超级灵魂特辑：玛雅·安杰卢博士，第2部分：她收到的最佳建议

我是奥普拉·温弗瑞。欢迎收听《超级灵魂对话》播客。我相信你能给予自己最珍贵的礼物之一就是时间，花时间去更全然地活在当下。你通往更受启发、与周围更深层世界相连的旅程，此刻就开始了。上一次，玛雅·安杰卢和我一起回忆了她非凡人生旅程中一些最具意义的时刻。

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Last time Maya Angelou and I reminisced about some of the most meaningful moments of her extraordinary journey.

她还坦诚而深情地谈到了她的母亲薇薇安·巴克斯特，一位魅力四射、充满激情的女性。她们之间深厚的精神联系是玛雅最新著作的催化剂，书名为《妈妈与我与妈妈》。85岁的玛雅·安杰卢如今已是曾祖母，依然风靡全球。除了写作和排满的演讲行程外，她通过活跃且富有启发性的推特账号，始终保持着与时俱进、时尚前卫的形象。

She also spoke candidly and lovingly about her mother, Vivian Baxter, a charismatic, fierce dynamo of a woman. Their deep spiritual connection is the catalyst for Maya's latest book. It's called Mom and Me and Mom. At 85, Maya Angelou is now a great grandmother and is still taking the world by storm. In addition to her writing and full schedule of speaking engagements, she remained ever relevant, hip, and up to date with her active and enlightening presence on Twitter.

我是众多读者中的一员，我们都曾向玛雅·安杰卢寻求慰藉之词和勇气。我们汲取她的智慧，惊叹她的毅力，并沉浸在她对生活纯粹而富有感染力的喜悦之中。

I'm one of legions of readers who've looked to Maya Angelou for comforting words, for courage. We soak up her wisdom, we marvel at her stamina, and bask in the pure contagious joy she takes in living.

现在，我们坐在这里，你已经85岁了。

Now, as we sit here, you're 85.

是的，女士。

Yes, ma'am.

对，我们85岁了。关于八十岁，你有什么想说的？

Yes, as we're 80 five. What can you say about the eighties?

哦，天哪。如果可以，一定要活到这个岁数。

Oh my goodness. Do it if you can.

如果可以

Do it if

就活到八十岁。如果有选择，就选择八十岁。

you can. If you have a choice, choose the eighties.

哦，天哪。

Oh, my goodness.

我是认真的。如果你一直在照顾自己，你知道的，凡事都要适度。

I mean it. If you've been caring for yourself, you know, moderation in all things.

是的。

Yes.

甚至适度本身也要适度。别过度追求适度。你做到了但那只是一条推文。

And even moderation in moderation. Don't get too much moderation. You had but That's a tweet.

连适度都不要太过。

Don't even get too much moderation.

没错。

That's right.

适度中的适度。

Moderation in moderation.

正是如此。是的。但当你步入八十多岁，发现自己看起来还不错，人们依然会打招呼说你好啊你好。你会想，能活到这个岁数真开心。是的。

That's right. Yes. But when you get into your eighties and you find that you're still looking kinda alright, and people still say, Hello, hello, hello. You think, I'm glad I got this far. Yes.

跟我分享一下你对衰老的领悟吧。因为我觉得这正是我从你身上学到的，你一直是我优雅老去的绝佳榜样

Tell me what you've learned yourself about the aging part. You know, because I think I learned this from you, and what a wonderful mentor you have been for me for aging with grace

怀着感恩、热忱之心全然接纳这个过程。

and appreciation and heart and just embracing it.

我看到周围很多女性，早至四十多岁甚至三十多岁就开始打肉毒杆菌，试图改变自己，拼命抵抗衰老。而我总是像你说的那样看待这件事——天啊，无论什么年纪，我都会想起那些没能活到这个岁数的人。59岁的此刻，我总想起那些没能活到50岁的人。你曾经为此焦虑过吗？有没有过'难以置信'的时刻

And I see so many women around me who, even as early as their 40s and some even in their 30s, they're trying to, you know, Botox themselves and, you know, change themselves and fighting it, just fighting it, fighting it all the way. And I always look at it as just as you were saying, My God, whatever age, I think about the people who didn't make it. I know. As I sit here at 59, I think about all the people who didn't make it to And 50 so, were you ever anxious about it? Were you ever, Oh, I can't believe

我要40岁了。不敢相信我已经50岁了。我甚至不记得曾为此焦虑过，即使在我很年轻的时候。我的意思是，我一直渴望达到那个年龄。就我记忆所及，我曾想过如果能活到20岁

I'm turning 40. Can't believe I'm 50. I can't remember ever being anxious about it, even when I was very young. I mean, I've always wanted to reach that other age. As far as I can remember, I thought that if I could live to be 20

-是的。

-Yes.

-你知道，那将会是——而且真的

-You know, it was gonna be -And really

然后是25岁。

then 25.

-接着是30岁？天哪，我简直要，那是个巨大的惊喜。每一个年龄，我都心怀感激。我多年前就跟你聊过这个。-是的。

-And then 30? My goodness, I was just gonna, it was a knockout. Every age, I've been grateful. I talked to you about this years ago. -Yes.

-就是心存感激。-是的。感激，一直如此。早上起床，感谢你，主啊。是的。

-Is being grateful. -Yes. Grateful, just constantly. Get up in the morning, thank you, Lord. Yes.

感谢这一天。感谢从那扇窗户照进来的光。谢谢你。感谢我还在呼吸。谢谢你。

Thank you for this day. Thank you for the light coming through that window. Thank you. Thank you that I'm breathing. Thank you.

感谢一切。感谢那个告诉我得到工作的电话。甚至感谢那个通知我不再需要我的电话。谢谢你，因为我知道你为我准备了更好的。是的。安排好了。是的。

Thank you for everything. Thank you for the phone call that told me that I have the job. Thank you even for the phone call that told me I not want it anymore. Thank you because I know you have something better for me Yes. Lined Yeah.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

是啊。我人生中的一个重要时刻，是在印第安纳州拥有农场的时候。你还记得

Yeah. One of my life seminal moments, I was had the farm in Indiana. You remember

农场？是的，我有印象。

the farm? Yes, I do.

当时我在浴室里，因为家里有客人，我关上门坐在马桶盖上，用浴室电话打给你，歇斯底里地哭着说些什么。具体内容我不记得了。我本期待着你张开双臂给予我开放、共情、充满爱意的拥抱，你却对我说：别这样。

And I was in the bathroom because there were people at the house, and I closed the door, and I was sitting on the toilet seat and on the bathroom phone calling you, and I was crying hysterically about something. I don't remember what it was. And you said, you know, I was calling for your open, empathetic, loving embrace, and you said, Stop it.

我明白了。

I see.

立刻停止。我要你说谢谢。我当时在说：但你根本没在听。你没听见我说的话。而你坚持说：不，我就要听这句话。

Stop it right now. I want you to say thank you. I was saying, But you didn't hear me. You didn't hear what I said. And you said, No, I want to say it.

我要亲耳听你说。于是我哽咽着说：谢谢。可我为什么要道谢？你回答：因为你知道上帝已在云中为你架起彩虹。

I want to hear you say it. And I went, Thank you. What am I saying thank you for? And you said, Because you know God has put a rainbow in the clouds.

-就是这样。-没错。-正是

-That's it. -Yeah. -That's

这样。-那一刻改变了我的人生。

it. -That was life changing for me.

是的，亲爱的。是的，亲爱的。

Yes, darling. Yes, darling.

所以无论遭遇什么打击。都要说谢谢。谢谢。

So, when whatever it is hits. Thank you. Thank you.

因为我知道更好的安排正在路上。你解雇我是你的选择，对我却是转机。亲爱的，我将获得的机遇会让你心生向往。亲爱的。是的，亲爱的。

Because I know something better is on the road for me. So you fired me good on you and very good on me. Because what I'm going to get, darling, you would long for. Darling. Yes, darling.

那么，你是从哪里得到这个的？你是怎么知道这件事的？

So, where did you get that? Where did you know that?

从很久以前。从我祖母那里，我父亲的母亲，她抚养我长大。还有从薇薇安·巴克斯特那里。

From a long way. From my grandmother, my father's mother, who raised me. And from Vivian Baxter.

玛雅形容她的母亲薇薇安是个充满活力的女性，一个性格鲜明、存在感极强的女人，但玛雅直到十几岁才真正了解她。由于无法独自抚养两个年幼的孩子，薇薇安·巴克斯特将玛雅和她哥哥贝利送到阿肯色州乡村与祖母同住。玛雅13岁时，她重新回到母亲身边，在旧金山生活。尽管她们花了一些时间才彼此了解，但显然玛雅和她称之为‘夫人’的女人之间有着深厚的爱。

Maya describes her mother Vivian as a dynamic woman, a spitfire with a larger than life presence, but she was someone Maya didn't really get to know until her teens. Unable to raise two young children on her own, Vivian Baxter had sent Maya and her brother Bailey to live with their grandmother in rural Arkansas. When Maya turned 13, she rejoined her mother in San Francisco. And while it took some time for them to get to know each other, it was obvious there was a lot of love between Maya and the woman she called Lady.

薇薇安·巴克斯特，她爱我。是的。并且鼓励我在加利福尼亚州的斯托克顿培养勇气，那是她生活并去世的地方。

Vivian Baxter, she loved me. Yes. And encouraged me to develop courage In Stockton, California, where she lived and died.

是的。

Yes.

有一个公园，

There's a Park Park,

我看到那个了。

I saw that.

以

Named for

她的名字命名。是的。

her. Yes.

因为她对每个人都那么好。白人、黑人、说西班牙语的、印第安人、亚洲人。她就是那样的人。所以加利福尼亚州斯托克顿最新的公园被命名为‘巴克斯特夫人’。我喜欢这个名字。

Because she was that kind to everybody. Whites, Blacks, Spanish speaking, Native American, Asian. She was that kind. And so the newest park in Stockton, California is called Lady Baxter. Love that.

我特别喜欢这一点。那是位于城镇的一端。而在城镇的另一端，是玛雅·安杰卢图书馆。这很神奇，因为这座图书馆之所以以我命名，全因薇薇安·巴克斯特。

I love that. And so that's on one end of town. And a library on the other end of town is the Maya Angelou. It's amazing because the library was named for me because of Vivienne Baxter.

是你母亲铺就了这条路。

Your mother paved that way.

没错。

That's right.

她铺就了这条路，我们上周还在讨论这个。

She paved that way, which we were talking about last week.

确实。每当我敢于做一件好事时，我都是以我母亲的名义在做。

That's right. Every time I dare to do a good thing, I'm doing it in the name of my mother.

你说这本书是为了探讨爱如何治愈伤痛。是的。并帮助人攀登至不可能的高度，从无法估量的死亡中重生。

You say that this book has been written to examine some of the ways that love heals Yeah. And helps a person to climb to impossible heights and rise from immeasurable deaths.

这是真的。是的。千真万确。爱能做到这些。

It's true. Yes. It's true. Love does that.

爱能做到这些。

Love does that.

爱能解放心灵。而来自父母的爱，我指的是母亲或父亲的爱。不是多愁善感，不是溺爱，而是真正的爱。这种爱给你足够的勇气，让你能对某人说，别那样做，宝贝。而对方会明白你不是在说教。

Love liberates. And love from a parent, and I mean from a mother or a father, love. Not sentimentality, not much, but true love. Love that gives you enough courage that you can say to somebody, Don't do that, baby. And the person will know you're not preaching.

是的。你是在教导。

Yes. You're teaching.

玛雅·安杰卢16岁怀孕时，与母亲建立了更深厚的联系。她称独子盖伊的诞生是她生命中最伟大的恩赐。当玛雅告诉薇薇安·巴克斯特她将要有孩子时，母亲并未动怒，反而欢迎这个男婴加入她们的生活，甚至在这位年轻母亲开始独立生活时给予指导。

Maya Angelou developed an even deeper connection to her mother when she became pregnant at 16. She calls the birth of her only child, her son Guy, the greatest blessing of her life. When Maya told Vivian Baxter she was gonna have a baby, her mother didn't get angry. Instead, she welcomed the baby boy into their lives, even guiding the young mother as she struck out on her own.

盖伊才两个月大时你就搬出了家，我很喜欢你离家时母亲对你说的话。她说：'好吧，你走吧，但记住：跨过我家门槛时，你已带着从阿肯色州祖母和我这里学到的教养长大。你懂得分辨是非对错。'

When Guy was only two months old, you moved out of the house, and I love the story about what your mother said to you as you were leaving. Yes. She says, All right, you go, but remember this. When you cross my doorstep, you have already been raised with what you've learned from your grandmother in Arkansas and what you've learned from me. You know the difference between right and wrong.

'要做正确的事，别让任何人改变你受过的教养。要知道在爱情、友情、社会和工作关系中总要做出调整，但别让任何人动摇你的信念。还有记住：你随时可以回家。'

Do right and don't let anybody raise you from the way you've been raised. Know you will always have to make adjustments in love relationships, in friends, in society, in work, but don't let anybody change your mind. And then remember this: You can always come home.

她确实这么做了。每当我带着这个努力抚养的小宝宝，边工作边唱歌跳舞却被生活击垮时，我就会回到薇薇安·巴克斯特身边。她会表现得像迎来了天大的喜事，打电话告诉朋友们。

She did. She did. And she, whenever I'd go home, the world would throw me flat on my face with this little baby I'm trying to raise and work and sing songs and dance. And I would go home to Vivian Baxter. She would act as if the best thing that had ever happened, she'd call her friends.

'姐妹你绝对想不到，宝宝回家啦！我要给她做最爱的西班牙烩饭听着——'

Girl, you can't bet you can't believe it. The baby is home. I'm gonna cook this for her. She loves Spanish rice. I'm gonna cook that for listen.

'别急着过来，我要独占她至少三四个小时，之后你们再来。'她从未让我觉得自己做错了什么。

Don't try to come over. I'm gonna have her to myself for at least three or four hours. Then you can come over. She never, ever made me feel that I had done the wrong thing.

是啊，即便你16岁怀孕时，她也没有让你感到羞耻。

I know, and even at 16 when you became pregnant, she did not shame you.

她没说'我们要'

She Not said, We're

'迎来这个美丽的宝宝了'

gonna have this beautiful baby.

没错。她问我：'你知道孩子父亲是谁吗？'我说：'知道，我只和他发生过一次关系，但他是唯一的一个。'她说：'那好。'

That's right. She asked me, she said, Do you know who the father is? I said, Yes. I only had sex with him one time, but and he's the only one. She said, All right.

你爱他吗？我说，不爱。她又问我，那他爱你吗？我说，不爱。她说，我们不会毁掉三个人的人生。

Do you love him? I said, No. She said asked me, Does he love you? I said, No. She said, We're not gonna ruin three lives.

我们将迎来一个漂亮的宝宝。哇。是的，她做到了。哇。而且她深爱我的儿子。

We're going to have a beautiful baby. Wow. Yes, she did. Wow. And she loved my son.

没错。她是个绝代佳人，薇薇安·巴克斯特。

Yes. She was a knockout, Vivian Baxter.

她确实风华绝代。告诉我，你一直是我最伟大的老师。那谁是你最伟大的老师？

She was a knockout. Tell me this. You've been my greatest teacher. Who's been your greatest teacher?

大概是我祖母，还有真的吗？我的

Probably my grandmother and Really? My

你最伟大的老师们。

Your greatest teachers.

我最伟大的老师们。我观察过亨德森祖母，也观察过薇薇安·巴克斯特。每当有人试图贬低她时，薇薇安·巴克斯特就会爆发出惊人的怒火。而同一个女人却又如此温柔。我这辈子从未见过像她这般美丽的女人。

My greatest teachers. I watched Grandmother Henderson, and I watched Vivian Baxter. Vivian Baxter with this incredible, anger whenever anybody tried to do her down. This same woman was so kind. I never in my life she was very pretty.

她从不嘲笑任何人。从来没有。我喜欢她这点。嗯哼。因为她拥有一切。

She never laughed at anybody. Ever. I liked that in her. Uh-huh. Because she had everything.

她有钱，有美貌，还有健康。但她从不嘲笑任何人。

She had money, she had beauty and health. And she never laughed at anybody.

而你从不认为自己是个漂亮姑娘。

And you didn't think of yourself as a pretty girl.

哦，不，我那时不算漂亮女孩。那些漂亮姑娘留着长发，皮肤白皙，而我个子太高了。我有六英尺十五英寸。

Oh, no, I wasn't a pretty girl. There were pretty girls who had long hair, fair skin and And I was so tall. I was six foot fifteen.

那么你当时是如何学会爱自己的呢？

So how did you learn to love yourself at that time?

嗯，贝利爱我。我祖母爱我，我母亲也爱我。

Well, Bailey loved me. My grandmother loved me, and my mother loved me.

因为你写的另一本书里有首诗说，没有人能独自成功。

Because another book that you wrote that's a poem, nobody makes it alone.

没有人，绝对没有人能

Nobody but nobody makes

独自成功 在这里没有人能

it Nobody out here here makes

而这就是爱如何治愈的方式。家人的爱，一个人的爱可以治愈那些庞大强权社会留下的伤痕与创伤。

And it that's how that's how how love heals. The love of the family, the love of one person can heal so it heals the scars left, wounds left by a larger society, a massive, powerful society.

你说言语的力量如此强大。那么，你会用哪些话语来寻求慰藉？

You say words of things and that they're so powerful. So, what words do you turn to for comfort?

爱。再说一次，你看，我指的是人类灵魂深处那种深刻到能让我们宽恕的境界。它或许是维系星辰于苍穹的能量。

Love. And again, see, I don't mean I think love is that condition in the human spirit so profound that it allows us to forgive. And it may be the energy which keeps the stars in the firmament.

是的。

Yes.

我不确定。或许是那股让血液在我们血管中顺畅流动的能量。我不确定。但它超越了常理解释。它可以用于任何你能解释的事物。

I'm not sure. It may be the energy which keeps the blood running smoothly through our veins. I'm not sure. But it's something beyond the explanation. It can be used for anything you can explain.

任何你能解释的美好事物。

Any good thing you can explain.

完全同意。是的，女士。您去哪里寻求慰藉和安慰？有没有您会阅读的书籍，或者当玛雅·安杰卢需要安慰时，

Absolutely. Yes, ma'am. Where do you go for solace, for comfort? Are there books that you read or When Maya Angelou needs comforting,

是啊，您用什么方式呢？我是合一学派的学生。有本书叫《合一教堂》吗？合一教堂。大约两年前我在线上修了一门合一学的课程。

yeah, what do you use? I'm a student of unity. And there's a book called The Unity Church? Unity Church. I took a course in unity about two years ago online.

不是为了成为会员或牧师，只是为了更深入地理解。有本书叫《真理课程》。哇。书中有句话写着‘上帝爱我’。当我读给我当时的导师弗雷德里克·威尔克森——已故的弗雷德里克·威尔克森听时，我读到‘上帝爱我’。

Not to become a member, a minister, but just to understand more deeply. There's a book called Lessons in Truth. Wow. And in the book there's a line which is God loves me. And when I came to read it to my then mentor, Frederick Wilkerson, the late Frederick Wilkerson, I read God loves me.

他说，再读一遍。我说，上帝爱我。他说，再读一遍。再读一遍。最后我说，上帝爱我。

And he said, Read it again. And I said, God loves me. He said, Read it again. Read it again. And finally, I said, God loves me.

这股创造了树叶、跳蚤、星辰、河流和你的力量竟然爱我，至今仍让我感到谦卑。爱我，玛雅·安杰卢。这太不可思议了。我能做任何事并且做好它。任何美好的事，我都能做到。

It still humbles me that this force, which made leaves and fleas and stars and rivers and you, loves me. Me, Maya Angelou. It's amazing. I can do anything and do it well. Any good thing, I can do it.

这就是我成为我的原因。是的。因为上帝爱我，我对此感到惊奇并心怀感激。

That's why I am who I am. Yes. Because God loves me, and I'm amazed at it and grateful for it.

您是否像我一样感受到祖先的庇佑？您是否感受到

Do you feel carried by the ancestors as I do? Do you feel carried by the

是的，绝对如此。

Yeah, absolutely.

是的。上周我们聊到你的冠冕已为你备好，戴在头上，佩戴它时。对。你是否感受到...是的。你是否感受到你的祖母，以及她之前的母亲...对，她和曾祖母的存在。

Yeah. When you said, when we talked last week about your crown has been paid for, put it on your head and wear it. Yeah. Do you feel Yes. Do you feel that your grandmother and her mother before Yes, her and great grandmother.

你...谁...

Do you Who

曾生而为奴。

have feel been born a slave.

你生而为奴。是否觉得她们在支撑着你？

You've been born a slave. Do you feel that you're carried by them?

毫无疑问。我对她们负有责任。无论身处何方，当我站在万人舞台时，我的曾祖母就与我同在。

Absolutely. And I'm responsible to them. So wherever I am, I stand on the stage in front of 10,000 people. My great grandmother stands there with me.

这正是祖母犹太人那首诗里的句子，我最爱的诗句之一。'孤身而来，却以十人之姿屹立'——天啊，我内心曾多次用这句话激励自己。

That's the line in the poem Grandmother is a Jew wrote, one of my favorites. Come as one, Oh, but I stand as 10 gosh, have I used that line for myself internally on many occasions.

是的，因为这就是你的本质。

Yes, because that's who you are.

我多次默诵这句话：'孤身而来，却以...'

I've recited that to myself many times. I come as one, but I stand

'十人之姿屹立'正是如此。你...

And as 10 that's it. The You

这力量。正是如此。是的，女士。要知道我们从不孤单。

force of that. That's it. Yes, ma'am. Know that none of us are alone.

不，从来没有。

No, ever.

因为已经有人替你付过了。

Because you've been paid for.

已经付过了。感谢上帝。

Already. Thank the Lord.

今年二月你72岁时，我为杂志采访你，问你是否认为自己睿智，当时你回答：嗯，我正在路上。

In February, when you were 72, I interviewed you for the magazine and I asked you if you considered yourself wise and at the time you answered, Well, I'm en route.

确实如此。

That's true.

那现在你会怎么回答呢？

And how would you answer that now?

我仍在路上。比从前走得更远，但依然在路上。我不知道何时才算足够。我明白自己懂得很多，对此心怀感激。我所知的已足够践行所知。

I'm en route. I'm further along than But I I'm still en route. I don't know when I know enough. I know I know a lot, and I'm grateful for that. I know enough to try to live what I know.

这已经很了不起了。

Now, that's a lot.

哇，这确实很了不起。

Woah, that's a lot.

但我仍未参透一切。

But I still don't have it all.

玛雅·安杰卢，你认为你、所有引用你的人、我引用你然后他们又引用我的人，你觉得你给出的最好建议是什么？嗯，

What do you think that you, Maya Angelou, everybody who quotes you and I quote you and then they quote me do you and all, what do you think is the best piece of advice you've given? Well,

我在想，我希望我曾给出的最好建议，是在我儿子成长时期告诉他的。他说，我没有朋友。我怎样才能交到朋友？虽然我当时很年轻，但我告诉了他两件事。我说，要得到朋友，你必须先成为朋友。

I'm thinking that the best advice I've ever given, I hope, was that which I gave to my son when he was growing up. He said, I don't have any friends. How can I get some friends? And although I was very young, I told him two things. I told him, in order to get a friend, you have to be a friend.

准备好去成为朋友。同时我还告诉他，你内心必须保留一块不可侵犯的净土。你必须保持它的纯净、清洁，这样任何人都无权辱骂你、虐待你。任何人都不行。没有母亲、父亲，没有妻子、丈夫，没有任何人。

Be ready to be a friend. And also, I told him, there's a place in you that you must keep inviolate. You must keep it pristine, clean, so that nobody has the right to curse you up, treat you badly. Nobody. No mother, father, no wife, no husband, no nobody.

因为那可能是你遇见上帝时要前往的地方。你必须有一个地方，在那里你可以直接说，停下。退后。这里不行。绝不允许。

Because that may be the place you go to when you meet God. You have to have a place where they just say, Stop it. Back up. Not here. Must not know.

不。绝对不行。这是我二十五年前告诉你的。-是的。-当拒绝时就说不。

No. Absolutely. And that's one I told you twenty five years ago. -Yes. -Say no when it's no.

-没错。-说出来。坚持立场。因为那个地方必须保持干净和清晰。

-Yeah. -Say so. Back it up. Because that place has to remain clean and clear.

-那必须是你自己内心的一个地方。

-And that has to be a place within yourself.

-是的，女士。-对。

-Yes, ma'am. -Yeah.

那是最好的建议。我知道所有观众都会说，当人们向你展示他们是谁时，相信他们。那也非常好。

That is the best advice. I know everybody who's watching is going to say, When people show you who they are, believe them. That's also very good.

现在这个建议很好。

It is good now.

是啊。但没有什么比得上内心那个只属于你自己的地方，别人无权干涉，对吧？

Yeah. But nothing tops having the place inside yourself that nobody else Nobody else, No. Has a right right? To

没错。当有人用粗鲁或冒犯的言语对待你时，你必须能够说：退后。不是说我不好惹。难道你不知道我是上帝的孩子吗？

Yes. And when the person comes with rude language to you, or invasive language to you, you have to be able to say, Back up. Not mean you don't. I'm Don't you know I'm a child of God?

你收到过最好的建议是什么？

What is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten?

太多好建议了。

So many good things.

我知道。

I know.

嗯。我想最好的建议是学会原谅。我不给它附加任何条件，就是单纯地原谅。

Yeah. I guess the greatest advice is to forgive. I don't anoint it with anything. I just forgive it.

但我们不都原谅了吗？我在节目里试图让人们明白，正如你多年来教导我的，原谅某人并不意味着你要坐下来邀请他们共进晚餐。不不不。

But don't we forgive? I've tried to let people know on this show, as you have taught me over the years, that when you forgive somebody doesn't mean you want to sit down and invite them to your table. No, no, no, no.

当然不是。我只是说我与你两清了。走开。是的，你走开。我不是说让你去伤害别人，但我必须保护自己。

Indeed not. I just mean I'm finished with you. Go away. Yes, you go away. Now, I don't say go away and harm somebody else, but I do have to protect myself.

如果我让别人来保护我，而自己却不愿保护自己，那我看起来就像个保姆。

I look like a nanny if I ask somebody else to protect me, and I'm not willing to protect myself.

是啊，这也是你教给我的重要一课。你必须先照顾好自己。

Yeah, that's one of the great lessons that you've taught me too. You've to be willing to take care of this first.

是的，女士。

Yes ma'am.

那你就足够对其他女士说“是”了。你对上帝的定义是什么？哦。

Then you have enough to give Yes to other ma'am. What is your definition of God? Oh.

一切。如果有人要我用一个词定义上帝，那就是“一切”，a l l。我喜欢这个定义。没有上帝不在的地方。监狱里没有，唱诗班的阁楼上没有，我跪着的地方也没有。

All. If I was asked, say it in your definition of god in one word, it would be all, a l l. I love that. There is no place that god is not. No place in the prison, in the choir loft, on my knees.

上帝就在那里。

God is right there.

上帝是一切。通往他的道路有很多吗？

God is all. Are there many ways to get to him?

我想是的，有多少种方式就有多少条路。绝对是这样。就像通往罗马的条条大路。但所有的路都通向上帝。

I think so, as many ways as there are. Absolutely. Like the ways the highways that go to Rome. But all roads lead to God.

是的。你认为人死后会发生什么？

Yes. What do you believe happens when you die?

哦，我会回归一切。

Oh, I go back to all.

我以为你说会回归一切？是的。

I thought You go back to all? Yes.

我现在充满敬畏。我只是回归敬畏。

I'm in awe right now. I just go back to awe.

回归敬畏之心。

Go back to awe.

是的，这只是另一种体验敬畏的方式。

Yeah, it's another trans it's just another way of being in awe.

没错，这非常有趣，因为你是第一个让我真正明白这一点的人——敬畏有无数层次。你说大家都以为只有一种方式，但并非只有一扇门。有多少人就有多少扇门，门很多，人也很多。

Yes, and it's so interesting, because you're the first person that said to me, in a way I really got, that there are as many levels. You said everybody thinks that there's just one way. There's not just one gate. There's as many gates as there are people. There's many gates and there are people.

然后埃本·亚历山大医生的《天堂的证据》这本书里，他谈到了所有不同的、多元的...

And then Doctor. Eben Alexander's book, Proof of Heaven, he talks about all of the different, multiple

正是如此。完全正确。

Exactly. Exactly.

顺便说，我超爱那本书。

I love that book, by the way.

哇。

Wow.

后来在《超灵周日》节目上看到他，简直让我震惊不已。

And then to find and to see him on Super Soul just knocked my socks off.

太神奇了。你怎么定义灵魂？它是什么？灵魂究竟是什么？

Amazing. What do you call the soul? What is it? What is the soul? The

灵魂是渴望与万物合一的灵性存在。这种灵性通过自身创造蓝调、福音音乐、流行乐和嘻哈音乐。正是这种渴望的灵性在说：让我表达些能帮助我、引领我融入万物的东西。无论是妮基·乔瓦尼、索尼娅·桑切斯、威廉·莎士比亚、玛雅·安杰卢还是尤金·雷德蒙德的诗篇。我写诗就是为了更接近万物。

soul is a spirit which longs for all. And that spirit then uses itself to create the blues and gospel music and pop music and hip hop. It's that spirit that longs, that says, Let me say something which will help me, lead me to all. Whether the poetry is the poetry of Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, or William Shakespeare, or Maya Angelou, Eugene Redmond. The poetry, I write it so I can get closer to all.

让我讲述如此多的真相，而非事实，因为事实可能掩盖真相。嗯。你向那些地方、那些人、那些时刻、那些原因等等讲述太多事实，却从未触及真相。所以我希望在我的作品中揭示真相。

Let me tell so much truth, not facts, because facts can obscure the truth. Mhmm. You tell so many facts to places where the people who times when the reasons why blah, blah, blah. Never getting to the truth. So I want to tell the truth in my work.

这将引领我更接近万物。

And it will help me lead me closer to all.

你是否记得雷恩·威尔逊在《超级灵魂星期日》中说过，艺术是另一种形式的祈祷？-当然。-是的，你也这么认为吗？

And is do you see I remember Rainn Wilson was on Super Soul Sunday, and he said that art is another form of prayer. -Of course. -Yeah, do you see that, too?

-正是。-没错。这就是为什么你要尽力说出正确、真实、美好的话语。因为作为艺术家，你正在借助神性本身来接近上帝。哦，是的。

-Exactly. -Yes. And that's why you try your best to say the right thing, the true thing, the good thing. Because you're an artist and you're using God itself to help you to get to God. Oh, yes.

你如何定义灵性与宗教的区别？

How do you define spirituality versus religion?

哦，宗教就像一张地图。它可以帮助你看到如何到达想去的地方。它只是指引你如何抵达，仅此而已。

Oh, religion is like a map. You know, it can help you to see how to get where you want to go. All it does is show you how to get there. It's only a map.

明白了。那对你而言灵性意味着什么？

Yeah. And spirituality for you means?

哦，是臣服。我将一切臣服于万物。

Oh, surrender. I surrender all to all.

祈祷对你意味着什么？

What does prayer mean to you?

感谢。

Thank you.

哦，我知道你是个虔诚祈祷的女人。

Oh, I know you're a praying woman.

我是个虔诚祈祷的女人。

I am a praying woman.

你是个虔诚祈祷的女人。

You are a praying woman.

是的，我是。

Yes, I am.

没错。所以当你对我说，你曾多次告诉我，你在为我祈祷并与我一同祈祷时，我就知道一切都会好起来的。我知道。我确信。

Yeah. So, when you say to me, there have been times you've said to me, I'm praying for you and I'm praying with you, I know I'm going to be all right. I know. I know.

这会改变一切。

It changes things.

是啊，而且你与神相连。是的，确实如此。

Yeah, and you're connected. Yes, am.

我为此感谢上帝。我知道当我祈祷时，奇妙的事情不仅会发生在被祈祷者身上，同样也会降临于我。我感恩自己的心声能被听见。

And I thank God for that. I know that when I pray, something wonderful happens, not just to the person, a person for whom I'm praying, but also something wonderful happens to me. I'm grateful that I'm heard.

因为你知道祂聆听一切。

Because you know all hears it all.

我明白了。

I see.

你在哪里感到最自在或内心最平静？

Where do you feel most at home or at peace with yourself?

与我自己同在，在我自己之中。无论何时，只要我回归本心。也就是说，与你相处时我很平静。面对四万部摄像机的包围我也很平静。这都没问题。

With myself, in myself. Always, when I'm in myself. That is to say, I'm at peace with you. I'm at peace with 40,000 cameras looming around. That's fine.

在我的巴士上我很平静。站在观众面前我也很平静，就像几周前我在万人面前那样。只要我确信自己以上帝为中心，我生活、行动、存在，我就安然无恙。

I'm at peace in my bus. I'm at peace standing in front of an audience as I did a couple of weeks ago for 10,000 people. I'm at peace. Once I know I am centered in God, I live and move and have my being, I'm alright, Jack. I'm alright.

当然当我迷失时——人偶尔都会迷失，这是人之常情——虽然不幸但确实会发生。那时信仰动摇溜走，那一刻的我既危险又身处险境。是的。

Now when I lose it, as you do lose it from time to time, it is human, I think. It's unfortunate, but there we are. So faith trembles and skids away. And so for that moment, I I'm I'm dangerous, and I'm in danger. Yes.

但只要我宣告'我生活、行动、存在都在于上帝'，我就好了。谢谢你。我...

But as soon as I make the statement, in God I live and move and have my being, I'm fine. I thank you. I'm And

我用这个...我用这个来平复自己。这是我的生活真言。是的，在所有艰难...

I use that for I use that to calm myself. That is my living mantra Yes, for Yeah. For in all difficult

处境中。是的，女士。而且...

situations Yes, ma'am. And

在顺境时我也用'我生活行动都在于上帝'。

in also good ones, I use, In God, I move and have.

因为当你在顺境中使用它，上天会喜悦，因为它知道你明白顺境源自于它。

Because when you use it in good times, the all is pleased because it knows that you know that your good times are because of it.

是的，正是如此。

Yes. That's right.

是的。所以，你只是在说谢谢。

Yes. That's So, you're just saying thank you.

谢谢你。那么玛雅·安杰卢，你确切知道的是什么？

Thank you. And what do you know for sure, Maya Angelou?

我确切地知道爱拯救了我，它在这里是为了拯救我们所有人。我知道它是一种感知。它比空气更贴近我们，比听觉更响亮。我知道它。我知道我们可以置身其中。

I know for sure that love saves me and that it is here to save us all. I know it's a sense. It's more close to us than air, more loud to us than hearing. I know it. I know that we can sit in it.

是的，爱，亲爱的。你知道我这么说并不是指很多，或者任何我指的不是浪漫。

Yes, love, honey. And you know by that I don't mean much, or any I don't mean romance.

也不是多愁善感。不。那不是。

Or sentimentality. No. That do not.

不，我指的是某种力量，它能唤醒死者。

No, I mean something is so it can raise the dead.

能唤醒死者？

Can raise the dead?

是的，女士。它能移山。我知道它能。我还没做到，但我确信无疑，就像我坐在这里一样确定。

Yes, ma'am. It can make a mountain move. I know it. I haven't done it, but I know it as surely as I'm sitting here.

嗯，这就是你一直以来给我的。

Well, that's what you've given to me always.

谢谢你，亲爱的。我爱你，你知道的。谢谢你。

Thank you, my darling. I love you and you know it. Thank you.

我是奥普拉·温弗瑞，您正在收听的是《超级灵魂对话》播客节目。您可以在Instagram、Twitter和Facebook上关注超级灵魂。如果还未订阅，请前往苹果播客订阅、评分并评论本节目。下周请继续加入我，参与另一场超级灵魂对话。

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.

感谢您的收听。

Thank you for listening.