TikTok进课堂：提升还是削弱教学专业？

这里是《开放辩论》。我是约翰·多南。欢迎大家。在这期返校特别节目中，我们将围绕TikTok进入课堂展开辩论。TikTok这款源自中国的社交媒体应用已在全球尤其是青少年群体中产生了巨大影响，美国年轻人也不例外。

This is Open To Debate. I'm John Donvan. Welcome, everybody. In this back to school special episode, we are gonna do a debate about TikTok in the classroom. TikTok, of course, is the social media app that comes from China, and that has made a considerable impression around the world, especially on youth, and that includes American youth.

用户会上传视频——通常是极短的视频——内容包罗万象：从美食、财经到时尚，从惊险特技、愚蠢恶作剧到政治咆哮，有时也会涉及科学、历史或健康等严肃话题。正是最后这类内容中，有些被学校教师认为具有教育价值，比如展示正规化学实验的短视频。越来越多教师正将这些TikTok内容引入课堂，认为它们能补充现有教学内容。但本次辩论要探讨的是：这种做法是否明智？因为TikTok确实存在诸多争议——有人批评它使人分心、容易上瘾，且隐患重重。

People post videos, usually very, very short videos, on an extraordinary range of matters, from food to finance to fashion, from daring feats to dumb pranks to political rants, and sometimes on serious matters related to science or history or health. Now in that last group, there is some stuff that some school teachers in particular have recognized as actually informative, like little videos on chemistry experiments, legitimate chemistry experiments. And more and more teachers are actually importing these TikTok moments into their curricula because they say they add something to what's already happening in the classroom itself. This debate is about whether that's a good idea because in a lot of ways, a lot of people are concerned about TikTok. They say that it's distracting, it's addictive, and in so many ways, it's problematic.

更不用说，或许存在更好（或未必更好）的其他教学方式。这就是本期我们要探讨的核心分歧：TikTok进入课堂——是在提升还是侵蚀教育职业？现在有请认为TikTok能提升教育职业的辩手菲尔·库克。

Not to mention, there are other ways to teach, better ways, maybe, or maybe not. That's the divide we are debating across in this episode around this question. TikTok in the classroom, enhancing or eroding the teaching profession. Let's meet our debaters arguing that TikTok is enhancing the teaching profession. I wanna welcome Phil Cook.

菲尔是教育领域网红兼高中化学教师，同时也是人气TikTok创作者，向数百万网友分享化学实验演示。其中一则视频展示了如何将废食用油转化为生物柴油燃料。

Phil is an education influencer and a high school chemistry teacher. He's also a popular TikTok creator himself, sharing his chemistry demonstrations with millions online. In one of these demonstrations, he converts used cooking oil into biodiesel fuel.

不知道我制作的燃料能不能让我的小噗噗船顺利开动呢？

I wonder if the fuel I made will burn well enough to power my little putt putt boat.

另一则视频里，他用剪草屑造出了一张纸。

In another, a piece of paper from grass clippings.

现在只需要过滤出纤维素然后搅拌均匀就行。

I just need to filter out the cellulose and then blend it smooth.

还有一个视频里他甚至溶解了一个汽水罐，展示里面的塑料内衬。菲尔，这些都太有意思了，很高兴你能来参加节目。

And one where he even dissolves a soda can to show the plastic lining inside. Phil, it's all fascinating stuff, and it's great to have you on the program. Wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me. Thanks.

非常荣幸邀请到你。而今天要论证TikTok在课堂中起反作用、正在侵蚀教育行业的，让我们欢迎阿德里安·丁格尔。阿德里安是中学教师兼教育顾问，同样专注于化学领域，他还是多本获奖化学教材的作者。阿德里安，也欢迎你来到《开放辩论》。

It's great to have you here. And here to argue that TikTok in the classroom is doing the opposite, is eroding the teaching profession, I wanna welcome Adrian Dingle. Adrian is a secondary school teacher and education consultant, again, with a focus on chemistry. He is the author of several award winning chemistry books. Adrian, welcome to you as well to Open to Debate.

谢谢约翰，很荣幸参与。

Thanks, John. Glad to be here.

我想特别说明，鉴于你们两位都是化学老师，这场辩论对我有特殊意义。我祖父是高中生物老师，他的两个孩子——我父亲和姑姑都成了公立学校教师，后来我父亲娶的也是公立学校教师，我的侄辈们同样成为了教师。

I just want to mention this debate is of particular interest to me, given that you were both chemistry teachers. My grandfather on my father's side was a biology high school teacher. And then his two children, my father and my aunt, became public school teachers. And then my father married somebody who is a public school teacher. And my brother and sister offspring, also became teachers.

所以我是家族里唯一的非教师成员。但我对这个职业的文化氛围和生涯体验有所了解。现在我非常期待你们二位能简单说说——阿德里安，从你开始，你的教学经历是？

So I'm the only non teacher in the family. But I have some sense for the profession and the culture and what it's like to have this as a career. So I'm very, very interested in having the two of you tell me just very, very briefly. I'll start with you, Adrian. What's your teaching experience?

到明天开学，这将是我执教的第三十六个年头。

I've got this will be my thirty sixth year coming up starting tomorrow.

哇。

Wow.

在英国十年，美国二十五年，全都从事中学化学教育。这就是我的领域，我的专长所在。主要在私立学校，但也有公立学校的教学经验。所以

Ten years in The UK and twenty five years in The US, all in secondary chemistry education. That's my field. That's that's my specialty. And mostly in the private sector, but some in the public sector as well. So

那可真是不少年头啊。相当长的岁月。

That's a lot of years. A lot of years.

确实很久

It is a lot

的时光。

of years.

没错。

It is.

菲尔，你呢？

Phil, how about you?

我和艾德里安一样，教书有些年头了。虽然远不及他那么久，我也有大约25年的教育从业经历。我在公立和私立学校都教过书，最初在芝加哥公立学校任教，最近则在印第安纳州的一所私立寄宿学校教书。

I've, like Adrian, have been teaching for a while. Not nearly as long, though. I've got about 25 of education under my belt. I've taught in public and private schools. I started out in Chicago public schools, and I most recently have been teaching at a private boarding school in Indiana.

我一直是化学老师，也曾短暂教授过工程学和物理学课程。

I've always been a chemistry teacher. I've also gone in some jaunts teaching engineering and some physics as well.

好的。这意味着您拥有超过半个世纪的教学经验，这为我们此次对话奠定了良好基础。我们想请各位先做开场陈述，在这个环节你们可以不受干扰地阐述支持所持论点的理由。

Alright. So that's more than half a century of teaching experience. So that's that's a good basis for us to be having this conversation. We want to ask each of you to make your opening statements. And that's where you have the space uninterrupted to tell us why you're arguing on the side of this argument that you are.

Phil，请你先开始。你主张TikTok正在提升教学专业水平。现在请说明你的理由。

Phil, you're up first, and you are saying that TikTok is enhancing the teaching profession. Here's your chance, please, to tell us why.

是的。我将从正面论证TikTok对课堂教学的促进作用。但需要明确两点：任何工具的价值取决于其使用方式。TikTok的关键优势在于它能实现微学习。

Yes. I am going to be arguing in the affirmative that TikTok is enhancing to the classroom. A couple things to keep in mind, though. Any tool in and of itself is only as good as how it's implemented. And one of the key strengths of being able to use TikTok is for the purposes of microlearning.

微学习意味着设定具体的小目标并创建与之策略性匹配的内容。如果我们使用TikTok这类工具来辅助达成课程目标，我认为这将提升课堂教学质量和学生的学习效果。另外，短格式视频正成为当代学生的学习方式——他们已习惯接收碎片化信息。利用TikTok等短视频平台不仅能增强我们在课堂内外的沟通能力（学生可自主安排观看时间），更能帮助我们提炼核心知识要点。

So microlearning means that we set specific small goals and create content that is strategically aligned to that. If we're using a tool like TikTok in the classroom to help us meet our course goals, then I think that that's a way that's going to enhance the classroom and the learning of the students within that class. Another thing to consider is that short form video is kind of how our students learn now. And they're used to having little bite sized nuggets of information and using short form platform, short form video platforms like TikTok is a way that enhances our ability as communicators to our students, not only just in the classroom, but also outside the classroom, because you can create the content and they can consume it outside of the time that they might be in front of you. And it also allows us to kind of distill what matters most.

数字多媒体教学研究表明：内容越精炼，教学效果越显著。我们剔除冗余信息，聚焦课程目标，为每个视频设定单一教学目标并据此设计课程内容。我还发现TikTok能促进课堂主动参与——无论是外向型还是内向型学生群体...

And one of the things that we know about digital multimedia learning is the more concise that we can be, the more effective the instruction will be. We cut away all of the fluff and get down to what are the course goals that we need to meet, what's the singular objective that this video can attain, then we design curriculum and the video that goes along with it to meet that particular goal. Another thing that I've seen TikTok actually be beneficial for in the classroom is for allowing more active engagement. Within a classroom, you might have students who are quite extroverted. And you also might have a cohort that's more introverted.

当使用TikTok这类具有明确教学目标的短视频平台时，就创造了公平的创作环境：学生可选择露脸与否，用创新方式完成教师布置的挑战任务，这种自由度是传统教学难以实现的。

Well, when you have a tool like TikTok or any kind of short form video platform with the set goals that help you meet your objectives in the classroom. That is a level playing field where students are able to create on their own. They can show their face. They can not show their face. They can take in a creative approach that they might not have otherwise been able to do to convey the challenge that the teacher has for them.

作为一名化学老师，TikTok对我来说最有用的功能之一就是能浓缩实验演示。科学实验往往需要大量准备工作、昂贵材料和安全操作空间。化学领域尤其如此，网上不乏教师演示危险实验导致学生受伤的案例。这个平台能完全规避这些风险——你可以安全展示实验过程，学生不仅能在教室观看，还能暂停视频，你就此提出互动问题：你们看到了什么？认为发生了什么现象？

And one of the things for me as a chemistry teacher that's been most useful is TikTok allows me to kind of condense demonstrations. I mean, a lot of the stuff that we do in science requires a lot of preparation, costly materials, and a safe space to use in order to conduct those experiments. Chemistry, you don't have to do a lot of searching online to find out that there have been situations where teachers have tried to demonstrate relatively dangerous experiments with bad consequences, students getting hurt. This platform allows you to kind of remove that that consideration where you can do something and and it's completely safe. You can show students something that not only can they see it in the classroom, you can pause the video, you can ask them engaging questions about what are you seeing, what do you think is happening.

传统实验中转瞬即逝的现象可能无法重现，但TikTok允许学生无限次回放。当我们把TikTok视为教学工具时，关键在于如何设计使用方式。

And that's something that might be lost in an experiment where it lasts for a second and then it's gone. You can't back you can't backtrack and rewind it. But with TikTok, you can. Students can replay it as as many times as they need to. And the other thing is that it it when we when we are thinking about TikTok as a utilitarian piece of equipment in our classroom, we have to remember that it's all about how we structure its use.

工具使用不当必然效果不佳。但若善用TikTok这类短视频平台，创设让学生主动参与、激发好奇心的学习情境，就能更深入评估其知识掌握程度，同时为他们提供最适合的知识呈现方式。

If you take a tool and use it poorly, you will get poor results. But if you take a tool like TikTok or any other short form short video platform, and you try and create an experience where students are actively engaged, allowed curiosity to kind of convey their understanding, I think you end up with a deeper understanding of what the student knows and what they may not know, and also give them a means to present their knowledge in a format that best suits them.

好的。菲尔，非常感谢。阿德里安，您持反对意见，认为TikTok正在侵蚀教育行业。请阐述您的观点。

Okay. Phil, thank you very much. And Adrian, you disagree. You believe TikTok is eroding the teaching profession. Here, please, is your chance to tell us why.

我将提出六个论点支撑这一立场。首先是严肃性的缺失——没人会认为TikTok等社交平台能促进学术思想的深度探讨，其内容浅薄化是严重问题。正如约翰开场所言，这类平台往往与庄重得体背道而驰。

Okay. Well, I'd like to present, six quick arguments, which back up that position. The first one I'm really concerned about is the lack of gravitas. I don't suppose that anyone is arguing that TikTok or indeed any social media channel is providing the conditions and the environment that will lead to serious discussion of intellectual ideas, but the fact that they are so shallow, I think, is a real problem. Social media in general, TikTok as well, as you mentioned, John, at the beginning, off often offers the opposite of dignity and decorum.

当今课堂正与学生就这一问题艰难博弈。任何强化'网红掌握未来钥匙'认知的事物都非良策。我们需要重塑课堂严肃性的教学方法，而TikTok显然不符。其次，其内容扭曲学科本质——常有学生声称热爱化学或科学，实则只是喜欢《科学小子比尔》的电视演示或家庭自制红卷心菜酸碱指示剂。

And in class modern classrooms with today's students, we are really struggling with that. And I think that anything which somehow backs up the idea that many kids have that, influencers hold the keys to their futures is not really a good thing. We need methodologies that bring seriousness back into the classroom, and I don't think TikTok is that kind of thing. Secondly, they the content offers misleading ideas regarding what subjects really are. Over the years, I've encountered numerous instances where children express their love of chemistry or science, but what they're really saying is, I love watching Bill Nye, the Science Guy's demonstration on late night talk shows, or maybe I like to create red cabbage indicators in homeschool environments.

家长常误将这种兴趣等同于学术能力。当真正需要运用代数知识、保持课堂纪律时，问题就暴露无遗。感官刺激与严肃学习截然不同，我们必须重申学术的庄重本质。

And the parents will often say things like, well, of course, they've always enjoyed and excelled in science. And in fact, they've got no idea what's gonna happen when they come into the classroom. And when I start asking to do things with algebra and I ask them to sit down and be quiet and listen to me, these are problems. And I think titillation and learning are two very, very different things. And we've got to get back to the idea that academic things are serious.

它们很少有趣，至少不符合这个词的常规意义。我认为，当我们真正理解课堂上的乐趣最终源于智力追求的满足，并从严谨的角度认识到这一点时，这对我们大有裨益。而TikTok有可能侵蚀这种理解，因为孩子们在其他领域接触它的方式。第三点是逃避挣扎。所有有意义、持久、深入的学习都来自对材料的长期严谨投入。

They're seldom fun or at least not in the conventional sense of the word. And I think, you know, when we really understand that fun in the classroom is ultimately found in the satisfaction of intellectual pursuit and understanding that from a rigorous point of view, I think that helps us a lot. And I think TikTok has the potential to erode some of that because of the ways that the kids are, you know, exposed to it in other areas. Number three is avoiding the struggle. All meaningful, lasting, deep learning only comes from long term rigorous engagement with the material.

挣扎是学习发生的地方。如果有人过滤掉这些，让观看者避免挣扎，其他人提炼了那些信息，那么与材料的互动可能会非常肤浅，甚至被简化为极其无益的程度。第四点是碎片化。我的意思是，就像沉浸于材料中一样，将材料碎片化为简短片段给孩子们零碎的信息，但无法提供接近全面覆盖的内容。这种碎片化可能让孩子们陷入邓宁-克鲁格效应，三十秒的乐趣或兴趣可能让他们错误地认为自己已经理解了一个话题。

The struggle is where the learning happens. And if somebody has filtered that out to allow the watcher to avoid the struggle, somebody else has distilled that information, that involvement with the material, I think, can be very superficial and often, reduced to a point that is incredibly unhelpful. Fourth thing is fragmentation. And what I mean by that is, you know, just like being immersed in the material, fragmentation of the material into small sound bites gives the kids snippets of information, but it doesn't give them anything that approaches comprehensive coverage. And I think the fragmentation has the potential to get kids into a Dunning Kruger effect where they thirty seconds of fun or thirty seconds of interest gives them, perhaps the idea inappropriately that they are comfortable about a topic and they understand it.

而实际情况远比这复杂得多。第五点是，当然，TikTok上有很多质量低劣的内容。它们并非由该领域的专家制作，而是充斥着闪光和爆炸等吸引眼球的内容，与我们的工作毫无关系。第六点也是最后一点，是经典的干扰因素——参与度。

And it's way, way, way more, complex than that. Fifth one is, on TikTok, of course, present company accepted. There's a lot of very poor material there. It's not produced by people who are experts in the field, and it's all to do with flashes and bangs and other eye catching content, which really isn't anything to do with what we're doing. Sixth and final thing is the classic red herring of of engagement.

参与度始终、始终、始终是学生的责任。始终如此。我认为任何不当地将责任从学生转移到教师身上，让教师成为表演者或教育娱乐的提供者，对教育都是非常有害的。

Engagement is always, always, always the responsibility of the student. Always. And I think any inappropriate shift away from that and towards the teacher being a performer or a a purveyor of edutainment is a very damaging thing for education.

非常感谢，阿德里安。好的，我们已经听取了两位的发言。我们将稍作休息，回来后继续讨论。

Thank you very much, Adrian. Okay. Well, we've heard from both of you. We're gonna take a break. And when we come back, we are going to discuss.

我是约翰·多南，这里是《开放辩论》，我们马上回来。欢迎回到《开放辩论》。我们的辩手是教育影响者兼高中化学教师菲尔·库克，以及中学教师兼教育顾问阿德里安·丁格尔。我们辩论的问题正值新学年开始之际：TikTok进入课堂，是提升还是侵蚀教学职业？

I'm John Donvan. This is Open to Debate, and we'll be right back. Welcome back to open to debate. Our debaters are Phil Cook, education influencer and high school chemistry teacher, and Adrian Dingle, secondary school teacher and education consultant. The question we're debating just in time for the the start of the school year is TikTok in the classroom, enhancing or eroding the teaching profession.

现在，我想请你们各自用三十秒告诉我，你们认为对手的论点是什么。保罗，你先来，你听到阿德里安对TikTok进入课堂提出了哪些批评？

Now I wanna ask each of you to take thirty seconds to tell me what you think your opponent is actually arguing. Paul, you're up first. What did you hear Adrian say as a critique of TikTok in the classroom?

所以我尽力做到最好，首先，我和Adrian彼此认识。我们之前共事过。因此他所言并不令我意外。我听他说的是，TikTok上产出的内容从根本上缺乏严肃性。实际上，即使你非常专注且深思熟虑地制作内容，它仍然显得相当肤浅。

So I did my best to take well, first of all, Adrian and I know each other. We've worked together before. And so it wasn't surprising what I heard. What I heard him say was that there's fundamentally a lack of gravitas in the content that's produced on TikTok. And and actually, even when you're very focused and thoughtful about it, it still comes across as pretty shallow.

Adrian，你呢？你从Phil那里听到了什么？

Adrian, how about you? What did you hear from from Phil?

我认为他的意思是，就像教师曾在课堂上使用过的每一种工具，如果使用不当都会出问题。这放之四海皆准，你知道，就算回到石板和粉笔时代也一样。明白吗？有时用石板不合适，有时用白板也不合适，真正的关键在于——专业能力始终掌握在课堂上的教师手中。

I think that he said that like, every single tool that any teacher has ever had in the classroom, its incorrect implementation is gonna be problematic. And that's true of it doesn't matter, you know, if we go back to, you know, slates and chalk. You know? Sometimes that's inappropriate. Sometimes it's inappropriate to use the whiteboard, and it really depends the expertise is always gonna lie in the hands of the of the person in the classroom.

我听到你们各自的观点，Phil提到孩子们——我觉得很有趣——已习惯这种短视频形式。这是他们的语言，是他们现在的词汇表。这也是在课外接触他们的方式，因为他们都在刷TikTok。他还说这是种高度简洁、高效传递信息的方式。

What I heard, each of you say, I I heard Phil say that kids, that I found interesting kids are used to this short form. It's their language. It's their vocabulary now. And it's also a way to reach them when they are not in the classroom because they're on TikTok. He also says it's a way to be very, very concise, very efficient with information.

更有趣的是，他说对于内向的孩子，创作内容也是他们参与的方式。另一个我没想到的观点是，Phil你提出这些实验可能很危险。我猜你是说可能在课堂上搞砸？不如先在视频里演练，确保安全。而Adrian的观点是课堂需要保持庄重感与严肃性。

And in an interesting way, he said for kids who are less extroverted, creating content is also a way for them to be engaged. And another point I did not expect to hear, Phil, you made the argument that these experiments can be dangerous. And I guess you're saying blow up in the classroom. Can You get it worked out on a video first and everybody's safe. And then I'm hearing from Adrian this idea that the classroom needs to be dignified and have a sense of gravitas.

TikTok某些特质恰恰与此相悖，让它显得轻浮。Phil你在复述Adrian观点时也提到：存在一种误导性，让人以为'看完视频就等于掌握了这门学科'，产生全面理解的错觉，而实际上可能只触及皮毛。

And there's just something about TikTok that fights against that, that makes it unserious. And also and you captured this, think, Phil, in your recitation of what you heard Adrian say, there's something misleading about giving the idea that, okay, I've watched this video. Now I know the subject. And and I've got it comprehensively. And people may think that they understand what it is when they only know a tiny, tiny piece of it.

最后你强调课堂是严肃的场所，不必总是有趣，娱乐并非教师的职责。我想以此为讨论起点。Phil，该你发言了。

And finally, kind of here you're making an argument that the classroom is a serious place. It's not always going to be fun. That entertainment is not the teacher's role. And I want to take that as our starting point. Back to you, Phil.

毫无疑问，你的视频确实如此。它们的特点之一就是具有娱乐性。你如何看待Adrian的批评，即娱乐性不属于教师使命的一部分？

There's no question that your videos are. One of the things they are is entertaining. How do you feel about Adrian's critique that entertainment is not part of the mission of a teacher?

在这一点上我并不完全反对他，因为我并非像宫廷小丑那样走进教室娱乐大家，让他们因为我的授课方式而全神贯注。但我的职责是清晰地传达我希望学生离开教室时掌握的内容。我期望他们能够深入解释这些知识。如果我提问，他们应该能够回答。如果需要他们集中注意力，他们也应该能做到。

I don't disagree with him completely on that on that point because I'm not there as like a court jester to come into class and entertain everyone and have them be riveted to their seats because of the way that I might be presenting a piece of material. But what I am charged with is clearly communicating the content that I expect them to know by the time they leave my classroom. I expect them to be able to explain it deeply. If that's a question that I ask them, they should be able to answer it. If I need them to hold if I need them to focus and hold their attention, they should be able to do that.

我的观点是，TikTok在这方面可以起到很好的辅助作用。因为我可以通过提前精心准备的结构化、聚焦性内容，帮助学生在进入教室前就初步了解主题。我可以明确地说，通过我在社交媒体上创作的内容，它激发了学生了解更多的好奇心。我有意告诉学生，我花了多少时间思考措辞、呈现方式，并将其精简以确保内容清晰，即使他们看到的只是25到38秒的成品视频。

My argument is that TikTok can be very enhancing in that regard. Because I can use structured, focused work that I do preeminently ahead of time to help students kind of get a little bit of the ball rolling before they even come to the classroom. And one of the things that I can say unequivocally that happens through the content I've created on social media is that it generates a curiosity to know more. And I'm very deliberate about telling students how much time it takes me to think about the words I say, to think about how I present the material, to cut it down into a concise manner so that there's no illusions about what the process is behind the scenes even though they're watching a polished product that lasts twenty five to thirty eight seconds.

Adrian，我觉得Phil回答中提到激发好奇心这一点很有意思，这总是件好事。

Adrian, I I I found interesting the the notion in in in Phil's answer that it's a spur to curiosity and that that's always a good thing.

我不认为这是坏事。但问题在于，教学的本质是什么？我的工作是触及每个孩子吗？我认为这是对教学的误解，完全错误且历来如此。总会有一些孩子不喜欢化学。

I don't think it's a bad thing. All I would say is the question becomes, you know, what is teaching? Is it my job to reach every child? I think that's a myth about teaching, which is totally incorrect and always has been. There will be some kids who don't like chemistry.

总会有一些孩子离开时只掌握有限的知识，这没关系。那种认为我们必须触及所有人且这至关重要的想法只是个神话，历来如此。人们常说我们需要有见识的选民或受过教育的选民来做决定。对此我持相当悲观的看法。

There will be some kids who leave with very limited knowledge, and that's okay. It's not that you know, the idea that we're gonna reach everybody and it's really important to reach everybody is just it's a myth. Always has been. And I think, you know, people will often say, well, we need an informed electorate, or we need an educated electorate so they can make decisions. And I'm afraid I have a very cynical view about that.

我认为大多数孩子长大后，会根据钱包、父母或牧师的指示投票。那种认为我们拥有了解科学的知情选民的想法极其可笑。大量证据表明这并非事实且行不通。所以我不介意无法触及部分学生。明白吗？

I think most kids ultimately will grow up, and vote with their pocketbook or what their parents tell them or what their pastor tells them. And I think this idea that we have an informed electorate that's gonna vote knowing the science is absolutely hilarious. And I think there's a lot of proof to suggest that that isn't true, and it isn't working. So I'm okay with not reaching some of those kids. You know?

事情就是这样。不是每个人都会喜欢化学，这没关系。

That's just the way it is. Not everybody's gonna like chemistry, and that's okay.

好吧，我们其实不是在争论教师是否有责任触及所有孩子的问题，但我觉得这是个有趣的旁支。我想稍微探讨一下，因为菲尔，你支持使用TikTok这类技术的论点是它能吸引尽可能多的孩子。所以让我们稍微绕个弯，谈谈艾德里安提出的这个哲学性问题。

Well, we're so we're not actually debating the question of whether it's a teacher's role to reach all the kids, but I think this is an interesting side path. I'd like to go down a little bit because Phil, your argument for TikTok for using this technology is to engage as many kids as possible. So let's take a little side trip on the sort of philosophical issue that Adrian has raised.

对我来说，和艾德里安非常相似，我深知无法以同样的方式触及每个孩子。作为教师，我的目标始终是：我能把学生带到多远？能让他们比原来懂得多少？对某些孩子来说，他们在我的课堂上可能获得巨大的成长；而对另一些孩子，进步可能小得多。

For me, I realize very much like Adrian, that you're not gonna be able to reach every kid the same way. My goal as a teacher has always been how far can I bring a student up? How far can I make them more knowledgeable than where they were before? For some kids that might be quite a large amount that they're able to grow as a result of being a member of my class. Other times, it's much smaller.

当我没能触及某些孩子时，这确实令人沮丧——因为我很喜欢看到他们因某件事而兴奋的表情。说实话，很多学生走进教室时，可能带着他们父母当年离开化学课堂时的幻灭感。他们没觉得化学有多有趣。虽然我们不必再次取悦他们，但你可以帮助他们理解，这门学科真的可以像魔法一样神奇，是认识周围世界的绝佳途径。

And it's definitely frustrating when you don't reach kids for me personally, because I love seeing the look on their face when they get excited about something. Because honestly, a lot of students come into the classroom, probably a lot of the way that their parents may have left a chemistry classroom disenchanted. They didn't have a lot of fun. And not that we have to entertain them again, but the idea that you can help them understand that this can be really, really just like magical almost. This can be a great way to kind of learn how the world works around you.

我通常这样看待：无论你在我的课堂上成长多少，都很棒。我会推动你，用高标准要求你。之后的选择权在你手中。学生在课堂上的成长永远取决于自己。

And the way that I tend to look at it is, okay, however much you grow in my class, that's great. I'll push you. I'll hold you to high standards. What you do afterwards is up to you. The way that you grow in a class is always up to the student.

保持投入、全力以赴始终是学生的责任。在这方面，教师能做的有限。我想艾德里安应该会同意这点。

It's always the responsibility of the student to stay engaged, to do their best. A teacher can only do so much in that regard. I think that's probably something that Adrian would agree with.

完全正确。我认为每个离开我教室的孩子都有所成长——尽管可能是以他们意想不到的方式，比如不得不忍受他们未必喜欢的事物，需要通过自律来完成。所以我的观点可能是：这些孩子中有一半是否真正理解化学并不那么重要，这对他们的人生其实无足轻重。

Absolutely. Kids I think every kid that leaves my classroom has grown. It's possible that they may have grown the way they weren't expecting, I e, that they had to put up with something that they didn't necessarily enjoy, and it was something that they had to be disciplined in order to do. So my argument would probably be, it's really not that important that, you know, half of these kids understand the chemistry. That really isn't gonna matter to them.

或许更重要的是，他们要学会坐下来、保持安静、倾听专家意见，并真正投入其中——即使这种方式可能不符合他们的意愿或不够有趣。我认为这本身就是一种成长。

What might be more important is they learn to sit down, shut up, and listen to an expert, and actually, you know, engage in a way that they might not want to and that isn't entertaining. So I think that's a form of growth in itself.

阿德里安未提及的对TikTok的批评是：研究以及我们普遍感受到的直观印象表明，TikTok正在对儿童的注意力持续时间造成灾难性影响。它令人上瘾。有些人会说，在理想状态下，年幼儿童和青少年不应把时间花在盯着手机上。他们使用手机的时间越长，受到的伤害就越大。而你提到的内容创作确实旨在吸引用户——在这个问题上你是正确的。

One critique that Adrian did not bring up about TikTok is the research and also this anecdotal sense we all have that TikTok is forming terrible has is having a terrible impact on attention spans of kids. And that it's addictive. That it's I I that some folks would say in an ideal world, young children and teenagers are not spending their time staring at a phone. And the more time they're on a phone, the more harm is done to them. And you're right in that world where you are creating content that is meant to be appealing.

那么你能回应这个批评吗？我不想再转问阿德里安，这是否也是他对课堂上使用TikTok的担忧之一。

So can you take on that critique? I I don't want to bring it back to Adrian and ask if that's also part of his his concern about TikTok in the classroom.

当然。毫无疑问，每天长时间盯着屏幕是有害的。许多学生——尤其是那些在新冠疫情爆发时正处于初中阶段的高中生——比前几代人经历了更多的屏幕时间，我们现在正目睹其影响。但作为教育者，我们可以更审慎。

Sure. There's no doubt that looking at a screen for hours and hours every day is detrimental. There's no doubt that the experience of many students, especially high school age students who maybe were in middle school when COVID was underway, have had a lot more screen time than what previous generations have had prior to them. And we're seeing the effects of that now. But we can be thoughtful as educators.

我们可以精心设计学生的学习环境。若允许手机进入课堂（我个人主张），短视频的使用应当仅限于最相关的教学时刻——为特定目的服务，用于强化教案中的某个环节，之后让学生收起手机，或是将视频投屏供全班分析讨论。这绝非放任学生进教室就打开那些被设计成最大化占用用户注意力的应用。

We can be deliberate as educators in the way that we construct the learning environment that our students are in. We can be deliberate in terms of if we're gonna have phones or even allow phones in the classroom, I would argue that the purpose of a short form video would be just for that moment in time where it's most relevant. It's a time where you use it for a deliberate purpose. You use it to enhance a specific aspect of your lesson plan, and then you have kids put the phone away or you show that video on the large screen for the entire class to critique and break down and talk about. This is not a situation where kids come into class, they open up their phones, they open their apps, which are being designed by app companies to keep their eyeballs on the app for as much time as possible.

这绝非我们要创建的学习环境——至少不是我在实践的教学模式。

This is not a situation where that's the learning environment that we're creating, at least not that I'm creating.

阿德里安，考虑到你认为TikTok根本不该进入课堂，我想反问你：你是否承认，通过菲尔所说的那些约束措施（即存在正确与错误的使用方式），可以在一定程度上减轻其有害影响？

Adrian, I think the question I would take back to you from that, knowing that you don't think TikTok has a place in the classroom period, would you concede that its deleterious effects could be somewhat ameliorated by the kinds of restraints that, that Phil is talking about, that there are ways to do it right and ways to do it wrong?

哦，绝对是这样。我的意思是，正确使用工具这一点本就是理所当然的。我确切地知道菲尔并不是在建议孩子们需要在上课时不停地盯着手机看。那不是他所说的意思。我认为任何在课堂上使用TikTok的人也不会那样做。

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's just that's such a given in terms of using tools correctly. I I know for a fact that Phil isn't suggesting that kids need to be, you know, just staring into their phones incessantly during a class. That's that's not what he's talking about. I don't think anybody who's using TikTok in the classroom is doing that either.

不过，让我担忧的是我们之前提到的严肃性问题。我是说，如果你担心孩子们的注意力持续时间被侵蚀，现在一切都以三十秒的片段呈现，恐怕这匹马在很多很多年前就已经脱缰了。2025年、2026年在课堂上使用TikTok对此不会有任何改变。我担心的是，他们与TikTok的关联是那些当前的网红以及这些孩子们一直在观看的垃圾内容。我认为青少年很难区分他们24/7消费的TikTok内容。

What worries me, though, is what we said earlier on about the gravitas. I mean, if you're if you're concerned about kids' attention spans being eroded and now everything coming in thirty second, you know, snippets, I'm afraid that horse bolted many, many, many years ago. TikTok in the classroom in twenty twenty five, twenty six isn't making any difference to that. What I'm concerned about is that their association with TikTok is whoever the current influencers are and the kind of garbage material that these these kids are watching all the time. And I think it's really difficult for an adolescent to make the distinction between the TikTok they're consuming twenty four seven.

我知道这不是字面意思，但差不多是这样。然后TikTok被引入课堂。我认为这是一个非常微妙的变化，对孩子们来说很难理解。

I know that's not literal, but it's something like that. And then TikTok being introduced in the classroom. I think that's a very subtle change and a very difficult thing for kids, to grasp.

关于那里可能出问题的地方，你能再多说一点吗？考虑到这种动态，你认为会出现什么问题？

A little bit more on what can go wrong there. What are you saying can go wrong given that dynamic?

在课堂上？是的。哦，我认为这会导致一种缺乏严肃性的氛围。孩子们将TikTok与一种通常不是我们在课堂上试图达到的内容消费类型联系在一起。

In the classroom? Yeah. Oh, I think there's a just a lack of seriousness. I think the kids associate TikTok with a type of consumption of material that generally isn't the type of consumption that we're trying to get to in class.

那么，你能更深入地谈谈缺乏严肃性是什么感觉或看起来是什么样子，以及它在课堂上的影响是什么吗？如果你能再详细一点

So go a little deeper on what you what's what are the what do you what does a lack of seriousness feel like or look like, and and what is the impact in the classroom? If you could be a little bit more

当然。哦，我认为

Sure. Oh, well, I think

关于那方面的物理特性。

physical about that.

是的。我认为孩子们觉得这无关紧要，他们不认为这很重要。在下一件事到来之前，这不过是他们可以轻易忽略的东西。我想说的是，如果你想传达一个严肃的观点，让学习发生，那么只有当学习者完全沉浸于材料中时，学习才会发生，而且需要通过多种方式不断重复、重复、再重复。

Yeah. I think the kids think it's trivial, and they don't think it's important. And it's something to wash over them before the next thing comes along. And I think if you're trying to have, a serious point made where there's some learning, it goes back to what I was saying. The learning only happens when there's absolute immersion in the material, and that needs to be repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated in many different ways.

我认为这是一种可以随意丢弃的东西——我知道我们不是在谈论Snapchat，但Snapchat的理念就是存在那么短暂的一瞬间，然后就消失了。我认为TikTok也有这种潜在的特性。

And I think it's a throwaway sort of I know we're not talking about Snapchat, but the idea that Snapchat is there for, you know, what what whatever, you know, tiny period of time it is, and it's gone. And I think there is the potential for that with TikTok as well.

菲尔？关于缺乏严肃性的问题，我想我要谈谈这一点。因为如果你打开TikTok应用，毫无目的地滑动浏览——这正是应用希望你做的——你会遇到艾德里安所讨论的那种情况：一片内容海洋，在许多方面毫无意义，除了给你带来短暂的多巴胺刺激，让你滑动到下一个视频，保持你在应用上的参与度，直到‘哦，拜托，给我一个至少有点意思的视频吧’。观察一个TikTok用户，你可能会看到他们滑动浏览10到15个视频，才真正找到一个让他们停留的内容。TikTok商业模式的一部分就是以这种方式保持用户的参与度。

Phil? In in terms in terms of the I'm gonna I think I'm gonna address the lack of seriousness because there is a flood of content that just if you go on the TikTok app and you just scroll without any kind of direction, which is really what the app wants you to do, you will encounter exactly what Adrian is discussing. This ocean of content that is mindless in many ways, that is ineffective in terms of giving you anything other than a momentary hit of dopamine to kind of get you to scroll to the next video to keep you engaged on the app until, oh, come on, give me a video, please, that at least shows me something interesting. You know, if you look at a user using TikTok, you might see them scrolling for 10 to 15 videos before they actually find one where they sit on it. And part of the business model of TikTok is keeping users engaged in that manner.

另一部分则是试图向他们推送他们真正会观看的内容。我主张的不是无休止的滑动，而是说，你可以拿化学中的一个概念为例。假设你想让学生制作一个视频，一个关于勒夏特列原理的视频——这是化学中一个相当复杂的平衡概念，解释起来并不容易。如果你只是让学生制作一个60秒以内的视频，你会得到你要求的东西。

Part of it is also trying to serve them the content where they actually do watch it. And what I'm arguing for is not incessant scrolling, but I'm saying that and you can take a concept in chemistry. Say, say you want to have a student create a video, and you wanna have a student create a video that's under sixty seconds. And you want it on Le Chatelier's principle, this equilibrium idea in chemistry that's actually pretty complicated to explain. If you ask a student to create a video and you say, okay, create a video, you're going to get exactly what you ask for.

可能是一堆垃圾。但如果你说，‘好的，我需要你先为你的想法制作一个故事板，然后我要一个配套的脚本，我要先看看’，这样他们就能经历与视频创作相关的严谨过程。这样，他们就不再只是被动地消费内容，而是积极参与其中。

Probably garbage. But if you say, okay, I want I want to have a storyboard of your idea. Then I want I have a script that's gonna go along with it. And I wanna look at it first so that they can go through this this rigor that goes along with the actual video creation. So instead of just being a consumer passively of the content, they're actively engaging.

这就是我在课堂上使用TikTok的方式，作为一个积极的工具，远超过作为消费者导向的内容——这可能是大多数人使用TikTok的方式：他们消费而非生产。而当他们生产内容时，我同意艾德里安的观点，他们生产的内容质量很可能不高。

And that's really how I have used TikTok in my classroom as an active piece, much more than a consumer's focused piece of of content, which is probably how most people deal with TikTok. They consume rather than than produce. And when they are producing, I agree with Adrian, they're probably not producing stuff that's of very high quality.

菲尔，你在学生中使用TikTok的目标是什么？我知道你在平台上有大量观众，但在教室里，你是希望学生观看你的一些视频和其他化学相关视频吗？还是说这是他们课余时间自发进行的？

Phil, is your is your goal with TikTok among your students? I know that you have a vast audience out there, but among your students in the classroom to look at some of your videos and other chemistry related videos in the classroom? Or is this to happen on their own time?

那么我来告诉你我在课堂上使用TikTok的几种方式。如果我发现一个不是我制作的视频，但内容有趣且符合课程目标，我会在课堂上展示。找到相关、及时且合适的内容片段，我将其作为讨论的引子。此外，我也会利用TikTok这类短视频形式来传达实验步骤。

So the I'll tell you the only ways that I've used TikTok in my classroom. I either use if I find a video that is not mine, but it's something that I think is interesting and meets the course goals, I'll show it in class. You find a piece of content that is relevant and timely and it's appropriate. And I use it as a way to kick off a discussion. I can also use TikTok as a way to kind of or short form video formats as a way to convey lab procedures.

让学生直观地看到他们将在实验室进行的操作，这有助于提升他们在实验室的效率。对我来说，如何让学生进入实验室后明确操作步骤、确保安全始终是个难题。社交媒体上的短视频在这方面实际上能发挥很大价值——尽管这类内容通常不会在TikTok上走红。另一个用途是将其作为形成性评估工具：学生完成课程学习后，需要以教师视角重新解释所学内容。

Getting kids to kind of visually see what they're gonna be doing in the lab, which helps make their time in the lab more efficient. And for me, that's always been an issue, getting kids in the lab, knowing what to do, knowing how to be safe doing it. Social media is like short form videos can actually serve quite a valuable purpose in that regard. But that's not the kind of content that's gonna go viral on TikTok. The other piece that I use TikTok for is for actual kind of a content creation piece as a formative assessment of sorts where students have gone through a course, they've learned the content that I've attempted to teach them to the best of my ability.

现在我要求他们自主消化知识，并站在教师立场进行讲解。我会给他们...

And now I want them to kind of take it on their own and explain it as if they had to be the teacher in their shoes. And I give them

所以他们的成绩除了考试表现外，还包括制作TikTok视频的作业成果？这部分会纳入最终评分？

So their grade is in addition to whatever they might do on an exam. Their grade is partially comprised of their of their the work they do on putting together a video, a TikTok video?

是的。不，这不是常规的评估方式。

Yes. No. This is not a this is not a common type of assessment.

好的。我想重点讨论这点——TikTok创作竟然成为化学课评分的一部分。各位怎么看？公平地说，菲尔的意思是，优秀的视频制作需要真正掌握概念、理解概念并能够运用概念。

Okay. I I wanna take that over. TikTok creation is actually part of a chemistry grade. What do you think of that? And I and and being fair to what Phil's saying, is he saying that a well done video requires actually grasping the concepts, understanding the concepts, and being able to work with the concepts.

我认为这是事实，但我对实际产出的内容有所疑虑。我猜测——当然可能完全错误，也乐于被纠正——那些录音、剪辑和反复调整的过程，比如一个本可以简单解释的概念，可能需要孩子花三四天来制作一个视频。我不确定。或许我的看法，我必须承认某种程度上源于无知，毕竟从未亲身体验过，觉得这种方式效率极低，明明有其他更简单的方法可以达到相同目的。我是说，

I think that's true, but I wonder about the content that actually comes out. I suspect, and I could well be wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected, that, you know, the recording and the editing and the messing around with it, you know, something that can be explained relatively easily might take a kid three or four days to put together a video. I don't know. Maybe I I my my perception, which I I must admit is sort of based in ignorance, somewhat having never done it, is that that would be an extraordinarily inefficient way to produce something or to get to a point which can be very simply reached in a different manner. I mean, it

这确实非常耗时。艾德里安说得对，需要投入大量时间。而且你必须愿意为这个目标付出时间。这能让我真正了解学生深度思考的能力。

absolutely does take a lot of time. Adrian's right. It takes a lot of time. And it has to be time that you're willing to give to that goal. It helps me to really know the ability of a student to kind of think deeply.

重点不在于成品，因为我不认为成品会让人惊叹'天哪，这具有突破性'，毕竟

And it's not the end product because I don't think the end product would be something where someone would be like, oh my gosh, this is groundbreaking because

这很有意思。我们都认同这种方式相对耗时极多，可能意味着——再次声明，如果我错了请指正——你们能涵盖的教学内容会减少。这是个与之完全独立的长期争议问题。我不希望孩子们因为学习视频剪辑而错过知识内容，这对我来说绝对不可接受。

This is really interesting. Us agreeing that this takes an enormous amount of time relatively, means probably and again, correct me if I'm wrong that the amount of content you're going to be able to cover is gonna be reduced. Now that's a completely separate side issue, which has been going on for decades as well. And I don't want kids to miss out on content because they're make they're learning how to edit video. That's a big no no for me.

如果教学内容被牺牲，那我们就有大麻烦了。

If content goes away, then I think we're in big trouble.

你们是否有任何研究或数据支持你们的观点，证明将TikTok融入学习过程是积极还是消极的？还是说现在下结论为时过早？

Do either of you have any studies you can refer to or data that you're aware of that support your position, that learning with with an integration of TikTok and the learning process is a positive or a negative? Or is it too early for that?

可以找到一些研究案例，比如在本科护理专业中，他们整合了TikTok视频，每个视频只阐释一个概念，并设置了与视频内容相关的评估。从学生——这些护理专业本科生的反馈来看，绝大多数认为这种方式很有帮助，他们感到参与度更高了。

You'll find some examples of studies where, like in an undergraduate program for nursing, they integrated TikTok videos with a singular goal of each video would would produce one concept. And then they had assessments tied into the content that the user, the viewer had seen on TikTok. And this is again, just coming from the student side, the undergraduate nursing students. They said with a high margin that it was helpful. They found themselves more engaged.

他们认为这是学习概念的一种好方法。他们喜欢可以回看的功能。这和其他多媒体形式很像，对吧？多媒体之所以有帮助，是因为当信息以多种形式呈现时，我们学得更好。所以目前我所见的研究显示它有益处，这并不让我惊讶。

They thought it was a good way to kind of learn a concept. They liked that they could go back and view it again. I mean, it's a lot like any other multimedia, right? Multimedia helps us because we learn better when information is presented in multiple modalities. So I'm not surprised that the research, at least right now that I've seen, shows that it's beneficial.

但再次强调，你得把这些当作轶事来看，因为这是来自学生的视角。

But again, you gotta take it anecdotally because it's from the student's perspective.

艾德里安，你有反驳的数据或研究吗？

Adrian, do you have countering data or studies?

我很高兴你用了这个词。社会科学数据和我在科学领域的数据，在我看来是两回事。但回答你的问题，约翰，答案是我没有任何相关数据。

What what I I'm glad you used that word. Social science data and my data in the science world are two very different things in my opinion. But the answer your question, John the answer to your question is I do not have any.

好的。我们要稍作休息，回来后将继续讨论。还会有其他声音加入对话。我是约翰·唐文，这里是《公开辩论》，我们马上回来。

Okay. We're, we're gonna take a break, and when we come back, we're gonna continue our conversation. We're gonna have some additional voices join the conversation. I'm John Donvan. This is open to debate, and we'll be right back.

欢迎回到《公开辩论》，我们正在探讨的问题是：TikTok进课堂，还是侵蚀教师职业？这是我们的返校特别节目。我是约翰·唐文。我们的辩手是教育网红兼高中化学老师菲尔·库克，以及中学教师兼教育顾问艾德里安·丁格尔。现在我们将引入其他观点。

Welcome back to Open To Debate, where we're taking on the question TikTok in the classroom, or eroding the teaching profession. We're doing this as a back to school special. I'm John Donvan. Our debaters are Phil Cook, who is an education influencer and high school chemistry teacher, and Adrian Dingle, who is a secondary school teacher and an education consultant. Now we're going bring in some other voices.

一直关注这场讨论的还有常年思考和撰写相关议题的领域专家。首先欢迎梅尔夫·拉帕斯，常识媒体教育推广与参与副总裁。他主导全国性项目，帮助学校、家庭和社区应对我们讨论的技术问题，同时创建更安全、更具影响力的学习环境。梅尔夫，欢迎来到《公开辩论》，请提出你的问题。

People have been listening to the conversation and who are subject matter experts who think and write about these topics themselves all of the time. And first, I want to welcome Melv Lapas, who is the Vice President of Outreach and Engagement at Common Sense Media for Education. There he leads nationwide efforts to help schools and families and communities navigate what we're talking about technology and also creating safer learning environments that are more impactful. So Merv, welcome to Open To Debate. And please come in with your question.

因此毫无疑问，当视频教学与强有力的教学法相结合时，对学习确实有极大的帮助。但TikTok是否有可能助长一种追求短平快、高度精致化学习体验的文化？这种即时满足的模式虽然当下吸引人，却可能损害深度学习、基础理解能力和长期技能发展。我特别关注的是，这种趋势如何加剧了人们以这种方式创造、学习和参与的压力，以及这将如何影响孩子们应对现实生活的能力。

So there's no doubt that video in the classroom when used with strong pedagogical integration is really incredibly helpful for learning. Does TikTok risk amplifying a culture of this short, fast and highly polished learning experience really kind of appealing in the moment, but potentially detrimental to the deep learning, foundational understanding, and long term skill development? And I'm particularly interested in, like, how does this even increase the pressure to create, learn and engage in this way, and how does that impact how kids will navigate real life?

Merv，我从你的问题中听出了一些担忧。我的理解对吗？

Merv, I hear in your question some sense that you have concerns. Am I right about that?

我担心的是，孩子们现在不仅在教室里，课外时间也大量接触这些平台——考虑到他们通过媒体和技术多任务处理的时间，每天可能长达十八小时——我们正在不断使这种接触常态化和加剧化。特别是像TikTok这样的平台，其算法偏见真的会引导用户走向特定方向。

I'm concerned that exposing our kids now in the classroom where they're already spending so much time outside of the classroom and upwards, you know, up to eighteen hours a day when you think about how they multitask through media and technology, we're just continuing to normalize and exacerbate their exposure to these platforms. And a platform especially like TikTok where that algorithmic bias can really lead you.

好的。那我们首先听听Adrian的看法，我想他某种程度上认同你的观点。Adrian，你对Murph的问题有何回应？

Yeah. Alright. Let's let's take that first to Adrian who I I think is somewhat in consonance with your point of view on that. But Adrian, what's your response to Murph's question?

是的。我认为这要回归到沉浸式学习的本质，以及我之前提到的必须经历挣扎的过程。理解任何事物的唯一途径就是先经历失败。你需要动手实践，在犯错中理解问题，修正想法，然后不断反复这个过程。而短视频形式，无论是TikTok还是其他平台，大多数情况下都无法提供这种体验。

Yeah. I I think it goes back to immersion and the fact that you have to have the struggle that I referred to earlier on. I mean, the only way you can understand anything is by failing at it first. So you've got to get in, get hands dirty, fail to understand what's going on, you know, revise your ideas, and come back to it again and again and again. And short form video, whether we're talking about TikTok or anything else, presumably is not providing that in most cases.

它直接给你过滤后的、正确的概念呈现。我认为这是跳过了所有犯错和失败的过程直达终点。当遇到没有现成视频指导的情况时——比如需要解决某个具体问题或进行计算时——这就显得尤为棘手。

It's giving you a filtered, correct idea of, you know, what this concept is. And I think, you know, you're going straight to the endpoint. And without the journey of through all the mess of getting it wrong and failing, I think that's very problematic, especially when you come to a situation where you're not going to be presented with that video. You know, solve this problem, work out this. Okay.

现在你必须经历实际犯错并从中学习的过程。我认为这是非常成问题的。

Now I've got to go through the process of actually getting things wrong and learning from that. And I think that's that's very problematic.

这与让老师在黑板上亲自示范作为第一个模型、第一个例子有何不同？最终，那个坐在教室里观看老师黑板演示的学生，也必须在没有帮助的情况下独自做出决定。这与在教室里观看演示和在手机上观看有什么区别？

How is that different from having the teacher at the blackboard do that demonstration himself or herself as a first model, first example? Ultimately, that student who's sitting in the classroom watching the teacher at the blackboard is also gonna have to be out there on his own, on her own to make that decision. How is it different from being in the classroom for the demonstration and looking at it on your phone?

嗯，我认为人们有一种期待，认为TikTok或那种学习方式能立即产生某种‘完美’的结果。如果视频经过反复剪辑和拼接，那么视频中就失去了课堂里那种来回交流、暂停、肢体语言、提问以及所有正常互动的机会——这些我们在疫情期间已经痛苦地意识到有多么重要。所以这确实是个问题。这其中缺失了我们都知道存在的人性化元素。

Well, I think there's an expectation that TikTok, you know, or learning in that way produces something immediately, which is, quote unquote, perfect. And if the video has been edited and edited and put together in such a way, then there's no opportunity within that video for, you know, back and forth, pausing, body language, asking questions, and all of the normal interactions which go on in the classroom, which, of course, you know, we learned as if we didn't know via COVID that we lost. So that that's really problematic. There's a human element to this, which we all know is there.

请允许我稍作反驳，我认为我们忽略了短视频如TikTok价值的几个关键点：它们能展示课堂上难以呈现的内容，还能更高效利用教学时间。提前制作的TikTok视频可以通过剪辑确保清晰简洁，让你在常规课堂中融入更多讨论内容。以化学演示为例——我深知准备演示的耗时，以及演示失败后收拾的麻烦。至于所谓‘消毒式完美呈现’，其实多数化学实验室使用的标准化实验手册，早被设计公司‘消毒’过了。

If I could push back a little bit on this, I think that we're overlooking a couple of key ideas behind a value of something like short form videos on TikTok, which is that they can give us an avenue into things that are not easy to show and demonstrate in the classroom at all. And they also make better use of instructional time because if you create a video on TikTok ahead of time, you can edit it for clarity, for brevity, and you can make it so that you can fit actually more content that you discuss into a normal classroom than you might otherwise be able to do. I myself, I love doing chemical demonstrations. I know how long it takes to set them up to break them down if they don't work properly. And to the point of this sanitization of everything being correct, our labs that we have students do in most chemistry classrooms have been sanitized by companies that design lab activities.

你不会让学生做可能失败的实验，因为若结果不理想，就得花时间讨论为何与预期偏差这么大。这种‘照方抓药’式的实验，我认为对普通化学学生而言，并不比没有上下文或缺乏深思熟虑的TikTok视频更有价值。

You're not going to have a student do a lab activity unless they're going to be able to get good results. Because if they don't get good results, then you're going to have to wrestle with, well, can we spend time talking about why their deviations from what I expected were so great. These kind of cookbook labs. And I don't think cookbook labs are any better for the average chemistry student than a TikTok video without any context or thoughtful use.

好的，Emer，非常感谢你的提问。我们非常感激。接下来，有请Amanda Lenhart。Amanda是芝麻工作室Joan Ganz Cooney中心的高级研究员。

Okay. Emer, thank you very much for your question. We really appreciate it. Next, I'd like to welcome in Amanda Lenhart. Amanda is a senior fellow at the Joan Ganz Cooney Center at Sesame Workshop.

Amanda，你研究儿童与家庭技术使用已超过二十年。据我所知，这包括在皮尤研究中心领导青少年与技术研究项目的十五年。非常感谢你一直以来的聆听，我们很高兴能听取你的问题。

And, Amanda, you've been studying how children and families use technology for more than two decades now. So you know a lot about this. That includes fifteen years, I understand, leading the work about young people and technology at the Pew Research Center. So thank you very much for listening in so far. And we're delighted to have you come in with with your questions.

请加入我们的讨论。

So please join us.

太好了，非常感谢。我是一名研究员，经常与孩子和家庭交流。我经常听到年轻人对TikTok充满热情，同时也听到他们的父母对此有很多担忧。

Great. Thank you so much. I am a researcher, I talk to kids and families all the time. And, you know, one of the things I hear a lot is I hear all the enthusiasm from young people about TikTok in particular. And then I hear a lot of concerns from their parents about it.

所以我想问你们两位的问题是，我们能否将社交媒体因素排除在外，特别是在将制作视频作为一种学习体验时？是否必须通过社交媒体，还是有一种方式能从短视频中获益而不必与社交媒体挂钩？

So I guess my question to both of you is really, can we take the social media aspect out of the equation, particularly when it comes to creating videos as a sort of a learning experience? Does it need to be on social media, or can we is there a way to get a benefit from the video and the short form video without it being connected to social media?

我很喜欢这个问题，尤其是对你，菲尔，因为你是一个通过平台吸引了大量观众的人。我想你有数百万的观看量。阿曼达的意思是，你是否可以在不上传的情况下制作这些视频？对此你有什么回应？

I love that question, especially for you, Phil, because you are somebody who is who's for whom the platform has drawn enormous audience. And I think, you know, you have millions of views. And I I think Amanda is suggesting, could you do it with could you do these videos without putting them up online? So what's your response to that?

我的回答是，我们绝对可以做到。你完全可以在不放弃项目带来的好处的情况下进行，这些项目要求学生进行高层次的思考、提炼和规划，以制作短视频内容。真正的挑战在于时间限制。

My response is absolutely we can do that. Absolutely you can do that. And you don't have to give up the benefits of a project that requires students to do the kind of high level thinking, refinement, and planning that would go into a short form piece of video content. You can definitely do that. The challenge really is the time limit.

如何在规定的时间内向目标观众传达你想表达的内容？所以，确实没有必要将内容发布到社交媒体上。然而，大多数高中生——这是我25年来一直教授的群体——非常渴望看到数字社区对他们作品的反馈。他们对点赞、转发、评论和观看量赋予了很多价值，这对我们这一代人来说可能难以理解。

How do you communicate what you're trying to say to the audience that it's focused towards in the time limit that I'm giving you? So so really, there's no there's no need to put it on social media. However, there is a large desire by most high school students. I mean, that's kind of the group that I've been teaching for twenty five years to see how other people respond kind of like the digital community to the work that they've done. There is a lot of value that is placed on a like, on a repost, on a comment, on the number of views that a piece of content might make that I think for people from my generation might be like, I don't understand what that feels like.

但对他们来说，这种感觉非常真实和强烈。因此，创作内容可能会带来很大的压力。正如阿德里安之前提到的，缺乏严谨性可能是人们急于发布内容、追求关注的结果。这无疑是一个缺点，但你完全可以在不将内容发布到TikTok上的情况下，实现良好的教育目标。

But for them, it's very visceral and it's very real. So there can be a big pressure to kind of create content. And I think to some of the points that Adrian brought up before, like this idea that it's lacking in rigor, that might be the consequence of people just trying to put content out there and seeing what sticks and gets them the most attention. It's definitely a downside, but you can absolutely do content like this and meet good educational objectives without posting it at all on TikTok.

这是否会让你对这种形式感到更放心？阿德里安，如果这不是关于将内容发布到网上、吸引数百万观众和追求点赞，而只是作为撰写论文的替代方式，比如制作一个视频，你会怎么看？

Would that make you feel better about this whole vehicle? I'll put it that way, Adrian. If if there if it wasn't about putting it online and reaching an audience of millions and going for the likes and all of that, but just the alternative to writing a paper on a topic, for example, just to make a video about it.

嗯，我的意思是，我认为最好的回答方式是，我偶尔会在教学中使用视频片段。虽然不是通过TikTok，但视频绝对是一种合适的工具，尽管我对某些方面有所保留，但它确实可以吸引人。但我们在这里讨论的不是内容本身，而是其社交媒体属性。我认为，今天我首先提出的观点是缺乏庄重感，这确实是个问题。

Well, I mean, I think the best way to answer that is that I use video clips in my teaching occasionally. Now it isn't via TikTok, but video is a tool which is absolutely appropriate and can be, you know, engaging despite my, protestations about some of that. But, you know, what we're talking about here is not the content. We're talking about the social media aspect of it. And I think that really you know, my first point today was this idea of a lack of gravitas, and I think that's a real problem.

我想，孩子们会说——假设这种情况发生在教室里，他们看到彼此的视频——他们会说'哇，你获得了400个赞或7000次观看'，而不是'天哪，你对勒夏特列原理的解释太棒了，我现在明白了'。我觉得事情不会那样发展。菲尔的经历可能不同，我不确定。

I think, you know, kids are going to be saying, let's say this happens in the classroom, they see one another's videos, the kids are going to be saying, wow, you got 400 likes or 7,000 views. They're not going to say, oh my gosh, that explanation of Le Chatelier's principle was amazing, and now I understand it. I mean, it's just not gonna work that way, I think. Phil may have a different experience. I don't know.

好的。非常感谢你，阿曼达。我们真的很感激你的参与。现在我想欢迎迈克尔·考尔菲尔德。迈克尔是信息素养研究员，也是《如何理性思考、减少受骗并更好地判断网络信息可信度》的合著者。

Alright. Well, thank you, Amanda. We really appreciate your being with us. I now wanna welcome Michael Caulfield. Michael is an information literacy researcher and also co author of How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions About What to Believe Online.

迈克尔，非常感谢你聆听这场讨论，请向我们的辩手提出你的问题。

Michael, thanks so much for listening into the conversation, and please come in with your question for our debaters.

今天很多讨论都围绕是否应该制作和分享优质内容。但我们是否也有责任引入TikTok上的一些不良内容，比如对科学的错误处理、与伪科学相关的材料、各种阴谋论等？向学生展示这些内容，教他们如何分析、批判并寻找更可靠的信息。如果我们不这样做，不在受控环境中将这些引入课堂，我们是否在削弱教学目标？因为我们在课堂上的时间很短，而TikTok占据他们的时间更长。如果我们不培养他们分析这类信息的能力，我们在课堂上的努力可能会被他们离开后接触的内容所抵消。

A lot of the conversation today has been about whether we should produce good content and share good content online. Do we have though also a responsibility to bring in some of the bad content from TikTok, some of the poor treatments of science, some of these stuff that you see out there that engages with bad science, various conspiracies and so forth. To show students that stuff and show them how they can analyze it, how they can critique it, how they can find better information. And if we don't do that, if we don't bring some of that into the classroom in a controlled environment to show students how to address it, are we kind of undermining our pedagogical aims because we have them for a very short period of time, but TikTok has them for a much longer period of time, long after they leave the classroom, and a lot of the stuff that we're trying to inculcate in the students can be undone if we don't give them those skills to be able to analyze those sorts of things that come across their feeds.

菲尔，你能先回答这个问题吗？

Can you take that question on first, Phil?

我对这个问题的初步回应是：绝对应该这样做。尤其是随着AI生成视频内容的兴起，我认为这对学生——实际上对所有人——来说将变得越来越重要，需要学会应对、识别并成为批判性思考者。我知道阿德里安和我作为教育者，都希望学生能批判性地思考周围的世界及其运作方式，能够识别错误信息。虽然我目前尚未专门使用TikTok上的不良视频进行教学，但偶尔会有学生主动带来视频提问。

So my initial response to your question is absolutely, it's something that we should do. Especially with the rise of AI generated video content. I think this is gonna become an increasingly important thing for students to be able to, and actually the general population, to wrestle with and identify and be able to be critical thinkers. I know that Adrian and I both are are, as educators, want our students to be thinking critically about the world around them and how it works and to be able to identify misinformation. And that's not something that I've currently done with kind of bad videos on TikTok yet, aside from the anecdotal students bringing in videos just to ask questions about it?

阿德里安，你对这个问题怎么看？

Adrian, what's your take on that question?

我认为这是个极好的问题，而且非常重要。我觉得这是我们应当去做的事，但我有个简短却略带悲观的结论——我们能做到，但孩子们不会在意。他们缺乏真正理解这些事的兴趣。这又回到了我之前说的，孩子们最终会成为选民，投票时他们并不在乎自己是否了解相关背景。

I think it's an excellent question, and I think it's really important. And I think it's something that we should be doing, but I have a short rather cynical conclusion. I think that we can do that, and the kids won't care. I think there's a lack of interest in really understanding that. And it goes back to what I was saying about kids ultimately becoming, voters in the electorate who are gonna vote on things that they don't care if they know something else about that.

所以我不确定他们是否知道某些事是错误的。而且我认为——真的存在一个被过度简化的观念，以为教师在这个领域的影响力比实际更大。根据我的经验，我可以年复一年地向孩子们讲述我确信的事实，直到面红耳赤，而他们只会无视这些，做出完全相反的行为。在这方面我的经历并不乐观。

So I'm not if they know something is wrong. You know? And I think and I think there's there's a really, really, really oversimplified idea that teachers have more influence than they actually have in this field. And my experience has been that, you know, I can tell the kids things which I know to be true until I'm blue in the face for years on end, and then they'll just ignore that and go and do something quite to the contrary. My experience has not been good in that regard.

因此我觉得必须继续做下去，我们也应该这么做。但就效果而言，我认为非常有限。

So I think I have to keep doing it, and I think we should be doing it. But its effectiveness, I think, I found to be very minimal.

迈克尔，我们时间不多了。但我想知道，你是否考虑过实施那种纠正性教学？比如在化学课上每周抽出一小部分时间——本来教学时间就很紧张——专门做这个。你设想这种方式会如何运作？

Michael, we we don't have a lot of time left. But I'm wondering, do do you have you thought about an implementation of that sort of corrective teaching? You know, a portion once a week of a chemistry class, which there's so little time to teach anyway, but set aside a little bit of time for that. What's your vision of how that would work?

当然。我的工作其实很多就是专门设计这类教学模块。但问题往往落在图书管理员身上，对吧？他们会负责整个信息素养课程。我们认为图书管理员很棒，我很欣赏他们，但这类通用技能他们能做的有限。

Sure. A lot of my work is actually designing modules specifically on that. But often the problem is it falls to librarians, right? So librarians will do the entire info lit sequence. Our belief is that librarians are great, I love librarians, but they can only do so much with these sort of general skills.

如果真要解决这个问题，我们确实需要所有学科的老师都在课程中融入一点相关内容。我认为存在可行方法——我们的研究也证明某些开发的方法非常有效。但正如两位提到的，最大挑战就是时间。课程已经排得太满，我们的观察是多数教师想做这件事，但很难挤出时间。

We really need, if we're going to address this stuff, we really need people from all the disciplines to incorporate a little bit of this in their class. And I think there are ways and I think we've developed ways that our research shows are very effective, but to the point both participants have made here, a big challenge is just time. The curriculum is already so filled, and I think our perspective is most teachers wanna do this, but they, it's hard to carve out the time.

嗯，带来了

Well, brought

我们来到了对话中一个有趣的地方，现在必须结束了，迈克尔。但我非常感谢你的参与。现在是时候通过结束语来总结这场辩论了。菲尔，你第一个来做结束发言，最后一次说明为什么你认为TikTok正在提升教学职业。

us to an interesting place in the conversation that we have to wrap up now, Michael. But I thank you very much for for joining us. But this is the time to bring this debate home with closing remarks. Phil, you are up first with your closing remark one last time why you believe TikTok is enhancing the teaching profession.

所以我想用一个小故事来结束，这个故事对我来说非常有启发性，说明了社交媒体整体的有效性及其实用性。这是我和我的高级化学课程学生在他们参加完考试后做的一个项目。众所周知，这是一个学生很难在课堂上保持学习热情的时间，因为他们已经考完试了，对吧？我们设定的所有目标都已经实现了。但我告诉他们我们要做一个视频项目，你们可以自由选择任何你们觉得有趣的概念，第一次学习时就感兴趣的内容。

So I thought I'd end with a little story that was very telling for me about the effectiveness of social media in general and its utility. And this is a project that I did with my advanced placement chemistry students after they had already taken the exam. It's a notoriously a difficult time for students to maintain their zeal for learning in the classroom because they've taken the test, right? All of those goalposts that we had set and worked so hard toward had been met. But I told them we're gonna do a video project and you have the freedom to be able to choose whatever concept you'd like, something that you found interesting when we were learning about it the first time.

我希望你们制作一个关于它的视频。视频必须在六十秒以内。你们必须让它面向非科学家的观众。所以他们必须进行一定的筛选。我看到我所有的学生都这样做了。

And I want you to make a video about it. It has to be sixty seconds or less. You have to make it geared towards an audience of non scientists. So they had to kind of filter it through. And so I saw all of my students do this.

对我来说，评估的部分是他们必须首先向同龄人展示。所以全班同学都观看了其他人的视频。然后我邀请了学校的老师和行政人员来观看最后的部分。所以他们从同龄人和我这里得到了一轮反馈，然后他们有机会修改并展示最终的作品。当他们看到彼此的内容时，我看到了多少双像车灯前的大鹿一样惊讶的眼睛。

And the assessment piece for me was they had to first present it to their peers. So the whole class watched everyone else's videos. Then I brought in teachers and administrators from my school for the final piece. So they got a round of feedback from their peers and me, and then they got to revise and then show their final product. It was amazing how many big deer in headlight eyes I saw when they saw each other's content.

从中得到的启示是，如果关注严谨性，那么传达相对简单的化学概念是可行的。但对我来说，在那个特定过程中的挑战和严谨性体现在他们必须做的事情上。他们必须制作故事板。他们必须想出一种方法来向相对非科学家传达他们选择的复杂主题。

And the takeaway from it is this, if concerned with rigor, communicating were relatively straightforward chemistry concepts? Yes. But the challenge and the rigor for me in that particular process came through in what they had to do. They had to storyboard. They had to come up with a way to communicate to relative non scientists that complex topic that they chose.

他们必须通过视觉展示，并且必须在六十秒内保持简洁。这种积极参与创作过程的能力带来了一些有趣的事情，你看到学生失败，然后形成性地提出解决方案。所以对我来说，我认为这是我会继续做的事情。我认为它非常有效。

They had to show it visually, and they had to keep it concise under sixty seconds. And that ability to kind of actively engage in the process of creation had some interesting things where you saw students fail and then formatively come up with a solution to it. So for me, I think that it's something that I'll continue to do. I think it's been highly effective.

阿德里安，你在我们的辩论中获得最后的发言权。再次强调，这是你最后一次机会说服我们，为何TikTok正在侵蚀教育行业。

Adrian, you get the last word here in our debate. Again, this is your last chance to convince us why TikTok is eroding the teaching profession.

同样地，像菲尔那样，我要以个人经历为例，这或许会让某些人惊讶——许多学生其实并不渴望新技术、新理念或课堂上的持续创新。我教的很多孩子常对我说：'我们喜欢你授课的方式，因为你直接传授知识。内容明确，简单直接。我们不必参与那些毫无兴趣的项目。'

So, again, anecdotally, just as Phil was, giving us, the benefit of his experience in a positive way, I think the overarching anecdote that I will tell you, and this may be surprising to some people, maybe it isn't, there are a lot of kids who don't want new technology or new ideas or constantly having innovation in the classroom. A lot of kids that I teach often say to me, you know, we like what you do because you're delivering the material. We know what it is. There's no ambiguity, and it's really simple and straightforward. The the the the we're we're not engaged in projects that we have no interest in doing.

比如在化学课上，我对学习视频剪辑和创作大量内容毫无兴趣——我真正感兴趣的是化学本身。我认为有大量学生渴望这种传统教学方式。根据我的观察，这在认真求学的学生中尤为普遍。当然，那些觉得学校缺乏吸引力的学生，自然会更热衷我所谓的'项目作业'，但这些往往让他们远离实质学习内容。

For example, I have no interest, if I'm in a chemistry class, to be editing and learn learning about video editing and creating a whole bunch of content. I'm actually interested in the chemistry. And I think there's a lot of kids out there who are craving that kind of traditional approach. And, anecdotally, I find that to be true amongst a lot of kids who are serious about learning. Now some of the kids who perhaps don't find school quite so stimulating, sure, they're gonna be very interested in doing what I loosely call projects, which I think are gonna allow them to, you know, possibly not engage with the material.

或许有人会争论这些孩子是否该学化学，也许他们真该去追求更感兴趣的事物。但从化学学科角度看，知识内容才是核心。这正是我对社交媒体（尤其是TikTok）现状深感忧虑的原因。

And, you know, there's maybe a debate as to whether they should be even studying chemistry. You know, maybe those kids should actually be doing something which they find more interesting. But I think from a chemistry point of view, the content is king, and that really worries me about what's going on with social media in general and TikTok in particular.

感谢阿德里安。本次辩论就此结束。我要感谢菲尔和阿德里安两位的参与，你们在保持相互尊重的前提下展现了鲜明对立观点，使讨论格外精彩。更要感谢提问者梅芙、阿曼达和迈克尔提出的深刻问题。

Thank you, Adrian. And that is a wrap on this debate. So I'd like to thank both of you, Phil and Adrian, for taking part in this conversation, for disagreeing with each other with such mutual respect and civility, but it was clear you're on opposite sides of this divide, and you made it very, very interesting. And even more interesting were the questions that came from our thoughtful questioners. So thank you, Merv and Amanda and Michael.

最后衷心感谢收听本期《开放辩论》开学特辑的观众们。需要说明的是，我们是非营利组织，致力于通过你们刚才听到的文明辩论来对抗极端对立。我们的工作离不开听众支持，感谢罗森克兰茨基金会及《开放辩论》的赞助者。罗伯特·罗森克兰茨担任主席，克莱·奥康纳任CEO。

And finally, a big thank you to you, our audience, for tuning into this episode of Open to Debate, our back to school special. I wanna point out that we are, as you know, a nonprofit working to combat extreme polarization through what you just heard, civil debate. And our work is made possible by listeners like you, by the Rosencrantz Foundation, and by supporters of Open to Debate. Robert Rosencrantz is our chairman. Our CEO is Clay O'Connor.

莉娅·马索任首席内容官，伊丽莎白·基岑伯格任首席发展官，安德鲁·利普森负责制作部，米歇尔·德布雷切尼任市场总监。本期节目由亚历克西斯·潘格拉齐和玛莱特·桑多瓦尔制作。

Leah Mathow is our chief content officer. Elizabeth Kitzenberg is our chief advancement officer. Andrew Lipson is head of production. Michele Debreceny is our director of marketing. This episode was produced by Alexis Pangrazi and Marlette Sandoval.

编辑与研究由Gabriela Mayer完成。Max Fulton和Julia Serkin提供了制作支持。开放辩论团队还包括Gabrielle Ioneicelli、Rachel Kemp、Eric Gross、Linda Lee、Katy Perry和Tom Bunting。本集节目由Damon Whitimore混音。主题音乐由Alex Clement创作，我是John Donvan。

Editorial and research by Gabriela Mayer. Max Fulton and Julia Serkin provided production support. The open to debate team also includes Gabrielle Ioneicelli, Rachel Kemp, Eric Gross, Linda Lee, Katy Perry, and Tom Bunting. Damon Whitimore mixed this episode. Our theme music is by Alex Clement, and I'm John Donvan.

下次《开放辩论》节目再见。

We'll see you next time on Open to Debate.