安吉拉·雷纳：税务纠纷持续发酵！

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BBC Sounds，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

欢迎来到苏格兰。

Welcome to Scotland.

谢谢。你。这这这真是个相当不错的播客小隔间啊。

Thank you. You. This is this is quite the podcasting little booth you've got here.

听说你要来，我们就建了这个录音棚。绝对没错。绝对没错。还满意吗？

Well, we heard you were coming, we built the studio Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Are you satisfied?

老实说，我觉得这比伦敦那边那些隔间高级多了。太棒了。

Well, I think this is a cut above the the the the ones down the down the road in London, to be quite honest. This is great.

今天真是有趣的一天。你和首相在一起。嗯。我和苏格兰首席大臣在一起，现在我们俩都在这期Newscast节目里。Newscast。

And it's been an interesting day. You've been with the prime minister. Mhmm. I've been with Scotland's first minister, and we're both here on this episode of Newscast. Newscast.

BBC出品的Newscast。

Newscast from the BBC.

我们的小伙子斯利默·梅在教室里上小提琴课。

Our boy Slimmer May in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

我是班上的告密者。

I was the tattletale in the class.

能请你道个歉吗？

Can I have an apology, please?

我几乎不信任任何人。

I trust almost nobody.

爸爸有时候不得不说些强硬的话。

That daddy has to sometimes do strong language.

下次在莫斯科见。

Next time in Moscow.

我灌满了一个没有盐分的鲁鲁。

I filled a lulu with no salulu.

带我去唐尼街。左转。去参观一下。

Take me down to Downey Street. Left. Go have a tour.

天哪。你好。我是格拉斯哥的詹姆斯。

Blimey. Hello. It's James in Glasgow.

我是格拉斯哥的克里斯。是的。

And it's Chris in Glasgow. Yes.

不，我一直都是那样睡的。

No. I've been sleeping like that.

我太习惯了，差点脱口而出‘在威斯敏斯特’。是的，你懂吧？但其实不是。

I'm so used I still nearly said in Westminster. Yes. You know? But no.

挺好的。你确实如此。本期节目后续，你将听到我和亚历克斯·福赛斯与英格兰及威尔士绿党新领袖扎克·波兰斯基的对话。但首先，克里斯，为什么首相——连带你也...嗯...我并非暗示你是首相的附属品。

It's good. You are. And later in this episode, you'll hear Alex Forsyth and me chatting to Zach Polansky, the new leader of the Green Party of England and Wales. But first, Chris, why is the prime minister, and by extension you Mhmm. I'm not suggesting you're an extension of the prime minister.

不过我确实花了大量时间跟着他到处跑。

But I spent a fair amount of time following him around.

所以跟着他...你们两位为何都来到格拉斯哥？

So him around. Why are you both here in Glasgow?

按唐宁街的说法，首相想为这笔英国政府与挪威达成的交易——在克莱德河畔格拉斯哥建造军舰——争取更多新闻曝光。这虽是周日宣布的旧闻，但确实是重大事件。从新闻价值而言，戴着记者帽的我必须承认这算新料。对首相而言，这是绝佳的宣传题材：纯粹的经济利好，赢得国际军购合同的胜利，尤其对苏格兰该地区经济及更广泛供应链意义重大。

So he wanted to, if you like, I think as Downing Street saw it, get enough sort of newsbang for its buck, for this deal that's been done between the British government and its Norwegian counterparts for the building of warships on the Clyde in Glasgow. Now this was announced on Sunday, and it made news on Sunday, but it is a big deal. I mean, in genuine news terms, as it with my sort of journalist hat on, it it was quite a new story. If you're a prime minister, it's a great story to go and talk about because it's kind of an alloyed good news. Economically, a sense of winning an international race for these contracts, particularly important, for the, for the economy of of of this part of Scotland and the wider supply chain.

所以他希望放大这笔交易的政治效应。此外还想在媒体视线之外——或者说叠加其上——接触工人群体。我跟着他进了食堂，他体谅地说工人们午餐时大概不想听政客高谈阔论。但他仍强调这不仅关乎工人家庭未来，更涉及英国国家安全，以及未来数年为挪威提供价值100亿英镑舰艇的合约。当然他也想讨论小船偷渡和非法移民问题。

So I think he felt like he wanted to get a bit more bang for his buck out of that. And then also do something, you know, away from not away from the gaze of us journalistically, but on top of that, which is meeting the workers. So, you know, he went in I followed him into the canteen, you know, and the he kind of acknowledged, you know, he probably wanna talk amongst yourself while you're having a bit of a lunch break, not listening to a politician joning on. But he was doing the whole thing about, you know, not only securing their their future, their family's future, but their their place in in The UK's national security, but then also this £10,000,000,000 deal for the provision of these ships for Norway, in the coming years. So that's why he was here as well as wanting to talk about, small boats and irregular migration.

而在我获邀采访他到最终成行期间，另有事件爆发了。

And then in the time between me being offered the chance to come and interview him and us deciding we would do it and all the rest of it, something else was happening.

没错。原定议程被周三新闻焦点完全掩盖——目前全英媒体都在热议副首相兼住房大臣安吉拉·雷纳承认少缴印花税（本质是房产购置税）一事，涉及其在东萨塞克斯郡霍夫所购房产。雷纳称这个‘错误’源于法律建议未充分考虑其复杂处境——包括为有特殊教育需求儿子设立的信托基金。

Yes. The purpose was somewhat overshadowed by the story we were discussing on Wednesday's newscast, and indeed, it's being discussed very widely across all media in The UK at the moment, that the deputy prime minister and housing secretary Angela Rayner has admitted underpaying stamp duty. It's property tax, purchase tax, basically, on a property she bought in Hove in East Sussex. And Angela Rayner said that the, and I quote, mistake Mhmm. Arose because of legal advice that she said did not properly take account of her complex situation, which involved a trust set up for her son who has special educational needs.

她已主动提请...我总记不住这个头衔...‘大臣行为独立顾问’介入调查。

And she's referred herself to the I never get this right. Independent adviser on ministerial standards.

是的。顺便好奇问一下，那个职位名称大约六个月前变更了，所以以前是围绕利益相关命名的。

Yeah. And that job title, just curiously, changed about six months ago, which is why it used to be about interests.

哦，这绝对是我这么做的原因。

Oh, that's definitely why I do it.

对吧？这就是你现成的借口。

Right? There's your there's your excuse there.

总之，你与首相进行了对话，而你的核心提问线索围绕那项调查展开——如果发现某位部长违反部长守则，他是否会将其解职。

Anyway, you spoke to the prime minister, and and your key line of questioning was about that investigation and whether he would sack a minister who was found to have broken the ministerial code.

没错。因为你要知道，在进行这类采访时，你会思考：如何充分利用与首相相处的七八分钟？你不断预判他可能对各种问题的回应，同时回顾他过往的言论——包括担任首相前，当不同政见的部长们陷入类似困境时他的立场。

Yeah. Because so why did you know, when when you're doing an interview like this, you think, right. How do I make the most of my sort of seven or eight minutes with the prime minister? And you're constantly thinking about what is he likely to say in answer to various questions that you might ask. And, also, what has he said in the past, including before he was prime minister, when ministers of a different different political persuasion were in similar kind of Pickles.

棘手局面。是的。通常遵循程序的首相会推诿说'已有流程在进行，我们等待结果'。你或许觉得这完全合理。

Tangles. Yeah. Now a prime minister with a process will usually defer to the process and say, oh, well, something's underway. Let's wait for that. And and, you know, you might say that's perfectly reasonable.

若你信奉正当程序——可以说正当程序是我们社会处理众多事务的基石——这确实合理。他已委托议会道德顾问劳里·马格努斯调查此事。但保守党内部也有人认为：根据已知事实，你本可直接解职副首相或让她辞职。

If you believe in due process, and arguably due process is part of our is part of our society's approach to so many things, that is reasonable. And he's asked Laurie Magnus, the parliamentary the the the ministerial kind of ethics adviser to to look into this. Now there are those, the Conservatives included. So you don't need to do that. Just look at what we know, and you could sack the deputy prime minister or she could resign.

总之独立顾问正在开展工作。我想追问的关键不在于等待结论，而是：若顾问认定她违反部长行为准则，你是否会留任她？耐人寻味的是，尽管这曾是他为他人设立的红线，他却拒绝明确表态。

Anyway, the independent adviser is doing his work. The question I wanted to get to was not so much that. Let's wait for that conclusion. But if the adviser concludes that she has broken the ministerial code, the kind of rule book for behavior as a minister, then would you keep would you keep him her on in the job? And, curiously, despite the fact that in the past, that has been a bar he has set for others, he wouldn't say yes.

我们稍后会简要收听。不过在播放前，你追问了他多少次？

Well, we'll have a quick listen. But just before we do, how many times did you ask him?

我...你猜怎么着？

I well, you know what?

我 我

I I

我其实没有特意计数，也没给自己设限，但确实注意到某新闻网站声称是五次。好吧，

I hadn't actually kept count nor had I set myself a limit, but I did notice on one newspaper website there was a claim that it was five. Well,

我们来听听看。

let's have a listen.

如果安吉拉·雷纳违反了部长守则，你会解雇她吗？安吉拉·雷纳已主动提请独立顾问调查。根据我的经验，他提交给我的报告将会非常全面。

If Angela Rayner has broken the ministerial code, will you sack her? Well, Angela Rayner has referred herself to independent adviser. My experience is he will be comprehensive in the report that he gives me.

他会很快完成。

He'll be quick.

会很快，

Will be quick,

这正是我所期待的。

and that's what I'm expecting.

就这一两天？

Next day or so?

我无法确定，但我认为他会很快完成。在这个特殊情况下，这会是件好事。当然，我会如你所料，仔细审阅他提交的任何报告。

Well, I can't say, but I think he will be quick. So I think that would be a good thing in this particular case. Obviously, I will look very carefully, as you'd expect, at whatever report he puts in front of me.

你这不是在含糊其辞吗？你现在的语气就像鲍里斯·约翰逊过去那样。你无法直接回答如果部长确实违反守则，是否会遭到解雇的问题。

Aren't you equivocating here? You're you're sounding like Boris Johnson used to do. You can't answer the direct question of whether a minister who had broken the ministerial code, if that's the case, would be sacked.

那么，让我指出关键差异。首先，我强化了规范准则和独立顾问的作用。其次，我坚持认为，若出现任何问题，任何部长都应主动提交至相关流程接受审查。

Well, let me point out the key differences. Firstly, I strengthened the code and the role of the independent adviser. Secondly, I insist that if there's any issue, any minister refers themselves to the process they are.

第三，若发生违规行为，你必须承担后果

Thirdly, that if there's a breach that you sacrifice

我的意思是，他现在正在履行职责，我需要让他完成工作。但这与鲍里斯·约翰逊时期的局面截然不同，

Well, all I'm saying is he's doing his job now, and I need to let him finish that job. But this is a million miles away from where we were under Boris Johnson,

当时根本没有...您就不能明确表示如果部长违反行为准则就会被解雇吗？而您没有这样说？我想说的是

where there was simply no could you not just explicitly say if a minister has broken the ministerial code, they'll be sacked? Well And you're not saying that? What I'm saying

现在有明确的处理程序。

is there's a clear procedure.

确实。我们新闻主播可以自行评判这些问答内容。

Well, yes. We newscasters can judge those questions and answers for themselves.

是的。关于接下来进展，有两点需要向新闻主播说明。正如首相所言，我们很快会收到道德顾问的结论。我认为首相将迅速对建议作出裁决，可能在周五——也就是明天——即周末之前。

Yeah. And I think what we're gonna get next there's two things to to mention to newscasters on this. So, as the prime minister was saying there, we're gonna get an answer pretty soon from this, ethics adviser. And I think the prime minister will then offer his judgment on that recommendation pretty quickly, possibly on Friday, tomorrow. In other words, before the, the weekend.

对克里斯琴娜而言这是噩梦，因为有什么合理理由能让她留任？根据顾问结论或许存在理由，但未必能让所有人信服。如果她离职，将以何种形式？她后续会如何表态？由谁接替？关键还在于，她是否会自愿辞去工党副领袖职务——这是由党员直选的职位，不同于其政府职务（英格兰住房大臣兼副首相）由基尔·斯塔默任命。还有个最新动态，詹姆斯，就在我们录制前几小时...

And for Kirstjomma, it's a nightmare because does it what's the plausible case he makes for her staying? Now there might be a case depending on what this adviser concludes, but it won't be necessarily a particularly easy one for some to accept. And if she goes, under what circumstances, what does she then say and do, and who comes to replace that? And then also, crucially, does she volunteer to stand down as the deputy leader of the Labour Party, which she's directly elected to by the party members, as opposed to her government jobs that are in the gift of Kia Starmah, which is housing secretary for England and deputy prime minister. And then the added little twist, which has got an an extra bit of detail, James, in the last few hours as we record it

尽管如此...我们当时正在看六点新闻，您也在节目中，看起来您似乎...抱歉打断，但您当时表现得像是刚发现某些...感觉有点不太自然。

about all the same. We were watching right. Sorry to interrupt. But we were watching the 06:00 news, and you were on it, and it seemed you'd really some you know, there's a bit of, like I've just found that a bit. It didn't seem you'd really No.

事实上确实如此。当我从BBC苏格兰分部出来，站在克莱德河畔准备做六点新闻的现场结语时，我们优秀的团队成员比利·肯博——一位杰出记者——发信息告知：我们收到了房产交易公司的声明，该公司负责处理霍夫公寓买卖事宜。他们声明称'我们不提供税务建议，不涉及信托业务'，并表示'我们秉持诚信原则，依据所获全部信息行事'。

Well, I really had. I I mean, literally, as I walked out of BBC Scotland here to go and stand on the banks of the Clyde to do the live little report at the end of my report on the 06:00 news. One of our brilliant team, a guy called Billy Kembo, an outstanding journalist, texted me and said, we've got a statement from the conveyancing firm, the property firm that handled the whole business of the transaction around the purchase of this flat in Hove. And this firm has said, we don't give tax advice, and we don't deal with trusts. And they also say we acted in good faith, and we acted on the basis of all of the information we were given.

换言之，他们采取行动是为了保护自己的职业声誉，因为所有这一切的一个结论是她得到了糟糕的建议，而他们则在声明，不要指责我们提供了糟糕的建议。我们是出于善意且行事得当的。据我们了解，安吉拉·雷纳还咨询过其他几位信托领域的专家。至于这些专家是

In other words, they are doing something to protect their own professional reputation because one conclusion in all of this is that she was given duff advice, and they're saying, well, don't accuse us of duff advice. We acted in good faith and and acted properly. Now our understanding is there were a couple of other experts in trusts that Angela Rayner also consulted. Now whether

还是会计师之类的？

or sort of accountants?

我们不得而知，而且他们的措辞非常谨慎。

We don't know, and they've picked their wording very carefully.

今早我注意到，人们都在说她咨询过专业人士。

I noticed this morning, people were saying she'd consulted people.

是的。所以这部分关于‘咨询过谁’的内容确实如此。但这一细节仍不明确。不过我们现在看到，英格兰东南部一家当地聘请的房产过户公司已经发表了声明。

Yes. So that that element sort of people. Exactly. So that element of it is still unclear. But we've now had this conveyancing firm in the Southeast Of England hired locally saying what they've said.

我们还了解到，雷纳家族曾雇佣一家公司为阿什顿的房产设立信托，该公司声明‘安杰拉已不再是我们的客户’。换句话说，我们并未参与相关建议。因为记者们一直在拼凑这些交易涉及哪些机构。一旦特定公司被证实参与其中，显然它们有动机捍卫声誉并表示：请等一下。

We've also had the firm that the Rayner family had hired for the establishment of the trust connected to the property in Ashton and the line saying Anzarena is no longer a client of ours. In other words, we didn't. We weren't involved in that advice. Because you've had this piecing together by journalists of who was involved in these transactions. And once it's become apparent that particular companies were involved, clearly, they have a motivation to defend their reputation and say, well, hang on a minute.

我们的行为完全符合规范，基于当时获得的信息——表面看来这让安杰拉的处境更尴尬。但我们尚未掌握全貌，我认为明智的做法是...

We've behaved exactly as we should have done and on the basis of the information we were given, which on the face of it appears to make things more awkward for Angeloreno. But we don't have the full picture and the I think it's advisable.

公开澄清。虽然不想纠结于此，但核心问题在于：安吉拉·雷纳究竟是运气不佳——她确实努力想做正确的事并缴纳应缴税款，还是她未尽全力，让自己面临伪善的指控，尤其是作为住房大臣？我是说，

To come out. I I suppose this not to dwell on this, but the central question here being, look, was Angela Rayner simply unlucky and she really tried hard to do the right thing and pay the right amount of tax, or did she not make enough effort and leave herself open to allegations of hypocrisy, especially as a housing minister? I mean,

本质上就是如此。保守党现在提出的论点是——我已核实过这一点且属实——如果你谷歌‘购买第二套房产’且首套房因未成年子女置于信托中，gov.uk官网（她作为政府二号人物所管辖的网站）会明确显示，税务机构会将新增房产视为第二套。换句话说，你需要按更高税率缴纳房产税。

that's basically That is basically it. And and the conservatives are now making the argument, and I've double checked this, and it's right, that if if you if you sort of Google buying a second property if you've got a first property that's in a trust because of a child under the age of 18, it basically says pretty boldly, and and it's not difficult to find, on gov.uk, the very website that the government of which she is the number two figure within hosts, that in that circumstance, the tax authority would regard the additional property as a second one. In other words, you'd be liable to the higher rate of the property tax.

好吧，如你所见，我们终将查明真相。不过在此期间，我们收到了许多新闻主播的留言。有趣的是，这件事似乎引发了五台直播中我认识的多位人士的强烈反响，今天大家都在讨论。

Well, as you see, we're we're gonna find out. We have, though, in the meantime, had a lot of messages from newscasters. Actually, interesting. It's one that seems to have touched off a lot of reactions of people I know on five live. People were talking about today.

亚历克斯今天也在街头与人讨论此事。我们收到了大量新闻主播的留言，非常感谢大家的反馈。现在让我们快速浏览一下——

Alex was talking to people in in the streets today about it as well. And we've had loads of newscasters, so thank you very much for all your messages. And let's just I'll just rattle through

那会很有趣。其中一些内容。

That'll be interesting. Some of them.

海伦，我并非完全认同她的观点——显然是指安吉拉·雷纳。虽然不赞同她的所有政治立场，但我们确实对她怀有某种敬意，而她似乎被出卖了。我说的是新闻主播安吉拉（不是雷纳），你好安吉拉，她表示所有相关信息都在gov.uk官网上，特别标注了关于儿童的内容——

Helen, I don't agree with all her, as in Angela Rayner, obviously. I don't agree with all her political views, but we do have a certain admiration for her, and she seems to have been sold up the river. Angela, presumably not Rayner, newscaster Angela, I mean, hello, Angela, said all the relevant information is on the gov.uk website, and it specifically indicates information about children and

如果这是安吉拉·雷纳发的信息，那就是双重虚张声势了，对吧？是的。这

It'd be a double bluff if it was Angela Raynor sending that message, wouldn't it? Yeah. It

确实如此。罗杰发邮件说，英格兰和威尔士提高印花税本是为遏制度假胜地的二套房购买，却将残疾人家庭保障措施混为一谈，这很荒谬。吉尔留言说：虽然我非常理解安吉拉·雷纳设立信托保护子女权益的初衷——我们也为患严重精神疾病的小女儿在遗嘱中设立了信托，但吉尔强调信托的设立原因并不重要。

it would. Roger emailed to say increased stamp duty in England and Wales is designed to deter second home ownership at the expense of provision for local needs in popular holiday destinations, yet it's being used to also regard family provision for the disabled in the same light. This is nonsense. And Jill messaged to say, while I really emp empathize with Angela Rayner and completely understand why she and her ex husband have set up a trust to protect their child's future interests, we have set up a trust in our wills for our younger daughter who has a serious mental illness for exactly the same reasons to protect her future after we die. However, Jill says, the reason for the trust being established is not relevant.

嗯。关键在于印花税相关法律事实。补充吉尔的看法：如果她在个人财务上犯过严重错误，怎能保证工作中不重蹈覆辙？这就涉及个人能力与

Mhmm. The facts relating to the laws on stamp duty are what is central. And just to finish Jill's point, if she did make serious mistakes with her personal finances, what risks are that that she might make similar mistakes in her day job? So then you get someone's competence and

没错。

Yeah.

以及他们的诚信问题。完全同意。

And and their and their candor. Completely.

完全同意。就像我们今天在霍夫公寓周边看到的涂鸦——虽然不确定这代表多少人观点——

Completely. And and when you see, as we have seen today, you know, graffiti popping up in and around Hove where this flat is, and I'm not saying that this is representative of who knows how broadly this is a a view that is held,

但动机

but motives of

他们的动机、身份来历等等，都是为了在各种墙面上涂鸦失败。谁知道他们是不是本地人？这就是我那么说的意思。是的。但人们情绪激烈到在墙上涂写‘安吉拉·雷纳是逃税者’这类内容，而这还只是指控。

the motives and who they were and where they came from and all and all of that to in order to in order to scrape scrape defeat on various walls. Who knows if they're local? That's what I meant by that. Yeah. But people sufficiently passionate that they're painting things like Angela Rayner, a tax evader, and that's an allegation.

明白吗？让我们看看，你知道的，让我们看看最终结论如何。是的。是的。当你面临这类指控时，担任副首相的可行性有多大？

You know? Let's see, you know, let's let's see what is concluded. Yeah. Yeah. How viable is it for you to be a deputy prime minister when you're subject to that kind of thing?

为什么你觉得这件事如此触动人们的神经？是因为涉及税收吗？是因为印花税特别不受欢迎？因为她是住房大臣？还是因为人们受够了生活成本危机或对政府感到失望？

And why do you think it is so touchy this with people? Is it because it's tax? Is it because stamp duty is particularly unpopular? Is it because she's the housing secretary? Is it because people are sick of the cost of living crisis or and or fed up with the government?

我是说，

I mean,

我认为这些都是可能的原因。所有这些因素都有。这是可以理解的。虽然我知道事情本身相当复杂，但归根结底是有人承认自己当初没有缴纳现在认为应该缴纳的税款。从这个角度看，公众反应是可以理解的。

I think it's all menu of options there. Sort of all of those things. It's understandable. I mean, I know it's quite complicated in its part, but it's ultimately about somebody admitting they didn't pay as much tax as they now acknowledge they should have done. So in that sense, it is understandable.

你看，住房大臣因住房问题陷入困境，而副首相在一个增税的政府里被指纳税不足——这还是她自己的说法。但我也始终意识到事情的另一面：如果我们跳出这个具体案例，从更广阔的社会环境来看，特别是对我们记者而言，像我这样从事日常政治新闻报道的人，这关乎辩论的文化氛围，以及这种氛围对吸引人才进入公共生活的影响。这绝不是要为确有不当行为的人开脱，也不应阻止对公众人物合理的监督与批评——他们本就该接受问责。

You know, the housing secretary in a pickle about housing, and then the deputy prime minister in a tax raising government not paying it in an enough tax, and that's her saying that. There is a there there is a flip side that I'm always conscious of. If we take a step back from this particular case, which is the wider environment as a society, and then also for us as journalists, and particularly for someone like me in the business of daily political journalism, around the culture and the climate of debate and the extent to which that would be appealing for people to come into public life. Now that's not for a second to condone someone who is found to have, this be the case, you know, wrongdoing or whatever. Neither should it ever stop legitimate scrutiny or indeed criticism from some of public figures who should be held to account.

但更宏观的问题是：竞选公职必然伴随严格审查，但一个局外人若怀有治国抱负或希望加入执政团队，目睹当前环境后，还会认为这是理性选择吗？毕竟从集体利益出发，我们本应让公众视从政为崇高使命。

But there is a wider question about the extent to which the particular realities of seeking elected office, of course, come with high scrutiny. But would an outsider looking in who might aspire to to to high office and to want to run the country or be part of a party that seeks to win an election to run the country, think that that is a rational course of action when collectively you would want people to think that that's a noble calling.

与此相关的是——需要澄清的是，我想你也在表达相同观点——我们并非在评论安吉拉·雷纳本人

And related to that, and and to be clear, and I think you're saying the same thing here, we're not commenting on Angela Raynor

不是。

No.

不。但总体而言，政治领域与其他行业的道德标准差异确实是个有趣的问题。一个人在职场中可能因任何性质的错误被解雇或被迫辞职，而政界的容错空间...当然这么说可能有些蠢，某些错误确实该被开除。我只是好奇这个标准是否历来如此，或许也理应如此。是的。

No. On on but in general terms, I do think it's an interesting question as to the bar in politics versus other walks of life. And to what extent one might be fired from a job or be forced to resign from a job for making a mistake of any nature, you know, and, of course, I mean, this is a stupid thing to say in a way because some things you're gonna be fired for. Sure. And I I just wonder if the bar is is is and always has been and perhaps necessarily should be Yes.

对于治理国家的人来说要求更高。是的，比经营企业的人更高。

Higher for the people running the country Yes. Than c, someone running a business.

确实如此。而且，你还会有那种模糊地带，在其他行业可能不太常见——再次声明，我们暂且抛开这个具体事件——就是你在私人生活或个人财务上可能犯的错误，与你执行专业工作的能力之间的界限。当然，在政治领域，因为民选职务的本质核心之一就是对品格的审查。

Yeah. Quite. And and and also that you get that blurring which might be less likely to happen in other walks of life between what might be and, again, I'm detaching ourselves from this particular incident. What might be a mistake in your private life or your fine your personal finances and your capacity to do your professional job. Now, of course, in politics, because a key part of the whole nature of elected office, is it is scrutiny of character.

这是对判断力的审查。是对事物分配时间和资金的审查。从这个意义上说，审查自然会到来。而这次事件，因为它本质上如此容易理解，我认为几乎任何时期的任何部长遇到这类事情都会陷入棘手境地。所以，是的，审查当然存在，诸如此类。

It is scrutiny of judgment. It is scrutiny of, you know, the the the the time and money allocated to things. So in that sense, of course, the scrutiny would come. And in this, because it is so basically easy to understand, any minister, I think, pretty much any time would find themselves in a in a real old picker with this sort of stuff. So, yeah, of course, the scrutiny's there and all the rest of it.

但我确实认为，应该从这个具体案例后退几步，去思考那个更宏观的问题——关于公共生活的吸引力或其他方面。我觉得像我这样的人应该时刻把这个问题放在心上。

But I just do I think to take several steps back from this particular case, that that wider thought about the about the how appealing or otherwise public life might be. It's I I I think it's something that someone like me should always have, in in our in my mind.

是的。听起来，克里斯，就像你说的，我们很快就会知道答案

Yeah. Now well, it sounds like, Chris, as you say, we're gonna find out one

不管怎样

way or the other

很快了。我们还收到了新闻主播们关于风筝集合名词的投稿。哦，是的。

pretty soon. Now we've also had contributions from newscasters on the collective noun for kites. Oh, yes.

这是之前一期节目里热烈的讨论话题，对吧？

This was a hearty discussion on a previous edition, wasn't it?

当时我们在预算背景下讨论过。收到的建议包括来自里卡德的'一串风筝'，谢谢，还有'一窝沸腾的'，'一

Which we spoke about in the context of the budget. And suggestions include a string of kites from Rickard, thank you, and a wake, awake of a kettle, a

群'，'一阵'。'一阵风筝'这个说法不错。

husk, a sore. A sore of kites is nice.

或者在新播客《罗宾的最爱》里，一个旋转木马。风筝的旋转木马。风筝的旋转木马。

Or at Newscast, Robin's favorite, a carousel. A carousel of kites. A carousel of kites.

你看，这一串风筝让我想起了我小时候的风筝，线总是缠在树上，或者落在什么地方打结。

You see, the string of kites just reminds me of my sort of childhood kite where the string would all get knotted up around some tree that it's been that you've landed in or whatever.

对。你以前用的是那种老式的单线球吗？

Right. Did you have an old fashioned one string ball of string?

线球。风筝本身是三角形的，在一张黑白照片上。风筝是黄色的，带着绿色的三角形尾巴，绑在一个蓝色塑料手柄上，在约克郡的大风中你得拼命抓住它。那根细得不可思议的线，你一次只能放出一截，然后你就会想，天啊，希望它别掉到那棵树上去，或者小心避开电线之类的东西。

Ball of string. It was a triangle, the the shape of the kite itself on a it's a black and picture. The kite was yellow with a green tail in the shape of a triangle and on a blue plastic thing that you had to hold on to for dear life in the Yorkshire Gales. And then this string that was impossibly thin that you then let out one rung at a time, and then you're thinking, oh god. I hope it doesn't come down in that tree or, you know, being careful around power lines and all that kind of stuff.

是啊，是啊。这段记忆非常鲜活。

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a very vivid memory.

山谷中的狂风。没错。说到天气，你今天采访首相时真的下大雨了吗？

Gales in the Dales. Yes. And talking of weather, it was it really chucking it down today when you were interviewing the prime minister?

我们经历了四季，不是一天之内，而是二十分钟内。我们排队准备在外面的在建军舰旁采访首相。当时天很蓝，还挺暖和的，我甚至觉得该涂点防晒霜。

We got all the seasons, not so much in a day as in twenty minutes. So we were lining up to interview the prime minister next to this warship under construction outside. Blue sky. It's quite warm, actually. I thought I should have a bit of sun cream on.

但你能看到那个巨大的天气系统正在逼近。

But you could see this absolutely colossal weather system.

就像一大片雷雨云。我从爱丁堡开车回来，刚见过首席部长约翰·斯威尼。我从没想过这地方会...

It was like this massive thundercloud. I was driving back from where Edinburgh where I'd been seeing the first minister John Sweeney. I I I never thought this is ripe for

...适合政府。我不知道会发生什么。我记得在他成为首相前，我在伦敦一个屋顶上采访他时也遇到过同样的情况。开始采访时天色就不妙，结束时我们浑身湿透的样子简直荒唐。

a government. I don't know what's gonna happen here. And I was thinking, I remember interviewing the prime minister before he was prime minister on a roof in London where the same happened. We started an interview, and it looked threatening. And by the end of it, we looked absurd because we were soaked through.

总之他出现了，在摄像机开拍前他对我说的第一句话是：'这次不会像上次那样我俩都像落汤鸡吧？'我说，然后我们正准备开始时，突然下起雨来，我们立刻转移到船侧几层楼高的金属楼梯间下一层，在遮雨棚下完成了这次采访。

Anyway, he turns up, and his first thing he said to me before the cameras were rolling was, is it gonna be like that time we both looked like drowned rats? I said, and, anyway, we start we're about to start. We waited. It rain kicked in and all of sudden, we moved one floor down on this metal stairwell up the side of the ship, which is obviously several stories high. Did this interview undercover.

你仍能听见雨水从楼梯间边缘滴落的声音。采访结束后我对他说：'首相先生，整个采访过程中，我从您肩膀后面看到的全是湛蓝天空。'结果十分钟后...

It's still you can hear the rain sort of dripping off the sides of the stairwell. And throughout the interview, I said to him afterwards, I said, prime minister, all the way through that interview, all I could see over your shoulder was perfect blue sky. Ten minutes later.

真奇怪。不过这就是格拉斯哥的特色。克里斯，你下一站要去哪里？

Weird. Well, that's Glasgow for you. Chris, where are going next?

我们要去伯明翰参加改革大会，但我怀疑可能会被副首相的相关动态耽误行程。不过之后应该还是会回到伯明翰。

We are going to Birmingham because it's the reform conference, but I just wonder if I might end up being sidetracked whether to be developments involving the deputy prime minister. Well But then I'll probably end up back in Birmingham after that.

我们拭目以待。无论如何我们都会在新闻播客中报道英国改革大会。克里斯，非常感谢，很高兴能当面见到你。

Well, we'll see. And either way, we will be covering the Reform UK conference on Newscast. Chris, thank you very much. It's very nice to see you in person.

很荣幸来到这里。

A joy to be here.

正如周三承诺的，我们与新任英格兰和威尔士绿党领袖扎克·波兰斯基进行了对话。还有谁比亚历克斯·福赛思更适合和我一起讨论呢？以下是我们与这位新任绿党领袖的对话内容。嗨，亚历克斯。

Now as promised, on Wednesday, we had a chat with the new leader of the Green Party in England and Wales, Zach Polansky. And who better to join me for that chat than Alex Forsyth? So here is how our conversation with the new Green Party leader went. Hi, Alex.

你好，詹姆斯。

Hi, James.

我们在周二的新闻播客中提到，扎克·波兰斯基成为英格兰和威尔士绿党新领袖。亚历克斯，他赢得——我本想说是'轻松'，但实际堪称压倒性胜利，对吧？

Now, as we mentioned on Tuesday's episode of newscast, Zach Polansky is the new leader of the Green Party in England and Wales. And, Alex, he won, I was gonna say comfortably, but, I mean, you could call it a a stunning landslide, really, couldn't you?

确实如此。这场持续许久的绿党领袖竞选结果公布时，我正在看新闻发布会。扎克·波兰斯基以绝对优势击败了另外两位候选人——联合参选的绿党议员艾德里安·拉姆齐和艾莉·琼斯，他的胜选优势令人惊叹。

Yeah, think you could. I think there's probably a lot of people who would love to have won as well as Zach Polansky did. I was watching the press conference when they announced the winner of this contest, which has been quite a long contest for this Green Party leadership. And when the result was announced, Zac Polanski beat the other two candidates who were Adrian Ramsey and Ellie Chowns, who were two Green MPs who were standing on a joint ticket. And he beat them so convincingly.

我认为他赢得了85%的选票。他获得了超过2万票，而对手只有约3700票。房间里爆发出巨大的欢呼声。这是一场相当漫长且我认为竞争激烈的领导权角逐后，一次极具说服力的胜利。

I think he won 85% of the vote. He got like more than 20,000 votes to them getting about 3,700. And there was just like this huge cheer in the room. So it was this really convincing win after what has been quite a long, and I would say hard fought leadership contest.

这简直达到了朝鲜级别的选举胜利——现在扎克加入了我们。你好，扎克。

It's sort of North Korea levels of of of electoral victories that and and Zach is with us now. Hello, Zach.

嗨，非常感谢邀请。不过这里可没有朝鲜，我们只搞民主。

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. No North Korea here, though. We're only doing democracy.

是啊，这听起来可能是明智的做法。周二晚上你们怎么庆祝的？出去好好玩了吗？

Yeah. Well, that that seems like probably a sensible approach. How did you celebrate on Tuesday night? Did you go out and have a good time?

昨晚我参加了个超棒的派对，氛围特别好。虽然我正跟着艾薇儿·拉维尼跳舞时被叫去参加新闻之夜节目，但庆祝会场的那种能量真是美妙。真的感觉发生了重大事件，绿党成员和许多在场的人都迫切想要扭转国家局面——不过得先跳个尽兴。

I went to an amazing party last night. There was such a vibe. I do have to say me dancing to Avril Lavigne got interrupted to go on news night, but still the energy in that room at the celebration was beautiful. It really felt like something momentous had happened. And Green Party members and lots of people there just really ready to to turn the country around, but to have a good dance first.

说到这个，你提到要挑战工党。所以你认为他们才是你们真正的焦点和竞争对手吗？

And in doing that, you've talked about taking the fight to labor. So do you see them as your real focus, your real competition?

没错，他们是执政党。现在这个国家的人们精疲力尽，他们工作时间超长却不见涨薪，食品价格还在不断上涨。

Yeah. They're the government. And people in this country right now are exhausted, and they're tired. They're working really long hours, and their wages aren't increasing. Food prices are going up.

而工党在做什么？他们削减二胎福利上限，或者说维持二胎福利上限不变。他们削减残障福利。人们投票给他们是渴望改变，但他们完全没有兑现承诺。而且我们知道还有其他政党虎视眈眈。

And what are they doing about it? They're cutting two child benefit cap or they're keeping the two child benefit cap. They're cutting disability benefits. People voted for them wanting change, and they've totally not offered that change. And we know there are other parties waiting to swoop in.

所以实际上，绿党此刻肩负着挺身而出、提供真正替代方案的重任。这就是我所说的'大胆政治'——明确绿党支持的一切，更重要的是我们反对什么。我认为民众对此反响热烈。

So actually, the Green Party have a real responsibility to step up at this moment and deliver the real alternative. And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about bold politics, which is being really clear about everything the Green Party stands for and crucially what we stand against. And I think people are really responding to that.

扎克，看你胜选后的就职演讲时，有句话让我印象深刻。你说不仅要挑战工党，更要取代他们——这句话引得全场欢呼。你这么说仿佛是要让绿党成为严肃的执政党。你指的是2029年大选吗？

Zac, it really struck me when I was watching you give your acceptance speech after you won this contest. And you said one thing that did get a bit of a cheer in the room. You said that you didn't just wanna challenge Labour, you wanted to replace them. So you're talking there as if you want to be a serious party of government. Are you talking 2029?

你认为自己真有可能在如此短的时间内，从仅拥有四名议员跃升为执政党吗？你们是否已为此制定了相应计划？

Do you think you can realistically be in that position where you go from four MPs to be a party of government that soon? And have you got the programme for it?

实际上我指的是今年五月。届时伦敦将与伯明翰、南泰恩赛德同时举行大规模选举。从每周持续的补选中我们已经看到，工党席位正不断被绿党夺取。威尔士选举同样在五月举行，这将是我的首要任务之一，确保绿党成员进入参议院。

Well, I'm actually talking about this May. So in London, we have huge elections alongside Birmingham, South Tyneside. And we already know from the by elections that happening week in week out that Labour seats are flipping green. We also have the Wales elections also in May. They're gonna be one of my first priorities to make sure that we do get greens on the Senate.

这些现象都表明民众渴望改变。但我甚至不会等到明年五月——现在就知道基尔斯特·帕默尔正因改革党可能夺走选票和席位而惶恐。我要扭转局面，让他更担心席位被绿党夺取。

I think all of this points to the fact that people want change in this country. But I'm not even gonna wait until next May. We know right now that Kirst Palmer is terrified of losing votes and seats to the reform party. I wanna flip that around so he's much more worried about losing seats to the Green Party.

奈杰尔·法拉奇在某些方面的相对成功，是否有值得你们借鉴之处？

Is there anything you can learn though from Nigel Farage's relative success in some respects?

当然大有可学。首先必须声明，我鄙视法拉奇的政治主张。绿党和左翼常陷入数据图表的泥沼，这些在初期固然重要——我们需要基于事实与科学——但绝不能止步于此。必须讲述能引发共鸣的故事，让民众从中看到自己的身影。

I think there's absolutely loads. So look, I despise Nigel Farage's politics, and that's important to say. In the Green Party and on the left more broadly, we often get lost in spreadsheets and graphs. Now they're really important at the beginning of the process because you need to be talking about facts and science, but you can't stop there. You need to also have emotive stories, stories that people can see themselves in the heart of.

比如我们如何保障劳工权益、应对气候危机、保护自然、将水务公司国有化。当下水务公司正将污水排入河流，还向我们额外收费——这简直骇人听闻。这些叙事和主张在民间极具号召力。

Stories about how we can make sure we're protecting people's rights at work, that we're tackling the climate crisis, that we're protecting nature, that we're nationalizing the water companies. Right now, we are pumping sewage into the water or rather the water companies are. I'm not pumping sewage into the water and then charging us extra for the privilege. This is outrageous. And I think it's these stories and these messages that we know are very popular among the public.

过去的问题是民众认为绿党只关注环保。环保固然是我们的核心，但人们不了解我们降低账单、减少不平等、应对生活成本的具体方案。

The problem in the past has been that people think the Green Party just stands for the environment. The environment's really important. That's never going to change for the party. But they don't know about our plans to lower bills, to reduce inequality, and tackle the cost of living.

有趣的观点。若亚当在场，他定会反驳你对数据图表的评价——他对此钟爱有加。但绿党此次领导权竞争确实重在传播策略而非政策（毕竟政策由党员决定），这是否意味着过往领导层过于聚焦气候环境议题而忽视其他？

It's interesting. I mean, if Adam were here, he'd pick you up on saying spreadsheets and graphs because he loves them. But it is interesting the point that you make because this leadership contest, I mean, I don't know if people are familiar with how the Green Party works, but this wasn't really about policy because obviously the policy in the Green Party is largely set by the members. It was a lot about communication and style. So do you think that in the past, previous Green Party leaders and the party more broadly has focused too much on green issues, on climate, on the environment to the exclusion of everything else?

你们现在会减少谈论气候问题吗？

Are you going to talk less about climate now?

你说得对，这次选举本质是传播方式的较量。我们在多次竞选活动中都强调：政策由党员决定，重点是如何向公众有效传达。实地走访时，常听到'喜欢绿党，垃圾分类很重要'——这正说明我们需要突破单一环保形象。

I think you're right, first of all, that this election was almost entirely about communication. In fact, in many of the hustings, one of the first things myself and and my fellow MPs would say is this election is not really about policy because Green Party members decide that. It's about how we cut through and communicate to the public. And I do think it's fair to say that when I get out and about, which I do a lot, people often say to me, oh, I really like the Green Party. It's really important that we recycle.

我会说，首先，与其回收利用，不如减少我们的消费。这是非常重要的一点。而且这不是个人责任的问题，而是系统变革的问题。如果我们要应对气候危机，就需要企业和政府采取正确的行动。

And I go, well, first of all, rather than recycling, let's reduce our consumption. That's a really important thing to say. And this isn't about individual responsibility. This is about system change. If we're going to tackle the climate crisis, we need businesses and government to be doing the right things.

但问题甚至比这更大。不解决不平等问题，就无法解决气候危机。正是企业在破坏我们的环境、摧毁我们的社区、侵蚀我们的民主。因此，我不认为环境正义和社会正义是两件不同的事。

But it's even bigger than that. You cannot tackle the climate crisis without tackling inequality. It is corporations that are destroying our environment. They're destroying our communities, and they're destroying our democracy. So I don't see environmental justice or social justice as two different things.

它们密不可分。真正重要的是我们要讲述有力的故事，让人们真正理解并在心底感受到这一点。

They are inextricably linked. And what's really important is we're telling powerful stories so people really get that and they really feel it in their heart.

如果你们致力于减少消费，又如何实现经济增长呢？毕竟包括本届政府和许多经济学家都认为经济需要增长才能为公共服务提供资金。还是说你们根本否定我们需要经济增长的观点？

How do you get economic economic growth, which many people, including this government and lots of economists think that the economy needs if we're to fund public services, if you're in the business of reducing consumption? Or do you reject the idea that we actually need growth?

这取决于你具体如何定义经济增长。我来解释我的观点，希望能直接回答你的问题。我们经常用GDP来衡量，但就连GDP概念的提出者都说这是衡量国家健康和福祉的糟糕方式。我们应该更多关注人们的心理健康、性别薪酬差距、种族薪酬差距、残障人士薪酬差距。

Well, it depends what exactly you mean by economic growth. And I'll explain what I mean by that and hopefully answer your question directly. So very often, we're measuring GDP. Even the person who designed the concept of GDP says this is a terrible way to measure the health and well-being of a nation. We should be talking much more about people's mental health, the gender pay gap, the ethnicity pay gap, the disability pay gap.

我们是否拥有团结的社区？人们是否感到生活有目标？我认为还有很多其他方面需要衡量。

Do we have cohesive communities? Do people feel like they have purpose in their lives? I think there's lots of other things we need to be measuring.

但如何说服金融市场借钱给你们呢，

Persuade the money markets to lend anything to you though,

需要吗？我对金融市场毫无兴趣。我现在关心的是流落街头的无家可归者、依赖食物银行救济的人、那些真正在挣扎求生的人。这并不意味着要与金融市场对立，只是说这不是首要考虑。

does it? Well, I've got no interest in the money markets. My interest right now is in people who are homeless on the street, people who are running off food banks, people who are really struggling. Now that doesn't mean antagonizing the money markets. It just means it's not the first place to go.

但如果我们也想让金融市场满意，我认为这些并不矛盾。我们需要投资公共服务，因为支离破碎的国民医疗体系对经济非常不利——这意味着人们生病、无法工作。我保护国民医疗体系不是单纯为了经济增长，而是想要一个健康的国家。而健康的国家自然会促进经济增长，这是很好的副产品。

But if we wanna keep the money markets happy too, I don't think these things are in opposition. What we need to do is invest in our public services because having a broken NHS that is crumbling is really bad for our economy because it means people are sick, they're off work, they're not able to go to work. Now I don't want to protect the NHS because I just wanna see economic growth for its own sake. I wanna have a healthy nation. But actually having a healthy nation is good for economic growth, and that's a great byproduct.

再举个例子，我们生活在世界上自然生态最贫瘠的国家之一。破坏自然可能带来经济增长——比如建造无人居住的豪华公寓就是场灾难。但如果你建造市政住房，确保人们有符合标准的住所，建立社区凝聚力，就能创造更幸福的社区。而幸福的社区往往更具生产力，更可能创业兴业。

To give you another example, we live in one of the most nature depleted countries in the world. If we destroy that nature, it might be great for economic growth. If you're building luxury apartments that are completely unaffordable that no one's living in, that's a disaster. But actually, if you're building council homes and you're making sure there's actual places for people to live in that are good standards, that are there where you're building community cohesion, all of that is gonna be happier communities. We know happier communities are much more likely to be productive, much more likely to run businesses.

重申一次，这不是重点。关键在于建立社群或幸福社群。因此我认为经济增长这个问题远比基尔·斯塔默所理解的更为复杂。而这位首相正在实施的——堪称一场灾难，且极具讽刺意味——是他将所有赌注都押在经济增长上，目前预期仅为1.2%。

Again, that's not the point of it. The point of it is to have community or the the happy community. So I think this question of economic growth is so much more nuanced than Keir Starmer gives it credit for. And what I would say this prime minister is doing, which is a disaster, and it's a deeply ironic disaster, is he's laid everything on economic growth. It's looking at 1.2%.

形势相当严峻。他和瑞秋·里夫斯无疑将所有筹码都压在取悦市场上。但市场和企业对他们极为不满。无论用何种标准衡量，这届政府都是失败的。不过我个人在绿党只有两个核心诉求。

It's pretty grim. And he's laid everything, or Rachel Reeves has certainly, on keeping the markets happy. And the markets and the businesses are really unhappy with them. So whatever measure you measure this government at, they're failing. But really, I only have two vested interests in the Green Party.

我想要保护人民，也想要守护地球。当你对这两点有着极其清晰的认知，当这成为你所有行动的宗旨时，你就能保持坦率、诚实且无畏——因为你无需隐藏任何事。

I wanna protect people, and I wanna protect planet. And when you're really, really clear about that, when that's the aim in everything you do, you can be clear, you can be honest, and you can be bold because you've got nothing to hide.

关键在于——你可能已经听过这个观点，自从赢得领导权竞选后，我注意到你接受了很多采访，感谢你这次也参与。但问题是，你知道你们并非唯一持相似主张的政党或运动——现在或许该这么称呼。新近崛起的扎拉·苏尔塔娜和杰里米·科尔宾，简而言之，他们试图从左翼向工党发起挑战。我清楚他们尚未正式组建政党，正在确定名称和组织架构。

Here's the thing, you would have heard this already, and I've listened to you do a lot, and you have done a lot of interviews since you won that leadership contest. Thanks for doing this one as well. But here's the thing, you know that you are not the only party who is saying quite similar things or movement, we might call them now. There's another kind of new kid on the block in Zara Sultana and Jeremy Corbyn who are looking to, in kind of simplistic terms, but take the fight to Labour from the left, if you like. I know that they're not a properly formed party yet, that they're going through the process, that they're gonna work out their name and the structure on the rest of it.

但从你的言论来看，你显然完全准备与杰里米·科尔宾和扎拉·苏尔塔娜合作，因为你必须意识到，若不这样做，左翼选票分裂将是重大风险。对吧？

But it seems to me from everything I've heard you said, you're pretty clear that you are totally prepared to work with Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana because you must recognise that if you don't, the big risk is that you split the vote on the left. Right?

没错。首先我要说——别告诉其他人——但参加这档节目让我非常兴奋。感谢你的邀请，在这里发言确实令人振奋。顺便插播：我刚推出个人播客《勇敢政治》，并非要与你们竞争，大家仍需收听《新闻播报》，首期嘉宾是阿什·萨卡尔。

Right. So the first thing I'd say is I've done lots of interviews and don't tell the others, but I'm really excited to be on these cast. Thanks for thanking me for being on here, but it feels really, really exciting to to be on here. I've also I'm gonna plug in now just launched my own podcast, which I'm not competing with you. You still need to listen to newscast, but it's called bold politics.

这将是个周更节目。现在直接回答你的问题：我十分钦佩杰里米·科尔宾和扎拉·苏尔塔娜的政治理念。事实上，我认为此刻正是新政治形态崛起的契机。

It's gonna be a weekly show. I've just launched your first episode with Ash Sarkar. Now to come to your question directly, I really admire Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana. I admire their politics. And, actually, I think this is a moment for a new politics.

若在几年前，你会预期不同政党或运动的政客立即寻找分歧点来竞争。但如今人们已彻底厌倦这种模式，他们真正渴望的是协作。

Just a few years ago, you would have expected a politician from a different party or a different movement to be looking instantly for what are the wedge issues? What are our differences? How can we compete? And actually, I think people are really, really over that. And actually, what they wanna see is cooperation.

任何想要挑战这个失败的工党政府并推动改革的人，都是我愿意合作的对象。至于'合作'的具体形式？这是下一个问题。我深知作为记者你们需要明确答案，但在对方政党形态未明时，实在无法给出确切回应。

And anyone who wants to challenge this failing Labour government and take the fight to reform is someone I want to work with. Now, what does want to work with mean? That's the next question. And I wish I could give you a clearer answer on that because as journalists, I know you want absolute clarity. But the truth is, if we don't know who what they are or who they are, it's completely impossible to to to say that.

我确实有底线。例如如果他们想与乔治·加洛维合作，那是他们的选择，但绿党不会参与其中。必须明确的是：这并非我个人能决定，最终要由党员民主表决。

So I do have red lines. So for instance, if they wanted to work with George Galloway, that would be up to them, but that wouldn't be a movement I would want to take the Green Party into. It's also really important to be clear. It's not my decision. It is the democratic decision of the members.

当然，我会有自己的观点，我希望凭借84%的得票率，我的意见能被倾听并得到考虑。但事实上，我热爱我们党的原因在于它完全民主。我认为我们正迎来一个激动人心的时刻，将在公众面前展开这场民主对话。至于杰里米·科尔宾和扎拉·苏尔塔纳的运动如何，他们也会公开讨论。我当前的核心目标是壮大绿党。

And, course, I'll have an opinion, and I hope with an 84% vote, my opinion will be heard and that will be considered. But actually, what I love about our party is it is totally democratic. And I think we're up for this really exciting moment where we'll have this democratic conversation in public. And then whatever Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana's movement is, they'll have a conversation in public too. My very central aim right now is to grow the Green Party.

我刚当选为党魁。我们有39个选区在工党政府之后位居第二。我的首要核心任务是将这些席位翻转为第一，并将上次选举中获得的近200万张选票在下届大选中大幅提升。

I've just been elected as a leader. We have 39 places where we came in second place to the Labour government. My first and central mission is to flip those to first and turn the 2,000,000 votes or the nearly 2,000,000 votes we got at the last election to many more votes at the next general election.

你说话一直这么快吗？

Have you always talked this fast?

我还能说得更快。经常在采访后有人对我说，内容很精彩但语速可以稍缓。而我总希望人们思维能更快。我认为只要表达清晰，语速快反而是优势——太多政客绕半天圈子却说不到重点。何不干脆用快节奏、清晰的表达，充满激情地传递观点呢？

I talk faster. So I've spent a lot of time after interviews with people going, what you said was brilliant, but you know, you could slow a little bit down. I always think I want people to think faster. I think as long as you can talk fast, but with clarity, I actually think far too many politicians take ages to get to the point, and then they don't even have a point. So why don't we talk with speed, with clarity, and make sure we get our point across with passion?

说到这个，你们自称是英国唯一由现任政党领袖主持的播客。作为记者，我担心未来政客是否都想绕过监督，直接向公众喊话而不接受质询、不回答尖锐问题、不受媒体审视？

Well, and and on the on the subject of that, you know, we talk about podcasting and everything and that you're the only podcast led by a current party leader in The UK is how you're billing yourself. I mean, is this and, you know, just as a journalist, is there a concern here that the future is politicians just trying to bypass scrutiny, to just to talk directly to the without being asked questions, without answering difficult questions, without being scrutinized by the media?

我对此深表忧虑。坦诚说，创办播客前我认真考虑过这点。但看看另一面：奈杰尔·法拉奇在TikTok的粉丝比下议院所有议员加起来还多。

I have a huge concern about that. And being really honest, it's something I really considered when setting up this podcast. But let me look at the other side of this. Nigel Farage uses TikTok. He has more followers than every single MP in the House of Commons combined.

他自称接受监督，但GB新闻频道——众所周知由亿万富豪资助，本质是改革党的宣传工具——绿党可没这种财力。说实话我们也不会接受这种资助，我们靠党员小额捐款运营。但做播客是我设定政治话语权的方式。

He would say he gets scrutinized, but he goes on GB News, which we know absolutely are bankrolled by multimillionaires and billionaires and is essentially a propaganda channel for reform. Now, no one's offering the Green Party that kind of money. And to be honest, we would not take it. We're funded by small donations by our members. But I think setting up a podcast is one way of me saying, let's set the political conversation.

不过你们新闻播客随时邀请我都会来。虽然不便点名竞争对手，但我非常乐意接受监督——甚至享受这个过程。我们讨论的都是严肃议题，但当前英国政坛尤其是绿色左翼的活跃态势，让我随时愿与持异见者交锋。播客是设定议程、搭建全国对话的平台，尤其为边缘群体发声。但你说得对，作为伦敦议员和绿党领袖，我理应接受问责与监督。

However, I will absolutely come on newscast anytime you ask me. Will absolutely I won't name competitors, but I'm very happy to be scrutinized. More than that, I welcome the scrutiny. I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but I actually find it quite fun. These are really serious issues that we're talking about.

（补充前文）

But I think the conversations about British politics and the excitement there is right now, particularly around the green left, is something I want to talk about anytime, particularly with people who disagree with me. So yes, the podcast is there for me to help set the agenda, to help set a national conversation, and give particularly marginalized voices a platform and a voice to say their thing. But you're absolutely right. As a politician, both in the London Assembly, I'm elected there for Londoners and across the country. Now as the leader of the Green Party, it's absolutely right that I'm held accountable and I answer to scrutiny.

需要说明的是，GB新闻肯定会否认自己是改革党的宣传工具，并强调他们受英国通信管理局监管。

And I should say that I'm sure GB News would deny that they are propaganda for reform and would point out, I guess, that they're subject to Ofcom's regulations.

我能连续快速问你两件事吗？这关于你提到的清晰性问题。能否明确说明什么是生态民粹主义？

Can I ask you two things in quite brief succession? And this is to your point about clarity. Can you be really clear, what is eco populism?

生态民粹主义认识到，当人们担忧餐桌上的食物、家中的供暖、上班通勤或工作稳定时，谈论气候危机等议题会显得遥不可及——尽管我们知道气候危机已迫在眉睫。因此，连接人们日常关切的途径是讨论降低账单、生活成本危机、食品与必需品价格上涨，最终确保人们知道我们对其日常需求有解决方案。

Eco populism is recognising that if people are worried about putting food on the table, heat in their homes, getting to work, or if they can sustain a job, talking about anything else like the climate crisis can feel very distant to them, even though we know the climate crisis is right here and right now. So the way to connect to people's everyday concerns is to talk about lowering bills, the cost of living crisis, the rise in food and basics, and ultimately make sure that people know we have solutions to their everyday needs.

我还想问，开场时提到这次党魁竞选竞争激烈，过程中有些戏剧性时刻？比如后来电视反复播放的镜头：你与竞争对手艾德里安·拉姆齐并肩而坐，当被问及是否喜欢你时，他只说共事顺利却未正面回答。真实的竞选内幕是怎样的？遇到这种时刻该如何化解？

And can I also ask you, I said at the very beginning that this was quite a hard fought leadership contest and there were some moments within the campaign? I'm thinking of one that's been rolled out on the TV camera subsequently when you and Adrian Ramsey, who was obviously one of the people standing against you, were sat next to each other and he was asked if he liked you. And he talked about working well with you, I think, but he didn't say he liked you. What was that campaign like on the inside? And when you have those moments during a campaign, how do you then get past them?

毕竟你现在虽以显著优势当选绿党领袖，但议会中四位绿党议员里并不包括你。

Because you are now the leader of the Green Party, big mandate, won by a long way, but you've got four MPs who sit in parliament and you're not among them.

那个瞬间让我个人非常尴尬。没人愿意听到别人说不喜欢自己，虽然作为政客必须接受这点。但与同事相处时，总希望保持友好关系。

So the moment was totally cringe for me just on a personal level. I mean, I never want someone to say that they don't like me. And I know that there will be people who don't like me. And as a politician, you get on with that. But with colleagues, you always want to to kind of get on on a friendly level.

但我认为专业素养才是关键。艾德里安过去三四年担任联合领袖时，我作为副手与他有过诸多分歧，但我们始终相互尊重、团结协作，最终以统一阵线面对公众。

But I really think professionally is what people care about. And Adrian was the former co leader for the last three or four years. I've been his deputy leader. There have been plenty of times that we have disagreed, and we have got on with the job. We've done it respectfully and collegiately, and then we've got out there as a united team.

事实上我们取得了绿党史上最佳选举成绩。

And in fact, we've had the best election results in the Green Party history.

但你们彼此喜欢吗？真心喜欢对方吗？

But do you do you like each other? Do you actually like each other?

我喜欢艾德里安。他至今拒绝回答是否喜欢我，虽然后来勉强松口。重点在于，我不需要和同事下班喝酒，只需确认我们能否相互支持。

I like Adrian. Adrian is still refusing to answer if he likes me. I think he eventually conceded to it. But the point is, you know, I don't need to go down to the pub and have a pint with a colleague. What I need to know with a colleague is do we have each other's back?

我们合作是否高效？是否保持专业协作？我敢说这些艾德里安都做到了。至于舞伴？恐怕我得找埃莉·琼斯了，毕竟艾德里安这把年纪可能跳不动啦。

Do we work well together? Do we work collegiately together? And I can say hand on heart, all of those things are true with Adrian. Would I love a mate I can go to the dance floor with? Well, I'm gonna have to take Ellie Chowns because I'm not sure that age that's Adrian's back.

人们不喜欢你的原因之一，会不会是因为你作为催眠治疗师时发表的这些言论？你声称能通过意念帮助一位女记者增大胸部，这究竟是怎么回事？

It isn't it possible that one of the reasons that people might not like you is because of these comments you made as a hypnotherapist when you claimed you could help a woman who was a reporter boost the size of her breasts through the power of thought? What's that all about?

确实。首先关键点在于对方是记者，这是她的主意。我当时不是政客，那是十二年前的事了。

Quite. So first of all, it's important that it was a reporter. So this was her idea. I wasn't a politician. It was twelve years ago.

那篇报道完全歪曲了我的本意。所以我第二天就上BBC新闻电台公开道歉，声明那些言论不能代表我的立场。

The article was written and absolutely didn't represent me. And so I went out on BBC News the next day on the radio and apologized for the comments and said, this doesn't represent me.

那你当初为什么要这么做？

Why did you do it then?

因为当时《太阳报》记者找到我时，我太天真了。觉得这事听起来既有趣又刺激。那时我是个戏剧演员，这类古怪工作和我的其他兼职很搭调。

Because at the time, a Sun journalist approached me. I was naive. It sounded fun. It sounded exciting. And I was a theater actor, and it just kind of fitted in with some of the other bizarre jobs I was doing.

顺便说——至今还没人挖出来——我还曾穿着鸡玩偶装在莱斯特广场发促销薯片。作为剧场演员，没戏演时就得拼命接活谋生。我相信很多从政者都有类似经历，这正是政坛需要的多元背景。我最敬佩的托尼·本说过：'我不在乎你从哪来，只关心你要去哪。'

I was also, by the way, no one's found this yet, dressed as a chicken stood in Leicester Square giving out promotional crisps. So, you know, I was doing lots of jobs as a theatre actor where I wasn't working in theatre, but actually I was hustling to earn a living. And I think lots of people in this country will identify with the fact that people who have got into politics haven't always been politicians. And I do think that is a unique thing that we need in politics. But one of my favorite politicians, Tony Ben, has an amazing phrase, which is I don't care where you came from, I care where you're going.

我真正希望民众关注的是——这也是我未来要努力争取支持的——我始终为边缘群体发声。昨天当选后我第一件事就是去'世界联合之声'移民工会，这本身就是种宣言。因为当我们为最困顿的人群放大声音时，实际上是在改善这个国家每个人的生活。

And what I really want people to focus on, and I hope I will win people over on in the course of time, is the fact that I'm standing up for marginalized people. In fact, when I was elected yesterday, the first thing I did was went to the United Voices of the World. This is a migrants union. And that was a statement of intent. Because actually, if we amplify the voices of the people who are finding life hardest right now, that actually improves the lives for every single person in this country.

消除不平等必须是我们所有工作的核心。那些愚蠢尴尬的言论，我道歉后已翻篇。不过有趣的是，我刚当选执政党就翻出十一二年前的旧闻攻击我——这反而让我觉得荒谬又好笑。

And tackling inequality has to be at the heart of everything we do. So yes, silly comments, embarrassing comments. I've apologized for them and moved on. Oh, and one last thing, though. I was amazed and stroke slightly delighted when the first thing that happened when I was elected is that the party of government put out a tweet attacking me for this petty story eleven or twelve years ago.

我今天在X上回应：是的，我犯过错也道过歉，但至少我没在武装支持种族灭绝。虽然用这么严重的事作对比不太恰当，但道理没错——这个政府怎敢指责改过自新、正在为国奉献的人？他们自己每天都在做更恶劣且拒不道歉的事，甚至变本加厉。

I I tweeted out today or x ed out today to say, yes, I've made mistakes in the past that I've apologized for, but I'm not arming a genocide. And although I'm being slightly trivial about that for something so serious, I think the point is really true. How dare this government point to people who have had lives in the past and apologized and moved on and now doing good for the country and working for social purpose at the same time as they are doing pretty shocking and embarrassing things every single day that they are not only not apologizing for, they're actually getting worse on.

作为绿党领袖，你刚提到政府立场。关于对以色列军售问题，政府声称已暂停30项可能违反国际法的武器出口许可（总计350项）。鉴于你的指控，我认为有必要说明政府官方立场。

I should say, and I say this because obviously we're talking to you as a Green Party leader, but you just said something about government. I should say what the government's position is when it comes to arms exports, where they say that they have suspended, I think it's 30 out of three fifty arms exports to Israel that they said that they thought that they were at risk of breaching international law about. I just feel like it's fair to state the government's position given what you said, but just think on the point

非常公平，我确实想回应的是，我们看到大卫·拉米和柯尔斯滕·阿默经常表态希望停火，频繁对暴行做出悲伤表情和无奈耸肩。但事实是他们仍在共享武器，共享情报的行为绝对令人不齿。我不认为这是独特或微妙的立场。事实上，民意调查一再显示，当你与大多数公众交谈时，他们也是这么想的。

perfectly fair, I do want to respond that we have David Lammy and Kirst Ammer regularly saying that they want a ceasefire, regularly making sad faces and shrugging about the atrocities. But still the fact they're still sharing arms at all. The fact that they're sharing intelligence is absolutely despicable. And I don't think this is a unique or nuanced position. I think when you speak to the majority of the public, in fact, polling shows this over and over again.

人们对加沙正在发生的事感到震惊与厌恶。

People are shocked and disgusted by what is happening in Gaza.

我不打算要求你回应这点，你已经表明了立场。但为了反映他们的观点，以色列政府一直否认其在加沙的行为构成种族灭绝。

And, I'm not going to ask you to respond to this. You've made your point. But just to reflect their view, the Israeli government has regularly denied that its actions in Gaza amount to genocide.

关于你提到曾发表那些言论并道歉的事，我想最后补充一点。虽然你说那是十或十一年前，但竞选期间有人担心，作为领导人的你可能会疏远那些在立场上不如你强硬的潜在支持者。考虑到绿党吸引了许多前保守党选民，或瞄准了这些选民所在的选区，有人质疑你自称的'大胆'政治风格、直言不讳的表达方式，以及直击要点的信息传递，是否会吓退那些曾考虑支持绿党的选民。

One sort of final thought on the that you said you made those comments, you apologized for them. They were, I think you said ten or eleven years ago, but I just there was one thing that came up in the campaign where there were some people in the party or who were worried that you as the leader might end up alienating politically some people who might not take a stronger position as you on something. So I'm thinking about the fact that Green Party has attracted a lot of perhaps former conservative voters or has been targeting seats with our former conservative voters. And there was a question about whether or not you and your bold, as you call it, style of politics and this straight talking as you say it and the clear get to the point messaging actually might alienate some of those voters who flirted with the idea of the Greens.

我想对他们说——他们也清楚这点——不平等伤害着每个地方的人。无论你生活在城镇、村庄、城市还是乡村，人们都需要改变与权力的关系。比如曼彻斯特或伯明翰的租房者急需租金管制来修复破碎的住房市场，而乡村地区的农民正面临80%补贴流向最富裕的20%土地所有者的问题。佃农被超市压榨，劳动得不到合理报酬，但他们恰恰关乎我国的粮食安全与未来。

Well, what I'd say to them, and they know this, is that inequality hurts you wherever you live. Whether you live in a town, a village, a city, or the countryside, people need to change the relationship with power. And what I mean by that is if you live in a city like Manchester or Birmingham, you might be a renter who badly needs rent controls to fix the broken housing market. But if you live in the country and you're a farmer, for instance, 80% of subsidies are going to the wealthiest 20% of landowners. But actually tenant farmers are being screwed over by the supermarkets who aren't being paying them properly for their work, and they're vital for our food security and the future of this country.

实际上不止我这么认为。我的副手蕾切尔·米尔沃德——我们共同领导韦尔丁议会——明确表示，我对政党的愿景正是英国乡村社区所需要的。有时我觉得（其实我确信）城乡选区存在分歧的说法被夸大了。当你真正敲门走访时，会发现人们关心的核心问题大同小异。

So actually, it's not just me that says this. My deputy leader, Rachel Millward, who shares the leadership of running Weilding Council, has said that she is really clear that my vision of the party is exactly what rural communities need in this country. So I sometimes think, in fact, I know that it gets overplayed this idea that there's some split between urban and rural seats. Actually, when you go knocking on doors, people are people, and they largely care about the same things.

听到这些观点非常有趣。感谢你抽出时间接受采访，正如亚历克斯所说，这是系列长篇访谈。非常感谢你的分享。

Well, it's really interesting to hear from you. Thank you very much for taking the time as in as what Alex says, it's a very long series of interviews. So thank you very much for talking to us.

非常感谢邀请，我很享受这次对话。

Thanks so much for having me. I loved it.

刚才我们对话的是英格兰和威尔士绿党新领袖扎克·波兰斯基。亚历克斯，我猜他已经离开了——我本想问你的看法，但他已经走了。

So that was Zach Polansky, new leader of the Green Party in England and Wales. And I assume he's gone before I ask you, Alex. I was gonna say, what did you think? But he has gone. He's gone.

是的，他离开了。现在我们可以畅所欲言——你对刚才的访谈有什么看法？

Yes. He's gone. Now we can talk about him. What did you think of that?

我认为这件事的迷人之处在于，绿党频繁更换领导人，因为该党引以为豪的重要部分正是这种民主的内部流程——党员希望深度参与。所以他们相当频繁地举行领导层竞选。而这次感觉截然不同，可能是该党的一个关键转折点。我觉得这正如扎克·波兰斯基所言，他显然带着完全不同的风格上任。

I mean, I think what's fascinating about this is that the green parties change their leaders quite a lot because obviously a big part of what the party prides itself on is this sort of democratic internal processes where the membership wants to be really involved. So they have leadership contests fairly frequently. This one does feel quite different and potentially quite a pivotal moment for the party. And I think it's because of what Zach Polansky was saying there. He's clearly coming in with a completely different style.

他自己说过，他想效仿奈杰尔·法拉奇的做法——不是政治立场，而是传播信息和与民众沟通的方式，让党的理念触达更多人。这对绿党而言是相当新颖的策略。他在领导竞选中取得了压倒性胜利，这点毋庸置疑。但现在问题在于，他如何与传统上行事风格迥异的党派融合。

He said himself that he wants to look at what Nigel Farage does not in terms of politics, but in terms of communicating and messaging and somehow getting out there to people, the message of your party and kind of emulate a little bit of that. It's quite a different approach for the Green Party. And he won a resounding victory in that leadership contest. There's absolutely no doubting that at all. But obviously now it's kind of how that then gels, how he settles in to a party that's had traditionally quite a different approach to things.

此外，他提到的关于杰里米·科尔宾和扎拉·苏尔塔娜运动/党派的发展也至关重要。因为绿党与杰里米·戈德曼、扎拉·苏尔塔娜面临的明显风险是，他们最终可能导致左翼选票分裂。虽然我不喜欢这种简单化的表述，但广义上说这就是他们的风险。显然扎克·帕兰斯基愿意以某种形式与杰里米·科尔宾和扎拉·苏尔塔娜合作。这些事态将如何发展，以及最终对基尔·斯塔默领导的工党产生何种影响（如果有的话），会非常值得关注。

And I also think what is gonna be significant is what he was talking about, about what happens with the Jeremy Corbyn Zarasultana movement stroke party. Because obviously the danger for the Green Party and for Jeremy Goldman and Zara Sultana is that they do end up sort of splitting the vote on the left. I always hate putting it like that because it's quite a sort of obvious way of saying it, but in the broadest terms, that's the kind of risk for them. It's really clear that Zac Palanski is up for working with Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana in some format. I think it will be fascinating to see how all of that bears out and what influence, if any, all of this does ultimately end up having on Kirstjana's Labour Party.

是的，亚历克斯，你说得对。这确实会很有意思。很高兴见到你。

Yeah. I think you're right, Alex. I think it really will be. It's very nice to see you.

詹姆斯，见到你真好。

Great to see you, James.

回头见。

See you soon.

再见。

Bye.

显然，夏天已经彻底结束了。政治活动也全面回归，从这期内容爆满的《新闻播报》就能看出来。我们很快会带来下一期节目，暂时先道别了。《新闻播报》。

Well, summer is well and truly over. That's for sure. And politics is very much back, as you can tell from this jam packed episode of Newscast, and we will be back with another one very soon. Bye for now. Newscast.

BBC《新闻播报》。

Newscast from the BBC.

非常感谢您收听完整期《新闻播报》。您显然——克里斯·梅森版权所有——有惊人的耐力。能否请您在BBC Sounds上订阅我们？别忘了随时给我们发邮件：Newscast@BBC.co.UK。

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly, copyright Chris Mason, booze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's Newscast@BBC.co.UK.

如果你想加入我们的Discord社区，讨论一切与Newscast相关的内容，本播客的简介中有链接。别担心，点击链接并完成设置超级简单。或者你也可以通过WhatsApp联系我们，号码是03301239480。我保证我们会阅读并倾听每一条消息。

And if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything Newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 03301239480. And I promise you we read and listen to every single message.

感谢收听本期播客，再见。

Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.