世，我认为这是我写过的最美的音乐之一，但没人听。

It's been cyclical for me, and I I think I'm there's been times in our career where I've been like, if we do this, we will we will and I've believed it. If we do this, if we make this type of song in this key with this type of vocal arrangement, it will become Chasing Safety. Mhmm. Like, I thought that I've thought that, like, 15 times. And then there's this other side of me where it's like, let's write a seven minute song about his father's death that I think is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever written that no one listens to.

哪首歌记录了那个？

Which tracks that?

那首歌叫《肺炎》。收录在我们倒数第二张专辑里。不是最新的那张，而是前一张。它是最后一首，所以是最后一首歌吗？是的。

It's called pneumonia. It's on our second to last record. So not our newest one, but one before. It's the final so is it the last song? Yeah.

就像，我想到那首歌时，就觉得，哦，那是我在这支乐队里一直想实现的一切。你知道吗？然后你和我一直这样循环往复，回望那时，想着那就是我当时想要的。而我觉得你可能是乐队里对想要的样子最坚定不移的人。

Like, I think about that song, and I'm like, oh, that's everything I've ever wanted to do in this band. You know? And then you have and I have been cyclical like this the whole time, looking back at that, going, that's what I wanted then. And I think you are probably the person in the band who has been the most steady with what with how you want it to be.

意思是

Meaning

对。你是第一个这样的人。你一直都是第一个。

Yeah. You're the first person one. You're you're the first person Always.

你是我第一个听到把音乐称为艺术的人。是啊，在我们年轻的时候。明白吗？

You're the person a purse person I ever heard refer to music as art. Yeah. When we were young. You know?

是啊。但对我个人而言，这在乐队里制造了很多紧张。回想起来，我觉得...其实我当时并不清楚。对。一直都是这样。

Yeah. Never for me personally, it it built a lot of tension in the band. I think it well, looking back, I didn't know. Yeah. Always.

绝不妥协。去他妈的唱片公司。字面意义上的。

Uncompromising. Fuck the label. Like, literally.

陆军...抱歉，哥伦比亚。

Army Sorry, Columbia.

我们的经纪人不能进录音室。谁都不准进录音室。至今都是。你不行，你就是不能进录音室，因为你是外界干扰。只有我们自己在里面。

Our manager is not allowed in the studio. Nobody's allowed in the studio. This day, he's Ever. You are not you are not allowed in the studio because you are an outside influence. It's just us.

而你的眼睛会亮起来，但你的眼睛不会。

And you'll your eyes will light up, but your eyes won't.

没错。然后，老兄，克里斯告诉我他过来喝啤酒。他说，老兄，第三首歌，也许我们应该全部重做。可能这是一种保护性的应对机制，因为我容易受影响。我不知道为什么它如此神圣或如此强硬，但它从来都不是成功的要素。

Yep. And then, dude, Chris told me he came over for beers. He's like, dude, the third track, like, maybe we should do all of it. And maybe that's like a protect protect protective coping mechanism because I am impressionable. I don't know why it's so sacred or maybe so hardline, but it's never ever what's successful.

甚至到了我真的打了他们的地步，我当时想，我们上一张专辑，就是刚做完的那张，我说我想去小木屋，甚至不想让任何人上iTunes。我不想听Beartooth、Bad Omens、Rob Zombie，或者任何人的歌。

Like, to the point where I've literally hit them, and I'm like, I wanna our last record, the one we just did, I was like, I wanna go to the cabin, and I don't even want anyone to be on iTunes. I don't want to hear what Beartooth or Bad Omens or Rob Zombie or I don't wanna hear

到什么程度？

To what?

任何关于任何事的东西。我不想要任何外界影响。我只想要两种成分，我们自己和灵感。就这样。如果你让歌曲主导，它就会主导一切。

Anything about anything. I don't want any outside influence. I want it to be two ingredients, us and inspiration. That's it. And if you let the song drive, it will drive.

你知道吗？我一直都是这样。比如，追求安全时，他们会说，老兄，如果你再这样做，我们就能让你上K Rock，你会成为下一个Fall Out Boy。所以我们写了《Find the Right Line》。那是我做过的最重的东西。

You know? And I've always I've always been that way. Like, chasing safety, they're like, dude, if you do this again, we're gonna get you on K Rock, you're gonna be the next Fall Out Boy. And so we wrote to find the right line instead. Just the heaviest thing I've ever done.

我他妈爱死这个了。

I fucking love that out.

在我看来，那是对你们试图让我做这件事的直接回应。

And that was in direct response, in my opinion, to you guys trying to make me do this thing.

不。去你妈的。

No. Go fuck yourself.

我爱

I love

那张专辑也是，但说实话，当时我就想，什么？为什么？你懂我意思吗？因为我和他截然相反，而现在通过Under Oath我明白了，我希望只和我们自己合作，我认为这是正确的选择。我觉得这是对的，但在日常生活中，我每天都想和不同的人合作。

the album too, but at the time, just to be frank, I was I was like, what? But why? You know I mean? Because I am the polar opposite of him and where I I have now learned with Under Oath that I want it to be just us, and I think it's correct. I think it's the correct, but on a day to day basis, like, I wanna work with somebody different every day.

嗯，你确实如此。对吧？你现在这种他妈的蝙蝠侠、布鲁斯·韦恩式的新生活方式。你已经找到了自己

Well, you do. Right? And this that you've found yourself in your fucking Batman, Bruce Wayne new lifestyle. You've found yourself

是啊，是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

我是说，你能向不了解纳什维尔歌曲创作当前速度的人解释一下吗？

I mean, can you explain for the people who don't understand what the sort of velocity of Nashville songwriting at the moment, please.

对我来说，我每周写五到七首歌。所以我起床后去健身房，然后去录音室。有人会出现。

For me, I so I do I write five songs a week up to seven. So, like, I get up. I go to the gym. I go to the studio. Someone shows up.

我之前可能见过他们并合作过，也可能没有，然后你们会花大约一小时像这样交流。嗯。很多今天讨论的话题都会出现。现在的艺人和过去大不相同，因为他们要应对算法问题，就像我们之前聊到的。几个月前，我看到一个女孩25万美元的专辑被搁置，因为她没有爆红瞬间。她在我沙发上哭着问‘我该怎么办？’

I've either met them before and written with them before or not, and you spend about an hour like this. Mhmm. You know, a lot of this stuff does come up. Same same stuff we've talked about today because and the artists now are so different than they used to be because they're dealing with, like, algorithmic issues, like we kinda talked about earlier, and they're dealing with, like like, a a couple months ago, saw a girl's $250,000 album get shelved because she hadn't had a viral moment. And she cried on my couch about what am I gonna do?

懂吗？所以，是的，每天都是不同的歌，通常四小时内完成创作和样带录制。Underoath的机制对我来说是个苦差事。我不是在贬低它，但有时候确实...是啊。

You know? Because so, yeah, it's it's a it's a different song every day, and it's usually written and demo tracked in four hours. Right? And the Underoath machine is it's a slog for me. And I and I I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but sometimes Yeah.

就像我在Underoath学到的那样，这是我的工作方式。通常由Tim和我开始每首歌，有时Chris会带来灵感。但大多数时候，歌曲始于一个想法，有时是标题，但更多是一个念头。

Like, what I've learned to do with Underoath, this is what I do. Tim and I typically begin every song, and sometimes Chris will bring something. But we typically begin every song. And for me, songs begin with, like, a thought. Sometimes a title, but most of the time a thought.

比如我想要这首歌是双倍速的快节奏，结尾会铺展开来——就像边缘理论那样运作。Tim和我关系密切，能快速完成这部分，然后我就想离开。

Like, I want this to be, like like, it's like fast in double time. And at the end, it'll really sprawl out and do this thing. Like, really edge theory. Like, that's how it works on my brain. And Tim and I have such a close relationship that we can do that together very quickly, and then I like to leave.

接着他会花四天时间反复琢磨那三分钟的内容——那是我72小时前和他一起草草完成的。等我最后回来时会说‘哦，他是对的’。然后我们处理歌词部分，再录制人声。这就是我的...

And then he will brood and ruminate four days over that three minutes that I shit out with him seventy two hours prior. And then I'll come back at the end and go, oh, he was right. And then I'll deal we'll do the lyric thing, and then we'll do the vocal thing. But that's that's the way that I

但纳什维尔就像他妈福特生产线一样千篇一律。是啊。当我开始梳理这些时，我才刚刚开始理解——首先，我才刚明白有多少从X场景出来的孩子正在掌控着乡村音乐圈。太疯狂了。这他妈怎么回事？

But Nashville is Dash like the fucking Ford production line. Yeah. When you start to spread it out, I've only recently begun to understand first off, I've only recently begun to understand how many x scene kids are running the country scene. Crazy. What the fuck?

全都是他们。简直疯了。我们最早的巡演经理，在弗吉尼亚遇到的那个在破俱乐部Alleycats工作的家伙，现在成了Jelly Roll的巡演经理兼音响师

All of them. It's insane. Our very first tour manager, a guy that we met in Virginia, he was in a shitty club called Alleycats, is Jelly Roll's tour manager and sound

没错。

guy. Yeah.

是啊。对。

Yeah. Yeah.

嗯。而且这帮场景孩子掌控着一切。Dan and Shay也是。

Yeah. And scene kids run everything. Dan and Shay.

对对。我和他们关系很好。

Yeah. Yeah. I'm good I'm good friends.

同一批孩子。

Same kids.

没错。确实。我是说，十八愿景乐队的吉他手现在是Zed的巡演经理。我觉得从DIY硬核场景出身真是种难得的特质——因为我们是唯一需要亲力亲为的音乐类型，要自己预订首演，得随身带着日记本、破地图、记满地址的笔记本，搞清楚谁该拿什么分成。说唱、乡村这些圈子完全不是这样。

Yep. They do. I mean, the guitar player for eighteen Visions is Zed's tour manager. Like and I think I really think it's an attractive quality to come from in, like, the DIY hardcore hardcore scene because we're the only genre, I think, that I can think of at scale that has to do everything themselves, has to book your first show yourself. You have to carry around a diary, a freaking atlas, a notebook full of addresses, who's getting what, like, in rap, in country, and everything.

国家爵士音乐家们？那都是工业化生产的。电子舞曲也是。在SoundCloud真空环境里发酵，直到第一次演出就面对上万观众。然后你才懵逼：我他妈该怎么定制T恤？哦，我们全都有周边公司兄弟。

And National Majazz Jazz musicians It's built in a machine. It's built EDM. It's built in a vacuum on SoundCloud until your first show is in front of 10,000 people. And then you're like, what the hell how do I get how do I get t shirts made? Like, oh, we we all own merch companies, bro.

包在我们身上。这根本就是种说不上多高尚但必须掌握的技能——可一旦你学会了，就价值连城。

Like, we got you. Like, it's literally just a skill set that maybe is not even virtuous. It's just what you have to do, but once you've done it, that's valuable.

你意识到了这些稀罕事。

You realize the rarities.

是啊。你在这儿一抓一大把，而我们的圈子说白了就是婴儿和主流世界的其他人。那就是——

Yeah. You're you're a dime a dozen here, and you realize our scene literally is baby and everyone else in the major world. That's Who

谁能想到学校里那些该死的忧郁emo小孩会长大后——

knew who knew that the fucking sad emo kids from school were gonna grow up and

老兄，我经常和艺术家合作。我不知道。真糟糕。我经常合作的艺术家有唱片合约、品牌代言、经纪人、律师、周边合约，但他们从没演出过。

Dude, I work with artists on a regular basis. I don't know. Sick. I don't know. On a regular basis, I work with artists that have a label deal, fucking brand deals, an agent, a lawyer, a merch deal, and they've never played a show.

然后他们来找亚伦帮他们写歌。那不是艺术。那是生意。

And then they come to Aaron to write their songs for him. That's not art. That's a business.

没错。我是说，我们现在经常看到这种情况。对吧？本森·布恩最近抄袭了很多该死的素材。而且我...我昨晚还和迈克聊过这个。

Yeah. I mean, we're seeing this a lot at the moment. Right? Benson Boone copying a lot of fucking stick at the moment for Yeah. And I I think Talked

昨晚和迈克聊过这个。

to Mike about that last night.

是啊。每个人都在...内容创作领域也差不多。嘿。这个人说的有多少真话？有多少是...

Yeah. Everybody is and it's not too dissimilar in in the world of content creation. Hey. How much truth is this person saying? Like, how much Yeah.

嗯。这个人说的有多少是他们真心相信的，有多少是在说政治上或文化上受欢迎、权宜之计、有用、策略性、或是被扭曲篡改的东西，只为达成他们想要的结果，与特定人物结盟？他们有多少是在拍这个或那个的马屁？这里面有多少真实性？

Mhmm. Is how much is this person saying what they believe, and how much is this person saying something which is politically or culturally popular or expedient or useful or strategic or molested, perverted in order to be able to get the outcome that they want to align themselves with a particular person? How much are they causing sucking up to this or that or the other? Yeah. And how much authenticity is in here?

我...我喜欢你用'扭曲'这个词。我听你用过几次，这词太刺耳了——至少在美国只会让人联想到涉及孩子的变态事。但你说得对。就像是把某样东西拿来扭曲玩弄。确实如此。

I I love your use of the word molested. I I've heard you use that a couple times, and it's so jarring because that only triggers in at least in The States is, like, weird stuff with kids. And you're right. It's like taking something and just distorting it and fucking with it. And yeah.

我不知道。我想我

I don't know. I think I

尝试。我真的努力尝试。我真诚地说，就像，面对所有被派到我这里来的人，我真的试图，就像，注入——我从他那里学到了这一点——我尝试将那种艺术注入到‘盒子里的歌’中。你懂我的意思吗？

try. I really try. And this is I'm earnestly saying this, like, with all these people that get sent to me, I really try to, like, inject and I learned that from him. I try to inject that art into song in a box. You know what I mean?

而这正是为什么

And and that's why

我们有四个小时。试着想出点不是完全没意义的东西吧。

We've got four hours. Let's try and come up with something that's not totally meaningless.

是啊。因为你知道

Yeah. Because you know

他太擅长这个了。就像，他真的很在行。当我说那不是艺术而是生意时，那一切都是为了找到能卖出最多份的产品。但在那个真空里，确实有真正的艺术家在创作。明白吗？

so good at it. Like, he's good at it. Like and when I say that's not art, that's a business, everything about that is about trying to find the right product to sell the most units. But in in that vacuum, there are actual artists doing the work. You know?

对。所以我是说，另外，咱们

Yeah. So I mean, also, let's

忘了他干的就是流水线作业。

forget what he's doing is factory work.

别忘了那些该死的Scene Kids，不管你怎么称呼他们，文艺复兴革命也好，要能演奏那种连复段和特定的鼓点，所需的才华水平——那肯定是它技术上相当难的音乐的贡献因素之一。然后你上去就说，嘿，老兄。你他妈的

Let's not forget with the fucking Scene Kids, whatever you wanna say, Renaissance revolution, perhaps, the level of talent that you have to be able to play those sort of riffs and to be able to play those particular drum pieces, like, that's got to be one of the contributing factors that it's technically quite a difficult music. And then you go up and you go like, hey, man. Like, you're fucking

C A D C。但它又回来了

c a d c. But it's back

不过还是回到他刚才说的。比如有人来找我时，他们难以置信——我不是在自夸——但他们无法理解我现在就能全部搞定。他们会问‘什么意思？你不需要雇人吗？’我就反问‘雇人干嘛？’

to it's back to what it's back to what he was saying, though. Like, when people come to me and they can't believe and I'm not pumping my own tires, but they can't believe that I'll just do it all right now. Like, what do you mean? You don't have to hire someone. I'm like, for what?

因为我们过去必须亲力亲为。

Because we had to do it all ourselves.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是场景音乐新浪潮，也是为什么场景音乐人正在纳什维尔大放异彩。

That's the scene that's the scene kid renaissance and why the scene kids are running Nashville.

他能录音、能唱歌、会弹贝斯、吉他、打鼓，还能给你完整制作一首歌

He can record. He can sing. He could play bass, play guitar, and drums and get you a full song

哦对了，我还会稍微做下母带处理。我能直接导出成品，虽然算小样级别，但绝对他妈够劲——

Oh, by the way, I'll I'll give it, like, a little bit of a master as well. I'll be able to, like, just bounce it. Like, it'll it'll sound like, it's demo, but, like, it'll be it'll be fucking

再加点采样进去

Throw some samples on there

音量拉满。唱片公司听着会觉得‘操，这感觉对了’

and be loud. The label will sound good. They'll they'll like, you could fucking you can sense got

我在纳什维尔有工作，而且混得不错，正是因为你说的这些。纳什维尔过去就像个写歌流水线——先找词曲作者，再找制作人，制作人雇乐队。而我能和你一起写歌，直接给你个超带感的小样。

a job. I got I I got gainful employment in Nashville, and I'm successful in Nashville because of what you just said. Because Nashville was became such a song trap in the sense where as you go to a songwriter, then you go to a producer. The producer would hire a band. I'll write a song with you, and I'll give you a demo that slaps.

两周后你会打电话问‘能给我那个小样吗？’我就说‘这个数就给你’。懂我意思吗？这就是我们的生存之道。

And then you'll call me in two weeks and say, can I have that demo? And I'll go, for this number, you can have. Do know what I'm saying? Like but that's but that's how it that's how we've that's how we've

搞定了。我很感兴趣。你知道，这非常像是蝙蝠侠与布鲁斯·韦恩的关系，你承受着巨大压力，创作上的张力，以有时在艺术上颇具挑战的节奏工作。当然，对你而言如此。但现在你生活中还有另一部分。

done it. I'm interested. You know, this this very much is, like, kind of the whatever Batman to your Bruce Wayne thing, that you've got a lot of pressure, creative tension, working at a pace that sometimes can be artistically challenging Sure. For you. But you've got now this other part of your life.

你从这另一部分中获得怎样的满足感？其中有多少是令人不适的、满足的或艺术表达的？你会对这些感到矛盾吗？

What sort of fulfillment do you get out of this other bit? Is the how much ick versus fulfillment versus artistic expression? Are you ever conflicted about that stuff?

嗯-嗯。对我来说，Unwroth（可能指乐队名）就像...这话听起来很老套，但它是我的音乐家园。我可以在蒂姆面前表现得很糟糕，然后说‘我有个想法’。比如——举个例子——‘迈出你家前门是危险的事’。

Mm-mm. Unwroth to me is like this this is gonna sound so cheesy. It's a feeling of musical home to me. I can suck so bad in front of Tim and just say, I have this idea. Like and I I like, for instance, dangerous business walking out your front door.

你知道，时间紧迫。我最初对那首歌的想法疯狂极了。我想让它涉及不同语言和人群。我想说‘他们自称法国人，他们这样做’。

You know, the time is running. I had this the original idea for that song was insane. I wanted it to be about different languages and people groups. I wanted to say, they say they're French. They do this.

那太荒谬了。简直是最荒谬的

It was ridiculous. Like, the most ridiculous

嗯。

Mhmm.

但对我来说，那就是自由——音乐中最纯粹的家的感觉，就是你可以去那里，敢于在某人面前表现得很糟。真的，任何事。真的敢于出丑。我可以对他说任何话，他都不会惊讶。我敢保证，如果这边有个录音棚，你说‘伙计们，写首歌吧’。

Like but to me, like, that's free that's the purest form of home in music is where you can go and dare to suck in front of someone. Like, really anything. Like, really dare to suck. I can say anything to him, he won't be surprised. I could promise you, if there's a studio over here and you're like, guys, write a song.

我会去找蒂姆说‘我最近在听这个说唱歌手，他有...’他会说‘我拿到这些采样了，要试试吗？’然后我们会尝试做一首说唱歌曲。最终不知怎的却变成了一首Under Oath风格的歌，但那就是真正的自由——我绝不会用它与世界交换。

I go to Tim and I go, I've been listening to this one rap artist, and he's got he will go, I got these samples. You wanna try them? And we would try to make a rap song. And it would come out as an Under Oath song somehow in the end, but that it's the true freedom that and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

是啊。能够自由地表现糟糕是

Yeah. The freedom to be able to suck is

因为没有它，我会崩溃的。

Because without it, would implode.

是啊。我是说，回到你刚才问的那个关于真实性和谁在操控舆论、谁处于风口浪尖的问题。就像现在这个话题很热门，我们得聊聊。我们之前讨论过，但对我来说，现在的摇滚乐尤其缺乏灵感。

Yeah. I mean, even going back to the question you just asked about, like, the the authenticity and who's who's spinning things and who's in a position of, like, this is hot right now. Let's cover that. Like, we were talking about this earlier, but, like, rock music specifically to me is very uninspired. Right now.

而且...对。用亚伦的话来说，他觉得现在音乐都一个调调，全是由那五个人制作的，大家就等着下一个涅槃乐队出现。你知道吧？还有那些转门乐队之类的。

And and yeah. And, you know, to Aaron's point, to use his words, he's like, it's all sounds the same. It's all made by the same five people, and somebody's just waiting for the next Nirvana. You know? And there is the turnstiles, and there are all these.

但如果你退一步看，会发现那些最火的乐队其实都成立十年、十五年了。他们更像是我们的同辈，而不是所谓的新生代。然后我想到这里的喜剧圈，我觉得戴夫·查普尔、托尼、吉利斯这帮人才是当下文化里最朋克的存在——他们完全不受约束，你能感觉到他们毫不留情。即使有时让人倒吸凉气，人们还是会被这种真实吸引。

And then you zoom out, you're like, oh, but those are the biggest bands, but they've all been bands for, like, ten years, fifteen years. They're not they're more our peers than like, oh, the new crop are gonna do it right. And then I think about the comedy scene here, and I think that's the most punk thing happening in culture is, like, Dave Chappelle, Tony, all those guys, Gillis, like, they are unhinged, and you can feel that they're not pulling punches. And I think people gravitate towards that even if it's like, yikes. Like, woah.

他那么说了。你相信他们。我觉得这又回到了卡伦之前谈到的点。

He said that. You believe them. And I think that goes back to what Karen was talking about.

你在哪里听到

Where you hear

所有人都相信我们前三张专辑，因为那是真实的。就像

Everyone believes our first three albums because they're true. Like

那么，在脱离现实生活整整二十五年后，要重新找回那种状态有多难呢？

Well, how hard is it to get back there after you've spent such a long two and a half decades not knowing what real life is like?

噢，我觉得...我觉得回不去了。这才是美妙之处。就像坐过山车，第一次体验会震撼心灵。但就算给你免费连坐十次，也不可能复刻那种感觉。有些旅程一生只有一次。

Oh, I don't think I don't think you do. I think that's the beauty. I think that's the beauty of the ride is, like, you can ride a roller coaster once and have your mind blown. Tell me you can recreate that if you got a free pass so you could just ride it 10 times. Like, you only get the ride once.

我们做了

We did

今天早上我们上了马特·埃德加的播客。嗯。在一个小录音室里，不过那其实是...我懂了。看起来像是

a we did Matt Edgar's podcast this morning. Mhmm. And it's in this, like it's a little studio room, but it's on the back of a I get it. It looks like

看起来像是地下喜剧俱乐部？K。

It looked Underground comedy club? K.

字面意义上的地下。黑色水泥墙，脏得要命。名字大概叫黑羊什么的。我去小便时洗手间还有呕吐物。感觉就像...就像我们小时候演出的那种场所。

Literally underground. Black cement, dirty as fuck. Called, like, black sheep. There was a spew in the bathroom when I went to pee. Like like the place Feels like a Like the places like the places we grew up playing.

对。然后马特就说，是啊，我每个月在这儿演一场。

Yeah. And Matt is like, yeah. I I I do a set here once a month.

我当时就想，哇靠。

I was like, damn.

挺酷的。

It's pretty sick.

那是什么感觉？

What's that like?

是啊。因为到了这个阶段，就像...

Yeah. Because at this point, like

然后他就要去参加巡演了。对啊。就像是...

And then he's going on warp tour. Yeah. It's like,

我今天还在想这个，因为我们聊到音乐时，我真的在那家伙身上看到了自己的影子。我就想，哦，你现在有机会成为涅槃乐队那样的存在了。

I I saw, like, I literally thought about it today because we were talking about music, and I literally saw myself in that guy. I was like, oh, you get to, like, you get to become like a Nirvana right now.

你是这个圈子的领军人物。

You're the front of the scene.

是啊。

Yeah.

对啊。就在这破楼的地下室里。

Yeah. In the basement of some shit ass building over here.

那才是最酷的部分。就是看着人们来来往往。我觉得成功也是很重要的一环——倒不是说我们曾经食不果腹或必须成功，但现在我们这个年纪已经不同了，结婚生子还有其他责任。我记得以前在墙上涂鸦的日子，我们所有人都住在一个公社式的公寓里。

And it's like that's the that's the that's the coolest part. It's like just seeing people go and go and go. And I think a big part of it too is, like, success. I think not that we were ever starving or we needed to make it because that was never the point, but there is something that's different about being our age now and being married and having kids and having other commitments where I mean, I remember writing writing on the walls. We all lived in a, like, a commune apartment.

不是所有人，但我曾和七个人挤在两居室里，每间房住三人，客厅还睡一个。但只要我们没在闲逛，就全是在搞音乐。没有女朋友，没有老妈要管，朋友们也不像现在这样接二连三地去世。那时候只有纯粹的兴奋和无限的可能。

Not all of us, but I lived in a two bedroom house with seven people, and we had three people in per room and one person in the living room is the best. But, like, if we weren't just hanging out, it was just all music. Had no girlfriend, had no mom. Our friends weren't fucking dying all the time like they are now. Like, we didn't have any of the it was just excitement and limitless ceilings.

嗯。我记得在墙上涂鸦的日子。那台电脑我还留着，想拆出硬盘。当时用GarageBand编所有鼓点...

Mhmm. I remember writing writing on the walls. I still have the computer because I'm trying to get the hard drive out of it. I don't know. In GarageBand programming all of the drums.

懂吗？特别简陋。但我有所有设备，DI模拟器什么的，就那样写歌。不像现在在录音棚里用专业设备，那时就我一个人坐着。

You know? Like, the worst. But, like, I had everything, DI modelers, all of it, and I just wrote the song. It wasn't like, yeah, we're in the studio. We have all this gear, and it was just me just sitting.

其他人在楼下玩《光环》，我在楼上琢磨这段该怎么接。现在再也没这种日子了——得先和五个人的配偶确认这三周大家都有空，刻意离开家，找个地方试图模拟当年那种既孤立又自由的状态。可那时候你并不孤独，只是无事可做。

Everyone's downstairs playing Halo, and I'm just upstairs like, where where's where's this go? How's this go? And like, we don't have that anymore. We have to literally, like, check with five people's spouses to see if these three weeks work for everyone, and then consciously go away from our homes, and then go somewhere and try to simulate the isolation and the freedom that you had. When you weren't isolated, you just didn't have anything to do.

所以现在我们需要用孤立来模仿

So now we need isolation to try to mimic

那种自由...现在的孤立完全不同了。是啊。

the freedom that we isolation is so different than Yeah. It's yeah.

这个嘛...你还记得蒂姆·肯尼迪被水刑的事吗？有印象吗？

It's Well, it's because, you know, it's do you ever remember when Tim Kennedy got waterboarded? You You ever remember that?