38. 何为“好”男人？

我没什么重点，只是想自我批评一下。我是安吉拉·达克沃斯，我是史蒂芬·杜布纳，您正在收听的是《没有愚蠢的问题》。

I had no point. I just wanted to criticize myself. I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Steven Dubner. And you're listening to no stupid questions.

今天节目中，我们知道厌女症是错误的，

Today on the show, we know misogyny is wrong,

但厌男症呢？嘿，快告诉我你有多讨厌我。还有，

but what about misandry? Hey. Tell me more about how you hate me. Also, how

如何停止纠结那些你无法改变的事情？

do you stop obsessing over things you can't change?

所有反刍者都是反刍动物，但并非所有反刍动物都会反刍。安吉拉，今天我问你的问题有点循环论证，又有点元认知。

All who ruminate are ruminants, but not all ruminants necessarily ruminate. Angela, my question for you today is a little circular and a little meta.

完全没问题。

It's totally fine.

你最近在讨论邓宁-克鲁格效应那期节目后给我发了封邮件，写道：'昨天我和同事聊到他对此效应的怀疑。我认为更新后的观点是，这种现象可能存在且很可能存在，但会与回归到男人同时发生'

So you recently sent me an email after an episode in which we had discussed the Dunning Kruger effect, and you wrote, I was chatting with a colleague yesterday about his skepticism of the Dunning Kruger effect. I think my updated view is that it may occur and likely does, but does so alongside regression to the man,

那个...好吧，打错字了。

which Okay. Typo.

显然这只是个笔误，你本意是想打'回归均值'。但当我看到时，心想：哇哦，'回归到男人'，这可能是史上最棒的口误了——特别是联想到我们最近另一次谈话。

Now plainly, that was just a typo. You meant to type regression to the mean. But when I saw that, I thought, wow. Regression to the man. That is maybe the world's best Freudian slip ever, especially in light of a different recent conversation you and I had.

因为在另一次对话中，你提到了特里尔压力测试。

Because in this other conversation, you had brought up the Trier stress test.

嗯。特里尔社会压力测试。

Mhmm. The Trier social stress test.

我只是想播放这段片段让大家重新熟悉一下。好的。

I just wanna play you the clip to get it fresh in our mind. Okay.

你听说过特里尔社会压力测试吗？

Have you heard of the Trier social stress test?

我没听说过。

I have not.

我有个理论，只有男性会用自己名字命名事物。猜猜这个社会压力测试是谁发明的？没错，就是特里尔。

I have a theory that only men name things after themselves. So guess who came up with this social stress test? Yes. That's right. Treer.

特里尔发明的，他是个男的。

Treer did, and he was a dude.

有意思的是，安吉拉，这个理论后来被证明是错的。

Okay. Now interestingly, Angela, that turned out to be wrong.

等等，具体哪部分被证明错了？

Wait. What turned out to be wrong specifically?

这样，我播放事实核查给你听，因为瑞贝卡在这集结尾告诉我们真相是什么。我们也听听那段录音吧。

Well, here, I'll play you the fact check, cause Rebecca came in at the end of this episode to tell us what was actually what. So let's hear that clip too.

安吉拉说她有个理论，认为只有男性会用自己名字命名事物，并以特里尔社会压力测试为例。历史上确实有不少男性用自己名字命名事物。但特里尔社会压力测试并不符合这个说法。这个心理压力测试是由克莱门斯·基尔施鲍姆及其同事在1990年代初于德国特里尔市的特里尔大学开发的。

Angela says that she has a theory that only men name things after themselves, and she cites the Trier social stress test as an example. Men have certainly named quite a few things after themselves throughout history. However, the Trier Social Stress Test doesn't fit the bill. The test for psychological stress was developed in the early 1990s by Clemens Kirschbaum and his colleagues at the University of Trier in the German city of Trier.

所以，安吉，你很少出错。

So, Angie, you are so rarely wrong.

那是一种令人难堪的错误。特里尔，那座城市。

That's a kind of humiliating wrong. Trier, the city.

哎呀。但你看，这不是关于犯错误，因为我肯定比你犯的错误多得多。但让我震惊的是，你如此轻易地对男性做出那种贬低的评论，这让我不禁思考对男性的退行态度以及当前对男性的普遍看法。如果我对女性或其他任何群体（除了白人男性）说了类似的话，我会反省自己。任何形式的厌女症都是错误的。

Oops. But look, this is not about making an error because I've made, I'm sure, many more errors than you. But what struck me is the ease with which you made that disparaging comment about dudes did make me wonder about regression to the man and about current attitudes toward men generally. If I had said something similar about women or pretty much any group of people other than white men, I would check myself. Misogyny in all forms is wrong.

任何形式的种族主义和偏见都是错误的。所以我的问题是，对于厌男症，即对男性的蔑视和偏见，你怎么看？你认为它是合理的并且在上升吗？我想我完全理解纠正过去的愿望，但我好奇这会导向哪里以及如何结束。

Racism and prejudice in all forms is wrong. So here's my question. What about misandry, the contempt for prejudice against men? Do you think it's legit on the rise? I'd like to think I understand fully the desire to correct the past, but I am wondering where this leads and how it ends.

首先，我同意你的观点，如果你想对自认为是女性的那一半物种说些贬低的话，你可能会犹豫。你可能会先寻求法律或公关建议，然后可能不会说出你想说的话。而对男性进行抨击似乎有更多的自由。我同意这种不对称的犹豫是有原因的，问题是哪些原因是合理的，哪些不太合理。

I, first of all, would agree with you that if you wanted to say something disparaging about the half of the species that self identifies as women, that you'd probably pause. You might seek legal counsel or PR advice first, and then you might not say what you would have said. Whereas there seems to be a liberty in doing the opposite, like beating up on dudes. I agree that there's more hesitation. I think the question would be, what reasons are legitimate and what reasons are less legitimate for that hesitation or that asymmetry in the column of, like, well, here's a reason why you should pause more.

我的意思是，我们仍然生活在一个权力不仅在美利坚合众国，而且在全世界任何指标上都偏向男性的社会。

I mean, we still live in a society where the power is not only in The United States, but around the world in favor of men on any metric.

而且，厌女症的数量仍然巨大。我看了去年联合国的一项关于全球性别不平等的研究，分析显示尽管几十年来在缩小男女平等差距方面取得了进展，但近90%的男性和女性对女性持有某种偏见。

And, also, the amount of misogyny is still massive. I was looking at this UN study from last year, which looks at gender inequality around the world, and it said the analysis reveals that despite decades of progress closing the equality gap between men and women, close to 90% of men and women hold some sort of bias against women.

是的。我上个月刚读了一本书，是提前版，但我想它会在春天出版。我一口气读完了。书名是《我是非洲女孩》，作者是伊丽莎白·纳亚·马亚罗。

Yeah. I read a book just last month. It was an advanced copy, but I think it's coming out in the spring. I read it cover to cover. It's called I'm a girl from Africa, and it's by a woman named Elizabeth Naya Mayaro.

当她描述全球范围内的厌女症程度时，不仅仅是态度，还有对女性的暴力行为——我甚至在新泽西州的樱桃山（我长大的地方）也可能存在厌女症，但那种程度我无法完全想象，只能通过阅读别人的经历来了解。因此，我认为这是为什么对弱势的一半物种说贬低的话需要犹豫的一个合理原因。我们指向的是一个现实。

And when she describes the levels of misogyny and not just attitudes, but violent behavior toward women around the world I mean, there may even misogyny in Cherry Hill, New Jersey where I grew up, but it's at a level that I couldn't even really fully picture except by reading what somebody else has experienced. So I think that is one reason why the hesitation to say disparaging things about the less powerful half of the species is warranted. There is a reality there that we're pointing to.

所以我想，我意识到了这段历史有多么深远，以及女性不平等在整个历史中有多么严重，这不是我们在这里能完全讨论的。但当我只看过去五到十年，尤其是Me Too运动公开揭露了那些未被承认或未被意识到的一群男性的可怕行为时，问题就变成了：有多少比例的男性是可怕的？然后，性别关联的负罪感有多少或应该有多少？因此，我开始在二战纳粹主义的背景下思考这个问题，因为这似乎是我常常回归的一个框架。

So I am, I think, aware of how much deeper this history is and how much larger female inequality is throughout history than we can address here. But I guess when I look at just the last five to ten years, especially with Me Too, Me Too exposed publicly, for those who hadn't acknowledged or been aware, the horrible behavior of a bunch of men. But then the question becomes, well, what share of men are horrible? And then how much guilt by gender association is there or should there be? So I start to think about this question in context, of course, of Nazism in World War two just because it somehow is a frame that I revert to.

但我想到了关于‘好德国人’的老观念。

But I think about the old notion of the good German.

那是什么？

What is that?

‘好德国人’指的是二战期间及战后那些不支持纳粹政权，但也没有反对或反抗的德国公民。我之所以想到这个，是因为对某些非德国人的一代来说，德国成了一个全是恶棍的国家。你看，我觉得人们一直在就特朗普时代的共和党进行这样的讨论。当党派的领导人是你在一或多个层面上都难以接受的人时，身为共和党人意味着什么？所以问题就变成了，你如何将个人从更大的群体中区分出来，尤其是当这个更大的群体正受到抨击时？

The good German refers to German citizens during and after the second world war who didn't support the Nazi regime, but didn't object or fight back. And and I was thinking about this because for a certain generation of non Germans, Germany became a nation that was all villain. And look, I think people have been having this conversation about the Republican party in the age of Trump. You know, what does it mean to be a Republican if the leader of the party is someone that you find objectionable on one or many levels. So the question becomes, how do you separate out individuals from a larger group, especially when the larger group is under assault?

我并不是说男性正受到抨击。

And I'm not saying men are under assault.

有些男性会说男性正受到抨击。

Some men would say that men are under assault.

我想确实有人这么说。对此我想说的是，即使存在广泛的厌男现象——我并不是说确实存在——它可能也只是针对女性的性别不平等的一个影子。

I guess people do say that. And I guess what I say to that is that even if there's widespread misandry, and I'm not saying there is, it's probably just a shadow of the gender inequality directed at women.

没错。所以厌男，我认为永远不能说是一件好事。我不明白仅仅因为知道某一大群体的特征就憎恨他们怎么会是好事。但我必须说，我理解为什么人们对男性可能做出的可疑或错误行为会有不对称的敏感。

Right. So misandry, I don't think can ever be said to be a good thing. I don't see how hating any large segment of the population only knowing their demographic characteristic could ever be good. But I have to say, I understand why it is that there's asymmetric sensitivity to things that guys could be doing that are questionable or wrong.

我确实好奇男女关系变化的方式会带来什么后果。一个可能不太恰当的类比，但我想到了《美国残疾人法案》多年前的一些研究，该法案旨在为各种残疾人提供机会和保护，但结果之一是某些残疾人的雇佣率实际上大幅下降，这是一个悲哀的意外后果。

I do wonder about the ramifications of the way the relationship between men and women is changing. And one parallel, which is probably a terrible parallel, but it's what came to my mind, is some research done around the Americans with Disabilities Act years ago, which found that after the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, which was meant to provide all sorts of opportunities and protections for people with a variety of disabilities, one result of that was that people with certain disabilities were actually hired much less often, and it was a sad unintended consequence.

为什么会这样？

And why was that?

据我所知，原因是如果你是一个雇主，雇佣了一个残疾人，他们现在受到的保护程度使得即使他们工作表现极差，你也不能像以前那样轻易解雇他们，因此，雇主的反应就是一开始就避免雇佣他们。这显然与立法的初衷背道而驰，尽管法案确实实现了许多其他目标。但过去几年我开始想，那些仍掌控许多资源的男性是否在某些情况下会避免雇佣本应被雇佣的女性。我认为这是对当前情况的一种粗暴回应，但我不会对此感到惊讶。

The reason as best I understand was that if you're an employer and you hire someone with a disability, they are now protected to a degree that even if they're really bad at their job, you're not going to be able to fire them as readily as you might have before, and therefore, the response is to just avoid hiring them in the first place. And so that's obviously counter to what the legislation was meant to accomplish even though the legislation did accomplish many other things. But I did begin to wonder over these last several years if men who still run a lot of stuff will, in some circumstances, avoid hiring women who should be hired. And I think that'd be a brute force response to what's going on, but I wouldn't be shocked to see it.

这也不算新鲜事了，你不觉得吗？老实说，无论是男性还是女性，都可能会说，哦，她可能会怀孕，或者她要结婚了。无论如何，这在政策层面上是个非常棘手的问题。如果出现这种非预期的后果

It wouldn't be new either, don't you think? Men might men or women, honestly, say, oh, well, she's gonna get pregnant or, like, she's gonna get married. Anyway, that's a very tough nut to crack policy wise. If there is this unintended consequence

你不想

you don't

让事情像你刚才说的那样发展，我没有什么好主意来应对这种情况，你呢？

want to have play out in the way that you just said, I don't have a great idea of how to counter that, do you?

嗯，我想说的是，丹麦或者可能是瑞典有一些政策——我把所有斯堪的纳维亚国家混为一谈了——如果你把陪产假和产假设置得一样长，那么这往往能很好地平衡事情。

Well, there are some policies in I wanna say Denmark, might be Sweden. I'm lumping all the Scandinavians together, where if you make paternity leave as long as maternity leave, then that tends to equilibrate things pretty well.

哦，有意思。所以你只是创造了平等的激励措施。

Oh, interesting. So you just create incentives for equality.

而且我记得，如果我没记错的话——这肯定不对，所以我肯定记错了——但我想说的是，男性可能被要求休陪产假，只是为了不给他们不公平的优势。但我不确定。也许我是对的。

And I think, if I recall correctly, this can't be right. So I'm sure I'm recalling incorrectly. But I was gonna say that men are maybe required to take that paternity leave just to not give them an unfair advantage. But I don't know. Maybe I am right.

也许丽贝卡可以帮我们查清楚。

Maybe Rebecca can find that out for us.

我知道在许多大学里，如果你有孩子，你可以选择在终身教职评审时钟上额外增加一年。

I know that for tenure in many universities, you have, like, an optional year to add on to your clock if you have a baby.

所以可能是八年而不是七年？

So eight years instead of seven maybe?

是的。我认为这是一个相对较新的变化，许多大学表示，无论你是男性教职员工还是女性教职员工，都适用这一政策。

Yeah. I think it was a relatively new change that many universities said that applies if you're a male faculty member or a female faculty member.

这种做法是否已在足够多的地方实施，从而形成一个可以准确测量效果的自然实验？

And has that been done in enough places that there's a natural experiment where the effect can be measured well?

我认为没有。我们讨论的是小样本量，而且大学有很多特性会伴随这类变革同时发生。所以很难下定论。但正如你所说，有时会产生这种意想不到的后果——你可以传递出不需要额外那一年学习的信号。

I don't think so. We're talking about small n's, and then there are lots of features of universities that make that kind of change that go along with that. So it's very hard to say. But to your point, then you get this sometimes unintended consequence that you can signal that you don't need the extra year.

有意思。

Interesting.

所以强制增加学年虽有好处，但也有弊端。顺便说下，这正是我不涉足政策制定的原因——太难了。就像，哦对，在另一面另一面另一面可能会出现这种情况...

So maybe enforcing the extra year, but then there's downsides. This is, by the way, even why I don't do policy. It's too hard. It's like, oh, right. On the other other other hand, this might happen.

对此我确实没有完美答案，但我想提到《我是非洲女孩》这本书。我了解到有个叫'他为她'的性别平等团结运动，核心理念是：要建立更公平、减少厌女现象的社会，就需要扭转局面——不是将男性视为对立面，而是让他们成为盟友。重点在于争取知名男性CEO或世界领袖公开承诺支持某项招聘政策或制度改革。

So I don't really have a good answer to this, but I mentioned that book, I'm a girl from Africa. I learned about this solidarity movement for gender equality called he for she. Basically, the idea is that if you are gonna be looking for a more equitable society where there's less misogyny, that you have to turn the tables a bit. And instead of making men the opponents, that you would make them your allies. So a lot of it is about getting, like, prominent male CEOs or world leaders to stand up and say, I commit to, you know, this hiring practice or this policy change.

没错。我欣赏这个理念。你看，有研究显示即使原本反对或中立看待某些女性权益立法的男性，如果他们有了女儿，态度也会转变。

Right. I love that idea. And look. There's been interesting research about how even men who had opposed or been neutral on certain kind of female positive legislation, they will change if they have daughters, for instance.

那个著名的'女儿效应'研究。

The famous daughter study.

是的。

Yeah.

你想概述下吗？我超爱这个研究。

Do you want to recap it? I love this study.

你可以来概述。

You can recap.

这类研究简直让我嫉妒自己怎么没想到这么棒的主意。你刚才问我随机分配研究的问题——养育孩子和他们的性别可以说是最接近随机分配的情况了。你无法控制这一点，也不会与其他因素混淆。

It's like the kind of study that just makes me jealous that I didn't have this great idea. So you asked me about random assignment studies. Well, having a kid and their gender is pretty much as random assignment as it can get. You don't have control over it. It's not confounded with anything.

问题在于，如果你恰好养育的是女儿而非儿子，或除了儿子还有女儿，这对你会产生什么影响？因为拥有女儿，你的女性态度会受到怎样的干预效应？这项研究针对大公司CEO展开。那些有女儿的CEO领导的企业，在产假等政策上要进步得多。我觉得这个实验设计非常精妙，而且我很好奇养育儿子会产生什么效果。

And the question would be, if by chance you happen to have girls and not boys or girls in addition to boys, what's the influence on you? What kind of intervention effect is there on your attitudes towards women because you've had daughters? This is studied with large corporation CEOs. Companies led by CEOs who have daughters have much more progressive policies for parental leave and the like. And I think it's such a beautiful experiment, and I kinda wonder what the effect of having boys is.

我有两个女儿，完全不了解养育儿子的体验。我猜自己对于男性成长经历的理解相当有限，因为在我们家只有一个男性，就是我丈夫。

I have two girls, and I don't know anything about what it's like to have a son. And I'm guessing that my perspective on growing up as a guy, being a guy is fairly limited because in our family, there's only one of them, and it's my husband.

确实。我认为很多年轻男性在小学，尤其是初高中阶段，正面临着大量需要摸索和学习的事情。很多人都在艰难地与姐妹、母亲、女友以及女性朋友探讨：如何在保持自我的同时，又能成为不被视为异类、更不被看作威胁或敌人的那种年轻或成熟男性。我读过《时代》杂志莎拉·贝格利的一篇文章，那是很久以前的事了。

Yeah. I think for a lot of young men, in grade school, but especially middle school and high school, there's a lot that they're trying to figure out and learn right now. I think there are a lot of people who are struggling to have conversations with their sisters and their mothers and their girlfriends and their friends who are female about how I can be who I am and also be the kind of young man or older man that is not seen as, a, an other and, b, as a detriment or an enemy. I read a piece by Sarah Begley in Time magazine. It was a while back.

她在文章里提到'讽刺性厌男症'。我读一小段：'当女权主义者开玩笑说自己是厌男者时，她们是在戏谑那种认为女权主义者仇恨男性的流行误解。但厌男这个词本身就带有仇恨意味，而‘禁止男性’、‘男性眼泪’这类短语隐含着残酷与暴力。'她写道，女权主义者真正憎恶的是父权制度——那套系统性压迫女性的制度网络。

She was writing about sardonic misandry. I'll read a little chunk. When feminists joke that they are misandrists, they are riffing off the misguided popular notion that they are man haters. But inherent in this word misandry is hatred and inherent in phrases like ban men and male tears are cruelty and violence. What feminists really hate, she writes, is the patriarchy, the web of institutions that systematically oppress women.

而要瓦解这个体系，我们（指女性）需要争取尽可能多的盟友。即使开玩笑地告诉半数人类我们憎恨他们，绝非明智之举。

And to tear it down, we, meaning women, need as many allies as we can get. Telling half the population that we hate them, even in jest, is not the way to do that.

我觉得这个观点非常睿智。这就像是'他为她'运动的核心理念。当遭受攻击时，没人会想'来啊，多告诉我些你有多恨我'。所以把你们认为实施压迫的那半数人类变成更具防御性、攻击性的对手，本质上毫无逻辑可言。

I think that's very wise. I think that's, like, the whole logic of he for she. And none of us, when attacked, are like, hey. Tell me more about how you hate me. So there's no logic really in making the half of the species that you feel is doing all the oppressing into an even more defensive, aggressive opponent.

我们最不希望在这个历史阶段看到的，就是简单地走向另一个极端——用新的刻板印象来取代延续多年的旧刻板印象。

I think that one of the things we hope wouldn't come out of a historical era like the one we're living in, we don't want to have just, like, let's go in the opposite direction. Let's have other stereotypes to replace the stereotypes that we've had for years.

接下来在《无蠢问题》节目中，史蒂文将思考他的应对方式

Still to come on No Stupid Questions, Steven wonders if his way

处理负面事件的方式是否心理健康。你消化问题然后将其抛诸脑后的速度令我震惊。史蒂文，我刚收到姐姐的邮件，准备逐字读给你听。你介意吗？

of dealing with negative events is psychologically healthy. The speed at which you're able to process it and then put it in your rearview mirror is startling to me. Steven, I got an email from my sister, which I'm gonna read to you verbatim. Are you okay with that?

我是。你姐姐是医生吗？

I am. Your sister is a doctor?

她是生殖内分泌科医生。

She is a reproductive endocrinologist.

这具体是什么意思？她是帮助人们怀孕的吗？

What does that mean exactly? She helps people have babies?

哦，如果你在怀孕方面遇到困难，那她就是能帮到你的医生。

Oh, if you're having a difficult time getting pregnant, then she's the doctor for you.

我多年来一直在这方面非常困难。

I've had a very difficult time for years.

我不确定她是否能专门帮到你。不过，我妹妹安妮特——她其实是这个节目的忠实粉丝——她写道：给你的播客提个建议。如何停止对某件事的忧虑，尤其是那些你无法改变的过去之事，那些‘本可以、本应该’的遗憾？所以，史蒂文，你会反复思考吗？如果是的话，你是否像我妹妹感觉的那样，认为这对你产生了负面影响？

I don't know if she can help you specifically. But, anyway, my sister Annette, who is actually a big fan of this show, writes, here's an idea for your podcast. How do you stop consternating about something, especially something that you can't change because it is in the past, woulda, coulda, shoulda? So, Steven, do you ruminate? And if so, do you feel, as my sister seems to feel, that it affects you negatively?

说到‘反刍’，我猜你不是在问我是否像牛那样咀嚼自己的反刍物，这正是牛被称为反刍动物的原因。你问的是另一回事。

So by ruminate, I assume you do not mean to ask whether I chew my own cud, which is what cows do, which is what makes them ruminants. This is something different that you're asking about.

哦，是的。那确实是‘反刍’的另一个定义，但我指的不是像牛那样咀嚼反刍物。

Oh, yes. That is actually another definition for rumination, but I did not mean chewing cud as a cow does.

没错。但‘反刍者’也确实可以用来形容一个反复思考的人。有趣的是，所有反复思考的人都是‘反刍者’，但并非所有‘反刍者’都会反复思考。

Right. But it is true that a ruminant also describes a person who ruminates. So it's interesting that all who ruminate are ruminants, but not all ruminants necessarily ruminate.

或许这其中还有更深层的含义，因为我指的是对过去负面经历的强迫性思考。这是一种对你不喜欢的特定过往事件的沉溺。这种思维模式与临床抑郁症之间有非常紧密的联系。或许这与牛反刍的行为也有某种关联，因为你确实是在反复‘咀嚼’某件事。

And maybe there's a deeper meaning there because I meant it as obsessive thinking about a past experience that is negative. So it's a kind of dwelling on a specific past thing that you don't like. There's this really strong connection between this thought pattern and clinical depression. And maybe there is a tie in with rumination of the cow chewing their cud because you really are sort of grinding, you know, masticating on something over and over again.

好吧，我得这么说。你已经回答了我的后续问题，我猜你是来告诉我们沉思并非好事，至少过度如此。没错。不得不说，你给我的印象是个不常反刍思考的人。

Well, I will say this. You have answered my follow-up question, which was, I assume you're here to tell us that rumination is not a good thing, at least in excess. Correct. You strike me as a nonruminant, I have to say.

老实说，我不太会反复思考。当她发那封邮件给我时，我开始查阅所有关于沉思的研究。那感觉就像探索一个陌生国度。

I don't ruminate that much, honestly. When she sent me that email, I started looking up all the research on rumination. It was like exploring a foreign country.

这些人是谁？

Who are these people?

正是如此。我觉得非常有趣，因为我通常不会沉溺于那些带有强烈负面情绪色彩的过往经历。

Exactly. It's very interesting to me because I don't actually dwell on past episodes that have a lot of negative emotional charge as a rule.

所以当我思考你的问题时，我确实有个鲜明的童年记忆——来自少年棒球联盟的某个夜晚，那天我担任投手。我从来不是个好投手，我们输掉比赛是因为我被同一个孩子戴夫·普里斯特击出两支全垒打。那晚我辗转难眠，之后好多天都控制不住地想这件事。我想那就是沉思吧？

So as I think about your question, I do have a very strong memory from childhood, from little league, from a specific night where I was pitching on this night, and I was never a very good pitcher. And we lost because I gave up two home runs to the same kid, Dave Priest. And I could not go to sleep that night, and I couldn't stop thinking about it for days and days and days. I think that was ruminating. Right?

是的。我当时在脑海里反复盘旋这个负面事件。但我要说，尽管这段记忆如此突出，我认为自己已经进步很多。事实上，我可能不如安吉拉·达克沃斯那样完全不反刍思考，但或许接近了。如果你是黑带，黑带之前是什么？

Yes. I was obsessively circling in my mind this negative event. But I will say this, as much as that memory jumps out, I think I've gotten a lot better. In fact, I may not be as nonrubinatory as Angela Duckworth, but I think I might be. If you're a black belt, what comes before black?

不知道，大概是棕带吧。

I don't know. Brown belt, I think.

我要说是栗色带。我就像栗色带水平。现在我很好奇，这是我个人通过努力获得的成长，还是说随着成熟我们都会自然改善？你知道吗？

I'll say maroon. I'm like maroon belt. And now I'm curious to know whether this is an individual gain that I've actually done something to promote that or whether we all just get better as we mature. Do you know?

我不确定随着年龄增长是否普遍会减少沉思。其实我开始阅读我博士导师另一位学生的研究，她叫苏珊·诺兰·赫胥玛，曾在耶鲁任教，也是《临床心理学年鉴》的创刊编辑。她是这个领域的巨擘。

I don't know whether in general we ruminate less as we get older. I started reading actually the research of a former student of my same PhD adviser. Her name was Susan Nolan Huxma. She was at Yale and the founding editor for the annual review of clinical psychology. She was a giant in the field.

她不幸早逝，但确实是研究沉思与抑郁的世界级专家。所以我一直在如饥似渴地研读她的著作——不是沉溺其中，而是认真研读。我不知道她是否提及年龄与沉思的关系。不过她确实多次谈到性别差异，这方面很多人都讨论过。

She unfortunately died early in her life, but she actually was the world expert on rumination and depression. And so I have been reading her work obsessively, not ruminating on it, but I've been reading it. I don't know whether she said anything about age and ruminate. She said a lot about gender, by the way, as many people have.

告诉我们你能做什么

Tell us what you can

关于性别的话题。女性和女孩比同龄男性更容易陷入反刍思维，这部分解释了为何女性临床抑郁和焦虑水平更高。这是有充分文献记载的差异。顺便说一句，这并不意味着它是永久性的。也许十年后情况会逆转，就像许多性别差异已经发生逆转一样。

about gender then. So women and girls ruminate a whole lot more than males of the same age, And this in part explains why there is a gender difference with women experiencing higher levels of clinical depression and anxiety. That's a pretty well documented difference. And by the way, doesn't mean that it's permanent. It could be that ten years from now, it flips as a lot of things have actually flipped for gender differences.

但我认为理解反刍思维的关键在于，它可能源于自我反思的适应性能力。我们能在脑海中复盘事件、思考自身角色及不同做法，这本来是好事。就像某些功能对部分人来说变成了缺陷。

But I think the thing to understand about rumination is that it probably stems from an adaptive capacity for self reflection. So it's a good thing that we can turn things over in our mind about what happened and replay them and think about what role we had and what we would have done differently. It's kind of like a feature that becomes a bug for some people.

本质上就像是好东西过量了？

Along the lines of too much of a good thing, essentially?

没错。某种能力或倾向过度发展，有时能帮助我们，但也可能带来麻烦。

Yeah. Too much of a capacity or a tendency that can serve us sometimes, but can get us into trouble.

就像吃东西一样。

Like eating.

是的，完全正确。我认为关键在于我们能否以更具适应性的方式进行自我反思和聚焦思考——这其实是认知疗法的核心启示。正如苏珊·诺兰-霍克斯莫会说的：反思优于反刍。

Yeah. Exactly. And I think this idea that we can have self reflection and self focused thinking in more adaptive ways I mean, really, this is the great lesson of cognitive therapy, right, that you can reflect on yourself but maybe process it more. So I think what Susan Nolan Huxemow would have said is reflection is better than rumination. Rumination.

对。听你这么说时，我正在回想人生中最大的逆境。当我遭遇痛苦的负面记忆时，确实会尝试彻底处理它。

Right. As you mentioned that, and I'm thinking through the biggest adverse events in my life, I think that when I get hit with a hard negative memory, I do try to process it fully.

这对你意味着什么？

What does that mean to you?

我会从尽可能多的角度审视它：分析为何如此痛苦、事件成因、可能的改变空间——是否存在可改变的真实因果机制，还是单纯运气不好？彻底剖析后，我会告诉自己这已是后视镜里定格的事物，而非持续纠缠伤害我的动态存在，即便这多少带点自我欺骗。

Well, I examine it from as many sides as I can. I try to talk myself through why it's so hurtful, why it happened, what could have been done differently. Were there real causal mechanisms that could have been changed or prevented, or was it bad luck? And then after I interrogate it, I really do try to tell myself that is a fixed item in the rearview mirror. It's not a dynamic one that will continue to haunt me or hurt me even if, in fact, I'm deceiving myself a little bit.

现在仔细想想，我发现自己确实不怎么反复纠结，对此我真的很感激。我感觉自己能够屏蔽坏消息或糟糕事件，要么是我特别幸运或与世隔绝，要么这可能是一种逃避和防御机制。

So now that I think about it, I guess I don't ruminate very much, and I'm really grateful. I feel like I can turn off bad news or bad events, and that I'm really either lucky or cloistered, or maybe this is evasion and defense mechanism.

听起来你并没有在否认，而否认是人们常用的一种应对机制。顺便说，我们来具体化一下。比如假设你和配偶发生了争执，听起来你不会装作'什么争执？我完全不明白你在说什么'的样子。

Well, it doesn't sound like you're in denial, which is one of the coping mechanisms that people use. By the way, let's make this concrete. Say, for example, you have an argument with your spouse. It sounds like you're not like, what argument? I have no idea what you're talking about.

你是在用更反思性、理性的方式处理问题，这实际上不是否认，而且非常适应性强。这正是认知疗法要教会人们的方式。这种方式之所以适应性强，是因为它能导向行动。而反复纠结的问题在于，当我们沉溺于那些螺旋式下降、永无止境地重播负面事件并产生负面情绪时，它实际上不会推动你采取行动。而你所说的这种思考方式则会。

You're processing it in a more reflective, rational way, which is actually not denial, and it's very adaptive. It's what you go to cognitive therapy to learn how to do. And one of the reasons why it's adaptive is it leads to action. And one of the problems with rumination is that by indulging ourselves in these tail spinning, never ending cycles of replaying a negative event and then having the negative emotion, it doesn't actually propel you into action. And the kind of thinking that I hear you talking about does.

你越说这个，我越想越意识到自己似乎完全不会反复纠结。虽然五分钟前我可能还认为这是很大的优点，但你现在让我重新思考，或许有时候我做得太过头了。

The more you talk about it, the more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't seem to ruminate at all. And while I might have seen this five minutes ago as a strong positive, you're kinda making me rethink it to consider that maybe sometimes I go too far.

你是说你连反思性处理都不做？直接就完全不去想它？

You mean you don't even do the reflective processing? You just don't think about it?

我觉得我会做一个非常快速的版本。

I think I do a really quick version of it.

就像快速通道那样。

Like the express lane.

对，快速纠结。我能看出这其中的危险。我觉得我比大多数人更倾向于完全切断某些事情，可能比建议的程度还要彻底。

Yeah. Expresination. And I can see that there would be danger in that. I think I tend to cut things off entirely more than many people do and maybe more than is advisable.

我见证过这点。知道吗？有时候（虽然不常发生），我们会收到一些言辞尖锐的邮件，来自不喜欢我们在节目中讨论方式的人。而我花在反复思考这封邮件、回忆节目内容上的时间，大概是你处理同样邮件时间的10倍。你觉得我说得对吗？

I've witnessed this. You know what? Sometimes, not often, we get a little bit of a nasty gram in the form of an email from somebody who doesn't like the way we discuss something on this show. And the number of seconds that I spend thinking about the email, rethinking about the email, trying to remember what we said on the show is about 10 x the amount of time that you spend on the same email. Do you think I have that right?

可能实际上是12倍。没错。

Maybe 12 x, actually. Yeah.

是啊，我懂。对吧？

Yeah. I know. Right?

说实话，我会先审视一下，然后问自己：这里是否有合理之处？大概有8%的情况确实存在。你看，我干这行很久了，你也是，只是领域不同。不过这个节目不一样，因为我们只是在这里闲聊。

To be honest, I'll give it a look, and I'll say, is there a legitimate point here? And I would say maybe about eight percent of the time, there is. And look. I've been doing this a long time, as have you, in different arenas. Now that said, this show is different because we're just talking here.

所以不可避免地，我们——可能主要是我——会说些听起来刻薄的话，偶尔有人这么评价我。而安吉拉不仅比我聪明得多（这点我完全承认），还比我善良体贴得多。

And so inevitably, we, probably more likely I, am going to say something that just sounds, you know, snarky is one thing I get called occasionally. And that Angela is not only way smarter than me, which I fully acknowledge, but also so much kinder and nicer.

别停，继续。但你的意思是说你...

Don't stop. Keep going. But your point is that you

我没什么深意，就是想自我批评一下。

I had no point. I just wanted to criticize myself.

听着，你处理情绪然后迅速释怀的速度让我震惊。

Well, look. I think that the speed at which you're able to process it and then put it in your rearview mirror is startling to me.

这点我也承认。我在想，当负面情绪出现时，大概有几条应对路径：你可以用积极想法替代消极念头，可以尝试清空大脑，或者试图压抑它。你觉得哪种最有效？

And I acknowledge that as well. It strikes me that if you've got, let's say, a negative thought, it seems that there are a few potential routes you could go. You could try to replace the negative thought with the positive one. You could just try to clear your mind, or you could try to suppress it. Do you have any idea which is the most effective?

我在斯坦福的好友兼同事詹姆斯·格罗斯是情绪调节领域的权威。他认为处理强烈情绪记忆时，最糟糕的方式就是压抑——直接强迫自己不要难过。

So my good friend and colleague James Gross at Stanford is one of the world experts in emotion regulation. And he would say the worst way to deal with a negative emotion in particular. So if it's in a very, very emotional memory and you're trying to manage the feelings, that suppression, directly trying to will yourself not to feel bad.

你是说这反而是最佳方案？肯定该这么做对吧？

That's the way to go, you're saying. Right? That's definitely the way to go.

不不不，史蒂文，这绝对是最差选择。

No. No. No. This is gonna come in last place, Steven.

是啊，我也这么觉得。

Yeah. I thought so.

非常非常非常糟糕——顺便说一句，多数人直觉上认为处理负面情绪就该这样：干脆别那么想。但压抑并不好。实际上他主张策略性地转移注意力，比如现在很多人实践的'三件好事'仪式。

Very, very, very bad, which by the way is the way that most people think is intuitively the way you deal with negative emotions, like, just don't feel that way. Yeah. So suppression is not good. I think he is actually a fan of strategically distracting yourself. For example, many people practice now a three blessings ritual.

他们只是列举最近一两天发生的三件好事。我们过去讨论过这个，这是用积极想法排挤或替代消极想法的方式。必须提一下，这个领域有位我很敬佩的心理学家伊桑·克罗斯，他也是我的好友。他在棉花糖实验之父沃尔特·米歇尔门下受训，专门研究自我对话。

They simply name three good things that happened in the last day or so. We've done some talking about that in the past. So that is a way of taking positive thoughts that do kind of crowd out or replace the negative thoughts. And they have to just say that there's a psychologist I really admire on this topic, Ethan Cross, who's also a good friend. He trained under Walter Mischel, the marshmallow test guy, and he studies self talk.

就是我们脑海中那些小对话

The little conversations we have in our head

就是你们说的'思维杂音'对吧？心理学专有名词？

It's what you people call chatter. Right? That's the psychophrase for it?

伊桑特别指出'杂音'这个词很贴切，因为它持续不断，有时我们关注内心杂音，有时不关注，但人人都有。最具毒性的杂音是那些反刍式的消极悲观想法，这是临床抑郁症最强烈的预测指标之一。他的建议是用更反思性的方式处理问题——既不要只花两毫秒对待负面事件，也别耗费二十小时纠结。

Ethan, in particular, says chatter is a great word for it because it's constantly going on, and sometimes we pay attention to our inner chatter, and sometimes we don't, but we all have inner chatter. And I think the most nefarious forms of chatter are these ruminatory negative pessimistic thoughts. It's one of the strongest predictors of clinical depression there is. And his prescription is that you want to process things in a more reflective way. I think they would like you to spend more than two milliseconds on negative events, but fewer than, you know, twenty hours.

之后你应该采取实际行动，以解决问题为导向。或许你可以快速处理，史蒂文。

And then you're supposed to actually take action afterwards, like problem solving as an orientation. And maybe you just do it fast, Steven.

重申一下，我不敢说自己擅长避免反刍思维，但确实认为练习和经验有帮助。思考这个话题时，我觉得很大程度上要追溯到我童年丧亲的经历——十岁那年父亲去世。不是说人人都该经历这种事，但这确实是学习处理逆境的一课。我也不否认可能留下了心理伤痕。

Well, again, I don't mean to claim that I'm really good at not ruminating, but I do think that practice helps and experience helps. And as I think about this topic, I think a lot of it does go back to the fact that I lost a parent when I was a kid. I was 10 when my dad died. And I'm not suggesting that everyone should go through this, but it definitely was a lesson and an opportunity in how to process and deal with adverse events. And I'm not saying there isn't perhaps some scar tissue from that.

多年来别人注意到我有个特点：不愿与很多人建立亲密关系。用心理学家的话说，童年丧亲会让你...

One thing that's been observed about me, at least for many years, was that I was reluctant to form really close relationships with a lot of people because as the psychologist would say, when you're a kid and a parent dies

噢，这是依恋理论问题。你产生了不安全感，不再想与人亲近。

Oh, it's an attachment theory thing. You had insecurity that you didn't wanna get close to people anymore.

没错。即使不是有意识地清算这些，仅仅是想到你以为会永远存在的人突然消失，你会如何处理？所以我不确定这与我现在的非忧郁性格必然相关，但我确实认为我很早就明白，如果我沉溺于过去的悲伤或痛苦，至少我个人无法将其转化为富有成效的东西。我能找到的富有成效的方式就是，正如我们讨论的，处理它，制定一个通常与不幸事件无关的行动计划，并付诸实施。所以这可能是一种接近于否认的分散注意力形式，但我对此很满意，说实话。

Right. Even if not a conscious reckoning of that, just this idea that someone that you assume is permanent is suddenly gone, and what do you do with that? So I'm not sure that that is necessarily connected to my nonrheumatoid nature now, but I do think that I learned from a pretty early age that if I dwell on sad or painful things from the past, at least I personally couldn't find a way to turn that into something fruitful and productive. The way I could find to be fruitful and productive would be to, as we've been discussing, process it, come up with a plan of action that's often unrelated to the adverse event, and move into that plan of action. So maybe that's a form of distraction that lies a bit short of denial, but I'm happy with it, honestly.

你应该对此感到满意，史蒂文。我认为有些人从未找到摆脱沉思泥潭的梯子。你找到了一个梯子。我不知道你是否绊倒了它。我不知道是否有人为你放置了它，但你爬了出来，然后你想，哦，等等。

You should be happy with it, Steven. The thing I think that happens to some people is they never discover the ladder out of the pit of rumination. You found a ladder. I don't know if you tripped on it. I don't know if somebody had put it there for you, but you climbed out and you're like, oh, wait.

有一种更好的方式来度过负面事件。我认为这可能是许多人去治疗的部分原因，主要是因为他们自己找不到梯子，而他们所做的只是强化了这个习惯。

There's a much better way to move past negative events. And I think this is partly why maybe largely why a lot of people go to therapy is that they can't find the ladder on their own, and all that happens is they reinforce this habit.

是的。我能理解。看来你不是一个沉溺于沉思的人。我也不是。当我想到终极的非沉思者时，我想到了，比如一个黑帮分子，他出去杀人，反复刺伤对方的脸和心脏。

Yeah. I can see that. So it seems that you're not a ruminator. I'm not a ruminator. When I think about the ultimate non ruminator, I think about, like, a gangster who goes out and has to kill someone and stabs them repeatedly in the face and the heart.

天啊，史蒂文。那描述得太生动了。

God, Steven. That was vivid.

然后回家吃一块血淋淋的牛排。

And then goes home and eats a steak bloody rare.

我觉得那其实是电影里的一个场景。

I think that's actually a scene from a movie.

我确信是的。所以我猜我们所有人都想要的是吃牛排而不必杀人。如果你是肉食者，这就是目标吗？

I'm sure it is. So I'm guessing what we all want is to have the steak without having to do the murder. That's the goal here if you're a meat eater?

你知道，我认为我们都曾沉思过。你可以说我不是一个沉溺于沉思的人。你可以说你也不是，但我们所有人，包括你我，都曾在某个时刻纠结于一些负面记忆。那个能将过去完全抛在脑后、不留任何痕迹的杀手的例子，我认为这告诉我们，我们有这种沉思的能力并不完全是坏事。只是我们不想让它成为一个真正的问题。

You know, I think we have all ruminated. You could say I'm not a ruminator. You could say that you're not a ruminator, but we've all, both of us and everyone, has at some point dwelled on some negative memory. And the example of the assassin that can put the past totally in the rearview mirror without any residue that's lingering, I think that tells us that it's not entirely a bad thing that we have this capacity to ruminate. It's just really that we don't want it to become a real problem.

事实上，如果我们没有能力因为与配偶的争吵或本应说而未说的话而感到困扰，那么我们又会成为什么样的人呢？我们不想成为那个吃着牛排的杀手。

And in fact, if we didn't have the capacity to be bothered by an argument with our spouse or something that we should have said but didn't, then, like, what kind of human being would we be? We don't wanna be that assassin having the steak.

是啊。那么，安吉拉，你觉得你妹妹安妮特会勉强对这个答案感到满意吗？

Yeah. So, Angela, do you think that your sister, Annette, will be remotely satisfied by this answer?

还是她会反复琢磨我们对她这个绝妙问题处理得有多糟糕？

Or will she ruminate about the terrible job that we've done with this wonderful question of hers?

广告之后将带来今日对话的事实核查。现在为您呈现今日讨论的事实核查。在本集前半部分，史蒂文和安吉拉探讨了育儿假对性别平等的影响。史蒂文说他记得读过关于斯堪的纳维亚一项要求新手父亲休陪产假的政策。他坚称自己的记忆可能有误，但实际上他是正确的。

Coming up after the break, a fact check of today's conversation. And now here's a fact check of today's conversations. In the first half of the episode, Steven and Angela discuss the effect of parental leave on gender equity. Steven says he remembers reading about a Scandinavian policy that required new fathers to take paternity leave. He insists that his recollection must be incorrect, but he was actually right.

在瑞典，新手父母各自享有240天的假期。他们必须至少休90天，不论性别。剩余的150天可以根据要求转让给另一方。这个数字可能让美国人感到惊讶。在全球196个国家中，美国和巴布亚新几内亚是唯二没有联邦强制规定新手父母带薪休假的地方。

In Sweden, new parents are entitled to two forty days of leave each. They're required to take a minimum of ninety days, regardless of gender. The remaining one hundred and fifty days can be transferred to the other parent upon request. This number may be surprising for Americans. Out of the world's 196 countries, The United States and Papua New Guinea are the only places that don't have federally mandated paid time off for new parents.

尽管瑞典的政策相比无疑很进步，但这个国家仍未摆脱传统的性别期待。只有13%的瑞典夫妇平等分担育儿假，而《国际社会学与社会政策杂志》近期研究发现，头胎母亲平均使用约九个半月的带薪休假，而同组的父亲仅使用三个月。安吉拉随后提到美国许多研究型大学采用的性别中立终身教职时钟暂停政策。她表示不认为有研究证实该政策是否促进了平等。但2018年《美国经济评论》确实发表过关于该政策25年来可测量影响的全面报告。

While Sweden's policy is undeniably progressive in comparison, the country still hasn't escaped traditional gender expectations. Only 13% Swedish couples share leave equally, and a recent study in the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy found that mothers with a firstborn used approximately nine and a half months of paid leave, and fathers in the same group used just three months. Angela then references gender neutral tenure clock stopping policies adopted by many research intensive universities in The United States. She says that she doesn't think there are studies on whether this policy affected equality. But in 2018, the American Economic Review did publish a comprehensive report on the measurable effects of this policy over a twenty five year period.

研究发现，尽管该政策本意是创造公平竞争环境（至少在经济学系），结果却适得其反。理论上时钟暂停期间不应要求科研成果，但男性更可能利用这段时间进行研究——如果女性因生育导致的 productivity 损失更高。实施性别中立时钟暂停政策后，男性在首份工作中获得终身教职的概率反而提高17%，而女性则降低19%。之后，史蒂文和安吉拉讨论黑带之前是什么段位。

It found that while the policy may have attempted to level the playing field, at least in economics departments, it resulted in the reverse. In theory, no research is expected while the clock is stopped. But men are more able to use the time to work on research if productivity loss associated with having a child is higher for women. Men are subsequently 17% more likely to get tenure in their first job once an established gender neutral clock stopping policy is in place, while women are 19% less likely. Later, Stephen and Angela wonder what comes before a black belt.

安吉拉猜是棕色，史蒂文说是栗色。许多武术流派用腰带颜色表示习武者水平，通常白色代表初学者，黑色或红白相间代表大师。柔术、柔道、空手道等武术中，棕色是黑带前一级。并不存在栗色腰带。

Angela guesses brown and Stephen says maroon. Many forms of martial arts use belt colors to signify the wearer's skill level. Often, white signals a beginner and black or red and white indicates a master. Brown comes before black in jujitsu, judo, karate, and several other martial arts. There is no maroon belt.

最后，在关于反刍思维的讨论中，安吉拉说"我们都有内心独白"，这是错误的。并非所有人都有内心独白。专研该领域的心理学家拉塞尔·赫尔伯特估计，只有30%至50%的人类经常产生内心独白。有些人完全没有内心独白，可能以更抽象的方式体验思维。

Finally, during the discussion about rumination, Angela says that, quote, we all have inner chatter. This is incorrect. Not all people have inner monologues. Russell Hurlburt, a psychologist who specializes in this area, estimates that inner monologue is a frequent thing for only thirty to fifty percent of humans. Some people have absolutely no inner monologue and may instead experience their thoughts in more abstract ways.

事实核查到此结束。《没有愚蠢问题》由Freakonomics Radio和Stitcher联合制作。本期节目由我丽贝卡·李·道格拉斯制作。本节目隶属Freakonomics Radio网络，团队成员包括艾莉森·格雷格洛、格雷格·里彭、马克·麦克卢斯基、詹姆斯·福斯特和艾玛·特雷尔。

That's it for the fact check. No Stupid Questions is produced by Freakonomics Radio and Stitcher. This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network. Our staff includes Alison Greglow, Greg Rippon, Mark McCluskey, James Foster, and Emma Terrell.

主题曲是Talking Heads的《And She Was》。特别感谢大卫·伯恩和华纳查普尔音乐。如有问题想在未来节目中探讨，请发送邮件至nsqfreakonomics.com。若您想深入了解史蒂文或安吉拉提到的研究、专家或书籍，可访问freakonomics.com/nsq，我们整理了节目中所有重要参考资料。感谢收听。

Our theme song is And She Was by Talking Heads. Special thanks to David Byrne and Warner Chappell Music. If you have a question for a future episode, please email it to nsqfreakonomics dot com. And if you heard Steven or Angela reference a study, an expert, or a book that you'd like to learn more about, you can check out freakonomics.com/nsq where we link to all of the major references that you heard about here today. Thanks for listening.

作为一个经过多年治疗试图停止反刍思维的反刍者，听到这个问题让我觉得很有趣。

As a ruminator who went to therapy for years to figure out how to stop ruminating, it was interesting to listen to that question.

听到非反刍者谈论这个话题会让你嫉妒吗？

Does it make you jealous to hear non ruminators talk about it?

噢，当然。你会想，这怎么可能？人们为什么要这样做？那种无知真是福气。《魔鬼经济学》广播网络，揭示万物隐藏的一面。

Oh, yes. And you're like, how does this happen? Why do people do it? That ignorance is bliss. The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.

Stitcher。

Stitcher.