157：改变的免疫力

大家好，我是Joy。

Hey, guys. This is Joy.

我是Claire。

And this is Claire.

我们已经聊了大概二十分钟，因为JK来了所以必须开始录音。我们会进行一次很棒的对话。刚才在聊去杂货店的经历，聊飞行夹克。Claire开了个超好笑的玩笑，因为Scott有件和奥巴马同款的飞行夹克。

We've been talking for, like, twenty minutes, so we just had to hit record because JK's here. We're gonna have a great conversation. Were talking about trips to the grocery store. We were talking about bomber jackets. Claire made a really funny joke because, Scott has the same bomber jacket as Obama.

Claire说：'这是奥巴马同款夹克吗？'

And Claire said, is it an Obama jacket?

所以

So

你错过了。

you missed out.

确实是

It was

就像一个内部笑话。它结束了，消失了。今天我们要讨论行为改变，想聊什么就聊什么。

like an inside joke. It's it's over. It's gone. We're gonna talk about behavior change today. We're gonna talk about a lot of whatever we feel like talking about.

年底了。但我觉得专门聊聊新年决心这类行为话题会很酷。最近我听了一期关于‘改变免疫力’的节目，非常有意思。我们会稍微讨论这个，还有其他有趣的内容。

It's the end of the year. But I thought it would be really cool to talk about specifically kind of like the New Year's resolution behavior stuff. We I listened to an episode recently around the immunity to change, which I thought was really fascinating. So we'll talk a little bit about that. And we'll get to all those fun things.

我们有精彩的实时聊天，这期节目会很棒。欢迎大家，欢迎JK。

We have a great live chat. It's gonna be a wonderful episode. Welcome, everybody, and welcome, JK.

你好。嗨。

Hello. Hi.

终于把你请来了。上周我们尝试过，想让你参与巴黎世家的讨论——顺便说，你的播客帮我理解了这件事。你稍微涉及了这个话题，我很感激，也喜欢你的视角。如果想听更多关于巴黎世家的讨论，大家可以听听那期播客。

We got you here. Last week, we tried. We tried to get you on with the Balenciaga conversation, which, by the way, your podcast helped me understand. You covered it a little bit, which I really appreciate, and I liked your perspective. So let's just, like, guide everyone to that podcast if you wanna hear more of the discussion of the Balenciaga.

另外，虽然我不是真正的体育狂热者，但我确实很欣赏你们关于迪昂·桑德斯的讨论。

And also, you know, I'm not like a real sports fanatic, but I do I did really appreciate the conversation also around Dion Sanders.

你们可是身处风暴中心啊，你们就在

Well, you're in the heart of it. You guys are in the heart of

我们正身处其中。简单快速地说一下，因为这件事在这里确实是个大新闻。但我觉得人们并不真正了解他的背景故事——他从哪里来、在哪里执教过，而现在他要来到一所白人占主导的学校（PWI）。

it. We're in the heart of it. And, you know, it's let's just cover this really quick because here it's like real a really big deal. But I don't think people are really understanding the backstory where he came from and where he was coaching and now that he's coming to a prom predominantly white school. PWI.

对，PWI。是的，对于那些不了解的人来说...

Yeah. PWI. Yeah. Which for people who have

完全不知道我们在说什么对吧？迪昂·桑德斯，你们可能觉得这个名字耳熟，他是90年代末非常著名的橄榄球运动员？

no idea what we're talking about, yep. Dion Sanders, who you guys might think like, that name sounds familiar, was a very prominent football player in what kind of the late nineties era?

没错，就这么说吧。

Yeah. That sounds let's go with that.

是的，他即将成为科罗拉多大学博尔德分校橄榄球队的主教练，这个球队历史问题重重。90年代末他们很强，但2000年代初差点被禁赛——如果这个词适用于球队的话——他们是最早被曝光利用性诱惑招募球员的学校之一，用啦啦队员和姐妹会成员来吸引新生。我2002到2010年在那里读书时，情况已经好转了。

Yeah. And he is the incoming head coach, for the University of Colorado at Boulder football team, which is historically fraught. The they used they were great in the late nineties, and then in the early two thousands, they were almost disbarred, if that's what you say for football teams, for, they were one of the first schools where it was exposed that they were basically using sex to lure incoming football players. They were using the cheerleaders and other and, sororities to, you know, try to get people to be excited about coming to play football there. And ever and, like, that then So I went to see you from 02/2006, 02/2010, and we were like okay by then.

但球队...抱歉我说'我们'是指学校而不是球队。自90年代末的辉煌时期后，他们就再没能重振雄风，上个赛季战绩是1胜11负。所以迪昂·桑德斯出任主教练是件大事，因为他们很久没能吸引到优秀教练了。

But they were. I can't I just referred we as a as a football team, but we as a school during that time. And just ever since the late ninety glory days of the football team have not been able to get back get their feedback under them, to the point where this past season they were one in 11. They're way won one game. So, yeah, so Dion Sanders is the incoming head football coach, and it's a humongous deal because they have not been able to attract good coaching talent.

他们也确实很久没能吸引优秀球员了，所以现在这里讨论热度很高。这可能是我有生以来最懂体育的一次了，恭喜我吧。

They really haven't been able to attract good playing talent, so it's like a real big buzz here right now. That's probably, like, the most sports knowledge I've ever had. So congratulations.

我为你感到非常骄傲。

I'm pretty proud of you.

相当权威的总结。如果我能补充一点的话。是的。对于体育迷来说，他们几乎就要面临所谓的体育项目'死刑'惩罚。这个术语当年在南方卫理公会大学小马快递丑闻时曾被使用。

Pretty legit rundown. If I can add a little bit. Yeah. For the for the sports junkies, like, they pretty much were close to getting what's called the death penalty for for their sports program. So that's the term that pretty much was used, like, backwards in the day with Southern Methodist with the Pony Express scandal.

ESPN的30 for 30节目对此做过精彩报道。贝勒大学差点也遭遇同样惩罚——讽刺的是基于类似指控。他们篮球队甚至还涉及严重刑事犯罪包括命案，简直骇人听闻。我讨论的核心是某些圈层正在发生的现象：从传统黑人大学(HBCU)转向白人主导院校(PWI)。迪昂选择杰克逊州立大学的重要动机之一就是...

ESPN thirty for 30 did a great thing on it. Baylor University almost got it based on, ironically enough, some of the same sorts of allegations going on. And then they also had some pretty heavy criminal criminal activity, like even homicide happen on their basketball team, like some some insane things. So, really, one of the things that I talked about was the what's happening within certain circles where you're moving from an HBCU, historically black college university, over to a PWI, predominantly white institution. And where the the conversation is really based on is a large part of his of Dion's entry into Jackson State was, hey.

我来是为了改变HBCU体育文化，改变人们的期望，吸引更多人才——用他的话说——避免人才持续流失到PWI。但这也引发了内部争论：你说要改变文化，现在却要转去别处，还声称自己得到了'晋升'。

I'm here to change the culture of HBCU athletics and to change what people's expectations are and to attract more talent so that we don't keep and I'm paraphrasing. We don't keep losing talent to PWI. And so there's this kind of internal argument that's happening with, like, well, you said you were here to change a culture. Like, are you really done? And now you're going somewhere else, and you're saying you're you've been you're being elevated.

这些都是他使用的措辞。这其实是场非常微妙的讨论，就像大多数复杂议题一样。你明白吗？

Like, those are the terms he uses, things like that. So there's it's an inter it's an a very nuanced conversation as most things are. You know?

当然，像博尔德这样明显以白人为主的地区——我刚查了科罗拉多大学官网数据，约70%是白人学生。黑人学生比例小到在饼图上连具体数字都标不出，只有个微小的深蓝色楔形。

And then, of course, like so Boulder, obviously, very predominantly white area. I just looked it up on the, CU website, and it's about 70% white. The student body at Boulder is about 70% white, and the percentage of black students is so small that it doesn't even get a number in the pie chart. It's just like a teeny tiny little dark blue wedge at the very end. So

这里还有什么是你觉得有趣的？

What would be even interesting there too?

目的是看看这些孩子中有多少是非运动员。

Is to see how many of those kids are nonathletes.

答对了。

Bingo.

是啊。说实话，当我在CU读书时，如果班上还有另一个黑人学生，大家就会想：我打赌这人肯定是运动员。嗯。总之，多样性真的很低。这很有趣——如果没有多元化的学生群体，你就无法吸引多元化的学生，但他们似乎也没采取什么措施...我不确定。

Yeah. Honestly, when, you know, when as a student at CU, it was if you had another, like, another black student in one of your classes, it was sort of like, oh, I bet that person is an athlete. Mhmm. They're anyway, the diversity is real low. And then it's becau it's an interesting you know, it's and it's like, well, you're not gonna attract a diverse body of students if you don't have a diverse body of students, but there's also nothing that they really I don't know.

也许他们在幕后做了很多工作。就像我说的，距离我大学毕业已经...不是十五年...我毕业多久了？对，差不多十五年了。

Maybe they're doing a lot behind the scenes. Like I said, it's been fifteen years since I've been not fifteen years. How long has it been since I've been in college? Yeah. Like, almost fifteen years.

如今的博尔德和我成长时期已经不同了，但在那个方面变化并不大。

Boulder is a different place than it was when I was growing up, but not that different in that regard.

没错。我是说，这个人气场强大——他们甚至播放了他走进最近篮球比赛场馆的画面。观众可能都没注意比赛进程，球队打得实在太差了。虽然橄榄球队在11年赢过比赛，但按传统来看，现在这支球队简直烂透了。

Yeah. He's I mean, one of the things is he is when I say this this man is a powerful presence, I mean, they they even showed, like, him walking into the most recent basketball game in the arena. Like, I don't even know if anybody was even paying attention to anything that was going on. Like, they're terrible. And so that that also, though, like the football team won in 11 and traditionally, at this point, traditionally awful.

这也加剧了讨论：他从一所取得巨大成功的学校转来——他们刚在上周完成不败赛季，即将参加相当于HBCU全国冠军赛的比赛。而现在他要接手的几乎是垫底的烂摊子。这里面还有太多其他因素了。

So that also is adding to this conversation of you go from like, he's been extremely successful at his school. They just finished an undefeated season a week from yesterday. They're going to be playing for essentially what's the HBCU national championship at this point. So he's going from, like, an extremely high level HBCU program to, pretty much legit bottom of the barrel. So there's there's so many other pieces, though.

他能做些什么来提升他的教练团队，这是我提到的其中一点。他的助理教练们现在的薪水将超过他在杰克逊州立大学担任主教练时的收入。这里面涉及太多不同的方面了。所以我特别想看看事情会如何发展，尤其是因为这正在影响那些甚至不是体育迷的人。

What he can do to elevate his coaching staff, and that's one of the things I mentioned. His assistant coaches Yeah. Now will be paid more than he made as a head coach at Jackson State. Like, there's just so many different pieces to this. So I'll just be interested to see how things go, especially because, you know, this is impacting this is having, like, an effect on people who aren't even sports fans.

比如，他已经开始——我不知道你是否在社交媒体上看到过什么。他的儿子负责运营他的社交媒体账号。他开始做采访，或者说不是采访，而是对博尔德地区不同餐厅的点评。这个人很懂怎么操作。

Like, he's already started I don't know if you've seen anything from social media. Like, his son runs his social media. He started doing interview or not interviews, reviews of different restaurants within the Boulder area. Like, the man knows how.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

他知道怎么处理他的...他是

He knows how to do his He's

瞬间就变成了博尔德的网红。

becoming a Boulder influencer just instantly.

哦，他可不傻。这完全是

Oh, he's not he's not dumb. Like, this is

哦，绝对的。

Oh, totally.

他就像在推特上一样。他说，听着。任何想转会的人，我都不难找。这家伙很清楚自己在做什么。他被称为黄金时段不是因为他默默无闻。

It's like he's on Twitter. He's like, listen. Anybody who wants to transfer, I ain't hard to find. Like, the man knows what he is doing. He's not called primetime because he was, like, like, not on the radar.

他就像带电一样。这家伙充满能量。我简直爱死他的表现了。最有趣的是看他如何运用天赋来提升水平、改变游戏规则。因为事情会变得非常有意思——毕竟那些大金主们，多半是白人男性。

Like, he is electric. This dude is electric. Like, I I absolutely love, like, what he does. It's just going to be very interesting how he uses his natural gift to then perhaps elevate things and change the game. Because I think it's gonna get real interesting because there's obviously, like, the big donors, probably predominantly white male donors.

而且迪昂也表明了他不是那种会乖乖听话的人。所以当他开始公开反对某些看不惯的事情时，场面会很有趣。我就想知道到时候他们是否还会拍着他后背说'贿赂迪昂'。

And Dion is also not he's shown that he's not somebody who's going to toe the line and just do whatever you tell him to do. So it's gonna be very interesting when he starts being outspoken about some of the things that he's not digging. I'll just be real interested if they're still going to pat him on the back and be like, bribe dime.

所以说洛夫很聪明。这是有意为之——乍看之下你会疑惑他为何这样选择。我们只需静观其变，这步棋自有深意。

So Love that's and I he's a smart guy. This is deliberate because when you, at face value, look at this, you're like, why would he make a choice like that? So we're you're just sitting back going, can't wait to see how this unfolds. There's a purpose to his move.

这让我想起之前和德州CrossFit健身房老板Tee的对话。他坚持不脱离CrossFit的原因是想从内部改变现状。我觉得这里也有类似逻辑——虽然我纯属外行瞎猜，但感觉这种疯狂背后存在某种策略。

Yeah. This reminds me of quite a while back having a conversation with my friend Tee who owns, the CrossFit box in Texas. And one of the things that I'll never forget that he told me was one of the reasons that he didn't deaffiliate with CrossFit during everything that was happening was because he wanted to change things from the inside. And I think that there's a piece here, you know, me with my completely uneducated opinion, however, I'm just gonna go with it. I think there's a method to the madness here of, hey.

你们尽可以批评我离开HBCU。但我相信自己的使命——在外围没人会听我的，可如果我在内部，特别是当我赢比赛、吸引观众时，他们就不得不容忍我的存在。当然这只是我的直觉判断。

Criticize me all you want for leaving the HBCU. I believe that I'm on a mission here, and you're not gonna listen to me if I'm on the outside. But if I'm on the inside and especially if I'm winning and I'm putting butts in the seats, you you're gonna have to, like, you're gonna have to put up with me and you're gonna have to deal with me. So it's gonna be that's that's what I'm saying. Like, I I have no factual basis for this.

我就觉得...肯定会很有意思，充满悬念。

I'm just like Sure. I think I think it's gonna be very interesting, Intrigue. Well,

如果你想出来看CU比赛，尽管告诉我们。

if you wanna come out and go to a CU game, you just let us know.

是啊，别在那上面玩。

Yeah. Don't play on that.

不，我是认真的。

No. Seriously.

我觉得那会是一票难求，超级抢手的票。不过幸运的是，我们团队里有票务高手飞马，懂吗？

I think that that's gonna be a a hot ticket, a super hot ticket. So fortunately, we have the ticket Pegasus within the the crew. You know?

我们确实有。我超爱'黄金时段'这个绰号，觉得这绰号太棒了。

So We sure do. I just love the nickname primetime. I think that's such a great nickname.

我还以为你要说飞马呢。不不不，我也超爱飞马这个绰号。

I thought you were gonna say Pegasus. No. No. No. I also love the nickname Pegasus.

哦抱歉，我本来要说迪昂的绰号'黄金时段'。不过对，飞马，没错。

Oh, sorry. I was going to Dion's name, primetime. I'm just like so yeah. Pegasus. Yeah.

抱歉，我们有点混乱。绰号的事。斯科特现在用了迪翁的绰号'黄金时段'。天哪。

I'm sorry. We're all over the place. Nicknames. Scott has now Scott has now assumed Dion's nickname of Primetime. Oh my goodness.

如果他刚从亚马逊订了一堆东西，这招可能管用。毕竟你喜欢亚马逊Prime会员。伙计们，我今天早上状态火热，而你们完全不在状态。我的努力都白费了。谢谢聊天区的朋友们用笑哭表情包打赏我。

That could work if he ordered a bunch of stuff from Amazon. Because if you like Amazon Prime. Guys, I am on fire this morning, and you are not either. It's just my efforts are wasted. Thank you, people at the chat rewarding me with laughing emojis.

我的天啊。

Oh my gosh.

这绝对需要音效配合。

It definitely needs sound effects.

谢谢你做了这个。所以

Thank you for making that one. So

我们想从哪里开始？从我发的那期节目开始？还是克莱尔，我知道你上次有个关于健身房预期的话题没聊完，就是那种CrossFit和现在健身方式的对比。

where do we wanna start? Do we wanna start with, that episode that I sent? Or, Claire, I know you had a little bit of a topic that we didn't get to last time about kinda like gym expectations, CrossFit versus working out now.

我觉得这些都可以串起来。很好。从健身房预期开始吧。是的。有件事你们都知道，我最近一直在做F45训练，而且非常享受。

I think they all go together. Great. Start gym expectations. Yeah. So one thing that, you guys all know I've been doing f 45 lately, and I've been really enjoying it.

我又招募了朗蒙特地区的一位朋友，几年前我们在当地做CrossFit时认识的，后来都因为各种原因离开了那家CrossFit健身房。永远忘不了那次我被冤枉举报了朗蒙特的CrossFit健身房给卫生部门，虽然不是我干的，但现在倒有点希望当初是我举报的

I recruited another one of my friends in the Longmont area who we met doing CrossFit in Longmont a few years ago and then both left the CrossFit gym in the area for you know for various reasons. Never forget that time that I got blamed for calling the health department on the CrossFit gym in Longmont, which I did not do, but now sort of wish that I

哦，我都忘了这事。等等，等一下。

Oh, forgot about that. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

你能

Can you

再讲一遍那个故事吗？我有点记不清了

tell that story again? Because I kind of forgot

关于...朗蒙特有家CrossFit健身房。我就不具体点名了，但

about So there is a CrossFit gym in Longmont. I'm not gonna yeah, I won't name it but

反正也就那一家吧。

There's like one. Either.

其实有两家。在疫情最严重那会儿——其实也不算最严重时期，因为他们还开着——大概是2020年初秋，我们算是半复工状态。记得有次我把车送到离Cresta健身房很近的修车厂，路过时发现里面所有人都没戴口罩在锻炼。那时候看到不戴口罩的人都够震惊的，更别说挤满人的健身房了

There's two. During like the height of COVID, like that first I mean it wasn't like the height height of COVID because they were open, but it was like going into the first like, you know, probably early like mid fall twenty twenty. When we were kind of back but not really. I remember I was dropping off my car at an auto shop that was very near the Cresta gym and I happened to walk by and noticed that everybody inside was working out without masks on. And at that, I mean that still at that point was like shocking to see anyone without a mask on let alone a full packed gym

健身房。

Gym.

里面全是锻炼不戴口罩的人。我在播客里聊过这事，当时就觉得难以置信。你知道，这真的让我很震惊。那时候的我简直觉得这种行为太不负责任了。科罗拉多州明明有口罩令的。

Full of people in the middle of a workout without a mask on. And I talked about it on the podcast, I was like, I cannot believe that was happening. You know, that is just, like, so shocking to me. I never like, that me at the time, you know, it's like, that's irresponsible. We have a mask mandate in the state of Colorado.

严格来说他们是在韦尔德县。我这么说等于暴露是谁了，但你想查就查吧，反正都是几年前的事了。严格来说他们在韦尔德县。我所在的博尔德县和韦尔德县就隔着一脚油门距离，那可是科罗拉多州的另一端。

Technically, they were in Weld County. Now I just gave away who it is, but if you wanna look it up, I don't care. This was years ago. Technically, they're in Weld County. Where I'm in Boulder County, I am like a hop, skip, and a jump away from Weld County, which is the other side of Colorado.

那边是搞水力压裂的。韦尔德县倒也不全是劳伦·博伯特那种极端派，但外界总以为我们科州全是自由派的环保主义者。其实就丹佛和博尔德这片区域是这样。往北走到柯林斯堡那边全是牧场主。

It's the fracking. It's the low and the like, I mean, Weld isn't fully on, like, the Lauren Boebert train, but, like, in the state of Colorado, everybody thinks that we're all these, like, liberal, you know, tree huggers. It's really just like Denver and Boulder area. Yeah. If you go north and even into Fort Collins, it's ranchers.

要是再往南走...得开车去的那种南边。

If you go South South. In a car.

离我父母住的地方更近。那边很多牧场主。

Closer to where my parents live. A lot of ranchers.

是伯德县。对。就是

It's boa bird. Yep. It's

波阿鸟很美味。

boa bird delicious.

是的。往东走是牧场主，往西走也是牧场主。数量很多，或者说，并非所有人都是牧场主，但这些地区的主要经济历来以农业、畜牧业为基础，甚至还包括油田。所以故事的重点是，我们确实有贾里德·波利斯，他是我们的同性恋犹太裔州长，但同时也有劳伦·博伯特，她住在一个名叫‘科罗拉多步枪镇’的地方，认为新冠不存在，特朗普是救世主再临，我们只需要别挡她的路。

Yeah. If you go east, it's ranchers. If you go west, it's ranchers. It is a lot or I mean, they aren't all ranchers, but, like, that's those are a lot of the more predominant economies of those areas are historically based in farming, in ranching, even in and also in, oil fields. And so the point of the story is that, yes, we do have Jared Polis, is our gay Jewish governor, but we also have Lauren Boebert who lives in a town that is literally called Rifle Colorado and doesn't think that COVID exists and thinks that Trump is the second coming and, you know, we just need to get out of her way.

我举这个例子是想说明科罗拉多州人口多样，我住在一条重要的县界附近。总之，韦尔德县卫生部门当时试图说口罩是可选佩戴的。我就想，如果州政府规定必须戴口罩，县里怎么能直接拒绝执行呢？我直接跳到故事结尾吧，我在播客里讲过这事。

I'm just illustrating that to say there's a variety of folks in Colorado and I live near a county line that is significant. All of that to say is that the Weld County Health Department was like trying you know, was saying that like master optional. I was like, well, if the state government says that you have a mask mandate, the counties can't just say like, no. We're not gonna do I'm gonna skip forward to the end of the story. I talked about it on the podcast.

事情就这样结束了。我提过这件事，当时很震惊。两周后，突然有一群陌生人在Instagram上关注我们，然后在那期播客评论区留言说：‘嘿，我很好奇，你后来举报那家健身房了吗？’

That was the end of it. I didn't you know, I talked about it. I was, like, shocked by it. Two weeks later, a bunch of random people suddenly started following us on Instagram and then came to the comment section of that episode. We're like, hey, I'm just curious, did you ever report this gym?

我回复说没有。我手头没有确凿证据，只是那次路过看到。这不是我该管的事，在那里锻炼的人想练就练吧。

And I wrote back and I was like, no. Like, I don't have anything really to substantiate it, to go off of. It was just that one time I walked by. It's not really my business. It's the people who are working out there wanna work out there, then like whatever.

结果他们直接摊牌了：‘有意思，因为你知道……当时发生了明显与此无关的事件，有人向卫生部门举报了他们，导致他们被查封了。’我完全不觉得这事和我们播客有关，因为我没点名，而且听众也不会这么在意。

And then they just unload it. We're like, oh that's interesting because you know you because took down this small the health is like clearly some an unrelated incident occurred at that time where someone did call the health department on them and they got kind of like taken down. And I have no illusions that it was related to our podcast episode because I did not name them and people who listen to this podcast do not care that much.

不，他们根本不知道会有什么后果。

No. Like They really don't know what's gonna be knocking down doors.

没人会在韦尔德县一家汽车修理店附近搜索朗蒙特十字健身房之类的。事情就是这样发生的。

No one's, like, googling Longmont cross the gym near an auto shop in Weld County. Like, that's what happened.

我隐约记得那条评论。对。好吧。我记得那条评论。只是出于好奇。

I kind of remember that comment. Yeah. Okay. I remember that comment. And it was just curious.

只是好奇。哦，我找到你了。

Just curious. Oh, I found you.

而我

And I

我当时想，哦，你不仅仅是好奇。你是冲着我来的。那真的是我在社交媒体上唯一一次被人这样针对，而且

was like, oh, you're not just curious. You are coming for me. It was really the only time I've been come for in that way on social media and

放马过来吧兄弟。是啊。

Come at me bro. Yeah.

放马过来吧兄弟。

Come at me bro.

太搞笑了。

That's so funny.

我现在要去F45健身，不过这两件事完全不相关。那是两年前，两年多前的事了。我再没去过那家健身房，也没接触过那些人。那是一段艰难时期，我们都在经历很多事。

I'm going to f 45 now and then completely unrelated. This was that was you know that was two years ago, two plus years ago. I have not interacted with that gym or those people whatever. It was a it was a tough time. We were all going through a lot of stuff.

没有恶意。我和朋友在这家健身房，所有训练都有时间限制。你在一个站点训练，F45的模式是在不同站点间轮转。可能有9个到甚至25个站点不等。

No hard feelings. My friend and I are at this gym and it's all of the workouts are time limited. So you go you're at a station. The way F45 works is you work through the room in a variety of stations. It's anywhere between like maybe nine up to maybe like even 25 stations.

你有45分钟时间，每次训练配置和间隔都不同。我是说，大体上每次都不一样。我经常思考，如果是CrossFit训练，比如'Fight Gone Bad'，你需要每个间歇都几乎力竭，让神经系统从崩溃边缘恢复，然后再次力竭。这种训练本质上是在模拟拳击比赛中自卫或击败对手。

And you have forty five minutes and you work through it in a different configuration, different set of of intervals every time. That's not I mean, more or less every time. I reflect a lot on the fact that like if this was a CrossFit workout, you know, think about Fight Gone Bad where you are supposed to basically black out every interval, try to bring your nervous system back from the brink in time to then go blackout again. Literally the point of the workout is to simulate getting defending yourself or getting beating someone else up in a boxing match.

你能再说一遍什么是'Fight Gone Bad'吗？就为了

Can you say what Fight Gone Bad is again? Just for

那个...对。'Fight Gone Bad'是CrossFit的一个基准训练，这种基准训练就像是...像是一种测试，

the little Yeah. Gone Bad is a is a CrossFit benchmark workout that benchmark workout is a workout that it's sort of like a like a test that is

反复测试。

A retest, test, retest.

一个标准化、适用于所有人的重复测试。世界上任何人进行'Fight Gone Bad'训练时，其含义对所有人都相同。具体内容是...总共多少轮来着？我马上查一下。三轮，每轮五分钟训练，每轮之间休息一分钟。

A retest, test, retest that is standardized for everyone. And so anybody in the world, if you are doing the Fight Gone Bad workout, it means the same thing for everyone. And so what it is is it's how many rounds is it? I'm gonna look it up real quick. Three rounds, five minutes of work, one minutes of rest between each round.

等等，五分钟训练？

Wait. Five minutes of work?

对。三轮总共十七分钟内完成总次数。即五分钟训练、一分钟休息，循环三次。其目的是模拟一场三回合的拳击比赛。

Yeah. So it's three rounds for a total for total reps in seventeen minutes. So it's five minutes on, one minutes one minute off three times. The point, again, is to simulate, a three round boxing match.

但因为太久没练了。真不敢相信我忘了这个——每分钟是不同的动作对吧？

But and because it's been so long. I can't believe I don't remember this, but it's a different move every minute. Right?

是的。包括药球墙投，我记得还有相扑硬拉高翻。

Yeah. So it's wall balls. I think it's sumo deadlift high pull.

我记得还有推举。

I think push presses were in there.

没错。每分钟对应1、2、3、4、5个动作。每五分钟包含五个不同动作各一分钟：一分钟药球墙投、一分钟相扑高翻、一分钟跳箱、一分钟推举、一分钟划船，然后休息一分钟。

Yeah. So every one, two, three, four, five. Yeah. So each five minutes, it's a it's one minute of five different activities. You have one minute wall balls, one minute sumo high pull, one minute box jump, one minute push press, one minute row, one minute rest.

从头开始。这真的很难，关键在于当你进行到那一分钟划船时，你几乎——我是说真的——完全意识不到周围发生了什么。JK在笑。其实我很容易就达到那种训练状态。但如果对我不利的话，那就，我也不知道了。

Start back over. So it's really hard and the idea is that you by the time by the time you get to that one minute row, you are almost I mean, you're literally like, you're unaware of what's going on around you. JK is laughing. I reached that point in workout really easily actually. So if I got bad for me, it's like, I don't know.

首先，各位，我们得聊聊用一分钟墙球开启训练这件事。到底图什么？如果你没从《Joy of Girls Gone Wide》时期就关注我们，你得知道我和墙球的关系——我恨它们。而且我永远无法释怀的是，墙球目标高度根本不考虑你的身高。

I by like the sec I mean, first of all, guys, let's just talk about starting workout with one minute of wall balls. Absolutely why. If you have not been following us since the days of Joy of Girls Gone Wide, you need to know something about me and wall balls, which is that I hate them. And I am forever deeply offended by the fact that their wall ball target has nothing to do with your height.

不。嗯哼。

No. Mm-mm.

这很可能是我最讨厌CrossFit的一点。有段时间我甚至做了件T恤，上面写着‘不想给你看我的墙球技术，因为每个该死的墙球我都得跳投’，真的就是...

It's my least favorite thing about CrossFit most likely. And yeah, for a while there I had a slogan with with a shirt actually I made that says I'm not ready to show you my wall balls because I have to jump shot every freaking wall ball and it's just

最糟糕了。所以F35大概就，五下吧。

the worst. So So f 35 is, like, five.

是啊，每次都会有人因为墙球话题退出游戏。

Yeah. It's always like we're losing a player to a wall ball tangent.

这真的有种时光倒流的感觉。

This this really feels like going back.

你知道，我有很多很多感受。

You know, I have a lot I have a lot of feelings.

把它带回来。

Bring it back.

所以我最近一直在思考很多。我们一直在讨论和思考F45有多么不同，以及它有时间限制的特点，就像你可以自主选择强度。我经常完成一个循环后会想，我本可以更拼一些。这种不把训练做到中枢神经系统重启就不算完的心态真的很难打破。你懂我的意思吗？

So I've just been thinking a lot. We I've been talking a and thinking a lot about how different f 45 is and the fact that it's time limited, like it's very choose your own intensity. And how I oftentimes will go through like a circuit and think like, I could have gone harder. And just that that mentality is so hard to break of not finishing the workout in a state of central nervous system reboot. You know what I mean?

就像那种你完全不知道周围发生了什么的状态。你只能专注于获取下一口气，努力不呕吐，努力不昏倒。而这正是许多CrossFit训练的目标。

Like, of having that truly like you don't really know what's going on around you. All you can do is focus on just trying to get your next breath. You're trying not to throw up. You're trying not to pass out. And that is the goal in a lot of CrossFit workouts.

但这绝对不是F45的目标。F45更像是让你获得良好的锻炼，但我们不会...介于两者之间...我们过去也经常讨论，当你长期没去健身房后回归，或是经历了重大人生事件、严重伤病后，你的身体已经完全不同了。可能是因为手术、怀孕，或是人生的重大转变，你的个人纪录（PR）已经不再是原来的PR了。你会清零重来，说'好吧，现在是2.0版PR赛季'，但永远回不到人生另一个阶段创下的那些数字了吗？还要用那些PR来要求自己吗？就像我再也不能说'我创PR了'？

And it's really not the goal in f 45. It's sort of like get a good workout in, but like we're not, you Between that and then you know we've also talked a lot in the past about like if you come back to the gym after a long time or a significant life event or a significant injury and ultimately you're in a really different body for whatever reason. Maybe it was a surgery, maybe it was a pregnancy, maybe it was like a big transition in your life, and your PRs are really like no longer your PRs, do you wipe the slate clean and say like, okay, this is now like clear two point o PR season, and I'm never gonna get back to those numbers that I was hitting in a different phase of my life. But do I still hold myself to those PRs? Like, I never get to say I a PR again?

我认为CrossFit的世界就是会让人对强度产生这样的期待。Joy，我知道你也有过类似想法，比如当你经历Graves病时，要放慢节奏真的很难。JK，我很好奇你本人或你的客户是否有这样的经历——当你有这种特别强烈的CrossFit背景后，转做其他运动时，那种心态真的很难摆脱。

And I think being in the CrossFit world just sets you up for the expectation of such intensity. And I know, Joy, like, you have had those similar kind of thoughts, like, when you went through graves and it was really hard to slow down and JK I'm curious if you experiences or have experiences with yourself or your clients like when you have that background that specifically kind of CrossFit super intense background When you then, like, move on to something else, it's so hard to get rid of that mentality.

嗯，我觉得你...总的来说，你描述的情况首先说明——希望你知道你并不孤单，我可以作证。你绝不孤单。现在甚至有整套知名训练课程就是基于'我曾是CrossFit精英运动员，但把自己练垮了/身体承受不了了'的理念设计的。

Well, I think you I I I think you overall, like, described something that, number one, hopefully, you know that you're not alone, and I'm here to cosign. You are not alone. This is I mean, there's entire training programs now, very well known training programs that are built on, hey. I used to be a former CrossFit elite athlete. I burned myself out or my body can't take this anymore.

我现在处于人生的不同阶段。你知道的，随便怎么说都行。现在整个训练行业都是基于这个理念建立的。而且我认为，从我的角度来看，我们应该从我个人出发，不是作为教练，而是作为...我不知道该怎么称呼，我就自称运动员吧，因为我可以随心所欲。

I'm in a different phase of life. You know, insert whatever. You've got entire training businesses that are now built on this. And I think that, you know, from my perspective, me we'll start with, like, me individually, not as the coach, but as the I don't know. I'm gonna call myself an athlete because I can do what I want.

是的，你可以。

Yes. You can.

CrossFit是个...对。

CrossFit was a yeah.

对于那些不...

For those of you not

看不到现场的人，JK正坐在一个从地板到天花板堆满运动装备的房间里，然后他说，我想我是个运动员。

not who can't see this, JK is sitting in front of a room that is floor to ceiling full of athletic gear, and he's like, I guess I'm an athlete.

我是说，这可能是我见过最井然有序的健身房了。也许可以和Jess Gubbins媲美，如果你关注Jess的话。她的健身房就是最整齐的那种。

I mean, it's like the most perfectly organized gym space that I've seen. Maybe Jess Gubbins. Maybe it kind of rivals Jess if you follow Jess. She has, like, the most organized gym.

Amarap T恤。我不想打断你，但必须指出这点。你绝对是个运动员，JK。继续吧。

Amarap T shirt. I didn't want you to interrupt you, but I just needed to call that out. You're definitely an athlete, JK. Go on.

哦，谢谢。我要把这段剪下来。对我来说，CrossFit，你知道吗？还记得Facebook上可以设置感情状态为'一言难尽'吗？我觉得用这个来形容我和CrossFit的关系特别贴切。

Oh, thanks. I'm gonna clip that. CrossFit for for me, you know what? You remember when Facebook would have the relationship status and you could put it's complicated? That would be how I would describe, like, my relationship with CrossFit specifically.

我们暂且不谈文化因素和Greg Glassman的因素，单就这项运动本身而言。我认为这次对话的重点在于理解CrossFit是一项运动。当它真正兴起时，很多人是被他们看到的一些东西吸引的，比如人们展现出的形体美感——这也是吸引我的地方，还有运动表现方面。所以我的初衷是：我想挑战自己突破那些靠个人可能无法达到的极限。

And we'll leave out the cultural piece of it and the Greg Glassman piece of it, just specifically as the the sport itself. And I think that was that's a big part of the conversation here is the understanding that CrossFit is a sport. When it really came to prominence, a lot of people were attracted to it based on some of what they saw, like the aesthetic piece that they saw from people, and this is just something that I was attracted to too and also the performance aspect. And so I think that, you know, where I started was, hey. I wanna be able to push myself to limits that I potentially wouldn't do, on my own.

课程氛围棒极了，那些美好的体验。阶段性突破极限的感觉很好——我强调'阶段性'，就是达到那种几乎要昏厥的临界点。回头想想你会觉得：不敢相信我居然做到了。就是这种成就感。

The class culture was fantastic, like, that good stuff. And it felt good periodically. I I emphasize periodically to push to that limit of, like, where you feel like you're you're literally blacking out. And you look back, and you're like, I cannot believe that I just did that. Like, yes.

我刚完成了一场硬仗。没错。刚做了个七分钟的训练，才十秒钟就让我觉得快吐出来了。

I just did fight on batter. Yes. I just did a seven minute workout that legit made me feel like I was about to lose my lunch, you know, ten seconds into it.

我觉得偶尔我还是会渴望那种强度，但就像蓝月亮一样罕见。比如生活中遇到什么事时，我需要那种宣泄式的释放，而不是每次都期待这种体验。

And I think every once in a while, I do still crave that intensity, but it's more like once in a blue moon. Like, man, something's going on in my life. Like, I need that cathartic release versus that being the expectation every time.

是的，我认为这很关键。CrossFit作为方法论的核心是随时准备应对任何体能挑战，这本是好事。但好事也可能过犹不及——特别是当你每天都要冲击排行榜榜首时。

Yeah. I think I think that's a a big piece of it. So with the base of CrossFit being a methodology that was that's really designed around being able to be ready for any sort of physical challenge at any time, I think what happens is it it can be a good thing. You can also have too much of a good thing. It's every single day when you're trying to be at the top of the leaderboard.

即使你自认为没有竞争心，但在团体课程中保持自己的节奏、不去关注周围也很困难——比如登录系统或把名字写在白板上时，总会看到别人的成绩数据。不过回到重点，这个过渡阶段关键在于找到合适剂量。现在换我作为教练说：只要某种方法能满足你的身心需求，我都不会否定。我现在就有学员同时在参加F45、橙理论、CrossFit等项目来获得满足感。挑战在于——就像你提到的Claire——你会潜意识或刻意地不断想着...

And even if you're someone who doesn't think that you're competitive, it's very difficult, I think, to resign to going at your own pace and kinda, like, have blinders on when you're in a class with other people or you see you know, you're logging in and or putting your name on the whiteboard and you see those different times and all that good stuff. So I think just to get back to the point, though, that transition piece, I think that it's all about kind of finding the right dose because I'm not someone now switch like, put my coach hat on. I'm not someone who will bag on a particular methodology if you feel like it satisfies a particular need, whether it be a physical or mental need. I have a handful of folks right now who do still do things like f 45, orange theory, CrossFit, all that stuff to get that fix in. I think where the challenge comes in is kind of what you referred to, Claire, is subconsciously or maybe even consciously, you're you're constantly thinking of, yeah.

但我以前能做这个或那个，即使你不在排行榜顶端，现在做10个墙球感觉就像过去做100个一样。为什么现在会这样？我认为关键在于找到适合你的有效剂量——无论是身体还是精神上真正需要的刺激强度，并意识到过去占训练计划80%的内容，现在可能只需要20%，同时明白生活中还有其他更重要的事情。我不确定这样说是否对你有帮助。

But I used to be able to do this or I used to be able to do that, or I used to you know, even if you weren't, like, at the top of the leaderboard, it's, man, 10 wall balls feels like what a 100 used to feel like. So why is that the case right now and all these other things? So I think it's really more about finding the the effective dose that gives you what you need, like the stimulus that you really need physically and or mentally, and then understanding that maybe it used to be 80% of your training program before. Now maybe you just need 20% of it to be your training program and then realize that you do have other things that are pretty important that are more important to you. So I don't I'm not sure if that even helped from it.

不，我觉得你说得对。这是个很好的总结——首先承认这件事本身很复杂，其次那种高强度训练某种程度上...我们直说吧，就是很过瘾。

No. I think you're right. I think that's a good summary of, like, a way to think about it that acknowledges that, like, first of all, it is complicated. Second of all, it's sometimes that intensity is still kind of I mean, let's just call it. It's fun.

达到那种状态很有趣，偶尔体验那种训练后双手发抖地回到车里的感觉确实很刺激。这就是我们如此热爱CrossFit的原因。

It's fun to get to that point. It's fun to have it work like that like that every once in a while to, you know, get back in your car with your hands shaking. It it is fun to have that feeling. And that's why we all love CrossFit so much.

因为...还有就是大家一起训练的感觉。

It's because, like And also that, like, doing it together.

没错，完全同意。

Yeah. Totally.

就像你们在一个团队里，共同经历着...

Like, you're you're in a group, like a shared

痛苦。完全正确。共同承受磨难。说真的，就是这样。

pain. Totally. Shared suffering. Honestly, true. Like

我们做了这件事，它就把你们联系在一起。这种联系是因为，记得那时候CrossFit才刚刚进入大众视野，如果你穿着CrossFit的T恤——我记得我去夏威夷时第一次穿健身T恤，上面印着CrossFit——人们会在机场拦住我问‘你也练CrossFit？’。现在回想起来，这种氛围确实有点邪教般的狂热。

Of, like, we did this, and it bonds you. It bonds you because you like it's remember that whole thing of like before like when CrossFit was like barely breaking into the zeitgeist, if you had a CrossFit shirt on, I remember going to Hawaii and having my first gym shirt and that was like, and it said CrossFit on it. People were stopping me at the airport being like, you do CrossFit? I mean, it was so like this weird now you look back and like, it's kind of culty.

那时候我们总开玩笑说，你去商店会看到——当时除非是CrossFit爱好者，否则根本没人穿锐步。我们总说‘他们知道吗？’这成了我们的内部梗。

Always just talk about, like, you'd go to the store and you'd see you know, at that time, like, no one was wearing Reeboks unless they were CrossFitters. And you would go to the store and he'd be like, our our, like, joke we always have is like, they know?

你知道吗？他们知道吗？对，你了解CrossFit那群人吗？

Do you know? Do they know? Yeah. Do you know about the CrossFitters?

如果你看到他们没穿标志性服装，就会想‘哦，是CrossFit的人’。根据我的亲身经历和客户反馈，最困难的事情莫过于——用他们的话说——‘和CrossFit健身房分手’。其实更多是关于人和文化，特别是当他们与某位教练关系很好时。但最终他们会意识到身体恢复不佳，这开始影响生活的其他方面。

If you see them with no bulls on, you're like, oh, okay. CrossFitters. That's what what for many folks, based on my personal experience and also things that I've I've talked to my clients about, one of the most difficult things has been no longer, you know, if they were breaking, quote, unquote, breaking up with their CrossFit box or whatever it was. It was more about the people and culture, especially if they had a great relationship with a particular coach and things like that. But they just got to a point where they just realized, like, their body was not not recovering very well, and it was starting to seep into other areas of their life.

归根结底，我认为关键在于：首先要明白这仍然可以是你生活的一部分。它在优先级中排第几？能否接受浅尝辄止，而不是让它主宰生活或占据过高优先级？我必须承认这并不容易——就像教练上课时说‘这是训练目标，但如果需要调整或替代动作就告诉我’，即便如此...

So I still go back to, at the end of the day, I think it's gonna be about, okay, getting an understanding for this can still be something that's a part of your life. Where does it rank in the order of priority and getting to a point where you're okay with dabbling versus, like, it runs it runs your life or it's super high up on the priority list. And I wanna acknowledge that it's also not easy. It's not as easy just to say, like, even when a coach is coaching a class and says, like, you know, okay. So here's what's going on.

开口请求仍然需要勇气。成为那个说‘我膝盖/肩膀不舒服’、‘三个月了还是做不了引体向上’的人，难免会产生某种焦虑感。

Here's the intended stimulus. But, hey. If you need to modify or if you need a sub, just let me know. There's still a level of, you know, dare I say, like, anxiety that comes with asking, like like, being the one person to be like, hey. You know, my knee is kinda bothering me or my shoulder's kinda bothering me, and I can't do you know, it's been three months, and I still can't do pull ups and stuff like that.

这就回到了健身房的文化本质上。有些场馆...

So it's full circle that goes back to the type of culture that your box is. There's some that

是

are

我非常擅长了解每个人和这些事。但我要直说，克莱尔。这大概是我面对像F45、橙理论这类课程时最大的挑战。没错，我要点名这些课程。我有客户就在上这些课。

fantastic at knowing, like, each person and all that stuff. But that I'll be straight up with you, Claire. Like, that's kind of my biggest challenge when it comes to things like f 45, Orange Theory, and all of those things. Like, yes, I'm gonna call them out. I have clients who do them.

我有朋友经营这类加盟店。我最大的挑战在于人们的期望值，以及他们为实现目标所采取的行动。

I have friends who own franchises and things like that. My biggest challenge comes with people's expectations and then the the things that they're doing in order to get there.

详细说说。你这话是什么意思？

Say more about that. What do you mean by that?

好的。在我从事的这个行业里，大多数合作对象基本可以分为两类。第一类以形体美为首要目标——他们想要特定体型，并且明白自己不愿用不健康的方式达成。所以我们不讨论兴奋剂这类手段。

Yeah. So in the business that I'm I'm in, the majority of the people that I'm working with, pretty much, let's say, pretty much fall into two camps. The priority is on, aesthetics. So they want to they want a certain physique, and they and they come with an understanding of they're not willing to do unhealthy things to get there. So we're not talking, like, performance enhancing drugs and stuff like that.

他们要么想看起来更好，要么想感觉更好。而高强度训练——这是我的坚定立场——与这些目标并不一致。如果你的目标是感觉棒极了、恢复良好、能自如地度过余生或当天，还能按你想要的方式运动，同时你还有特定肌肉群或体型的塑造需求，那么像CrossFit这类运动并不适合。虽然我讨厌当扫兴的人，但这就是我的观点。

But they they want to look better and or they want to feel better. And really high intensity pieces do not a lot this is my hard stance. They do not align with with that goal. So if you have a goal of feeling fantastic, like recovering well, being able to live the rest of your life or live the rest of your day and be able to move the way you wanna move, and also you have particular physicals where you wanna develop specific types of muscle, a specific type of physique, then a sport like CrossFit is not is not built for that. And I I hate hate if I'm like the Daryl Downer here, but that's that's just my that's my piece that doesn't align with that.

真正匹配的是针对性肌肉训练，偶尔穿插高强度间歇，但要通过科学系统的方法确保恢复能力。我认为健身最大的挑战之一就是：人们常以训练后的痛苦程度来判断效果，而非以恢复能力来衡量。如果你每周五六天进行那种高强度训练，第二天股四头肌还在因为周一150个药球深蹲而酸痛，周二又要做战损训练或大重量后蹲计划——这两者根本不协调。

What aligns with that is something that is very targeted muscle building pieces, bouts of intensity here and there, but in a smart and methodical way that allows you to recover. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges when it comes to fitness is a lot of times people judge the effectiveness of a workout with how terrible they feel after the workout versus their ability to recover from that workout so that they can train again. So if you're doing something like that five, six days a week, that level of high intensity and you're going into the next workout still, like, with your quads screaming because you did Karen, like, a 150 wall balls on Monday. And then on Tuesday, you're doing, like, fight gone bad or some or some sort of heavy, like, back squat cycle. Those two things, like, they they don't align.

嗯。这正好引出了我们想讨论的话题——Joy，那个叫什么来着？免疫什么来着？

Mhmm. That leads us really well into the, the conversation we wanted to have around what is it called again, Joy? The immunity something?

对，免疫改变。我简单介绍一下背景，因为我发过这个。JK和我经常互相分享播客或我们认为对方会喜欢的内容，无论是关于坎耶还是行为改变。这期节目来自布芮尼·布朗的《敢于领导》播客。

Yeah. Immunity change. I'll give a really quick background because, I sent this. JK and I are often sending, like, podcasts or things that we think one another would like, in terms of just, I don't know, pop culture, whether it be Kanye or behavior change. And so this episode was on Brene Brown's Dare to Lead podcast.

这期节目发布于11月21日，分上下两集，标题是《布芮尼与丽莎·莱希谈免疫改变》。我听完后深受触动，众所周知我是治疗师，整天与人打交道。

The episode was posted on November 21. It's a two part episode if you wanna go listen to it. It's called Brene with Lisa Leahy on immunity to change. And when I listened to this episode, the reason I was really kind of like taken by it is obviously everybody knows I'm a therapist. I work with a lot of people all the time.

JK你也从事行为改变工作。当我们看到人们挣扎于改变行为时——特别是新年决心季将至——我在咨询中常遇到因目标失败而产生的羞耻感。这也是我不喜欢SMART目标的原因，总觉得哪里不对劲。听完这期节目后我想读这本书，不过今天我们先做个基础讨论。

And I think JK, you work with people too with behavior change. And when we see people struggling with changing behaviors, and I think this is also timely with New Year's resolutions coming up, I've always had this issue when I when I'm counseling people is this shame that comes with the fact that they failed at a goal. And maybe this is why I also do not like SMART goals. There's always been something that just doesn't sit well with me. And so when I listened to this episode and I want to read this book, but, we'll talk, consider this a very like elementary discussion around it.

建议大家去听原节目，我们只是聊聊初步感受。配套还有个工作表想讨论，算是这本书的导读。若想深入研究，这真是很棒的内容。最打动我的是它填补了我对传统目标设定观点的不满——比如社交媒体常说的'不够渴望就是不够重要'，或'失败就该感到羞耻'这类论调。

So please go listen to the episode. We're just kind of riffing off our initial feelings. And there's also a worksheet that I kind of want to talk about too that goes along with the discussion and just kind of like a one on one about the book. And then if you want to dive deeper into it, I think it's amazing work. But what struck me first and foremost was just this, like, it kind of filled in the gaps of why I don't like the traditional viewpoints of goal setting and behavior change, which is just like kind of the rhetoric we see on social media sometimes is like, if you don't want it bad enough, it must not be important to you, or you have to really want it to be successful at it, or there's like shame attached to it if you don't meet a goal.

更深层的讨论关乎设定目标后，识别那些与之相悖的行为。这是背景介绍。我让JK和Claire看了工作表，或许我们可以聊聊各自想改变的目标及阻碍。JK，你有想讨论的具体目标吗？或听完有什么想说的？

And it's just, the larger discussion has so much to do with setting the goal and then identifying the behaviors that you're doing that kind of go against it. So let's that's like the intro to it. But I asked j j k and Claire to kinda, like, look over the worksheet, and maybe we could kinda talk through our own goals of, like, what we personally are looking at changing and why we don't do it. J k, did you find one that you found was, like, something you wanted to talk about? Or do you have anything like initially when you were listening to that that you wanna say?

我想补充说明一下：她称之为'元旦目标型'——这是我们大多数人唯一的设定目标模式：选个日子，不顾一切追求目标，却不理解或不允许偏离预设路径。我们都干过这种事：'周一我要开始做XYZ，具体计划如下...'

I wanna really quickly input another like a little bit more into the description of what this is because the piece for me that really resonated that I felt like explained really well what she was trying to change about or not change, but address about the goal structure that most of us have is she called it, like, the New Year's Day goal type. Like, that this is it's really the only model for goal setting that most of us have, where it's like, you pick a day and you throw everything you have behind this goal without really understanding or without really allowing for deviation from the path that you think you should be on. And, you know, I think we have all done that where we say, On Monday, I'm starting x y z thing. Here's exactly how it's gonna look. Here are the parameters.

具体来说是这样的。这些就是那些行为表现。没错。你设定了一个SMART目标，制作了工作表。

Here's what that means. Here are those behaviors. Yeah. You set a SMART goal. You make your worksheet.

你打印出75天挑战的小门图表，或者买下Whole30饮食法的书，诸如此类。这些程序也都是这样设计的——固定时间段、固定规则，你只需要‘按规则行事’就行。能有多难呢？无论这些规则来自外部项目还是你自己制定的。

You print out your 75 hard little door chart, you know, whatever the case may be. You buy your whole 30 book, like, you name it. Those programs are also set up that way where it's like a set amount of time, a set amount of rules, and, you know, all you have to do quote unquote is like play by the rules for that period of time. What could be so hard? Whether they're the rules of an external program or whether the rules that you've come up with for whatever reason.

我听这期节目时意识到：对，这就是那个模式。这其实也说明了一个事实——它完全依赖你内在的动机，而且是特定类型的内在动机。可能对某些人有效。她提到心脏病患者的研究案例——

And I when I was listening to this episode, I was realizing like, yeah, that is the model. And so really, this also addresses the fact that, like, that relies on absolutely nothing except for your own internal motivation. It's a specific type of internal motivation. And, yeah, that might work for some people. And she references the study that that like heart patients, if you if you look at heart patients

‘改变或死亡’模式。

The change or die model.

‘改变或死亡’。比如你必须改变生活中这三件事，否则就会死。如果用传统目标设定理论来看，这个模式具备所有要素：明确的方向、

Change your die. Who are like, you have to change these three things about your life. Otherwise, you are going to die. You know, if you think about those in, like, the traditional setting of of, like, research around setting goals and achieving them, that has all the things. It has clear directions.

强烈的动机、清晰的计划，以及不执行的后果。但即便如此，她说实际只有六分之一的人会做出必要改变。也许有人能仅靠自我激励硬撑过去——那可能就是六分之一中的那个人——但你不能说其他人就是懒惰。她深入剖析了我们对未能达成目标者的偏见。

It has a high motivator. It has a you know, like, here is your plan, and here's what's gonna happen if you don't do it. And still only what did she say? Like, one out of six will actually make those needed changes. And so, you know, it's like, yeah, maybe there are some of us out there who can survive on self motivation alone and survive on just muscling through it but and maybe that is that one person out of six but everyone else like you can't say that these people are just lazy and like then she really goes into the factors of the assumptions we make about people who can't reach their goals.

这也是我特别欣赏的部分——那些说辞：这些人懒惰、愚蠢、不够在乎、缺乏动力...

And that was something else I love where it's like, those people are lazy. They're stupid. They don't care enough. They, you know, just like are they are not motivated. They

你不够渴望。

You don't want it enough.

你不够专注。你不够渴望。就像有人告诉你，如果不做出这些改变，你就会死。这不是因为你缺乏动力，也不是因为你懒惰。

You're not dedicated. You don't want it enough. And it's like, if you're being told that if you don't make these changes, you're gonna die. It's not that you're not motivated. It's not that you're lazy.

也不是因为你愚蠢。你知道，肯定还有其他原因。所以我想稍微深入探讨一下，

It's not that you're stupid. You know, like, there's gotta be something else going on. So I just wanted to bring a little bit more of that,

这真的很有帮助。

That's really helpful.

确实如此。因为这些正是我觉得非常引人深思的地方——为什么这会成为一个话题？它的根源是什么？为什么我们要开始审视另一种目标设定模式？目标设定其实是对她所做之事的一种极度简化的描述。但我想回到你刚才说的，JK，人们带着具体目标而来，比如去F45健身为了塑形，但现实是，嘿。

The con yeah. And because that was what those are things that I found really fascinating of, why is this even a topic and where is this coming from and, like, why do we wanna start looking at a different model of goal setting? And, I mean, goal setting is a really simplified version of or a really simplified way to describe what she's doing here. But I think and, you know, to just go back even to what you were just saying, JK, of, like, people come with these specific goals, and then they try to go to F 45 to get shredded. And it's like, hey.

F45可能是很棒的训练。你还能从中获得其他东西，比如社群感。我去是因为不想费心安排训练。但如果你是为了塑形而去，那目标很难实现。

F 45 could be a great workout. You could be getting other things from that. You could be getting community. I go because I don't wanna have to think about my workouts. And, you know, like but if you're going there to get shredded, it's not gonna happen.

然后你会因为目标未达成而自责。

And then you're gonna beat yourself up because it's not happening.

一开始蕾妮说我们都想改变，但没人愿意真正转变。这其实是一个更大讨论的一部分，只是看待问题的一种角度。JK，你第一次听这段时有什么反应？

It starts out with Renee saying we all want to transform, but nobody wants to change. It just again, this is a this is a part of a larger discussion. This is one way of looking at it. But, JK, what were your reactions when you first were listening to this?

我以前以某种形式听过类似的内容，但这是第一次从有科学依据、研究支持的角度来听。我在播客和我们之前的几次谈话中分享过，我从小在非常结构化的环境中长大，父母和祖父母早在这些概念流行前就在做行为改变、习惯培养和性格塑造的事情。最让我感兴趣的是——这也是我发信息跟你提到的——这些内容对我来说并不新鲜。

I've I've listened to stuff like this before in some, you know, some way, shape, or form, like some other format. I would say this is probably the first time that I've listened to it from an educated science backed standpoint, research backed standpoint. You know, I've I've shared, I think, on my podcast before and maybe on the few conversations that we've had too. I have a very a very, like, structured upbringing where my parents and my grandparents were doing, like, behavior change and habit change stuff and character building stuff before that was even, like, a thing. What was very interesting to me was and I think that's that's something that I sent you the message about was not necessarily something new.

这就像是'哦太好了，看来我没疯'。因为在我的教练工作中，最棘手的一点就是——我很坦诚地说——作为一个真正关心如何让客户可持续获得成果的教练，你很清楚问题的解决方案并不在于某种特定的训练方式。

It's one of those, oh, okay. So thank god. I'd I'm not crazy. Like, this because one of the things that that I see very, very routinely, and this and I'll be very, very transparent here. One of the toughest things about the business that I'm in as a coach and what I would think is a coach who actually cares about getting people the results that they're looking for in a sustainable way is that at the end of the day, you know that the the fix or the solution is not specifically this type of workout.

你知道让人无法达成目标的症结不在于某种特定的饮食方式，这些都只是工具。正如这个练习所揭示的，真正需要解决的可能是一些更深层的基础性问题——那些需要你开始逐步攻克的核心问题。所以我非常喜欢这个内容，因为它提供了一个组织有序、有研究支撑的框架。

You know that the fix or the solution that's not getting the person to where they wanna be is not specifically this type of, like, eating a certain way of eating. Those are particular tools. At the foundation of it, though, as this whole exercise speaks to, there are potentially things that aren't being dealt with that are the crux. Like, they're the foundation of what actually needs to start like, you gotta start chipping away at to make this thing happen. So, for me, like, I really, really dug this because I thought it was a very nice organized and structured research backed way.

而且这是布芮尼·布朗的节目，我从不掩饰对她的喜爱。我喜欢她介绍节目的方式——就像她采访詹姆斯·克利尔时那样，她会说'我邀请他们来就是为了进行这场对话'，那种'哎呀被你们发现了'的感觉特别可爱。

And, you know, it's Brene Brown, and I I I hold I don't hold back on my affection for Brene Brown because what I love about her, I almost like, I I kinda wonder if you know how she introduces episodes sometimes? She did this when she had James Clear on too. How she introduces episodes as like, you know, I brought them on, and it's very endearing the way she does it. I brought them on so we could have this conversation. And it's almost like this, oh, shucks, y'all.

我没想到的是，听着听着这几乎变成了我的心理治疗环节。她作为采访者的高超之处就在于——开场30秒后她就说'好吧，现在让我用自己来举例'。这期节目让我赞不绝口，因为她谈到的问题实在太精准了。

What I didn't expect is that I was going to be going through almost like, you know, you guys are I didn't realize you were it was gonna be a therapy session for me. And I'm like, are you joking? Because that's basically what makes this what makes her a fantastic interviewer is because I think maybe about thirty seconds into it, she's like, okay. Now let me go ahead and use myself as an example here. I I cannot rave about this episode enough because even the problem that she talks about is so spot on.

这个'对改变的免疫'练习最有趣的是，它以一种有益的方式鼓励你审视自己而不自我指责。我们很多工作就是试图通过'后门'方式让人明白：他们确实能掌控某些事，可以做出改变。人们常被'别人坚持了30天或半年计划就成功了'这样的比较困住。

And it's I think that it was very interesting just because this immunity to change exercise, it really in a in a helpful way encourages you to look in the mirror without blaming yourself. And I think that it was very interesting just how how it's done. And that's a lot of the work that we try to do is try to show someone almost like in a a backdoor sort of way that they do have they have control over some things. They can do some things. I think what often is holding people back is like, well, I'm looking at this person that was able to follow this thirty day or six month plan, they got these results.

或者说，这个人只是在说忍一忍就过去了，你其实没那么渴望改变。我曾分享过的一个重大观念转变就是：我以前也认为，如果你没有真正为某件事付出努力，那是因为你不够想要。但后来我更倾向于认为，这只是因为你还没触底——你必须真正跌到谷底才行。这又涉及到我们之前谈到的另一个话题，就是你所说的'改变的阈值'。

Or, you know, this person is just saying suck it up, and you don't want it bad enough. And one of the things that I had shared with you is one of the biggest perspective changes I ever had was this big shift into, I was one of those people who used to think, well, if you are not really putting, like, really putting in the effort towards something, it's because you don't want it bad enough. And really, I looked at it more as like, you just haven't hit your rock bottom yet. Like, you really gotta hit your rock bottom. And this was another, you know, not to go off in another tangent, but this was another piece of the conversation where it's like what I think you you called, like, the threshold for change.

我看到某些人时会想：如果我经历他们一半的处境，早就觉得无可挽回了，会不惜一切代价逃离。但有些人就是还没到那个临界点。所以我认为这场对话另一个关键点是：这迫使你成为主导进程的人，而不是等待别人替你判断。

I will look at some people and be like, if I was dealing with half of what you're dealing with right now, I would already been like, that train has left the station. I'm ready to go. Like, I will I will do whatever it takes to not be there. But some people are just not at that particular point. And so I think that's an important piece of this conversation too is from the out, this forces you to really be the person who's driving the process versus, like, you're waiting for somebody else to identify for you.

就像有人说'你已经触底了'，但其实并没有——'你觉得我触底了？实际上远没有'。

Like, You are at rock bottom. It's like, no. I I you think I'm at rock bottom, but I'm actually not.

我想补充的是，你并不必须触底才能改变，这不该是前提条件。也许你不必等到走投无路的地步。这些提问的深意在于挖掘动机因素：为什么要改变、改变什么，而不一定是事情恶化到'不改变就完蛋'的程度。

I would add that, like, you don't have to be at rock bottom. Like, that should that that's not a pre qualifier either. Right? That, like, maybe you don't have to get to a point where you feel like, I have no other choice. And I think that goes into sort of what some of these questions that they ask are around the, like, really getting at the motivating factors of what it is of why you want to make a change, what the change is, and not necessarily that things have gone so far that you have to you know it's not necessarily a change or die method model for everything.

并非因为触底就非得现在改变。我同意有时我们会听到别人的处境就想：这你都能忍？换作是我绝对想改变。但他们就是没到那个阶段。

It's not like you're at your rock bottom and so you have to change now. I agree with you that sometimes you know we all have sometimes you'll at someone and think like I mean, not look at someone, but you'll hear someone circumstance and think like, how are you okay with this? Don't you wanna change that? Like, if I were in your shoes, I would really wanna change that. And that's just not where they're at.

好吧，看来我们对生活该有的样子有不同标准。不过JK，有意思的是你第一反应总是'必须让情况足够糟糕'——有些人确实需要这样才会想改变。

And it's like, okay. Well, I guess this is, you know, we have different versions of what we would like that to look like in our life. But I think that it's also interesting, JK, that your mind does immediately go to, like, well, you have to let it get bad enough. Some people like, people need to let it get bad enough before they wanna change.

是啊，我只是...坦白说我的真实想法。

Yeah. I mean, I I mean, I'm just I'm being transparent here.

不，我并不是说这是件坏事。我只是觉得有趣，这是我们思维方式上的差异。

No. I am I I'm not I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just think it's interesting that's a difference in the way that we think about it.

我认为这也是一个真正投入帮助他人达成既定目标者的视角。我觉得这才是关键。你知道，我生命中曾有一段时间，那是我的一大缺点，一个大问题，因为我就像那种人——为什么我比你更执着于完成这件事？那是个很不健康的状态，因为感觉就像...

I think also it's the perspective of someone who is truly bought into, I want to help you get to what you said your stated goal was. I think that's the thing. And that that you know, the the there were there was a time in my life where that was, like, a big fault that I had, like, a big issue because I would be, like, one of those people who was like, why am I more bought into getting this done than you are? And that was not a very healthy place to be because I feel like, yo.

不过我想我们都能理解那种感受。

I think we can all relate to that, though.

是的。所以我觉得这是那种当你深入某件事时的情况，比如这个特定练习，首先的问题就是：你能做出什么最有力量的改变来改善（填空）？从一开始就是这样，好吧。

Yeah. So I think it's it's one of those things where it's like you get into something and, you know, with this particular exercise, you know, one of the first things is like, okay. Well, what's what's the single most powerful change that you could make to improve? Fill in the blank here. Just even from the jump, it's like, okay.

那么关键是什么？他们做得很好，用两集节目——可能剪辑得也很棒——就把'改造我的房子'这类内容完整呈现了。而我可能花整整一周时间只讨论第一个问题：什么是最有力量的改变。因为我认为的最有力改变，未必真的是最有力量的改变。

Well, what's the one thing? You could spend you know, they did a great job of within two episodes, probably very well edited too. Like, two episodes, like, getting wrapping it up kind of in a pretty decent way, fix my house sort of episode that all fits nicely. I could easily spend one week on just box number one with what's the single most powerful change. Because what I think might be the single most powerful change may not actually be the single most powerful change.

而且这也迫使你非常诚实。因为我认为，如果我们...（我会附上工作表链接），我强烈建议你甚至可以在听我们讨论前先听听那几期节目。它一开始就问：你想要什么目标？选择一个能改变你人生的目标。

But and it also forces you to be very honest. It because I think, you know, if we are and I'll post the link with the work sheet. I highly recommend you listen to these episodes maybe before you even listen to our discussion. But it just starts with, like, what goal do you want? Like, choose a goal that would make a big difference in your life.

所以我认为它迫使你诚实地面对：不是你觉得自己想要的，而是你真正想要的是什么？

And so I think it forces you to be honest of, like, not what you think you want. Like, what do you truly want?

对，就是那个部分。因为我觉得还存在一个真相时刻——可能你写下的第一件事就像在追问后续问题。所以再次回到这个话题，某种程度上是以一种未经训练的方式。我说‘未经训练’是因为我没有接受过这方面的专业培训。

Yeah. That that part. Because I think there's also that moment of of truth where maybe even the first thing that you write down, it's like asking that follow-up question. So, again, going back to this is some of in an in an uneducated way. I'm gonna say uneducated just because I'm not, like, classically trained in this.

只是某种程度上，这甚至是最初对话的一部分，当有人说‘嗯，这就是我的目标’时，我会追问‘那帮我理解为什么这是你的目标’。就像‘五个为什么’那样——为什么这对你很重要？

It's just in a certain way, this is even one of the parts of the initial conversation where somebody says like, yeah. Well, this is my goal. And so I'll ask, well, help me understand why that's your goal. So, you know, it's like the five whys or whatnot. So why does that matter to you?

所以我的目标是达到某种特定体型，或者想以特定方式运动。好吧，为什么这对你很重要？随着深入探讨，你会逐渐发现一些东西。Joy，我们之前在你上我播客时就聊过这个，就是关于心理健康与健身的交叉点。

So my goal is to be at this particular type of physique or I wanna move this particular way. Okay. Well, why is that important to you? And then as you start digging a bit deeper, you start uncovering some things. And this is something that, you know, Joy, you and I talked about when you came on my podcast with the, like, that kind of that cross section of mental health and fitness.

很多时候我会说：听着，JK，你得守好本分。因为很多事物背后的‘为什么’可能根植于与健康健身完全无关的东西。所以我觉得最初这个环节超级重要——比如：你为什么选择那个特定目标？

Many times, where I I am like, listen. JK, you gotta stay in your lane here is because many times the why behind something, it can be deeply rooted in something that's that has nothing to do with health and fitness. So I think that initial part is is super important. Like, okay. Well, why did you pick that particular goal?

为什么那个目标对你如此重要？

Why does that goal matter so much to you?

哦，我想稍微深入解释下我们讨论的方法论。虽然我们一直在评论它，但还没真正说明白。基本上这个方法会带你经历四个步骤——在表格里分四栏，她称之为第一栏到第四栏。首先是明确你要做什么，以及需要改变什么来实现目标。就是‘你的目标是什么？需要做出哪些改变？’在节目里她一直强调这点。

Oh, I just wanna dive in a little bit into explaining the methodology that we are that we're talking about because I think we're commenting on what it is, but we haven't really explained it yet. So basically, this takes you through four different I mean, they're columns on a worksheet, so she refers them as, you know, column one, column two, column three, column four. But really four steps where you start out by identifying what it is you're trying to do and what you would need to change in order to reach that goal. So it's what is your goal and what do you need to do differently? And then on the episode, she kept really pushing of like, okay.

让我们深入剖析需要做出的改变，将其分解到最基础的行动形式。然后列出你正在做或没做的、与目标相悖的事情。写下所有阻碍你做出必要改变的行为或缺失项。第三栏我认为是最偏离传统方法描述的环节——因为明确目标和障碍都是很基础的目标设定步骤。

Let's get down to the nitty gritty of like what you need to do differently and strip it down to its most basic form of what that action would be. And then you go into what are you doing or not doing that is it's going against what that goal is. And so you write down everything, all the behaviors that you have or the things that you're not doing that are keeping you from doing the thing that you need to do differently. And then you go and I think this third column is really where things deviate the most from the way that I've heard this process described in the past. Because like, yeah, figuring out what you wanna do and figuring out what's holding you back, those are pretty basic goal setting practices.

但她做的第三件事是问：好吧，你有哪些隐藏的竞争性承诺？本质上是在询问，你对自己或现状持有的哪些其他信念与第一栏的目标相冲突？她在节目开场时还特别说明，第三栏的内容注定会与第一栏的目标存在矛盾，形成直接竞争关系。比如，借用布芮尼的例子（我不想重复整期内容）...

But the third thing that she does is she says, okay. What are your hidden competing commitments? Basically asking, like, what other beliefs you hold about yourself, about the situation that are at odds with the thing in column one? And she actually prefaces it in episode by saying, like, by definition, these things in column three will be at odds with, in direct competition with, intention with the things in column one. So for example, you might I mean, Brene's example, I don't wanna, like, repeat the whole episode.

举例来说，如果你的目标是减重10磅（我们都知道这个目标很讨厌，这里仅作示例）。但你可能突然意识到自己有个根深蒂固的信念：我绝不愿意节食。你觉得节食会束缚我，我不想被规定该怎么吃东西。

But for example, if your goal is to lose 10 pounds. Right? We all hate that goal, I'm just gonna use it for way of example here. But you realize like a really deeply held belief about myself is that I am not I do not want to be on a diet. And you know diets hold me back, and I don't want to be told how to eat.

我不愿让别人指挥我做事。这种例子中，你可能没意识到'不愿受人摆布'这个想法正在阻碍你执行营养计划。如果只停留在前两步，你或许只会想到：我的目标是制定营养计划，但阻碍行为是难以坚持备餐——仅此而已。

Don't want someone else telling me what to do. Now you're realizing you know it's like that type of example where you might not think you may not realize like oh I don't want someone to tell me what to do and therefore that's holding you back from following a nutrition plan. You might not notice that if all you do is say, okay, I'm gonna make my goal and what I need to do differently is follow a nutrition plan. The behaviors that go against my goal are that I have a hard time meal planning. Like that might be all that comes up in those first two steps.

因此第三步要更深入：是否存在其他信念或处境与首要目标根本冲突？而第四步则是需要破除的重大假设。在继续讨论前，我想先解析这个方法论的特别之处——这与我们2002年从《17岁》杂志学到的目标设定法截然不同。

So then getting deeper in that third step of like, are the other beliefs that I hold or circumstances that I'm in that really are at odds with that first thing? And then the fourth one is the other, like, big assumptions that need to be made. So I just wanted to get into a little bit what the methodology was before we keep commenting so people can see this is how this differs from maybe what we might have learned how to how we might have learned how to set goals from, like, a '17 magazine in 02/2002.

不就是SMART原则嘛。不过说真的，我看了眼时间发现——哇，这个话题简直能聊到年底，毕竟现在正值新年决心季。但我想说的是，光是选定目标就够难了。我研究时发现自己连想改变什么都难以确定...

Just the SMART goals. But, JK, the the thing that I wanted to comment about really quick, and I'm looking at the time, and I'm like, wow. We could probably do we should just do the rest of the year about this, since we're running into the New Year's resolution time. But, around how even just picking a goal. Because when I was looking at this, I had a really hard I haven't really identified a goal of what I want to change.

不过我很认同它说的：要问自己真正在意什么，是内心极度渴望的改变，而非你认为'应该'做的事。也可以问问朋友觉得你需要改变什么，借助外部视角。这很有意思。克莱尔或JK，你们有什么特别想改变的吗？

But I liked what it says too of like, ask what's really important to you, like something you really, really want to change. Like, you really have to want it, not what you think you should do. Maybe ask your friends what they see you needing to change or wanting or, like, kind of, like, checking in with, like, those outside people too. And I think that's really fascinating. But has anyone, Claire or JK, like, do you have anything that you were like, yeah.

我真的很想有所改变。想实践这个方法，但我现在连明确目标都困难——也许是心理抗拒，总之还没准备好。

I really wanna change. Like, I wanna kind of apply this because I I'm having a hard time even, like, getting solid about and maybe it's like a resistance, but I'm I'm not there yet.

是的。对我来说，这绝对是我改进目标中的一项。我正在看的这份工作表，我喜欢它，因为它提出了一个帮助我理解的问题类型。对我来说，我想要改善的一点就是与孩子们共度更多优质时光。这是个很快就能想到的目标。

Yeah. For me, one of the the things that definitely comes up on the my improvement goal. So the the worksheet that I'm looking at, on that one, I like that I like it because it asks kind of a question, kind of the help me understand type question. So for me, it would be, one of the things that I wanna improve is more quality time with my kids. That's a pretty quick one that comes up.

对于这一点，我感到非常坚定，这是一个真正发自内心的目标，不是基于任何外部期望，完全是我对自己的要求。毫无疑问就是要多花优质时间陪伴孩子。

And that one I feel very solid about as far as, like, that is a legit internal goal, not based on any expectation other than what I've got for myself for me. It would definitely be spend more quality time with kids.

当她进行评分时，比如从1到5分。对吧？假设这绝对是5分。也就是说，这对你非常重要。

When she ranks it, like, she ranks it from, like, a one to five. Right? The assumption is, like, that's definitely a five. Like, it's very important to you.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

你有没有更进一步考虑过那些与这个目标相冲突的事情？

Have you taken it a step further yet of, like, the competing things that are going against that goal?

是的。感觉就像我们正在窥探我的...

Yeah. It's like we're we're peeking into my

没错。请继续。我们基本上就是想让你在播客上读读你的日记。

Yeah. Please. We're basically just trying to get you to read your journal on the podcast at the

把你们送走，这样谢伊和我就不用自己讨论这件事了。

end you on so that Shea and I didn't have to talk about it on our own selves.

是的。那些违背目标的行为。其中一个澄清问题是：问问自己，是什么行为（做或不做）最阻碍我实现目标？一个行为就是我没有真正规划出固定时间，比如明确这段时间就是用来高质量陪伴孩子的，无论是特定活动还是单纯闲逛、无所事事那种。所以，是的，这是个问题。

Yeah. So behaviors that go against, that goal. So one of the clarifying questions it says is ask yourself, what's the thing I do or don't do that most gets in the way of achieving my goal? One of the behaviors would be that I don't I don't have set time that I truly structure into, hey, this time is time that I'm going to really build in quality time with my kids, whether it be a specific activity or whether it be just hanging out doing, quote unquote, nothing, like that sort of a thing. So, yeah, that would be a thing.

工作因素也会介入其中。这也是违背我目标的行为。比如当我有二十分钟空闲时，就会想‘我能快速做些什么来推进业务？’

And also work comes into play into that also. That would be a behavior that goes against goes against my goal. Like, when there's I've got, you know, twenty minutes here. It's like, oh, what can I do real quick with that twenty minutes that would further something from a business standpoint?

所以你没有提前规划与孩子相处的时间。结果要么是根本没时间相处，要么在所谓的‘空闲时间’里也没用来陪孩子。

So you're not scheduling in the time with your kids. And so it either doesn't happen or when you do have quote, unquote free time, you're not using it that way.

没错。是的，我们完全是在进行一场剖析。然后第三栏‘深入挖掘’那些隐藏的竞争性承诺，我把它理解为第二栏‘具体行为’的延伸。

Correct. Yes. We're totally going through a session here. Yeah. And then, you know, in that third column where it's kinda like the dig deeper, like the hidden competing commitments, I kinda I took that as, like, the second column where it said what are the behaviors.

对我来说，第二栏非常具体——你能明确指出哪些具体行为。而第三栏‘隐藏的竞争性承诺’更像是你害怕放弃的信念。我默认的竞争性承诺是：如果我不利用空闲时间做其他事，就无法成为好丈夫、好父亲等等。

To me, that feels very, like, tangible. So for lack of a better way to put it, like, what are the specific things you can pinpoint? And then for the third column, which is, like, dig deeper, what are your hidden competing commitments? To me, that's more like, what are the beliefs that you have that you're afraid to let go of if of that sort of thing back in column two. So my hidden competing commitments are the things that I keep defaulting towards is, well, if I don't take the opportunity to utilize some of my free time to do, like, this other thing, then that's also keeping me from showing up and being a good, good husband, good father, good whatever.

所以我总会找理由说‘这些其他事也很重要’，于是又回头处理那些事，而不是立即去落实‘既然有空闲时间，就该优先安排家庭承诺’

So it's like I find some sort of way to say, well, these other things are really important too. And so it's like I'm going back to do those things but not immediately going back to, hey. I do have the free time. Let me go ahead and schedule that commitment.

那么空闲时间会是怎样的呢？会不会和工作相关呢？

So the free time would be like what else would be would it be, like, work related?

是的。这确实和工作相关。我认为它归入这一栏的原因是，我能找到理由去做这些事，因为它们可以追溯回这个主题——我们完全可以就此另开一档播客。这整套文化规训，比如试图通过成为所谓的'供养者'来扮演支持型父亲、支持型丈夫的角色等等...

Yeah. It would be something like it would be something like work related. And I think that why why it fits into that particular column is because I can find a way to justify doing those things because I I can link it back to this, like we could open up a whole another podcast here. This whole, like, cultural conditioning of, like, well, know, I'm trying to be the supportive father. I'm trying to be the supportive husband by being the quote, unquote provider and all of these other

我想说的是，你可以换个角度看待这件事，认为这是在为家庭提供保障。

gonna say, like, there's a way that you can look at that and be like, you're providing for your family.

是啊。我又不是在刷社交媒体消磨时间，不是所谓的'浪费时间'。我发现自己总爱说'所谓的'这个词。

Yeah. It's not like I'm spending my time, scrolling social media. I'm not, quote, unquote, wasting my time. I say, quote, unquote, a lot. I just realized that.

我没有虚度光阴躺在沙发上无所事事。所以我觉得这其实是在推进某个目标——虽然这些承诺彼此冲突，但我让自己相信这是个有建设性的承诺。

I'm not spending time doing nothing and laying on the couch doing nothing. So I think that that's something that furthers that piece of, like, well, these are competing commitments, but I'm convincing myself that it's a productive commitment.

我停顿是因为...不，我停顿是因为我在思考这个问题。我想大家都有共鸣，直播间观众可能也有同感。生产力这件事很...关于生产力，我们都有某种共通感受，它或许很诱人，或许是自我价值体现——你觉得通过做事、养家来获得成就感，甚至只是陪伴家人时，也会想：'我这样算是在为家庭创造价值吗？'

I took a pause because no. I took a pause because I'm thinking about, like, how and I think we can all relate, and maybe people in the chat can relate. Productivity is very there's a there's something about productivity that we all can relate to, and maybe it's enticing. Maybe it's a self worth thing that you feel productive by doing things, by providing for your family, and therefore, even just, like, spending quality time with family. You you feel like, well, am I being productive with providing for my family?

这其中确实有些我们都能感同身受的东西。

There's just something there too that I think we can all relate to.

是的，我也这么认为。

Yeah. I would I would think so.

而且我认为，无论是为家庭提供支持还是其他任何生产力类别，追求最大生产力输出绝对是我们许多人都会陷入的陷阱。比如，我一天能挤出多少生产力？我昨天还为此发了个短视频，当时我妈早上带孩子，我本打算去锻炼，但锻炼结束时间可能不够早，我还得赶去接孩子，感觉会手忙脚乱。后来我想，干脆取消锻炼，坐下来吃早餐算了。

And I think that there whether it's, like, specific to providing for your family or any other category of productivity, I think that maximum productivity output is definitely a trap that gets a lot of us. That, like, how much productivity can I squeeze into a day? I actually made a reel about this yesterday where I was like, I was my mom had the kids in the morning. I was gonna go work out, and then my mom it was maybe the workout was gonna end not quite early enough and I need to go get the kids and I was like I'm gonna have to scramble and it's gonna be really crazy. I was like you know what I'm just gonna cancel the workout and I'm just gonna sit down and eat breakfast.

你知道吗？我不必把整个早晨的每一秒都压榨到极限，比如健身后冲出门狂奔全城接孩子，再赶去参加三个半小时的空手道课——虽然这部分我还是做了。但我觉得大家肯定都有同感：我们把闲暇时间视为浪费，尤其当这段时光是与他人共处时。其实不必刻意想着'这是增进关系的时刻'，单纯与亲友相处的时光本身就很有价值，正因为它未被'优化'。

And you know I don't have to maximize this entire morning down to the last sixty seconds to where I'm rushing out the door after the workout to speed across town to get my kids to get back to karate to do three and a half hours of karate like which I still ended up doing that part. But like I think we all definitely can relate to the feeling of like downtime is wasted time as opposed to downtime particularly with other people in that relationship, you know, and just hang out. Like, it doesn't even have to have like a, oh, this is my relationship building time. But just downtime with your friends and family is inherently valuable just because you're not optimizing it.

没错，同意。

Yeah. Agreed.

是的，所以整件事从微小目标到宏大目标都如此。比如布芮妮设定的目标是增加固定会议，我听着就觉得：我的生活全是固定会议啊！居然有人对固定会议如此抗拒，需要做两期播客来讨论如何增加会议。我当时想：你和我老板真该互换一半工作量，折中一下——总之这让我觉得特别有趣。

Yeah. So I think that this whole thing is, you know, from small goals to big goals, like, Brene the goal that Brene made was she wanted to make more basically, like, standing meetings. And the whole time I was listening to it, was like, my whole life is nothing but standing meetings. Like, the idea that somebody is, like, so resistant to standing meetings that they have to make a two podcast a two episode podcast series about how they need to have more standing meetings. I was like, can you please talk can you you and my boss need to just, like, switch, like, half and half, like, just meet in the middle because I anyway, it was just, like, this funny moment for me.

不过

But

但我真的很喜欢那个目标，因为她又经营企业又演讲——具体可以听那期播客——她提到很多关于...听起来有点像逃避，或者惯性行事。她说如果会议太多会有束缚感。有趣的是，她那些违背目标的行为反而阻碍了她真正想要的东西，这特别耐人寻味。我梳理这些时不断点头称是。

But I I really liked that goal too because it's just, like, again, she runs a business. She and she kind of she talks and, again, listen to the episodes, but she talks so much about, like, how she it sounded like a little bit of avoidance or just doing because she is like, if I do so many meetings, it feels like it could like, constriction. But the funny thing was is the behaviors that she was doing that kinda work against the goal is, like, preventing her from the actual things she wants, which is really funny. Yeah. When I'm, like, walking through this, I'm like, oh, yeah.

这太有趣了。如果你真的深入挖掘，会发现你正在做的行为实际上与你真正想要的东西背道而驰。

It's so funny. Like, if you really, really, really dig deep, the behaviors that you're doing are working against the actual thing that you want.

没错。她之前说，我不想被条条框框束缚，不想开这么多会议，因为如果时间安排得太死板，我就没法保持想要的灵活性来发挥创意。但最终她意识到，正因为不去参加这些会议，她的时间反而被各种临时事务占据，同样剥夺了她渴望的灵活性。我之所以提到她不同的目标，是因为有趣的是，这套理论甚至适用于看似肤浅的事情——比如安排会议与否——但后来你会发现，这其实触及更深层的核心。

Right. She was saying, like, well, I don't wanna structure I don't wanna have all these meetings because if my time is too structured, then I can't be have the flexibility that I want to be creative. But the what she ends ended up realizing was that because she's not going to these meetings, her time is taken away by continual one offs that also rob her of the flexibility that she's wanting. And I thought I think the reason that I, you know, bring up the different her different goals is that I think it's interesting that you really can apply this to things as seemingly superficial as, you know, scheduling meetings, but then realize, no. This really goes down into or and not even superficial, but, know, for me, it's like schedule the meeting or don't schedule the meeting.

这实际上触及她内心深处的一个信念：我是个有创造力的人，如果开始安排会议就会削弱我的创意身份。或者就像JK说的，这就像把你重新放在显微镜下审视：我是个高效的人，如果放任时间自由散漫，就会影响我作为养家者的生产力。我们往往没意识到，那些阻碍我们实现目标（无论是减重10磅还是早起）的因素，并非意愿不足，而是关于自我身份的深层信念——我们在建立新习惯时，无意中挑战了这些信念。这让我着迷，因为有多少次我们深入剖析时才会惊呼：哇，我都没意识到自己竟然这么看待自己。

But it's really gets into this deep core belief she she holds of like I'm a creative person and if I start scheduling meetings that takes away from my identity as a creative person. Or you know JK to have just put you back under the microscope like I'm a productive person. And if I am over here just sort of, like, freewheeling with my time, that takes away from my ability to be productive and be a provider. And I think, like, we don't always think about these silly little goals that we have of these, you know, the challenges or the lose 10 pounds or the wake up every morning early or whatever it is, we don't necessarily realize that the things that are holding us back are not not wanting it enough, but like really deeply held beliefs about who we are as people that we unknowingly are challenging by trying to create this new habit. And I just found that so fascinating because how many mean, I also am always interested anytime we you dig into something of like, oh, wow, I didn't realize that I really believed that about myself.

这真的很有意思——问题不在于你不够渴望，而是你在设定这个目标时，无意中挑战了关于自我认知的核心信念。

I am just it's really interesting to think of like, it's not again, going back to, it's not that, like, you just don't want it enough. It's that you inadvertently are challenging the core your core beliefs about yourself by setting this goal.

我觉得你总结得很到位。听你讲述时，我想到一个相关维度——虽然我们快结束了——就我个人而言，生产力陷阱的另一个表现是：其他活动能给你'正在做重要事情'的即时反馈，就像即时多巴胺。而当我试图陪伴孩子时，必须提醒自己：你可能不会立刻得到'这是高质量陪伴'的反馈信号。

I think you you summarized that really well. And just as you've been talking about it, I think something that for me adds a wrinkle to it, and I know we're gonna be wrapping up here shortly, something that adds a wrinkle to it with my specific one is also the piece of, you know, I think with being caught up sometimes in the productivity trap, other activities can give you, like, that immediate feedback that you are doing something that matters because you get that immediate feedback. It's kinda like the the immediate dopamine. Whereas sometimes when you're when you're trying to spend quality time or I'm trying to spend quality time with my kids, I have to remind myself, you may not get the immediate feedback that they realize that's quality time. And you have to understand that.

补充说明下，我有16岁的女儿和10岁的儿子，完全处在成长光谱的两端。作为父母，即使你觉得'我们确实在共度美好时光'，也往往得不到即时反馈。

I mean, I for reference, for those who don't know, I have a 16 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. So talk about, like, two completely different ends of the spectrum and and all that sort of stuff. So it's one of those things where you even as a parent, when I feel like, hey. You know, we're definitely spending some quality time together. You you may not get and you probably won't get back to that immediate feedback.

孩子不会突然说：'泰德，谢谢你陪我看电视。'他们可能根本不会注意你。这就是育儿的另一面——它通常没有即时回报，更像是在播种。

Like, your your kid is not gonna be like, you know what? Ted, I just wanted to say thank you for sitting down and watching TV with me right now. They they might not even pay attention to you. So I think that's that's one of those other pieces, that's in there that was definitely a good self reflection for me with that reminder that, you know, parenting is is typically not an immediate payoff. It's it's more like you're just planting some seeds here.

几乎没有任何即时满足感。

Little to no in the moment gratification.

是啊。就像，你依赖于即时的、即刻的积极反馈。

Yeah. Like, you thrive on immediate immediate positive feedback or yeah.

没错。养孩子可能不适合你。

Yeah. Raising kids might not be for you.

嗯，这很有趣。我简单说一下，在治疗中我们经常讨论，我们做事情是因为它对我们有效，因为让我们感觉良好，因为能获得积极反馈，那种多巴胺刺激之类的。从这个角度看，我特别喜欢这个观点，因为它像剥洋葱一样揭示了更深层次的动机，让我们真正诚实面对自己。

Well, it's interesting. I'll say really quickly, in therapy, we always talk about, like, we do things because it's working for us. We do things because it feels good for us. We do things because it's like we get a positive response, that dopamine hit or whatever. So when we look at it in this sense, I really like it just because it really peels the onion of a deeper layer of the why, of really being honest.

我认为这是自我反思最重要的部分。另外，如果能请家人朋友诚实地反馈你的真实欲望，以及你可能在做的与之相悖的事情，这会迫使你更深入审视，而不只是停留在'你不够努力'这种肤浅的思维层面，这也能消除一些羞耻感。希望这次对话对大家有帮助。我很想继续探讨这个话题，也希望Renee能和Lisa Leahy多合作。我打算买她的书深入研究，不过这份工作表也是个不错的开始。

I think that is the biggest piece of asking yourself. And again, if you can ask family or friends to be a really good input for this is being honest with what your desires are and maybe what you're doing that is working against it forces you to really look a little bit deeper rather than just that surface level you don't want enough type of mentality, which again removes some of that shame. So I I hope this conversation for everybody was helpful. I'd love to talk more about it, and I hope Renee does some more with Lisa Leahy. I plan to get her book and dive a little bit deeper into it, but I think the worksheet is also just a nice start.

如果你想初步了解这个话题，我会把所有资料放在节目注释里。特别是关于新年决心的话题，我们一直在讨论：不要设定让自己感觉糟糕的目标。这是一种更积极的改变方式。

If you wanna kind of get the surface level of what this is about, I'll post everything in the show notes. But especially around New Year's resolutions and just the rhetoric around that, and I think we've always been talking about, like, you know, don't set goals to make yourself feel bad about yourself. Like, this is a way for you to be to make change that is, I think, a little more positive in nature.

太棒了。JK，非常感谢你今天参加节目。能告诉大家在哪里可以找到你吗？

Awesome. Well, JK, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you tell everyone where they can find you?

是的，非常感谢邀请我参加，而且话题范围真广啊。

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on, and, what a wide range of topics.

这有点像坐过山车的感觉。

This is a little bit of a roller coaster.

可以说是大杂烩吧。

A potpourri of sorts.

没错，大杂烩，就是个大杂烩。

Yeah. Potpourri. A potpourri.

我们聊体育、聊深刻变革、聊CrossFit，无所不包。最容易找到我的地方是在Instagram上，账号是coach j k mcleod，m c l e o d。

We got sports talk. We got deep change. We got CrossFit, everything. Easiest place to find me is on the Instagram at coach j k mcleod, m c l e o d.

你的播客叫什么？

And your podcast is?

对，谢谢。我的播客叫《帮我理解》。有几个同名的播客，所以如果你搜索《帮我理解》加上JK，应该就能找到我的。

Yes. Thank you. My podcast is help me understand. There's a few podcasts called help me understand. So if you I think if you type in help me understand and then JK, it'll take you to mine.

我的脸通常就在那儿。

My face is usually there.

你的播客非常棒。强烈推荐还没听过的人都去听听。

You have a great podcast. Highly recommend everyone take a listen if you haven't yet.

每次我们转发你们的节目，都会收到大量评论。人们会说，这就是我听到的播客内容，我爱这期节目。所以，是的，非常发人深省，真是精彩的对话。我们非常喜欢。

Anytime we repost your episodes, we get so many comments. People will be like, this is what I hear, podcasts. I love this episode. So it's, yeah, very thought provoking, really great conversations. We love it.

如果你们还没听过的话，我们推荐大家去听听。可以在Instagram上找到我们，账号是Joy Ann Claire下划线。也可以访问我们的网站joyandclaire.com，或者发邮件到JoyandClaire@Gmail.com。

We recommend you guys listen to it if you haven't heard it already. You can find us on Instagram at Joy Ann Claire underscore. You can go to our website, joyandclaire .com. You can email us. This is JoyandClaire@Gmail.com.

非常感谢大家的参与。我们下周四再聊。

Thank you guys so much for being here. We'll talk to you next Thursday.

再见。祝大家今天愉快。再见啦。

Bye. Have a great day. Bye, everybody.