#987 - Lisa Feldman Barrett博士 - 情绪、焦虑与大脑健康的新科学

我们每个人体验情感的方式有多独特？你对焦虑、愤怒或快乐的感受与我相同还是不同？

How unique is the way that we all experience emotions? Is your experience of anxiety or anger or joy the same as mine or different?

我认为应该先问：你某次体验到的快乐与另一次是完全相同的吗？已知答案是否定的。快乐、愤怒或任何情绪词汇实际上指向一系列存在差异的具体实例——并非无限差异，而是与所处情境相关。有时愤怒令人愉悦，有时则令人不适。

Well, I think the proper question to start with is your experience of joy on one occasion exactly the same as your experience of joy on another occasion. And I think what we know is the answer is no. It isn't. That joy or anger or any other word for emotion really refers to a population of instances that are variable, not infinitely variable, but variable and tied to the situation that you're in. So sometimes anger is pleasant, and sometimes it's unpleasant.

愤怒时可能精力充沛，也可能萎靡不振；血压可能升高、降低或维持不变，这取决于你采取的行动。而愤怒时的行为表现本就千差万别。

Sometimes it's you're full of energy during anger, and other times you're not. Sometimes your blood pressure goes up. Sometimes it goes down. Sometimes it stays the same, depending on what actions you're taking. And your actions differ in anger.

对吧？人们愤怒时皱眉的概率约35%，虽高于随机概率，但意味着在西方文化——准确说是东西方都市文化中（这是元分析证据），65%的愤怒表达并不通过皱眉。

Right? People scowl in anger about 35% of the time, which is more than chance. But that means 65% of the time, people express anger in this culture, in Western cultures. Actually, I should say in urban cultures because it's in the East and the West. This is meta analytic evidence.

65%的情况下，愤怒时你会用其他面部表情：可能愤怒地微笑、愤怒地哭泣，或是沉默坐着谋划如何击败对手。

65% of the time, you're doing something else with your face in anger. You know? You might smile in anger. You might cry in anger. You might sit silently and plot the demise of your enemy in anger.

而半数皱眉时刻其实与愤怒无关。关键在于：这些差异虽非随机，但愤怒并非单一体验，快乐亦然。所以当问'你的快乐体验与我相同吗'时——

And half the time when you scowl, you're not angry. You're feeling something else. So the point being that, you know, all this variation is not random, but it's not, but it's not you know, anger isn't one thing. Joy isn't one thing. So when you ask the question, is your experience of joy the same as mine?

实质是在问：我们关于快乐的词汇库是否相同？快乐实例的分布特征是否一致？大概率不同。但必须有足够重叠才能实现有效沟通。

I think what you mean is to say, is your vocabulary of joy the same as mine? Is your distribution of joy? Is your population of instances the same as mine? And, probably not. But there there has to be enough overlap that we can communicate about it or else we wouldn't be communicating.

对吧？

Right?

这意味着，描述感受所需的语言广度某种程度上能解锁更深刻丰富的情绪体验。

That suggests that the breadth of language that you have to be able to describe the things that you're feeling unlocks in some way or enables you to have a deeper or richer emotional experience.

确实。语言载体虽重要，但核心在于概念认知能力——这常与词汇关联却非必然。人们常误以为仅靠更换标签就能丰富体验，这是种误解。

Yeah. I think that the, you know, the focus on words, on language, is there, but it's language isn't really the point. The point is your ability to your concepts or your knowledge. So that tends to be linked to words, but words aren't really necessary. I think this is a constant confusion that people have, that if you just label your experience differently, you know, you'll have a richer experience.

这完全不是事实。但通常情况是，词语是学习概念的邀请函。它们是知识的邀约，这就是它们的作用方式。词汇量越大，你掌握的概念可能就越多，而这将带来更丰富的情感生活。

And that's not true at all. But it does tend to be the case that words are invitations to learn concepts. They're invitations for knowledge. That's how they work. And the more vocab the larger your vocabulary is, the more concepts you probably have, and that's what's gonna lead to a richer emotional life.

除了词汇之外，有什么更好的方式来思考情感丰富性？

What's a better way to think about emotional richness beyond just the words?

实际上，背后的机制是大脑正在接收来自身体感官表面的信号——眼睛、耳朵、鼻子，以及体内对葡萄糖、氧气、肌肉拉伸或收缩等反应的监测。大脑被这些信号淹没，必须解读它们。其方式是通过调用或重建与当下相似的过往经历。相似事物的集合称为类别，而类别的表征就是概念。所以本质上，大脑是在从信号中创造意义。

Well, really what's happening under the hood is that your brain is receiving signals from the sensory surfaces of your body, from your eyes, from your ears, from your nose, and all the surfaces inside your body for glucose and oxygen and, you know, the stretching of muscles or the contraction muscles and so on. So your brain is being flooded really with these signals, and it has to make sense of these signals. And the way that it does is by calling on instances or reinstating instances from the past that are similar to the present. A group of things which are similar to one another is called a category, and a representation of a category is a concept. So, basically, your brain is making meaning out of signals.

大脑并不知道心率加快在心理学上有什么客观意义——心率上升本身并无固有含义。大脑必须赋予其意义。你过去的经历越多样，掌握的词汇或概念越多，就能更灵活地构建意义。就像篮子既可以装蔬菜，也能当武器、门挡，必要时还能作椅子——通过在不同情境下采取不同行动，你可以用多种方式赋予它意义。心率加快也是如此。

Your brain doesn't know what an increase in heart rate means in some there is no objective meaning psychologically speaking of a raise of a increase in heart rate. Your brain has to make sense of that. And the more varied experiences you have in the past, the more words or concepts that you the more words you know, the more concepts you've learned gives you more flexibility for making meaning. So in the same way that, you know, a basket can be something to carry vegetables in, or it could be a weapon, or it could be a door prop, or, you know, you could use it as a chair if you needed to, That is the structure you could make meaning of it in a lot of different ways by acting on it in different ways in different situations to suit your goals. The same is true for an increase in heart rate.

对吧？一道闪光或一声巨响也是这样。你的解读方式虽非无限，但确实存在灵活性。这正是你情感生活最终赖以存在的基础。

Right? Or a flash of light or a loud sound. You have some you don't have infinite flexibility, but you have some flexibility in how you create meaning. And that is ultimately what your emotional life derives from.

意义在这里扮演什么角色？它如何与感觉、情绪、叙事相互关联？为什么...

What's the role of meaning here? How how does that slot in in amongst sensation, emotion, story? Why does it

这个问题有点反直觉，但理解的关键在于：你的大脑被困在一个名为颅骨的黑暗无声盒子里。它接收的感官信号是世界或体内某些原因导致的结果，但大脑接触不到原因，只能接触到结果。这就是哲学家所称的'逆问题'。

Well, you know, well, I think the the way to understand this is it's a little counterintuitive, but, basically your brain is trapped inside a dark silent box called your skull. And it's receiving these sensory signals, which are the outcomes or the effects of some set of causes in the world or in your own body. But your brain doesn't have access to the causes. It only has access to the outcomes, to the effects. This is what philosophers call an inverse problem.

你只能根据结果猜测原因。比如听到一声巨响——可能是摔门声、雷鸣，或是枪响。

You have to guess at what what caused some outcome. You only know what the outcome is. You don't know what the cause is. So for example, you hear a loud bang. That loud bang could be a door slamming, or it could be thunder, or it could be a gunshot.

你解读它的首要方式是准备行动。面对大风、暴雨或附近有人开枪，你会采取不同行动。大脑首先制定行动计划，这些信号的原样复本就成为它对接下来将听到、看到、感受到之事的预测。所以并非感觉导致行动，而是行动准备催生了感觉。

How you make sense of it is first and foremost by preparing an action. You'll do different things if it's windy or if it's about to rain or if you or if there's you know, somebody's firing a gun near you. Your brain first makes a plan for action, and the literal copies of those signals become your brain's guesses for what you will hear next, what you will see next, what you will feel next. So sensation doesn't lead to action. Preparation for action leads to sensation.

明白吗？你侦测世界然后反应。大脑正在预测接下来会发生什么。这个预测始于动作准备——为支持骨骼运动系统（手臂、腿、眼睛）的运动而准备的身体运动指令。那些信号的电学复本，实际就是神经元通过轴突侧枝向身体传递运动信号。

Right? You detect things in the world and then react to them. Your brain is making a guess about what's gonna happen next. That guess begins as an action, as a preparation for motor movements in your body to support the movements of your skeletal motor system, your arms, your legs, your eyes. And the copies, the electrical copies of those signals, Literally, neurons are going down to the body to bring motor signals and collaterals off those axons.

这些信号被发送到大脑的其他不同区域，为来自身体及感官系统的输入信号做准备。这意味着，关键在于你如何解读周围环境的信号景观——它对你提出了怎样的代谢需求？需要你采取何种行动？正是这些决定了你在世界中的切身经历与自我体验。

They are sent to the other different parts of your brain to prepare for those incoming signals from the body and from the sensory services of the body. So meaning, it means is really about what you take the signalscape that is around you to mean. What it what is what does it demand of you, metabolically? What does it demand of you in terms of action? That's what determines your experience, your lived experience of yourself in the world.

明白了。当事件发生时，黑匣子会检测这些事件对我们造成的影响。

Okay. So things happen. Black box detects what has occurred to us from those things that are happening.

其实你的大脑并非黑匣子，而是处于暗箱中。大脑始终在进行着内在的信号传递，确实如此。

Well, your your brain isn't a black box. It's in a dark box. Your brain is has intrinsic signaling going on all the time. It's yeah.

黑匣子里的大脑。对。我们拥有过往经验，并据此判断：嘿，这类情况以前发生过。

Brain inside of black box. Yeah. We have experiences from the past. Because of those experiences, we use those to say, hey. This kind of thing happened previously.

因此我可以推断预测，未来也意味着同样的事。上次大狗靠近时我挨咬了，所以这次应该采取相应的应对方式。

Therefore, I can infer, I can predict that looking forward, it also means this thing. The last time that that thing happened, the last time that a big dog came up to me, I got bit. Therefore, this is the appropriate sort of response.

没错。你会预先准备——预测狗可能咬你，于是调动体内变化来支撑身体动作，同时大脑开始准备与上次行动相对应的体验。每个行动、每次经历都是头脑记忆（即预测信号）与感官当下（反映身体状态和外界状况的信号）的结合体。

Yes. And you prepare. So you're predicting that the that the dog might bite you. So you prepare for a set of changes inside your body to support the movements of your body, and you also prepare your brain starts to prepare the experience that corresponded to those actions last time. Every action that you take, every experience that you have is a combination of what's in your head, the remembered past that we you know, our prediction signals, basically, and the sensory present, the signals that are, informing you about the state of the of your own body and the state of the world.

所有体验都是记忆过往与感官当下的混合体。具体情境中可能某方面占比更多，但关键在于——大脑始终在运用过往经验来理解现状、预测未来，而这个未来即刻就会成为你的当下现实。

Every experience is a combination of the remembered past and the sensory present. And in an instance, it could be a little more of one or a little more of the other or a lot of one or a lot of the other. But the point is that the remembered past, what's happened to you in the past is fundamentally what your brain is using your experiences from the past to make sense of to predict the future, which will become your immediate present.

如果大脑持续预测，那么我们生活中真正经历的部分与纯粹预期的部分各占多少？

What if our brain is constantly predicting, how much of our life is actually experienced versus just anticipated?

你在区分预期与体验，但我要指出这个问题前提的微妙之处——所有体验都包含预期成分。

Well, you're making a distinction. I'll sort of pick at the premise of your question there, which is that there's a distinction between anticipating and experiencing, and all experience is partly anticipation.

这个角度很好。或许我该换个问法：那么是否存在真正客观的感知？我们是否永远戴着有色眼镜看事物？

That's a good okay. Maybe I could put it a different way. Is there any such thing as sort of true objective perception then? Do we are we always seeing things?

嗯，你真是直截了当。你知道吗？通常人们会慢慢切入这种话题。这可是个重大的形而上学问题，大家往往循序渐进地讨论。

Well, you really get right to the point. You know? Like, that's like usually people, you know, they ease into that. That's a big metaphysical question. They kind of ease into it.

对吧？那么，你是想听我的个人观点，还是想了解神经科学的解释，或者要我为你梳理整个形而上学的理论框架？

Right? So, well, are you asking me for my opinion, or are you asking me for what I think the brain what neuroscience says, or do you want me to lay out the whole metaphysical, like, landscape for you?

不，就你的观点。我觉得现在人们普遍会得出的明显结论是：哇，在事情发生和我将其内化为自我一部分之间，我确实经常糟蹋当下这个时刻。

No. Your your opinion. We've I think I think that the obvious place that people arrive at at the moment is, wow. I I really sort of molest the present moment a lot between it happening and then me it it being a part of me. For sure.

我曾以为我看到的是事物的本来面目，我以为我的感受符合所处情境。但这位女医生指出事实似乎并非如此。所以我...

I thought I thought that I saw things the way they were. I thought that I felt things that were appropriate given the situation that I'm in. And this doctor lady has said that doesn't seem to really be the case. So I

我不认为... 我觉得人们确实会感受到与情境相符的情绪，但由此产生的假设——可能不是你提出的，你只是传递者——这个假设认为存在某种客观准确性，我认为问题就出在这里。在哲学史以及那些自诩为公共知识分子的评论家中，这场争论已持续数千年：现实是独立于你之外存在、你只是感知并回应它，还是现实完全存在于你的头脑中？

wouldn't Well, I think I think people definitely feel things that are appropriate to the situation that they're in, but the assumption, therefore, is that you're making or that somebody might make maybe not you, but you're just you know, you're the you're the messenger. Yeah. The assumption that, therefore, it's there's some objective accuracy, I think that's where things break down. So in the history of philosophy and also pundits and, I don't know, people who consider themselves to be, you know, public intellectuals, there's a debate, you know, that's gone on for really thousands of years. Like, is reality out there separate from you and you just perceive it and react to it, or is reality, like, all in your head?

你知道，我认为这被称为理想主义。另一种观点则是我所说的传统现实主义，即认为存在一个客观的现实。这场辩论已经持续了几千年。我觉得当一场辩论延续数千年时，很可能是因为人们问错了问题。所以我是这样理解的：

You know, I this is called idealism. The the the other view is what I would call a traditional traditional realism that that, you know, there's an objective reality out there. And that's been the debate for thousands of years. And I think that when a debate goes on for thousands of years, it's probably somebody's asking the wrong question. And so the way I think of it is the following.

现实是相对的，意味着确实存在现实，但这个现实部分是由你参与创造的。明白吗？比如这个物体是实心的，因为我们拥有这样的身体结构。如果我们是亚原子生物，它就不会是实心的，而会大部分是虚空。

Reality is relational, meaning there is a reality, but the reality is partly you're involved in creating that reality. Right? So, you know, this object is solid because we have the kind of bodies that we have. And if we were subatomic creatures, this would not be solid. It would be mostly empty space.

我认为还有更令人信服的例子。刚才那个可能有点难以理解——你是说桌子不是实心的吗？对你们这样具有特定身体结构的生物来说，它确实是实心的。

And there are other, I think, more compelling. That one's a that was that's a hard one to to kind of wrap your head around. Like, are you telling me that the world you know, that that, like, a desk isn't solid? Well, it is solid. It's solid for you and for other, you know, animals like you that have the kind of body that you have.

但理论上可能存在其他类型的生物或有机体，它们不具备这些特征，因此它们的现实会有所不同。这并不意味着...我想说的是，是否存在独立于你之外的现实？没有。客观性以那种方式存在吗？据我所知并非如此。

But there conceivably could be other sorts of animals or other organisms or creatures that don't have those features, and therefore, their reality would be different. And so, again, it doesn't mean that well, I'm saying, is there a reality out there separate from you? No. Does objectivity exist in that way? Not as far as I can tell.

神经科学并不支持这种观点。但这是否意味着一切都在你的脑海中？不是。因为首先你需要那些感觉信号来构建大脑的神经连接，只是这些信号本身并不具备固有意义。

That's not what the neuroscience would suggest. But does it mean it's all in your head? No. Because you need those sensory signals to wire your brain in the first place. They just don't have an inherent meaning.

那么这对你而言意味着什么呢？我是说，它可能带来一些非常有趣的事情，我们可以讨论这些。但从实际意义上讲，这意味着什么？这意味着当有人对你皱眉时，你并非在解读愤怒。你是在猜测那是一种愤怒的表情，但那个动作可能有多种含义。而意义并不存在于信号本身之中。

So what this means for you in I mean, there are some really fun things that it could mean, which we could talk about. But in the practical sense, what does it mean? It means that when somebody scowls at you, you aren't reading anger. You're guessing that that is an expression of anger, but that movement could have multiple meanings. And the meaning is not inherent in the signal.

它是关系性的。对吧？我想这就是——这里有个例子，我认为最能说明问题。所以，我不知道。希望如此吧。

It's relational. Right? I think that's the so, this here's the example I think that's the best that sort of really usually communicates the point well. So I don't know. Let's hope.

通常，你知道，你的视网膜里有不同类型的感光细胞，眼睛里有不同类型的感光细胞。你需要三种感光细胞才能将照射到视网膜的光波——光波会被转化为电信号，传递到大脑——你需要眼睛里有三种感光细胞，才能将大约620纳米波长的光感知为红色。大多数神经典型人类拥有三种视锥细胞，三种感光细胞。所以我们说那个波长的光是红色的。

Usually, you know, there your retina has different kinds of receptors in it in your eye, different kinds of receptors in it. And there are you need three kinds of receptors in order to for a wavelength of light, which will hit your retina and travel the the wavelength of light gets translated into electrical signals, and it goes up to your brain. You need three kinds of receptors in your eye in order for you to experience a wavelength of light around 620 nanometers as red. Most humans neurotypically have three neuro have three cones, three types of receptors. So we say that's that light at that wavelength is red.

玫瑰是红色的。跑车是红色的。口红是红色的。鞋子是红色的。但红色并非物体本身的属性。

The rose is red. The the sports car is red. The lipstick is red. The shoes are red. But red is not really a property of an object.

它不在于光的波长。红色是那种波长与你的眼睛和大脑之间关系的属性。我们说，只有两种视锥细胞的人，他们不会将那个波长的光视为红色。他们会觉得那是一种偏绿的棕色。所以我们说，哦，那个人是色盲。

It's not in the wavelength of light. Red is a property of the relation between that wavelength and what's in your eye and what's in your brain. We say, well, somebody who only has two cones, they don't see that wavelength of light as red. They see it as kind of a greenish brown. So we say, oh, that person is color blind.

因为这暗示着光本身是客观红色的。但那只是因为人类通常有三种视锥细胞。有些人类拥有四种视锥细胞，四种感光细胞，他们也不认为那种光是红色的。他们会看到另一种颜色。如果所有人类都有四种视锥细胞，那么客观上，那个波长的光就不会是红色。

Because it implies that the light is objectively red. But that's only because humans have three cones, three receptors neurotypically. There are humans who have four cones, four types of receptors, and they don't see that light as red either. They see it as a different color. And if all humans had four cones, then objectively, that wavelength of light would not be red.

它会是其他某种颜色。而我们这些有三种视锥细胞的人会对那种颜色色盲。所以关键在于，我们所谓的客观，实际上是在抬高人类的共识。我们将某些人类的特定体验抬高为客观，而其他人的体验则被视作其他东西。我们本质上是在优先考虑我们自己，我们自己的生物学，并称之为客观。

It would be some other color. And those of us with three cones would be color blind to that color. So the point being that what we call objective is really we are elevating a human consent. We're elevating certain experiences of certain humans as to be objective and other people's to be something else. And so we're prioritizing our own ourselves, our own biology, essentially, and we're calling it objective.

而这基本上就是

And that's pretty much what

我们在更大范围内所做的，作为人类。是的。我我认为从功能上讲，需要某种方式——如果那边有个皱眉的表情，它可能意味着五万种不同的事情之一。那样的话我一天要花很长时间才能过完。

we do on a large scale, like as humans. Yeah. I I think functionally, need some way Could be if if it was there's a scowl over there. Well, that could mean one of 50,000 different things. It would take a long time to get through my day.

你知道吗？我我但是

You know? I I But

它不会。但它确实不会。这就是大脑的神奇之处。这正是商业问题的核心。商业问题在于存在大量变数，而你的大脑必须理解这些变数。

it doesn't. But it doesn't. That's the that's the amazing thing about the brain. Is it is this is the business problem. The business problem is there's a lot of variation, and your brain has to make sense of it.

你的大脑需要分辨哪些信号有意义，哪些是噪音可以忽略。它不仅仅接收一个皱眉的表情，而是吸收整套信号组合，并基于过去的模式进行理解。真正令人惊叹的是，我们天生具备处理这种变数的能力，只是我们的分类过程太过自动化了。

Your brain has to figure out which signals mean something, which signals are noise, can be ignored. And your brain isn't just taking in a scowl. It's taking in an entire ensemble of signals, and it's making sense of those based on patterns from the past. So the really amazing thing is that we are equipped to deal with that kind of variation. And it's just that we categorize so automatically.

我们如此自动化地赋予意义，以至于认为意义本就存在于世界中，认为分类是客观存在的。但它们并非存在于世界，也不仅存在于我们脑中——它们是关系性的真实。无论你多么自信（我也是个相当自信的人），但神经科学清楚地表明：我们无法真正解读他人，动作无法被直接解读。

We make meaning so automatically that we think the meaning is inherent in the world, that the categories are in the world, but they're not in the world. They're also not only in our heads, they are relationally real. And no matter how confident you are, I am also someone who's pretty confident about my But I am tempered by the fact that the neuroscience is very clear. We don't read people. Movements can't be read.

它们的情感意义不能像书页上的文字那样被读取。无论你多么自信，你的自信感并不能证明你感知的有效性。

The emotional meaning of them can't be read like words on a page. No matter how confident you are, your feeling of confidence is not an indicator of the validity of your perception.

是的。这很棒。我觉得这是个非常美妙的总结方式。它至少对我意味着几点：其一是，哇...

Yeah. That's great. It's a really lovely way to sort of bring that into land, I think. The it it means a couple of things, at least to me. One would be, wow.

我是否真的能很大程度上掌控自己看待世界的方式、事物对我的意义，以及如何由我自己来诠释和编码一段经历？

I can I really have a good bit of agency over how I see the world, what things mean to me, the way that an experience can be interpreted and encoded by myself?

信号被体验的方式... 重点不在于你在诠释自己的经历（虽然我们可能也会这么做），而是从这些我们不断处理的信号中构建出体验的过程。

The way that a sit the way that signals can be experienced. It's not that you're interpreting your experience. I mean, you we may do that also. But the formation of experience out of these these signals that we that we're constantly, processing.

这还让我想到：有多少次人们把坏情绪误认为是脱水、低血糖、睡眠不足？我记得你讲过个故事——你在初次约会时得了肠胃炎，却把胃部不适误认为了心动。

The other thing it makes me think is how often are people who are in a bad mood mistaking their bad mood for mistaking dehydration or low blood sugar or a lack of sleep or or I remember you saying some story about you you got a stomach bug on a first date and and and miss miss butterflies for something else that was happening in your stomach. And Yeah. I

我真希望这不是真的。但愿这只是我编的故事，但不幸它确实发生过。当时我很惊讶，心想'我肯定对这人特别有欲望'，实际上那只是流感的前兆。

I wish I wish that were not true. I wish I just made that story up, but, unfortunately, I didn't. It it actually happened. I I was surprised, and I thought, well, I must be really lusting after this person when really what I had was the beginnings of the flu. But,

是啊，我们受制于这些信号对吧？无论是内在还是外在的... 或者说并非完全受制？

yeah, we are, at the mercy of the signals, right, both internal and external and in some not at the mercy?

嗯，既是也不是。我认为这正是了解大脑运作原理的价值所在。听着，当我一天结束、精力耗尽、疲惫不堪时，对我来说感觉就像世界末日。有时确实会出现这种感受——仿佛天都要塌了。

Well, yes and no. I think this is why I think it's really useful to know something about how brains work. Listen. When I'm at the end of the day and I have no spoons left and I'm exhausted, and to me, it feels like the world is ending. And it really does happen sometimes where I feel like the world is ending.

就像我再也承受不了任何事，所有东西都糟透了。这时我必须强迫自己说：好吧，你只是代谢透支了。去睡觉，养足精神。明天会更好。

Like, I just can't deal with one more thing and everything is awful. I just have to grab a hold of myself and say, okay, you're metabolically depleted. Go to bed. Get some sleep. Tomorrow will be a better day.

但当时并不这么觉得。我的意思是...那种感觉就像...你知道一切都糟透了对吧？但我清楚科学依据：你所有的体验部分取决于——你感知外部世界的方式，部分源自身体传递给大脑的信号。正因明白这点，我比原本能掌握更多自主权。

But it doesn't feel like that. It's not like I can I mean, it's I feel like, you know, everything is horrible? And but I'm aware of the evidence. The is that everything that you experience is partly The way that you experience the outside world is partly due to what's going on in your body as it is relayed to your brain. And so because I'm aware of that, I do have more agency than I would otherwise.

当然，有时仍会不受控地感到崩溃。

It still automatically happens that I will feel like shit sometimes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

频率可能比我愿意承认的更高。但我也明白，这种自主权与我们想象中的不太一样。明白吗？掌控自身体验的过程，远比我们想象的更艰难。

More often than I would like to admit maybe. But I'm also aware the agency, I think, looks different than than what we imagine agency to be like. You know? Getting control over your, your experience doesn't look exactly the way we imagine it to. It's much harder to do than we would like.

这需要比任何人期望的更长时间、更多练习。虽然个体差异存在，但每个人都有机会获得更多自主权——这始于对内在机制的些许理解。

It takes a lot longer, a lot more practice than anybody would wish. Some people have more options than others, but everybody has the opportunity for a little more agency. That begins with understanding a little bit about, what's happening under the hood.

你如何看待体验中的自我与介入的自我之间的关系？比如深夜陷入末日恐慌的丽莎，和轻声安慰'你或许只需喝杯茶睡觉'的丽莎——你认为这两种状态有何关联？

How do you come to think about that relationship between the experiencing self and the one that steps in? The what the how do you think about the difference between apocalyptic Lisa at the end of the day and gently reassuring Lisa saying you probably just need to have a cup of tea and go to bed. What what is that relationship?

茶到底有什么魔力...

What is it about tea that is so

...这么英国范儿

so British. So

不。但我很好，我是加拿大人，所以可能我们共同点在于喝茶。但实际上我发现一杯茶——我不知道茶有什么魔力，或许是因为围绕茶的所有神话，比如那些茶具之类的。你呢？是的。

No. But I'm well, I'm Canadian, and so maybe that we have tea in common. But I do actually find a cup of tea just I don't know what it is about tea, but it could just be the whole mythology around tea, like in all the all of the paraphernalia tea. Yourself. Yeah.

我不知道。但确实有。我是说，我倾向于认为茶有某种客观属性，但也许这只是相对于你而言？嗯。基于我们的——

I don't know. But there is yeah. I mean, I'm tempted to say there is something objective about tea, but maybe it's only in relation to you know? Mhmm. Into our based on our

远离泡茶的神圣仪式和闻着茶香的过程。

that away from the sacred ritual of making the tea and smelling it brew.

对。对。对。还有拿出你最喜欢的马克杯之类的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And pulling out your favorite mug and whatever. Yeah.

但我想说的是，你并没有多个自我。懂吗？你只有一个大脑。而你的大脑不断与身体对话——我是说，我们也喜欢说与世界对话，但你只能通过身体的感官表面来认识世界。所以你的大脑实际上是在模拟你的身体。

So but what I would say is you don't have multiple selves. You know? You have one brain. And your brain in conversation constantly with your body and the sick I mean, we like to say with the world too, but you only know the world through the sensory surfaces of your body. So your brain is really modeling your body.

这种持续的对话——它也在向大脑传递世界的状况——就是你的心智。其外在表现就是你的心智。所以我们，你知道，我们有个笛卡尔式的拐杖。懂吗？就像哲学家笛卡尔著名地将身体和心智、物质和精神割裂开来，仿佛它们是分离的。

That constant conversation, which is informing the brain also on the conditions of the world, that is your mind. The manifestation of that is your mind. So we, you know, we have a like, I use a Cartesian crutch. You know? Like Descartes famously was a philosopher who famously bifurcated, you know, the body and the mind and, you know, the physical and the mental as if they're separate things.

但它们其实并非分离的。你的每一种感受、每一个知觉、每一个心理活动都有其物理基础。但在语言上，把大脑自动完成的事归为大脑活动，把有意识完成的事归为心智活动，是个有用的划分。所以我有时会说，你的大脑做了这个，而你有意识地做了那个。但归根结底，都是你的大脑。

And they're really not separate things. Every feeling you have, every perception every every mental thing that occurs has some some physical basis. But there it's a useful device linguistically to talk about the things that your brain does automatically as happening in your brain and the things that your brain does with volition as happening in your mind. So I will sometimes say, well, your brain does this versus you have control. But really, it's all your brain.

那为什么大脑会让某些事物进入意识，而忽略其他？没人知道答案。有很多理论。比如，这些自动处理如何进行，而我们有时又能通过注意力来转移信号？人们或许略知它是如何发生的，但没人明白为何如此。

So why does your brain make itself aware of some things and not others? Nobody knows the answer to that question. And, there are lots of ideas. Like, how is it that this automatic stuff can go on, but yet sometimes we can sometimes use attention to kind of shift, the signaling? Nobody understands they might understand a little bit about how it happens, but nobody understands why it's happening that way.

所以，并不是说我有一个末日般的自我——我丈夫有时会在我，你知道，当我开始抱怨时，他会说：还有其他小矮人来拜访你吗？

So, it's not like I have, an apocalyptic self and, my son my husband sometimes will when I'm you know, I'll just be like, I I need to complain to you. I need to complain about this. Or sometimes I won't even ask. I'll just start to complain. And he'll be like, are there any other dwarves visiting you?

比如瞌睡虫、暴躁鬼、饿死鬼、怕冷鬼什么的——就像在问：还有其他像你这样的小矮人吗？但关键在于这都是你。就像现在，克里斯，我可以专注你的脸，或背景里那盏粉色的灯，或是空调微微的送风声。

Like, you've got sleepy and grumpy and, you know, hungry and, you know, chilly, you know, just like, is there any are there any other dwarves who's that's like you. Yeah. You know? The thing is it's all you. In in the same way that, you know, right now, you know, Chris, I can focus on your face or I can focus on that pink light that's kind of in the background or I can focus on I can hear the air conditioning blowing a little bit in the background here.

这就是我在注意力引导下将某些特征置于前景，而将其他特征置于背景。因此，在任何时刻你都可以这样做。你可以练习这样做。对人类而言，这些特征并不总是当下的，它们也可能是你预测未来会出现的特征。

That is I'm foreground with attention, I'm foregrounding certain features, and I'm backgrounding other features. And so at any given moment, you you can do that. You can practice doing that. And for a human, those features aren't always in the moment. They can also be features that you predict will be occurring later.

对吧？我现在可能感到精疲力尽，可能觉得世界此刻就要终结或一切都很糟糕，但我意识到——我可以专注于这个事实：根据我长期的经验，只要我能睡个好觉、泡个热水澡、喝杯好茶、好好休息，明天早上很可能就不会有这种感觉了。我认为这真正深刻之处在于，我知道这是真的。作为神经科学家，我明白当下的体验是内在与外在因素共同作用的结果。

Right? So I may feel exhausted now, and it may feel like the world is ending now or that everything is terrible now, but I'm aware of the fact I can focus on the fact that probably tomorrow morning, based on my long history of experience, if I just can get some sleep, have a hot bath, have a nice cup of tea, get some sleep, I won't feel this way in the morning. And I think the thing that's really to me profound about this is I know this to be true. I mean, I know this. As a neuroscientist, I know that my experience in the moment is a combination of what's in here and, you know, what's out here.

但这并不能改变我感觉整个世界都在向我压来的体验。它确实给人这种感觉。而现在我几乎能自动想起：这不过是感官当下与记忆过去的构建，此刻我还可能拥有其他体验。正因如此，虽然记不清是谁说的——这不是我的原话，可能在我邮件签名档里——但希望是一种练习。

But that doesn't change my experience of everything feeling like the like world is closing in on me. And it it really does feel that way. And it requires I can pretty automatically now remember that it's just it it you know, this is a construction of the sensory present and the remembered past, and that there are other possible experiences in the moment that I could be having. And that's why I think like, I can't remember the person who said this, but it's this is not my quote. It's actually in my I think in the footer of my email, but, my my email signature.

希望是一种练习。这意味着如果意义最终根植于新陈代谢与运动，那么你总是从预测开始。

But, like, hope is a practice. You know? Hope is a practice. What does that mean? It means that if meaning ultimately is grounded in metabolism and movement, you always begin a prediction.

大脑首先预测一系列行为动作，这些预测催生了你的生活体验。因此你可以刻意练习，可以有意识地投入体验，通过当下努力为自己培养特定体验。当这种练习足够频繁时，它们就会自动化，成为大脑未来可自动调用的预测模板。如果你想改变自己，其实无法回到过去修改历史。

The brain begins with predicting a a set of behaviors, a set of actions that then gives rise to your lived experience, then you can practice. You can deliberately engage in experiences. You can deliberately cultivate experiences for yourself in the present with effort that, if you do it frequently enough, become automatic and available they become available automatically for your brain to use as predictions in the future. Uh-huh. If you wanna change who you are, you can't really go back into the past and change what happened.

你可以尝试——这正是心理治疗的部分意义。但真正能做的是改变当下，这将让你的大脑在未来做出不同的预测。随之你会采取不同行动，在世界上获得不同的自我体验。我认为真正的能动性就在这里。

You could try. That's what therapy is for in part. But what you can do is change the present, which will equip the brain, your brain, to predict differently in the future. And as a consequence, you will do different things and experience yourself differently in the world. And that's where the real agency is, I think.

你认为这两种实践中哪种更有力量？是回溯过去尝试改变对历史事件的解读意义，还是通过改变当下行为来创造新的'记忆投资'，以供未来提取？

Which do you think is a more powerful practice between the two? Going back to try and change your retrospective story meaning of the past, revisiting things that have occurred, or creating this new investment to then be, paid down, memory dividend for you to withdraw from in future by changing what you're doing right now?

可能所有治疗师都会讨厌我这么说，但重塑过去事件意义的成功率参差不齐。这并非徒劳，但比投资当下要困难得多。就像锻炼——你当下投入能量，有时甚至制造不适，都是为了未来更好的自己。

Well, maybe every therapist will hate me for saying this, but I think that there's varied success with going back into your past and trying to change the meaning of what's happened. It's not futile, but it's, I think, much harder than investing in the present. You know, it's like exercise. You your exercise, you invest literally invest energy in the present. Sometimes you make yourself really uncomfortable in the present in order to equip yourself to be better in the future.

你正在构建更健康未来的自己。我说的不仅是锻炼肌肉或增强心血管系统，大脑同样适用。我认为两种方式都有用，但投资当下体验——比如改变处境，你完全可以起身走动，通过肢体移动就能改变生活体验。

You know, you're building a better, healthier, you know, future you. And that's a little bit like what I'm saying. You can do it not just with, you know, building bigger muscles or, you know, a a more robust cardiovascular system, but you can also do it it it also works with the brain that you can so I think that probably both are useful, but investing in experiences now, changing your situation, for example, you can you can literally get up and move. Go for a walk. Like, literally move your body.

你也可以不移动肌肉，仅改变关注焦点——这本质上如同改变环境。关键在于培养灵活性，让自己未来对体验方式有选择权。所以我认为没有绝对优劣，二者都各有其作用。

That will change your lived experience. But you can also, just change what you're focusing on, and you cannot even move a muscle and stay put in the present room. But but change what features you're focusing on, and that can that is functionally like a change in environment that can change your experience. And so what is useful, I think, is the flexibility to equip yourself with the flexibility to have a choice later about how you experience things. I so I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, but I think they're both probably have a role to play.

但我认为其效用——我不确定。如你所见，我犹豫是否该说试图重新诠释过去是无益的，因为我确实认为它扮演着某种角色。

But I think the utility I think we I don't know. I'm I'm I'm hesitant, as you can see, to say that trying to tell a different story about your past is not useful because I do think it has a it does have a a role to play, I think.

保持外交辞令是公平的——我必须假设，由于近因效应（这是人之常情），你最近的经历...这引出了个有趣问题。依恋理论中，你的神经系统编码了亲密与疏远的含义，比如黑暗中有人接近你与否，或身处密闭空间等。我原以为新体验会覆盖旧体验——比如最近几次待在狭小空间都安然无恙，为何这不能消除我之前的幽闭恐惧？

Being diplomatic, which I think is is fair, I have to assume, because we'll have a recency bias, everybody's got one, that experiences that you had oh, this is gets an interesting question. Attachment theory, the the the way that your nervous system has encoded what this means to be close to someone or far away for them to this person to approach you in a dark alley or not, for you to be in a closed space or whatever. I would have assumed that newer experiences would have overwritten older experiences. That this thing that we've done a couple of times most recently, I've been in a small space, and it was okay. Why does that not get rid of claustrophobia, let's say, that I had previously?

是的。出人意料的是，机制并非如此。证据表明原始记忆与新记忆会共存，旧记忆永不消失且极易被激活。消除旧记忆的唯一方式是让承载它的神经元消亡。

Yeah. So surprisingly, that's not how it works. And, the evidence suggests that, the original meaning and the new meaning are both there, but you never lose the old meaning. And it can and it can be reinstated really easily. So the only way to get rid of an old meaning is to lose the neurons that that manifest it.

有个相关科学案例：约四五十年前，纽约洛克菲勒大学有位学者研究鸣禽脑中名为「鸣唱核」的神经元集群——这些核团会随季节增大缩小。这位科学家痴迷于探究其背后的机制。

You know, there's an interesting scientific I think that's an interesting scientific kind of story about this that a number of years ago, like decades, maybe, I don't know, forty, fifty years ago, maybe more now, some guy in Rockefeller University in New York was studying why it is that songbirds the size of the clusters of neurons in their brains called the song nuclei. The like, so a nucleus is just like a clump of neurons that, work together. The in in songbirds, they these nuclei grow in size. They they like, new new neurons are there at some parts of the year, and then they get smaller at other parts of the year. And this scientist was, like, super interested in, how's what is this what is this about?

这标志着神经可塑性科学的诞生。他发现了大脑能生成新神经元，后来证实其他动物乃至人类也具备此能力——但人类仅限特定脑区（目前证据指向海马体）。

This was the birth of the science of plasticity. He discovered that brains can birth new neurons. And then it was discovered that other animals can do it, and even humans can do it. But humans can only do it in some parts of the brain in in exactly, I think, one part. There's some evidence, maybe two, but one part of the brain called the hippocampus can birth new new neurons.

随后人们开始追问：为何海马体保留此能力？其实问题本身有误——多数脊椎动物全脑都能再生神经元，人类却退化为仅存于单一脑区。这或许与我们寿命延长有关。

And then people start asking the question, well, why how did this happen that, you know, the hippocampus can can can birth new neurons? But they were asking the wrong question Because it turns out that in vertebrate brains, most animals most vertebrates can they they birth new neurons all over the brain. Humans have lost that capacity. We've only retained it in one part of the brain, but it's been lost everywhere else. And, like, why would that be?

科学家推测：当新神经元替代旧神经元时，其参与的记忆会丢失。记忆并非文件，而是电化学活动的重现模式——我们所谓的「提取」记忆，实质是重新构建电化学活动模式。

And the one potential answer that scientists think about is that we are long lived. And when if you replace one neuron with another neuron, you've lost the memories that that neuron participated in, or you lose part of the memory that the neuron particip what is a memory? A memory isn't like a file. It's a pattern of electrical and chemical and maybe magnetic. We don't know.

记忆并非通过单个神经元存储，而是动态神经元组合的协同放电。就像棒球队轮换球员——若失去部分神经元，记忆就会缺失。因此人类能保持记忆长达数十载。

But definitely electrical and chemical activity that is remanifesting itself. So memories aren't, you know, retrieved, even though that's the word we use. They're not really retrieved like you would retrieve a file from a file drawer. They are reconstituted, reimplemented. They are constructed, reconstructed, patterns of electrical activity with electrical electrochemical activity.

神经元持续更替维持着记忆，如同球队换人。但若关键神经元缺失，记忆便随之消逝。正因如此，我们才能将记忆保存五六十年甚至更久。

And if you lose the neurons that are part of the I mean, a given memory doesn't just have one neuron. It doesn't just have one, you know, one assembly of neurons. There are neurons that are constantly switching out to maintain the memory. You know, like like, I don't know, like players on a baseball team or something. You know?

神经元不断轮换，但若损失过多，记忆就会瓦解。所以我们不会轻易遗忘——那些持续数十年的记忆正是这样留存下来的。

Like, they're they're constantly switching out. But if you lose some of those, the memory is is lost. So we don't lose our memories. We remember things for fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety years. Right?

所以我们的大脑记忆容量是有限的。意思是，到了某个阶段——这也是现在科学家们讨论的话题——我们年纪越大越记不住事情，可能是因为大脑‘存满了’，因为没有新的神经元产生，那些记忆本质上无处安放。就像没有新的神经元被释放出来参与记忆存储。

So we and we have a limited capacity for memory. Meaning, at some point and this is something that, you know, scientists now talk about. Like, maybe our inability to remember things as we get much older is because, like, we're we're getting filled up because we don't have new neurons. There's no place for those memories to to to go, essentially. Like, there's no there's no there are no new neurons that are, like, freed up.

明白吗？单个神经元并不只参与一个记忆。它可以参与数百或数千个记忆，因为它是构成记忆的更大神经集群的一部分。但我们记忆的有限性——或者说，我们记忆的广延性其实源于神经元能长期保留，而大脑大部分区域不会新生神经元这个事实。

You know? So one neuron doesn't participate in one memory. It can participate in hundreds or thousands of memory because it's it's in an ensemble a larger ensemble that create the memory. But our the limited nature of our of our memories or well, let's put it this way. The expansive nature of our memories comes from the fact that we keep our neurons for a really long time, and we don't birth new ones in most places in the brain.

但这也限制了随着年龄增长我们能记住的内容。

But that also puts a limit on what we can remember as we age.

我记得之前看过文章说，已经形成的髓鞘质无法被清除，你只能在表层覆盖更易调用、更常用的新髓鞘质。所以本质上不存在‘戒除习惯’，只是选择在此刻驱动哪个习惯，或编码哪个新习惯。

I remember seeing something written a while ago about there is no such thing as sort of getting rid of myelin sheets that have been laid down. You can simply lay down ones that are more easy to access, more commonly accessed over the top. So, basically, there's no such thing as not driving a habit. There is simply choosing between which habit you want to drive here or which one you want to encode.

对，是的。

Yeah. Yes.

这种说法有多少真实性？

How much truth is in that?

嗯，你说的有一定道理，但魔鬼藏在细节里。首先髓鞘质是包裹轴突的脂肪鞘，它不负责存储体验内容。

Well, yeah. I mean, I there is some truth in what you're saying, but it's the devil's in the details. Right? So first of all, a myelin sheath is the fatty sheath that goes around the axon. It's not responsible for content of your experience.

它负责传导速度。如果轴突包裹良好——不知道听众是否都了解，轴突是神经元胞体的突起，负责传递电信号，这是神经元交流并产生动作和体验的方式。电信号沿轴突传导的速度直接与神经元粗细及包裹它的髓鞘质厚度相关——髓鞘质起到导电作用。当然还有其他非髓鞘因素也影响传导速度。

It's responsible for transmission speed. So if you have an axon that is well wrapped so an axon does everyone who I mean, you don't know what everyone who listens to this knows. But, you know, an axon is a is a, like, protrusion from the cell body of a neuron that carries an electrical signal that is part of how neurons talk to each other and create, you know, your movements and your lived experience. The speed with which the electrical signal moves down the axon is directly related to the thickness of the neuron and the amount of myelin on the neuron that wraps it for, like, conductive purposes. It's also there are other things which affect transmission speed too that aren't aren't the myelin.

比如神经胶质细胞会包裹在神经元交流的接点（突触）周围，这也影响信号传递速度。关键点在于髓鞘质确实会流失——例如难治性抑郁症患者脑中某些神经通路的轴突就会出现髓鞘脱落。

Like, there are glial cells, other cells that wrap themselves around the junctures between where neurons talk to each other called a synapse. And that also affects the transmission speed of signaling. But the point being that you can you can lose myelin. That happens. For example, in intractable depression, you your, the myelin starts to to on certain tracks in your brain, certain certain groups of axons lose some of their myelination.

而深部脑刺激治疗能让髓鞘再生，这正是该疗法有效的部分原因。但一旦记忆完成巩固——即神经元已生长出对形成记忆信号集群至关重要的新受体——除非神经元发生物理改变，否则要遗忘这段记忆会非常困难。

And when you do deep brain stimulation, that grows the myelin back. That's partly why that treatment is really useful. But but it is the case that once you have a memory if you've consolidated that memory, which means that your neurons have grown new little receptors that are important for making an ensemble of signals that is the memory. If you've consolidated that memory, you will have a hard time on remembering it unless there is physical change to your neurons.

那会是什么？

What would that be?

痴呆症。就像，你会失去...没错，你会失去神经元。

Dementia. Like, you lose Right. You lose neurons.

脑袋被刺穿。

Spike through the head.

脑袋被刺穿。对。不过，如果能预防研究...我觉得我刚才说的挺准确。我很确定这是事实。我不知道还有其他什么方式...可能你会有记忆困难，比如话到嘴边却说不出来那种情况。

Spike through the head. Yeah. However, if you can prevent research I think that's accurate, what I just said. I'm pretty sure that's accurate. I don't know of any other way that you would I guess you might have a hard time remembering something, you know, like you have tip of the tongue or something like that.

如果你像我一样变老，或者很久没用那段记忆，那么有些...可能会...

If if you get if you're getting old like me, or you haven't used the memory in a while, then some of the there could be, know

但并没有真正的修剪过程发生，或者这类功能的萎缩。

But there's no sort of real pruning going on or, like, atrophy to this sort of stuff.

其实是有修剪的，但我不认为...我是说，修剪确实会发生——用进废退。儿童大脑的修剪非常剧烈，成人脑部也有但更缓慢。所有过程都会变慢。

Well, there is pruning, but I don't think I mean, pruning, it happen if you don't use it, you lose it. I mean, for sure. Pruning happens very intensely in children's brains. It happens also in adult brains, but slower. Everything happens slower.

要知道，所有调整和修剪在成人大脑中都进行得更慢，而且年纪越大越缓慢。但我不认为那些强烈的记忆会被修剪——或许我们可以称其为压力记忆、威胁记忆之类的。应该说这些记忆有很强的代谢需求，对你的代谢状态影响深远。据我所知这类记忆通常不会被修剪。不过可以通过某些化学手段，服用特定药物来阻止记忆最初的巩固。

You know, all the tuning and pruning happens much more slowly in adult brains, but and and much slower the older you get. But I don't think that there's pruning for really intense memories or memories that have we would call them stressful maybe or threatening or what have you. But I would say that have a strong metabolic demand, that they have a strong impact on your metabolic state. Those memories typically are not pruned as far as I know. What can be done though is certain chemicals, you can take certain drugs that will prevent you from consolidating the memory in the first place.

我认为现有研究正在尝试阻止某些记忆——特别是特定经历——在大脑中形成实质性的物理留存。

And I think there is research going on that attempts to prevent certain memories from really taking hold physically for certain experiences taking hold physically in the brain.

这就像是给创伤经历服用过量的纳洛酮吗？

Is this like the equivalent of taking Narcan for an overdose on a traumatic experience?

有一点儿。有一点儿。是的。

A little bit. A little bit. Yeah.

一点点。你遇到了不好的事。让我们用这个什么，比如抗胆碱能药或者别的什么东西来打击你一下。

A little bit. Bad happened to you. Let's hit you with this whatever, like, anticholinergic or some some something.

没错。我是说，关键在于这是个非常复杂的过程，涉及数百种化学物质。所以如果你阻断其中几种化学物质，记忆巩固就会变得更困难，因此你就无法记住。

Right. I mean, the thing is it's a very complex process, right, that involves, like, hundreds of chemicals. And so if you knock out a couple of the chemicals, you know, the likelihood is that you'll have a harder time consolidating the memory, and therefore, you won't you won't be able to remember.

这太神奇了。真是

That's fascinating. That's so

神奇到你可以拥有...不过确实。抱歉，你继续。

fascinating that you can have. Can But yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.

就是你能对发生的事情进行紧急干预。我听说女性分娩后会接受大量激素或神经化学物质的冲击，这会让她们对经历过的疼痛产生某种回溯性遗忘。

Just that you could have an acute intervention for for something that happens. I've heard that women post childbirth are given a flood of hormone or a flood of neurochemicals that give them a a sort of retrospective pain amnesia about the discomfort that they went through.

这完全是个谣言。

That is such that is like a myth.

哦，我朋友丹尼尔·斯洛斯在他的单口喜剧专场里说过这个。我得去告诉他。

Oh, my friend Daniel Sloss put it in his stand up special. I'm gonna have to tell him.

那是个谬传。我可以听听。

That is a myth. I could listen.

科学能记住的是神话还是个人传说？

Can Scientific remember myth or personal myth?

嗯，我告诉你，我能记得那种疼痛有多剧烈。我丈夫可以作证我记得那种痛感。但我想说的是，关于疼痛有趣的地方在于——如果我让你，克里斯，保持眼睛睁开，然后在你的脑海中想象一个你会吃的红色麦金托什苹果。你能在脑海中隐约看到那个红苹果的影子吗？

Well, I'm telling you that I can remember how painful it was. And my husband can confirm that I can remember how painful it was. But but what I would say is what's interesting about pain, right, is that if I said to you, Chris, I want you to keep your eyes open. And in your mind's eye, I want you to imagine a red Macintosh apple of the sort that you would eat. Can you see the ghost of a red apple in your mind's eye?

大概吧。

Kind of.

对吧？如果我问你——你最喜欢的乐队是什么？就是音乐乐队？

Yeah. Right? And if I or if I asked you to are you you know, if I asked you, what's your what's your what's your favorite band? Like, favorite musical band?

Sleep Token。

Sleep Token.

天啊，我甚至没听说过。

Oh gosh. I don't even know them.

是啊，这个嘛...

Yeah. Well

可见我有多老派了。

That's how old I am.

挺时髦的。

Trendy.

好吧。那你能在脑海里听到他们的某首歌吗？

Okay. Well, can you can you hear one of their songs in your head?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对吧？可能相当生动。对吧？是的。没错。

Right? Pretty vividly probably. Right? Yep. Yeah.

好的。但如果我问，你经历过最痛苦的事是什么？选一件你经历过的痛苦事情。现在试着真正去体会那种痛苦。就像，想象它。

Okay. But if I said, what's the most painful thing that ever happened to you? Pick a painful thing that's happened to you. Now try to actually embody that pain. Like, imagine it.

你能做到吗？

Can you?

某种程度上？

Kind of?

但其实并不完全能。

Not really, though.

有点困难。是的。

With difficulty. Yeah.

你意识到自己曾经处于痛苦中。

You have an awareness that you were in pain.

是的。

Yes.

但你并没有像听到这首歌那样感受到那种痛苦。

But you aren't feeling the pain the way that you're hearing the song.

没错。确实如此。

That's correct. That's correct.

是的。这就是我们称之为内感受信号的一个非常有趣之处，即来自身体感官状态的信号。我们无法完全模拟它。我们的大脑所做的预测，并不能像视觉、听觉或有时味觉那样重现相同的体验，这很有意思。我并不知道有谁确切了解为何会这样，但事实似乎确实如此。

Yeah. So that's a really interesting thing about what we would call interoceptive signaling, signaling from the the sensory, conditions of the body. We can't exactly simulate it. We can't the predictions are that our brains are making don't reinstate the experience in the same way that it will with vision or with hearing or sometimes with taste, which is interesting. And I, you know, don't know that anyone knows why that's the case, but it does seem to be the case.

所以，怀孕和分娩期间确实会发生许多奇特的事情，从荷尔蒙角度来说。当我怀着我女儿即将分娩时，我丈夫在厨房打开一盒Cheerios麦片，我在四个房间外都能闻到。我甚至能分辨出Cheerios和Rice Krispies的区别。我的嗅觉变得异常敏锐，既惊人又有趣。不过我认识的绝大多数女性都清楚记得分娩有多痛苦。

So, I mean, a lot of really funky things do happen in pregnancy and, in childbirth, hormonally speaking. I mean, when I was pregnant with my daughter right before I delivered her, my husband could open a box of Cheerios in the kitchen, and I could be four rooms away, and I could smell it. I mean, I could tell the difference between Cheerios and Rice Krispies or whatever. My sense of smell was really quite, alarmingly and interestingly, intense. But I don't know about I I think the most women I know completely remember how painful childbirth was.

我得去告诉那位在美国各地剧院散播假新闻的朋友。

I'll have to inform my friend who pushed fake news to theaters of people around The United States.

嗯，这可能是个有趣的...可能是个...

Well, it's probably a funny it's probably a

有趣这是个非常有趣的笑话。它可能只是个有用的戏剧工具。我想谈谈焦虑，这个似乎已成为现代世界标志性情绪的话题。你希望更多人了解关于焦虑及其运作机制的哪些知识？

funny It's a very funny joke. It's a very funny joke. It might just be a useful a a useful dramatic tool. I wanna talk about I wanna talk about anxiety, sort of emotion du jour of the modern world, it seems. What do you wish more people knew about anxiety and how it works?

我认为焦虑没有单一成因，但大脑确实在解读信号，而存在其他理解这些信号的方式。焦虑通常出现在充满不确定性和高度唤醒状态（即大脑化学物质浓度升高）的情况下，这时大脑因预测能力下降而试图学习新信号。当存在大量不确定性时，意味着大脑无法制定单一动作计划。

Well, I don't think there's one cause of anxiety exactly, but I do think that, you know, your brain is making sense of signals, and there are other ways to make sense of those signals. So anxiety usually is a you know, it's usually occurring in situations where there's a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of arousal, meaning there's a lot of chemicals. There's a more a higher concentration of chemicals that are involved in your brain attempting to learn that has taken new taken signals because it's not predicting particularly well. There's lot of that's what it means when there's a lot of uncertainty. Your brain can't prepare one motor plan.

它准备了多个计划，却不知道哪个是正确的选择。

It's preparing many, and it doesn't know which one is the one the right one to choose.

这个定义太棒了。尤其是结合我们之前讨论过的预测对未来事件的重要性，这种理解方式非常精妙。

That's such a great definition. That's such a lovely way to to think about it, especially what we've said previously about the importance of prediction for future events.

没错。所以高度唤醒状态不必然意味着焦虑。如果你将这种状态体验为不确定性，你的反应会与体验为焦虑时不同。这不仅仅是贴标签的问题。

Yeah. So, the go to meaning doesn't have to be anxiety. If you if you experience heightened arousal as uncertainty, you do different things than if you experience it as anxiety. And you're not just labeling. It's not labeling.

你正在体现不同的意义。当对某事不确定时你会怎么做？你会主动搜寻信息。

You're embodying a different meaning. You know, And what do you do when you're uncertain about something? You you forage for for for information.

你可以保持好奇。你可以产生兴趣。

You could get curious. You could be interested.

是啊。当你焦虑时你会怎么做？通常会退缩。而有时将高唤醒的不适状态理解为不确定性可能是有益的。

Yeah. Yeah. What do you do, you know, when you're anxious? You usually withdraw. And sometimes there's probably utility in, in experiencing a high arousal unpleasant state as uncertainty.

有项研究（不是我的），是杰里米·贾米森做的，他训练人们将高唤醒状态重新归类或理解为决心。通过这些研究，他帮助人们克服考试焦虑——本质上，他们的高唤醒状态仍在，但因赋予不同意义而体验迥异。消除考试焦虑效用巨大，可能影响一生数十万美元的收入潜力。

There's research, not my research, but research by, a guy named Jeremy Jamieson who, trained people to recategorize or make meaning of their, high arousal states as determination. And he was able to, in these studies, train people to overcome their test anxiety by dissolving it. Basically, their high arousal states remained high, but they experienced it differently because they made a different meaning of it. And there's great utility to getting rid of test anxiety. It can be the difference between mean the difference between hundreds of thousands of dollars over your lifetime in earning capacity.

我个人特别喜欢的例子——我在书里用过也常提及——关于我12岁的女儿。当时她不到1米5，参加空手道黑带考核。她的师父是十段黑带，用眼神就能劈木板那种高手。

My personal ex you know, example that I love that I've used in my book and I talk about sometimes because I love this example. It's an example of my daughter when she was 12. When my daughter was 12, she was barely five feet tall, and she was testing for her black belt in karate. Her sensei was a tenth degree black belt. So this guy, you know, could break a board by looking at it.

对吧？那是个魁梧的壮汉。她必须与高她30厘米的15-17岁男孩对打，通过两轮测试才能获得黑带。师父漫不经心地对她说：让你的蝴蝶列队飞行。

Right? He was just, like, really massively strong guy. And she had to spar these, like, 15, 16, 17 year old boys who were, like, a foot taller than her, in order to, over two dates to to achieve this black belt. And her her sensei, you know, kind of saunters up to her. And he just says, get your butterflies flying in formation.

我当时惊叹：天啊，这太绝了！他没说‘冷静点小女孩’，因为冷静反而误事——在需要激发的表现场景中，你不该平静。

And I was like, oh my god. That is amazing. He didn't say calm down, little girl. Because, actually, calming down would be the wrong thing to do. When you are in a motivated performance situation, you don't wanna be calm.

你需要那种唤醒状态。若将其体验为焦虑，伴随的运动计划会截然不同于将其视为决心或蝴蝶列队。我个人多次运用这个概念——比如TED演讲前，面对千人观众时，我能感到指尖随着心跳震颤。

You want that arousal. But if you experience it as anxiety, the motor plans that come with that are very different than if you experience it as determination or as getting your butterflies in formation. And I personally have used that particular concept multiple times in my life when I've been faced in a motive like, before I gave my TED talk. You know? When I before I gave my TED talk in front of a thousand people, I could feel my heartbeats in my fingertips.

当时身体唤醒度极高，仿佛一点火星就能引爆。但我必须大声告诉自己：这不是焦虑，让你的蝴蝶列队飞行。

Like, that's how much arousal was in my body. I was like, if somebody brought a flame near me, I probably would have combusted. Like, I was just wired. But, you know, I just and I had to say to myself, like, out loud, you know, this is not anxiety. Get your butterflies flying in formation.

因为在那种情境下，你最根深蒂固的自动反应会显现。在我们的文化里，人们总会自动将这类体验理解为焦虑——但你其实有选择权。明白吗？你确实可以选择。

Because under those circumstances, what comes to you is the really is the thing that has been ingrained in you, the most automatic thing. And in our culture, the most automatic thing is to make sense of those experiences as arou as, anxiety. But you do have choices. You know? You do have choices.

我在思考关于不确定性和模糊性的观点。现代世界究竟是什么在为我们提供如此强烈的焦虑燃料？

I'm thinking about that uncertainty and ambiguity point. I'm wondering what it is about the modern world which is providing us with such potent fuel for anxiety to to come through.

你是说如此强烈的燃料对吧。所以我会说，我认为存在很多不确定性。而且

You mean such potent fuel for yeah. So I would say what is I would say there's a lot of uncertainty. And

嗯，确实有很多焦虑。不确定性在哪里？模糊性体现在何处？如果这是那种情绪的主要驱动力之一，它是如何被承受的？

Well, there's a lot of anxiety. Where is the where is the uncertainty ambiguity? How is that being borne through if that's one of the key drivers of that emotion?

是的。我想说的是存在大量不确定性，同时还有很高的代谢需求——虽然我们还没谈到，但你知道大脑最重要的职责就是调节身体机能。人们基本上时刻处于代谢负担状态，部分原因正是源于这种不确定性。神经系统处理不确定性的代价极高，结果导致人们长期处于高度警觉状态，而焦虑就成了他们理解并体验这种状态的本能反应。

Yeah. So what I would say is there's a lot of uncertainty, and there's a lot of metabolic demand there's a lot of, well, we haven't talked about, you know, your brain's most important job is regulating your body and and all of that. But, you know, people are walking around basically metabolically encumbered all the time, and partly that's the case because there's so much uncertainty. Uncertainty is very expensive for a nervous system to manage. And as a consequence, there's a lot of arousal and people are the go to kind of knee jerk, way of making sense of that and experiencing it is anxiety.

因此我认为，我们实际上为自己设计了一个堪称完美的环境——完美到足以让人类神经系统崩溃。我在书里写过这个观点，至今仍坚持这么认为。你想想看，所有可能造成压力的因素，那些让你难以准确预测的事物，简直不胜枚举。

So I think that we've, you know, engineered for ourselves, like, the perfect environment, basically, to bankrupt a human nervous system. And I think that I wrote about this in my book, and I continue to to think that this is the case. You know? That that if you think about all of the moments where in all of the things that could be potentially demanding, you know, making it hard for you to predict well, you could just start to enumerate them. You know?

大多数人睡眠都不充足。虽然现在关于保证睡眠的讨论很多，但现代生活本质上就不是为良好睡眠设计的。我们有电脑、手机，还有各种电子屏幕。

I mean, most people don't get a sufficient amount of sleep. We actually now, you know, there's a lot of discussion now about getting enough sleep, but still we have modern life is not designed really for sleeping well. We have computers. We have phones. We have a lot of screens.

这些屏幕发出的光线会刺激视网膜神经节细胞，扰乱昼夜节律——这绝非小事，而是极其重要的问题。我们摄入的伪食品未必健康，还会干扰身体预测机制。比如喝含人工甜味剂的饮料时，甜味就不再能准确预示血糖浓度。

Those screens have, you know, light in them that stimulates our ganglion cells in our retina that screws up our circadian rhythm. That's not trivial, actually. That's a really substantially important thing. We, you know, we we eat pseudo food that isn't really you know, like, isn't necessarily really healthy and can really screw up your predictions. You know, if you're eating something with or drinking soda or eating things with, like, artificial sweeteners, the taste no longer is a good predictor of the glucose of concentration.

社交媒体更是如此。对人类而言，最大的不确定性来源就是同类。对神经系统最好的东西是人，最坏的也是人。而当今的人际互动方式本身就充满不确定性。

Have social media where mean, of the biggest sources of uncertainty for humans is other humans. The best thing for your nervous system is another human. The worst thing for your nervous system is also another human. And our ways of interacting with each other now are you also somewhat uncertain. You know?

比如有人走过来对你说'嘿，贱人'——这到底是友好的问候还是辱骂？还有经济不确定性，气候变化问题...

Like, somebody walks up to you and goes, hey, bitch. Like, was that, hi, nice to see you, or is that, you know, like, somebody calling you a not nice name? Like, what you know? And then there's also economic uncertainty. There's climate change.

你或许不认为气候变化会直接影响神经系统——无论你是否相信气候变化正在发生。但事实是，气候变化导致空气中二氧化碳浓度微妙改变，而这对脊椎动物神经系统会产生深远影响。

And you wouldn't think climate change, you wouldn't think that that really necessarily I mean, it doesn't matter whether you believe in climate change or not. The thing is that climate change climate change is happening. And, you cannot believe it, but the impact of the change will still impact your nervous system whether you believe it or not. Climate change means that one of the consequences is that there are small changes in carbon dioxide concentrations in the air. And very, very small changes in carbon dioxide concentrations actually have a profound impact on vertebrate nervous systems.

实际上我认为无脊椎动物神经系统可能也会受到影响。

Actually, I think it may also impact on nonvertebrate nervous systems too.

好的。所以你是说，百万分比的增长对我们的情绪系统和对气候系统一样令人担忧？

Okay. So you're saying that the parts per million increase is maybe as much of a concern for our emotional system as our climate system?

嗯，你没有情绪系统，但我想说的是，这同样不是一个...好吧，你知道的

Well, you don't have an emotional system, but I would say it's it's as much of a no. Well, you know

对，对。我们的心理系统，可以这么说吗？

Yeah. Yeah. Our mental system, should we say?

不，是针对你的大脑。针对你大脑控制身体的能力。明白吗？而且，你可能觉得这种区分有点吹毛求疵，但可是你邀请我上你的节目的。

No. For your brain. For your brain's ability to control your body. K. And, you know, you may think of that as that distinction as kind of like splitting hairs, but you invited me on your program.

嘿。你是专家，你在这里是有原因的，其中就包括让我保持清醒。这对今天非常重要。

Hey. You're you're the you're the specialist, and you're here for a reason, keeping me in line is one of them. This is very important for today.

但是，没错，事实证明二氧化碳的微小变化确实会对神经系统产生可测量的影响。而且你知道，在美国还有其他问题。比如校园枪击事件，它们以惊人的频率发生。

But, yes, it turns out that very small changes in carbon dioxide actually has a measurable impact on nervous systems. And you know, I mean And then in The United States, there are also other issues. You know? Like, there are school shootings. There are you know, which happen at alarming frequencies.

对吧？然后还有政治不确定性。不论你是左派还是右派，自由派还是保守派，对每个人来说都有很多不确定性。所以你的神经系统——你的大脑并不会区分说，哦，这是一种不确定性，那是另一种。

Right? And then you also have, like, political uncertainty. And doesn't really matter whether you're on the left or on the right, you know, whether you're a liberal or conservative. There's a lot of uncertainty for everybody. So these your nervous system doesn't your brain doesn't really, like, parse these things and go, well, this is one kind of uncertainty and that's another kind.

不，它们只会相互叠加。它们只会让你的大脑更难正常工作。结果就是某些化学物质的增加，你会体验到这些为兴奋，并解读为焦虑，在其他条件相同的情况下。

No, it just they compound each other. They just make it harder for your brain to do its job. And the result is increases in chemicals that you will experience as arousal, and you will make sense of as anxiety, all other things being equal.

这有点无法逃避。看起来像是一种相当完美的鸡尾酒，创造了一个对很多人来说这会是普遍经历的环境？

It's kind of inescapable. It seems like a a pretty sort of perfect cocktail to to create a an environment that this this would be a common experience for a lot of people in?

嗯，我认为这对很多人来说是普遍经历，但他们将其理解为，比如，哦，我的战斗或逃跑回路过度劳累之类的。但你并没有战斗或逃跑回路。你的大脑里没有这种回路。我认为人们会尝试做一些事情来减轻不适，其中一些——这只是我的推测——但没有证据表明是这样。但基本上，我们知道的是...

Well, I think it is a common experience for a lot of people, but they make sense of it as, you know, like, oh, my fight and flight circuits are, like, overworked or whatever. But you don't have fight or flight circuits. There are no fight or flight circuits in your brain. And I think people do things to try to reduce their discomfort, some of which are, this is just my speculation now, but there's no evidence that this is the case. But basically, we know here's what we do know.

我们通过智能代理的数学模型得知，证据表明，如果我让自己对你而言更可预测，你也会对我更可预测。这对我们双方的神经系统都有益处。我们会更喜欢彼此。而如果我们更喜欢对方，就会更易受彼此影响。所以即便你并非刻意为之，减少不确定性也会带来这种效果。

We know that from mathematical modeling using using intelligent agents, it seems to be the case that if you the evidence suggests that if I make myself predictable to you, you will be more predictable to me. And that's a benefit to both of our nervous systems. We'll like each other more. And if we like each other more, we'll be influenced by each other more. So if you wanted to reduce uncertainty in your not even if you wanted to.

你甚至无需明白这个原理。对吧？当你和那些与你相似、更易预测的人相处时感觉更舒适，你自然会更愿意与他们交往——因为这感觉更好。

You don't even have to know this. Right? If you feel better when you're around people who are like who are similar to you, who you can predict better, you're gonna be around them more because it feels better.

这里还暗示着，如果你想让他人更好地调节你，自身保持行为一致且可预测将会影响他们，进而反作用于你，从而形成...

The the suggestion here is as well that if you want them to regulate you more, behaving in a consistent and predictable manner yourself is going to influence them, which will influence you, which will

没错，正是如此。我认为这可能是人们如今困在自我回音室的原因之一——在所有可接触的信息和经历中，我们看到的是人们主动选择进入观点同质化的信息茧房和社交泡泡，观点的多样性正在持续衰减...

Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, I think that this might be one of the reasons why people are in their own little echo chambers right now where they're out of all of the out of all the information that people and experiences people can expose themselves to, what we see is this, you know, self selection into information bubbles and social bubbles that are where where viewpoints are are being the the diversity of viewpoints is decreasing and

且基本不受挑战。

Unchallenged, largely.

完全不受挑战。我的推测是，这可能因为人们实在不堪重负。想想看，我们甚至还没讨论过——就像我说的，人们吃着伪食品，你可能会问那是什么？

Unchallenged. And I think it it my speculation, right, is that it might be because people are really encumbered. They're really encumbered. I mean, we haven't even talked about the fact that you know, like I said, okay. Well, you know, you're you're eating pseudo food and, you know, you might wonder, well, what is that?

这为何重要？因为饮食和睡眠质量直接影响大脑高效调节身体代谢的能力。如果某刻这种能力暂时缺失，虽不会立即造成伤害，但你会付出微小代价。比如研究表明，若你在进食后两小时内遭遇人际压力...

Why does that matter? Well, it matters because what you eat, how much you sleep, these things actually matter to your brain's ability to properly metabolically regulate your body in an efficient way. And if, you know, you if that if the inability to do so happens in in a given moment, nothing bad's gonna happen to you, but you'll pay maybe a little tax. Right? Like, evidence suggests, for example, that, if you're engaged if you have if you're exposed to social stress, that means a stressful situation involving another person.

你的代谢效率会下降，相当于多摄入104卡路里。如果把一年内每餐的这种损耗累加，就相当于增重11磅。

Within two hours of eating, your metabolism becomes less efficient to the tune of 104 calories. So it's like you ate 104 more calories than you actually ate. If you add that up over a year of meals, that's 11 pounds.

几乎正好每月一磅。是的。

So it's almost exactly a pound a month. Yeah.

没错。这意味着即使你吃着完全相同的健康食物，研究显示若频繁在餐后两小时面临压力，一年就会增重11磅。关键在于，这些由微小不确定性或压力瞬间引发的代谢低效会随时间累积，使你更容易患上代谢性疾病。

Yeah. So that means that you could eat the exact same thing. You could even be eating super healthy. But if you're exposed within two hours, the research suggests, that's 11 pounds in a year. So the point is that these little metabolic inefficiencies that happen from these little moments of uncertainty or little moments of stress, they add up over time and they leave you vulnerable to metabolic illnesses.

那么，什么是代谢性疾病呢？代谢性疾病，我们知道的有糖尿病、心脏病、抑郁症、焦虑症。这些都是具有强烈代谢基础的疾病。我的观点是，焦虑并非单一原因所致，而是由许多微小的推动力共同作用的结果。

Well, what are metabolic illnesses? Metabolic illnesses are, well, we know diabetes, heart disease, depression, anxiety. These are illnesses that have a very strong metabolic basis. And so my point is that there isn't one cause of anxiety. There are all these little nudges.

当足够多的小推动力朝同一方向累积时，就会产生巨大的推力。

Enough little nudges in the in the same direction produce a big shove.

我觉得提出他人如何影响我们是个有趣的观点。当前有很多关于孤独影响的讨论，甚至不一定是独处，而是人们感觉身边无人依靠。当被问及'紧急情况下能求助多少朋友'时，最常见的回答是零。这不是平均值，但却是最普遍的答案，诸如此类。

It seems to me it's an interesting point to bring up how other people can impact us. There's a lot of conversation at the moment about the impact of loneliness, too much it's not even necessarily solitude. It's people feeling like they don't have anyone around them. The most common answer to the question, how many friends can you call on an emergency is zero. It's not the mean, but it is the most it said blah blah blah blah.

我感兴趣的是有害关系对健康的影响——正如你所说，对人类神经系统最好的东西是人，但最坏的也是人。有害关系对我们的健康究竟有什么影响？

I'm interested in what the impact is of toxic relationships on our health that, as you said there, the best thing for our nervous system isn't of the human, but the worst thing for our nervous system is that too. What what is the impact of toxic relationships on our health?

我认为关于孤独感的研究证据更明确，可能因为相关研究更充分。但同等条件下，真正孤独的人会缩短数年寿命——不是指独处且适应良好的人，而是指那些没有可依靠的社交联系、连一个能求助的人都没有的孤独者。我们必须明白，人类是社会性动物。

Well, I think, you know, the evidence, I think, on loneliness and feeling alone and so on, I think the evidence is clearer there, just probably because more research has been done on that topic. But, I mean, all things being equal, you will live years you will lose years off your life if you are really alone. Not if you're by yourself and you're fine being by yourself, but if you're lonely. If you really if you're if you don't have a connected social you know, if you don't even have one person that you can call on that you feel that you could rely on. I think it's important to understand that we are social animals.

这意味着无论愿意与否，我们都是彼此神经系统的守护者。这与政治立场或信仰无关——人类本就不是作为能独立调节神经系统的生物进化而来的。

And what that means is we are the caretakers of each other's nervous systems, whether we like it or not. Doesn't matter, again, what your politics are. It does it's irrelevant what you believe. The fact is that we aren't built. We didn't evolve as creatures to regulate our own nervous systems by ourselves.

我们需要帮助，需要他人分担这个重担。但问题在于，正如之前所说，他人也是生活中最大的不确定性来源。有明确证据表明，若身处身体或性虐待关系中，这些负面事件不仅损害情绪健康，还会伤害身体健康。若儿童或青少年遭遇这些，其成年后患代谢性疾病的概率与经历事件存在近乎参数化的关联。

We need help. We need other people to do to help to bear that burden. The problem, I think, is that, as I said before, that other people are also the largest source of uncertainty in our lives. And, you know, I think there's pretty good evidence to suggest that well, there's definitely evidence to suggest that if you're in a relationship that is physically harmful to you or sexually harmful to you, where where adverse events are happening, that will take a toll on not just your emotional health, but your physical health. And if you're a child or an adolescent and this is happening, it will actually there's almost a parametric relationship between your experience of those events and the likelihood that you will develop metabolic illness of some sort in in adulthood or middle age.

这种影响非常隐蔽。但另有证据显示（虽然不直接针对有害关系），当遭遇重大突发事件时，你对其赋予的意义会极大影响其生物学后果。

So it's it's really pernicious. That being said, there is also evidence that, but I don't think this is not really evidence about a toxic relationship. So there's evidence that if adverse circumstances happen to you, like a one shot a big one shot thing, your way of making meaning of that can have a really big effect on its how it impacts your biology.

这与慢性压力情境截然不同。

It's very different to a a chronic stress situation, though.

确实。我们通常将有害关系视为慢性压力情境。在我们实验室的定义中，压力是大脑预测需要大量代谢支出的状态。若长期错误预测，那些为代谢支出做准备的健康机制就会失调。

Yes. It is. And I think I think we would probably think of a toxic relationship more like a chronic stress situation. I mean, is just the definition of stress really in our lab, the way we think about it is stress is your brain predicting the need for a big metabolic outlay, and that could be for any number of reasons. But if it happens chronically and you're mispredicting it all, then what happens is the your the mechanisms the healthy mechanisms that occur, that the that are engaged to prepare for that metabolic outlay become dysregulated.

然后，你知道，基本上你会出现这种普遍性的代谢失调。这就是慢性压力的问题所在。问题在于，你的油箱已经耗尽，而且在这个过程中某种程度上损害了相关机制。但我想可能已经有关于长期不良关系影响的研究了。只是我不太熟悉那方面的文献。

And then, you know, you're basically, you have this pervasive metabolic dysregulation that occurs. And that's the problem with chronic stress. The problem is that, you know, you're basically, you've drained your gas tank, and it's kind of damaged the mechanisms in the process kind of thing. But I I think probably probably there's research on longer the effects of longer term adverse relationships. I'm just not I don't I don't know that literature super well.

慢性压力中哪些机制被激活了？你提到某些东西受损了。某些东西似乎总是处于开启状态。你无法关闭它们。油箱空了。

What what are the mechanisms that are turned on in chronic stress? You mentioned certain things get damaged. Certain things are sort of always on. You can't switch them off. Gas tank is empty.

从代谢角度看，慢性压力是什么表现？它对大脑有什么影响？

What what does chronic stress look like metabolically? What does it do to the brain?

嗯，如果我们把压力理解为任何时候大脑预测会有大量代谢支出。比如当你早上挣扎着起床时，在你醒来之前，大脑就在发出需要皮质醇的信号，因为皮质醇不是压力激素，而是一种能让葡萄糖进入细胞的激素。它基本上能让你的细胞更容易代谢葡萄糖。

Well, what happens in so if we think about stress as just any time your brain is predicting a big metabolic outlay. So when you drag your ass out of bed in the morning, your brain before as you're waking up, your brain is, you know, signaling the need for cortisol because cortisol is not a stress hormone. It's a hormone that gets glucose in. You know? It it basically makes your it may it it allows your cells to metabolize glucose more easily, basically.

所以站立是代谢成本很高的动作。大脑能做的最消耗能量的事情就是移动身体、学习新事物、应对持续的不确定性，以及处理长期活跃的免疫系统。这意味着你有某种代谢性免疫功能障碍，比如可能导致自身免疫疾病之类的情况。

And so standing up is metabolically costly. Like, the most expensive thing that your brain can do is move your body, learn something new, deal with persistent uncertainty, and deal with an immune system that is chronically active. Meaning that you have some metabolic some immune dysfunction, like an you know, which would lead to, like, let's say, an autoimmune illness or something. So, like, elevated

持续性感染。

Persistent infection.

对，没错。所以当你醒来去锻炼时，会出现皮质醇激增，因为大脑预测会有大量代谢支出。但经常发生的情况是，比如当你在会议室开商务会议时，或者要和表面朋友交谈，或者担心和女友吵架之类的时候，大脑也在为大量代谢支出做准备。

Right. Yeah. Exactly. So when you wake up, if you go to exercise, you have a cortisol surge because your brain is predicting a big metabolic outlay. But what happens often, like, let's say, when you're sitting in a boardroom at a business meeting or you're, you know, you have to talk to your frenemy, or you're worried about, you know, getting into a fight with your girlfriend, or whatever it is, your brain is preparing for big metabolic outlay.

但实际上你并不需要这些。于是你体内充满了葡萄糖，却不需要这些额外的葡萄糖。这就像个假警报。如果这种情况频繁发生，你的细胞就会对皮质醇变得不敏感，这意味着当你真正需要时，它们无法再利用这个信号了。

And then you don't need that. So you're flushed with glucose, and you don't need the glucose. You don't need the extra glucose. That's like a false alarm. If that happens frequently enough, your cells become insensitive to cortisol, which means that they can't utilize that signal anymore when they when you actually need it.

所以皮质醇失调就是慢性压力造成的影响之一。

So cortisol dysregulation is an example of what happens in chronic stress.

但这听起来不错啊。哦，我对皮质醇不那么敏感了。我能更有效地应对皮质醇了。

But that sounds good. Oh, I'm not so sensitive to cortisol anymore. I can handle the cortisol more effectively.

嗯-嗯。这意味着你的细胞无法在皮质醇存在于血液中时利用它。它们会忽略皮质醇，因为它已不再具有任何意义信号——它总是存在。所以当你早晨挣扎着起床时，皮质醇水平会上升，但你的细胞却无法利用它。

Mm-mm. What it means is that your cells won't When cortisol is in the blood, the cells can't utilize it anymore. They ignore it because it's a signal that doesn't have any meaning anymore. It's always there. So when you go to drag your ass out of bed in the morning, there's a cortisol increase, but your cells can't utilize it.

那么你感觉如何？你会感到精疲力竭，仿佛动弹不得，对吧？或者当你需要为重要会议做准备时，你需要皮质醇——你需要细胞能够利用这种皮质醇。但现在它们做不到了，这时你会有什么感觉？

And so how do you feel? Feel ex you feel you feel exhausted, like you can't move. Right? Or, you know, when you you have to prepare for a big meeting, and you need that cortisol to you need your cells to be able to utilize that cortisol. Well, now it can't so how do you feel?

你会感觉头脑昏沉。皮质醇是成千上万种以这种方式运作的化学物质之一。这会导致身体正常调节机制失调，最终使人更容易患病。

Well, you feel fuzzy headed. Cortisol is one chemical of thousands of chemicals that work like this. Right? So what happens is there's a dysregulation of the normal mechanisms for regulating the body. And eventually, this results in vulnerability to illness.

不是第一次，也不是第十次，但最终会这样。有趣的是，研究表明，一次不愉快的社会互动——比如有人对你大吼大叫，尤其是当你还是孩子或青少年时，但成年后若有人对你粗鲁无礼，你也会受到影响。这种影响不一定会持续，因为只有一次，对吧？

Not the first time, not the tenth time, but eventually. And what's interesting about this is that, you know, research shows that a single interaction that is socially unpleasant, like where somebody, you know, yells at you or especially if you're a kid or an adolescent. But even in adulthood where somebody's rude to you or whatever, you see, an effect. Now that effect isn't gonna persist necessarily because it's just once. Right?

这些微小影响需要很长时间累积才会成为问题。但最终，它们确实会成为问题。

It these are, like, little effects that take a long time to add up until they become a problem. But eventually, they will become a problem.

慢性压力如何影响记忆力？我们编码和回忆事物的能力会受什么影响？

How does chronic stress impact memory? Our ability to encode things, recall them?

这是个复杂的关系。证据表明存在最佳水平——如果某件事对你完全不重要，比如大脑预测它不会产生代谢影响，你甚至不会注意到它。就像噪音一样，你不会记住它。

Well, it's a complicated relationship. The evidence suggests that, there's an optimum level if something doesn't matter to you at all, like it has no your brain is predicting it will have no metabolic impact, you won't even pay attention to it. You won't remember it. It's like noise. It's just like you won't remember it.

如果压力水平过高，意味着系统承受过多需求，你可能也记不清楚。实际上存在最佳压力水平，研究显示这就像一条倒U型曲线。

If your stress level is too high, meaning that there's too much demand on the system, you also probably won't remember well. There's an optimum level of stress, actually. It's like an inverted u. That's what the research suggests.

你会如何建议长期处于压力后的人恢复功能？比如某人经历艰难时期后，勉强熬过来了，然后意识到：'这种疲惫又亢奋的状态，听起来很像我的情况'，或者早晨醒来感觉迟钝。

How would you advise someone to rebuild their function after a period of of prolonged stress? Someone's had a rough period. They've been sort of getting through it, and they think, wow. That that sort of tired but wide thing, that really sounds like me. Or I wake up in the morning and I feel sluggish.

这确实与我情绪化饮食的阶段吻合，那时既要处理母亲的事，又要应付工作。对这样的人来说，有什么好方法能让他们回归正常状态？

And that does actually correlate with a period where I was kind of eating it a little bit emotionally, and that thing had to deal with mom and had to deal with work and had to deal with the what is a good way for that person to bring themselves back into a state of normality?

嗯，我会将其描述为一种最佳新陈代谢状态或最佳能量效率状态。首先，你的情绪就是一个很好的线索，可以说是对你代谢状态的一个非常简单的总结或晴雨表。如果你感觉不错，有足够的精力，自我感知精力充沛，心情愉悦，那么从代谢角度来说，一切可能都相当顺利。而如果你感到极度痛苦或精疲力竭，很可能存在某些代谢需求。说实话克里斯，关于这点我要说的可能很老套——她又来了。

Well, as I would say a state of of optimal optimal metabolism or optimal, optimal energy, efficiency. I would say, first of all, your mood is a pretty good clue to, you know, like very simple summary or like a very simple barometer of your metabolic state. So if you're feeling okay, you have enough energy, you know, you perceive enough energy, you feel pretty good, probably everything is going pretty well, metabolically speaking. And if you're feeling really distressed or really dragged out, probably there's some metabolic demand. And I would say the I mean, it's so boring, Chris, what I have to say about this is like, here she goes.

她又要开始唠叨了。健康饮食。保证充足睡眠。不管对你而言这意味着什么。毕竟不是人人都需要睡足八小时。

She's gonna be a mother. Eat healthfully. Get enough sleep. Whatever that means for you. Like, eight hours isn't for everybody.

你只需要睡到自然醒来感觉精力恢复就行。其实光是休息本身——我了解到这点时简直难以置信。我以前经常练瑜伽，几年前做了背部手术后，这项活动就有所减少了。

You just have to get enough sleep that you eventually will wake up feeling rested. And even just resting, like, I learned this. I couldn't believe this actually. I used to do yoga quite a bit. I had back surgery a couple of years ago, and so it's curbed my ability to do yoga a little bit.

但我过去练得很勤，每周三次左右。可摊尸式对我总是最难的环节，就是那种平躺着的姿势。有些瑜伽老师...

But I used to do yoga every like a lot, like three times a week. But Shavasana was always like the hardest thing for me, like where you're laying flat, you know? Some yoga teachers

其实是在放松。

actually chill out.

瑜伽教练总说'这是我最喜欢的部分'，而我却觉得像活受罪——要躺在那儿六七分钟什么的。但事实证明，平躺休息几分钟确实对身体有益。

Yoga yoga instructor is always like, oh, this is my favorite part. I'd be like, this is a living hell for me to lie here like, for six minutes, whatever. It turns out there's actually evidence that it's really good for you to just lie down and have a rest for a minute.

哦，这倒有个有趣的问题。既然有充分证据表明平躺休息有益健康，可你的体验却是充满压力的，这说明了什么？

Oh, interesting question on that. What does it mean then that there's good evidence lying down, having a rest for a minute is good for you, but your experience of it was one of stress?

其实那对我并不舒服。关键是要屏蔽内心那些'我得做这个''我得做那个'的杂念，不能总想着'等这个结束我就要...'。真正的休息意味着...

Well, it wasn't good for me. I mean, like, you have to actually tune out the, you know, oh, I've gotta, you know like, tune out the your inner troll. Like, oh, I've gotta do this, I've gotta do that, and I've gotta the minute I as soon as I'm allowed to get out of here, I've gotta you know? No. You have to actually rest.

大脑不再以每小时100英里的速度运转。但休息确实很重要。健康饮食、适度运动——哪怕只是绕街区散步也是个开始。这些因素可能占了整个健康方程的很大比重。

Rest means, you know, your mind isn't racing at a 100 miles an hour. So but I mean, rest is good. Eating healthily, exercising, even if it means just going for a walk, even if it's just a walk around the block, it's a start. You know? So these things actually are like 50% of the I don't know if it's 50, but it's, like, a lot of the equation here.

我觉得应该对自己更宽容些。如果你正在病后恢复期，或刚度过高压阶段，要明白此时的承受力确实不如正常状态。所以务必保证充足休息，不要过度苛责自己。就像得了流感——除了卧床休息还能做什么呢？

And I would say, you know, be a little gentler with yourself. If you're recovering from an illness or you've lived in a real you're just coming out of a really stressful period, you have to remember that you're just not as resilient, and you are not you're not as resilient as you will be once you're So you just have to really, I think, take care to get enough rest, and really do your best to not make more out of it than that. Right? If you have the flu, what do you do? You lie down.

你看电视，喝鸡汤，服用泰诺之类的药物。你不会因为得了流感就责备自己是个糟糕的人。

You watch TV. You drink chicken soup. You take, you know, maybe, you know, Tylenol or whatever. You don't berate yourself for being a horrible person. You have the flu.

长期压力的症状与流感非常相似。可能没有恶心感，但肯定会有疲劳感之类的。所以在恢复过程中，你需要对自己更耐心、更温柔些。

The symptoms of prolonged stress are very similar to the flu. Maybe no nausea, but definitely, you know, the fatigue and the you know? And so you just have to be a little more patient and, gentle with yourself, as you recover.

你今天提到我们的大脑相当灵活。我们对情绪状态的控制力比想象中更强，能够主动介入。这种能力的极限在哪里？有哪些是我们无法通过自我重塑做到的？我们干预大脑能力的上限是什么？

You've said today our brains are are pretty flexible. We have more of a control over our emotional, state than we might think that we that we were able to to step in. What's the limit? What what can't we rewire ourselves to do? What's the upper bound of our ability to step into our our own brains?

这个因人而异，取决于很多因素。比如你不可能打个响指就改变情绪。如果你感觉糟透了，你可以改变这种糟糕体验的'风味'，但无法像关灯开关那样彻底关闭它——情绪机制不是这样运作的。

Well, I think it's different for different people. It depends on a lot of different factors. But, I mean, you can't snap your fingers and change your mood, for example. You if you feel like shit, you can change the flavor of the shit that you're experiencing, but you can't actually turn it off, the way you would flip off a light switch. It just doesn't work like that.

你必须忍受它。你可以告诉自己这只是噪音，将其体验为无关紧要的背景杂音。通常当我们对某事感到不适时，第一反应是向外寻找原因：这个世界出了什么问题？

You have to tolerate it. You have might you might tell yourself, this is noise. You know? You might experience it as not relevant, you know, kind of like chatter in a way. I mean, normally when we feel unpleasant about something, the first thing we do is look to the world like, What's wrong with the world?

这是个线索。或者我们会向内审视：我怎么了？但可能只是你代谢能量耗尽了。所以你对事物的理解方式很重要，但如果你正经历痛苦或疲劳，不可能靠几个绝地心灵戏法就说服自己摆脱它。

This is a clue. Or we might look to ourselves, What's wrong with me? But it could just be that you're metabolically kind of like depleted. And so I think how you make sense of things matters to a point. But you can't If you're feeling distress or fatigue, you can't just, you know, do a couple of Jedi mind tricks and talk yourself out of it.

事情不是这样运作的。

It doesn't work like that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你陷入过度反刍思维——那些侵入性念头不断在脑海中盘旋——很难强行关闭它们。虽然你必须尝试（持续反刍对健康有害），但压制过程反而会强化这些念头，使它们更容易在未来复现。

And if you're really ruminating, meaning that you have intrusive thoughts or thoughts that are you're going over and over and over, you know, that are are just just turning around, turning around in your mind, it's very hard to turn those off. I mean, you need to try. It's really not healthy for you. But you're just giving those thoughts essentially. You're sort of juicing them up to be more easily reinstated later.

这非常困难。有时候你必须彻底改变环境来应对，要把它们看作心理习惯。改变习惯靠的不是意志力，而是改变环境。因为习惯本质上是受环境影响的预测机制所支配的自动化行为。

But it's very hard to do that. And sometimes, you know, you have to literally change your context in order you have to think of them like mental habits in a sense. And the way to change a habit is not willpower. The way to change a habit is to change your context. Because a habit is nothing more than automatic behavior that is governed by predictions which are influenced, shaped by the context that you're in.

如果你改变所处的环境，就能更容易切换到另一套预测模式中。

If you change your context, you make it easier, to shift into a different set of predictions.

在反刍思维的例子里，环境具体指什么？会是什么样子？

What would context consist of in the rumination example? What would that look like?

这要视情况而定。我的意思是没法给出具体方案，因为人类生活条件千差万别——但字面意思可能就是出去散步、沉浸在某件事里、跳出思维牢笼，懂吗？

It depends on it depends. I mean, I can't give you a specific recipe because the conditions of human life are so varied, but it could literally mean go out for a walk. Immerse yourself in something. Get outside your head. You know?

说实话对我个人很有效的方式——虽然不一定适合所有人——是研究神经解剖学。我会翻开神经解剖学书籍，研究几个长期思考的解剖学问题，单纯阅读就能完全吸引我的注意力。

For me, honestly, one thing that helps me a lot it's not gonna help everybody, but it helps me. I do neuroanatomy. I oh, I'll crack open a neuroanatomy book, and, you know, there are a couple of anatomical problems I've been working on for a while, and I'll just read some neuroanatomy. It absorbs

很 niche 的解决方案呢。

niche solution. Yeah.

是啊。不过我也会做些别的，比如看电视或电影（虽然我不怎么看电视），可能边看剧边织毛衣，或者去散步观鸟，又或者在花园里干活。

Yeah. But I also could do something like I might watch television or watch a movie. Well, I don't really watch television, but, like, I might watch a movie or a cereal or something and knit. Right? Or I might go for a walk, and I might birdwatch, or I might work in the garden.

听起来你在主动让自己投入某些活动。

Seems like you're trying to engage yourself.

没错。这是在引导大脑进入另一套自动预测模式。像我们常说的那种意志力——比如明明很想吃第二块巧克力蛋糕却要克制——这种我们认为的『控制』。

Yeah. You're trying to engage your brain in a different set of automatic predictions. Willpower, like the kind of willpower that you might use that we understand. We understand this, you know, like, I really wanna eat that second piece of chocolate cake, and I have to tell myself not to eat it. That's what we think of as control.

这类控制很少奏效，相比大脑内部自动运行的其他控制机制，它的作用微乎其微。关键是要学会驾驭那些自动机制。所以找到能让你全神贯注且与自我无关的事物，才是应对这些难以控制之事的良方。

That kind of control rarely works, and it's it's it's infrequent compared to the other sources of control that are automatically going on inside your brain. And you just have to figure out how to harness those. So find something that you find immersive and that isn't about you. And that's a good recipe for trying to control these things that are really, you know, really kinda hard to control, actually.

我觉得最有趣又带点安慰与压力的是：我们其实能对自身状态负起很大责任。虽然想着『情绪自然发生，我只能被动承受』很让人无力，这种想法也不舒服——但在某种程度上，它也免除了你必须介入应对的责任，就像在说『我对焦虑无能为力』。

The thing that's, I guess, interesting, reassuring, and a little bit daunting that I've taken away from this is the amount of responsibility that we all can take over sort of what's happening to us. Although it's very disempowering to think, well, you know, these emotions are just happening, and I'm I'm along for the ride. It's not that doesn't feel particularly great. But in some ways, it kind of relinquishes you of any of the responsibility of having to step in and and do well, there's nothing I can do. There's nothing I can do about my anxiety.

对于我的慢性压力，我无能为力。对于我的反复思考，我也束手无策。

There's nothing that I can do about my chronic stress. There's nothing I can do about my rumination.

嗯。好吧好吧，欢迎来到现代生活的困境。我是说，你认为自己对情绪不负责任，或者说在情绪影响下无需对行为负责——这种想法其实构成了西方法律理论的重要部分。明白吗？但我觉得你确实精准指出了这个困境的核心。

Mhmm. Well well welcome to the quandary of of, modern life. I mean, I think the idea that you're not responsible for your emotions and and or or better said that you're not responsible for your behavior when you're under the influence of an emotion, that you've just described a large part of Western legal theory. You know? I mean so but but I think that you've put your you've put your finger on exactly the quandary.

要知道，正是这个让许多人看到希望的观点意味着——你对自身行为和感受的责任可能超乎你的想象。重点在于，有时我们承担责任不是因为我们该受责备，而是因为唯有我们才能改变现状。所以你必须想清楚自己想要什么生活，以及愿意为之付出多少努力。每个人偶尔都需要一些帮助。

You know, the very thing that gives a lot of people hope is the thing that is the thing that mean what it means is that you, you know, you have more responsibility for how you act and how you feel than you might think you do. And I think the important thing and I I'm really, really you know, this is an important thing to say. Sometimes we're responsible for things not because we're to blame for them, but because we're the only ones who can change them. So you just have to figure out what you want in your life and how how hard you're willing to work for it. And everybody always need everyone needs a little help sometimes.

这种帮助可以来自他人，可以是药物，也可能以各种形式出现。这并不意味着你必须独自承担一切，但你始终是自己人生的设计师。当然，并非每个人都有相同的选择权。

That help can be another person. That help could be a medication. That help could be, it could come in many different forms. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to do everything yourself, but you are the architect of your life. Not everybody has the same options.

正如我之前所说，主动掌控生活比我们期望的要困难得多。它耗时更长，效果也不总是尽如人意。但每个人对自己经历和行为的掌控力，其实都超过他们自认为的程度——这也意味着每个人都承担着比想象中更多的责任。

It's a lot harder, as I said before, to sort of to take take the reins, you know, than we would like. It's not as it's it's harder. It takes more time. It's not always as effective as we would like. But everybody can have more control over their experience and their actions, than they think they can, And that means everybody has a little more responsibility than they might realize.

这确实带来压力。某种程度的压力，但同时也伴随着一种解放感。真是种有趣的混合。女士们先生们，有请丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士。你太棒了，丽莎。

And that's pressure. There is a degree of pressure, but there's also a kind of liberation that comes along with it. So it's a it's an interesting blend. Doctor Lisa Feldman Barrett, ladies and gentlemen. You're fantastic, Lisa.

我觉得你太出色了。我真的很欣赏你的工作。大家该去哪里关注你的动态呢？他们肯定想了解你所有的研究成果。

I think you're wonderful. I I really enjoy your work. Where should people go? They're gonna wanna, check out everything you've got going on.

Lisafeldmanbarrett.com。

Lisafeldmanbarrett.com.

就这么简单。推荐两本人人必读的书，其中一本堪称完美假日读物——不只是真实犯罪或浪漫小说这类轻松作品，还有更深度的选择。丽莎，非常感谢你。

Easy as that. Two books that everybody should read, including one that's, like, the perfect holiday. I don't wanna just do true crime romance fiction stuff and is an easy read and then something else which is deeper too. Lisa, I appreciate you very much.

谢谢。非常感谢。

Thank you. Thank you so much.

恭喜你。你成功看完了这一集。如果你想看更多内容，为什么不点击这里呢？1. 如果你想阅读更多，你可能需要一些既轻松愉快又不会让你感到无聊或沮丧的好书，那些让你不至于读半页就放弃的书。

Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? 1. If you're wanting to read more, you probably want some good books to read that are going to be easy and enjoyable and not bore you and make you feel despondent at the fact that you can only get through half a page without bowing out.

这就是为什么我创建了现代智慧阅读清单，列出了100本我读过的最棒、最有趣、最有影响力且最娱乐的书，包括小说和非小说类，还有真实生活故事。每本书都有我喜欢的理由说明，以及购买链接。而且完全免费。你现在就可以通过访问chriswillx.com/books获取。网址是chriswillx.com/books。

And that is why I made the modern wisdom reading list, a list of 100 of the best books, the most interesting, impactful, and entertaining that I've ever found, fiction and nonfiction, and there's real life stories. And there's a description about why I like it, and there's links to go and buy it. And it's completely free. You can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com/books. That's chriswillx.com/books.