如果你做家务，他获得晋升：伊芙·罗德斯基揭秘家庭劳动背后的隐性经济学

费用很快就累积起来了。

The costs add up fast.

这就是我喜欢在Airbnb上出租我家的原因。

That's why I love hosting my home on Airbnb.

这是一种在我们外出时赚取额外收入的简便方式，这些额外收入可以帮助资助我们的下一次旅行。

It's an easy way to bring in some extra income while we're away, and that extra cash can help fund our next trip.

假设你计划了一次长途旅行，或者打算去气候更温暖的地方，在海滩上远程工作。

Let's say you have a big trip planned or are escaping to a warmer part of the world to work from the beach.

既然你的家空着没人住，为什么不让它为你赚钱呢？

Why leave your home sitting empty and dark when it could be making money for you?

今年，得益于Airbnb的联合房东网络，出租你的家变得前所未有的简单。

This year, it's easier than ever to host your home thanks to Airbnb's cohost network.

通过联合房东网络，你可以雇佣一位本地联合房东，在你外出时照看你的房屋和客人。

With the cohost network, you can hire a local cohost to take care of your home and your guests while you're away.

联合房东可以处理所有事务：创建你的房源列表、办理入住手续、提供现场支持，并让你安心，知道你的房屋和客人在你外出时得到了妥善照顾。

A cohost can do it all, create your listing, handle check ins, provide on-site support, and give you peace of mind that your home and guests are being taken care of while you're away.

所以，如果你一直想做房东但不知从何开始，请前往 airbnb.com/host 寻找联合房东。

So if you've been thinking about hosting but you don't know where to start, find a cohost at airbnb.com/host.

企业主们，用 US Bank Business Essentials 提升您的企业财务。

Business owners, let's level up your business finances with US Bank Business Essentials.

Business Essentials 不仅荣获 2025 年最佳新产品 Tier Sheets 大银行理论奖，这款创新产品还将支票账户与卡片支付处理相结合，让您更快地接受付款并收款。

Not only did Business Essentials win Tier Sheets Big Bank Theory award for the best new product of 2025, but this innovative product combines checking and card payment processing so that you can accept payments and get paid faster.

此外，它提供无限次数字交易，且无月度维护费。

Plus, it offers unlimited digital transactions with no monthly maintenance fees.

这是一款真正像您一样努力工作的账户。

It's an account that actually works hard as you do.

所以，立即前往 usbank.com 提升您的业务。

So let's elevate your business at usbank.com.

这就是我们的力量。

That's the power of us.

存款产品由美国银行国家协会提供，受 FDIC 保障。

Deposit products offered by US Bank National Association member FDIC.

版权所有 2025，美国银行。

Copyright 2025, US Bank.

所有权关乎公平，这样你就能重新获得所有累积的时间。

Ownership, which is about fair play, then you get all that compounded time back.

那么，那个电子表格怎么了？

So what's happened to the spreadsheet?

它已经被分享给了无数人

It's been shared with a gazillion

那我们来谈谈这个。

So let's talk about that.

于是，这个电子表格开始成为我的一个数据节点。

So the spreadsheet starts to become a point of data for me.

我戴上了研究的帽子。

I put my research hat on.

而且，此时我仍在经营一家律师事务所，这纯粹是出于兴趣，因为我喜欢，我不知道。

And, again, I'm still running a law firm at this point, and this is just for fun because I like I like to I don't know.

这是我眼中的乐趣。

I Idea of fun.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那就是我的乐趣所在。

It was my idea of fun.

我本该 literally 找个大学里的床，直接住进去，然后当个教授。

I would live I should have, like, literally found a bed in a university and just embedded myself in there, and I should have been a professor.

总会有下一步和新章节，所以也许我下次会这么做。

There's always a next step and a next chapter, so maybe I'll do that next.

但我认为社会学方面，我母亲是社会工作和社会学的教授。

But I think the sociological side of things my mother's a professor of social work and sociology.

我们家有很多同事都是搞社会学的。

We have a lot of family colleagues who are in sociology.

我主修人类学和经济学，辅修社会学。

And I majored in anthropology economics with a minor in sociology.

所以，我已经掌握了大量关于如何获取数据的信息。

So I had a lot of this information already at my hand disposal by how to gain data.

于是，我开始用那个电子表格询问夫妻们是如何分担家务的，因为有很多女性告诉我，她们感到精疲力尽，家里虽然有帮手，但却没有真正的伴侣，她们的性欲正在减退，对伴侣也不再感兴趣。

And so what I'd start to do with that spreadsheet was just ask couples how they divided up their labor because so many women were coming to me saying that they were really overwhelmed and that they had a helper in their house but not a partner and that they were losing their sex drive and that they weren't as interested in their partner anymore.

因此，听到这些共同的主题让我觉得很有意思。

So it was sort of interesting to hear all these themes.

于是，我提出了一个非常关键的问题：我该如何将自己独特的技能融入这项研究中？

And so what I did was I asked a very important question, which was, where can I put my unique skills into this research?

我知道我不是一名治疗师。

So I knew I wasn't a therapist.

我知道我不是一名专业的社会学家，但我是一名律师。

I knew that I wasn't a technical sociologist, but I am a lawyer.

我喜欢法律体系的一点是，我们是在设计行为，妮可。

And what I love about the legal system is that we are designing behaviors, Nicole.

我不确定其他律师是否也这样想，但我一直都是这么看待的。

So I'm not sure any other lawyer thinks of it this way, but this is how I've always thought of it.

我想上法学院，是因为我不想每次都问你。

I wanted to go to law school because I didn't wanna ask you every single time.

抱歉，妮可。

Excuse me, Nicole.

你能停一下停车标志吗？

Can you stop at the stop sign?

使用‘我’开头的表达。

Use I statements.

我希望能请你停一下停车标志。

I would love for you to stop at the stop sign.

我想要更大的改变。

I wanted more global change.

我知道我们会在停车标志前停下，是因为我们制定了法律强制人们停车。

And I knew that we stop at stop signs because we pass laws to force people to stop stop signs.

因此，这种行为设计的元素让我非常感兴趣。

So that behavior design element became very interesting to me.

我当时想，我能不能把这种治理和法律的设计元素用在我为客户——那些高净值客户——处理的极其复杂的财务、继承和治理问题上？

And I thought, can I use that design element of, like, governance and laws, which I use for my clients, my very high net worth clients, and they're very tricky financial situations, and they're very tricky succession situations, and they're very tricky governance situations?

它们都是组织，而这就是我谋生的方式。

They're organizations, and this is what I do for a living.

因此，我的假设是：我能否利用我的法律背景，在白板上写写画画？

And so what I premised was, could I use my legal background and write on a whiteboard?

如果家庭是一个组织呢？

What if the home was an organization?

我使用电子表格来帮助我验证这个假设是否成立。

And I use the spreadsheet to help me posit whether that's true.

家庭是一个组织吗？

Is the home an organization?

剧透一下，答案是肯定的。

The spoiler alert is yes.

家庭是一个非常重要的组织。

It's a very important organization.

这可能是我们最重要的组织。

It's probably our most important organization.

所以，如果你相信我，认为家庭是一个组织，那么组织管理学的研究就适用。

So if you believe me that the home is an organization, then organizational management scholarship works.

这就是我用电子表格所做的。

And so that's what I did with the spreadsheet.

我拿过它，心想，好吧。

I took it and said, okay.

我得不到好的数据。

I'm not getting good data.

所以，如果我问你和你的伴侣谁负责你们女儿的第一次生日，我可能会得到的回答是：我们都负责。

So if I ask you and your partner who's handling your daughter's first birthday, I would probably get back, we both are.

明白吗？

Okay?

这对我的研究没有帮助。

That's not helpful data for me.

于是我改变了问题，这打开了一整个全新的领域，也就是公平分工。

So I changed the question, and it opened up an entire world, which became fair play.

我不再问谁负责X，比如谁买杂货、谁操办生日派对，而是查看了我那个包含98个标签的电子表格中的杂货标签，问自己：我该如何换个方式提问？

Instead of asking who's handling x, who handles groceries, who handles the birthday party, I asked I looked at the groceries tab of the 98 tabs on my should I do spreadsheet, and I said, how can I ask this differently?

因此，在过去十年里，我在28个国家持续提出同一个问题：芥末是怎么进你冰箱的？

And so in 28 countries over the past ten years now, I've been asking the same question, which is how does mustard get in your refrigerator?

尼科尔，这个问题如此有力，是因为它让我能够将RACI框架——适用于任何了解组织管理框架的人——应用到这一讨论中。

Why that is such a powerful question, Nicole, is because it allowed me to map a RACI framework for any of those out there who know sort of what a or an organizational management framework into this discussion.

我发现，如果我使用一个非常简单的组织管理框架，即构思、规划和执行——这可能是你能用的最简单的框架——

And what I found was that if I used a very simple organizational management framework, which I called conception, planning, and execution, that's probably the simplest one you can use.

我意识到，女性负责的是构思阶段。

I realized that women were conceiving.

她们在27个国家都这样告诉我。

They're the ones who told me in 27 countries.

就连冰岛也是如此。

Even Iceland does it this way.

所以我觉得好多了，因为塞思并不是反派。

So that's why I feel better because it's not like Seth is a villain.

这实际上在全球各地都在发生。

This is happening literally everywhere in the entire globe on the entire globe.

女性是那些注意到芥末快用完的人。

Women are the ones who notice that they Mustard's low.

那这就是规划。

Well, that's planning.

但首先，构思阶段是女性告诉我，她们的冰箱里有黄芥末，因为儿科医生告诉她们孩子贫血，需要更多蛋白质。

So first, though, conception was women telling me they have yellow mustard in the refrigerator because the pediatrician told them their child was anemic and the child needs more protein.

她们想到了一个更好的方法来摄入蛋白质，而不是强迫孩子服用铁剂补充剂，那就是把芥末涂在三明治上。

They conceived of this idea that there would be a better way to ingest protein as opposed to, like, forcing iron down their child's throat in a supplement, and that would be to drench it exactly in mustard, make a sandwich.

但你需要黄芥末，而且孩子吃三明治时需要大量芥末。

But you need yellow mustard, and the kid needs a lot of mustard on it to take their bites of their sandwich.

这就是构思。

That's conception.

然后就是你刚才说的那样。

And then exactly what you just said.

女性也是那些为家庭采购清单所需物品争取家人支持的人。

Women were also the ones getting stakeholder buy in from their family for what they needed for the grocery list.

她们并没有说‘利益相关者认同’，但那就是我所听到的。

They didn't say stakeholder buy in, but that's what I was listening for.

就像你所说的，她们会留意芥末，当它快用完时就会监控。

And like you said, they're watching the mustard and monitoring it when it runs low.

这就是规划。

That's planning.

而男性说他们共同负责购物的原因，是因为在这些异性婚姻中确实如此。

And then the reason why men were saying that they both handle groceries was because it was true in these heterocyst gender marriages.

男性经常去超市购物，但他们买回来的是辣味第戎芥末。

Men were the ones going many times to the grocery store, but they bring home spicy Dijon.

问题不在于蓝莓，也不在于芥末。

And the problem with that is not the blueberries or not the mustard.

但当有人带回家辣味第戎芥末时，这会侵蚀我经常告诉客户的组织最需要的两样东西。

But when somebody brings home spicy Dijon, what that does is it erodes the two things that I always tell my clients are the most important thing an organization needs.

其实只有这两样东西。

It's really only two things.

这很简单。

It's pretty simple.

一个组织只需要问责制和信任。

An organization just needs accountability and trust.

那么，如果没有问责制和信任，会发生什么？

So what happens if you don't have accountability and trust?

信任的反面是控制。

The opposite of trust is control.

然后我们就开始陷入‘我承担了所有精神负担，而你或许能帮我去买些气球’的模式。

And then we start sliding to I'm handling all the mental load, and you could maybe help me go get the balloons.

但你的伴侣会失去心理安全感，因为他们带回家的是漫威主题的气球，而你的孩子却要办美人鱼主题的派对。

But then your partner loses psychological safety because they're bringing home, like, Marvel balloons, and your child has a mermaid themed party.

你就会想，这些钢铁侠气球我该怎么处理？

And you're like, what am I gonna do with these Iron Man balloons?

正是这些细微的问责和信任侵蚀，最终导致了最大的问题，而这就是Fair Play能够提供解决方案来应对这些问题的原因。

So it's these small accountability and trust erosions that were leading to the biggest problems, and that's why Fair Play was able to provide a solution to solve those.

你确实有。

You have.

不过我想回到你之前说的一件事，因为亚历克斯·库珀在《Call Her Daddy》节目中做过一期。

I wanna go back to one thing you said though, because Alex Cooper did an episode of Call Her Daddy.

我不知道你有没有看过，她说最没有吸引力的特质就是一个希望妻子成为什么样的男人。

I don't know if you saw it where she said that the least attractive trait is a man who wants his wife to be.

这一点已经被证实了。

It's been found.

那你同意吗？

So do you agree?

是的，没错。

Does it Yes.

影响，哦，

Impact Oh,

性生活，确实有影响。

sex life It does.

不仅如此，我们刚刚完成了第一项大型研究，妮可，以证明公平游戏确实有效。

And not only that, we just did our first big study, Nicole, to show that fair play yay does work.

我们与南加州大学合作，并获得了大型医疗公司的资金支持，因为他们正在研究精神负担如何影响女性的生理健康——剧透一下，确实有影响。

And we did it with USC, and we got money from a big health care company because they're looking at how the mental load affects women's physical health, which spoiler alert, it does.

但我们发现，随着公平游戏卡片的增多——剧透一下，电子表格和系统变成了发牌的隐喻。

But what we found was that the more cards so fair play just spoiler alert was that the spreadsheet and the system became a metaphor of of playing a a deck of cards.

所以，原本这个Excel表格里有100个标签，现在变成了100张卡片。

So, like, there were that 100 tabs on this Excel sheet, there's now a 100 cards.

你为完整的CPE发牌。

And you deal the cards for full CPE.

但这并不意味着你必须一直握着它们。

Doesn't mean you have to hold it forever.

但如果你拿着一张牌，我希望你能承担责任。

But if you're holding a card, I want you to own it.

所以我希望你能负责购物清单。

So I want you to own the grocery list.

我希望你回家时带上你认为对方需要的所有东西，通过提前规划，询问他们的伴侣。

I want you to come home with everything you think the person needs by getting planning, by asking their partner.

当东西买回家后，如果你买回了辣味第戎芥末酱，就要承担自己的错误。

And then when it comes home, if you're bringing home spicy Dijon, you carry through your mistake.

对吧？

Right?

这就是你在职场中承担责任的方式。

That's how you own things in the workplace.

我知道，如果我对你说，嘿，妮可，我并不是在为妮可·拉平工作。

I know I'm not working for Nicole Lappin if I say to you, hey, Nicole.

我今天该做什么？

What should I be doing today?

我就在这儿等着，等你告诉我该做什么。

I'm just gonna wait here till you tell me what to do.

我知道，我明天就会被你公司开除。

I know I would be out of your organization tomorrow.

我太了解你了。

I just know you.

那我们为什么在家里也允许这样呢？

So why do we allow that in our home?

对吧？

Right?

我知道。

I know

我清楚你的员工中没人会这么做。

that that no employees on your staff would would do that.

那我们为什么允许这样？为什么我姑妈玛农的麻将小组在家中有更明确的期望？

So why do we allow why is my aunt Marion's mahjong group why does she have more clearly defined expectations in the home?

显然，在她的小组里，如果你两次没带零食，就会被踢出去。

Apparently, in her group, if you don't bring snack twice, you're out.

但在家里，我听到系统工程师们互相转告，说他们正等着决定谁去带狗出去，而狗马上就要在地毯上撒尿了。

But the home, I have systems engineers telling systems engineers telling me that they're waiting to decide who's taking the dog out right when it's about to take a pee on the rug.

当你陷入这种混乱漩涡时，我们的研究发现，不仅公平分配有效，而且婚姻满意度会显著下降。

And and when you get into this chaos spiral, we found in our study that not only does fair play work, but that marital satisfaction decreases significantly.

而且，性欲是我们研究中女性描述婚姻满意度的一种方式。

And and and and sex drive was one of those ways that women in our study describe marital satisfaction.

和伴侣提起这件事最好的方式是什么？

What's the best way to bring it up with your partner?

因为也许他们会变得防御。

Because maybe they'll be defensive.

他们会说：不。

And they'll say like, no.

我都在买芥末了，我还做了别的，你还想让我怎样？

I am doing mustard shopping, and I'm doing What do you want from me?

完全正确。

Totally.

比我爸爸的还强。

More than my dad's best

我可以。

I can.

是的。

Yeah.

这种情况经常发生。

That happens all the time.

这绝对是让我最深刻反思公平分工的事情，因为我认为，任何从事医疗行业的人家都知道，如果能让患者多走路，他们的健康状况会更好，但就是没法让患者去走路。

It's definitely the thing that makes me the most reflective about fair play because I think for anybody who's in maybe the health profession, they know that if they have their patients walk more, that they're gonna be healthier, but they can't get their patients to walk.

有点像这种情况。

It's sort of like that.

对吧？

Right?

公平游戏最难的地方、最大的入门障碍，其实是展开对话。

The hardest thing, the biggest barrier to entry for fair play is actually having the conversation.

所以在这种情况下，如果你家里有一位非常开明的帮手，那你完全可以直接切入系统的部分来谈。

So what I say in that situation, if you are somebody who you have a wonderful open helper in your home right now, then you can absolutely launch into the system's part of the conversation.

嘿。

Hey.

我发现了一个特别棒的系统。

I found this really cool system.

它就像Asana或Trello，能让我们生活更高效。

It's like an Asana or Trello, and it's here to make our lives more efficient.

所以我说，有三种方式可以进入。

So I say there's three ways you can enter.

那就是系统。

That's systems.

不过，入门有一个秘密公式，还有另外两种方式。

There's a secret formula, though, for entry, and there's two other ways.

一是界限，二是沟通。

One is boundaries, and the other is communication.

所以我称之为，你可以做一个二十秒的自我评估。

So I call it, like, your you can take a twenty second assessment.

我们可以让听众来做这个评估。

We can ask your listeners to do that.

我是否在沟通上最困扰？

Do I struggle most with communication?

我是否在系统上最困扰？

Do I struggle most with systems?

我是否在界限上最困扰？

Do I struggle most with boundaries?

我会建议从最难的那一点开始。

And And I would say start with the thing that's hardest.

我的意思是，当轮到我思考如何向赛斯提出这个问题时，我在三个方面都感到困扰。

And what I mean by that is I struggled with all three when it was my turn to come up and think about how I was gonna bring this up to Seth.

但当我同时在边界、系统和沟通上挣扎时，我意识到对我而言，最难调整的是边界问题。

But when I was struggling with all three boundary systems in communication, I realized my boundaries for me were the hardest thing to rectify.

也就是说，我不断打破自己的边界。

Meaning, I kept breaching my boundaries.

我会说，今晚让塞思去给孩子洗澡，或者我要和朋友出去。

I would say, I'm gonna have Seth do bath tonight or I'm gonna go out with my friends.

然后我会叹气：唉。

And then I'd be like, ugh.

你又做到了。

You did it.

我的孩子需要我，我应该就去照顾他。

My child wants me, and I I should just do it.

我回家后再去。

I'll come home.

我之后再出去，结果就累了，然后就开始怨恨，你知道的，心生怨气。

I'll go out after, and then I'm tired, then I'm resentment, you know, resentful.

所以我必须认真思考，为什么我总是突破自己的界限。

And so I really had to think about why it was that I kept reaching my boundaries.

然后我才开始思考那些时间上的问题，天啊。

And then that's when I started to think about those time things that, wow.

你知道吗？

You know?

我注意到，我真正感到不满的并不是芥末。

I noticed that it's not I'm not really resentful about the mustard.

我感到不满的是，塞思在孩子们睡后还有三个小时可以看体育集锦、锻炼身体、完成PPT演示文稿，而我却一直在为家庭奔波，直到头碰到枕头，那时塞思早就睡了一个小时了。

I'm resentful about the fact that Seth has three hours after our kids go to bed to watch sports center workout and finish a PowerPoint deck where I'm doing things in service of our home till my head hits the pillow, and that's still an hour after Seth goes to bed.

所以当我终于意识到这才是问题所在，以及什么是替代方案时，妮可，你觉得呢？

And so I think when I finally realized that that was the issue and that I was and what was the alternative, Nicole?

是什么？

What is it?

告诉我。

Tell me.

替代方案？

Alternative?

提出这个问题的替代方案是什么？

What is the alternative to bringing this up?

嗯，离婚。

There well, divorce.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我一直思考的原因。

That's why I kept thinking.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我成长的方式。

Which is how I grew up.

我知道你和我，我们之前聊过各自的背景。

And I know you and I, and we talked about our backgrounds.

对吧？

Right?

那并不是一个容易的选择。

It's not that's not an easy option.

所以我一直在想，我会把这写在我的日记里。

So I kept thinking what and I would write this in my journal.

对于那些不想提起这件事、不想公平相处的女性，我一直在想，那还有什么别的选择呢？

For women who are don't wanna bring this up, who don't wanna practice fair play, I kept saying, well, what's the alternative?

对我来说，那就是变成一个灰暗的自己，内心死去，还要去照顾我的伴侣。

For me, it was being a gray version of myself and dying inside and parenting my partner.

我的意思是，这听起来太糟糕了。

I mean, that sounds terrible.

离婚。

Divorce.

我不知道。

I don't know.

情感出轨。

Emotional affairs.

我的意思是，很多女性，埃丝特·佩雷尔经常谈到这一点。

I mean, lot of women Esther Perel talks about that a lot.

或者最终，干脆设立界限，说：‘塞思，你知道吗？’

Or finally, just having the boundary to say, you know what, Seth?

我注意到一个现象：你们的孩子上床后，你们有三个小时可以看体育新闻、锻炼、完成PPT。

I noticed this phenomenon that you get three hours after our kids go to bed to watch sports center, workout, finish a PowerPoint deck.

而我则一直在为家庭做事，直到头碰到枕头。

And I'm doing things in service of our home until my head hits the pillow.

是的，你赚的钱比我多，但我的工作同样充满压力，对社会同样有影响力。

And, yes, you make more money than me, but I have a stressful job that's just as impactful to the world.

这并不意味着所有事情都要五五开，但我再也不愿忍受这种时间上的不平等了。

And that's not gonna mean everything's gonna be fifty fifty, but I'm no longer willing to live with this time discrepancy.

但是，妮可，我为自己做了很多努力。

But, Nicole, I took a lot of work on myself.

这就是为什么我觉得我们正在进行的这场对话或许需要一个预警，因为我觉得我正在给你另一个系统，就像你的财务系统一样。

And that's why I think sometimes I think the conversation we're having deserves a trigger warning because I I I think I'm giving you another system, another system like your financial systems.

这应该只是融入到你其他类型的对话中。

This should just slot into your other types of conversations.

但后来我意识到，由于我们被这样塑造，因为我们生活在一个父权社会，因为关系中存在如此多的痛苦，这对很多女性来说实际上是一场非常痛苦的对话。

But then I realized that because we've been conditioned this way, because we live in a patriarchy, because there's so much pain around relationships, this is actually a very painful conversation for a lot of women.

但也许如果你把它放在电子表格或数字上，就能减轻一些情感负担。

But maybe if you put it on a spreadsheet or numbers, like, it takes some of that out of it.

所以你说，坐下来，打开电子表格，可能玩个游戏。

So you say, sit down, like, open the spreadsheet potentially, play the game.

这才是你纠正问题的方式。

That's how you Correct.

开启对话。

Open the dialogue.

我的意思是，我相信你一定看过那个火爆的布琳·布朗视频，她谈到婚姻从来不是五五开。

I mean, I'm sure you've seen the viral Brene Brown clip where she talks about no marriage is fifty fifty.

那你怎么看？

So what do you think?

有时候可能是十比九十，或者九十比十，或者其他比例。

At times, it's ten ninety or ninety ten or whatever.

但随着时间推移，最终会达到五五开。

But over time, it nets out to fifty fifty.

这个框架正确吗？

Is that the right framework?

我喜欢方程式，你又在和其他嘉宾那里用了这些方程式。

Well, I love equations, and you have them again on your on on with your other guests.

所以我要给你一个方程式，对我来说，这个方程式是：责任与沟通。

So I'm gonna give you an equation where I think, to me, the equation is ownership, communication.

回到我之前说的，如果你有界限，能坚守自己的界限，你的伴侣就会对你说：妮可，我可能不是每件事都做对了，但我明白，你的时间和我的时间一样宝贵。

So back to what I said earlier, if you have a boundaries if you have boundaries, if you can hold your boundaries, your partner says to you, Nicole, I may not be doing everything right, but I do see your time is equal to my time.

我们每天都有二十四小时，我希望你能自主决定如何使用这些时间。

We both just get twenty four hours in a day, and I want you to have time choice over how you use that.

这就是界限加上系统。

That's boundaries plus systems.

所以《公平分配》就是一个系统。

So Fair Play is a system.

我认为，即使那些没有使用《公平分配》的人，如果他们说自己有系统，最终也会看起来像《公平分配》，因为这是一种大多数组织都在使用的系统。

Most people, I would say, who aren't even using Fair Play who say they have a system, it ends up looking like Fair Play because it's a system that most organizations use.

比如，史蒂夫·乔布斯提出过一个叫DRI的制度，即直接责任人，这和《公平分配》非常相似。

Like, Steve Jobs came up with something called the DRI, the directly responsible individual, very similar to fair play.

许多公司使用RACI框架，其中有人对任务负责。

A lot of companies use these RACI frameworks where someone is responsible for the task.

这并不意味着你不能让其他人参与规划，但你必须承担起责任。

Doesn't mean you can't include other people in the planning, but you hold the responsibility.

所以这并不是什么新奇或独特的做法。

So it's not new or novel.

公平游戏并不是一个更新颖的系统。

Fairplay is not a newer novel system.

它只是把这些出色的理念带入家庭。

It's just bringing these amazing concepts into the home.

所以这些就是系统。

So that would be the systems.

然后是沟通。

And then communication.

对我来说，这就是一个公式，当我看到——

So to me, that's the formula where I see, okay.

这对伴侣会走下去。

This couple is gonna make it.

我不在乎五五开。

I don't care about fifty fifty.

我想知道的是，你的伴侣是否愿意支持你设立界限，实施某种系统，让我们提前知道该做什么，而不是等到狗快要在地毯上撒尿时才匆忙带它出去。

I wanna know that you say my partner is open to bound to me holding my boundaries, to implementing some sort of systems so we know what to do in advance, and we're not waiting to take the dog out right when it's about to take pee on the rug.

家里也有一些沟通练习。

And there is some communication practice in the home.

我想说一点事情，因为你们之前问过关于如何进入这些对话的问题。

I just wanna say something because you were asking earlier about coming into these conversations.

通常，如果有人对我说，我没法提起这件事。

Typically, if somebody says to me, I can't bring this up.

我来举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

这有点好笑。

This is sort of funny.

我本来没打算提这个，但我认为值得说出来。

So I didn't think I'd bring this up, but I think it's worth bringing up.

在疫情期间，英国有一个Facebook群组，名叫‘我在新冠期间讨厌我丈夫和孩子的理由’。

There is a Facebook group out of England during the pandemic called the reasons I hate my husband and kids during COVID.

我非常喜欢这些直白的

And I love these literal

顺便说一下，命名规范。

naming conventions, by the way.

是的。

Yes.

那就是这个群的名字。

So that was the name of the group.

我认为这个群有两万两千名成员。

I think it had 22,000 members in it.

我经常收到这些随机的东西。

And I get a lot of these random things.

人们在葬礼后给我打电话。

People call me after funerals.

他们会在你懂的，看到之后给我打电话，我收到很多数据。

They call me after you know, see, I get a lot of data.

所以有人在群里标记了我或者给我发私信说，伊芙，你应该去看看。

So someone tagged me in or DM in this group saying, Eve, you should check it check it out.

他们在我评论下标记了我，那是一位女性在群组里写的评论，她说：如果我丈夫在新冠期间去世，那是因为我，而不是因为疾病。

And they tagged me on a on a comment that a woman wrote in the group that said, if my husband dies during COVID, it's gonna be because of me and not the disease.

明白吗？

Okay?

于是我通过私信联系她，说：我很想和你聊聊。

So I reach out to her on DM and say, I would love to talk to you.

我是一名研究人员。

I'm a researcher.

我很想和你谈谈，你是如何与伴侣讨论无偿劳动和家务工作的。

I would love to talk to you about how you discuss unpaid labor and domestic work with your partner.

于是那位女性回复了我，说：非常感谢你联系我。

So the woman got back to me and said, thank you so much for your reaching out.

很高兴我的评论引起了共鸣。

I'm glad my comment resonated.

我从不讨论。

I don't discuss.

我们从不讨论家务劳动。

We don't discuss domestic labor.

我们试过。

We tried.

没用。

It doesn't work.

我只是说在Facebook上。

I just meant on Facebook.

对。

Right.

所以想想这一点。

So think about that.

对吧？

Right?

而且我和这位女性很有共鸣。

That and I and I have a lot of empathy for this woman.

对她来说，在拥有两万两千人的公共平台上公开威胁要杀害她的伴侣，比直接和伴侣谈这件事感觉更安全。

For her, publicly threatening to murder her partner in a in a public realm of 22,000 people felt safer to her than bringing it up directly with her partner.

所以，如果有人觉得这件事很难开口，我想让你知道，我们看见你了。

So that's how hard if anybody out there is saying this feels hard to bring up, I want you to know that we see you.

我们知道这有多难，有时候退一步反而更容易。

We know how hard this is, and it is easier sometimes to back off.

但正如我所说，继续这样做的替代方案是什么？

But like I said, what is the alternative to continue to do that?

所以，这是对你关于五五分问题的长篇回答。

So this is a long answer to your question about fifty fifty.

我所寻求的是界限体系和沟通，因为当我遇到有人说他们拥有这些或正在实践这些时，通常他们会感受到家庭中的公平。

What I'm looking for is boundary systems and communication Because when I get people who say they have those things or they're practicing those things, typically, I get that they perceive fairness in their home.

我其实并不关心‘公平’具体意味着什么，但我希望看到双方都感受到公平。

I don't really actually care about what actual fairness means, but I like to see that both people are perceiving fairness.

但即使只是记录下这种算账的清单，也感觉很危险。

Well, even having a scorecard of whatever that tally is feels dangerous.

是的。

Yes.

这就是为什么如果你只用这些卡片，公平游戏会变得很危险。

And that's why fair play is a dangerous game if you just use the cards.

所以这本书和这些卡片本应是一个系统。

So the book and the cards are meant to be a system.

这些卡片中包含一种游戏，是一种工具。

And the cards, there is a card game that is a tool.

但我的观点是，我的宗旨是‘不伤害’，无论是在抖音、Facebook上，还是在书里，我都这么说。

But what I say is it's a do no harm in my mind where I say on every I say on TikTok, on Facebook, in the book.

警告：在没有先读过这本书，甚至没有先听过这个播客之前，不要使用这些卡片。

Warnings, don't use the cards without having read the book first or even listening to this podcast first.

问题是，如果你只是把它们当成快速记分工具，就会变得非常愤怒和怨恨，比如你看着卡片说：我手里有这么多，而我的伴侣一张都没有。

The problem is it becomes a very quick scorekeeping tool to get very anger angry and resentful if you're just looking at them and saying, I hold all these cards, and my partner doesn't hold any.

这种视觉呈现并不是让你说：我什么都有，而你什么都没做。

The the visual is not for you to say, I hold everything and you do nothing.

这种视觉效果是要表达：我们共同对抗这些卡片，因为无偿劳动太糟糕了。

The visual is to say, it's us against the cards, that unpaid labor sucks.

这需要时间。

It takes time.

它需要没人愿意学的技能。

It requires skills that nobody wants.

我永远不想学做饭。

I don't wanna learn to cook ever.

如果没有孩子，我会一直靠DoorDash解决吃饭问题。

If I didn't have kids, it would just be DoorDash forever.

但看看我们不得不掌握的这些技能，尤其是在孩子进入家庭之后。

But look at these skills that we need to learn, especially after a child comes into the home.

不幸的是，当孩子来到家里时，我们会增加40张额外的卡片。

Unfortunately, we add 40 extra cards when a child comes into the home.

所以现在我们玩的牌组是100张，而不是60张。

So now we we're playing with a 100 in the deck as opposed to 60.

然后你看着他们，心想：这就是我们家的无偿劳动。

And then you're looking at them and saying, this is the unpaid labor of our home.

永远不可能是五五开，但谁愿意承担什么，以及我们如何做才能让人感觉公平呢？

It's never gonna be fifty fifty, but who wants to own what, and how can we do that in a way that feels that there's perceived fairness?

所以，我认识很多全职在家、不拿工资的母亲，她们说她们手里握着大约70张牌，而伴侣只拿着15张。

And so a lot of, I would say, stay at home mothers who work for for no pay say to me that they hold about 70 cards, and their partner's playing with about 15.

但那15张牌是伴侣在承担，他们却觉得公平。

But that those 15 cards, their partner is owning, and they perceive fairness.

所以，我不关心人们怎么生活，妮可。

So I don't care how people live, Nicole.

我只希望他们能用这个工具，以对自己有帮助的方式。

I just want them to use the tool in a way that's helpful to them.

我的意思是，因为这些事太模糊了。

I mean, because there's it's so amorphous.

我相信你一定看过那个热传的视频，里面男人问女人各种东西放在哪儿。

I'm sure you've seen this viral video where men ask women, like, where random things are.

比如，剪刀在哪？

Like, where are the scissors?

杜德的洞在哪？

Where's the dudder's cave?

这是我最喜欢的其中一个。

That's one of my favorite one.

真的吗？

Really?

我希望他们知道

I hope they know where the

黄油在哪。

butter is.

不。

No.

有一幅《远侧》漫画，所以我对男人有一个刻板印象，叫‘黄油在哪’。

There's a far side cartoon that my so I have a stereotype of a man that I call where's the butter.

这来自一幅《远端》漫画，我记得是张周年贺卡，封面是一个男人打开冰箱，里面每样东西都写着黄油、黄油、黄油、黄油、黄油、黄油。

And that came from a I think it was a far side cartoon where there it's an anniversary card where on the front of it, it's just a man opening the refrigerator, and literally every single thing says butter, butter, butter, butter, butter, butter.

下面的标题写着：亲爱的，黄油在哪？

And then underneath the caption is, honey, where's the butter?

我的意思是，这说明男性把大脑空间外包了

I mean, but the point of that is that men are outsourcing brain space

没错。

Correct.

用于

For

比如孩子的冬衣在哪？

things like where is the kid's winter jacket?

是的。

Yes.

你知道的？

You know?

那么，当你开始思考所有这些精神负担，或者说认知负荷——这些显然是无形的工作时，你如何衡量它呢？

And so how when you start to think of all of that mental load or, like, the cognitive load that it feel it's so obviously invisible work, how do you quantify that?

好消息是，你其实不需要去量化它，因为你一定会感受到它。

Well, the good news is you don't really have to quantify it because you will feel it.

你一定会感受到它。

You will feel it.

我要说的是，你感受到最深的其实是沟通的负担。

I will say that the thing that is you feel the most is the communication practice.

那我这话是什么意思呢？

So what do I mean by that?

在我看来，公平性最能被量化的指标并不是人们手中持有多少张硬牌，而是人们进行了多少次检查确认。

I thing that's to me quantified the most of Fairplay is not how many hard cards people hold is actually how many check ins people have.

他们会告诉我，天哪。

They'll report to me, oh my gosh.

这个月我们做了四次检查确认。

We did four check ins this month.

我让尼科尔做的事情，是像开员工会议一样定期进行沟通。

And what I'm asking people to do, Nicole, is to check-in similar to a staff meeting.

但我们实际上从组织管理中已经知道这一点。

But we actually know this from organizational management.

如果公司有定期沟通的员工，这些员工更有可能向领导传达坏消息，而这对领导者来说是非常重要却常常听不到的信息。

If companies have employees where they have regular check ins, that employee is more more likely to deliver the leader bad news, which is actually a very important thing for leaders to hear that they often don't hear.

同样的道理也适用于家庭，人们会更愿意敞开心扉，倾听坏消息。

And so the same thing sort of applies to the home where people are more willing and open to hear bad news.

也就是说，比如这周你需要我帮忙做一件糟糕的任务——像为孩子们办疯狂帽子日之类的——如果你已经有固定的沟通机制，就会更容易开口。

Meaning, like, I need your help this week with a terrible task like, you know, crazy hat day for the kids or whatever, if you have a cadence of already coming to the table.

所以，这就是我看到人们最常量化公平游戏实践的地方：他们会说，‘这个月我们每周都完成了每周的沟通，感觉非常好。’

So that's typically where I see people quantifying it, the practice of fair play the most, where they'll say, we got our, you know, weekly check-in done every week this month, and it made us feel so good.

这就是我喜欢量化的地方。

So that's where I I love quantification.

但我要说的是，你其实并不需要量化，因为你一旦开始感受到它，就不需要了。

But I will say where you don't really need it is you won't need it because you start feeling it.

而那些真正能让人敞开心扉的对话，如果你害怕提出这些问题——这非常正常，就像我们提到的那位Facebook上的女性。

And the conversations that really allow people if you're afraid to bring these things up, which is very normal, hence our Facebook woman.

我喜欢这样说：提出这些问题的最佳时机是在纪念日或生日，你可以说：‘今年我生日时，我想用这些卡片玩一玩。’

The way I like to say it is the best time to bring things up is on anniversary, on a birthday, where you just say, for my birthday this year, I really wanna play with these cards.

我所说的用‘公平游戏’卡片来玩，其实你不必非要购买它们。

And what I mean by playing with the Fair Play cards, and you don't have to order them.

我们在节目笔记中提供了一个完整的网站链接，你可以访问。

We have a whole website in the show notes we can link to.

我们是一个非营利组织。

We're a nonprofit.

我们有一个研究所，免费提供所有资源。

We have an institute where we give out all of our resources

免费。

for free.

你知道，这正是播客应该有的样子。

You know how this the podcast should be.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我们常说，无论你是使用真实的公平游戏卡牌，还是使用电子表格版本

And and what we love to say is, like, if you're playing with the cards, the actual deck, or you're using a spreadsheet version of them

我生日时最想要的东西就是这个。

I have nothing I want for my birthday more.

没错。

Right.

和我坐下来，聊聊我书中所说的最低照护标准。

Is is sit down with me, and let's start talking about what I call in the book the minimum standard of care.

通常，关于公平游戏的对话之所以失败，是因为它们会从‘我来给你安排我们女儿的第一个生日派对，你全权负责’开始。

So typically, why conversations around fair play don't work is because they will start with, I'm gonna give you our daughter's first birthday party, and you own it.

这是一场关于责任的对话，你可以讨论这个想法的由来、规划以及派对的执行细节。

So that is a ownership conversation, and you can talk through the conception of what that means, the planning, what the execution of that party could be.

只是披萨和蛋糕吗？

Is it just pizza and cake?

是因为这是你的派对，所以要大办一场吗？

Is it a blowout because it's a party for you?

因为我就有这种感觉。

Because that's how I felt.

我最初的生日派对都是盛大的场面。

My first birthday parties were blowouts.

有全套酒水供应，你知道的，一百多人，因为我正在庆祝育儿最艰难的一年——在我看来，就是第一年。

Full open bar, you know, a 100 people because I was celebrating the the hardest year of parenting, which to me is the first year.

所以这更容易，但往往效果不好，因为你还没触及公平分工的核心——坐下来讨论你们家过去是如何庆祝生日的。

So that's easier, but it often doesn't work that well because you haven't actually come to the core of fair play, which is sitting down to discuss how were birthdays celebrated in your home.

所以这就是我想说的。

So that's what I like to say.

如果你很难适应，又不是那种喜欢建立系统、乐于提高效率的人，那就从沟通练习开始吧，比如在你生日那天，或者在其他情绪低落、思维清晰的时候，随便抽出三张卡片。

If you have a hard time, if you're not those systems people who are just willing to go in and make things more efficient, start with a communication practice, maybe on your birthday, maybe when another time an emotion is low and your cognition is high, and just take three cards.

我现在就把这些分配给你。

I will assign them to you right now.

去采购杂货。

Take groceries.

让我挑几个我喜欢的、有故事的。

Let me just pick some that are good that I love stories.

去采购杂货，去安排生日派对，去挑选礼物。

Take groceries, take birthday parties, and take gifts.

就选这三个。

Pick those three.

这三个是《公平游戏》100张卡片中的三个。

Those are three of the fair play 100 cards.

问问你的伴侣，你小时候是谁负责送礼物的。

And just ask your partner who did gifts in your home growing up.

你还记得收到过礼物吗？

Do you remember getting any gifts

你爱的吗？

that you love?

然后你打算怎么做呢？

And then how do you wanna do it?

对。

Right.

但‘你打算怎么做’这个问题更难，因为我们没意识到自己多么受原生家庭方式的影响。

But but the how do you wanna do it is harder because we don't realize how much we've been affected by the way things were in

我们的家。

our home.

我想给赛斯举个例子。

I wanted Seth I'll give you an example.

赛斯决定负责倒垃圾，而我成了他的垃圾跟班。

I want Seth decided to own garbage, but I was his garbage shadow.

我就是忍不住跟着他在家里转悠。

I just couldn't stop following him around the house.

他说：听着。

And he's like, listen.

我永远不会拥有这个，也不会玩这个游戏，如果你一直跟踪我的话。

I'm never I'm not gonna own this or play this game if you're stalking me

关于垃圾。

of garbage.

这就像，我是说，替朋友问一下，把马克笔从他们手里拿走。

This is, I mean, asking for a friend, taking the marker out of their hand.

对。

Right.

我也有这个问题。

I have that problem.

对。

Right.

所以在这个情况下，他根本无法理解发生了什么，为什么我一看到他倒垃圾就会这么激动。

So especially in this case, he couldn't really understand what was happening, why I was having being so triggered over when he took the garbage out.

然后，当我意识到跳过最低护理标准实际上并无帮助时。

And then finally, when I realized that skipping the step of the minimum standard of care was actually not helpful.

所以当我最终坐下来，对你说：

So when I finally said you know, I sat sat down.

这是几年前我正在制定游戏规则时的事。

This was years ago when I was developing the rules of the game.

我意识到，哦，就像我之前说的，法律体系一样，这类似于行为设计实验。

I realized, oh, just like the legal system back to the what I said earlier, this is designed similar to behavior design experiment.

在我们的法律体系中，尼科尔，每年我们会通过所谓的侵权制度裁决高达一万亿美元的案件。

In our legal system, Nicole, we adjudicate about a trillion dollars a year in something called the tort system.

所以，你知道的。

So, I mean, you know that.

但这是为了你的听众。

But you're for your listeners.

对吧？

Right?

如果麦当劳提供的咖啡太烫，你不小心洒在腿上，导致三度烧伤，麦当劳该负责吗？

If if McDonald's serves you coffee that's too hot and you spill it on your leg and you give yourself a third degree burn, is McDonald's responsible?

那么，我们如何判断麦当劳是否该负责呢？

So how do we know if McDonald's is responsible?

我们使用一种叫做‘理性人标准’的测试。

We use something called the reasonable person test.

这与最低护理标准和公平原则类似。

That's similar to the minimum standard of care and fair play.

所以当塞思对我说，你不够理性，竟然要求垃圾每天倒四次，因为我根本不在家。

So when Seth said to me, you're not being reasonable that you want the garbage to go out four times a day because I'm not even home.

所以别把空牛奶盒放在我的床边，别再这么被动攻击了。

And so that's not gonna so don't leave, like, empty milk cartons near my bed and stop being passive aggressive.

你要明白，在我们家，你可以通过每天只倒一次垃圾来恢复对我的责任和信任。

Understand that in our house, you can restore accountability and trust in me because garbage will go out once a day.

我不会告诉你垃圾什么时候倒。

I won't tell you when it's going out.

垃圾桶里会放一个垃圾袋，每天倒一次。

There will be a liner back in the bag in the bin, and it will go out once a day.

然后就像摩西分开红海一样。

And then it was like the Moses parting the Red Sea.

我的意思是，这可能是我们婚姻中最重要的对话。

I mean, it was the most that was probably the most important conversation in our marriage.

就这件事达成一致。

Aligning on what that means.

是的。

Yes.

期望是什么？

What's the expectation?

期望是什么？

What the expectation is?

希望没人住在房子里

Wanted, like, nobody lived in the house

对。

Correct.

对。

Correct.

一直如此。

All the time.

是的。

Yes.

对他来说，然后你得说，好吧。

And for him and then you had to say, okay.

现在这就是期望。

I that's now the expectation.

一天一次，如果你做到了的话

Once a day, if you've done that

但更多，但不，不。

But more but but no.

不幸的是，这并没有那么简单。

Unfortunately, it wasn't that easy.

我不得不真正回到我的童年。

I had to actually go back to my childhood.

这就是为什么我说，如果你从未做过这件事，请做我刚刚说的练习。

This is why I said, if you've never done this before, do the exercise I just said.

拿三张卡片——我刚刚给你的那三张，还有给你的听众，当情绪低落、认知清晰时，坐下来问问你的家庭当时是怎么做的。

Take three cards, the ones I just gave you, and to your listeners, and just sit down when emotion is low, cognition is high, and ask how it was done in your home.

最终，塞思，是什么改变了？

What changed, Seth, finally?

这就是为什么这些——不幸的是，公平竞争是一种实践。

And this is why these these unfortunately, fair play is a practice.

这就像锻炼一样，伙计们。

It's like exercise, guys.

现在我们听到的是力量训练。

Now we're hearing about strength training.

我们必须练习它。

We have to practice it.

这并不是一次性的对话。

It is not a one and done conversation.

这就像锻炼一样。

It is just like exercise.

其中一个重要的练习是与对方即将拥有的卡片进行最低护理标准的对话，而这需要时间。

And one of the big practices was having these minimum standard of care conversations for the cards the other person was going to own, which takes time.

所以我会说，入职过程就像公司里的入职一样，最好的公司需要六个月来完成入职。

So I will say the onboarding, just like in a company, onboarding in a company, the best companies take six months to onboard.

他们会安排一位导师。

They have a mentor.

他们会真正地让你融入公司文化。

They really indoctrinate you in the company.

最糟糕的情况就像我的律所那样，两天内自己摸索，然后我就很痛苦。

The worst, like my law firm was, like, figure it out two days, and then I was miserable.

但在Fairplay的入职过程中，不幸的是，情况并不理想。

But in the onboarding of Fairplay, unfortunately, it wasn't okay.

这将是我们标准的做法。

This will be our standard.

那是Seth。

It was Seth.

我可能之前在屏幕外跟你说过，妮可。

I may have said this to you off screen before, Nicole.

我从小在家中七岁就开始照顾母亲。

I grew up in a home where I was taking care of my mother starting at seven.

我们家门上贴过驱逐通知。

There were eviction notices on our door.

我帮她写房租支票。

I wrote out her rent checks.

我有一个患有残疾自闭症的兄弟，他占用了我们很多注意力。

I have a disabled autistic brother who gets a lot of our attention.

没人关注的是我们的厨房。

What didn't get attention was our kitchen.

有一个外卖袋堆在橱柜把手上，垃圾正从里面往外溢出。

There was garbage pouring out from a takeout bag that sat on a knob.

我们从来没有垃圾桶，每天晚上都是这样。

We never had a garbage can, and it was the same thing every night.

如果我弟弟想要水，而我妈妈还在加班，我会帮他，给他拿水，闭上眼睛，走进我们狭小的厨房，打开灯，但依然闭着眼，因为我知道，一开灯蟑螂和臭虫就会四处乱窜。

If my brother wanted water and my mother is working late, I would help him and get him his water, close my eyes, go into our small kitchen, turn on the light, keep my eyes closed because I knew that was how the cockroaches and water bugs would scatter when the lights turned on.

我不想看到它们，然后去接水，端给弟弟。

Didn't wanna see them, then went to go get the water and bring it to my brother.

所以我觉得赛斯必须理解。

So I think Seth had to understand.

是的。

Yeah.

我妈妈，他对我妈妈很有同理心。

My mother, he he feels a lot empathy for my mother.

他对我和我弟弟充满同情。

He feels empathy for me and my brother.

所以当他开始对垃圾及其所代表的意义产生共情时，这已经超越了垃圾本身。

And so when he could start feeling empathy for the garbage and what it's connoted, it was more than the garbage.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，当它变得歇斯底里时，它就成了历史。

And I think when it's hysterical, it's historical.

对吧？

Right?

就像你曾经经历过这些，

Like, you had this

我非常喜欢这句话。

I love that.

对它的反应。

Reaction to it.

也就是说，这想法是从哪儿来的？

Like, where was that coming from?

而你把它挖掘出来了。

And you uncovered it.

而且很多这类事情并不理性。

And a lot of this stuff is not rational.

对吧？

Right?

它源自童年。

It comes from childhood.

而且，你知道，有一种系统性的观念，认为女人应该负责。

And there's, you know, this systemic idea that, like, the woman is responsible.

我甚至注意到，我们的保姆，我们都在一个群聊里。

I even noticed that our nanny, we're all in a group thread.

比如，她会来找我，问我问题。

Like, she'll come to me and ask me the questions.

或者，比如公婆们只会问女人关于后勤的事情。

Or, you know, in laws will ask about, like, logistics, but just to the woman.

所以这既是代际的，又不是。

And so it's it's generational, but also not.

比如，比我年轻或和我同龄的女性，会本能地来找我，问关于我女儿的问题。

Like, women who are younger than me or my age, like, will instinctively come to me to ask questions about our daughter.

在学校里，你能想象他们对女性做了什么吗？

In schools, can you imagine what they do to women?

我的意思是，不管男人把名字排在前面多少次，我让那么多男人这么做，他们还是会跳过男人的名字，直接叫女人。

I mean, they no matter how many men put them their names on first, and I asked so many men to do that, They skip over their name, and they they call women.

那你对此怎么做呢？

And what do you do about that?

比如，你又把所有人都拉进一个群聊吗？

Like, do you put everybody on a group thread again?

学校打电话来我不接。

I don't pick up when the school calls.

我就是不接。

I just don't.

但你最终觉得呢？

And eventually Do you think?

比如，发生什么事了吗？

Like, what did something happen?

我会接。

I do.

或者我会接。

Or I do.

但我觉得自己在模仿男人的做法，然后想，好吧。

But I think I channel men, And I think, okay.

如果他们这么做时没有压力反应，那很可能就是安娜撞到头了，或者本因为口袋里藏葡萄被罚了留校，他上周确实因为这个被罚了。

If they do this without a stress response, you know, most likely it's, you know, Anna bumped her head or Ben got a detention, which he did last week over not eating grapes in his pocket.

他一直被禁止在学校吃东西，于是他就把葡萄藏在口袋里。

Like, he kept not allowed to eat in the school, and he was, like, keeping grapes in his pocket.

所以，通常你会祈祷事情只是这样。

So, typically, you pray that that's what it is.

敲敲木头。

Knock on wood.

但没错，我真的不得不对抗自己与生俱来的本能。

But, yeah, I I really have had to fight my instinct to do what comes naturally.

那对于那些辞职在家照顾孩子的父母呢？

And what about parents that leave their job to take care of the kids?

你觉得给这些事情赋予经济价值怎么样？

Do you do you like the idea of putting a monetary value to a lot of these

哦，当然了。

Oh, absolutely.

我也是。

I do.