探索工作的意义

大家好，欢迎回到新一期的《不过度思考》。今天我们邀请到了一位非常特别的嘉宾，那就是我的朋友德里克·西弗斯，他正从新西兰打来电话。德里克，非常感谢你抽时间参加我们的播客。

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Not Overthinking. We are joined with a by a very special guest today, and that is my friend Derek Silvers, who is calling in from New Zealand. Derek, thank you so much for taking the time to hop on the pod.

谢谢。这就像一场干预会。我很享受这个。这是一场干预。

Thanks. It's like an intervention here. I'm enjoying this. It's an intervention.

是的。对于那些观看或收听播客但不熟悉德里克的听众，我大概是在2016年左右通过《蒂姆·费里斯秀》发现德里克的。那是我第一次接触你的内容。当时我记得你的背景故事是，你创建了一家名为CD Baby的公司，在PayPal和Stripe等支付方式出现之前帮助音乐人获得报酬。后来你以大约2000多万美元的价格卖掉了那家公司，然后基本上就做自己想做的事，在获得财务自由后不再那么拼命工作。

Yeah. So I'm so for the people for for people who are watching the pod or listening to the pod who are not familiar with Derek, I discovered Derek in I think it was something something so, like, 2016 when you were on the Tim Ferriss Show. And that was, Derek, when I when I when I first discovered your stuff. At the time, I remember your backstory being that, you know, you you'd built this company called CD Baby, which was sort of helping musicians get paid in the days before PayPal and Stripe and stuff. And then you ended up selling that company for, like, 20 something million, and then just sort of doing whatever you wanted to do and, like, not really working too hard beyond that financial freedom that that gave you.

但你也把所有钱都投入了音乐教育的慈善基金，所以并不是想过迪拜富二代那种生活。我记得蒂姆·费里斯曾形容你是他遇到困难时会打电话求助的人。我觉得这很有意思。从那次播客节目发现你之后，我 binge 了你所有的内容，包括博客文章、书籍等等。你的博客文章——不对。

But you also put all the money in into, like, a charitable fund for musical education, so it's not like you were trying to live the Dubai boy lifestyle. And you had you know, I think Tim Ferriss described you as, like, the guy he calls whenever he's struggling with something. I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And then so from discovering you in that podcast episode, I binged all of your stuff, all of your blog posts and your books and everything. And your blog post well, no.

是在书里。是在《Anything You Want》这本书里——顺便说一句，这本书非常棒。当时我正经历个人生活危机，是我的第一个创业项目带来的。其实我已经很久没想起这件事了，那个业务经过几年发展后进入平台期，然后开始下滑。我一直在进行灵魂拷问：我到底为什么要做这个？意义何在？

It was in the book. It was in the book Anything You Want, which is a fantastic book, by the way. I I around that time, I was going through a bit of a a bit of a my own personal life crisis with my first business where actually, I haven't I haven't thought about this in ages, where that business had sort of, like, grown over a few years and then was plateauing and was on the decline. And I was having this soul searching around, like, why am I really doing this? What's the point?

你知道吗？你在书中有句话写道：你享受这个过程吗？你的客户获得价值了吗？他们开心吗？你盈利了吗？

You know? And and you had a line in that book, was, are you enjoying yourself? Are your customers getting value? Are they happy? Are you profitable?

这还不够吗？这种'足够就好'的理念，这种新型创业的教训——这是书的标语——真的引起了我的共鸣。四年后我最终卖掉了那家公司，但正是你这种关注'足够'而非'更多'的创业方式真正与我产生了共鸣。然后继续这个故事，德里克，我们在2019年完全随机地在剑桥相遇，因为我在一个视频中引用了你的一本书。有人在Twitter上联系我们，然后我们在剑桥共进晚餐，因为你要在那里做演讲。

Isn't that enough? And this idea of, like, enough, you know, this sort of lessons for a new kind of entrepreneurship, which which was the tagline, that really, like, resonated with me. And I ended up selling that company, like, four years later, but it was it was that that way of you your way of approaching entrepreneurship, focusing on enough rather than more, that really vibed with me. And then, you know, just to continue the story, Derek, you and I met in Cambridge in 2019 completely randomly because I referenced one of your books in a video. And someone connected us on Twitter, and then we had dinner in Cambridge because you were giving a talk.

当时我是通过摄像头和他们交流的。之后我们基本上就一直通过互联网保持联系。然后你来了

And I was I was the webcam talk to them. And we sort of kept in touch over the Internet since. And you came

香港，大概两三周前，我们

to Hong Kong, like, two or three weeks ago, and we

又见面了。再次非常自然地相聚。

hung out. Again, very spontaneously.

是的。就在我经历那个小人生危机期间——我们在上一期《不过度思考》节目中讨论过的，当时我正试图弄清楚该怎么处理我的...你随机给我发了条消息说，嘿。你知道吗？所以我们见面了，我不知道我是不是想多了，但你看起来没有五年前我见到你时那么快乐。我当时就觉得，有意思。

Yeah. And in the midst of my little life crisis that we talked about in the previous episode of not overthinking, where I'm trying to figure out what to do with my You'd sent me a message kind of randomly being like, hey. You know? So we so we hung out, and I don't know if I'm overreaching here, but you seemed like you weren't as happy as when I saw you five years ago. And I was like, Interesting.

他察觉到了这一点。所以我想...然后我大概给你发了《不过度思考》的那期节目，我说，嘿。你知道，不想看的话完全不用看，随你。结果你给我回了一封邮件，给了很多建议，然后我问，嘿。我们要不要直接上线聊聊这个？

He picked up on that. So I think and then I sort of I sent you the episode of Not Overthinking, and I said, hey. You know, feel free to not watch this if you don't want to, whatever. And you get you sent me an email with a bunch of advice, and I asked, hey. Should we just hop on and and talk about this?

这是个非常冗长的开场，但我觉得这为...设定了背景。我只是觉得你是一个非常鼓舞人心、能激发灵感的人，也是一个伟大的思考者，尤其是在思考人生方向、金钱、创业等等如何融入整体生活这方面。而且你是真正实践过的人，你创立了那家公司，又某种程度上抽身而退。现在你似乎只是做任何你想做的事。所以这算是个简单的介绍。

This is a very long winded intro, but I think sets the the context for I just think you're a very inspiring and inspiring person and a great thinker as it relates to figuring out what to do with your life, like how money and entrepreneurship and stuff feeds into the whole thing. And you've, like, walked the walk, and you had built this company. You sort of stepped away from it. And now you just sort of seemingly do whatever you want. And so that's a bit of an intro.

我漏掉了什么吗，Derek？你还有什么要补充的吗？

Have I missed anything, Derek? Anything else you would add to that?

不。那才是重要的内容。Tamer，你知道这件事吗？就是关于我发给他的那封邮件？或者抱歉，是我发给他的语音留言？

No. That's the important stuff. Tamer, did you know about this? That, like about the email that I sent him? Or, sorry, the voice note I sent him?

不，不。我不知道这件事。我想Ali Ali只是提到过，哦，是的。但我当时在和Derek讨论这个，为什么我们不直接邀请他上播客或者

No. No. I did not know about that. I think Ali Ali just mentioned that oh, yeah. But I was talking to Derek about this, and why don't we just get him on the pod or

之类的？抱歉。是的。当时我们非常即兴。我当时在中国深圳。

something? Sorry. Yeah. It was so we it was super spontaneous. I was in Shenzhen, China.

是的，我知道香港就在边境那边，但我没想到我会过境。我以为我只是去中国大陆，只是去深圳。但后来我在深圳要见的那个人会在香港，而且好像过不了边境。所以最后一刻，我就想，好吧，我去香港吧。然后我突然想到，等等，Ali在香港。

And yes, I know that Hong Kong's right over the border, but I didn't think I was gonna cross the border. I thought I was just going to Mainland China, just going to Shenzhen. But then one person I was supposed to meet with in Shenzhen was gonna be in Hong Kong and just like couldn't get over the border. So like last minute, I was like, alright, I'll come down to Hong Kong. And I was like, wait a second, Ali's in Hong Kong.

我就直接给他打电话，我说，兄弟，你现在在家吗？他说，天啊。是的。我说，我两小时后到。然后就突然出现了。

And I just like called him, I like, dude, are you home right now? He said, oh my god. Yeah. I said, I'll be there in two hours. And just showed up spontaneously.

是的，我们就是边走边聊了大概三四个小时吧。挺愉快的。后来我离开时，觉得他好像失去了一些快乐。2019年我见到他时，他总是笑容满面，非常兴奋。而上个月我见到他时，就像我们在这里看到的，虽然还是个快乐的人，但似乎有点 subdued（内敛）。

And yeah, we just kind of walked and talked for, I don't know, three or four hours. And yeah, it was enjoyable. And then later as I left, I thought, he seems to have lost a little bit of his joy. When I met him in 2019, he was just like all smiles all the time and just so excited. And when I met him last month, you know, he was as we as we see here, kind of just kind of still a happy guy, but it just seemed a little subdued.

所以我开始有点担心他，因为我在乎你。这就是为什么我们

And so I I thought I started to get a little worried about him because I care about you. So that's why we're

这里。谢了，兄弟。我要直奔我的

here. Thanks, man. I'm going to tear to my

眼睛。太棒了。

eye. That's awesome.

总之是的。所以

Anyway yeah. So

嗯，实际上，也许一个好的起点是——我的意思是，德里克你听过我们之前的节目吗

Well, actually, may maybe a good starting point would be I mean, did Derek you listened to our previous episode

非常仔细地听了。你做了很多笔记。

Very carefully. You took lots of notes.

是的。太棒了。所以，我觉得作为一个起点，听听你对那场讨论的想法会很好，以及你认为这次后续讨论应该从哪里开始。

Yeah. Amazing. So, yeah, maybe I think as a starting point, it would be good get your thoughts on that discussion and, you know, what you think should be the starting point of this this follow-up discussion.

哦，天哪。我我我不知道我能不能确定起点。但是塔玛，我觉得很有趣的是，听起来你帮助他意识到钱其实不是目标。你好像一直在避开这个话题，又不断回到它，反复回到它。最终，这似乎形成了一个结论：这真的与钱无关。

Oh, god. I I I don't know if I can make the starting point. But the Tamar, I thought it was really interesting that you it sounded like you helped him realize that money isn't actually the object. Like, you kinda kept diverting from that and coming back to it and coming back to it and coming back to it. And eventually, it seemed that it felt like a conclusion that this really isn't about the money.

这样感觉对吗？

Does that feel right?

是的。对。我我我说'是'的时候有点犹豫，因为一方面我不认为这是关于钱的问题，另一方面虽然我想认为这不是关于钱的问题，但我内心深处有个声音在想，我我是不是在自欺欺人？就像，这是不是，你知道，关于钱的故事，关于社会地位的游戏——你知道，每个人都在玩的那些通常通常与金钱和工作相关的社会地位游戏？我是不是在欺骗自己，认为这不是关于钱的问题，还觉得自己很，嗯，不知道怎么说，开悟了之类的，而实际上金钱才是那种害怕失去一切的根源。

Yeah. Yes. I I I say yes with a bit of hesitation because I want as as much as I don't think it's about the money and as much as I'd like to think it's not about the money, I the there's a kernel of myself that's thinking, am am I bullshitting myself here? Like, is this, you know, the the story of money, the story of social you you know, the whole social status games that everyone plays often often related to money in in work? Am I am I fooling myself in thinking that it's not about money and thinking that I'm all, like, I don't know, enlightened and stuff as it relates to money when when actually money is the sort of the fear of losing it all.

关于金钱的稀缺感仍然，像是，在某个地方还存在。所以，就像，是的，与这些事情相关的金钱部分在我脑海深处仍然有点是个问题。

The scarcity around money is still, like, a a thing in there somewhere. So that's, like, yeah, what sort of the money piece as it relates to this stuff is is still a little bit of a thing in the back of my

心里。好的。Tamer，你怎么

mind. Okay. Tamer, what do you

我的意思是，我记得在那一集节目中你同意说你可以在内心找到满足，每年一百万英镑的利润就足够了，而且你不需要改变生活方式等等。所以，就像，我认为你同意，是的，你知道，我确实关心，像是，金钱和能够做所有这些随机的事情，但是，像是，业务的基本表现，不需要太多推动，不需要太多创新，就能让你达到那个水平。对吧？

I mean, I thought on episode you agreed that you you can find it in yourself to be happy with a million pounds a year in profit, and that you wouldn't have to change your lifestyle, etcetera, etcetera. So, like, I I think you agree that, yeah, I you know, I do care about, like, money and being able to do all this random stuff, but, like, baseline performance of the business with no with not much pushing, not much innovation would would get you there. Right?

是的。差不多是这样。所以，是的，在那个层面上，它它然后就变得不是关于钱的问题了。它变成了关于，像是，这个工作类别在我生活中的意义是什么，如果这说得通的话？还有，像是，背后的原因是什么？

Yeah. Pretty much. So, yeah, on that on that level, it's it it then becomes not about money. It becomes about, like, what's the what's the meaning behind this work category of my life, if that makes sense? And, like, what, like, what's the why behind it?

像是，重点是什么？我看了那一集之前的评论。天啊，天啊，有一些尖刻的评论，像是，我不知道你们有没有看到它们。

Like, what's the point? And I was looking through the comments on that on that previous episode. Man, man, there were some scathing comments being like, I didn't I don't I don't know if you guys saw them.

不，我没有。

No. I didn't.

他们真的有些人真的很刻薄。我觉得他们就是嫉妒，老兄。

They were really some people were really mean. I think they were just jealous, man.

不错。谢谢。

Nice. Thanks.

终极支持性评论。他们全都是嫉妒。

The ultimate supportive comment. They're all just jealous.

是的。

Yeah.

但是，你知道好吧。等一下。如果你仍然觉得钱的问题还在那里。我的意思是，我们在这里说，嘿，阿里，我们认为钱的问题已经解决了。你却觉得没有。

But, you know okay. Hold on. If you're still feeling like the money stuff is in there. I mean, here we are saying, hey, Ali, we think the money stuff is gone. You're like, it's not.

如果你说没有，那就是没有。你做过那件事吗？我不想，比如，问你存了多少钱。但你是否做过这样的事：如果你看到，如果你把你的储蓄投入到那些保守的ETF基金中，它平均每年能为你赚取8%。嗯。

If you say it's not, then it's not. Have you done that thing? I don't wanna, like, ask how much you've got saved up. But have you done that thing where if you see that if you took your savings and just stuck it into those conservative ETF funds, it will just earn you on average 8% per year. Mhmm.

那足够生活吗？

Is that enough to live on?

不，不太够。这就是为什么钱仍然是个问题。因为它还没有达到那种所谓的'官方自由数字'，即我真的不在乎钱。它只是达到了让我觉得'好吧'的程度。

No. Not quite. And that's where the money thing still comes in. Because it's not at that it's not that sort of, quote, official freedom number where I really don't care about money. It's at the level where I'm like, okay.

在一个纯粹靠投资生活的世界里，我可以过得相当不错，但这本质上不是我想要的生活。所以仍然存在某种'我想赚点钱'的成分。你知道，如果我能可靠地每年赚取一百万美元的利润，我就会觉得'好吧，这覆盖了所有基础，甚至还有富余'。所以达到那个门槛后，就完全与钱无关了。

I would live a pretty reasonable life in in a world where I would I would purely living off the investments, but it's not the life I would want to live, essentially. So so there is still some kind of I wanna make some money component. You know, if I were if I were able to, you know, reliably make a million a year in profit, I'd be like, okay. That that covers all of the ground and then and then plenty more. So that's kind of at that threshold, it becomes not at all about the money.

即使我每年只赚50万美元，那也足以轻松覆盖生活开支还有剩余。所以当我思考钱的问题时，我会想：如果我每年赚零收入，那足够生活吗？答案是否定的，现在还不行。

Even if I was earning 500 k a year and that one only only 500 k a year, that that would ease also easily cover lifestyle expenses and then some. So it's like, when I when I think about the money question, I think, okay. If I was earning zero per year, would that be enough to live off? And the answer is no. Not yet.

好吧。

Okay.

明白了。这确实有区别。因为我在邮件中提到的一些事情，对我来说，转变性的时刻是当我意识到：天啊，就凭我现在存下的钱，如果把它投到投资账户里，我这辈子就妥了。我再也不需要工作了。是的。

Alright. Makes a difference. Because some of the stuff I said in my email, for me, the the the transformative moment came when I realized that, oh my god, just on what I've got saved up right now, if I just stick that in an investment account, I'm set for life. I never need to work again. Yeah.

但那是基于我和我的'花生酱生活方式'——每年靠2万美元生活，我这样过了很多年。所以那是我感到自由的时刻。就像，好吧，我每年可以靠2万美元生活，所以我现在一切都安排好了。

But that was coming from me and my peanut butter lifestyle of living on, you know, 20,000 a year, which I did for many years. So that's the moment that I felt free. It's like, okay. I can live on 20,000 a year. So therefore, I'm all set now.

我再也不需要工作了。我的生意明天就可能倒闭烧毁，余生再也赚不到一分钱，但我依然完全没问题。那是一种很好的自由。但如果你还没达到那种状态，那么确实。

I never need to work again. My business could collapse and burn down tomorrow and never earn another dollar for the rest of my life, and I'm still all set. That was a that was a good freedom. But if you're not feeling there yet, then yeah.

是的。没错。那还不是我现在拥有的自由。我觉得如果我的投资能再多三到四倍，那大概就是我会觉得'好了，现在真的可以放松了'的那个数字。

Yes. Yeah. That's not that's not the freedom that I have yet. I think if I if I were to have three to four times as much in investments, then I would that's kind of the number where I'm like, okay. Now that's, like, really chill.

那就像是，生意可以垮掉。我这辈子再也卖不出一本书，等等等等。对我来说，那才是真正的财务自由，但我还没达到真正的财务自由。我仍然需要在某种程度上工作，我想这就是为什么金钱问题会与这些事情纠缠在一起。因为一方面，我想要一些我觉得被召唤去做的事情——召唤、使命、目标，所有这些工作范畴的东西？

That's like, the business could crumble. I could never sell another book in my life, etcetera, etcetera. That's, to me, like, true financial freedom, but I'm not at that I'm not at a point of true financial freedom. I still have to work to to some degree, which is, I think, why where the money question gets tied up into this stuff. Because on the one hand, I want something that I can I feel called called to do, calling, mission, purpose, all that all that kind of stuff in the in the work category?

另一方面我也想要赚些钱，而且很可能确实会赚到一些钱。但确实，我其实认为我们可以把金钱问题放在一边——过去一周我一直在思考这个问题。无论我决定在生活的工作范畴做什么，我可能还是会每隔几年写书，因为很有趣；偶尔也会制作YouTube视频。通过偶尔写书和做视频，这种经济引擎将能支撑我的生活方式。

And I also wanted to make some money and probably will make some money. But it's yeah. Still still I think actually do think we we can we can put aside the question of money in the in the sense that I've I've I've been thinking about it over the last week. And whatever I decide to do in the work category of my life, I'll probably still write books every couple of years because it's fun, and I'll probably still make YouTube videos once in a while. And between books and YouTube videos once in a while, it will that sort of economic engine will fund my lifestyle.

问题是另外那个范畴的事情——就是感觉缺失的，或者我仍在试图弄明白的是：除了继续制作YouTube视频之外，还有什么事情能让我感到有目的、有意义，可能还具有挑战性，能让我获得成长。是的。

It's this other category of things where it's yeah. The the the thing that feels missing other or that that I'm still trying to figure out is what is the thing that I'm doing that feels purposeful and meaningful beyond and maybe feels challenging, maybe feels like I can grow beyond just keep making YouTube videos. Or Yeah. Yeah.

我只是

I just

你知道，

you know,

我每隔几年想写书的时候就写一本，这基本上就是我想做的事。只是感觉好像还有还有还有还有还有别的东西，不知道这样说是否说得通。

I write a book every few years when I feel like it, which is kind of like what I'm gonna do anyway. It's just still feels like there's there's there's there's there's something else, if that makes sense.

所以我喜欢这个想法：二十年后的阿里会回头看，发现30岁的现在的自己才刚刚起步，你知道吗？有时候当你被YouTube的成功包围时，可能会觉得我已经成功了。我就是那个人。所有人都这么开心。而想到一个更大的世界图景，现在的你其实非常渺小，那会是什么样子？这很有趣。

So I like this idea that future Ali in twenty years will look back and see your current self at age 30 as like just barely getting started, you know. Sometimes when you're surrounded by YouTube success, it can feel like I've arrived. I'm the man. All these people are so happy. And it's interesting to think of a a bigger picture world where current you is actually very small and what would that be?

可能是智力上的，财务上的。也可能是，我不知道，精神上或其他某种方式，现在的你才刚刚起步。你曾经这样想过吗？

It could be intellectually, financial. It could be, I don't know, spiritually or some some way where the current you is just barely getting started. Do you ever think in those terms?

哦，这个想法很好。是的。我一直在做一些日记提示的问题，关于弄清楚人生该做什么的问题。其中一个我挺喜欢的是：你可以想象二十年后的情景，比如，假设我在二十年后做TED演讲。那么，朝着什么酷的事情努力，才能在二十年后就此做TED演讲呢？

Oh, that's nice. Yeah. One of the questions I've been sort of I've been doing a bunch of journaling prompts in terms of, like, all of these figure out what to do with your life questions. One of the ones that I've I I quite like is you can exactly this sort of imagine imagining twenty years from now and imagining, like, okay. Let's say I'm giving a TED talk twenty years from Like, what would be a cool thing to be working towards such that I could give a TED talk about it twenty years from now?

或者类似的问题，比如：嘿，你知道，如果我知道我不会失败，在接下来的二十年里我想做什么？有一个想法出现了，这是自从我们上一期节目以来第一次出现，就是我一直在思考我关心的问题领域是什么。就像，如果我不考虑我职业生涯的标签是什么，而是思考我想解决什么问题

Or things like, hey. You know, if I knew if I knew I couldn't fail, what would I wanna work on in the next twenty years? One thing that's come up, which hasn't really come up before since since the last last episode we did, is I've been thinking a lot about what are the problem areas that I care about. Like, if if I wasn't thinking what's the what's the label on the career that I'm doing, and instead thinking what is the what is a problem that I would like to solve

是的。有两件事

Yeah. There are two things that

出现了。一个是仍然是关于帮助人们充分利用时间的事情，这有点接近生产力和个人发展，比如生产力、个人成长。我认为我在这些事情中关心的核心是：嘿，对每个人，对我们所有人来说，时间是我们最宝贵且不可再生的资源。我们总能赚钱。

come up. One is one is still this thing around, like, helping people make the most of their time, which sort of is productivity adjacent and personal like, productivity, personal development. I think the kernel of what I care about in those things is that, hey. For everyone, for all of us, time is our most valuable nonrenewable resource. We can always make money.

我们永远无法创造更多时间等等。我从接触各种理念中获益匪浅，包括你的内容德里克，部分来自蒂姆·费里斯的内容，部分来自我多年来消费的所有生产力和个人发展内容。这些理念让我达到了这样的境界：除了像现在这样摇摆不定、试图弄清楚下一步行动的片刻之外，我对自己如何度过时间大体上非常满意。而我交谈过的大多数人并不处于这种状态——他们对自己如何度过时间以及追求的目标并不满意。因此这里存在某种帮助人们充分利用时间的东西。

We can never make more time, etcetera. And I have had I've benefited enormously from coming across ideas, from your stuff, Derek, partly from Tim Ferriss' stuff, partly from all the productivity and personal development stuff I've consumed over the years. Ideas that have, I feel, have gotten me to the point where, except in moments like this where I'm sort of wobbling and trying to figure figure out the next move, I'm broadly very happy with how I spend my time. And most people I speak to are not in that camp where they are very happy with how they spend their time and what they're working towards. And so there's something some kind of thing there around helping people make make the most of their time.

这就像是第一要务。然后第二要务是关于教育方面的，我讨厌使用'民主化'这个词，但确实是关于让世界一流教育触手可及。我设想在一个拥有全世界所有时间和金钱的世界里，我很想建立某种——你知道的——可汗学院遇见Brilliant遇见Mindvalley遇见Masterclass的混合体，某种在线学校，让人们通过实践来学习，我们可以围绕这个构建一个技术平台，为世界上任何有互联网连接的人提供免费教育。就像你可以通过这些内置代码编辑器的工具（Codecademy和CodeSchool）学习编程并完成项目，那么对于编程以外的领域会是什么样子？对于其他专业技能，比如视频编辑、文案写作、营销或销售等任何产品领域会是什么样子？这是我和一位朋友一直在讨论想要构建类似东西的想法。

It's, like, thing number one. And then thing number two is something around education in terms of and I hate to use the word democratizing, but democratizing access to world class education. And I imagine in a world where I had all the time and money in the world, I would love to build some sort of you know, Khan Academy meets Brilliant meets Mindvalley meets, like, Masterclass, some sort of online school thing where people learn by doing stuff, and we can sort of build a tech platform around this where it's sort of free education for anyone in the world with an inter Internet connection. And in the same way that, like, you can learn to code with all of these tool Codecademy and CodeSchool that has a built in code editor that lets you do the projects, what would that look like but for things other than coding? What would it look like for, like, other professional skills, video editing or copywriting or marketing or sales or any, like, product or, you know, that there's something an idea I've I've been discussing with a friend of mine around building something like that.

再次强调，这与其说是关于平台，不如说是关于我们如何致力于帮助世界上任何人无需上大学就能获得世界一流教育。这些是过去一周我自我反省、试图弄清楚我真正关心为生活的'工作'类别贡献什么时浮现的两个问题领域。

Again, it's it's it's less about the platform and more about, like, how can we work on something that helps anyone in the world have access to a world class education without having to go to a university? The those are, like, two kind of problem areas that have have emerged over the last week of me kind of soul searching and trying to figure out, like, what do I actually care about contributing to words in the work category of life?

我喜欢这个，因为听起来你现在做的一切都是为了获得做那件事的入场券。我想到克里斯·安德森的例子，既然你提到了TED。据我所知，克里斯·安德森作为TED的所有者，之前在杂志领域已经非常成功。我认为他经营或拥有过几本杂志，像是某种创业类小型商业杂志。

I like this because it sounds then like everything you're doing now is the thing that gets you the entry ticket into doing that. And I'm thinking of the example of Chris Anderson since you mentioned Ted. Chris Anderson, is the owner as far as I know of Ted, was already a huge success in magazines. I think he ran or owned a couple magazines. It was like some kind of like entrepreneur small business magazine.

我不太确定，我只是凭记忆说的，别人可以查证具体事实。但我相信他当时以巨额价格卖掉了杂志，感觉取得了巨大成功，同时也在思考接下来该做什么。那时TED大会还只是加州一个私人的年度活动，没有电视转播。

I don't know. Somebody I'm just doing this off the top of my head. Somebody else can find the actual facts. But I believe that it's like he sold the magazine for a ton of money, felt like a huge success, and was also feeling this feeling of what's next. And at the time, the TED conference was just a private little once a year event in California that was not televised.

而他有一个愿景：等等，我觉得也许可以把这个会议做得更大更大。所以他之前经营和出售杂志的巨大成功，现在看来只是他做更大事情的入场券。

And he had this vision like, hold on. I think I can maybe take this conference and grow it much, much, much bigger. And so it's like his what previously had seemed like a giant success in running and selling the magazines, Now it's just like his entry ticket to do the much bigger thing.

是的，这个比喻很好。我好奇的是，德里克，当你卖掉CD Baby之后是什么感觉？就像，好吧，你还是得做点什么作为工作。

Yeah. That's nice. What I'm curious. What was that like for you, Derek, once you once you sold CD Baby and you were like, okay. Like, you still gotta do something for work.

对吧？就像，你不是那种整天无所事事、躺在沙滩上混日子的人。你是怎么考虑你接下来想做什么的？或者你是否曾以这种方式思考过？

Right? Like, you don't you're not just sort of screwing around and lying on a beach all the time. How how did how did you think about what you wanted your next act to be, or were you even thinking of it in that way?

是的。好吧。所以，Tamer，我给Ali发了封邮件，提到了某件事，这才有了这次通话。对于第一次听我说话的人来说，接下来我要说的有点尴尬。所以我在这里非常坦诚和诚实。

Yeah. Okay. So, Tamer, I sent Ali this email that said this thing that led to this phone call. So this is this is anybody listening to me for the first time, what I'm about to say next is a little embarrassing. So I'm being very vulnerable and honest here.

事情是这样的。我卖掉了公司，赚了一大笔钱，但钱不是重点。真正的重点在于，当时我在音乐行业备受宠爱。CD Baby 风靡一时，被誉为独立音乐的革命，改变了音乐的买卖方式，而我作为音乐商业人士也备受赞誉。但后来我感觉自己达到了一个瓶颈期。

So it went like this. I sold my company for a bunch of money, but the money was not the point. The real point was I was a darling in the music industry at the time. CD Baby was toast to the town and was heralded as like an indie music revolution that changed the way music is bought and sold and I was very celebrated as this music business guy. But then I just hit this point where I was feeling plateaued.

当时我能想到的最贴切的比喻是，感觉就像十年来，我像Diego Rivera那样的艺术家，在画一幅巨大的壁画，你知道，里面有成千上万的角色。十年来我一直在画这幅画，到了某个时刻，感觉完成了。我只是退后一步，看着自己创作的这幅壁画，觉得，嗯，就这样了。我不想再添加任何东西。我感觉已经做完了。

The the best metaphor I had at the time is it felt like for ten years I was one of those artists like Diego Rivera that was painting this big giant mural, you know, with like a thousand characters. And for ten years I was painting this thing and at a certain point, it felt done. And I just kind of stepped back and looked at this mural I had made and felt like, yeah, that's it. There's nothing else I want to add. I was feeling done with it.

所以这才是我卖掉公司的真正原因。不是为了钱。事实上，我忘了卖掉是一个选项。我差点就直接关闭公司了。真的就是登录网络服务器，输入halt，就像跟大家说再见一样。

So that's the real reason I sold the company. It wasn't for the money. In fact, I I forgot that selling was an option. I almost just shut down the company. Literally just logged into the web server and typed halt like goodbye everybody.

那很有趣。然后一个朋友对我说，你在干什么？别犯傻。卖掉它。我才反应过来，哦，对。

It was fun. And then a friend of mine said, what are you doing? Don't be an idiot. Sell it. I went, oh, right.

对。卖掉它。忘了。我卖掉了公司，但真正的重点是我觉得我最好的作品都已经成为过去。就像我35岁了，而50岁时我的墓碑上会写着：这里长眠着Derek Sivers，他做了CD Baby，之后一事无成。

Right. Sell it. Forgot. I sold the company, but the real point is that I felt like all my best stuff is now behind me. Like I'm 35 years old and in 50 my gravestone is gonna say here lies Derek Sivers who did CD Baby nothing since.

你知道吗，那确实就是我的感受，真的非常令人沮丧，我感觉很迷茫，不知道接下来该怎么办。我的一个朋友说，老兄，你得承认，你已经中了彩票。你以一种百万分之一甚至亿分之一的机会获得了成功。你不会再有第二次了。就是这样。

You know, that's really what it felt like and that was really depressing as hell and I just felt lost like, well what next? And a friend of mine said, dude you got to admit, you won the lottery already. Like you got successful in a way that one out of a million or one out of a 100,000,000 will ever do. You're not gonna do it twice. That was it.

你只需要接受一个事实，那就是你最大的成功已经过去了，仅此而已。你必须与这个事实和解。放松一点。去，你知道，骑骑马，喝喝红酒。去放松一下。

You just need to come to terms with the fact that your best success is behind you and that's that. You just gotta make peace with that. Just relax. Go, you know, ride horses, drink wine. Go relax a bit.

你已经辛苦工作了十年。放松一下吧。

You've been working hard for ten years. Relax.

然后我说，我不想要那样。我不是

And I went, I don't want that. I'm not

一个闲适的人。所以我花了大约一年半的时间感到非常迷茫。我读了很多书，得到了一些小小的启发。我在你和Tamer的最后一次对话中听到的是，我最喜欢的时刻是当你说，嗯，我的意思是，我喜欢教育。我想我可以在这方面多做点事情。

a leisure guy. So I spent about a year and a half feeling really lost. And I'd read a lot of books and I'd get little bits of inspiration. This is what I heard in your last conversation with Tamer is that my favorite moment is when you said, well, I mean, I like education. I guess I could do more of that.

然后你说，我当时就想，那可不是内心燃烧着火焰的样子。我有很多那样的时刻，看最后一集时真的感到一种亲切和共鸣，认出了你那种‘我可以做这个，可以做那个’的感觉。我在那种状态中度过了一年半，直到有一天，这部分有点尴尬，好吧？我当时在读一本叫《权力的48条法则》的书，里面谈到了名声和关注。书中说，我想是历史上的本杰明·迪斯雷利之类的人，总是会想办法把自己置于聚光灯下。

And you went, I was like, that's not the face of the fire within. And I had lots of those moments that I was really kind of sweet and kindredy to watch that last episode and recognize that feeling you're feeling of like, I could do this, could do that. And I spent a year and a half in that mode until one day, and this is the slightly embarrassing part, okay? I was reading the book called The 48 Laws of Power, and it talked about fame and attention. And he said, I think it was Benjamin Disraeli or something historically, would always find a way to put himself into the middle of the spotlight.

无论关注在哪里，他都会把自己放在那里。这就是他成名的原因，就是不断地把自己置于聚光灯下。而在那一刻，我却想消失。我觉得我有太多的责任。我甚至非常认真地考虑过合法地改名，然后从世界上消失。

Wherever the attention was, he would put himself there. And that's what gave him his claim to fame, which is constantly putting himself in the spotlight. And in that moment, I was in the mood to disappear. I felt like I had too much responsibility. I was really strongly considering legally changing my name and like disappearing from the world.

什么，抱歉，什么责任之类的？你是怎么卖掉公司然后逍遥自在的？

What, sorry, what the responsibility and stuff? How did you just like sold your business and were chilling?

嗯，我确实卖掉了公司，但给我个人带来了巨大创伤，因为公司最后一年，我85名曾经是朋友的员工突然——我消失了几个月，我不在的时候公司文化变了，他们都想让我走跳板，就像一场哗变。突然间我所有的好朋友都反对我，试图把我赶出自己创立的公司。事情变得如此恶劣，这就是为什么我想消失。我想

Well, I had sold my business, but at great personal trauma to myself because the final year of the company was like my 85 employees who used to be my friends suddenly in I disappeared for a few months and in my absence the culture of the company switched so that they were all trying to make me walk the plank like a mutiny. And it was like suddenly all my best friends were suddenly against me and trying to get me kicked out of my own company. And it just turned so nasty that that's why I wanted to disappear. I wanted to

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

改名换姓，消失到欧洲某个地方，就当个开源程序员，低调度过余生。我甚至读了三本关于如何合法消失的书。我非常认真地对待这件事，差点就付诸行动了。然后在飞往纽约的飞机上，我读到了《权力的48条法则》中关于本杰明·迪斯雷利和名声的一小段内容。

Change my name, disappear off into Europe somewhere, just be an open source programmer, laying low for the rest of my life. I even read three different books on how to, like, legally disappear. I took it very seriously. I was about to do it. And then sitting on an airplane on the way to New York City, I read this little bit about Benjamin Disraeli in The 48 Laws of Power about fame.

突然间我意识到，好吧，尴尬的部分来了。我有点喜欢出名。一点点。我不想当电影明星，不想那么出名，但有一点名声真的很不错。

Suddenly And I realized, okay, here's the embarrassing part. I kinda like being famous. A little bit. I don't wanna be a movie star. I don't wanna be that famous, but a little bit is really nice.

我不好意思承认这一点，但这是实话。我想，我不想再失去这些了。我真的很喜欢因为有好名声，几乎可以打电话给任何人说'嘿，见个面吧'，而他们会说'好啊，没问题'。

And I was embarrassed to admit that, but it was honest. And I thought, I don't want none of that anymore. I really like the fact that because I've got a good reputation, I can call up almost anyone and say, hey, let's meet. And they'll go, well, cool. Yeah.

'当然，见面吧'。这真的很棒。但如果我突然改名变成无名小卒，我只能说'你好，我是比利时的一个开源程序员'。

Sure. Let's meet. That's really nice. But if suddenly I changed my name and I'm just nobody, I'm like, hi. I'm an open source programmer in Belgium.

想见面吗？他们可能会说，不。你谁啊？我当时想，天哪，那也太惨了。所以那一刻，我觉得或许我应该拥抱这件事，而不是逃避它。

Wanna meet? They'd be like, no. Who the hell are you? I was like, god, that would be really sad. So, in that moment, I thought, maybe I should lean into this thing instead of run away from it.

然后突然，阿里，这就是我邮件里跟你提过的事。它正好和我当时的想法重合了——我现在的所有偶像都是那些作家、演讲者、思想家、作家类型的人。比如马尔科姆·格拉德威尔、赛斯·高汀，不知道你认不认识，还有萨姆·哈里斯、奥利弗·伯克曼。这些人现在是我的偶像。我当时就想，如果我能成为他们中的一员呢？

And then suddenly, Ali, this is the thing that I emailed you about. It coincided with thinking, well, all of my heroes currently are these writer, speaker, thinker, author type people. People like Malcolm Gladwell, Seth Godin, I don't know, Sam Harris, Oliver Berkman. These are my heroes right now. I was like, what if I could be one of them?

哇。对我来说，这感觉就像我之前描述的“入场券心态”，就像创办并卖掉一家小公司，比如CD Baby，那只是我的入场券，让我进入这个游戏，让人们愿意听我说话。但现在我必须说些他妈真正有趣的东西，才能保持或赢得他们的注意力。我不能光说，哦，听我说，因为我过去做过这件事。不行。

Woah. That to me felt like the that's like the entry ticket mindset I was describing, where it's like starting and selling a little company like CD Baby, that's just my entry ticket that like gets me in the game where people will listen if I have something to say. Now I have to say something really fucking interesting in order to keep their attention or earn their attention. I can't just say, oh, listen to me because I did this thing in the past. No.

我必须字字珠玑，给他们提供一些东西，一种新的思维方式。然后突然，我坐在飞机座位上，我的姿态大概保持了一年半都是这样，但突然想到这个主意时，就像，哦靠。天哪。是的。如果我要做这个，好吧。

I have to, with every word, have something to offer them, a new way of thinking. And it's like suddenly, I was sitting in this airplane seat and like my posture for say a year and a half had been this, like, and suddenly I thought this idea was like, oh shit. Oh my god. Yes. And if I were do this, okay.

我该怎么做？我怎么才能让TED大会邀请我去演讲，因为他们对我所拥有的东西足够印象深刻？好吧。我可以做到。我必须让自己出名。

How would I do this? How can I get the TED conference ference to invite me to speak because they're impressed enough with what I've got? Okay. I could do this. I could have to make a name for myself.

我得开始定期写博客。我得开始传播这些想法。我必须更频繁地让自己成为焦点。我当时想，哦。这是一年半以来我第一次想到让我兴奋的事情，它真的让我从椅子上弹起来，想要采取行动。

I'd have to start blogging regularly. I'd have to start spreading this out. I have to make get myself into the spotlight more often. I was like, oh. It was the first exciting thing I had thought of for a year and a half where it really made me like bolt up in my chair and want to take action.

而对我来说，一个好目标的定义不是听起来让别人觉得厉害。一个好目标只能是让你在当下就采取行动的那个。如果一个想法冒出来，你不是说，嗯，那挺好的。而是说，哦，是的。天哪。

And that to me is the definition of a good goal is not one that sounds impressive to other people. A good goal is only one that makes you take action in the current moment. If an idea comes to mind and you don't say, Yeah, that'd be nice. But you say, oh, yes. Oh my god.

现在，我要做的就是让这件事发生。对我来说这是一个好目标。在一年半的伪抑郁状态中漂泊后，我似乎找到了让我采取行动的那个东西。

Right now, here's what I'm gonna do to make this happen. That to me is a good goal. And it seems like after a year and a half of drifting in pseudo depression, I found that thing that made me take action.

好的。这非常非常有趣。我想知道你对这个有什么反思，因为你刚刚也卖掉了你的公司。这种感觉和你现在的状态有共鸣吗？

Okay. That is very, very interesting. I want I I want I wonder what your reflections are on that because you've just sold your company as well. Does any of that vibe with how you're feeling?

说实话，我觉得我的处境不太一样，因为我还要在收购方那里工作几年。所以对我来说，这感觉不像是在凝视深渊。更像是：好吧，很酷，你懂吧？

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite in the same position because I'm I'm still gonna be, you know, working at the acquirer for a few years. And so it to me, it doesn't feel like I'm staring into the void. It feels like, okay. Cool. You know?

我们达到了一个好的位置。我们会继续工作几年。然后，等我充好电后，再考虑下一步行动之类的。感觉就像是，是的，我的道路在未来几年里基本上很清晰。

We got to a good place. We're gonna carry on for a few years. And then, you know, once I'm recharged, then I'll, like, figure out the next move or something. It feel it feels like yeah. The my my, you know, my my path is pretty clear, I think, for the next couple of years, basically.

所以我其实不需要面对这类问题。但是，阿里，当你谈论教育这件事时，听起来你并不像Derek描述的那样兴奋——那种'我现在就要开始做这件事'的感觉。显然你喜欢教育，也认为这是值得做的好事等等。

So I I don't really have face these kinds of these kinds of questions. But, yeah, I think, Ali, with the whole education thing, when you talk about it, it just doesn't feel like you're you're excited in the way that Derek is talking about where you're like, oh, yeah. Like, how do I get started on this thing? Like, right now. It doesn't like, when you talk about liking education or whatever or this kind of stuff, like, obviously, you do like education and you it's a you know, you do think it's a good thing to work on, etcetera, etcetera.

你只是没有对此充满激情。Derek，当你谈到在飞机上有了这个想法时坐直身子、想要开始工作的感觉时——我最近其实也有这种体验。我一直在做一个假期项目readablepdf.com（节目开始前跟你们提过）。过去几天我一直在做这个，正是你描述的那种'太棒了'的感觉。

You just don't feel fired up about it. Derek, when you were talking about this feeling of being on the plane and having the idea and, like, you know, sitting sitting up and, like, being you know, wanting to get to work. I recently had this actually, I had a I've I've been working on a holiday project, which I just told I told you guys about before before we started the podcast, readablepdf.com, if anyone wants to check it out. But, like, I think the and I was just kinda working on this a bunch over the last few days. And it is so it was it was that kind of feeling that you described, Derek, where it's like, oh, amazing.

是的。让我们开始吧！这种感觉令人陶醉。我就像因为这个东西兴奋了四天左右。

Yeah. Let's yeah. How do I get started? It's intoxicating. It's like it's like such a, you know I was, like, high for, like, four days or something because of this thing.

你知道吗？而且，你知道，很明显，就像，整个你知道的，我...我...那有点让我感到压力，但事情就是那么简单。你不会总是有那种感觉。但我觉得，阿里，当你谈论教育或其他什么的时候，你并没有，像那样，真正兴奋起来。但是

You know? And, you know, obviously, like, the whole you know, I'm I'm that's weighing a little bit, and it's that easy. You're not always gonna feel like that. But I don't feel like, Ali, when you talk about education or whatever, you're not, like, lighting up in that way. But

很明显，你觉得也许需要一个具体的，比如，你的可读PDF是一个非常具体的想法，而不是'我想做点关于PDF的事情'。知道吗？是的。也许，就像，也许Ollie只是缺少具体的实施方案。

obviously Do you think maybe it needs a specific like, your readable PDF was a very specific idea instead of, I wanna do something around PDFs. Know? Yeah. Maybe it was, like, maybe Ollie's just missing the specific implementation.

是的。说得好。是的。

Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah.

是的。是的。那就是...所以当我和我的联合创始人帕布罗，在我们的软件相关事情上讨论这个时，我们有点...有点围绕这个想法探讨，就像，你知道，如果我们做这种教育平台类的东西会是什么样子？当我们上周吃早餐时谈论这个，那感觉就像，哦，好吧。这里有些东西感觉比我一段时间以来对任何与工作相关的事情都更令人兴奋。

Yeah. Yeah. That's the so when I was having a conversation with with my my cofounder on our sort of software stuff, Pablo, about this, We were sort of and sort of playing around this idea of, like, you know, what would it look like if we made this sort of education platform thing? When we were talking about that a few like, I think it was, like, last week over breakfast, that felt like I was like, oh, okay. There's there's something here that feels more exciting than a feeling I felt in a while around, like, anything to do with work.

但我想我一直在...我觉得过去七天我一直在理性分析它，试图弄清楚，这是不是一回事？是不是不是一回事？等等，等等。所以，就像，我有点觉得是的。就是这么回事。

But I guess I've been I feel like I've been intellectualizing it for the last, like, seven days to try and figure out, is this this a thing? Is it not a thing? Etcetera, etcetera. And so, like, I kinda feel like yeah. That's the thing.

我不...我不...我不确定该在多大程度上依赖最初的那种兴奋感。因为正如我们讨论过的，最初的兴奋感不一定能持续。就像，我想开一个YouTube频道的欲望并不是基于一种'天啊，我等不及要做这个了'的感觉。它更像是，哦，哦，我觉得这里有些有趣的东西。

I'm not I'm not I'm not sure how much to index on that original feeling of excitement. Because as we talked about, the original feeling of excitement doesn't necessarily last. Like, my desire to start a YouTube channel wasn't really based on, a, oh my god. I can't wait to do this. It was like, oh, oh, I think there's something interesting here.

这可能是个主意。让我们试试看，让我们试探一下水深，看看会发生什么，而不是'我靠，我必须做这个'。这些年来，我很少做过让我觉得'我的天，我必须做这件事'的事情。

This could be a idea. Let's try it out and let's sort of test the waters and kind of and kinda see what happens rather than, holy shit. I have to do this. There's been very little I've done over the years that's been like, my god. I have to do this thing.

更像是，嗯，你知道，这里有些有趣的东西值得探索。

It's been more like, oh, you know, there's there's something interesting to explore here.

让我们开始吧。

Let's Right.

开始往前走，希望道路会自然显现的那种感觉。

Start walking the way and hope that the way appears kind kind of thing.

好的。你觉得等待如何？或者是否已经有某种感觉，表明这就是值得迈出一步的方向？

Okay. What do you think of wait. Or does something already feel like this is the thing that's worth stepping towards?

是的。感觉值得迈出一步的方向是，比如，深入软件领域。简单介绍一下背景，如果有人不熟悉的话，大约一年前，九个月前，我和朋友Pablo共同创立了一个叫VoicePal的应用，这是一个AI写作应用。你四处走动，对着它说话，它会问你后续问题等等。这真的很酷，因为我每天散步时都会用它，因为现在这意味着我可以在不用坐在键盘前的情况下写作，这挺有趣的。

Yeah. The thing that feels worth stepping towards is, like, leaning into the software stuff. So just for context, if anyone's anyone's not familiar, the about a year ago, nine months ago, me and my friend Pablo cofounded this app called VoicePal, which is like a AI writing app. You walk around, you talk into it, and it asks you follow-up questions and stuff. And that's been really cool, because I use it every day when I go on my walks because now it takes me I mean, it means I can write without having to be at the keyboard, which is kind of fun.

每当我问自己这类问题时，比如，你知道，如果我有世界上所有的时间和金钱，我会做什么？总是浮现的一件事是，是的，我会继续按照自己的节奏写书和偶尔制作视频。但另一件浮现的事是，构建人们每天使用的工具，让数百万人真正改善他们的生活，那会非常酷。所以VoicePal就像是那个想法的一个小版本，有点像概念验证。既然这个概念已经被验证了，我们正在开发其他几个应用。

And whenever I ask myself these sorts of questions, like, you know, if I had all the money and time in the world, what would I do? A thing that a thing that always comes up is, yeah, I continue to write books and make make videos every now and then on my own terms. But another thing that comes up is it would be really cool to build tools that people use that, you know, millions of people use every day to actually improve their lives. And so VoicePal was like a small version of that, like a bit of a proof of concept. And now that that concept's been prove proven, we're working on a few other apps.

我们正在构建一些东西，比如我妻子Izzy也在参与的一个项目，这是一个类似于责任追踪的应用，帮助你实际采取行动实现目标。我们还在开发一个提供一系列日记提示、帮助你找出核心价值观的工具。开始设计这些感觉令人兴奋。我们还有一个辅助项目，是关于帮助人们专注的，它可以追踪你的专注时间，屏蔽应用，并帮助你跟踪花在那些据说对你重要的事情上的时间。在通过VoicePal涉足并验证概念后，这个消费级生产力科技创始人的领域感觉是一个相当不错的方向，值得进一步深入。

We're, like, building something where Izzy, my wife, is working on this one as well, which is a sort of, like, accountability app that helps you actually take action towards your goals. We're working on this thing that helps you sort of gives you a bunch of journaling prompts and helps you figure out your core values. That feels exciting to start designing. We're working on this other sort of bit of a side project that's around helping people focus and sort of you track your focus hours, and it sort of like it blocks apps and helps you track how much time you're spending focusing on things that allegedly matter to you. This world of kind of consumer productivity tech founder thing feels like a pretty good direction to step more into, having kind of dipped our toes into the water with VoicePal, proven the concept.

就像，这似乎是一个值得努力的很酷的事情。而这个教育平台的部分，它正朝着这个方向，就像是那个特定方向上的一个更大愿景，如果这说得通的话。

Like, that seems like it would be a a cool thing to work towards. And then sort of this educational platform piece, it it's it's sort of in that direction, just like a bigger vision in that particular direction, if that makes sense.

我认为小步前进的方式相当好，因为正如德里克所说，很难对非常抽象的事情超级兴奋。但我认为，在小事情上捣鼓其实是弄清楚大事情到底是什么的好方法。就像很多人谈论的探索与利用权衡，你先探索一段时间，然后决定做什么，然后进行利用之类的。但实际上，我认为最好的探索方式其实就是开始利用。开始做一些真正的小型，你知道，利用其实就是最好的探索形式，我认为。

I think the small step thing is is quite good because I think it's hard as Derek said, it's it's hard to get, like, super fired up about something very abstract. But I think, like, tinkering around on small stuff is is actually, like, a really good way of figuring out what the big thing even is. Like, think a lot a lot of people talk about this, like, explore exploit trade off where you're like, explore for a bit, and then you decide what to do, and then you're, like, exploit or something. But, actually, I think the the best way to explore the best way to explore is actually to start exploiting. Like, start start, like, doing real kind of small you know, ex exploit is the best is is the best form of exploring, I think.

而且我认为这基本上就是你会通过那些小型项目得到的东西。

And I think that's kinda what you're gonna get with the small small projects like stuff.

我喜欢这个想法。我认为它对他人来说也更具具体价值，而且我知道这真的很能驱动你。既然你已经把YouTube视频做得这么好，是否感觉YouTube有点像是已经去过、做过、征服过了？

I like it. I think it's also more of a concrete value to others, and I know that really drives you. Whereas you've done YouTube videos so well that it feels does it feel does it does YouTube feel a bit like been there, done that, conquered to you?

YouTube感觉像是我进入了一个舒适愉快的节奏，我觉得这样很好，我有点在顺其自然。如果YouTube还有另一个高峰要攀登或者新的挑战，那并不是我特别想要攀登的高峰。对吧。因为下一个挑战会是，什么？让订阅数上涨，做更 spectacular 的事情，做挑战，从头开始创业只是为了证明不是靠运气。

YouTube feels like I'm in a nice comfortable rhythm with this thing that I think is nice, and I'm I'm sort of coasting. And if there is another hill to climb or or a new a new challenge in YouTube, it's it's not really it's not really a hill that I I want I want to particularly climb. Right. Because the next challenge would be, what what? Make subscriber count go up, do more spectacular things, do challenges, do I started a business from scratch just to prove it's not luck.

所有这些事情，我都觉得，呃。你知道吗？我就是喜欢我现在的节奏，我读一本书。我读了德里克的新书，然后我就想，嘿，我读了这本书。

And all of all of these things, I'm like, ugh. You know what? I just love I just love my current rhythm of I read a book. I re I've read Derek's new book, and I'm like, hey. I read this book.

这本书很好。这里有一些经验教训。砰。然后，能够时不时有这样一个出口来做这件事，这才是我想要玩的YouTube游戏的水平，而不是试图加码，如果你在优化观看量或订阅增长，或者所有那种事情，你就必须这么做。对吧。

It's good. Here are some lessons. Boom. And, like, just being able to just have a outlet to do that every now and then, that that feels like the level of the YouTube game that I wanna play rather than trying to up the ante, which is sort of what you have to do if you're if you're optimizing for views or subscriber gain or, you know, all all that kind of stuff. Right.

所以我想，再次回到《每周工作四小时》结尾章节的内容，我重读了那段他谈到填补空虚的部分。当你凝视着那种空虚——比如我现在只需每周工作四小时——好吧，我到底想用这些时间做什么？归根结底是关于成长和贡献，就是找到成长或学习的方式，不断学习，并找到为他人做贡献的途径。

And so I guess in terms of again, I was rereading the the chapter at the end of the four hour work week where where he talks about sort of filling the void. The the the when you when you're staring into the void of like, I'm able to only work four hours week. Okay. What the hell do I wanna do with my time? And it comes down to kind of growth and contribution that, like, you know, finding a way to grow or learn, constantly be learning, and finding a way to contribute to others.

对于YouTube这件事，我觉得没有其他我真正在乎、能挑战我或帮助我成长的事情可做了。我从各个角度思考过这个问题。我可以尝试，比如制作非常电影化的内容，侧重于讲故事。但我觉得，我其实并不太想这么做。

I think on the YouTube thing, there isn't really any other game that I care to play that actually challenges me or helps me grow. I I've thought about this in all different ways. I could go down the okay. What if I made really, like, cinematic things that were, like, really leaned into storytelling? I'm like, I just don't really care to do that.

我就是喜欢简单直接的方式。就像你的博客，Derek，你的博客超级简洁，每篇文章就几段话或几句话，非常清爽。如果你真的努力推广，可能会获得更多读者，但你可能就是懒得那么做。

I just love hey. You know, kinda like your blog, Derek. Your blog is, like, super simple, a handful of paragraphs or sentences per post. It's super nice. You could probably get more readers if you really try to go but, like, you probably just can't be bothered with that.

所以我认为，在YouTube方面，我会让它继续维持下去，但我希望将YouTube重新转变为一份兼职。如果有人想成为YouTuber，我 ironically 有一个课程叫'兼职学院'。我现在发现，做一名兼职YouTuber比全职更有满足感，让它成为我副业而不是主业。

And so I think I'm on the YouTube thing, it's it's a thing to keep ticking along, but I would like to transition YouTube back to being a part time YouTuber. If anyone wants to be a YouTuber, have a course called the part time academy, ironically. I think being a part time YouTuber, I I have now found is more fulfilling than being a full time YouTuber, where it is a thing I do on the side rather than a thing that I do as my main gig.

这有点有趣，作为全职YouTuber，你教别人如何做兼职，现在轮到你自己采纳这个建议，如何再次转为兼职了。我喜欢这个。你觉得我应该讲AC/DC和Miles Davis的故事吗？

That is kinda funny that as a full time YouTuber, you give the how to be a part time course, and now it's time for you to take your own advice, how to go part time again. I like that. What did you think of the should I tell the ACDC Miles Davis story?

哦，是的，

Oh, yes,

请讲吧。那会是因为

please. That would be because

我收到了你的邮件，但对于那些没读你邮件的人来说。

I got your email up here, but for people who are not reading your email.

好的。ACDC对比迈尔斯·戴维斯。我希望大家至少能稍微理解这些音乐参考。但ACDC

Alright. ACDC versus Miles Davis. I hope people get these musical references even a little bit. But ACDC by

顺便问一下。你能提供一些

the way. Like, can you give some

背景信息

context to

给他吗？我是说，我听说过ACDC，但从没听说过迈尔斯·戴维斯。所以，这就是我的水平，嗯。

him? I mean, I've heard of ACDC. I've never heard of Miles Davis. So, like, that's my level of yeah.

关于ACDC的事情是，他们是1972年成立的澳大利亚摇滚乐队，风格是这样的。他们在这方面非常成功。《地狱钟声》、《回归黑暗》。他们成功后就说，好吧。

So the thing about, like, ACDC was this Australian rock band started in 1972 going like this. And they were very successful with it. Hells bells. Back in black. And they they got so successful with it that they said, alright.

我们就继续做同样的事情吧。从1972年到现在，大约五十年后，这些澳大利亚人四十年来一直在做完全相同的事情。如果你现在听ACDC的唱片，听起来几乎和四十年前一模一样。我无法想象过那样的生活。有人能接受这样做，这让我感到惊讶。

Let's just keep doing that same thing now. And from, like, 1972 until basically present day, whatever that is, fifty years later, these guys from Australia have done the exact same thing for forty years. If you get an ACDC record now, it sounds almost exactly like what they were doing forty years ago. I can't imagine living that life. It's amazing to me that somebody would be okay doing that.

这需要某种特定性格的人，也许是那种过去能在福特工厂工作五十年就感到快乐的人，拧了五十年的螺母。确实有某种性格的人能接受那样的生活。但我就做不到。一旦我有了张热门唱片，我可能会再做一张，然后就会说好了，等等，不要再继续了。同一个风格做两张唱片，足够了。

It takes a certain kind of personality, maybe the kind that used to just be happy working at a Ford factory for fifty years, punching the lug nuts for fifty years. There's a certain kind of personality that can be okay with that. But like I couldn't do that. Once I'd had a hit record, I'd maybe do a second one and then I'd say okay, wait no more of that. Like two records in the same genre, that's enough.

接下来还有什么？比如迈尔斯·戴维斯，著名的爵士小号手，在二十世纪四十年代，他是比波普爵士乐的主要先驱之一。他和查理·帕克、迪齐·吉莱斯皮一起参与了比波普爵士乐的诞生。他正处于核心位置，本可以像AC/DC那样一直坚持做同样的事情。但相反，在取得成功仅仅几年后，他就挑战自己改变风格。

What else is next? So Miles Davis, famous jazz trumpet player that in the nineteen forties, he was one of the, like, main kingpin pioneers of bebop. He was right there with Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie in, like, the birth of bebop jazz. He was right in the middle of it, and he could have just rode that out like ACDC and just kept doing the same thing. But instead, after just a couple years of success doing that, he challenged himself to change his style.

他稍微退后了一步。他去见了其他一些人，开始研究其他类型的音乐，然后推出了一种新声音，这就是著名的迈尔斯·戴维斯专辑《Kind of Blue》，我认为这是有史以来最畅销的爵士专辑。《Kind of Blue》是一次彻底的突破。比波普爵士乐每两拍就变换和弦，而《Kind of Blue》长时间停留在一个和弦上。人们都被震撼了。

He pulled back a bit. He went and met with some other people, started studying other kinds of music, and came out with a new sound that is the famous Miles Davis album called Kind of Blue, which I think is the best selling jazz album of all time. So Kind of Blue was a radical departure. Whereas bebop was all about changing the chords every two beats, Kind of Blue just stayed on one chord for a long time. And people were blown away.

就像，哇。革命性的新声音。看看迈尔斯·戴维斯在做什么。几年之后，他又说，好了，现在让我再改变一次。

Like, woah. Revolutionary new sound. Check out what Miles Davis is doing. And after a few years of that, he's like, alright. Now let me change it up again.

他开始研究西班牙管弦乐，与吉尔·埃文斯合作，三年后推出了完全不同的声音。我可以继续讲下去，但重点是，每次他取得成功后，都会以此为信号去做别的事情。就像，好了，我已经做过那个了。继续做同样的事情多可悲啊？所以还有其他艺术家也这样做过。

And he started studying, like, Spanish orchestral music and worked with Gil Evans and came out with a completely sound three years later. So I could keep going with this, but the point is, like, every time he was successful, he used that as his cue to do something else. Like, okay, I've done that already. How pathetic would that be to keep doing the same thing? So there are other artists that have done this.

大卫·鲍伊每隔几年就换一个新形象，改变他的音乐风格。Lady Gaga也做过类似的事情。保罗·西蒙也是这样。还有其他一些例子，但有些艺术家不断推动自己尝试从未做过的事情。一旦某件事成功了，就把它当作不再重复的信号。

David Bowie kept putting on a new persona every few years and changing his musical style every few years. Lady Gaga has done a version of this. Paul Simon was like that. There's some other examples, but there's some of these artists that keep pushing themselves to try the things they've never done. And once something becomes a hit, take that as a cue to not do that again.

所以我在想你是否能认同这两种方法中的一种。或者说，我从你所说的那种——我忘了你怎么称呼它——像是过剩的心理能量中感觉到，你就像在说，好了，我知道怎么做这个了。我能做这些YouTube视频。已经做过了。

So I was wondering if you could relate to one of these two approaches. Like, I or rather, I got the feeling that from what you were saying of this I forget what you called it, like excess mental energy that you're like, okay. I know how to do this. I can do these YouTube videos. Been there.

做过那个。我可以继续做下去。没问题。但我感觉你不是那种会像ACDC一样，几十年如一日地埋头苦干、重复做同一件事直到变得可悲的人。我这不是在带偏见。

Done that. I can keep doing it. It's fine. But I got the feeling that you were not the ACDC that is just gonna, like, keep chugging away and doing the same thing for decades until it's pathetic. Not that I'm biasing my angle.

是的。这些这些是很好的例子。是的。如果我想想，我内心有很大一部分确实是这样。我觉得上次没聊到这个。

Yeah. That that's good good good examples there. Yeah. If I think about it, there's there's a big part of me that's yeah. I don't think I talked about this last time.

但当你这么说的时候，我在想，是的，我很想改变现状。但内心有种恐惧，就像是——万一我是在把一切都抛弃了呢？你懂吗？比如，我之前在听另外两个YouTube博主之间的访谈，其中一个是我的朋友。

But as as you're saying that, I'm thinking, yeah, I would love to change things up. But the there's, like, a fear within me of, like but what if I'm just throwing it all away? What if you know? Like, I was I was listening to an interview between these other two YouTubers. One is a friend of mine.

其实他们俩都是朋友，但其中一个有大约2000万订阅者。他算是平台上最大的科技类YouTuber之一。他说他叫Aaron，他说自从开始做YouTube以来就从没休息过，因为即使你停更一两周，突然之间人们点击你下一个视频的意愿就会降低，算法也会怎样怎样。他说自己几乎一直处于 burnout 状态，但现在他觉得他频道的唯一目标就是能够在不 burnout 的情况下继续做下去。这算是他的下一个阶段目标。

Actually, they're both friends, but one has, like, 20,000,000 subscribers. He's, like, one of the biggest tech YouTubers on the platform. And he was saying his name his name is Aaron, and he was saying that he hasn't taken a break since starting YouTube because even if you stop uploading for, like, a week or two, suddenly, kind of people are less likely to click on your next video, the algorithm's gonna whatever. And he said that he's kind of been burnt out pretty much a 100% of the time, but sort of feels that this and his his, like, only goal for his channel was, like, to be able to do it without burning out now. Like, that's sort of his next his his next thing.

我在自己的YouTube生涯中也多少有这种感觉，就像是在问自己：我是不是太怂了？我是不是——你知道——我不喜欢...我实在是太走运了。有无数人梦寐以求想处于我这个位置。当我说这些时，我想到这和我当初离开医学行业时的情形有很多相似之处，那个问题困扰了我很久。我是否真的愿意把这一切都抛弃？

And I sort of feel that with my YouTube career to an extent where it's like, am I just am I just being a pussy? Am I just like you know, do I not like, I've I've I've lucked out so hard. Like, there are zillions of people that are that would kill to be in this position. And as as I'm saying that, I'm thinking, like, there's so many analogy there's so many parallels to, like, the leaving medicine thing where I was stuck on this for ages. Like, am I really willing to throw this all away?

说“抛弃一切”可能有点夸张。但从内容创作的仓鼠轮中退后一步，确实感觉像是在抛弃一切。而当初离开医学行业时，当我抛弃它的时候，我很确定——到我辞职的时候，我的YouTube频道年收入已经超过100万英镑了，这相当于英国初级医生25年的薪水。所以我真正抛弃的其实只是，我不知道，地位、声望之类的，而这些我完全能接受。

I have throw it all away. It's a bit, like, grandiose. But, like, taking a step back from the content creation hamster wheel sort of feels like throwing it all away. And with medicine, when I threw it all away, I had the certainty of like, by the time I quit medicine, I was making a million a year plus from my YouTube channel anyway, which is, like, twenty five years worth of a doctor junior doctor salary in The UK. So it wasn't really like like, the only thing I was throwing away was, I don't know, the status, the prestige, whatever, which I was totally happy with.

因为我想——好吧，“接受”可能更准确。但我已经想通了，愿意放弃执业医生的身份，因为意识到我不想一辈子活在“别人会怎么看我选择离开医学行业”的担忧中。而现在，想到要从YouTube频道上放松下来，或者不再追求持续增长的观看量，摆脱内容创作的仓鼠轮，感觉又像是在抛弃一切。但我还没有另一个确定的东西。所以相比离开医学行业时我已经把YouTube作为副业建立起来的情况，现在退出YouTube的仓鼠轮更像是走向未知。

Because I was like oh, well, happy is a strong word. But, like, I I came to terms with throwing away the status of being being a practicing doctor after realizing that I didn't wanna I didn't wanna live my life holding on to this worry about what will other people think of me if if I if I choose to leave medicine. Now now the thought of going away from sort of chilling out on the YouTube channel or, like, not pursuing continuing to pursue the views or getting off the content hamster wheel feels like I'd be throwing it away. But I don't have another thing that is that is certain yet. It's like that so stepping off the YouTube hamster wheel is more is is more going into the unknown compared to stepping off the medicine thing because I'd already built the YouTube thing as a of a side hustle then.

所以我在想，现在有了孩子（而且我们希望能有多个孩子，这取决于第一个孩子的情况），我是不是在放弃这一切？这就是钱的问题所在。生活成本，人们都说养孩子很贵。如果其中一个孩子有健康问题，所有这类事情都会接踵而至。

And so there's like, am I throwing it away now that I've got a kid on the way and we, you know, hopefully wanna have multiple kids depending on how kid number one goes? That's where oh, yeah. That's where the money thing comes in. It's like, well, you know, cost of living and, like, people say kids are expensive. And what if one of them has a health problem and, like, you know, all all of this sort of stuff.

就像，我会不会后悔没有趁着YouTube事业如日中天时多赚一些？因为未来根本无法保证。有趣的是，当我说这些时，我发现很多人对他们的日常工作也有完全相同的担忧。比如，日常工作太好了，年薪六位数，还不错。但我知道如果简历上有空档期，可能找下一份工作会更难，而且我还没有一个确定可行的商业想法。

Like, will I regret not making more hay while the sun is shining on my YouTube career right now with the way which which which there's no guarantee of further down the line? Because, like and it's interesting because as I'm saying this, I'm like I've had so many of these conversations with people who have this exact same concern about their day job. Like, oh, the day job is so good. Oh, you know, it's it's making 6 figures, and it's it's, like, fine. And I know if I take you know, if there's a gap on my resume that, like, maybe it'll be harder to get the next one, and I don't I don't have a business idea yet that I'm certain of.

是的。但我也对YouTube频道和课程业务有类似的感觉，它已经存在，正在运转。就像，我肯定是在做一件有益的事。

And yeah. But and I also feel sort of the same kind of thing with, like, the the YouTube channel and the courses business and stuff that it's like, it's a thing. It's it's it's here. It's it's working. Like, my like, surely, I would be doing a favor.

我肯定是对未来的家庭不负责任，如果我仅仅因为不再享受或其他类似的原因，就抛弃了这个我花了七年时间建立起来的东西。

Surely, I would be negligent to my future family for throwing away this thing that I I've worked for the last, like, seven years to build up just because I'm not enjoying it anymore or some shit like that.

这些有道理吗？

Does any of that make sense?

完全有道理。Tamer？

Totally. Tamer?

我不认为‘抛弃’是一个选项。我们已经，是的。我认为这回到了我们第一次播客中达成的观点，即‘抛弃’实际上是指让业务维持现状，每年产生一百万收入，而你假设接下来做的任何事情都不会赚钱，尽管它很可能会的。对吧？所以这并不是真的要抛弃一切。

I don't I don't think throwing away is on the table. I think we already, yeah. I think it goes back to the point that we reached on the first podcast where throwing away is actually the business coasting and generating a million a year, and you assuming that whatever you do next won't really make any money even though it probably will. Right? So there's it's not really about, like, throwing away everything.

这更像是，我是否想要，你知道，把我所有的时间和精力都投入到改进当前业务上，还是想找一个新项目来投入我的时间和精力？而其他事情还在继续运转，你仍然，你知道，你仍然在做其中一部分。

It's more like, do I wanna, you know, pour pour all of my time and effort into improving on the current stuff that the business is doing, or do I want to, like, find a new project to add to that where I'm spending my time and effort? And the rest of the stuff is chugging along, and you're still, you know, you're still doing some of it.

是的。说得好。我觉得这种放弃的恐惧是，你知道，马克·吐温有句名言，比如，我经历过很多恐惧，但几乎没有一个真正发生过，或者，你知道，就是那种情况。

Yeah. That's a good point. I think the throwing away fear is you know, that that there's that quote from Mark Twain where, like, I've I've known a great many fears, and almost none of them have actually happened or, you know, that that kind of thing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。我觉得围绕它的感觉是，就像，哦，就像从... 是的。就像当我与那些想要，比如，下定决心是否要辞职的人进行这类对话时，他们把辞职看作，比如，假设我年薪10万，他们把辞职视为损失了10万。

Yeah. I think the feeling around it is that, like, oh, like, going from yeah. It's like the thing when when I when I when I have these sorts of conversations with people who wanna who are, like, making the plunge of do I, like, quit my job? They're viewing quitting their job as like you know, let's say I'm earning a 100 k in the job. They're viewing that quitting the job thing as, like, I'm losing a 100 k.

但后来发现，实际上，他们只有50美元的储蓄，而且，比如，他们可以轻松地每周做一天自由职业来赚5万。最坏的情况，他们只是再找一份工作。也许那份工作支付9万。所以，就像，他们真正承担的风险只有1万，为了追求这个新梦想。然后在那样的世界里，那种‘我会最终破产、无家可归、孤独终老’的想法就显露出是海市蜃楼。

But it then transpires that, actually, they've got $50 in savings and also, like, they could easily do freelance one day a week to earn 50 k. And and worst case scenario, they just get another job. Maybe maybe that pays 90 k. So, like, it's really only a 10 k risk that they're taking for the sake of, like, pursuing this new dream. And then in that world, the whole, oh, I'm gonna end up broken, homeless, and alone kind of reveals itself to be a mirage.

我觉得我自己也陷入了同样的情绪中，我情感的部分在说，哦，如果我暂停YouTube，我会最终破产、无家可归、孤独终老。理性上，显然，这不会发生。

And I feel like I'm falling into that that that same thing myself of the emotional part of me is like, oh, if I take a break from YouTube, I'm gonna end up broken homeless and alone. Rationally, obviously, it's not gonna happen kind of thing.

我好奇你为什么要把警报扔进去。

I'm curious why you're throwing throwing the alert in there.

如果你的观看量低于某个数字，伊兹就会离开你。是啊。我嫁的不是只有一千个观众的人。你变成什么样了？是啊。

Izzy will leave you if your if your views drop below a certain number. Yeah. I didn't marry somebody with a thousand viewers. What have you become? Yeah.

顺便说一句，你们上次对话中我最喜欢的部分是弗兰克·奥申和阿兹·安萨里的那件事。我以前没听过这个，让我看看能不能准确复述。所以是阿兹·安萨里对吧？他在派对上遇到弗兰克·奥申，然后问他是怎么做到的？

By the way, my favorite part of your last conversation together was the Frank Ocean Aziz Ansari thing. I hadn't heard that before where am I gonna let me see if I can tell this correctly. So as was it Aziz Ansari? Right? And he asks Frank Ocean they meet at the party and says like how do you do it?

你想什么时候发布就什么时候发布。你就是做你想做的任何事。就像问你的秘诀是什么？然后他就说，你得接受少赚一点钱。我当时就说没错。

You just release whenever you wanna release. You just do whatever the hell do you do. Like what's your secret? And he just said you have to be okay with making a little less money. And I went yes.

那就是我的...我每周都会被问很多次这个问题。我会收到陌生人的随机邮件说，老兄，你就是做你想做的事。你的网站就像纯文本。你甚至不做社交媒体。怎么会有人连社交媒体都不做？

That was my I I get asked that many times a week. I get random email from strangers going, dude, you just do whatever you do. Your site is like plain text. You don't even do social media. How the hell does somebody not even do social?

有人告诉我，如果你看我的Instagram账号，我还没发过东西，但我有大约5000个粉丝。他们就像，这是怎么回事？这到底是什么？我说，嗯，就是观众少一些，或者我本可以有更多观众但我没有。我接受这一点，因为我卖出了几千本书，这对我来说足够了。

Somebody told me that if you look at my Instagram account, I I haven't posted yet, but I have something like 5,000 followers. And they're like, how do what is it? What the hell is this? And I said, well, just have less viewers or I have less of an audience than I could. And I'm okay with that because I'm selling a few thousand books and that's enough for me.

这就是为什么我有点喜欢我的低调生活。我喜欢不把一切都最大化。

And that's that's why I kinda like my low key life. I like not maximizing everything.

但是 嗯。

But Mhmm.

所以谢谢你，我之前没听过这个说法，但感谢你提出来。我非常喜欢这个观点。

So thank you for I hadn't heard that before, but thanks for bringing that up. I like that a lot.

是的。关于这个故事还有一个相关的观点，我最近一直在思考很多，就是我一直在琢磨这个想法：最初，每个人——我是说大多数人，根据调查和我观众的反馈来看——都在追求自由。自由是他们追逐的东西。摆脱不想做的事情的自由，做自己想做的事情的自由，辞职等等。

Yeah. There's a related point to that story that I've I've been thinking about a lot recently, which is I've been been playing around with this this idea that initially, like, everyone is well, I say everyone. Sort of the the people who follow my stuff and broadly people in my audience based on surveys and stuff are aspiring towards freedom. Freedom is the thing that they're they're chasing. Freedom from having to do shit they don't wanna do, freedom to do the things they want, quit the job, etcetera, etcetera.

而获得自由的方式是通过在工作之外赚钱，然后能够辞职。你知道，整个过程就是这样。但后来会有一个时刻，实际上，自由来自于放弃某些金钱。在某个阶段，自由不再来自于追求工作之外的最高被动收入，因为这本身在某个时刻会变成另一种牢笼。在某个时刻，你会意识到'足够了'，认识到如果我现在做x、y、z，我可以赚更多钱。但你知道吗？

And the way you get to freedom is by making money outside of the job and being able to then quit the job. You know, whole whole thing. But then there comes a point where, actually, freedom comes freedom comes from leaving money on the It it there there comes a point where freedom no longer comes from pursuing maximal passive income outside of the day job because that itself becomes its own prison at a certain point. And at a certain point, there's like, you know, that that thing that that point of enough and recognizing that I could be making more money right now if I were to do x, y, and z. But you know what?

我主动选择不去做，因为我喜欢现在生活的轻松状态。我喜欢我现在的名气程度。我喜欢每周只工作两天之类的。我喜欢能够按照自己的条件自助出版书籍，而不是与大出版社签约。这涉及到放弃一些金钱，而这成为了自由的代价。

I'm actively choosing not to because I like the chillness of my life right now. I like the level of fame I have. I like only working two days a week or whatever the thing might be. I like being able to self publish books on my own terms rather than get a big deal with a publisher. It's that's that involves leaving money on the table, and that then becomes the price of freedom.

就像，自由的代价就是在某个阶段你放弃的那些金钱。

Like, the price of freedom is the money you leave on the table at a certain point.

太喜欢这个观点了。我太喜欢了。

Love that. I love that.

我在这方面看到了这种情况

I'm seeing this with regards

无数次地面对生活。是的。

to life lots and lots of times. Yeah.

回到这个'抛弃'的话题，我的意思是，你想想，你作为生产力专家已经差不多七年了。你已经突破了大气层，达到了逃逸速度，现在就像在近地轨道上做这些生产力相关的事情。难道你不觉得，过去七年你真正最有价值的成就是突破了大气层，进入了近地轨道，现在你可以做任何想做的事？比如，你可以和世界上任何人开会。

Going back to this throwing away thing, I mean, what do you so, you know, you've you've been, like, the productivity guy for, I don't know, seven years or something now. And, you know, you you have you've you've kind of, you know, you've out of the atmosphere. You, like, you reached escape velocity, you've broken out of the atmosphere, and you're in like lower lower earth orbit or something doing this like productivity type stuff. Don't you feel like actually the most well, I well, I feel like the most the real the real valuable thing that you've accomplished over the last seven years or whatever is that you've, like, broken out of the atmosphere and you're now in lower earth orbit and you now have access to, like, whatever you wanna do. Like, you can get a meeting with anyone in the world.

你真的已经达到了一个成功的高度，无论是名声还是财富，现在世界真的是你的舞台。我觉得这才是最有价值的东西。对我来说，如果放弃这个，就像是在抛弃它。比如，如果你说'哦，我应该继续在近地轨道做YouTube生产力视频和运营我的课程'。

You can, like you know, you really you know, you've you've reached a level of success both just in terms of fame and in terms of money where now the world truly is your oyster. Oyster. And, like, I think that's the valuable thing. And to me, it feels more like throwing that away. Like, if you were like, oh, well, I should just stay in lower earth orbit making productivity videos on YouTube and running my course.

对我来说，那感觉就像是在抛弃你创造的真正价值，也就是你现在处于一个不同的存在层面，实际上你可以做任何事情。但不知何故，你决定继续做原来的自己。比如十年后，那些可能知道Ali Abdaal的随机人们会说'哦，是啊，他最近在忙什么？'

To me, that feels like you're throwing away the real value that you've created, which is that you are now in kind of, you know, you you you can you're now on a different plane of existence where you can't actually do anything. But somehow, like, you've decided to, like, end up continuing to be theo. Like ten years from now, you know, all the random people that might know about Ali Abad will be like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. What's he up to these days?

'哦，他还在做那些生产力的事情。他还在搞这个，那个什么的？好吧，随便吧。'你在听吗？

Oh, he's still oh, he's still doing that productivity stuff. He's still doing this, like, what's this or something? Okay. Fair enough. You there?

老兄，这听起来很 bleak（黯淡）啊。

Like, that seems bleak, dude.

Tamer，我很喜欢你提出这个话题。我超爱这个比喻——轨道。顺便说一下，各位听众，我想你指的是这个观点：对于火箭来说，90%的燃料都只是用来脱离轨道或脱离地球大气层的。

Tamer, I love that you brought this up, That I love this metaphor, the the orbit, which by the way, anybody listening, I think what you're referring to is this idea that for a rocket ship, it takes like 90% of the fuel just to get out of the orbit or get out of Earth's atmosphere.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。一旦你脱离了地球大气层，其他一切都变得容易了。所以你的意思是，某种程度上，就像阿里多年来的努力让他摆脱了那稠密的大气层，现在他已经属于那种能让任何事情发生的人群了。你可以给任何人打电话，我都会接听。你可以宣布你要做某件事，人们都会关注。

Yeah. Once you're out of Earth's atmosphere, everything else is easy. So you're saying in a way, like Ali's efforts for years and years and years got him out of that dense atmosphere and so now he's kind of in the category of people that can make anything happen. You can call anybody, I'll take their call. You can announce that you're doing a thing, people will pay attention.

所以某种程度上，你现在正处于任何新冒险的起点，无论你想朝哪个方向发展。你已经逃离了地球大气层。这可能仅仅是个开始，或者说应该是。是的，我认为你最后说的那句话——应该仅仅是个开始。

So in a way, you're you are at the very beginning of any new adventure, like any direction you wanna take it. You've gone you have escaped the Earth's atmosphere. This could be just the beginning or should be. Yeah. I think what you said at the end there should be just the beginning.

如果这不仅仅是你所能做的无数事情的开始，那将是很可悲的。在托尼·罗宾斯的书《唤醒心中的巨人》中，有一章他试图帮助人们大胆梦想。书中说，好了，现在你要打开日记本，大胆思考。你难道不想住在城堡里吗？你难道不想拥有一辆法拉利吗？

It would be pathetic if it was not just the beginning of any number of things you could do. There was in Tony Robbins' book, Awaken the Giant Within, there was a chapter where he was trying to help people dream big. And it said, okay, now you're gonna open your journals and you're gonna think big. Don't you wanna live in a castle? Wouldn't you love to have a Ferrari?

一整队法拉利怎么样？或者你自己的私人直升机，配有专属飞行员，随时带你去任何你想去的地方？我记得我十几岁时读这本书时在想，

How about a whole fleet of Ferraris? How about your private helicopter with your own private pilot to take you anywhere you want to go at any time? And I remember I was reading this book as a teenager thinking,

不。不。我一点都不想要

no. No. I don't want any

那些。搞什么鬼？谁他妈会想要一个全职直升机飞行员一直待在你的工资单上？呃。但我当然想成为某种了不起的人。

of that. What the fuck? Who the fuck wants a full time helicopter pilot to be sitting there on your payroll? Ew. But I sure as hell wanted to be something amazing.

我曾想成为一名伟大的音乐家，一位伟大的表演者，一位伟大的词曲作者。对我来说，这从来不是关于我想要拥有什么。所以我认为这对他有效。有时当你倾听别人的梦想，他们以为自己的梦想会激励你，但这并不适合你，这很艰难。

I wanted to be a great musician. I wanted to be a great performer, a great songwriter. To me, it's never been about the what I wanna have. So I think that that works for him. So it's tough sometimes when you listen to other people's dreams and they think that their dream is gonna inspire you, it doesn't work for you.

我真正受到我能做的自我提升的启发，这至今仍驱动着我。即使进入那种心态也还是很酷，比如我18岁时读到这个就在想，哇。我可能成为下一个王子，或大卫·鲍伊那样的人。那是在可能性的范围内。我不必像来自伊利诺伊州欣斯代尔的德里克那样只想小事。

I was really inspired by the self improvement I could do and that still drives me. It was still kind of cool even getting into that mindset though of like I was reading this as an 18 year old thinking, wow. I could be, like, the next prince or, David Bowie or something like that. Like, that is in the realm of possibility. I don't have to just think small like Derek from Hinsdale, Illinois.

你知道吗？所以，也许坚持你所知道的可能是想得太小了。

You know? So, maybe sticking with what you know is thinking too small.

哦，这很好。是的。我喜欢这个。这就是你一开始说的那件事，德里克，就像，如果迄今为止的旅程只是进入下一件事的门票呢？我认为这与这种有点像火箭飞船的比喻很契合。

Oh, that's good. Yeah. I like this. This is it's that it's that thing that that you said at the start, Derek, around, like, what if what if the journey so far was just the entry ticket into the next thing? I think that vibes with this sort of like kind of rocket ship kind of metaphor.

是的。说得好。

Yeah. That's a good point.

在我们结束之前，有两件事我一直憋着没说。你即将有孩子，我们不要轻视那件事的深刻性，比如这种神秘感，明年这将如何改变你的生活，那是一个巨大的未知，不知道这会是什么样子。我想知道你现在感受到的有多少可能潜意识或无意识地是对即将到来的未知的恐惧。就像，我们不要忘记这一点。然后另一件我想在忘记之前提出的事是，我知道你已经对你下一本书有了相当确定的想法。而且我知道我会再做一个音乐参考。王子，你知道，他最大的热门作品是专辑和电影《紫雨》。

Before we wrap it up, there are two things I've been kind of biting my tongue on. You have a kid coming and let's not diminish the profoundness of that like that mystery of how this is going to change your life next year and that is such a giant unknown of what this is gonna be like I wonder how much of what you're feeling now might subconsciously unconsciously be a fear of the unknown to come Like like, let's not forget that. And then the other thing I wanna throw out before I forget is I know that you already have a pretty certain idea of what your next book is. And I know that I'll make another musical reference. Prince, you know, his his biggest hit ever was the the album and movie called Purple Rain.

他做了一件非常聪明的事。在《紫雨》上映前的九个月，他已经完成了录制，他们完成了电影拍摄，离上映日期还有九个月。他利用那九个月时间，提前去写并录制了他的下一张专辑，因为他知道这张专辑会如此成功，真的会让他的生活陷入旋风。所以他说他做过的最好的事情之一就是先写并录制他的下一张专辑，这样在他成名一年后，他就发布了那件他一年前完成的作品，因为那一年他的生活已经变得疯狂。所以现在对你来说可能是一个非常好的时机，花上五个月、六个月的时间专注于那下一本书并完成它，知道你已经对下一步有了好想法，但你不是100%不确定下一步是什么。

He did something really smart. In the nine months before Purple Rain came out, he had finished recording it, they'd finished filming the movie, and it's gonna be nine months before the release date. He took that nine months and went and wrote and recorded his next album in advance because he knew that this thing was gonna be such a big hit that it was gonna really throw his life in a tornado. So he said one of the best things he ever did was writing and recording his next album first So that then a year after he got famous, he just released that thing that he had finished a year earlier because his life had gone crazy that year. So it might be a really good time right now for you to spend whatever five months, six months focusing on that next book and getting it out, knowing that you've you've got a good idea of what's next, but you're not a 100% uncertain of what's next.

但有一件事是确定的，或者说相当确定的是下一本书会是什么。在你思考其他事情的时候，这可能是全身心投入其中的好时机。不错。是的。

But one thing that is certain or pretty damn certain is what that next book is gonna be. Might be a really good time to throw yourself into that while you're thinking of this other stuff. Nice. Yeah.

关于孩子这一点，我遇到的每个父母，我都会问他们：有孩子后如何改变了你对工作的态度？对有些人来说，就像是：哦，它让我意识到工作完全毫无意义，我只想花所有时间陪孩子。对另一些人来说，就像是：哦，它让我意识到实际上工作现在变得非常有意义，因为我是为了比我自己更伟大的事情而做——为了养家糊口，或者为我的孩子建设一个更美好的世界。但就我所知，对于大多数和我足够相似的人，包括泰莫尔，感觉就像是：是的。

Think on the kid point, every parent that I meet, I ask them the question of like, how does having the kid change your relationship to work? And for some people it's like, oh, it made me realize that work was completely meaningless and I just wanna spend all my time with a kid. Some people, it's like, oh, it made me realize that actually work is really now meaningful because I'm doing it for something greater than myself. I'm doing it to provide or to build a better world for my for my kid. But for most most people who are similar enough to me that I know of, including Taymor, it's like, yeah.

有孩子很酷。就像是生活中这个领域里的一件事，但我仍然想在工作上做点什么。我仍然想做些感觉有意义、有挑战性、充实的事情。有孩子并没有减少我需要在工作类别中也用时间做点事情的需求。相关地，我之前和一个朋友聊天，我们曾经一起在私募股权行业工作。

Having the kid is cool. It's like it's like a a thing in this this area of of life, but I still wanna do something for work. I still wanna do something that feels, like, meaningful and, like, you know, challenging, fulfilling, and stuff. And having the kid doesn't reduce the the need to do to also be doing something with my time in the work work category. Relatedly, I was speaking to a friend who we used to work in private equity.

显然，他们有时会说这是在'储备干火药'，就像是他们在囤积现金，因为在私募股权中，现金就是选择权，当市场条件不太合适时，他们就在囤积现金，四处看看，从投资者那里筹集一些资金等等，这样当他们看到下一个机会时，就可以部署那些干火药。我觉得这像是火药之类的比喻，然后它可以点燃并做出一些有趣的事情。

And apparently, they've got this the the this thing that they sometimes say is sort of like stockpiling dry powder, where they're like, you know what? They're just like stockpiling cash because cash is optionality when you're in private equity because the market the conditions in the market are not quite right. They're sort of stockpiling cash, having a look around, raising some money from investors, whatever, such that when they see the next opportunity, they can deploy that dry powder. I think it's like a gunpowder analogy or something. And then it can ignite and do something interesting.

我一直在想，你知道，在接下来的几个月直到宝宝出生之前，我不会知道宝宝的到来会如何改变我的生活，是否我会突然觉得：实际上，你知道吗？我很高兴我什么都不用做，因为其实我只想整天和孩子待在一起。那太棒了。或者我可能会想：你知道吗？

And I was I've been thinking that, you know, for the next few months until baby arrives, I won't know how the arrival of baby will change my life, whether I'll suddenly be like, actually, you know what? I'm so glad. I don't have to do anything because actually, I just wanna hang out with a kid all day. It's like, great. Or I might be like, you know what?

现在我看到这个孩子，突然我意识到，天啊，教育系统糟透了，我想帮忙真正修复它。然后那就像点燃了火焰。所以也许在接下来的六个月里，也许实际上只是把它看作干火药储备季节，就像是：好吧，让我们把事情安排妥当，简化业务，做那些几乎最大化这个人生季节选择权的事情，这样宝宝出生后，当我对产后感受有更多信息时，我就能决定在哪里部署额外的潜在能量，如果这说得通的话。也许就是这样。

Now now that I I see this kid, suddenly I realized that like, man, the education system sucks and I wanna help actually fix it. And then that like lights the fire. So maybe for the next everything that for the next for the next six months, maybe it is actually just a case of thinking of it as the dry powder stockpiling season where it's like, okay, let's just line the ducks up, streamline, simplify the business, do the things to sort of maximize almost like optionality in this season of life, such that post baby, when I have more information about how I'll feel post baby and stuff, I'll then be able to decide where to deploy the additional the extra sort of potential energy, if that makes Maybe that's the thing.

是的。那可能是个好策略。

Yeah. That could be the move.

这可能是正确的方向。总之，谢谢大家。这次交流非常有帮助。我感觉思路更清晰了，好的。如果我试着总结行动要点或收获的话，那就是我真的很喜欢这个想法——迄今为止的旅程就像是获得下一件事的入场券。

That could be the move. Anyway, thanks, guys. This has been this has been very helpful. I feel like I have more clarity in the sense okay. So if if I try and summarize action points or, like, takeaways, it would be, I really like this thing around, like, what if the journey so far has is just the sort of the entry the entry ticket to the next thing.

关于这一点，如果十年后我还在继续制作关于如何使用日历的视频，并销售如何使用日历的课程，那会有点逊。是的，那样确实会有点逊。就像我第一个成功的事业是教孩子们如何进入医学院。做了几年之后，我就在想，如果我30岁了还在教孩子们如何进入医学院，那真的很逊。

This thing around, like it would be a bit lame if, like, ten years from now, I'm, like, continuing to make videos about how to use your calendar and selling a course on how to use your calendar. That yeah. That that that that would be kinda lame. In the in the in the same vein as, you know, my first business that was successful was teaching kids how to get into med school. And after a few years of doing this, I was like, man, it would be really lame if I'm 30 and still trying to teach kids how to get into med school.

这更像是二十出头时该做的事。是的。我觉得是同样的道理，如果我40岁了还在教别人如何管理日历，呃。是的。所以知道这一点很好。

Like, this is a sort of early twenties kind of of thing. Yeah. I think it's sort of that same thing where it's like, if I'm 40 and still teaching people how to manage that calendar, ugh. Yeah. So that's that's good to know.

很高兴知道我也同意那样会有点逊。这几乎给了我一点推动，让我梦想更大一些。我喜欢你提出的那个框架，Tamer，继续做同样的事情比尝试新事物更像是浪费更多。因为，就像是的。所以是的。

It's good to know that I agree that that would be a bit lame. And so that's almost gives me a bit of a nudge to dream a little bigger. And I liked that framing that you said, Tamer, of, like, it is it would be throwing more of it away to continue doing the same thing than to try and do something new. Because, like yeah. So yeah.

你知道，也许这就是我试图做的音乐类比，虽然AC/DC是个例外，但对大多数优秀艺术家来说，如果你几十年都做完全相同的音乐，那会有点可悲。你应该进步和改变。如果去买一张鲍勃·迪伦的唱片，听到他四十年来一直在做完全相同的事情，那该多悲哀？你期望任何有才华的艺术家都应该不断变化、不断探索，而不是停留在同一个窠臼里。所以，是的，你有一个聪明的头脑。

You know, maybe that's the musical reference I was trying to make where with ACDC as the exception, but for most good artists, it would be kind of pathetic if you just kept doing the exact same kind of music for decades. You're supposed to progress and change. How sad would it be to go get a Bob Dylan record and hear him do the exact same thing he's been doing for forty years? You expect any artist who's got a brilliant mind is supposed to keep changing and keep exploring and not just stay on the same rut. So, yeah, you've got a you've got a bright mind.

你不是那种墨守成规的类型。很好。好吧。

You're not the the rut type. Nice. Alright.

我觉得这是个很好的结束点。谢谢大家抽出时间。谢谢你，Derek，从新西兰加入。

I think that's a good place to wrap things up. Thank you guys for taking the time. Thank you, Derek, for hopping on from New Zealand. And

很好。谢谢

Nice. Thank

感谢大家的聆听。如果愿意的话，请在下方留言评论，希望我们能在下一期节目中再见。再见。

thank you everyone for listening. Please do leave comments down below if you would like, and we will see you hopefully in the next episode. Bye bye.