杰斯·卡特利将第三次约会转变成了换偶帝国

你知道，很多女性都曾和伴侣去过脱衣舞俱乐部。

You know, a lot of people have been to the strips with their partner, a lot of women.

事实证明这种经历会引发强烈不适感，唤起她们内心深处的抵触情绪。

And even that's been proven to be really confronting and brought up feelings that they're, you know, deeply uncomfortable with.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们从那个世界退却了。

And then they retreat from that world.

没错。

Yep.

所以他们觉得，我们尝试过了。

So they go, we tried that.

那没有奏效。

That didn't work.

那不适合我。

That's not for me.

但你内心深处有某种东西驱使你继续前进，尽管你有那些感受

But there was something in you that that went even though you you had those feelings

是啊。

Yeah.

你选择了坚持。

You went, but I'm gonna persist.

我要和劳伦斯谈谈这件事，我们会解决的。

I'm gonna talk to Lawrence about this, and we're gonna sort that out.

那种驱动力是什么？

What was that drive?

我认为有俱乐部的支持确实很有帮助。

I think it really helped having the club as well.

我们当时也是倡导者。

So we were advocates at the time as well.

我想这促使我不断自我提升而不是放弃。

I think that kind of pushed me to ensure that I was bettering myself rather than giving up.

我也非常善解人意，因为我不认为每个人都是完美的。

I'm also a very a very understanding because I don't think everyone's perfect.

我深知自己一直在努力改进，因为我不认为自己完美无缺。

I know for a fact I always continue to try and improve on things because I don't think I'm perfect.

这种心态让我坚持认为，我真的很想在这方面努力，因为它让我成为了更好的人。

And I think that mentality stuck being like, I would really like to work on this because I think this has made me a better person.

我只是有点不舒服，但我想解决它。

I've just got an ick, but I'd like to fix it.

没错。

Right.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

开放式关系在哪些方面让你成为了更好的人？

In what way has swinging made you a better person?

我认为它让我对自己更有信心，明白自己会有小起伏和小缺陷，而这些缺陷帮助我成长，或让我学会与之共处。

I think it's allowed me to be more confident in myself and understand that I have like little ups and downs, I have little imperfections and my imperfections have helped me become a better person or I've been able to find ways to work with my imperfections.

它还让我成为了家人和朋友之间更好的沟通者。

It's also allowed me to be a better communicator both to my family as well as to my friends.

我曾与高中认识的非开放式关系朋友交谈，感觉对话总是浮于表面，缺乏深度和意义。

I've had conversations with friends who aren't in the lifestyle who I've known from high school and I do feel like I get really top line conversations and then nothing, there's no depth, there's no meaning to it.

很多对话都空洞无物。

And it's a lot of there's nothing to it.

没有实质内容。

There's no grit.

我很庆幸现在无论去哪里，我都能与任何人展开对话。

And I just I'm really fortunate that I can now have conversations with anyone wherever we go.

而且我能从一些对话中获得意义和目的。

And I'm able to get meaning and purpose from some of the conversations that I'm having.

嗯，这是一个人构成中如此核心的部分，关乎他们的性取向或任何形式的感性。

Well, it's such an essential part of a person's makeup, their sexuality, or any sort of sensuality.

但感觉两年的节点非常重要，意义重大，因为正是在这两年你产生了那些被劳伦斯排斥的感受。

But it feels like the two year mark was very important, was significant because it was two years in that you had that those feelings when you felt excluded from Lawrence.

享受着他的游戏。

Enjoying his play.

而正是在两年时，你说你向家人透露了这个俱乐部的事。

And it was at two years you said that you told your family about the club.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这就是你认定'这就是我想要的生活方式'的转折点吗？

So was that the point at which you were like, this is this is the lifestyle for me.

这将是我的事业。

This is going to be my business.

就是这里。

This is the place.

这就是真实的我。

This is who I am.

对。

Yeah.

我认为正是在那时，我彻底确信这件事给我的生活带来了比其他任何事都更多的机遇和信心。

I think it was where I kinda cemented the fact that this has given me more opportunities and more confidence in my life than anything else.

而且在那段时间里，我建立的友谊至今仍在延续。

And I was building friendships that I still have to this day during that time.

我想正因如此，我从他们那里获得了推动力和信心，真正努力追求这种生活方式。

And I think because of that, I was getting that boost and confidence from them to really strive to be in this lifestyle.

我也通过这种生活方式明白，这并不意味着我必须完全开放。

And I think I also learnt with this lifestyle that it doesn't mean I have to be open.

我必须和每个人发生关系。

I have to have sex with everyone.

在这种生活方式中，我可以拥有那种友谊。

I can have that friendship in this lifestyle.

在这种生活方式中，我可以只保持性关系。

I can have just a sexual relationship in this lifestyle.

我也可以加深与劳伦斯的联系。

I can also build my connection with Lawrence.

这种生活方式包含了许多我学到的不同元素，我开始逐一触及这些方面，这让我能够与家人、与父母坦诚交流，告诉他们我现在是一家换妻俱乐部的老板。

There were so many different elements to this lifestyle that I'd learnt, and I was starting to touch on each of one of those, which I think then allowed me to have that conversation with my family, with my mom and my dad about the fact that I'm now an owner of a swingers club.

我仍有白天的工作，但也有夜晚的工作。

I still have my day job, but I also have my night job.

等等。

Hang on.

等等。

Hang on.

等等。

Hang on.

等等。

Hang on.

等等，杰西。

Hang on, Jess.

倒回去说。

Back up.

倒回去说，因为事后回想起来一切似乎都很清晰。

Back up because, I mean, everything seems clear in retrospect.

但那天晚上你原本要在家庭晚餐上谈这件事吗？

But the night that you were going to have that was it at a family dinner?

事情是怎么发生的？

How did you how did it play out?

那时候我父母已经离婚了，他们不常在一起。

So my mom and my dad were divorced at this stage and they didn't spend a lot of time together.

所以其实是在我父亲家里。

So it actually was at my dad's house.

我妈妈来到父亲家，让我坐下，我们隔着餐桌面对面坐着。

My mom came over to my dad's house and sat me down and we were sitting across like, a dining table.

就是在某天中午时分。

So it was just during the middle of the day.

你事先通知家人了吗？

Had you called the family?

你有没有说'我有事要告诉你们'？

Did you say, I've got something to tell you?

还是

Or

嗯。

Yeah.

那天我本来就和妈妈约好要一起吃个简餐，突然有种直觉想告诉她，转念一想不能把爸爸排除在外，就问她能不能一起谈谈。

So I'd I'm I was already going to meet up with my mom for the day to have just a light lunch, and I just kind of got this stomach feeling where I just wanted to tell her and then I was like, wait, would not wanna leave my dad out of this, so I asked her if we could have a conversation together.

我说不是什么严重的事，但有件事很想告诉你们。

I said it's nothing too serious but it's something I'd really like to tell you guys.

当然，为人父母的第一反应总是往最坏处想。

Of course, parents being parents thought something horrific had happened to me.

对。

Right.

实际上那次谈话进行得非常非常顺利。

It was actually the conversation went really, really well.

我不认为他们松了一口气，因为我父母其实并不明白什么是换偶俱乐部。

I don't think there was a sigh of relief because both my parents didn't really understand what a swingers club was.

我确实花了一年时间才让他们真正理解，换偶俱乐部是关于自愿、伦理非单一伴侣关系的。

It did take me a year to really help solidify the idea that a swingers club is about consent, ethically non monogamous people.

我向他们解释各种术语，让他们明白女儿并不是在那种——我想老一辈人可能会觉得——类似于脱衣舞俱乐部那种低俗不雅的场所。

It was giving them all the terms that they could use to understand that their daughter wasn't in some sort of, I guess, back in the day people thought, you know, you're at a strip club, it's a bit dirt, it's a bit sea like sleazy.

所以能进行这样的对话很重要，告诉他们：不，我很安全。

So being able to have that conversation and being like, no, I'm safe.

我真的很幸福。

I'm really happy.

后来他们开始接触我在这个圈子里的一些朋友，我想这确实帮助他们理解，我的选择和人生道路完全没有问题。

And then they started meeting some of my friends from the lifestyle, and I think that really helped them understand that this this decision, this path that I was on wasn't a bad path at all.

他们当然认识劳伦斯，毕竟那时你们已经在一起两年了。

So they knew Lawrence, obviously, because you'd been together for two years at this point.

是的。

Yeah.

显然他们认可劳伦斯作为你的伴侣。

And they obviously were on board with Lawrence as a partner for you.

他们最初的第一反应是什么？

What was their first their first reaction?

你还记得自己说出口时的情形吗？

Can you remember when the words came out of your mouth?

我爸以为我在妓院工作。

My dad thought I was working at a brothel.

好吧。

Right.

所以需要澄清根本不是那么回事。

And so just clarifying that that was not what was happening.

我妈妈性格比较安静。

My mum was a bit more of the quiet type.

所以她会和我交谈，但更多只是确保我的安全。

So she'd had a conversation with me, but it was more around just ensuring I was safe.

无论我做什么，妈妈一直都是我最大的支持者之一，她只是想确认我安全无恙，没有做伤害自己的事。

My mum has always been a really good supporter in anything I do, one of my biggest advocates, but she just wanted to make sure I was safe and I wasn't doing anything to harm myself.

我觉得能笑着讲述这件事，而且我对于向他们介绍俱乐部感到非常兴奋，这帮助他们理解我所做的既是事业，也是我的热情所在。

And I think just being able to like say it with a smile and I was really excited about telling them about the club, I think that helped them understand that what I was doing was something of a business, but also something that I had a passion for.

每当我决定开始或投入某项充满激情的冒险时，父母都给予了我极大的支持。

And my parents have both been very good supporters anytime I've decided to start or embark on some sort of passionate adventure.

我想他们知道我天生爱冒险，从不是那种坐以待毙的人，所以一开始就非常接纳。

So I think knowing that I was such an adventurous person and never the person that sat on my hands and did nothing, I think they were very accepting at first.

那他们有没有来看过你工作？

And did they ever come have they come to see you at work?

他们来过现场看

Have they come to see the

俱乐部吗？

club?

没有。

No.

现在的话，我不在场时可能会允许他们来俱乐部，但我觉得这不是我父母的风格。

So and now what I've I probably would allow them to come come to the club when I was not there, but I don't think that's in my parents.

我有两个妹妹来过俱乐部支持我。

I have two younger sisters who have come and supported the club.

每逢重大活动，比如生日派对或我在那里过生日时，她们都会来俱乐部支持。

So anytime we have a big event like the birthday or I have my birthday there, they've come and supported the club.

其他家庭成员还没来过俱乐部。

Family members, haven't seen in the club.

我觉得我的家人不会那样，但这完全没问题。

I don't think my family swing that way, but that's completely fine.

我确实见过不少朋友。

I have definitely seen a bunch of friends.

我在俱乐部见过同事。

I have seen work colleagues in the club.

家人我还没在俱乐部遇到过，对此我很庆幸。

Family I still haven't ticked off and seen in the club, which I'm happy with that.

我不介意

I don't mind

没有

not having

见到我的家人。

to see my family.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

这让我想起TikTok上那个女孩，她发现自己的订阅者里竟然有她的继父之类的，那种感觉就是...有时候你真的不需要家人亲临现场支持你。

I'm reminded of that girl who on TikTok who had known me fans and realized that one of her subscribers was her stepdad or whatever, and it was just like, oh, there's sometimes that you don't necessarily want your family to support you by physically being there.

嗯。

Yep.

是啊。

Yeah.

有精神支持我就很满足了。

I'm happy with the just the moral support.

说到支持，目前你和劳伦斯的关系发展得如火如荼。

And speaking of support, at this point, your relationship with Laurence is going great guns.

是的。

Yep.

但后来，这种关系开始出现裂痕，是分离、情感疏远还是渐行渐远？

But at some point, that started to was it a separation, an emotional separation, or a growing apart?

对我和劳伦斯来说，绝对是渐行渐远的过程。

So with Lawrence and I, it was definitely a growing apart.

在我们交往大约六年后，我们开了第二家俱乐部。

So we probably six years into our relationship, we'd opened up the second club.

哦。

Oh.

同时我们也开放了彼此的关系。

We'd also opened up our relationship as well.

我们开始和其他人约会，这种状态持续了约两年。

So we were starting to date other people, and we've been doing that for about two years.

所以...哦。

So Oh.

我们确实极大地拓展了彼此的关系边界。

We'd really expanded on our relationship.

杰西，这点你也需要向我解释清楚。

Jess, you need to explain this to me as well.

嗯。

Yeah.

交换伴侣并不等同于开放关系。

So the swinging is not opening the relationship.

交换行为本身并不算。

Swinging itself is not.

是的。

Yeah.

所以摇摆本身是指你可以来与伴侣或独自在那一刻获得性体验或情感与性结合的体验。

So swinging itself is where you can come and have a sexual experience or an emotional and sexual experience with your partner or by yourself in that moment.

开放关系意味着你有一个主要伴侣或通常回归的对象，然后你可以在此基础上拥有多重关系。

Being in an open relationship means that you have a primary partner or you have somebody that you normally go back to, and then you can have multiple relationships from that.

没错。

So Right.

在我看来，它们有点像不同的阶段。

They're kinda like stages is how I see it.

我相信有人持不同观点，但我的理解是：我们有摇摆关系，然后可以将其开放并保留主要伴侣。

I'm sure there's people out there who have it in a different perspective, but the way that I see it is we have, like, our swinging relationship, and then we can open that up and have, like, our primary partner.

劳伦斯是我的主要伴侣，而我当时正在探索与女性和男性的性关系。

So Lawrence was my primary partner, and I was exploring my sexuality with both women and men.

我那时有个女朋友，还有几个男朋友。

I had a girlfriend, and I had a couple boyfriends at the time too.

我想这需要格外谨慎处理。

And this, I imagine, is where requires some extra care.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你谈论的现在涉及真正的情感层面

Because you what you're talking about now is a real emotional level

对。

Yes.

不仅是身体层面。

As well, not just physical.

没错。

Yeah.

这里面有很多门道。

There's a lot there is a lot to it.

我和现在的伴侣之间，我们不是开放关系。

I with my current partner, we are not open.

我没有精力去经营那种情感关系。

I do not have the capacity to have that emotional relationship.

我现在很清楚这一点。

I know that in myself now.

我确实更偏向于性关系模式，但我实在没有多余的精力分给伴侣以外的人。

I I'm definitely a more of a sexual relationship style, but I don't I just don't have the emotional capacity to give somebody else other than my partner more of my time and emotional capacity.

你是怎么意识到这一点的？

And so how did you come to that realization?

因为你和劳伦斯在一起时，你是有这个能力的？

Because when you were with Laurence, you did have that capacity?

是的。

Yeah.

你看。

Look.

和劳伦斯在一起时，我确实有。

With Laurence, I did.

我认为我和劳伦斯从一开始就建立了以对话为基础的关系，能够进行这些开放的对话，真心想一起探索各种可能。

I think Laurence and I built a relationship from the beginning about conversations and being able to have these open conversations and really wanting to explore things together.

我想正是因为我们本来就充满探索精神，开放关系对我们来说就像是水到渠成。

I think because we were so explorative already, opening up our relationship really did feel like the stage for us.

当时我们已经订婚了。

We were also engaged as well at this stage.

所以我觉得和他订婚后，我真的把他当成了我的主要伴侣。

So I think having been engaged to him, I really did feel like I had that primary partner.

因此我拥有那种安心的安全感。

And so I'd had that comfortable ability to The security.

是的。

Yeah.

去探索自我，包括与女性和男性的性向探索。

To go and explore myself, both sexually with women and sexually with men.

我由此建立了各种关系。

So I built relationships from that.

与此同时，劳伦斯也经历了同样的过程。

During that time also, Lawrence had done the same.

实际上我们都在这个阶段遇到了各自的新伴侣。

We actually both met our respective new partners during this stage.

所以我遇到了我丈夫，劳伦斯遇到了他妻子。

So I've I met my husband and Lawrence met his wife.

好的。

So Okay.

这是个美妙的交叉点。

So it's a nice little crossover.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

而且这些事情几乎是同步发生的。

And it happened sort of concurrently.

所以很明显你们同时感受到了相同的情绪。

So you were obviously both feeling the same thing at the same time.

是的。

Yeah.

劳伦斯在遇到他现任妻子时，我还没遇到我的伴侣。

So Lawrence had met his current wife before I'd met my partner.

所以我遇到我的伴侣大概是在我们同时认识劳伦斯妻子的一年之后。

So I'd met my partner maybe maybe a year after we'd we both met Lawrence's wife together at the same time.

他们建立了关系，这都是双方自愿的，因为我们都在经营开放式关系。

They built a relationship, which was all consensual because we were building on open relationships.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你和劳伦斯的妻子发生过关系吗？

You've had sex with Lawrence's wife?

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yep.

好吧。

Alright.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

其实劳伦斯也是在俱乐部认识她的，顺便提一下。

And Lawrence actually met her in the club as well just to add into that.

所以劳伦斯是在我们俱乐部里和我同时认识她的。

So Lawrence had met her in our club with me at the same time.

我们俩是同时认识她的。

We both met her at the same time.

所以，是的，这确实让关系与开放式关系交织在一起，尤其是劳伦斯那边，不是我这边。

So, yeah, it's it does really intertwine quite a bit relationships and swinging and especially Lawrence and not mine.

就像你说的，你必须非常敏锐地感知那种身体上的连接。

And because you must be so attuned to like you said, there's like a physical connection.

这涉及到多个层面。

There's a number of levels to it.

首先是身体层面的连接。

There's a physical connection.

还有情感层面的连接。

There's an emotional connection.

没错。

Yep.

很多人认为性行为中还存在着精神层面的连接。

Many people believe that there's also a spiritual connection in sexuality.

那么当你和劳伦斯在一起时，你们同时遇见了他现在的妻子，你当时感觉到他们之间有什么特别的东西吗？

But so when you were with Lawrence and you both met who's now his wife at the same time, did you sense that there was that something between them?

我绝对能感觉到他们之间有更强烈的联系。

I could definitely tell there was a stronger connection.

我不认为从一开始就察觉到了，我当时...我在观察。

And I don't think I saw it from the beginning that I was I I was look.

我从不担心他们的关系，但就像你说的，我们当时都在默契地保持些距离。

I was never worried about their relationship, but I think, like you said, we were both in tune of checking out a little bit.

我觉得我们当时只是在按部就班地建立关系，打勾完成任务，而不是真正培养我们正在建立的关系。

I think we both were building on the relationship and just ticking off boxes rather than nurturing that relationship that we were building.

我的意思是，这种培养方式让我们至今仍是很好的朋友。

I mean, it it's nurtured in the way that we are still really good friends.

所以我认为这就是我们投入关爱的地方。

So I think that's where we were putting the nurturing into.

但性、爱以及所有那些，并没有得到滋养。

But the sex and the love and all of that, that was not getting nurtured on.

所以我觉得我们已经在别处寻找那些了。

So I think we were already seeking that somewhere else.

所以我想我确实注意到了他们的情况，但我从未因此感到威胁。

So I think I did notice it with them, but I I was never threatened by it.

所以我觉得这一切都是自然而然发生的，结果其实很好，因为这样我就能让自己先发展友谊，然后爱上我现在的伴侣——从我们开始约会时起。

So I think it just kind of fell naturally, which actually worked out great because I think I was able to then allow myself to develop the friendship and then the love for my current partner from when I started dating him.

这位是杰米，对吧。

So this is Jamie Yep.

就是你现在的丈夫，你们有个一岁的儿子。

Who you're married to now, and you have a one year old son.

其实是两岁了。

I got a two year old, actually.

两岁了？

A two year old?

是的。

Yeah.

他刚满两岁。

He just turned two.

劳伦斯和他伴侣也有个两岁的孩子？

And Lawrence also has a two year old with his partner?

确实如此。

He does indeed.

所以，我们的孩子出生时间只相差一个月。

So, we have kids a month apart.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

你们之间确实有种默契。

You do have something simpatico between you.

确实如此。

We do indeed.

这是一种非常有趣的关系，虽然现在说起来有点奇怪，但我觉得我们的关系就像兄妹一样，彼此非常了解对方。

It's it's a very interesting relationship because it's weird to say it now, but I think I say that our relationship is like a brother and sister relationship where we just know so much about each other.

但归根结底，我们都会在对方做的每个决定上互相支持和维护。

But at the end of the day, we both defend and support each other in every decision that we make.

但我觉得我们的人生选择和愿望在很大程度上仍然是一致的，因为我们早就在共同构建这些了。

But I think a lot of our life decisions and our wants are quite still in the same line because we were already building that together.

现在我们只是找到了其他伴侣来共同构建。

We've now just found other partners to build that with.

你们还是商业伙伴吗？

You're still business partners?

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

仍然是商业伙伴。

Still business partners.

所以这也是一个考虑因素？

So there's that consideration as well?

对。

Yeah.

所以我们基本上每周还是会见面三次。

So we still we pretty much see each other still three times a week.

我们通常在俱乐部里为生意处理新事务。

We're generally at the club working on new stuff for the business.

我们对生意仍抱有相同的目标和期望。

We continue to have the same goals and hopes for the business as well.

所以想要扩展业务，想要跨州发展。

So wanting to expand the business, wanting to go interstate.

我们对此进行了非常坦诚的交流。

We have very good open conversations about this.

这确实帮助我们建立了——我想说——作为商业伙伴共同的生活基础，因为我们与主要伴侣构建的生活让我们感到非常幸福。

So it's really helped build our, I guess, our our life together as business partners because we're so happy in the lives that we've developed with our primary partners.

别走开。

Don't go anywhere.

接下来，杰西会讲述她将伴侣杰米带入俱乐部的经历。

Next, Jess explains what it was like bringing her partner Jamie into the club.

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你是怎么认识杰米的？

How did you meet Jamie?

我在Tinder上认识他的。

I met him on Tinder.

老派作风。

Old school.

非常，对，非常老派。

Very, yeah, very old school.

在Tinder上认识的他。

Met him on Tinder.

我在Tinder上也很坦诚。

I was very transparent on Tinder too.

我说过，我来这里是为了找个上床对象。

I said, I'm here to find somebody to have sex with.

我想要一个以性为基础的伴侣，并不想发展成男朋友或那种层面的恋爱关系。

I wanted to have a partner that was based off sex, and I didn't wanna build a boyfriend or a relationship in that aspect.

显然这计划完全

So that clearly didn't work at

没成功。

all.

哇。

Wow.

但他居然回应了这种要求。

And yet he responded to that.

他当时就说，好啊。

He was like, yeah.

我也是冲着这个来的。

I'm here for that.

是啊。

Yeah.

那你是什么时候意识到感情超越了原本的预期？

And then at what point did you realize it was more than than that?

我觉得在早期阶段，我确实从一开始就感受到更多，因为杰米·杰米也是刚离婚不久，我还得向他解释我仍和劳伦斯在一起。

I think early on, I definitely felt like there was more from the beginning, because Jamie Jamie was also just recently divorced, and I had to be also explained to him that I was still with Lawrence.

我认为我们从一开始的对话就非常透明和诚实。

I think a lot of our conversations from the get go were very transparent and very honest.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以当我们俩都很早就开始产生感情时，大概是在第三次或第四次约会时，我们就已经在进行非常深入、有意义的对话，讨论如果关系发生变化会怎样，多重关系会是什么样子？

So when we both started developing feelings quite early on, I think it was, like, into date three or date four, we were having really long, deep and meaningful conversations about what would happen if the relationship changed, what would a polyamorous relationship look like?

因为在那个阶段，我和劳伦斯还在一起，我们仍在努力维系我们的关系继续下去。

Because at that stage, Lawrence and I were still together and we were still working on our relationship to continue through.

所以我们确实在尝试勾选很多选项，看看我们对哪些感到舒适。

So we were definitely trying to tick off a lot of boxes to see what we'd feel comfortable with.

我想这就是我确立观点的地方——我认为自己不适合多重关系，因为我无法始终全身心投入给每个人，也无法很好地平衡。

I think that's where I'd kind of found the establishment that I don't think I would be comfortable in a polyamorous relationship because I wouldn't be able to give my full self 100% to each person all the time and I wouldn't be able to balance it well.

因此我不得不重新在脑海中确立一些关于我真正想从关系中获得什么的想法。

So that's where I had to reestablish some ideas in my mind of what I really wanted from a relationship.

我认为劳伦斯也是如此，他对自己想从关系中获得什么也有了一些想法。

I think that's also the same with Lawrence where he had some thoughts about what he wanted from a relationship.

当我们分手时，我们的分手方式非常...这真是个有趣的分手方式。

I when we broke up as well, we had a really it was it's such an interesting way that we broke up.

我们在他的生日派对上分手，一起开车回家，又一起住了几天，然后他就搬出去了。

We broke up on his birthday party, drove home together, spent a couple of days together, and then he moved out.

没有任何敌意。

There was no animosity.

没有愤怒。

There was no anger.

头几个月确实有些低落时刻，但我们有段分开的时间，而且分手时我们非常友好。

There was a little bit of, like, you know, those down moments for the first couple months, but we had some separation time, but we were really amicable when we broke up.

我想我们都明白我们的道路不再一致，至少作为恋爱关系是这样。

I think we both understood our paths weren't didn't align anymore, at least as a romantic relationship.

所以我们的分手出乎意料地顺利。

So our split was surprisingly easy.

他听起来非常务实，劳伦斯。

He sounds very pragmatic, Laurence.

是的。

Yep.

但当他察觉到你和杰米之间的连接，而你又表示不想维持多角关系时

But when he sensed the connection between you and Jamie and when you were like, oh, I don't wanna be polyamorous or whatever Yep.

这对他来说肯定是个明确的信号——杰米将成为你选择的方向。

That must have been for him a real sign that Jamie was the course that you were going to be following.

没错。

Yeah.

听着。

Look.

我认为这很像我之前察觉到他与妻子关系更密切时的情况。

I think quite similar to when I'd picked up, there was more with his wife.

我确信劳伦斯也察觉到了我和杰米之间的特殊关系。

I definitely think Lawrence picked up on the Jamie aspect too.

我们确实讨论过我对杰米感情更深这件事。

We did have conversations about how I felt a bit more stronger towards Jamie.

我对很多事情都很坦诚，劳伦斯也是。

I was quite transparent with a lot of things as was Lawrence.

再次说明，我认为这种开放的沟通方式在我们之间非常牢固，这要感谢我们的生活方式。

Again, I think that open communication was very strong in us, thankfully, because of the lifestyle.

所以我觉得这确实帮助我们不会因彼此进行这些对话而感到羞耻。

So I think that really helped us not feel ashamed for having these conversations with each other.

我认为这也有助于我们在分手时真正明确一点：我们分手不是因为不喜欢对方这个人。

And I think that also helped allowed us when we did break up, have it really solidified that we understood we weren't breaking up because we didn't like each other as people.

只是我们彼此并不合适。

It's just we weren't the right people for each other.

所以当你遇到杰米时，我猜——可能我猜错了——他来自更传统的那种关系模式。

So when you met Jamie, and I'm imagining maybe I'm wrong, but he had come from a more traditional sort of model of relationship.

你说他离过婚。

You said he was divorced.

是的。

Yep.

你是怎么把他介绍给你们所有人的？

How did you introduce him to all of you?

我直接把他扔进了深水区。

I threw him in the deep end.

我从一开始就告诉了他我的喜好。

So I told him from the get go what I what I was into.

我告诉了他关于俱乐部的事。

I told him about the club.

我对经营俱乐部这件事一直非常坦诚。

I was always very transparent about owning the club.

嗯。

Mhmm.

基本上，那是我们俱乐部九周年庆，我邀请他以单身男士的身份来参加。

Basically, we it was our ninth birthday at the club, and I invited him to come along as a single guy.

那时候我还和劳伦斯在一起。

At the time, I was still with Lawrence.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们让他独自待了一会儿，想看看他如何适应这种情境和生活方式。

And he was kind of left by himself for a little bit just to see how he'd suit in the situation and how he would be around this lifestyle.

杰米似乎游泳游得非常好。

Jamie seems to swim so well.

他和每个人都能相处融洽，善于交谈，非常自在，能够随遇而安，在任何情境中都感到舒适。

He just gets on with everyone, has conversations, is very comfortable in his own self and able to just float around and be comfortable in whatever situation.

我认为这对我帮助很大，因为在这种生活方式下，我无法总是及时满足他的所有需求，因为我需要经营生意。

I think that really helped me because with this lifestyle, I'm not always able to give everything I need to to him at the time because I need to be running the business.

我需要随时处理各种事务。

I need to be checking on things.

而知道他能够自得其乐且不会感到被冷落，这让我更加确信他就是对的人。

And knowing that he was comfortable just doing his thing and not feeling left out really helped solidify the fact that he was the one.

那他具体做些什么呢？

And what was his thing?

他是在等你吗？

Was he waiting for you?

还是

Or

是的。

Yeah.

我们总说杰米是个讨人喜欢的家伙。

So Jamie, we always call him a pleaser.

杰米的存在就是为了确保每个人都玩得开心。

So Jamie's there to ensure that everyone has fun.

他喜欢给每个人带来愉悦的体验和美好的情感连接。

He loves being able to give everyone that really nice high and that really beautiful connection.

如今杰米和我都更认同‘半开放式关系’，如果情境合适，我们都会投入其中。

Jamie and I both identify now more as monogamish where if the situation arises, then we're into it.

我们并没有给自己设定某种标签，比如一定要保持开放关系。

There's no set label that we fall under where, you know, we wanna both be open.

杰米自己也接受不了开放关系，所以那次关于多元关系的谈话最终没能达成一致。

Jamie couldn't see himself either being open, which is where that conversation about the poly didn't really work out.

我们之前都有过与多人发生关系的经历，包括夫妻、群体以及单身人士。

We've had sex with multiple people before, both with couples, in groups, with singles.

所以我们一起探索过很多这方面的可能性。

So we've explored a lot of those elements as well together.

在我们刚开始约会时，他就在探索什么样的关系模式最适合自己。

He was exploring it while we were still dating at the beginning to see what he felt suited him.

最终我们发现彼此非常契合，我们喜欢共同探索新事物，但更倾向于让这些体验自然发生，而不是刻意安排这周要找对夫妻或参加什么特殊活动。

At the end, we figured we felt really well matched together and we enjoyed exploring things together, but having them as spontaneous moments rather than set plans where this week we're gonna go and have a couple or this week we'll go and do an ordeal, we'll go to a party.

这种即兴发挥的方式对我们来说效果最好。

Like, was just a spur of the moment sort of situations that worked best for us.

那么杰西，现在回想起来——或者当时你是否就有意识——第一次邀请杰米去俱乐部时，算不算是一种考验？

So, Jess, if you think about it now or maybe you were conscious of it at the time, inviting Jamie to the club that first time, was it kind of a test?

对我来说绝对是考验，因为我已经在俱乐部和这种生活方式中建立了自己的圈子。

Definitely for me because I I'd already established myself in the club and in this lifestyle.

我特意想观察他如何与我生活中的这类人相处，同时也想确认如果他感到不适，是否能坦然与我沟通。

It was very intentional to see how he was with the type of people that I was building my life with and also to understand if he was comfortable being able to communicate with me if he wasn't.

明白。

Right.

然后呢？

And?

值得庆幸的是，他表现得非常非常出色。

And thankfully, he succeeded very, very well.

他确实令人印象深刻。

He was very much impressive.

那天反而让我发现了他更多可爱之处，因为他在场地布置和收尾时帮了我大忙。

It actually helped me find more things to love about him on that day because he was able to help me out during the venue setup and the close down.

当我在俱乐部忙着表演我的杰西卡桥段时，他还能自如地和人交谈。

He was also able to hold conversations while I was off doing my Jessica spiel at the club.

而且我想我们最后还在后储藏室做了爱，纯粹是因为他冲浪者的气质太性感了，完全不是那种沉闷的类型。

And he was I think we actually ended up having sex in the back storeroom just out of being so sexually attracted to the fact that he was a surfer, not a sinker.

嘿。

Hey.

对了，他当时穿什么？

What did he wear, by the way?

他总是穿那身——我称之为经典杰米造型。

So he wears his I always call it the classic Jamie look.

黑色牛仔裤配黑色纽扣衬衫，永远套着件黑色西装外套。

He wears black jeans with a black button up shirt and always a black blazer.

我男孩的衣柜里根本找不出一件彩色衣服。

My boy doesn't have anything colorful in his wardrobe at all.

不是黑就是白或灰，再加上他那头盐胡椒色的头发，特别配他的气质和形象。

It's black, white, or gray, and he's got the salt and pepper hair, so I think it really suits his demeanor and his look.

那你穿什么？

And what do you wear?

哦。

Oh.

如果是去工作场合会不会不一样？虽然工作最后可能变成玩乐？

Is it different if you're going if you're working, but then work might end up being pleasure as well?

听着。

Look.

我穿什么全看心情。

I wear whatever my mood is feeling.

我学会了在舒适的同时保持性感。

I've learnt to be comfortable but be sexy.

所以我通常会选择穿裤装套装或小黑裙，这是我现在的首选。

So I try and wear generally, like, a pantsuit is my go to right now or a black dress.

我最近特别钟爱纯色裤装套装。

I'm really loving, like, block colored pantsuits.

前几天我就穿了一套绿色的。

So I wore a green one the other day.

我还有一套漂亮的酒红色套装。

I've got a beautiful burgundy colored.

我总是穿着我信赖的路易威登。

I always wear my trusty Louis Vuittons.

如果是特殊场合，你总会发现我穿着亮片网纱裙。

And if it's a specialized event, you always find me in a glow mesh dress.

啊。

Ah.

亮片网纱，很冷吧。

Glow mesh, very cold.

确实很冷，但我特别容易过热，总是大汗淋漓。

It is very cold, but I overheat extremely quickly, and I'm always sweating up a storm.

所以我发现冰冷的金属面料穿在身上反而很舒服。

So I find it actually the cold metal on me is amazing.

另外我好奇的是，我丈夫曾经营过几家夜店。

The other thing I'm curious about is my husband had a couple of nightclubs.

生意好的时候确实很棒。

And when they're flying, they're great.

不过大部分收入显然来自酒水销售。

But most of the money is obviously from booze.

但由于许可证限制，你们属于自带酒水场所。

But because you because of licensing restrictions, you're a BYO venue.

是吗？

Yeah?

是的。

Yeah.

所以你们不从酒水上赚钱。

So you're not making money from booze.

那你们如何盈利？目前的业务收入是否足以维持你和合伙人的生计？

How do you make money, and is the business lucrative enough to sustain you now and your partners?

没错。

Yeah.

出人意料的是，确实如此。

So surprisingly, yes.

这个行业利润极其丰厚。

It is extremely lucrative.

这让我们能雇佣一名全职经理、一名全职行政人员和17名员工。

It allows us to have a full time manager, a full time admin person, and 17 staff members.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

我们主要靠门票收入赚钱。

So we make a lot of our money basically through entry.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我们还有周边商品销售和线上会员专区。

But we also have merchandise and we also have an online members area.

拥有这些不同的元素确实有助于吸引顾客，不过我们每周只营业四天。

So having those different elements does help keep it coming in, but we also do operate four days a week.

对。

Right.

那人们可以加入会员吗？比如以订阅方式成为俱乐部年度会员，还是按次付费参加活动？

And do people join can people join as, like, a subscription so they're a member of the club for a year, or do they pay per event?

是的。

Yeah.

我们是按次收费的。

So people pay per event.

所有门票都在线上发售，我们会提前一个月发布。

All our tickets are found online, and we post them all a month out.

大多数活动在开始前两三天就会售罄。

Most events are sold out two to three days before the event actually happens.

会员制仅限于一个在线论坛，人们可以在那里交流讨论——无论是想来的、没来过的，还是在考虑参加特别活动的，都可以在那里畅所欲言。

When it comes to membership, it's solely for an online forum where they can talk and communicate with people who want to come to the club or haven't been to the club or are deciding to come to the club on a special event, and they can discuss and talk about it there.

嘿。

Hey.

你们有什么小吃？

What snacks do you have?

性爱会让人饿。

Sex makes you hungry.

怎么回事？

What happens?

我们那里其实有个空气炸锅，特别擅长做炸饭团和芝士条。我的经理非常贴心，会给客人切胡萝卜条配蘸酱。

So we actually have an air fryer there, and we love a good, like, arancini ball, mozzarella stick, and my manager is exceptional and will cut up carrot sticks for people and have dip and carrot sticks for everyone.

所以

So

胡萝卜条最后去哪儿了，杰丝？

Where do the carrot sticks end up, Jess?

噢，我希望是进他们嘴里，不过在俱乐部里一切皆有可能。

Oh, I'm hoping in their mouth, but anything's possible in the club.

我感兴趣的是，我发现自己在生完孩子后——我有四个孩子——特别是在产后初期，我与自己身体的关系与生育前截然不同。

Something I'm interested in is I found for me that after I had children, and I've had four of them, that my relationship certainly in that immediate postpartum period, my relationship with my body was very different than it had been previous to having children.

我感觉自己变得更有保护欲，或者更脆弱，不过我还没仔细分析这对你意味着什么。

And I felt kind of a bit more protective or a bit more vulnerable or I really haven't analyzed it in terms of what it would mean for you.

你在生完儿子后有过这些变化吗？

Did you experience any of those changes after you had your son?

说来有趣，生完奥利弗后我和杰米可能和更多人发生过关系。

Funny enough, I probably have had sex with Jamie with more people since having Oliver.

没错。

Right.

我觉得主要是机会变多了，因为现在我们遇到的都是有孩子的夫妻或人士。

I think it was just our opportunities have become a little bit easier because now we're finding couples or people who have kids as well.

所以我们的对话感觉自在多了。

And so our conversations feel a lot more comfortable.

因此我觉得这很快就能自然过渡到性话题的讨论。

And so I think that kind of flows really quickly into being able to have sexual conversations.

不过我确实因为选择了剖腹产而非顺产——

But I definitely because I opted to have a C section rather than giving a vaginal birth.

而且在生下奥利六周后，我还坚持出国三周参加了两场婚礼。

I also pushed myself when we traveled six weeks after giving birth to Ollie to go overseas for three weeks for two weddings.

所以我觉得，说到底我就是个意志特别坚定的人。

So I think, again, I'm just very strong minded and very strong willed.

只要我想做的事，就一定会去做。

If I wanna do something, I'm gonna do it.

在生奥利之前我就读到过，人们成为母亲后多少会迷失自我，或者对事物的看法会发生很大改变。

I read up before having Ollie that people did somewhat lose themselves into becoming mothers or there was a lot of shift in how they saw things.

我觉得自己确实变得更会养育、更有爱心了，但我并没有试图抛弃过去的自己。

I think I've definitely become a lot more nurturing and a lot more caring, but I've not tried to lose the person that I was.

我想这也有赖于我工作时间的极端不规律。

I think it does also help that I work extremely crazy hours.

我会工作12小时然后回家，晚上陪奥利，最后工作到凌晨1点才睡觉。

I'll do twelve hour days and then come home, see Ollie throughout the nighttime, and then end up working until 1AM and go to sleep.

所以我觉得我只是在努力适应，而不是退缩或给自己时间去尝试不确定能否胜任的事情。

So I think I've just made it work rather than pulling back and giving myself time to take on things that I didn't know if I could.

母亲身份确实让我变得更温柔体贴，但丝毫没有削弱我对性的热情。

Motherhood's definitely changed me in a way of making me more loving and caring and considerate, but it definitely didn't take away any of my drive for my sexuality.

如果你发现自己倾向不同方向——毕竟你和杰米是'半开放关系'。

And if you did find that you were pulling in a different direction, so you're monogamish, you and Jamie.

但如果你想要一夫一妻制，这种关系会如何发展？

But if you wanted to be monogamous, how would that play out within the relationship?

是的。

Yeah.

我们之前就讨论过，有时会遇到某些人或伴侣与我们的气场不合，或者性互动方式不匹配，这时我们就会收手。

So we've had that conversation before where sometimes we'll feel like, you know, maybe we've had an experience where that particular person or that couple didn't really suit our vibe or how we sexually wanted to interact and we've pulled back.

我们自称'半开放关系'，更多是因为我这辈子只和杰米做爱也很幸福，但有时我们都会觉得'这样可能很有趣'——毕竟我们有相关经验。

When we say we're monogamish, think it's more because I would be happy to just have sex with Jamie for the rest of my life, but then there's times and moments where we both go, oh, this could be fun because we've experienced it before.

所以我们早就尝过这种滋味了。

So we have that taste already.

这不是我们刚开始尝试的新鲜事物。

So it's not something new that we're just starting to embark on.

我们都清楚，尽管选择权在手，但未必总要行使它——因为我们建立了如此稳固的关系，在性探索方面也很默契：有时我更倾向于拿个性玩具和杰米玩，而不是约其他伴侣或去换妻俱乐部。

I think we've both sat there and understood that even though the option's there, I don't think we always want to choose it because we have solidified such a great relationship together, and it's very compact in how we sexually explore because sometimes it's I'm more inclined to grab a toy out and play with a toy with Jamie than call up a couple or go to a swingers club.

但我觉得开一家换妻俱乐部也确实给我带来了困扰。

But I think also I get hindered by the fact that I own a swingers club.

是的。

So Yes.

我只想去我自己开的这家。

The only one I wanna go is mine.

但如果我去了那里，最后有一半时间都在工作。

And if I go there, I end up working half the time.

所以想随便去玩一下没那么容易。

So it's not as it's not as easy to just slip that one in.

嗯，就像你在可口可乐工作的话，喝百事可乐会被开除。

Well, also, because if you work for Coca Cola, you get sacked for drinking Pepsi.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以某种程度上你必须支持自己的生意。

So you kind of have to you have to support your own business.

不过话说回来，如果你在俱乐部过夜时正玩得尽兴

But in in light of that, if you're at a night at the club and you're getting amongst it

对。

Yep.

然后杰米在场，劳伦斯也在场。

And then Jamie's there, Lawrence is there.

嗯哼。

Mm-mm.

你和劳伦斯现在还有肉体关系吗？还是说分手后就结束了？

Do you and Lawrence still get physically involved, or did that end with your relationship ending?

有的。

Yeah.

那随着我们关系的结束而结束了。

That ended when our relationship ended.

劳伦斯和我现在完全是纯粹的柏拉图式关系。

Lawrence and I are strictly strictly platonic now.

所以我们只是朋友。

So we're just friends.

哦，这挺有意思的，不是吗？

Oh, that's interesting, isn't it?

是啊。

Yeah.

你们做出这个决定是为了关系明确，还是像你说的那样，吸引力自然转变成了兄妹般的情感？

Did you make that decision for clarity, or did attraction kind of just, like you said, become brotherly and sisterly?

这个决定是怎么形成的？

What what was the decision making?

对我来说，他确实变了，我开始更多把他看作兄长而非性伴侣。

I think definitely for me, he changed in the way that I did see him more as, like, that older brother rather than as a sexual partner.

我觉得很关键的一点是，他始终是我在探索开放式关系时寻求建议的对象，可以说是我的引路人。

I think it really helped that he was always that person I got advice from when I needed stuff about swinging, being the person that mentored me, I guess, into it.

我给他戴上了更多兄长般的光环。

I put him into more of a like a brotherly hat.

这确实帮助我们快速重建了友谊，并彻底剔除了性关系，让友情更加牢固。

I think it also just really helped with our relationship to build us back up quickly as friends and to really strengthen that to not involve sex into it at all.

我觉得性有时会让关系变得混乱，尤其是前任之间。

I think sex sometimes, especially with exes, can get a bit messy.

你觉得呢？

Do you?

有一点吧。

A little bit.

没关系。

And it's okay.

一切都会好起来的。

It's just gonna be fine.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这样很好，我们可以把全部精力投入到俱乐部上，而不是费力去维持那样的关系。

And I think we just it was nice being able to put all of our energy into the club rather than trying to put into energy of making something like that work.

我想我们也都找到了能满足所有需求的性伴侣，所以并不觉得彼此之间缺少什么。

I think also we both had found sexual partners that were ticking all the boxes that we needed, so I don't think we felt like we were missing that in each other.

那你们会刻意避开对方吗？

So then do you actively avoid each other?

因为我知道

Because I know

不会。

No.

我们不会刻意避开对方。

We don't actively avoid each other.

好的。

Okay.

有趣的是，现在我们的社交圈基本不重叠了，不过确实有些共同朋友会让我们偶尔碰面。

Thankfully, we kind of swing in different circles now, funny enough, but we do have mutual friends that we cross over with.

我们从未遇到过必须同处一个群体场合的尴尬情况。

We've not ever had to be in group situations where it's gonna be awkward.

我们讨论过，如果真的遇到群体场合，我们需要处理好这种情况。

We have had conversations about if we are in a group situation, we need to make that work.

是的。

Yes.

我们都是成年人了。

We're both adults.

我们一起经营这个俱乐部已经超过十年了。

We've both run the club together for over a decade now.

所以我认为我们非常有信心，如果劳伦斯想和他妻子在房间里玩，而我想和杰米玩，我们中任何一个人都能处理好，换个地方就行。

So I think we're very confident in the way that if Lawrence wanted to play with his wife in the room and I wanted to play with Jamie, we would just one of us would just make it work and just go somewhere else.

这没什么难的。

Like, it's there's nothing difficult to it.

那杰米和劳伦斯的妻子会在一起玩吗？还是不会？

And then would Jamie and Lawrence's wife ever get together or no?

不会。

No.

他们从没在一起过，我也不认为会有这种可能。

So they've never got together, and I don't see that ever happening.

不是因为我觉得他们互相没有吸引力或觉得对方不迷人，只是我认为我们四个人的关系不是那种运作方式。

Not out of I think they both have attraction and they both think they're attractive, but I just don't think our relationship, the four of us, works that way.

嗯。

Yeah.

我想问你这个问题，因为我对人如果没有一定的智性和情感连接，就很难产生强烈的身体吸引力。

I wanted to ask you about because I'm someone who doesn't feel a great degree of physical attraction to people without having some intellectual and emotional connection.

对。

Yep.

那么在换偶俱乐部里，什么更占上风？

So at a swingers club, what is stronger?

是身体吸引力先起作用，然后你就完全沉浸在肉体欢愉中了吗？

Is it the physical attraction, and then you get immersed in the physical?

看。

Look.

我认为两者兼而有之。

I think it's a bit of both.

那些更常去俱乐部的人会发现，心理层面的因素更重要。

People who have been to the club a lot more regularly find it's the more mental.

而对于初次体验者来说，身体层面更突出，因为你们从最容易的部分入手，视觉刺激总是比深入长谈更简单。

And I think for first timers, it's more of a physical because you work off the easiest thing, and sight is always easier than having long in-depth conversations.

对。

Right.

我确实发现身体互动在大家的相处或共度时光中仍占很大比重。

I do find physical does still take a big chunk into a lot of everyone's play or time with each other.

身体吸引通常是最容易让人产生好感的因素。

Physical is normally the one that people get attracted to the easiest.

但我认为人们留下来或建立更深层次联系，往往是因为心理层面的共鸣，比如有共同点或双方都想尝试的性体验。

But I think people stay or people build those extra connections with those mentally because they have similarities or they have something that they both sexually wanna try together.

我想这就是为什么他们会倾向于维持这样的关系。

And I think that's why they kind of deviate to stay in relationships like that.

这很有趣，因为我听播客时，你和劳伦斯正在采访一对去过俱乐部的夫妇。

It's interesting because I was listening to the podcast, and you you and Lawrence were talking to a couple who'd been to the club.

他们算是以新人的身份去的。

And they went it's kind of as newbies.

他们之前约人喝过酒，然后去了俱乐部。

They'd met some people before for a drink, and they went to the club.

他们当时都说'我们只是来看看'。

And they were both like, when we're just coming to look.

我们只是想

We just wanna

是啊。

Yeah.

能够在别人面前做爱。

Be able to have sex in front of other people.