#90：偏见如何运作——与杰克·多维迪奥的对话

早在1954年，社会心理学家戈登·奥尔波特出版了一本书，名为《偏见的本质》。

Back in 1954, the social psychologist Gordon Allport published a book, the nature of prejudice.

这本书涵盖了数百页，多达三十多个章节。

It had more than 30 chapters across hundreds and hundreds of pages.

这是一项真正的学术壮举。

It was a real feat of scholarship.

你可能会想，当然如此。

And you might think, well, sure.

在那个年代，种族主义十分猖獗。

Back in those days, racism was rampant.

他需要解释很多问题。

He had a lot to explain.

是的，当时的情况并不乐观。

And, yeah, the situation wasn't great.

民意调查机构长期以来一直在询问人们关于种族的问题，因此我们可以回溯历史。

Polling firms have been asking people questions about race for a long time, so we can peer back into history.

例如，在美国，1958年，就在奥尔波特关于偏见的著作出版几年后，盖洛普询问人们是否赞成或反对白人与黑人之间的婚姻。

In The US, for example, in 1958, just a few years after Allport's book on prejudice came out, Gallup asked people if they approved or disapproved of marriage between white and black people.

只有4%的人赞成跨种族婚姻。

Only 4% of people approved of interracial marriage.

但当我们查看今天的民调时，信息却截然不同。

But when we look at polling today, the message couldn't be more different.

当盖洛普在2021年询问美国人对跨种族婚姻的看法时，94%的人表示赞成。

When Gallup asked Americans about interracial marriage in twenty twenty one, ninety four percent of people approved.

那剩下的6%让我觉得难以理解，但94%已经接近共识了。

Now that remaining 6% is wild to me, but still 94% is about as close to consensus as you get.

去年皮尤研究中心的一项调查发现，74%的白人美国人支持解决种族不平等问题，甚至认为这些努力还不够。

A Pew survey from last year found that 74% of white Americans agree with efforts to address racial inequality or even think they haven't gone far enough.

因此，这随着时间的推移发生了巨大变化。

So that's a huge change over time.

种族主义已经大大消退了。

Racism has receded a ton.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，算是吧。

Well, sorta.

人们所表达的信念，即使他们真心认同，也可能并非全部真相。

The beliefs people express, even that they're truly committed to, might not be the whole story.

我最近了解到一项几年前一些经济学家在eBay这个在线拍卖网站上做的实验。

I recently learned about this experiment that some economists did a few years ago on eBay, that online auction site.

他们买下了数百张旧棒球卡，不是最稀有、最受欢迎的卡片，但也不是垃圾卡。

They bought up hundreds of old baseball cards, not the rarest, most sought after cards, but not junk either.

每张卡他们花了大约10美元。

They spent around $10 for each one.

几周后，他们自己把这些卡片挂出来出售。

And a few weeks later, they posted those same cards for sale themselves.

他们使用的描述和当初购买时完全一样。

They used exactly the same descriptions as when they bought the cards.

起拍价始终是99美分，拍卖持续七天，由出价最高者赢得。

Starting bids were always 99¢, and they were on the site for seven days, sold to the highest bidder.

但为什么我要跟你们讲这些经济学家的副业呢？

But so why am I telling you about some economists' side hustle?

嗯，他们耍了点花招。

Well, they got sneaky.

如果你曾经在网上买过东西，就知道你通常在决定购买前都能看到这件商品。

If you've ever bought a thing on the Internet, you know that you usually get to see that thing before you decide to buy.

所以他们需要拍下自己要出售的卡片照片。

So they needed to take pictures of the cards they were selling.

而他们以一种非常业余的方式，只是用手拿着卡片对着纯色背景拍照。

And in a real amateur move, they would just hold a card in their hand against a solid background and snap a photo.

搞定。

Voila.

这当然不是安塞尔·亚当斯的作品，但凑合能用。

It was no Ansel Adams, but it would do.

但关键是。

But here's the thing.

这一切都是有意为之，因为握着卡片的手并不总是同一个人。

This was all very intentional because it wasn't always the same hand holding the card.

有时候是白人拿着卡片，有时候是黑人拿着卡片。

Sometimes it was a white guy holding the card, and sometimes it was a black guy holding the card.

但人们注意到了。

But people noticed.

我们知道他们注意到了，因为尽管这些手本身毫无意义，但由黑人手拿着的卡片售价却低于由白人手拿着的卡片。

And we know they noticed because even though those hands meant nothing at all, the cards that happened to be held by a black hand sold for less than the cards that happened to be held by a white hand.

那位精明的经济学家说他们就是这样。

The financially prudent economist said they were.

他们还检查了在转售游戏中的盈利情况，结果总体上亏了钱。

They also checked to see how much profit they made in their resale game, and they lost money overall.

这是一项研究，而不是生意。

This was a study, not not a business.

但当卡片由黑人卖家持有时，其价值下降得比白人卖家持有时更多。

But the cards lost more value when they were held by a black seller than by a white seller.

我可以列举大量类似的研究，这些研究表明，现代人的日常普通决定都会受到种族影响。

And I could highlight all sorts of studies like this where modern people's everyday ordinary decisions are affected by race.

但但是呢？

But but what?

我以为我以为我们已经摆脱了偏见和种族主义。

I thought I I thought we were done with prejudice and racism.

民意调查。

The polls.

看看民意调查。

Look at the polls.

人们表示他们厌恶种族主义并渴望平等。

People are saying they abhor racism and want equality.

他们真的可能在某些时候仍然受到偏见影响吗？

Could they really still be subject to bias at least some of the time?

我想奥尔波特的偏见本质一书至今依然具有相关性。

I suppose Allport's nature of prejudice is still relevant after all.

在一次回顾中，一些心理学家写道，十年前出版的书籍通常被认为已经过时。

In a retrospective, some psychologists wrote that books written a decade ago are typically considered to be outdated.

然而，在出版半个世纪后，偏见本质的影响范围和持久力堪称非凡。

Yet half a century after its publication, the scope and endurance of the nature of prejudice's influence has been nothing short of remarkable.

我们仍然需要一门偏见心理学。

We still need a psychology of prejudice.

顺便说一下，这句话出自一位名叫杰克·戴维迪奥的人合著的文章，这个名字听起来如此耳熟。

And by the way, that quote comes from a piece cowritten by a guy named Jack Davidio, and that name sounds so familiar.

他以前来过这个节目吗？

Has he been on the show before?

你正在收听《观点科学》，一档关于我们的观点、观点的来源以及我们如何讨论它们的节目。

You're listening to opinion science, the show about our opinions, where they come from, and how we talk about them.

如果你还没猜出来，今天的嘉宾就是杰克·德维多。

And if you didn't figure it out, today's guest is Jack DeVideo.

他真是位了不起的嘉宾。

And what a guest he is.

他是耶鲁大学的荣休教授，毕生致力于定义心理学家对偏见的理解方式。

He's an emeritus professor at Yale University, and he's spent his career really defining how psychologists have thought about prejudice.

和他聊 podcast 真的非常有趣。

It was super fun to talk to him for the podcast.

我们谈到了他早期在该领域研究人们在危难时刻如何相互帮助，他与萨姆·格特纳开创性地提出“厌恶型种族主义”概念——即人们可能在意识上反对偏见，但仍对边缘群体存有潜藏的负面情绪，以及他近期关于偏见如何渗透到医疗护理中的研究。

We talk about his early days in the field studying what makes people help each other in times of need, his pioneering work with Sam Gertner on the idea of aversive racism or the possibility that people can be consciously opposed to prejudice but still have lingering negative feelings about marginalized groups, and his more recent work on how bias can creep into medical care.

所以我不再多说了。

So no more blabbing from me.

我们直接开始吧。

Let's get right to it.

为了让我们进入主题，也许你可以给我们讲讲那段背景故事。

To get us started, maybe you could tell us a little bit of that backstory.

如果你把时间倒回到最初，比如你在七十年代研究种族态度时，我想那时学界对这一研究领域的态度可能和今天有所不同。

So if you zoom all the way back to the the origin story, like, you know, you were doing work on racial attitudes back in the seventies when, you know, I I think probably the field had a probably different relationship with that area of research than it does today.

所以我很想知道，当你刚成为一名有抱负的心理学家时，你原本打算把研究种族态度作为你的职业生涯吗？

So I'm curious, like, when you started out as a a budding psychologist, were you planning on making a career out of studying racial attitudes?

或者，你最初是什么样的动机让你卷入了这个麻烦？

Or, like, what what was your initial inclination that got you into this whole mess?

是的，不，我根本没有打算研究种族态度。

Yeah, no, I had no intentions of studying racial attitudes.

事实上，我是通过助人行为这条路径进入这个领域的，当时我还是本科生。

I actually got into it through the helping behavior route as an undergraduate, in fact.

作为本科生，我的第一个研究项目，后来也成了我的第一篇发表论文，就是关于助人行为的。

And as an undergraduate, my very first study, which turned out to be my very first publication, was on helping behavior.

当然，我本人也经历过歧视和种族歧视。

And, you know, I had personal experiences related to discrimination and racial discrimination.

上大学时，我曾在一项名为‘更好机会’的项目中做实习生，辅导一些非裔和拉美裔的高中生。

When I was in college I was an intern at what's called a Better Chance Program where there were Black and Latinx high school students that I tutored.

但当我进入研究生院时，就在第一天，我的导师、特拉华大学的萨姆·格特纳就把我叫去，说：我们的目标是，他要让我去做他感兴趣的研究，而我也要让他去做我感兴趣的研究。

But when I got to graduate school, kind of like the very first day, Sam Gertner, who was my advisor at the University of Delaware, sat me down and said, What our goal is is for me to convince him to do the work I'm interested in and for him to convince me to do the work he's interested in.

我把助人行为摆在桌面上，他把种族态度摆在桌面上，接下来的五十年里，我们的合作基本上就是这两种兴趣的融合，这种相互影响令人兴奋，因为它形成了良好的互动与平衡。

And I put helping behavior on the table and he put racial attitudes on the table and that was what the next five decades basically work together has been that kind of merger of that kind of interests that have been reciprocal and exciting because it's a good push and pull.

关于助人行为，也许我漏掉了这部分，它到底有什么特别之处？

What was it about helping behavior thatmaybe I missed that part.

为什么你会把助人行为作为重点提出来呢？

Like, why was that the thing you put on the table?

在本科期间，我必须完成一篇研究论文。

As an undergraduate, I had to do a research thesis.

在一门课上，我和另外三个人组队做项目，而我其实几乎都不认识他们。

And in a class I was with three other people that we had to do a project, most of whom I really didn't know.

在项目中，我深深感受到，我们共同面对必须设计出一个项目的压力，反而拉近了彼此的距离；我们这些原本互不相识的人，突然间成了亲密的知己，进行了非常有价值的交流，最终促成了我们关于助人行为的研究项目。

And in the project I was just impressed of how the shared stress we had of having to come up with a project brought us closer together and how helpful we were, you know, strangers, people who started out as strangers suddenly became close confidants and had very valuable exchanges, which led to us coming up with a project on helping behavior.

这实际上成为贯穿我所有研究的一个主题：我们如何与他人产生认同，会影响我们是否以及何时愿意帮助他们。

And that's been actually a theme that's gone through all my research is looking at how we identify with other people affects whether or not we help them and when we help them.

所以我觉得，有时候人们对助人行为有自己的理解。

So I think sometimes people have their own idea of what helping behavior means.

当你谈到助人行为时，你们具体研究过哪些方面，比如人们是否会帮助他人？

So when you talk about helping behavior, like what are the sorts of things that you've like looked at whether people help or not?

你所说的‘帮助’具体指的是什么？

Like what do you mean by helping?

是的，我们研究的是一些非常琐碎且自发的行为。

Yeah, I would say the kinds of things we looked at was things that were very trivial and spontaneous.

我最早的一项研究是关于有人打翻了一百支铅笔，看看人们是否会捡起来，以及他们会提供多少帮助，还有他们不同的反应方式。

So, my very first study was about someone knocking over a 100 pencils, a jar of a 100 pencils to see if people would pick them up and how much they would help and the ways they responded.

而在另一端，我们研究了紧急干预，制造看似生死攸关的紧急情况，观察人们在这些高风险、紧迫情境中的反应。

And then on the other extreme we looked at emergency interventions, staging emergencies that were seemingly life and death and to see how people would respond in those kinds of very pressing situations where the stakes were very high.

我们还试图弄清楚：人们为什么愿意提供帮助？

And then we tried to figure out too is why are people helping?

你帮助他人主要是为了自己，为了让自己感觉更好吗？

Are you helping mainly to help yourself, to feel better about yourself?

还是你真的以他人的福祉为首要考虑，超越了自己的利益？

Or are you really motivated to put someone else's welfare as primary over yours?

而这被称为利他主义。

And that would be called altruism.

你提到了这些紧急情况，每当它们被拿出来讨论时，总让我觉得它们是社会心理学的重要素材。

You mentioned these emergencies, and they always strike me as the great feeder of social psychology sometimes when they get pulled off.

你能给我们举一个你早期做过的类似研究的例子吗？

Can you give us an example of like one of those early studies where you did this?

为了让人处于那种情境中，你们具体做了些什么？

Like what did you have to pull off in order to put people in that position?

是的，我的心理学成长经历中，有一个著名的案例就是凯蒂·吉诺维斯事件，她在38人目击的情况下被杀害，却无人报警。

Yeah, I mean, know, sort of I grew up in psychology in the Kitty Genovese, the person who was killed while 38 people witnessed the event and no one called the police.

达利和拉塔内当时正在写书，探讨人们为何不施以援手，人们当时谈论的是旁观者冷漠现象。

Dali and Latine were writing books about why people don't help and people were talking about bystander apathy.

因此，我们试图创造类似生死攸关的紧急情境。在其中一个实验范式中，参与者以为自己将与另一个房间的人一起参加一个超感官知觉（ESP）实验。

And so, what we tried to do is create the kinds of life and death emergencies and what we did was we basically in one paradigm had people, what participants would be doing would be thinking that they're going to be participating in an ESP experiment with another person in another room.

他们进入房间后，会看到一个凌乱的房间，堆满了椅子和其他物品。

They would go by the room, they would see a messy room piled with a whole bunch of chairs and other things.

那就像一个储藏室。

It was like a storage room.

我们说那个人就在这里接收信息。

We said that's where the person will be sending it.

然后，当他们正在接收心灵感应信息时，突然会出现一个中断，另一个实际上是录音的人会说：‘哎呀，那些椅子好像要倒了。’

And then, while they were receiving the ESP messages, all of sudden there'd be an interruption where the other person who was actually tape recorded would say, Gee, those chairs look like they're going to fall.

这真是巧合得惊人。

They're remarkable coincidence.

接着就会传来椅子轰然倒塌的巨大声响，有时我们还会让那个人发出呻吟和哀嚎，明显是在痛苦中。

And then there'd be this large crash of chairs falling down and sometimes we would have the person groan and moan, obviously in pain.

有时他们会呼救，有时你只听到巨大的撞击声。

Sometimes they would call for help, and sometimes you would just hear the loud crash.

但在所有情况下，当他们试图接收心灵感应信息时，你都只能安静地坐着。

But in all cases, you just sat there in silence when they were trying to receive ESP messages.

因此，实验显然被中断了，但大多数人真的相信那是一场真实的紧急情况。

So the experiment was clearly interrupted, but most people really believed that that was an actual emergency.

所以提到，萨姆是那个把种族态度带入讨论的人。

So mentioned So Sam was the one who put racial attitudes on the table.

你知道这想法是从哪里来的吗？

Do you have a sense of where that came from?

那时候他已经在做这方面的研究了吗？

Was that stuff that he was doing already at the time?

是的。

Yeah.

他实际上已经发表了一些关于回避性种族主义的最早研究，这是一种微妙的种族主义形式。

He had actually published some of the earliest work on aversive racism, a subtle form of racism.

基本上，我在他刚开始这项研究后不久就加入了，我们的合作主要是试图发展回避性种族主义这一概念。

Basically, I came in relatively early after he had started that research and our collaborations were really about trying to develop the idea of aversive racism.

我会解释一下什么是回避性种族主义。

And I'll explain what aversive racism is.

当时研究种族态度的很多人——正如你所说，研究种族态度的人并不多。

Many of the people who were studying racial attitudes at the time, and as you said, there weren't a lot of people studying racial attitudes.

那是一个非常有趣的时期，因为当时正处于民权运动之后，社会发生了许多变化，但这个话题却并未被人们视为优先事项。

It was a very interesting time period because it was post civil rights era, there were a lot of changes going on, but yet it wasn't the kind of topic that people found a high priority.

事实上，一些著名的心理学家告诉我不要研究种族态度，因为他们说种族问题太复杂，也太应用化了。

And in fact, some prominent psychologists told me not to study racial attitudes because they said race is too complicated and it's too applied.

所以他们鼓励我去追求其他方向，但结果是我很固执。

So they encouraged me to pursue other things, but it turns out I'm stubborn.

作为一名学者，好处就在于你可以去研究自己真正感兴趣的问题。

The nice thing about being an academic is you get to pursue the questions you want to pursue.

回避性种族主义基本上是从‘谁有偏见’这个想法出发，试图改变过去那种认为只要能识别出有偏见的人，就可以像切除癌症一样把他们剔除，社会就能从此变得纯净的旧方法。

Aversive racism was basically trying to go from the idea of who's prejudiced, trying to think that the old approach was if we could just identify who's prejudiced, I would call it the cancer approach, you can cut them out and society will be better and pure from there on out.

但回避性种族主义试图关注的不是那些公开的种族主义者，而是那些声称自己没有偏见、可能真心相信自己没有偏见，却仍在以微妙而复杂的方式进行歧视的大量人群。

But what aversive racism was trying to do was not look at the attitude so much of the people who were open bigots, but the many people who said they weren't prejudiced, who probably truly believed that they weren't prejudiced, but they were still discriminating, often in subtle ways and complex ways.

因此，这实际上关乎的是我们所谓‘善意之人’身上偏见的持续存在。

So it was really about the perpetuation of bias among what we called those people who are well intentioned.

我想知道这个想法是从哪里来的。

I'm curious where that idea stems from.

我们已经能够相当清楚地确认，这种情况确实会发生。

We're able to establish pretty well that that's something that happens.

但在早期，这是否只是一种对数据的好奇，让你不禁想：为什么人们嘴上说的和实际做的不一样呢？

But in those beginning days, was it sort of like a curiosity looking at data where you're like, well, why are people saying one thing but doing another?

还是更像是一种直觉，比如，我不知道。

Or or more of like a hunch of like, I don't know.

我总听到人们说他们已经超越了这个问题，但我就是不信，不管出于什么原因。

I keep hearing people say that they're they're over the this issue, and yet, like, I just don't I don't believe them for one reason or another.

那么，这种想法的根源是什么？为什么人们会同时持有相互矛盾的感受？

So, like, where where what's the genesis of this kind of inclination that that maybe people hold these divergent feelings at the same time?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当时社会心理学的核心课题就是研究态度。

I mean, was it was basically around, you know, the bread and butter of social psychology at the time was studying attitudes.

我们研究态度，是因为它们能预测行为。

And we studied attitudes because they predict behavior.

但当我们进入种族态度领域时，人们所宣称的态度，甚至他们对自己行为原因的解释，都与他们的实际行为不符。

But when we got into the domain of racial attitudes, what people said their attitudes were, what people said even why they were doing what they were doing, didn't match their actual behavior.

因此，在我们的数据中，首先存在一个巨大的脱节：态度并不能预测行为。

So there was this big disconnect, I would say, in our data, first of all, that the attitudes weren't predicting behavior.

但在我们与参与者的互动中，特别是在我向你提到的紧急情况研究中，我们发现当人们面对紧急情况，且受害者是黑人或白人时，他们更倾向于推卸责任。

But in our interactions with participants, in the emergency study that I mentioned to you, I described, one of the things we found was that when people were exposed to that emergency and it was a Black victim or a White victim, they were more likely to diffuse responsibility.

也就是说，他们更可能认为，如果周围有其他人，那些人会去干预。

That is, they were more likely to believe that if there were other people around, these other people would intervene.

因此，他们选择不去帮助黑人。

And so they chose not to help the Black person.

在这种情况下，他们帮助黑人的人数少于帮助白人的人数。

So they helped the Black person less than the White person in that situation.

但当我事后与他们交谈，讨论他们做出决定的原因时，他们通常回避提及受害者的种族，尤其是当受害者是黑人时。

But when I talked with them afterwards and we discussed why they made their decisions, they generally avoided talking about the race of the victim when the victim was black.

即使我向他们展示受害者是黑人的信息，许多人仍否认他们注意到了对方的种族。

Even when I showed them information that the victim was black, many of them denied that they even noticed the race of the person.

所以显然，某种与他们所说内容不一致的现象正在发生，而对我来说，这正是回避型种族主义的关键所在。

So clearly something was happening that was inconsistent not only with what they were saying, but this is to me the important aspect of aversive racism.

他们的行为与他们自认为的态度不一致。

Their behavior was inconsistent with what they believed their attitudes were.

他们在很大程度上所相信的，其实是他们自以为相信的东西。

What they believed they believed in many ways.

这让我感到非常着迷。

And that made it really intriguing to me.

那么，一个人如何能自认为没有偏见、非歧视，却仍陷入这些决策背离其价值观的情境中呢？

So how is it that someone can believe themselves to be unbiased and non prejudiced and still find themselves in these situations where their decisions are betraying those values?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是我们当时最大的疑问。

I mean, that was our big question, you know.

而当时的一个挑战是，谈论无意识在社会心理学中不被看好，因为‘无意识’听起来像是弗洛伊德的心理动力学。

And one of the challenges at that time is that people talking about unconscious was frowned upon in social psychology because unconscious sounded Freudian psychodynamics.

这发生在斯金纳之后。

And this is post Skinner.

我们必须关注行为，必须表面化地看待事物，这才是黄金标准。

We have to look at behavior, we have to just take things at face value, that's the gold standard.

如果人们不想处理内省，基本上就是这样。

If people, you don't want to deal with introspection, basically.

所以，如果你不承认无意识的态度，你该如何解释这种现象呢？

So that was kind of the challenge is that how can you explain this if you don't have unconscious attitudes?

因此，萨姆·加滕和我提出，人们拥有无意识的态度。

So that led Sam Garten and I to propose that people had unconscious attitudes.

这一想法的核心是，我们不应只问谁有偏见，而应自问：偏见为何首先存在？

And the whole idea behind this was that actually rather than asking who's prejudiced, we would ask ourselves why does prejudice exist in the first place?

当我们审视关于人们为何会产生偏见的心理学理论时——你做过相关播客，我看过，比如社会认同理论，它认为我们更看重自己群体的成员，而非其他群体，这是一种普遍反应。

And when we looked at the psychological theories about why people might develop prejudice, and you've done podcasts on it, I've seen them, very well, like social identity theory, is that we value members of our own group more than other groups, and that's a universal response.

我们成长在一个以种族主义为基础的社会中，这个社会宣称‘人人生而平等’，但花了两百多年才通过立法保障这一原则。

That we have grown up in a society that is racist founded on the proposition that all men were created equal and it took us over two hundred years to pass legislation guaranteeing that.

所以我们得出的结论是，人们产生偏见的原因有很多。

So basically what we concluded is that there are a lot of reasons why people would be biased.

因此，偏见很可能存在于大多数人身上。

So the bias is likely to be in most people.

那么问题就来了：是什么导致人们声称自己没有偏见？

And so the question was what would lead people to say they're not biased?

于是我们开始认为，他们在非常基本的层面上所想和所信的内容，与他们在有意识层面上所想和所信的内容之间可能存在一种脱节。

And that's where we began to say that there may be this dissociation between what they think and what they believe at some very basic level and what they think and believe at a very conscious level.

因此，多年来我们提出，这些无意识的偏见在驱动着许多人。

And so we posited for a number of years that there were these unconscious biases that were driving many people.

所以他们并不是在对我们的态度撒谎，只是他们没有意识到自己偏见的深度。

So it wasn't that they were lying to us about their attitudes, they just weren't aware of the depth of their biases.

但让我在这里简单说一下。

But let me just say that real quickly here.

多年来这种方法的问题在于：当我向观众演讲时，我会说，一方面，我们有公开的偏执者，他们承认自己有偏见并且确实如此。

The problem with that approach for many years was this: when I would speak to an audience, I would say, on the one hand we have overt bigots who say they're prejudiced and are prejudiced.

另一方面，我们有回避型种族主义者，他们声称自己没有偏见，但实际上却存在偏见。

On the other hand we have aversive racists who say they're not prejudiced but are really prejudiced.

这意味着我刚刚对在场的所有白人说他们都有偏见，对吧？

So that means I just called all the white people in the audience prejudiced, okay?

这并不是赢得观众好感的好方法，而且从科学角度来看也不是好方法，因为你并不想谴责白人、黑人或任何群体的人，而我们当时正是在这么做。

Is not a good way to endear yourself to your audience, but also not a great way to do science because you don't want to condemn races of people who are white or black or any group, and that's what we were doing.

因此，萨姆和我都各自独立开展了一些项目，试图通过认知测量来研究这个问题。

And so Sam and I both sort of independently did some projects where we tried to look at cognitive measures.

什么想法会最快浮现出来？

What comes to mind most quickly?

他使用了一种特定的技术，而我则开发了另一种技术。

He used one particular technique, I developed another technique.

我们开始进行研究，早在20世纪80年代初就发现，许多人——尤其是大多数白人——都存在这种分裂：他们在有意识层面表达出非偏见的态度，但我们的其他测量手段却能揭示出这些内隐偏见、刻板印象和偏见，而且其中一些内隐偏见比人们自己陈述的内容更能预测行为。

We began to do studies that showed back in the early 80s that many people have this, most people have this dissociation, most white people, where they appear non prejudiced in what they say very consciously, but we could see the evidence of these implicit biases, prejudice, stereotypes in our other measures, and some of those implicit biases were predicting behavior better than what people said.

当然，这后来发展成了对内隐联想测验（IAT）的研究，虽然这项工作并非我们做的，而是格林沃尔德和博纳吉完成的，它真正成为了测量内隐偏见的黄金标准。

That of course evolved into the work on the IAT which we didn't do, Greenwald and Bonagi did, and that really became the gold standard of measuring the implicit biases.

所以，这就是它逐渐演变的方式。

So that's kind of how this sort of evolved.

这就像是撞上了一些你不太理解的东西，退后一步，试着猜测接下来会发生什么，然后倾听文献中的讨论，尝试借鉴他人的方法，从一个不同的角度来探索问题。

It's kind of like bumping into things that you don't understand, taking a step back, trying to guess what would happen next, and then listening to what was going on in the literature and trying to adapt what other people were doing to sort of come at something from a different direction.

很有趣，我觉得你是一个很快采纳内隐联想测验的人，当内隐偏见这个概念出现后，随之而来的是研究的涓涓细流，最终演变成研究的爆炸式增长。

It's funny, I think of you as someone who was quick to adopt the implicit association test to sort of like the implicit bias arises, and then there's like a, you know, a trickle of research that becomes an explosion of research.

而其中一些最早的研究，正是你参与的。

And some of those earliest studies are ones that you were involved in.

我现在意识到，哦，原来是因为你早就已经在做类似的事情了。

And I realized now that, like, oh, well, it's because you were already kind of doing it.

它只是为你提供了一个机会，让你将它融入你早已在构建的研究工作中。

It just became an opportunity for you to pull it into the work that you were already building.

所以，我很好奇想听听你的看法。

And so it was sort of it must have been like I'm I'm curious to get your take.

当你看到这个测量工具出现时，是否立刻意识到：天啊，这就是我们一直在讨论的东西？还是花了些时间才意识到，原来我们是独立地得出了同样的想法？

Like, when you saw this measure emerge, did it click immediately like, oh my god, that's the thing, that's the thing we've been talking about, or did it take some time to realize like, oh, actually we're arriving at the same idea independently?

是的，我的意思是，在早期，我会说，在IAT出现之前，我参加过一个马佐·巴纳吉也在的小型会议。

Yeah, I mean, some of it is, you know, in the early days, I would say, you know, pre IAT I had attended a small conference that Mazzou Banaji was there.

我曾与托尼·格林沃尔德交谈过，所以对他们正在开发的东西并不感到惊讶。

I had talked to Tony Greenwald, and so I wasn't surprised with what they were developing.

他们告诉我他们在做什么，而这些和我正在做的并不无关。

They were telling me what they were developing and it wasn't unrelated to what I was doing.

只是比我的方法更好。

It was just better than what I was doing.

因此，我更快地采纳了它，因为我本来就认同他们所表达的观点，同时也相信他们拥有更可靠的、更稳定的测量工具。

So I was a quicker adopter for that because I already sort of believed the point that they were making, but I also believed that they had a much better measure in terms of something more reliable, something more stable.

我知道IAT受到了很多批评，但它能预测行为。

And I know the IAT has received a lot of criticism, but it predicts behavior.

而这正是我想要的。

And that's what I wanted.

对我来说，学术界并不是一场有输赢的竞争。

It to me is the idea that in academia it's not a race where you have winners and losers.

这确实是一个团队合作的成果。

It really is a team effort in terms of what comes out of it.

我始终与他们保持着良好的关系，从未感到竞争，他们也从未对我表现出任何竞争情绪。

And I've always had a good relationship and never felt competitive and they never expressed any kind of feeling of competitive with me.

这就是社会心理学的可贵之处，它不是零和游戏，不是一个人赢另一个人就输。

That's the nice thing about social psychology, it's not zero sum, where one person wins and the other person loses.

他们提出了一个很棒的想法，而我可以借用它。

They come up with a great idea and I get to borrow it.

另外，这一演变过程帮助我厘清了关于回避性种族主义的一些问题，我过去有时很难理解这一点。我的理解是，在早期，一些研究基本上表明，如果一个人公开表达无偏见的态度，却在决策中仍表现出偏见，这就是回避性种族主义。

Also, so the evolution of this helps clarify for me one of the things about the aversive racism, kind of the history of it that I've sometimes had a hard have had a hard time grappling with, which is that it so my understanding is that in the earlier days, some of the studies were essentially saying that, like, if someone expresses explicitly and openly, like a non prejudiced attitude, they could go on to to show bias in their decision making, and that's aversive racism.

这仅仅是一种现象。

Like, that's just a phenomenon.

而随着这些测量工具的发展，概念变得更加精细：回避性种族主义并非心理学的普遍真理，而是指那些公开声称无偏见、却仍存在可测量的自动负面反应的人群所表现出的特征。

Whereas with the development of these measures, it gets more sophisticated where you're saying, well, aversive racism is really like it's not a universal truth of psychology, but it is what we would expect among people who both openly say they're nonprejudiced, but harbor measurable automatic negative reactions.

这样理解对吗？

Does that make sense?

所以它最初是一个比较宽泛的概览，后来变得更为细致。

So it sort of began as a more kind of broad brush picture and became a little bit more of a nuanced picture.

对吗？

Is that right?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我想再补充两点来说明这种细致性。

And I would say two other things to the nuance.

其中之一是我认为现在已经得到充分证实的观点：这种负面成分根植于正常的心理过程。

One is the argument that I think is pretty well established now is that it's rooted in normal, the negative component is rooted in normal processes.

它是社会化过程的结果，是内群体与外群体的偏见。

It's socialization processes, it's in group out group bias.

这并不是好人与坏人的区别，而是人性的体现。

It's not about good people and bad people, it's about being human.

另一方面，我想回到你刚才说的，并将你的观点与我的观点结合起来：也有可能存在一些在内隐和外显层面都毫无偏见的白人。

And the other part of this, I want to come back to and just merge what you said with what I said, it's also possible that there are white people who are not prejudiced implicitly and explicitly.

这一点很重要，需要加以承认。

And that's important to acknowledge.

这也是一个重要的研究问题，因为你想要探究人们如何能做到无偏见。

And it's important research question because you want to ask how can people be non prejudiced?

那么，可以从研究那些无偏见的人开始。

Well, start with by looking at the people who are non prejudiced.

我们发现，那些内隐和外显偏见都较低的人，歧视行为也较少。

And we found that those who are low in implicit, low in explicit, were also low in discriminatory behavior as well.

因此，这真正完善了整个图景。

So it really completes the picture.

再次强调，令人兴奋的是，人们总在谈论捍卫自己的理论。

Again, that's the exciting thing is that people talk about defending their theories.

我不想去捍卫任何理论。

I don't want to defend a theory.

我总是告诉我的学生，我的参与者比我更聪明，所以我们应该倾听他们。

And I would always tell my students that my participants are smarter than me so we should listen to them.

这确实带来了你刚才提到的那种演变，从一种普遍而直白的方法，转变为更加细致入微、我认为也更加有效的方式。

And it really produces that kind of evolution that you were just talking about from this kind of universal approach and a very blunt approach to something that's much more nuanced and I think much more productive.

另一个值得强调的细微差别是，回避性种族主义是否在任何情况下都预示着偏见行为？

The other nuance too that might be worth emphasizing is, is it the case that aversive racism just predicts biased behavior no matter what?

还是说，在某些情况下，这种内隐与外显态度的双重性会在人们的决策中显现，而在其他时候，即使人们持有这些内隐偏见，也不一定会表现出歧视？

Or are there certain ways in which this kind of duality of implicit and explicit attitudes shows up in people's decisions where other times people might not actually be expected to discriminate, even if they harbor these implicit biases?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这是个非常好的问题。

I mean, that that's a really good question.

我们通常这样理解：我们有内隐偏见，也有外显偏见，同时我们也有外显的无偏见方式。

The way I you know, we try to conceive of this is that, you know, we have implicit biases and we have explicit biases, And we have explicit ways of being non prejudiced too.

但这并不是无意识或内隐系统。

But it's not the unconscious or the implicit system.

内隐并不一定意味着无意识，但它更自动化。

And implicit doesn't necessarily mean unconscious, but it's much more automatic.

让我解释一下，内隐偏见之所以产生，是因为它们是过度习得的思维习惯。

Let me just explain this for a minute, that implicit biases occur because they're over learned habits of mind.

这与自我和本我等其他概念无关，而是一种节能机制，使我们能够快速做出决策，从进化角度来看，这非常重要——如果我们必须仔细思考每一个决定，早就被吃掉了。

It's not about the ego and the id and all these other things, it's an energy saving device that allows us to make decisions quickly, which is important from an evolutionary point of view that if we have to contemplate every decision, we would have been eaten a long time ago basically.

但我们所有人都发展出了各种非常实用的内隐思维方式。

But we all develop all sorts of implicit ways of thinking that are very functional.

例如，如果你每天走同一条路去上班，有没有过这样的经历：突然间发现自己已经停好了车？

So, for example, if you drive the same route to work every single day, have you ever had the experience that all of sudden you find yourself in the parking lot?

那天你实际上是在无意识地开车。

And what you had been doing that day was driving implicitly.

这是一种过度习得的行为。

It was over learned.

你每天都走这条路，但这并不意味着如果有人突然冲出来，你还会继续开车。

You make this route every single day, but it doesn't mean that if something runs out in front, you're going to keep driving.

它的好处是让你在开车时能腾出精力，有意识地思考当天其他需要处理的事情：比如演讲、与人会面。

And what it did was it freed you up to think all the way to work about all the other things that you needed to think about consciously that day: a presentation, meeting with somebody.

所以我们有两个系统，它们并不冲突，而是协同工作。

So we have these two systems that are not in conflict, they work together.

这意味着有时其中一个系统会优先于另一个。

And what that means is sometimes one is going to take precedence over another.

我们假设并反复发现，当人们处于是非明确、适当行为清晰定义的情境中时，显性系统会进行评估，并决定你的行为方式。

And what we hypothesized and we found over and over again is when you put people in a situation where right and wrong is clearly defined, where appropriate behavior is clearly defined, then the explicit system assesses that and that's how you behave.

因此，你会去做你认为正确的事，因为你清楚什么是正确的。

So you go and do what you think is the right thing because you know what the right thing is.

它会占据主导地位。

It takes precedence.

但如果你将人们置于是非不明确或情境复杂、没有明确正确答案的情况下，隐性系统就会引导你迈出第一步，并影响你关注什么、注意什么以及如何解读。

But if you put people in a situation where right and wrong is not clearly defined or situations are complex where there's no right answer, then the implicit system gives you the first step in a particular direction and it affects what you look at, what you attend to, what you interpret.

让我举一个快速的研究例子。

Let me just give you one quick research example.

我们会给参与者提供关于求职申请者的信息。

We would give participants information about an applicant for a job.

他们认为自己的意见会影响招聘结果。

They believed that their input would affect the job outcome.

申请者要么是黑人，要么是白人，在某些情况下，申请者的资质非常出色。

The applicant was either black or white, and in some cases the applicant had impeccably strong credentials.

在其他情况下，他们的资质好坏参半，但根据我们之前的预测试，他们仍然足以胜任这份工作。

In other cases they had a mixture of good credentials and bad credentials, but arguably they were good enough for the job based on pretesting that we did.

当申请者资质非常优秀时，对黑人申请者没有歧视。

When the applicant had impeccably good credentials, no discrimination against the Black applicant.

在这种情况下，内隐偏见没有任何影响。

Implicit biases don't have any effect there.

但当申请者的资质参差不齐时，我们发现对黑人申请者的偏见相对于白人申请者更为明显。

But when the applicant has mixed credentials, what we found is there was a bias against the Black relative to the White applicant.

其他研究者，如宋莲，也发现内隐偏见更强的人更倾向于降低少数族裔候选人的评分。

And other researchers, Lian Song Heng, had showed that more implicitly biased people would tend to take the minority candidate and rate them lower.

在这种模糊的情况下，人们会依赖直觉行事。

And what happens there is when it's ambiguous, you go with your gut feeling.

这种直觉反映了你的隐性偏见。

That gut feeling is reflective of your implicit biases.

因此，人们，尤其是那些隐性偏见更强的人，当申请人属于多数群体时，会关注并重视他们简历中的优点。

And so what people would do is, particularly those more implicitly biased, is when the applicant was a majority group member, you would attend to and pay attention to the good aspects of their CV.

而当申请人属于少数群体且参与者是白人时，人们则更关注候选人的缺点。

And when the applicant was a minority and the participant was white, then people would be attending more to the weaknesses of the candidate.

因此，当你问他们为什么推荐某位候选人而非另一位时，他们会拿出具体的资格依据：白人候选人的优点，黑人候选人的缺点。

And so when you ask them why did they recommend hiring one candidate over another, they had credentials to point to: good for the white, bad for the black.

于是他们会说，这与种族无关，完全取决于资格。

And so they would say it had nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with credentials.

这就引出了隐性偏见的问题。

And so that brings the sort of implicit biases.

情境依赖性是社会心理学的核心，但这是一个非常可预测的结果：当人们清楚该做什么时，好人会做对的事；但在复杂的世界中，总会有很多漏洞。

It depends on the situation, is the meat and potatoes of social psychology, but it's a very predictable kind of result where good people will do good things when they know what to do, but in a world that's complex, there's a lot of leakage.

而且人们可以说：‘我可以向你证明这没有种族歧视，你看这个人做了这么多出色的事情。’

And in a way that people can sort of say, Well, can prove to you this wasn't racially biased because look at all of these great things this person did.

我觉得回避性种族主义在这方面很狡猾，因为它为偏见提供了一个掩护理由。

It strikes me that aversive racism is sneaky in this way, in that it provides a cover story for bias.

它某种程度上给了人们一个借口，让他们能够将自己做出的决定合理化为非偏见的。

It sort of, like, gives people this out where the it it's a process by which people can justify the decisions they make as non biased.

是的。

Yeah.

说得完全正确。

And that's exactly right.

我的意思是，这很好地总结了这一点，因为确实存在一些你可以合理指出的依据，但这并不意味着结果就是公平的。

I mean, that's a great summary of it because it, you know, there is something you can point to legitimately, but it still doesn't mean that it's even.

事实上，即使你的偏见很微妙，它仍然是偏见，并且会产生负面结果。

The reality is even if your bias is subtle, it's a bias and it has negative outcomes.

让我再告诉你一个在文献中不那么明显、但我们发现的负面结果：回避性种族主义的一个危险在于我所说的文化误解与不信任。

And let me just tell you one other negative outcome that doesn't jump out in the literature, but it's one that we find, is that one of the dangers of aversive racism is what I would say cultural miscommunication and mistrust.

就拿我刚才提到的那项研究来说吧。

So let's just take the study I just mentioned to you.

如果你是负责招聘的人，看到两名候选人，一名白人和一名黑人，你的偏见会让你以不同的方式看待这两名候选人及其资历。

If you are the person doing the hiring, you see two candidates, a white and a black candidate, and your biases lead you to look differently at the two candidates and their credentials.

所以，作为第一位面试官，你面试了这个人，然后说：‘我们真正需要的是有科学学位的人，而不是人文学科背景的人。’

So what happens is you're the first interviewer, you interview this person and you say, Yeah, what we're really looking for is someone who has a science degree, not a humanities degree.

而这显然指的是白人候选人而非黑人候选人。

And of course that's the white person over the black person.

你离开这个情境时，内心毫无愧疚。

You walk away from that situation with a clear conscience.

种族根本没起任何作用。

Race had nothing to do with it.

现在，这名黑人候选人去参加另一场面试，遇到了另一位白人面试官，这位面试官说：‘你确实很不错，但我们想找的是有销售经验的人，而不是没有经验的人。’

Now that person goes for another interview, that black person goes for another interview, they get another white interviewer, and that white interviewer says, you know, you're really very good, but we're looking for someone with sales experience, not someone who doesn't have it.

我很抱歉，你很优秀，但我们决定录用其他人。

And I'm sorry you're very good, but we're hiring somebody else.

然后，这名黑人候选人去见第三位面试官，这位面试官又提出了另一个——正如你所说——完全不同的合理化理由。

And then that black person goes to a third interviewer who comes up with another, as you said, rationalization, which can be totally different.

于是，三位白人面试官都离开时认为这里没有偏见，当然我自己也不偏见，但从黑人候选人的角度来看，是什么将这三次经历联系在一起的呢？

So now three white interviewers walk away saying there's no bias here and certainly I'm not as biased, but from the perspective of the black candidate, what ties those three experiences together?

是种族。

It's race.

不是经验，不是技术学位，也不是第三个解释的任何内容。

It's not experience, it's not a technical degree, it's not whatever the third explanation was.

因此，白人往往看不到种族主义的存在，因为这不在我们的经验范围之内。

And so white people tend to see racism nowhere because it's not in our realm of experience.

但有色人种一再目睹这种偏见，他们从完全不同的视角看待它，因为他们没得到这三份工作的最合理、最简洁、最合乎逻辑的原因，不是任何一个单独的解释，而是种族。

But people of color that see this bias over and over again, they see it from a very different perspective because the most logical, parsimonious, reasonable explanation for why they didn't get these three jobs is not any of the individual explanation, it's race.

这就导致了我所说的种族不信任。

And so that leads to this, what I would call racial distrust.

我从中学到的一件事是，当我与白人互动时，因为我自己是白人，我通常默认他们信任我。

And I'll just say one of the things I learned from this is when I interact with a white person, because I'm white, I typically assume my default is they trust me.

但当我与有色人种互动时，我了解到他们并不像我看待自己那样看待我，他们看到的是一个白人。

When I interact with a person of color, what I've learned is they don't see me as the way I see me, they see me as a white person.

他们所有的经历都应该导致不信任。

And all the experiences that they've had should lead to distrust.

因此，我假设与我互动的人并不信任我。

And so, what I assume is that the person I'm interacting with doesn't trust me.

我接受这一点，我理解原因，但这意味着我在互动中的初始行为应该是建立信任，或至少承认你可能不信任我。

I accept that, I understand why, but that means my initial activities in our interaction is trust building or at least acknowledgment that you may not trust me.

因此，我在与人互动时不能采取色盲的方式，因为肤色很重要。

And so I can't be color blind in my approach in the way I interact with people because color matters.

这是一个非常有用的见解。

That is a very useful insight.

我本来想问你的一件事是，这项研究让你对自己有了什么认识？而你直接点出了这一点，这很棒。

Was going to one of my things I was going to ask you was like what have you learned about yourself from this program of research And you went right for it, which is great.

不过我最后一个关于回避性种族主义的问题是：为什么它被称为这样？

My last question about aversive racism though is why is it called that?

我总是对这个术语感到困惑。

I always struggle with the terminology.

那么，这里所谓的‘厌恶’指的是什么？

So what is it that is aversive here?

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

实际上，这个词源于多年前萨姆提到的某个人所使用的术语，后来萨姆采纳了它。

It actually came out of a term that somebody else that Sam mentioned years ago and Sam adopted.

因此，这个定义背后有一种神话般的解释。

And so the definition has sort of, there's a mythology behind what it really means.

但我会说，它的一个方面是，这是一种那些拥有它的人会感到厌恶的种族主义，因为它与我们的自我形象和价值观严重不符，因此当我们意识到自己有这种倾向时，会感到强烈的不适。

But I would say that there's, one of the aspects of it is that it's a kind of racism that those who have it would find aversive because it's so inconsistent with our self image, it's inconsistent with our values, and so it's a kind of racism that we experience aggressively when we sense that we have it.

萨姆的另一个观点——理论总是不断演进的——是，萨姆早期关于厌恶性种族主义的研究表明，当把白人置于规范明确的情境中时，就不会出现歧视。

The other version of this that Sam, again, theories always evolve, but one of the things that Sam's early work on aversive racism showed is that when you put white people in a situation where the norms were clear, There would be no discrimination.

但许多白人会选择完全回避黑人，这样他们就永远不会陷入这种困难的境地。

But what many white people would choose would be to avoid black people entirely because then they never get put in that difficult situation.

因此，他们会回避，通常会认为与黑人的互动令人厌恶，因而选择避开。

And so they avoid, and they typically would find interactions with black people aversive and therefore would avoid them.

所以，大概下周我们又会想出另一个。

So, and probably next week we'll come up with another.

这可能是换个话题，谈谈最近在应用这些见解方面的研究的好时机，我认为是同样的洞见，但应用于特定领域。

This might be a good time to shift gears and talk about some of the more recent work on applying, I think the same kind of insights, but in a particular domain.

近年来，你在研究这些种族偏见如何在医疗环境中发挥作用方面做了大量工作。

So you've done a lot of work in recent years on how these kinds of racial biases can play out in a medical context.

那么，这种视角或兴趣是从何而来的？为什么这个领域特别适合研究这些动态？

And so where did that perspective, where did that interest come from and why is this a domain where it might be especially useful to study these dynamics?

是的，这种兴趣，again，我的许多兴趣都是悄然出现的。

Yeah, the interest, again, so many of my interests just sort of snuck up on me.

这其中有很多偶然性。

And there's a lot of chance in it.

大约在2000年，我参与了国家科学院和医学研究所关于医疗差异的报告。

Back in around 2000, I got involved with the National Academy of Sciences and Institute of Medicine report on disparities in healthcare.

在这个小组中，有人邀请了我，我想我是个自尊心很低的人。

And on this panel, someone invited me and I think I'm a person of low self esteem.

当有人邀请我时，我会感到受宠若惊。

When someone invites me I get flatted.

哦，国家科学院，我去！

Oh, National Academy of Science, I'll go!

但事实上，这对我来说是一次非常转变性的经历，因为我学到了很多关于医学的知识，而且我也在书中贡献了很多。

But actually it was a very transformative experience for me because I got to learn a lot about medicine, but it was also transformative is I got to contribute a lot in the book.

当时我是唯一一个谈论内隐偏见的社会心理学家，这份报告多年来获得了大量关注，并将内隐偏见的概念引入了医学领域。

I was the only social psychologist talking about implicit bias at the time and that report has gotten a lot of attention over the years and introduced the idea of implicit bias in medicine.

这一点之所以如此重要，是因为在关联性上，人们选择从医是因为他们想帮助他人。

And the reason that's so important is, in terms of the linkage, is that people go into medicine because they want to help people.

人们进入医学领域并接受良好教育，而受过良好教育的人往往持自由主义立场，信奉平等价值观。

People go into medicine and become very well educated, and well educated people tend to be liberal and hold values of equality.

但与此同时，我们看到的是，在整个历史中，健康领域存在着巨大而持久的种族差异。

But at the same time, what we see is big and persistent racial disparities in health across our history.

婴儿死亡率在种族差异方面的现状，与二十年前、三十年前、五十年前相比，几乎没有改善。

Infant mortality rate's about as bad now in terms of disparities as it was twenty years ago, thirty years ago, fifty years ago.

那么，你如何调和好人与这些不平等的结果呢？

So how can you reconcile good people and these disparate outcomes?

许多人想要责怪受害者。

Many people wanted to blame the victim.

哦，这是因为人们没有做健康的事情。

Oh, it's because of people not doing healthy things.

但我们现在也开始看到，有色人种对医疗系统存在高度的不信任。我几分钟前提到过不信任，但情况确实如此。

But what we're also beginning to see is there seem to beI I talked about mistrust a few minutes ago, but there was high levels of medical mistrust of people of color.

为什么？

Why?

同样，人们会说，看看历史吧。

Again, people would say, Oh, look at historically.

历史上曾对黑人进行过这些实验。

There were these experiments on black people.

这就是原因。

That's the reason.

但还有一些有趣的证据表明，例如，他们采访了首次去看医生的患者。

But there was also some interesting evidence that showed, for example, that they interviewed patients going to see a doctor for the first time.

患者在进入诊室见医生之前填写了一份关于他们对医生信任程度的问卷，离开时又填写了一次。

The patient filled out a questionnaire about how much they trusted the doctor before they went into the room and met the doctor, and then they filled it out again as they were leaving.

他们发现，白人患者在见医生之前就非常信任医生，见完之后依然非常信任。

And what they found was that white people tend to trust their doctor a lot before they meet him and trust him a lot after they meet him.

黑人患者在见医生之前对医生的信任度较低一些，但见完医生后，信任度进一步下降。

Black people trusted the doctor before they met them, not quite as much, but they trusted the doctor less after they met the doctor.

这与历史无关，不是直接关于历史，而是在这种互动中发生了某种削弱信任的事情。

So that's nothing about history, know, not directly about history, but something is going on in that interaction that's undermining it.

因此，我对此产生了兴趣，并就此撰写了一些论文；后来，我的好友兼合作者路·彭纳从南佛罗里达大学的心理学系调到了癌症研究所，和他妻子一起，而研究与友谊往往相伴而行，研究合作也是如此，这让我得以接触研究人群和资源。

And so, you know, I had this interest and wrote some papers on it and then Lou Penner, my good friend and collaborator, he moved from University of South Florida from a psychology department to a cancer institute with his wife and Research and friendships tend to go together, research collaborations, and so it gave me access to research populations and resources.

路在我们大部分研究中发挥了主导作用，我们将他转变为厌恶型种族主义的研究对象。

Lou took a great lead in most of the research where we converted him to aversive racism.

让我顺便说一句，他待会儿会问我这个问题。

And let me just say, he's going to ask me about this.