旅行

波多。

Podo.

您正在收听《行动者与撼动者》，一档关于帕金森患者生活的播客节目。本节目由Boardwave慷慨赞助，这是一个专为欧洲软件创始人和CEO打造的高端社交网络。Boardwave是帕金森治愈基金会的热情支持者。欲了解该慈善机构在研究进展及筹款方面的更多详情，请访问cureparkinson's.org.uk。

You're listening to Movers and Shakers, a podcast about living with Parkinson's. The show is generously sponsored by Boardwave, an exclusive European networking community for software founders and CEOs. Boardwave is a passionate supporter of Cure Parkinson's. For more details on the charity's progress around research and its fundraising, please visit cureparkinson's.org.uk.

大家好，欢迎收听《行动者与撼动者》新一期节目，这档屡获殊荣的播客讲述与帕金森共处的故事。我是马克·马内尔。

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Movers and Shakers, the award winning podcast about living with Parkinson's. I'm Mark Marnell.

我是吉莉安·纳西·索洛玛。今天的话题是旅行——众所周知旅行能开阔视野。但考虑到我们许多帕金森患者面临的出行困难，光是想到旅行往往就会产生反效果，反而局限了你的视野。

And I'm Gillian Nathi Solomar. The subject today is travel, which we all know is supposed to broaden the mind. But given the difficulties many of us have traveling with PD, often the very thought of travel has the opposite effect, shrinking your horizon.

对我们而言，关于旅行的讨论往往实际是在讨论无法成行，用个时髦说法叫'访问拒绝'。这恰好也是跨党派交通委员会三月发布的一份尖锐报告的标题，报告指出：'无障碍环境亟需被认定为基本人权和反歧视保护问题，而非可选的客户服务事项。要实现这一点，整个系统各层级都迫切需要转变思维模式。'所以请大家系好安全带。叮叮。

And for us, so often a discussion about travel is actually about the inability to travel, access denied, if you like. And that happens to be the title of a scathing report from the cross party transport committee published recently in March, which said Accessibility urgently needs to be recognised as an issue of human rights and protection from discrimination, not as an optional customer service matter. And a change of mindset at all levels, the system is urgently needed to achieve this. So hold very tight, please. Ding ding.

小心台阶间隙。

And mind the gap.

哦，迈克尔。

Oh, Michael.

在我们正式进入主题之前，先看看都有谁在场。

So before we will get on board for the subject, let's see who's here.

尼古拉斯·莫斯廷，我是骑自行车来的。

Nicholas Mostyn, and I've traveled here on my bicycle.

很好。

Excellent.

罗里·凯瑟琳·琼斯，我乘坐女王中央线过来的。

Rory Catherine Jones, and I've come here on her majesty's central line.

可怜的梅·华蒂亚，我是乘火车来的。

Poor May Huatia, and I came by train.

我认为与帕金森症共处时成功出行的关键之一，就是坦然接受自己残疾的事实。我最近才真正想通这点，一旦跨过这道心理障碍并学会求助，就会发现外界提供了大量帮助。即便在伦敦步行或乘地铁这类简单的事上，我也开始拄拐杖——并非多么需要倚靠，而是让需求更显眼。不给颤巍巍的老头让座是一回事，但不给拄拐的颤巍巍老头让座，那可真是特朗普式教养的活招牌。这招管用吗？

I think one of the keys to traveling successfully with Parkinson is just accepting that you are disabled. I've only just done that recently, and once you get over that hump and ask for help, I found there's lots of it available. Even with things like simple, like walking around London or traveling on the tube, I've taken up walking with a stick, not because so much I need to lean on it, because it makes the need more visible. It's one thing not giving out your seat to a doddery old bloke, but not giving out to a doddery old bloke with a stick, that really marks you out as Trump spawn. Does it work?

管用，确实管用。只要晃晃我的拐杖。而且用它按电梯按钮也很顺手。

It does. It really does. Just wave my stick. And it's good for pressing the button on the lift as well.

嗯，我正努力抗拒将自己视为残障人士。也许这有点愚蠢。但几周前我十八个月来首次出国旅行时，确实被现实敲醒了。因为某只狗的缘故，我一直被困在家里，那次去了威尼斯度周末，非常棒。但我发现，十八个月后，我在机场的行进速度已慢如蜗牛。

Well, I'm trying to resist seeing myself as disabled. Maybe it's it's foolish of me. But I had a bit of a wake up call a few weeks ago when I had my first foreign trip in eighteen months. I've been marooned at home because of a certain dog and went to Venice for the weekend, which was brilliant. But I discovered that in eighteen months, my speed through an airport had slowed to a crawl.

我最终到达了，还算顺利。过安检时停下来重新整理行李箱，妻子耐心等待着。但我仍不觉得需要叫轮椅服务。可能是我太固执，但只要还能靠自己完成，我就想坚持。

I got there. It was okay. My wife waited patiently while I repacked my suitcase, having stopped at security. But I still didn't feel the need to call for a wheelchair. It was maybe stubborn of me, but I still felt as long as I could do it on my own, I would.

为什么？这是个尊严问题。我得说在威尼斯度假的三天里，我每次都超额完成步行目标，而那个月其他日子都没做到。所以旅行度假成了激励我走出去的动力。

Why? It's a it's a matter of pride. I I have to say during the holiday, we had three days in Venice. And on those three days, I beat my walking target every time, which I didn't for the rest of the month. So going on holiday traveling was an incentive to get out there.

我觉得如果当时请求协助，可能会影响我整个度假的心态。

And I I feel that if I'd asked for assistance, it would have sort of fed into my whole attitude to the holiday.

真的吗？为什么？为什么？

Really? Why? Why?

因为那会让我退步。我知道这一天终会到来——现在行动已大不如前，弯腰捡东西都很困难，有时还会突然僵住。但在威尼斯我仍能每天走10公里，并且为此感到自豪

Because I'd have taken a step backwards. I know it's coming. I've got a lot less mobile. I find it very difficult to pick things up off the floor. I do freeze at times, but I still did 10 kilometers a day walking in in Venice and felt great about it at

最后。

the end.

我现在就是没法正常走路，可能跟帕金森病无关，而是脚部出了其他问题。最近有人寄给我一本书，书名是《你为何要假装正常？》

And I just can't walk normally at the moment, and it's probably not a Parkinson's related thing, but something else with my foot that's going on at the moment. Somebody sent me a book recently called, why are you pretending you're normal?

我不确定自己是否完全没在假装正常。

Not sure I would not pretend I was normal at all.

现在每次坐火车或飞机，我都会申请登机协助，确保不会把这事和安乐死搞混。

Every time I go on a train or a plane now, I do ask for assisted boarding, making sure I don't get it muddled with assisted dying.

安乐死法案还没通过呢。

That hasn't been passed yet.

但你提到了冻结症状，罗伊。我经常出现冻结现象。这让我越来越尴尬，因为我堵住了别人——无论是通过门廊、上下公交车还是火车时都极其困难。这种时候就特别想直接放弃，从人们视线里消失。

But you said freezing, Roy. And I have freezing a lot. And I'm finding it increasingly embarrassing as I'm holding people up because trying to get through a doorway or getting on or off a bus or a train, it's really, really difficult. And the temptation then is to just not do it and just disappear from sight.

你觉得我们该不该弄个标识？就像孕妇在

Do you think we should have some kind of badge? Pregnant women on the

地铁上那样

tube, seeing

他们的车上有个婴儿。你觉得我们该挂个牌子写着

their baby on board. Do you think we should have a badge saying

嗯，我有根拐杖表明我患了帕金森。请给我点时间。

Well, I have stick which says I have Parkinson's. Give me time.

我觉得拐杖是个好主意。我总有一天会拄拐杖的，我认为那将是个合适的标志。

I think a stick is a good idea. I I will one day get a stick, and I think that will be a suitable badge.

而且如果有人惹你，你还能用拐杖打他们

And you can also hit people with a stick if they give

走开。

you away.

确实如此。

It's true.

我有次没拄拐杖就插队到前面，结果所有人开始大喊，滚回他妈的队尾去。但如果你拄了拐杖，

I went to the front of a queue once without a stick, and everyone started yelling, get back to the fucking end of the fucking queue. But if you did,

那是一个

that was a

正在与...抗争

struggling with

所以我的困境，正如你们所知，可能有些听众现在也知道了，因为我一直在反复提及，就是我的帕金森症状起伏得非常厉害。比如，我可以不用任何帮助就登上飞机，但飞机降落后，却急需帮助因为我动弹不得，或者反过来。我总在想，如果我坐着轮椅登机，三小时后却蹦跳着下机，人们会不会觉得我是个彻头彻尾的骗子？所以我假装不知道该怎么办

So my dilemma, really, is as you all know, and probably some listeners know by now as well, because I keep hopping on about it, is how terribly up and down my Parkinson's is. So I can get up on a plane without any help, for example, and then after the plane lands, need help desperately because I can't move or vice versa. And I always wonder when I If I get on a plane in a wheelchair and then sort of skip off the plane three hours later, do people think I'm a complete fraud? So therefore, I pretend to be don't know what

你不会真的蹦跳着走吧？我是说，我觉得应该心怀感激地接受电动车或轮椅的帮助。不过...

to You don't skip, do you? Mean, just gratefully accept the help of the buggy or the wheelchair, I think. In order But what

如果我在另一边其实根本不需要帮助呢？我和他们在一起时，情况是

if I don't really genuinely don't need the other side? I am with them, it's

完全没问题。你可能没其他人那么快，对吧？所以我觉得这样能卸下责任，而且

all good. You're probably not as quick as everybody else, are you? So I think it takes the responsibility off and

你觉得我就该这么做吗？

You think I should just do it?

是的，我有。当我骨折时

Yeah. I do. When I broke

几周后我的手肘受伤了，我不得不飞往直布罗陀，当时我有明显的标志因为我戴着吊带，被允许优先登机。这很棒，因为我正要去参加直布罗陀文学节，而安妮公主和特蕾莎·梅也在同一架飞机上。

my elbow a few weeks later, I had to fly to Gibraltar, and I was it was I had this visible sign because I had a sling I was allowed on first. And it was great because I was on my way to the Gibraltar Literary Festival, and both Princess Anne and Theresa May were on the plane too.

这是个名字

It's a name

炫耀。他们有

drop. Did they

帮你吗？

help you?

她们惊讶地看着我。为什么要点那个药膏？她们每人都有四个侦探。机组人员对这些名人完全不感冒，但后来玛丽·贝瑞上来了。哦。

They looked at me with surprises. Why that oint's been lit on? Each each of them had four detectives. The cabin crew were not at all impressed by these celebs, but then Mary Berry got on. Oh.

她才是那趟航班的明星。

And she was the star of the flight.

我和妻子穿过帕丁顿车站时，朱莉在快要走到火车时摔倒了。我们受到了帝王般的礼遇——尽管那是趟快车，我们还是被安排上了下一班列车，还买到了优惠票。按说我们本不该坐那趟车的。

I I found when we were my wife and I were going across Paddington Station, and Julie fell over just as she was getting towards the train. And we were treated like kings and queens. We were put on the next train even though it was a fast train. We got cheap tickets. We shouldn't have been on it.

后来我们在迪德科特车站开了个委员会会议。

And we had a committee meeting at the Didcot Station.

所以他们给你们送了香槟上

So they sent you champagne on

火车？差不多就是那样。服务品质简直太棒了。

the train? It it was almost like that. It was fantastic. The quality of the care.

我觉得人们真是了不起。

I think people are amazing.

他们确实了不起。

They are amazing.

如果他们知情的话。

If they know.

是的。我是说，我知道你有过不愉快的经历，但我发现这里的每个人都非常友善。

Yeah. I mean, I know you've had a bad experience, but everybody's really charming, I find.

嗯，不。让我也告诉你一个我遇到的温馨故事。我抵达莱顿机场时确实需要轮椅，当时身体非常不适。通常提供轮椅的工作人员都显得公事公办、态度冷淡。

Well, no. I had let me tell you about a charming episode I had as well. I turned up at Lydon Airport, and I did need a wheelchair. I was massively off. And the people who give you these wheelchairs are often quite sort of clinical and cold.

但那位女士却令人惊叹。我当时就想，天啊，这值得让更多人知道。我立刻掏出手机问道：您是谁？为什么能如此与众不同？

But the woman who was there was just astonishing. So I thought, god, this really does merit a bit of a wider audience. I whipped my mobile phone up, and I said, who are you, and how come you're like this?

我叫米娜·汗，在这里工作三年了。说实话，我真心热爱这份工作。帮助他人时，我会发自内心地感到快乐。

My name is Mina Khan, and I'm working here for the last three years now. And I really, really appreciate. Thank you so much for this part of my job. And I feel really happy when I help someone, to be honest. It's like inside me.

即使下班后遇到邻居或任何人，我也会主动提供帮助。说实话邻居们都很喜欢我。这种善意不只存在于工作中——无论走到哪里，我都相信善行终有善报。看到乘客时，我总想传递积极能量给他们。

Even if I am outside with my neighbors or anyone, I just offer them help. And my neighbors love me, to be honest. It's not just in her. It's like everywhere I go, I try to help because I believe if you do good, I'll come back to you one day. You know when I see my passengers, I try to give them positive energy.

我是个积极乐观的人，善意不仅限于称赞戒指（您戴的也很美）。那位女士拿着包看起来有些拘谨，我就想让她开心些——我说『您的包颜色真漂亮，我很喜欢』。正是这些微小举动能给人带来快乐和正能量，何乐而不为呢？

So I'm a kind of like positive person and it's not just about the ring. You're beautiful as well. And the other lady, she had a bag and she was looking a little bit tight to me, so I just wanted to make her day. And I said, your bag is lovely color and I like that color. So it's very small things that gives people like happiness and positive energy, so why not?

这真的没什么大不了的。

It's not a big deal.

这太不寻常了。我是说，这些微小的细节。那位女士对她说，看，你包的颜色真漂亮。要不要买下它？

It was extraordinary. I mean, these tiny little things. The lady who she said, look. That's such a lovely color your bag wear. Do get it?

但她的脸瞬间亮了起来。要知道，在机场这种地方，人们通常不期待会有人如此友善地搭话，正是这些小事让人意外。

But her face lit up. You know, it's these little things that people aren't expecting to be talked to really nicely in an airport, especially.

太棒了。真是个暖心的故事，真的。

That was great. What a heartwarming tale, really.

这很美好，而且非常罕见。让我们听听这个领域真正专家的见解，西蒙·卡尔德，《独立报》的旅行编辑，也是旅行话题的权威人士。西蒙，欢迎你。

It was lovely, and it's very unusual. Let's get the views of somebody who really knows in this area, Simon Calder, travel editor of The Independent and who is the leading expert on the subject of travel. Simon, welcome.

谢谢，吉莉安。我看了制片人的笔记，上面写着‘便宜且可行’。而我——

Well, thank you, Gillian. I saw the notes from the producer, it says cheap and available. And I'm

很高兴来到这里。是的。

delighted to be here. Yeah.

我会尽我所能提供帮助，但我担心我带来的消息可能好坏参半。

Well, I'm here to help if I possibly can, but I fear I'm gonna bring equal measures of bad as well as I hope some good news.

那么我能问你一个问题吗？

So can I ask you a question?

当然可以

Of course, can

问我吧。

ask me.

旅游公司有哪些法律义务？

What are the legal obligations of travel companies?

哦，天啊。不，在我们之前

Oh, God. No, Before we

我很想了解你告诉我们的这个非常暖心的故事，究竟是他们在履行法律义务，还是出于人性的善良。

I'd get to like to know this very heartwarming story you've told us, whether it's in fact them complying with their lawful obligation or whether they're doing it out of the milk of human kindness.

好的。基本原则是——我想我们广大公众都会欢迎——作为残障人士，无论患有何种障碍，你都应有权以尊严、关怀和尊重的方式平等接触世界的奇迹。这理应成为道德基础，法官大人，法律层面也是如此。虽然令人烦恼的是，法律在不同交通工具间存在差异，但正如我们刚才听到的优秀交通特别委员会报告所指出的那样，法律规定相对明确。

Okay. The general principle, which I I think we would all the wider public would all welcome is that you should, as a disabled person, with a PD or whatever, you have the rights to equal access to the wonders of the world with dignity, care, and respect. That surely, should underpin anything morally, but legally, your honor. So the law is relatively clear, although annoyingly, differs between one form of transport and another. But exactly as the excellent transport select committee report that we just heard referred to.

残障人士的证据表明，理论上存在的权利和义务与依赖人行道、公交车、出租车、火车和飞机上班、获取服务或休闲的人们日常体验之间仍存在巨大差距。他们理所当然地要求采取行动。那么我们应该避开哪些地方？坦白说，任何不在英国、欧盟或北美的地方，以及像新加坡、澳大利亚、新西兰这些你会得到很好照顾的地方。

The evidence from disabled people shows there's still a very substantial gap between the rights and obligations that exist in theory and the daily experience of people who rely on pavements, buses, taxis, trains, and planes to get to work, to access services or for leisure. And quite rightly, they are demanding action. So where should we avoid? Well, anywhere, frankly, that's not in The UK, the European Union, or North America as well as yeah. You you'd also be well looked after in places like Singapore, Australia, New Zealand.

不幸的是，一个国家的财富与旅行者受到的照顾程度似乎存在相当强的相关性。

Unfortunately, it appears that there is a pretty strong correlation between the wealth of a nation and how well travelers are looked after.

你去过所有地方。朝鲜怎么样？

You've been absolutely everywhere. How was North Korea?

我没去过朝鲜。但从无障碍设施的角度来看，韩国实际上相当不错，日本也是如此。

I haven't been to North Korea. But South Korea, actually, from an accessibility point of view, pretty good. Same goes for Japan.

残障人士有哪些救济途径？

What remedies do disabled people have?

非常少。部分原因是他们并不清楚自己具体享有哪些权利。因此形成了一种‘如果我们不告诉人们他们能获得什么，那么当他们没得到时就不会抱怨’的文化。但在铁路系统方面绝非如此，相关规定非常明确。

Very few. And part of it is not knowing exactly what they are entitled to. And so there's this whole kind of culture of, well, if we don't tell people what they can get, then they won't complain when they don't get it. Now that absolutely isn't the case in the case of railways. Absolutely clear.

管理英国最繁忙车站的Network Rail公司对乘客可享受的服务有非常明确的声明。许多需要车站协助的人告诉我服务很好，这很棒。但令人恼火的是你必须提前预约——像我这样还算幸运、身体状况相对较好的人，如果下午突然决定去布莱顿看阳光，说走就能走。而残障人士必须提前申请协助，他们到场就指望服务到位却往往落空。确实如此。

Network Rail, which manages the busiest stations in The UK, they have very clear statement of what you can expect. Now an awful lot of people who need assistance at stations tell me it is very good, which is great, but it's also very annoying that you have to request it in advance. Because somebody like me who's lucky enough to be in relatively okay condition, if I suddenly decide I'm going to Brighton this afternoon, the sun's shining, then I can go to Brighton. You would have to request assistance in advance, and they just turn up and expect assistance to be there is simply not delivered. Yes.

有时候可以这样做。

Can sometimes do this.

你不需要请求帮助。你只需要让他们摔倒。如果你摔倒了，那么你可能

You don't have to request assistance. You just have to have them fall. If you fall over, then you might

不。我对报告中的那部分感到相当惊讶，因为我想，你知道，是的。说残疾人应该像其他人一样能够旅行，直接出现，这听起来既正确又美好。但这有多现实呢？所以你必须配备工作人员，准备好轮椅。

No. I was quite surprised by that bit in the report because I thought, you know, yes. It's it's right and nice, I suppose, to say that disabled people should be able to travel like everybody else, just turn up. How realistic is that? So you've got to have the staff there, have the wheelchairs there.

是的。你必须要有承诺。而且，现实点看，你不可能在从伦敦到科茨沃尔德的每一站都有一支团队随时准备帮助需要帮助的人。但在所有大车站，应该是这样：我在这里。

Yeah. You've got to have commitment. And look, let's be realistic. You are not at every single halt on the line from London to the Cotswolds, have a team of people ready to assist those who need assistance. But at all the the big stations, it should be, I'm here.

我需要一些帮助。那么谁会来帮我，而不需要提前预约呢？主要问题当然是资金，铁路系统每秒都在亏损400英镑。那是纳税人的钱，而且是在为行动不便的乘客提供参差不齐的服务的情况下。

I need some help. So who's gonna help me out without having to book that in advance? And the main the main problem, of course, is just money, and the railways anyway are losing £400 a second. That's taxpayer money, and that's with, well, mixed services for passengers with reduced mobility.

我能提出一个完全不同的关于保险的问题吗？法律有点无聊。嗯，不。

Can I raise a completely different point about insurance? Sort of law was boring. When well, no.

这是

This is

一件非常实用的事情。

a very practical thing.

完全同意。是的。

Absolutely. Yeah.

当你患上帕金森病时，这个问题突然摆在我面前。刚确诊时，BBC正要派我去国外出差。我不太想这么早告诉同事，但考虑到万一出事可能涉及保险问题，还是觉得应该提前说明。人们预订假期时是否需要主动申报健康状况呢？

When you 've got Parkinson's this came up to me. Immediately, I was diagnosed. I was about to be sent off on a foreign trip by the BBC, and I didn't really want to tell my employees quite that early, but I thought I'd better because if something happened, there could be insurance implications. Do people booking holidays have to sort of say they've got conditions?

非常好的问题。这里涉及几个方面：首先，如果隐瞒病情——比如我有骨质疏松症，就必须申报——根据活动类型，有时需要多付几百英镑保费。但如果你因无关病症的事故住院，比如食物中毒，这不会影响理赔。

Really good point. Okay. So there's a couple of issues here. First of all, yes, if you fail to declare a condition, and for instance, I've got osteoporosis, so I absolutely have to say that, and I will, depending on what I'm planning to do, sometimes have to pay a couple of £100 extra for that. If you do not declare the condition and you have an incident that is involved with that condition, say you just, you know, fall ill because you've eaten something and it was awful and you end up in hospital, that wouldn't be a problem because it's not connected with your condition.

可一旦出事，保险公司会说'罗里你没申报帕金森病'，这样你的保险就失效了。

But if anything happened where they can say, ah, Rory, you didn't tell us about Parkinson's, so therefore, you're not covered.

比方说如果我去滑雪

If I went skiing, for instance

罗里，所有保险合同都遵循最大诚信原则。你必须披露所有重要事实

Rory, all insurance contracts are governed by the principle of utmost good faith. You have to disclose anything

那可能会影响医院的利益。

that might affect the benefits of hospital.

帕金森患者不希望任何人知道他们患有帕金森症。

With Parkinson's who don't want anyone to know that they have Parkinson's.

那么，那样的话就会使保险单失效

Well, then but then then that voids the insurance policy

因为它是

because it's

最大诚信合同之一。

one of the contract of the utmost good faith.

所以这是个重要的话题。

So it's an important subject.

这是个重要的话题。

It is an important subject.

关于这个法律问题，绝对的最高诚信原则应作为每份合同的基石。实践中，金融申诉专员服务处理的判例表明，如果你未完全申报且发生的事件与你的健康状况完全无关，你可能仍会得到保障。但这显然存在巨大风险。现在有一种理性选择是不购买保险，如果你要去欧盟任何地方。实际上，只要前往欧盟或瑞士，你就有权在公立医院免费或近乎免费地接受治疗。

And and just on that legal issue, absolutely utmost good faith that should underpin every contract. In practice, case law handled particularly by the Financial Ombudsman Service suggests that if you haven't fully declared and you have an incident completely unrelated to your condition, then you will probably still be covered. But obviously it's a huge risk. Now there is a case for rationally choosing not to be insured if you're going to anywhere in the European Union. Well, you're going to the European Union or Switzerland, then you have the right to be treated in a public hospital free of charge or next best thing to free of charge.

因此越来越多的人，尤其是年长的旅行者，会发现度假费用比所需保险更便宜。与其放弃出行，他们会说：'我要去西班牙，如果需要，我很乐意去他们的公立医院。我不需要行李保险之类的，也不需要空中救护车送我回国。'

And so increasingly, a lot of people, particularly older travelers, will find that the cost of the holiday is less than the cost of the insurance they need. And rather than not go, they will say, I'm gonna go to Spain. I am happy to go into their public hospital if I need to. I won't need all the baggage insurance and so on. And I don't need an air ambulance home.

是的。我能问一下吗？因为很多问题都涉及航空旅行这类事情。我以为对残障人士来说最困难的通常是公交车和人行道？

Yeah. Can I just ask about, because a lot of this is gonna be about airline travel and that sort of thing? I thought one of the most difficult things for disabled people generally is buses and pavements.

确实如此。这正是交通巡回委员会非常正确地指出'旅程的每个环节都重要'的原因。你会发现公交车设施并不完善，这归根结底是资金问题。例如小型车辆——现在越来越多地使用小型公交车——它们就不像大型公交车那样承担同等义务。

Oh, very much so. And that's why the Transport Circuit Committee quite rightly said every single part of any journey is relevant. And that's why you will find that that buses are not as well provided for as they might be. Again, that's a question of of cash. And for instance, if it's a smaller vehicle and increasingly, you're seeing small buses being used, then it doesn't have the same obligation as a larger bus.

但核心问题在于：尽管各方都希望提供完善的无障碍交通，但政府和服务提供商实际考虑的是'在当前所有政府支出都受到极端紧缩限制的情况下，我们究竟能负担多少'。

But it's all a question of given that there is an overall wish for proper accessible transport to be available, it's almost the government, the providers thinking, well, how much can we actually afford to provide given the extraordinarily straightened circumstances in which all government spending and is constrained.

如果要实施一项措施来改善残障人士出行时的不便，你会选择什么？

If you could implement one measure to improve the loss of disabled people while traveling, what would it be?

这与法律无关。关键在于公众意识。我们听吉莉安讲述她如何走到队伍前面却遭到嘲讽——真不愿想象那是哪个机场。必须让更广泛的人群产生更好的接纳度和态度转变，要明确认识到：在机场，需要协助的人才是真正的VIP。

It wouldn't be anything to do with law. It would be the wider public. We were hearing from Gillian about how she went to the front of a queue and was heckled. I hate to think which airport that was. For doing so, there needs to be a much, much better acceptance of and general attitude change among the rest of the population so that it's absolutely clear that at an airport, you have VIPs, and they are the people who need assistance.

而奇怪的是，情况几乎朝着相反方向发展。现在有些人滥用可以请求协助的规定——无需说明理由，只需说‘我需要协助’。最近有个单身派对团体通过斯坦斯特德机场时声称‘我们有隐性残疾’

And bizarrely, it's gone almost in the opposite direction. Some people are now abusing the fact that you can ask for assistance. You don't need to give a reason. You just need to say, I want assistance. There was a stag party that apparently went through Stansted Airport recently saying, yep, we've got hidden disabilities.

‘我们需要协助’。还有些人带着年迈父母出行时要求协助，比如‘能照看我父母吗？他们70岁了’，其实只是想要特殊引导服务送到登机口

We want assistance. Other people are if you've got sort of slightly elderly parents, then people are requesting assistance. Say, can you look after my parents? They're 70. And it's really just saying they want special assistance to be guided to the gate.

他们并不需要实质帮助。每次这种情况发生，实际上都在消耗资源。问题是...

They don't need any actual help. And every time that happens, it actually detracts, of course. How would

那你认为该如何提高这种意识呢？

you increase this awareness then?

像这样的播客节目，媒体能做的是...随着人口整体老龄化——我也包括在内——人们会逐渐意识到‘好吧，我们确实需要更多关注这个问题’

Podcasts like this, what the media can do, you know, I would hope that as the population generally ages, generally becomes, and I include myself in this, decrepit, then people will think, oh, okay. Yeah. We actually need to be much more aware.

我发现人们一看到我和妻子上车就会主动让座，他们太棒了。人性本善，对吧？

I find people give up their seats for me and my wife automatically as soon as we get on the they're amazing. People are wonderful, right?

特别是当你挥动你的标识贴纸时

Especially if you wave your sticker.

但这听起来几乎不像是个出行问题，不是吗？这是社会层面更广泛的问题，人们需要明白残障人士需要被给予更多时间、更多理解等等。

But that sounds almost like it's not a travel issue, doesn't it? That it's a much broader issue in society, that people need to somehow understand that disabled people need to be given a little more time, a little more whatsoever.

但这恰恰凸显了我早前所说的重要性——当你并非真正需要帮助时。

But that makes it all the more important, what I was saying earlier, that when you don't really need it.

是啊。但你不该...好吧。确实如此。

Yeah. But you shouldn't. Yeah. No. Fair enough.

没错。

Yes.

让我引用特别委员会报告里的话：'英国铁路公司的成立是世代难逢的机遇，应将解决无障碍问题确立为核心目标和责任。'嗯...这根本不会实现，对吧？

Well, let me quote something from the Select Committee report. The establishment of Great British Railways presents a one in a generation opportunity to fix accessibility as a core goal and responsibility. Mhmm. It's not gonna happen, is it?

不会。铁路系统正承受巨大压力。每届政府都作出完全相同的承诺，本质上就是说'铁路系统一团糟，我们会进行整改'。

No. The railway is under great strain. Every single government has exactly the same promise. It basically just says, oh, the railways are in a terrible old mess. We are going to fix them.

我们要整合铁路。我们要让一切变得更好。而现任政府的重大承诺是：'等我们停止每年向那些可恶的私营公司支付1.5亿英镑后，一切都会好转。'问题在于1.5亿英镑不过是铁路年度成本的零头，根本改变不了什么。无论英国铁路公司可能承诺什么，大幅改善辅助服务都是天方夜谭。

We're gonna unify them. We're going to make everything much better. And the current government, its big promise is that, yes, when we stop paying those nasty private companies a £150,000,000 a year, everything will be much better. Now the trouble is a £150,000,000 is, what, a fraction of what the cost of the railways is each year, so it's not gonna make that much difference. And whatever you think great British railways might promise, having much better assistance is not going to happen.

你所能期待的只有逐步的改善，这在一定程度上也取决于公众态度的转变。但具体到火车设施，比如对轮椅使用者至关重要的水平登车平台，依然不会实现。情况仍将是：费力地搬出斜坡，所有人因火车晚点而焦躁，还有人把自行车停在无障碍区域。恐怕这种状况会持续下去。

All you can do is that that hope that there are incremental increases, and that will also partly depend on changes in public attitude but on the particular subject of trains no they will continue not to have for example level boarding which is critical for people in wheelchairs. It will continue to be this getting some ramp out and everyone's getting crossed because the train's late and somebody's parked their bike in the disabled space. So I'm afraid that is likely to continue.

我能不能说，轮椅使用者拥有最靠近入口的黄金停车位这件事让我很惊讶？我觉得这不对。他们明明有轮子啊。好吧。确实。

Can I say I'm surprised that people in wheelchairs have the best parking spaces nearest the entrance spaces? Because I think that's wrong. They've got wheels. Okay. Yeah.

说得在理。那么对于有小额索赔需求的人来说，维权容易吗？

Fair fair enough. How easy is it for somebody who has got a small claim to make it?

非常困难。不是因为小额索赔本身难操作——你可以通过在线金钱索赔系统提交。但问题在于，据我所知的所有判例都不认可精神痛苦、情绪困扰这类无形损失的可计量性。索赔标的必须是可量化的具体损失。

Very difficult. Not because it's difficult to make a a small claim. You can do that through money claim online. But, unfortunately, all the case law that I've seen does not accept that distress, upset, pain is something that you can measure. It's gotta be liquidated, Yes.

举个例子：如果你因交通服务方未提供承诺的协助，最终不得不花费100英镑打车，这个实际损失在举证后可能获赔。但像'我们错过了婚礼前半场，这让人极度痛苦'这样的精神损害主张，法律是不会支持的。这很糟糕。

Effectively. So if, for example, you fail to get assistance in whatever transport thing and you end up having to spend a £100 on a taxi, then that's that might be recoverable if you can demonstrate that the transport provider failed to deliver what they were supposed to deliver. But you're not gonna say, and we missed the first half of the wedding, and it was profoundly upsetting. So it's awful.

问题在于我们都太逆来顺受了，对吧？这算是帕金森症状之一，所以我们不会追究这些事。

The trouble is we're all apathetic, aren't we? That's it's one of the symptoms of Parkinson's, so we don't pursue these things.

我不

I don't

我想我从未见过比这更冷漠的一群人了，恕我直言。

think I've ever seen a less apathetic bunch of people, if might say so.

但是，汤姆，让我们转到投诉的问题上，因为马克对此进行了详细调查，报告中也提到了相关内容。

But, Tom, let's move on to the issue of complaints, because Mark was looking into this in some detail and what the report has to say about that.

嗯，交通委员会发现很多问题都出在个别公司身上。他们指出了三个核心问题，首先是让残障人士自行投诉并应对他们口中不透明且低效的投诉流程，这成为了一种负担，既昂贵又充满压力，还要面对不确定的法律行动。我觉得朱莉你应该对此深有体会吧？

Well, the Transport Committee has just found a lot of it is down to individual companies. They say there's three core problems, but the first, it's left up to individual disabled people to complain and navigate what they call an opaque and ineffective complaints process, and it's burden, costly, stressful, uncertain legal action. I've got a feeling that you'd mind to chime with your experience, Julie?

是的。我在卢顿有过一次糟糕的经历。之后又遭遇了另一件可怕的事，我和丈夫被分开了。我到了登机口，却不得不长时间站在那里等待，而我的身体状况无法久站。然后检票员开始查登机牌，质问我‘你的登机牌呢？’

Yeah. So I had this lovely experience at Luton. And then following that, I had another pretty ghastly experience, which was that I got separated from my husband. So I got to the gate, and then we had to stand around at the gate for ages and ages, and I can't stand for so long. And then the woman's taking the boarding pass and started to where's your boarding pass?

我回答说登机牌在我丈夫那里，他就在前面。她说那好吧，我们去拿。我解释说我行动很不方便。时间就这样一分一秒地拖下去。

And I said, well, my husband has it, and he's up there. And she said, well, alright. We'll go and get it. And I said, it's very difficult for me. And the time went on and on.

到最后，整个过程变得异常艰难。

And by the time first of all, was very difficult.

你患有帕金森病。

You have Parkinson's.

哦，是的。没错。我本来可以的。但等到真要行动时，我连坐都坐不住了。我什么都做不了。

Oh, yeah. Yes. I had. But then by the time it actually, I had to go and get it, I couldn't even sit. I couldn't even I couldn't do anything.

我的震颤症发作得厉害。坐在那里浑身发抖，她还在冲我吼叫，叫我去拿票。我说我做不到。周围的人都觉得非常尴尬，有人说，我去帮你拿吧。

My tremor had taken off so bad. Was sitting there trembling, and she was still yelling at me, go and get your ticket. And I said, I can't. And all these people around me got who were terribly embarrassed, said, look. I'll go and get it for you.

我去和你丈夫说。这些人都过来留下了姓名。他们说你必须投诉，这太可怕了。她就是不肯去。

I'll talk to your husband. All these people came and gave me their names. You said you they said you've got to complain. This is horrific. She wouldn't go.

你知道，这对健全人来说根本不算事。她只是一直重复命令，那时整个飞机上的人都在张望，心想为什么这个女人被这样吼叫？为什么她不能去？而你知道，压力会加剧震颤，那时我已经......

You know, it wasn't anything for an able-bodied person to go. She just kept saying and by then, the whole plane was looking around thinking, why is this woman being screamed at? And why can't she go? And by the, you know, the way that stress sets off the tremor, by then, it was like, you know

你当时感觉如何

And how did you feel

面对整个危机？我只感到无比屈辱。就像在说，你为什么就不能走过去拿呢？我只能解释，因为我患了帕金森

about the whole crisis? I just felt so humiliated. It was just a well, why can't you just go and walk and get it? And I was going, well, because I have park

明白吗？你觉得她到底是怎么回事？

you know? What on earth do you think she was?

我简直无法想象。我以为自己可能真的也会摔倒。我就是不知道。我写了《条约喷气机》，然后我说

I just can't imagine. I thought I could have literally fall over as well. I just don't know. I wrote Treaty Jet, and I said

你知道，我告诉他们发生了什么。

you know, I told them what had happened.

首先，这是教科书般的处理。绝对完美，他们回来后说会查看。但当他们详细检查时，情况反而更糟，因为他们非常客气地提供了赔偿。他们说会支付——你知道他们有那种快速登机票，我们因为经常旅行已经用了好几年。所以他们今年说会免费送我们。

And first of all, it was textbook. It was absolute you know, they came back, and they said they'd look at it. And when they did look at it in detail, though, it was worse in a way because they offered me compensation very kindly. They said they would pay for what you know, they have these speedy boarding tickets, and we've had one for years because we do travel quite a lot. So they said this year, they would give it to us for free.

而我

And I

心想，太好了，真贴心。于是我说，好的，谢谢。但后来这事就没下文了。

thought, great. How lovely. So I said, yes. Thank you. And then it never turned out.

三个月后，我们仍然无法预订航班，因为我们需要那个凭证才能订票。然后人们也不回我电话，诸如此类。最后我写信给首席执行官，事情才出现转机。但你不应该非得给首席执行官写信，对吧，西蒙？

Three months later, we still couldn't book flights because we needed the thing to book a flight with. And then people didn't return my calls, etcetera, etcetera. And in the end, I wrote to the chief executive, and then things turned round. But you shouldn't have to write to the chief executive, should you, Simon?

当然不应该。这事本应以更好的方式处理。不过我经常收到投诉，不一定是关于我的工作，而是关于航空公司的表现。很明显他们把客户服务——当然——放在不如安全和股东回报那么重要的位置。所以你不得不这样做真是太糟糕了。

Of course, you shouldn't. It should be dealt with in a much better manner. However, I get complaints all the time, not necessarily about my work, but about the performance of airlines. And it's clear that they regard customer services, obviously, not as high a priority as, first of all, safety, of course, and shareholder returns. And so it's awful that you should have to do that.

这标志着某种绩效管理的失败。首先，你本不该有这种经历；其次，更不该需要你直接找首席执行官反映。所以，态度和一定的强制措施会有所帮助。但民航局——我最终建议所有人都向其投诉——他们的权力非常有限。他们真正能做的，就是如果收到关于某家航空公司X的投诉过多时，可以找他们谈谈。

And it signifies some kind of performance management failure. The fact that, first of all, you should have that experience and secondly, that it should require you to talk direct to the chief executive. So again, attitude and a bit of enforcement would be good. But the Civil Aviation Authority, which ultimately I would urge anybody to complain to, they have very limited powers. And all they can really do is if they get disproportionate number of complaints about airline x, then they can have a word with them.

所以这绝对不理想。如果像金融服务那样，有一个真正的后续运输人员的完善框架，那么无论是否残疾，对人们来说都会好得多。

So it's absolutely not ideal. And if there were a proper framework for a real transport onwards person, just as there is for financial services, then it would be much better for people whether they are disabled or not.

吉莉安，当你真的去找首席执行官时，发生了什么？

What happened to you, Gillian, when you did go to the CEO?

问题解决了，确实解决了。但我认为部分原因是我说要录制这个播客。但讽刺的是，我们找易捷航空时发现，他们有一个专门研究这个问题的残疾委员会，主席是——你还记得布伦基特勋爵吗？我们之前和他聊过这个问题以及整个议题，因为他本人长期残疾，我想是一辈子吧？而且他妻子最近刚被诊断出患有帕金森病。

It was sorted, and it was sorted. But I think in part, it was sorted because I said I'd do this podcast. But we did the irony actually of going to EasyJet was that EasyJet has a disability committee that looks into this issue, is chaired by, do you remember Lord Blunkett? And we talked to him earlier about that and about the whole issue, because of course he's disabled and has been for a long time, I think forever, hasn't he? And his wife now has also just been found to have Parkinson's.

我们和他们夫妇俩聊了他们的经历。

We talked to the two of them about their experience.

嗯，问题的一部分，所有经历过的人都知道，在于责任被分割了——航空公司负责什么，机场负责什么，你有哪些援助服务提供商，而这些仅涉及航空公司。系统的其他部分相当糟糕。我是说，铁路网络稍有改善，你可以提前预订服务，并有望真正获得。地铁简直就是噩梦。

Well, part of the problem, as everyone will know who's experienced it, is the fact that it's it's broken down into what's responsible for airlines, what's responsible for airports, what assistance provider you have, and that's only airlines. The rest of the system is pretty chronic. I mean, it's improved a bit on network rail. You can book services in advance with some hope that you might actually get them. The underground's a nightmare.

去年十月，我在地铁上出了事故，现在才差不多恢复。我的腿快好了，是吧，玛格丽特？差不多六个月后终于快痊愈了。关于航空公司，我现在担任易捷航空咨询小组的主席，试图推动一些改进。整个目的是让旅程不仅对那些需要帮助的人，而且对所有人来说，都更加可接受。

The October, I had an accident on the underground, which I'm just about recovering from. My leg is nearly healed, isn't it, Margaret? Just about healed after almost six months. On airlines, I'm chairing the advisory group now for EZ Jet to try and bring about some improvements. And the whole purpose is to make the journey not only for those who need assistance, but for everyone, much more acceptable.

因为如果你能为需要某种帮助的人把事情做对，那么同时你也会为其他人改善情况。这是一个挑战，因为显然存在商业压力，以及人们做事的传统方式，比如总是想让我坐轮椅，但当你带着导盲犬时这相当困难——要知道，你完全可以把狗套在前面当雪橇用，如果你真的

Because if you get it right for people who need some form of assistance, you're gonna get it improved for everyone else at the same time. That's a challenge because, obviously, you've got commercial pressures, and you've got historic ways in which people do things like always wanting to put me in a wheelchair, which is quite difficult when you've got a guide dog with you because, you know, you could harness him up to the front and treat it like a sledge if you really

想这么做的话。

wanted to.

关键是让人们说出什么对你有用。你们肯定都有体会，在状态好的日子，你能应付自如；在糟糕的日子，你会需要更多帮助。而促使人们主动询问，可以说是量身定制服务的关键推动力。所以我曾被安排使用升降车。

Just getting people to say what works for you. You you must all find this, that on a good day, you'll be able to to manage. On a bad day, you'll you'll want more assistance. And getting people to ask is a pretty prime mover, if you like, to tailor it to you. So I've been put in ambulifts.

实际上目前我并不需要升降车，我能自己上楼梯。你们中有些人会非常满意能送你登机的升降车。塔米·格雷厄姆·汤普森显然在铁路运输中遇到了大问题，她总在旅程结束时被遗忘在车厢里，类似情况屡见不鲜。

I don't actually, at the moment, need to go in an ambulift. I can get up the stairs. Some of you will be very happy with the ambulift that gets you up to the airline. Tammy Graham Thompson's obviously had major problems with the railways. She keeps being left in railway carriages at the end of journeys and things of that sort.

目前她正主持一个名为'任务完成小组'的组织，致力于整体改善交通服务，尤其是当下重点关注的航空运输。

And she's chairing a a group at the moment called a task and finish group on how to improve transport in general for people, but particularly airlines, actually, at the moment.

大卫，议会委员会指出核心问题在于：残疾人的出行被视作特权而非权利。你认为这种说法属实吗？

David, the parliamentary committee says one central problem is that travelling is regarded for disabled people as a privilege, not a right. Do you think that's true?

我认为过去确实如此，但现在正在改善。委员会严厉批评是对的，因为需要警醒各方采取行动。交通运营商往往口惠而实不至，未能真正落实支持措施。归根结底，无论是铁路、航空还是航运，关键在于对员工进行培训，并在其岗位变动时进行再培训。

I think it it has been. I think it's improving. I think they were right to be harsh about it because you need to shake everyone into action. The transport undertakings pay lip service, but don't always actually put the support in. It's training, you know, in the end, whether it's rail or whether it's airlines or whether it's travelling by boat, it's about training people and then retraining them as they move on.

玛格丽特，我很好奇你作为新确诊帕金森患者的视角，显然你也见证了戴维这些年的经历，你是否在为自己未来出行越来越困难做心理准备？

Margaret, I'm interested in what your perspective is as a newly diagnosed person with Parkinson's, and obviously having seen what David's come through over the years, are you bracing yourself for it being more and more difficult to travel for you?

目前我觉得顺其自然吧。我还在调整用药平衡，尝试每八小时服药一次，但这和接孙子放学的时间冲突。要么提前吃要么推迟，有些日子会轻松些。现阶段，只能接受现实。

At the moment, I think I'm just taking it as it comes. I I think I still need to get the balance right, trying to sort the medication out, trying to take it eight hourly, but that doesn't work with picking up the grandchildren from school. You know, I've either got to take it early or take it late. Some days are easier than others. But the moment, you know, it is what it is.

我无能为力，只能走一步看一步。

I can't do anything about it, and I've just got to see how things go, I think.

起初人在早期阶段总会过度自信，这是我的体会。现在我开始考虑或许该按下求助按钮，这听起来是个不错的选择。

And at first, one one feels almost overconfident, I found, in the early stages. And now I'm just beginning to think maybe I should press the button for assistance because it sounds like a good thing.

现在我们能结伴出行了，对吧？可以互相调整。对，你边行动边聊。当然，直到你真的需要轮椅之前。

When we're traveling together, we can now do it together, can't we? And we can adapt a bit. Yeah. Talk as you do what you're told. Well, until you you do actually need the wheelchair.

是的，节奏会放慢些。像盖特威克这样的机场尤其麻烦，登机口距离太远。这方面确实有挑战，所以我们必须共同适应，不是吗？

Yeah. It will be just taking it a bit steadier. Airports, particularly airports like Gatwick, are a because of the length of travel to the gate. You know, you've got real challenges there. So we're going to have to adapt together, aren't we?

我得变得更有用些。你一直支持我，现在该我回报了。

I'm gonna have to be a bit more useful. You've been supporting me. I might have to do a bit back.

我想，旅行运营商有正式的法律义务为残疾人提供便利，还是说这完全是自愿的？

There is a formal legal obligation on travel operators to make provision for disabled people, I assume, or was it all voluntary?

嗯，确实有这项义务，但民航局从未明确规定基本标准是什么。这就是目前的要求。他们在就如何更好地处理此事进行咨询时遭到了不少批评。民航局里确实有人非常重视此事并希望推动进展，但这需要更多动力支持。虽然我对现任交通大臣颇有好感，但不得不说她目前事务繁忙，我希望等局势稍稳后她能认真对待这个问题。

Well, there's an obligation, but the CAA have never pinned down what the basic standard is. So that's what is required. And they they were doing a consultation on how to approach this better and got quite a lot of stick. And there are people in the CAA who really do take this seriously and and want to progress it, but it needs a bit of oomph behind it. And I think that although the transport secretary who I have a lot of time for has got a lot on her plate at the moment, to say the least, I'm hoping it's one of the things that when things have settled down a bit, she'll take really seriously.

我会尽力对海蒂·亚历山大施加我的影响力——上周我刚巧见到她，当时我们在处理约克郡的铁路问题。再次强调，我们需要协调不同铁路运营商。或许'大不列颠铁路公司'能帮助重新统一基本标准，因为这正是我们讨论的核心，不是吗？是的，让我们以积极的基调结束这个话题。

And I'll try and exercise whatever influence I have over Heidi Alexander, who I happened to see last week because we were dealing with rail issues in in Yorkshire. And, again, trying to get different rail operators. May maybe Great British Railways will help to get something unified again in terms of basic standards because because that's what we're talking about, aren't we? Yes. Let's end on a positive note.

你们的播客可以带来改变。我会继续努力促成改变，这个世界比我年轻时已经进步了许多。我们必须保持乐观。

Your your podcast can make a difference. I'll try and continue to make a difference, and the world is a better place than it was when I was young. So we've gotta be optimistic.

那么西蒙，你对这个'一站式服务'的设想怎么看？你刚才提到了申诉专员，你觉得这能行得通吗？

So, Simon, what do you reckon to this idea of a one stop shop? You were mentioning the ombudsman. I mean, would that work?

必须行得通。我能想到的最佳范例是金融申诉专员服务，该机构由金融服务业资助——这个行业可比旅游业赚钱多了。虽然这是值得追求的目标，但对于大卫·布伦基特这样的人，对于在座的各位，对于所有人来说，如果你有合理投诉，它应该被倾听、处理，并采取措施防止再次发生。这才是人们真正想要的。总有一天我们会实现这个目标。

Well, it would have to. And the best example I can come up with is the Financial Ombudsman Service, which, course, is funded by the financial services sector, which makes a heck of a lot more money than the travel industry ever will. So that's a good thing to aim for, but certainly for people like David Blunkett, for people here, for everybody, there it should be quite straightforward if you have a legitimate complaint that it should be heard and acted on and steps taken to avoid it happening again. And that's all that anybody really wants. And one day we will get there.

但天啊，我大约三十年前开始从事这份工作，而我们在这一进程上并没有取得太大进展。

But my goodness, I started doing this job, what, thirty years or so ago, and we're not really very much further along that journey.

你看上去不超过30岁。

You don't look a day over 30.

当你登上飞机时，机组人员是否都充满恐惧，因为他们以为

When you get on a plane, are they the staff all filled with terror because they think

不，他们通常把我安排在洗手间附近的尾部座位。很好，也很合理。旅行是人类幸福的产业。

No. They normally put me down the back by the loos. Very good. Quite right too. Travel is the industry of human happiness.

它带来奇妙的变化。带我们走遍世界每个角落，丰富我们所见之人的生活。这是二十一世纪的伟大成就，我认为它应该完全开放，平等地供所有人享受。

It does wonderful things. It takes us to every corner of the world. It enriches the people we go and see. It's a great success of the twenty first century, and I just think it should be absolutely open and equally accessible to everyone.

此外，如果我们患有帕金森病，至关重要的是我们要走出去，展示我们患病的事实以及病情的真实状况。因为除非我们现身说法，否则无法获得更好的治疗。

Also, if we have Parkinson's, it's vitally important we get out there and show that we have Parkinson's, and this is what it's like. Because we're not gonna get better treatment unless we serve people.

下周带这位播客主去海地吧。太棒了

Let's take the podcaster to Haiti next week. Great

的主意。到时候见。

idea. See you all there.

您正在收听的是《风云人物》节目。本节目由尼克·希尔顿为Poddo制作。主题音乐由亚历克斯·斯托布斯创作，封面艺术由蒂尔·卢卡特设计。再次感谢百老汇的支持。您可以在我们的网站moversandshakerspodcast.com上找到关于播客每期节目的更多详细信息。

You've been listening to Movers and Shakers. The show is produced by Nick Hilton for Poddo. Our theme music is by Alex Stobbs and cover artwork by Till Lukat. Thanks again to Broadway for their support. You can find a lot more information about each episode of the podcast on our website at moversandshakerspodcast.com.