女权主义伤害了女性吗？

这是开放辩论。

This is Open to Debate.

我是约翰·唐瓦，大家好。

I'm John Donva, and hi, everybody.

今天，我把话筒交给我的同事泽尼亚·威克特，她是威肯工业公司的全球战略顾问和高管教练。

Today, I'm handing off the mic to my colleague, Zenia Wickett, who is a global strategist and an executive coach with Wicken Industries.

与我不同的是，泽尼亚是一位女性，这让她在讨论围绕即将辩论的问题所涉及的世界变革运动时更具优势。

Zenia also, unlike me, happens to be a woman, which gives an edge in talking about the world changing movement involved in the question that will be debated.

你们很快就会明白我的意思。

You'll soon see what I'm talking about.

泽尼亚，交给你了。

Zenia, it's all yours.

开始吧。

Take it away.

这是开放辩论，我是你们的特邀主持人泽尼亚·威克特。

This is Open to Debate, and I'm your guest moderator, Zenia Wickett.

我母亲在南非长大，16岁时来到美国，进入康涅狄格大学读书。

My mother grew up in South Africa and came to The States and to college, University of Connecticut, aged 16.

她进入了一个世界，那里她的母亲坚持要她‘亮相’，而那时‘亮相’意味着不同的事情。

She entered a world where her mother insisted that she came out, which meant something different back then.

这是一种进入社会的仪式。

It was an introduction to society.

想象一下白色的舞会礼服和白色的手套。

Imagine white ball dresses and white gloves.

18岁时，她结婚并有了孩子。

At 18, she was married and had a child.

直到她生完孩子后，才有人向她解释怀孕是怎么回事。

No one had explained how pregnancy worked until after she gave birth.

那是20世纪60年代，不算太久以前，但当时女性所处的环境截然不同。

That was the 1960s, not long ago, but a very different landscape for women.

从那时起，变革的步伐变得迅速。

Since then, the pace of change has been quick.

如今，女性在美国大学毕业生中占多数。

Women now make up the majority of college graduates in The US.

在一些国家，曾经看似不可能的权利，比如开车的权利，已经成为现实。

In some countries, rights that once seemed impossible, like the right to drive, have become reality.

然而，差距依然存在。

And yet, gaps remain.

女性在同等职位上的收入仍低于男性，且在各个领域的高级职位中仍处于少数。

Women still earn less than men in comparable roles, and they remain underrepresented in senior positions across sectors.

正是在这种背景下，我们探讨这个问题：女权主义是否伤害了女性？

It is in this context that we debate the question: Has feminism hurt women?

因此，让我介绍一下我们的辩手。

So, let me introduce our debaters.

支持该观点的一方：女权主义确实伤害了女性？

Arguing yes to the question: Feminism HAS hurt women?

我们有伊内兹·斯蒂普曼。

We have Inez Stepman.

伊内兹是独立女性论坛和独立女性法律中心的高级政策与法律分析师，这两个组织专注于与女性相关的经济、法律和公共政策问题。

Inez is a senior policy and legal analyst for Independent Women's Forum and Independent Women's Law Center, which are organizations that focus on the economics, laws and public policies of concern to women.

伊内兹，欢迎你。

Inez, welcome.

很高兴来到这里。

It's great to be here.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

而在这里，就‘女权主义并未伤害女性’这一观点进行反驳的是，沃尔什博士。

And here to argue no to the question feminism has not hurt women, we have Doctor.

温迪·沃尔什。

Wendy Walsh.

博士。

Doctor.

沃尔什博士被誉为美国人际关系领域的思想领袖，并主持着《博士》节目。

Walsh has been called America's thought leader on relationships and she hosts the Doctor.

温迪·沃尔什在iHeartRadio的KFI AM播出节目，洛杉矶时间06:40，同时主持播客《择偶之道》。

Wendy Walsh show on iHeartRadio's KFI AM 06:40 in LA and the podcast Mating Matters.

她因在‘我也是’运动中的角色被《时代》杂志评为2017年度人物，并在加州州立大学钱德勒群岛分校教授心理学。

She was named a Time Magazine Person of the Year in 2017 for her role in the Me Too movement and teaches psychology at California State University, Channel Islands.

温迪，欢迎你。

Wendy, welcome.

谢谢。

Thank you.

很高兴能来这里。

Happy to be here.

感谢两位加入我们。

Thank you both for joining us.

让我们进入开场陈述。

Let's go to our opening statements.

我们希望你们每位花几分钟时间阐述你们的立场。

We want each of you to take a few minutes to explain your position.

伊内兹，你先来，你主张女权主义确实伤害了女性。

Inez, you're up first, and you're arguing that, yes, feminism has hurt women.

你有四分钟的时间。

You've got four minutes on the clock.

请告诉我们为什么。

Please tell us why.

是的。

Yeah.

正如前面提到的，我在这里是为了支持这一观点：女权运动伤害了女性。

As as mentioned, I'm here to argue for the proposition that the feminist movement has hurt women.

它也伤害了男性、儿童，并且总体上成为幸福家庭的障碍，而家庭对女性的意义感和目标感远比女权主义所提供的任何表面好处都更为重要。

It's also harmed men, children, and generally been an obstacle to thriving families, which are far more important to women's sense of meaning and purpose than any of the ostensible benefits that feminism has provided.

简而言之，根据社会学研究的科学数据，女权主义时代使女性更不快乐、更孤独。

In short, according to the science of sociological research, feminism and the era of feminism has left women more unhappy, more alone.

我还想补充一点，这一点在社会学研究中较难衡量，但女性对自己以及对美好生活的渴望也变得更加迷茫。

And I would add this, it's a little more difficult to study sociologically, but more clueless about themselves and their desires for what comprises the good life.

所以，关于女权主义的争论常常归结为定义问题。

So debates about feminism so often come down to definitions.

看起来整个争论有时完全被定义所裹挟。

It seems like the entire debate is sometimes wrapped up in definitions.

因此，我想从一个我希望对手也能同意的定义开始：'倡导女性在社会、经济和政治上的平等'。

So I wanna begin with one that I hope my opponent can agree to, quote, advocacy for the social economic and political equality of women.

这个定义经常被词典采用。

This definition is often used in dictionaries.

此外，碧昂丝在《完美》这首歌中也使用了这个定义。

In addition, it's it's the definition that Beyonce used in flawless.

因此，它既具有学术性，也具有流行文化的正当性。

So it has both a academic and a pop culture of premature.

我认为这个定义足够宽泛，能够涵盖绝大多数自认为是女权主义者的人，无论他们是学术界人士还是普通人，即使他们在其他问题上存在许多分歧。

And I think it's broad enough to encompass the vast majority of people who would consider themselves feminist, academic, or otherwise, even if they have many disagreements on other issues.

所以，我会直言不讳地说出这一点，但我希望在本次辩论结束时，能让你信服这一点。

So I'll say this bluntly, but I hope by the end of this debate to have convinced you of it.

我不认为这种定义作为目标是可能的，也是可取的。

I don't think that this definition is either as a goal is either possible or desirable.

其简单原因在于，男性和女性在生理上有着深刻而根本的差异，无论从身体上还是从心理上都是如此。

And the simple reason for that is that men and women are deeply, profoundly, biologically different, both below and above the neck.

我会称之为女性主义的核心谎言，它贯穿了所有女性主义浪潮，甚至包括第一波女性主义，即我们日常观察到的男女差异是社会建构的，因此可以并且应该由社会重塑和最小化。

This is what I would call the central lie of feminism, once it runs through all the waves of feminism, even the first, that the differences we observe daily between men and women are socially constructed, and then can and ought to be remade and minimized by society.

我认为，作为社会，我们的目标应该是致力于制定政策和文化，承认男女之间深刻差异这一事实，并围绕一种能实现两性各自价值的生活愿景来构建支持体系。

I think our goal instead as a society should be to strive towards policy and culture that accepts as a fact the profound differences between men and women, and instead build supports around a vision of life that fulfills each sex.

而能实现两性各自价值的内容，很可能大不相同，理想情况下是在家庭中共同实现。

And what fulfills each sex is likely going to look very different, ideally together in family.

这并不意味着我全面反对所有以女性主义名义推进的政策。

That doesn't mean that I blanket oppose every single policy advanced under the banner of feminism.

我相信我们会在其中一些政策上展开大量争论。

I'm sure we'll have plenty of back and forth about some of those policies.

其中一些我反对，一些我支持。

Some of them I pose, some of them I support.

但当我指出女权主义伤害了女性时，我的意思是，我们应当摒弃女权主义的框架及其关于性别差异是社会建构的核心信条，转而追求对男女双方都最有利的路径，并默认性别差异不仅是真实的，而且必然会影响我们的生活轨迹、决策、职业、家庭以及生命中所有重要的方面。

But instead, when I say that feminism has harmed women, I think it is merely that we ought to set aside the feminist framework and its central tenet about constructed difference in pursuing what's best for women and men both, taking for granted that sex differences are not only real, but inevitably do and ought to shape our life trajectory, our decisions, our careers, our families, and everything that is important in life.

最后，我想谈一谈例外情况，我相信我们经常会回到这个话题。

Finally, I wanna close with a word on exceptions, and I'm sure we will often return to this.

我觉得我们目前多少处于一种例外的暴政之下。

I I feel that we live a bit under a type of tyranny of exceptions.

的确，任何关于男女的概括性陈述都存在许多例外。

There are, it's true, many exceptions to any generalized statement that one might make about men and women.

然而，这些例外的存在并不是否认普遍规律。

That being said, the existence of those exceptions, is not a denial of the rule.

而如今，在女权主义时代——或者我们可以称之为女权主义时代——整个社会都如此。

And right now, what we have in the feminist era or what we might call the feminist era is an entire society.

我的意思是，法律、政策、文化和社会潜移默化的引导都是如此。

And by that, I mean law, policy, culture, social nudges.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，所有构成人类共同生活的内容。

You know, everything that comprises living together as human beings.

所有这些都在推动世界向适合女性中少数例外的情况发展。

All of these things nudging in the direction of a world that is comfortable for the exception among women.

我认为，我们应该将我们的文化和社会规则、规范、建议、法律和政策，重新围绕着对大多数人群有益的方向调整。

I think that we should reorient our, cultural and social, rules, scripts, advice, law, and policy around, what is good for the rule.

这意味着，在我看来，要放弃女权主义的核心框架。

And that means, in my opinion, abandoning the central frameworks of feminism.

我认为，我并不是因为心地仁慈，或者从小就被这样教育才走到这一步的。

I did not get to this position, I think, su generous or because I was brought up this way.

事实上，我是在完全世俗的环境中长大的。

In fact, I was brought up completely secularly.

我至今仍是一个不可知论者。

I'd I'm continue to be an agnostic.

我并不是因为受到某种宗教教条的教导才得出这个观点的。

I'm I didn't, you know, come to this position because I was taught it through some, you know, religious sort of dogma or something like that.

我之所以得出这个观点，是通过观察我的朋友、我所爱的人——那些我希望与之相处、非常关心他们幸福的人——他们如何与世界互动，什么让他们快乐，并且观察了两性，最终得出结论：这些差异确实存在许多真实之处。

I I came to this position by observing the way that my friends, people that I love, who I I want to be around them, and and care very much about their happiness, how they interacted in the world, what makes them happy, and observing both sexes, finally coming to the conclusion that in fact, there is a lot of truth to these differences.

他们如今在我们社会中的自我表达方式，与过去已经不同了。

They they they are expressing themselves differently in our society than they did in the past.

但最终，假装这些差异不存在、不塑造我们的生活，已经导致了巨大的痛苦。

But but ultimately, pretending that they don't exist and that they don't shape our lives has led to an enormous amount of misery.

正如我所说，男性和儿童也是如此，但主要且首要的是对女性造成的伤害。

Like I said, men and children as well, but primarily and first and foremost for women.

因此，我支持这一观点：女权主义伤害了女性。

And that's why I am for the proposition feminism has hurt women.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

温迪，你不同意。

Wendy, you disagree.

你认为女权主义并没有伤害女性。

You believe feminism has not hurt women.

你有四分钟时间陈述你的观点。

You have four minutes to make your case.

我相信，女权主义是曾经发生在女性身上最好的事情，它甚至救了我的命。

Well, I do believe that feminism has been the best thing that could have ever happened to women, and indeed, it literally saved my life.

接下来我要讲一些个人经历。

I'm going to get personal here.

对某些人来说，这可能是个触发预警。

Trigger warning to some of you.

当我的两个女儿分别是两岁和七岁时，我被孩子们的父亲打晕在厨房地板上。

When my daughters were aged two and seven, I was knocked unconscious on my kitchen floor by the father of my children.

我不得不独自抚养孩子十八年，并且必须找到生存的方式。

I faced eighteen years of unexpected single parenthood, and I had to find a way to survive.

如果我的危机发生在1974年第二波女权运动改革之前，那后果将是灾难性的。

Now, had my crisis happened before some of the second wave reforms of 1974, my crisis would have been catastrophic.

那时，没有男性作为共同签署人——无论是丈夫还是父亲——我根本无法开设银行账户、申请信用卡、获得汽车贷款或房贷。

I would have been unable to have a bank account, a credit card, an auto loan, a mortgage without a man co signing, a husband or father.

雇主本可以合法地解雇我，或因我是单亲母亲而拒绝雇佣我。

Employers could have legally fired me or chosen not to hire me because I was a single mother.

房东本可以拒绝给我提供住所，这一切都是合法的。

Landlords could have not given me a home, all legally.

作为家庭暴力的幸存者，如果我报警，他们只会说：‘女士，这是私事。’

And as a survivor of domestic violence, if I called law enforcement, they simply would have said, That's a private matter, ma'am.

这不算犯罪。

That's not a crime.

正是因为女权主义，我今天才能站在这里。

It is due to feminism that I am here today.

让我们从第一波女权主义者开始，她们为我们争取到了投票权，使我们能够投票选出制定保护女性政策的代表。

Let's start with first wave feminists who got us the vote so we could vote for policy members who could create protections for women.

随后，第二波女权主义者推动了诸如《同工同酬法》的出台，我从中受益——意味着我所做的工作，能获得与男性同事同等的报酬。

And then the second wave feminists did things like creating the equal pay act that I benefited from, meaning that the job I did, I would make the same amount of money as my male colleagues.

还有禁止职场性别歧视的第七条，以及保障我受教育权利的第九条。

Title VII that prohibited sex discrimination at work, Title IX that afforded me an education.

由于这些改革，我在生育孩子之前就能够拥有事业。

Because of all these reforms, I was able to have a career before I had children.

同样得益于第三波女权主义改革和《平等信贷机会法》，我得以获得抵押贷款，并买下了一栋很小的三单元公寓楼。

Also thanks to third wave reforms and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, I was able to get a mortgage and I plunked it down on a very small three unit apartment building.

当我和女儿们逃离暴力时，我们搬进了一间小小的单间公寓。

When my daughters and I fled violence, we moved into a tiny studio apartment.

这栋我拥有的房产让我们免于陷入贫困。

An asset that I owned that kept us from slipping into poverty.

我还想提一下，早年孩子们还小的时候，我的雇主之一是旧金山的CNET，我成功在劳动合同中写入条款：如果他们让我连续超过24小时无法陪伴孩子，就必须为我支付托儿费用。

I should also say one of my early employers back in the day when my kids were little was CNET in San Francisco, and I was able to write into my employment contract that if they kept me away from my kids for more than twenty four hours, they had to pay for my childcare.

如果没有女权主义，这一切都不会发生。

None of this would have happened without feminism.

而最近，我们见证了#MeToo运动的兴起。

And more recently we've seen the Me Too movement.

感谢谢兰娜·伯克创立了#MeToo运动，并将女权主义的讨论扩展到包括更多有色人种女性和工薪阶层女性的故事。

Thanks to Cheranna Burke who founded the Me Too movement and expanded the feminist conversation to include more stories from women of color and working class women.

你必须明白，在#MeToo运动之前，如果一名女性投诉性骚扰，她会遭到羞辱，常常被解雇，随后被贴上难相处、不好合作的标签，甚至在行业内被封杀。

You have to understand, before Me Too, if a woman complained about sexual harassment, she was shamed, she was often removed from her job, she was then deemed a difficult woman and hard to work for and work with and often blackballed in her industry.

请记住，我们了解到这不仅仅是两个人之间的误解。

Remember, we learned that this wasn't just a misunderstanding between two people.

这是结构性的、系统性的，遍及各个行业。

This was structural, systemic, pervasive across industries.

仅以哈维·韦恩斯坦为例，调查人员发现公司内部早已存在这样的制度。

Use only the example of Harvey Weinstein where investigators discovered that systems were in place.

人力资源高管持续忽视女性的投诉。

HR executives continually ignored women's complaints.

员工的职责之一，就是安排酒店房间的会面，而律师则带着保密协议前来，永久封住女性的嘴。

Employees, it was part of their job to actually arrange hotel room meetings and lawyers came armed with those non disclosure agreements to silence women for life.

多亏了#MeToo运动，超过20个州已出台政策，重塑了职场环境，推动强制性员工培训，最重要的是，禁止了这些保密协议。

Thanks to the Me Too movement, more than 20 states have enacted policies that have shaped workplaces, encouraged mandatory employee training, and more than anything, banned those nondisclosure agreements.

我们今天所处的境地，全都是女性主义的成果。

Where we are today is all because of feminism.

想一想。

Think about it.

我能够逃离暴力。

I was able to escape violence.

我能够养活我的家人。

I was able to support my family.

我能够拥有财产。

I was able to own property.

所有这些都得益于第一波、第二波和第三波女权主义运动。

All this happened because of the first, second, and third waves of feminism.

这些运动 literally 挽救了无数女性的生命。

Literally, these movements have saved the lives of women.

非常感谢你，温迪。

Thanks so much, Wendy.

在我们继续之前，伊内兹，我想再请你回来一下。

Before we go any further, Inez, I want to come back to you for just one moment.

你已经给我们提供过女权主义的定义了，但我还想请你再为记录重述一次。

You've given us a definition of feminism already, but I just want you to articulate it one more time for the record.

为了这次对话，你会如何定义女权主义？

How would you define feminism for the sake of this conversation?

这样我们可以确保大家的理解一致。

Just so that we can make sure that we're all on the same page.

当然。

Sure.

这个定义是：倡导女性在社会、经济和政治上的平等。

So that that definition is, the advocacy for the social economic and political equality of women.

那么，温迪，你愿意使用哪个定义呢？

And and Wendy, what's the definition you're happy using?

我喜欢这个定义。

I love that definition.

我只会改一个词，就是把‘平等’换成‘保护’。

I'm only gonna change one word, and that is protections instead of equality.

好的。

Okay.

现在是个不错的暂停时刻。

That's a good place to stop for a moment.

谢谢你们两位。

Thank you both.

现在休息一下。

Time for a quick break.

回来后，我们将更深入地探讨这个问题。

And when we're back, we'll dig deeper into this question.

女权主义伤害了女性吗？

Has feminism hurt women?

我是扎尼娅·威克特，欢迎收看《开放辩论》。

I'm Zania Wickett, and this is Open to Debate.

欢迎回到《开放辩论》。

Welcome back to Open to Debate.

我是主持人扎尼娅·威克特，今天我们辩论的问题是：女权主义是否伤害了女性？

I'm your moderator, Zania Wickett, and we're debating the question, has feminism hurt women?

我身边有两位辩手：伊内兹·斯特潘，独立女性论坛的高级政策与法律分析师，以及温迪·沃尔什博士，关系类记者，同时也是iHeartRadio上《沃尔什博士秀》的主持人。

I'm here with debaters Inez Stepan, senior policy and legal analyst at the Independent Women's Forum and Doctor Wendy Walsh, relationship journalist and the host of the Doctor Walsh show on iHeartRadio.

在继续之前，我想简要地总结一下你们的观点。

Before we move on, I want to try and summarize your arguments very briefly.

伊内兹，你认为女权主义是家庭幸福的障碍，它让更多的女性感到不快乐、更孤独。

Inez, you think feminism is an obstacle to thriving families, that it's left more women unhappy and more alone.

你对女权主义的定义非常宽泛，即倡导女性在社会、经济和政治上的平等。

You're using a very broad definition of feminism advocacy for the social, economic and political equality of women.

你希望推动一种政策与文化，能够接受男女之间的差异。

And you want to work towards a goal where policy and culture accepts the differences between men and women.

温迪，你曾告诉我们，女权主义如何拯救了你的生命。

Wendy, you told us about how feminism has saved your life.

你曾是家庭暴力的受害者。

You were a victim of domestic violence.

你根本不会在这里。

You wouldn't be here.

要不是女权运动，你的孩子们就不会有母亲。

Your kids wouldn't have a mother were it not for the feminist movement.

你能够拥有自己的事业。

You were able to have a career.

你能够获得与男性相当的报酬。

You were able to have comparable payments to men.

你能够获得抵押贷款。

You were able to get a mortgage.

你认为‘我也是’运动真正让有色人种女性和其他少数群体参与了这场对话。

You believe that the Me Too movement really engaged with women of color and other minority groups in this conversation.

所以我的第一个问题是，这个问题问你们两位。

So the first question I have, and this is one for the both of you.

你们认为什么是证明女权主义是积极影响还是消极影响的证据？

What would you describe as being evidence for whether feminism has been a positive or a negative influence?

它伤害了女性吗？还是对女性造成了损害？

Has it hurt women or has it harmed women?

我们应该用哪些具体结果来评判这一点？

What are the specific outcomes that we should use to judge this?

我认为，关于女性自我报告的幸福感和生活意义与目标方面，我们已经有了相当多的社会学研究。

So I think we have quite a bit of sociological research on self reported happiness and sense of meaning and purpose among women.

此外，如果我们想使用其他指标，比如我听到了很多关于薪酬差距的说法。

And in addition, if we want to use other metrics, right, I heard a lot about, for example, the pay gap.

当我们谈论男女同工同酬时，例如，即使从奥巴马政府在2009年对所有薪酬差距研究的综合总结来看，这一点也很明确。

So when we talk about men and women getting equal pay for equal work, for example, it's pretty clear in this is even from the Obama administration summation, meta summing up of all of these pay gap studies in 2009.

虽然数据有点过时了，但这是当时最大规模的此类数据元分析。

So a little bit out of date, but this was the largest meta study of that data.

研究发现，当控制诸如在职场年限、大学专业、即使在全职类别内的工作时长等因素后，薪酬差距几乎消失了。

And it found that when you control for factors like number of years in the workforce, when you control for college major, when you control for hours worked even among the category of full time, and you control for a bunch of those factors, the pay gap virtually disappears.

我只是不认为，在2026年，美国企业界还普遍存在基于性别的歧视意愿。

I just I do not think that in 2026 that there is some, large, you know, appetite among corporate America, to discriminate on the basis of sex.

这当然违反了第七章，我处理过一些这样的案件。

That is, of course, illegal under title seven, and I work with some of those cases.

但这并不是女性面临的最大问题。

And that is not actually the biggest problem facing women.

现代性最大的问题其实是原子化，这同样致命。

The the biggest problem of modernity is instead is atomization, and that is deadly as well.

我们知道，人们的自杀率更高，女性的自杀率上升速度比男性更急剧，尽管两者都在上升，而男性的自杀绝对人数更高。

We know that that, you know, that people have higher rates of suicide, that women's rates of suicide are going up in a, more sharp way than men's, although both are climbing and men have an absolute higher rate of suicide.

我们知道，女性的幸福感和自我报告的幸福感不仅自1970年以来绝对值在下降，而且相对于男性也在下降。

We know that women's happiness and self reported happiness is declining not only absolutely since 1970, but relative to men.

换句话说，女性变得不快乐的速度比男性更快。

In other words, women are becoming more unhappy faster than men are.

当然，我们不能把这一切都归因于女权主义。

Now none of us you can't attribute all of this to feminism.

这是一个很大的范畴，用这种方式讨论社会趋势很难。

That's a big that's a big category, and it's hard to talk about sociological trends that way.

但毫无疑问，如果女权主义的最终结果是人们所报告的意义感和幸福感如此下降，我们理应质疑女权主义是否真的为女性带来了福祉。

But surely, it should have we should question whether feminism has done well for women if the ultimate outcome has been such a decline in both reported meaning and happiness.

温迪，你同意这一点吗？

Wendy, do you agree with that?

你会提供什么证据？

What what evidence would you give?

嗯，我同意伊内兹说的很多观点，我认为下一波女权主义必须聚焦于母职和家庭。

Well, I agree with so many things that Inez says that I think actually the next wave of feminism is going to have to focus on motherhood and family.

在保护女性的同时，我们也必须以这种方式保护儿童。

As we protect women, we're going to have to protect children in that way.

我认为她忘了去问为什么。

I think she forgets to ask the question why.

她说薪酬差距的存在是因为女性没有选择那些工作。

She says the pay gap is there because women just aren't choosing those jobs.

她们选择了报酬较低的养育和照顾类工作。

They're choosing nurturing, caregiving jobs that pay less.

她们做兼职工作，因为还要抚养孩子。

They're doing part time work because they're raising kids as well.

那么，为什么我们不能建立一个公平的体系来支持这些女性呢？

So why can't we have an equitable system that exists that helps support those women as well?

你知道，如今每一个工作场所都是由父权制设计的。

You know, every place of employment right now is designed by patriarchy.

它是为那些家里有妻子的员工设计的。

It is designed for employees that have a wife at home.

因此，对女性来说，这常常意味着双重负担。

And so for women, it often gives them double duty.

问题不在于女性。

The problem isn't women.

问题也不在于女权主义。

The problem isn't feminism.

问题在于那些为有妻子在家支持的男性员工设计的体系。

The problem is the systems that were designed for male employees who had a wife at home supporting them.

所以我们需要找到一种方式，在每个工作场所为所有父母免费提供托儿服务，无论他们的性别如何。

And so we need to find a way to have childcare in every workplace for free for all parents no matter what their gender.

对吧？

Right?

我记得我们曾在斯德哥尔摩待过一段时间，看到那里通过立法规定父母假，且父母双方都必须休一部分假期，真是令人惊叹——你随处可见满身纹身、留着胡须的爸爸们抱着婴儿，在咖啡馆里换尿布。把生物性别简单划分为两类是如此不公平，因为我们知道，人类在父职投入和性别表达的多样性方面，是灵长类动物中最广泛的。

I look at us having spent some time in Stockholm, it was just amazing to see that since they legislate parental leave and both parents have to take some portion of it, you see these roving bands of tattooed bearded guys wearing babies, changing diapers in coffee shops and to basically take biological sex and put it into two categories is so unfair because we know we have the widest range of paternal investment, we have the widest range of gender expression of any primate species.

因此，用二元对立的框架来讨论这个问题是没有意义的。

And so having a conversation that's binary doesn't make a lot of sense.

我认为温迪刚才说的，正是女权主义乌托邦思想的一个绝佳例子。

I I think this is a really good example when what Wendy just said is a really good example of the utopianism behind feminism.

对吧？

Right?

我认为实际上存在一种不可调和的冲突。

I would say that there is actually an irreducible conflict.

你一天的时间并不是无限的。

You don't have endless numbers in the day.

你不可能做到，一天中的时间是有限的。

You cannot and those numbers of hours in the day.

你无法同时全心投入育儿和全心投入一份要求很高的事业。

You cannot fully focus on motherhood and fully focus on a career, at least a career that is, you know, demanding.

我认为我们应该，我和门迪同意的是，我们应该推行允许女性灵活安排的政策。

I think that we should I and I where I would agree with Mundy is I think we should pursue policies that allow women flexibility.

我在家工作，这让我能有更多时间陪伴女儿。

I work from home, and and that allows me to spend a lot more time with my daughter.

但当你转向斯德哥尔摩或这些政府资助无限产假的愿景时，首先，这并不能解决任何问题。

But I when you move over to Stockholm or these kind of visions of of the government funding endless amounts of parental leave or what what ends up first of all, that doesn't solve any of the issues.

事实证明，斯德哥尔摩的薪酬差距依然存在。

It turns out that the pay gap persists in Stockholm too.

事实上，在收入水平更高、所谓性别平等程度更高的国家，比如瑞典，其薪酬差距甚至比撒哈拉以南非洲还要大。

And in fact, in countries that are higher on the income scale and have higher, quote, unquote, gender equality like Sweden, they have a higher pay gap than they do in Sub Saharan Africa.

为什么？

Why?

因为在撒哈拉以南非洲，女性必须工作。

Because women in Sub Saharan Africa have to work.

换句话说，当女性足够富裕，可以选择陪伴孩子时，她们往往会选择陪伴孩子。

In other words, when women are rich enough to choose to be with their children, so often they choose to be with their children.

实际上，这些性别差异、性别的差异，在女性拥有更多自由和选择时表现得更加明显。

Actually, those gender differences, those sex differences, they express themselves more, the more freedom and choice women are given.

所以，这种乌托邦式的想法的问题在于，许多女性并不想把孩子送去免费的日托中心。

So the the problem is with that kind of utopianism, many women do not want to send their children to free daycare.

这正是托马斯·索厄尔所称的‘观念冲突’。

This is what what Thomas Soell called the conflict of visions.

对吧？

Right?

作为一名保守派，我看到的是一个不可调和的冲突、一种权衡，是自由女性会做出的选择。

I see as a conservative, I see a irreducible conflict, a trade off, a choice that free women will make.

我不认为免费日托或其他类似措施能解决问题，坦率地说，我们已有来自这些社会的数据，表明这并不能解决这个问题。

And I don't think that free day care or whatever and quite frankly, we have the data from those societies that shows that that does not solve the problem.

所以你在这里谈了两件事。

So you're talking about two things here.

首先，你说薪酬差距或幸福感是问题，现在你又说钱是问题。

First, you said that the pay gap was or happiness was the problem, and now you're saying money is the problem.

事实上，我们希望为女性创造一个灵活的环境。

So the truth is we want to have a flexible environment for women.

我认为我们在这一点上是一致的。

I think we're agreeing on this.

例如，你在家里有免费的托儿服务。

You, for instance, have free childcare in your home.

是你自己在家工作。

It's you and you're working from home.

对吧？

Right?

所以我建议每个工作场所都提供免费托儿服务，孩子们就在走廊尽头、会议间隙围绕在我们脚边，我觉得这会很棒。

And so what I'm suggesting is free childcare in every workplace that the kids are down the hall and around our feet in between meetings, which I think would be lovely.

你称之为乌托邦，而我称之为一种可能。

You call it utopia and I call it a possibility.

因此，我真的认为我们需要保护所有父母。

So I really think that we need to protect all parents.

有很多父亲因为想多陪孩子而受到歧视，因为他们越来越注重养育孩子。

There are plenty of dads who are being discriminated against because they wanna spend more time with their kids, because they are more and more nurturing.

这种认为所有女性都会 exclusively 选择母亲角色的想法。

It's this idea of thinking that all women are going to choose motherhood exclusively.

让我告诉你，我做了很多职业决定，这些决定在经济上让我付出了代价，但为了把孩子放在首位，我非常庆幸自己这么做了。

And let me tell you, I made so many career decisions that cost me economically so that I could put my kids first, And I'm very glad that I did that.

但我同样尊重那些选择全力投入事业、依靠社群或部落共同抚养孩子的女性，因为从历史上看，这其实更自然。

But I also respect women who decided to plow ahead with their careers and use the village, the tribe to help raise their kids because that's actually more natural historically.

这种传统核心家庭的概念，在我们人类的进化过程中其实是个相当新的发明。

This idea of this traditional nuclear family is a pretty new invention in our evolution actually.

我们曾经是部落，以群体的方式共同抚养孩子。

And we were tribes who raised people raised humans as groups.

温迪，你谈的是你希望看到的政策变革，以在美国实现更斯堪的纳维亚式的做法

Wendy, you're talking about policy changes that you would like to see to bring a kind of more Scandinavian approach in The

美国。

United States.

总的来说。

In general.

选择。

Choices.

这是为了孩子。

It's for kids.

归根结底，什么对孩子最好？

At the end of the day, what's best for kids?

伊内兹，你希望推行什么样的政策变革？

Inez, what's the policy change that you want?

首先，我不认同孩子在很小的时候就被送到机构环境中，远离母亲是最好的选择。

First of I don't I don't agree that it's best for kids to be in institutionalized settings away from their their mothers very young.

事实上，瑞典提供如此长的产假正是出于这个原因。

And in fact, that's that's the the reason that Sweden extends such a long maternity leave.

因为社会学数据清楚地表明，这实际上对儿童不利。

It's because the sociological data is pretty clear that that is in fact not good for children.

但这并不意味着会永远摧毁他们的生活，或者我们在这里过度夸大了问题。

That doesn't mean that it, you know, destroys their lives forever or we have a kind of catastrophizing thing there.

那么你希望看到什么？

So what do you want to see?

我认为，当前这场讨论中，所有这些生活中的成本和权衡都被推给了雇主。

So I I I think what is happening in this discussion is all of these, like, costs and trade offs of life are being pushed off in this vision into the employer.

这或许可行，而且我支持这种做法。

Now that might work, and I'm in favor of it.

为回答你的问题，我在它可行的情况下支持这种做法。

To to answer your question, I'm in favor of it where it works.

有些工作，比如那些实行弹性工时并不会造成损失的工作。

There are certain jobs that don't lose anything by having flexible hours, for example.

有些工作并不会因灵活性而降低生产力或最终的产出，这些工作实际上在支撑我们薪资的资本主义体系中依然能盈利，它们可以更加灵活。

There are certain jobs that don't lose productivity or or ultimately, production that that actually makes money in the capitalist system that undergirds the salaries that we get, there are jobs that can be more flexible.

事实上，在这些情况下，我非常支持这种做法。

And indeed, in those cases, I'm very much in favor of it.

这正是我的组织允许所有工作都远程进行的原因。

It's the reason that my organization does work do everything work from home.

我们非常支持远程办公和灵活性。

We're very much in favor of work from home and flexibility.

但如果我们一边主张这种灵活性，一边又抱怨女性选择弹性工时，就因为她们收入不如每周在办公室工作五十小时、把全部生活都献给办公室的人，这是不行的。

But what we can't do is then complain when women choose, for example, flexibility of hours, that they are being discriminated against because they don't make as much as somebody who comes into the office fifty hours a week and spends his entire life in the office.

我认为，问题就出在这里，这种想法变得乌托邦了。

That is where I think this gets utopian.

所以，如果我理解得没错的话，伊内兹，你实际上是在说，我们必须做出权衡。

So so correct me if I'm wrong, but Inez, you're essentially saying, we have to make trade offs.

让女性自己来做这些权衡。

Let women make those trade offs themselves.

而温迪，你说我们不必这样。

And Wendy, you're saying we don't.

我们必须改变政策，以确保这些权衡是男女共同承担的，或者找到无需权衡的方法。

We have to change the policy in order to mean make the trade offs either ones that both men and women have to make equally or there are ways of doing this without making trade offs.

这是否大致准确地反映了你们两位的观点？

Is that an accurate reflection broadly of where the two of you stand?

此外，我想从经济角度说，母亲身份对文化和社会至关重要，应该以某种方式得到支持，无论是税收优惠还是直接支付。

Well, also wanna say that from an economic standpoint, motherhood is very important to a culture and a society and it should be underwritten in some way, not whether it's tax benefits or whether it's direct payment.

听好了，父母的工作是养育下一代优秀的员工、企业家，或者可能成为非常昂贵的囚犯。

Listen, a parent's job is to raise the next generation of good employees or entrepreneurs or potentially very expensive prisoners.

如果我们不承认这一点，不找到办法支持家庭、为育儿提供保障，就不能简单地说：‘女性选择少工作，所以她们不该赚得那么多。’

If we don't recognize that, if we don't find a way to underwrite that to support families, then you can't just say, well, women are choosing to work less so they shouldn't be able to make as much.

你假设那个每周工作五十小时的男性会把他大部分工资交给女性或孩子。

You're assuming that that man who works fifty hours a week is gonna take most of his paycheck and give it to a woman or to his kids.

但我知道，超过百分之二十五的女性曾成为家庭暴力的受害者或单亲父母。

But I happen to know that, you know, more than twenty five percent of women become victims of domestic violence and single parents.

并不是所有男人都是好父亲和好丈夫。

Not all men are good dads and good husbands.

你们从年轻人那里听到了什么？

What are you both hearing from young people?

从青少年和二十多岁的人那里，你们听到他们说什么与你们的愿景不同？

From the teenagers and the twenties, what what are you hearing them say they want that is different from your visions?

伊内兹，你先开始好吗？

Inez, do wanna start us off?

我经常在大学校园里演讲，经常面对女性群体，以及很多女孩，这当然是一个自我选择的群体。

I speak quite often in college campuses and often to groups of women and to just a lot of girls, which is admittedly a self selected group.

但我一再听到的，恰恰与主流文化信息相反，那就是她们担心组建家庭。

But what I hear over and over again is exactly kind of contrary to the cultural message, which is that they are worried about building families.

她们担心建立联系。

They're worried about building connection.

她们担心约会市场会彻底崩溃。

They're worried about a catastrophic dating market.

事实上，这正是我之前谈到现代性时所说的内容。

And in fact and and that's what I said about, earlier about modernity.

现代性的挑战并不在于这里所描述的这种个人主义框架，即他们如何在职业生涯中取得进步。

The challenge of modernity is not that individualistic framework that's being laid out here about, you know, how how they can advance in their careers.

甚至也不是‘拥有全部’，那是上一代人的目标。

It's not even having it all, which was the previous generation.

他们担心的是根本无法组建家庭。

They're worried about having families at all.

他们担心的是建立友谊、维持婚姻、组建家庭，因为这些曾经是女性主义运动背景中的默认假设，甚至是需要对抗的目标，如今对这一代女性来说却变得遥不可及。

They're worried about having friendships, having marriages, building families because that has gone from the background of, like, the assumption or even the thing to fight against for the feminist movement to something that seems unattainable and out of reach to this generation of women.

我认为女性主义在创造这种状况中发挥了重要作用。

And I do think that feminism has a large hand has had a large hand in creating that situation.

我在大学校园工作。

I work on a college campus.

我在TikTok上有数百万粉丝。

I have a million followers on TikTok.

其中很多是年轻女性，我有两个女儿，一个22岁，一个27岁。

Many of them are young women, and I'm the mother of a 22 year old and a 27 year old.

伊内兹和我都认为，问题在于连接。

Inez and I agree that it is connection.

问题在于人际关系。

It is relationships.

似乎最大的问题是让男人承诺，但女权主义并没有造成这种情况。

It is getting a guy to commit that seems to be the biggest problem, but feminists didn't create this.

女权主义并没有造成这种情况。

Feminism did not create this.

这是技术造成的，它创造了一个对女性而言似乎无穷无尽的婚恋市场。

This was created by technology, who created a mating marketplace that seems infinite to women.

这些约会应用并不宣传自己促成了多少婚姻，而是宣传有多少潜在的新伴侣可供选择。

Instead of these dating apps advertising how many marriages they've created, they advertise how many new potential mates might be out there.

它们为许多年轻女性制造了选择悖论。

They've created a paradox of choice for many young women.

还有，性革命，阿尼萨和我都同意，对男性的益处远大于对女性的益处。

Also, the sexual revolution, Anissa and I will agree with this, benefited men a whole lot more than it benefited women.

而且，在当前的婚恋市场中，男性实际上正因性资源的过剩而受到伤害。

And men are actually being hurt by the oversupply of sex in our current mating marketplace.

以及现代美国资本主义，它需要员工离开相互关联的多代家庭，前往工作所在地。

And modern American capitalism that needed employees who would move away from interconnected, multigenerational families to go to where the jobs were.

这种高度的流动性造成了孤独感，以及所谓村庄和部落的消失。

This amount of mobility created loneliness, loss of the village and the tribe, if you will.

而我们需要弄清楚如何重新凝聚起来，为这些年轻人重建一个部落。

And that's what we have to figure out how to get back together, to create a tribe for these young people.

我认为这些问题是相互关联的，我非常认同你刚才说的关于流动性、社区丧失的观点。

I think these things are are related, and I agree a lot with a lot of what you just said one day about, mobility, about, the loss of community.

但我再次认为，我们某种程度上低估了那些没有去所谓的‘工作’的女性一代所付出的努力。

But I I again think that we have in some way undervalued the work of the generations of women who did not go to, quote, unquote, work.

她们所做的是建设社区。

It was building that community.

如果你去美国任何一个小镇，你会发现一些十九世纪的美丽雕像，上面刻着镇上的某个象征人物。

If you look at any you go to any small town in America, you you go to, like, a beautiful statue, from the nineteenth century that had some figure of the town.

如今，其中一半在2020年被拆除了，但暂且搁置这一点。

Now half of them have been torn down in 2020, but leave that aside for a moment.

在那座雕像的底部，会写着‘由X镇的女儿们集资建造’或‘由女性们建立的社区’。

At the bottom of that statue, it'll say raised by the daughters of X Town or raised by the the women built community.

即使我们再往前看，比如到二十世纪五十年代——那个常被贬低的五十年代，女性们仍用她们的时间加入教会团体，甚至参与社会 activism。

And even if we go back, you know, forward, let's say, to the nineteen fifties, a much maligned nineteen fifties, women were were using their time to join church groups to, you know, even even social activism.

女权运动之所以能够实现，很大程度上是因为女性的经济需求由家庭结构满足，从而能够走出家门倡导社会变革。

A large part of what was possible, for the feminist movement was possible because women had their economic needs met by the family structure and were then able to go out and advocate for social change.

但女性们当时在举办那些聚餐活动。

But women were doing those potlucks.

她们在举办如今人人都说怀念的晚宴派对。

They were throwing those dinner parties that everybody says now that they miss.

对吧？

Right?

那些

Where did

晚宴都去哪儿了？

all the dinner parties go?

因为我们不能指望男人来承担这些。

Because we can't depend on men to underwrite that.

我确实认为这是一个有趣的承认，而且我甚至承认在你和一些女性的情况下的确如此。

I do think that it's it's an interesting admission, and and I I would even grant that it's true in your case and in some women's cases.

本质上，这个案例建立在‘我们有坏男人’——即坏男人存在的基础上。

Essentially, this case is built on we have bad men, the existence of bad men.

我不认为这实际上是制定政策的恰当方式。

And I don't think that that is actually the appropriate way to to structure policy.

我们当然可以在不推翻整个结构的情况下惩罚犯下如家庭暴力等罪行的男性，而不是简单地说，你知道，女性的所有这些工作都是由她们的丈夫支持的。

We can punish, you know, men who commit crimes like domestic violence surely without overturning the entire structure where you just say, you know, all of this work of women, well, it was supported by their husbands.

在绝大多数情况下，它确实是由她们的丈夫支持的。

In the vast majority of cases, it was supported by their husbands.

这使得她们能够外出做那些在市场上没有得到数量化报酬的事情。

It's what allowed them to go out and do these things that were not numerically paid by the market.

坦率地说，你自己也承认了，市场并不重视这些事情。

And quite frankly, you know, the market you just admitted yourself, the market doesn't value these things.

它们无法产生底线收益。

They don't produce the bottom line.

它们所做的是为男性、女性、儿童和家庭创造值得过的生活。

What they do is produce a life worth living for men, for women, for children, and families.

所以，在Eze，我之前问过，但我不知道你有没有机会回答。

So so in Eze, I I asked earlier, and and and I don't know that you had an opportunity to answer.

你的愿景是什么？

What is your vision?

如果你能打个响指就创造出某种政策或文化环境，你希望看到什么？

What what would you like to see if you could click your fingers and create the policy or cultural context?

我希望看到生活轨迹发生分歧和改变。

I I would like to see the life script diverge and change.