贾里德·弗莱德与乔达娜·亚伯拉罕：约会应用倦怠？尝试这30天挑战，停止浪费时间，最终遇见对的人

这里是iHeart播客。大家好，我是Rahidavlukia，《真情流露》播客的主持人。今天有幸能与Vivian对话。无论你是想摆脱债务、积累财富、像老板一样谈判，还是终于想搞懂如何正确理财，Vivian都是你该请教的人。

This is an iHeart podcast. Hey. I'm Radhidavlukia, and I'm the host of a really good cry podcast. And I have the opportunity to talk to Vivian too. Whether you're trying to get out of debt, build wealth, negotiate like a boss, or just finally understand how to do money right, Vivian is the person to ask.

不了解自己的财务状况，就会面临经济虐待的风险。

Not understanding your own money and not understanding finances, there is risk for financial abuse.

没错。

Yeah.

正因如此，每位女性都必须掌握理财能力。请收听《真情流露》播客，

And that is why every single woman needs to be good with money. Listen to A Really Good Cry on

可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听。

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你的整个人生都是虚构的。挚爱的兄弟毫无痕迹地失踪。你发现了母亲病情的真相。我是Dani Shapiro，这些只是我们即将推出的第十二季《家庭秘密》中将探讨的震撼故事中的几个片段。我们持续被嘉宾们勇敢讲述的故事所感动和激励。

Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming twelfth season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听《家庭秘密》第十二季。

Listen to Family Secrets season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到《你与自己的对决》播客。我是Lex Barrero，邀请你超越头衔与荣誉，深入了解全球最成功演艺人士的内心挣扎、童年故事和人生转折点。每周我们卸下光环，真实探讨塑造嘉宾们的关键瞬间。激发你成为更好的自己。请在iHeartRadio应用或任何你获取播客的平台收听《你与自己的对决》。

Welcome to the You versus You podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week, we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories, and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you. Listen to You versus You podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

使用约会软件应该像对待快餐一样。我不认为应该彻底否定快餐。人们对约会软件常有非黑即白的看法。适度使用它们很棒，但你需要掌控使用方式，不能无意识地刷个不停。

Dating apps should be used, like, in the same way that fast food is. I don't think you should say never ever eat fast food. People have these, like, black and white views towards the dating apps. I think they're great in moderation, and you need to be controlling the way you use them. You can't just be on it scrolling mindlessly.

约会软件有其适用场景，比如当人们无法外出社交、工作繁忙时可以使用，但它们不应该是情感工具箱里的唯一工具。

There's a time and a place for dating apps, and people should use them, like, when they make sense, when they can't be out there socializing, when they're really busy with work, but shouldn't be the only tool in their in their tool shed.

人们不敢直接说，比如，我就是受够了他们。人们把约会看作像开关一样——这只是生活的一部分。每月和恋爱中的朋友聚一次。参加个健身班。

People are afraid to say, like, I'm just tired of them. People look at dating as as like on off switch. It's just like a part of your life. Hang out with your friends who are in relationships once a month. Join a fitness class.

每周不带手机外出就餐一次。我们必须意识到这些应用只是拐杖。我们要认清这些应用是为谁而设计、由谁设计的——因为它们本就不是为你准备的。大多数听众都是社交达人。你能做到的。

Go out to eat once a week without your phone. The app we have to realize crutch. We have to acknowledge who these apps were created for and by because they're not for you. Most people listening are pretty social people. You can do it.

头号健康与养生播客。

The number one health and wellness podcast.

杰伊·谢蒂。杰伊·谢蒂。独一无二的杰伊·谢蒂。

Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

大家好，欢迎回到《On Purpose》，这个让你变得更快乐、更健康、更治愈的地方。今天特别兴奋，因为我要邀请两位过去几年有幸结识的朋友来到录音室。我已经上过他们的节目三次了，每次相处都无比愉快。我们一见如故，而且每次见面都更有趣。

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so excited because today I get to invite into the studio two people that I've had the pleasure of getting to know over the last few years. I've been on their show like three times now and I always have the best time with them. I felt like we hit it off immediately and it's got more fun every time.

能请他们来到《On Purpose》录音室是我的荣幸。我说的正是爆红约会关系类播客《U Up》的主持人贾里德·弗里德和乔尔达娜·亚伯拉罕。如果还没订阅，赶紧去关注吧。他们剖析了这个令人困惑、混乱又搞笑的现代约会世界——我知道你们都很需要这方面的指导。贾里德是单口喜剧演员兼编剧，

So it is an honor to have them on the On Purpose studio. I'm talking about Jared Freed and Jordana Abraham, the hosts of the hit dating and relationship podcast, U Up. If you haven't subscribed already, make sure you go and do that. They break down the confusing, chaotic and hilarious world of modern dating, which I know all of you need a lot of help with. Jared is a stand up comedian and writer.

他的作品曾登陆网飞和喜剧中心频道。乔尔达娜是数字媒体品牌Betches的联合创始人，平台总用户超4000万，是约会、自我成长和现代关系领域的权威声音。有请乔尔达娜和贾里德做客《On Purpose》。

His work has been featured on Netflix and Comedy Central, and Jordana is the co founder of Betches, a digital media brand with a reach of over 40,000,000 across platforms and a leading voice on dating, self development and modern relationships. Please welcome to On Purpose Jordana and Jared.

很荣幸来到这里，非常感谢。

Great to be here. Thank you so much.

非常

Great to

欢迎你们，我们太激动了。

have you guys. We're so excited.

这开场太棒了。真的。我是说，你什么都做到了。你每件事都做得很完美。懂吗？

What an intro. Yeah. I mean, you do everything. You do everything right. You know?

就像，我坐在这儿听你的开场白，心里想着，天哪，他简直

Like, I'm just sitting here listening to your intro. I'm like, man, he's

完全拿捏住了。驾轻就熟。

nailing it. Got it down.

就是信手拈来。连你介绍播客的时候也是——'这是为你准备的播客'，你知道，你会明确告诉听众他们在听什么。我感觉就像在...怎么说，像在课堂上。专业。太专业了。

Just has it down. Like, even when you introduce the podcast, like, this is the podcast for you know, you you tell people what they're listening to. I'm like, feel like I'm in like a, you know, a class. Professional. Yeah.

这是专业级的水准。

This is a pro.

这就是

This is

专业级。

a pro.

要知道，我们运作过很多播客。这才是专业人士。

You know, we we run a lot of podcasts. This is a professional.

这是专业级。

This is a pro.

没错。确实。你们都是行家。不过今天局势反转了。现在轮到我...轮到我提问，让Jared坐立不安了。

Yeah. This is yeah. You guys are pros. The tables have turned today though. So I get to I get to quiz you and make Jared feel uncomfortable.

没错。那一直是我目标——当你点头时我就想，怎么才能让杰伊直入主题？

Right. That was always that's always my goal when you Yes. Come I'm like, how can I get Jay straight?

你稍微捉弄他一下。

You mess with him a little bit.

轻轻撩拨那种。我就爱这样。而你总能精准接住，每次都是惊喜。

A little bit like And I love it. And you nail it's just always a surprise. Mean

他总能把烦人的问题转化成自己的主场。

He always knows how to how to take your annoying questions and turn them into and and own them.

对，先接住再反转。我跟很多人说过——真不是要抢你节目风头。

Yeah. Own them and then you turn them. I've said this to many people. I just I don't wanna take over your show.

你...你现在就在这么做。

I Yeah. You you are doing that.

此刻正是。观众肯定在想：烦死了这人，能不能闭嘴让杰伊发挥？但我必须说你真是个了不起的人。

I'm doing that right now. And and your audience is like, I hate this guy. He won't shut off. Let Jay do his thing. But I have to say what a great guy you are.

因为上次你来节目时，我做了个桥段：'杰伊能给低谷的人打气吗？'然后我念了段悲情独白...

I I I because I did this bit when you came on the show where I was like, Jay, can you give pep talks to people who are going through it? And then I read this whole sad monologue

关于你的。

About you.

关于我的人生。虽然用第三人称讲述，其实是我在自嘲。你知道有些悲伤故事本就可笑，而你接住话茬说：'你已经足够好'。

About my life. And it wasn't me saying it was me. And I but I I was joking. But like, you know, sometimes sad stories are meant to be funny. And you took it and you were like, you are enough.

然后那天晚些时候我给你发了短信。是你先给我发的。嘿，兄弟。玩得很开心。记住，你已经足够好了。

And then I texted you later that day. You texted me first. Hey, man. Had a great time. And just remember, you are enough.

这是我这辈子收到过最暖心的短信，我一定要确保它被录进播客里，因为

It's the sweetest text I have ever gotten in my entire I wanna make sure it's on camera on podcast because

我受不了 他就是这样。他们肯定会剪掉

I can't He's like this. They're gonna cut

这段。对吧。

this. Right.

删掉

Get rid

那些肉麻的内容。我们来聊聊约会吧。对。我必须得说，因为你知道，有时候听别人说话你会想，他们在镜头外喜欢什么？那真的是我收到过最贴心的短信。

of that sappy shit. Let's talk about dating. Yeah. I I just have to say because I I you know, sometimes you listen to people, you go, what do they like off camera? That's like the it is truly the nicest text I've ever gotten.

没错。我打算

Yeah. I'm gonna

现在多发点这种短信。

send more of them now.

拜托。它让我一整天都心情大好。或者说整个月。随便啦。

Please. It it improved my whole day. Yeah. Or month. Whatever.

我现在还在说这事呢。

I'm still talking about it.

彼此彼此。你们能邀请我三次真是太贴心了。我们每次都玩得超开心。而且我喜欢你们激发出的那一面——那种有趣、活泼、充满能量的我平时在平台上很少展现。

The feeling's mutual. You guys have been so kind to have me on three times. We have the best time ever. And I love the side of me you bring out. I don't always get to show that.

在我的个人频道里，我通常没机会展示这种有趣爱玩又精力充沛的形象。所以能和你们分享这一面，是你们给了我这样的机会。不过咱们还是...

I don't always get to show that fun, playful, energetic side on my platform. So it's, that's a part of me that I get to share with both of you and so you give me an opportunity to do that. But let's just You

你总是这么配合。这正是我们特别感激的一点，毕竟我们要讨论的是约会恋爱这种非常私密的话题，

always are game. That's the thing and I, you know, we appreciate that so much because some, you know, we talk about dating and relationships which is like a very personal thing,

没错。所以今天我们就想聊聊这个。

you know so. And that's what we want to talk about today.

对。

Yes.

因为我的观众和社群——包括朋友群组和无数来信听众——我们可是搜罗了全球素材来准备这期播客。但首先我想从约会话题开始，你们两位可是专家。Jared正在约会中，Jordana你现在不约了是吧？你们对当下约会现状有什么犀利见解？

Because my audience, community, I've got groups of friends, I've got so many people who've written in, we've we've scoured the world to prepare for this podcast. But the first thing I wanted to start off with is dating. You guys know everything about it. You're doing it Jared, Jordana you're not doing it anymore but Yeah. As a part of your What's your hot take on current dating?

具体是什么观点？现在约会中有哪些出乎你们意料的现状变化？我觉得...

Like what's the take? What's the viewpoint that you think is surprising you right now that's different right now on dating? I think

当前弥漫的消极情绪虽然事出有因——你永远能找到百万同道中人附和你对约会的抱怨——但这种情绪最无助于改善你的约会状态。它既不能帮你获得初次约会，也不会让你成为更好的约会者。这是唯一一个越多人支持反而让你约会越糟的事情。

the negativity that's out there right now while it's founded, like you can always be negative about dating and you'll find a million people that will help you. Like you'll find a million people that will back you up and tell you how right you are for being negative about it, but it's the least helpful thing for your dating life. And it's not the thing that's gonna get you on the first date. It's not the thing that's gonna make you a better dater. It's the only thing that you can find other people to cheer you on for that actually makes your dating life worse.

哇，说得好。我很赞同，百分百同意。

Wow. That's a good one. I like that. Yeah. 100% agree.

因为我经常做这些恋爱励志演讲，其实是用反讽方式指出——比如当我听到某对情侣吵架时，就会调侃单身是多么幸运。很多听众的反应让我惊讶，他们居然从没想过单身也可以是件好事。

Because I do these dating pep talks all the time, and I it's a joke. It's pointing out why like, that I heard a relationship, and I heard this couple get in a fight, and then I talk about how lucky you are to be single. And I point that out, and you see so many people that are just like, it's almost like crazy to me that they never thought of it. Yeah. Like being single is a good thing.

你满怀希望。你正努力让生活变得更好，明白吗？而我觉得你听到的可能是你做错了或该这样做那样做，但其实你正在做的就很好。你就是你。一切都会好起来的。

You're hopeful. You're looking for to make your life better, you know? And I think all you hear about is maybe that you're doing it wrong or do this or do that, and it's like, whatever you're doing is fine. You're you. It's gonna work out.

但我认为我们在网上看到的那些负面情绪很容易传播，就像抓挠蚊子包一样。感觉挺爽，但实际上对你没什么帮助。

But I think the negativity that we see online, that's easy to do because it's like biting a mosquito bite. It feels pretty good, but it's not really helping you.

这个视角很棒。我刚和一位制片人同事聊天，她正处于异地恋，说现在每晚回家都会打开最爱的剧集狂看。我们最初反应都是'哦好吧'，但她说'我独自坐在沙发上，其实这是我能这样做的最后时光了，所以我很享受'。这种心态——

That's a great perspective. I was just talking to my one of my producers, she's in a long distance relationship and she was saying every night she goes home right now, she turns on her favorite show and she just binge watches it. And all of our reaction was like, oh, okay. And she was like, I sit alone on the couch and she was but actually this is the last time I'm ever gonna get to do this so I'm loving it. That mindset of

噢这个角度。

Oh that perspective.

意识到'哇，这真的是最后一次能独自窝在沙发里追任何想看的剧了'，然后用积极眼光看待它

Of actually, oh wow, like this is the last time ever it's just gonna be me on my couch binge watching whichever show I want and looking at it positively

没错。

Right.

而不是消极看待。我觉得你说得太对了，我想深入探讨这点，但先听听Jordana的看法

Rather than the negative of that. And I think that's, you're so right and I wanna dive into that but I wanna hear Jordana's first

是啊，顺着这个思路——我们都知道没人爱听'节食运动'这类减肥建议。但我完全同意Jarrah说的，约会的'节食运动'其实就是用积极心态面对每次约会，同时拥有约会之外的充实生活。因为态度决定70%的结果，这因素太被低估了。

Yeah, and think going off of that, think you know we talk about like you know, no one wants to hear diet and exercise if for like you know, fitness or losing weight. But like, think that I totally agree with Jarrah. Think the diet and exercise of like dating is really like going into anything you're doing in the dating space with a good attitude and then having a full life outside of dating so it's not the only thing that you're focused on. Because I do think attitude is like 70% of it. Like, I think it's such an underrated part.

很多人觉得只要增加约会次数就行，量变引起质变。虽然人在约会，但心不甘情不愿，带着负面情绪刷着交友软件，满腹怨气。

I think so many people think if I just keep going on more dates, more is more, and I'm kind of there, but I don't want to be there. I'm in a negative mindset. I'm on the app still. I'm so annoyed. I'm still on the apps.

这种情况下你去约会，自以为在努力，但展现的根本不是那个有趣迷人、让人想交往的版本——不是那个生活充实、认为恋爱只是为精彩人生锦上添花的人，而是指望别人来填补你缺失的部分。这才是阻碍人们的真正原因，而他们往往毫无察觉。

You become you you go on the dates and you think you're actually trying, but you're you're bringing not like a a fun, exciting version of yourself that someone would want to date, someone with a full life, someone who just thinks someone would add to their already great life, and you're kind of expecting someone to fill in what's missing. And I think that's really what holds people back, and they don't even realize they're doing it.

当你有所保留时，就像这样，当你退缩并消极对待时，你就没有展现出完整的自我。所以你甚至没有让别人真正走进你的世界。我们并不是那种神神叨叨的播客，不会像那些已婚朋友一样烦人地说‘振作起来’或者‘缘分到了自然会有’这种话。

And when you're holding back, like, more on that, just like when you're holding back and you're being negative, like, you're you're not being your full self. So you're not even bringing people into your world. Like, you want and and, like, we're not we're not this, like, woo woo podcast. We're not there telling like, there's nothing more annoying than like, cheer up from your married friend. Oh, you'll find it when you're not looking.

这感觉完全不对。懂吗？这根本不是建议，毫无帮助。

It's like, off. Yeah. You know? Like, that's not that's not advice. That's not helpful.

但当你开始接纳‘我拥有精彩人生，只是在寻找能让它更美好的人——而不是随便谁都可以’时，你才开始真正有了品味。嗯。

But it's like, the minute you give in to like, I got this great life. I'm looking for someone to make it better. I'm not looking for just anyone. Then you start to have taste. Mhmm.

知道吗，人们甚至害怕承认这一点。他们总说‘我很困惑’，这是你在约会时最常听到的话。‘我很困惑’——不，你只是不感兴趣。

You know, and that's something where people are so afraid to even like admit. They go, I'm confused. That's what you hear from people dating. I'm confused. No, you're turned off.

嗯。

Mhmm.

换个说法就充满力量了。现在你有了品味，有了自主权——‘哦，我确实有喜好，我在伴侣身上寻找某些特质’。

Change the wording. Now it's powerful. Now you have taste. Now you have ownership over like, oh, I do like and dislike things. I am looking for certain things in a partner.

就像活出完整的人生。当你说‘这些是我的生活方式’时，你也准备好面对有人说‘我不这样’，然后你可以直接说‘很好，请离开’。

Like, you know, living your full life. Like when you say these are the things I do, you're willing to have someone go, I don't do that. And go, and you can go, good, get out of here.

对，我喜欢这个观点。那么让我们应用到当前普遍存在的约会软件疲劳现象上——你们俩比任何人都更常听到这种抱怨。

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So let's apply that to what everyone's saying right now where there's this mass fatigue around dating apps. You both hear it more than anyone.

当然。几乎每个和你交谈的人都在说‘我受够了约会软件’‘我对约会软件精疲力尽’，我也总听到这种话。你如何将刚才的观点应用到这种约会软件疲劳上？当人们对你说‘我太累了’时，你不会说‘振作点’——那你会说什么？

Of course. Where every other person you speak to is just like, I'm sick of the dating apps, I'm tired of the dating apps, I hear it all the time as well. How do you then apply that to the fatigue around dating apps? So when people are saying to you, hey I'm exhausted, you're not saying cheer up. What are you saying?

你会怎么回应？

What are you saying?

我认为约会应用应该像快餐一样被使用。

I mean I think dating apps should be used like in the same way that fast food is.

跟我说说看

Tell me I about

不认为应该绝对禁止快餐，知道吗？它不会毁了你的人生。人们对约会应用也有类似的非黑即白观点。我觉得适度使用很棒，但需要控制使用方式，就像对待互联网其他事物如Instagram或TikTok一样。不能无意识地刷屏。

don't think you should say never ever eat fast food. Know, gonna it's ruin your life. And I don't I think people have these, like, black and white views towards the dating app. I think they're great in moderation, and you need to be controlling the way you use them just like anything else on the Internet, just like Instagram or TikTok. Like, you can't just be on it scrolling mindlessly.

不能无脑地滑动匹配。约会应用有其适用场景——当人们无法外出社交、工作繁忙时使用很合理，但不该是唯一的情感工具。就像快餐，总吃会反胃，偶尔公路旅行吃一次则无妨。可以纵情享受，但别让它成为全部生活方式。

You can't just be on it swiping mindlessly. I think there's a time and a place for dating apps, and people should use them, like, when they make sense, when they can't be out there socializing, when they're really busy with work, but shouldn't be the only tool in their in their tool shed. Because just like with fast food, if you eat it all the time, you're gonna feel sick. If you eat it on a road trip every now and then, that's fine. You're like, and indulge and have a great time, but don't make that the only make that your entire lifestyle.

是啊。我们必须承认这点。人们不敢直说'我厌倦了'。但如果你天天吃麦当劳，连吃一周后说厌倦了，大家都会劝你该停停。

Yeah. And we have to acknowledge that. I think people are afraid to say, I'm just tired of them. You hear that, but if you went to McDonald's everyday, if you went to fast food everyday, and someone was like, yeah, I've eaten fast food everyday for the last week, I'm tired of it. You would go, yeah, you should take some time off of that.

对。我们不会指责那人'你不够努力'，就像对待戒快餐的人。但人们把约会看成非开即关的开关。

Yeah. Like you would we wouldn't look at that person and go, well, you're not trying. You stop going for fast food. Yeah. Like people look at dating as as like on off switch.

这只是生活的一部分。就像我们现在做的——我们在播客里提过，正在进行夏日挑战。

It's just like a part of your life and I don't know. It's just it's we like, right now, I'm doing we've we've said on the podcast, we're doing a summer challenge.

好的。

Okay.

准备好夏日挑战了吗？卸载那些应用。

Okay? Here's the summer challenge. Delete the apps.

你也在参与。

You're doing it too.

我正在做

I'm doing

我也是。我单身。

it too. I'm single.

你在删除所有应用。

You're deleting all the apps.

删掉了所有应用。明白吗？这是为了六月、七月、八月。

Deleted all the apps. Okay? This is for June, July, August.

对你来说那是多少个应用？

And how many apps is that for you?

17个？不。当时只在一个应用上，已经删了。明白吗？六月、七月、八月，这是承诺。

17? No. Was on one app at the time, deleted it. Okay? June, July, August, that's the promise.

好的。明白吗？那你接下来有什么计划？

Okay. Okay? And then what's your plan?

计划是每月和那些有对象的朋友聚一次。好的。比如每月和乔安娜和她丈夫、我哥哥和他妻子制定一个计划。和已婚或恋爱中的人制定计划。然后参加一个健身课程。

The plan is hang out with your friends who are in relationships once a month. Okay. Make one plan a month with like Jordana and her husband, my brother and his wife. Make a plan with someone who's married or in a relationship. Then join a fitness class.

做些不同的事。尝试不同的健身课程。不管是什么。每周三不带手机出去吃一次饭。

Do something different. Do a different fitness class. Whatever it is. Go out to eat once a week every Wednesday without your phone.

独自一人。

On your own.

自己戴上。放进口袋。把手机放进口袋。抬头看。因为我们有点沉迷于这些东西。

Put on your own. Put in your pocket. Put your phone in your pocket. Look up. Because we're kind of like addicted to these things.

就像我们必须意识到这个应用是个拐杖。它是由男性极客们创造出来试图社交的。仔细想想，是的。在这个应用上，你永远不会被甩。永远不会经历分手。

Like the app we have to realize is a crutch. It was made by male nerds to try and be social. If you think about it Yeah. The app, you never get dumped on an app. Never get broken up with.

你永远不会听到拒绝。左滑就是你的拒绝。右滑，你要么立刻匹配成功，要么一无所获。当你一无所获时，你的大脑会怎么想？大概他们还没看到我吧。

You never hear a no. It's swipe left, that's a no from you. Swipe right, you either get a match right away or you get nothing. And when you get nothing, what does your brain go? Guess they haven't seen me yet.

这是由那些不愿在公共场合接近他人、害怕公开失败的人发明的。

That was invented by someone who didn't wanna go up to someone in public and experience public failure.

哦，说得好。

Oh, that's good.

所以我们必须认清这些应用是为谁、由谁创造的——因为它们不是为你设计的。大多数听众都是相当擅长社交的人。你能做到。但有时候我们需要像现在这样，通过类似挑战的小游戏来让自己走出去，因为手机实在太让人上瘾了。比如我周三去吃饭，坐在吧台，然后抬起头来。

So we have to acknowledge who these apps were created for and by because they're not for you. Most people listening are pretty social people. You can do it. But you but sometimes we need to like create these little games like we're doing with this like challenge to get yourself out there because the phone is so addictive. So like I go to dinner on a Wednesday, I sit at the bar and I look up.

就这样。我可没保证你能找到男朋友。

That's it. I'm not promising you a boyfriend.

是啊。顺便说一句，什么都没发生。这很有趣。是的。

Yeah. Nothing going by the way. That's interesting. Yeah.

很棒。我有对话，有故事，有经历。和你已婚的朋友们出去玩，那就是答案。因为——我从男性角度在播客里说这个，当然，但我是为自己发声。我们说过不再提这个，但我们说过，我们不是专家。

Great. I have conversations, I have stories, I have experiences. Hanging out with your married friends, that is the that's the answer. Because and I I speak from the guy perspective on the podcast, like, of course, but I'm like, I speak for myself. We talked about not saying this anymore, but we said, we're not experts.

明白吗？是的。没人是什么约会专家。我们只是——我只是自己感受和经历的专家。所以当我在节目里谈论时，比如，我在想，我们有那么多女性，她们对和已婚朋友出去玩这件事的反应是——她们不认识任何人。

Okay? Yeah. No one's a dating expert. We are I'm just an expert in my own feelings and my own experiences. So when I talk on the show, like, I was thinking of, like, we have so many women who their response to, like, hanging out with their married friends is, like, they don't know anybody.

他们啊，我朋友的丈夫们，他们根本不认识任何朋友。他们从不...他们从未给我介绍过对象。首先，别为了有所图才和已婚朋友来往。和已婚朋友相处是为了陪伴他们、享受时光、做你自己。

They oh, my friend's husbands, they don't know any of their friends. They don't they never have a guy for me. It's like, first of all, don't hang out with your married friends to get something from it. Hang out with your married friends to to hang with them and have a good time and be you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白吗？如果你这样做，你期待的不过是让那位丈夫觉得'杰西卡挺酷的'——这就够了。为什么可口可乐还在打广告？就是为了让你想喝汽水时第一个想到它。

Okay? And if you do that, what you want from that experience is for the husband to go, oh, yeah, Jessica's pretty cool. That's all you want. Why does Coca Cola still have ads? So you think of Coca Cola the first drink when you need a soda.

这个比喻太精妙了。

That's such a good point.

同理。你要让自己成为已婚朋友眼中的可口可乐——因为那位丈夫确实认识很多人。没错，他会在社交时提起你。

Same thing. You wanna make yourself Coca Colas to your to your married friends because that husband does know people. Yeah. He is talking. Yeah.

但问题是男人根本不关心约会恋爱话题。所以男人才不听我们的播客。

But he meant we don't care about dating and relationships. That's why men don't listen to our podcast.

知道吗？就像现在你只是RC可乐（次级品牌）对吧？

You know like Right now you're RC Cola, right?

对对对。他们会想'啊最近都没想起过她'。但如果你能让自己成为他们脑海里'酷女孩'的第一联想——这种机会总会出现的。比如我和哥哥嫂子聚会时，主要是陪嫂子，但哥哥毕竟是我哥哥。可如果我和乔安娜夫妇出去玩，她丈夫遇到合适人选时——我就能成为他第一个想到的人。

Right, right, right. They're going, oh I guess I haven't thought of them lately. But if you make yourself the first thought in their brain when cool chick comes up, because it's gonna happen, but that's the thing. So when I hang out with, like, my brother and his wife and, you know, I'm doing that with his wife, but my brother, you know, my brother's my brother. But, like, you know, if I go hang out with Jordana and her husband, like, he's gonna, you know, he comes across, I'm the first thought on it.

为什么？我们走着瞧。我...

Why? We'll see. I I

认为他每天第一个想到的人。

think First person he's thinking about every day.

这些就是那些不会在我这里爆火的内容。对，你懂的，说得很对。负面消息容易走红，八卦故事容易传播，而不是‘嘿，和已婚朋友出去玩’这种。

And these are like the things that don't go viral on me. Yeah. You you know That's a great point. You know, negativity goes viral, salacious stories go viral, not hey, go out with your married friends.

那就想办法让它火起来啊。

Well, like make it go viral.

关系纽带，对吧？

Ties. Right?

对，疏远的关系。我们是从谁那儿听来的？

Right. Lose ties. Who do we get that from?

梅格什么的。抱歉，可能忘了她姓什么。

Meg something. Sorry. Probably forgot her last name.

对，但我们已经

Right. But we've

是啊，我们已经...嗯。

Yeah. We've we've Yeah.

你知道，在我们的播客里，我们汇集了听到的众多声音和他们的经历，我并非质疑这点。确实很难，但这也是疲劳因素。约会软件只会给你带来更多。

Know, our podcast, we've just collected all these experiences that we hear the the voices of so many people and how they're going through it, and I'm not doubting that. Yeah. It's hard, but it's that's also the fatigue element. Yeah. Dating apps just get you more.

不是更好，而是更多。更多介绍（有好有坏），更多分手，更多失望，更多对话。如果每天聊更多人，自然会遇到更多烦人的事。所以负面故事自然就多了。

Not better, more. So it's more intros, which are good, more breakups, more more disappointment, you know, more conversations. If you had more conversations a day, you're gonna find more annoying people a day. So of course, you're have more stories that are are negative. Yeah.

所以这种疲劳感，说到底就是数量堆积的结果。

So the the fatigue is really, you know, the yeah, the numbers of it all.

对，具体数字记不清了，但蒂姆·费里斯分析过。他说每100人中大约有5个自恋狂，1个精神病态者。所以当你有一百万粉丝时，按比例就会遇到相应数量的自恋狂和精神病态者。对吧。

Yeah. Can't remember the exact math but Tim Ferriss had broken it down. He was like, for every 100 people there's like five narcissists, one psychopath. And so when you have like a million followers, you're gonna have you know, the same percentage of narcissist psychopaths. Right.

约会软件上也是一样的。

It's the same on a dating app if yeah. You

我喝咖啡用甜蜜素，那是最强的甜味剂。我知道大家都会说我迟早心脏病发作死掉。但我...我无所谓。

I think I use Sweet'N Low in my coffee, it's like the strongest sweetener. Okay. Everyone's gonna tell me that I'm gonna have a heart attack and I'm gonna die. I'm I'm okay with that.

为了

For for

一杯更甜的咖啡，我可以接受。但约会软件就像甜蜜素——劲头太猛。去酒吧认识新朋友就像往饮料里加糖，你得加很多很多糖才够味。

a sweeter coffee, I'm okay. But it you know, dating apps are like sweet and low. Like, you're gonna it's really gonna hit you. You know, going to a bar and trying to meet someone new is like putting sugar in your drink. It's not gonna you're only gonna get a you're gonna need a lot more sugar.

是啊。不过

Yeah. So But

那样的饮品质量更好。你说得对，夏天根本不需要约会软件。

it's gonna it's gonna be a better quality drink. And when you said this, it's like, no, you don't need dating app in the summer.

就是，夏天哪需要这个？

No. Right? You don't need it in the summer.

没错。

Right.

夏天就该出门，去度假，和朋友聚会。

You are out in the summer. You're taking vacations in summer. You're hanging with friends in the summer.

是啊。所以你现在正在接受这个挑战。

Yeah. Hence you're doing the challenge now.

这就是为什么我要接受这个挑战。

That's why I'm doing the challenge.

意思是，完整的挑战内容是什么，再说一遍，这样其他人也能参与。

Mean So what's the complete challenge laid out again so that everyone else can do it.

夏季约会挑战就是删除那些应用。直接卸载它们。我们九月再见。

The summer dating challenge is delete the apps. Just get off them. We'll we'll come back in September.

对，没错。不必永远删除。

Yeah. Yes. Doesn't have to be forever.

不，不必永远删除。

No. Doesn't have to be forever.

你永远不能吃麦当劳了。这是这个季节的结束。

You can never eat McDonald's. It's the end

是的。只需要等待下一个季节的到来。

of the season. Yeah. Just And you gotta wait for the next season.

就等下一个季节，看看情况如何。我们已经试过那些应用了。你讨厌它们。所以，让我们尝试些新的东西。

Just wait for the next season and see how it goes. We've tried the apps. You hate them. Yeah. So so let's try something new.

每周独自去一次晚餐，手机放口袋里。不要拿出手机。把这当作对自己的挑战。去参加一个新的健身课程。嗯。

Go to dinner once a week by yourself, phone in pocket. Don't take out your phone. Make it a challenge to yourself. Go to a new fitness class. Mhmm.

仅仅因为这样能让你出门活动、尝试新事物。每月和已婚朋友及其配偶聚一次——无论是男性朋友和他的妻子，还是女性朋友和她的丈夫。制定个计划，不必是度假，也不必是什么疯狂的事。

Just because that gets you out and active and doing something new. Hang out with your married friend and their husband, married friend and their wife once a month. Make a plan. It doesn't have to be a vacation. It doesn't have to be anything crazy.

就是和他们相处

Just hang out with them

嗯。

Mhmm.

享受美好时光。我要给出的反馈是：如果你来找我说‘这没用’，那你就看错方向了。我们这是个健康播客，对吧？想想和朋友们相处的内在价值。

And have a good time. And I do think the the feedback I'm gonna give is like, if you come to me and go, well, I didn't work. I think you've looked at it the wrong way. And we're on a wellness podcast, we can Right. Think of the intrinsic value of hanging out with your friends.

希望听众们能理解这一点。

I hope the listenership can understand that.

为了

For

当然。因为有些人约会时会问‘我男朋友在哪？’，而我会想：你听起来根本不像我想约会的人。

sure. Because with dating some people go, where's my boyfriend? And I go, you don't sound like someone I would ever wanna fucking date.

对。等到挑战结束时，你重新使用约会软件，就会成为一个更活力充沛、更精力饱满的自己，不会再像

Right. Well then again at the at the end of the at the end of the challenge, you go back on the apps and you're a more invigorated, more energized version of yourself who's not saying The

我超爱的那个快餐例子。

fast food example which I love.

不会再以‘嗨’作为开场白，因为你现在会为每次互动投入更多能量。

Who's not saying hey as their opening line because you're more, you know, you're putting more energy into the interactions that you are having.

没错。我大概每周会放纵一次。每两周当我精神高度自律，专注于工作、健身、健康饮食等等之后，我需要一天完全不在乎这些。通常周六晚上就是这样的日子——洛杉矶有家叫查理先生（Mr. Charlie's）的店，是纯素版麦当劳（虽然我完全不明白这店怎么没被起诉）。

Right. I do that like once a week. Like once every two weeks I have mentally been so disciplined and focused on work, working out, eating right, all the rest of it, that I need a day where I don't care. And so usually Saturday night is that day I have this, there's this, I have no idea how this place, don't wanna get I them sued but I don't know. I have no idea how this place exists.

洛杉矶有家叫查理先生的店，是纯素版麦当劳。

There's this place in LA called Mr. Charlie's, it is vegan McDonald's.

明白。

Okay.

从外面看它和麦当劳一模一样：黄色红色招牌，只是把麦当劳的拱门倒过来变成笑脸

If you go outside, it looks like McDonald's. They have an upside down frown, they have a smiley

的标志，

face, like

作为从小吃麦当劳长大但现在吃纯素的人，我这辈子都在寻找纯素版麦当劳——薯条味道一样，麦乐鸡味道一样，蛋黄酱味道一样，生菜味道也一样。所以每隔两周的周六，我会放纵自己吃麦乐鸡、薯条、汉堡。但到了周一早晨，这种放纵反而让我重新充满健身动力。

from the outside it's yellow and red like it literally looks like McDonald's. I as someone who grew up going to McDonald's but now I'm vegan and I don't eat meat have been searching for vegan McDonald's my whole life, I've now found it. And the fries taste the same, the chicken nuggets taste the same, the mayo tastes the same, the lettuce tastes the same. So Saturday, usually once every two weeks, I will eat chicken nuggets, fries, burger, whatever it is. But it's that feeling of like come Monday morning, I'm reinvigorated to work out again.

正是如此。因为给大脑释放了这种空间，我又能重拾自律了。

Exactly. Gonna have my discipline again because I've allowed my brain this space to go there.

对，而且比起天天吃，偶尔放纵反而更享受吧

Yes and you probably enjoy it much more than if you had it. You had it every day

是啊。

Yeah.

天天吃肯定不舒服。

You wouldn't feel great.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

没错。

Right.

不过有件事我最近深有感触，这也和贾里德刚才提到的观点相关。我现在认识许多单身女性朋友，她们都非常优秀。是的。我很想把她们介绍给好男人。此刻我突然意识到，我之前从没考虑过贾里德，所以现在我得调整这个想法。我就在想，你又不是我朋友，你又不是我的可口可乐...

One thing I've been getting a lot though, and this kind of comes from the point that Jared was talking Right now, I have so many single female friends that I think are amazing. Yes. That I'd love to introduce to good men. And now I'm, it's hitting me right now that I've not thought of Jared before, so now I need to, now I need to change that up. And I've got, I'm like, you weren't friend of mine, you weren't Coca Cola for me,

你都没和我出去玩过，我搞砸了。

you didn't go hang out with I've messed up.

但我觉得至少...让我想想...我至少有三到五位女性朋友。是的。她们真的很棒，我是真心觉得她们很棒。就是那种'哦对，她确实很酷'的类型。

But I feel like I have at least, let me think, I have at least three to five female friends. Yes. Who I think are awesome, like genuinely think are awesome. They're the, oh yeah, she's really cool. Right.

她们聪明、体贴、美丽，具备所有优点。而我实际上很难想到认识的单身男性，这并不是说世上没有好男人，而是我认识的单身男性不多。作为已婚人士，我大多数朋友都已婚或处于长期稳定关系中，他们也在为此苦恼。从女性视角你看到了什么？因为她们很多人都在经历这样的困境：我们是坚强、自信、有抱负的女性，而很多男性对此感到畏惧。

Like they're smart, they're thoughtful, they're beautiful, all the rest of it. And I actually struggled to think of single men I know, and that's not, I'm not saying that they're not good men out there, I'm saying I don't know many single men. As a married man, think most of my friends are married or in long term committed relationships and they're just struggling out there as well. What are you seeing from a woman's perspective? Because to a lot of them what they're experiencing is we're strong, confident, ambitious women and a lot of men are intimidated by that.

是的。这个话题现在随处可见。关于适婚单身女性的讨论似乎成了热点。我完全同意你的观点，我认识太多优秀的单身女性了。

Yes. I think this is a conversation where I'm seeing all over the place now. I think it's like a very, it feels like a very hot topic now to kind of look at the available single woman. I totally agree with you. I know so many amazing single women.

但我真的不认识多少单身男性。我只知道一个很优秀的单身男性。真的，除此之外就没什么人选了。我认为部分原因在于，女性更倾向于选择教育程度相当或更高、收入相当或更高的男性。

I really don't know that many. I only know one amazing single guy. No. I I really don't know that that many otherwise. And I do think part of it is women are much more likely to want to date men who have the same education levels as them or higher or make the same amount of money of them as higher or higher.

而男性不一定追求这些条件。所以男性的可选择范围更大。虽然我不喜欢'向上择偶'这种说法，但就教育和收入这些客观条件而言，很多女性不愿意选择条件不如自己的对象。

And I think men are not necessarily looking for that. So I think there's a bigger pool for men of women that they'll be interested in. So I do think women I don't wanna I don't like the term dating up or dating, you know, but I think, like, when you just look at objective things like education or money, a lot of women don't wanna date people who are less educated or have less money than them.

我插一句补充下，男性只在乎一件事：我有没有感觉？对，这就是全部标准。

To to to add on to this, I'm sorry to interrupt, the men go by one thing. Am I attracted? Yeah. That's it. That's the checklist.

对。嗯，那意味着那可能是无限的。

Right. Well, that that means that could be that that's infinite.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。你说的是女性会做的一个清单。她们安全吗？受过教育吗？

Right. What you're talking about is a checklist that women do. Are they safe? Are they educated?

她们是否拥有

Are they do they have

能力，比如，她们是否勤奋？负债情况良好？这些都是她们会考虑的事情，甚至在

the ability to, like, are they a hard worker? Are they good debt? These are all things that they're thinking about, like, even on the

交友软件上。而且确实，我认为符合女性标准的男性更少，这些女性可能——我不想说更挑剔，但她们只是以不同的方式看待事物。与二三十年前相比，如今有更多女性受过大学教育，女性的收入也比以往任何时候都高。

apps. And there's right. And there's fewer, I think, men who meet that criteria for women who are maybe I don't want to say more selective, but are just looking at things in a different way. And I think as opposed to how things were twenty or fifty years ago, more women are college educated than men. Women are making more money than they ever have before.

因此我认为，尤其是随着年龄增长，与你水平相当或更高的男性群体（如果你在寻找这类条件的话）会变得更小。所以这就像一场数字游戏。我不确定解决方案是让人们更开放，还是...你懂我的意思吗？因为我觉得社会对收入低于妻子或教育程度不如妻子的男性仍存在双重标准。我希望随着时代变化，人们能在两方面都更开明些。

And so I think the the pool, especially as you get older of men who are at your level or higher, if that's what you're looking for in terms of, like, those things, is just smaller. So I think it just becomes like a numbers game. And I don't know if the solution is for people to be more open minded or if the solution is you know what I mean? Or because I think there's still a little bit of a double standard around a man who makes less money than his wife or a man a man that's has less education than his wife. So I think that I mean, I would hope that as the times change, people are a little bit more open minded in both directions.

是啊。而且我觉得，我们经常这样。我们讨论过——单身男性都去哪儿了？就像你刚才说的，这话我都说了一百万遍了。

Yeah. And I think also, like, we do this all the time. We we've talked about this. Where are the single men? And like you just said it, I've said this a million times.

我不知道。即使作为一个单身男性。比如，我也不知道。

I don't know. Even as a single man. Like, I don't know.

我认识那个单身汉。

I've known the single guy for him.

没错。我甚至不知道他们会在哪里。实际上这已经变成了节目里的一个笑话，

Right. I don't even know where they would be. Actually it's become like kind of a joke on

这个节目

the show

就像在问，这些家伙去哪儿了？因为如果有这么多女性，但约会和恋爱也是女性的话题。她们聚在一起讨论这些，而男性通常不会聚在一起聊这些。所以可能不会那么，你知道，在那种氛围里，明白吧，就像

of like, where are these guys? Because if there's all these women, but also this dating and relationships is a topic for women. They get together to This talk about is something that men just don't generally get together and talk about. So it might not be as, you know, in the You atmosphere for know, like

到那种程度。对。我认为约会和恋爱对很多女性来说更像是一种优先事项。从社会角度，她们被告知从21岁起就应该考虑这些，比如她们的未来会怎样，她们的丈夫会是谁，她们会怎样。我不认为男性有这种压力。如果一个男人回家过节，他会被问及工作，被问及工作上的事情，大多数时候不会被问及他在和谁约会。

To that level. Right. It's I think dating and relationships seems more like a priority for a lot of women. Just societally, they've been told that that's something they should be thinking about from, you know, 21 years old is, like, what their future is and and who their husband's gonna be and what they're I don't think men are given that pressure. If a man goes home for the holidays, he's asked about his job, he's asked about what's going on at at at work, He's not necessarily most of the time being asked about who he's dating.

我认为女性被问及这个问题更多，而且她们比很多男性更投入于寻找伴侣，至少在同年龄段的男性中是这样。

I think that's a question that women are getting a lot more, and that they're much more invested in finding a partner than a lot of men are around at least men in a similar age group.

等等。贾里德，你是说你没有很多单身男性朋友吗？

So wait. Jared, you're saying you don't have lots of single guy friends?

不。完全没有。

No. That not at all.

这就是问题所在。

That's the thing.

就像，我没有一群这样的朋友。当你听说一个女人分手了，她们的朋友们做的第一件事就是，我知道这些其他单身女性。她们会试着撮合她们和单身女性出去约会。对。她们就像是她们的新米兰达·凯莉，你知道的，萨曼莎团队。

Like, I'm not rolling with a group. Like, when you hear a woman get broken up with, like, the first thing that, like, a lot of their friends do, they're like, I know these other single women. Like they'll try and like fix them up with single women to go out with. Yeah. They're like their new Miranda Carey, you know, Samantha crew.

我甚至从没听说过男人有这样的情况。比如，哦，你得见见我的其他男性朋友。甚至你当时说，嘿，因为我搬到了德尔雷海滩，我在佛罗里达，乔达娜就说，哦，我朋友住那儿。你想不想一起出去玩？想不想交个朋友？

I've never even heard of that for a guy. Like, oh, you gotta meet my other guy friend. And even you were like, hey, because I moved to Delray Beach, I'm in Florida and and Jordana was like, oh my friends live down there. Do you wanna like hang out? You wanna have a friend?

对。你想要个朋友吗？我当时想，不，我不需要朋友。我想去咖啡店独自待着，看看太阳。

Right. Do wanna have a friend? I was like, no. I don't want a friend. I wanna go be lonely at a coffee shop and look at the sun.

你知道，就像我...我不想要...这很奇怪因为这是我的第一反应。难道不是吗？其实我想要朋友。

You know, like I you know, like I don't want like and it's weird because that's my initial reaction. Are those? I want friends.

那些没有朋友的人

Where are

在哪里？对吧

the friendless men? Right

就在那儿。但我有朋友，我发誓我真的有朋友。听起来我很戒备，但...我不知道。我思考过这个问题。

there. But I have friends, but I I swear I got friends. You know, like I sound very defensive. I but like I I don't know. Like, I've thought about this.

就像，这是唯一让我觉得数字对不上的事。大学朋友大多结婚了，也有几对离婚的。高中朋友我还有很多联系，基本也都结婚了。

Like, it is the one thing where I'm like, the numbers aren't this off. Yeah. But I don't know. Because I even like, my college friends, mostly married, you know, couple divorces in there. High school friends, I got a lot of those still, mostly married.

是啊。但你知道，我40岁单身，我们就是...很少收到消息。我知道我不是一个人。

Yeah. But I don't really you know, I'm 40, I'm single, and we just we just don't hear from, you know, like, know, that I I I know I'm not alone. Yeah. No. I was I

我跟几个认识的男性聊过，他们大概也是三十八九、四十出头。他们单身时，我发过几个我认识的单身女性朋友的照片给他们，结果立刻就...就像你说的，他马上就说'她不适合我'。

was talking to a couple of guys I know who are probably, yeah, late days, early forties as well. Mhmm. And they were single and I sent them a couple of pictures of certain girls that I know that are friends of mine that are looking and you know, all that kind of stuff. And it was like immediately it was the point that you said, immediately he was like, nah she's not you know.

不适合我。

Not for me.

不适合我。是吸引力问题，但反应快得惊人。

Not for me. And it was an attraction thing. But it was so like instant.

而女人则会说，比如，多告诉我一些关于

Right whereas a woman will say like, tell me more about

他的事。完全同意。

him. Totally.

对，

Right,

是的。而且这更像是，我不一定认为他配不上她，他只是觉得自己有更多选择权。

yeah. And it was also like, I wouldn't necessarily say that he was out of her league, he just felt he had more choice.

听着，让我，好吧我先倒回去

Listen, let me, well I'll go back

想想。我们聊聊这个吧。

and thought. Let's talk about it.

我们来剖析一下。

Let's unpack.

对，因为我不认为这就是为什么男人总说自己有这么多选择。

Right because I don't think that's why men are saying I have all these choices.

在进入下一个话题前，先听听我们赞助商的消息。

Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors.

我是Radhijavlukha，《真情流露》播客的主持人，有幸与Logan Urie对谈。Logan是约会专家、行为科学家、畅销书作家，更是彻底改变我们看待爱情与约会方式的人物。在这次对话中，我们探讨了Logan研究验证过的所有约会课题——从个人资料该写什么、该用哪些照片、哪些开场白真正有效，到人们可能没意识到却大幅降低成功率的禁忌行为。无论你单身、正在约会，或只是想更认真地对待感情，Logan提供的正是我们都需要的那种清晰认知。

I'm Radhijavlukha and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Urie. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best selling author, and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using to the conversation starters that actually work. And the huge no nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps. Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need.

感情确实需要经营。最好的关系是双方共同努力的结果。人们总是执着于寻找完美伴侣就能拥有完美关系，却忽略了其实可以选择一个优秀的人共同培养感情。不必无止境地追求完美。

Relationships do require work. And the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship, instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together. They don't need to keep searching for perfection.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任意播客平台收听《真情流露》节目。

Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎收听《你与自己的较量》播客。我是莱克斯·巴雷罗。每周我们都会邀请娱乐界重量级人物，探讨那些塑造他们的真实故事——挣扎、疑虑与突破。我们将深入探讨童年创伤、家庭、战胜失去的经历，以及塑造他们人生旅程的关键时刻。这些坦诚对话旨在揭开英雄们的光环，希望他们的人性光辉能激励你成为更好的自己，从而自由追逐梦想人生。

Welcome to the You versus You podcast. I'm Lex Barrero. And every week, we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, growing childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes, with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore, set you free to live the life of your dreams.

先睹为快。

Here's a sneak peek.

我接受的训练是不断竞争，是更加拼搏。但有时这种心态会让你忘记停下脚步，欣赏自己花园里的芬芳。

I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be, like, go harder. But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.

渴望更多有错吗？

Is it wrong to want more?

我们是移民家庭。属于第二代移民。

We migrated. Our family migrated here. I'm like second generation.

欢迎在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任意播客平台收听迈克尔·图达播客网络旗下的《你与自己的较量》。

Listen to You versus You as part of Michael Tuda podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

你的整个人生都是虚构的。挚爱的兄弟离奇失踪。你发现母亲病情的真相，以及这种病态如何在你生命中不断回荡，甚至影响你的家族传承。大家好，我是丹妮·夏皮罗，这些震撼人心的故事将在《家庭秘密》第十二季中展开。节目已收获3700万次下载，我们持续被嘉宾们勇敢讲述的故事所感动和激励。

Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our twelfth season of Family Secrets. With over 37,000,000 downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories.

迫不及待想与大家分享10集全新内容：关于身份错位、被掩埋的真相，以及家庭秘密终将浮出水面的故事。期待您与我和非凡的嘉宾们共同开启新一季《家庭秘密》。请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任意播客平台收听第十二季节目。

I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you: stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

感谢你抽时间谈这个。现在回到讨论中来。

Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion.

我觉得，这很容易把矛头指向单身男性，像是要谴责他们。

Like, I I think that's something that's easy to, like, put on single men to, like, hate on them.

不，所以我在问这个问题。

No. So I'm asking.

是的。我想说...我在节目里说过很多次，兄弟们，凡事都有利弊。生活就像重力，对吧？关键是，一个男人除非被你吸引，否则不会和你约会。

Yeah. I I would say that I I mean, I've said this on the show many like, guys, there's a pro and con. There's there's life is gravity. Right? The the the the the thing is a guy will not go out with you unless he's attracted to

嗯哼。

you. Mhmm.

就是这样。没有其他问题。就像你朋友那样。

That's just no. No other questions. Just like your friend.

事情真有这么非黑即白吗？

Is it that black and white?

就是这么非黑即白。

It's that black and white.

你是说要么被吸引要么不被吸引？还是说...比如我是个...她...我不知道。

I'm saying attracted or not? Or is it like I'm a She's I don't know.

不。男人就像珠子。我能理解看到女性轮廓时的反应。我们会想，嗯。比如纠结穿这种袜子会不会有影响之类的想法。

No. There's it is Men are like beads. I can relate to see the outline of a woman. We go, yeah. Like the idea of like, will it matter if I wear, you know, these types of socks?

不。男人甚至不会注意到。我们只是看到——我被那个东西吸引了。所以当男人说他不感兴趣、不会去的时候，这其实是好事，因为你已经排除了一个可能性。所有女性都能理解这一点：如果你和一个男人约会，你离开家时就知道一件事——他已经被你吸引了。

No. Men don't even notice. We just see I'm I'm attracted to that thing. And so like when when a guy says he's like, not attracted, not going, that's that's a good thing because you're not on a all women can understand that if you're on a date with a guy, if you left the house, you know one thing, he's attracted you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这样想也很美好。你会觉得：我已经解决了一个问题。如果我和女孩约会，我不知道她为什么在那里。我不知道她是被强迫的，还是觉得自己应该来。

That's a beautiful thing too. If you think of it that way, you go, I got one thing out of the way. If I'm on a date with a girl, I don't know why she's there. I don't know if she was forced. She thought she should.

如果她没兴趣，她就不会尝试。

If she didn't go, she's not trying.

这个角度很精彩。

That's a great way to write.

你知道，比如...我不知道。就像我不确定是否能和一个在婚礼当天对我说'起初我觉得你没什么特别，只是人不错'的女人结婚。

You know, like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I could get married to a woman that I had on our wedding day. She's like, At first, I didn't think it was anything. I was nice.

你就像...至少能先迈进门吧。

You're like, you can get a foot in the door.

对吧？这既美好又糟糕。我不想听到我妻子最初说'哦，你知道...'但这种事确实会发生。所有那些结婚女性的故事页面都在说'起初我对他没感觉'。

Right? Well, it's nice and it's bad. Like, I don't want to hear that my wife at first was like, Oh, you know, like, but that happens. You know, at all the our story page for all these women getting married. It's well, at first, I wasn't into him.

然后他走过来，用他湿冷的手碰了我。我想'哦，也许可以约个会'。就像个恐怖故事——这个男人如何死缠烂打追到女人。对她来说是个有趣的漫威式故事。

And then he came over to me and he touched me with his clammy hands. And I was like, Oh, I guess maybe I'll go on a date. Like, it's all this like horrific tale about how this guy like Magooh his way into this woman. And it's like, that's nice for her. That's a fun Marvel, you know, story to tell.

就像...你是，你知道的，你是个开始。但是...

Like, you're you're, you know, you're a beginning. But like Well,

我认为女性更倾向于，我可以接受这种情况。

I think women are also more like, I can work with this.

没错。

Right.

即使某人并不完美，我认为女性更愿意与那些初次见面时并不完全符合她们理想标准的男性约会。

Even if someone is not I think women are more open to dating men who aren't exactly the perfect way that they want them to be as soon as they meet them.

是啊。她们会想，我可以改变他们的穿着打扮，我可以...

Yeah. They're like, I can change what they wear, and I can

嗯，是的。她们...你懂的，她们可以接受或无法接受。而我认为男性不会这么想。某种程度上，这让男性显得更浪漫。

Well, yeah. They're you know, they can yeah. Can work with this or they cannot. And I don't think men are thinking that. And in some ways, that makes men more romantic.

男性会想，如果我不喜欢你现在的样子，我就不会对你承诺。而女性则会想，如果我欣赏本质，是的，我可以慢慢磨合。

They're like, I'm not even if I don't like you just as you are, I'm not gonna commit to you. And women are like, if I like the bones Yeah. I can work with them.

这其实是古老的观点——男性不希望女性改变

Well, it's it's age old idea of men don't want women to change

对。

Right.

但女性总会改变，而女性希望男性改变但他们却不会。就是这样。对吧？就像某种平衡

But they will, and women want men to change but they won't. Exactly. Right? Like it's that balance of like

没错。男性...我是说，我们总听到迪士尼公主的故事，或者迪士尼电影如何让女性相信她们会遇到白马王子，这非常真实。嗯。其实男性也有类似版本，每个成长电影都告诉他们会有这样一个女人出现——她喜欢电子游戏，很酷善解人意。每部青春片里都有个完美女孩，对男主挑三拣四却又是梦中情人，然后男主就沦陷了。

Right. Men are just I mean, like, we always hear about like the Disney princess, or, like, how the Disney movies convince women they're gonna find a prince charming, and that is very true. Mhmm. There's a male version of that, you know, where men have been told in every coming of age movie that this this woman is just going to show up and she's into video games and she's cool and she gets it. Every coming of age movie is some chick who's like, oh, like giving guys crap and like she's like this dream version and you're kind of told and this guy falls in love.

所以你会被告知，好像会有那么一个人出现。突然间，你就会明白了。是的。然后你会想要这种一夫一妻的生活方式。但我觉得这两种说法都不公平。

So you're kind of told that, like, someone's going to come along there. All of sudden, you're going to get it. Yeah. And you're going to want this monogamous lifestyle. And, you know, I don't think either is fair.

是啊。你知道吗？但关于外貌这件事，其实每个人都有自己的偏好。每个人都会被某些特质吸引。就像每把椅子都配得上某个屁股。

Yeah. You know? And but the looks thing, it it's everyone has a type. Everyone's into something. Every there's a butt for every seat.

我是说，虽然这话听起来有点恶心——但每个人都是某个人的菜。比如有些男人会对着脚自慰，你懂的，人数多到色情网站都有直接跳转脚部内容的超链接。所以丑陋甚至不是重点，热辣或性感根本无关紧要。

I mean, I always say, this sounds gross, but, like, everyone's someone's foot. Like there's men out there masturbating to feet, you know, and they they were so many men masturbating to feet that there's a hyperlink on the porn sites that take you directly to feet. So But that's why are someone's foot. Well, that's why I don't ugly is not even like hot or attractive is not even a thing.

对。但我想说的是...我不认为在约会中表现出色的关键是长得好看。我觉得真正重要的是你的态度，以及你有多快乐。一个快乐的人——无论你长什么样——总会有人被你吸引。

Right. But I'm saying that I don't think that it's yeah. It's not like I don't think the key to doing well in dating is being hot. I think it is really about your attitude and, again, how happy you are. I think a happy person and, again, there's gonna no matter what you look like, there's gonna be someone who's attracted to you.

但如果你...假设有人被你的外表吸引去约会，而你带着糟糕的态度，表现得对生活不满，精疲力尽地坐在那里，整个氛围就像在说'他还会发消息给我吗'——这种状态就是在自我毁灭。

But I think if you are if someone's someone could be attracted to you physically, and you could go on the date, and you bring a bad attitude, and you seem unhappy with your life, and you seem and you seem like you're burnt out just from being there, and you're feeling is like, he's, even gonna text me again. Right. Like, I think that that is self sabotaging.

但你能感觉到。听着，Jordana把我那些恶心的话说得动听多了。

But you feel that. Like, as a listen. Jordana took my disgusting speech and made it sound a lot better.

听起来像是...

I It sounds like

就是在约会时你能感觉到。我经常约会，遇到过那种'我受够了'的女人。这时候你就得变成小丑，得说'别这样'。

It is you feel that on a date. Yeah. I go out in a lot of I've been on dates with women who are like the I've had it woman. Like and then you gotta like turn into a clown. You gotta be like, no.

不是碰你耳朵...碰你鼻子...得像哄小孩似的逗她们开心，让她们觉得'嘿，这次约会不至于恶心又可怕'。懂我意思吗？

Not got your got your got your got your ear, like, got your nose. Like, have to like try and make them cheer them up a little bit to like go, hey, we're gonna be on a date that's not gonna be disgusting and horrible. Yeah. Yeah. You know?

所以当有人表现出'我什么没见过'的态度时，你是能感觉到的。而且这种状态很难扭转。

So you can feel when someone's like, I've seen it all. Yeah. And it's hard to get out.

即便你自认为已经具备，关键在于保持你所谈论的那种态度。没错，即使你曾身处其中。

And even if you feel you have, the point is to have the attitude that you're talking about. Right. Even if you have been in

而且你无法命令别人做到这点。我们可以讨论好几天，但最终得靠你自己领悟。

a And you can't tell someone to do that. Like we can talk about it for days, but like you gotta figure that out.

我认为挑战在于回归到关于吸引力的部分——我们总以为有吸引力就意味着对所有人都有吸引力。

Well, think I think the challenge is going back to the part about being attractive, we think being attractive means being attractive to everyone.

没错。

Right.

正是如此。只有当所有人都觉得我们迷人时，我们才觉得自己有魅力。但现实是没人能做到这点，因为无论你处于什么状态或自我感觉如何，总会有人不为你所动。关键在于，如果有人能自信地展现最好的自己，就是在给真正欣赏你的人创造机会。我们都遇到过因态度让人反感的魅力人士。

Right. We only feel hot if everyone thinks we're hot. And the reality is no one feels that way because not everyone's gonna find you attractive no matter how, wherever you are on the spectrum of it or however you feel about it, it's the fact that if someone can go out there, be confident, put the best version of themselves out there, you're giving the person who actually finds you attractive the chance to do that. We've all met people who are attractive that turned us off with their attitude.

完全同意。

Totally.

这影响太大了。

That's like massive.

而且我想我们都遇到过那种起初只是略有好感，但对方表现得如此快乐自信、乐在其中的情况。是的。这让他们更具吸引力。虽然难以量化，但我确信这会改变你的看法。就像当你遇到...

And I think we've met people that were like maybe borderline attracted to but are seem so happy and so confident and so happy to be there Yeah. That it makes them more attractive. I think that there's really like you can't really quantify that but it definitely I'm sure it could sway you too. Like someone who you're.

态度决定一切。就像你到场后感叹'天啊'——回到那些成长题材电影，最终赢得真爱的女主角。你会觉得'天啊，她酷炫有趣，简直完美'。

Attitude because attitude is everything. I mean, like, you get there and you're like, oh my god. Again, to go back to like the, you know, the the coming of age movie, the the the chick who gets it. You know, you go, oh my god. And she's cool and is fun and is like you you go, oh my god, everything's here.

而不是那种'好吧，证明你不是个混蛋'的约会。对的。然后你会想'又来了，我可不想当救世主'。因为如果对方在约会中表现得很痛苦，你会觉得'要是我真让这人开心了，就等于许下了承诺'。

As opposed to being on a date where it's like, okay, know, show me you're not a dick. Yeah. Right. And you're like, okay, I've I've seen this before. You know, like, I'm not gonna be the one that because what happens is if someone's miserable on a date, you're like, if I do make this person happier, now I've made promises to them.

嗯。你知道吗，现在我甚至会过度热情地对待他们，或者类似这样，但其实不是。我不是说为了让他们开心才这么做，而是你自己就像在表演一样。对，我在表演。

Mhmm. You know, now I've, you know, love bomb them or like and not even. I'm not saying you do that to cheer them up, you go, now you've like put on a performance myself. Like, I'm performing. Yeah.

我甚至无法在这里做真实的自己，因为我一直在努力让这个人开心，结果现在我自己反而在假装。

I'm not even getting to be the real me here because I was just spending the whole time trying to get this person to be happy, and now I've faked it.

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Right.

对，对，对，你懂吧？

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know?

我想说的是，这种态度在你进入一段关系后也同样有帮助。很多人觉得，一旦锁定关系就万事大吉了。但关系本身也需要经营。我见过最好的恋爱建议是：如果你总盯着伴侣缺少什么、没做到什么、还能多做些什么，这就是你将面对的现实；如果你关注他们做得好的、比别人优秀的地方，你会感到非常幸运和幸福。

I'm just gonna say, I think that also that attitude thing also helps you once you're in a relationship. I think everyone thinks like, okay, once I like lock it down, then it's over. But relationships are their own level of work. And I think the best relationship advice I've ever seen is that if you look for what's missing from your partner, if you look for what they're not doing, what they could be doing more of, that's going to be the reality that you're living in. If you're looking at what they're doing well, what they do better than everyone else, you're going to feel really lucky and you're going to feel really happy.

所以这种态度不仅适用于单身时，进入关系后更是如此。无论是经营长期婚姻还是恋爱关系，都需要持续培养这种态度——始终关注生活中积极的一面，无论是你自己的还是伴侣的。

So I think attitude just brings you, not even when you're single, but once you're in the relationship, once you're working through that, once you're changing into a relationship that's a long term marriage or just a long term relationship, I think that's the attitude is something you really need to keep working on and always be trying to be in a place of looking for what's working and looking for what's good whether it's your own life or your partner.

没错，TikTok、Instagram和播客上那些关于阿尔法男性和高价值女性的讨论，给女性施加了必须像模特一样的压力。要穿什么都好看，不穿也好看，诸如此类。男性则被要求必须赚六位数、开豪车、前途无量。

Yeah, I think this alpha male high value woman conversation on TikTok, Instagram, podcast has put this pressure for women to think you've got to look like a model. Right. You've got to look great in these clothes without clothes, whatever, right? There's that pressure for women. And the pressure on men is you better be earning multiple 6 figures, you better drive an amazing car, you better have a great future.

而人们看着这两方面的标准，都觉得无法企及。

And everyone's looking at both of those things going, I can't live up to either of

是啊。

them. Right.

对吧，你也这么觉得吗？

Right. Right. Do you see that?

作为男人的好处在于，我不需要想太多，这也是我觉得幸运的地方。在约会这件事上，也许我赚得不多，但我觉得我不必为了其他男人而‘做正确的事’。比如，我从不觉得其他男人会评判我的约会方式。

Well, beauty of being a man is that I don't think and this is where I feel lucky, is that when it comes to dating, maybe I'm not making that money, but I can I don't think I have to, like, do the right thing by other men? Like, I never feel judged by other men for how I date.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且我认为，当我们听到女性谈论约会时，她们总是在想：我这样做对吗？这条短信合适吗？这种方式正确吗？这就像是，你在问谁呢？谁有资格评判？

And I think when we hear from women that are dating, they're always wondering, am I doing it right? Is this the right text? Is this the right way to go? And it's almost like, who are you asking? Who's to say?

我觉得在那些关于‘我们需要向谁交代’的对话中，我在感情关系里感受不到压力。但从另一方面，我能感受到类似‘第一次约会该穿什么？’这样的问题。她们问我们时，好像我们真知道答案似的。就像在问‘我们约会该穿什么？’

And I think when it comes to those conversations of, like, you know, who we answer to, like, I don't feel the pressure with relationships. You know, I can feel it from the other side of like, hey, what should I wear for a first date? You know, like, when we get that question, like, they're asking us as if we know we're talking. You know, like, and it's like, should we wear for the date?

你怎么回答？

What do you say?

穿让你感到舒适自信的衣服就行。嗯。这又回到Jordana说的，像饮食和运动的标准答案。人们想听到的就是这个。

Whatever makes you feel comfortable and confident. Mhmm. And that's, again, to what Jordana said, the diet and exercise of answers. Like, one wants to hear that. Yeah.

但确实有女性写信咨询这类问题，她们的心态就是‘请告诉我这样做是对的’。

Well and and but you have women that write in about this, and you're like, that comes from a place of like, please tell me I'm doing this right.

没错。人们想要规则。人们想要那种秘方、公式。但实际上，关键是你自己以及什么对你有效。

Right. People want rules. Right. People want, like, the secret sauce, the formula. And really, it's about you and what works for you.

这又回到了一个不那么花哨的

And that's, again, like, a less flashy

是啊。

Yeah.

但事实就是如此。没有一种行为方式适合所有人，也没有一个人能吸引所有人的兴趣。关键在于如何成为最好的自己，而每个人都是独特的个体。

Answer, but that's that's the truth. There is no one way that everyone should act. There's no one person that everyone should be interested in. It's like about what makes you the best version of yourself, and everyone is a different person.

每次听到有人说'高价值'这个词，我就觉得这人完蛋了。太糟糕了。真的。既糟糕又完蛋。他们完全搞错了重点。

Every time I hear someone say the phrase high value, I'm like, that person is screwed. Awful. Yeah. Just awful and screwed. They're thinking of the wrong thing.

他们是被网络影响了。

They're thinking of the Internet.

对。我

Right. I

认为。这就是现代约会的问题所在，也是为什么你很难真正欣赏伴侣的优点——因为你总是在刷手机，看到别人的伴侣。比如那个Pookie和Jet的梗，别人的伴侣送了名牌包，别人的伴侣安排了疯狂约会。

think. And that's that's the issue, I think, with modern dating. Modern and it's why it's so hard to sort of, like, appreciate the things about your partner that you really love because you're seeing you're scrolling all the time, and you're seeing someone else's partner. You just I think of the Pookie and Jet thing. Like, someone else's partner surprised them with this bag or someone else's partner is taking them on these crazy dates.

然后你看着自己的伴侣心想：我的疯狂约会呢？我的惊喜旅行呢？但你甚至没想过：这真的是我想要的吗？这真的适合我吗？

And it's and you look at your partner, and you're like, where's my crazy date? Where's my, like, spontaneous surprise trip? And I think that, again, you're not even thinking about it. Is that even something I want? Is that even something that works for me?

永远在比较。以前人们没这种困扰，看不到每对情侣精心展示的高光时刻。没人会发吵架视频，没人会把睡前愚蠢的争执po上网。

Just constantly comparing. And before, you really didn't get that. You didn't get the behind the scenes of every single couple's highlights of like, the best moments that they have together. No one's putting their fights up. No one's putting the, like, stupid argument that they had before bed on the Internet.

所以你根本看不到别人的问题，直到刷到离婚声明时才恍然大悟。太真实了。

So you're not seeing what's not working for other people until you see the divorce post, and then you kinda kinda gotta go through the back. That's so true. The back.

这就像25年前人们社交圈更小时的状态。

It's almost like twenty five years ago you spoke to less people.

没错。

Right.

你曾深入了解他们。是的。而如今你接触到更多人，却只停留在肤浅的表面。假如你有四位好友，你会清楚谁濒临离婚、谁正经历困境，因为你们彼此敞开心扉，互相解决问题。而现在，你看到的只是某人为了内容而进行的旅行。

You knew them really deeply. Yes. And today you are exposed to more people but you know them in a really shallow surface way. And so if you had four friends, you knew who was on the verge of divorce, who was having a tough time because you all opened up and you were helping each other out with their problems. Whereas today, you're seeing someone who just took that trip for content.

那甚至算不上旅行，纯粹是内容素材。他们出去度了个赞助之旅，现在表现得好像'那位丈夫总爱突发奇想'之类的人设。

Like it wasn't even a trip, it was content. And they went away and they got this sponsored trip and now it's like, oh, that husband does spontaneous stuff or whatever it may be.

没错，然后你会误以为自己感情中缺少什么——其实并非如此。你看到的只是单方面展示，你根本不真正了解这些人。

Right, and then you think there's something lacking in your relationship when there's not, you're only, again, you're only seeing this one side of it and you don't really know these these people that well.

你们刚才提到信息交流，有人咨询该怎么写信息。你们听说多少人用ChatGPT代写回复了？你们对此怎么看？

You're talking about messaging there and people asking you what messages should we write. How much are you hearing about people getting chat GBT to write their messages back? And how how are you both feeling about it?

越来越多。这很有趣，因为又回到'我想做对，怕犯错'的心理——所以干脆让ChatGPT给出答案，自己就不用思考了。

More and more. It's it's funny because, again, this goes back to I wanna be right. I don't wanna do this wrong. So let me go to chat GPT, and it will tell me an answer that I don't have to think about it anymore.

听着，我认为ChatGPT作为工具确有价值，就像其他工具一样。你可以用它，但别直接复制发送。我们做过一期节目：先让某人写分手短信——约会三次后表示没兴趣。

Well, listen. I think that there's some merit in chat GPT as a tool, like anything else. I you should use it, not even read it, and send it. But I think it's like we did an episode where we did first, someone writes in their breakup text. They're texting someone after three dates to say they're not interested.

然后让ChatGPT写同样的内容。ChatGPT写得更好。

And then we have ChadGBT write the same text. ChadGBT is better.

确实不错。

Not a bad job. Yeah.

但未经润色。

Not edit well.

它更成熟些...但够个性化吗？未必。我认为应该修改后再用。不过如果它能帮人们成为更友善的社会成员，或至少提供个起点，我觉得没问题。

It's a little more mature. It's a little well is it as personal? Probably not. I think you should edit their thing. But I think if it can help people act like a nicer, better member of society or at least give them somewhere to start, I'm okay