第28集 - 为何公共部门可能成为市场的强大塑造者

我们将创建这个测试平台，通过该平台，你可以进行实验，观察哪些方案有效、哪些无效，并设置适当的防护措施。必须从一开始就确保采购流程的正确性。这样才能开展项目筛选、研发及规模化工作。记住，我会回到你们的创新者这个话题。公共部门已经投入了数十亿英镑的资金。

Will create this test bed, and through that test bed, you might be able to experiment and see what's working and what's not working and put the right guardrails around it. You have to get the procurement processes right, right from the beginning. As a result, can do the scouting, the R and D and the scaling. And remember, I'll go back to your innovators. There are billions of pounds that have been spent by the public sector.

他们迫切希望创造更多价值。你可以成为这个生态系统的一部分。

They're desperate to add more value. You can be part of that ecosystem.

深度访谈科技领域最具影响力的创新高管，独家数据与全球主要及新兴生态系统的洞察，全球范围内最热门的科技与开放式创新资讯。每期节目还有更多精彩内容。欢迎收听《开放式创新对话》。关注桥梁建设，与行业领袖畅谈。

In-depth interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena, exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world, the hottest news on technology and open innovation at global level. This and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks. Mind the bridge, chat with industry leaders.

今天的主题是公共采购及其在推动地方生态系统创新方面的作用。我邀请到了一位对此话题有深刻见解的嘉宾，他凭借当前职务和过往经验积累了丰富知识。这位嘉宾是Rakesh Shah，现任Connected Place Catapult创新采购与动力中心负责人，同时以伦敦交通局（TFL）Aspen项目创新部门负责人的身份广为人知。你好，Rakesh。

Today's topic is public procurement and its role in boosting and powering innovation specifically for local ecosystems. And I have a person that knows a lot about this topic for his current role and his prior experience. And this person is Rakesh Shah, that is currently serving as the head of innovation procurement and power center at Connected Place Catapult, but is also very well known for being the person leading the innovation department at Aspen for London, TFL. Hello, Rakesh.

你好，下午好Alberto，很高兴见到你。

Hello, good afternoon Alberto, great to see you.

荣幸之至。让我们直入主题。我认为这个问题贯穿了你的整个职业生涯——你曾领导伦敦交通局的创新工作，该机构在公共组织创新方面成就斐然，特别是在通过初创企业推动创新方面堪称典范。而你现任职务也与公共采购密切相关，你的专业能力更获得了皇家艺术学院和哈佛工程学院讲师身份的认可。

It's a pleasure. So let's go straight to the topic. I think that is currently, again, this is part probably all your entire professional career. Again, you have been leading Transport for London, the innovation activities, think Transport London has done a lot and has been one of the role models in innovation for public organization, specifically innovation through startups. And then again, your current role is close to the topic of public procurement and again your expertise is also recognized since you are a lecturer at the Royal College of Arts and also the School of Engineers at Harvard.

因此我相信你能为我们深入解析公共采购对创新的作用。我将直接切入重点，帮助听众理解为何公共采购可能改变现状——不仅对初创企业，也对公共机构产生变革性影响。

So again, I think there is a lot that you can tell us about the role of public procurement on innovation. So I will go straight to the point and help our audience understand why public procurement might change the situation, might change the situation specifically for startup, but also for public organisations.

是的，我认为首先，非常感谢阿尔贝托邀请我。我想说的第一点是，采购这个词有时会被视为一个乏味且官僚的术语。但让我先提供些背景：英国公共部门每年在采购上的支出高达4000亿英镑。如果我们考虑整个欧洲乃至全球范围，政府用于采购的金额将达到数万亿欧元。公共部门当前面临的挑战比以往任何时候都多。

Yeah, and I think the first, well firstly, thank you Alberto for having me and I think the first thing is procurement sometimes is seen as a can be seen as a boring term and a very bureaucratic term. But let me just give you some context. The public sector in The UK spends £400,000,000,000 a year on procurement. And If we think about how much is being spent across Europe or across the world, it would be trillions of euros that's been spent by the government on procurement. What we do know with the public sector is it has more challenges than ever before.

想想过去几年，生活成本危机、新冠疫情，公共部门各机构的财政都很紧张。与此同时，我们还面临气候紧急状态、儿童保育服务、社会护理、医疗健康、安全保障等诸多领域需要公共部门提供服务。因此我们必须思考：公共部门该如何花钱？我们在公共领域的资金使用存在哪些挑战？

You know, we think about the last few years around the cost of living crisis, around Covid, finances for agencies across the public sector are tight. Also in parallel, we have challenges like the climate emergency, we have child care services, social care, health, security and so much more that the public sector needs to provide services for. So what we need to do is we need to think about how does the public sector spend money? How do we spend money in the public sector? And there are some challenges.

常见挑战之一是招标时往往只有一家公司投标。我最近看到英国21%的招标项目只有单一投标者。市场也普遍反映，在创新领域与公共部门合作非常困难——流程被认为过于复杂。但考虑到资金规模，这其实蕴藏巨大机遇。我们需要打破'公共部门必须包揽一切'的固有观念。

Know some of the challenges are far too often when a procurement goes out only one company bids. I saw a statistic recently in The UK that 21% of tenders have a single bidder. Or sometimes the market is saying it's really hard to engage with the public sector when it comes to innovation. It's seen as too difficult, too complex, but given the size of the price, there's a massive opportunity. And I think we have to challenge that notion, which is the public sector has to do everything itself.

我见过太多技术主管和首席工程师总想自主发明解决方案。其实他们更应该做的是：向市场开放现有问题，而非事必躬亲或过度规定需求。这对我们而言正是机会——技术发展日新月异，听众中可能就有创新者。如何引入这些创新？因为现在准入门槛已大幅降低。

I've seen too many CTOs chief engineering officers who feel like they need to invent the solution But I think what they need to do is rather than trying to do everything themselves or rather prescribing when they go out to the market is to be much more open with the market with the problems that it has. And that's an opportunity for us because the technology is advancing at such a fast rate. Some of your listeners could be innovators. That how do we bring some of that innovation in? Because the barriers to entries have come right down.

我们拥有多元供应商：初创企业、成长型公司、企业开放创新部门、学术衍生机构等。作为公共部门，我们该如何培育这个市场？本质上我们需要更快、更好、更省地实现目标——重点不在于争第一或当发明者（这是我常听到的误区）。如果事事从零开始，成本必然更高、风险更大。何不引入外部成熟创新来降低风险？关于公共采购与创新的关系：凭借庞大预算，公共部门能强力塑造市场和创新生态，但必须基于准确定义的问题与语境。

And we have diverse suppliers, you know, whether it's startups, whether it's scale ups, whether it's corporate open innovation departments, whether it's academic spin outs. How do we start curating that market as the public sector? Because fundamentally we need to deliver better outcomes, cheaper outcomes, quicker outcomes So it's not about being first. It's not about being an inventor And that's something I hear too much from CTLs But I think it's because if you try and do everything from scratch It always costs more money and the risk increases Whereas why don't you de risk it by bringing innovation from the outside when it's already been proven and let the market come up with some of the ideas So you asked me about the role of public procurement and innovation The public sector, because of the budgets that it has, is an incredible shaper of markets It can shape the innovation ecosystem. But we've got to do that by defining the right problems with the right context.

提出过于宏观的挑战却无力应对市场反馈是徒劳的。要具体化问题，同时主动扫描市场——通过Mind the Bridge等平台快速广泛地寻找创新者，在供应链中寻求多样性。不要总与固定伙伴合作（他们或许优秀，但需要验证）。建立测试平台来降低风险：公共部门常困于文化、风险和失败顾虑，而测试平台能帮助验证方案可行性并设置合理边界。必须从一开始就规范采购流程，这样才能顺利推进市场扫描、研发和规模化。

There is no point going out with really high level challenges which the market responds to and you can't deal with those responses. To contextualize the challenges that you're facing I think the other thing is scout the market You have a brilliant platform through mind the bridge Scout fast, scout wide because you just don't know where that innovator could be and look for diversity through your supply chain Don't always work with the same old people. They might be good, but test it validate it Also create some test beds to de risk It's far too often in the public sector we worry about culture, we worry about risk, we worry about failure We'll create this test bed and through that test bed you might be able to experiment and see what's working and what's not working and put the right guardrails around it. You have to get the procurement processes right, right from the beginning. As a result, you can do the scouting, the R and D and the scaling.

最后提醒：公共部门投入的资金高达数十亿英镑，他们极度渴望增值。你可以成为这个生态的一部分。但关键点是：公共部门不能盲目追逐热点，无论是AI、机器人、机器学习、计算机视觉、量子技术、新材料还是数据领域。

And remember, I'll go back to your innovators. There are billions of pounds that are being spent by the public sector, and they're desperate to add more value. You can be part of that ecosystem. And the final point is the public sector cannot call for the hype. You know whether it's AI, whether it's robotics, whether it's machine learning, whether it's computer vision, quantum or new materials, data and so forth.

他们必须成为明智的客户，真正理解当市场提出创新想法时，你是否真正明白这些想法的含义？同时你是否已让组织做好准备？因为买家可能不止一个，而是多个，要确保他们随时可以采购。从许多方面看，这与私人买家采购并无不同。但我们需要确保公共部门更具企业家精神，要思考价值观念，管理文化并管控风险。

They've got to be the intelligent client, so really understand that if the market is coming up with new ideas that are innovative, do you really understand what they mean? And also have you lined up your organization? So that buyer, which isn't always one buyer, it could be multiple buyers, is ready to buy. So in many aspects, it's no different to buying as a private buyer. But what we need to make sure is the public sector is much more entrepreneurial, thinking about values and managing the culture and managing those risks.

你知道吗？这能为纳税人和更广泛的公共部门创造巨大价值，从而实现更好的成果。

And you know what? It can add significant value to the taxpayer and the broader public sector to achieve better outcomes.

不，毫无疑问确实如此。但我一直在听你讲，我觉得你说得太对了。我在想那些在公共机构工作的典型人群。问题在于大多数时候，他们遵循极其严格的流程从非传统供应商那里选择通用解决方案，而这套流程根本无法适用于寻求新颖方案时的情况，因为后者必然伴随一定风险。我认为核心问题在于：如何推动这些人在为规避风险而设计的组织中承担风险。

No, definitely, no doubt about that. But I was I was all listening to your saying, I think, is so obvious. I'm thinking about the typical people that are working in public organization. And the problem is that most of the time picking up on an utility solution from a non traditional creditor supplier following on a very, very strict process that cannot be applied when you are looking for something novel, exposed to a certain level of risk. And I think the big problem is how to push these people to take some risk in organization that are designed for the good, for the totally risk averse.

这就是主要障碍。想想为什么我要去做协议里没写的事？协议能保障我的安全。为什么我要为组织、为我的县市或其他任何地方做出更好的选择？这对我有什么好处？

So that was the main barrier. Think why I should do something that is not written in the protocol that keep me safe, why I have no upside in making a better choice for my organization and for my county, for my city or for whatever

你提出了一个绝妙的观点，我认为这需要大胆的领导力——既需要政治家的领导，也需要行政人员的领导。因为我们往往因循守旧，担心媒体反应，顾虑利益相关方。我认为应该赋予人们尝试的许可：'为什么不尝试20件事？我知道其中18件会失败，但成功的那两件将带来数百万美元（或欧元、英镑）的价值。'我希望大家更具企业家精神，因为当我们陷入困境、迫切需要以更低成本更快解决问题时，就必须创造合适的环境和容错空间，从文化层面看这至关重要。

the And I always ask a brilliant point and I think this is where it needs bold leadership It needs leadership from the politicians and it needs leadership from the administrators Because far too often we stick with the status quo because we worry about the media, worry about stakeholders, we worry about other key stakeholders and I think by giving people the license to say You know what, why don't you try 20 things? And I know 18 of them won't work But those two that will work will bring back millions of dollars worth of value or millions of euros worth of value or pounds And I want you to think more entrepreneurially because if we're desperate and we're stuck and we need to do things better cheaper quicker We've got to create the right conditions in the right environment and also the air cover to be able to get things wrong and I think that's critical from a cultural point of view.

谈些更具体的吧，你目前正在负责英国公共采购创新项目，能否详细介绍一下？

Going to more concrete and actually your current experience, you're currently running a UK programme on public procurement innovation. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

是的，我有一份很棒的工作。作为创新采购赋能中心的负责人，我很幸运能与杰出的顾问团队和优秀同事共事。我们的核心课题是：如何通过采购引入创新来创造更大价值。这不仅关乎英国，我与欧美亚的同行交流时，他们经常提到世界各地都有出色的创新者。

Yeah, so I've got a fantastic job. So I'm the head of the Innovation Procurement Empowerment Centre, and it's a really fortunate job that I'm involved with. I have a brilliant advisory board and a brilliant team and it's fundamentally about how can we get more value by bringing innovation in or through bringing innovation in by the use of procurement. This isn't just a UK issue. I talk to colleagues across Europe, The US and Asia and they quite often say to me there are some brilliant innovators out there.

我只是不知道如何引入并扩大规模，为我的地区创造更多价值。对我来说，关键在于与地方当局合作，与区域机构合作，同时也与国家机构和公共机构合作，将采购作为创造新价值的推动力。Connected Places Catapult是英国的加速器。我们是非营利性的，因此我们的驱动力完全中立，专注于创造最佳价值。那么我们如何帮助公共部门策划市场，引入一些创新者，并实现更好的成果。

I just don't know how to bring them in and scale them to create more value for my region. So for me it's about working with local authorities, it's about working with regional bodies, but also national bodies and public agencies to use procurement as an enabler to create new value. The Connected Places Catapult is an accelerator for The UK. We're not for profit, so our driver is absolutely neutral and it's about creating best value. So how can we help the public sector curate the market and bring some of those innovators in and deliver better outcomes.

IPEC的重点非常注重赋能。这意味着赋能从业者、服务所有者和政治家，让他们思考如何提升技能，变得更加具有企业家精神，以更少的资源实现更多。要知道大多数公共部门机构可能将60%至70%的预算用于采购，那么我们如何从中创造更多价值？我们目前专注于几个方面：首先是开发新工具和制定技能提升计划。我们正与希望在空气质量、货运及其负面影响、住房改造以及净零排放等领域引入创新的地方机构合作。但我们不仅仅是运行计划，而是将团队中的主题专家嵌入他们的团队。因此，挑战在于如何从一开始就创造合适的条件，最终实现效益。

The focus of IPEC is very much around empowerment. So that is about empowering the practitioners, the service owners, the politicians to say how can you be upskilled and become a much more entrepreneurial and deliver more with less and that is about you know most public sector agencies probably spend 60 to 70% of their budgets on procurement So how can we drive more value from that? So we're focusing on several things The first area is around creating new tools and creating an upskilling program So we're currently working with local agencies who want to bring new innovation in in areas of air quality in areas of freight and the adverse impact of freight, but also retrofitting of housing and also around net zero But what we're doing is we're not simply running the program for them. We're embedding some of my subject matter experts in my team into their team. And as a result, the challenge is how can we create the right conditions right from the beginning to ultimately get the benefits realization at the end?

我们都见过这种情况：市长出席剪彩仪式，为加速器揭幕，但十二个月后你问发生了什么？有时什么都没发生。因此，我们正努力帮助你们深入细节，创造每一个可能的成功机会。这是其一。

We've all seen it. A mayor turns up cuts the ribbon for an accelerator and then you ask the question twelve months later what happened? And sometimes nothing's happened. So what we're trying to do is help you to get that grittiness that that the detail and you get into the weeds of creating every possible chance of delivering success. So that's one.

我们还成立了一个名为IPEC研究的联盟，与伯明翰大学和曼彻斯特大学合作，但也欢迎其他学术机构加入，旨在提供思想领导力，并围绕通过采购推动创新的角色建立证据。我们如何通过证据展示障碍所在，以及哪些做法有效，从而推动变革？第三方面是我们无法独自完成所有工作，必须建立社区。我们与地方当局、大小供应商以及其他关键利益相关者合作。如果您的观众想注册，请访问LinkedIn上的Innovation Procurement Empowerment Centre，加入社区并分享挑战和优秀案例。其他三个领域包括倡导，与政治家合作确保法规为采购提供更多灵活性；影响，持续研究公共部门机构，了解哪些做法有效，哪些无效，以及IPEC如何提供帮助；最后是伙伴关系，与欧洲及国际上的类似组织合作，确保建立愿意推动变革的联盟。

The other areas we've formed a consortium called IPEC research and then we're working with the University of Birmingham and the University of Manchester but we're open to bringing other academic institutes and that is around how do we provide thought leadership and build the evidence around the role of innovation through procurement? How can we demonstrate where the barriers are through evidence but also where it's working well how do we make the case for change The third area is we can't do everything ourselves we've got to build communities So we're working with local authorities We're working with big sellers, small sellers and also key other key stakeholders So if any of your audience wants to register please go on to Innovation Procurement Empowerment Centre on LinkedIn and join the community and talk to us about some of your challenges but also great case studies The other three areas are ones around advocacy so trying to work with politicians to make sure the regulation enables more flexibility in the procurement so you can bring new innovation in The fifth area is around impact so we're constantly researching public sector agencies to see what's working well what's not working well and how IPEC can help And then the final area is partnerships How can we work with similar organisations across Europe and internationally but also within The UK to make sure we create that coalition of the willing to drive the change.

明年还有很多工作要做，最终我希望IPEC能成为催化剂，通过今年晚些时候英国即将修订的《采购法案》，改变对市场前期参与和市场探索的看法。多阶段采购让你们可以通过一次采购完成研发和规模化。公共和私营机构，特别是大型企业之间的共创。在采购前和合同授予阶段提高支出透明度。有多少资金用于创新？我想多元化供应链，但能否通过采购分配更多资金用于创新？

So lots more to come next year and ultimately I would like IPEC to be the catalyst through the procurement act which is changing in The UK later this year on how it looks at things like pre market engagement and market scouting Multi stage procurement so you can do R and D and scaling through one procurement. Co creation between public and private agencies, particularly the bigger corporates. Also more transparency around spend both at pre procurement level, but also more important than post procurement level at the contract award. How much is being spent on innovation? I want to diversify the supply chain but also can we allocate more funds for innovation through procurement?

公共机构能否分配专项资金？最后，公共部门如何联合起来，创造规模经济，为英国乃至全球其他公共部门机构创造更多价值。有很多工作正在进行，非常令人兴奋，我们很乐意与您的部分观众合作，真正实现这些效益。

Can public agencies allocate dedicated funds? And then finally, how can the public sector join up so it can create those economies of scale and create even more value for The UK and other public sector agencies across the world. So lots going on, really exciting and we'd love to work with some of your audiences to really realize the benefits.

顺便提一下，范围显然包括英国，但也超越英国。因为从今年开始，创新绩效与权力中心将作为初创企业生态系统之星全球奖项的一部分，支持一个特别奖项，以表彰全球公共采购中最有趣的反向实践。这也是分享你们在英国的经验，同时识别国外潜在最佳实践的一种方式，这些实践可能会被引入和采用。我认为这是非常有价值的伙伴关系，我们正期待从中获取更多价值。

And by the way, the scope is obviously UK, but you're going also beyond UK because again, starting this year, the Innovation Performance and Power Centre will support a special award as part of startup ecosystem stars global awards for recognizing the most interesting back practice in public procurement across the globe. It's also a way of sharing your experience that you guys have been doing in The UK with other regions and at the same time also to identify some potential best practice from outside UK to be potentially be important and adopted. So I think this is very valuable partnership that we're really looking for, for gathering some more value out of that.

确实，我很高兴你提到这一点，因为我们必须将公共部门的创业精神常态化——通过从私营部门创造更大价值和引入创新来形成工作方式。因此，如果有优秀案例研究出现，我们应当予以认可和奖励。我们非常荣幸能与颁奖典礼合作，并期待大家提交出色的创意。

Absolutely, and I'm glad you've mentioned that, because we have to normalize this This being entrepreneurial in the public sector to create better value from the private sector and bringing innovation in should be a way of working. And as a result, if there are good case studies out there, let's recognise it and reward it. And we're absolutely delighted to be associated with the award ceremony and we look forward to people submitting some great ideas.

是的，我认为关键议题是初创企业与公共机构之间的合作。我特别想回顾您在伦敦交通局的经验，能否分享几个案例说明这种合作如何产生重大价值和影响？因为通常很难找到真正成功的范例，您能否展示几个案例来体现这类合作能创造的价值？

Yes, talking going to I think the big topic, the elephant in the room is collaboration between startups and public organization. And then again, I think you have a lot of experience and I go back, especially to your experience on Transport for London. And again, can you bring some, a couple of examples of how collaboration between startups and public organization produce significant value and significant impact? Because most of the time it's difficult to identify some real success stories. Can you show a couple of examples just to showcase how much value can be extracted from these kind of partnerships?

当然。伦敦交通系统每天运送约3100万人次，无论是地铁、公交、火车、码头区轻轨还是其他交通方式。作为一个责任重大的实体，我首先想到的是我们通过数据开放实现的合作。当我们向市场公开数据后，Citymapper、谷歌地图、苹果地图等公司基于我们的数据开发了新产品。这给听众的启示是：价值交换不限于资金，数据等资产同样可行。我们的数据开放吸引了1.7万个注册使用实体。

Sure. London's transport system carries about 31,000,000 people every day, whether it's the metro, whether it's the buses, the trains, the Docklands Light Railway cycling and many other modes of transport So it's big responsible entity and if I think about some of the examples you know the first one that springs to mind is us engaging through data And when we released our data, openly to the market we saw the likes of Citymapper, Google Maps, Apple Maps, Mapway, Bus Times and many others creating new products on the back of our data. So one takeaway to your audience is you don't always have to exchange financially. You can always exchange through other assets like data. And what we saw is by releasing our data we had 17,000 entities registered to access our data.

在伦敦，我们很快看到700个应用基于TFL数据诞生，这意味着通过开放数据催生了700家企业。独立研究表明，每投入1英镑就能为伦敦带来130英镑回报——从创新角度看，开放数据的价值难以置信。这让我们思考：既然能通过数据创新，为何不能通过采购工具实现创新？

In London very quickly we saw 700 apps powered by TFO data. That's 700 businesses that have been created through open data. And we ran an independent study and that study indicated that for every £1 we invested we got 130 back to London. So the value of open data from an innovation point of view was incredible. But then other examples were if we thought we could innovate through data, why can't that also be an innovation using procurement tools bring in innovation?

于是我们开始探索开放式创新和市场创新。以'Roadlab'项目为例，该项目旨在减少伦敦道路施工的负面影响（当时每年造成数十亿英镑损失）。我们将采购文件从60-70页精简至5页，确保竞标环境公平。

So we started to think about open innovation, market innovation. And two or three examples that spring to mind one was a program called Roadlab. So that was to reduce the adverse impact of roadworks in London, which was costing London billions of pounds. So we went out with a very simple problem statement and we reduced the procurement documentation from sixty-seventy pages to about five pages. And the idea there was to make sure from a bidding point of view it was a level playing field.

这让初创公司能与大企业同台竞技——大企业有专业投标团队而初创公司往往没有。我们降低保险要求、取消年度营业额门槛等限制性条款后，收到数百份申请。通过路演日筛选出30家，最终选定9家进入十周孵化计划，提供种子资金和专家指导，最重要的是给予真实场景测试机会。我们从建模、3D到机器学习等广泛领域筛选创意，最终为其中两个方案建立商业案例，并与两家供应商签订了直接合作合同。

So it enabled a startup to compete with a large corporate because large corporates have large bidding teams start up stuff always have that. So we opened the competition, we asked a very simple question, we reduced the insurance levels and we reduced the last year's turnover questions and all these difficult ones act as barriers for some smaller companies. And we received hundreds of applicants. We then down selected to 30 through a pitch day. And then from the pitch day we selected nine companies for a ten week programme where we provided some seed funding, access to subject matter expertise, but most importantly access to a live test bed We looked at a wide range of ideas, so from a procurement point of view, generally you look at like for like Here we were looking at ideas from modelling to three d to machine learning through physical barriers so there were nine very different ideas but at the end of it we created a business case for two of the ideas and then we awarded a contract at the end for two of the suppliers who are now working directly with TFL.

这就是一个应用创新合作流程的案例——允许同时进行研发和规模化，过程中可不断迭代。第三个启示是：合作不限于资金交易，这又回到了数据开放的范例。

So that's an example. We applied the innovative partnership procedure which allows you to do R and D and scaling at the same time and you can iterate along the way. So that was one example. And then the third one is you don't always have to engage on cash. Again going back to the data example.

我们曾与一家公司合作发起挑战，旨在鼓励伦敦市民多步行。我们合作的公司名为Go Jaunty，他们通过众包方式收集步行路线，并举办了一场公开竞赛。我们提供种子资金，但他们更渴望获得公关支持和合作伙伴关系。于是我们开始推广Goal Jordin E项目——这是个能促进伦敦主动出行行为的优秀产品。项目初期仅有5000用户，到我参与时已增长至45万活跃用户。这个案例充分说明，在大型企业少量公关支持下，产品就能实现规模化并达成社会效益。类似案例我见过许多，不仅限于TFL（伦敦交通局）。比如上周读到奥斯陆的报道，当地公共机构创建了社区平台，联合各方鼓励更多创新者参与响应。

We worked with one company where we put out a challenge to say we want to encourage people to walk more in London. So we worked with a company called Go Jaunty and what they do is they crowdsource walking routes and we ran a competition so anyone could enter and then at the end of the competition we selected them. We gave them some seed funding but what they wanted was some PR and some partnerships. So we started to raise awareness of Goal Jordin E because it was a great product to encourage more active behaviours in London active travel And what we saw at the end of it is at the beginning they had about 5,000 users Towards the end when I was there they had about 450,000 active users So that's a great example of a product scaling just with a bit of PR support from a large corpora to achieve social outcomes So there are multiple examples that I've seen this and also I've seen it not just with TFL I look at I was just reading last week in Oslo there's a new platform that's created a communities platform by the public agencies where they're grouping together to encourage more innovators to come in and respond.

我还见过英国多塞特郡的应用案例，他们正在探索5G技术如何解决当地挑战；旧金山则通过多元路径推动创新。现在越来越多初创企业正进入采购生命周期并创造价值，我们需要更多讨论这种现象，使其常态化。希望通过颁奖典礼和此类对话活动，能涌现更多案例研究。

Or I've seen applications in Dorset in The UK where they're thinking about the role of five gs and how can five gs help solve some of those challenges that they face in Dorset which is great to see I've seen examples in San Francisco where they're using different routes to bring innovation so I'm certainly starting to see examples now where startups are starting to come through the procurement life cycle and they're starting to add value and I think we need to talk more about this We need to normalize it, and that's we're hoping that through the award ceremony, but also through dialogues like this, we get more case studies coming through

大型企业也是重要参与者，城市、公共机构与企业间的合作同样能催生创新项目。您能否举例说明这种合作模式？

Another important player are large corporations and again, also innovative projects can come out from the collaboration between cities, public organizations, corporations. Do you have any example you might probably refer to just to showcase that?

确实，企业拥有可观的研发预算。但常见的情况是：大企业带着装满产品的公文包来找公共机构，却往往发现这些方案无法解决当下问题。我在伦敦交通局任职时就主张：公共部门为何不在采购前阶段就与私营实体合作研发？这样创新企业能更早介入，通过共创模式明确下游需求。例如奔驰曾找我洽谈联网自动驾驶车辆，我建议暂时搁置自动驾驶部分，先聚焦联网汽车——现代新车平均配备100个传感器。我们共同探讨如何应对伦敦道路伤亡问题，因为被动式事故干预远远不够。

Yeah and I think corporates have significant R and D budgets and far too often I'd get large corporates approaching me and it happens to many other public agencies where you open the briefcase Once you open the briefcase you start showing all the products that you have in your R and D lifecycle. But far too often the buyer would say these are all great ideas but none of them solve the problems I have right now. So something I wanted to flip at Transport for London and something I'm an advocate of is why don't the public sector engage with the private entity at the pre procurement stage to say I want to explore some R and D with you to see what can and can't be done to solve my problems. So suddenly the innovator, the corporate is coming in at a much earlier stage and by having that collaboration, that co creation approach, what you can do is define a requirement downstream. So to give you two examples in London, I was approached by Mercedes Benz and they were talking to me about connected autonomous vehicles and lots of things that they could do for London.

我说：能否暂时搁置自动驾驶部分？先谈谈联网汽车？现代新车平均配备100个传感器。经过沟通，我们意识到不能仅对已发生的伤亡事故作出反应。

I said can we just leave the autonomous bit away just for the time being? Can we talk about a connected vehicle? And an average car has about 100 sensors now an average new car. And then sat down with them we said look people are tragically dying on London's road network. We can't just respond to where people have been killed or seriously injured in terms of our interventions.

我们需要更完善的风险模型。通过与奔驰合作，我们开始识别潜在危险场景：紧急避让、突然加速等行为都是事故前兆。由此发现了伦敦道路网络中未曾察觉的风险模式。通过流程再造和营销推广，我们创造了实际价值。与博世的合作则聚焦计算机视觉，利用新型传感器将居民不良空气暴露量降低20%，并将该模型应用于伦敦1200个交通信号灯改造。

We need a better risk model. So by sitting down with Mercedes we started to understand where there might be near misses, there might be sudden swerving, sudden acceleration, sudden skinning. All of those are risk indicators of a potential incident taking place. And then what we started to see are patterns of potential near misses in London that we didn't know about But then we slowly just re engineered our role and we did some marketing and we saw some value And we did we did something similar with bosh two which is around what's the role of computer vision and how can we use the latest versions of new sensors to create value and what we found is by working with them we created a new model which reduced exposure to bad air by 20% And we changed that. We used that same model for 1,200 traffic signal changes across London.

验证模式有效后，我们与谷歌等企业合作，促使伦敦交通局建立了'创新协作框架'采购机制。该框架旨在与企业共同研发解决方案，若验证成功可直接授予合同。更妙的是，当方案在伦敦见效后，还可联合商业化推广至其他城市。这就是公私部门共创价值的最佳例证。

So as we found that worked, we also worked with Google and others, but as we found that worked, Transport for London created a new procurement framework called the Innovation Collaboration Framework. And the idea there was how can we work with the market, particular corporates, on co developing the R and D solution? And if that's successful, the buyer, in this case Transport for London, can use procurement to directly award a contract and procure items. And then also if it's successful in London, the procurement was designed where London could potentially co commercialise it as the as a partner sells it to other cities. So that's an example of working with the private sector on co creation co development and adding value.

我认为这些事情是可以实现的，但需要具备正确的远见、创造力和市场参与度才能真正创造价值。

And I think these are things that can be done, but it just needs the right foresight, the right creativity and the right engagement with the market to really add value.

也就是说，我认为我们有很多人。如果要总结这场非常有趣的对话中从第一分钟开始的所有内容——毕竟我们过去五到十年间有过数百万次交流，而且我们相识已久——我认为公共机构可以从私营部门（尤其是那些非传统合作对象）中挖掘出巨大的创新潜力。当前这种需求极为迫切，正如提到的，外部环境充满挑战，预算也有限。

That is, I think it's there is a lot of us. So if I need to summarize everything that we say since the first minute of this very, very interesting conversation again from our millions of conversations we have in the past five to ten years, because again we have the pleasure to know each other since a while. I think is, there is a massive potential of innovation that public organization can extract out of the private sector and probably outside of the usual suspects. And there is a gigantic need today to do so because as mentioned, there are challenging external condition. There is high budget.

我们需要用更少的资源做更多事。大多数时候问题出在流程上，因为相关方不习惯这样做。所以如果能改变流程，就能真正释放出这部分巨大潜力。我认为这应该成为主要着力点。我们仰赖像您这样的人过去所做的工作和专业经验。

There is the need to do more with less resources. The problem most of the time is in the process, because the property is not used to do that. So now if you are able to change the process, you can really trigger this like chunk of this massive potential. So I think that should be probably the main masses. I think we rely on the work of people like you and the expertise of people like you that you have done in the past.

我们正在努力不断扩大范围，以实现这场重大转型，因为我们迫切需要它。

We are currently working to make it even broader and broader to make this big transformation happen because we badly need it.

完全同意。

Completely agree.

好的，Rakesh。非常感谢这次对话，让我们继续保持良好合作。我们一定会定期跟进工作进展，并期待下一届初创企业生态圈奖项能发现一些有趣的案例——或许可以被他人复制，因为如果问题在于流程，我们可能只需要借鉴其他地方行之有效的流程并加以采用。

Okay, Rakesh. So thank you so much for this conversation and let's keep up with the good work. We definitely touch base regularly to see how the work is evolving and again looking forward to the next startup ecosystem start awards to identify some interesting use cases, maybe it can be replicated by others, because sometimes if the problem is the process, maybe we just need to copycat processes that are working somewhere else and adopt.

感谢您今天的参与，我们下期《开放创新对话·桥接思想·行业领袖访谈》再见。

Thank you for being with us today and see you in the next episode of Open Innovation Talks, Mind the Bridge, Chat with Industry Leaders.