从实验室到立法与创业：阿曼达·威金斯博士的非传统神经科学职业生涯

如果购买任何形式的人体组织都将被视为非法，那么这种行为将被取缔，新西兰的每一个生物实验室都将触犯法律。

And if it becomes illegal to purchase any form of human tissue, this is going to be outlawed, and and and every biology lab in New Zealand will be infringing the law.

所以我们必须在这里做出改变。

So we've gotta make a change here.

于是，接下来就是长达数月的反复讨论，关于如何为这类行为开辟例外条款，这与黑市上的人体器官交易截然不同。

And so, yeah, what ensued was many months of back and forth, back and forth, back and forth around how do we carve out allowances for this type of thing, which is very, very different to black market, say, of human organs.

对吧？

Right?

完全不同。

Very different.

这就是我们最终采取的行动。

And so that's what we did.

那是一段相当激动人心的时光。

And it was a pretty exciting time.

你知道吗？

You know?

我当时在一栋高层建筑工作，那里可以完全无遮挡地看到我们的政府大楼，它被称为'蜂巢'。

I was working in a high rise, which had a total complete line of sight to our government building, which is called the Beehive.

它的形状就像一个蜂巢。

It's shaped like a Beehive.

有时我会一到办公室就说：'好的，阿曼达，请准备一下，8点03分过去向部长做简报。'

And I would sometimes I'd get to work, say, right, Amanda, please get ready to go over and brief the minister at 08:03.

他有个早餐会，你知道的，然后是午餐会，所以我就会直接过去那边。

He's got a breakfast, you know, meeting for lunch, so off I'd go, drop over there.

那感觉真的很酷。

It was really cool.

那是非常有趣的工作，而且正好符合我的期望——能够走出去，以更战略性的高层方式，用不同的方式运用我的科学知识。

It was really interesting work and, you know, a good match for exactly what I wanted to do, which was to be out and about putting my science to use in a different way at a more kind of strategic high level way.

是的，那项法案后来也获得了通过。

And, yeah, that that was passed until also.

那是在2008年通过的。

That was passed in 2008.

那么你们是如何确保科学家仍能购买组织样本，同时禁止那些试图获取用于移植和交易的人使用的？

So how did you manage to actually save the possibility for scientists to purchase the tissue and prohibit the use for those who are trying to get it for transplants, yes, and trade it.

是的。

Yeah.

我们只是为一些非常特定的用途开了例外。

So we just made a carve out for some really specific uses.

我们列举了一些例子，比如实验室用途、学术用途这类情况，同时仍保持总体意图——防止器官、血液等这类物品的买卖。

So, you know, we're listing some examples and laboratory use of, academic use of that type of thing, while still maintaining the overall intent, was to prevent the sale and purchase of, you know, organs and blood and that type of thing.

所以你当时是恰逢其时。

So you were at the right place at the right time.

对吗？

Yes?

如果你不在那里，我真不知道会怎样。

If you weren't there, I don't know.

科学家们会遇到很多麻烦。

There would be many problems for scientists.

我知道。

I know.

确实是个问题。

Real problem.

是啊。

Yeah.

那太棒了。

That's wonderful.

还有一点我很欣赏的是，在我们的谈话中你主动联系了新西兰还是澳大利亚的人？

And what I also liked from the con from our conversation that you proactively contacted people in, was it New Zealand or it was Australia?

你是回到哪里？

Where did you return?

新西兰。

New Zealand.

回到新西兰。

Back to New Zealand.

是的。

Yeah.

新西兰。

New Zealand.

对。

Yes.

回到新西兰。

Back to New Zealand.

没错。

Yes.

所以你回来前就已经联系过他们了？

So you already contacted them even before coming back?

是的。

I did.

实际上我做得更彻底，梅琳娜。

I actually took a I didn't even a stick further than that, Melina.

那时在新西兰，关于基因改造的使用正进行着一场非常激烈的公众辩论。

I so at that time in New Zealand, there was a huge public really fiery debate going on about the use of genetic modification.

后来这就演变成了所谓的暂停令。

And that's what became a what's called a moratorium.

这是个专业术语，但基本意思就是我们要暂时叫停。

It's a technical term, but it basically means we're just gonna put a hold.

我们不允许在新西兰进行任何基因改造，但也不是完全禁止。

We're not gonna allow any genetic modification in New Zealand, but we're not batting it.

我们某种程度上会保持观望状态。

We're kinda gonna keep a watching brief.

他们把这个称为暂停令。

Moratorium is what they called it.

议会前还发生过抗议活动。

But there's been protests at parliament.

你知道吗？

You know?

新西兰当时是一个非常干净环保的国家，人们都热切希望保持这种状态。

New Zealand is a very, at that time, very clean green country, and people are passionate about keeping it that way.

对吧？

Right?

这就是当时新西兰国内的情况。

So that was going on back here in New Zealand.

我当时住在旧金山，所以看到了发表观点的机会。

I was living in San Francisco, so I saw an opportunity to put an opinion out.

我实际上为惠灵顿的主要报纸写了一篇专栏文章，他们刊登了。

I actually wrote an op ed piece for the main newspaper, the Wellington newspaper, which they published.

他们付给我大约285美元，这在当时感觉是笔不小的数目。

They paid me something like $285, which felt like quite a lot at the time.

不错。

Good.

在那篇专栏中，我阐述了为什么生物技术对社会非常有益。

And I in that op ed, I made the argument for why biotechnology can be very beneficial for societies.

它能提高作物产量并减少虫害侵扰。

It can improve, you know, crop yields and reduce pest infestations.

我当时还写到了新西兰一些在国际舞台上表现优异的生物科技公司，正是这个热点话题帮我获得了那份工作。

And I I wrote about, at that time, some of the really cool New Zealand biotech companies that were going quite well on the international stage, and so that helped me get the job because it was such a hot topic.

时机刚刚好。

It was just the right time.

我就这样入职了。

I came in.

由于我在海外生活太久，几乎没人认识我。

No one really knew who I was because I'd lived overseas for so long.

所有人都在问：这个在报纸上发表文章的阿曼达·威金斯博士是谁？

Everyone was like, who is this doctor Amanda Wiggins publishing in the paper?

还是大报。

A big paper.

占了半个版面呢。

Oh, half a page.

在那个年代，人们还会阅读报纸，你知道的，实体报纸在每间午餐室里都能找到，尤其是政府大楼周围。

And back in the day when people read newspapers and, you know, physical copies of newspapers were in every lunchroom, especially around government buildings.

所以我觉得，这某种程度上帮了我的忙。

And so that I think, you know, that that kinda helped my cause there.

所以我想说，如果听众中有考虑转行到政府工作的，试着让自己出名一点，你知道的。

So I think, you know, if you've got listeners who are contemplating switching into a government role, try to get your name out there, you know.

对。

Yeah.

试着写篇文章，或者为自己打造一个公众形象，发表些对社会重要议题的看法，特别是科学与社会的交界领域，是的，这就是我的建议。

Try to write an article or create yourself a bit of a profile with an opinion about something that's important for society and particularly the interface of society with science, yeah, that that's what I would suggest.

让自己出名一点。

Get your name out there.

展示你是一个思考科学对世界影响的人——如何带来益处、存在哪些风险、以及你将如何管理这些风险。

Show that you're someone who's thinking about the impact of science on the world, how it can be beneficial, what the risks are, how you would manage those risks.

要知道，基因改造确实存在风险，这些风险需要被正视和识别出来。

You know, there are risks to genetic modification actually, and those do need to be addressed and identified.

所以这是一种平衡，既要看到创新为人类带来的潜在益处，同时也要管控风险。

So it's that that kind of balancing, you know, the potential for human benefit from innovation, but also managing the risks at the same time.

而这正是注册法规的核心意义所在。

And that's really what register regulations are all about.

那么最终他们改变立场了吗？

So did they change at at the end of the day?

他们取消暂停令了吗？

Did they stop the moratorium?

或者说这个事件最后是怎么收尾的？

Or how how did the story end?

遗憾的是，并没有什么戏剧性的结局。

Unfortunately, it's not like like a big end.

更像是通过一系列渐进调整，逐步放宽了部分限制。

It's more like a rolling series of changes where they relax the rules somewhat.

所以现在在新西兰，虽然可以在封闭环境中进行基因改造试验，但审批流程依然极其严苛。

So now in New Zealand, yes, you can undertake genetic modification trials in the closed environment, but it's a very, very onerous process to get through.

存在许多制衡机制。

There's lots of checks and balances.

因此，虽然从技术上讲我们仍然维持着禁令，但现在已开辟了进行基因改造实验的途径，特别是针对田间作物等必须隔离的物种，直到能确定其影响为止。

So, yes, we still technically have the moratorium in place, but there's now avenues for experimenting with genetic modification, particularly around field crops and things that have to be contained until you can determine what the impact is.

你提到这点很好，因为我们现在正面临许多关于伦理使用神经技术的法规制定，比如——

So good that you are mentioning that because we have right now many regulations that people are trying to put in place in terms of ethical use of neurotechnologies, for example.

是的。

Yes.

植入技术可能引发的保密性破坏、不道德使用以及所有权归属问题。

Implantation and possible breaches of confidentiality and unethical use and to whom they can belong.

没错。

Yes.

由谁来负责维护这些设备。

Who will be taking care of them.

举例来说，如果进行植入的公司破产，无法继续支持设备运行，那该怎么办？

If for example, the company that implanted gets bankrupt and they cannot support the device anymore, what happens then?

因此，与之相关的问题确实非常多。

So there are so many issues that are related to that.

我认为那些正在推动相关法规制定的人，可以将你视为榜样——你在生物技术领域做出了诸多贡献，我相信他们能从你和你的经验中学到许多相关的东西。

And I think people who are trying to get those regulations in place, they can think of you as an example, who did so many things in biotech industry, which I think, there are many relevant things that they can learn from you and from your experience.

哇。

Wow.

谢谢。

Thank you.

当然。

Of course.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你提到这一点。

Thank you for mentioning that.

那么在你真正做出贡献后，尤其是关于这项法规，你感觉如何？它又将你引向何方？

So how did you feel after you really made your contribution, yes, with this regulation, and where did it bring you next?

哦，当法案通过时我欣喜若狂。

Oh, I was elated when that passed into law.

这是项重要工作，对研究界也是重大胜利。能走出去与众多研究者交流他们如何使用人体组织，这让我感到非常有趣且收获颇丰。

It was a significant piece of work and a significant win for the research community as well, And very interesting for me to get out and about talking to lots of researchers around how they use human tissue, so that was really good.

我还参与了政府当时正在推进的另一项计划，名为《生物技术研究路线图》。

I also got involved in another initiative that the government was working on at the time called the Biotechnology Research Roadmap.

我想在新西兰这里，政府研发资金池相当有限，因此政府倾向于识别能获得最大回报的领域。

So I guess here in New Zealand, we have a fairly limited pool of government r and d funding, and so the government tends to like to identify areas where they can get the biggest return.

当时生物技术很热门，政府希望制定一个研发路线图，围绕资金分配及其随时间推移的流向进行规划。

And so biotechnology was big at the time, and the government wanted to put an R and D roadmap and base around what, you know, funding and and where it goes over time.

我在项目接近尾声时参与其中，我的任务是和另一位出色的女性一起，向新西兰各地研究机构推广介绍这份生物技术路线图。

So I got involved in the project just as it was towards the end of being written, and my job was to go out with another fabulous woman and go and socialize and present this biotechnology roadmap to all the research institutions around New Zealand.

不。

No.

那太糟糕了。

That was so bad.

研究人员并不喜欢政府告诉他们应该研究什么。

The researchers don't really like government telling them what they should be researching.

对吧？

Right?

他们也不喜欢这种自上而下地指定新西兰生物技术研发重点领域的方式。

And they don't really like a top down approach identifying the most important areas for New Zealand's biotech r and d.

他们想要学术自由，做自己感兴趣的研究。

They want academic freedom to do the research that they want to do.

所以在一些会议上，研究人员会站起来冲我们大喊大叫，让我们滚出去。

So some of those meetings, researchers would stand up and yell at us, tell us to get out.

他们根本不想看到这个计划，情况确实很糟糕。

They don't wanna see it, and it was it was not great.

不过嘛...

But yeah.

总之，这项工作在新西兰变得有点名气，因为它实在太具争议性了。

Anyway, that that that piece of work has sort of become a bit famous in New Zealand because it was so controversial.

总之，不幸的是，你知道，快进到现在，生物技术已经不再是那么受关注的领域了，不像当年那样。

And anyway, unfortunately, you know, fast forward to now, biotech is not really that much of a focus, not not as much as it was back then.

而且，你知道，和许多国家一样，新西兰在研发资金方面仍然相当受限。

And, you know, the country continues to be fairly constrained in its ability to fund the r and d like many countries.

作为一个小的国家，政府能提供的研发资金毕竟有限。

You know, as a small country, there's only so much government funding available.

所以，哦，对，我参与过那个项目。

So, oh, yeah, I did that.

我还参与过另一项非常有趣的法规工作，那是在新西兰，每当有婴儿出生时，他们会从婴儿的脚趾取一小滴血，检测每个婴儿是否患有代谢疾病。

I worked on a couple of really another really interesting piece of regulation I worked on was in New Zealand, when every baby is born, they take a tiny blood prick from the toe, and they every baby's blood for metabolic diseases.

这是一个新生儿筛查项目。

It's a newborn screening program.

所有这些血卡上的血样都被保存在一个巨大的仓库里。

And every single one of those blood card blood spot cards is held in a huge warehouse.

当时我们正在对该项目的监管框架进行更新，我强烈主张研究人员应该能够使用这些血样进行研究。

So we were there was a refresh going on around the regulatory framework for that, and I came in pretty hard arguing that researchers should have access to those blood spots so that they can conduct research.

多么庞大的人类血液样本数据库啊。

What a huge database of human blood samples.

这也引发了一些争议，因为涉及到隐私和知情同意的问题。

So that caused a bit of a ruckus as well because, you know, privacy and consent.

知情同意是个大问题。

Consent is a huge issue.

如果你提供了宝宝的血液样本，却不想让宝宝参与研究项目怎么办？

And what if you gave your baby's blood spot and you don't want to be part that baby to be part of the research project?

我们解决这个问题的方法是引入一个知情同意流程，在采集血液样本时让母亲签署一份同意书，简单说明这些样本也可能用于研究，母亲可以选择签署或不签署。

So the way we got around that was to introduce a consent process, a consent form at the time of the blood spot being taken that just simply explains that this blood spot may also be used for research, and the the mother can sign that or or choose not to.

你可以选择退出。

You can opt out.

此外，任何想要使用这些血液样本的研究人员都必须通过伦理委员会的批准。

And, also, any researchers who wanted to access those blood spots have to go through an ethics committee approval.

所以，这又是一种制衡机制。

So, again, it's that kind of checks and balances.

我的意思是，显然利用这个包含新西兰所有新生儿的海量数据库进行研究具有巨大潜力，但必须要有制衡机制。

I mean, obviously, there's huge potential to have research conducted on this massive database of every baby ever born in New Zealand, but you've gotta have checks and balances.

对吧？

Right?

人们重视自己的隐私。

People value their privacy.

他们珍视自己的基因数据。

They value their own genetic data.

所以，是的，我认为制衡机制是其中的关键信息。

So, yeah, the checks and balances, I guess, is the key message there.

是的。

Yes.

另外，我从你的经历中注意到——我想这也是很多人都有共鸣的——有时我们会遇到让我们对成果感到满意的成功项目。

And also, what I've noticed from your experience that that, I think resonates with the experiences that many people have, that sometimes we have successful projects where we feel good about what happened.

对吗？

Yes?

那是你的初始项目。

And that was your initial project.

然后随着这份生物技术路线图的推进，事情并没有像你希望的那样顺利。

Then with this biotech roadmap, things were not going as nice as you would like them.

是的。

Yes.

发生。

To happen.

而且正如你所说，有些人甚至尖叫或行为反常。

And there were people who were, like you said, even screaming or behaving differently.

但我们总能从所有经历中汲取精华，从中学习，并加以利用，为未来的自己谋利。

But, we can always take the best from all our experiences, learn from them, and use them, for our benefit in the future.

那么首先，当事情进展不如预期顺利时，你是如何应对那些情况的？

So first of all, how did you handle those situations where things were not going as smoothly as probably you would like to?

你又是如何将这些经验运用到未来职业发展中为自己谋利的呢？

And how did you use that experience in your future career for your own benefit?

当与你交谈的人情绪激动时，确实很难处理。

It's difficult when someone you're speaking to is very emotional.

我想我学到的是，那并不是尝试与他们理性沟通的合适时机。

I guess the learning for me is it's not the right time to try to rationalize with them.

或许最好的方法就是试着共情。

Probably the best approach there is is just try to empathize.

我能理解你为什么如此沮丧。

I can understand why you would be upset.

这样吧，我们线下单独沟通，看看能否解决你的顾虑。

You know, let's take this offline and see if we can address your concerns.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为从中得到的教训是，永远不要与情绪激动的人正面冲突。

I think my takeaway there is never try to go head to head with someone who's really hit up.

你知道的，那样做很可能不会有好结果。

You know, it's probably not gonna be successful.

对我来说，关键收获就是人们会有强烈的情感。

For me, the takeaway there was just, you know, people have have big emotions.

他们对研究充满热情，科学家们如此，学术自由确实至关重要，我们需要尊重这一点，我认为这才是我的真正领悟。

They're they're very passionate about research, scientists, and academic freedom is really a big thing, and we and we need to respect that, I think that was my real takeaway.

是的。

Yes.

说得好。

Beautiful.

说得好。

Beautiful.

这不是一次轻松的经历，但谁说它应该轻松呢？

Not an easy experience, but who said that it should be?

没错。

Yes.

所以你学到了很多，这是一次重要的经历。

So you learned a lot and it was an important experience.

那么接下来发生了什么？

So what what happened next?

这已经很多了。

That's a lot already.

是的。

Yes.

但当时是什么情况？

But what was going on?

嗯，

Well,

我心里一直有个想法，就是真的很想进入工业界。

I had always had in the back of my mind that I really wanted to get into industry.

我想进入生物技术行业。

I wanted to get into the biotech industry.

在新西兰这是个相当小的行业，我开始稍微对外谈论这个想法。

It's quite a small industry in New Zealand and I kind of started talking about that, you know, a bit externally.

我开始与一些人建立联系。

I started connecting with a few people.

我想这大概是在政府部门工作了八年之后，至今仍是我做过的最棒的工作之一。

So this is after about I think I was in that government ministry for about eight years altogether, and it was still some of the to this day, of the best work I've ever done, actually.

社会与科学的交汇确实非常有趣。

Really very interesting that interface of society and science.

不过，总之，我...嗯。

So but, anyway, I I yeah.

我开始在城里四处打听，你知道的，关于生物科技行业的工作机会，我能做些什么？

I started talking around town, you know, jobs in the biotech industry, what can what can I do?

然后惠灵顿一家名为Creative HQ的商业孵化器找到了我。

And I was approached by business incubator in Wellington called Creative HQ.

他们想试点一个关于科研成果商业化的项目，为科学家提供服务，帮助他们度过判断科研成果是否具有商业潜力的早期阶段。

They wanted to pilot a program around commercializing science, providing services to scientists to help them get through that very sort of early stage of working out whether their science has got commercial potential.

所以他们给了我一份一年期的固定合同，算是尝试一下，看看效果如何。

So they offered me a one year fixed term contract to sort of give this a bit of a go, see how it would go.

我担任的职位可以算是项目经理吧，我的工作就是去和研究科学家们交流，帮助他们识别研究中的商业潜力。

And I I was a sort of program manager, I guess you would call it, and my job was to go out and talk to research scientists about their research and and help them identify where there was commercial potential.

我的每周安排非常棒。

So we would I mean, my my week was was really cool.

这真的很有趣。

It was really interesting.

我经常出差参加会议，和人们讨论他们正在做的酷炫项目，我们有一套评估工作的框架。

I was on the road quite a lot going to meetings, talking to people about the cool stuff they were doing, and I we had a, I guess, a framework that we would put the work through.

我通常会亲自处理，或者外包给专业人士，我们称之为'初步筛选'。

I would often do it or I'd contract someone in, a sort of a triage we called it.

我们会花40小时快速研究这个创意是否具有商业潜力。

We'd we'd do a quick we'd spend forty hours just researching whether this idea had commercial potential or not.

市场竞争情况如何？

What does the competition look like?

如何将这样的产品推向市场？

How do you get such a product to market?

从监管角度来看是否可行？

Is it feasible from a regulatory perspective?

存在哪些障碍？

What what are the barriers?

就是这类问题。

That type of thing.

它的独特性如何？

How unique is it?

如果有公司介入，能否建立知识产权优势？

Is there an IP position that the company could take if there was a company?

这是一种用商业视角对科学构想进行的快速筛选评估。

So it was a kind of a rapid fire triage of a science idea with a commercial lens.

这工作太棒了。

It was so great.

但遗憾的是，我们没能为这个项目争取到持续资金。

But, unfortunately, we couldn't secure the ongoing funding for that.

那是一个政府资助的项目。

That was a government funded program.

所以只是一份为期一年的固定期限合同。

So just a one year fixed term contract.

而且，对我来说很幸运的是，在合同快结束时，我联系上了一家与该计划有关联的公司，这家公司总体上与商业孵化计划有关，他们说需要一名法规事务经理。

And, yeah, luckily for me, towards the end of that, I connected with a company who was associated to with the program, with the business incubator program generally, and they said, we need a regulatory manager.

我说，嗯，我的合同即将到期。

And I said, well, I'm about to come to the end of my contract.

这听起来真的很不错。

This is sounding really good.

于是我就接受了这份工作。

And I took up the job.

那是一家生物技术初创公司。

So that was a that was a biotech startup.

他们拥有一种在室内生物培养箱中培育特定藻类的高科技方法，并从中提取一种名为虾青素的高价值营养保健品。

They had a really high-tech way of growing a particular type of algae indoors and a bio incubator, and they were extracting out a high value nutraceutical called astaxanthin.

是的，我加入了他们并负责一些监管事务，但不知道你对初创公司了解多少，米莱娜，最终你基本上什么都要做。

And, yeah, I joined them and I was working on some of the regulatory stuff, but I don't know how much you've had to do with startups, Milena, you end up sort of doing everything.

我还承担了市场营销的角色，这也是我第一次涉足天然保健品行业。

I took on the marketing role and that was my first foray into the natural health product industry as well.

是的。

Yes.

我很好奇，是什么吸引你进入这个行业的？

And I'm very curious, what attracted you to industry?

你提到你潜意识里一直有个想法，想要尝试获得行业经验。

You mentioned that you always had somewhere on the back of your mind that, yes, you want to try, you want to have that industry experience.

那么具体是什么呢？

So what was it?

哦，这个嘛。

Oh, look.

我认为是科学转化为现实世界影响的过程真正吸引了我。

I think it's just that translation of science into real world impact that really interests me.

而且，你知道，我当时签了一份为期一年的合同，某种程度上是在参与科学成果转化旅程的最早期阶段——就是科学需要经历这个过程才能进入社会。

And and, you know, I'd had that one year contract sort of working at that kind of the very earliest stages of that translation journey that science needs to take to get into society.

但你知道，商业领域才是真正落地的地方。

But, you know, businesses is where it actually hits the ground.

对吧？

Right?

在那里，你需要足够的资金来开发产品，并进行市场推广和销售。

That's where you need the right amount of money to create a product and get that product marketed and sold.

对我来说，这才是最终目标。

And that's, to me, is really the ultimate.

就像我们在世界各地的暗室里埋头工作，花费无数时间盯着显微镜，进行那些并不那么愉快的动物手术。

It's like we're doing all this work in dark rooms around different cities of the world, staring down microscopes for countless hours and and animal surgeries that don't feel that great.

所有这些工作都极其繁重。

And all of that is so, so much work.

我们必须让这些研究成果造福人类——无论是健康效益、社会效益、环境效益、粮食保护效益，还是其他任何领域。

We need to get these results out into benefit for humans, health benefit, societal benefit, environmental benefit, food protection benefit, what it you know, what whatever it is.

我对此充满热情，希望将这些研究发现推广到社会中。

I I'm really passionate about that, getting these findings out into society.

是啊。

Yeah.

但这很有挑战性。

But it's challenging.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，将一个想法转化为产品或服务，这是一段非常非常具有挑战性的旅程。

I mean, taking something from an idea to a product or a service is is a very, very challenging journey.

而且在新西兰，统计数据非常明确。

And and here in New Zealand, the statistics are very clear.

90%的初创企业都会失败。

Ninety percent of startups fail.

他们资金耗尽了。

They run out of money.

多少？

How how many?

创业公司的失败率是多少？

What is the percentage of startups that fail?

百分之九十。

Ninety percent.

哦。

Oh.

我知道。

I know.

主要原因...哦对。

And and the main reason oh, yeah.

是他们未能实现足够规模的营收，最终资金耗尽。

Is that that they fail to scale to significant enough revenue and they run out of money.

对于研发型企业来说，实际研发本身就需要巨额投资。

So with, you know, r and d based companies, there's a huge amount of investment required in the actual r and d itself.

而研发成果的产品化过程，以及监管审批路径，根据具体情况可能会极其复杂且漫长。

And the productization of the r and d, the regulatory approval pathway, depending on what it is, can be incredibly complex and long.

所有这些都需要持续投入资金，因为在最初的若干年里，在产品面市之前你基本没有任何收入来源

And that all takes investment because you you for probably the first number of years, you have no revenue until

直到产品成功

you get a product in

推向市场。

the market.

因此这种情况极具挑战性，这也是导致高达90%失败率的根本原因。

So that that is a very challenging situation, and that's the underlying cause of, like, the ninety percent failure rate.

是啊。

Yeah.

我虽然在笑，但这确实很艰难。

I smile, but I'm it's hard.

确实。

Yeah.

确实很难。

It is hard.

但你有没有看到这些公司里的人下次会再尝试，也许用不同的方法、不同的公司、不同的产品，然后可能成功？

But do you see people in these companies trying it again next time, maybe with different approach, with different company, with different product, and maybe succeeding?

一个人要经历多少次这样的过程才能最终成功？

How many attempts does it take for a person to go through this process to succeed finally?

那么你的观察是什么？

So what is your observation?

我认为，在新西兰，我们看到很多人才的循环利用。

I think, you know, in New Zealand, what we see is a lot of recycling of talent.

正如你指出的，梅琳娜，一旦你经历过一次并且失败了，你就会学到其中的陷阱。

So as you pointed out, Melina, you know, once you've done it once and and opt failed, you learn the pitfalls.

你学到了下次会采取不同的做法，我们看到很多这样的情况。

You learn what you would do differently, and and we see a lot of that.

我们看到很多年轻人，他们曾经创业失败，但带着另一个真正的好点子回来，因为那种创业精神在他们身上依然鲜活旺盛。

You know, we see a lot of young people who've had a start up that failed who come back in with another really good idea because that entrepreneurial spirit is really alive and well in them.

我另一个普遍的观察是，科学家领导公司通常不太符合性格匹配。

My other sort of general observation is around scientists leading companies is often not a good personality fit.

很多科学家相当内向，而领导公司需要非常外向。

A lot of scientists are quite introverted, and when you're leading a company, you've gotta be quite extroverted.

你需要不断对外宣传，筹集资金，推广你的事业，构建梦想。

You've gotta be out there talking about it a lot, raising capital, and promoting what you're trying to do, building a dream.

对吧？

Right?

所以根据我的观察，这里存在一定程度的性格类型错配。

So there's a bit of a mismatch of of personality types there from what I've seen.

因此初创企业的发展历程中常见的情况是：发展到某个阶段后，他们会引入非原始科学家的CEO，这正是我现在的工作。

So what tends to happen in the journey of a start up is they'll get to a certain point, and they'll bring in a CEO who's not the original scientist, and that's what I'm doing now.

我现在为一家公司工作。

So I work for a company now.

这家公司叫CGP实验室。

The company is called the CGP Lab.

我不是创始科学家。

I'm not the founding scientist.

他们聘请我担任CEO来推动公司发展，带领公司进入下一阶段。

They've brought me in as a CEO to drive the growth of the company and take it through to the next stage of development.

这就像是我之前所做一切的自然结晶——神经科学、监管事务、还有我热爱与人交流的特质，这个角色简直像是为我量身定制的，而我现在就在做这件事。

And it's like this kind of perfect culmination of all these other things I've done, the neuroscience, regulatory, you know, the love of being out there talking to people and whatnot is is is it's like a perfect role that was almost just created and kind of here I am doing it.

太棒了。

That's great.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

这个职位就是为你而设的。

It was created just for you.

是的。

Yes.

哦，就像是

Oh, was like

是你的错。

was your fault.

又一次天时地利。

Right place, right time once again.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我记得史蒂夫·乔布斯在一次演讲或采访中说过，生命中会有某个时刻，所有事情都会各就各位。

I remember that Steve Jobs said in one of his talks or it was an interview that there is one point in life when all things fall into place.

是的。

Yes.

因为当我们经历人生时，会获得这样或那样的经验，而我们当时真的看不清这一切会如何协同作用。

So because when we're going through life, we're getting one experience or another experience, and we really don't see how this all can play together.

但就像发生在你身上的那个转折点，一切突然明朗——是的，包括那些暗室实验、你的摄影作品、研究工作、行业规范以及你在该领域的初期经历。

But there is this point like it happened for you, that everything came, yes, and dark labs, whatever you were photographing, doing your research and the regulatory and your initial experience in the industry.

所有这些经历汇聚起来，为你提供了现在能够充分展示你所有才能和积累经验的机会。

It's all came and provided you with this opportunity to really now showcase all your talents and experience that you acquired.

所以我认为，我的职业生涯有些非典型，因为我既做过学术研究，也在政府部门从事过监管工作，现在又进入商界，这种跨越如此多不同领域——不同类型的工作——并不常见。

So I think, you know, I think the the thing my career has is somewhat atypical because, you know, I've been an academic researcher, I've worked in government, regulatory, and now business, and I think that that's not normal to to cross so many different spectrum, right, of of types of jobs.

但对我来说，这让我始终保持兴趣。

But for me, it keeps me interested.

我是个喜欢学习新事物的人，在商界打拼已有十一年，至今仍在不断汲取新知。

I'm a person who likes learning new things, and I've been in the business world for eleven years now, and I'm just learning so much.

我真心希望自己能回到当初翻阅奥塔哥大学手册、浏览商科课程时的情景，那时我还觉得这些内容——

I really wish I think back to when I was flicking through that handbook of Otago University, looking at the business papers thinking, oh, oh, back then I thought, oh, god.

无聊透顶。

Boring.

无聊透顶。

Boring.

我真希望当初能选修几门商业课程。

I really wish I'd taken a few business papers.

当然，要是能接受些正规的商业教育就好了，但我没有。

Of course, to have some formal education in business, but I didn't.

所以我现在是在工作中边做边学，同时也阅读了大量资料。

And so I'm I'm learning on the job, learning as I go, and doing quite a bit of reading as well.

这就是我的职业经历，而现在我正在领导一家公司。

That's kind of my career story, and and now I'm leading a company.

我们正在将一种二肽分子商业化，它叫做环甘氨酸脯氨酸，简称CGP。

We're commercializing a dipeptide molecule, is called cyclic glycine proline or CGP for short.

CGP非常非常有趣，因为它是一种高度神经活性的分子。

And CGP is really, really interesting because it's a very neuroactive molecule.

它能穿过血脑屏障进入大脑，实际上在体内也有类似作用，通过竞争性结合调节激素IGF-1——当CGP与结合蛋白结合时，会置换出IGF-1使其更具生物活性。

It crosses the blood brain barrier, and it gets into the brain and does a similar thing in the body as well, actually, but it regulates the hormone IGF-one, and so it does that by competing with IGF-one to bind to its binding protein, And when CGP binds to the binding protein, it dislodges IGF one, where IGF one can be more biologically active.

IGF-1有多种作用，但我们最关注的是它对45岁以上人群毛细血管新生的影响。

And IGF one does lots of different things, but the that we're most interested in for people who are about 45 age and over is its effect on capillary angiogenesis.

它能促进大脑中微小毛细血管的生长和修复。

So it spurs on the growth and repair of tiny capillaries in the brain.

因此，大脑中的血流是一个绝佳组合，特别是当你超过45岁后，我们每年会损失3%的脑血流量。

So blood flow and the brain, a great combination, especially as you get over the age of about 45 where we lose COVID, we lose three percent of on volume of blood flow in our brain each year.

所以，关注你的血流状况非常重要，而这可能是人们不太会想到的事情。

So, yeah, it's very important to look after your blood flow, and it's perhaps not something that people think about much.

关于CGP已有约30年的研究，研究表明内源性CGP水平较高的人在晚年认知能力更好，这确实具有神经保护的作用。

There's about thirty years of research on CGP, and the research shows that people who have a higher endogenous level of CGP have better cognition later in life, and so there's that kind of real neuroprotective angle.

几年前还有一项小鼠研究发表，显示给予CGP能够改善这些阿尔茨海默转基因小鼠的记忆力并减少凝血间隙。

And a couple of years ago, there was also a mouse study published that showed giving CGP was able to improve memory and reduce clotting gap in these Alzheimer's transgenic mice.

因此CGP具有巨大潜力，而我们才刚刚踏上这段旅程。

So there's a huge potential for CGP, and we're just at the start of that journey.

我们有一个名为CGP Max的膳食补充剂品牌在售，现在正在研究一项全新创新——CGP改善周围神经病变的能力。

We've got a dietary supplement brand that we sell called CGP Max, and we're now investigating a whole new sort of innovation, which is the ability of CGP to improve peripheral neuropathies as well.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常令人印象深刻。

That's very impressive.

你们是人工合成它，还是从某些天然来源中提取的？

Are you synthesizing it or you're extracting it from some natural sources?

我们具体是怎么做的？

How how do we do it?

是的。

Yeah.

我们使用新西兰的食品原料进行生产。

So we manufacture it from New Zealand food sources.

我们拥有专利生产工艺，将新西兰黑醋栗与牛胶原蛋白相结合。

So we've got a proprietary manufacturing process that combines New Zealand blackcurrant with bovine collagen.

是的，这两种成分的氨基酸组成富含甘氨酸和脯氨酸，通过长时间加热处理使甘氨酸与蛋白质环化形成环二肽，然后我们进行标准化处理以确保剂量统一。

So, yeah, there there's a an amino acid profile between those two ingredients of high glycine and proline content, and we put that through a prolonged heating process, which cyclizes the glycine and the protein together into that cyclic dipeptide, and then we standardise it so we know that we're giving a standardised dose.

是的。

Yeah.

公司花了大约两三年时间才真正开发出这套生产工艺。

So that's taken the company two or three years to really develop that manufacturing process.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你们未来的计划是什么？

And what are your future plans?

下一步打算怎么做？

What are your next steps?

这个产品的发展方向是什么？

Where are you heading with this product?

或者会开发新产品吗？

Or maybe with new products?

是的。

Yes.

我们已经用我们的产品进行了初步阶段的临床研究，研究对象是同时患有二型糖尿病和周围神经病变的患者。周围神经病变是指那些周围神经开始退化，患者会出现剧烈疼痛、刺痛感，最终通常是足部感觉丧失，这确实非常棘手，因为会导致平衡能力丧失。

So we've done a pilot stage clinical study with our product and it was in people who had type two diabetes together with peripheral neuropathy, which is where those peripheral nerves start to degenerate and people get a lot of pain and tingling and eventually loss of sensation usually in their feet, which is really, really problematic because you can have loss of balance.

患者的足部可能会受到损伤。

People can damage their feet.

他们甚至不知道自己是否出现了糖尿病足溃疡，因为他们感觉不到。

They don't know if they've got something like a diabetic ulcer because they can't feel it.

我们的初步临床研究表明，我们的CGP补充剂对于恢复足部感觉非常有效。

So our pilot stage clinical study showed that our CGP supplement is very effective for restoring sensation in the feet.

对此我们感到非常振奋，因为目前市面上没有任何其他疗法能做到这一点。

And we're now we're really excited about that because there's nothing there's no therapeutic available that does that.

虽然有获批的止痛药物，但没有任何产品能真正恢复血流。

There's pain medication that's approved, but nothing that actually restores blood flow.

所以我们对这一结果感到非常兴奋。

So we're very excited about this result.

这只是一项初步临床研究，样本量很小且没有对照组。

It was just a pilot stage clinical study, so very small numbers and no control group.

所以我们接下来非常想开展一项随机安慰剂对照研究，目前正在筹集资金来实现这个目标。

So we really want to undertake a randomized placebo controlled study next, and we're raising capital to make that happen.

是的。

Yes.

对你来说，从政府部门的监管类工作转型到创业领域、初创企业空间，最具挑战性的部分是什么？

What was the most challenging part for you transitioning from regulatory type of work in the government into this entrepreneurial space, the space of startups?

我想可能是那种冒名顶替综合症的感觉。

I think it's probably just that feeling of impostor syndrome.

我没有商业背景。

I don't come from a business background.

我没有接受过任何正规的商业教育。

I don't have any formal education in business.

所以过去我可能经常觉得，哦，我不属于这里，或者我没有相关知识，有时候会觉得自己像个冒牌货。

So I have, probably more in the past, just felt like, oh, I don't belong here or I don't have the knowledge or I I just feel like a bit of an impostor at times.

但现在这种感觉正在逐渐消失。

But that that's that's going away now.

我在商界已经摸爬滚打了十一年，现在每天都感觉自己越来越有资格立足于此。

I've been in I've been in the business world for eleven years now and I I'm, you know, I feel more and more, I guess the word is qualified to be here every day.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且在我跨越不同行业的旅程中——无论是监管领域还是商业领域——我发现人们通常都很乐意充当导师。

And and I've also found in my journey across these different different types of industries, you know, regulatory, business, that generally people are very happy to act as a mentor.

很幸运，我职业生涯中遇到过几位非常出色的前辈，他们给予我帮助和指导，教会我许多原本不懂的事情。

You know, I've been fortunate to have some really incredible people in my life professionally who've helped me out, who've advised me, assisted me to understand things that I didn't understand.

我想对听众朋友们建议：一定要主动把握这种资源。

And I would just I would just recommend to your listeners just really lean into that.

多向身边经验丰富的人请教，有些人确实会非常慷慨地分享他们的知识和时间。

Lean into the people around you who are really experienced and you know, there are there are certain people who are incredibly generous with their knowledge and their time.

他们愿意抽空和你喝杯咖啡或进行后续电话沟通之类的。

They'll take the time to have a coffee with you or a follow-up call or whatever.

真的要充分把握这些机会。

Just really just really lean into that.

好好享受这个过程。

Enjoy that.

然后当你到了我这个人生阶段时，也要成为他人的引路人。

And then when you get to this stage in life, my stage in life, be that person to others.

花时间与资历较浅的人喝杯咖啡。

Take the time to have a coffee with a more junior person.

告诉他们你的观察，他们可以改进的地方，或者成为他们的导师。

Tell them what you see, what they could do differently, or or, you know, be the mentor.

我真的很感激生命中那些慷慨付出时间和专业知识的人。

I I really appreciate certain people in my life who are very generous with the time and expertise.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

谢谢你提到这一点。

Thank you for mentioning that.

对于那些正处在科学与创业交汇处、刚刚开始探索的人，你会给他们什么建议？

And, what word of advice would you give to specifically those people who are right now at this intersection between science and entrepreneurship when they are just starting their journey?

你想对他们说些什么？

What would you tell them?

我会说：放手去做吧。

I would say just do it.

全力以赴，不要害怕失败。

Just go hard and and don't be afraid of failure, you know.

你的初创企业很可能会失败。

Chances are your startup might fail.

统计数据显示它可能会失败。

The statistics say it might fail.

别把这当作个人挫折。

Don't take that personally.

从中吸取教训就好。

Just learn the lesson.

我认为从非常务实角度来说，可能永远不要拿你的房子去冒险。

I think really pragmatically also, probably don't ever put your house on the line.

单从财务角度看，初创企业的失败统计数据相当惊人。

Just financially, startups, the statistics around startup failure are quite drastic.

务必保护好你自己的资产。

Make sure you protect your own assets.

这是个非常实用的真知灼见。

That's a real practical practical insight.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

这点说得很好。

That is a good one.

你能回忆起整个职业生涯中那些最初看似不可能，但最终被你实现的事情吗？

And can you recall things in all your career journey that seemed as impossible at at the beginning, but you eventually made it possible.

如果是这样，你是怎么做到的？

And if so, how did you do that?

正如我之前提到的，我非常想进入商界，但当时看不到途径。

You know, as I mentioned, I've I really wanted to get into the business world, but I couldn't see a way.

我那时的人生阶段无法回去读MBA。

I didn't I wasn't at a time in my life where I could go back and do an MBA.

当时我已经有两个孩子了。

I'd had two children by that stage.

我看不到突破困境的方法。

I couldn't see a way through that.

但同样地，通过与周围人交流，谈论我的理想和职业规划，这个绝佳的机会就出现了，让我得以开始进入商业领域。

But, again, it was just talking to people around me, talking about what I wanted to do, the journey I wanted to take, and this perfect, perfect, perfect opportunity came up that enabled me to to start to enter the world of business.

我非常感激那个机会。

And I'm very grateful for that opportunity.

你如何看待当前神经科学领域对生物科技产品的需求趋势？

What do you see the current tendencies in the need for biotech product in the neuroscience space?

人们在寻找什么？

What people are looking for?

需求是什么？

What is the need?

你认为这个行业在不久的将来会如何发展？

Where do you see the industry is going in the near future?

天啊。

Oh gosh.

我是说，需求实在太大了。

I mean, there's so much need out there.

我想我已经变得高度专注于痴呆症预防。

I think the thing I've I've become pretty hyper focused on dementia prevention.

高度专注。

Hyper focused.

显然还有很多其他需求，但就我个人而言，我们有几个家庭成员现在受到了影响，还有我这个年龄的朋友们，他们的父母也受到了痴呆症的影响。

There's a lot of other need, obviously, but just for me personally, we've we've got a couple of family members who've been affected now and and and also friends of my age whose parents are affected by dementia.

看着所爱之人逐渐失去自我，真是令人心碎。

It's just so heartbreaking to see a loved one lose themselves.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以对我来说，我一直在关注痴呆症研究的进展，天哪，确实有很多新发现。

So for me, I I I'm watching the pace of dementia research, and I see, gosh, there's a lot happening.

你知道，在预防领域、诊断领域都有很多成果，治疗方面也取得了一些进展，但还远远不够。

You know, there's a lot in the prevention space, the diagnostic space, and and some traction in the treatment space, but not as much as we need.

但我认为我们真正需要突破的是更早期的检测。

But I think where we really need to shift the dial there is much, much earlier detection.

我们知道痴呆症的早期阶段实际上可能在30岁左右就被检测出来。

So we know that the earlier stages of dementia actually could potentially be detected around age 30.

那么如果我们有这种检测工具，我们能做些什么呢？

And so if we had that tool, what could we do with that?

我们在预防方面也积累了不少知识，比如可改变的风险因素：饮食、运动、社交、营养等等这类因素。

We've also got quite good knowledge around prevention, right, modifiable risk factors, things like diet, exercise, connection, nutrition, those types of things.

我们该采取什么措施来扭转痴呆症日益严重的趋势？

What could we do to turn the dial on the rising tide of dementia?

这就是我目前正在思考的问题。

That to me that that's where my thinking is at at the moment.

我们在这个领域能做些什么，来帮助未来家庭不必经历这种痛苦？

What can we do in this space, you know, to help families not have to go through this in the future?

嗯。

Mhmm.

你如何看待生物科技领域与神经科学相关的职业机会？

And how do you see career opportunities in the same space of biotech in the related to neuroscience?

你认为产业界和监管领域哪个机会更多？

Do you see more opportunities in the industry, in the regulatory field.

你是否注意到学术界、监管机构和创业领域之间正在发生的变化？

Do you see any changes that are happening between those places like academia, regulatory, and entrepreneurship?

AI将是下一波浪潮，对吧？

I mean, AI is the next big wave, isn't it?

人工智能与脑机植入技术这类事物，那将是一个全新的世界。

And how AI and the brain implantables, that type of thing, that's a whole new world.

这很可能是下一个重大飞跃。

That's probably the next big leap.

对吧？

Right?

回想我在监管部门工作时，那时只有生物技术。

So back when I was working in regulatory, it was just biotech.

基因工程曾被视为重大突破。

Genetic engineering was considered a huge deal.

如今这已经变得稀松平常了。

That's kind of become normalized now.

试想五十年后，大多数人是否都会植入某种设备来提升表现、改变思维方式？

You know, if we look fifty years into the future, are most people going to have some sort of implantable device that helps them perform better, think differently?

那会是什么样子呢？

What what is that?

从监管角度来看，究竟该如何平衡潜在的社会效益与风险？比如如果只有部分人能获得这项技术，这是否会加剧社会不平等？

And and from a regulatory perspective, how on earth do you manage the potential balance, the the potential benefit society with risks, things like equitable access if only some people have access to the technology, is that going to increase inequities in society?

所以，这个问题还是留给下一代去解决吧。

So, oh, that let I'll just leave that to the next generation to sort that issue out.

这对我来说实在太复杂了。

That seems really complicated to me.

但与此同时，我认为传统药物研发模式在我有生之年并未发生太大改变，而这一切都可能加速并变得不同。

But I think at the same time, the kind of the the traditional model of pharma development, I don't that hasn't changed much over my lifetime, and that can all accelerate and be different.

我是说，你仍然需要所有的临床前研究、临床开发和监管审批。

I mean, you still need all the preclinical work, the clinical development, the regulatory approval.

我我看不出这方面会有太大变化。

I I can't see that changing much.

所以，你知道，在制药行业工作是个不错的选择。

So, you know, a career in pharma would is a good one.

这这能将实验室的发现带给需要它的人类。

That that brings, you know, lab discoveries to humans who need it.

我对阿尔茨海默症领域的淀粉样斑块干预特别感兴趣。

I'm I'm really interested in particularly in that kind of Alzheimer's space amyloid plaque intervention.

现在有一种针对淀粉样斑块的单克隆抗体已经在不少国家获批使用。

So there's a monoclonal antibody against amyloid plaques that's approved in quite a few countries now.

它的效果并不显著，这非常耐人寻味。

It's not very effective, which is really interesting.

这彻底颠覆了阿尔茨海默症的淀粉样斑块理论。

So that turns the whole amyloid plaque theory of Alzheimer's on its head.

你知道吗？

You know?

当年我学习神经科学时，人们还认为斑块和缠结是导致阿尔茨海默症的原因。

Back when I was studying neuroscience, it was thought that plaques and tangles caused Alzheimer's disease.

现在逐渐浮现的观点可能是——这些其实是引发阿尔茨海默症的其他病变的结果。

I think the picture that's emerging now is probably it's a consequence of other changes that cause Alzheimer's disease.

所以对我来说，这才是最让我着迷的研究前沿。

So to me, that's the frontier I most interested.

如果我能重来实验室时光，我想我会选择这个领域工作。

If I could have my time again in the lab, that's where I would work I think.

是啊，这确实令人兴奋。

Yeah, that is exciting.

我记得我们采访过UCF的Kuminobu Sugaya博士，

And I remember we had the interview with Doctor.

他是UCF的教授，他说很久以前在他学术生涯刚起步时就认为淀粉样斑块并非病因。

Kuminobu Sugaya here at UCF, professor at UCF, and he was saying that a long time ago when he was even just starting his academic journey, he was saying that amyloid plaque is not the cause.

现在发现自己是正确的，他非常欣慰。

And now he's just so happy discovering that, you know, he was right.

但当时没多少人真正相信这个观点。

But at that time, not not many people really believed in this.

科学界常有这种情况发生。

And this is this happens in science.

确实如此。

Yes.

有时我们坚信自己是对的，但别人可能完全不认同

Sometimes we say something and we believe that we are right, but people may not agree with us at all.

而经过这么多年后，我们终于得到了证实

And, after so many years, we we get this confirmation.

这也引出了另一个问题——我们该如何把握坚持己见与因他人看法而放弃之间的界限？

So that also opens another question, I think, in, you know, where is that line where we should still believe in ourselves and in our ideas and keep that belief versus giving up, you know, because of opinions of other people?

你人生中有过这样的经历吗？曾坚信某个观点却缺乏当时证据支持的情况？

So did you get did you have any experience like this throughout your life where you you really had certain idea, but there was not evidence, no evidence at that point to support it?

没有

No.

算不上有

Not really.

没有

No.

确实没有

Not not really.

但我能想到另一个非常有趣的例子。

But I can think of another really interesting example.

我本科时曾非常明确地被告知，大脑不可能产生新的神经元。

So when I did my undergrad, I remember very distinctly being told that there can be no new neurons in your brain.

婴儿在发育的最初几年会经历神经突触修剪过程，之后神经元数量就终身固定了。

You know, you go through that you go you wait as a baby, there's pruning a that goes on as babies develop in the first couple of years, and then that number of neurons is set for the rest of your life.

如果大脑受损，或遭受毒品酒精等伤害神经元的行为，它们可能会与其他神经元建立连接，但绝不可能生长出新的神经元。

So if you damage your brain or or anything like drug or alcohol abuse that damages neurons, that they can maybe connect with other neurons, but you can't grow there's no new neurons.

这个理论如今已被彻底颠覆。

That has been completely turned on its head.

我们现在知道大脑中存在神经干细胞，成年神经发生是真实存在的。

We now know that there are stem cells neuronal stem cells in the brain, and that there is such a thing as adult neurogenesis.

新的神经细胞可以诞生。

New nerve cells can be born.

是的，我们见证了这些科学突破，我觉得这很酷。

So, yeah, we see these innovations, and I think it's cool.

我真的很喜欢看着知识不断演进和增长。

I just love watching knowledge evolve and grow.

是的。

Yes.

我在你身上看到了这种热情。

And I see that passion in you.

所以这种热情确实很明显，是的，你确实拥有它。

So it and it's it really shows, yes, that you have it.

非常感谢你，阿曼达。

Thank you so much, Amanda.

如果我们的听众想了解更多关于你的工作、这个新产品或你本人的信息，想与你联系，最好的方式是什么？

If our listeners want to learn more about what you do, about this new product, about you, connect with you, what would be the best way to do that?

哦，那太好了。

Oh, that would be great.

我非常乐意。

I would love that.

我在LinkedIn上活跃

So I'm on LinkedIn.

在LinkedIn上搜索我，Amanda Wiggins

Look me up on LinkedIn, Amanda Wiggins.

你也可以浏览我们补充剂系列的产品网站：www.cgpmax.com

You could also check out our product website for our supplement range, which is www.cgpmax.com.

这两个方式应该是最便捷的，我非常期待听众们的联系

Those would probably be the best two ways, and I'd love to hear from any listeners.

那太好了。

That would be great.

是的。

Yes.

我们会把这些信息添加到播客笔记中，这样听众就能查看这个网站并与你联系。

And we will add this information into our podcast notes so that our listeners would be able to look at this website and also connect with you.

真是太棒了。

So that's wonderful.

我真心感谢这次鼓舞人心的对话，以及你分享的非传统职业道路故事——一位神经科学家的经历，我认为这对听众们非常有启发意义。

I truly appreciate this inspiring conversation and your story of a not traditional path, yes, of a neuroscientist, which I think is very important for people to hear about.

是的。

Yes.

确实存在多种方式来运用你的知识，而你以出色的方式实现了这一点。

That there are different ways to apply your knowledge and in different ways, which you did wonderfully.

或许有些问题我没问到，但你仍想与听众分享的内容，现在正是最佳时机。

Maybe there is something that I didn't ask you but you still want to share with our listeners, that would be a perfect time.

还有什么要补充的。

Still something.

哦，我想最后的结语是：梅琳娜，神经科学是最棒的领域。

Oh, I guess my closing thoughts are, Melina, neuroscience is all the best.

尽管投身其中吧！如果实验室工作不适合你，就寻找其他方式应用这些知识。因为对大脑的热爱、对思维本质的探索激情，以及解决痴呆症等现实脑部问题的使命——只管勇往直前。

Just jump in there and you know, if it's not working for you, being stuck in a lab, find a way to apply that knowledge in a different way because, you know, the love of the brain, the passion to understand what makes us think and what makes us who we are, and to solve real world problems like dementia and many, many other brain problems, just get in there, you know.

你们的技能和知识在不同领域都具有巨大价值。

Your skills and knowledge are hugely valuable across different domains.

所以，如果你不太适合实验室工作，别让这打击你。

So, yeah, I guess if you're not quite suited to lab work, don't let that put you off.

找到另一种应用方式。

Find a different way to apply it.

这就是我最想传达的核心观点。

That would be my keen take home.

非常感谢你，阿曼达。

Thank you so much, Amanda.

这次交谈非常愉快。

It's been a great pleasure.

我和所有听众都祝愿你工作顺利，相信你未来将对人们的健康产生重大影响。

I and all our listeners are wishing you all the best in your work and I'm sure you will make a huge impact on people's health moving forward.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢邀请我参加这次访谈。

Thank you so much for having me.

米莱娜，这真是我的荣幸。

It's been a real pleasure, Milena.

保重。

Take care.

亲爱的NeuroCareers播客听众们，感谢你们与我及各位杰出嘉宾共同踏上这段探索神经科学与神经技术职业发展的精彩旅程。

Dear NeuroCareers podcast listeners, thank you for joining me and my incredible guests on this exciting journey into careers in neuroscience and neurotechnologies.

希望这些将突破性构想转化为实际影响的故事能给予你们启发。

I hope you've been inspired by the stories of those turning groundbreaking ideas into impactful realities.

若您需要更多关于推进神经科学职业发展的指导，可预约与我的免费咨询——我是播客主持人K博士，同时也是神经方法研究所的职业教练，这是唯一专注于神经科技领域专业人士需求的职业服务机构。

If you are looking for more guidance on advancing your neuro career, book a free consultation with me, doctor k, your podcast host and neuro careers coach at the Institute of Neuro Approaches, the only career service dedicated specifically to the needs of professionals in neurotech.

让我们携手迈向您神经科学生涯成功的下一步。

Let's take the next step toward your neurocareer success together.

除免费咨询外，神经方法研究所还提供多种旨在助您在神经科技领域蓬勃发展的服务。

In addition to free consultations, the Institute of Neuro approaches offers a variety of services designed to help you thrive in neurotech.

首先是职业发展规划服务。

First, professional development planning.