复杂触觉反馈用于脑控仿生手——Giacomo Valle博士

是的。

Yes.

所以你们还从其他类型的神经假体技术中引入了一些内容到这个项目中。

So you brought also something from other type of neuroprosthetics into this project.

具体是什么呢？

So what was that?

从历史上看，对于脑机接口（BCI）来说，目前所取得的成果都是由同一个团队、同一批人完成的。

So looking at historically, so for the BCI, what was achieved so far was by the same group, by the same people.

由于大脑皮层是按躯体拓扑结构组织的，我们首先需要编码接触信息。

So what we were able to do was since this the the cortex is organized somatoptically, the first point is to encode contact.

因此当用假肢手指触碰时——用食指触碰就感受到食指的触感，用拇指触碰就感受到拇指的触感。

So where the sensation is felt in order that if you touch with the prosthetic hand, when you touch with the index, you fill with the index, when you touch with the thumb, you fill with the thumb.

这其实相当直观：当你放置多通道电极阵列（本研究中用的是子宫电极）时，如果切换通道从皮层外侧移动到内侧，由于大脑的躯体拓扑映射，实际上就是从拇指区域移动到了小指区域。

And that was pretty straightforward because when you place your multichannel electrode array, so the uterine in this case, if you change channel and you go from the lateral to the medial part of the cortex, you actually move from the thumb to the pinky because of the somatography of the brain.

所以这部分实现起来相对容易，我们能够轻松地编码位置和接触信息。

So that was pretty easy to do, and we were able to encode the location and the contact pretty easily.

正如我们在外周神经系统所做的那样，你可以将刺激的幅度和频率与感知对应起来。

Then as we did for the periphery, you can map the amplitude of your stimulation and the frequency of stimulation with the perception.

与外周神经系统类似，我们观察到的是振幅越高强度越大，频率越高强度也越大。

So similarly to the periphery, what we observed was higher is the amplitude, higher is the intensity, higher is the frequency, higher is the intensity.

因此反应的强度是由这两个参数调节的。

So the magnitude of the response was modulated by these two parameters.

通过这种方法，就有可能编码力量，例如。

And with with this, it's possible to encode force, for example.

这实际上就是体感脑机接口的最新技术水平。

So that was actually the state of art of the somatosensory BCI.

能够提供接触感和力量反馈。

So able to provide contact and provide a force feedback.

当然，这已经足以完成功能性任务了。

That is already enough to do functional task, of course.

但是和莱曼一起，我们想，好吧。

But so with Lehman, we thought, okay.

这些设备的灵活性仍然非常差。

The dexterity of these devices is still very bad.

我们需要超越这个水平。

We need to go beyond that.

其中一个原因是它们表现不佳，因为我们提供的信息仍然非常基础。

And one of the things is why they're not very good is because the information that we provide is still very basic.

当我们触摸物体时，能立即感知其形状、纹理、曲率、边缘、温度分布等多种信息——仅靠接触力和压力反馈是远远不够的。

When we touch something, we know immediately the shape of the object, the texture, curvature, edges, where to take the temperature, so many different, like, information at the same time that contact and force are not enough.

为此，我们采用了我之前提到的两种方法。

So to do that, we proceed as as I told you in two ways.

第一种方法是研究大脑和神经元如何编码边缘、运动和曲率信息。

One way was, okay, let's see how edges, motion, curvature is encoded by the brain and in the neurons.

即这些触觉特征如何在神经元中被编码。

So how the these tactile features are encoded in the neuron.

而纹理、边缘等特征已被Slimon团队深入研究过。

And textures, edges, all these type of stuff was extensively studied by Slimon and his team.

另一方面，我也开始探索视觉皮层假体，因为这是另一种感觉假体，实际上早在六七十年代就已开始研究，之后出现了断层。

On the other hand, I started to explore also visocortical prosthetics because another type of sensory prosthetics that actually started before this in the sixties, seventies, then there was a gap.

而现在，西班牙、荷兰和美国的不同研究团队又重新开展这项工作。

And now, again, different groups in Spain and in Netherlands and in The US, they're they're doing this.

Neuralink公司也有一个关于视觉假体的项目。

And also Neuralink has a program on on visual prosthetics.

实际上，这个想法类似——将电极或某种电极植入V1区（初级视觉皮层），或者V2、V3甚至V4区，但主要聚焦于V1区，因为它与S1区存在相似性，正如我们研究S1区而电极植入V1区那样。

Actually, it's was a similar idea to place an electrode or type of electrode on the V one, so in primary visual cortex or also other V two, V three, and up to v four, but mostly like v one was focused on v one since there are similarities with s one because we are in s one and and those were in v one.

事实上，曾有实验表明：当你刺激视觉皮层时，会诱发光幻视现象。

And, actually, there were this experiment where when you stimulate the visual cortex, you evoke a phosphate.

即通过单通道刺激时，会产生不同形状或大小的模糊对比图像。

So this blur contrast image that's of different with different shape or different sizes when you stimulate from one channel.

我在非人灵长类动物实验中观察到，它们能够将这些光幻视组合成线条和字母。

And I I observed that in man in nonhuman primates, they showed that it they were able to combine these phosphates in lines and letters.

所以我的直觉反应是：好吧。

So my intuition was, okay.

这里没有触及。

Here it didn't touch.

我们没有磷酸盐现象，但当我们从一个通道刺激时，实际上受试者会在这里感知到一个光点。

We don't have phosphates, but when we stimulate from one channel, actually, the subject is perceiving one spot here.

如果我们把这个和另一个结合起来会发生什么？

What happened if we combine this one with the other?

所以这是个相当简单的想法，不是什么高深科学，但他们说好吧。

So it was pretty trivial idea, nothing like rocket science, but they're saying, okay.

让我们尝试以有意义且信息丰富的方式组合这些投射场，来编码某些信息，比如关于触碰你手指的物体的方向性和方位。

Let's try to combine this projected field in a meaningful way, in informative way to encode some information, for example, about the directionality and the orientation of something touching your finger.

为此，我们首先研究的是能否线性叠加投射场。

To do that, one of the first thing that we did was to study if you can add projected field linearly.

也就是说，是否真的能将这些投射场逐一相加，或者当你用两三个刺激时，它们的组合会呈现某种非线性叠加并产生新的模式。

Like, if you you can really add these things one to another, or when you stimulate with two or three, the combination is some kind of nonlinear combination and create another.

我们最初观察到的现象是：它们实际上具有相当好的可加性。

So what the first thing that we observe is that it are actually pretty additive.

当你拥有这些投射场时，即当你刺激时感知到的皮肤区域，你可以将其组合成各种形状。

So when you have these projected fields, so the patch of skin that is perceived when you stimulate, you can combine that in shapes.

受试者报告称能感受到具有特定方向的边缘，这与我们进行的组合方式相符。

And the subject was reporting to feel an edge with the specific orientation accordingly to the combination that we were doing.

这相当引人注目，因为有时我们进行一些奇怪的组合，而受试者确实在这里描绘出这种感知，正如通过投射场组合所预测的那样。

And it was pretty remarkable because sometimes we did like some weird combination, and the subject was actually drawing this perception here as the one predicted by the combination of the projected field.

因此第一个结果实际上是关于方向的，而且我们在两名受试者身上进行了这项实验。

So the first result was actually about the orientation, and and we did this in two subjects.

这确实非常、非常令人惊讶。

So the what was pretty, pretty, like, surprising.

这是研究的第一个突破点，因为当我们观察到可以组合这些投射场并形成形状时，我们就有了继续研究的所有思路。

And that was the first kick of the study because when we observed that it was possible to actually combine these projected fields and have a shape, we had all the ideas to proceed with the study.

这非常了不起。

That is remarkable.

另外，回到你之前提到的，至少Bosmaier教授最初预期通过刺激体感皮层来唤起任何感觉会很困难。

Also, going back to what you said that there was a different expectation at the beginning, at least by Professor Bosmaier, that it will be difficult to evoke any sensations, yes, by stimulating somatosensory cortex.

而且你当时认为这可能不如外周神经系统刺激那样自然。

And also you were thinking that it might be not as natural as with the peripheral nervous system stimulation.

为什么结果实际上恰恰相反？

Why did it turn out actually even in opposite?

是的，它引发了更自然的感受，而且你知道，这并不成问题。

Yes, it was evoking more naturalistic sensations and, you know, it wasn't problematic.

从现在回顾的角度来看，你如何解释这一点？

Looking now from current perspective back, how do you explain this?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

仍在讨论中。

Still under debate.

所以我们仍在尝试解释这个现象。

So we are still trying to explain that.

但我们有一个想法是：如果你想象外周刺激时，你是在非常早期的阶段进行刺激，可以想象你的人工刺激引入了相当多的噪声信号。

But one idea that we had was the fact that so if you imagine that when you stimulate peripherally, you stimulate at the exactly very early stage, and you can imagine that you are inserting with your artificial stimulation pretty noisy signal.

对吧？

Right?

因为这不同于机械感受器的输出，更像是人工激活。

Because it's not as the the mechanoreceptor output, but it's more like an artificial activation.

类似地，你知道有个游戏：你在前面的人背上写字，然后对方要在前面画出来。

And similarly to do you know with this there is like a a game where you write a letter or something on the back of the person in front of you, and then the other one is to draw in in the front.

最后信息往往变得一团糟。

And at the end, the message is a kind of mess.

我们认为类似地，我们在外围植入了噪声信号，然后在不同阶段会有不同的突触。

We think is similarly that you we insert some noisy signal at the periphery, and then you have different synapse at different stages.

但这种噪声会被不断放大、放大、再放大，最终形成非常明显且失真的信号。

But this noise is kind of amplifying, amplified, amplified, and at the end, arrive very apparent and parastatic.

因此这变得无法解读。

And so this is not interpretable.

而如果直接激活目标神经元，就能诱发更接近真实的有意义感觉。

While if you go directly there and you activate the neurons and the correct neurons already, you can evoke maybe a more like, a meaningful sensation.

这是其中一个假设，但我们并不确切知道为何存在这种差异。

This is one of the, you know, the the hypothesis, but we don't know exactly why there is this difference.

实际上凯斯西储大学的Emily Gratzik刚在元档案库发布了一项研究，对同一受试者同时进行了外周和皮层刺激。

There's actually one study just put on the meta archive by the case case Western Emily Gratzik had one participant both in a single individual, both the peripheral and the cortical.

也就是在同一名受试者身上进行的。

So in the on the same subject.

而且该受试者能够比较两种刺激方式，表示皮层刺激比外周更自然。

And, also, his subject that who can actually compare the two said that the cortical stimulation is more natural than the peripheral.

我想她对此也有一些理论。

I think she she also has some some theories on that.

但在这里我们刺激的区域也在编码。

But then also here for the so the area that we are stimulating is also encoding.

已经有专门的神经元对特定特征做出反应。

There are specialized neurons already responding for specific features.

所以这不是信息到达皮层的第一个区域。

So this is not the first area of of the cortex where the message arrives.

所以3D区域位于中央沟内，因此难以触及。

So there is area three d that is in the sulcus, in the central sulcus, so it is difficult to reach.

那甚至处于更早期的阶段。

That is even more at the early stage.

所以它可能更类似于V1区，但无法触及。

So it's probably more similar to V one, but it's not accessible.

因此我们选择了位于表面的宽带1区，可以通过我们的手术植入物接触到。

So we go on area on area one, broadband area one that is on the surface, so it's accessible with with our surgical implant.

刺激这个区域时，我们会产生不同种类的感觉。

And stimulating that, we have sensation of different kind.

但其中有些对大脑来说也是寄生性的。

But some of that are also parasitic also for the brain.

我不想说所有感觉都是自然的。

And I don't wanna say that everything is natural.

只是说可能存在更多自然通道。

But it's just that there are maybe more channel naturally.

虽然它被描述为更自然，但这仍是我们正在研究的课题。

There's also is described as more natural, but it's still something that we are investigating.

但有趣的是，关于个体投射场的类型特征，当你组合这些特征时，它们会被感知为某个方向的线条。

But in this case, what's what's interesting that regarding the type of the individual characteristic of the individual projected field, when you combine that, those are, like, perceived as a line in some direction.

这确实非常显著。

So that was remarkable.

这绝对是非凡的发现。

It is absolutely remarkable.

患者们报告了什么情况？

And what did the patients report?

他们体验这些感觉时的具体经历是怎样的？

What were their experience having all those sensations?

他们对能够感知到某些事物感到非常兴奋。

They were pretty excited about the the fact to perceive something.

你明白吗？

You know?

一般来说，你必须想象他们体验到的触觉通常没有任何背景信息。

In general, you have to imagine that they experience when we provide touch is normally without any context.

不。

No.

他们就在那里。

They are there.

我们进行刺激，然后他们必须描述自己的感受。

We stimulate, and they they have to describe what they feel.

这实际上相当困难，就像你在黑暗中，我把某物放在你手上，而你只能被动接受——因为他们无法主动探索。

It is actually pretty difficult because it's a kind of similar if you are in the dark and I place something on your hand and just passively because they cannot explore.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们进行几秒钟的刺激感知，然后他们需要说出那是什么。

So we stimulate and perceive something for a few seconds, and then they need to tell what was that.

因此对他们来说，每次要描述这种感觉都不太容易。

So every time for them, it's not super easy to describe the sensation.

当然，你不想给他们带来偏见。

And then, of course, you you don't wanna bias them.

所以你可以询问，然后他们可以自由地按照自己的想法描述。

So you can you ask, and then they are open to describe as they want.

但当感觉变得更像这样，更多通道化，带有更多特征时，他们能更清晰地描述出来。

But then when the sensation becomes more like this, more multichannel, more with some feature on that, they were able to describe this more clearly.

我认为他们对此很兴奋，因为不再只是单点感知，而是能感受到某些特征或结构。

And I think they were excited about that because instead of one point where they have to say something here, there is some feature or some something in that.

我觉得这非常酷。

And I think it was pretty cool there.

我有一些相关视频，也包括运动感知的。

I have a v some videos on that, but also for motion.

因为下一步——现在回想起来很简单，但当时是首次发现——我们想：

Because the next step was, again, in my opinion now posteriori pretty trivial, but at the time was not because it was the first time that we saw we thought, okay.

如果我们把这些投射场结合起来，就能唤起线条感，被试者可以判断是水平线、垂直线还是无线条之类的。

If we did like, we combine this projected field together and you can evoke, like, a kind of line or an orient the the subject can tell if it's a horizontal or vertical line or there is no line or something like that.

让我们看看如果快速连续激活会发生什么。

Let's see if we activate one after the other very quickly.

发生了什么？

What happened?

也许受试者会如何感知这种现象。

If something maybe how the the subject will perceive that.

这里又出现了同样的问题：通道切换的速度应该多快。

And again, here, but how quick, how we how fast we we should change channel one from the other.

再次强调，我参考了视觉神经科学的研究。

And again here, look I look to the neuroscience in vision.

其实视觉领域有个实验，大概是六十年代甚至更早的。

So there is actually an experiment in vision pretty, like, I think in the sixties of even before.

我们描述了闪光灯的现象。

We describe the fact of flashing lights.

比如有两个交替闪烁的灯，你会感觉看到了两盏灯。

So if you have, like, two flashing lights and you have they are alternating, you feel you see, like, two lights.

但当两个信号之间的时间间隔变得非常短时，你会开始感知到物体在朝另一个方向移动。

But then if the temporal gap between one and the other is becoming very fast, you start to perceive that this one moving on the other direction.

同样地，如果间隔太短，你就会开始同时感知到两个信号。

And then again, if the you know, if it's too short, then you start to perceive too simultaneously.

所以我们做的第一个测试就是用不同时间间隔激活两个投射区域。

So the first test that we did is to activate two projected fields with different temporal gaps.

在短时间间隔下，受试者表示能同时感受到两次触碰。

And in with short temporal gaps, the subjects were saying, I feel two touches simultaneously.

当间隔缩短到约一秒或五百毫秒时，受试者会开始感知到一个向上移动的物体。

Then if you start to have a gap under, like, one second, five hundred millisecond, the subject will start to perceive one thing moving up.

而如果间隔过长，就会变成两次交替的敲击感，不再有连续运动的感觉。

And then if the gap is too much, two taps, like alternating, not anymore a continuous motion.

于是我们意识到，只要在通道间设置正确的时间间隔，就能在皮肤上编码连续运动。

So we realize that we can encode continuous motion on the skin with the if you have the correct temporal gap between one channel and the other.

所以我们重复了之前的实验，但这次不是给出线条，而是用不同间隔来激活这些通道。

So we repeated the task before, but instead of giving lines, we activate these channels with actually different gap.

受试者能够分辨出，我感觉有什么东西在我的皮肤上朝这个方向移动，或者另一个方向。

And the subject was able to tell, I feel something moving on my skin in this direction, in this other direction.

所以我既能判断是否有运动，也能判断运动的方向。

So I was able to tell both if there was motion or not and also in which direction.

这确实非常酷，因为这种现象在视觉领域的磷光现象和视皮层假体中也得到了验证。

That was really, pretty cool because also was was something that also was demonstrated with phosphine and visocortical prosthetics for vision.

这种平行性让我着迷——在两个完全不同的领域，使用相同的范式，我们竟然能用相似的编码策略实现类似的效果。

So that that parallelism, I was really fascinated by the fact that in both devices, actually, in two two different field with the same paradigm, we're able to encode a similar thing, but in two different domains with the same encoding strategies.

这就是为什么最近我们加强了交流，之前这两个领域都是独立工作，但现在我们正尝试更多沟通，看看视皮层假体和体感皮层假体之间能如何相互借鉴。

This is the reason why recently we have talked more because the fields before were working, like, separately, but now we are trying to communicate more and see what is working in visocortical prosthetics and somatosensory cortical prosthetics and talk more because of that.

嗯。

Yeah.

以及这两个领域如何互相促进。

And how those two fields can help each other.

是的。

Yes.

一个领域的实验会推动另一个领域的进步，反之亦然。

Experiments in one would advance another and vice versa.

是的。

Yes.

以及那些关于感官知觉的主要普遍原则。

And to those main principles of in general, sensory perceptions.

是的。

Yes.

相同的原理似乎在不同模态中都适用。

They seem to work in different modalities, the same principles.

没错。

Yeah.

这太美妙了。

That's beautiful.

那么你能总结下这项研究的目标以及最终实际取得的成果吗？

So if you would summarize the goals of the study and then the results that you actually got at the end?

是的。

Yes.

这项研究旨在扩展体感脑机接口的人工触觉库，尝试借鉴人类灵长类动物研究的成果，利用我们已知的大脑如何编码运动、边缘及更复杂感觉特征的知识，同时从视觉皮层假体获取灵感，尝试编码更复杂的内容。

So the study was aiming to expand the repertoire of artificial touch for somatosensory BCI and trying to leverage the knowledge from the human primate research and what we know about how the brain is encoding motion and edges and more complex sensory features, and also taking inspiration for visocortical prosthetics, trying to encode something more complex.

我们取得的成果是，通过皮层内微刺激实现多通道同时刺激多个通道的刺激，能够编码边缘和定向触觉刺激的感觉，被试者能够识别这些触觉刺激。

So what we achieve is that simultaneous stimulation of multiple channels in the with the intercortical microstimulation was able to encode sensation of edges and oriented stimuli, tactile stimuli, that the subject was able to recognize.

这些通道的连续激活则能够编码运动信息。

And the sequential activation of these channels were able to encode motion.

最后，我们实际上还进行了两项更复杂的实验。

And then finally, we actually did two more complex experiment.

其中一项是尝试用这两种机制编码更复杂的形状。

One was to try to encode more complex shapes with the two mechanism.

一个是同时激活。

One was simultaneous activation.

所以我们定义了一些形状。

So we define some shapes.

在这个案例中，我们选择了字母，但也可以是任何你拥有的不同形状。

In this case, we choose letters, but can be any different shape that you that you have.

通过同步刺激进行编码，更像是按压皮肤时的感觉，或者用序列刺激来描摹形状。

Encoded that with simultaneous stimulation, more like if you press this on the skin, imagine, or to trace that with the sequential stimulation.

比如你有一个字母然后进行描摹。

So if you have a letter and you trace.

我们的假设是触觉具有一种称为图形觉的特性，因此你可以通过触觉来阅读。

And our hypothesis was you have a property of your sense of touch called graphesthesia, so you can read with your sense of touch.

如果我在你皮肤上描摹字母，你能读出我写的内容，而且这种方式比在皮肤上压印相同字母效果更好。

So if I trace the letter on your skin, you are able to read what I'm writing, and you are actually much better than compare if I indent the the same letter on the skin.

事实上我们发现，如果以自然触觉方式描摹形状轮廓，受试者能更好地区分不同形状。

Indeed, we found that the subject was able to discriminate the different shapes better if you trace the shape of the context as the natural touch.

这是首次对功能性更强的方案进行比较。

So that was the first comparison of something more functional.

接着我们在闭环状态下进行了实验，使用了假体头部装置。

And then we did an experiment in close loop, so with the prosthetic head.

因为我们的想法是，既然受试者现在能感受到更复杂的触觉，那就尝试用机械手、机械臂来测试。

So because the idea was, okay, Now that the subject can feel this more complex sensation, let's try with the robotic hand, the robotic arm.

当然，我们在传感器方面存在一些局限，因为要传递运动感觉，就必须能追踪假肢手的运动。

So the but, of course, we had some limitation in terms of sensorization because to to to give the sensation of motion, you need to be able to track motion on the prosthetic hand.

所以需要为此配备传感器。

So you need to have sensors for that.

为此我们需要电子皮肤。

So we need electronic skin for that.

我们使用了一款原本设计用于方向盘操控的脑控机械臂进行实验。

So we did an experiment with the brain control robotic arm that was actually used for steering a wheel.

在这个实验中，我们编码了方向盘左右转动的运动感觉，要求受试者根据感知到的运动感觉来相应调整动作。

So in this case, we encode a sensation of motion, apparent motion of this steering wheel in one or the other direction, And the subject was asked to correct the motion accordingly to the sensation of motion perceived.

这只是一个概念验证，证明受试者能够通过脑信号控制机械臂。

So this was just a proof of concept to show that the subject was able to control with the brain signal and the robotic arm.

同时利用这种人工触觉——这种更复杂的感知来完成功能性任务。

And at the same time, you exploit this artificial sensation, this more complex sensation to do a functional task.

因此我们证明了这是可行的。

And so we proved that that was possible.

这是最初的构想，现在我们正在研究更复杂的领域，比如纹理感知之类的。

So this was the first idea, and then now we are going through something more complex and maybe textures and something like that.

是的。

Yes.

那么既然你已经提到了一些内容，接下来你们计划做什么？

So what what are your next step now now that you started already mentioning something?

对。

Yes.

下一步计划是什么？

What's what's the next step?

下次你来我们播客时，我们会听到哪些新进展？

What what we will be hearing about next time you come to our podcast?

没错。

Yeah.

是我，我的意思是今年我不能提交，因为我实际上是评委会主席和君主。

It's a me I mean, this year, I cannot submit because I'm I'm actually the the jury chair and a monarch.

今年我们不会提交，但也许明年会。

That's this year, we'll not submit, but maybe next year.

这实际上是一个显著的结果，我们正试图在更多受试者中复现，当然因为这次只有两个受试者，我们还想在所有其他受试者中测试这个。

That is actually it was a remarkable result that we are trying to replicate with more subjects, of course, because this was in two subjects, and we want to test also this in in all the other subjects.

但思路是回归到仿生刺激，深入研究大脑如何编码这些特征，用仿生刺激来编码纹理等特征，并与传统方法进行对比，以验证仿生理论在此是否同样有效——这实际上是我们需要进一步探索的，以实现更复杂的触觉编码。

But the idea is to going back to the biomimetic stimulation again and define like something more on the biomimetic studying how the brain is encoding this feature and use biomimetic stimulation to encode maybe textures and and compare that with more classic way to understand that if really the biomimetic theory is valid also here and is a way to I mean, it is actually what we have to go and to encode more complex sense of touch.

然后皮层体感假肢还面临另一个挑战——S1与M1区域的神经通讯问题。

Then there is another challenge for the cortical somatosensory prosthetics that is actually S1M1 communication.

当我们刺激S1区时，与周边刺激不同，这里存在神经网络：刺激S1区会引发M1区大量激活。

So when we stimulate on S1, so differently compared to the periphery, since here we have a network, but actually you stimulate on s one, you have a lot of activation on m one.

这里正是我们获取控制手部动作信号的位置。

So we're actually where we take the signal for controlling the the hand.

这不仅仅是人为干扰信号。

And it's not just artifact.

并不是说我们刺激S1区就会产生这种干扰信号，从而破坏我们的运动解码器或影响我们控制手部的能力。

It's not that if we stimulate an s one, we create this artifact that then can ruin our motor decoder or can affect our ability to control the hand.

但实际上它是在改变M1区的活动，因为这些是信息。

But it's actually modifying the activity in m one because it's information.

所以如果M1区根据正在发生的触觉事件从S1区接收信息，我们就需要创建能够协同接收这些信息的运动解码器，以构建一个功能性的双向触觉脑机接口——因为这是我们想要实现这类双向假体所面临的挑战。实际上这对周边神经系统不是问题，因为我们是从肌肉记录信号。

So if m one is receiving information from s one accordingly to the touch the tactile event that are happening, so we need to create motor decoders that are able to synergistically take this information in to create a functional bidirectional BCI for for touch because that is a challenge that is is there for for us that we wanna do this type of bidirectional prosthetics, and it was actually not really a problem for the periphery because we were recording from the muscles.

即使你刺激神经，也不会在肌肉中产生大量干扰信号或激活。

And then even if you stimulate the nerve, you don't create a lot of artifact or a lot of activation in the muscle.

不会。

No.

你实际上可以解码这些信号。

You can actually decode that.

但对于大脑来说，由于所有信号都在那里，S1区会引发大量我们需要考虑的调制作用。

But for the brain, since everything is there, you have a lot of modulation induced by s one that we need to take into account.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Yeah.

我会密切关注后续进展。

I will be looking forward towards the updates.

你认为该项目的主要创新点是什么？

And what do you say were the main innovations by the project?

就是那个。

That one.

那个词。

That word.

是的。

Yes.

毫无疑问，主要创新在于人工触觉实现的精细度和丰富度——这类特征从未在任何类型的神经假体（无论是外周、脊髓还是皮层）中被编码过，此前根本无法实现这种效果。

For sure, the main innovation is about the level, the richness achieved in terms of artificial touch because these type of features have not been encoded in any type of neuroprosthetics in general, considering peripheral, spinal, and cortical before was not possible to achieve something like that.

或许我有兴趣回到外周神经领域，看看能否在运动控制方面为外周神经刺激做些改进，但这之前是不可能实现的吧？

And maybe I'm interested to go back in the periphery and see if I can I can do something with engine motion for for the peripheral stimulation, but this was not possible?

而且我确实很喜欢我们提到的与视觉皮层假体的这种比较，因为我认为这项研究能真正建立两个领域之间的联系。

And I think also I really like this comparison with visocortical prosthetics that we mentioned because it's I think is is this is a study that can really put the connection between the two fields.

他们尝试了许多事情，有成功也有失败，反之亦然。

And there are many things that they try and they fail or they succeed and vice versa.

去那里仔细研究他们实现的一些成果是否也适用于这里会非常有用，因为这是一个明显的例子，表明我们可以将一个领域的成果转化到另一个领域。

It will be very useful to go there, look carefully if some of the things that they manage to achieve is valid also here, because this was a clear example where actually we can translate some result in another field.

也许我们可以用其他我们容易实现或投入更多时间实现的东西做同样的事，看看是否也适用于中脑皮层假体。

We can do maybe the the same thing with the other other things that we we achieve easily or we achieve because we invest more time in that, And we can see if is can can work also for mesocortical prosthetics.

是的。

Yes.

说到这个，你提到视觉假体实际上是最早人们真正想要创造的之一。

And speaking about that, you mentioned that visual prosthetics was actually, it was one of the first that people really wanted to create.

是的。

Yes.

但由于其复杂性，最终被放弃了。

But then because of the complexity of it, yes, it was abandoned.

人们转而研究人工耳蜗植入，这是一个非常成功的项目。

People switched to cochlear implants, which was a very successful project.

但现在看来，视觉神经假体技术正在再次兴起。

But now it looks like the visual neuroprosthetics is on the rise again.

那么说到这里，神经假体领域目前的现状如何？

So with that said, what is the current picture in the neuroprosthetics world?

现在又流行什么研究方向？

What is again being popular?

主要的研究和工作领域有哪些？

What are the main areas of research of work?

主要趋势是什么？

What are the major trends?

在这个领域，我们在不久的将来可以期待什么？

And what can we expect in the near future in this field?

现在从更宏观的角度来看。

Just taking more global perspective now.

好的。

Sure.

没问题。

Sure.

不。

No.

正是如此。

Exactly.

首先，得益于大量投资，这个领域正在以惊人的速度发展。

So first of all, it's it's feel it is a field that is growing incredibly thanks to the investments.

而且我认为公众兴趣也推动了这一趋势。

And also, I think also the the the public interest also push on that.

就个人而言，这很酷。

And personally, it's cool.

所以我感觉越来越多学生对这个领域的工作充满热情。

So I think more and more, I feel students that are super excited to work in this in this field.

总的来说，这对这类神经修复领域是个好现象。

So this is in general a good point for this type of neuroprosthetic field.

随着新型电极和接口的出现，我认为这确实可能改变我们现有的可能性——因为直到几年前，特别是对于刺激技术，也包括记录技术，获得FDA批准的电极非常少，CE认证的更少，但FDA批准用于这类研究或临床干预的更是寥寥无几。

With the coming of new electrodes and interface, I feel that this can be really something that can change a bit the possibilities that we have because up to now, a few years ago, in particular for stimulation, but also for recording, very few were the electors FDA approved and CE Mark even less, but FDA approved for this type of research or this type of clinical intervention.

现在有更多公司正在开发新型脑机接口技术，这将为人类研究和临床试验开辟更多可能性。

So now there are more companies developing novel type of interfacing with the brain that can open up the possibility to do more in human research and in human trials.

正如你提到的，视觉皮层处理可能在多年前就开始了，但考虑到当时可用的脑接口技术还不足以实现这一目标。

And exactly as you mentioned, the visocortical proceeding maybe before, years before, considering also the technology available to interface the brain was not enough to achieve that.

但借助高分辨率、多通道的技术，比如Neuralink提出的可以深入大脑的方案，或是能够靶向不同区域的接口技术。

But with a technology with high resolution, high channels count, higher channel counts, maybe go deeper as the Neuralink is proposing or or something that can target the different areas.

因此我觉得现在有更多工具可用，这将扩大应用范围。

So I feel that more tools are available, so this can expand the the the usage.

毫无疑问，运动皮层接口（PCI）历史上最初是作为光标控制开始的，现在他们称之为赋予用户'数字自主权'——能够控制电脑、智能手机等。我认为这很快就能帮助患者，正如Neuralink、Synchron等公司提出的主要目标之一，实际上我指的是对患者的临床益处，以及可用的研究工具和设备。

For sure, the motor PCI historically is the one that started as a control of a cursor to give what they call now digital independence to the user so be able to control your computer, your smartphone, etcetera, I think is is something that can soon help patients at at what Neuralink, Synchron, and other are proposing as one of the main points, no, for the I mean, I'm I'm saying for, actually, the clinical benefit for for the patient, you for research tool and and devices that are available.

特别是对于假肢技术，正如你所知，NCI奖项也多次提到，我们现在每秒传输位数和单词数都在增长，这使得我们能够以接近自然语速的方式进行非常自然的交流。

And especially for prosthesis, I think, as you know, and also the NCI award note is mentioning this multiple times in the sense that there is growing in terms of bit per second and and words per second that we can to have a very natural way to communicate with the natural pace and that we have now.

在内部言语研究中，他们展示了言语神经假体的非常有趣的应用。

In inner speech, they show so but they are very interesting applications of of speech neuroprosthetics.

体感功能当然是运动功能实现物理世界操作的必要下一步，比如控制机械臂和手进行物理交互。

The somatosensory is, of course, the, I think, the next step necessary for the motor to be really to move on something physical in the physical world and control robotic arms and hand and interact with that.

我认为认知神经假体领域也非常值得关注，因为它涉及与大脑其他区域的接口尝试建立通讯。

And I think would be the field of of, you know, more cognitive neuroprosthetics, I feel is also very interesting and to look because it's interfacing with other area of the brain and trying to to communicate.

归根结底，如果我们总结应用场景，就是能够解码大脑信息并用于特定目的——无论是视觉、触觉信息的编码传递，还是如何准确向大脑输入信息。

Because at the end, I think if we summarize the application or in the you know, able to decode information from the brain and use that for something or to communicate and encode information that can be for vision, that can be for touch, but how to communicate that information right into the brain information.

因此我认为相关算法正在不断涌现。

So I think there are more and more algorithms.

有些人采用更偏向黑箱的AI方法来实现信息输出。

There are people following more AI based approach, more like a black box that able to provide information.

但我个人更倾向于先理解大脑工作机制，在此基础上再应用AI方法。

And but I feel I'm I'm more from trying to understand the mechanisms of how the brain is is working and trying to apply that and maybe then AI based mechanism after that.

不过AI方法的进步确实与这个领域的发展密切相关。

But also the the increase and the the growth of AI methods are is connected with that.

如果我们考虑用于语音的大型语言模型，或者其他应用。

If we think a language large language model for speech, for example, or or others.

所以我认为还有很多很多其他的机会。

So I think there are many, many other opportunities.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我能看到这个领域正在迅猛发展。

I can see that the field is exploding.

我们已经有好几个团队在研究神经假体了。

We have several teams already coming up with neuroprosthetics.

是的。

Yes.

不。

No.

这简直太神奇了。

It is absolutely amazing.

说到这个，我听了一位我认为非常出色的教授关于人类感官感知的讲座。

And speaking about that, I listened to a lecture of one of, I think, wonderful professors on the topic of, in general, human sensory perception.

他提到理论上存在实现《黑客帝国》那种矩阵体验的可能性——通过刺激我们的神经系统来创造周围现实，唤起包括视觉、听觉以及躯体感觉在内的所有感知。

And the thing that he mentioned that in theory, the possibility of having this matrix like experience, like in the movie Matrix, yes, when the reality is being created around us by stimulating our nervous system and evoking all the sensations that are around us, including visual, auditory, and of course, somatosensory that theoretically it is possible.

也就是说我们可能生活在一个与现实同样真实的虚拟世界里，但从技术上讲目前还无法实现。

So we we can live in a virtual world that will be as real as ours, but technically it's still not possible.

那么包括你们工作在内的研究进展，距离实现这种完全自然感知的虚拟世界还有多远？

So how close are we getting with the development, including your work, yes, to the time or to the possibility when this completely naturalistically feeling a virtual world will become possible?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

老实说，我觉得我们还差得很远。

I feel honestly, it's we are far from that.

我也希望如此，因为我不想离开现实世界。

I I hope as well because I don't wanna leave it.

我想逃离的是现实生活，不是虚拟世界，而是这个人。

I wanna leave the real life, not the the virtual one, but this person.

不过确实。

But yeah.

我想说的是，我们的受试者已经在使用虚拟现实环境，并且能控制虚拟肢体。

So what I wanna mention is that it's true that our subjects already are already using virtual reality settings, and they control the virtual limb.

他们在操作时能感受到来自虚拟肢体的感觉。

And they can feel from the virtual limb while they are doing stuff.

我们并不总是使用实体机器人，因为它会消耗能量、产生噪音还可能损坏。

So we don't use always the physical robot because it's burning energy and is also noisy and can break.

只有在必要时我们才会使用它。

So when when when it's needed, we use it.

但如果我们需要在虚拟现实中运行某些内容，也可以轻松放置物体并进行参数设置。

But if we wanna have something that we can run-in virtual reality, we can easily also place objects and and parameterize that.

所以从技术上讲，受试者已经在虚拟现实中使用手臂，并能体验到虚拟现实中的感觉。

So so, technically, the subject is already using an arm in virtual reality, and they can experience sensation from virtual reality.

实际上非常有趣的是，为什么他们在虚拟现实中描述的感受与物理世界不同——在物理世界里他们能看到机器人握人的手并真实感受到触感。

And it's actually also very interesting why why they describe experience in virtual reality compared to the physical world where it's actually the physical world where they see the robot shake the hand of a person and they can feel that.

这与虚拟现实中的体验形成鲜明对比。

That is a very different experience compared in the in the virtual reality.

但关键在于，我们仍严重缺乏实现所需接口水平的技术，在我看来这关乎信息编码。

But the point is that we are still really lacking of of technology to interface at the at the level that is needed, in my opinion, for encoding.

我们能在视觉皮层手术中观察到这点，同样在我们的案例中——我们只能通过有限信息覆盖指尖区域来诱发触觉。

We we can see in this visocortical procedure, but also in our case where we can, yes, evoke sensation on the fingertip only because we can cover only that part and with the limited amount of information.

因此我们的触觉仍是贫乏版本，是对自然触觉的苍白再现。

So our touch is still an impoverished version is is still a pale representation of the natural touch.

这就是为什么我认为前路依然漫长。

So this is the reason why I feel that the way is still long.

以我们为例，本体感觉仍然缺失，这是相当关键的信息。

There there there's still in our case, for example, proprioception is still missing or rather important information.

所以在我看来，我们距离目标还很遥远。

So in my opinion, we are still far from that.

但我们的目标是复制并真正实现与大脑的沟通。

But we the goal is that, is right to replicate and really commune and and find a way to communicate with the brain.

这在我看来将成为治疗疾病的关键转折点，并总体上将我们与外部设备连接起来。

That is my belief is would be the game changer in terms of treating diseases and in general to to connect us with the external devices.

谢谢。

Thank you.

还有一个问题与最近我们可获得的信息有关。

And another question is related to what became available to us recently.

在此之前，普遍认为当肢体被截肢时，大脑会发生重组

Until this time, I think a general opinion was that when the limp gets amputated, there is reorganization that is happening in the brain and that there is a takeover of the adjacent areas of the brain area that was responsible for that limp.

有一项纵向研究表明可能并非如此。

And there is a longitudinal study that is showing that that might not be really the case.

我认为这项研究最近获得了广泛关注

So I think this research got a lot of attention recently.

我想听听您对此的看法

So I would like you to comment on that.

那么这些最新发现是什么？它们意味着什么？

So what are these recent findings and what do they mean?

对于神经假体领域和脑机接口领域整体而言呢？

And for the field of neuroprosthetics and for the field of BCIs in general?

是的。

Yeah.

不，不，这是个非常好的观点，因为实际上，我觉得这项研究的第一作者是安德森，今年——确切说是上个月发表在《自然神经科学》上的，与剑桥大学的塔玛·麦金合作的。

No, no, that's a very good point because actually it was, so I feel that so Andersson is the first first author of the study published this this year, like this month, actually, last week in Nature Neuroscience with with the Tamar Mackin University of Cambridge.

事实上，我认为这项研究对神经假体领域非常重要，原因有很多。

And actually, it's for the field of neuroprosthetic, I think is a very important study for many reasons.

首先，因为至少在我们的领域里，这是我们一直有所设想但从未真正在这个层面和严谨度上得到验证的事情。

First of all, because it's something that in the field, at least in our field, was already, you know, something that we had in mind and but never really demonstrated at this at this level and with this rigor.

因为我们参与了针对外周神经系统（截肢者的腿、手臂）和中枢神经系统（脊髓、大脑）的临床试验，在不同部位植入设备以恢复感觉功能，受试者包括刚截肢几个月到二三十年前的患者，以及脊髓损伤一年到三四十年不等的病例。

Because if we implanted and I participate in clinical trial both for the periphery, so amputees, leg, arms, and spinal cord in the brain, and we've got the implant in different part of the nervous system to restore sensation, people amputated maybe the few months before up to twenty years, thirty years before, and also spinal cord injury the year before or thirty years, forty years before.

但在所有这些案例中，当我们刺激大脑或神经的特定部位时，受试者总能立即在预期位置（如手、脚）产生感知，从未出现类似面部或嘴唇等部位的错位感知。

But in all these cases, when we stimulated this part of the brain or the nerves, the subject immediately perceived sensation where was supposed to perceive, like hand, foot, never like face, lips, or something.

所以这已经算是一种证明或间接证据，表明实际上没有发生区域入侵的情况。

So that was already like a kind of proof or indirect proof of the fact that, you know, there was there was not really invasion of area.

也就是说这些脑区仍然存在并准备好接收信息。

Like, the The area was still there ready to receive information.

因此这个假设认为，同时朱利曼也是这一理论的推动者，基于神经修复技术的最新研究显示，在关键期后——即年轻时具有更高可塑性的阶段之后，身体映射和感觉质量需要保持稳定可靠。

And so the hypothesis was that and also Zuliman was also a promoter of this theory, thanks to the evidence that he also, like, saw in the in the field of neuroprosthetics where actually after the critical period, so this period where you are young, where there is like more plasticity, then after the critical period, in particular, your body maps and the sensory mass needs to be stable and reliable.

因为你不想出现这些变化，比如我现在坐在这里的情况。

Because you don't wanna have these changes that that I'm seated here.

想象一下，如果我长时间保持肘部不动，大脑对肘部的表征可能会变得比手部更大。

Imagine that if I stay hours here with my elbow, then the brain representation of the elbow becomes larger than the hand.

所以你肯定不希望发生这种情况。

So you don't want that.

你希望有一个稳定的映射，每次与禁运交互时都能可靠地参考。

You want to have the stable map that you refer to every time that you interact with embargo that is very stable.

当然，已有研究表明这类重组确实存在。

And but of course, there were like studies showing this type of reorganization.

所以这有点棘手，特别是如果你不是专门研究这个领域的科学家。

So it's a kind of tricky, no, to find I mean, in particular, if you're not a scientist that is studying exactly exactly that.

但最近，Tamar Makin和John Krakauer在Eli上发表了一篇很好的论文，反对皮质重组理论，他们指出那些显示此类重组的研究只是对数据的误解，或者可能是这样的：例如，大脑某个区域原本主要接收来自一个区域的输入，同时也接收其他区域的次要输入。当因截肢或损伤切断主要输入后，这个区域现在会被那些次要输入激活。

But recently, there was also a very nice paper published by Tamar Makin and John Krakauer on Eli's describing this theory against cortical reorganization, where they described that the studies in that showing this type of organization was just a misinterpretation of the data, or could be in the sense that one example was the fact that if you have an area of the brain that is receiving major inputs from one area and then also other inputs from the other areas, When you cut this input because of the amputation or because of the lesion, and you look at this area, this area now is activated by these small other inputs.

于是你误以为这个区域现在变成了面部区域，但它原本就与面部有连接。

And so you misinterpret that this area is now a face area, but was already connected with the face.

只是现在输入信号仅来自面部而已。

It's just that now the inputs are arriving only from the face.

所以它似乎在面部活动期间被激活，但之前并非如此。

So it seems activated during the face, but before was not the case.

因此存在一种功能上调现象，这种功能在截肢前就已存在，这是一种解释。

So there is like upregulation of function that was already present before amputation that this was a kind of interpretation.

但他们在这次综述或观点文章中解释得非常清楚。

But they explained very well in this review or in this, like, opinion.

通过他们现在发表的这项研究，他们获得了最终证据：在截肢前对受试者进行测量，用fMRI详细绘制了大脑图谱。

And with this study that they published now, they have the final proof where they have people before amputation, where they measure the map in a very detailed way of the brain with fMRI.

然后在截肢后，不同的时间点，从几个月到几年，他们显示这张图谱保持稳定。

And then after amputation, a different time point, months up to years, and they show that this map remains stable.

这对神经假肢尤其重要，因为这意味着我们可以不受时间限制地招募和植入患者。

So this is an important in particular for neuroprosthetics because that means that we can recruit and implant people regardless the time.

不是吗？

No?

因为即使你在23年前截肢，也可以像这样拥有假肢。

Because even if you're amputated in twenty three years, you can have a prosthetic like that.

你可以植入假体。

You can have an implant.

不存在与重组相关的问题。

There is no problem related to the reorganization.

这就是神经假肢的情况。

So this is for the neuroprosthetics.

对于疼痛而言，这也涉及治疗理论，因为当理论认为疾病适应不良的可塑性时，这种入侵可能会影响你的感知，并与幻肢痛相关，而现在或许更倾向于外周输入等理论可能更为合理。

And for pain, it's also about the theories of the treatment because where theory is saying disease maladaptive plasticity, this invasion can be something that is affecting how you perceive and and related to phantom pain where maybe the theory is more of the with the peripheral inputs or something like that are now more probably more reasonable or something like that.

因此，我认为这项研究很重要，因为它触及了多个要点，同时也在重新审视之前的文献。

So this is where I mean, this study is important because it's touching, I think, on different points and also revising the literature from before.

是的。

Yes.

但那些绝对是令人惊叹的新进展和演示，确实支持了神经假肢的发展。

But those, I think, absolutely amazing, amazing new developments and demonstrations, yeah, that support the development of neuroprosthetics.

基于你提到的所有这些发展，目前该领域正在发生什么？你认为对于想要加入这一领域的人来说，有哪些新机遇正在开启？

Based on all these developments that you mentioned, what's going on right now in the field, what do you think opportunities that are opening up for people who want to join the field?

他们可以在哪些领域找到自己的位置？

Where they can find themselves?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

首先，从小的方面来说，我们实验室正在不断发展壮大。

So first of all, in the in the small way, we as a lab, we are growing.

我们正在招收学生，包括博士生和硕士生等。

We we are recruiting students, PhD and and master students, etcetera.

由于这是一个多学科领域，我们会从不同角度培养学生来解决这个问题——有的侧重算法，有的侧重硬件，有的侧重临床部分，还有的实施落地。

And and since it's a multidisciplinary field, we take students and to to approach this problem on the different point of view from the more on the algorithm, more on the hardware, more on the clinical part and then implementation.

我感觉现在有越来越多的公司，在欧洲和美国都能获得神经假体领域的宝贵经验，这些公司也在不断发展壮大，需要越来越多的人才。

I feel that now there are more more companies also where actually the the you can have an experience both in Europe and in US in the field of neuroprosthetics that can be valuable, and they they are growing as well with searching more and more people.

而且我认为，在方法上也存在着这种多元化的环境。

And I feel that also this there is this diverse different I mean, there is this diverse environment in terms of approaches.

有些研究采用皮层内或皮层上的不同方式实现相同目标，或者针对不同方面开发神经假体和脑机接口。

There are some that go intracortical, epicortical for the same goal, or you have neuroprosthetic and BCI for different aspects.

所以不仅限于过去那种控制屏幕光标的脑机接口领域（至少是侵入式的，因为非侵入式应用更广泛）。

So not only for, as was before, for control the cursor of the screen that that was the the BCI field, at least invasive, because noninvasive much more.

但对于非侵入式技术，现在有更多不同的技术和研究团队在探索不同方面和不同类型的疾病。

But for non now invasive, there are many more, like, techniques and also groups studying the different aspects and different type of diseases.

因此我觉得学术界和工业界都有更多机会。

So I feel that there there are more opportunities both in academia and industry.

而在健身行业，这正是人们当前争相涌入的领域。

And in the strength industry, something that people are really trying to get in right now.

它变得非常热门。

It becomes very popular.

那么你有什么建议？

And what would be your advice?

是的。

Yes.

对于想要进入这个领域的人。

For people who want to enter the field.

我相信人们正带着各种问题联系你。

I'm sure people are contacting you with all kinds of questions.

我刚接待了一位来咨询的人，我们还聊到你收到多少消息，因为他给你发了信息，谈话就这么开始了。

I just had one person who came for a consultation And we even had a little chat about how many messages do you receive because he sent a message to you and that's how the conversation started.

他还没收到回复，因为这是最近才发的。

He didn't receive the reply yet because it was just recently.

但我告诉他，别担心。

But I told him, Don't worry.

我敢肯定Jack O'Moo每天至少收到10条这样的消息。

I'm sure Jack O'Moo gets at least 10 messages like this per day.

他说，不，不是10条。

He says, No, not 10.

我确信他每天会收到数百条消息。

I'm sure he receives hundreds of messages a day.

不是在抱怨。

Not complaining.

数量确实很多。

A lot of them.

好吧。

Fine.

不过你至少收到了很多问题。

So but you are receiving at least many questions.

是的。

Yes.

那么你最常听到的问题是什么？

So what is the most common questions that you hear?

也许你可以在这里直接回答，这样他们就不需要为此联系你了。

Maybe you can answer it right here so that they wouldn't need to contact you about it.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

总的来说，就像我说的，学生们对这个领域如此感兴趣真是太好了。

So in general, as I said, it's it's very nice that the students are really attracted by this this field.

他们还需要考虑到，有许多背景知识需要学习，而且涉及非常不同的方面，每个部分都是相互关联的基础。

They also have to consider that there is a lot of background that you need to learn, and there are very different aspects and you can every part is fundamental together.

当然，每个人都想来这里，与病人一起工作并处理所有事务。

Of course, everyone want to come here, work with the patient and do the everything.

但这当然需要循序渐进，有人负责这部分，其他人负责那部分，然后再整合起来。

But of course, it's like piece by piece and someone has to take care about one part, some other on the other part, and then put together.

所以在这个过程中，当然会有些小步骤，我认为这对学生来说可能难以理解，这些是通向目标的微小步伐。

So there, of course, there are maybe small steps, and this is something difficult, I think, for the students to try to understand that that is a small step that towards something.

你不可能立即就达到目标。

You You cannot jump there immediately.

但我认为重要的是要表现出你对该领域真诚的兴趣。

But but I feel that that is is important to show the your your interest your genuine interest in the in the field.

当然，也要乐于尝试对你具有挑战性的事情，或超出舒适区的内容，这也是学习新事物的机会，不能只局限于你研究的领域。

And and, of course, be open to to try also something that can be challenging for you or maybe out of your comfort zone, but you is also an opportunity to learn something new and, of course, cannot be only the thing that you study.

但由于这是非常跨学科的领域，举个例子，如果你是计算机科学家，来这里编写算法，但对大脑一无所知，也是可以做到的。

But since this is a very multidisciplinary, if you are from a maybe make an example, like a computer scientist and you come here to write algorithms, but you don't know anything about the brain, can do it.

但作为学生，既然我们在这里从事与神经科学、医学、工程学相关的工作，你需要对所有领域都有个概览，甚至要学习那些可能不完全符合你兴趣的内容。

But, of course, as a student, it's something that since here we do stuff related that also for the neurodesys touching neuroscience, medicine, engineering, you need to have an overview of of everything and also study this type of stuff that maybe is not as complete of your interest.

特别是作为学生，你需要灵活学习，像海绵一样尽可能吸收知识，然后再专注于某个特定领域。

But in particular as a student, you need to be flexible to learn and to be a sponge, you know, and and try to learn as much as possible to then specialize on one specific thing.

这是我的建议。

This is my suggestion.

非常感谢你，贾科莫。

Thank you so much, Giacomo.

再次强调，总是很愉快。

Again, it's always a pleasure.

我刚才在说，今年提交BCI奖项申请对你来说与去年有多么不同。

I was telling how different it was for you to submit the BCI award application this year compared with the last year.

那么你学到了什么？也许可以和我们的听众分享一下这次提交经历带给你的收获？

So what did you learn that maybe you can share with our listeners about the submission that came with the experience for you?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得申请本身非常相似，从某种意义上说，它相当直接明了。

So I feel that the application per se was very similar in the sense that, you know, it's pretty straightforward.

而且，你知道，目标就是要解释清楚这个项目。

And, you know, the the goal is to explain the project.

当然，评审委员会和专家评委们都是专业人士。

Of course, the the the the committee and the jury is and the jury of experts.

所以作为研究人员会稍微容易些，因为你可以详细撰写项目概述，而且实际上你是根据细节被评估的。

So it's a bit easier as a as a researcher to because you can write actually a project summary in detail and because actually you are evaluated and on the detail.

对吧？

No?

因为他们是专家，他们了解这个领域——重点不在于产品，而在于该领域内想法的创新性，以及为什么它值得在世界上占有一席之地。

Because they are experts, so they know the field is not about the product, but the novelty about the idea in this field, the why is is deserved in the world.

你明白吗？

You know?

所以你需要传达出这个想法相较于现有技术水平的创新之处。

So you need to convey the message about the novelty compared in particular to the state of art.

因此我觉得这是我们有所改进的地方。

So this is something that I feel we improved.

另外，我现在会多花些时间制作实验相关的解说视频，因为现在可以提交短视频了。

And also, I I spend a little bit more time on the making the videos, explanatory videos about the experiment now because there is this possibility to have a short film on that.

所以我们更专业地录制了一些实验视频，更注重解说性，展示我们的工作内容。

So we recorded a little bit more video about experiment more professionally and also in a more, like, explanatory and then of the the things that we were doing.

我认为这也能体现创新性，当你实际展示时，大家能更直观地看到它确实更简便。

And I think that is also sign of something that is novel and that if you can show that actually and they can you can see that is is actually easier.

这其实挺好的，要知道这并不是我第一次提交方案了。

So it's a kind of nice that, you know, I started this is not the first that was not the first time of the submission exactly.

从获得提名开始，然后是第三名，再到第一名。

Started with being the nominee and then, like, the third place and then first place.

可以说是在稳步上升。

So it was actually rising.

这个过程真的很不错。

So it was it was nice.

这真的非常棒。

It was it was very nice.

所以我会再次考虑，当然，就像我之前说的，现在我成了评委之一。

And so I will consider again, of course, as I as I said before, now I'm in the jury.

我和Christophe还找到了其他优秀的评委成员。

And with Christophe, we found also other great members.

我真的很为今年的评委团感到骄傲，成员多元且来自世界各地，拥有不同的专业背景。

So I'm really proud of the the jury this year, diverse and coming from all over the world from different expertise.

我非常期待看到今年的参赛作品。

And I'm really curious to see the application of this year.

是啊。

And yeah.

现在我站在另一边，所以我知道评选的难度有多大。

So I I I I now I'm the other side, so I I know the difficulty to combat that.

但我会寻找那些真正创新且有趣的方案。

So but I will I will look to something very innovative and interesting.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我也非常期待。

I'm also looking forward to it.

再次感谢你参加我们的播客，期待未来能与你继续合作播客节目，或许我们还可以邀请你合作过的患者一起参与。

And thank you again for coming to our podcast, looking to the future podcast with you, and maybe we can do one with you and the patients that you worked with.

在我们结束播客之前，你有什么想对我们的听众分享的吗？

And as we're ending our podcast, is there anything you would like to share with our listeners?

也许有些内容我没问到，但你仍然想提及的。

Maybe something that I didn't ask, but you still want to mention.

好的。

Yeah.

好的。

Yeah.

既然你提到了参与者，可能还有一件事想说。

Maybe just one thing about the since you mentioned the participants.

是的。

Yes.

我要感谢这些参与者。

I want to thank the participants.

我之所以喜欢这个，是因为他们是先驱者，也是BCI先驱者联盟的成员。

I mentioned I like this because they are the pioneers and they are also part of the BCI Pioneers Coalition.

这个联盟是由一位前参与者创立的，他完成了一项试验体验。

It is a coalition founded by one of the ex participants, so a participant that finished his experience in a in a trial.

因此他现在是这个联盟的领导者。

So that he's now the leader of this coalition.

他们都是很棒的人。

They are wonderful people.

他们自称是超级英雄，因为他们拥有不同的超能力。

They they call themselves we call themselves superheroes because they they have different powers.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为他们会说，哦，好吧。

Because they say, oh, okay.

我在某个流程中有发言权。

I have a speech in a procedure.

其他人拥有现代神经处理器。

Other has the modern neuroprocess.

所以他们会在活动中见面，这非常棒。

So they they they they they meet in events, and it's very nice.

对于学生们，我真心建议你们观看一些他们的视频或活动，因为他们能真正让你体验到使用这项技术的感觉，而且他们也是这个群体的一部分。

And for students, I I really suggest to watch some of their videos or events because they can have really the give you the of the experience of someone using that, and, also, they are part of the group.

他们是这项研究中真正的先驱者，没有他们，一切都不可能实现。

They are the real pioneers in this research, and without them, nothing would be possible.

真的非常非常感谢他们为此奉献了自己的时间和生命，他们每天都来参加实验。

So really, really, I wanna thank you them for donating their time and and life to this, and they are coming every day to run sessions.

这是为科学未来做出的惊人努力。

So it is an incredible effort for the future for science.

他们是为了下一代而做这些。

They do this for the next generation.

为了未来。

For the future.

是的。

Yes.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我很高兴看到这个联盟，因为他们可以互相支持。

And I'm so glad to see this coalition because they can support each other.

我认为这非常重要。

I think that's so important.

同时也支持未来的参与者。

And also support future participants.

是的，看到这个我真的很高兴，我期待能和他们一起做一期播客。

I think, yes, I'm so glad to see that and I'm looking forward to doing a podcast with them.

再次感谢你，贾科莫。

So thank you again, Giacomo.

祝你一切顺利。

All the best.

那么我们未来的播客中再见。

And we will see you in our future podcast then.

祝你学业顺利。

All the best with your studies.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

《神经载体》播客的听众们，感谢你们加入我和这些非凡嘉宾的旅程，共同探索神经科学和神经技术领域的职业发展。

Neurocarriers podcast listeners, thank you for joining me and my incredible guests on this exciting journey into careers in neuroscience and neurotechnologies.

我希望这些将突破性想法转化为实际影响的故事能激励你们。

I hope you've been inspired by the stories of those turning groundbreaking ideas into impactful realities.

若您需要更多关于神经领域职业发展的指导，欢迎预约与我——K博士（你们的播客主持人兼神经职业教练）在神经方法研究所的咨询，这是唯一专门服务于神经科技专业人士需求的职业服务机构。

If you are looking for more guidance on advancing your neuro career, book a consultation with me, Doctor K, your podcast host and neuro careers coach at the Institute of Neuro Approaches, the only career service dedicated specifically to the needs of professionals in neurotech.

让我们携手迈向您在神经领域职业成功的下一步。

Let's take the next step toward your neurocareer success together.

除了免费咨询外，神经方法研究所还提供多种服务，旨在帮助您在神经科技领域蓬勃发展。

In addition to free consultations, the Institute of Neuro approaches offers a variety of services designed to help you thrive in neurotech.

首先是职业发展规划。

First, professional development planning.

我们帮助您制定个性化的职业发展计划，识别知识缺口，并为您提供在神经科学和神经技术领域实现目标所需的工具。

We help you create a tailored career development plan, identify knowledge gaps, and equip you with the tools needed to achieve your goals in neuroscience and neurotechnologies.

第二，简历和求职信审核。

Second, a resume and cover letter review.

获取专家反馈，学习如何专门针对神经科技领域的职位机会打造申请材料。

Get expert feedback on how to craft documents that are specifically designed for job opportunities in the neurotech field.

第三，面试准备。

Third, interview preparation.

通过模拟面试和针对性反馈来提升面试技巧，包括软技能、神经科技硬技能（如BCI、EG、MED）、现场编程和演讲准备。

Sharpen your interview skills through mock interviews and targeted feedback including soft skills, hard skills in neurotech, bci, eg, med, live coding and presentation preparation.

第四，人脉拓展与求职策略。

Four) Networking and job search strategy.

学习如何在竞争激烈的神经科技就业市场中有效建立人脉并挖掘工作机会。

Learn how to effectively network and uncover job opportunities while standing out in the competitive neurotech job market.

薪酬谈判与薪资建议。

Negotiation and salary advice.

获取专家指导，学习如何协商薪资福利，并为目标职位确定合理的薪酬范围。

Receive expert guidance on negotiating salaries and benefits and determining a fair salary range for your desired position.

这一切以及更多内容都可以在www.neuroapproaches.org上找到。

All this and more can be found at www.neuroapproaches.org.

再次提醒，网址是ww.neuroapproaches.org。

Again, ww.neuroapproaches.org.

那你还在等什么呢？

So what are you waiting for?

让我们一起探索神经科学职业的成功之路，将不可能变为可能。

Let's navigate the path to success in the world of neurocareers together and turn the impossible into possible.

我们期待与您合作。

We're looking forward to working with you.