OBG 573：从角色扮演游戏到背景故事

逆向天才呈现《桌游时光》第573期，主题：从RPG到BG。

Inverse Genius presents onboard games episode five seventy three, RPG to BG.

您正在收听《桌游时光》，节目由游戏行业资深人士畅谈棋盘与卡牌游戏爱好，同时探讨玩家、设计师及出版商感兴趣的话题。

You are listening to On Board Games, where game industry veterans talk about the board and card gaming hobby while exploring topics of interest to gamers, designers, and publishers.

本期节目中，埃里克将与林森峰深入探讨如何在桌游中融入RPG元素。本节目由patreon.com/obg上我们出色的赞助者们赞助，衷心感谢你们的持续支持。所有来自Patreon的收入都用于支付我们每月的播客制作成本，这份支持无比珍贵。谢谢大家。

In this episode, Eric is joined by Senfeng Lin to talk all about incorporating RPG elements in board games. Onboard games is sponsored by our amazing patrons at patreon.com/obg. Thank you so much for your continued support. Everything that comes in from Patreon goes to cover our monthly podcasting cost, which is incredibly appreciated. Thank you.

嘿，提醒一下，我们有个周边商店。访问inversegenius.com/store就能看到所有酷炫的《桌游时光》主题商品。当然，如果你希望看到某款新品，告诉我们，我们很可能就会上架。我们渴望听到反馈，欢迎发邮件至onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com。

Hey. Just a reminder, we've got a merch store. You can go to inversegenius.com/store and check out all the cool onboard game swag. And, of course, if there's something you wish was there, just let us know, and I bet we can add it. We live for feedback, so you can send us email at onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com.

你可以在Facebook或Twitter上@onboardgames找到我们，当然还有我们的BoardGameGeek公会325号。期待听到你对RPG与桌游跨界融合的想法。一如既往，请将《桌游时光》推荐给可能喜欢的朋友们。谢谢。大家好，欢迎收听又一期精彩的《桌游时光》。

You can hit us up on Facebook or Twitter at onboard games, and, of course, our guild, guild three two five on board game geek. Love to hear your thoughts on the crossovers between RPGs and board games. And as always, please spread the news of onboard games to those you think would enjoy it. Thanks. Hello, and welcome to another incredible episode of onboard games.

我是主持人埃里克·杜威，你可以在ericdewey.com或BoardGameGeek上的用户ericayrk找到我。今天我很高兴再次邀请到一位嘉宾——无数游戏的设计者（虽然BoardGameGeek显示是68款），森峰·林先生。森峰，欢迎回到节目。

I'm your host, Eric Dewey. You can find me at eric dewey com or eric, a y r k, at board game geek. And with me today, I have brought someone I've been really excited to get back on the show, mister Sen Foong Lim, designer of countless. Although, think Board Game Geeks has 68 games. Sen Foong, welcome back to the show.

嘿，顺便说明下，那个列表里其实包含大量扩展包。特别是那些一个微缩模型就算单独一个扩展包的情况。比如埃里克·朗的游戏清单就长得离谱，因为像他和西蒙在2020年前做的那些团队微缩模型战棋游戏——每个单独模型都被算作一个条目，懂吧？

Hey. And and just so everybody knows, like, that list is enhanced significantly by expansions. And especially expansions where it's like one miniature is an as a separate expansion. Like, if you saw Eric Lang's list of games, it's ginormous because things like if you remember a lot of the the team based miniature games that he made in, like, the you know, just before 2020 with Simon, like, each single miniature is counted as an entry. Right?

总之就是这样。对。对。对。而且某种程度上它把实际数字的范围给扩大了。

So anyways yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it kinda kinda expands it beyond what is actually truly the number.

不过没错，BGG上有很多游戏。既然我们今天聊的是角色扮演游戏，我得说我拥有的RPG数量远超埃里克·兰格，这点我可以肯定。

But, yes, a lot of games on BGG. And if you check out because we're talking about RPGs today, I also have several RPGs way more than Eric Lange. Let me tell you that.

说得好。太棒了。我的收藏里肯定不止五款你的游戏。

There you go. That is awesome. Certainly, more than five of your games are in my collection.

那真是谢谢了。

So Well, thank you.

精彩。那么森风，你最近玩过什么有趣或值得注意的游戏吗？

Excellent. So, Senfeng, have you played anything interesting or noteworthy lately?

有啊。我最近在玩《魔戒命运》，这是马特·利科克基于《魔戒》体系制作的疫情类游戏，简直让我沉迷其中无法自拔。多年前在朋友聚会上我就和马特一起测试过这款游戏，从那时起我就一直念念不忘。所以当它正式发行时，我简直欣喜若狂——终于能向我那些只听过传闻的宅友展示了，他们之前总说'这个不能剧透'。

Yeah. So I've been playing and cannot stop thinking about fate of the ring, pandemic Lord of the Rings system game that Matt Leecock made. I I play tested it with Matt many years ago at the gathering of friends, and I've literally been thinking about it ever since that. And so when it came out, I was like, yes. Finally, I get to show all my nerdy friends who have only been able to tell, oh, you you've gotta like, you can't talk about this.

但你知道，总有一天你能玩到这款顶着超酷IP的游戏。他们最初以为是《克苏鲁》那样的——就像《克苏鲁》刚出时有人问'是这个吗？'，其实完全不是一回事。

But, you know, someday, you'll be able to play that where there's, like, a really cool IP on top of it. And, they thought it was, like, you know, Cthulhu when Cthulhu came out. And they might have said, oh, was it this one? It's like, no. It's not that one.

所以现在我得以和我儿子一起玩这个游戏，他是个超级《指环王》迷。而我另一个儿子却从未看过任何一部电影，也没读过任何一本书，这真的很奇怪，因为他也是个超级书呆子。但他表示，我只专注于《权力的游戏》。他玩这个游戏时，完全把它当作《权力的游戏》来玩。

And so now I got to play it with my son who is a huge Lord of the Rings fan. And my other son who has never ever seen any of the movies, read any of the books, which is really weird because he's also a big nerd. But he was like, I'm just gonna focus on Game of Thrones. And he played it and he played it like it was Game of Thrones.

哦，不。而他

Oh, no. And he

选了阿拉贡。他选了阿拉贡这个角色。然后他就那样一路砍杀过去，结果反而对他有利，因为他不断把索伦之眼从佛罗多所在的位置引开。所以这招居然奏效了。我们第一次玩的时候，四个人一起，都是些教授和科学家，就是我的同事们，结果输得一塌糊涂。

had Aragorn. He had Aragorn. And he, like, just walking through things and just killing everything, and it actually worked out to her favor because he kept on drawing the Eye of Sauron away from where, Frodo was. So it actually worked. And then when a bunch of us played the first time when we played, like, four of us with a bunch of, like, professors and scientists, like, it's all my colleagues from work, we lost incredibly badly.

所以当我孩子突然开始像流浪杀手那样乱砍乱杀时

So when my child randomly goes and goes on like a murder hobo spree

没错。

Right.

我们反而表现不错。所以，是的，我最近经常玩这个。还玩了些小游戏。昨天学院为学生举办了即兴活动，我们有很多国际学生。我们就拿出了桌游。

We ended up doing well. So, yeah, I've been playing a lot of that. And then just some just little games. So we had a drop in yesterday for students at the college, and we have a lot of international students. And so we just brought out board games.

于是我翻出所有桌游，拿出了欢乐三文鱼、四子棋之类的。哦，对。有些游戏他们其实不会玩，因为他们没有北美那种游戏文化基础。对吧？然后我拿出曼卡拉棋，大家就说，哦，这个我知道。

So I ended up, you know, looking at all the board games we had and, you know, happy salmon came out and just, like, connect four and Oh, yeah. Yeah. Things that people don't actually know how to play because they don't have the game literacy of North America. Right? So then I brought up Mancala, and people were like, oh, I I know that one.

对吧？然后我们在玩玉米洞游戏。我们有个大型玉米洞活动。学校举办了一场大型玉米洞比赛。他们就一脸懵，这到底是个啥？

Right? And then we were playing cornhole. We have a big cornhole thing. The college has a big cornhole game. And so they were like, what is even this?

但最后大家都玩嗨了，因为这游戏特别容易上手。对吧？你只要扔个豆袋，投进去就行。

And but they all got into it because it's, like, really approachable. Right? You just throw a beanbag, and it goes in.

我有点好奇，'快乐鲑鱼'游戏有没有带来什么有趣的文化冲击？比如某些鲑鱼符号在不同文化里有特殊含义吗？

I'm kinda curious. Were there any interesting cultural, surprises with, like, happy salmon? Like, does some of the salmon symbols mean something in different cultures or so?

呃，我在想为什么会有...对。更多是那种'我们在干嘛？这到底是什么玩意儿？'的感觉懂吧？

Well, I mean, I'm trying to think of why? Yeah. It was more like, what are we doing? What what even is this? Right?

与其说是理解障碍，不如说是文化差异。但确实有些时候文化因素会极大影响游戏理解。很多时候是语言表述或图案象征的解读差异——比如某些图标在某些文化里代表特定含义。甚至北美英语和英国英语之间也有这种差异。我记得几个月前讲过个例子...

More than more than not understanding it. But there's definitely been times that culture has definitely played a big role in understanding of games. And a lot of times it is that linguistic interpretation or the pictorial interpret interpretation of, like, iconography and things like that where people just kinda like, in my culture, it means this. And it's even between, like, North American English and British English. I was telling this story, I think, like, I don't know, a couple months ago.

当初《贝尔福特》刚发行时——特别是作为我们首款爆款游戏——在BGG论坛上，有位英国玩家死活搞不懂计分规则，我拼命解释'你只要这样操作，然后...'

When Bellfort first came out, especially as, like, our first really big game, when it first came out, on BGG, there was a British BGG member who was, like, not understanding how the scoring was happening, and I was trying to explain it to them. And you just do this, and

这样操作，再这样...

you do this, and you do this, and

你拿这个的一半。或者他正要，嗯，等一下。你刚才说什么？然后我们发现数学里（英国人说maths而我们说math），我们对事物的表述方式其实有微妙差异。比如“一半”这种说法在理解上会产生歧义。

you take half of this. Or and he's he's going, well, wait a minute. What did you just say? And we figured out that in maths, which is how they say it in Britain versus math, we talk about things quite subtly differently. And to say, like, half of means something different or something like that.

我记不清具体措辞了，但问题出在我写的规则表述方式上，他们在数学层面的理解完全不同。很有趣对吧？总之，在做文字表达类游戏时，文化和语言因素影响巨大。

I can't remember the exact phraseology, but it was the way that I wrote the rules, they mathematically interpreted it differently. Fascinating. Right? So anyways yeah. So so, yeah, culture and language play a big deal when you're trying to do games that are written expressions.

对吧？嗯。甚至口头表述也是。比如你要如何向另一种文化背景的人解释一个他们文化里不存在的事物？

Right? Or Mhmm. Even word-of-mouth. And, like, how do you explain to somebody this cultural thing that does not exist in their culture?

不。对。对。抱歉。我不是要打岔，只是突然想到万一遇到不熟悉的国家，像《快乐鲑鱼》游戏里的某些手势可能在其他文化中有完全不同的含义。

No. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to derail, but I just I had visions of suddenly discovering, like, someone from a country I'm not familiar with and some of this the some of the hand gestures and happy salmon or whatever ends up being something else.

确实存在这种情况。就像上周美国发生的事件——相比欧洲悠久历史，你们的历史很短对吧——有人把ILY手势和恶魔角手势搞混了。

Well, I mean, toe totally, there there is that. So, like, things like, even just like the well, it happened in American history a week ago. Right? Which is like your your your history is very short compared to, like, Europe and things like that. Right.

在查理·柯克追悼会上，懂美国手语(ASL)的人知道ILY手势：食指和小拇指竖立是I，拇指食指成L形，拇指小拇指伸展是Y，组合起来是“我爱你”。

But, like, people complaining about the Illy sign versus the devil horn sign. Right? Yeah. When it happened at the memorial for Charlie Kirk. And if you if you can communicate in ASL, American Sign Language, you know that the I l y, so I being, you know, your index or your pinky finger up, the l being your thumb and index finger in an l shape, And then the y, which is your thumb and your pinky finger extended makes the I love you sign.

嗯。这是标准美国手语。但当时人们却指责她在比恶魔角手势——也就是摇滚手势，我记得德州长角牛队也用这个手势。

Mhmm. That's American sign language. And that's what she was doing. And people were saying she was doing like the devil's sign, which is yeah. Devil horns, which is like the rock on sign, which is also, I believe, the Texas lorghorn sign

是的。它

Yes. It

你知道，德州的大学橄榄球队。所以，没错，不同的手势在不同文化中确实有不同含义。比如，有些手势在世界上某些地方你绝对不想做，因为它可能意味着你妻子出轨了，或者你被当狗一样对待之类的。不过这些现象非常有趣。交流正是我的科学研究领域，所以我超爱这类话题。

you know, Texas for the college football teams. So, yes, different different hand signs, hand gestures definitely have a difference in meaning amongst different cultures. Like, there's definitely ones you don't wanna do in certain parts of the world because it means like, you know, your wife's cheating on you or that you're treated like a dog or any anything like that. It's just it's very fascinating stuff, though. Communication is, like, my area of scientific study, so I love this stuff.

哦，太棒了。说真的，提到简单游戏，最近我和妻子参加了个私人游戏展会，有人拿出了《Flip seven》——现在最火的新游戏，我之前从没玩过。我们就坐下来试玩，玩得很开心。这是个非常简单直白的游戏。

Oh, excellent. Excellent. You know, actually speaking of simple games, we recently, my wife and I were at a private game convention thing, and someone brought out Flip seven, which obviously the new hotness, and I hadn't ever played it. And so we kinda sat down and and played it and had a lot of fun with it. It's a real simple straightforward game.

有点像二十一点，但加入了赌运气的元素——你有12个球，11个是数字11，你要尽量避免重复翻倍。所以

It's kind of like blackjack except push your luck kind of issue where you're you have 12 balls, 11 elevens, and you just try not to double up. And so

没错。我们上周三——就是三天前——刚在《Meeple Syrup》直播里采访了设计师Eric Olson。我们聊了这个游戏的设计，以及在当今桌游环境下，设计出真正简单优雅的游戏有多难，明白吗？

Yep. We actually just had Eric Olson, the designer, on Meeple Syrup live last Wednesday. Well, this Wednesday, like, so three days ago. And we talked about the design of that specific game and how hard it is to design something that's actually simple and elegant in today's modern gaming, you know, scenario. Right?

当你面对《UNO》《Phase 10》这类游戏的竞争时，如何既保持竞争力又能做出玩家想玩的游戏？《Flip seven》获得了Spilliage提名，它抓住了时代精神，真的火起来了。

When you're competing with games like UNO and, you know, and, like, phase 10. And how do you compete with that and still have something that gamers will want to play? And, you know, flip seven is a Spilliage nominee. It's it's caught the the zeitgeist. It's it's really in there.

如果从设计角度看，它确实是个天才设计。那个倒转的...

And it is actually if you look at it from a design perspective, it is a brilliant design. That upside down

是的。

Yes.

你刚才提到的牌组，有12张十二、11张十一、10张十等等，这些构成了游戏。他在节目中谈到的内容，你可以直接去查找。在YouTube上搜索“枫糖浆”就能找到。关键是每张牌都很重要，对吧？

Deck that you just talked about with 12 twelves, 11 elevens, 10 tens, etcetera, etcetera, that makes the game. And what he talked about in the show, and you can just go find it. It's on YouTube, maple syrup. It's that every card is important. Right?

数字2很重要，因为它几乎保证你能参与一局游戏。

A two is important because it you'll almost guaranteed get to play a game.

对。

Right.

对吧？你很可能就会这么做。它值2分，虽然不多，但你能玩上一局。而11之所以重要，是因为赢得比赛需要得分。11的重要性在于它让你面临那个抉择。

Right? You're all you're probably gonna go. It's worth two points, which is not a lot, but you're gonna get to go a game. And then an 11 is important because you win the game by scoring points. And so an 11 is important because it makes you have that decision.

这里有11，还有另外10个类似的。我该这么做吗？对吧？这非常有趣。故事最精彩的部分是关于那些特殊能力牌——无论你怎么称呼它们，或是万能牌，那些印有小字的牌。

There's 11 there's 10 more of these. Should I do it? Right? And it's it's fascinating. And the the best part of the story is the story about the the different ability cards or whatever type of word you would would use or the wild cards, the the cards that have these little words in them.

对，超能力牌。其中一张是‘抽三张’，你可以用它迫使对手抽三张，或者如果你真想的话，也可以让自己抽三张。还有‘冻结’牌。它们原本是分开的两张牌，但在最初版本里，它们在同一张牌上，由玩家选择使用哪种效果。

Yeah. Superpowers. And one of the cards draw three is one of the cards that you can play where you can force an opponent to draw three, or you can force yourself to draw three if you really wanted, I guess, and then freeze. So they're they're two separate cards. But in the original iteration, they were on the same card, and you had the choice.

比如，你想把自己冻住吗？就像我要对你用这招。你选择被冻结，还是选择抽三张牌？就是这类玩法。这让游戏变得更具策略性，但我觉得运营团队把它发展成了，嘿，

Like, do you wanna freeze yourself out? Like, I'm gonna play this on you. Do you choose to be frozen, or do you choose to draw three? You know, that kind of thing. And so it was it it made for a much more tactical game, but I think the op developed that into, hey.

为什么不能简化成两张牌？我们不需要解释太多，实际上对大众来说可能更容易理解和上手，比起一张牌有两种功能。对吧？总之，我觉得这款极其简单的游戏里藏着些绝妙设计，让你作为设计师会捶胸顿足：我怎么就没想到？

Why isn't this just two cards? We don't have to explain as much, and it might actually be, you know, easier and more approachable for a mass audience to get that versus one card that could do two things. Right? So, anyways, I I think there's some really neat stories in that game that is so simple that, like, you're you kick yourself as a designer saying, why didn't I think of that?

对，完全同意。而且我

Right. Exactly. And I

我绝对有类似的牌组。我有按数字递增排列的牌组——一张1、两张2、三张3这样类推。但从没想过用它做押注式二十一点玩法。所以，没错。

I definitely have decks exactly like that. I have decks that are one one, two twos, three threes, four four five fives, etcetera, etcetera. But I never thought of doing a push your luck blackjack style game with it. So Right. Yeah.

向埃里克致敬。他这次真的抓住了精髓。顺便说，这款游戏——虽然我讲了这么多，你们真该听听他亲口说的——其实是三十年前他高中时和朋友们在餐桌上发明的。

Hats off to Eric. He he really hit the nail on the head with this one. And this is a game, by the way. And I'm telling you all this, and you should still just go listen to the actual words out of his mouth. But it it's actually a game that he invented with his friends around the table at high school, like, thirty years ago.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

是啊。虽然现在版本更完善，但核心概念源自当年。他和朋友午餐时间用五分、一分硬币玩扑克，后来厌倦标准玩法就开始自创变体。这就是他们摆弄扑克牌时诞生的创意之一。

Yeah. Not in its current iteration and not, like, as well developed, but the concept. He is he would play poker with his friends at lunch for, like, nickels, right, and pennies and dimes. And they got bored of, like, standard poker, and so they kept on making up variants and things like that. And then this was one of them that just came out of playing with a deck of cards.

对吧？太有意思了。

Right? So fascinating stuff.

绝对没错。我们还玩了《Hot Streak》。你玩过这个吉祥物赛跑游戏吗？我

Absolutely. Absolutely. We did also get to play Hot Streak. Have you played Hot Streak yet, the mascot racing game? I

这很有趣，虽然不应该说‘据说’，但确实有。比如新版魔法赛跑游戏，还有其他各种赛跑类游戏。

there's a it's it's so funny that there are supposedly not supposedly. I mean, there are. Like, there's the new iteration of magical race. There's that one. There's a bunch of other, like, race games.

不论你是押注参赛者，能否影响比赛结果，还是纯随机——仔细想想，很多游戏本质都是赛跑游戏。不过我还没玩过你说的那个，快告诉我详情，看起来特别搞笑。

Whether you are betting on the things that are racing, whether you're able to affect them or not, whether it's random. You know, it's it's really interesting, but, you know, a lot of games are race games if you think about it. So no. I haven't read that one, though. It's actually tell me about it because it looks hilarious.

确实很搞笑。顺便一提，《魔法运动员》也重制了，和《Hot Streak》同属CMYK Games旗下，挺有意思的。但

It is pretty hilarious. So just as a pause, yeah, magical athlete has been redone as well, and it's published by the same company that does Hot Streak at CMYK Games, which is kind of funny. But

是啊，他们是想借赛跑题材赚钱呢，还是自家产品互相抢市场啊？

Yeah. It's like, are are you trying to, like, capitalize on this whole race thing? Yeah. Or are are you, like, cannibalizing your own sales because of this?

我也不清楚。总之《Hot Streak》里有四个吉祥物人偶赛跑，赌谁先到终点。移动方式是抽卡决定前进、摔倒或转向等。虽然知道卡组构成，但每个玩家会偷偷加一张秘密卡进去。

I I don't know. So, yeah, so in Hot Streak, you have four different mascots, people in mascots and costumes, and they're supposed to be racing to the finish line, whoever cross es it first, second, third, etcetera. And you're betting on who's going to make it. And the way that they move is there's a deck of cards, it says, you know, they move forward three or they fall down or or they turn and that kind of stuff. And you know what the deck contains, except everybody has a secret card that they put in, so they'll know that that card is going to also be part of the deck.

然后你基本上就是在对不同的人下注，同时还可以进行一些额外的投注。等所有赌注和牌组设置好后，你就开始运行游戏，进行比赛，移动棋子。就像我说的，棋子会倒下，会互相超越，会绊倒对方。有时它们会转错方向，倒着跑。最终所有棋子都会完成比赛，然后你结算奖金，这样进行多轮游戏。

And then you just kind of are betting on the different different people, and there's also some side bets that you can do as well. So once all that betting in the deck is set up, you just kind of run the game, run the race, and you move the pieces. And like I said, they'll fall, they'll move in front of each other, they'll trip each other. Sometimes they get turned around the wrong way and run backwards. And then eventually they'll all finish and then you'll pay out the money and you you do that over a series of rounds.

游戏本身很有趣也很有意思。当然，它的设计元素和实体组件简直超乎想象。那些角色是巨大的塑料模型。游戏垫直接从盒子里展开——它不是布料，但材质类似。

And the game itself is fun and and kind of interesting. The of course, the design aspects of it, the physical aspects of it are just off the chart. You know, the figures are big plasticky things. The mat rolls out of the box itself. It's sort of this it's not fabric, but it's something similar like that.

嗯。而且所有组件都...

Mhmm. And, everything comes in

就像铺开红地毯一样，对吧？

It was like rolling out a red carpet. Right?

对，完全正确。盒子上还有个透明塑料窗，不玩游戏时也能看到里面所有的吉祥物。虽然这些设计对游戏本身并非必要，但都增添了准备玩《Hot》时的趣味性。

Right. Exactly. And there's, a little clear plastic window in the box so you can see all the the mascots in it when you're not actually placing playing the game. And and I I really feel like none of that is necessary to the game, but all of it adds to sort of the the fun that you're getting ready to do inside of Hot

Top。是的。我觉得随着我们作为设计师和发行商的成长，我们越来越意识到游戏本质是商品，对吧？我们必须对这些产品进行工业设计。

Top. Yeah. So, I mean, I think as we evolve as designers and publishers, we're realizing more and more that games are a product. Right? And that we have to do product design on these things.

如果你观察任何大众市场游戏或玩具，展示商品的窗口都是关键设计。首先我需要看到购买内容，而且——你知道的——那些购买可动人偶的成年人，他们都会把玩具存放在原盒里。嗯。

And if you looked at any mass market game, if you looked at any toy, the window in which you see the things is a is a big deal. Right? Because I need to see the thing that I'm buying, first of all. But, also, you know, adults who buy action figures, they store them in the box. Mhmm.

他们想看是因为想保持模型完好，但又想看到它们。想保持模型完好，却又想看到它们。如果没有透明窗口，就做不到这一点。所以这些在爱好中并不常见，你知道的，盒子上有玻璃纸或塑料窗口。我不认为那是玻璃纸做的。

And they wanna see them because they wanna keep the mint, but they wanna see them. They wanna keep the mint, but they wanna see them. And you can't do that if there's no window. So these things that are not commonplace in hobby, you know, having a a cellophane window or plastic window in your box. I don't think it's made of cellophane.

那真的非常、非常脆弱。总之，盒子上有塑料窗口并不常见，除非你想展示微缩模型。对吧？

That'd really, really weak. Anyways, having the plastic window in your box is not typical unless you're trying to showcase the miniatures. Right?

对。

Right.

而且我相信你说的那些是预涂装或直接成型为正确颜色的，那就是你想展示的东西。是的，那很吸引眼球，非常棒。所以我认为体验设计师明白这一点，考虑体验的产品设计师理解游戏不仅仅是游戏本身。游戏还包括它在货架上的样子。

And because I believe that the ones you're talking about are, like, prepainted or molded in the right in the colors, and, like, that's that's what you wanna show off. Yes. That's that's eye catching, and it's it's wonderful. So I I do think an experiential designer understands that a product designer who thinks about experience understands that the game isn't just the game. The game is, you know, what it looks like on the shelf.

打开它时感觉如何？打开时的体验是什么？当我把那些模型放回盒子里时，是否有那种令人满足的轻微——

What does it feel like when I open it? What's the experience when I open it? When I pop those figures into back into the box, is there that satisfying little, like,

咔嗒声

click

当你感觉它正好嵌入设计好的位置时？我超爱那种感觉。我认为这类细节真的很棒。甚至像植绒工艺——你知道植绒是什么吗？

that you feel when it, like, goes into, like, the the space that it was made to go into? I love that. I I think some of that stuff is is really great. And even things like flocking. Do know what flocking is?

你玩微缩模型游戏对吧？

You you play miniature games. Right?

对，对对。就是那种你会涂在模型底座上的毛茸茸绿色材料之类的。

So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of the fuzzy green stuff that you will put on bases of miniatures and whatnot.

没错。八十年代那会儿，游戏盒里的塑料内衬很多都植绒处理——那时候什么都讲究多花点钱。那种植绒内衬摸起来...嗯...手感特别高级。现在某些高端版本游戏也会配植绒内衬，就为了营造那种奢华感。

Yes. And there was an era of time where a lot of the plastic inserts that we had in game boxes is, like, probably in the eighties where everything was, like, a little extra money. But those plastic inserts were flocked because it just felt like Mhmm. The hand feel was just so rich. And you you might see that on some of the more prestige versions of games where they come with, a flocked insert because it just feels like Fancy.

是是是。

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

对吧？比如你可能有套高级象棋——我有套大理石象棋就装在植绒盒里。还有个抽象风格的游戏，所有组件都像水晶切割的，也配植绒盒。设计师显然觉得：不行...

Right? And you wanna you might want that you might want your game to feel like that if you're, you know, maybe have, like, a really high level, like, chess set. Like, I have a marble chess set that is a flocked box. I also have a game where, like, it's very abstract and everything's, like, almost, like, looks like it's cut out of crystal, and that has a flocked box. And, you know, again, I think, like, the people who designed it are like, no.

不行不行，这内衬绝不能随便，必须够档次。

No. No. This can't just be any old insert. It has to be a fancy insert.

没错。不过要注意，如果设计暗示的体验和你实际得到的体验不匹配...你懂吧？

Right. Right. The one thing you gotta watch out for though is if that all of that design implies a particular experience and your ultimate experience doesn't match, you know, what Perfect. What you have.

确实如此。对吧？所以我认为在设计过程中，无论是游戏本身、产品还是体验，我们通过包装盒、美术、封面、宣传语、标题选择以及盒面图案等元素做出承诺。正如你所说，如果实际体验无法达到预期——无论是感知的热度还是你期待的感受——无论游戏本身好坏，玩家都会感到失望。

Is exactly true. Right? So I think a lot of times in design, whether it's the game itself, the product, the experience, we make promises with the box, the art, the cover, the words we say, the title we choose, the art we put on the box. And again, like you said, if the experience doesn't live up to the percepted percepted? The perceived hype or the perceived feeling that you think you're gonna get, you're gonna be disappointed no matter if the game is good or not.

对吧？以《指环王》这类游戏为例，你看到那座高塔，戒灵们站在——顺便说他们本不必这么做——但开发者给每个戒灵配置了不同高度的飞行支架。大概有三四种不同高度的支架，这让戒灵群看起来像在编队飞行，而不是呆板地保持同一高度。

Right? Right. So with a game like Lord of the Rings, you know, you see this big tower, you have the Nazgul on and they didn't have to do this, by the way, but they put the Nazgul on individually different height of like flight stands. There's like three or four different heights of flight stand. And it just looks like a flock of NASGOL instead of them all at the same height.

这效果太棒了。其实根本不需要这些飞行支架来展示戒灵，但视觉效果就是更出色。这种设计营造出压迫感——当九个戒灵盘踞某区域时，你会本能觉得'我们不该靠近'，这种氛围传达得非常直观。

And it's it's beautiful. You don't even need to have these flying NASGOLs around on flight stands, but it just looks better. And so the experience feels claustrophobic. Like there's nine NASGLs in this area, we should not go there. And you can kind of tell.

但如果你只是用九个小方块计数器来代表戒灵，体验就完全不同。所以在这个细分领域——比如桌游产业——我们越来越注重细节，有时候这些额外的巧思能让游戏体验提升到全新高度。《指环王：护戒使者的命运》（是叫这个名字对吧？）就有大量精妙设计。

But if you just had this little counter that you counted up nine or nine little cubes, it just it just wouldn't feel the same. So, yeah, I I I think we're getting a little more savvy in this particular edge of the industry in, like, hobby games that sometimes those little extra touches elevate the game to, like, a whole other level. And there's a there's a lot of great design in the Lord of the Rings Fate of the Fellowship. That's what it's called, Fate of the Fellowship.

护戒

Fate of

不是魔戒的命运。这款产品设计得如此出色，游玩过程充满乐趣，我已经迫不及待想继续体验更多内容了。

the Not Fate of the Ring. That and that it's it's it's just such a well designed product that it's it's been it's been a joy to play it. So looking forward to playing it even more. Yeah.

关于《Hot Streak》有个有趣的设计：移动卡牌组本身很大——大概六八十张？但在实际游戏中你只会用到18张左右。

So one thing on Hot Streak that I found interesting. So the deck itself of of movement cards, I can't remember. Sixty, eighty. It's a it's a pretty big sized deck. But for the game that you play, you're only going to be using 18 or so of the cards.

游戏开始时，你会分发那18张公共牌，所有人都能看到。所以你会大致看出，某个吉祥物很可能比其他几个更有优势。这副牌在你进行的三轮游戏中保持不变。我们之间有过一些争论，认为如果每轮都更换牌组会更好，因为你会发现自己在尝试做同样的赌注，因为虽然每个人出一张牌会让牌组概率略有变化，但影响不大。我还没试过那种玩法，但觉得会是个有趣的实验。

And so at the beginning of the game, you deal out those 18 that are sort of the public, and everyone gets to see them. So you'll kind of see, oh, more than likely, this particular mascot's gonna have the advantage over the others. And that deck stays the same through the three rounds that you play. And there was a bit of a debate amongst us about wouldn't it be better if you change the deck up each time because you find yourself making trying to make the same bets because the odds the deck changes a little bit because each person puts in a card, but not a lot. And so I haven't played it that way, but I think that'd be an interesting sort of experiment.

你玩过《骆驼快跑》吗？我玩过《骆驼快跑》。是的。

So if you have you played Camel Camel Up? I have played Camel Up. Yes.

没错。《骆驼快跑》最棒的一点在于玩家的决策空间较小。如果你思考这个游戏真正想让你体验什么，它就像是在让你对某件事下注，并有合理机会猜中。对于听众中没看过游戏骰子的人——它们不是六面骰。好吧，确实是六面骰，但点数不到六。

Yeah. And so one of the best things about Camel Up is that you as a user do have a smaller decision space. If you think about what the game is is truly trying to experience, it's like you're trying to bet on something and have a decent chance of it happening. And if you've never looked at the dice in Camel Up, for those of you who are listening, they're not six sided dice. Well, they are six sided dice, but they don't go up to six.

骰面是一到三点。这种点数减半意味着你的决策空间非常有限，你能在合理准确范围内预测走势。一旦超过四五步，你就会完全摸不着方向。但正因为这个窗口期小，你才能预测。我觉得这款游戏也在追求类似效果。虽然我还没玩过。

They're like one to three. And that halving of the die just means that your decision space is so much more limited, like, that you can predict where things are going within a reasonable realm of accuracy. Once it goes beyond, you know, four or five, you're like, I don't even know where this is gonna end But because you have that smaller window, you can predict. And I think that's kind of what they're getting to in this game as well. I haven't played it yet.

我特别想玩，因为觉得那些迷你模型太滑稽了。它们像《佩珀军士孤独之心俱乐部乐队》里的造型，胖墩墩的懂吗？我超爱这个设定。

I really want to because I I think the miniatures look hilarious. They're like sergeant Pepper's lonely heart clubs band and it's, like, chunkiness. Right? So I love it. Yeah.

就像《Feudum》里那种巨型怪物般的怪异玩意儿。总之通过让牌组不断循环，你会获得某种先知优势。这几乎像是内置了让分机制，明白吗？没错。

Like like, feudum kinda like giant monster y weird looking things. Anyways but by having the deck repeat itself again and again, you're going to kind of have some pre knowledge of things. It's almost like embedding, you know, like handicapping. Right? Right.

所以掌握一些内幕消息后，你清楚自己要出什么牌，其他玩家也知道自己的牌。这才是游戏的精髓所在——如果完全随机毫无规律，你根本无法做出合理下注。

So having some knowledge, some insider knowledge of what's gonna happen, but then you have a card that you know you're playing and all the other players have a card that they know they're playing. And that's I think where the game really lies because if you didn't know anything and everything was always random, you'd be like, I can't actually make a reasonable bet.

对。

Right.

对吧？就像在拍卖游戏里一样。那种你根本不知道物品价值的拍卖游戏，你可能会花10美元买下没人要的东西，然后心想：好吧，这10块钱算是打水漂了。于是你从一开始就比其他玩家落后10分。这种信息缺失的感觉，和游戏中牌组不固定带来的不确定性如出一辙。

Right? It's like it's like in an auction game. In an auction game where you don't know what anything is worth and you spend like, you know, $10 on something that nobody's ever gonna buy and you go, well, now I guess I'm just out $10. So I start at minus 10 compared to the rest of you guys. It it's it's the same kind of like, loss of of space, a loss of information when you don't have the same deck coming in a game.

同理——如果要公平比较的话——这就像《瘟疫危机》里的牌组。虽然每次洗牌顺序不同，但如果你知道牌组里有纽约和多伦多的卡牌，你就清楚该重点防范哪些区域。你会想：好吧...

And the same thing I mean, it's if we're gonna compare apples to apples, you can compare it to the deck in pandemic. Right? When the deck in pandemic repeats itself in a different order. But if you know that, you know, New York and Toronto are in the deck, you know where you should focus. You say, okay.

没错。那个地方会再次爆发疫情，然后引发连锁反应往这个方向蔓延——毕竟《瘟疫危机》的核心机制就是连锁反应。所以你自然会把人员优先部署在北美附近。

Right. That's gonna explode again and that's gonna cause this to happen. The chain reaction goes this way because that's what pandemic is actually about. It's about chain reactions of things. And so you know to put your dudes probably closer to North America.

但如果有调度员角色，情况就变成：好吧，我们有了调度员，可以先在欧洲周旋一会儿，等需要时再调度过去。关键在于理解系统运作规律——并非所有机制都需要随机性才能保持趣味性。嗯...我觉得这是游戏设计的重要一课。

But if you have to say the dispatcher, then you're like, okay. We have the dispatcher. We can futz around over here in Europe a bit, then the dispatcher can move us over there. So understanding how the systems work and that something doesn't have to necessarily be random to still be interesting and fun Mhmm. I think is a good lesson to learn in design.

人们总是过分追求模块化、随机性和重玩价值，却忘了：当知识不是固定不变，当某些要素可能（但不会过度）变化时，这种认知过程本身就很有趣。因为如果变化太剧烈，玩家就会像Jay常说的那样摊手抱怨：看来我该多掷几个六点才行啊。

People get really caught up in like modularity and randomness and replay value and sometimes forget that having knowledge of something is interesting when the knowledge isn't fixed and when some things can possibly change, but not too much. Right. Because if too much changes and you're like, you just throw your hands in the air and it's something Jay says all the time. He goes, I guess I should have rolled more sixes. You know?

你说得对。就像我喉咙里卡了东西似的。有些游戏确实...有些游戏里你根本无能为力。对吧？

You're right. It's like something out of my throat. In some games yeah. There's some games there's nothing you can do. Right?

但在像《瘟疫危机》这样的游戏中，玩家对牌组有所了解，这对记忆力好的人确实有些优势。不过你也应该能通过观察游戏状态来判断发生了什么。下次情况会类似但顺序稍有不同，对吧？总之，就是这样。

But in a game like Pandemic where you have knowledge of the deck, and this does lean a little heavily on people who have good memories. But also you should just be able to look at game state and and say, This is what happened. It's gonna happen similarly but slightly differently in a different order next time. Right? So, anyways yeah.

我喜欢这个设计。

I like it.

可能这就是原因。可能就是。

That's might be why. Might be why.

有可能吧。我不确定，我还没

That could be. I don't know. I haven't

玩过这个游戏。所以

played it yet. So

我得说，看着一个穿热狗装的男人或打扮成女王的女人时，你会莫名地为他们加油，这很有趣。就像《Ready, Set, Bet》里那样，你会忍不住喊‘加油，加油’。

I will say it is funny how much you start cheering on to this guy in a hot dog suit or this woman dressed as a queen. It's much like Ready, Set, Bet, where you're just, like, really just go, go, go, go.

游戏里有个穿热狗装的角色？

There's a there's a guy in a hot dog suit?

是的。有一只熊、一套热狗服装、一位女王，还有一个我记不清是什么了。可能是个外星人或搞怪的生物。

Yes. There's a bear, a hot dog suit, a queen, and I forget what the other one is. I think it's like an alien or a goofy creature.

对，对，对。既然你提到有热狗服装，我必须买这个游戏了——因为来观众席之前，我还跟埃里克说，要是有人看到我的亚马逊心愿单，肯定会纳闷为什么他需要一件印着热狗的T恤？现在你说游戏里有个穿热狗服的家伙，我我我更需要这游戏了。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And now that you said there's a hot dog suit, I have to get that because before we came on audience, I was mentioning to Eric, if anybody ever looked at my Amazon wish list, they'd be wondering why does he need a shirt with a hot dog on it? And now that you mentioned there's a guy in a hot dog suit, I I I need this game even more.

要是你好奇我为什么喜欢热狗或老提热狗，随时可以来找我，咱们可以聊聊热狗。

And if you ever are interested in knowing why I like hot dogs or talk about hot dogs a lot, you can you can come find me, and we'll we'll chat about hot dogs.

太棒了。

Excellent.

总之。

Anyway.

我还有最后一个游戏要介绍，但在这之前你还有什么想补充的吗？没有的话，那我们就继续。好的，最后要说的游戏叫《76号卡车》。

So I have one last game to talk about, but did you have anything else you wanted to mention before we do it? No. I think that's good. Alright. So the last game I wanna talk about is called Truckin' 76.

这是Play Games（拼写为p l a a y）开发的。布鲁斯·沃格推荐给我的。这家公司做了很多简单的体育模拟类游戏，比如你可以下注赛马之类的。但他们设计了《76号卡车》，这是一款支持单人或双人的游戏，本质上就是《烟枪与强盗》的桌游版。

It's by Play Games, p l a a y. Bruce Vogue turned me on to this. So Play Games does a lot of kind of simple sports simulation type games. Like, you can bet on Hai Lai and and and different kinds of stuff like that. But they had designed Truckin' 76, which is a either solo or two player game that is essentially Smoky and the Bandit.

你正试图从特克萨卡纳运送一批啤酒到亚特兰大，途中要尽可能快速完成，同时避免被交警逮到等等。所以我一听到这个游戏设定就被吸引住了。游戏刚发售他们就寄来了，我拿到后已经玩了几局。挺有意思的，我觉得待会儿休息后的讨论会涉及很多这方面内容，不过这是个规则非常简单的游戏。

You're trying to get from Texarkana to Atlanta with a delivery of beer and along the way trying to do it as quickly as you can without the Smokies catching you, etcetera. And so I was sold as soon as I heard pitch for it. And so it just came out and they shipped it out and I picked it up and I've actually played a few games of it. And it's interesting. And I think it'll play a lot into our discussion after the break, but it's a very simplistic game.

基本上你的选择就是走哪条路线。共有三条路线可选。你可以选择开'双镍'速度（55英里/小时），或者选择'油门踩到底'超速行驶。显然超速能移动更多格子，但被警察抓住开罚单的风险也更大。如果收到罚单，你得交保释金才能出拘留所，这会耗费大量时间。

So you basically your choices are which route you want to take. There's three routes. And whether you wanna go double nickel, which is 55, or you wanna hammer down, which is speeding. And, obviously, if you speed, you can move more spaces, but there's a greater risk of getting caught by the police and getting tickets. And if you get a ticket, you're in jail until you can bond out, and it eats up hours.

游戏基本以小时为单位计算。耗时越短，最终得分就越高。而且

And the game is basically measured in hours. So the shorter it takes you, the less hours you spend, the higher your score is going to be at the end. And

我我太喜欢这个设定了。作为七十年代出生的人，我对大卡车文化很着迷，经历过民用波段电台（CB）盛行的年代。

I I love the the concept of this. So I'm I'm a seventies baby. And so, like, big trucking, and I was I was alive during, like, the CB era.

没错。你有过电台呼号吗？你的CB呼号是什么？

Yep. Did you have a handle? What was your CB handle?

我我其实没有。我在加拿大这边不太流行这个，不过我看过《BJ与熊》这类电视剧。这个游戏听起来像是《炮弹飞车》加上大卡车元素，我完全被吸引了。而且布鲁斯对游戏的品味一向很好，总能找到既有趣又好玩的游戏。

I did I did not. I'm in Canada, so it wasn't as but I got to see, like, you know, BJ and the bear on TV and all that kind of stuff. And this sounds very, like, Cannonball Run plus big rings, and so I'm in. I'm in. And Bruce also has very good taste in games that are are interesting and fun.

布鲁斯是个很棒的人。如果你不认识他，他真是个了不起的家伙。他经常组织些...该怎么形容呢？类似游戏节目式的互动游戏。没错。

Bruce is a great guy. If you don't know Bruce, he is a wonderful human. He does a lot of, like, what do you wanna call them? Like, like, almost like play like game show games. Yep.

没错。他会像慈善拍卖或大型现场活动游戏节目的主持人那样。所以他总说，我需要一个巨型Plinko板。哪里能弄到巨型Plinko

Yep. He'll be like the host of a a game show game for, like, charity or auctions or events, live big events. And so he's always saying, you know, I need to get a giant Plinko board. Where can I get a giant Plinko

板？正是如此。

board? Exactly.

完全正确。但如果他喜欢这游戏，我大概也会喜欢。在那些必须亲身体验才能明白的荒唐游戏上，我们品味非常相似。你会向喜欢这类东西的朋友展示，但普通游戏之夜可能不会拿出来玩。不过热衷的人会超级投入，觉得这太酷了。

Exactly. But if he likes the game, I will probably like the game. We have very similar tastes when it comes to, like, kind of ridiculous games that you have to play to experience, and then you'll show your friends who like that kind of stuff, but you probably won't bring it out for, like, general gaming night. But the people who are into it will be like, I'm so into that. That is so cool.

对。这就是个典型例子。《卡车司机76》不算深度游戏，但很有趣。实际上游戏还有几种模式，第一种就是我描述的那种，你的运输与啤酒。

Yeah. That this is a perfect example of that. Trucking 76 is not a deep game, but it is fun. And he actually has a couple of of modes for the game. The first one is kind of what I've described, your haul and beer.

但还有另一种模式可以接其他货物。其实还附带一本小册子，内容不复杂，算是冒险指南。比如你在特克萨卡纳抽到某张卡，会读到一小段故事，做个简单选择然后继续。

But then there's another one where you are you can pick up other cargoes as well. And there are actually there's a little book. It's not very detailed, but there's a little book of of adventures. So if you're in Texarkana and you draw this card, there's a little paragraph. You read a little story, and then you kinda make a small choice and then move on.

虽然达不到《天方夜谭》的层次，但这种

It's it doesn't you know, it's not tales of Arabian Nights level stuff, but it is it is kind of sort of fun in that

听起来几乎像《十字路口》系统对吧？就像《死亡寒冬》那种。对，类似。爱了。

It sounded almost sounds like the Crossroads system, right, from, like Yep. Dead of winter and stuff like that. Right. Similar. Love it.

嗯。不错。

Yep. Cool.

所以这是一款名副其实的游戏，正如包装上所说，没有更多花哨的东西。就像你说的，它不会有那么深的策略性。但游戏里有足够多有趣的选项和可能发生的搞笑事件。所以我挺喜欢《卡车司机76》的，纯粹为了好玩。好吧。

So it's been a it's it's been a fun it's one of those games that is exactly what it says on the box and, you know, doesn't do anymore. So like you said, it's not gonna be this deep strategy. I was like, oh, but the there's there's enough fun choices in the game and just kinda funny things that can happen, as well. And so I I like Truckin' 76, just just for fun. Alrighty.

我们稍作休息。回来后，我们将探讨桌游能从角色扮演游戏中学到什么，反之亦然。嘿，我是埃里克。我想告诉大家，自2020年起，我们一直使用Zencastr进行录音，这对我们帮助巨大。它不仅能像Zoom或Teams那样让你们互相连接交流，还能将每条音轨分开录制，这对后期剪辑至关重要。

Well, let's take a quick break. And when we're talking when we come back, we're gonna see about what board games can learn from RPGs and vice versa. Hey. This is Eric. I just wanted to let you guys know that since 2020, we've been using Zencastr to do all of our recording, which has been a huge help to us because what it allows you to do is have your basic website where you can connect with one another and communicate with one another, you know, like your Zooms and your Teams, but it also records everything in a separate track, which is critical when editing time comes around.

所以，我建议大家试试Zencastr，网址是zencastr.com。谢谢。

So, hey, I encourage you. Check out Zencastr, zencastr.com. Thanks.

然后

And

我们回来了。我还是埃里克，他还是森峰，我们要讨论桌游与角色扮演游戏能互相借鉴什么。思考这个话题时，我发现自己最近玩了很多战役类游戏，或是那些试图模拟RPG元素的游戏。同时我也在玩角色扮演游戏。

we're back. I'm still Eric. He's still Senfeng, and we are here to talk about what board games can learn from RPGs and vice versa. So when I was thinking about this topic, I I found myself I've been playing a lot of campaign games or a lot of games that try and simulate stuff, RPG esque stuff. And I also play in RPG games as well.

观察两者的交汇点很有意思，同时也能发现哪些领域它们不该交汇。我认为我们

And it's interesting to kind of see where the crossroads meet and then why they shouldn't meet in certain areas as well. I think our

噢，我太喜欢这个了。我喜欢

Oh, I love that. I love

诸如此类的话题。在我们深入讨论之前，你有什么初步想法或特别想探讨的方向吗？

Different things like that. Talk about. So before we dive in a little bit, do you have any initial thoughts or any any paths you wanna drive down?

没有。咱们就随便试试看吧，这不正是我们角色扮演游戏的精髓吗？干脆来个扮演播客主的RPG如何？

No. Let let's let's let's let's f around and find out. Like, that's what our RPGs are all about. Right? Let's play an RPG of being podcasters.

听起来不错。首先我想探讨的是RPG与桌游在规则理念上的差异。容我摆个老资历——从这两种游戏诞生之初我就在玩了。RPG给我的感觉是'你可以为所欲为，这里只是为某些行动（比如战斗）提供规则框架'。

That sounds good. So the first thing I wanna land on is sort of the difference in the way rules philosophy between an RPG and a board game. Because when I look at it and I get to play the old man card, I've been doing RPGs since they were created and board games, you know, same period of time. But I always think of RPGs as saying, you can do anything you want. Here's some rules on certain things that you want to do, you know, combat and whatnot.

而桌游恰恰相反，它明确规定'你只能通过特定方式达成目标'。总有人会钻空子说'规则又没禁止我把棋子直接移到终点'，但玩家间存在默认契约不能这么做。正是这种边界差异造就了两类游戏各自的发展轨迹。

But otherwise, you can do whatever you want. And board games are sort of the inverse of that. Here's exactly how you can do what you want to do, and anything outside of that, you can't really do it. You know, there's always a person that says, well, it doesn't say I can't just pick my piece up and move it to the end because there's that implied consent that you can't do it that way. And so within those sort of boundaries, that is kind of how how those two games sort of exist and evolve in their own sort of methodology.

但这并不意味着二者不能有大量交集。

But that doesn't mean there can't be tons of overlap.

没错，你说得对。交集确实存在，而且作为双类型游戏设计师，关键是要明确你的目标受众群体。

No. And you're right. There there there can be overlap. There is overlap. And I think as a designer of both those types of games, it is the kind of thing where you have to figure out who your audience is.

你知道吗？这是为RPG玩家准备的吗？它会被归类为桌游还是卡牌游戏？会叫什么名字？大家的期待是什么？

You know? Is this for RPG players? Is this going to be labeled as a as a board game or a card game? What's it gonna be called? What are the expectations?

我们已经讨论过这个问题了，对吧？我们说过，如果你的游戏达不到目标受众的期望，他们就不会买账。他们不会喜欢，还会抱怨。

And we talked about that already. Right? We said, you know, if your game doesn't live up to the expectations of the audience that you're targeting, they are not going to buy into it. They're not gonna like it. They're gonna complain about it.

它会被历史记载为——你懂的——可能不该那么做。但你说得对，Eric。就RPG整体而言，那是游戏的框架。不过，是的，我会允许这种情况发生，因为通常有游戏主持人可以即时调整规则，生成随机数来判定，规则里没说不行，但我会设定难度值为16，你需要掷出超过16。

It'll go down in the annals of history as, you know, probably shouldn't have done what you did. But you're right, Eric. In terms of RPGs in general, it is that framework of play. But, yeah, I'll allow that to happen because there's a game master typically that can let things happen and adapt rules on the fly and can generate some random number to roll against to say, there's nothing in the rules that say you can't, but I'm gonna say it's like a a difficulty of 16. And so you need to roll over 16.

你的属性值是多少？哦，力量18？酷，那你会得到+2加值，对吧？

What's your stat? Oh, you have a strength of 18? Cool. Then you're gonna get a plus two. Right?

随便啦。你掷出14，加2就是16。你喊：太好了我成功了！这时主持人就得想：好吧...

And whatever. And you roll, you get a 14, plus two is 60. You go, yes. I made it. And the GM then now has to figure out, okay.

不，不，但他确实成功了。然后呢？正因为有人能不断重新解释规则，甚至制定新规则，角色扮演游戏才有这种自由度，形式也更灵活。

No. No. But he made it. What happens? And because there is somebody who can constantly reinterpret the rules, even make new rules up, yeah, I mean, role playing games have that luxury and are a little more free form.

即使是单人RPG或无主持人的RPG——这些更现代的RPG形式——严格来说你也可以随心所欲。毕竟没人会抱怨，因为RPG的目标通常和桌游不同。桌游的目标是赢，是得分，对吧？

Even within a solo RPG or a GM less RPG, which are more modern incarnations of RPGs, typically, technically, you can just do what you want. You know? You just nobody's nobody's gonna complain because the goal of an RPG typically isn't the same as a board game. Board game, your goal is to win, to score points. Right?

而角色扮演游戏通常旨在讲述一个好故事。

Whereas RPGs are typically to tell a good story.

故事。没错。

Story. Yep.

对吧？正是如此。并且经历一场精彩的冒险。有时候，大多数系统——哦不，不是大多数系统，而是现在更多现代系统倾向于这样认为：成功固然好，但失败却充满乐趣。

Right? Exactly. And have an amazing adventure. Sometimes and most systems oh, not most systems, but more modern systems now lean into that where it's like, yeah. Success is okay, but failure is hilarious.

对，失败很有趣。就像在《燃烧之轮》中，失败是你真正升级的唯一途径。对吧？嗯。

Right. Failure is fun. Or like in Burning Wheel, failure is the only way you actually level up. Right? Mhmm.

所以我确实认为角色扮演游戏中有更开放的系统，它们不一定更健壮，但更能适应变化。而桌游则不然。桌游是严格的系统，如果规则被错误解读就会极其脆弱，这就是为什么我们有像BGG这样的平台。对吧？人们会在那里提问，尤其是当游戏从不同语言翻译过来，或者某个图标看起来像某种意思但实际上并非如此时。

So I I I do think that there is a more open system in RPGs, and they're they're not necessarily more robust, but they're more adaptable to change. Whereas board games are not that. Board games are strict systems that are incredibly fragile if the rules are interpret interpreted the wrong way, which is why we have things like BGG. Right? Where people will ask questions especially when games are translated from different languages or an icon looks like it means something but doesn't really mean that.

没错。你会遇到所有这些情况，语言在规则解释中确实很重要。而且并非不重要——我用了个双重否定，就像个好老师那样，你懂的。但在角色扮演游戏中，它的重要性较低。因为归根结底，你们玩得开心吗？

Right. And you'll have all these things where language actually matters in the interpretation of the rules. And it doesn't not matter, using my double negatives here like a, you know, a good teacher I see. In RPGs, but it just matters less. Because at the end of the day, did you have fun?

角色扮演游戏真正的问题是：你们讲了个好故事吗？你们享受这个过程吗？抛开语言或规则不谈。嗯。

An RPG is the real question. Did you tell a good story? Did you enjoy yourself? Language aside or rules aside. Mhmm.

这就是规则存在的意义。如果把角色扮演游戏精简到最核心的要素，通常包括一个设定、创建角色的方式，其余部分基本上都是

And that's what the rules are made for. If you boil down an RPG to its bare minimum quintessential elements, it's usually like a setting, a way to create a character, and then all the rest of it is like

制造些许不可预测性，让故事显得新颖的方式。

A way to create some slight unpredictability so that the story seems fresh.

没错。关键在于什么是不可预测的，以及如何决定随机事件的结果？从很大程度上说，这就是所有RPG的本质。我正与一位作家和插画师合作，为她的艺术和书籍体系制作一款RPG。我们觉得，

Yeah. And, like, how how what is unpredictable and how you do you determine the outcomes of a random event? That's that's really all RPGs are in a in a very big way. I'm working with an author and illustrator right now and making an RPG for her art and book system. And we're like, yeah.

这个系统不需要比'成功与否'更复杂的机制，对吧？因为本质上所有RPG都在做这件事。我认为有些因素对RPG的影响远不及对桌游的影响。正如我所说，桌游对改动极其敏感。

We don't need this to be any crunchier than did it work or didn't it Right? Because that essentially is what you're doing in all RPGs more or less. Right? So I I think there are things that don't affect RPGs as much as they affect board games. Like I said, board games are very sensitive to change.

你在桌游中改动一个元素，就需要做大量调整。任何玩过万智牌超过一个赛季循环的玩家都深有体会——如果你参加比赛就会知道，每个系列、每套新卡牌都会出现新勘误。总有卡牌会被禁用，因为尽管万智牌体系极其庞大，某些设计仍会破坏平衡。而现在甚至没人说得清究竟有多少张卡牌存在。

You change one thing in a board game, and you now have to do a whole lot of work. And anybody who's ever played match at the gathering for more than one iteration of a cycle of a set understands that because if you play in tournament, then you know that every sets every set of cards, there's gonna be new errata. There's gonna be gar cards that get banned. There's gonna be all these things because the system, while magic is incredibly broad, some things break it. And it's hard to predict when there's I don't even know how many cards there are right now.

估计有数万张独立卡牌，而你必须考虑所有卡牌的平衡性。

Like, there's probably, like, tens of thousands of individual cards, and you have to account for all of them.

所有卡牌。没错。所以观察那些试图营造RPG体验的新游戏时，我研究了像《Vanguard》或《Aridia》这样的作品。

All of them. Yes. Exactly. So looking at some of the more recent games that are trying to, create a lot of that sort of RPG experience, I I I was looking at things like Vanguard or Aridia. Yeah.

是的。或者Vantage。抱歉，是Vantage。其实ISS Vanguard也是个不错的选择。

Yep. Or or Vantage. Excuse me. Vantage. ISS Vanguard as well actually is a good one.

还有《黑暗街区》可能也算。这些游戏似乎都想讲述一个RPG故事。当然，RPG最大的问题——其实也不算问题——就是它非常耗时，极其耗时，通常还需要很多人参与。桌游虽然也需要多人，但它们试图将所有内容浓缩到更短的时间内。所以我觉得这就是为什么这类游戏能满足我对RPG的渴望，又不必每周投入六到八小时甚至更长时间。

And the Dark Quarter maybe. All of those seem to wanna tell an RPG story. And, of course, the biggest problem with an RPG, and it's not really a problem, but it takes a lot of time, a lot of time, and usually many people. Board games still take many people, but they they try to condense everything down into a shorter period of time. And so that's I think that's part of this idea of being able to get my RPG itch but without having to spend six or eight hours or or whatever it is, you know, every week

没错。

Yeah.

去游玩。

To to play.

对。是的。容我倚老卖老地说，我玩RPG已经四十七年了，而我才53岁。这意味着我人生绝大部分时间都在玩RPG，最初是从《龙与地下城》开始，后来涉猎各种其他类型。实际上，我之所以接触桌游，正是因为沉迷RPG差点导致大学退学。

Yeah. Yes. And I'll I'll I'll pull my old man card here and say that, you know, I've been playing RPGs for now forty seven years of my life, and I'm only 53. So it's been the majority of the the vast majority of my life has been spent playing RPGs, specifically starting with, like, Dungeons and Dragons and then, you know, all the other things in between. But that is the reason actually why I got into board gaming was because I played RPGs so much that I almost failed out of university.

这个故事我常讲。老听众可能很熟悉——森当时沉迷RPG，整天构思吟游诗人下次该唱什么歌，满脑子都是这些念头，险些没能毕业。于是我戒掉了所有生活类游戏，包括《万智牌》《战锤》，但主要还是RPG。

This is a a story I tell a lot. So it's it's it's other people who've listened to me before probably know the story well that Sen was so caught up in RPGs and living in his head and trading the songs that his bard needs to sing the next time we played and thinking about all these things that he almost failed out of university. And so I gave up all the lifestyle games that I played. Like, I would play magic and Warhammer and mostly, though, RPGs. And so I gave it all up.

之后我一度很失落，因为生活中没了游戏。那时是九十年代大学时期，正值第一波被我们称为'德国游戏'的浪潮兴起。

And I then got really sad because there's no games in my life. But then this was you know, historically, this is in university, so the nineties, which is when the first wave of what we then called German games

对。

Right.

你知道的，偶然遇到的。对吧？我当时在用德语导入它们，然后，你知道，写在贴纸上，再把贴纸贴到我的卡片上。

You know, came across. Right? We I was importing them in German and, you know, writing, like, on stickers and sticking them to my cards and

是不是那个，游戏柜？那是其中一个游戏柜吗？就是那个翻译规则的网站上的？是的。

Was it the know, the game cabinet? Was that one of the the game cabinet? It was on the one the websites that translated the the rules? Yeah.

对，对。游戏柜和那些家伙们。我是说，我现在还能看到他们。他们还在这个行业里。

Yep. Yep. The game cabinet and all those guys. I I mean, I still see them around. They're they're still in the industry.

总之，所以，是的，我放弃了角色扮演游戏，转向了桌游，因为桌游满足了很多需求。虽然不是全部，但很多，比如，你知道的，聪明才智、游戏性、围坐在桌边的社交性。而且我可以把它们收起来，关上盒子，放到架子上，不用再想它们了。所以我看到了传统风格桌游和RPG之间的巨大区别。但你提到的战役游戏之类的，说实话，当人们说‘哦，我玩RPG’时，他们实际上指的是电脑RPG。

Anyway, so, yeah, I gave up role playing games for board games because board games scratched a lot of the itches. Not all of them, but a lot of them, like, you know, the cleverness, the the play, the socialness around the table. And I could put them away, close the box, put them on the shelf, and not have to think about them anymore. So I I see the big difference in like a classic style board game versus an RPG. But what you're talking about in terms of like a campaign game and things like that, those honestly, when people say, oh, I play RPGs, and they're really talking about, like, a computer RPG.

他们指的是更像《最终幻想》或《辐射》那样的游戏。那种RPG更注重升级、属性变化、武器熟练度、装备，以及管理你的物品栏。这些都挺酷的，但那并不是我喜欢RPG的原因。我喜欢RPG是因为它能让我发挥创造力、讲故事，我的角色生活在这个世界里，仅仅因为存在就能改变那个世界。对吧？

And they're talking about more of, like, a Final Fantasy or a Fallout and things like that. That end of RPGs where it's more about leveling up and, you know, stats changes and weapons proficiencies and equipment and, you know, managing your inventory. That's all cool and whatnot, but that's actually not why I loved RPGs. I loved RPGs for being creative and telling stories, and my character lived in this world and could change that world by just existing in it. Right?

嗯。所以，我个人认为——这只是我的看法——那些试图模仿RPG的桌游，如果它们理解的RPG和我理解的一样，即拥有一定的叙事控制权、在故事中扮演角色，但能做出在既定框架内不可预测的决定，那么它们做得并不好。对吧？如果只是像这种二选一的决定，比如走左边的路还是右边的路，那确实有趣，就像选择你自己的冒险游戏，但这真的算是角色扮演吗？

Mhmm. And so I don't think personally, this is me, I don't think that board games that are trying to be RPGs are actually doing a very good job of it if what you think an RPG is like I think it is, which is, you know, having some narrative control and playing playing a character, in a story, but being able to make decisions that aren't predictable in a set. Right? If it's just like this binary decision of do you go down the left road or the right road, I mean, that's fun. It's like a choose your adventure game, but is it truly role playing?

我想说的是，从高层次来看，这并不算是。我玩这些游戏时还觉得有趣吗？当然。但我知道这不是角色扮演。

And I would say it's not, you know, at a high level. Do I still have fun playing those games? Sure. But I know it's not role playing.

这不是一回事。

It's not the same thing.

这是R-O-L-L扮演，对吧？但这是R-O-L-E扮演吗？我认为程度差远了。

It's r no. It's r o l l playing. Right? But is it r o l e playing? And I would say not as much.

差远了。你仍然可以进入角色之类的，但我不会事后去思考角色的背景故事。也不会去阅读大量典籍，比如真的去研读《盗贼高阶手册》，然后说当我升到三级盗贼时，我要选择这个技能。

Not as much. You still can get into character and all that kind of stuff, but I don't go later and think about the character's backstory. And I don't go and, you know, read copious amounts of tomes, like literal tomes about, like, reading, like, the thief's high end book and say, when I become a level three thief, this is what I'm gonna pick.

没错。

Right.

因为大多数桌游的机制体系是有限的，毕竟它是桌游而非角色扮演游戏。比如你玩《吸血鬼：避世血族》时，会有整本书专门讲述你所属的氏族。

You know, because the the the world or the well, even the game mechanic system that we play within for most board games is limited because it's it's a board game versus a role playing game where if you played, like, say, Vampire the Masquerade, there are whole books that are dedicated to, like, the clan that you're in.

确实。

Right.

对吧？在《龙与地下城》第三版里，他们甚至推出了整本扩展书，比如专门讲游侠的书。如果你想当游侠，或许该买这本书，里面全是游侠能做的扩展内容。但那可是180页的额外内容啊。

Right? And in D and D, like, third edition D and D, they had, like, whole splat books that were just, this is the ranger book. And if you wanna be a ranger, maybe you should buy this book. And now you can do all these expanded things that rangers could do. But it's like a 180 pages of extra stuff.

对吧？所以我觉得它们并不相同，只是类似。可能满足部分人的需求，但就像你提到的《天方夜谭》——我从来不喜欢这类游戏，因为它们在我眼里算不上真正的叙事游戏。

Right? So, yeah, I I don't I don't think they're the same. They're similar. They might scratch some of the itches for some people, but I've never like you mentioned Arabian Nights. I've never liked those kind of games because they they're not really to me storytelling games.

更像是故事朗读游戏。不是说它们无趣，作为特定类型确实有趣。但如果我想参与故事创作或成为故事的一部分，我不愿只是读段落。明白吗？

They're more story reading games. And I don't think they're unfun. I think they're fun for what they are. But if I wanna tell the story or be part of the story being told, I don't wanna read a paragraph. Right?

我不想做决定、读段落、再做决定、再读段落。我不认为这和角色扮演是一回事。

I don't wanna make a decision, read a paragraph, make a decision, read a paragraph. I don't I don't find that to be the same as role playing.

嗯，我能理解。我们现在处于一个…

Yeah. So I can see that. We're at a we're

分歧点上，因为很多人觉得那种游戏就像角色扮演游戏。要我说，这些人八成从没玩过真正优秀的角色扮演游戏吧。可能吧，谁知道呢。

at a crossroads here because a lot of people think that's, oh, that's like a role playing game. It's like, obviously, you've never played a really good role playing game, I guess. I don't know. Possible. Yeah.

是啊，完全有可能。

Yeah. It's entirely possible.

当你看到《天方夜谭》甚至《Vantage》时，我也遇到了同样的问题——虽然我不打算深入细节，但我发现了一栋房子。我迫降在这颗星球上，身为学者，我发现了这栋房子，并与居住在那里的外星人交谈。

When when you look at, like, Arabian Nights and even in Vantage, I had the same issue with Vantage where so I I I'm not gonna go too deep into detail, but I I went to the I've discovered this house. I've crashed landed on this planet. I'm a scholar. I've discovered this house. I talked to the aliens that live there.

他们看起来非常友好。当我进入他们的房子后，出现了一系列可选操作，其中一个是‘设置路障’。我当时想，哦，可能有东西要来了，我们需要保护这栋房子。

They seem very friendly. And then I'm inside their house, and there's a list of options that I can do. And one of them is barricade. And I'm thinking, oh, something's coming. We want to defend this house.

我选择了设置路障。结果发现，我实际上是把外星人堵在了他们的卧室里，好让我能洗劫他们的房子——这完全不是我的本意。《天方夜谭》在我看来是段有趣的体验，但这类情况比比皆是。

I'm going to choose barricade. So I choose barricade. Turns out what I've done is I have barricaded the aliens in their bedroom so I can ransack their house, which was totally not what my intention was going to be. Yeah. And Arabian Nights, in my mind, is a is a fun experience, but it's rampant with that.

每次你选择一个选项，结果永远与你预想的截然不同。所以你

Every time you pick an option, it's never what you think it's actually going to be. So you

最终某种程度上

end up sort of

体验了随之而来的后果。

experiencing what happens after that.

我认为这正是人们喜欢它的原因，我那些喜欢它的朋友就爱这种混乱感。就像‘哦，这根本不是我想的’——而在我看来，如果我是故事里的角色，我当然想折腾看看会发生什么，但至少我声称要做的事应该就是我实际做的事。

I think that's what people like about it, that my friends who like it like the chaos of it. Like the, oh, that's not what I whereas in my mind, if I'm a character in a story, yes, I wanna f f around and find out what happens, but at least what I said that I did is what I did.

对。

Right.

然后接下来可能会发生混乱。对吧？但有时候就是这样，嗯，你的角色做了这个。这不是我想做的。

And then chaos can happen after that. Right? But sometimes it's like, yeah. Your character does this. It's not what I wanted to do.

没错，正是如此。所以让我

That's right. Exactly. So so let me

我我嗯。

I I yeah.

让我让我用Aridia来补充说明这一点。所以我我不确定你是否已经看过Aridia了。它还很遥远。

Let me let me put the other end of this with Aridia. So I I don't know if you've seen Aridia yet. It far off.

我还没玩过，但我我肯定见过它，因为它曾经很热门，像是

I haven't played it, but I I've definitely seen it because it was in the hotness for, like

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊，几周左右吧。

Yeah. Weeks or something.

这游戏最妙的地方在于，你看，你有这些小地图，当你把角色移动到建筑时，会抽出一张卡片，上面写着店里那个人对你说的话，然后你选择回应方式之类的。他可能会说‘去干某件事’，于是你就去执行。等你回来时，实际上会用另一张卡片替换原先那张——你能隐约感受到背后的计算机编程逻辑，但此时情境状态已经改变了。

So what's fascinating about this game is, you know, you've got your little maps, and when you move your dude to, like, the building, you pull out a card, and it tells you, you know, what the the guy at the the shop there, what he says to you, and you pick your options and whatnot. And so he might say, oh, you know, go do something. And so you go do something. You come back. You actually replace that card with a different card that essentially you can think you can see the computer programming behind it, but now there's a different state for the thing.

没错。嗯。这样故事实际上会根据你的行动推进。当然，目前你能采取的行动范围还是相对有限的。

Exactly. Mhmm. And and so the story actually gets to kinda move along based on the actions that you perform. Now granted, the actions you can perform are still reasonably narrow.

非常受限。确实。毕竟游戏编剧无法预测所有可能性。

Very limited. Yeah. But Because the the game writer can't predict everything that's gonna happen.

正是。但这种随时间演变的机制确实提供了既有趣又新奇的体验。不像某些游戏，你回到相同场景时面对的永远是同样的选择。

Exactly. But it's a real interesting and kind of fun sort of experience in that it evolves over time. Yes. As opposed to some of the other games where you go back to the same space and you have the same choices again kind of thing.

对。我认为这至少是对叙事学的一种实践——叙事因角色行动而改变。我超爱这点。虽然系统是有点笨拙？确实。

Yeah. And I think that is at least doing some service to narratology, right, where the narrative changes depending on character actions. I love that. Is it a clunky system? Yes.

很耗纸张？没错。设计师设计的内容如果只玩一次就永远看不到？是的。那些卡片大概有50%到60%会是这种情况。

Does it use a lot of paper? Yes. Are there things that the designer designed that you will never see if you only play it once? Yes. It's like probably like 50 or 60% of those cards.

你永远不会看到那些内容，因为你没有做出那些选择，在这类非线性的游戏中，那些路径通常对你关闭了——我不想冒犯任何人说它是线性游戏，但它确实存在分支路线。对，没错。

You're not gonna ever see them because you didn't make those choices, and those paths become closed to you typically in those style of games where you design it down like a it's not on rails. I won't insult anybody and say it's on rails. But there are branching path. Yeah. Yeah.

一旦选择了某条路径，其他分支有时就会关闭。明白吗？这样你就看不到为那条分支设计的内容。要想回到那个分支，你必须让所有其他选择都保持一致才能到达那个决策点。所以即使你玩第二遍第三遍，实际看到它的几率也非常低。

And once a path is chosen, those other branches may sometimes close. Right? And so you won't see any of the content that was made for that branch. And to go back to that branch, you have to make everything else the same to get to that decision. So your chances of actually seeing it are very low even if you play it a second or third time Yeah.

这取决于具体游戏。对吧？

Depending on the game. Right?

对。对。对。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

所以这很有趣。但我喜欢他们这样做，因为这确实呼应了那个理念——世界比你角色所处的范围更广阔。世界确实...

So it's it's interesting. But I like that that they're doing that because it does speak to that need to say that the world is bigger than your characters. The world Yes.

某种程度上在演变

Kind of evolves

游戏世界并不围绕你的角色运转。

game doesn't revolve around your characters.

是啊。没错。即使你不参与，事情也会继续发展。对。

Yeah. Right. It moves on even if you don't kind of thing. Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

那么让我们换个角度看看。与其试图复制RPG游戏，不如想想在游戏中我们能做哪些RPG元素？我总是会想到这个例子——玩《萤火虫》桌游时，里面有非法任务，也有不道德的任务。

So let's take a slightly different look at it then. Instead of trying to replicate an RPG, you know, what can we do RPG wise in games? And I I always fall back to this. So playing the Firefly board game. You know, there are for illegal tasks, there are illegal tasks and there are also illegal, immoral tasks.

一般来说，不道德的任务报酬更高，但风险也更大。比如说，如果你...

And generally speaking, the immoral tasks will get you more money, but they have a little bit more risks. For instance, if you

船员会有高风险和高回报。对。

have High a crew risk and reward. Yeah.

没错。但如果你的船员有道德观，他们就不愿意做这种事。他们可能会离开之类的。当我玩游戏时，特别是扮演剧中某些角色时，我会避开不道德的行为，不是因为后果，而是出于剧情考虑。我不想...

Yeah. But if you have a moral crew, they won't want to do it. They could potentially leave and and whatnot. And when I play the game, especially if I'm, you know, some of the characters from the show, I avoid the immoral actions, not because of the consequences, but just story wise. I don't wanna be Yeah.

你知道，比如运送奴隶这种事。

You know, carrying slaves and stuff.

就像，谢泼德不会这样做。

Like like, Shepard wouldn't do this.

对，没错。对吧？实际上在游戏里，你可以把谢泼德留在船上，这不会影响你懂的，你可以继续执行任务。只是用不了他的装备。

Right. Exactly. Right? And and and realistically, in the game, you can keep Shepard on the ship, and it won't impact you know, you then you can go off and do the the the mission. You just don't get to use his stuff.

因为这个IP背后的强大影响力，它改变了我游戏中的选择，因为这样对我来说更有趣。我觉得这种概念很迷人——你会因为游戏的主题而改变玩法，你的选择也因此受到影响。

Because of the strength of the the IP really behind it, it alters the choices I make in the game because it's more fun for me that way. And I really find that sort of a concept fascinating where you would alter well, you play the game because of the theming that's going on. Your choices are influenced that way.

是的。我认为这触及了角色扮演的本质。就像你把自己代入这些你熟知且喜爱的角色，因为你熟悉并热爱这个IP和剧集。如果你对这些角色没有投入感或了解，可能就达不到这种效果。RPG游戏通常让你创建自己的角色，除非是短篇或展会冒险，那时你会拿到预设角色。

Yeah. And I think that gets to actually role playing. That that is like you're putting yourself in the positions of these characters that you know and love because you know and love the IP and the show. That may not work if you don't have any vested interest in those characters or knowledge of the characters or pre knowledge or literacy about those characters. So one of the things that RPGs do is they make you create your character typically, unless you're doing a one shot or a con adventure where you kinda get something handed to you.

说实话，很多玩展会游戏的人会想：'我要做些疯狂的事，反正这角色死活无所谓'。当然好的展会设计会让角色持续发展，有些巧妙方法能保持玩家对角色的投入感...但重点是，如果你通过角色创建系统投入了时间，建立了情感联系，了解背景故事——就像演员问导演'我的动机是什么？'

And in those cases, to be honest, a lot of people who play con games, they're just like, I'm gonna do all the the nutty things I would never do with my own character because I don't really care if this character lives or dies, right, in a lot of cases. Now, some cool con design means that the character keeps on going, and there's there's some I won't get into it, but there's some really neat ways that you can have people maintain a vested interest in their character, in a con game or a one shot. But, anyways, you can edit all that out. So, yeah, I I think that if you have a character creation system where you have spent some time and you had now have a vested interest in that character, you know their backstory, you kind of you know how an actor's ask, well, they ask the director, well, what's my motivation?

没错。

Right.

对吧？这就是我们代入角色时的思考过程。所以桌游角色常被简化成套路模板，这根据情境可能存在问题。

Right? That's what we're all doing when we're trying to put ourselves into the role of somebody. And this is why often we relegate characters, especially from board games to like tropes. Right? Which is potentially dangerous depending on where you're going.

但从美术风格就能看出端倪，比如通过角色种族就能判断这是款奇幻游戏。你知道的，这个角色是这样玩的，那个角色是那样表现的。对吧？比如，哦，他是个精灵。

But you can tell from like the art, You might be able to tell if it's a fantasy game from the race of the characters. You know, this is how this character plays. This is how this character acts. Right? That, oh, he's an elf.

所以他多半傲慢自大。会点小魔法，喜欢用弓箭。动作敏捷。对吧？这是个矮人。

Therefore, he's probably snooty. He has a little bit of magic, likes a bow. He's fast. Right? This is a dwarf.

哦，他脾气暴躁。说话带苏格兰口音，因为所有矮人都

Oh, he's grumpy. He speaks with a Scottish accent because all dwarfs

用这个。

use this.

他可能使用锤子或斧头，而且非常、非常防守型。是个防守型玩家。但要是狂暴起来，他能杀光所有人。明白吗？我们在桌游里就用这些套路帮玩家代入角色。

And he probably uses a hammer or an axe and as is really, like, defensive. He's a defensive player. But if he goes berserk, he's gonna kill everybody. You know? And so we use those tropes in board games to get people into those characters.

有时候这些设定在向玩家解释规则时特别省事。对吧？我们都知道精灵角色会比矮人移动更快。这根本不用解释。对吧。

And sometimes they do a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to translating rules to people. Right? We all know that the elf character is going to move faster than the dwarf character. We know that just in our heads. Right.

因为我们早就对这些种族有既定认知。告诉你，要是打破这个规则，玩家绝对会质疑。比如凭什么这个矮人能和精灵移速相同甚至更快？除非他有魔法或者特殊靴子之类。从主题叙事逻辑来看根本说不通。

Because we have this preconceived notions of what they are. And let me tell you, if you break that rule, people will question you. Like, how why is this dwarf moving the same speed or faster than this elf without magic or without, like, these special boots or whatever? Like, it makes no sense in the Thematically. Diegetics of that theme.

对吧？所以，是的，我们可以利用这两点对我们有利。但我说它危险的原因是，有时我们太沉迷于这些套路，其中一些套路有点负面，它们就像是，嗯，我们会认为是生物本质主义的那种本质化。所以要意识到，你可以使用它们，但有时候，你知道，把所有的兽人都设定为邪恶的，对那些可怜的兽人来说未必是件好事。明白吗？

Right? So, yeah, it's it's a thing where we can use those two in our favor. But why I said it was dangerous is because sometimes we get so caught up in these tropes that some of those tropes are kinda negative, and they're like, well, we would consider, like, essentialist in terms of biological essentialism. So just be aware that, you know, you can use them, but sometimes, you know, making all orcs evil, well, that's not necessarily the greatest thing to do to those poor orcs. You know?

总之，没错。

Anyway Right.

当你谈到构建角色时，我想起了游戏《Heroes Wanted》。这是一款超级英雄游戏。你一开始会拿到几张卡片，将上半部分和下半部分组合起来，这样就创造了你的英雄。然后在接下来的游戏中，你就使用这个创造出来的角色。是的。

When you were talking about sort of building the character, it reminded me of the game Heroes Wanted. So it's a superhero game. But you start with getting a handful of cards and you put sort of the top half and the bottom half together, and that creates your hero. And then for the rest of the game, you use that creation that you have. So Yeah.

老套但经典的阶段。

Good old fashioned phase.

是的。而且它们通常有点搞笑和滑稽之类的。有趣的是，它给了你一个角色的起点，你可以——我是说，游戏本身并没有太多角色扮演的部分，一旦你进入游戏，这是一种奇怪的二分法。是的，很有趣。

Yeah. And they're often kind of funny and goofy and and whatnot. And it's interesting because it gives you a starting point of a character that you can kind of I mean, there's not a lot of role playing in the game in and of itself once you get to it, which is a weird sort of dichotomy that the game has. Yeah. It's fun.

但我想，因为哪怕只是做了那个决定——你知道，你选择了哪些卡片组合。我不记得角色是怎么生成的，是只拿两张卡片，还是你可以自己决定？

But I think I think because you you put even just that one decision into, you know, which cards are you combining. I can't remember how the characters is it just you get two cards, or do you get to decide?

我想你会拿到几张卡片然后选一张。已经有一段时间没玩了。

I think you get a handful of cards and you pick one. It's been a

没错，我也这么认为。对于正在听的设计师们，这是个很好的设计建议：给玩家选择权。哪怕只是一点点选择的空间。

big Yeah. I think so too. I mean, this is a good design note for any designers listening. Give your players a choice. You know, a little bit of a choice.

不必很复杂，就像展示三张卡牌选两张——这就构成了你的角色。只要做一个决定，玩家就会产生代入感。他们会迫切想知道：我的选择能否帮助我赢得比赛或在游戏中表现出色？

It doesn't have to be long. It could be just like, here's three cards, pick two. That's your character. But if you even make one decision, now you are invested in that. And you you you want to see, did my decision allow me to win the game or do well in the game?

这种机制会让玩家期待下一次选择。比如下次面临类似决策时，他们会想『我不选速度了，要选力量，因为上次力量属性在游戏中表现更好』，诸如此类的思考。

And it gets you invested in the next time. Oh, next time if I have to make make a similar type of decision, I won't take speed. I'll take strength because strength seem to do better in the game than speed. Right? Or whatever.

确实。

Right.

正是这类设计能让玩家真正投入到游戏角色的塑造中。电子游戏也是如此——马里奥之所以缺乏代入感，就是因为他总在摔死。但当你像《博德之门》那样（基本是电脑上对第四版D&D的模拟，再混搭些第五版元素）创建角色时...

And those types of things are really what does get you invested in the characterization of an avatar within a game. And you'll see that with video games too. Right? Like, Mario is so throwaway because he falls and dies all the time. But, you know, when you create a character in Baldur's Gate, which is obviously very much a emulation of roughly four e D and D fourth edition on the computer, plus and minus a little bit of other stuff from five e.

其实第五版的元素相当多，不过战斗系统非常像第四版。总之玩家会对这些角色产生强烈归属感。比如我21岁和17岁的孩子，他们会滔滔不绝地讨论自己的角色——

Well, a lot of stuff from five e. Yeah. But the combat system is very, very, like, four e. Anyways, you are vested in those characters. Like my kids who are 21 and 17, they talk about their characters.

讨论角色升到多少级，回忆为角色做过的每个决定。正因为拥有决策权，他们才会对这些角色念念不忘，明白吗？

They talk about how high they've got them level. They talk about all the decisions they've made within those characters. And it's only because they get to make decisions about those characters that they remember anything about them. Right?

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

当我们做出选择，那些有意义、有影响力的选择时，我们就是在创造故事。我们在创造记忆。我们在创造所有发生的这些事情。而当这些关乎游戏角色和叙事时，我们可能就更多是在进行角色扮演（role playing）而非掷骰游戏（roll playing），对吧？

When we make choices, meaningful, impactful choices, we're creating story. We're creating memory. We're creating all these things that happen. And when it's about characters and the narrative of the game, that's when we're probably doing more r o l e playing than r o l l playing. Right?

你可能对某些游戏有美好的回忆。你可能记得游戏的某些片段，甚至可能记得整个游戏的剧情。但当你作为玩家亲自塑造那个叙事或角色时，它们就获得了不同的生命力。比如我有朋友会滔滔不绝地给我讲他们12级木精灵德鲁伊如何野性变身的故事——这就是为什么《Critical Role》能火起来，各位。

You might have some great memories of games. You might have great memories of portions of games, and maybe even you might remember the narrative of a game. But when you actually shape that narrative or shape the character yourself as a player, that's when they take on a different life. Like, I have friends who will literally tell me regale me with stories of their, like, you know, I have this level's 12 wood elf druid who did this wild shaped thing and, you know, tell me great stories about it. That's why that's why critical role's a thing, everybody.

对吧？因为人们喜欢故事。无论高矮胖瘦、何种肤色信仰的人类，我们都热爱故事。所以角色扮演游戏本质上是故事游戏，没错吧？

Right? Because people like stories. Humans of all shapes and sizes, colors, and creeds, we love story. And so role playing games are quintessentially story games. Right?

关于故事的游戏。有时候你甚至能改变历史的进程——而历史本身就是故事。通过玩游戏，通过做决策，故事就在那里。

Games about a story. You are sometimes able to change the course of history, which is a story. Right? It's in there. By playing the game, by making decisions.

我觉得这才是真正有冲击力的地方，说来好笑——埃里克，说到故事，你看过《地城闯关者卡尔》系列吗？我正好快读完了。

And I think that's what feels really impactful, which is hilarious because, I am finishing I don't Eric, have you read any of Dungeon Crawler Carl, speaking of, like, story?

我看过。读完第一本了，昨天刚从图书馆借到第二本。

I I have. I read the first book, and I literally just got the second book yesterday from the library.

我正在完成最后一本书，此刻就在听它，耳机虽然没连着任何设备——开玩笑的，我没那么做，那样太失礼了。

I am finishing the last book as we speak. I'm currently listening to it now on these headphones while these headphones are connected to no. I'm kidding. I'm not doing that. That'd be rude.

我可不粗鲁。现在正听着最后一本，简直爱不释手。有趣的是它有点像MMORPG的角色扮演层次，但又不同，因为你能听到角色的人生和他们所做的抉择。而这正是好故事的魅力所在，对吧？

I am not rude. I am listening to the last one now, and I I could not put it down. And the funny thing about it is it is kind of that MMORPG level of role playing, except it's not because you hear about the lives of the character and the decisions that they're that they're making. But that's what tells a good story. Right?

之所以是个好故事，就在于你能看到角色们的决策过程。他们会讨论装备选择，比如保留还是更换，还有职业、种族等各种选择。对了，各位听众，如果喜欢《地牢爬行者卡尔》，Renegade Games将推出相关桌游和RPG，绝对精彩。目前Kickstarter上甚至还有第二部漫画的众筹项目。

That's why it is a good story because you see the decisions that the characters are making. They talk about the gear they choose, you know, whether or not they are going to keep this gear or change this out or the the choices they make in the classes and the races and all these things. Oh, by the way, everybody, if you're listening and you like dungeon crawler carl, Renegade Games will be publishing board games and RPGs about that world. So it's gonna be phenomenal. I I think currently, there's actually even, like, a comic book on Kickstarter for the second comic.

其实我最初对阅读LitRPG很犹豫，毕竟作为设计师我对RPG很较真。我总在想：他们能处理好这个类型吗？如果太正经反而会显得奇怪吧。

Anyways, I was I was actually very reticent to start reading lit RPG because I take RPGs pretty seriously as a designer. And I was wondering, like, how are they gonna do this? It's like, it would seem so weird if it was serious.

确实。

Right.

但读了《地牢爬行者卡尔》后，我立刻被征服了——因为它完全不走严肃路线。全是戏谑调侃，拿所有元素开玩笑，和传统角色扮演游戏毫无关系。它既调侃RPG本身，也戏弄老玩家熟悉的各种套路。

And then I read Dungeon Crawler Carl, and I was like, oh, I'm totally in because it's 100% not serious. It's totally tongue in cheek. It makes jokes of everything. It is completely irrelevant to role playing games. Like, it it makes a joke of role playing games, but also all the tropes that you would know and love if you're a role player.

你会边读边笑：太搞笑了，因为你都懂这些梗。

You're like, yeah. That's hilarious because you get it.

对。

Right.

所以，是的，我我加入。作为一个以写书和小说之类为乐的作家，我现在可能会写一本轻小说RPG书，因为这就像是，哦，我明白这从何而来了。对吧？因为我之前读的很多作品，比如，即使你看动漫或者，你知道的，韩漫。比如，《我独自升级》基本上就是轻小说RPG，但它是动画形式的。

So, yeah, I I am in. As a writer, who writes books and novels and things like that for funsies, I may write a lit RPG book now because it's like, oh, I see where this is coming from. Right? Because a lot of the work that I was reading before like, if you even if you watch, like, anime or, you know, Manhwa. So, like, solo leveling is pretty much lit RPG, but it's, like, animated.

而且有很多动漫、漫画和耽美，比如中国和日本版本的漫画，也就是日本的漫画。专注于这种叙事风格，角色知道自己的等级，知道自己的技能，知道他们还需要10点经验值才能达到下一个技能等级。这很迷人，因为我们很多人都是在一个从玩家视角看这些的世界中长大的，当我们玩《最终幻想》或《时空之轮》或者，你知道的，《博德之门》之类的游戏时。对吧？任何魂类游戏，我们都有属性。

And there's a lot of anime and manhua and Danhua, like the Chinese and Japanese versions of manga, which is the Japanese version of manga. Focusing on this style of storytelling where the characters know their levels and they know their skills and they they know that they need 10 more experience points to get to the next skill level. It's fascinating, because we a lot of us have grown up in a world where we see that from the player side when we're playing games like Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger or, you know, Baldur's Gate or any of them. Right? Any of the souls games, we have stats.

我们理解这些东西以及它们如何运作。所以，是的，我我认为现在确实有一种向文学的跨界，而且我认为这显然也会反过来影响游戏，无论是RPG还是桌游、卡牌游戏。我认为这在一定程度上让这种跨界变得可行，比如创造出那些混合型游戏，这真的既有趣又迷人。对吧？有些游戏在某种程度上确实同时满足了两种需求。

We understand those things and how they work. So, yeah, I I think there's a real crossover into literature now, and I think that's gonna it's obviously crossing back into the games, both RPGs and board games, card games. And it's just making, I think, that crossover work to some extent, like, to get those hybridized games, which is really interesting and fascinating too. Right? That some games kinda do scratch both issue itches in a in a way.

所以你说的两件事让我印象深刻。首先，你简短地提到了第四版D&D。我发现第四版D&D最迷人的一点是它融入了很多桌游和可以说是MMORPG的概念。但我的意思是，你真的有卡片来代表你的能力。当你使用它们时，你会翻转或标记它们，或者类似的操作，我要指出的是，在第五版中这种设计逐渐消失了，虽然核心概念还在，但我认为它已经——

So two things that you had said that kinda jumped off to me. First of all, you were you mentioned just briefly fourth edition D and D. And one of the things that I found fascinating about fourth edition D and D was that it implemented a lot of board game and arguably MMORPG concepts into it. But I mean, you you literally had cards of what your powers were. When you spent them, you flipped them or tapped them or whatever, which I will note that kind of faded away with fifth edition where you still have center of the same thing, but I it wasn't

我是说，我不认为它消失了。我觉得更像是被彻底剔除了。

mean, mean, I don't I don't think it faded away. Think it is like gutted from it.

有道理。但这很有趣——说实话，我玩过不少第四版。一开始它让我感到困扰，后来就不了，因为它感觉稍微有点限制性。你知道吗？

Fair enough. But it was an interesting it was an interesting and I'll be honest with you. I played a reasonable amount of fourth edition. And at first, it bothered me and then it didn't because it felt like it was slightly more limiting. You know?

为什么我的锤击突然变成了一种需要主动使用的技能？

Why is my attack with the hammer suddenly a power that I use kind of thing?

对啊。为什么这变成了一次性技能，还得短暂休息后才能再次使用？

Yeah. Why why is it something I can only use and I have to have a short rest before I can use it again?

没错。确实。

Right. Right.

把卡牌翻过来看。对吧？

Flip the card over. Right?

正是这样。

Exactly.

不。你说得对。我觉得很多传统角色扮演玩家都抵触第四版，因为它更像棋盘战棋游戏，战术性棋盘游戏的模式。但那些愿意接受它本质的人，确实玩得很开心。实际上我认为，如果他们当初把它宣传为带有角色决策元素的棋盘游戏或桌面战棋系统——就像任务间隙做些角色选择，然后继续战斗那样——

No. And you're right. And I think a lot of people who were traditional role players, like, bounced off of fourth edition because it was more like a board game wargame, tactical board game type situation. But people who were, like, willing to see it for what it was, they really enjoyed it. And I actually think that if they had marketed it as a board game or as a tabletop wargaming system that had a little bit of decisions, like, in between the missions, where it's just like, do combat and then make some decisions about your characters

确实。

Right.

屏幕之外。就像《魔法风云会》里的卡组构筑。对吧？

Off screen. Like deck building in magic. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

那可能是实现并推广它的最佳方式。我认为这就是威世智推出的猛袭系统的由来，它由我的朋友Nick Yu和我在罗切斯特千年游戏店的朋友Travis Severance设计。他们没有采用第四版规则，而是基于D&D——因为是D&D授权产品——他们说，何不直接打造一个战术战斗系统？然后你在游戏间做出升级选择，接着进行更多战斗。

That would have been probably the best way to do that and have it adopted. And I think that's what happened with the onslaught system that came out from WizKids designed by my friend Nick Yu and my friend Travis Severance who owns Millennium Games in Rochester. They took not fourth edition, but they they took D and D because it's a D and D licensed product. And they said, why don't we just make, like, this, you know, tactical battle system? And then you make decisions between the games to, like, level up things, and then you go and do some more battles.

因为有些人就喜欢战斗，这也是我对《龙与地下城》的困扰——所有内容都太侧重战斗了

Because some people just like the fighting, which is, you know, kind of my problem with Dungeons and Dragons is everything is so fighting focused

确实。

Right.

即便我也喜欢战斗和对抗，但这不是我想讲述的故事类型。我不认为这是唯一能讲的故事类型。但D&D非常专注于此，这源于它的历史。如果你了解D&D的历史，它源自桌面战争游戏《链甲》，而《链甲》又源自拿破仑战争等战争游戏。所以D&D本质上是在思考：如何让这个奇幻化？对吧？

That if that's not the type of stories that I like to tell, as much as I like battle and combat and all that kind of stuff, I don't think that's the only type of story you can tell. But D and D is very focused on that, and that comes from the history of D and D. If you know the history of D and D, it comes from chain mail, which is a tabletop war game, and then that comes from other war games like Napoleonics and stuff like that. So D and D was just like, how do we make this fantasy? Right?

《链甲》的奇幻版。它根植于战争游戏，这点显而易见。就像你头发长出来后，发梢会露出原本的发色。

Chain mail but fantasy. And it has its roots in wargaming, and it shows. Right? Just like Yep. When your hair grows out and you see the color at the end and you see, like, the roots.

D&D的根源深深植根于战争游戏，比如拿破仑式的战斗系统，这无所谓好坏，事实就是如此。如果你想讲述不同类型的故事，还有更多独立游戏，老实说，除了D&D之外几乎都是。如果真要计较金钱成本，即便是其他最大的RPG游戏也仍属独立范畴。我为其中许多游戏写过内容，它们依然是独立游戏。

D and D's roots are very much into, like, war games, like Napoleonic style battle systems, which is not good or bad. It just is. And so if you're looking to tell different types of stories, there are more indie games, which is quite honestly everything except D and D pretty much. If you really wanna get down to brass taxes in dollars and cents, even the biggest of RPGs other than that is really still indie. And I've written for many of them, and they're still indie.

总之，这些游戏会专注于讲述特定故事。许多小型独立游戏，比如香蕉和我制作的《交界处》《民谣与宴会厅》，就是想讲述移民的故事。明白吗？这些游戏机制都围绕着你作为移民的经历展开。对吧？

Anyway, they they will focus on telling specific stories. A lot of the smaller indies, like the one one that Banana and I made, Junction, Ballad, and the Banquet Hall, is really just we wanna tell stories of immigrants. Right? And these mechanics are all about, you know, you being an immigrant. Right?

人们不理解你的语言，你自己的家人、后代，比如你的孩子和孙子孙女，说不好你从祖国带来的母语。对吧？所以游戏机制反映了我们希望玩家在角色扮演系统中获得的体验，它们强化了某些感受等等。而D&D基本上就是大量战斗。对吧？

People not understanding your language, your own family, your own progeny, like your kids and your grandkids not speaking as well as you do the the tongue that you brought over from the mother country. Right? So the game's mechanics reflect the experience that we want the players to have in the role playing system, and they accentuate certain feelings and whatnot. Whereas D and D is basically a lot of battle. Right?

如果你看看第一版高级规则，就会发现获得经验的唯一方式就是杀死怪物、收集战利品和

If you look at like first edition advanced, it's like the only way you got experience was by killing things and collecting and

拿到那些钱。没错。

getting that money. Yep.

对吧？是的。没错。这就好比，如果我是一个创作歌曲的吟游诗人，难道不该因为写了首好歌而获得经验吗？

Right? Yep. Right. And it's like, okay. And if I'm, you know, a bard who writes a song, shouldn't I get experience because I wrote a cool song?

难道我不该因为引诱了某位朝臣或国王，成功魅惑他们说出进入卫兵营房的秘密口令而获得经验吗？不，除非我杀了那些卫兵，否则什么都得不到。

Should I get experience because I I lured a, you know, one of the courtiers or the king and was able to charm them into telling me the secret password to get into the guards, you know, barracks. Nope. I don't get any of that until I kill those guards.

直到你打出最后一击。对吧？

Until you get the last hit in. Right?

对吧？所以你看，这个系统显然随着时间在演变，好的游戏主持人或那些想激励不同玩法的主持人会给你其他行为的经验值。现在它确实会为其他行为提供经验了，但它的根基仍深深扎根于战斗系统，要从如此根深蒂固的体系中跳脱出来很难。对吧？

Right? So, you know, it's evolved over time, obviously, and good GMs or GMs who, you know, wanna incentivize different types of play will give you, you know, obviously, experience for other things. And now, obviously, it's changed, so it does give you experience for other things. But its roots are still very combat based, and so it's hard to get away from the roots of a system that is so established. Right?

这是个有50年历史的游戏，甚至更久。所以你会发现其中有些设计会让你疑惑——比如负重系统。

This is a game that is 50 years old. It's more than that. And yeah. So you're gonna find things about it that are like, why do we do things that way? For example, encumbrance.

几乎所有游戏里我最讨厌的就是物品管理和负重系统，但《地城冒险者卡尔》就跳脱了这个设定，你可以携带任意物品，甚至能把整辆车塞进背包（剧透警告，如果你还没读到那部分抱歉）。但像《暗夜锻造》系列游戏，比如邪帽社的《暗中之刃》——

My least favorite thing in almost any game is, like, inventory management and encumbrance, which dungeon crawler Karl gets away with which say you can carry whatever you want. You can even, like like, carry, like, whole vehicles in your inventory. Spoiler alert. Sorry if you haven't read that part yet. But in games like, let's say, any forged in the dark game, so blades in the dark from evil hat.

你初始拥有若干空物品栏位，角色预设了可填入这些栏位的物品列表。游戏过程中，主持人可能会说'你们看见一艘正离岸的船，怎么办？'这时你就可以勾选使用绳索。

You actually start with slots, and you don't have anything in those slots. But your character has a list of things that could go in those slots. And while you're playing the game, you know, the the game master might say something like, oh, you know, you come upon a a ship that is just pulling out from the dock. What do you do? And you then click off your rope.

对。你

Right. You

可以说'我用随身携带的丝绸绳索做了套索，甩向船只'，主持人会引导整个过程。但事实上你原本并没有这根绳子——直到需要时才意识到拥有它。可一旦物品栏位用尽，就无法再变更装备了。

say, I I, you know, make a lasso out of this, you know, silken rope that I'm carrying. I swing it over my head, and I try to attach it to the boat, and the GM will take you all the way through that thing. But you didn't have the rope. You didn't know you had the rope until you need the rope. But once you have no slots left, you cannot change your inventory.

对吧？所以这只是用一种更友好、更温和的方式管理物品栏。让我告诉你，我那个10级圣武士带了多少铁粮。你知道吗？嗯哼。我只有铁粮，所以他们觉得我们要在这里待很久。

Right? So it's just a little more of a kinder friendlier way of doing inventory because let me tell you how many iron rations that my, you know, level 10 paladin had. You know? It's like Mhmm. All I had was iron rations, so they thought we're gonna be in here a long time.

所以我没带油，没带绳子，也没带10英尺长的杆子。顺便说一句，如果你试过扛10英尺长的杆子，你绝对不会想带。那些东西又大又笨重。为什么游戏里会有这种东西？我也不知道。

So I didn't put oil, and I didn't put rope, and I didn't carry my 10 foot pole. By the way, if you've ever tried to carry a 10 foot pole, you would never carry one. Those things are huge and unwieldy. Like, why do we put those in a game? I don't know.

因为六边形格子是10英尺见方的。格子是10英尺的，所以你需要10英尺的杆子。

Because the hex the squares are 10 feet. The squares are 10 feet, so that's why you need the 10 foot pole.

地图上的格子。也许吧。也许吧。这太搞笑了。对吧？

Squares on the map. Maybe. Maybe. That's hilarious. Right?

总之，是的。

Anyway so yeah.

这实际上引发了我的第二个想法：在桌游中，我们如何引导玩家选择不那么优化的选项，因为它能带来更好的故事。这样你得不到那么多分数，但能得到故事点。我不知道，你明白我的意思吗？

So That that actually triggered the second thought that I had is, like, how could we, in a board game, trigger the player to choose the less optimal choice because it tells the better story. So you don't get as many points, but you get story points. I don't know. You know what I mean?

这是个超棒的问题，因为这很难，对吧？

That is an awesome question because that is hard, right

嗯。

Mhmm.

为了获得更好的故事。我之前提到过艾萨克和约翰为《死亡寒冬》设计的十字路口系统，后来被Flat Hat的其他游戏沿用。实际上我在某些方面并不喜欢这个系统——绝无对约翰和艾萨克的不敬——但这个系统本身是由必须发生在版图上的事件触发的。其中有些与角色相关，有些则与空间位置相关。

To get the better story. And, I mean, I mentioned the Crossroads systems before that Isaac and John came up with for dead of winter that has been later used in other games from Flat Hat. And I actually dislike it in some ways. No shade on John and Isaac, but the system itself is triggered by events that have to happen on the board. And some of them are linked to characters, and some of them are linked to spaces.

如果那些空间、角色或地点不存在，那么你手中的卡牌就完全无用。但我还是得通读所有内容才能判断是否生效。所以我认为最初的版本虽然初衷良好，但效果可能不尽如人意。说实话，这些问题本身很酷——通常是些道德抉择，可能与游戏机制略有关系，但往往不会产生重大影响，却能改变游戏氛围、基调以及玩家间的关系。

And if those spaces or characters or places don't exist, then that card in your hand does absolutely nothing. But I had to read the whole thing anyways to figure out if it works or not. And so I think in the first iterations, it was like well meaning, but maybe not. And they're cool questions, to be to be very frank about it. They they are usually, like, moral questions and decisions that may have a little bit to do with gameplay and mechanics, but often don't have a don't have a real huge change, but change the the tone, the the tenor, and the relationships between players.

我认为这正是角色扮演最迷人的地方。既然聊到这里，我打算分享些叙事学的小技巧——这不是森教授的课程内容，而是源自我在书籍影视作品中的观察。如你们所知，我是个重度动漫迷，几乎时刻都在看番剧。

And I think that is really what's fascinating about about role playing. So I'm gonna I'm gonna give you guys some narratology hints and tips and tricks here just because we're talking about it. And this this is not, you know, from professor Sen's class or anything, but this is from, like, just how what I like in in books and movies and shows. I'm a huge anime fan as you might understand. Like, I watch anime all the time.

但如果你的作品只有炫目的画面、酷炫的打斗场景和漂亮的机甲，我绝不会追番。相反，我会为了角色间——注意不是角色本身——而是角色间有趣的关系，去观看作画拙劣的作品。嗯。这才是让我对剧集产生兴趣的关键，也是游戏中让我关注角色的原因。

But if all you have is, like, glitzy graphics and, like, cool fight scenes and a nice mecca, I am not gonna watch your show. I will watch a show with subpar art if the characters not the characters, but the relationships between characters are interesting. Mhmm. That's what gets me interested in a show. And that's what gets me interested in characters in a game.