杰伊必听推荐：你还困在童年创伤中吗？（跟随3个步骤，最终治愈）特邀嘉宾：加博尔·马泰与奥普拉·温弗瑞

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

我是医生。

I'm Doctor.

斯科特·巴里·考夫曼，《心理学播客》的主持人。

Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast.

这是一段关于如何成为更好的自己的即将播出的对话片段。

Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you.

当你思考情绪调节时，除非你认为会有好的结果，否则你不会选择一种需要更多努力的适应性策略。

When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome.

回避更容易。

Avoidance is easier.

忽视更容易。

Ignoring is easier.

否认更容易。

Denial is easier.

复杂的问题解决需要付出努力。

Complex problem solving takes effort.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《心理学播客》。

Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

创伤的第一课是它总会留下痕迹，即使你看不见。

The first lesson of trauma is that it always leaves a mark, even if you can't see it.

如果你曾问过自己，为什么我会这样反应？

If you've ever asked yourself, why do I react like this?

为何这份悲伤比应有的程度更深？

Why does this sadness feel deeper than it should?

为何我背负着无法言说的痛苦？

Why do I carry a pain I can't explain?

那么这期节目就是为你准备的。

Then this episode is for you.

美国70%的成年人一生中至少经历过一次创伤性事件。

Seventy percent of adults in The US have experienced at least one traumatic event in their lives.

但创伤并不总是显性的。

But trauma isn't always loud.

有时它表现为过度追求成就、讨好他人，甚至情感封闭。

Sometimes it looks like overachieving, people pleasing, or even emotional shutdown.

61%的首发抑郁症患者和51%的复发性抑郁症患者报告有童年或近期创伤经历。

Sixty one percent of patients with first episode depression and fifty one percent with recurring depression reported childhood or recent trauma.

但好消息是，你完全可以重塑身体与创伤的关系。

But here's the good news, you can literally rewire your body's relationship to the trauma it carries.

今天我们将深入探讨创伤的本质、它的隐匿性，以及最终治愈所需的条件。

So today we go deeper to understand what trauma really is, how it hides, and what it takes to finally heal.

你将听到博士的见解。

You're going to hear from Doctor.

加博·马泰关于隐藏真实自我的情感代价。

Gabo Mate on the emotional cost of hiding who you are.

约翰·传奇关于没有结局的哀伤。

John Legend on grieving without closure.

奥普拉·温弗瑞与医生。

Oprah Winfrey and Doctor.

佩里谈重新思考创伤的力量，安妮塔谈遗传创伤与代际恐惧。

Perry on the power of rethinking trauma, and Anita on inherited wounds and generational fear.

以下是这节课的内容。

Here's the lesson.

你并非破碎不堪。

You're not broken.

你背负着本就不该由你承担的东西。

You're carrying something that was never meant to be yours to begin with.

让我们深入探讨。

Let's get into it.

头号健康与养生播客。

The number one health and wellness podcast.

杰伊·谢蒂。

Jay Shetty.

杰伊·谢蒂。

Jay Shetty.

独一无二的杰伊·谢蒂。

The one, the only Jay Shetty.

医生。

Doctor.

加贝尔·马特揭示了一个强有力的真相。

Gabel Mate delivers a powerful truth.

当你为了度过童年而隐藏真实的自我时，这种生存方式可能会变成终身的创伤。

When you hide who you really are to survive your childhood, that survival can turn into lifelong trauma.

这种压抑日后可能表现为焦虑、慢性疾病或人际关系中的疏离。

That suppression can show up later as anxiety, chronic illness or disconnection in your relationships.

例如，近80%的自身免疫性疾病患者在发病前都报告经历过重大情绪压力。

For example, nearly eighty percent of autoimmune patients report a significant emotional stressor before onset.

研究表明，早年压抑情绪会增加成年后患抑郁症或成瘾行为的风险。

Studies show that burying our emotions early on can increase our chances of developing depression or addictive behaviors in adulthood.

好消息是压抑不一定要

The good news is that suppression doesn't have to

是

be

永久的。

permanent.

治愈不是要改变你是谁。

Healing isn't about changing who you are.

而是重新找回那些你不得不放弃的自我部分。

It's about coming back to the parts of yourself you had to leave behind.

我常对人们说，痛苦总是难免的。

I often say to people, you're gonna have pain one way or the other.

是的。

Yes.

你愿意选择哪种痛苦？

Which pain would you like?

因为生活中有时就是没有无痛的选择。

Because sometimes in life there's no pain free options.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可以承受压抑自我的痛苦，嗯。

You can have the pain of suppressing yourself Mhmm.

为了被接纳，或者有时你可以承受做自己却不被接纳的痛苦。

For the sake of being accepted, or you can have the pain sometimes of being yourself and not being accepted.

嗯。

Mhmm.

无论哪种方式你都会承受痛苦。

You can have pain one way or the other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我个人倾向于认为，不能做自己的痛苦终究是更严重且更持久的慢性痛苦。

Now I have my own bias that the pain of not being ourselves ultimately is by far the greater and the more chronic pain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而做自己带来的短期痛苦会带来解放和真正的独立，这意味着我能与那些愿意接纳真实独立的我的人建立真正独立的关系。

And that the pain the short term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence, which means I can have genuinely independent relationships with other people who are willing to accept me as independent.

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白吗？

You know?

但在短期内，你愿意选择哪种痛苦？

But in the short term, which pain do you want?

嗯。

Mhmm.

并没有无痛的选择。

Not there's no pain free option.

你知道吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

确实。

For sure.

你提醒我想起一行禅师分享的这个美好理念：痛苦分为熟悉的痛苦和陌生的痛苦。

That you reminded me of this beautiful idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares that there's familiar pain and unfamiliar pain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是我们的两个选择。

And these are our two choices.

而挑战在于，我们对陌生的痛苦如此恐惧，以至于宁愿选择熟悉的痛苦，重复经历同样的痛苦，只因我们知道那会是怎样的感受。

And the challenge is we're so scared of unfamiliar pain that we would rather choose familiar pain and go through the same pain because we know how it's going to feel.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我们想着，至少我清楚，至少我明白情况能糟糕到什么程度。

And we think, at least I'm aware, least I am conscious of how bad it can get.

确实如此。

Exactly.

但听你这么说，无论是独立还是依赖，两者都有痛苦。

But hearing you speak, being independent or being dependent both has pain.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，依赖的痛苦远超过独立的痛苦。

And, but the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.

嗯，这里需要稍微细化一下。

Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there.

终极而言，我是说，一行禅师也曾谈过相互依存。

Ultimate I mean I mean, Thich Nhat Hanh also talked about interbeing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们如何相互关联。

How we all inter are.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以在某种意义上，我们确实相互依赖，这没关系。

So in a certain sense, we do depend on each other, you know, and and that's okay.

问题在于我们是真实地还是虚假地相互依赖？

The question is do we depend on on each other authentically or inauthentically?

我独立的事实并不意味着我不会寻求帮助

The fact that I'm independent doesn't mean that I'm not gonna reach out for help

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者我不会主动提供。

Or that I won't offer it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这确实意味着我会对你坦诚相待，不会假装成另一个我本不是的人来换取你的接纳。

But it does mean that I will be honest with you, and I won't pretend to be somebody else that I'm not so that you'll accept me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白吗？

You know?

所以这两个听起来很相似的短语之间存在一个有趣的用词差异。

So there's anything interesting word difference between two phrases that sound very familiar.

一个叫个人主义，另一个叫个体化。

One is called individualism, and the other is called individuation.

粗犷的个人主义是'我不需要任何人'，你知道的，就是'我与世界为敌'，这是北美资本主义的理想。

Now rugged individualism is I don't need anybody and I you know, it's me against the world, and this is the North American capitalist ideal.

明白吗？

You know?

其实，如果人类真是那种粗犷的个人主义者，我们根本不可能进化至今。

Well, human beings never would have evolved had we been those rugged individualists.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那些顽固的个人主义者撑不过一代人。

The rugged individuals wouldn't last more than one generation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但个体化意味着我们能够做真实的自己，同时与他人建立真诚的关系。

But individuated means that we can be ourselves, truly ourselves, in genuine relationship with others.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不是那些顽固的个人主义者。

Not rugged individualists.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我是说，最无趣的人就是那些顽固的个人主义者，因为他们看起来都一样。

I mean, the most boring people are rugged individuals because they all look the same.

明白吗？

You know?

所以你可以实现个体化，做真实的自己，同时仍然归属于群体，仍然渴望与他人建立脆弱的联系。

So so you can be individuated and be truly yourself and still belong and still vulnerably desire human contact, you know.

是的，我完全同意。

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

我觉得……

I think there's

现在有很多论调说我们不在乎别人怎么想，这无关紧要，你只管做自己——这种说法几乎带着一种愤懑的情绪，因为事实上我们确实需要在意他人的看法。

a lot of rhetoric around we don't care what anyone else thinks and it doesn't matter and you just do your own thing and it's almost, that's almost a bitter response as well because we do have to care what people think.

如果我们生活在一个完全不在乎他人看法的世界，那将是非常不健康的，因为人们会做出各种不堪入目的可怕行为。

If we lived in a world where you didn't care what anyone thought, it wouldn't be that healthy because we would do all sorts of obscene horrific things.

我的理解角度有所不同。

I'd trace it differently.

我很感兴趣。

I'm intrigued.

是啊。

Yeah.

我很感兴趣。

I'm intrigued.

没错。

Yeah.

我不在乎任何人的看法。

I don't care what anybody thinks.

但我在乎自己的行为及其对他人的影响。

But I do care what I do and how it affects other people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白吗？

You know?

还有另一位灵性导师古纳·鲁塔纳。

So there there's another spiritual teacher, Gunnar Rutana.

他写了一本书叫《简单英语中的正念》，嗯。

He wrote a book called Mindfulness in Plain English Mhmm.

我最近一直在研读这本书。

Which I've just been working through recently.

他谈到一种更高的道德观，源于做真实的自己并与内心保持联系。

And he's talking about a higher morality that comes from being truly yourself and in touch.

他说，你不再需要规则了，因为就像圣奥古斯丁说的，去爱然后随心而行。

And he says, well, you don't need rules anymore because it's like Saint Augustine said, love and do what you will.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以如果你真心热爱这个世界，就不必给自己定规矩，因为这份爱会指引方向，嗯。

So if you actually love the world, you don't have to give yourself rules because that love will dictate Mhmm.

你如何对待他人。

How you act towards other people.

我不能担心别人怎么想。

I can't worry about what other people think.

听着。

Look.

如果我在意他人看法，就一本著作也写不出来——因为每本书都在挑战主流正统观念，无论是医学领域，还是关于紧张性缺陷、压力与疾病，或是成瘾问题。

If I worried about what other people think, I would not have written any of my books because each of my books challenge the the reigning orthodoxy in, say, medicine, you know, or whether it's our under tension deficit or stress and disease or addictions.

每次写书时，我都在表达某种认知——并非宣称这是独创，而是经过审慎思考后，嗯。

Every time I write a book, I'm saying something that I'm not saying that I invented it, but that I I've come to understand and prudently Mhmm.

确信并希望传达的观点。

Believe and want to communicate.

但我不能担心别人怎么想。

But I can't worry about what other people think.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者当我发表政治声明时，我要对自己说的话、说话的方式负责，但不必为别人的想法负责——但这并不意味着我可以忽视他人的感受。

Or when I make a political statement, I'm responsible for what I say, how I say it, but not what other people think about But I but that doesn't mean that I can that I can ignore other people's experience.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以只要我的初衷纯粹是为了说出真相，并且我以正直的方式表达，我就不能担心别人怎么想。

So as long as my intention is purely to speak a truth and I do so with integrity, I can't worry about what other people think.

我...我真的不能。

I I I can't.

是啊。

Yeah.

但这并不意味着我会到处做糟糕的事...嗯。

But that doesn't mean I'm gonna go around just doing terrible things Mhmm.

因为我不在乎...不在乎你怎么想。

Because I don't care what what you think.

只要我确信自己的行为...如果我做过那种自省...嗯。

As as long as I'm convinced that what I do if I've if I've done that kind of inventory Mhmm.

而我并不总是这样。

And I haven't always.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但如果我做个盘点，我在这里的意图是什么？

But if I do an inventory about, well, what is my intention here?

痛苦或创伤是否存在等级之分？

Is there a hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of trauma?

你说的等级是什么意思？

What do you mean by hierarchy?

我觉得人们会认为，这种创伤比那种更严重，而这种创伤又比那种好一些。

I feel like people feel like, this trauma is worse than this trauma and this trauma is better than this one.

我们经常听到这样的讨论。

We often hear about that as a conversation.

这准确吗？

Is that accurate?

可以说确实如此，因为如果你比较一个遭受性侵的孩子和一个父母只是无法尊重、接纳和认可其情感的孩子，天哪。

So one could say so, because if you look at a child who's, say, sexually abused as opposed to a child whose parents just can't honor and accept and and and validate their emotions, well, my god.

你谈论的是两种截然不同的经历，所以确实有些人遭遇了可怕的伤害，而另一些人则以完全不同的方式受到伤害。

You're talking about two different set of experiences so that there's certainly horrific things happen to some people to wound them and other people suffer wounds in a very different way.

但问题是，做这种区分有用吗？

But the question is, is it useful to make that distinction?

认识到这一点是一回事。

It's one thing to recognize it.

但假设你是我的四岁孩子。

But let's say let's say you were my four year old.

你来找我说，我害怕某某某。

You come to me and you say, that I'm afraid of so and so.

我说，振作起来。

And I say, snap out of it.

只有懦夫才会害怕，然后离开这里照顾好自己。

Only cowards are afraid, and then get out of here and take care of yourself.

然后你去找妈妈，说，我试着和爸爸谈过，但你知道，让你妈妈说‘振作起来’会有帮助吗？

And then you went to your mom and said, I tried to talk to daddy, but, you know, would it be helpful for your mother to say, oh, snap out of it.

想想那些遭受性虐待的孩子们。

Think of all the kids that are being sexually abused.

想想那些挨饿的孩子们。

Think of all the starving kids.

想想那些被轰炸的孩子们。

Think of all the kids that are being bombed.

你还有什么可抱怨的？

What are you complaining about?

这会有帮助吗？

Would that be helpful?

不会。

No.

所以这不是一个有益的游戏。

So that it's not a helpful game to play.

我不会比较人们的创伤。

I don't compare people's traumas.

创伤简单来说就是伤口，人们以各种方式受伤。

Trauma simply means a wound, and people are wounded in all kinds of ways.

当我试图帮助他人时，最无益的做法就是告诉他们别人的创伤比我的或你的严重得多。

When I try to help people, the least helpful thing I can do is to tell them that somebody else's trauma is much worse than mine or much worse than yours.

所以客观来说确实如此，但实际这种区分毫无帮助。

So objectively, yes, practically, it's not a helpful distinction.

人们受伤了，你就必须处理伤口，无论它是什么。

People are wounded, and you have to tend to the wound, whatever it is.

你看，如果你手臂划伤来找我缝合，我告诉你'这有什么好担心的'根本无济于事。

You know, if you came to me with a cut on your arm and you asked me to stitch it up, it wouldn't be helpful for me to tell you that, oh, what are you worried about?

外面还有手臂骨折的人呢，甚至更严重的伤势不是吗？

There's people with broken arms out there or people with broken you know?

所以尽管这话有道理，但进行这种比较确实毫无帮助。

So, no, it's not a helpful thing to engage in even though there's truth in it.

是啊。

Yeah.

在接下来的对话中，约翰·传奇将坦率讲述失去孩子的深切个人伤痛，以及他和克莉茜如何不是逃避痛苦，而是共同面对。

In this next conversation, John Legend opens up about the intensely personal loss of losing a child and how he and Chrissy didn't avoid the pain, but rather walked it together.

每四次妊娠中就有一例以流产告终。

One in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage.

过去一年里，有太多亲友向我倾诉他们的类似经历。

I've had so many friends and family members over the last twelve months tell me about that in their experience.

然而对妊娠失败的沉默，往往和失去本身一样令人痛苦。

Yet the silence around pregnancy loss can be just as painful as the loss itself.

约翰的故事对我们所有人都是一个提醒。

John's story is a reminder for us all.

悲伤不是可以解决的问题。

Grief isn't something that can be solved.

它只需要被看见。

It just needs to be seen.

重点不是要克服它。

The point isn't to get over it.

重点是在经历它的同时，不失去那些让你完整的爱、真诚与联结。

The point is to get through it without losing the love, the honesty and the connection that makes you whole.

你提到了悲伤与新事物，新专辑里的《碎片》这首歌。

You mentioned grief and the new, the song Pieces in the new album.

是的。

Yeah.

有句绝美的歌词：让你破碎的心学会在碎片中生活。

There's the beautiful lyric, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces.

我真的...我完全无法停止思考这句话，因为我们总是试图让所有事情都严丝合缝。

And I just, I literally just haven't stopped thinking about that because I think that there's so much about us that's constantly trying to get everything to fit.

即使对于心灵，我们也总想让它重新变得完整——但歌词却说：让你破碎的心学会在碎片中生活。

And even with the heart we're trying to become whole again, like there's always that concept, but you're like, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces.

这想法是从哪里来的？

Like, where did that come from?

这就是整首歌的精髓。

Like, that's the idea.

这首歌想表达的是：我们永远无法完全摆脱或遗忘生命中经历的创伤、失去与心碎。

The idea of the song is that we never completely shed or forget this trauma that we may go through in life, this loss, this heartbreak.

就像我们会记住的那样。

Like we'll remember it.

总会有那么些时刻，记忆的刺痛会重新袭来。

There'll be times when we'll feel those pangs of memory that it'll come back.

这不意味着你无法痊愈，不意味着你无法恢复，但这确实意味着那份悲伤仍将成为你的一部分，成为你故事的一部分。

It doesn't mean you can't heal, it doesn't mean you can't recover, but it does mean that that grief will still be a part of who you are, a part of your story.

真正从中恢复并不意味着遗忘，不是当它没发生过，而是学会与之共处，学会继续带着它生活，体验之后的生命、欢乐、痛苦以及生活带来的一切，继续活下去。

Effectively recovering from that means not forgetting it, not that it didn't happen but learning to live with it and learning to continue to live with it and experience life and joy and pain and all the things that come in life afterwards continue to like live on.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管这份悲伤永远不会完全离开你。

Despite the fact that this grief won't ever leave you completely.

是啊。

Yeah.

这几乎就像我们在问错误的问题。

It's almost it's almost like we're asking the wrong question.

我们总是在问：我该如何继续前行？

We're always like, how do I move on?

我该如何跨过这道坎？

How do I get over this?

而你说，其实

And you're saying, well

而你说你会——我是说你会带着它走下去。

And you're saying you're gonna I'm saying you're gonna carry it.

它现在已成为你生活的一部分。

It's it's part of your life now.

它已成为你故事的一部分。

It's part of your story.

它已成为你身份的一部分。

Part of who you are.

就像我对克丽丝说的，我在我们的悲痛和悲剧中见证了如此多的成长。

Like I said with Chrissy, like, I've seen so much growth through our grief and through our tragedy.

这将永远是我们身份的一部分，我对此感到坦然。

It's always gonna be part of who we are and I'm fine with that.

就像它是我们身份的一部分。

Like it's part of who we are.

我们带着它前行，这没关系。

It's we carry it with us and it's okay.

是的。

Yeah.

还有...我对你的损失感到抱歉，我想让你知道，我认为没有什么比你所经历的更难熬的事了。

And that and I'm sorry for your loss and I'm letting you know that I mean, I don't think there's pretty much anything harder to go through than than what

你们...是的。

you've Yeah.

我从未经历过比这更艰难的事，但这只是意味着，当你活得足够长时，总会经历类似的事情。

I've never been through anything harder but it just means, you know, when you live long enough, you're gonna go through something like that.

并学会如何带着这份伤痛继续生活...是的。

And figuring out how to continue to live as you carry that with you Yeah.

这就是这首歌真正要表达的。

Is is what the song is really about.

是的。

Yeah.

我们常常发现那些创伤和艰难经历会让人分道扬镳，但你却专注于让彼此更紧密。

And often we find that those traumatic and difficult experiences can break people apart, but you focus on growing closer together.

你认为这种差异是什么？

What do you think is that difference?

就像你的价值观如此清晰。

Like your values are so clear.

在这次采访中我能感受到，比如对儿童、家庭、爱、善良和连接的价值观。

I can tell in this interview, I'm like values of children, of family, of love, of kindness, of connection.

在那种时刻你是怎么做到的，是你的价值观推动你前进吗？还是说你有特别的坚持方式？

Like how do you in moments like that, is it that your values just drive you forward or like how do you make sure?

因为我觉得有时候人们会经历一些事，把其他一切顺利的事情都打乱。

Because I think sometimes people just have experiences that derail their everything else that's going right.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我也说不清，因为我觉得部分原因是我们已经建立了很好的基础——我们真正尊重、相爱并享受彼此的陪伴，尊重彼此的价值观和方式，你知道，我们当初爱上对方性格的那些特质依然存在。

And I don't know because it's like, I think part of it is just we are we were already on a great foundation where we really respected and loved and enjoyed being with each other, respect each other's values and the ways, you know, the things that we saw in each other's character that we fell in love with were still there.

但我觉得你也必须愿意去共同面对痛苦，明白吗？

But I think you also have to like commit to working through pain, you know?

我认为我们双方都承诺要完成这件事，完成我们需要做的工作来度过难关。

And I think we both committed to doing it, like doing the work that we needed to do to get through it.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我很高兴听到这个，你知道的，祈祷和

No, I'm happy to hear that and you know, prayers and

谢谢。

Thank you.

祝你一切顺利，还有

Good wishes with you and the

家人，因为是的。

family because Yeah.

我认为已经有两个孩子确实很有帮助，因为他们给我们的生活带来了如此多的欢乐、笑声和乐趣，他们是我们精力的重要寄托。

I think having already had two kids together was definitely helpful because they just bring so much joy into our lives and and laughter and fun and they they're a great focus for our energy.

是的。

Yeah.

所以即使你在为失去一个胎儿而深深悲痛时，你仍然有这两个你深爱的美丽宝宝。

And so even when you're going through deep grief on losing a pregnancy, you still have these two beautiful babies that you love.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这确实很有帮助。

And I think that was certainly helpful.

我是医生。

I'm Doctor.

斯科特·巴里·考夫曼，《心理学播客》的主持人。

Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast.

这是一段关于探索人类潜能的即将进行的对话片段。

Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential.

我曾去学校试图教孩子们这些技能，却遭到老师们的白眼，还有学生说'直接揍人一拳更容易'。

I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face.

当你考虑情绪调节时，除非你认为某种适应性策略能带来好结果，对你有益，否则你不会选择这种更费力的策略。

When you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not gonna choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's gonna be beneficial to you.

因为很容易就会说'去你的'之类的话。

Because it's easy to say, like, like, go you go blank yourself.

对吧？

Right?

这很简单。

It's easy.

多喝一杯啤酒很容易。

It's easy to just drink the extra beer.

忽视、压抑看到烦人的同事然后直接转身走开很容易。

It's easy to ignore, to suppress seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way.

回避更容易。

Avoidance is easier.

忽视更容易。

Ignoring is easier.

否认更容易。

Denial is easier.

喝酒更容易。

Drinking is easier.

大喊大叫很简单。

Yelling, screaming is easy.

解决复杂问题、冥想，你知道的，需要付出努力。

Complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《心理学播客》。

Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

接下来，我们将听到奥普拉和医生的对话。

Next, we'll hear Oprah and Doctor.

佩里挑战了我们对创伤应有形态的认知。

Perry who challenge what we think trauma should look like.

你并不需要经历暴力或戏剧性事件才会受到创伤。

You don't need a violent or dramatic event to be traumatized.

忽视、缺乏认可或情感缺失同样具有破坏性。

Neglect, lack of validation, or emotional absence can be just as damaging.

事实上，情感忽视是最常见却又最容易被忽视的创伤形式之一。

In fact emotional neglect is one of the most common and overlooked forms of trauma.

奥普拉为探索自身创伤史的人们重新构建了问题——从'我哪里有问题'转变为'我经历了什么'。

Oprah reframes the question for people exploring their own traumatic history from what's wrong with me to what happened to me.

这个微妙的转变，这一个问题就能彻底改变我们看待自我的方式以及我们的疗愈过程。

That small shift, that one question can completely transform how we see ourselves and how we heal.

关于创伤，你曾有过哪些误解或不完整的理解，而现在认识变得更全面或更深刻了？

What do you think was something that you misunderstood or had an incomplete understanding of about trauma that has now become more complete or more deep?

哦，这问题问得太好了，Jay。

Oh, what a great question, Jay.

在写这本书并与Bruce交谈之前，我对创伤的理解是这样的。

I thought trauma prior to my conversations with Bruce in in doing this book.

我曾以为创伤必须是那种惊天动地的大事。

I thought trauma had to be a big gigantic thing, experience.

你必须经历一场海啸——不是字面的海啸，而是生活中类似海啸般的重大危机。

You had to go through a tsunami, literally, not literally a tsunami, a tsunami like crisis in your life.

比如火灾、飓风、悲剧、车祸、被刺伤、亲友离世这类事。

A fire, a hurricane, a tragedy, a car accident, a stabbing, somebody died.

但通过与他合著这本书，我明白了真正起作用的是那些持续不断的小事。

And it was through co authoring this book with him that I understood that it was the consistent little things.

是生活中那些显性和隐性的伤害，塑造了一个人的世界观。

It was the aggressions and microaggressions in a person's life that causes them to have their own worldview.

每个人的世界观都各不相同。

Whatever that worldview is for you is different from me.

所以我最大的领悟是：创伤不一定要带着大写字母'T'那么醒目。

So the biggest learning for me is that trauma doesn't have to have a great big old capital T on it.

关键在于你被爱的方式。

It's really how you were loved.

忽视与创伤总是相伴而行，因为两者同样具有毒性。

And that neglect and trauma are hand in hand because both are equally as toxic.

就像你通过数百万听众积累访谈经验一样，这些年的受访者就是我最好的课堂。

And so I'd always, you know, just like you with your, you know, millions of listeners, over the years of interviewing people, it was my greatest classroom.

我总是关注人们所说的话，并关注他们的生活。

I was always paying attention to what people were saying and paying attention to their lives.

我所理解并能表达的，不是通过科学而是通过自己的观察，是人们的失调、不快乐和生活中的迷失，与他们偏离自我核心的程度成正比。

And what I understood and could articulate, not through science but just through my own observation, is that, oh, people are as dysfunctional, as unhappy, as disoriented in their lives based on how far they are from the center of themselves.

而核心所在即是完整之处，如你所知。

And the center is where wholeness lies, as you know.

因此，当没有核心、没有完整感和自我之爱时，生活就会出现混乱、混沌、困惑以及功能失调。

And so where there is no center and there is no sense of wholeness and love for yourself, there's going to be disarray, chaos, confusion, and, you know, dysfunction in your life.

我一次又一次地看到，人们的行为取决于他们如何被爱，以及他们如何能够处理这种爱去爱他人。

And I saw that over and over and over again, that people behave based on how they were loved and then how they were able to process that in a way to love other people.

所以布鲁斯只是为我提供了这方面的科学依据。

And so Bruce just gave me the science for that.

这本书所做的就是为我提供了这方面的科学解释。

What this book did is gave me the science for it.

我很喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

我认为这是对创伤认知的绝妙区分——我们以为的创伤与每个人可能经历的创伤之间的区别。

I think it's a brilliant distinction between, you know, what we think is trauma and what trauma can be for all of us.

在我们与布鲁斯·佩里博士展开对话前，我最后还有一个问题想问你。

I have one last question I wanted to ask you before we dive in to the conversation with Doctor.

布鲁斯·佩里。

Bruce Perry.

这个观点是：你采访过如此多有影响力、成功的人士，以及来自不同背景和各行各业的人们。

It's this idea that you've interviewed so many influential, successful people and people of all different backgrounds and walks of life.

因此，他们的成功往往实际上是建立在创伤之上的。

And so often their success is actually built on their trauma.

所以他们的成功往往无法让他们感到满足。

And so their success doesn't often satisfy them.

你见过他们如何超越成功、疗愈创伤，最终找到真正属于自己的成功吗？

What have you seen has been that transition when they go beyond their success, they heal their trauma to actually find true success for themselves?

这是个层次复杂深刻的问题。

That is deep layered complex question.

这就是我...

This is what I this

这其中有很多层次。

is what there's many layers to that.

我意识到的是，如果你获得成功和名声，特别是名声，因为名声本身就是个独特的世界，它实际上建立在他人对你的看法之上。

What I what I realize is that if you come into success and fame, in particularly fame, because fame is its own world in definition, because it really is based upon what other people think of you.

因为名声不是你怎么看待自己，而是别人怎么看待你。

So because fame isn't what you think of yourself, it's what other people think of you.

如果你带着不稳固、不坚定的自我进入那个世界，你就会被外界而非内心所控制。

If you come into that and you don't have a grounded, centered self, you will be controlled by the outside instead of the inside.

如果你在尚未完全认清自己、不知道该如何运用这名气的情况下进入那个世界，那么别人是否喜欢你就会决定你今天过得好坏。

And if you come into that not in the fullness of knowing who you are and what you're supposed to do with that fame, whenever somebody likes you or doesn't like you, that determines whether or not you are having a good day or a bad day.

你就已经失去了对自己生活的掌控。

And you have lost control of your own life.

所以我认为名声很快教会你的是：要培养内在的完整性，这样你才不会被外界的评价所左右。

So I think what fame teaches you quickly is to grow the wholeness within yourself so that you're not controlled by others outside opinions of you.

这是个绝妙的回答。

That is a beautiful answer.

我认为这会引发许多人的共鸣，因为我们大多数人都在追求成功、成名或致富等目标的道路上。

And I think it will resonate with so many because so many of us are on that journey to, you know, be successful or be famous or be rich or whatever it may be.

但从这个角度来听确实令人耳目一新。

But to hear it from that perspective is truly refreshing.

我想先问你们两位一个问题：为什么要把思维从'你哪里出了问题'转变为'你经历了什么'如此重要？

I want to ask you both this first question to start with is why is it so important to make this switch from us thinking what is wrong with you to what happened to you?

让我来回答这个问题，因为我最初是在一次与医生的访谈中接触到'你经历了什么'这个问题的。

Well, let me answer that because I first came across this question of what happened to you when I was doing an interview with Doctor.

几年前我为《60分钟》节目采访普鲁斯特·佩里医生时。

Proust Perry a couple of years ago for sixty Minutes Story I was doing.

我认识佩里医生。

Now I've known Doctor.

已有三十多年了。

Perry for over thirty years.

最早在80年代末90年代初的《奥普拉秀》上采访他时，我们就在讨论育儿问题，以及0-6岁这个阶段的重要性。

I first started interviewing him in the early '90s, late '80s, early '90s on the Oprah show when we were talking about raising children and how important it is those first zero to six years.

所以我早就听说过早期培养和支持大脑发育的意义。

So I've been hearing about what it means to nurture and support the brain early on.

但直到几年前那次谈话。

It wasn't until that conversation a couple of years ago.

我不知道是否因为当时我的人生阶段不同。

I don't know whether I think it's because of where I was in my life at the time.

我在南非开办了一所学校。

I opened a school in South Africa.

我曾目睹这些出色聪慧的女孩们，她们来自创伤背景，长大后却面临严重的心理健康问题。

I've had these wonderful, brilliant girls who come from traumatic backgrounds grow up and have really serious mental health issues.

当时我一直在试图找出：我们的学校到底哪里做错了？

And I was trying to, at the time, figure out what are we doing wrong at our school?

这里确实存在严重问题。

Something's really wrong here.

而在那次与医生的访谈中。

And in that interview with Doctor.

佩里博士说，当孩子们的行为不符合预期时，大多数人会问‘他们有什么问题’。

Perry, he said, most people ask the question when kids are not behaving the way you want them to behave or what's wrong with them.

我们真正应该问的是‘你经历了什么’。

We really should be asking about what's happened to you.

那一刻，我的大脑仿佛被击中。

And something went, in my brain.