维塔利克：以太坊，第二部分

Vitalik，我想请教你，自从以太坊创立以来，你的角色是如何演变的。

Vitalik, I wanna ask you a little bit about how your role has evolved since it began in Ethereum.

在最开始的时候，在这一切之前，你曾经是个意气风发的年轻创业者。

So in the very beginning, before all of this, of course, you were once the uppity young entrepreneur.

到现在大概有六七年了吧？

It's been what, six, seven years now?

你从创业者转型为首席技术专家，再到政治协调者的角色。

You've moved on from being the entrepreneur, to being the chief technologist, to being the politician.

你现在是智能合约区块链领域的元老级人物了。

You're now the elder statesman of smart contract blockchains.

关于协议政治，你学到了什么？

What have you learned about protocol politics?

协议政治与常规政治的差异可能比你想象的要小。

Protocol politics is less different from regular politics than you might think.

当你把成千上万人聚集在一起时，就会出现这种涌现现象——有些情况下利益是一致的。

It's all this emergent phenomenon of what happens when you stick many thousands of people together and you have incentives that are aligned in some cases.

而在其他情况下存在竞争，不同群体持有不同观点，他们需要博弈解决，有时在同一个协议内，有时在不同竞争协议之间。

So you have some competition in other cases, and you have different groups of people that have different opinions and they have to fight it out, sometimes within one protocol and sometimes between different protocols where there's competition.

你会发现很多动态模式都惊人地相似。

A lot of the dynamics that you get are surprisingly familiar.

当人们捍卫自己观点时产生的那种宗教般的狂热。

The kinds of religious fervor that you get when people defend their opinions.

是区块较小的链更容易验证更好，还是区块较大的链能让更多人负担得起使用更好？

Is it better to have blockchains that have smaller blocks so they're easier to verify versus bigger blocks so that more people can afford to use them.

人们对某些事物持有强烈观点，就如同他们对宗教、民主、言论自由、福利国家或其他主流政治议题的态度一样坚定。

People have very strong opinions in the same way that people have strong opinions about either religion or democracy or freedom of speech or the welfare state or any other mainstream political topic.

你的事业建立在对比特币极端主义的回应之上，如今又见证了以太坊极端主义的兴起。

You built your career as a response to Bitcoin maximalism, and you've now lived long enough to see the rise of Ethereum maximalism.

三四年前这种现象似乎并不存在，但随着以太坊各种替代方案的出现，以太坊内部人士迫切需要将自己与其他群体区分开来，这一点已变得非常明显。

Three, four years ago, it didn't seem like something like that existed, and now it's become very clear that as you have all these alternatives to Ethereum arising, there's a strong need for people within Ethereum to set apart their identity from other people.

所以我很好奇，你认为该如何保持以太坊的健康发展，避免其社区像你曾目睹的比特币社区那样在文化和信仰上退化？

So I'm curious how you think about how to keep Ethereum healthy and not see the Ethereum community degrade culturally and religiously the way that you saw the Bitcoin community degrade.

过去十年间我领悟到一点：人们道德最败坏的时刻往往并非源于贪婪，而是出于恐惧。

One of the things that I feel like I've learned over the last decade is that people are at their morally worst, not out of greed, but out of fear.

这一点在主流政治、地缘政治乃至加密货币领域都同样适用。

And this is true in mainstream politics, and this is true in geopolitics and in crypto as well.

新冠疫情就证明了这一点。

COVID showed that.

那完全是由恐惧驱动的。

That was all fear driven.

俄乌危机表明俄罗斯进攻乌克兰并非为了获取油田。

The Russia Ukraine crisis shows that Russia is not attacking Ukraine to get oil fields.

而是出于恐惧。

It's out of fear.

所有应对措施都基于恐惧，从《爱国者法案》到疫情封锁，恐惧被用来为种种可怕行为辩护。

The responses are all fear based, and fear is used to justify all the horrible things from the Patriot Act to the COVID lockdowns.

恐惧驱动着这一切。

Fear drives it all.

因为贪婪总是以个人名义行事，却没人愿意承认这是自己的名义。

Because greed is always done in your own name, and nobody wants to do it in their own name.

恐惧总是以他人之名行事。

Fear is always done in everybody else's name.

于是你最终会陷入

So you end up with a

一群暗中较劲的白骑士互相争斗的局面。

whole bunch of stealth style white knights battling each other.

没错。

Right.

即便当领导者实际上既贪婪又平庸时，他们也是利用恐惧来向其他人兜售理念。

And even when the leader actually is greedy and mediocre, fear is what they use to sell it to everyone else.

我认为比特币和以太坊社区道德最败坏的时期，可能是在比特币现金的小区块派与大区块派战争危机期间，当时人们觉得比特币的未来愿景之间存在着零和博弈。

The times when I thought both the Bitcoin and the Ethereum community were both at their morally worst would probably be in the Bitcoin Cash small versus big block war crisis, where people felt like there was this very zero sum struggle between one vision of what Bitcoin would be and another vision of what Bitcoin could be.

许多原则被抛诸脑后。

A lot of principles got thrown out.

人们以各种方式表现得极其恶劣。

People behaved terribly in a bunch of ways.

以太坊这边有个名为DAO的大型应用遭到黑客攻击，大量ETH被困在DAO中。

In the case of Ethereum, there was this big application called the DAO, and the DAO got hacked, and a big portion of all of the ETH was stuck in the DAO.

如果不采取任何措施，攻击者几个月后就能将其取出。

If nothing had been done, the attacker would have been able to get it out after a couple of months.

而这发生在以太坊诞生还不满一年的时候。

And this was less than a year into Ethereum's history.

于是决定修改以太坊协议的规则，以救助该应用的用户。

So a decision was made to make a change to the rules of the Ethereum protocol to bail out the users of that application.

当时引发了巨大争议。

And there was this big debate.

有人认为早期可以破例一次，也有人坚持永不干预的原则，认为这些原则应从第一天就确立。

Some people thought this is fine one time because it was early days, and some people thought that it should be a principle that we never interfere, and it's best to start those principles from day one.

我们最终通过硬分叉修复了DAO事件，但遭到许多人反对。

We did end up hard forking to fix the DAO, and a lot of people disagreed.

这导致以太坊分裂成两条链——以太坊和以太经典，后者基于原则拒绝实施硬分叉，放任攻击者得逞。

That ended up splitting Ethereum into two chains, Ethereum and Ethereum Classic, where Ethereum Classic refused to implement the hard fork, so they let the attacker get away out of principle.

当时两个社区的行为方式都不够妥当。

The way that both communities behaved at the time was not good.

有人公开主张用商标法来取缔以太经典的存在。

People were openly advocating that we should use trademark law to try to not allow Ethereum Classic to exist.

还有人鼓吹对各类事物发起51%攻击。

And then people were advocating 51% attacks on all kinds of things.

我认为人们之所以能接受平时绝不会容忍的行为，是因为恐惧。

I think the reason why people were okay with things that they would totally not have been okay at any other time is because they were afraid.

以太坊社区害怕以太经典会取代并摧毁以太坊，而以太经典社区则担心自己的原则会被发展壮大的以太坊链颠覆。

Ethereum people were afraid that Ethereum Classic would replace and completely destroy Ethereum, and Ethereum Classic people would be afraid that their principles were being destroyed by Ethereum, which could then grow and overtake the version of the chain that stuck to its principles.

最终事态对大多数人来说得到了妥善解决。

The situation did end up working out well for most people.

此后以太坊再未发生过此类违背不可篡改性的事件，这是许多人未曾预料到的。

There hasn't been a violation of that kind of immutability on Ethereum since, which is something that a lot of people are not projecting.

许多人确实认为，一旦你违反原则一次，就会开启多次违规的大门。

A lot of people did think that if you violate the principles once, then it would be open season to do it many times.

但事实并非如此，人们选择在一年后不修复Parity钱包，就是为了树立一个反例，表明我们对此事是认真的。

But no, people valued not fixing the parity wallet a year later in order to set the counter precedent that we actually do take this serious.

一个名为Parity钱包的多签钱包存在漏洞，导致了巨额资金损失。

There was a bug in a multisig wallet called a parity wallet, which caused a massive loss of funds.

但需要明确的是，我认为道琼斯黑客事件的规模远超之后发生的任何事件。

But to be clear, think the Dow hack was much larger in magnitude than anything subsequently.

对吗？

Correct?

是的。

Yeah.

那次事件规模更大，而且非常独特，甚至可以通过分叉来修复。

It was much larger and it was very unique in that it was even possible to fix it with a fork.

因为通常发生黑客攻击时，DAO会立即获得资金，即使你想修复也无法挽回。

Because normally when a hack happens, the DAO gets the money instantly, and there isn't a way to fix it even if you want to.

因此DAO在这方面确实非常特殊且独一无二。

So the DAO was really special and unique in that way.

作为一名协议政治家，你认为自己在区块链政治艺术中最辉煌和最糟糕的时刻分别是什么？

As a protocol politician, what do you feel has been your finest moment and your worst moment of blockchain statecraft?

最不光彩的时刻，绝对是处理DAO分叉事件的方式。

Least proud moments, definitely handling the DAO fork situation.

确实有很多人因为DAO分叉而感到被背叛。

A lot of people did feel betrayed as a result of the Dao Fork.

许多人的确感到他们的期望被辜负了。

A lot of people did feel like their expectations got violated.

还有很多人觉得自己的意见未被尊重，尤其是那些反对分叉的人，他们确实感受到一种社会氛围：如果你反对分叉，那你就是邪恶的，因为你支持黑客窃取数百万美元。

And a lot of people who felt like their opinion was disrespected, especially people who opposed a fork, a lot of them did feel like there was this social environment where if you opposed a fork, then you're evil because you're pro hackers stealing millions of dollars.

这种氛围最终让很多人感到反感。

That environment ended up turning a lot of people off.

我们本可以采取更多措施来避免制造这种氛围，同时让人们在存在分歧时仍感到受欢迎。

There was a lot more that we could have done to not create that environment and still make people feel welcome despite the disagreement.

你是后悔这个决定，还是后悔做出决定的方式？

Do you regret the decision or you regret the way in which the decision was made?

我不认为我后悔这个决定。

I don't think I regret the decision.

我认为这个决定确实带来了很多积极影响，它确立了一个有争议的立场。

I think the decision did have a lot of positive consequences too in how it put a controversial stake in the ground.

人们以不同方式解读这个立场。

And people interpreted the stake in the ground in different ways.

我对这个立场的理解是：这是一个道德声明，表明你可以相信原则，但不必赋予这些原则无限权重，不必说我们会在所有可能情况下都坚持这些原则。

The way I interpret the stake in the ground is that it was a moral statement that said that you can believe in principles without assigning those principles an infinite amount of weight, without saying that we're going to stick to those principles in absolutely all possible circumstances.

这种适度的态度对我个人而言具有重要的道德意义。

And that kind of moderation is something that's very morally important to me personally.

这对我个人也有重要的现实意义，因为大多数采取更纯粹立场的人最终都会遇到极端到必须妥协的情况。

It's very pragmatically important to me personally too, because most people that try to take a more purist approach end up hitting a scenario that is extreme enough that you have to compromise.

如果你过于坚持绝不妥协，那么你的言论立场就会变得更加扭曲。

And if you committed too hard to never compromising, then your rhetorical posture becomes even more screwed up.

最好从一开始就对这些事情保持透明。

It's better to be transparent about these things early on.

务实的人和愿意以更温和方式看待问题的人，他们因此感到非常满意。

People who are pragmatic and people who were willing to look at things in a more moderate way, they're definitely very happy as a result of that.

但也有纯粹主义者，甚至有些相信适度原则的人实际上反对DAO分叉，这也很有趣。

But there are also the purists, and there were even people who believe in moderation that actually opposed the DAO fork, which was interesting too.

尽管发生了DAO分叉，大多数人最终仍坚持使用以太坊，但并没有很多人将DAO分叉视为一个分水岭时刻，让他们突然对以太坊产生深刻认识。

Most people ended up sticking with Ethereum despite the DAO fork happening, but there weren't a lot of people for whom the Dow fork was this watershed moment where, like, they were curious about Ethereum before then they realized, oh, wow.

不。

No.

这是一条中心化的邪恶链，很遗憾我们无法让所有人都满意。

This is a centralized evil chain, which is unfortunate that we can't satisfy everyone.

但另一方面，让所有人都满意成本高昂且极其困难。

But on the other hand, satisfying everyone is expensive and satisfying everyone is so hard.

我有时甚至想，如果我们在DAO分叉工作中成功满足了所有人，那么在推出权益证明时可能就不会遇到那么多政治阻力了。

I sometimes even think, had we successfully satisfied everyone during the DAOF work, then might we not have had much harder politics getting proof stake out the door.

我看到你在推特上承受了大量攻击却依然保持良好心态，Zuko似乎也做到了这点。

I see you taking incredible slings and arrows on Twitter and being very good natured about it, something that Zuko seems also to do.

协议的可见领导者或创建者——我甚至不确定以太坊是否还有真正的领导者——他们往往具备在公众视野中运作的能力，要么带着某种淡然，要么带着某种战斗性，这是普通人难以持续的。

The visible leaders of protocols or creators of protocols, because I'm not even sure if Ethereum is really led anymore, they tend to have this ability to operate in public either with a certain nonchalance or with a certain combativeness that normal humans, I don't think, could sustain.

这种情况是怎么形成的？

How did that come about?

你是否希望自己当初保持匿名？

Do you wish you'd just remain anonymous?

你是否必须经历一个学习曲线，来学会应对所有那些喷子、黑粉和攻击你的比特币极端主义者？

Did you have to go through a learning curve to learn how to deal with all the trolls and all the haters and all the Bitcoin Maxis attacking you?

你是否希望只需按下一个按钮就能从以太坊消失，然后以太坊就交由基金会管理？

Do you wish you could just press a button and disappear from ETH, and then ETH goes into the foundation's hands?

确实存在一个学习曲线。

There's definitely a learning curve.

我在过去几年的推特互动中犯过一些重大错误，特别是那些让自己在特定讨论中失控的时刻，我会说些话然后觉得必须为自己辩护，结果

There's big mistakes that I made in my Twittering in years past, especially times when I would let myself get carried away in a particular discussion, and I'd say something and I feel like I'd have to justify myself and I'd

越陷越深。

go into a deeper hole.

你希望自己没在推特上争论那么多。

You wish you didn't argue as much on Twitter.

你是这个意思吗？

Is that what you're saying?

是的。

Yeah.

随着时间的推移你会学到。

You learn over time.

有种优质的烈性啤酒。

There is a good stout.

它以优雅的姿态接受批评。

It accepts the criticism with grace.

你会学会该回应什么。

You learn what to respond to.

你要学会判断哪些事情可以放手，因为实际上反正也没人会注意到。

You learn what to let slide because realistically, no one's gonna see it anyway.

要成为优秀的推特梗王或加密领域的梗王，确实需要一种潜意识的直觉艺术。

There's definitely like subconscious intuitive art to being a good Twitter meme lord and being a good crypto meme lord in general.

你现在对ETH的影响力有多大，特别是与DAO分叉时期相比？

How much influence do you have on ETH today, especially compared to the DAO fork time?

因为我的感觉是，在DAO分叉时你参与得非常深入。

Because my sense was in the DAO fork, you were very involved.

但如果今天出现类似规模的事件，你相对于当时的影响力会有多大？

But if something of that magnitude came up today, how much influence would you have relative to what you had then?

我觉得自己在以太坊的影响力每六个月就会下降一次。

I feel like my influence in Ethereum keeps decreasing every six months.

我现在的影响力比半年前还要小。

I have less now than I did six months ago.

半年前的影响力又比一年前更弱。

Six months ago, I had less than I had a year ago.

而一年前的影响力又不及十八个月前。

And then a year ago, I had less than I had eighteen months ago.

如今，光是要说服足够多的人支持某个方向就很不容易。

These days, the number of people that even I have to convince to push in a particular direction is significant.

看看我个人推动的那些EIP提案，有些甚至都没能通过。

Watch some of the EIPs that I personally promote, some of them don't even make it in.

对于很多提案，你必须非常努力才能解决所有人的顾虑。

For a lot of them, you have to try pretty hard to satisfy all people's concerns.

你推动的最大但未被采纳的事项是什么？

What's the biggest thing you push that isn't getting adopted?

EIP 4488就是一个例子。

EIP four thousand four hundred eighty eight is one example.

如果我有更多控制权，我早就进入以太坊了。

If I had more control, I would have been in Ethereum already.

那是什么？

What is that one?

这个提案旨在短期内降低调用数据的燃气成本。

This is the one to do a short term decrease in the gas cost of call data.

这是短期内唯一能让Rollup更便宜的技术变更。

It's your only technical change that makes rollups cheaper in the short term.

在我看来，你在以太坊中不断演变的角色，很大程度上展现了区块链如何像宗教一样运作。

It seems to me like a lot of your evolving role within Ethereum shows ways in which blockchains are like religions.

想象以太坊最初是你作为魅力领袖创立的教派，就像在说：我们要从比特币宗教或Mastercoin宗教中分离出来。

Imagine Ethereum started off as a sect that you founded as a charismatic leader, and you were like, hey, we're gonna break off from the religion of Bitcoin or break off the religion of Mastercoin.

我曾信仰图灵完备性这些新原则。

I believed in these new principles of Turing completeness.

你曾是教派领袖，随着教派发展为教会，官僚主义增多，否决政治盛行，幕后机制日益复杂，很快你可能只是以太坊的魅力代言人，而正式领导权已自成体系。

Once upon a time you were the sect leader, and as the sect becomes a church, there becomes more bureaucracy, more vetocracy, there's more and more mechanisms that are developing behind the scenes, and pretty soon you might be the charismatic voice of Ethereum, but the formal leadership of Ethereum has taken on its own life force.

与五年前相比，你观察到以太坊作为一种文化是如何变得更加系统化的？

What is your observation of how Ethereum has become more systematized as a culture compared to what it was five years ago?

如今，协议决策往往通过一个叫做'核心开发者会议'的机制来完成。

Today, the protocol decisions tends to be done through this mechanism called the all core devs call.

这是一个每两周举行一次的会议。

This is a call that happens once every two weeks.

顾名思义，所有核心开发者都会上线讨论所有提议的协议变更，大家达成共识的内容会被采纳，若有分歧则不予通过。

As the name implies, all of the core developers come online and talk about all the proposed protocol changes and everything that people agree on gets accepted, and if people disagree, then it doesn't get accepted.

因此存在一个相当复杂的流程，所有变更都必须经过这个流程。

So there's this fairly complicated pipeline that changes have to go through.

第一阶段是构思阶段，第二阶段是完善阶段。

Step one is the idea making stage, Then step two is the refining stage.

接着需要说服越来越多的人，进行测试实现，最终形成正式提案（我们称之为EIP，即以太坊改进提案），最后提交给全体核心开发者。

Then there's the stage of convincing more and more people, making a test implementation, eventually turning it into a fully formalized proposal, what we call an EIP, an Ethereum Improvement Proposal, and then finally gets it to all Core Devs.

如果全体核心开发者都接受，最终就会进入硬分叉——也就是我们所说的以太坊协议升级，包含需要所有用户下载才能接入网络的协议变更。

And then if all Core Devs accepts it, then it eventually goes into a hard fork, which is what we call a protocol upgrade to Ethereum, which includes changes to the protocol that everyone has to download to get accepted to the network.

这是个漫长的过程，其中有许多环节需要不同人群达成共识。

So there is this long process, there's many points along the way where different people have to agree.

最初需要研究团队的认可。

At the beginning, the research team has to agree.

后期阶段则需要实际编写代码的核心开发者们的同意。

And then in the later stages, the core developers, the people actually writing the code have to agree as well.

相比三年前，现在的流程明显更严谨了，更不用说六年前我们还能快速通过并实施变更的时候。

So it's definitely more vitacritic considerably than it was three years ago, and definitely much more than it was six years ago when we could get a change accepted and it would get included very quickly.

即便现在，我感觉重大变更的窗口期正在关闭。

And even now, I feel the window is closing on substantial things.

即使在当下，要推动重大变革也变得越来越困难。

It's getting harder to do big things even today.

你对此有何感想？

How do you feel about that?

某种程度上感到解脱。

In some ways relieved.

如果你变得更加视频化，我就有更多退休的自由。

If you am becoming more vidocratic gives me more freedom to retire.

嗯，'退休'是个复杂的词。

Well, retire is a complicated word.

我觉得我会永远做各种事情，只是关于具体做什么。

I feel like I'll keep doing things forever about what kinds of things.

正如你提到的，我的角色正在以难以描述的复杂方式发生变化。

As you've mentioned, my role is changing in complicated ways that are hard to describe.

如果你不在EIF工作，你会从事什么？

What would you be working on if you weren't working at EIF?

好问题。

Good question.

我有一长串认为需要实现的事情清单，我会通过写作解释它们，可能还会投入自己的资金，组建团队来实现这些目标。

I'd have my big long list of things that I think need to happen, and I would do some combination of writing about it, explaining them, and probably putting some of my own money into making them happen, trying put teams together and make them happen.

这些可能包括账户安全（比如我们讨论过的社交恢复钱包）、隐私相关构想、我一直在推动的基于区块链的安全投票系统，以及实现理想的无信任去中心化社会所需的完整路线图。

This would be things like account security, like what we talked about with social recovery wallets, ideas around privacy, some of the secure blockchain based voting stuff I've been pushing, the entire roadmap of what do we need to do to make this ideal trustless decentralized society work.

你已经实现过类似的事情，比如Hasid使用的自动化做市商（AMM），这个想法源自你的一篇博客文章，后来被实现为Uniswap。

You've already had that, the aforementioned AMMs that Hasid uses automated market makers, that was an idea that came out of one of your blog posts, And then it got implemented as Uniswap.

那里还有什么容易实现的目标吗？

Any of the low hanging fruit there?

社交恢复钱包，我听说过这个。

Social recovery wallets, I heard that one.

区块链投票。

Blockchain voting.

如果你是一个正在听这个播客的年轻黑客，假设你没有在炒ETH，而是觉得这个世界需要这个。

If you're a young hacker listening to this podcast, and let's say you're not chilling ETH, but you're like, hey, the world needs this.

应该有人来开发它。

Someone should build it.

他们会开发什么呢？

What would they build?

目前，去中心化客户端是一个重要方向。

Right now, decentralized clients is one important thing.

寻找比运行全节点更便宜、但仍保持去中心化、不依赖服务器的以太坊区块链访问方式。

Ways to access the Ethereum blockchain that are cheaper than running a full node, but are still decentralized, that don't depend on a server.

随着权益证明机制的深入，这将变得更具可行性。

It's something that's going to become much more possible with this much deeper of stake.

虽然已经有些人在研究这个领域，但我们还需要更多人才加入。

And there are some people working on it, but we could use more people working on it.

应用层也有很多值得开发的东西。

There's things at the application layer that could be useful.

我看到有人在开发去中心化的VPN，这很酷。

I've seen people working on decentralized VPNs, are cool.

你是否觉得有些区块链应用由于可扩展性问题尚未普及，或者因为还没有人人都有钱包而未能起飞？

Do you feel like there's any applications of blockchain that haven't taken off yet because of scalability or it's not ubiquitous, not everybody has a wallet yet?

极端情况是什么？

What's the extreme case?

十年后人们用区块链做的事情，在今天看来会像科幻小说一样吗？

What could people be doing with blockchains a decade from now that seems like science fiction today?

某种基于区块链的去中心化社交媒体会很有趣。

Some kind of decentralized blockchain based social media would be interesting.

对社交媒体有价值的事情是将内容层和用户界面层分开。

The thing that would be valuable to do with social media is to split the layers between content and user interface.

内容应该全部放在一个共享层上，而人们应该在提供不同界面上展开竞争。

Content should all be on one shared layer, and people should compete on providing different interfaces.

Twitter和Reddit，它们的用户发表评论和投票。

Twitter and Reddit, its users make comments and users make votes.

唯一的真正区别在于人们用来展示内容的界面是什么。

The only real difference is what are the interfaces that people use to show it.

为什么不创建一个生态系统，任何人都可以发布内容，人们可以发布链接到其他内容的东西，可以创建表示赞成或反对的消息，还可以转发他人的帖子。

So why not create an ecosystem where anyone can go post stuff and people can post things that link to other things, and people can make messages that are upvotes and downvotes, and people can post other people's posts.

只需提供10种不同的浏览方式，它们可能有不同的呈现形式、不同的审核风格、不同的子社区，有些可能更自由，有些可能限制更多，有些可能更专注于特定领域，有些可能是自由言论区，有些可能是高度专注的科学讨论场所。

And just have 10 different ways of viewing, yet they might have different presentation, they might have different styles of moderation, you might have different subcommunities, some might be more free for all, some might be more restrictive, some might be more focused on specific areas, some might be free speech zones, some might be venues for highly focused scientific discussion.

但最终这些内容仍将共享网络效应，因为它们都遵循相同的通用标准，发布到一个去中心化的网络中。

But things would still end up sharing the network effect of having the same common standards of content being published to one decentralized network.

人们曾尝试过类似的做法，但都没有成功。

People have tried to do it somewhat, but nothing's taken off.

为什么会这样？

Why is that?

如果我们拥有一个超级可扩展的区块链，能够默认支持这类操作，那么这就有可能实现。

If we have a super scalable blockchain where we can afford to stick these kinds of actions on by default, then it could happen.

你崇拜谁？

Who do you look up to?

你心目中的英雄是谁？

Who are your heroes?

在加密货币领域，我非常尊敬Zuko。

In the crypto space, I have a lot of respect for Zuko.

Zcash是一个纯粹而高尚的项目。

Zcash is just a wholesome and honorable project.

它重视隐私，并且以这种非常友好的方式努力实现隐私保护。

It values privacy and is just working really hard at achieving it in this very friendly way.

他非常友善。

He's incredibly friendly.

他承受的谩骂量令人难以置信。

The amount of abuse he puts up with is unbelievable.

而且他是加密货币领域的元老级人物之一。

And he's one of the OGs in crypto.

他一直以来都出于正确的理由坚持在这个领域。

He's been in it forever for all the right reasons.

我记得早期和Zuko交谈时，我当时说，嘿。

I remember talking to Zuko in the early days, and I was like, hey.

如果你构建这个东西，它合法吗？

If you build this thing, is it even legal?

如果他们逮捕你怎么办？

What if they arrest you?

他说，我会想念我的孩子们，但我还是要去坐牢。

He said, I'll miss my kids, but I'll go to jail.

他是个真正的信徒。

He's a real believer.

他还有个习惯，即使别人攻击他，他也会转发他们的推文。

He also has this habit of retweeting people even when they attack him.

我最喜欢的推特时刻之一是在很多年前，有人发推对他说：‘祖科，别再转发那些没用的废话了。’

One of my favorite Twitter moments was years and years ago where somebody tweeted him and said, Zuko, stop retweeting useless crap.

所以，祖科当然转发了这条推文，结果这个人意外成了天才。

So, of course, Zuko retweeted this person who became an accidental genius.

现在我在努力回想我是否从祖科那里学到了这一点。

Now I'm trying to remember whether or not I picked that up from Zuko.

我确实认为祖科为如何用微笑建立社区树立了榜样。

I do think Zuko set the tone for how you build a community with a smile.

例如，现在祖科在讨论将Zcash转向权益证明机制，但他仍然因为创始人奖励之类的事情不断受到攻击。

For example, now Zuko is talking about taking Zcash to proof of stake, and he still keeps getting attacked over things like the founder's reward.

人们会说，你为什么要去创建一个山寨币？

And people say, why did you have to go build an altcoin?

为什么你要说它是比特币的一部分。

Why did you it's part of Bitcoin.

我记得最初他想把它作为比特币的一部分来开发，但他们拒绝了。

I remember originally, he wanted to do it as part of Bitcoin, but they said, no.

先把它作为一种山寨币实现，如果我们喜欢，再采用它。

Go implement it as an altcoin first, and then if we like it, we'll adopt it.

Vitalik非常清楚这个故事。

Vitalik knows that story well.

确实如此。

Exactly.

比特币试图成为某种特定的存在。

Bitcoin is trying to be a certain thing.

我确实认为比特币极具价值。

I do think Bitcoin is incredibly valuable.

它是始祖级的存在。

It is the OG.

但它在两个方面存在不足。

It does fall short in two ways.

一是不可编程，二是缺乏隐私性。

One is it's not programmable, and the second is not private.

这些问题能解决吗？

Can those be fixed?

除非对比特币的本质做出重大妥协，否则无法解决。

Not without severe trade offs to what Bitcoin is.

因此它在生态系统中占据着非常重要的位置——可能是最重要的部分——但这并不意味着它就是全部。

So it occupies a very important part in the ecosystem, probably the most important part, but it doesn't mean that that's the entire thing.

还有更多内容需要考虑。

There's a lot more to it.

比特币可能已经完美实现了奥地利经济学派'保护你的财富'这一基本用例，但还有更多应用场景。

And Bitcoin may have nailed the basic protect your money Austrian economic style use case, but there are many more use cases.

以太坊和其他智能合约区块链上如百花齐放般涌现的创新令人惊叹。

The thousand flowers that have bloomed on Ethereum and other smart contract blockchain since has been incredible.

正如Hasib所说，我们将看到区块链的激增。

And as Hasib said, we're gonna see a proliferation of blockchains.

首先，激励机制实在太强大了。

One, the incentives are just too strong.

其次，在去中心化、安全性和可编程性之间需要做出不同的权衡。

Second, there are different trade offs you're making between decentralization and security and programmability.

有些新兴项目宣称自己更具可编程性。

There are people coming up who are saying, well, we're more programmable.

Gorek表示你可以用JavaScript编写智能合约。

Gorek is saying you can write JavaScript based smart contracts.

还有人声称他们的产品开箱即用，速度更快、操作更简单。

There are people who are saying that we're faster and simpler out of the box.

你不需要处理二层网络、rollup扩容和分片这些复杂技术。

You don't have to deal with layer twos and roll ups and sharding and all that.

只需编写代码就能轻松运行。

You just write and it's easy to run.

这个生态图谱中有些部分我还不太理解。

There's some parts in the spectrum I don't understand.

比如币安智能链，其去中心化程度极低，他们只是挂了个名而已。

Things like Binance Smart Chain, the level of decentralization is so low, they just stick their name in it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这显然更适合那些不太关心去中心化，而更关注成本、性能等因素的人群。

But it's obviously for the people who care a lot less about decentralization, a lot more about cost and performance and so on.

这将是一个非常丰富的生态系统。

It's gonna be a very rich ecosystem.

区块链是向新型计算模式的根本性转变。

Blockchains are a fundamental shift into a new form of computing.

我认为你必须保持善意，因为存在许多不真诚的攻击。

And I think you do have to be good natured about it because there are all these disingenuous attacks on it.

比如伯克利教授写了长篇大论，说他的树莓派吞吐量更高，因此ETH或比特币会失败。

Like, Berkeley professor who wrote this long piece about how his Raspberry Pi has more throughput, and therefore, ETH or Bitcoin will fail.

这完全是无稽之谈的比较。

It was just a nonsense comparison.

根本就是风马牛不相及。

It's just apples and oranges.

你这是在拿飞机和汽车作比较，完全是两码事。

You're comparing an airplane to a car, just two different things.

然而他却写了长篇累牍的文章，也只有伯克利教授能干出这种事。

Yet, he wrote pages and pages of this, like only a Berkeley professor could.

我想这就是纳西姆·塔勒布所说的'IYI'（自以为是知识分子）。

I guess these are what Nassim Taleb calls the IYIs.

纳西姆的推特策略与Vitalik完全相反——如果有人攻击他，他会直接'处决'对方。

Nassim has the completely opposite Twitter strategy of Vitalik, where if somebody attacks him, he just executes them.

说到Vitalik时，你认为谁是你的敌人？

Speaking of when Vitalik, who would you say are your enemies?

不幸的是，弗拉基米尔·普京领导的俄罗斯政府现在是我的敌人之一。

Unfortunately, Vladimir Putin's lovely Russian government is one of my enemies now.

我五年前确实和他谈过。

I did talk to him five years ago.

我相信与人对话的力量。

I believe in talking to people.

我和普京交谈过。

I talked to Putin.

我曾与台湾地区的副行政院长交谈过。

I talked to the vice premier of Taiwan at one point.

我与新加坡政府的人员交谈过。

I talked to people in the government of Singapore.

我还与加拿大、英国等许多地方的政府人员交谈过。

I talked to people in Canada, UK, lots of places.

但与此同时，确实有些时刻你需要判断已经给予某人足够的宽容。

But at the same time, there definitely are times where you make the judgments that you have given someone enough latitude.

尽管给予更多人关爱是好事，但不幸的是，当前正有城市遭受轰炸。

And as much as it would be good to give someone even more love, unfortunately, at the present time, there are cities that are being bombed.

数百万人的生命、家庭和未来正面临被摧毁的风险，一个美丽的国家可能沦为第二个叙利亚。

There are millions of lives and people's families and futures that are being potentially destroyed and cut short and a beautiful country that risks being turned into Syria.

归根结底，首要任务必须是尽我们所能帮助受此局势影响的人们。

Ultimately, first priority has to be doing all that we can to help people affected by that situation.

这确实是件非常不幸的事，我公开表态支持乌克兰，并强烈反对所有试图摧毁乌克兰这个国家和民族的角色。

So that's a really unfortunate thing, I've been very public in speaking out that I do fully support Ukraine, and I do strongly oppose all of the characters that are complicit in trying to destroy Ukraine as a country and as a nation.

我用了一个俄罗斯脏话，这个词因乌克兰士兵在面对要求投降的俄军时勇敢反抗而闻名。

And I used a Russian profanity that some Ukrainian soldiers made famous because of how they used it as a brave show of defiance against Russian soldiers that demanded they surrender.

我对今日俄罗斯的负责人重复了这句话。

And I repeated it to the head of Russia Today.

所以我总的态度是，我不认为应该100%的时间都保持友善。

So my general approach was that I don't believe it being mean 0% of the time.

我认为偶尔可以强硬些，比如大约0.5%的时间。

I believe it being mean, like, maybe 0.5% of the time.

如果你只在0.5%的时间里表现强硬，这种强硬反而会更有效。

If you're mean only 0.5% of the time, then that actually makes that meanness more effective.

而如果你把刻薄当作默认的交流方式，人们最终会对此充耳不闻。

Whereas, you're the sort of person that being mean as your default mode of discourse, that at some point, people just stop paying attention to it.

比特币社区可以从中借鉴一二。

The Bitcoin community can learn from that a little bit.

虽然比特币圈里也有善良的人，但我们必须低调些，因为极端主义者占据主导。

Although, are definitely kind people within Bitcoin too, is we just have to be a little quieter because the Maxis dominate.

我想聊聊你生活中不寻常的方面，并非因为我们追逐名人或自我陶醉，而是这能指引生活方向。

I'd to talk a little bit about the unusual aspects of your life, And not because we are celebrity chasing or navel gazing here, but because it points towards where you can live your life.

对吧？

Right?

你生活的一个特别之处在于，你似乎没有大量房产和豪车，不走传统的炫富路线。

One unusual thing about your life is that you don't seem to have large collections of houses and cars, and you're not doing the standard wealth thing.

另一个原因是，你仍担任这个去中心化组织的领导者。

Another is you're still working as this leader of this decentralized organization.

你会说很多种语言。

You speak some very large number of languages.

你能否向我们描述一下Vitalik一周或一个月的生活？

Would you mind giving us an idea a week in the life of Vitalik or a month in the life of Vitalik?

看看这与普通人生活的不同之处可能会很有趣。

And it might be interesting to look at where it's different than the normal person's life.

过去六个月里，我先后去过旧金山、多伦多、阿根廷、哥斯达黎加、墨西哥和新加坡。

The last six months of my life, I was in San Francisco, Toronto, Argentina, Costa Rica, Mexico, Singapore.

总之去过很多不同的地方。

So a big long assortment of places.

我已经过了大约八年的游牧生活。

I've been a nomad for about eight years now.

2013年我开始这种生活，当时是为了比特币之旅。

I started doing that as part of my Bitcoin trip in 2013.

后来以太坊诞生了，我的比特币之旅仿佛从未结束。

And then Ethereum started and it's like my Bitcoin trip never stopped.

我只是继续前往不同的地方，因为我是那个愿意为参加活动而四处奔波与人交流的人，于是大家就不断推荐更多地方让我去。

I just kept on going to different places Because I was the person that was willing to travel to any particular events to talk to people, people just kept on piling more places for me to visit.

最终，这种生活方式就成了常态。

Eventually, that part of my lifestyle just became permanent.

而且你还捐出了惊人的巨额财富。

And you've given away ridiculous amounts of money.

对吧？

Right?

如果我没记错的话，ETH有七位创始人，你可能是其中最慷慨的一位。

ETH, if I remember correctly, had seven founders and you've probably been among the most generous of them.

你打算把所有或大部分财产都捐出去吗？

Do you plan on giving it all away or most of it away?

金钱对你来说不重要吗？

Does money not matter to you?

我计划把这些钱用于对世界最重要和最有意义的事情上。

I plan on putting the money toward things that are the most important and meaningful to the world.

你会说多少种语言？

How many languages do you speak?

这要看怎么算，大概在四到六种之间。

It depends on what counts, somewhere between four and six.

而且相当流利。

And pretty fluently.

对吧？

Right?

我有次在飞机上看到你说一口流利的中文，这让我有点意外。

I saw you on a airplane once speaking fluent Chinese, which caught me off guard a little bit.

这是你最近学的吗？

Was that something you learned recently?

哦，中文是过去五年学的。

Oh, Chinese over the last five years.

英语和俄语，是我从小就会的。

English and Russian, I grew up with.

法语是在学校学的，后来又学了点中文、德语和西班牙语。

French I learned in school, then Chinese and then some German and some Spanish.

我正想问呢，你说你还在比特币之旅中。

I was gonna ask, you said you're still on your Bitcoin trip.

你的比特币之旅什么时候结束？

When is your Bitcoin trip gonna be finished?

可能永远不会结束。

It might never be.

几年前我以为自己最终会安定下来，但疫情期间我在新加坡住了六个月，突然意识到——哇，我的大脑已经重塑了，我注定无法在一个地方久留。

A few years ago I thought that I would settle down eventually, but then during COVID, I spent about six months in Singapore and I realized that, wow, at this point, my brain is rewired and I'm just not meant to stay in one place.

这种游牧生活可能永远不会停止。

The nomadding is probably never going to end.

当我意识到自己彻底脱离常规轨道时，反而感到无比自由，而且我很享受这种状态。

It was liberating realizing that I'm off the standard track for good, and I'm fine with that.

我最后还有个问题，这对我的听众会很有帮助。

I got one last question which will be useful for my audience.

很多听这类播客的人，都在努力成为最好的自己——无论是追求最幸福、最成功、最健康还是最健壮的状态。

A lot of people who listen to these kinds of podcasts, they're just trying to be the best version of themselves, whether it's the happiest or the most successful or the healthiest or the fittest.

我想知道你是否有什么人生哲学，帮助你做决策，让你走到今天的位置？

And I'm wondering if you have any philosophy that helps you make decisions that you think contributed to where you are today.

一种有意识的哲学，比如：我该投入时间自我提升，还是去旅行，或是其他选择？

A conscious philosophy where you'd like, should I put time into my own education, or should I travel, or what have you?

对于正沿着常规道路前行的年轻人，你有什么建议吗？

Is there any advice you would have for a young person who's sort of going down the standard track?

常规道路就是上高中、读大学、拿学位、然后找工作，诸如此类。

The standard track is I went to high school, I go to college, I get a degree, then I go get a job, blah blah blah.

考虑到当今世界的现状和你所学到的一切，你会给他们什么建议？

Is there any advice you would give them given where the world is today and what you have learned?

努力让自己在每周结束时都比周初时更优秀。

Strive to be a better person at the end of every week than you were at the beginning of it.

'更优秀'的定义可以千差万别。

What better means can be very different.

可以是学到了新知识。

It could mean learn something.

可以是锻炼身体跑得比之前更快，可以是提升与他人积极互动的能力，可以是尝试新事物，去从未去过的国家旅行，积累新体验。

It could mean exercise and get better at running than you were before, it could mean improving your ability to interact positively with other people, it could mean try something new, visit a country that you haven't visited before, and add some experience.

认真度过每一周，不要到周末时觉得虚度了光阴。

Live every week so you don't feel like at the end of the week you've wasted it.

只要持续向前迈进，你就会做得很好。

Keep on moving forward and you'll be fine.

不要过着自动驾驶般的人生。

Don't live life on autopilot.

哈西德，你还有什么结束性问题、意见或想法吗？

Hasid, you got any closing questions or remarks or thoughts?

我知道不止我一个人认为加密世界欠你一份巨大的感激之情，因为你推动了它的发展。

I know that I'm not alone in saying that the crypto world owes you an enormous debt in having moved it forward.

历史伟人论的观点随时间推移显得越来越过时，但你是为数不多真正以一己之力推动历史进程的活生生的例子。

There's a great man theory of history that feels more and more outdated over time, but you're one of the few examples of a living person who has massively and single handedly moved forward history.

我知道你可能很难完全感知以太坊对世界的全部影响，但我可以说，我们现在人生中从事的事业很大程度上都源于你开创的一切。

And I know it probably is difficult for you to have the sense of everything that Ethereum has done in the world and feel it, but I can tell you that all of us owe an enormous amount of what we're doing with our lives to what you started.

我想补充说，令人惊叹的是你还如此年轻。

I would echo that by saying it's what's remarkable how young you are.

而你已经完成了多重身份转变，因为你曾为比特币的普及做出重要贡献。

And you're already a multi act person, because you contributed significantly to telling people about Bitcoin.

你通过创建以太坊做出贡献，又通过创建Uniswap和AMMs推动行业发展，现在又致力于社交恢复钱包和隐私技术等领域。

You contributed, obviously, by creating ETH, and then you've also contributed through the creation of Uniswap and AMMs, and now pushing social recovery wallets and privacy and so on.

你面前还有多重职业生涯阶段，我期待见证你未来的成就。

You have a multi act career in front of you, and I look forward to seeing the future acts.

正如你所说每周进步，这就是复利效应。

As you were talking about improve every week, that's compound interest.

而复利效应取决于迭代次数而非时间长短。

And compound interest is a function of number of iterations, not time.

随着你不断迭代，我很好奇最终会成就怎样的Vitalik，以及他将产生的巨大影响。

So as you keep iterating and iterating, I'm curious to see the Vitalik that comes out the other side and the huge, huge impact that he has.

说实话，对你这样的人来说，政治活动是浪费时间。

And honestly, for someone like you, politics is a waste of time.

当然，你必须参与其中因为需要协调众人。

And, yes, you have to engage in it because you have to coordinate people.

但我相信终有一天，你会产生某个伟大的想法。

But I'm sure at some point, you're gonna have some great idea.

而这一次，你不必再逆势而为独自奋斗，你将能够招募一支优秀团队并为他们提供资金，引导他们在平行领域打造同样具有影响力的事业。

And this time, instead of having to create yourself against all odds, you'll be able to recruit a great team and finance them and shepherd them into building something as impactful in a parallel domain.

非常期待那一刻的到来。

So looking forward to that.

我知道你经常做这类事情。

I know you do a lot of these.

我们试图让它有所不同，保持更高层次的视角，让它更具永恒价值。

We tried to make it a little different, keep it a little more high level, keep it a little more timeless.

你在播客圈子里真是精力充沛。

You're tireless on the podcast circuit.

再次感谢，希望能在以太坊社区对你有所帮助。

So thanks again, and hope to be helpful to you in the Ethereum community.