与创作者迈克·怀特一起重温《白莲花度假村》

这里是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

我通常只做纯粹的脱口秀，但这次有点不同。

I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.

当一位真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会发生什么？答案是一档名为《妙语连珠》的新播客，讲述一位喜剧演员意外卷入一桩令人毛骨悚然的真实犯罪故事。

What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story.

有人知道他们来

Does anyone know what show they've come

看什么节目吗？这是个故事，关于我生命中最恐怖的一夜。

to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life.

《妙语连珠》现已上线，您可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何播客平台收听。

This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1975年12月29日，拉瓜迪亚机场。

12/29/1975, LaGuardia Airport.

假日出行高峰。父母拖着行李，孩子们紧攥圣诞礼物。随后一切骤变。

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then everything changed.

环球航空航站楼发生爆炸，现场一片混乱。

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

此后，一种新型威胁浮出水面——恐怖主义。请通过iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何播客平台收听《法律与秩序：刑事司法系统》新季内容。

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, terrorism. Listen to the new season of Law and Order criminal justice system on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我男朋友的教授太过友好了，

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and

现在我严重怀疑。等一下，

now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a

山姆，也许她男朋友只是想额外加分。

minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit.

好吧，达科塔，幸运的是，Okay Storytime播客正在举办返校周活动，我们很快就能知道答案。这位听众写道：我男朋友最近经常和他年轻的教授待在一起。他不觉得这有什么问题，但我不信任她。现在他坚持要我们互相认识，可我只想她消失。

Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the Okay Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

等等，这难道不违反学校规定吗？看起来很不合适。

Now hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate.

想知道结局如何，可以在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你收听播客的平台关注Okay Storytime播客。

Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是凯蒂·库里克，想向大家推荐我最喜欢的新播客之一《A Really Good Cry》。主持人罗迪·德弗卢西亚是一位素食厨师、企业家，现在又化身播客主播，将带领你一步步踏上自我发现的旅程。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何平台收听罗迪·德弗卢西亚主持的《A Really Good Cry》。大家好，

Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric, and I wanna tell you about one of my new favorite podcasts. It's called A Really Good Cry with the amazing Roddy DeVlukia, a plant based chef, entrepreneur, and now podcast host who will guide you through a journey of self discovery, one tier at a time. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Roddy DeVlucia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone.

我是凯蒂·库里克，这里是《Next Question》。今天我非常激动，因为嘉宾是热门剧集《白莲花度假村》的创作者。我完全沉迷其中。第二季讲述了西西里岛一座绝美海滨度假村里，一群富有的游客与工作人员的故事。

I'm Katie Couric, and this is Next Question. I am super psyched, you guys, because my guest today is the creator of the show everyone is talking about, The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily.

欢迎来到《白莲花度假村》。

Welcome to The White Lotus.

我是

I am

瓦伦蒂娜，度假村经理。你们的船程如何？简直太美妙了。我是说，你能出现在这里就让我很惊讶。为什么惊讶？

Valentina, the resort manager. How was your boat ride? It was bellissimo. I mean, I'm impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed?

从洛杉矶过来路途遥远，而且您年纪也不小了。不是吗？总之，伊莎贝拉会带您去酒店，领您到漂亮的房间。可以为您提供一杯普罗塞克葡萄酒。谢谢亲爱的，你真是赏心悦目。

It's a long trip from Los Angeles, and you're quite old. No? Anyway, Isabella here will take you up to the hotel and bring you to your beautiful room. Can offer you a glass of Prosecco. Thank you dear, you're a cypress sore eye.

你。之前

You. Before

在《白莲花度假村》的奢华世界之前，迈克·怀特大部分时间都处于边缘地带，塑造着那些同样孤独、古怪、漂泊的角色。比如《查克和巴克》、《与莫莉·香侬合作的狗年》、《与詹妮弗·安妮斯顿合作的《好女孩》》，以及与杰克·布莱克合作的《摇滚校园》。这些电影本身都很受欢迎，但与围绕《白莲花》那些充满恶意、头条驱动、阴谋论调的热议截然不同。对迈克来说，这似乎是个略显不适的新处境。

the luxe world of the White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his time on the periphery, creating characters who were too. Loners, weirdos, and wanderers. In movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with Jennifer Aniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black. Popular movies in their own right, but nothing like the mean producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White Lotus. It seems like it's a new slightly uncomfortable position for Mike to be in.

我总把自己看作弱者，永远如此——永远觉得自己是需要证明些什么的人。所以即便成功了，我还是感觉...不知道。我不觉得自己是冒牌货，但总觉得像是从侧门溜进来的。

I see myself as an underdog, and I and I'm always like that like, I'm always gonna see myself as, like, somebody who has to prove something. So, like, even in success, I still feel like I don't know. Yeah. I'm not an I don't feel like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know. Like, I slipped in through the side door or something.

今天我们要深入探讨这一切：剧集的制作过程、那些疯狂角色的塑造、迈克的童年，以及他对新获得的名声的真实感受。首先请问，如今的迈克·怀特过着怎样的生活？

Today, we dive into all of it. The making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters, Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame. So let me just first start by asking, what does it feel like to be Mike White these days?

哇，这问题...说实话我们刚完成最后一集。由于新冠疫情、意大利天气等种种原因，拍摄周期变得非常混乱，超出了原计划。我本以为HBO会让我们稍作休整延迟播出，但他们却说'我们需要按时上线'。

Well, what a a question. I, you know, I we honestly just finished the final episode. We had a a very crazy shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went over our shoot. And so I thought HBO would give us a little break and let us air later than what we were expecting. And instead, they were like, we need it when we need it.

这导致后期制作时间被压缩。直到十天前我还在剪辑收尾。目前我因税务优惠住在夏威夷——他们在这里做后期能享受政策优惠，这很棒。所以我一直像活在泡泡里。

And so it cut into our post. So I was editing and finishing the show up until, like, ten days ago. So I've just been, like I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now. For tax reasons, there's a good incentive for them to do the post here, which is great. But I so I've been kind of in a bubble.

这段时间我就是在岛上生活，完成剧集。所以...具体感受我说不上来。不像在洛杉矶会有人跟我击掌庆祝那样。虽然知道观众喜欢这部剧，但我的生活依然像被困在岛上，困在这个泡泡里。

I've just been finishing the show, living on an island. And so, yeah, it's I don't know. I don't I don't know what it's like to but it but it doesn't I'm not getting it's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking around LA and, like, getting high fives from people or anything like that. So it's it's it but I'm but I'm excited that it's since the the the people are watching the show and liking it, and and I I'm definitely getting that, but it's but it's just pretty I'm still kind of living on an island and living in a bubble.

不过话虽如此，迈克，我们得说实话。你现在简直是整个好莱坞羡慕的对象，这点你在Vulture的采访中也坦率提到过——谈到好莱坞的浮沉、人们如何互相嫉妒，以及你极强的竞争意识。既然这样，迈克，你有没有停下来对自己说过'我真是牛逼透了'？

Well, having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean, you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood, and this is something that you've talked about kind of willingly in an article you did in Vulture. You talked about Hollywood, who's up, who's down, kind of how people are all envious of one another, and that you're uber competitive. So have you been having said all that, Mike, have you been able to take a moment and kind of say, I'm the bomb?

天啊，不，不，那完全不是我。但是...是的，我...我...说实话，凯蒂，我觉得自己已经52岁了，从22岁就开始做这一行。

Oh my god. No. No. That's so not me. But I but, yes, I I I am I'm you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like I'm, you know, I'm 52 years old, and I've been doing this since I was 22 years old.

这些年来我创作过很多作品，有些自认为很成功，但从未获得过这种程度的反响。就像我在夏威夷想到的比喻——我像个在海上冲浪很久的人，突然抓住了一道浪。不知为何是这道浪，但以我的年龄和资历，深知这既是恩赐也无法强求。你永远不知道人们会为什么买单，所以我很兴奋。

And so and I've had, you know, a lot of things made and and a lot of things that I thought were successful, but not at at this, yeah, with this kind of reaction. And so I just sort of feel like to use the, like since I'm in Hawaii, like, an analogy that fits here, which is, like, I feel like I'm a surfer who's been out in the ocean for a long time and, like, I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave, but, like, you know, obviously, I I'm old enough and have had a long enough career to see it as, yeah, a blessing and but also something that you can't you know, I I I would never try to chase this reaction because I just it's just it's just you just never know what's gonna yeah. What people are gonna respond to. So I'm I'm excited.

既然你这么说我就信了...其实我也不确定。当然很开心，毕竟到了这个年纪我常怀疑自己还能继续创作吗？

I'll take your word for it that that's that it's yeah. I don't know. I'm obviously, I'm happy. It's like I mean, I I I was, like, at the age where I was just like, can I keep doing it? You know?

就像老玛丽早已不复当年，所以能获得一点...嗯...确实很有趣。我非常兴奋，但也不知道...随便吧。

Like, was like, maybe the old gray Mary ain't what she used to be, and I'm gonna, like so, like, it's nice to have a little, like yeah. It's it's it's definitely fun. I'm I'm very excited, but I'm I I don't know. I don't know. Whatever.

我们来聊聊《白莲花度假村》的起源。有次派对上听好莱坞人士说，HBO疫情期间在毛伊岛找到空置酒店，问你能否写个酒店背景的剧？是这样开始的吗？

Well, let's talk about the genesis of White Lotus. I was at a party, and I heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White, can you write a a show that takes place in a hotel? Is that how it started?

差不多。当时HBO很多项目因疫情搁浅，他们知道我写得快、擅长对白，觉得我能写出规避疫情限制的

It it kind of. It definitely was like they they need they had a lot of projects that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they just they knew I was kinda fast and that, like, I was good with dialogue and that, like, maybe a show that was very that I could write a show in a bubble that was, like that would maybe be immune from some of the COVID, issues that they had, come upon. And so so they asked me to do, like, can you come up with a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like I it was my idea to do it in a hotel. And I I was like and I'm you know, I have a place in Kauai, and I'm like and I knew that there were all these hotels that were just, yeah, defunct they were just had shut down because of COVID, and I was like, we could grab one of those hotels in bed in Hawaii.

泡泡剧集。酒店创意是我想的——我在考艾岛有住处，知道夏威夷很多酒店因疫情歇业，提议就地取景。其实他们本不想让我们去夏威夷，觉得疫情风险大，宁愿在兰开斯特或凯西·贝兹家附近拍。最后是我坚持才成行。

But they didn't even really want us to go to Hawaii because that was already too treacherous potential issues with COVID. They wanted us they probably would have been happy if we'd found, like, a hotel in, like, Lancaster or, like, you know, across the street from Casey Boyce's house or something. Right? So, like so, yeah, I just so, yeah, I had to push for Hawaii, but, yeah, it was kind of a mix a mix of that.

谈谈两季的创作灵感吧，先从第一季开始。面对空白屏幕时，你想表达什么？虽然问题很宽泛，但很好奇——当决定展现阶级差异和精彩角色时，你的核心目标是什么？

And tell me a little bit about how you were inspired to write really both seasons, but let's start with the first. I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike, what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind of a big, broad question, but I'm just curious. You've got a a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you decide, I want to show class differences. I want to show really interesting characters.

这部剧最打动我的是它的时代感。有些作品制作周期长，播出时就过时了。但《白莲花》完全捕捉到了当下脉搏。能聊聊你动笔时的思考过程吗？

I think one of the things I one of many things I love about this show is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get made and they come out a couple of years later or even a year later, and they don't feel au courant or of the moment. I think White Lotus felt so tuned in to current sensibilities. So just talk to me a little bit about your thought process when you put finger to keyboard.

你是指...第一季吗？

Are you talking about like the like the first season?

好的，当然。然后我们再讨论第二部分。

Yeah. Sure. And then we'll talk about the second.

是的。第一季的时候，我我我我...你知道，我在夏威夷待过很长时间。所以，你知道，那里确实存在两个阶层。一方面是游客和有钱人来这里度假，另一方面是服务阶层，他们中有些人经济状况不错，但都在为这些游客服务。听久了你会发现，我显然了解游客那部分，因为我去过那里，而且我很多朋友也常去，所以我懂那部分。但服务阶层的那一面我也了解。

Yeah. The first season, it was I I I I you know, I've spent a lot of time in Hawaii. So, you know, some of and a lot the the in Hawaii, there's definitely, like, two classes. There's the, you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who come and have their vacations here, and then there's the service class of people who can be at any some of them do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists. And you know, if you hear long enough, you get, like, this, you know, the you I obviously know the tourist side of it because I've been there and I you know, it's like and a lot of my friends who visit, you know, so I get that part of it, but then also, you know, the service side of it.

我只是觉得，做这类题材有点意思。因为像《酒店》或《梦幻岛》，你会想到《爱之船》。这类剧集在这个类型里有历史传承。但要做些观察更细致、更能捕捉精髓的东西。

And I just felt like, you know, there's something about doing you know, because obviously, Hotel or, like, Fantasy Island, you think of Love Boat. Like, there there's, like, there's, like, a history of these kind shows in this kind of, you know, genre. Genre. Exactly. But to do something that is a little bit more well observed and that kind of gets it.

我觉得金钱如何影响人际关系很有趣，不仅是服务者与顾客之间，还有夫妻、父子之间。这个主题似乎很有挖掘空间，所以最初是出于这个冲动。因为故事发生在酒店里，没人能离开，就像个熔炉。

You know, I just thought it was, like, an interesting about how money who has the money impacts relationships, both obviously from the server customer, but also, you know, the husband and the wife and the father and the child. And and and so it just felt like maybe as a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind of the initial impulse. Because I was like, we're gonna be in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It kinda has to be a crucible.

你懂吧？于是故事就从这里展开。后来可能因为上网太多，受推特语言影响，我开始即兴发挥，试图捕捉一些当代语言的特色。

Everyone you know? And so, yeah, it kinda built out from there. And then it was just, like, years of maybe years of too much being online and, like, Twitter speak and, like, it was just like I was like like, I would just start freestyling as far as just, like, trying to get at some of the, yeah, I don't know, the kind of contemporary language and stuff like that.

在我看来你就像个人类学家，发现并揭露人类行为。我看剧时总在想，迈克从真人秀中学到了多少人们的行为模式？毕竟你参加过《幸存者》，和杰夫·普罗斯特是好友，热爱真人秀。

It seems to me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch, I wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being on reality shows, how people act? Because, obviously, you were in survivor on survivor. I understand you're a good friend of Jeff Probst. You love reality television.

你还和父亲参加过《极速前进》。这些经历是否影响了《白莲花》的创作？我这些问题会不会太奇怪了？

You were on the amazing race with your dad. So did some of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus? Am I getting too weird on these questions?

不，一点也不。在真人秀大爆发前我就是编剧了，大概从二月份开始。但当《幸存者》出现时，你会看到人们这一刻可能很烦人或小心眼，下一刻又变得脆弱让你心疼，接着又展现勇气。

No. Not at all. I I mean, I I I she what I loved when I when I you know, because I was obviously a writer before the big reality boom, which I think started, like, in February. And then but, like, you know, you a show like Survivor came along and you were like, wow. It was showing people, you know, one minute they would be very irritating or very petty, and then the next minute they would be very vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then they could be courageous.

这些人都是立体的，尽管节目形式可能套路化，但作为编剧，这让我想提升创作水平。因为真人秀人物总是充满惊喜，有着各种面貌。我一直想写出能媲美真人秀里精彩人物的角色。

And I don't know. It was just like, you would see these these I mean, because they were people. It was, like, fully dimensional humans. And even though maybe the format could be formulaic, there was something I I just as a writer, was like, this is this is you know, this this makes you wanna raise your game as far as, like, when you are creating characters that people are watching. Because it felt like they were always surprising and you're you know, you just you there wasn't some internal integrity, obviously, but there was also all of these colors.

是的，这确实是部分原因。我从小就...山姆·谢泼德的母亲是我二年级老师，她深爱儿子，而我很喜欢她。那是我第一次知道有人是剧作家。所以很早我就开始写小剧本了。

And so it I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match, you know, some of the great care you know, personalities that you see in reality TV. So, yeah, I I do think that's a that's a part of it. And I I just think that when I was very young, starting very early, I was I was always you know, I had Sam Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved her son, and I loved her. And so it was the first time that I realized, oh, people were playwrights. So very early on, I was writing little plays.

所以，我一直都在倾听，对人们的言谈方式很感兴趣，因为我总是从对话的角度思考问题，而且他们对自己的描述并不总是与他们真实的想法一致，也不总是与他们将要采取的行动相符。这对我来说一直很有趣。因此，我一直有点

And so, like, I've always listened I've always been, like, interested in how people talk because I've always thought about things in terms of dialogue and then also how what they say about themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't always match what they are gonna do. So that's always been interesting to me. And so I've always been kind

算是那种现象的观察者吧，我猜。

of an observer of of that, I guess.

不过，我想你的童年除了在二年级时由山姆·谢泼德的母亲教导——这是个挺酷的小趣闻——你还在帕萨迪纳的一个福音派家庭中长大，然而你一直对宗教持怀疑态度。迈克，你的童年是怎样的？

I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a cool little fact, a trivia fact, you grew up in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike?

嗯，我的父母非常慈爱，我有一个充满关怀、积极的家庭。我父亲是牧师，我们是更大的、更偏向福音派的宗教社区的一部分。正是在那个社区里，我总觉得自己有点格格不入。我从未真正接受他们的信仰，就像人们说的那样。我一直……是的。

Well, my parents were very loving, and I loved I I had a very nurturing, positive nuclear family. My dad was a minister, and we were part of a bigger kind of more, yeah, evangelical religious community. And it was there that community where it was definitely felt I always felt a little alien. I never really drunk the Kool Aid, as they say. And I I always yeah.

正是在那里，我想……戏剧的一部分就是，是的，要穿透表象，试图看清人们真正做了什么，他们真实的样子，而不仅仅是他们声称的那样。我认为那些较小的福音派社区中有很多虚伪，特别是在性和人们如何看待行为动机等方面。所以我总觉得……我一直想知道真相是什么。我一直对人们的行为与他们展现的形象之间的不一致很感兴趣。

It was there where you I think that I you know, some of the you know, part of drama is is, yeah, getting past the, you know, the the facade and trying to see what people really do and what people really are like be beyond what they say they do. And I I think there's a lot of hypocrisy in a lot of those smaller evangelical communities about, you know, certainly around sex and around how people, you know, think about, you know, what the motivations for behavior are and stuff. And so I I I I've so it always I always felt like I was like I always wanted to know I was like, what's the what's the real? You know? Like, I've always been, like, yeah, interested in, like, what really how what people do and how that that's sometimes not really in line with how they present themselves.

迈克，我认为这在你很多作品中都有体现。我最近重看了《布拉德的中年危机》。

I think that shows up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was rewatching Brad's status.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我认为那部电影在表现布拉德（本·斯蒂勒饰）内心的挣扎方面非常有效，他将自己的生活状况与那些过得更好的大学朋友进行比较。这种外在和内在的冲突似乎是你经常探讨的主题。我读到，你11岁时，你的父亲向家人出柜了。你提到他是牧师，但也是杰里·法威尔和塔米·贝克等人的代笔。你曾说过，发现父亲的性取向是你写作的‘关键’。

And I think that was very effective in terms of this inner turmoil Brad, aka Ben Stiller, is experiencing, comparing his station in life to all of his college friends who were doing much better. And I think that external, internal conflict is something, it seems to me, that you go back to. And I read that when you were 11, your dad came out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned, but also a ghostwriter for people like Jerry Falwell and Tammy Baker. And you once said finding out about your dad's sexuality is, quote, the key to everything I write.

为什么这么说？

How so?

是的。就像我刚才说的，这是一个巨大的冲击，你以为你的家庭是这样的，你的父亲是这样的，他是牧师，然后你发现他还有完全不同的另一面，这不一定是阴暗面，而是一种真相，这个真相与他在世界上应该扮演的角色相矛盾。因此，我认为探索这一点……对我来说，这显然以一种直接的方式击中了我，让我们明白我们比我们展现的自己更复杂，我们在社区中展示的只是某种面孔。

Yeah. Well, just in the sense of what I was just talking about, which is, you know, it's a big rug to be pulled from under you where, you know, you think your family is this thing and your dad is this thing and he's a minister, and then you realize there's this other whole other side, which isn't necessarily a dark side. It's just a truth, and the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to be in the world. And and so I think, you know, exploring that and and and and I think that that yeah. That just just to me, it just you know, obviously, it it hit home in a literal way just that, you know, we are more complicated than we present ourselves and that we put our a certain face to our community.

或许在戏剧中展现这些时，显然存在某种挑逗成分，但同时也可能带来某种慰藉——意识到每个人都在与之抗争。我们想成为的人与世界期待我们成为的人，往往并不一致，这没关系，这就是人性，诸如此类。

And that that maybe in drama and showing some of that, obviously, there's a titillation part of it, but then there's, like, maybe some kind of solace to know that, like, everybody is grappling with this. Like, that the person that we wanna be and the person that the world wants us to be, we're not always that, and that's okay, and that's human and and that kind of thing.

我知道你毕业于卫斯理大学，你说在那里终于找到了同类。那么卫斯理如何影响了你，不仅是作为个人，更是作为作家？

You went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you, not only as a person, but as a writer?

我在高中和小学阶段成长于相对单一的社区环境。进入卫斯理后，那里整体上是个思想开放的自由主义社群，而且那些孩子都老练得惊人。我感觉自己完全跟不上节奏——虽然就读于不错的学校，但在文化素养方面，我只能靠自学。比如自己订阅《纽约客》杂志什么的，试图在文化迷宫中摸索出路。

Well, I I was in a kind of more homogenous community growing up in high school, you know, and grade school. And so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a very open minded liberal community in general and also just these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was just like I just felt like I was, like, behind the curve. You know, was kind of a self taught I mean, I was just I mean, I went to a good school, but it was like, as far as culture and stuff, I was just I was, you know, I, like, had my own, like, subscription to the New Yorker for I don't know. I was I was just trying to find my way through the culture.

卫斯理有很多来自纽约的犹太裔学生，他们就像完全成熟的精致人士。而我感觉自己像个土包子，但又被那种氛围深深吸引。直到今天，当时结识的许多人仍是我的核心朋友圈。

And so, like, I would I went to Wesley and all these you know, there were lot of I mean, it was a lot of New York Jewish kids who are, like, very, like, fully baked and fully, like, you know you know, like, new fancy people. And I I was just, like I kinda was just I felt like a rube. But I I but I was so enamored by the, yeah, the whole vibe there. And still to my this day, a lot of those kids I met there are are my my friend group.

从卫斯理毕业时，你是对戏剧创作特别感兴趣，还是广义的写作？

And when you when you graduated from Wesleyan, were you really interested in playwriting or just writing in general?

当时我想成为剧作家，想成为山姆·谢泼德那样的人。从加州来到卫斯理后，我连袜子都没带——根本没意识到东部这么冷，完全超出我的承受范围。

Well, I wanted to be a playwright. I wanted to be Sam Shepard. I went from California to, yeah, to Wesleyan, and I was like, I didn't have socks. And I I didn't realize how cold it was back east. I was like, this is too cold for me.

原本计划去纽约当明星剧作家，但被天气劝退了。所以我差不多算是...

Like, I so I was like I was like my plan was to go to New York and be a starring playwright, but I was like, I don't know if I could handle this weather. I was like so I I, like, kind of

误入歧途后回到洛杉矶，开始为电影电视写剧本。

I fell into the wrong crowd and came back to LA, and I was you know, started writing for for movies and TV.

广告之后，让我们去西西里岛看看吧？我的...

After the break, let's go to Sicily, shall we? My

名字是艾德，大家跟艾德打个招呼。

name is Ed. Everyone say hello, Ed.

你好，埃德。

Hello, Ed.

我来自一个

I'm from a

非常乡村的背景。我父亲是农民，母亲是表亲。所以，这不像

very rural background myself. My dad is a farmer, and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like

当一个真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会发生什么？我知道这听起来像是个糟糕笑话的开头，但九年前这确实是我的现实。

What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago.

我通常只做常规单口喜剧，但这次有点不同。

I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.

舞台上站着一位喜剧演员，讲述着没人预料会听到的故事。

On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear.

2015年7月22日，一名23岁男子杀害了他的家人。然后他来到了我家。

On 07/22/2015, a 23 year old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house.

那么当一个真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会得到什么？一档名为《妙语连珠》的新播客，单口喜剧与谋杀案在此同台竞技。现已上线，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《妙语连珠》。

So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand up comedy and murder take center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1975年12月29日，拉瓜迪亚机场。

12/29/1975, LaGuardia Airport.

假日出行高峰。父母拖着行李，孩子们紧攥他们的圣诞新玩具。然后在晚上6点33分，一切改变了。

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then at 06:33PM, everything changed.

TWA航站楼发生了一起爆炸事件。

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal.

显然，爆炸实际上推动了金属玻璃。

Apparently, explosion actually impelled metal glass.

伤者正被抬上救护车。现场一片混乱，极其混乱。

The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

随之而来的是一种新型敌人的出现，它将长期存在——恐怖主义。《法律与秩序：刑事司法系统》回归了。第二季中，我们将聚焦于一个隐藏在众目睽睽之下、更难预测甚至更难阻止的威胁。请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听新一季的《法律与秩序：刑事司法系统》。

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay, terrorism. Law and Order Criminal Justice System is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight, that's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of Law and Order: Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我男朋友的教授过于友好，现在我严重怀疑他们。

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious.

哦，等等，山姆。也许她男朋友只是想多拿点学分。

Oh, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit.

好吧，达科塔，现在是《Okay Story Time》播客的返校周，我们很快就会知道答案。这位听众写道：我男朋友最近经常和他年轻的教授待在一起。他不觉得有问题，但我不信任她。现在他坚持要我们互相了解，但我只想让她消失。

Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the Okay Story Time podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

等等，这难道不违反学校规定吗？听起来完全不合规矩。

Now hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate.

据这位听众说，这是她男朋友的前任教授，而且他们同龄。那他们更有可能在搞外遇。但他坚称他们之间没什么。

Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor and they're the same age. Then it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them.

我是说，你

I mean, do you

相信他吗？好吧，他显然正努力让这个人相信他，因为他现在希望他们俩见面。

believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet.

那么我们能否查明这个人的男友是否真的和他的教授有染？

So do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not?

要收听爆炸性结局，请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《Okay Storytime》播客。

To hear the explosive finale, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是凯蒂·库里克，我想向你们介绍我最喜欢的新播客之一。它就是

Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric, and I wanna tell you about one of my new favorite podcast. It's

名为

called

《一场真正的好哭》，由了不起的罗迪·德弗卢基亚主持，他是一位植物基厨师、企业家，现在又成为播客主持人，将引导你一步步踏上自我发现的旅程。在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听罗迪·德弗卢基亚的《一场真正的好哭》。迈克·怀特，当你回顾自己所谓的‘作品集’时，你是否注意到这些故事之间存在某种贯穿的线索？

A Really Good Cry with the amazing Roddy DeVlukia, a plant based chef, entrepreneur and now a podcast host who will guide you through a journey of self discovery one tier at a time. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Roddy DeVlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When you look back at your, quote, unquote, body of work, Mike White, do you notice any kind of thread that connects a lot of these stories when you think about it?

我不知道。我？我有线索吗？我不确定。这些作品很独特，我为此感到自豪。

I don't know. Me? I have a thread. I don't know. I and they're I mean, it's a idiosyncratic body of work, and I and I I'm proud.

我一直有个想法，就是不会把自己看得太重而错过任何机会。这就是为什么我参加了《幸存者》，参加了《极速前进》，接了一些我不确定的工作。你知道，现在听起来我可能有点自以为是。

I like, I one thing that I always was like, I'm not gonna take myself so seriously that I miss out on anything. Like and that's how that's why I did Survivor. It's why I did Amazing Race. It's why I've taken jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like, I always thought that I I mean, if now now I do sound like a whatever.

我只是觉得我一直认为自己有才华，总觉得自己有所贡献，就像你说的，我很好胜。看到同龄人抓住机遇获得大量关注和成功时，我会想，我也能做到，我比他们更好或至少不差。

I just you know, it's like the I always thought I was talented. I always felt like I had something to offer. I always felt like I was you know, like I like you said, I was com you know, I've said I'm competitive. Like, I would see peers who, like, you know, caught the wave and got a lot of, like, attention and success, and I was like, I could do that. I'm bet I'm I'm as good or better than those people.

当然，这是在好莱坞闯荡所需的魄力。但同时，我也遇到过一些我仰慕的早期从业者，他们很多人看起来并不快乐，或者似乎为了保护自己的形象而过于严肃。我觉得我们的工作是有意义的，但从某种意义上说，我们其实是在‘儿童区’工作。你懂我的意思吗？

And and, you know, of course, that's that's the that's the gumption that you need to get through Hollywood. But, like and so so but at the same time, I was just like, I'm not gonna be I've I met people early on who had careers that I I admired, and a lot of them seemed miserable or they seemed like they were really in a, you know, protective of their you know, like, they I don't know. They that in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're in the we're in the we're in the you know, I I I think our work is meaningful, but, like, we are in the in the sort of we're in the kids section in a sense. You know what I mean?

我们不是...我们不是，你知道的...你是

We're not we're not, you know You're

不是在治愈癌症。

not curing cancer.

是啊。我们不是在治愈癌症。我们不在政策领域，不是政策专家。我们更像是...你知道，我们处在娱乐板块。明白我的意思吗？

Yeah. We're not curing cancer. We're not in the policy we're not policy wonks. We're not know, it's like we are, you know, we're in the we're in the entertainment section. You know what mean?

所以我当时就想，我只是...我不只想成功，想让人们认为我有才华，我还希望回首人生时，觉得生活本身很酷，做过的事情也很酷，而不仅仅是工作成就。当我审视所有这些不同方面时，感觉就像个大杂烩——一堆看似混乱的履历，但每段经历都让我收获不同，为我实现了不同的意义。

So it's like and so I just was like, I I just don't I wanna I wanna be successful, and I want people to think I'm talented, but I also I wanna I I wanna live a life that I look back on, and the life itself was cool, and the and the things I did were were cool, and it's not just my work. So so, like, I look at those all those different things, and it's like, it's it's like an eclectic. It's like, it's kind of a hot mess, like, bunch of credits, but I I each one of them, I I got different things out of and and and, yeah, had served different purposes for me.

但现在的处境完全不同了，迈克。好莱坞肯定人人都在说：迈克·怀特现在可以随心所欲了，想做什么都行——这反而让你有点不自在吧？

But right now, you are in a very different position, Mike, because I'm sure everyone in Hollywood is saying that Mike White, he can write his own ticket now. He can kinda do whatever he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable.

呃...我不确定。感觉就像在夏威夷醒来时，凯蒂·库里克突然出现告诉你'一切都变了'。其实没有...我明白的。

Well, I I don't know. Feel like this is like I it's like I'm waking up in Hawaii, and it's like, Katie Couric is here to tell you everything has changed. Everything has No. I know.

我忍不住觉得你像个心理治疗师，迈克。

I can't I feel like you're a therapist, Mike.

不。不过感谢你这么说。实际上...如果真是这样，我感觉自己就像个长期准备击球的人。我做过些自豪的事，但总是逆流而上——筹资金、找演员、搞定各种环节...这固然有趣，但也确实消耗精力。如果现在能更顺利地实现创作想法，我已经准备好做更多，也有更多想表达的。尤其是最后一季，真的耗费了我大量心血。

No. Well, I I appreciate you saying that, and I and I, you know, I actually feel like I if that's true, I feel like I I feel like I'm, like, somebody who's been ready to be at bat for a long time, and I've done, you know, like you know, and I've I've done things I'm proud of, but, like, I've it's always been swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor, to get the thing, to the you know, like, it's it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like if it's a easier road to do the things I wanna do, I'm ready to do more, and I have more to say. And I you know, like and it's and and this was hard. It took a lot out of me, especially this last season.

但这个

But this

一直是我梦寐以求的事业，所以很感激现在有机会实现它。

is what I always wanted to do, and and and and so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it.

玩得开心吗，迈克？

Are you having fun, Mike?

我很开心。和你聊天很开心。我现在在夏威夷。你知道，我度过了这个季度，大家都在讨论它，这很有趣。但我也需要稍微重启一下。

I am having fun. I'm having fun talking to you. I'm here in Hawaii. I'm you know, I've gotten through the the season, and everyone's, you know, chatting about it, so that's fun. But I I also I need to reboot a little bit.

我我我油箱里的油不多了，所以我需要想办法，不知道，随便吧，断开连接，刷新一下之类的。

I I I don't have a lot of gas in the tank, so I I I need to figure out how to, I don't know, whatever, unplug and refresh or something.

我们来聊聊《白莲花度假村》这一季吧，因为我担心，迈克。我担心《白莲花》里的角色，我真的很担心。我真的很担心波西亚，我真的很担心坦尼娅。

Let's talk about this current season of White Lotus because I'm worried, Mike. I'm worried about the characters on White I'm really worried. I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Portia. I'm really worried about Tanya.

我担心的是阿尔比吗？我是说，我担心所有人。你对我们做了什么，迈克？

I'm worried about is it Albie? Mean, I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us, Mike?

嗯，有趣的是。我喜欢这种形式，因为，就像，我喜欢慢炖的感觉，你知道，所以很有趣，你懂的。我认为这一季和上一季的乐趣在于，你希望创造出非常可信的角色和情境，某种程度上能通过'胡扯检测器'，然后就开始，就像，调高热度。就像在过山车上，你感觉，'这要冲下去了'。我们真的要冲下去了。所以，是的。

Well, the fun thing about yeah. What I like about this format is that, like, I like I kinda like a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun where you you know, I think the pleasure of this one and certainly this season and last season too, I think, is, like, you know, you hope you create very credible characters and you create a situation that, like, you're like, it passes the bullshit detector to some degree and and that and then and then just start to, like, cook up the you know, like, turn up the heat. Just so it's like, you know, it's like almost like when you're on the on, yeah, roller coaster and you're like, and you're like, up and you're like, this is gonna go really far down. Like, we are really going to. So so yeah.

我认为结局应该能满足情感的宣泄。而且，是的，会有很多咬牙切齿的时刻，确实如此。但你应该担心。

And I think the finale, hopefully, will satisfy the catharsis. And, I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of teeth, and it's yes. But but yeah. You should be worried.

我一直在想那个被推下山的女人的故事。哦不。我也一直在担心那个俗气金融男的妻子说，'你会死在这里的。他们得把你拖出去。'我一直在想，哦不，这是什么意思？

I keep thinking about that story of the woman that fell that they threw off the mountain. Uh-oh. I also keep worrying about the the the wife of the the cheesy finance guy saying, oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have to drag you out of this place. Keep thinking, uh-oh, what does that mean?

我注意到这些事情是对的吗？

Am I right to pick up on some of these things?

我是说，有些是为了结局故意铺垫的，有些则是误导，让人们觉得自己像马普尔小姐一样找到了线索，但你需要更多线索。你知道，结局不会那么明显。但我觉得即使你猜到了，事情如何崩溃还是会让你惊讶。

I mean, well, some of them are intentional to build the for the finale, and some are a little bit misdirect so that people think, yeah, you wanna you want people to, like, feel like they're, you know, miss Marple and they've got the clues, but you you need extra clues. You know, it's not so obvious what happens. But I I think people I think even if you guess, you're gonna be surprised with just how it all falls apart.

我特别喜欢你如何将艺术元素交替运用。首先，很明显你痴迷于那些水面镜头，我也非常喜欢。但我更爱那些画作、工艺品、建筑，还有那个陶瓷人头的特写——你反复使用的同一个陶瓷人头角色。请告诉我你选择用它推动剧情、埋下伏笔或呼应当下情节的思考过程。

I love the way you use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously, you're obsessed with kind of those water shots, which I really like too. But I love the painting, the artifacts, the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, that same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to again and again. Tell me your thought process about using that as a way to propel the story forward or to foreshadow things or to echo what might be going on at the time. Yeah.

你能

Can you

看出我一直在非常专注地观看吗？

tell I've been watching very intently?

是的，太棒了。是这样的，当我抵达《明日测试》取景地时，发现西西里到处都有那种头像雕塑。整个季度的创作灵感都源于这些头像——我四处考察时它们简直无处不在。

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I well, the Test of Tomorrow's, when I got there, I was like because they're everywhere in Sicily, those heads, and and the the story behind it, it has to and the reason for the whole season was because of these heads. I was like because I would go around, like, these heads are everywhere.

这些头像背后暗含着通奸、暴力和性嫉妒的主题。我当即决定：必须把第二季改成意大利式歌剧般的性嫉妒故事线。毕竟观众最想看的就是这个。

What and it was about adultery and violence and sexual jealousy. And I was like, that just I I had a different idea for the second season. I was no. We we gotta do an operatic, like, Italian sexual jealousy storyline. I mean, that's and it's like, that's that's what people wanna see anyway.

不过这份工作最令人羡慕的部分是：我以拍摄《白莲花》的名义进入西西里，当地拥有豪华宫殿的富人都愿意让我参观宅邸。虽然最终只选用了两处场景，但那些隐藏在普通建筑后的奢华宫殿完全超乎想象。

But, also, this is the part of my job that people should be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm telling them I'm doing White Lotus. All of the rich, like, Sicilians who have these palazzos are willing to let me come in and, like, snoop around their house. I got to see all these events. So, like, two of them ended up in the show, but, like, you walk around and you have no idea that behind this, like, you know, edifice is, like, this incredible palazzo.

很多宫殿都很隐蔽。获得拍摄许可后，我们像消防水枪般疯狂记录：墙上的每幅艺术品都要特写，每个细节都要捕捉——对于我这种痴迷古典混搭风豪华内饰的人来说，简直置身天堂。

They're all a lot of them are hidden. It's like and then to be able to, like, get access to those and see them, and I was like, we kinda like know, so when we would get into these places, I was like, we gotta shoot we gotta just, like, fire hose this down. Like, we gotta get every piece of art on on the walls. Like, we gotta do push ins on all of the you know? So for someone who, like, you know, likes interior you know, whatever.

就是那种经典、繁复、折衷主义的富豪宫殿风格，我完全沉醉其中。

Like, these kind of, like, classic maximalist, eclectic, like, you know, like, rich, you know, palazzas. Like, I was just, I was in heaven.

所以我必须物尽其用。

So I just felt like I had to make the most of it.

那绝对是个非凡的拍摄地。那是真实酒店吗？当时是否空置？请聊聊这个取景地的情况。

And, I mean, it must have been an extraordinary place to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that hotel vacant as well? Or Yeah. Tell me about the location.

我想去那家酒店。

I wanna go to that hotel.

是啊，你应该去。那是圣多梅尼科宫酒店，非常有历史底蕴——最初是修道院后来改建成酒店，但作为酒店运营已经很久很久了。《迷魂记》就在那里取景。这地方太棒了，要知道我们考察过很多酒店，首先修道院的部分就自带一种独特的氛围。

Yeah. You should. It's it's the San Domenico Palace, which is, like, a very historical it was originally a convent and then it turned into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite a long long time. La Ventura was shot there. It's, like, it's it's it's amazing because, obviously, you know, I got we we looked at a lot of different hotels, and it's just like, first, the convent part of it just gives it this added kind of, you know, vibe.

然后你会看到阶梯状的山坡上散布着各种经典欧式别墅，一侧是古希腊剧院，前方是爱奥尼亚海，还有常年喷烟的埃特纳火山。你会觉得：如果要去欧洲，要的就是这般景致。我强烈推荐陶尔米纳，还有西西里岛本身。

And then, you know, you see these terraced hills with all these different, you know, villas, you know, that are so classic and European. And and then you have the Greek theater on one side, and then the Ionian Sea in front, and then the Mount Etna, which is literally, you know, belching smoke half the time. And you're just like, this is if we're going to go to Europe, this is what you go for. You go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly recommend Tarmina and and Sicily itself.

在那里待多久都不够。才几天我就觉得：景点都看完了，但那种随时间沉淀的独特氛围会慢慢征服你。

It's it's like, you really can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know, it was just after a few days, it was like I was like, okay. We've done the sightseeing, but, like, it's just like then there's just this, like, vibe over time that just really seduces you.

你们是在西西里找到露西亚和米娅的吗？

Did you find Lucia and Mia in Sicily?

不，是在罗马找到的。扮演露西亚的西莫娜其实来自那不勒斯，米娅的扮演者来自罗马。我们优秀的意大利选角导演提供了很多人选，这两位加上演经理的萨布丽娜·因帕恰托里都才华横溢，合作非常愉快。

No. We we found them in Rome. Simona, who plays Lucia, is actually from Naples, and Mia is from Rome. But we had a great set of casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options, and those those two, and Sabrina Impatiatory, who plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and so fun to work with.

确实，她们演得很有趣。你说过这部剧讽刺了白人特权阶级，意图是'戳熊屁股'但保持人文视角。迈克，具体说说？

Yeah. They were fun to watch. I'll tell you that. And I know that you have said that the show satirizes wealthy white privilege, and you've said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the bear, but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike.

你指的是什么？

What did you mean?

'戳熊屁股'这个说法...我确实在讽刺特权，但第一季里我也在试探某些界限。我想同时呈现对父权制的批判，以及那些人们私下议论却不愿公开的观点——试图保持平衡：这个观点似乎合理，但等等，你这么说其实是在为自己辩护。

Well, poke the bear, I don't, you know, obviously, you're I'm satirizing Privilege, but, you know, especially with the first season, I also was poking the bear as far as some of the I don't know. Like, I wanted to give voice to both, you know, the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these things that, you know, we we are discussing, you know, and have been discussing with fervor the last couple years, but also give voice to the people that are you know, it's like, you know, I have a hearing you know, like like, some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people don't wanna say in public, but, like, behind closed doors and try to, you know, like, not you know, make it so it you're kind of walking the line where, okay. Well, that sort of is a fair point. And then, like, oh, yeah. But you're saying that because this is you know, you're you're defending you know, you're on your heels.

我希望让对话不是非黑即白，而是层次丰富到让观众觉得'这演的就是我'，同时又被挑战认知。当争论双方都有人力挺或痛恨这部剧时，我就知道任务完成了。

So, like, trying to make it so it's not so such a simple predigested conversation and and and have those conversations be lively and, like, you know Multilayered. Multilayered enough that, like, people feel like, oh, they're they're being seen and then and it's still challenged. And so and that was that was what I was trying to do and, you know, like and and the fact that, like, people on both sides of some of these arguments, like, championed the show or also, like, hated the show made me feel like I did my job.

是的。所以你确实展现了人们在私下里会进行的一些棘手对话。我认为，迈克，这正是这部剧及其对话的真实性所在——你会感觉这就是人们真正在谈论的内容，而不是为了站在某个议题的正确立场而遵循某种预设的对话模式。

Yeah. So you're you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's what contributes, Mike, to the realness of the show and the dialogue that, you know, you feel like this is what people really are talking about and that you're not following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the right side of any issue.

没错。因为我甚至不...我甚至不觉得...归根结底，我不认为戏剧工作者的职责是...这不是一个传递信息的机器。如果我想传达信息，我会选择不同的媒介或形式。这实际上是为我们世界中存在的不同人群发声，并尽力让对话显得立体丰满。

Yeah. Because I don't even I'm I don't even it's like, ultimately, it's like I don't think it's the dramatist's job to it's I I don't think it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying to make a message, then I would be communicating in a different medium or a different kind of it's really about giving voice to the different people who exist in our world and try, you know, and do my best to to make it feel like it's, you know, a dimensional conversation.

广告之后，我们将探讨为何迈克如此沉迷于人类行为的灰色地带。

After the break, why Mike spends so much time in the gray areas of human behavior?

我是埃德。大家跟埃德打个招呼。你好，

My name is Ed. Everyone say hello, Ed. Hello,

埃德。我来自一个非常

Ed. I'm from a very

偏远的农村。我父亲是农民，母亲是表亲。所以，这不像

rural background myself. My dad is a farmer, and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like

当一位真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会发生什么？这听起来像是个糟糕笑话的开头，但九年前这确实是我的真实经历。

What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago.

我通常只做常规单口喜剧，但这次有点不同。

I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.

舞台上站着一位讲述着出乎所有人意料故事的喜剧演员。

On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear.

7月22日，一名23岁男子杀害了他的家人。然后他来到了我家。

On July 22, a 23 year old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house.

那么，当一位真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会发生什么？答案是一档名为《妙语连珠》的新播客，单口喜剧与谋杀案在此同台竞技。现已上线，您可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何播客平台收听《妙语连珠》。

So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand up comedy and murder take center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1975年12月29日，拉瓜迪亚机场。

12/29/1975, LaGuardia Airport.

假日出行高峰。父母们拖着行李，孩子们紧攥圣诞新玩具。直到晚上6点33分，一切骤然改变。

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then at 06:33PM, everything changed.

环球航空航站楼发生爆炸。

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal.

显然爆炸冲击波将金属玻璃碎片四散飞射。

Apparently, explosion actually impelled metal glass.

伤者正被抬上救护车，现场一片混乱。

The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

事件之后，一种新型敌人浮出水面，且将长期存在——恐怖主义。《法律与秩序：刑事司法系统》强势回归。第二季我们将聚焦潜伏于日常的威胁，它更难以预测，甚至更难阻止。敬请收听新一季《法律与秩序：刑事司法系统》，您可通过iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何播客平台收听。

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay, terrorism. Law and Order criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight, that's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of Law and Order, Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我男友的教授过分热情，现在我非常怀疑。

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious.

等等，萨姆，说不定你男友只是想争取额外学分呢？

Oh, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit.

达科塔，现在是《故事时间》播客的返校主题周，我们很快会揭晓答案。这位听众写道：我男友最近总和他年轻的教授待在一起。他觉得没问题，但我不信任她。现在他坚持要我们互相了解，可我只想让她消失。

Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the Okay Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

等等，这难道不违反学校规定吗？听起来完全不合规矩。

Now hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate.

嗯，据这个人说，这是她男友以前的教授，而且他们同龄。

Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age.

那他们更有可能是在出轨了。

Then it's even more likely that they're cheating.

他坚称他们之间清清白白。

He insists there's nothing between them.

话说，你相信他吗？

I mean, do you believe him?

他确实在努力让这个人相信他，因为他现在想让他们俩见面。

Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet.

所以我们能弄清楚这个人男友是否真的和教授出轨了吗？

So do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not?

想听爆炸性结局，请收听iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或其他播客平台上的《Okay Storytime》播客。

To hear the explosive finale, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是凯蒂·库里克，想向你们推荐我最爱的新播客之一《一场痛快的哭泣》。主持人罗迪·德弗卢基亚是位素食主厨、企业家，现在又化身播客主播，将带你踏上层层深入的自我探索之旅。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或其他平台收听《一场痛快的哭泣》。我知道很多人都注意到你笔下的角色——他们大多不讨喜或性格复杂，有些特质令人欣赏，有些则让人反感，这种矛盾感很真实。

Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric, and I wanna tell you about one of my new favorite podcast. It's called A Really Good Cry with the amazing Roddy DeVlukia, a plant based chef, entrepreneur and now a podcast host who will guide you through a journey of self discovery one tier at a time. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Roddy DeVlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know that a lot of people have taken note that your characters, so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or there are certain things you like and certain things you really don't like, so you feel conflicted.

我对坦雅就充满矛盾。上季结尾时我非常讨厌她，现在却不讨厌了。她可怜得让人心疼，但又有种讨人喜欢的特质。

And I feel very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the end of last season, and now I don't dislike her. I feel sorry for her because she's quite pathetic, but she's also sort of lovable too.

是的。嗯，我我我我是说没错。詹妮弗·柯立芝本身就讨人喜欢，没得说。所以她确实自带可爱属性。但第一季里我特别想呈现双线叙事——一边是她作为寻找爱情的弱势群体，同时要面对母亲去世的痛苦。

Yeah. Well, I I I I mean yeah. I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable, period. And and so she brings the lovability for sure. But, yeah, I I do think it's like I I especially the first season, you know, I I wanted there to be two tracks, which is, you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love and dealing with the fact that her mom died and, you know, the pain of that.

所以观众会一边为她加油，另一边她又像在另一个女人眼前吊着胡萝卜，给对方虚幻的希望，自己却反复无常。我觉得这很写实，就像我遇到过的一些人——不论男女——他们总觉得自己是受害者，却...

And so on one side, you're rooting for her, and then there's this other story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this other woman's, you know, eyes and and future and and making her feel like there's hope for something, and then she's kind of a flake. And that just seems very true to life too for me to some of these women that I've met and or, you know, men or two. But just like where, you know, they see themselves as a victim in some sense and and then

没意识到自己也可以是施害者。或是救世主。

they don't savior. Or a savior.

对。或是救世主。他们看不到自己也在伤害别人，看不到自己其实掌握着主动权，甚至...某种程度上是自己搞砸了一切。

Yeah. Or a savior. Yeah. And and they don't see how that they can also be victimizing and that they that they, yeah, that they they have agency and that they're, yeah, that they are somehow blowing it.

我们快速聊聊其他角色吧。聊过米娅、露西亚和瓦伦蒂娜，说说波西亚？网上关于她衣着的讨论可有意思了，迈克你看到了吗？

Let let me ask you about some of the other characters in kind of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia, and we talked about Valentina. Let's talk about Portia. And I love this discussion online about Portia's clothes. Have you seen this, Mike?

看到了。嗯。

I have. Yeah. Yeah.

说她穿得像Z世代二手店淘来的。

That she dresses like a Gen Z thrift store.

就像，

Like,

完全不成套。这算时尚吗？你怎么看？太有趣了。

nothing really goes together. Like, it does it look good or not? I mean, what do you think of all that? It's so funny.

这要归功于——虽然剧本已有设定，但演员海莉·露·理查森和服装设计师亚历克斯·比弗德才是造型的灵魂人物。我对女装时尚不太在行，不过确实参与了决策。我审核过，监督过，但主要还是他们的功劳。

Well, a lot of the credit goes to I mean, that was her character on the page, but Hailey Lou Richardson, who's the actress, and then Alex Beaverde, who is our costume designer, you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And, you know, I'm I'm a little bit, like, I'm women's fashion is not my go to, but I but I but I I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved. I supervised, but I but yeah.

我只是觉得，对我来说，波西亚是我经常看到的这类人，这也是我在网上感受到的——我觉得有趣的是，很多人都在说，富人嘛，你知道的，那些糟糕的有钱人。富人很可怕。就像，只要我展示富人有多坏，就能证明这部剧的合理性，故事的寓意就是富人很坏之类的。当然，你知道，这其中也有真实成分，确实有很多富人在搞砸这个世界。所以，你懂吧？

I I just think that, you know, to me, Portia is somebody who I see this a lot, and this was something that I I feel like online, I think is the thing that I I find interesting is that there's a lot of people who are like, rich you know, like, bad bad rich people. Rich people are terrible. You know, like, it's this like, this kind of like, you know, that that that I that I'm allowed to make the show as long as I show how bad rich people are, that the moral of the story is that rich people are bad or something. And it's like and and and, obviously, you know, there is there's truth to that, like, a lot of rich people are fucking up the world. And so, like, I you know?

但我也觉得，你知道，波西亚更像是一个载体，用来探索她如何看待坦雅身上的那些糟糕特质——她认为如果自己拥有坦雅的条件，就能把生活打理得更好，会比坦雅做得更出色。但你会发现她其实以另一种方式同样迷失了方向，某种程度上她就像是坦雅的迷你版。而且——

But but I also you know, you you and so, like, I guess Portia was, like, a a a vehicle to explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad character traits and that she you know, if and if she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together and she would be she you know, like, she would be she would do it better than Tanya. But you see how in her own way, she's she is kinda lost in a in a similar way. She's actually kind of a mini me to Tanya. And and

坦雅对波西亚说过：你让我想起了年轻时的自己。

Tanya I tells Portia, you remind me a lot of myself when I was younger.

没错。

Yeah.

但我也认为波西亚非常具有Z世代特征——她有点迷茫，不知道自己想做什么。她没什么明确目标，正在摸索阶段。你认识这样的年轻人吗？他们是否帮助塑造了这个角色？

But I also think Portia is very Gen Z in that she's sort of a little bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do. She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure it out. Did that I mean, do you know young people like that that kind of helped shape that character?

是的。虽然不想被批判，但我确实注意到年轻一代有种尝试不同身份的倾向，仿佛通过身份表达自我——无论是谈论自己的方式、穿着打扮还是什么——是件很勇敢的事。但归根结底，这其实是一种自我沉溺，反而会加剧他们的迷茫。我觉得越是沿着这种思路谈论和思考自己，实际上越会恶化你想解决的问题。波西亚身上就带有这种特质。

Yeah. I do think I mean, again, I don't want to get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this younger generation a desire to try on identities and feel like there's something like, I don't know, courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself or the clothes you wear or whatever. But, like, ultimately, it is very navel gazing and it adds to, I think, adds to malaise. I think it actually it makes your it's like the more you start, like, yeah, like, talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines, it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve. So, like, I think a little bit of Portia comes through in that.

我的意思是，我不想显得完全...但她就是那种'我想要这个，又不知道是不是只要获得满足感就行'的状态。这种感觉...可能是我年龄偏见吧，也许我已经变成那种爱说教的人了。

I mean, I I I I, you know, like, I don't wanna think that I'm totally you know, but, like, she's just like, I want this, and I don't know if I just wanna be fulfilled. And it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about that that is just yeah. It's maybe it's yeah. Maybe it's ageism. Maybe I'm just like, I've become the person who makes it.

但我年轻时就觉得，人需要跳出自我才能找到勇气，必须停止这种自我凝视才能真正成长。如果总是盯着内在、不停自拍、给自己贴新标签、只在乎穿着...感觉这条路最终会走进死胡同。

But, like, I just when I was younger, was just like, it's it to me, I still feel like it's like you need to like move outside of yourself to like find courage and move outside of your own, you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really then fully develop, you know? It's like if you're just always looking inside and doing selfies and and calling yourself a different thing, and it's all about the clothes you're wearing. You know? It's like that that just feels like that's that's going to be a dead end road.

这是关于波西亚的。那么哈珀、伊森、卡梅隆和达芙妮这个四人组呢？不得不说，我觉得奥布瑞·普拉扎是我在全剧中最喜欢的角色。我喜欢她那种永恒的倦怠感，现在已经完全演变成另一种状态了。而且你通过伊森和哈珀探讨嫉妒心理的手法很棒。

So that's Portia. And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne? I have to say, I think Aubrey Plaza is my favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual state of ennui that is now kind of morphed into something else altogether. And I love what you're doing about jealousy with Ethan and and Harper.

能谈谈哈珀这个角色吗？

So tell me a little bit about Harper's character.

嗯，奥布里是我的朋友，我想让她参演这部剧。最初部分源于——你知道，奥布里是个复杂有趣的人，但人们对她有种刻板印象，就像她刚出场时那样，可能是外界对她的预判，认为她加入白莲花世界就该如此。但随着剧情发展，她展现出更多脆弱面，那份强硬其实是种伪装。我想通过这条故事线探讨的是——这关乎布拉德的身份地位，但更涉及我们在关系中总在比较：别人的感情状态、他们拥有的东西、他们看似做得更好或更糟的地方。开场时我刻意营造了一种错觉...

Well, I I Aubrey is a friend of mine, and I wanted to get her in the show. So a little bit of it started with just, like you know, Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person, and and but she's kind of known for this sort of dead like, the way she comes in at the beginning is kind of, like, maybe the way people see her or what thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins the White Lotus world, but then start to show these other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her tough ness is a little bit of a front. And and but I liked you know, like, what I was trying to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it has to do with it's kind of what Brad's status was as far as status, but, like, with sec like, whether we're always comparing ourselves in in our relationship to other people's relationships and what they have and what they it seems like they you know, like, what they do better or what they do worse and how how and I was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning where it's like you think, okay.

比如把明星设定成NPR听众那样的自由派，你会觉得'啊这是我们要共鸣的好人'，而另一对夫妇显得肤浅。但后来剧情反转——或许那对看似疯癫的夫妻反而更享受生活？事情可能没表面那么简单。当然我不想剧透结局...

Here's star, like, NPR listening, like, you know, liberal like, you know, like, these are the good guys that we're gonna relate to, and then this other couple, they're so vacuous. And, you know, it's like but then kind of playing a little bit with which is maybe that other couple is, like, dysfunctional and crazy. It's like, well, they seem to be having more fun. Like, I you know, like, that that that maybe, you know, like, maybe it's not as as simple as all of that. And and I don't wanna give away the ending.

不过最终呈现方式确实暗含了我的创作意图——不是直白说教，而是试图展现些出人意料的东西。

But, yeah, how it all how it all lands is kind of a little bit of insight into what I'm trying to not say, but, like, try yeah. Try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected, I guess.

这似乎也是对科技金融从业者的某种讽刺。

It also seems to be a bit of a commentary on tech and finance pros.

是啊，其实我...

Yeah. Well, I just

像是新贵阶层对金钱、地位和竞争的执念。

Like think it new was like money, new money, status, competition.

没错。

Yeah.

那种经济依附关系下的微妙博弈——卡梅隆需要伊森，因为后者在科技圈赚得盆满钵满。这种动态很扭曲对吧？

That weird sort of dance you play when you're financially dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort of needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of money in tech. Right? There's something Yeah. Weird about that dynamic?

作为男性，这些年来我听过太多类似对话。我住在布伦特伍德附近，常去那里的乡村市集，听到律师、金融人士和我们这行的人称兄道弟。但每段对话都充满雄性炫耀，他们暗中较劲谁赚得更多...这种戏码总让我觉得可笑，毕竟我本人...算了。

Well, I definitely I as a guy, I've been privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live, like, next to Brentwood, so there's just, like, you know, the Brentwood Country Mart where, like, lawyers and finance people and whatever, like, people in our my industry or whatever, and how they how they're buddies. But, like, even in the in every conversation, just sense this peacocking and, like, they're trying to figure out, like, where they stand as far as who's making the more money, you know, who makes like, where yeah. It's and so that's always very funny to me because I I don't I I've whatever. It's yeah.

所以剧情里这对所谓朋友，在如此激烈的竞争下，真的存在友谊吗？

So, yeah, I was kinda playing with, like, yeah, they're friends, but, like, are they friends? Like, what are they like, like, the competition is so heavy that it's just like, can they ever really be friends? You know?

是的。我觉得那种四人组合非常迷人。而且我超爱F·莫里·亚伯拉罕，我是说，顺便一提，能请到他参演《白莲花度假村》真是锦上添花。还有从《黑道家族》来的迈克尔·因佩里奥利——能帮我确认下名字吗？是迈克尔·因佩里奥利。

Yeah. I find that whole sort of foursome fascinating. And I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by the way, what a what a feather in your cap to get him to be in White Lotus. Then you've got from the Sopranos, you've got Michael Imperial can help me with that. Michael Imperiali.

对。还有饰演他儿子的演员。然后是扮演阿尔比的亚当·迪马科。这样你就有了三代意大利裔美国人的故事线。

Yeah. And who plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco, who plays Albie. So you have these three generations of Italian Americans.

没错。首先，莫里和迈克尔...我本来就是普赖尔的超级粉丝，合作之后更是崇拜他们。

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, yes. Murray and Michael are I'm a huge I was huge fans of Pryor and then working with them even more so.

莫里已经82岁了，却依然对表演和叙事充满热忱，这很激励人心。迈克尔则是我合作过最随和、最大方的演员之一，堪称业界典范。至于亚当·迪马科，那孩子简直甜得像块糖。

Murray is, like, you know, he's I think he's 82 years old, and he's so still, like, enamored with the process and acting and and storytelling. And it it's inspiring. And Michael is one of the most he's in the pantheon of, like, the easiest, most, like, generous actors I've ever worked with. So, like, those two are incredible. And then, of course, Adam DeMarco's one of the sweetest kids.

他们是个很棒的组合。但就主题而言，我想探讨男性性意识、欲望和性别角色——关于男性在浪漫关系中的定位，他们对待女性的方式，以及用经典手法呈现不同世代的态度差异。尽管他们都在尝试适应新型两性关系话语，但某种程度上仍困于固有模式。

So, like, they were a great group. But, like, contextually, as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like, know, I wanted know, it's kind of getting into male sexuality and desire and male role you know, the role like, you know, men's roles when it comes to romance and how they deal with women and and just voicing the different generational attitudes in a kind of classic way and and how they're all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex and and interactions with women, that they're all kind of trapped in a certain sense too.

我们播客的制作人德里克提到，本季展现了极其多样的性关系纠葛。正如开场动画配合欢快主题曲逐步展现的淫靡艺术那样，剧集本身也层层揭示人类如何体验、压抑或放纵性欲——甚至两者兼有。这是德里克的观察，我想知道你对此的看法，以及你如何试图呈现不同类型的关系。

Derek, who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers, talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of sexual relationships and entanglements. And you were just talking about sex. Just as the opening title sequence portrays, increasing debauchery in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it or give into it or both even. These are Derek's observations. And I'm curious what you think of that and sort of how you were trying to portray different kinds of relationships.

比如你刻画的性工作者露西亚和米娅，就与影视书籍中的常规形象截然不同。

And for example, you portray sex workers, you know, Lucia and Mia, very differently than kind of what we normally see in TV, books, or movies.

关于片头设计，我要求从华美的宫殿壁画开始，然后在角落逐渐出现顽皮甚至猥琐的细节，到最后变成博斯画风般的肉欲狂欢。第二季也是如此——开始是压抑的度假者，但随着西西里岛这个欲望熔炉的催化，最终变成了充满情欲的剧集。

Well, I you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know, it should start with these kind of pretty, you know, like like, you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls, and then you start seeing little things in the corners and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even kind of creeper pervy, like, things that are happening in in the margins. And then by the end of the credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of, like, just, you know, the and where, you know, the carnality of it and and the desire of it is is, like, front and center. And I felt like that with the season two, which is, like, you start off and it's, like, you know, the little bit of these repressed people trying to, like, you know, figure out, like, you know, how to have a good vacation. And that, like, being in the in in situ of Sicily and and in this kind of little crucible that, like, the desire and you start seeing desire in everyone, and it's yeah. It becomes a very horny show.

感觉就像...特别是...虽然我不确定以后会常写这类故事。指导亲密戏和拍裸戏确实不是我的舒适区...

And just felt like it was like and especially, like, you know, like and as far as, like yeah. I mean and I I I yeah. I just I don't I don't think I'll always write stories like this. It's not certainly my wheelhouse, like, directing scenes of, like, intimacy between people and, like, getting people nude and stuff, it's just like was like, you know, like, I was

就像...这并非我的天赋所在。

like, this is not something I'm born Yeah. I

就像是，你们想怎样都行。谢天谢地，你知道，当我雇用的演员是表现欲强的人时，他们通常比我更放得开。所以他们会说，哦，你

was like, whatever you guys wanna do. Like, what's thankfully, you know, I when you hire actors that are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am. So, like, they're like, oh, you

想让我

want me to

脱掉上衣？好啊。当然。如果那样合适的话。你确定这样没问题吗？

take my top off? Yeah. Sure. If that's good. Are you sure that's okay?

对。所以，就像这样。但我觉得展现女性有欲望的一面其实很有趣，因为我觉得这在戏剧中常常要么是被害者形象，要么是处女形象，或者类似《欲望都市》那种话痨式的表现。但真正感受到欲望和冲动，对我来说才更贴近真实生活。

Yeah. So, like so yeah. So that was but I but I but I do feel like it was like it it's fun to show I actually think it's fun to show women horny women because I feel like that sometimes is something that, like, you know, a lot of times in in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal or, like, I don't know. It's every or it's or or it's like this kind of, like, you know, like, they'll talk it's like Sex and the City. It's like it is it's very, like, talky, but, like, you know, where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the and, you know, it's like and, you know, to me, that just feels true to life in a way, I guess.

不知该怎么形容。总之，我就想干脆大胆拍性爱场面。既然要彻底放开，到最后你会感受到这些角色中每个人内心的兽性。

I don't know how else to put it. But, anyway, so so yeah. So I just thought it was, like, let's do sex. Let's just go all in. And and that was kind of the I was like, if we're gonna go all in, it's like, by the end, you just wanna feel like, yeah, the animal in the in each of these human characters.

那么关键问题来了：会有《白莲花度假村》第三季吗？

So this is the big question. Is there gonna be a White Lotus three? Is there gonna be a third season?

有。他们已确定续订第三季。是的。

Yes. They picked us up for a third season. Yeah. So yes.

地点呢，迈克？在哪里拍？

Where, Mike? Where?

我想去亚洲。我是这么想的——第一季在美国，第二季在欧洲，第三季该去...不知道，就像在猜凯蒂·库里克会去哪儿度假。

Well, I wanna go to Asia. That's what I think. Like, I mean, it feels like, you know, you start in, like, America, then you do Europe. Feels like the next one would be I don't know. Like, I I don't know why that feels it's just like I'm trying to think, like, like, yeah, where does Katie Couric go on vacation?

或者你告诉我。其实...等等，我度假时遇到过你一次。对，就是在...

Or you tell me. Actually, I you know what? I ran into you once on vacation. Wait. I was in yeah.

我当时住在柏林市中心一家经典的老酒店里，名字我忘了。你那时也住在那里，我们偶遇了。我想我们应该是同一天入住的，因为我碰到了你。你非常友善。

I was in Berlin staying at a classic old hotel in the middle of Berlin. I forgot the name of it. And you were staying there at the same time with I ran into you. I ran I think we were, like, there the same days or whatever because I ran into you. You're very friendly.

看起来你玩得很开心。

Seem like you're having a good time.

我是和我丈夫一起去的，他现在还是我丈夫。挺好的。

I was with my husband, who's still my husband. Good.

太好了。对了，你们是去工作还是度假什么的？你们不是...你们当时是...

Great. And, yeah, you guys I don't know if you were there for work or vacation or whatever, but you were No. Were there

去度假的，我丈夫约翰是《幸存者》的超级粉丝。他看过每一季，特别喜欢你在这节目里的表现。

for vacation, and my husband, John, is a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season. He So finds it he loves you from Survivor.

哦，真酷。不过我觉得那应该是在我参加《幸存者》之前的事。

Oh, that's cool. Well, I think it was prior to me doing Survivor.

是吗？

It was?

你们是...我可能...我想那是...不对是吧...

You were I it might I think it was what? Didn't yeah.

我是2020年结婚的，所以大概是...

I got married in '20 So it was probably I

我觉得是在那之后，像是2015年左右。

think it was, like, after that. It was, like, 2015

或者是它

or It

可能是2036年。2015年。

was 2036 maybe. 2015.

好的。所以，是的，我参加了2017年的幸存者。

Okay. So, yeah, I did survivor 2017.

哦，好的。嗯，现在他喜欢你了。

Oh, okay. Well, now he loves you.

你看起来你看起来非常...是的。你看起来有着快乐的活力。我...我从那种氛围中就喜欢上你了。

You you seemed you seemed very yeah. You seemed like you had happy energy. I I liked I liked you from just the vibe.

哦，那太好了。嗯，你...我不想剧透结局，但你认为我们会在第三季中看到坦雅吗？

Oh, that's so nice. Well, do you is I don't wanna spoil the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in the third season?

我喜欢...我我我喜欢写坦雅这个角色，而且我喜欢和詹妮弗合作。所以绝对有可能。

I love well, I I I love writing Tanya, and I love I love working with Jennifer. So definitely could be.

你不能告诉我，如果你告诉我，你你你得杀了我。对吧，迈克？

You can't tell me if you tell me, you you you'd have to kill me. Right, Mike?

为什么...你是什么意思？你在想她会不会死？我...嗯，你永远不知道。有可能。我不会告诉你的。

Why what do you mean? You're you're wondering if she dies? I well, you never know. Could be. I'm not telling you.

你知道的，我不想破坏它。

You know, I don't wanna ruin it.

非常感谢我的嘉宾迈克·怀特。我想你们都会在这个周日，12月11日收看大结局，看看谁能活着离开白莲花度假村。如果不是现在收听，无论何时听到，祝您观影愉快。《凯蒂·库里克的下一个问题》由iHeartMedia和凯蒂·库里克媒体联合制作。执行制片人是我——凯蒂·库里克和考特尼·利茨。

A huge thank you to my guest, Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday, December 11 for the finale to find out who makes it Out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever you're listening to this, happy binging. Next Question with Katie Couric is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are me, Katie Couric and Courtney Litz.

监制是劳伦·汉森，联合制片人是德里克·克莱门茨和安德莉亚·法齐奥。节目由德里克·克莱门茨剪辑混音。想了解本期节目详情或订阅我的晨间通讯《唤醒电话》，请访问katiekurrick.com。您也可以在Instagram等所有社交媒体平台通过@katiekurrick找到我。更多iHeartRadio播客内容，请访问iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或您常用的播客平台。

The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen, associate producers, Derek Clements and Adriana Fazio. The show is edited and mixed by Derek Clements. For more information about today's episode or to sign up for my morning newsletter wake up call, go to katiekurrick.com. You can also find me at katiekurrick on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

我通常只做单口喜剧，但这次有点不同。

I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.

当真实犯罪节目制作人走进喜剧俱乐部会发生什么？答案是一档名为《妙语连珠》的新播客——一位喜剧演员发现自己卷入毛骨悚然的真实犯罪故事。

What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story.

有人知道他们来看什么节目吗

Does anyone know what show they've come

？这是个关于我人生中最恐怖一夜的故事。

to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life.

《妙语连珠》现已上线，您可在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何播客平台收听。

This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1975年12月29日，拉瓜迪亚机场。

12/29/1975, LaGuardia Airport.

假日出行高峰。父母拖着行李，孩子们紧攥圣诞礼物，随后系统（注：此处原文不完整，保留直译）在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何播客平台。

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys, then System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我男友的教授过分热情了，

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly,

现在我真的很怀疑了。

and now I'm seriously suspicious.

等等，山姆。也许她男朋友只是想赚点额外学分。

Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit.

好吧，达科塔，幸运的是，现在是《Okay Story Time》播客的返校周特辑，我们很快就能知道答案。这位听众写道：我男朋友最近总和他那位年轻教授混在一起。他觉得没问题，但我不信任她。现在他坚持要我们互相认识，可我只想让她消失。

Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the Okay Story Time podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

等等。这难道不违反学校规定吗？看起来很不妥。

Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate.

可能吧。想知道结局如何，请收听iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台上的《Okay Storytime》播客。

Maybe. Find out how it ends by listening to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是凯蒂·库里克。我想向你们推荐我最喜欢的新播客之一《一场痛快的哭泣》，由了不起的罗迪·德弗卢基亚主持。这位植物基厨师、企业家兼新晋播客主持人将带你踏上自我发现的旅程，每次解锁一个层级。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听《一场痛快的哭泣》。这是iHeart出品的播客。

Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric, and I wanna tell you about one of my new favorite podcasts. It's called a really good cry with the amazing Roddy DeVlukia, a plant based chef, entrepreneur, and now a podcast host who will guide you through a journey of self discovery, one tier at a time. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Roddy DeVlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.